PS2 Price May Fall, Gamecube Staying Put

mrquackers writes: "Looks like the price war in the console gaming world is starting a bit early. With Microsoft expected to announce a drop in the price of the Xbox to $199 next Monday at E3, Sony's rumored to be cutting PlayStation 2 prices as early as tomorrow. Meanwhile, Nintendo says it won't be making ANY price cuts before or during the show -- though it's not ruling one out for later in the year." Update: 05/14 18:01 GMT by T : An anonymous reader points out this CNN story indicating that the PS2 cut is official.

Comments

It's Official

[NetGuruFL]

http://www.gamers.com/news/1147215

Even the PS One is getting a price cut to $50 :)

Re:It's Official

[NetGuruFL]

Fixed link for the lazy

Re:It's Official

[muffen]

To save people from having to do the awful copy/paste job, here it is as a proper link :)

Re:It's Official

[AlastairMurray]

The other week I could buy a PS1 for £20 sterling (roughly 30$ US) locally.

But the really interesting part of the story..

[phaze3000]

Are that the ethernet and 56k modem adaptors will be sold for just $34.95 each. Nintendo were looking as thought they weren't going to bring these out previously so this is damn good news - finally PSO without loads of hacked-up charecters (hopefully...)

Re:But the really interesting part of the story..

[Troed]

Agreed - and also the fact that Nintendo won't lock the consumers into their own subscription service! It's up to the game-developers to do whatever they wish. This bodes well for public, free, multiplayer servers!

Re:But the really interesting part of the story..

[unclelib]

I've got a few computers behind an linksys router that I use to share my cable modem internet connection. Does anyone know if the broadband adapters for these console systems will work behind a router?

Re:But the really interesting part of the story..

[Gaijinator]

I can't say for sure, but I bet they would, provided the servers aren't just slapped-together pieces of crap. I'm sure Nintendo realizes that most people using the broadband adaptors will be using a router of some sort. DHCP may pose complications if the leases are really short, however...

Re:But the really interesting part of the story..

[phaze3000]

I only have a PS2 one (it's actually just a USB network adaptor), but that certainally works fine behind a NAT'd connection.

MicroSofts downfall

[dingo]

You know I think this hails the begining of the end for microsoft.
No matter how big you are you just cannot indefinately lose hundreds of dollars on consoles.
Anyone with any idea of market forces will be able to confirm this. Esspecially when you are trying to "break into" the market and you dont have a wide base of customers like sony do.

Mind you consumers are gaining in the meantime so whos complaining

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[yatest5]

No matter how big you are you just cannot indefinately lose hundreds of dollars on consoles.
Anyone with any idea of market forces will be able to confirm this.

And anyone with any idea of the console market would realise you only make the loss on consoles you sell (- stock) and that the whole basis of the market is to lose money on the console to claw it back on the games. But don't let that get in the way of your ms-bashing!

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[vitalidea]

You know I think this hails the begining of the end for microsoft. No matter how big you are you just cannot indefinately lose hundreds of dollars on consoles.

Uhh... Micro$oft has over $400 billion in cash!! That should probably allow them enough time in cash losing to take Nintendo and Sony out of the gaming biz. Worked for Home Depot...

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[ringbarer]

Mind you consumers are gaining in the meantime so whos complaining

If the X-Box is responsible for one thing, it's being the catalyst for console prices to drop dramatically at a faster rate than previous generations.

As consoles are sold at a loss anyway, getting more into gamers' homes can only be a good thing, right? At this rate, I can probably afford two different consoles, and have more choice with what I play. This is good, right?

Hell, I may even treat myself to a PSOne at that price.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[monkeymanjack]

But they were already losing money on their consoles, to the point where they said it would take a few years to break even on software sales, now they're kicking it up so they'll be losing a lot more on their consoles. I think that's the point he was trying to make, but what do I know. I'm just MS-bashing.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Osty]

And yet, Microsoft has had a phenomenal attach rate, much higher than the PS2 had even months after its launch. Let's do the math. Assume at $200, the XBox is losing $150 (the commonly quoted (but unconfirmed) numbers were losing $100 at $300, but six months after the launch, we can assume that production costs have started to go down so that this price drop won't be losing a full $200). If the XBox has an attach rate of 4 games at purchase (assume $50 each, Microsoft would make say $15 on 3rd party titles, $40 on 1st party, also assume 2 of these are Microsoft titles), plus three controllers at $50 a piece (say, $30 back to Microsoft) because halo's great fun with four players, another $30 for the DVD kit (say, $15 back to MS), and $20 ($10 to MS) for advanced connectors (S-Video or component video and digital audio). That's $15 * 2 + $40 * 2 + $30 * 3 + $15 + $10 = $225, or a $75 profit on the sale of the XBox and attached games and peripherals.

My numbers may be off, but the point here is to show that, even though the XBox console itself is sold at a loss, a profit can still be made. And a profit very likely is being made, because it's already been shown that the XBox is attaching very well (and the recent price drops in Europe et al have actually increased the attach rate of new XBoxes -- do a google search).

And just as a preemptive strike against those who would invoke the Gord on me, I'm linking there already. He's a PS2 fanboy, and a funny author, but his maths don't add up.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

its 40 billion not 400 billion. 400 billion constitutes M$ net worth.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Tazzy531]

Just look at the cell phone market. They give away $50+ cellphones for free to people that sign up. Their business model is working. The console market has been doing this for ages, it's not something that MS decided to do to this market.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Troed]

Especially since there's 2-3 modchips out now for the Xbox - and a lot of people (including myself) will buy it as a cheap PC that can play DivX, SVCD, mp3, old emulators, browse the web etc in front of my TV.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[linzeal]

Microsoft is somehow making it possible for you to have a choice in somethin besides microsoft?

Don't worry, the DOJ heard you and is going to take all neccesary steps to prevent that from occuring again, good day.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Ayon Rantz]

...plus three controllers at $50 a piece (say, $30 back to Microsoft)

You forget that anyone with an iota of sense will buy the vastly superiour PS2 controllers and a couple of these (I wanted to link to Lik-Sang but they seem not to stock them anymore for some reason... An MS conspiracy? ;)). Meaning the XBox will actually put more money in Sony's pockets :P

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[wheany]

Except that not nearly everyone who bought an Xbox bought 4 games and controllers. I don't know what the official numbers are, but I doubt people have bought more than two games, and maybe one extra controller on average. And I'm pretty sure that even fewer people have bought the special AV-cables. The DVD kits are probably a little more popular than the spcial cables, but I'd say that neither the cables nor the DVD-kits have sold nearly as much as the console itself.

I'd say it's more like 2.25 games, 0.75 extra controllers, 0.25 DVD kits and 0.1 special cables per console. These are off the top of my head, so they could be totally wrong...

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Osty]

You forget that anyone with an iota of sense will buy the vastly superiour PS2 controllers and a couple of these

Or not. Just speaking from personal experience, the XBox controller (the large, original US one -- I haven't had a chance to try the new, smaller S/Japanese version yet) is the most comfortable console controller I've used. The PS2 controller is exactly the same as the PSOne controller, styling-wise, and those controllers always cramped my hands (I don't have especially large or small hands, btw). Just to round out the bunch, the GameCube controller feels like it took the worst of the PS2 (tiny size, flimsy design) and the N64 (oddly-placed buttons) and combined them into the single worst controller I've ever used.

The only people I know who have actually tried the XBox controller and had a problem with it were using it on one of the store displays, where the controller is locked into an uncomfortable position. These controllers were designed to fit well into your hand while reclining comfortably on your couch (thus the extra-long cords). If you've not tried an XBox controller in such a scenario, I suggest you try it. Play for a couple hours, and then see how you like it. Unless you have extremely small hands, I'll bet you'll end up preferring the XBox controller. It fits well in your hand, gives you easy access to the main controls, feels like a good sturdy power tool rather than a flimsy piece of plastic, and doesn't leave you all cramped up after an extended playing session.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[jsse]

No matter how big you are you just cannot indefinately lose hundreds of dollars on consoles.

No, not really. I did help in some Nintendo's game development about 7-10 years ago here is the figure(roughly, may vary in other place):

Game development kit: US$200,000.00
License to develop a game(including NDA your company need to sign): US$13,000.00
After you developed the game and made the mother chip, you need to send the chip back to Nintendo for mass product. They will send the result chips back to you. (Yes, you don't own it, you buy back the chips from Nintendo) Cost to buy back the chips (minimal 5000 a bulk) is approx.: $20x5000 = US$100,000.00
Not to mention the cost to package, market and promote your production. You must pay a certain amount of money to Nintendo if you care to market it(loyality fee, and fee to use the trademark something). Cost = unknown, depend on the scale and market.

In the process they earned at least US$313,000 excluding marketing. If the sales is good they will get part of your revenue - don't forget, you don't own the product you made, they own it. You were just given the right to market and sell it. :/

My friends and I left the field because it's too hard for same game development company to survive. I believe things has changed now, but the business model is more or less the same(anyone would update me?).

So, don't think they'd ever lose money selling console cheap. :)

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Ayon Rantz]

My hands are actually larger than average, and I still much prefer the PS2/PSX controller - I even got myself a converter similar to the one I mentioned for my PC, because I found most PC gamepads either too big and clunky (Logitech, MS) or too flimsy (cheaper brands).

And I'm afraid that contrary to you all reports I've heard from people using the XBox controller in any scenario have been very negative - a couple even to the point that they won't buy the console just because they dislike the controllers so much.

Maybe it's only because I'm European, but it seems like some Americans agree.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw some figures fom the australian market where xbox prices have already dropped to $AU 400 (~$US 200). Console sales have risen significantly but there is only something like a 1.8 game attachment rate which includes the 2 free games exisiting owners were given for free.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[ihoppancakes]

You mean the 40-70 percent increase in sales the MS PR folk have been trying to fill the news with?

a very small number * 40-70percent + a very small number = a very small number

No, MS, marketing won't save your dead console.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[cowboy junkie]

No matter how big you are you just cannot indefinately lose hundreds of dollars on consoles.

Six months is hardly an eternity, and you're talking about a company that has more cash to spend than any other. I personally think the Xbox's long-term prospects will be decided during the next holiday season. If the games are there and the online portion shows promising results, the MS will keep pouring cash into it. They *really* want into this market.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[byran lei]

>And anyone with any idea of the console market would realise you only
>make the loss on consoles you sell (- stock) and that the whole basis
>of the market is to lose money on the console to claw it back on the
>games. But don't let that get in the way of your ms-bashing!
>
Too bad Sony proves you wrong. But since when did PC gamers like you *EVER* had a clue concering the console market? You people never did,otherwise you would've never jumped onboard the XBox bandwagon, which is/was nothing but a lame effort to bring crappy ports of crappy PC games to a market which had mostly abandoned the PC as a gaming platform.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[tubs]

And anyone with any idea of the console market would realise you only make the loss on consoles you sell (- stock) and that the whole basis of the market is to lose money on the console to claw it back on the games. But don't let that get in the way of your ms-bashing!

Is this really true? Do the companies make a loss on the physical box - ie the cost of the componants is more than the retail price of the box?

I assumed they made a loss if they included R&D, ie if a box took 100million to design, until enough profit is made to cover that 100million they are selling at a loss.

So how much do Sony etc, actually get per game sold? Is it pennies or pounds?

I personally think they make a profit on the boxes plus they get thier cut from the games as well.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[duren686]

Sony did what to who now? They've been selling consoles at a loss since the PSX, just like every other company.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[deepstephen]

No matter how big you are you just cannot indefinately lose hundreds of dollars on consoles.

This is a lot like what contributed to the downfall of ITV Digital here in the UK.

Rupert Murdoch owns Sky, the satellite TV network that was competing with ITV Digital. Sky started giving away their set-top boxes for free, so naturally ITV Digital had to follow suit in order to stay competitive.

Both networks were losing money hand over fist by doing this, and it was just a case of Sky having a bigger pile of cash to burn that meant they stayed alive longer.

Now ask yourself: who's got the biggest cash pile here? Microsoft or Sony? Exactly.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Psiren]

Actually that business model is not as good as it once once. Certainly over here in the UK, over 65% of the population own mobile phones, so there is already market saturation. Also, the big players now have huge debts after paying stupendous amounts of money for the 3G licenses. Phone prices are increasing now, not decreasing.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[-brazil-]

That's a pretty strange definition of "selling at a loss" you have there. No, it is indeed the case that most consoles cost more (parts+assembly+distribution) than they are sold for, at least early on. Profits are made by licensing games. That's perfectly normal. But with the Xbox, this loss was already there when it was retailing for $299, and further lowering of the price could mean that Microsoft will *never* be able to recoup the loss.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[rseuhs]

Exactly.

The XBox will hurt Microsoft badly. Not only financially (where it is a desaster already, how much do they lose @ 200$ sales price?) but more importantly, they will lose their image of automatically succeeding and setting standards.

How often do people by MS because "it's the standard" or "it will become the standard"? Well the latter reason could evaporate because the XBox demonstrates that MS-technologies do not automatically become standards.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[YE]

Microsoft makes $9 from each third-party title, not $15.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Troed]

SORRY

That wasn't the link, this is the one I was meant to post.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[rseuhs]

He's a PS2 fanboy, and a funny author, but his maths don't add up.

Your's neihter:

You assume everybody buys 3 controllers (!). Maybe one is appropriate. Royalties on games on the XBox is 8 - 9$ AFAIK, which is more than on any other console but still a lot less than 15$ you quoted. Also they are giving away games to people who bought at the expensive price, so your 4 games per console is also very optimistic.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

"You know I think this hails the begining of the end for microsoft."

You know, I KNOW you're ignorant. Your comments are based on what you would like to see, not based on reality.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Dark Paladin]

I find the whole "people buying more games for the Xbox when it first came out than the PS2" argument to be silly.

Most of the initial "Xbox purchases" were forced bundles. If you wanted an Xbox on launch date here in the US, most places would not sell you one without buying their bundle of 3 games and an extra controller.

Compare to the PS2, which shipped as was (with a DVD player, backwards compatible to the PSOne). They didn't have to force bundle, because Sony knew they would just have to bide their time.

What's happened since then? 10 million PS2's sold in the US, 30 million worldwide, and Sony still ruling the roost by having more games out there, and more sales of games than the Xbox.

I'm not saying the Xbox is a bad system, but I will say it's a poorly managed one. Their decision not to allow simple USB connections for the keyboard/mouse I think is a bad idea (I want to use a keyboard to enter my ripped CD titles, and online play without a keyboard? Forgetaboutit.), thier "pay for broadband" is going to bite them in the ass with Nintendo stating their Ethernet/Modem controllers will work with your own ISP (aka - no fee), and their (admitted - arguable) lack of more than 3 or 4 good, exclusive titles compared to the big N and the PS2 is going to keep hurting them.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[rseuhs]

Sorry, to reply a second time, but to illustrate how far off your numbers are:

You assume that EVERY XBox owner invests

300 + 4 * 60 + 3 * 50 + 30 + 20 = 740$

in his XBox.

If that's not far off, I don't know what is.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Zathrus]

Uh, have you seen the problems the telecomms have been in for the past year?

The cell phone market isn't working very well anymore... most of the companies don't give away phones anymore, because they realized they really can't afford to do this with an 80% annual churn rate (after 1 year 80% of customers drop service).

Most of them are bleeding green all over the floor and don't know how to stop it.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, Microsoft is leads the console market in the UK, France, and Germany. Keep watching, you're about to learn a lesson, boy.

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002may/bga200 20 509011621.htm

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[iapetus]

If the X-Box is responsible for one thing, it's being the catalyst for console prices to drop dramatically at a faster rate than previous generations.

A good point, except for the fact that PS2 has probably gone longer without a price cut than any console in the last three generations. The E3 price cut was expected and probably wasn't driven by Microsoft - the exact timing, however, almost certainly was.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[laserjet]

Yes, you are correct. I actually went to the store to probably buy an Xbox, then they told me I would need to buy 3 games + Controller to buy one. I immediatley said "Damn Microsoft and its evil tactics!" and didn't buy one and never will. The main thing I wanted one for was to play GTA3, but it looks like it will be out on the PC before the Xbox anyways.

It's almost like you walk into a store, and if you want an Xbox, they take you to a back room, put a blindfold on you, and tell you to bend over. Then, when you feel that 18 inches wringling up your pant leg, you KNOW you shouldn't have chosen microsof, but it's too late. You just take your raping and get on with it.

well, not me. I haven't bought anything Microsoft in a while, and am tired of the "little extas" that Microsoft throws in.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Locutus]

Microsoft has not done well at all in anything that they have NOT been able to leverage the Windows monopoly. The Xbox will be the same though they could pre-install MS Office and effectively start attacking their OEM's with the Xbox-PC.

Their growth rate is stalling (Linux eats large chunks of server sales) and they are spreading tenticles out all over to find another place to control. Like I said before, they have a VERY bad record outside of the Windows monopoly. IMHO.

LoB

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[laserjet]

That is interesting. I believe you, but do you know of any research that says what the actual churn rate it? I know I like to cancel my service within the first year. I always see a better deal. Now, I get a cell phone with no contract so I can jump ship at any time.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not true. By this time in the lifespan of the original PlayStation, Sony had already cut the price.

I'm not talking out my ass here... I looked this up a while back because i was wondering the same thing. I forget the specifics, but Sony cut their price on PSX when it was out a year or even less. It's been out a year and a holf now.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Locutus]

And Microsofts deep pockets allows them to keep losing money. Do you think they've made any money on WinCE yet? Remember they PAID AT&T to use WinCE in settop boxes to a tune of $5 billion and that was only one deal. The iPaq has only sold 2 million units total.

My issue with the previous posting is that Microsoft uses the monopoly money from MS Windows to fund all these other Window-ized ventures when they should have failed a long time ago. Again, the market is NOT deciding what's going on. Cash is.

By the way, I'm told the games on Xbox look good but don't play very well. The ads show the pretty ones and people don't like them when they get to playing them. PS2 and GameCube have more playable games. Again, Microsoft needs to buy out the PS2 and GameCube developers to make Xbox work.

$40 billion in cash might allow them to do this but I doubt Sony and Nintendo will stand still.
IMO.

LoB

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[ink]

This is not true. By this time in the lifespan of the original PlayStation, Sony had already cut the price.

\

The PSX had a price cut before it was even released. I preordered one at US$349 and then on that lovely day (September 9, 1995) they lowered the price to US$299. By Christmas of 1996 it was US$199. By the next holiday season it was US$149, and it has gradually come down from there. I think the PS1 is going to skyrocket at US$50.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[joshsisk]

I know no one that has done this.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Surlyboi]

Actually, I too, dig the XBox controllers, both the
American and Japanese versions. They are quite
comfortable. Not that I really have a problem with
the PS2 controllers either...

My favorite feature of the XBox controllers though,
is the breakaway cables. It was very considerate of
MS to implement those cables for people who like to
place their boxes in precarious positions. These
should keep people from pulling their boxes off
shelves and breaking them.

Then again, considering how heavy XBoxes are,
maybe the breakaway cables are there to prevent
things like this from happening. I mean, how do
we know MS wasn't doing XBox development in the
Arctic back in '93? =)

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[farfolen]

agreed. I believe when the PS2 first came out they were losing something around 120 a system sold. it's dwindled since then. and dude, abandoned teh PC market as a gaming platform? i like my PS2, too, but you need to get off yours every so often.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

By the way, I'm told the games on Xbox look good but don't play very well. The ads show the pretty ones and people don't like them when they get to playing them. PS2 and GameCube have more playable games. Again, Microsoft needs to buy out the PS2 and GameCube developers to make Xbox work.


A friend of mine has both the X-Box and PS2 and has no complaints about the way the games play on X-Box. He did state that Max Payne in particular (which looks like shit on PS2 I might add, as I've played it on both PS2 and PC) played much better on the X-Box, though I'd have to say that almost anything is an improvement over the way it played on the PS2.

A lot of previously scheduled PS2-only games have been announcing they're going to ship X-Box versions as well recently. Bioware's Star Wars RPG will ship on X-Box up to 6 months before shipping for the PC. A few of the X-Box-only games coming down the line should do well. I think with the games scheduled for release this year and the price drop, the X-Box should have another good holiday season, and I believe that the 2002 holiday season will be the ultimate determination of where everything sits in the console industry for the next couple of years. My own bets will be that we'll see a top 3 in consoles for one of the first times in which all 3 will be considered successful, with PS2 and X-Box at the top and GameCube sticking with Nintendo's niche. Of course, with Nintendo more focused on the GBA, who knows.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

and the PSX wasn't anywhere near as successful as the PS2 until after the cut to $149, which also coincided with the releases of some of the most impressive (visually if not in gameplay as well) games released for the system (FFVII, MGS, RE2, etc).

BTW, if you can find them, DreamCasts usually run about $50 as well. At $199 I'll definitely be picking up an X-Box as soon as I see them at that price.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[WanChan]

Gillette kind of have the drop on everyone, all the same. cheap handle, expensive blades. At it for years.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

The official numbers are 4-5 games per console sold, so even if everyone you know only bought 2 games, someone out there is buying a shitload of games to make up for it. Things like extra controllers and DVD kits I haven't seen numbers for, but I'd bet they're probably much lower than he stated as well (because I can't believe everyone would buy the DVD kit or that very many people would buy 3 extra controllers, at best a lot of extra controllers float around when people that both have an X-Box go over to each other's place to play a game).

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the initial "Xbox purchases" were forced bundles. If you wanted an Xbox on launch date here in the US, most places would not sell you one without buying their bundle of 3 games and an extra controller.


Only if you went to a game store (ie EB, Babbages, etc), and in most of those cases you had to do the SAME THING for the PS2. You could've bought the console alone at most major retail chains, from Sears to Wal-Mart.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[AltaMannen]

I'd say it is only possible to lose much per console if you have a small installed user base, if you sold lots, then you'd obviously lose more :)

By the way, doesn't it seem kind of suspicious that they claim to make up the differance in loss per machine in game royalties?

Assume that Microsoft makes $7 per sold game (That's about 15% - which would leave about 21% each to retailer, distributor, publisher/developer, seems a bit much really). In order to make up a $150 loss per machine (assuming the cost to M$ is $350 which seems low for the sum of the price of the parts) or that for each sold console, the average number of [full price] games sold would be over 21!!!

Now, I'm no fancy analyst(tm) (IANAA) but it seems to me that shelling out over $1000 in games for one console is more than the average xbox owner is ready to do.. Assuming the average xbox owner isn't a complete gaming freak or really, really rich.

I think the way to make console hardware money is to perhaps sell at a loss _initially_ but when there's plenty of games and R&D costs have been covered to actually make a profit from the hardware. I suspect in my dark mind that the PS2 has been profitable at the $299 price point for a while now. I doubt the xbox will be profitable even at $299 for some time...

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[Locutus]

Competition would be great in the gaming/console market. I only hope Microsoft's anti-competition nature don't "pull a Netscape" on the PS2 and/or GameCube.

IMHO, they should not be allowed to buy gaming companies and not be allowed exclusive deals with gaming developers. There are many other things they should not be allowed to do because they are a monopoly at the OS level and should only be allowed to compete and not kill competition.

I just don't think they've EVER actually competed. It's always been that they put everything into preventing competition....

If what you say is true, this year will be an interesting one for Sony and Nintendo...

LoB

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[byran lei]

>A lot of previously scheduled PS2-only games have been announcing
>they're going to ship X-Box versions as well recently. Bioware's Star
>Wars RPG will ship on X-Box up to 6 months before shipping for the PC.
>A few of the X-Box-only games coming down the line should do well.
>
And like, who cares? Current PS2 owners won't give a damn, and the rumor that that the Xflop may be getting a port of a PS2 game instead of the bunch of ported Dreamcast games they are now getting won't convince very many people to run out to buy an Xbox. In fact I bet that Britney Spears dance game (which is a hell of a lot nicer than I thought it would be) for the PS2 will generate more PS2 sales than something like Bioware's Star Wars RPG will for the XBox.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[byran lei]

>If the X-Box is responsible for one thing, it's being the catalyst for
>console prices to drop dramatically at a faster rate than previous
>generations.
>
>
Wrong. The Xbox had little or no real effect on the prices on console prices. That would go to the GameCube if in fact what you claiming for the Xbox actually happened. It didn't. What happened was that Microsoft tried dump a "product" that nobody wanted (The Xbox) into a market where it didn't fit into (The Console Game Market). Saying the Xbox X-Box is responsible for something is like saying the Commodore CD32 is responsible for something other than hasting the collaspe of Commodore...

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[byran lei]

>Xbox's long-term prospects will be decided during the next holiday
>season. If the games are there and the online portion shows promising
>results, the MS will keep pouring cash into it. They *really* want
>into this market.
>
>
Too bad for Microsoft that the market doesn't want them. If you think that the Xbox is going to be seeing a sudden rush of sale by X-mas forget it.

Re:MicroSofts downfall

[ink]

I'll buy an X-Box as soon as there is a game on it that I can't get on my PS2 or PC that I really want to play (just like any other system, I suppose). I'll probably end up getting a GC after Zelda comes out, cause I'm a Z junkie.

Temptations of a PS2

[CmdrTaco (editor)]

I used to be a hardcore gamer, but the past few years I've found myself less and less drawn to the console world. The last system I owned was a Nintendo64, which I sold two years ago, and since then I have played games exclusively on my PC. Mostly this is for the variety presented to me, but one of the main deterrents for me buying a console system is the initial cost. I already have a computer that can (reasonably) play most modern games, so why should I put out for some unecessary hardware?

GTA3 changed all that. Well, that and FFX. These two games have kept me up many a night pondering whether or not to indulge my fantasies and purchase a PS2. But, to be perfectly honest, $299 is not in my price range right now.

I'd have to say that if Sony even lowered the price of the PS2 to $199 to become more competitive with the Gamecube, I'd probably pick one up in a second. I've been waiting for GTA3 to come out to the PC for what seems like ages, and the opportunity for instant gratification would be irresistable. All I can say is, Sony, please lower the price and spare me the agony of waiting another month of agony waiting for GTA3!

Re:Temptations of a PS2

[Tazzy531]

GTA3 .. coming out next week for the PC! I've also been waiting ages for this. But so that they didn't have to delay anymore [and probably make people pay,] they are making the online multiplayer part an addon feature, not part of the game.

Re:Temptations of a PS2

[Erik K. Veland]

How the hell do you rape someone in GTA3? Is this some secret cheat I've been missing out on? I mean... who cares about picking up a hooker, paying her and then driving over her to get the money I just paid back when I can rape her instead...

Re:Temptations of a PS2

[the_2nd_coming]

dude!!! they have one for the Gameboy advanced!!!!

I think I am gonna buy one of those suckers...I hear it is basicly a pumped up super nintendo or somthing.

Re:Temptations of a PS2

[Anonymous Coward]

My games really don't crash in the middle of levels. Since a console game can never be updated, they usually go through a more intensive testing period whereas a PC game can be released at 95% and be updated later.

Lets not forgot the customization of PC games where you have 0 on the console. As time goes on and you see these MMPORGs coming to console, they won't be able to even think about it unless your PS2 has both an online adapter and harddrive. You can not have successful online games without a harddrive. Your consoles are going to have the same issues that PCs have, just with worse graphics and worse gameplay :)

Re:Temptations of a PS2

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see, I have $300 (+tax!) in my pocket, do I buy a:
a) video card
b) console

If I go with option a, I might be able to get the top of the (consumer) line, or might not, depending on where I end up buying the card. If I go with option b, I can definitely get the best console on the market, it's just a question of figuring out which one that is.

In the end, instead of buying a new video card every 6 months, I buy one every 12-18 months and buy a console on the off 6th month.

Damnit.

[thefuckedupgenius]

I just bought one yesterday. ARGH!

Re:Damnit.

[Anonymous Coward]

why don't you return it?

Re:Damnit.

[thefuckedupgenius]

good point. i need coffee to realize these things.

Re:Damnit.

[Mupp252]

If you bought it from Circuit city you can get 110% of the difference of price if it's been changed in the last 90 days... or so says the commercial.

Re:Damnit.

[Anonymous Coward]

just bring it back...

I see MS pissing off a lot of people that paid an extra $100. You sigh when they drop your console $50 but to drop it $100 (33% of the price), it does two things:

1.ticks off the people who recently purchased it

2.makes it look like your system is failing and a price drop this dramatic is the only way to save it

you may want to return it and wait a bit to see how well it does with the price drop...

An on topic first post? WOW!! :)

[Cancer_Nick]

wicked.

Price Wars, Schmice Wars

[Disevidence]

It really doesn't matter about matching or costing less than a competitors console. If its reasonably priced, and it has figurehead games and a reasonable fan base, it will go well. Pros and Cons: P2 - Its older, but thats not necessarily a hard thing. Its got crap all RAM, and its hard to program for, but its still got more support than the X-Box. It has good titles, the FF series, and a good controller. X-Box - Its a great console, but no matter how much it costs, if its got no figurehead titles, it won't sell. And it doesn't. Halo is ok, but thats all that's even made me look twice. Im writing it off already, due to no games coming that interest me. Gamecube - Not out here (Australia) yet, so i cannot comment. Give me PC anyday.

Re:Price Wars, Schmice Wars

[Fjord]

Adding to your last sentance. Another problem is that Halo is being released for the PC. I don't see how Microsoft is going to have exclusive big sellers on X-box, since its so close to a PC.

Unless that's the plan. Get some titles on the X-box to get people to buy a $200 copy of Windows XP to play the lastest games. Hmmmmmm

really good time to get an xbox

[Anonymous Coward]

great time to pick up a spare pc for $200 considering mod chips have just been released! I bet a real OS port comes soon. Google Enigmah-X or Xtender for details.

Re:really good time to get an xbox

[elveu]

they have security on the hard disk don't they? well i could be wrong but i gathered that they don't like the idea of people doing that and createdsecurity to stop it. although i guess that it's only a matter of time untill it can be formatted.

Differences

[fryke]

GameCube is more for kids, whatever Nintendo tries. They do a *good* job with their consoles and the games have a longevity other consoles/games lack. Gameplay rules.

X-Box tries to appeal to PC users and 'older' kids (teens, twens).

But *that's* where the PS2 is strongest.

All Sony has to do now is bring out PS3 at the right moment. Doesn't have to be able to play PSX-Games, really. Needs PS2 compatibility and 'something new'.

Re:Differences

[Ziviyr]

GameCube is more for kids, whatever Nintendo tries.

Yup, little kide love romping around a dark stormy mansion with a shotgun trying to blow a zombie's head off while they get bitten into, blood splattering, screaming and struggling until they fall onto the floor and a huge puddle of blood surrounds them.

Yup, kids are covered.

Re:Differences

[haggar]

The Nintendo games, I think, are not only for kids. I would rather say, it's for the entire family. Most of the games on the Playstation2 (except Spyro and perhaps FF) I would not play with my wife, but I definitely play most of those for Nintendo consoles. The Xbox titles, on the other hand, are all unwelcome in our home.

Re:Differences

[Troed]

GameCube is more for kids, whatever Nintendo tries.

The Gamecube sold 400000 first week in Europe (yes, that's A LOT - even compared to the PS2. It stomps all over what the Xbox has done here so far)

The average age of the Gamecube-buyer in Europe is 23.

23. Yes, that's official.

Re:Differences

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, little kide love romping around a dark stormy mansion with a shotgun trying to blow a zombie's head off while they ...

WOW! I played the first level of that Luigi's Mansion game in the stores, but I had no idea that it turned into something like this!! When does it change into that? Level 2, 3?

Wait, was that games really called "Luigi's Manson"?

Re:Differences

[Magius_AR]

Yup, little kide love romping around a dark stormy mansion with a shotgun trying to blow a zombie's head off while they get bitten into, blood splattering, screaming and struggling until they fall onto the floor and a huge puddle of blood surrounds them.

That's such a stupid attempt at arguing, it sure as hell shouldn't be modded up. Nintendo releases like 80 or 90% cartoony or kid-targetted games, and maybe a handful of "violent" or "mature" games, and people try to use that handful of games to insist that the primary market of the Gamecube isn't kids.

Please, for the love of god just accept it.

Magius_AR

Re:Differences

[scot4875]

Nintendo releases like 80 or 90% cartoony or kid-targetted games, and maybe a handful of "violent" or "mature" games, and people try to use that handful of games to insist that the primary market of the Gamecube isn't kids.

No, it's not. It's targeted at people who enjoy fun games.

Please, for the love of god just accept it.

Please, for the love of god, just accept that the games you play don't make you any more grown up or (for the really pathetic) masculine.

--Jeremy

Re:Differences

[ronfar]

Here's my response. It says everything I want to say, eloquently.

I play console games because

[pommiekiwifruit]

they work, whereas PC games, if they even install, crash after you've got halfway through a level. This has happened to me on many machines over the last 10 years, and I don't see it stopping soon. Even the developer ads for the CD "protection" systems used by most games claim that they won't work on 5% of PCs.

Re:I play console games because

[ocbwilg]

they work, whereas PC games, if they even install, crash after you've got halfway through a level.

Sounds like someone needs to work on their PC skills. Either that or quit trying to run PC games in a Wine session running on a Linux PPC system. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I do play frequently and it has been a long time since I've had any of the kinds of problems that you mention.

The thing is, since everyone uses PCs nowdays, even thinks that makes them an "expert." That couldn't be farther from the truth.

Price dumping

[Kensaro]

I'm not sure about this, but aren't there laws against selling equipment below cost? They were usually put in place to prevent asian countries of muscling into the market by selling at a loss, but I'm fairly certain that what microsoft is doing, taking a loss of hundreds of dollars on each console, could be labeled as... hmmm, anti-competative?
Microsoft's coffers are so deep, they can keep this up for another hundred years or so....

Re:Price dumping

[Graymalkin]

Where does this crap about Microsoft losing hundreds of dollars per console come from? Retarded slashdotnomics? The XBox is definitely not several hundreds of dollars worth of parts, especially for a manufacturer buying hundreds of thousands of each component. Integrated components are scores cheaper than non-integrated components. A processor slow by current standards on a fully integrated motherboard with a hard drive easily produced and procured from several different sources lacking price gouging components like speakers, a monitor, or a KB/mouse combo all make for a pretty inexpensive machine to build. A bare bones PC costs about as much as an XBox and they use more exepensive components. Besides Microsoft isn't paying the beaucoup fees to ship units overseas, they have manufacturing plants on the three continents they sell XBoxes on.

Console makers have always taken a loss on the initial batches of the consoles as a matter of course, the games were the money makers. Half of the cost of a new game goes back into the pockets of whoever makes the console. It costs a bit of money to have that Sony Entertainment or Nintendo logo pop up when the game starts. The consoles merely existed to play the games on. When a console maker hit black they'd drop the price of the console to just above cost and soak up the profit from licensing. Sony has been making a profit off the PS2 for a while now because with the XBox aiming at the same demographics the price of the PS2 hasn't needed to drop. They've sold millions of PS2s and made many more millions off all the blockbuster games for it. Microsoft might be taking a small loss or just operating on a razor thin margin with the XBox but they're not losing hundreds of dollars per freaking console.

Re:Price dumping

[muffen]

Microsoft might be taking a small loss or just operating on a razor thin margin with the XBox but they're not losing hundreds of dollars per freaking console.

Ehh... you know that Microsoft lost $10 - $15 on each sold console when the first launced it (I am too lazy to find a link for you, but I'm sure a quick search on google will get you a few), they said it themselves.

Now, I may not be a great mathematician, but if you add $100 to $10, then you get a total of $115 :)
So, this is probably what they are loosing for each sold console today. Alright... it's not several hundred, but it is over one hundred... which is way more than any other console.

Don't you think there's something wrong with the X-Box if Microsoft has to loose that much to get them sold??

Re:Price dumping

[ihoppancakes]

10-15 dollars?

I don't think so.

10-15 dollars was the most generous estimate of the loss on each XBox.

The real number, before the current markdown, is somewhere in the 100-15 dollar range.

Re:Price dumping

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you think there's something wrong with the X-Box if Microsoft has to loose that much to get them sold??

The overheating/crashing problems are/were enough to tell me there's something wrong with them. I don't follow console gaming anymore, but that's all I've heard about the xbox.

Re:Price dumping

[elveu]

Don't you think there's something wrong with the X-Box if Microsoft has to loose that much to get them sold?? they drop the price to compete so they can sell consoles to people who were considiring getting another console since the compitition is so fierce. and hey they charge plenty for windows and there really is something wrong with that.

Re:Price dumping

[SlamMan]

You're refering to anti-dumping laws. In the US, a common misconception about them is that they protect the consumer from US businesses. In reality, they're designed to keep foriegn businesses from unfairly competing with US businesses. They don't do a thing to restrict US companies.

Re:Price dumping

[juggler314]

It's not just the raw component cost you have to add up. You have to take into account all the R&D and marketing that is spent on it before day 1. In effect if MS spent $500M and on day 1 had 1Million consoles available each one costs $500! The loss/console is based on the expected number of total cost sold over the initial projections.

Re:Price dumping

[Anonymous Coward]

"The overheating/crashing problems are/were enough to tell me there's something wrong with them. I don't follow console gaming anymore, but that's all I've heard about the xbox."

So where did you dream up this lie? You think because it's MS that it has to crash or overheat? I have one and I have not had a single problem. Nobody I know has had any problems. Take your head out of your ass and next time base your comment on reality.

Re:Price dumping

[Anonymous Coward]

When XBox came out they were losing money per console already. Not by much, so it was okay. If they do lower it by $100, they will be losing almost $150-200 per console. That's bigtime dumping and very anti-competetive. I am guessing you wont see them dropping their prices to match the $200 in other countries or they'll get grilled.

Re:Price dumping

[-dhan-101]

they need to stop charging themselve the "Microsoft Tax" and ship those things naked!!!

Re:Price dumping

[SystemOfTheAnimal]

in an interview published yesterday on ign.com with dean takahashi, who is the author of a new book on the xbox, he more or less says that they lose $125 per box at current prices:

"So leaving out the modem saves them maybe five bucks per machine, and over 43 million units sold saves them $215 million. When you're losing $125 a box at the outset, that's a nice amount of savings."

so for MS to lower the price $100 would actually mean losing some very sizeable amounts of money.

Re:Price dumping

[smaug195]

Microsoft also dropped the price it costs them to produce the X-Box no doubt. All the components they buy from other companies dropped in price. It's also probably more efficient now, in their circuit boards and stuff.

Re:Price dumping

[Anonymous Coward]

Price dumping (or predatory pricing) is only illegal when you turn around and raise the price when your competitors die out (or when you bury it with illegal accounting). Atari sold consoles at a loss, Nintendo did (and still does) sell consoles at a loss, Sega did, and Sony does. I don't understand why, when people have talked about this for years, all of a sudden no one understands it.

Beyond that, what's anti-competetive about coming into a market where everyone sells at a loss and *gasp* doing the same thing? It can't even be said that MS is leveraging Windows to get into the market (and hell, the DoJ couldn't even manage to show it well enough to stand up to an appeal with Internet Explorer), because the machine doesn't run Windows software (though I noticed the states' proposal would force MS to make their set-top devices compatible with their desktop OS).

Re:Price dumping

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you people quit GUESSING as to what the actual cost to MS is? This is what's so annoying, people just picking numbers out of the air, or listening to other rumours and spreading them as fact. As if that wasn't bad enough, they have to go around flaming others with their misinformation.

Re:Price dumping

[Anonymous Coward]

It comes from Microsoft who stated they would roughly $2 billion on the hardware, and they hoped to make it up on the game sales.

38.7 Billion

[Anonymous Coward]

and that's liquid assets... it would take several x-boxes a house hold to take microsoft down.

Re:38.7 Billion

[Anonymous Coward]

So we'd better get started now.

i'm thinking ps2 entertainment system

[systemaster]

We'll at $200 plus $200 more for the linux kit i'd never leave the living room. It does come w/ a 40gig drive + keyboard + mouse + ethernet...not a bad setup. ssh to server to update website/access to the net / and just power cycle for counsle gaming!!!

Re:i'm thinking ps2 entertainment system

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't think the linux kit comes with the harddrive.

Re:i'm thinking ps2 entertainment system

[Alan Partridge]

I think it does

Nintendo price drop

[CeruleanSilver]

Meanwhile, Nintendo says it won't be making ANY price cuts before or during the show

I'm still holding out for one, since at $149 to $129 (or dare I think it: $99) I would be incredibly happy to finally get one. Besides, just because Nintendo says they won't be cutting prices, doesn't mean that it won't happen. Hell, just 6 days ago Sony was saying they wouldn't be making any price cuts at E3:

We're definitely comfortable at $299 ... I can't imagine that we need to change our strategy one iota.

source

Being an Avid Console Gamer

[phunhippy]

I've had nearly everything.. from intellivison, to atari 2600, to coleco vision, to nintendo 8 bit.. sega master, sega 16bit, nintendo 16bit.. turbo graphx(with CD), jaguar(ugh dunt remind me), to 3DO(one of my all time faves) to saturn and ps1 and PS2(love it!)....

Now that xbox has dropped(or will) drop to 200 range.. I'd might actually get one.. hate to say it.. since i'm personally against giving MS any of my earned cash(bla bla bla bla). But i have been impressed with some of the graphics i've seen on the xbox and it sounds like it can be a great system(has potenential)..

I guess the worst case is that I'll pay 200 bux for a 40gb IDE drive :)

As for Nintendo's new gamecube... its limited.. but hey its a gaming platform.. thats all.. i think i'll wait and see how good metroid will really be before i consider buying this one.

just a few honest thoughts about price drops here :)

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[Anonymous Coward]

Limited in what way? From what I know a videogames primary function is to PLAY games, and last I check PS2, XBox AND Gamecube does just THAT. Oh you must mean online, yes all of them will soon be up and running (Xbox being built in, the two you have to buy). Hard drive does'nt constitute Limited either.

Maybe the games perhaps? No, there are lots of games available for the Gamecube already.

I really don't understand your concept of LIMITED? If you mean by having a keyboard, general purpose applications and not just games, then I think your not fit to be a console GAMER but a Personal Computer USER.

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[phunhippy]

I really don't understand your concept of LIMITED? If you mean by having a keyboard, general purpose applications and not just games, then I think your not fit to be a console GAMER but a Personal Computer USER.

Ok... its limited.. I can't play CD's or DVD's or anything other then Nintendo GameCube stuff.. that to me is limited in an age where they could have very easily have supported at least CD playback.. instead they went with a proprietary design using smaller discs.. thats fine.. its just not for me and i consider it Limited.. got it?

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[Frodo420024]

> I guess the worst case is that I'll pay 200 bux for a 40gb IDE drive :)

Uh, make that an 8 GB drive...

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[Anonymous Coward]

> I guess the worst case is that I'll pay 200 bux for a 40gb IDE drive :)
Uh, make that an 8 GB drive...

HA-HA

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[Alan Partridge]

that doesn't make much sense - if the machine is physically too small to play a CD then that's that. I've got so many CD players in my house, car, bag and on my desk at work that I hardly need another. I have 2 PSXs, 2 PS2s and XBOX and a GC here at work. That little GC just makes me smile every time. Controllers ARE a bit crappy though, I will admit.

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[Gibbys Box of Trix]

Well, *SHIT*! I can't make toast on my top-notch PC, and here I was thinking it was the dog's fucken bollocks, but it's clearly lacking some functionality I hadn't thought of.

Just noticed my brand new DVD player can't play Gamecube games either! What a waste of money!

Hint: GAMECUBE - it's a CUBE that plays GAMES!!!

I'd bet good money you have a CD player and a DVD player already, at least in your PC. Why would anyone want their game console to play anything but games?

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[Darren Winsper]

If you want to play CDs, use your CD player. I'd be surprised if a significant number of people didn't have one. And as for DVDs, it would have increased the cost of the GC.

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[karlm]

The HD is locked, so you need to go through the XBox boot sequence to get it unlocked then hot-wap the IDE cable while your PC BIOS is in setup mode, then leave setup mode for the HD to be recognized. It's not worth it unless you'r mirroring the HD to try and reverse-engineer the stupid thing.

You're fooling yourself if you thik you can reasonably salvage anything from an XBox at this point in time. Sure, if you have the proper test equipment, you can watch the XBox unlock the HD, but that's more work than it's worth for an 8 GB HD for most of us. If any of you has a broken XBox or knows of a good place to pick up one for free, I'm sure I could find some MIT students willng to play with the BIOS encryption this Summer. Luckily as the price falls, more people are willing to risk breaking their XBoxes in order to reverse-engineer the BIOS encryption.

If somoeone finally breaks the BIOS encryption on the XBox (or figures out a safe way to bypass the decryption while loading the BIOS) and we get Linux BIOS or Open BIOS on the XBox, I'd be mighty tempted to pick up an XBox or four. After all, I'm only running a 266 MHz with 288 MB of RAM really is fine for almost everything.).

Re:Being an Avid Console Gamer

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've already got a PS2, then why would you ever care whether the Gamecube can play movie DVDs/Audio CDs? The mini-DVDs DO serve a purpose: the loading time is next to nothing, which to me is a LOT more important than having a 20th CD player.

Actual Xbox cost?

[cyr]

Does anyone have any idea how much of a loss MS takes on every console sold?

Considering modchips and game rips have just been released, making a profit may become harder than they expected.

Don't you remember being a kid???

[ringbarer]

Kids LOVE gory stuff! I know _I_ always used to watch overly sick horror films (so called 'video nasties') when I was a kid without many ill effects. Mind you, I probably WAS a grubby lil' scrote back then.

The Resident Evil games are no worse than a copy of the Fangoria Swimsuit Special edition.

And venturing dubiously off topic, I wonder if Capcom are going to acknowledge the fact that the Gamecube controllers have ANALOGUE STICKS on them, and thus allow the gamer to immerse themselves into the game by... Pointing the stick in the direction they want to go!

If there's one thing gamers HATE about the Resident Evil games, it's the 'turn and point' method of control. It's clunky and artificial, and a throwback to games that are about a decade old. The N64 version of RE2 had the right idea, with an analogue stick option. But the Dreamcast RE games didn't have.

Funnily enough, RE2 was the only one I persevered with. I couldn't even be bothered to get out of the first room on Dreamcast RE3 because of the controls.

However, if Capcom actually include the option to use a vaguely modern control system in the Gamecube versions, I WILL buy the console just for that. Hell, the control system in Luigi's Mansion seems just right. One stick to move, one stick to aim. Sorted.

Re:Don't you remember being a kid???

[zudo]

The post you replied to was pointing out that the GC is not just a kids machine because nintendo have allowed gore-fests like the resi evil games to be published (wouldn't have seen this back in the day when the blood had to be taken out of mortal kombat and sf2 on the snes!). If you reckon resi evil is a kids game then exactly what "adult" games do xbox and ps2 have that make you think they're for an older market?

To continue with the offtopic pad discussion, I agree, the controls are clunky in resident evil. It feels really weird on GC cos you can use the analogue stick but it still does turn and point, really messes with your head having digital controls on an analogue stick! The GC's tiny dpad doesn't help either. Unfortunately, because of the fixed cameras inherent in the resident evil design, they HAVE to stick with this control method. If you pushed the stick the direction you wanted to go then when the camera flicked to a reverse angle you'd suddenly find yourself going back the way you came!

Re:Don't you remember being a kid???

[TheWickedKingJeremy]

Check out control scheme "C" in the options menu... It takes a little bit to get the hang of, but once you do, it is infinitely easier to control versus the default control scheme. (essentially the forward movement of the character is pushed off onto the upper-right button, leaving the directional-stick to control only turning and backing up)

Re:Don't you remember being a kid???

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, it's a gameplay design issue, as well. As much as it sounds like an excuse when Capcom says it, if you *could* move around that fluidly, dodging zombies would be no sweat, considering the whole dumb/slow thing they have going on.

I'm pretty sure RE:Zero and RE4 will fix this to some degree.

(Game Programming Diary #3: By using zombies, we cut down on AI development/pathfinding time significantly.)

This could hurt Nintendo

[boltar]

I'm no fan of MS but no one will deby that the Xbox has the best graphics of the current crop
of consoles and thats what gamers go for. The installed base of the PS2 is huge so Sony won't
be hurt but in the west I reckon this could kick Nintendos backside as frankly the GC has some
pretty damn lame games so far except for Luigis Mansion but thats only of interest if you're
15 or under IMO. The graphics in the other games are pretty woeful and I'm thinking Nintendo may
have cut one too many corners in the GC design in trying to keep the price down.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

*cough* fanboy *cough*.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[Quila]

They didn't cut any corners. That's a 400+ MHz customized PowerPC with a custom graphics chip by ArtX (since bought by ATI). Add a good amount of memory and serious bandwidth, and you have a hell of a system for something that went into development two years ago.

Aside from that, I really can't see adding another huge console to my cabinet just for games. The Cube fits nicely right next to my TV (width & depth aren't much wider than a CD, and it's even shorter than than).

Also, it's the only one that's remotely portable (even a handle on it) and you can buy an LCD top and car adapter to make it a real portable game machine for car trips.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[boltar]

It might have a good CPU but I get the feeling the graphics chip is underpowered. All I can go
by is what I've seen onscreen and I'm not impressed. If its not the hardware then it must
be a case of the software developers not really putting much effort into it.
Whatever the case its not exactly the ground breaking quantum leap in graphics that
the N64 was back in 96.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[smart.id]

Well, I believe this summer Nintendo is going to blow PS2 and Xbox out of the water when they release Mario Sunshine, the new Zelda game, a new Mario Party game, Wrestlemania, etc.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[professortomoe]

Take a look at Resident Evil, bub. The graphics on that game are simply amazing. Real time shadows, beautiful textures, the characters look photorealistic and it's generally great. Not to mention it's a fun game!

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[ihoppancakes]

Funny, guess us console developers are too busy making fun games that console players actually want to buy on the GC to worry about cutting and pasting the latest code example from NVidia's developer pages like the tiny group of Windows/PortBox programmers do.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[NetGyver]

I'm no fan of MS but no one will deby that the Xbox has the best graphics of the current crop
of consoles...

Eh, best graphics? Don't get me wrong, hardware wise the x-Box is technically superior to it's competition but what good is hardware when you don't make the most of it?

I saw MSR, er...Metropolis..er..that fancy racing game..(I forget what they renamed it to).. Visually I could not tell hardly any difference then what I saw on the Dreamcast. I've also seen PS2 games in action, I don't see much of a difference really. Their both quite good.

....and thats what gamers go for

Gamers go for the games man. the GAMES, that's why they call them gamers you know? Every so often you'll find a game that draws you into it like a bottomless blackhole. You become addicted and glued to it like it was an extra body limb.

Its the gameplay, how it's laid out, the challange, the strategy, the controls, the fun factor. And if it has great replayability, rest assured you'll always have fun coming back to it even when the console is dead. That's what makes a game a great game. That's what true hardcore gamers are about.

Even if a game had outstanding and breathtaking graphics, it doesn't mean jack shit if the game sucks by design. Sometimes game developers get so cought up in trying to make their games look as pretty as possible, that the actual game starts to suffer.

Don't get me wrong, I love pretty and outstanding graphics too. Graphics are the hook. The sinker is the game itself. But in the long run, it's the game itself that determines its worth to you, not the graphics.

A penny for my thoughts? Here's my two cents. I got ripped off!

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[byran lei]

>Well, I believe this summer Nintendo is going to blow PS2 and Xbox out
>of the water when they release Mario Sunshine, the new Zelda game, a
>new Mario Party game, Wrestlemania, etc.
>
>
If the crowd of people at the Electronics Boutique watching the Britney Spears dance game for the PS2 was any indication, you're missing the point of why the PS2 is so popular and sells so well. I thought the game was going to be crap, but it's actually pretty damn good. You had people in their 40's and 50's trying the game out with their grandkids.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[Guppy06]

"I'm no fan of MS but no one will deby that the Xbox has the best graphics of the current crop
of consoles and thats what gamers go for."

First off, the quality of Microsoft's graphics compared to the other two consoles is debatable at best. I've seen displays where all three consoles are playing next to each other and I see no clear difference between the three in terms of graphical performance.

Secondly, if gamers just wanted graphics then companies would be selling screen savers, not games. Gamers want games (hence the name "gamers"). Historicly, gamers have consistently gone for the console with the better games or the larger library than the one with superior hardware.

• The Atari 2600 instead of the Intellivision or the ColecoVision.
• They bought the NES instead of the Sega Master System.
• They bought the Game Boy instead of the Lynx, Turbo Express, Game Gear, Neo Geo Pocket Color, etc.
• They continued buying NESes after the Sega Genesis came out.
• They bought the Sega Genesis instead of the SNES.
• While the 16-bit SNES and Genesis were duking it out, nobody bought a Neo Geo, a Jaguar, a 3DO, or a CD-I.
• The 32-bit PlayStation outsold the 64-bit N64 (at least outside North America).
• The Dreamcast found itself hard-pressed to compete against the PlayStation and N64.

"frankly the GC has some pretty damn lame games so far except for Luigis Mansion but thats only of interest if you're 15 or under IMO."

Then you've obviously never played any GC games (which is consistant with your "Graphics Uber Alles" statement). I have yet to see a game on any of GC's competitors, for example, that has the 4-player fun that Super Smash Bros. Melee has.

Nice try at trolling but you could have tried a lot harder.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[Nakago4]

Different strokes for different folks or whatever.. I personally found the gameplay of super smash brothers rediculously repetitive and boring.. I was bored with the game after about 5 minutes. Luigi's mansion was entertaining, but I don't see any replay value. I could go on, but everyone likes different games so there is no point in arguing over which is best.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[analog_line]

The graphics don't determine whether a console lives or dies.

The Dreamcast was head and shoulders above both the PS1 and the N64 graphically, but they bother handed Sega it's lungs back. Just because something has better graphics, doesn't mean a damn thing. If there were one answer to anything, life would be a whole lot simpler.

Please people, get your heads out of the sand. This is far more complicated than what machine can push pixels faster.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[scot4875]

I personally found the gameplay of super smash brothers rediculously repetitive and boring.. I was bored with the game after about 5 minutes.

Man, if you thought SSB:Melee's gameplay was "rediculously repetitive and boring", could you please list a game that *doesn't* meet that criteria?

And if by rediculously repetitive you mean "press button, have character respond," what are you doing playing video games?

--Jeremy

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, right.. Pointing out that competition lowering their prices could hurt your business is just "fanboy talk".. Sure. whatever. YOU, my friend, are the gamecube fanboy if you refuse to believe that.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[Kris_J]

Apparently it's the sound that's underpowered. A Nintendo-freak friend of mine is really upset that the 'Cube won't do Dolby 5.1. I've only got Pro-Logic so I don't mind.

Re:This could hurt Nintendo

[ProfBooty]

SSB is a button mashing game, that meaning it can be fun, but like most nintendo party games, does not take much skill.

i dont find it much fun when you are playing by yourself, but more interesting when you play with others.

Boycott Sony?

[randombozo]

Say, aren't we supposed to boycott Sony for screwing up our iMacs?

Re:Boycott Sony?

[thesolo]

Say, aren't we supposed to boycott Sony for screwing up our iMacs?

I guess you didn't get the new revised itinerary...sorry!!

Anyway, the new schedule is:
Monday: Boycott Sony/MPAA
Tuesday: Relax, check out new tech products and video games.
Wednesday: Boycott RIAA, Call congresscritters over latest atrocious bill.
Thursday: Relax, check out the latest CDs coming on the market.
Friday: Boycott the MPAA in the daytime, go see a movie at night.
Saturday & Sunday: Pretend we have lives outside of work and don't post on Slashdot.

;)

Re:Boycott Sony?

[ahoehn]

Anyway, the new schedule is:
Monday: Boycott Sony/MPAA
Tuesday: Relax, check out new tech products and video games.
Wednesday: Boycott RIAA, Call congresscritters over latest atrocious bill.
Thursday: Relax, check out the latest CDs coming on the market.
Friday: Boycott the MPAA in the daytime, go see a movie at night.
Saturday & Sunday: Pretend we have lives outside of work and don't post on Slashdot.


You fergot Wednsday - Sunday Watch AOTC Twice a day at the theatre, (and the bootleg twice a day at home, but that isn't too hypocritical)

Re:Sorry M$...

[ringbarer]

I am NOT supporting a product of a monopolist, evil, and anti-competitive company...

... I'm happy with my PS2

So we're Sony's pals this week then?

Whos pal we are this week..

[phunhippy]

So we're Sony's pals this week then?

Well according to the calendar yes..

5/12-5/18 Sony(celebrate PS2 price cuts)
5/19-5/25 Apple(celebrate rackmount servers)
5/26-6/01 PanIP(celebrate American Capitalism)
6/02-6/08 Microsoft(has to happen once a century)
6/09-6/15 Napster(company will be reborn and the same as in past but umm better)
6/16-6/22 AT&T(they realize they lose to much money and promise free phone calls for all)
6/23-6/29 TBA -- Check slashdot poll for this weeks :)

thats what the current calendar shows.. so be pre-pared :)

Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[00_NOP]

For that price or less you could buy a Dreamcast and, of course, run Linux or NetBSD on it.

There is even a thriving dev scene

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[Gehenna_Gehenna]

Nope.

Would rather have the PS2, run linux, pleay PS1 games, PS2 games, ad DVD's.
$200 for the box, $200 for the Linux Kit, and a freaking huge game library. Not a bad deal.

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[Westley]

Because not everyone *wants* to run Linux or NetBSD? Sure, buying a PS1 for $50 may not appeal to that many /. readers, but the question "Why would anyone want to buy a PS1" has a pretty simple answer: because it's a pretty good console with *loads* of good games (many of which are extremely cheap these days).

If I were a parent with young kids, and didn't have much money, the PS1 would seem like a good plan to me.

Jon

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[Quinn]

I've been using DreamSNES for the past few weeks, getting a lot of good use out of my old "dead" Dreamcast with 50+ games burnt onto a single CD.

Chrono Trigger, the early Final Fantasy titles, Shadowrun, enough RPG to keep me busy for a long, long time. And, of course, all the krazy puzzle games like Bust a Move and Dr. Mario!

There are also MAME, Genesis, and other emulators which are pretty simply burnt to a DC-bootable CD.

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[joshsisk]

Well, yes, but the poster did say "Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?", not a "Why would anyone want to buy a PS2?" A DC and a PS1 cost about the same; a PS2 with linux is 8 times the price of either.

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[glitch!]

If I were a parent with young kids, and didn't have much money, the PS1 would seem like a good plan to me.

Exactly! That is what I did. First, I am NOT goin to spend $40 or more on a single game, period. Over the last couple months, I have bought all kinds of PS1 games off ebay for $6 to $20 each (after shipping). Also, I have burned copies of most of them so that my two year old can safely play games while the originals are kept out of reach.

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[Anonymous Coward]

For $100, you can buy a PS1, a memory card, and two $20 games (like Gran Turismo 2, Final Fantasy Tactics, Metal of Honor, Chrono Cross, etc.) There are plenty of solid, fun games available.

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[Kufat]

Next thing you know, you'll be whining to us when your children are jailed for violating the DMCA by defeating copy protection.

Re:Why would anyone want to buy a PS1?

[Wog]

How is DreamSNES performance on those RPG's doing these days? I tried it months ago, and it was miserable. Are they *enjoyable* now?

Only Xbox is at a loss.

[Inoshiro]

"As consoles are sold at a loss anyway, ..." a common myth. No consoles are sold at a loss past the first few months if the company doesn't want to lose millions (look at the Saturn: Sega learned that one the hardway as the Saturn supporters didn't help them at all). Any company that doesn't recoup costs of the hardware can't be competitve on pricing of the base unit or licencing to 3rd parties.

Sony has been making money on the PS2 systems since 2-3 months after they were released. They're just dropping their markup right now. Nintendo's probably only making a few percentage points on the Gamecube right now, and it uses much newer and more proprietary components than the PS2. And it doesn't have 2 years of components being refined and made cheaper yet.

MS is probably not losing any more on the Xbox because of price drops in supplies of things like the P3.

Think about normal consumer goods: everything you see probably has a 3-5x markup. A shirt that is 100$ on the rack cost 20$ tops. A 20$ shirt on the rack cost the original supplier maybe 4$. That's why they can stay in business with low sales. But consoles need high sales at first, which is why they are at a loss or break-even for the first little while. Then manufacturing advances or supplier changes modify the base costs. This allows a company to change its strategy. With Sony, it was "make money" -- with MS it's "increase penetration." Once MS has more consoles out there, they can reap the benefits of more money from 3rd parties, which is where the real money is to be made.

Re:Only Xbox is at a loss.

[ihoppancakes]

Wow, that was a lot of typing to show nothing more than you don't work in or know anything about the console biz.

Re:Only Xbox is at a loss.

[Anonymous Coward]

MS were already getting the PIII for next to nothing, if not nothing.

MS are losing money on the XBox, in the region of $100 - $200 per box sold. That will require each purchaser to buy 10 - 20 games at full price over the lifetime of the console just to make it break even.

The price of the chipset is not going down for MS - NVidia have told them that they will not sell MS the chips at a loss, so it is pay up or get no chips at all. The DVD drive is already of dubious quality, what with the scratching and other reported faults.

Cost cutting can be done - reduce the size of the motherboard for one! Get rid of the hard drive (stupid idea in a games console), etc.

Re:Only Xbox is at a loss.

[rustycage]

Get rid of the hard drive (stupid idea in a games console), etc.

Without a hard drive, where are users going to be able to install all of those security patches once they get the console online?

Re:Only Xbox is at a loss.

[laserjet]

Hey! Microsoft SAID they were going to be more secure! Why don't you believe them?! :)

Re:Only Xbox is at a loss.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh? And you do? Try giving some facts to back up your insult next time. It only makes YOU look like the fool, ok?

Graphics vs. Games

[FlowCore]

It's a pity that people judges consoles based on graphics. PS2, Xbox and Gamecube don't differ THAT much in terms of graphics power.
What counts to me ist the quality of the games and on this sector Nintendo was, is and allways will be the best. Just look at what really good games came out for PS2 in 2 years and compare it to what Nintendo will release 2002. I think, most of the PS2 Games are crap.
I won't even begin to talk about Xbox (lockups, price, games, controller,...).

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[jgerman]

I have yet to see a really good game for the Cube, at least not one that has made me want to buy it. And you can leave your "Look what's coming out argument at home" I prefer to play my system now with great games now, of which there are plenty on PS2, not wait for games that may or may not be good in the future.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[Troed]

Super Monkey Ball, by SEGA

It's extremely fun, lots of mini-games (Monkey Target!) when (ever???) you grow tired of the maingame.

That game alone is a good reason to own a cube - and a sequel with updated graphics will come out in US this autumn.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[dhamsaic]

Hey smartguy, I've got all three next gen consoles and let me tell you something: there is a big difference in graphics power, and it affects gameplay.

Take, for example, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, which is ubiquitous. I have played it on GC, PS2 and Xbox, and guess which one plays more smoothly. Xbox, period. It doesn't have the slowdown, it doesn't have the pop-up - both of which are a problem on PS2 and GC. Let's not even make a big deal out of the fact that the Xbox version comes with an extra playable character and an extra level.

Let's look at Spider-Man, which is also out on every damn platform save Dreamcast. It, too, has extra levels that are exclusive to the Xbox version. And guess what? It plays much better on the Xbox, due largely to the fact that the Xbox hardware blows PS2 and GameCube away. No slow-down, no pop-up... guess what consoles have a problem with that?

I like my GameCube too, but you being a Nintendo fanboy doesn't change the fact that the hardware is inferior to the Xbox.

I won't even begin to talk about Xbox (lockups, price, games, controller,...)

Yeah, smartguy. Because you know that you can't win that battle. I've had my Xbox since the week after they were first released. I have played it more than any other console I currently own, save Dreamcast. It has been on 24/7 since I got it. It has never locked up (or, for that matter, given me any problem whatsoever).

The price is in line with PS2 and considering the fact that it does much more than a GameCube or PS2, it's really not so bad. I don't need to buy memory cards for my Xbox, but I sure as shit had to dump out some cash for PS2 and GameCube cards so I could save some games. Total cost of ownership for the Xbox is lower than PS2 and is barely higher than GameCube. And like I said, you're getting more with Xbox.

The games that are coming out for Xbox are just fine. You can bitch and moan all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Xbox had the strongest console launch since consoles were first deployed. Its games were all pretty much top-notch, which is more than can be said for GameCube or PS2. Xbox currently has over 60 games. I own exactly 10 of them, and all of them are pretty great. This includes a number of games that are available for PS2, GameCube or both, but are much better on Xbox (see above). There may be no "killer app" games for Xbox... but there weren't for PS2 after its launch and there sure as shit aren't any for GameCube. Super Monkey Ball is pretty fun, Rogue Squadron is great and Super Smash Brothers Melee will definitely always have a place in my living room, but other than that, nothing great is out now. Saying that Nintendo's 2002 lineup will be fantastic is mostly hypocritical - look at all the good games that will be coming out for Xbox and PS2 as well.

The only part of your argument that has a shred of logic to it is a complaint about the Xbox controller. I personally like the Xbox Controller and the Xbox Controller-S (of which I own 2 of the former and 1 of the latter), but I have large hands. Buy the S if you don't, and if that doesn't suit your fancy, check out of some of the third party controllers. It's important to have something that you'll be comfortable with.

To sum it up: you're a Nintendo fanboy, deluded to forever see their greatness, and that's okay - but it doesn't negate the fact that the other consoles are pretty fucking good as well.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[WildBeast]

me, I won't buy the S, I love the original XBox Controller. You have ten games? Currently I have DOA3, Fuzion Frenzy, Halo and Project Gotham Racing. What do you have and what do you recommend? Yeah I know this may be a little bit off topic, but we're talking consoles here.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[dhamsaic]

Dead or Alive 3, Project Gotham Racing, Rallisport Challenge, Halo, Amped: Freestyle Snowboarding, SSX Tricky, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2x, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, Spider-Man, Silent Hill 2.

Dead or Alive 3 is obviously the fighting game to have on Xbox - are there even any others out?

PGR is pretty good, but it feels a lot like MSR re-hashed for Xbox.

Rallisport Challenge is awesome. It looks amazing and it plays great as well. It's seriously very fun.

Halo is the game to have, though I haven't really gotten far in it - playing it on the hardest level was kinda killing me, and then I got really hooked on...

Amped, which is one of the more addictive titles I've played for the Xbox. Career mode owns me. But I've always really loved snowboarding games.

SSX Tricky is great fun, but the controls can be somewhat awkward (hold A + Y + right trigger + left on the D-pad == cool trick but contorted hand). Amped is the more realistic snowboarding game; SSX Tricky is off the wall with big tricks. Either is a worthy addition to a game library.

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2x is very very good. This from a long time Hawk fan, though. It combines Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 1 with 2. It looks good on the Xbox (better than on Dreamcast), plays well... lots of fun. It's my least favorite in the Tony Hawk series though, and if you're going to get a Hawk game (you should - they're highly addictive and provide TONS of replay value), go with

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 - the addition of the revert is awesome, but that's not what makes this a better game. Everything is different here (except the controls, obviously), and it's a change for the better. Pretty easily my favorite game on Xbox and just about my favorite game ever (shared with GTA3 for PS2). So much to this game (unlocking Darth Maul was good fun)... it's very complete. If you buy one more game, make it this one. Rent it first if you're not a Hawk fan.

Spider-Man is definitely fun. It's got some control issues (mainly that you will spend more time controlling the camera then you ever thought), but other than that, it's cool. The graphics are great (obviously) and it's fun. The first level (warehouse) is infinitely frustrating, however. Don't feel discouraged. Definitely worthy of a rental.

Silent Hill 2 for Xbox improves over the PS2 version (you can now play as Maria as well), and the graphics are better, but only real fans of the series should buy it if they already have it for PS2. This is a Resident Evil-type game - if you like those, it's good. If you don't, it's dumb. It's hardly as wide-appeal as Tony Hawk is.

For reference, I always read reviews of games at http://xbox.ign.com before I buy - I find their reviews to be pretty much spot-on. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Though I never rent video games (I always know that I'm going to want the game and I trust IGN enough to go on their reviews), I would recommend renting before you buy anyway. I simply hate renting games - I like to have them whenever I want to play them, and I hate rushing through a game.

Anyway, if you're going to buy one more game for Xbox, make it THPS3 - even the woman likes playing this game. Everything about it screams "perfection". I don't know how they're going to make Tony Hawk 4 better. It's seriously the most fun I've had on Xbox - you'll want to 100% the game with all the characters (of which there are some two dozen).

Anyway, that's a quick run down of what I've got and what I think of 'em.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[rizawbone]

>>I won't even begin to talk about Xbox (lockups, price, games, controller,...)

Yeah, smartguy. Because you know that you can't win that battle. I've had my Xbox since the week after they were first released. I have played it more than any other console I currently own, save Dreamcast. It has been on 24/7 since I got it. It has never locked up (or, for that matter, given me any problem whatsoever).

actually he can. perhaps you can repeat your diatribe to the customer service rep who wont fix my 2 weeks out of warranty xbox, which just suddenly decided never to boot. there is a well documented problem of xboxes failing around 6 months of use, and im the proud owner of one, wanna trade?

being such a fanboy you could probably fix it yourself.

so yeah, fuck microsoft.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[filmcritic]

I suppose you threw away the $25.00 warranty every Xbox owner received when the regular warranty expired. No wait...you probably didn't bother to fill out the registration card because then they would know who you are! GASP!!!!

Also, where's the proof of this "well documented" problem? I don't see any. Mine works very well after being used heavily since November 15.

Now, why don't you quit lying Mr. "proud owner of one"?

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Total cost of ownership for the Xbox is lower than PS2 and is barely higher than GameCube

TCO for consoles? This is the funniest thing I've heard all day. I guess it makes sense; I've never actually heard TCO referenced outside of business...
Although, if you play the Xbox *more* than any of your other consoles, it seems like TCO is higher, as it sucks more of your time away, and time is money. :)

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[rizawbone]

I suppose you threw away the $25.00 warranty every Xbox owner received when the regular warranty expired. No wait...you probably didn't bother to fill out the registration card because then they would know who you are! GASP!!!!

Generally, hardware doesn't fail within the FIRST EIGHT MONTHS OF OWNERSHIP. Does that not seem like a problem to you? Eight months with cutting edge hardware and it fails?

Should I have paid for the extended warranty? Maybe. Should the xbox fail before a year goes by? No, that's fucking shoddy hardware.

Now, why don't you quit lying Mr. "proud owner of one"?

Now why don't you quit misquoting, Mr. "parentheses make me sound smart".

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[jgerman]

It's a decent game but it got old, really quickly, like several hours quickly. As of yet, I've seen nothing to compare to the quality of FFX, MGS2, or GTA3. You don't tend to see (as) many different games from Nintendo either. The experimental, groundbreaking games usually come out for PS before anything else, if at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the Cube, I'm fully expecting some games in the future for it, but I won't buy a system now on the chance that games in the future will be good. There's no reason to gamble on something like this. By the time the really good games come out for the cube it'll have dropped in price. If they never materialize, I'll never have to buy it.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[dhamsaic]

It applies because all these companies try to gouge you anywhere they can.

Suppose, for a moment, that you wanted to buy a game console, use it for a DVD player, do modest game playing.

Now, the price of the PS2 was, until today, $300, same as Xbox. Assume that new games are the same price - $50.

Extra controllers are (were) $35 for each system. So this is relatively negligible.

You need to buy a memory card for a PS2, which is (was) $35 extra.

The DVD remote for Xbox is $30. It's $20 for the PS2.

So right there, you're out an extra $25 if you go the PS2 route.

Suppose you want to play some 4 player games. On Xbox, this is no problem - buy the extra controllers.

On PS2, you need to buy the multitap connector - hey, that's another $35 there. So now you're down $60.

Suppose you want to play some games online. Xbox has broadband built in - so no extra cost there. PS2 will need an adaptor which isn't available yet - and is likely to retail between $35 and $50. We'll assume $35 to give the benefit of the doubt to Sony. So now you've spent $95 more on a PS2 and its accessories than you have the Xbox. I won't get into the benefits of having a hard drive, but if you want to buy one for PS2 (for game upgrades, like I just did for DOA3 on Xbox), you're going to spend even more cash.

If you forego the DVD playing aspect and the 4 player, you still lose on the PS2 because you NEED to buy a memory card to make effective use of the console. This hasn't kept me from buying a PS2 (obviously), and I don't at all regret that I've spent a ton of money on my consoles, but saying that the Xbox's price is outrageous is absurd, simply because when you look at it from all angles, it's cheaper than PS2 (or was, before Sony's price cuts, which Microsoft will have to answer).

It may seem silly, but for the money-conscious gamer, it's important to examine these aspects. Xbox isn't really that expensive when everything is considered.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[dhamsaic]

No. Being an electronics geek and having an electrical engineer for a father, I could probably fix it myself. Being a fanboy would have nothing to do with it, but that's sort of irrelevant when you consider that I'm not a fanboy of any particular console. I just find it irritating when persons argue out of complete ignorance.

Now... he still can't, because he was complaining of lockups, not hardware failure. Xbox != Windows. Sure, some games will probably cause the console to freeze - that's the game, not the console. I personally have never had that problem, and I haven't read of anything online either. Google didn't have anything immediately obvious.

As for this being a "well documented problem" - maybe you should have bought the extended warranty? If it was so well documented, why are you caught with your pants around your ankles with a dead Xbox? I'm sorry that it happened to you, and it sucks for sure, and I agree that it shouldn't happen... but that doesn't change the fact that it did. If it's so well documented, I would think you would have been proactive in ensuring that you were covered should the problem happen with yours.

As an aside, you may want to try taking it back to the store where you bought it and demanding an exchange. I don't care what the store policies are - they should exchange that for you. Be polite but firm - you purchased a defective Xbox from them and you need it replaced.

Good luck, and I hope that, in the end, you aren't stuck with a dead Xbox.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[WildBeast]

I just got Oddworld's Munchs Oddyssey and it's pretty good to. It sure is better than all the Mario's I played.

Halo is good but I just have a hard time playing FPS games on a console.

My next buy will probably be Silent Hill 2 and then maybe Amped or THPS3

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[filmcritic]

You didn't read what he said because he DID say he was a "proud owner of one". Look at it again, there's no misquote.

Oh yeah..I don't know of any electronic equipment that doesn't have failures. That's the way it is young man, face the facts. But there's hardly "well documented" evidence of Xbox failures and you know that. You just want to sound like an idiot.

Where are your facts backing up "Generally, hardware doesn't fail within the FIRST EIGHT MONTHS OF OWNERSHIP"? I'd like to see an analysis of that one. See the paragraph above - hardware fails. Ask Playstation 1 owners about it.

Re:Graphics vs. Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Any cross-platform game is going to suck on the PS/2 period. They all do. All PC (or other console) ports to PS/2 suck.

If you don't write code specifically designed for the PS/2 hardware, it will be slow and look like crap.

For example; compare MGS2 vs. Spiderman.

Future game development is going parallel, Sony gets it... it's going to get interesting.

The XBox is a joke - a lame-ass PC in a crappy case with controllers obviously designed for ... i don't know - but not for humans.

I have an xbox - my PC.

Microsoft Harakiri

[jukal]

I like this scenario:
Microsoft sells Xbox underpriced - making a loss per each sold product. Meanwhile as the modchips have already been released, Microsoft is digging another hole for themselves: they have created the perfect platform for cheap Linux based homecomputer, again, project(s) already going. Once this evolvs into a easy-to-setup Linux home computer: voila!

Summasummarum, Microsoft's bully tactics may well prove as the ultimate bullet to their own head. They will end up loosing both because of hardware and because of lost Windows license fees. Eventually, loosing around $200 because of every sold Xbox. Thanks.

Re:Microsoft Harakiri

[Anonymous Coward]

Fourty two

You realize it's spelled "Forty two", don't you? I haven't read Douglas Adams so maybe this was intentional.

Re:Microsoft Harakiri

[jukal]

Well, actually, I now have exactly the same feeling as when someone points you and says "hey your zipper is open, I see your weenie!".

I have spelled forty wrong, maybe 21 years now. We finns start learning english at school when we are around 8 years or so. Can you imagine that I passed the highschool with highest grade in english ;) Luckily I am not alone with my fourty.

Thanks for pointing at my zipper! ;)

grrr

[nempo]

Im getting pissed of now, They're doing price drops on the consoles all the time so people will buy their machines but I thought cosole gaming was about the games?!? Today its more like about the console since I can't afford to buy one console and one game. Here in sweden a GC costs around $250 and ONE game costs around $70. Xbox is similar priced and the games for the PS2 costs a little less. Now, which one is the most attractive if your looking at the price, I'd say the PS2. To bad the only good game I was looking forward to on the PS2 was MGS2, now when ive seen the game, well, its more like a movie to me :(

XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[2ms]

If everyone was talking about Microsoft being crazy for selling a machine they wouldn't be able to make any money on for 7 years even if they sold a ton of games, does their having to unplannedly drop the price this early pretty much mean it's a failure?

As hesitant as everyone seems to be to officially call the XBox a failure, it seems like all I ever see are statistics about PS2 insanely outselling it. That's the opposite of normal for consoles. If the latest and greatest console can't outsell 2yo technology immediately (dont forget PS2 came out in Japan like 9mo or something earlier), then I think that has always meant quick and certain doom. I actually almost feel bad for MS - here they are actually technically way superior (the hardware) for once, and yet are unable and yet are failing in the face of extreme hype.

Of course, as much as I'm revolted by all the shady crap sony pulled with retailers preceding launch, sony's bogus "supercomputer" claims that had everyone waiting based on lies for a misdesigned heap of crap instead of buying dreamcasts for like a year before hand, and the general irritation of having the damn advertising and extravagent hype in my face everywhere I go (even like grandmothers talking about it and thinking they're cool cuz they're down with the "sony style"), nothing would actually make me feel sorry for MS.

My bet is that Microsoft, being the company it is, will learn from each and every little mistake it's made with XBox1 and come back in incredible avengence with XBox2. I don't give a rat's ass about consoles, and think 340x200 interlaced graphics are a weak alternative to a geforce 4 pc, but I know that a cornered Bill Gates is about the most vicious competitor the world has ever seen, and that he has determined that the console segment is going to be an extremely important one in the future.

MS has a history of always starting out low-key with 1.0 releases (Word 1, IE 1, Excel 1, NT 1, etc. all super weak and unpopular), but then completely taking over with subsequent releases.

Re:XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[ihoppancakes]

Do you actually believe the crap you write?

"a cornered Bill Gates is about the most vicious competitor the world has ever seen"

And what's more! I hear Bill Gates shits gold bars and can kill a man just by looking at him.

MS gains marketshare by leveraging their desktop monopoly.

They have no such monopoly in the console market. End of story.

Re:XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually almost feel bad for MS - here they are actually technically way superior (the hardware) for once, and yet are unable and yet are failing in the face of extreme hype

I'll admit it is better in quite a few ways, but I would hardley call it "way superior". Go read the articles on arstechnica and find out what the real differences are. Just because PS2 is a complete pain in the ass to program for, it doesn't mean XBox is superior. It all depends on what the game designer wants to achieve and how.

Re:XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you believe the shit you apparently don't read?

They have no such monopoly in the console market. End of story.

Maybe I can't see it because I'm not dropping acid, but the guy never said they did.

MS gains marketshare by leveraging their desktop monopoly.

How do you think they got that 'monopoly' (*rofl* - monopoly. Funny, I'm not being forced to run MS Windows by anyone. Hey - look, alternatives!) in the first place? By beating the living crap out of their competition. Once they have the know-how, they switch to, "The first one's free." And the story ends.

Man, it's a sad day when an Anonymous Coward has to save Slashdot from the wrath of FUD-mongering trolls.

Re:XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[ihoppancakes]

Boy, that Bill Gates is really "beating the living crap out of Sony and Nintendo"!

Competition's a bitch when you don't have a monopoly to leverage.

Now sit down and shut the fuck up. There's nothing sadder than an AC damage control follow up to your own dopey post.

Re:XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are having a premature victory parade. The war is not over. Just wait for the XBox's online gaming service. This is their ace in the hole. I thought they pretty much made that clear before they released the XBox. You didn't hear? Oh yeah that's right, you base your comments on fiction rather than fact.

Re:XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[WildBeast]

This is the console with the best graphics yet, it's far from dead. Online gaming will be available soon and since the XBox has cut it's prices, more and more people are buying it.

Re:XBox 1.0 officially failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

XBox 1.0 is a failure.

blah blah online gaming blah. You computer people may care about online gaming but the average buyer of a console does not. When my friends were talking about buying an XBox they were talking about the graphics and couldn't give a shit about playing online. Consider this, with only about 8-10% of internet users hooked to broadband, how many of those do you expect to own an XBox (considering how many the sell now). And of those who own an XBox, how many average people are going to move their internet connection near the XBox? Even the GC is outselling the XBox.

bigger losses

[f00zbll]

Let's see. Console manufacturers typically subsidize the cost of the console anywhere from 20-50%, so that it is affordable. They then make the money back on games. This old cnet article states it's estimated to cost between 320-400 to make each console. If the price of an Xbox drops, it will take even longer for microsoft to see a return on the money invested. The PS2 on the otherhand is already making money for Sony. Plus sony is good at manufacturing, so they are in a better position if the fight gets ugly.

Re:bigger losses

[telstar]

Plus sony is good at manufacturing, so they are in a better position if the fight gets ugly.

• Microsoft outsourced the manufacturing ... so they're in pretty good shape as far as that is concerned.

Re:bigger losses

[Junks Jerzey]

Console manufacturers typically subsidize the cost of the console anywhere from 20-50%, so that it is affordable.

Oh, come on, that's a standard line. Sony and Nintendo don't do this. They sell consoles (wholesale) for roughly what it costs for them to make them. They're not selling them at a huge loss.

Re:bigger losses

[f00zbll]

I have several friends who work in the game industry and one of them for Sony. I believe when PS and PS2 came out, they were subsidized. Once they ramped up production, and sold enough units to pay for retooling the factories Sony does make a profit on each console. Then again I could be totally wrong and all that is just pop myth.

Re:Sorry M$...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am NOT supporting a product of a monopolist, evil, and anti-competitive company

So you go and buy a Sony, who are members of both the RIAA and the MPAA. Yeah, real clever there.

Lower Game Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish the companies would lower game prices, myself: $50 a pop per game on each console is pretty ridiculous.

Nope!

[bleckywelcky]

This is all part of the MS big plan. Remember back before IE and Netscape were free? MS was trying to beat out the competition, so they sold IE at a heavy loss, to the point of giving it out for free. They knew they could support themselves indefinitely during the browser war, and that there was no way that the company would end up dying due to losses on IE. Netscape on the other hand could not take such drastic actions. They were not such a large company, and could not support themselves well at all without some revenue from Netscape sales. Eventually they were forced to give away their browser too, at the risk of losing whatever market share it still held (as well as shuffles in upper management, etc). Although I really have no proof, we can still speculate. I would imagine that even if the Xbox department ended up losing money overall (consoles + games) this time around, they would still show up for the second round with the Xbox2. MS doesn't want to lose a foot hold in the console market, it's their nature to operate in this fashion. The price cut was most likely a jab taken towards Sony's market share, why else would they be willing to drop the price $100 on something they are already losing money dearly on? The only way it makes any sense is if their goals are aimed towards market share, and not profit maximization (I doubt the price drop would be balanced by games revenue any time soon after). Sure, right now there is no way MS will be able to edge Sony out of the console market. But MS has to start somewhere right?

Re:Nope!

[rseuhs]

This is all part of the MS big plan.

Reducing their expectations from 6 to 4 million is part of their plan?

Reducing their price within 1 month of release in Europe is part of their plan?

Having European and Japanese stores cancel XBox orders is part of their plan?

Nonsense.

XBox is a failure, live with it. And there won't be a XBox2 because the few people (like you for example) who still have faith in Microsoft and XBox will be pissed off very much when it officially fails.

P.S.: And I didn't even start to point out how insane it is to compare a multi-billion dollar enterprise like Sony with a tiny startup like Netscape.

Re:Nope!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wher the heck are you getting your data? IE has ALWAYS been free. It just started out as an applet for the OS.

Re:Nope!

[Locutus]

bull. Internet Explorer was originally licensed by Spyglass. It was the Mosaic source code. Spyglass got paid for every copy sold and when Microsoft started giving it away and refused to pay Spyglass (because the wen't "selling" it) then Spyglass pulled out their contract and requested an audit of Microsofts books.

IE was not always free. It was used as a hammer to kill Netscape.

The difference here is that Microsoft can only reduce the cost of the console and can't give it away ( no precedence ). They could bundle a bunch of games and essentially give the console away but the games would have to be darn good and from what I hear, they look good but play badly.

LoB

Re:Nope!

[Locutus]

That's right, Microsoft can afford to lose money. They are still losing money on WinCE( PocketPC2002 ) but they NEED to have that sector or MS Windows on the desktop will start losing too.

Remember, all roads lead to Windows.

I still laugh at how Microsoft paid AT&T $5 billion to use WinCE but couldn't get their TV software going so AT&T took the money and went elsewhere.

Of course $40 billion in cash lets them do this time and time again. This will hurt Sony's profits for sure.

IMHO

LoB

Re:Nope!

[laserjet]

i agree with you except for your statement that there will not be an Xbox2. I disagree. Yes, the Xbox1 was pretty much a failure and was overhyped, and those that bought it now have a sour taste in their mouth...

but remember when internext explorer came out and it was a big piece of poop and netscape kicked it's ass? the problem is that microsoft is such a big giant that it can afford to have losers, because it really cashes in when it makes a winner.

I predict there will definately be an Xbox2, although I don't think it will be succesfull either.

care to wager a Guinness?

Re:Nope!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Microsoft rule of 3, the third version is the first to make money...

Re:Nope!

[bleckywelcky]

Um, actually, I don't even own an Xbox. The point I was trying to make was that the Xbox is a failure, yet through the magical powers of MS, it will not die. I don't believe in the Xbox and I don't have faith in MS, I hope the Xbox stays in the market just enough to be considered a threat, but not enough to actually be a threat. This way, the Xbox and MS will never take over, but the competition is still present. I suggest you re-read the post, you seemed to have missed a lot.

There are certain actions that must be taken to ensure investors that the company has not lost its marbles... that is why they reduced their expectations in the European and Japanese markets, and overall. The plan is completely logical in analysis (long run: MS becomes a monopoly in the console market), but not logical at all in the eye of business (short run: losing money endlessly, and rather unethical business practices).

Re:Nope!

[byran lei]

>I predict there will definately be an Xbox2, although I don't think it
>will be succesfull either.
>
>
The current Xbox is *already* the Xbox2. The Xbox1 was something called MSX and that was a major flop too,especally in Japan.

Re:Nope!

[rseuhs]

i agree with you except for your statement that there will not be an Xbox2. I disagree. Yes, the Xbox1 was pretty much a failure and was overhyped, and those that bought it now have a sour taste in their mouth...

but remember when internext explorer came out and it was a big piece of poop and netscape kicked it's ass? the problem is that microsoft is such a big giant that it can afford to have losers, because it really cashes in when it makes a winner.

Well that's very different, because as you said, those who bought it have a sour taste in their mouth and would be even more pissed off if they would have to put up several hundred dollars for the next version.

XBox can't be given away for free, XBox can't be bundled with Windows or PCs and Sony is no small startup. That's why any comparison to IE is a bit far off.

I predict there will definately be an Xbox2, although I don't think it will be succesfull either.

That would be a pretty dumb move by MS because XBox2 would be doomed from the start. But of course MS has done stupid things in the past and will do stupid things in the future, so I'd say it's possible, though unlikely that there will be a XBox2.

Re:Nope!

[rseuhs]

Um, actually, I don't even own an Xbox.

I never claimed that.

I said you have faith in the XBox as a platform by saying that "it's part of MS' plan"

There are certain actions that must be taken to ensure investors that the company has not lost its marbles... that is why they reduced their expectations in the European and Japanese markets, and overall. The plan is completely logical in analysis (long run: MS becomes a monopoly in the console market), but not logical at all in the eye of business (short run: losing money endlessly, and rather unethical business practices).

Eeek. XBox is a typical short-term project. Otherwise they wouldn't have chosen an off-the-shelf PC design and would have actually done some development to produce a platform that can be produced economically and can live longer.

No, XBox is a REACTION to the threat the PS2 poses and the failure of Dreamcast which should have brought WinCE into the livingrooms.

And it is an utter failure because a) they can't bundle it with PCs and Windows b) they can't give it away for free and c) Sony is no small internet-startup company.

XBox is dead, end of story.

Re:Nope!

[bleckywelcky]

You are still missing the point here. Yes, the Xbox is dead, but by the magical powers of MS, it will live on. For almost the exact reason you stated...

the failure of Dreamcast which should have brought WinCE into the livingrooms

MS wants the Xbox to have a presence in livings rooms, and will do whatever it takes to keep it there, along with the Windows underneath it. There will be an Xbox2, not because I have faith in Xbox or MS, but because I have witnessed the powers of MS. They don't care if they lose twice the money that they put into the Xbox total (development, production, licenses, everything), which is probably junk change to MS anyhow. They want the Xbox to have a presence, and will do whatever it takes... including the eventual necessity of an Xbox2.

No it can't.

[Anonymous Coward]

By your own words, no less.

Nintendo is kept solely afloat by the under 18 crowd.. As long as Pikachu and Mario don't come to the X-box or Playstation 2, Nintendo has nothing to worry about.

Re:No it can't.

[technomancerX]

Actually, being 30 I can say if the price drops to $200 I'll probably pick up a Game Cube just for Resident Evil and the new Star Wars game... The Star Wars game looks absolutely fantastic, caught a review of it on TV the other night.

Of course thus far those are the only 2 title I've seen for the Cube that made me drool... other than that my PS 2 still reigns supreme.

Bang! Sony did it.

[wift]

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/020514/tech_sony_playstati on_5.html

Tuesday May 14, 6:20 am Eastern Time
Reuters Company News
Sony cuts price of PlayStation, PS2

Hardly.

[Anonymous Coward]

They give away IE and a host of other applications for free now. They sell academic licensing for nearly nothing. Their assets make Alan Greenspan wet himself in envy.

As for an 'easy to set up Linux computer', please.. Do you really think tons of people are going to rush out and buy an X-box to put Linux on it?

They're not even doing that with normal PC's.

Re:Hardly.

[jukal]

> As for an 'easy to set up Linux computer', please.. Do you really think tons of
> people are going to rush out and buy an X-box to put Linux on it?

Well, firstly, I said I like this "scenario", I did not say I think it has high probability to actually happen.

Secondly, yes - I believe it's much easier to create a "easy-to-set-up Linux homecomputer" based on Xbox than a normal PC. Why? Because it is a fixed set of hardware. You can deliver a package which does not basically require any configuration - or even installation. The only "little" ;) problem there is the need for modchip - but it is just a temporary item, which will be overcome at some date.

m$ banners on Slashdot/OSDN

[TikRu]

Neither am supporting m$ i but i've been seeing banners of m$ Visual Studio .NET on freshmeat AND today at slashdot.

They had it right on the N64

[ringbarer]

You could use the analogue stick to move in any direction you wanted. When the camera angle shifted, your character kept moving in the same direction for about a second, just to give you time to adjust to the new screen and direction configuration. It was VERY smooth and intuitive, although it naturally wasn't the default option. The system you mention above gets in the way of the game, providing an unnecessary 'head messing' barrier to being absorbed in the carefully designed atmosphere. It would have been nice if all the characters in the Resident Evil movie rotated on the spot and moved in straight lines just to add that sense of authenticity. Let alone Milla Jojovich (sic?) not being able to pick up a keycard because her pockets were stuffed full of plants.

(Once more with formatting)

[ringbarer]

The N64 version got it right. You could use the analogue stick to move in any direction you wanted. When the camera angle shifted, your character kept moving in the same direction for about a second, just to give you time to adjust to the new screen and direction configuration.

It was VERY smooth and intuitive, although it naturally wasn't the default option. The system you mention above gets in the way of the game, providing an unnecessary 'head messing' barrier to being absorbed in the carefully designed atmosphere.

It would have been nice if all the characters in the Resident Evil movie rotated on the spot and moved in straight lines just to add that sense of authenticity. Let alone Milla Jojovich (sic?) not being able to pick up a keycard because her pockets were stuffed full of plants.

It's all about image...

[FyRE666]

Your typical games player has spent at least some time in arcades and fairgrounds, places you're very unlikely to see the word "Microsoft" on a machine. The names Sega and Nintendo are extremely well known and instantly identifiable with games, hence players have historically bought their consoles in droves.

Enter Sony, they may not have had any presence in the arcades, but by producing TVs, audio and video gear the name has long been associated with pretty decent electronics gear. The massive amount of money they spent promoting the Playstation brand doubtless lit the flame that eventually engulfed their competitors - by promoting the PS as a "cool" item, kids, teens and adults felt embarrassed admitting to owning Nintendo and Sega gear, so the exodus continued.

What of the image of Microsoft? To most people Microsoft=Office computer software that crashes. Not a good starting point, is it? The problem is that this image has prevailed for years and years and it's going to be VERY difficult to shake this view. "If their office stuff crashes, their games stuff will probably crash" must be in the minds of many potential customers.

I certainly wouldn't buy an X-box - I already have a PC. If I want a console, I'll buy Sony or Nintendo. The console market has never been able to support 3 brands, (Atari vs Intellivision, Atari vs Nintendo, Nintendo vs Sega, Sega vs Playstation, Nintendo vs Playstation). And for those claiming MS will just pour money in, don't forget that both Nintendo and Sony have been in this business for a long time, and both have huge cash reserves to throw at this market. Nintendo only do one thing: games and game related products, Microsoft have fingers in many pies, so their $40billion must be sliced between them - they're obviously going to pour more into their established products.

No, I'm thinking it'll be a two horse race with Sony maybe winning out due to the DVD playing advantage of their box. I can see MS migrating into interactive TV type stuff rather than pure games...

Sony drives a tough bargain...

[qurob]

Throw in a Linux kit, and I'll take it!

Re:Big Hairy woop.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, that hairshirt's gotta itch. When you get through flagellating yourself take a peek into the family room. We'll be the ones playing GTA3.

NT 1? I think you mean 3.5!

[boltar]

I'm sure there was an NT 1 buried somewhere in a lab at MS at one point but it sure never made it
to the outside world! :)

Re:NT 1? I think you mean 3.5!

[Quill_28]

I could be wrong but i believe 3.5 was really NT 1.0, marketing issues made it 3.5

Re:NT 1? I think you mean 3.5!

[ocbwilg]

I could be wrong but i believe 3.5 was really NT 1.0, marketing issues made it 3.5

You're both wrong, the initial release of Windows NT was Windows NT 3.1, and it was called 3.1 because MS didn't want their newest, latest and greatest technology to look like it was lower tech than Windows 3.1 which was currently shipping. If you accept the alternative argument, you might be able to get to version 3.1 if you included OS/2 1.0 and 2.0 in the history of NT since NT was largely derived from the work that MS had done on OS/2.

Price Drop Confirmed!

[Chopsticker]

Gamestop has pretty much confirmed the price drop on their website. $199 for a new PS2, $169 for a used system with a free DVD.

http://www.gamestop.com/gs/stores/newps2.asp

Resident Evil

[humanasset]

Have you checked out Resident Evil for the Gamecube yet?

One word: Awesome.

Re:Resident Evil

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've already bought/played it on PSX or PC, there's really no point. It's essentially the same game, right? Better graphics doesn't justify the price of the system, plus another $80 just for the game.

Ninento doing well in Europe: 400,000 sales

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo just put out this press release in the UK... the company seems very happy (excuse the PR hype, it's a press release after all) - interesting fact is the healthy 2.3 games sold per machine.

400,000 NINTENDO GAMECUBES sold in launch week

May 14 2002 - NINTENDO GAMECUBES have scarcely rested on the shop shelves across Europe before heading straight out of the door. 400,000 NINTENDO GAMECUBES have been snapped up by European gamers - that's 80% of the consoles that were in stores across Europe for launch. Many stores sold out during launch week, however more NINTENDO GAMECUBES are being delivered daily from warehouses to replenish stocks in store, and another 500,000 are being shipped across Europe over the next seven weeks.

Games sales have also been outstanding. On average gamers are buying 2.3 games with each NINTENDO GAMECUBE bought, with the best selling games being Nintendo's Luigi's Mansion and Star Wars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II. The average age of a NINTENDO GAMECUBE owner is 23 years.

This initial launch success will be followed by the release of the classic beat-em up game, Super Smash Bros. Melee on May 24, which sold over one million copies in just 9 weeks in Japan. This will be closely followed by the already legendary Pikmin, which launches across Europe on 14th June. By summer there will be a total of fifty games available for NINTENDO GAMECUBE.

Andy Williams, Nintendo UK General Manager says: "The hype around the launch of NINTENDO GAMECUBE was massive and we are delighted with the support the trade has put behind it. It has been, without doubt, a very successful launch and this is set to continue as we bring in more stock on a regular basis in the forthcoming weeks."

"Nintendo will not profit...."

[globaljustin]

At the end of the money.com story about Nintendo, it talks about their plans for online gaming. They are taking a balanced approach, releasing the modem in a few months and letting developers worry about whether to charge money or not. The most interesting part of all is that Nintendo does not plan on charging a subscription or anything else. This will help keep overall costs for the users down, and allows flexibility for developers and users. And they don't have to worry about overhyping a a big launch and then having it go bust like Sega...are you listening PS2???

Re:Big Hairy woop.

[Anonymous Coward]

Willing to sell-out for 'entertainment'. What a winner YOU are.

Losses are irrelevant...

[sjbe]

Look, Microsoft is going to take a bath on the Xbox console. They knew that going in. Doesn't matter anyway. Software is where they will make their money on the console. Plus, unlike both Nintendo and Sony, Microsoft has $40,000,000,000 in the bank. That will sustain a very impressive burn rate trying to get into/take-over this market. Frankly if it wasn't for anti-trust concerns Microsoft could probably buy Sony and Nintendo just to eliminate them as competitors with petty cash.

Mr. Blackley left Microsoft to make GAMECUBE games

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the designer and head honcho of the XBox that quit and left Microsoft to start his own software company has been confirmed to be an exclusive GAMECUBE Dev. Plans for games on other systems are not known. Is this comedy or what.

Nintendo at the Endo...

[BenJeremy]

Sorry, people, no matter how well the Gamecube is doing in Europe, that was yesterday, this is today.

Price being equal between the systems, right at the magic $199 mark, most people will find the PS2 irresistable. Both the X-Box and PS2 have it ALL OVER the Gamecube, and while it might have a few cool games, the other boxes have many MORE "must haves" from ALL genres.

I'm even tempted to pick up an X-Box, to suppliment the PS2 and Dreamcast consoles sitting next to my big screen, at that price.

Nintendo simply can't compete at the same pricepoint, without full DVD support and a bigger selection of games. Like most one-hit-wonders, Nintendo's Gamecube will fade into obscurity much like The Buggles or Toni Basil.

I don't think the X-Box is dead yet, but it's on the ropes. Only the incredible stamina (provided by M$ immense financial backing) will keep them around until the next box comes out. Still, there are more "must have" games on the PS2 than any other systems... not even counting the PSX compatibility! GTA3, GT3, FFX, MGS2, ATV-OF, Tekken series, ... geez. Not to mention the prices on many of these games has fallen to below $20!!

Re:Nintendo at the Endo...

[Anonymous Coward]

When did DVD playback become the killer app for a GAME console? I don't remember searching for a Sega Genesis that could also play VHS tapes. How many times did you use your PS1 as a CD player...zero. (Silly me, I thought I'd get a console to play games.) DVD players are so cheap right now - and you'll get a player of better quality.

Re:Nintendo at the Endo...

[mikael_j]

I'm getting a GCN because it has better games, I don't care about it not being able to play DVDs.
And about M$ having lots of money, well so does Nintendo...

/Mikael

Re:Nintendo at the Endo...

[PhoenixFlare]

So glad you can gaze into the future, and tell us the complete fate of consoles released only about 6 months ago...I was just about to waste $300 on buying a Gamecube and a couple games later this week, too *snaps fingers*.

Seriously, though, why all the posturing?

Anyone who's going to buy a Xbox/Gamecube isn't going to be convinced otherwise by the rantings of a PS2 fanboy, and certainly isn't going to run to Sony like rats from a burning house :P

As for the reasons you give for buying a PS2....I already have PSX compatibility in the form of a perfectly fine original Playstation. And must-have games? Maybe for you, but not me....The only one even remotely interesting in that list you mention is FFX. The others I could really care less for....Especially the FMV-fest of MGS2.

Re:Nintendo at the Endo...

[wikthemighty]

I dunno, CD+G playback was a big seller for the SegaCD for me - and they're even less plentiful than SegaCD games...

Re:Nintendo at the Endo...

[BenJeremy]

Yes, different must have for different people... and what I'm saying is that game-for-game, the PS2 has more great games in any genre than the Gamecube.

As for being a fanboy? I have to admit I did own a PSX, but I also have a N64, a Genesis and even an old SNES laying around. I have cash, and when I fele comfortable with a piece of equipment, I buy it.

Right now, the X-Box is barely attractive enough to buy... while I don't think it's met my expectations on the games, yet, I'm certain that M$ will pay developers enough to keep them in the game a bit longer.

A lot of it is economics. Why develop for the Gamecube, with Nintendo demanding exclusives?? Develop for X-Box and PS2 and get a MUCH larger customer base... or if it has to be an exclusive, do Sony for the sheer sales power or M$ for the up-front, guaranteed cash. Nintendo doesn't bring EITHER of those to the table (no matter how rich they are).

Nintendo made a serious misstep with the N64, using COSTLY cartridge-based games and overpricing the hardware (had to, since the games were such low margin). The PSX maintained it's momentum on the strength of outrageous margins on the software end. By the time Dreamcast came out, the Sony juggernaut was at full speed, rolling right over the N64 and Sega couldn't overcome their customer's distrust for a company that changed hardware platforms just about every year up till then.

Now Nintendo comes back with the Gamecube. You all say DVD isn't important... and I'm sure for those addicted to Mario and Pikmon, that is the case... but I, as well as 90% of Joe Consumers, won't buy a $200 system just to play one or two games. I bought 5 games with my PS2, which I purchased months later than the launch date... I had plenty to choose from. Plus it played DVDs out of the box - I personally know several people who use their PS2 as their DVD player, and it beats bringing an extra unit in the SUV for trips, too.

Nintendo screwed up. Until now, the ONLY thing keeping them in the game was the fact that little Johnny Rotencroch was able to afford a Gamecube 3 months earlier with his paper route money than an X-Box or PS2. That's no longer the case.

Now we see the Gamecube has been cracked (as has the X-Box). I doubt even this is enough to increase sales by much... again, price being equal, there are more games for the X-Box and a whole order of magnitude more games for the PS2. Games are cheaper for the PS2 (Classics only $20), yet Sony still makes money hand over fist...

I don't need to call Mistress Cleo to see that the Gamecube is doomed, as it stands. Nintendo should release the Panasonic version (with the full-sized disc player), get cracking with a dozen or so cute Mario games and hope for the best - but don't count on it.

Image, schimage... *yawn*

[Anonymous Coward]

What I love about this post is it's a summary of various pieces of received "wisdom". Sigh...

Your typical games player has spent at least some time in arcades and fairgrounds, places you're very unlikely to see the word "Microsoft" on a machine.
Where have you been in the last few years? It's pretty hard to breathe these days without seeing MS advertising somewhere - TV, magazines, billboards. It's one of the most recognised brand names in the US. And if console users = computer users, then about 99.999% will have heard of MS.

The names Sega and Nintendo are extremely well known
Yeah, and that REALLY helped Sega sell its Dreamcast, didn't it? Bzzt.

What of the image of Microsoft? To most people Microsoft=Office computer software that crashes.
Yep, that's why no-one buys MS software any more.... desktop OS market share is down to, what, 95%? Apart from the 0.01% of the world's population that has a clue, to most people MS is computer software. MS might be bullies, monopolists and generally no good, but Mr & Ms Average are quite happy with IE, Excel, and MS Word.

I certainly wouldn't buy an X-box
Downfall of Microsoft: film at 11.

The console market has never been able to support 3 brands
One hears this said again and again, but without any thinking about why this might be the case. In the past, true, one machine has emerged as a "winner" in each technology generation. But why must that continue?

People forget that even after Sega went under and before the XBox launched, there were three games formats: Nintendo, PS and the PC.

Since then, the size of the games market has increased hugely, and Ninento and Sony seem to be able to co-exist with different niches and products (Sony gets the adults, Nintendo gets the kids). And now hardware is soooo cheap (viz these price wars), I don't see why three console brands can't survive. I see a lot of people here talking about buying two, and if the Nintendo gets to $99 I'll be one of them. It's a maturing market, competition increases, profits go down. If MS is willing to subsidise the XBox for long enough, it may well get established as a brand, and all three console will continue.

"Killer games" are already getting ported across the console and PC divides, and independent game companies have an incentive to continue that trend - more sales for them.

Re:Image, schimage... *yawn*

[Anonymous Coward]

Your typical games player has spent at least some time in arcades and fairgrounds, places you're very unlikely to see the word "Microsoft" on a machine.
Where have you been in the last few years? It's pretty hard to breathe these days without seeing MS advertising somewhere - TV, magazines, billboards. It's one of the most recognised brand names in the US. And if console users = computer users, then about 99.999% will have heard of MS.


*swooosh* (whole premise of the article passes far above the AC's head... :-)

Now I remember why I usually read at +1...

The rumors of my demise...

[IdleMindUI]

...have been greatly exaggerated.

Just in case you''re thinking that MSFT's selling the XBox at a loss is going to drive them into bankruptcy, you might want to read this article on CNNMoney. To quote the article:

It's more cash than Ford, ExxonMobil and Wal-Mart have combined, and nearly four times as much as Intel, the tech company with the next largest cash balance. It is enough to buy the entire airline industry -- twice. Or all the gold in Fort Knox, four times over. It is enough to buy 23 space shuttles or every major professional baseball, basketball, football and hockey team in America.

I somehow doubt that slashing XBox prices is going to hurt them that much in the long run.

Re:The rumors of my demise...

[analog_line]

Microsoft didn't get that 40 billion stockpile by being stupid and digging their heels in when the odds were against them. The dumbest thing they could do would be to dump billions into the Xbox if no one's buying it. Unless they all just collectively lose their minds and anything resembling financial sense...

Price Match

[bdavenport]

most large box retailers of 7 days price match. i know that Best Buy, Circuit City, and Fry's all do. take it back and get the money refunded that you over paid.

;-)

what about the games?

[sintheattic]

My friend, just went out and purchased an xbox for $210 and the halo game is very very good,
its worth it just for that. Also, he plugged it straight into the wall for internet playing.

Yap...we already know...

[spazoid12]

http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/14/technology/ps2_pri cecuts/index.htm

But, who the heck cares? I'm still waiting for a price drop on something more interesting. Like, toothpaste.

NES cut to $10, Games just $1

[Jagasian]

Check out the great deals here on one of the best gaming systems ever. Sure the graphics and sound don't compete with most modern titles, but the gameplay can compete.

Emulation is ok, but the real thing is perfect.

Re:MicroSoft's downfall

[nelsonal]

Almost all the consoles are sold at a loss in the begining of their life. Intial estimates were that Microsoft lost about $100 per unit on X-Boxes. (Remeber that retail markups are about 25%, and think about the cost of a cheap PIII system.) Not including any advertising costs, which are much higer than R&D costs on something made from PC components. However prices drop fairly rapidly. I recall seeing that Sony was making money on $99 PSXs. Licensing fees per game run in the $10 range for new games, I don't know how much they get on older games. On the company's old games I have seen estimates that profit per game is closer to $15. But all of the above are esitmates.

It's price dumping...

[Svartalf]

Knowing something about the parts market (I DO work for a set-top box company that's working on...alternate solutions...) those boxes cost something in the ballpark of $600-800 to make. Volumes do NOT make it dramatically cheaper to make- the harddrive, Celeron, etc. don't come THAT cheap. Why do you think the set-top box market went belly-up? It's because the stupid companies went with Geodes, etc. because they were CHEAP. Bill of materials costing you only $200 or so.

Nintendo may not have a choice

[MtViewGuy]

I think Nintendo may be forced to drop the price of the Gamecube to somewhere between US$130 to US$150 by the time E3 starts.

The reason is simple: who wants to pay US$200 for a dedicated gaming machine when for the same price you get much more powerful consoles that have DVD playback capability and broadband gaming ready to go? Nintendo runs a huge risk of losing a large amount of purchasers to Sony and Microsoft thanks to Sony's price drop and Microsoft's soon-to-announce price drop.

Why the fanboy mentality?

[jrwillis]

I've owned a PS2 and an X-Box since they were released and love them both. I mean they both have their pros and cons, but why does everyone feel like they have to put all their eggs in one basket and trash the other consoles? I'm not yet interested in a Gamecube because they typically aim for a younger demographic, but it's still a great system in it's own respect.

By the way, if any of you that have an X-Box are WRC fans you really should pick up a copy of Rallisport Challenge. It's one hell of a great game.

Re:Why the fanboy mentality?

[DLWormwood]

Simple; most people can't afford more than one system at a time. Human nature dictates that people will defend their choice or decision, even if eventually it makes them look foolish.

Some people put too much ego investment in their lifestyle decisions, apparently.

Whew

[stwomack]

I almost broke down and bought a PS2 for $289 just 2 days ago. Now I'm glad I waited.

Re:MicroSoft's downfall

[tubs]

Does anyone have any websites that actully prove this? I've seen a few sites saying "analysts estimate"ing (Lets face it, an analysts job is guesswork) but nothing from an actual Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo source.

Again, I don't belive that the manufacturing cost of any console are actually higher than what the console is sold for, when things like R&D, FAB setup etc are rolled into the costs, thats where I think the "selling at a loss" comes from.

A Pentium 4 1.6 system will set you back about £599, including more memory, more hard drive space and 17" monitor. The X-Box came out what, 3 months ago and at a price of £299.

On the analyst note, a lot seems to point back to "Merrill Lynch analyst Henry Blodget" and him expecting and estimating a $125 loss on each box. And according to MS "A Microsoft representative said Microsoft had not briefed Blodget on the Xbox" so he is making a best guess, and a guess that may be standing on poor foundations.

XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[bryanbrunton]

The only question remaining for the XBox and Microsoft is whether or not the XBox can be a viable product in only 1 of the 3 major consoles markets. Japan and Europe are over for the XBox. For whatever reason people in those two major markets didn't buy the XBox. And once a product flops as badly as the XBox has in those markets, it is difficult, if not impossible to recover.

Points of fact:

(1) Halo sold a mere 5,000 copies in the most recent week in Japan. The most of any XBox title.

(2) Following its hugely successful launch in Europe, Nintendo is dominating the software charts there and will most likely easily slip into the "PS2 alternative" slot which the XBox had coveted.

(3) Recent data shows the Cube outselling the XBox in the US.

The larger implications of the XBox having failed in both Europe and Japan are that third party game support will soon trickle away. It simply won't make economic sense for game makers to support the XBox when its only market is a small piece of the US pie. Microsoft has managed to bribe/buy out/conjole a tepid welcome for the XBox after its launch and through the next 6 months. But once those game makers see how badly the box is selling, that support will quickly fade away.

The hard truth really is quite simple for Microsoft: the XBox will _never_ succeed with only a portion of the US market. Without 3rd party support the XBox is DEAD.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[SystemOfTheAnimal]

the last famitsu figures i read (popular japanese gaming mag) indicated that xbox sold 3000 units of hardware that week, which was about 500 units less than *playstation one* ^_^ meanwhile the ps2 had sold 65,000 units, and gamecube 30,000. the xbox outsold only the wonderswan and dreamcast. the outlook is indeed pretty grim! with the exception of sega, i'm not aware of any good japanese developers onboard the xbox program- that's bad news indeed for MS.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[Zoid]

(1) Halo sold a mere 5,000 copies in the most recent week in Japan. The most of any XBox title.

Halo was never launched in Japan. Microsoft knows that FPS games don't sell at all in Japan. There is no Halo over there.

You must have been thinking about Dead or Alive 3. It's not selling very well either. A couple weeks ago I saw the XBox sales chart where the Wonderswan was outselling the XBox.

The XBox is dead in Japan.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[Zoid]

Ah, I was incorrect. Halo was released last week. It wasn't a launch title. Wow, it only sold 5,000 copies in its first week? That's just laughable.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[bryanbrunton]

Halo was launched in Japan. It just didn't manage to sell.

Listen to: http://biz.yahoo.com/oo/020502/73479.html

Also see the game charts at:

www.the-magicbox.com.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[donutello]

The price of the XBOX was cut in Europe in April.

Since then, XBOX sales are neck and neck with PS2 sales.

However, don't let facts get in the way of your analysis.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[tshak]

This sounds like the same boiler-plate resposne for the PS1, and even the PS2 (to a lesser extent). "No Games", "New to Market", "Not Enough Sales". The PS1 especially took some time to gain momentum. Finally, consider that the XBox was launched during a very low point in the world economy, and it's no doubt that A) less people are buying consoles and B) people would rather get a PS2 or GC for a LOT cheaper. Finally, MS got their pricing right internationally, and their sales have gone up significantly. And don't underestimate the XBox's 3rd part support. Read the E3 reports on XBox developers and titles. The XBox may be in 3rd place, but it's doing quite well.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[bryanbrunton]

Your Micrsoft press release really is pathetic evidence of anything aside from the fact that Microsoft is one of the better marketers (pathological liars) out there. Do you have anything else?

Take a close look at your press release. Microsoft cut the price of the XBox on the 26th of April. This naturally resulted in a large short-term increase in sales as many of the fence sitters and hard core gamers picked up the system. They then sample data from the week of the 29th of April ( (1) Data from ChartTrack, 29 April 2002) to support this assertion: "Xbox represents 49% of the next generation console market in the United Kingdom".

I can guarantee you based on the pathetic sales of XBox prior to the 29th of April, that there was zero chance of the XBox representing ~50% of sales of next gen consoles in Europe up to that point in time from the XBox launch. Microsoft is feeding you its typical line of bullshit and you are only too happy to open up and swallow.

If XBox sales are so strong in Europe, then why is another price drop being rumored (http://www.cube-europe.com/news/102137936781456.h tml).

Here is a question for you. How many total units has XBox shipped in Europe? That's right you don't know. You don't know because MS is afraid to release such figures. They won't even release estimates. The only numbers that matter are total units shipped. And even that number can be deceptive because total units shipped doesn't always translate into total units purchased.

Nintendo has shipped 400,000 Cubes in Europe since their launch. A number that has been backed up by others in the industry.

Visit this site to see European software sales: http://www.elspa.com/.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[Bravadaz77]

Your Micrsoft press release really is pathetic evidence of anything aside from the fact that Microsoft is one of the better marketers (pathological liars) out there. Do you have anything else?

Well other news sites including ZDNet are reporting the sales surge here too. Also it makes sense if you lower the price sales will go up. Xbox pricepoint in Europe was too high, however they are far from being dead. They've only been out for 6 months and there selling pretty well now in Europe.

I can guarantee you based on the pathetic sales of XBox prior to the 29th of April, that there was zero chance of the XBox representing ~50% of sales of next gen consoles in Europe up to that point in time from the XBox launch. Microsoft is feeding you its typical line of bullshit and you are only too happy to open up and swallow.

And you have any figures to back that up? Sales reports? Anything? I didnt think so. All you have is your own crappy opinion.

If XBox sales are so strong in Europe, then why is another price drop being rumored (http://www.cube-europe.com/news/102137936781456.h tml).

Umm... Your pulling that from a game cube fanboy website. How legit can that be? I would wait for official reports from Microsoft before I would believe thats true. Maybe they got the pricecut confused with the US pricecut.

Here is a question for you. How many total units has XBox shipped in Europe? That's right you don't know. You don't know because MS is afraid to release such figures.

Do you know? I thought you didnt. Well according to MS themselves since the price cut they've been doing fairly well in Europe. If you can pull out some numbers to contradict that maybe I'll change my mind.. but you cant soo. As for MS being afraid what about Sony being afraid they'll loose market share and already dropping the price? Even after there own execs said there wouldnt be any price cut? I think Sony is more scared then MS.

Nintendo has shipped 400,000 Cubes in Europe since their launch. A number that has been backed up by others in the industry

A lot of those were pre-orders and I'm sure it will slow down. This time of year is slow for consoles. Lets wait until Christmas until we can get a better estimate on how the XBOX is doing. Remember the XBOX launch in the US was awesome. Over 2 million sold. The europe launch was ok but since the price drop its been doing much better. The Japan launch has been slow but sales did go up when they released Halo there. Wait until E3. MS will announce a pricecut for Japan/US. This should help out even more. Plus Morrowind will come out also. IT'll be a good month for the xbox.

Bravo

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[bryanbrunton]

Yes, there were numerous reports around the web that MS pre-April 26th sales were low. Look around the web for yourself. If you can't understand the fact that it was impossible for XBox to hold ~50% of the market at the time from the period of XBox launch up to April 29th (the data points that MS cited), then you can safely be ignored as a true moron.

Thank you for confirming exactly what I said: there are no official reports on actual units shipped/sold for XBox in Europe. The unofficial rumor is 200,000. As the Cube did more than that in its launch week, then we can quite easily say that the XBox is dead and buried in Europe. Why are you asking me for XBox sales info? That's just what I was hoping to get from you.

Go read http://www.elspa.com/. Then try not to cry your eyes out, cause the XBox is sucking so bad in Europe.

The XBox launch in the US was decent. But it was still way outsold by the PS2 and matched by the Cube. What's this babbling about a port of a PC RPG (Morrowind) saving XBox sales? You can come up with something better than that.

The original point remains true: Microsoft has little if no hope in this market with only a sliver of what's available from the US market.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

I can guarantee you based on the pathetic sales of XBox prior to the 29th of April, that there was zero chance of the XBox representing ~50% of sales of next gen consoles in Europe up to that point in time from the XBox launch. Microsoft is feeding you its typical line of bullshit and you are only too happy to open up and swallow.

Great! If you read the article, the numbers were based on research from ChartTrack and Gfx - the source for each number quoted is referenced in the article.

But of course YOU know more than a professional market research organization devoted to performing this kind of analysis and which makes its living off of selling the data from its analysis for money.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[Bravadaz77]

I understand that the European launch was slow. Thats why they had the price cut. Since then the Xbox has been doing really well with almost 50% of the market in Europe. Whine and cry all you want but its true. .

Also your unofficial rumor is fairly inaccurate. The xbox sold more then 200,000 in Europe. I think the estimate is more around ~700,000. Also there are many excellent games coming out for the xbox. Morrowind,BC,Project ego just to name a few.

The truth hurts, and I understand that you have to justify bashing the xbox because it makes you feel better but the facts are the facts. Xbox is doing great in the US and is doing great in Europe. GO back to your kiddie Game cube forum and cry your eyes out to them. Stick to the facts here bud.

Bravo

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[GeckoX]

...facts facts facts facts facts...

And just where the hell are all these facts you're talking about? You're one hell of a hypocrit and _that's_ a fact.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[bryanbrunton]

The truth does hurt. Here it is:

http://www.elspa.com/

You might expect a gaming system that is doing 50% of the business in Europe to be selling 50% of the games. It turns out that at no point has the XBox ever managed to do that. It hasn't even come close.

Where are you facts? Post a link to something besides a Microsoft press release.

Your version of the truth is conviently stuck inside your head.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[56ker]

Once the price of the X-Box & the Gamecube had fallen I predicted a fall in the price of the PS2 weeks ago! Another price drop is being rumoured because people in the U.K. are being put off from buying one by the lack of available games. Also it's from an unknown in the gaming industry and people want to see if it actually gets popular - especially the ones who bought a Dreamcast and don't want to be left with a platform that's unsupported & no more games come out for a year later.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[CHUD-Wretch]

Lets see...a pro XBOX blurb on the MSN site.

Microsoft > MSN > XBOX
what do these things have in common?

Don't let common sense get in the way of your bias.

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[Black Perl]

I would wait for official reports from Microsoft before I would believe thats true.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHeeHeeHaHaHaHaHa

+5, Funny

Re:XBox: Dead in Japan, Dying in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

It just amazes me how many levels you are wrong on.

You complete and utter idiot. This is in the moneycentral news site. The same article can be found on any other financial news site as has been posted already.

Regardless, it's a press release, stupid. The site that it's posted on doesn't matter. It's an MS press release and of course it will contain MS's viewpoint.

I noticed the problems started happening

[pommiekiwifruit]

when these "clone" machines came out (such as Compaq), that didn't perfectly emulate the IBM original.

At the time win95 came out, two PCs with the same motherboard could have every-so-slightly different BIOSes (same version numbers of course) with different bugs.

With my current machine, it could be an overheating CPU (its an athlon), faulty RAM (these days they don't even have parity bits), stretched motherboard (I bought the PC from a high street shop), dodgy device driver (which claims to be written by a US company, who has denied that they ever wrote it), a microsoft bug, or poor quality control by the games publisher. And as I said, copy protection technology is *not* claimed to work on all CD/DVD drives even by the company that wrote it!

FWIW things improved for games when I upgraded from ME to XP, but that killed music programs like Cubasis.

With a console I generally don't have to worry about any of those (although the Famicom (NES) came in several different versions in Japan).

Why Should Nintendo Price Drop?

[Chibi]

Here are the current prices from EB Games

• GameCube - $199
  
• Xbox - $299
  
• PS2 - $199
  

So, why should Nintendo drop their price? The PS2 is currently the same price, but it's also been out a full year longer. That's not reason enough for it to be cheaper, but most people think that way. So, the system to compare price with is the XBox. It's already cheaper, and after the price drop, it'll be the same price.

Nintendo has no real reason to drop their prices, now. The rumored price drop later this year? It'll probably be just in time for Christmas.

Re:Why Should Nintendo Price Drop?

[digital_freedom]

Nintendo realy has to drop their price now because their unit doesn't have a DVD player and has a much smaller library of games. In order to have any console sales this summer, they need to reduce prices in order to come closer to competing with the PS2.

The PS2 is using the price drop to build momentum for Christmas. If Nintendo doesn't want to get left behind the race, they'll need to drop prices and start dishing out the games. I really have yet to see a flagship game for the Gamecube. Whereas PS2 has GTA3, GT A-spec, MGS2, and quite a few other ones that make you want to buy the platform just to play that game.

The XBox has a serious pressure now as the PS2 takes it to Microsoft. Looks like the XBox will have to follow suit for the same reasons. Although Halo rules, they do need a few more jaw-droppers. Sorry Oddworld just didn't do it for me.

Re: Figures are bad enough, no need to misinform

[Ploulack]

As of mid march, they had sold 85000 copies of Dead or Alive in Japan. Source EDGE - April

price drop great for Xbox

[quick_dry_3]

In Australia the price of the XBox was recently dropped by about AU$200 to bring it in cheaper than the PS2 (XBox now sells at about AU$388).

Since then the Xbos has been outselling the PS2 at about 4:1.

To keep everyone who bought an XBox before the price drop happy, MS are giving away an AU$250 package, 2 games + 1 controller. It took 4 days from sending application to receiving the package.

Re:price drop great for Xbox

[Dief_76]

Do you have any figures for the 4:1 ratio?

Considering how low XBox sales were before the price drop (which is one of the biggest price drops I've ever seen, especially for a console which was only released a few months ago), 4:1 over the PS2 still doesn't translate to a large number of sold XBoxen.

Re:price drop great for Xbox

[Kris_J]

Since then the Xbos has been outselling the PS2 at about 4:1

If that's true it's because a whole lot of us considering the purchase of a PS2 have been waiting for the inevitable price drop, not because the Xbox has sold particularly well.

Of the dozen or so people I call friends and the dozen or so people I just started working with, none of them have bought an Xbox or mentioned that they know someone who has -- and gaming consoles do come up during discussions.

Let the party begin

[Anonymous Coward]

Every day I go by the PS2 pallet at Frys and say WTF? $299? When are they EVER going to drop the price? I never buy MSRP, (which is why I suffer thru the soviet-style retail at Frys). I mean, who the fuck is going to come to Frys and their open-box-returns-back-on-the-shelf policy for full list price?
I've been telling my friends "just drop the price $10, and I'll buy it." Now it's dropped $100. Damn!

Microsoft *is* taking a loss

[npsimons]

Where does this crap about Microsoft losing hundreds of dollars per console come from?

Oh, I don't know, maybe someone who knows what the Hell they're talking about, unlike you.

Re:Microsoft *is* taking a loss

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck ARE you talking about? Did you read that article you pointed to? Here, I'll quote it for you, right at the end:

"So it appears that now Nintendo has joined the ranks of console manufacturers that outsource their machine production and take loses.

So there we have it. The myth that was "all consoles are sold below cost"
has been vanquished!"

AFAIK, MS doesn't outsource their production, and therefore don't follow "gord's rule" here. And the last line states that "all consoles sold at a loss" is a MYTH!

And after all that, after ALL THAT, it's just a posting from some guy who owns a rental store! Show me proof RIGHT FROM THE SOURCE. I wanna hear MS say "We lose X dollars on each console". Until then, it's all rumour.

Re:Microsoft *is* taking a loss

[Daetrin]

What the fuck ARE you talking about? Did you read that article you pointed to? Here, I'll quote it for you, right at the end:

So there we have it. The myth that was "all consoles are sold below cost" has been vanquished!"

And did you actually read the article? "Not all consoles are sold at a loss" does _not_ equate to "All consoles are sold at a profit."

They quite clearly stated that the XBox _is_ one of the consoles that is losing money.

The numbers they use are backed up by industry analysts. Here's one of many articles that cites those numbers.

"Microsoft is set to launch the Xbox on Nov. 15 at a retail price of $299. Estimates of Microsoft's cost to build each unit have ranged from $320 to $400. Microsoft representatives would not comment on manufacturing costs."

Microsoft isn't going to tell us how much money they're losing per console, but that doesn't mean that reasonable estimates can't be made by people who know how such things work, and all of those estimates agree that they are losing money although the exact amounts differ.

Re:Microsoft *is* taking a loss

[npsimons]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only voice of reason on slashdot anymore :) Glad to see someone else come to their senses.

To the original poster, and I block quoteth from my originally referenced article:

Anyway, Microsoft is losing money per console sold, not including what they are spending advertising and support. Reports have it fall between $50 to $105 lost per console. MS has only said that they are losing money, and won't comment on how much.

I might add, this article was written before they dropped the price, so tack on another $100 USD to that estimate.

And as to your saying that it's "just some post from a guy who owns a rental store", well, that's more than we can say for you, isn't it? Tell you what, when you run a successful video game rental store for a number of YEARS, I might just believe something you have to say.

Re:Microsoft *is* taking a loss

[Graymalkin]

Do you understand the concepts console manufacturers produce their goods with? If they were losing X dollars per console (which I know is not going to be more than 100$ per console) at the initial release, for every four games per console sold recouped those losses nicely, anything beyond that recoup was profit. Which is exactly as I explained it in Sony's case, the losses incurred in the first run of consoles was recouped by any games that became even remotely popular. If Sony say sold four games for every PS2 sold initially they were not losing any money when you calculate net profits and losses. Microsoft dropping the price is hoping to sell more units to increase demand for the games which let them recoup the losses taken from production of the consoles. Dropping the price a hundred bucks doesn't mean they are taking an extra hundred dollar loss. If the initial run had losses of 50$ per console and they recouped that from sales of games the second production run is naturally going to be cheaper due to an increased availability of components which drops the unit price. If this drop in unit cost is below what they are selling the units on shelves for they can drop the price a hundred bucks and maintain their 50$/unit loss and recoup that by selling more games (because more units are in people's homes). The goal of a console maker following the licensing scheme first widely practiced by Nintendo with the NES (which is what we're talking about) aims to get consoles into as many living rooms as possible despite the cost to the company. Once these games are in homes the games which cost the company nothing to develope make them beaucoup cash to recoup their losses. Nintendo and Sony would not be in business if this model did not work out well.

Re:MicroSoft's downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

The best estimate I ever saw was in EETimes around the time the XBox was released, which took the XBox and stripped it down, showing the component price down to resistor-level. They came out with about $23 loss per box (yes, twenty three dollars, but just parts + manufacturing). Unfortunately, I don't believe the article made it to the online version of EETimes, as I can't find it there.

In any case, it's also possible that their costs have gone down, or have been lower than analysts expected, as it's hard to tell what kind of prices any given corporation can get on the items needed to manufacture these units, let alone the manufacturing costs themselves. Certain things like the CPU and GPU are custom items (though the CPU is based on the P3 and the GPU was the basis for the GeForce 4), and may not come down in price as readily as other items (and RAM always fluctuates, though goes down over the long term), while some things (like the hard drive an many of the low-level components) are sold at prices so near cost that they'll never change until they become rare (fewer people producing them) and increase in cost.

Overall, I'd say it's possible (though not likely) that MS could've had enough of a price drop in the components between the intial run of manufacturing and now that they may still lose the same amount of money at the lower price. Of course, with MS' cash reserves and with one of the console's best selling titles (Halo) being a 1st party game, plus having set out the project with long term goals (5 year product life), it's unlikely that MS will write it off as a failure until the thing really is a complete failure (rather than just not doing well outside the US and not selling as many games as a console that's been out much longer).

Re:Nintendo may not have a choice

[ELCarlsson]

Why does everyone keep thinking that just because the PS2 has a DVD player that it's so much better than the GC? I know people that all they purchased their PS2 for was one or two games and the DVD player. Go out and buy a DVD player! A true DVD player offers many more features and is much more reliable that the PS2. Then go buy a GC and enjoy. The GC is just a pure video game machine. It's what it does and it's good at it. There, I've had my say.

Losses for xBox, not for GameCube

[WillSeattle]

Console manufacturers typically subsidize the cost of the console anywhere from 20-50%, so that it is affordable. They then make the money back on games

But Nintendo actually makes money on both the console and the games. Read the annual report if you don't believe me.

The only reason the xBox isn't dead yet is that Bill G has $40 billion in cash reserves.

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Re:MicroSofts downfall - the numbers

[WillSeattle]

That's $15 * 2 + $40 * 2 + $30 * 3 + $15 + $10 = $225, or a $75 profit on the sale of the XBox and attached games and peripherals.

However, MSFT actually loses between $150 and $200 per console, and based on actual purchases of peripherals and games, they would have to sell 10 games to get close to break even.

And they're not selling more than 2-3 titles per box.

They're toast. Flip them over already.

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A cluster of xBox Linux boxen?

[WillSeattle]

Well, if they're losing $100 to $150 on the $300 xBox, and the price drops to $149, then you can really distort their metrics by buying 10 xBox, turning them into Linux boxen (or BSD perhaps), and hitting them where it hurts.

The xBox needed to sell 8-10 games to break even at the $300 price point. If they're down to $149, with no game sales (oh, c'mon, buy one Halo game if they bundle it for free), then you just hit the Evil Empire with a body blow of a few thousand dollars and got some nice hardware out of the deal ...

Economics is a cruel mistress.

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Can't hurt Nintendo, they're getting record sales

[WillSeattle]

Right now they can't even keep the GameCube on the shelves in Europe or Japan, and are barely able to keep up with demand in the US.

Remember, they have the sweet spot. Their target audience is women and kids, both of which are major growth sectors, and the ports are flying off the shelves at the game dev shops for their machine. Plus they actually make money on each GameCube they sell, unlike PS2 or xBox.

With hurt like that, who needs pain?

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Its called.

[Vermifax]

Loss leading. Razor blade companies seems to be the canonical example.

Re:Nintendo may not have a choice

[nat5an]

Word. I bought the PS2 with the idea that I'd also be able to use it as a DVD player. Yeah, it's kind of crappy for a DVD player, not to mention mine (along with many others) developed a condition where it tends to reject DVDs. In short, I finally broke down and bought a real DVD player. I'm very happy with the PS2 as a gaming system, but a DVD player it ain't.

Xbox will not survive

[npsimons]

However, don't let facts get in the way of your analysis.

I just *love* how the link supporting your argument is to an msn.com site. Let's try something different, shall we? How about an independant analysis?

Re:Xbox will not survive

[donutello]

Idiot. It's a press release.

The link was to moneycentral. You can find the same article at Yahoo!, CBS Marketwatch, ClearStation and any other financial news site you care to read.

Re:Xbox will not survive

[bryanbrunton]

Let's go over this again...

You are the idiot. The press release doesn't make any sense (see my reply to your original post). Simply because Microsoft says something doesn't mean it is true.

Re:Xbox will not survive

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply because Microsoft says something doesn't mean it is true.

Congratulations! Did you figure that out all by yourself or did you have help?

Do I have to spell out every single word to you? It's a press release. It is implied that that is what the company states. Instead you were making stupid arguments about the website it was posted at.

The article quotes external references - ChartTracks and Gfx for the data.

to sum it up

[Anonymous Coward]

going by what you have said, a half bred pee cee is better at console games than consoles. therefore, if there is a dedicated OS for games, full fledged pee cees should kick major butt.

someone should start writing a GameOS...

Microsoft can report about Microsoft, but...

[roesti]

Since [the Xbox price cut on 26 April], XBOX sales are neck and neck with PS2 sales.

Isn't there something missing from the MSN report? Something along the lines of "MSN Money is a Microsoft service"? Or perhaps "this article is a paid advertisement"? Something, at least, to mention that Microsoft have their own news site as well.

Of course, here in Australia, we haven't seen the half of it yet. Xbox sales were slow, Microsoft announced a 40% price drop, Xbox has outsold Playstation 2 fairly easily for two weeks. The Beeb was reporting a similar phenomenon in Europe. Then again, Nintendo are reporting "record-breaking" pre-orders for Gamecube - the machine gets released this Friday - and promised a price drop of nearly 25%. We'll have to wait and see how that pans out.

None of this is helping Xbox in Japan, where there is no price decrease in effect - and where Xbox is being outsold by just about everything, including Dreamcast, and where things would have been disastrous without Dead Or Alive 3. Also, Xbox is (apparently) starting to fall behind Gamecube in the States, in terms of sales figures and thus installed base. Expect announcements sooner rather than later.

Re:XBox and Australia

[Kris_J]

The Xbox is suffering pretty badly here in Australia and the GameCube isn't even out here yet (2 days to go). Sucks to be Microsoft.

Meanwhile, can anyone confirm that the PS2 price will be dropping by a third here? I wouldn't mind picking one up for A$320.

Quote more microsoft independent websites please

[Smid]

I mean msn doesn't show any editorial bias towards their parent company at all does it?

Smid

Price Drop!

[JimmyZ]

PS2 $199
XBox $199
PS1 $49

Also Micro$oft has dropped the price on many of the accessories... finally. Still, the only reason to buy an XBox though is for Halo. So, if you've beat Halo and are bored with it, the XBox is worthless.

-jz

Re:MicroSoft's downfall

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft doesn't release figures for their individual product lines, but microsoft's cost of the goods, not including all the R&D and marketing, they sell jumped by almost 660 million from the september to the december quarter. The revenue for the segment that includes X-Box also increased by 690 million, but other products in that segment should have increased as well it includes their other consumer products, and MSN. Whether or not X-Boxes made or lost money depends on how much other stuff they sold. Also remember that European prices were much higher than US prices. When introduced X-Boxes were going for $299 the equivalent to £199. Costs are estimated by looking at parts costs, adding manufacturing costs, and then estimating a retail markup. Most of the analysts I have seen estimated production costs were about $300, and the retail markup was about 25%. This leads to a loss per unit of about $75 at the original prices and unit costs. Finally, on the analyst note, while Henry and the other analysts have to form their own estimates, they generally get help in the form of revenue and earnings guidance from the company. Also, there are ways of sending information to someone without briefing them. The analyst could ask is this close, and interpret the response.

it does??

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what the above post means....what does it do? (or he think it does?)