Slashdot Mirror
Is This Moon Three?
tetrad writes "The BBC reports that a new object has been discovered orbiting Earth. It's possible that it's just a piece of space junk, but more likely it is a rock that has been recently (in the last year) captured by our planet's gravitational field. If the object is confirmed to be natural, this would be Earth's third moon. (Did you know there were two already?)" Here's our earlier mention of Earth's alleged second moon. Update: 09/12 04:52 GMT by T : Reader cscx adds a link to an article running on space.com which says this newfound object may be some trash from the Apollo missions.
Doesnt an orbiting object need to be of some specific minimum size? or does Saturn have billions of moons that just end up looking like rings?
just arrived? nah, nah, nah... it's a camouflaged spy device from an alien civilization.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Just out of curiosity, what is the scientific criterion for a moon?
:)
The "trojan asteroid" described in the previous story is only 3 miles wide and take 770 years to orbit the earth. That is not what elementary schoolteachers say is a moon, a la Jupiter's many moons... giants like Europa and IO.
I also heard a while back that Charon might not be a real moon either, because of size or rotation or something? Huh?
I'm not versed in astronomy enough to know, so does anyone have an answer for laypeople, so I can talk with people at work about this?
Space.com
God really is trying to moon us. Maybe we should practice asteroid demolition on these things so we are less likely to screw up if there's one coming straight at us.
to the debate about what constitutes a moon....
Even if this does turn out to be a natural object, it is probable too small to be of any significance. One of these days we'll have to distinguish between a large boulder in space and a moon. Otherwise we might have to start counting particles of space dust.
Maybe this is just fate's way of teasing us. Quite a bit of talk lately that we are overdue for a deadly asteroid collision. Maybe we are going to be gaining more and more objects locked in our gravitational field, just to make us nervous. Similar to vultures circling overhead.
Excuse me. How many objects are obiting the earth now? Twenty!? I'll be moving to Mars tommorow.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
yes what is the criteria for a moon. and if its not a piece of alien stuff, maybe its that truck from star trek voyager. or, if you remember that bbspot article about the Fly Feature of win XP!
This post was brought to you by the number 584811 and the characters / and .
Nasa and I had our hopes of a 4th moon dashed when that NSync kid couldn't cough up the money on time. He hadn't even read the fine print regarding a conditional return.
If you think
I thought it was the responsibility of NORAD to track space junk. Their job is to insure that there isn't an incoming ICBM amongst the junk. What do they have to say?
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
...has decided to deploy an advanced warning system, due to the number of missiles coming from Earth that have been hitting or narrowly missing Mars in recent years. While planetary defenses have had a decent intercept rate, some of the missiles are still getting through. Hopefully the new early warning system will enable the Martian Space Defense to improve intercept rates considerably.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
We all have grown up with the notion that there are three earth-orbiting natural satlites, but did you know that there is no mention of the third satelite in any media before 2002!
It's true!
See, it's all a plot of the Libertarians - they have been secretly construcing this "third moon" in order to live there and to not pay any of their taxes - taxes that you and I need in order to buy delicious governemnt cheese!
Being cheap bastards, this new moon is nesesairly small - but if you look at it with a high-power "telescope", then you'll realise that this "moon" has been meticulously constructed to look like Montanna!
Complete with Moon-Sheep!
I urge you, the right minded American, to rise up and take a stand! No third moon, unless taxes are to be paid on it.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Just how big does a piece of spave junk have to be before it becomes a moon? I mean, surely my collection of neat quartz crystals wouldn't count because they are all about the size of a quarter.
This kinda reminds me of the move "Signs"... This thing appeared in our skys, we don't know what it is... Wait till three lights appear in Mexico City...
Perhaps we should check inside it
DCMonkey
That's no moon ... it's a space station.
It would be cool to do some scientific experiements on this thing. Maybe even put a "moon 3 cam" or whatever on it.
By the way, I've always wondered- why don't we have a moon cam (maybe we do?)? Or some telescoping equipment on the moon to peer even further into our universe? How hard would it be to put a camera on the moon and have it beam pictures to a nearby satellite or whatever?
Hey! let's send a manned mission to it so that the conspiracy nuts can have yet another moon mission they can claim was hoaxed.
*grin*
The Digital Sorceress
Oh no, the DEATH STAR
Got Code?
Hmmm. Pretty funny how the "moon" is known as J002E2 and you were modded down as offtopic. Typical.
It's just the flag guy for the Vogon construction fleet.
As I recall (and I apologize if I get this wrong; we're working with twenty-years-ago memories here) the key point was the relative strength of the gravitational attraction between the sun and moon, and between the earth and moon. I think the sun attracts the moon just a fraction more strongly than the earth does. The result is that at no time does the moon move away from the sun and towards the earth, and it does the opposite at some points in its orbit.
I can't remember the details so I won't post more, but with luck someone else can dig this up.
You mean with all the $$$ being spent on satellite technology, ultra-powerful telescopes, space exploration and such no one can identify the f^%king thing?!?!
:-)
Personally, I don't think we're getting our money's worth and I want a refund!
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither!"
Cruithne doesn't orbit the Earth, rather it shares our orbit around the sun.
I thought we were only supposed to get a moon every few thousand years when that hot french chick from 5th element destoys the evil forces with light shouting from her mouth.
or black monolith?
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
Read this and this and have a good laugh. Go Buzz, go !!!
Non-Linux Penguins ?
If you take into account Sun Myung Moon and Keith Moon...
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
I'm missing something. I thought a moon was an object that orbited a planet. Cruithne's orbit is profoundly perturbed by the Earth's gravity, but it stil orbits the sun.
Are any of these large enough to cause damage were they to go into orbital decay? I suppose there's probably a minimum size limit before something is called a "moon" as opposed to a normal orbiting "satellite."
Moon #1 is stable I'm sure, but it would be somewhat scary if one of these went off course and decided to make a landing.
If you've seen the movie "Time Machine", the moon crashes into Earth once its mass has been lower due to colonization (and blowing big chunks in it). I wonder if something like this might eventually happen if the moon were to be bumped by another satellite, etc.
We probably won't need to do a lot of blasting to colonize though. I remember hearing a long time ago that the moon was actually quite hollow in place. Apparently a semi crash-landing on it had it vibrating a bit gonglike at once point in time.
Another theory I remember reading is that Moon #1 was part of earth before something blew them apart and they eventually spun themselves back into a spheroid shape.
The lunarians are watching us from those crater-holes - phorm
No, it's a trap!
This also happens in Tibet and Southern California.
Hey, see that moon? No that one there. I think that moon is a bit of a spy. Yes I do. There was a moon like that on the summer of my sixteenth year. Some say I was sixteen but [sigh] I don't know. And there was a girl, too; her name was Marie. At night together we would walk down by the sea and oh my god if you could see the body on this woman. The way at night her long legs would stick into the moist night sand like gods own barge poles, you know. And I longed to tell her the feeling I had in my heart for her but the words would not come, they would not come through my spotty adolescent face, they would not come through my angry hair or my sweaty feet or any other part on this body that I know call a man. So the words je t'aime were never passed between us but the moon, yes, that moon spied on us.
Any small object near the earth-moon system sees a gravitational potential that is static (in some frame of reference.) The object either has enough energy to not be bound to the system, or it does not. So how is the capture supposed to take place? An object can't be captured by simply wandering into the vicinity of the earth, it needs some way to change it's energy - such as a collision with another object, which seems unlikely - space is big, and things rarely collide up there.
Unless there is some secret space-mining project which is deliberatly intercepting space rocks and slowing them down enough to keep them bound so they can extract space juice out of them...
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
As mentioned above, Cruithe was reported on slashdot previously.
Matt
I dub thee Stanley ...
I dub thee Craftsman
I dub thee Snap-On
I dub thee Russian Airsickness Bag
I dub thee Paint Chip
I dub thee Scott Evil's Secret Hideout
I dub thee
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
to anybody that Earth's big moon (the one on which mankind made a great step) isn't a moon at all. Seeing it's sheer size compared to earth (about one quarter of earth's diameter), I would rather call earth-moon a dual-planet-system, same like dual-suns.
Bah, typical human arrogance. Just like with us being the top of evolution.
So, the 1st moon out there we started calling "Moon" The second got something I can't pronounce, Crithne. The third receives the sad designation J002E2. What's up with that?
1st kid named "Boy", 2nd named "Methusala" and 3rd named "3".
Here is an example of the obvious need of scientists to receive more liberal arts education and some ethics schooling!
Anything you say will be held against you.
Why do we only see news of this on the BBC page? I've not once seen mention of second or third moons on MSNBC, CNN, or any of the other online news places. I'm starting to consider the BBC as the National Enquirer of online news.
To see the data:
They have discovered the Death Star before its completion and i fear the plans to it maybe have been leaked to the rebels. Luckly we can prevent any rebels from circumventing its security flaws with the DMCA. Prep the fleet lawyer drones and prepare to launch.
Maybe we can sell him to the chinese to use in their space program, I hear they have not worked out all the kinks yet.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Earth's second one is called Cruithne. It was discovered in 1986 and it takes a convoluted horseshoe path around our planet as it is tossed about by the Earth's and the Moon's gravity.
Umm, Cruithne's orbit is a horseshoe around the SUN in Earths orbit. Not around Earth.
The following is taken from Near-Earth Asteroid 3753 Cruithne Frequently Asked Questions
Does asteroid 3753 Cruithne orbit the Earth like a moon or satellite?
No. The asteroid's behaviour is more complicated than that: it doesn't orbit the Earth, but rather it shares the Earth's orbit. The relationship of a moon to its planet is called a two-body because there are only two important players (ie. the moon and the planet). However, in the case of Cruithne, the Earth and the asteroid both share the same orbit about the Sun, but are choreographed in such a away as to remain stable and avoid colliding with each other. This is called a three-body relationship as there are three main players: the Earth, the asteroid and the Sun.
It looks just like a..........Big Boy! Check for Osama!
Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
Wasn't able to log on.....
A goal is a dream with a deadline
I hear there's some really good calamari on Cruithne. Some weird blue loop that seems to lead to other universes too, but mainly, good calamari.
It's a ufo, and they have just made this cropcircle with a binary message in it.
:)
hmm,,, naaah, me thinks it's just a rock
And what classifies an object as a planet, shouldn't have a certain size or something? I remember something about a planet being "downgraded".
my sig
... oh wait, yes it is...
If you google for "Cruithne," the name of the second "moon," you'll find that researchers think there are two other objects in strange orbits like Cruithne's. That would make this new discovery the fifth.
Beat that, Jupiter!
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
The BBC reports that a new object has been discovered orbiting Earth. It's possible that it's just a piece of space junk
Or maybe it's possible that your fucking telescope has a smudge on it and it's nothing at all. Come on, can't they fucking check whether or not it's at least a rock before they post an article about Earth's third moon.
Who knows, it could just be Lance Bass.
Live web cams
I didn't even think we had one, let alone three!
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
--Nasa's Paul Chodas says the object must have arrived quite recently or else it would have been easily detected by any of several automated sky surveys that astronomers are conducting.--
Not if it was alien and was hiding on the moons' dark side. It also might be a giant prism of some sort. Oh well back to OZ.
I find it amazing that a amateur found this.
You would think that with all the money that must be spent by governments etc... that this kind of thing would be discovered by someone else first!
From the article
An amateur astronomer may have found another moon of the Earth
And
It was discovered by Bill Yeung from his observatory in Arizona
Seems like it would be embarrassing to others
Now I'll have to have my astrology chart redone. You finally get good events coming your way, and then "bampf", they throw a new moon at you.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
What exactly is a moon? A natural satellite revolving around a planet.
Of all the definitions of a moon that's generally about as clear as they get. Perhaps it's time we decide to define what makes something a moon. I don't think having a defined set size is going to do it. We need some way to define what is a moon and what is just some crap floating around.
A true moon should be a natural object (not man made). A moon should be smaller than then planet it orbits (or less massive). The moon must orbit the planet so that its orbit's centerpoint is within the planet, or very close - any more and then it would probaly have to be a double-planet. Well that covers too big and probably makes charon the 10th planet. A moon should also have an orbit that is reasonably stable. If the orbit is not stable, it's not worth bothering with calling it a moon as it won't be there long. The moon should be in size approximately some percentage of the planet's diameter say at least 1% of the planet's diameter (This atleast covers all the named moons of Jupiter but would also mean the minimum size of any Terrestrial moon would be only 7 meters) Or perhaps by relative mass - which would allow for smaller Jovian moons, but require larger Terrestrial ones.
And what about an object that orbits both a planet and another moon? Is it a moon too or just a satellite, or can we make up a new word? What about an object that orbits a point of equalibrium between two celestial bodies but orbits neither? Although I know of none, what about an object that orbits both a planet and a star? Nobody's thought of defining these better since the 17th Century? How can you call this stuff science when your terms are so vague? And if these are defined better, why isn't there some nifty show all about it all over PBS and the Science Channel?
I am not an expert in these matters, these are just my ideas. - Ok experts, lets hear what you can come up with.
See the Pictures of the Flood of '08
I can't believe that RPG.net scooped slashdot on this subject (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1 5238) and almost scooped them on the Quake Adventure too!
"Oh wait, it is a moon after all. My bad."
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
And in other news today, McDonald's Corporation has announced it will lower the fat content of it's french fries. The multinational corporation has stated that it hopes the lower fat content in American diets will prevent any more large objects from falling under Earth's ever-increasing gravitational pull.
Try the "far side of the moon", since there is no dark side of the moon.
Anytime you have something (Foo) orbiting something else (Bar), i.e., once the requirements of "orbit" are met, there are five points of gravitational equilibrium set up amongst the two bodies. They're called LaGrange points. The last two, L4 and L5, are on Foo's orbit around Bar, sixty degrees ahead of Foo (L4) and sixty degrees behind (L5).
L4 and L5 by themselves, ignoring L1-L3, are often called Trojan points, named for this particular group of satellites.
As for the defintion of moon versus just another satellite in general, I believe it has to do with respective mass ratios, and where the fulcrum point of rotation is between the two bodies. Right now our own moon isn't in a true rotation around us, we're in a sort of dumbbell tumble, and the center of the dumbbell is a bit below the ground.
(Actual astronomers please correct me, I'm on a number of narcotic-containing painkillers right now and could have gotten some words tumbled.)
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
If you ever study the 'Trojans', you know that there are huge bodies of apparent moonlets that sit on a sixty-degree angle from Jupiter's, directly along Jupiter's orbit from the sun. (They are apparently held in such a strange place by the gravity of Jupiter vs. the gravity of Sol.)
THis is actually really interesting because it indicates that these are on the L4 and L5 points relative to Jupiter and the Sun. For those that don't know the Lagrange points are the points where the gravity from the orbiting and orbited bodies are equal, and of the five points, only 2 are stable (L4 and L5). This is why, after the Moon, why the L4 and L5 points will be very important politically, economically, and militarily, assuming we want to have commercial relations with Mars...
But this new object is on a 50 day orbit around earth, so it is not on L4 or L5.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Since no one knows for sure just what it is, by definition, it is a UFO, an Unidentified Flying Object. That doesn't prove that it's alien, but it could be. If it is a moon, those nasty Zhti Ti Kofft will put a death ray on it.
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
...why my key policies never get implemented. I hope the newspaper prints a retraction.
The music industry is going to ban any mention of multiple moons. For they have thousands of songs that would be obsolete if word got out.
"Moons River"
"Blue Moons"
"Sad Moons Nite"
Etc. Etc. Etc.
"We must protect the integrity and consistency of our content", said an anonymous industry spokesperson. "If you have to force legislation by any means available, we will."
Table-ized A.I.
The discoverers of Earth's second moon, 3753 Cruithne, announced the discovery of "moons" three and four - 1998 UP1 and 2000 PH5 - almost exactly a year ago, September 18, 2001. See http: //www.astro.queensu.ca/~wiegert/3753/3753.html for more details.
The Page of #2 Cruithne's Discover has details on the weird "resonant" orbit of #2. #3 and #4 are from same team, and are equally weird. Note that "Horseshoe orbit" is relative to the supposed primary (Earth) as opposed to the actual primary (Sun) around which the pair are mutually resonant. The previously referenced space.com article said it had a booster-like orbit, implying chaotic, but didn't indicate if it was a ?stable? chaotic orbit, a single-lagrange-point orbit, or a quasi-stable multi-lagrangian horseshoe orbit of a temporary (10kyears) or what.
OK, all together now:
B.G. DeSylva, 1927, from _Good News_, (modified)
The moon belongs to everyone,
The best things in life are three.
The stars belong to everyone,
They gleam there for you and me.
The flowers in spring, the robins that sing,
The moonbeams that shine, they're yours, they're mine.
And love can come to everyone,
The best things in life are three.
Of course, Trinitarians could say
"And God belongs to everyone
The best things in life are Three."
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
You mean that thing that keeps flying around our world without doing anything constructive? It's called a troll.
It's the LEXX!!
If I decide to start doing something actively in the field of space/astronomy (In addition to Seti@home) I will find an asteroid and name it "SLASHDOT" instead of something like J002E2 (Pronounced how?). Then everyone can make silly posts about the REAL slashdot effect that will end the world.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
It's a space station!
c'mon... SOMEBODY had to say it
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
Not quite.. but check out "Footfall" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
Oh, that would be the Vogon advanced surveying team, laying out a new interspace by-pass. Everyone don't forget your towel!
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
I could swear that I read about the Mushroom planet and several "voyages" to it when I was younger. It was not really a planet of course, as it orbited the earth, closer than the moon. But it was small so I am sure the center of gravity was within the earth. Inhabited too as I recall....
Actually, everyone is in fact saying that it's a UFO. One of Earth origin (unless it's natural).
According to NEO, "J002E3 was not a minor planet (Sept. 6.68 UT)". Does this means that they've already confirmed that it's space junk?
The boys an NASA pointed the Hubble space telescope at our 'third moon' today to confirm or deny the concept that it is space junk rather than a celestial body. The image hubble returned shocked the scientific community. Dr. Steven Beckwith, director of the Space Telescope Science Institute ( which carries out the scientific mission of the Hubble Space Telescope ), was quoted as saying, "My God, it's full of stars."
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
...then, since the barycenter is inside the Earth, the Moon is a moon.
Technically we did pay taxes on the moon. The parts didn't come from nowhere you know. Thankyou for your time.
Whether or not something is a "moon" is really a function of the language, more than the details of its size, orbital distance, etc. Remember that, at least in English, dictionaries are descriptive, not proscriptive -- that is, they give usages, not definitions. The language changes and evolves on its own; what is considered "correct" is really nothing more than popular opinion. Of course, different ways of communicating can be more or less useful or efficient, so it's not like it doesn't matter whether we use a word to mean one thing or another.
But there's no "official" definition of what a "moon" is, unless you happen to accept the particular definition of a particular person or group. If it's useful to call this 3-mile chunk of rock a "moon," then people probably will. If it's misleading or confusing, then (hopefully) people won't.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Luna is a harsh mistress.
Cruithne is a drunken whore.
This little thing is a street urchin that gives blow jobs for crack money.
M0571y H@rml355.
After the parameters of its orbit are known with good precision, one can calculate the object's position in any time in the past and see if it "goes away" at some time in the past.
Of course, capture is only possible in 3-body system (or more). Eart alone can only "capture" an object by its surface or the atmosphere. Assistance of Moon, Sun or other planets is required, so they must be included in calculations.
Obviously it must be a UFO.
As for our second alleged moon: it is not a moon!
:b
It orbits the sun in a horseshoe-shaped orbit that goes quite a distance above and below the elliptical plane. The horseshoe orbits overlap, but don't take 770 years. However, because these horseshoe-shaped orbits overlap, Cruithne eventually goes all the way around the sun. It is this that takes 770 years.
It is affected by Earth's gravity (indeed, that is why its orbit is shaped like a horseshoe), but that doesn't make it a satellite of Earth.
Therefore, this "third" moon is actually the second.
I'm quite sure that Luna is the techincal name for the first moon that humans noticed orbiting Earth. Why do I think this? It fits the pattern of the true name of the sun, the other major body that is readibly visible to us earthlings.
:)
"the sun" actually = "sol" (latin in origin, i believe)
"the moon" actually = "luna" (latin in origin, i believe).
It makes sense to me, but then again, I dunno what validity that holds.
Sorry, someone had to say it...
I just thought of the old LucasArts adventure game, "The Dig." I poked around on the LucasArts website for any info on it, but couldn't find anything. I could google, but I'm lazy. I'll just describe the thing.
Big rock shows up in orbit around Earth. Five people head up to take a look-see. Three people go EVA and discover it's hollow. They fiddle around inside it for a bit and it whips off and ridiculously high speeds to whisk them away to a mostly dead planet. They fix the planet, even though the German guy went nuts.
Anyone else remember this game?
In Soviet Russia, Beowulf cluster imagines you!
Yes, but from a geocentric viewpoint, the moon's path describes a circle with the earth at the center. From that same POV, Cruithne follows a kind of horseshoe with the sun at the center.
That's not a moon, that's the mothership! Mama, come and get me! I'm ready!
Money for nothing, pix for free
Specifically, there are two two more near-Earth asteroids known to be currently in resonant states similar to those of Cruithne.
More than mere navel gazing.
So that's what Nethack meant when it said "be careful - new moon tonight"...
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
Scientists think a newly-found object orbiting the Earth could be a remnant from the Apollo era.
Experts at Nasa's Jet Propulsion Laboratory believe its brightness and distance shows it's a rocket booster.
'J002E3' was discovered on September 3 and listed by scientists as a minor planet or asteroid.
But Nasa's Donald Yeomans believes that designation is erroneous.
He told Space.com: "It's most likely a spacecraft. It's not likely to be a natural object, not in that kind of orbit."
He said minor planets or asteroids tend to be on strange orbits gravitationally-influenced by the Sun. This does not appear to be the case with this object.
Nasa are currently running computer calculations and expect to be able to identify the object conclusively soon.
Story filed: 10:39 Thursday 12th September 2002
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
If the path of an object is concave with respect to the sun, the object is a planet.
In the case of the Earth/Moon system, it is called a double planet because the path of the moon from the point of view of the sun in strictly concave -- that is it dosn't loop back on itself as do other moons.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Que Luna! Que bella Luna!
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
I hear they have not worked out all the kinks yet
Don't you mean chinks? Sorry.
After you posted the text I read it again. No mention of j002e2 (or j002e3). The object he found was designated 2002BJ2 . With an aphelion of 3.4 and a period of 1071 days, it is definitely not orbiting the Earth.
Magius_AR
Couldn't they take the *spectrum* of the object? That should be able to determine if it is man-made (Apollo left-overs, for example), or a space rock.
Perhaps it is too dim to get a spectrum of. But, if they try hard/long enough eventually you can get a "print" I believe.
Table-ized A.I.
I posted this last time. Hope it helps.
The funny thing is, I followed the link to the older story, and started reading comments. I was reading this one and thought, "Hey I remember reading that book. Wow this is written in a way I can really understand. OK that makes sense." Then I noticed that I'd written it.
Constitutionally Correct
Just a link to some more info.