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Build Your Own Mac
DaytonCIM writes "TechTV has a great article by Kevin Rose on how to build your own Mac: 'When it comes to PCs, geeks usually make a decision between buying a prebuilt computer or building one, component by component. This isn't true when it comes to Macintoshes. You're stuck with whatever Apple has to offer, with only a few measly dollars differentiating the products from retailer to retailer.' It will be broadcast on The Screen Savers today."
I think this was the link
prebuilt, or open building isn't holding me back from using a Mac, the lack of software(*coughgamescough*) is. Geez, get it right. :)
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I made my own but found I kept dropping the transistors on the carpet and losing them.
... is why a desk lamp is missing from the list of components :) These lamp-like macs would probably be the most fun ones to build...
I can't afford a real one, but I guess the effort would be worth putting something like this together.
I was able to build a 500mhz G3 based iMac for under 300$ from parts I picked up on e-bay. I then installed it into a Marathon iRack 1U case.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
I can't believe it
All these guys usually talk about on their channel is how great XP is. Sure their webpage has linux links, but gee-willikers, could they get any deeper into bill's pockets on the air?
ya--i don't know. who cares anyway.
I did what this article describes. In an effort to minimize my investment, I bought the components individually from ebay and online stores, put it all together, and had a custom PowerMac. The problem is that some of those components aren't brand new, and they may very well fail. Then you're left with a cheap-ass PowerMac that needs a new power supply. And one of the PCI slots is a little flakey. And...
It's easier to just buy a used PowerMac on ebay (or from a friend), which is what I ended up doing after I pieced together the parts individually. I still play around with that Frankenstein Mac, but it's not as useful as the used PowerMac.
However, if you invest in newer parts, I think you'll have better success than me. The stuff I bought was pretty old (and damn cheap).
I didn't know you spoke Dutch!
-FF
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
This 480 hours of labor saves you all sorts of money, even after you have to spend $20 on tools and junk that you need to jimmy the stuff together.
Seems more unique to me. Apple needs to stop playing catchup with Amiga.
(Please don't slaughter me or my karma for saying that. My iBook is name brand, and if not for the threaded screws it would be heavily customized.)
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
apple.com/games seems theres plenty there
Q3, Black and White.. I'll let you read the site
We've all seen this before, haven't we?
Technically no - but expect this information to be re-hashed here
My Ass hurts.
This topic should be called:
"How you COULD have built your own Mac, before the info got Slashdotted"
Time travel is possible. We are quickly heading for 1984.
In the old days these were called CAT Macs. or catalog Macs.(circa 1987-1994) There wer a few companies that specalized in building custom enclosures for Mac IIs and such. ATS or Atlanta Technical Specalists built a great product. John Yaeger came up with the design and production of cutting up PC AT cases and mounting custom power supplies, logic board plates and port covers to give enough room to make some killer Macs of the day.
Those were the days when Larry Pina was king.
For the price of the processor you can have a reasonable PC.
This is not a troll, just a note of what happens when hardware is made in small quantities, and is not actively updated as fast as the competition.
In the land of PC's, people that want the absolute best, or the absolute cheapest build their own.
In the land of Apple, if you want the best, buy it directly from Apple. Cheapest? Probably eBay.
Hilariously true.
dual 1GHz, internal dvd, internal zip, heavy on the ram, some Mac OsX, printer and scanner on the side. Oh, and a large tower to go with that! Thank you! Seriously, is this going to save anybody money? No. If it's for internal component, I like external ones better. Why not just buy the external components, they're SCSI right. Portable computer to computer. The only benefit I see is the possibility of making one computer out of two broken ones or something similiar. Can you even by PPC chips seperately?
So this is a link to a very limited 1 page summary, of an article that was covered on /. in September.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
The price is still not competitive. I can build a comparable PC for 60% of the cost of this Mac. I like MacOS X, but I do not need another primary computer. I would like to own a decently powerful Mac, but I am not willing to spend a grand to build or buy something which would be used only rarely, and which is no more powerful than the budget box from Ars Technica.
So far, my only choice has been to buy used, and even then prices are often out of line with the performance of the machine.
This is totally off topic, and should probably be moderated as such, but I just wanted to say that Kevin Rose is a really, really, really great guy.
:)
And he didn't punch me when I made fun of him drawing on his face when I co-hosted his show.
Can you buy surplus cases on the net that will fit the mac motherboard?
I think somewhere along the line, Slashdot.org: The Techie Menace became Slashdot.org: Attack of the Dupes...
Build my own mac?
...
I used to do that all the time, was easy...
2 all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese
What the hell is that? They're called motherboards! No wonder the Mac market cant keep up with the PC market, they can't even come up with the right names for components.
PCs are *supposed* to look ugly, so it doesnt matter whether u assemble them yourself or buy a branded one. This is not the case with Apples. They are *supoosed* to look cool, but they wont be cool if u make them yourself.
Yep. We've definately seen it before.
OR you could build your own PC and buy a Mercedes with the money you saved.
plenty != good.
I know a lot of MAC enthusiasts here will start commenting that "See you can build a mac just like you can a pc!" and I myself don't wish to start a flame war here but Building a MAC is no where near the ease of building a PC.
For a PC you need 2 main things the parts and 1 Screwdriver.
Building a MAC on the otherhand requires the parts, a Screwdriver, a Wire cutter, Dremel and cutting discs, 4" nylon wire ties, Electrical tape, Die, tap, and drill - (see the macoptz link on the article if you don't believe me)
The reason for this is because Apple - although they sell parts separately DOES NOT SELL THE MAC CASES BY THEMSELVES - so in order to make your powersuply and mac board work with a pc case requires all the time and effort of making a custom mod of your pc box. IMHO a very time consuming process unless you do that sort of thing on a regular basis and have all your stuff readily at hand.
I'm totally in favor of people trying this - just be forwarned that this is not a simple buy the parts slap the pieces together turn it on project - it's time consuming and requires a lot more tools and skill than needed for pc building.
Ave Molech Setting
I RTFA, but you basically buy *the* proc, *the* mobo and put it together yourself.
You still don't have all that much variety in your new 'mac'.. No more than if you bought a prebuilt and changed the videocard.
When I have time I'll crunch the numbers, but I doubt that all-told its any cheaper. I was under the impression that aftermarket Mac mobo's were quite pricy.
It's nice for that 'look what I did' feeling, but it'd be much nicer to see cheaper commodity hardware.
Then I might be interested in putting one together to see what OSX is all about, as I'd never pay so much for any pre-built desktop. Unless it had a creamy nougat center. Mmmmm.. Nougat.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
If I build it, does that make it an iMac?
Operator, give me the number for 911!
...just don't try to install GNU-Darwin on it. ;D
BTW, Mac OS X 10.2.3 was just released via Software Update. Check my journal for more info.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
The link for the motherboard in the story points to a refurbished motherboard which also costs $200!
I have built systems for the last ten years not because of the geek factor, but because most premanufactured systems are crap, and the ones that aren't cost way too much money.
given that I think most are looking for quality, who would put a refurbished motherboard in their system, let a lone a $200 one.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Who gives a shit if you can't stick the whole thing in a riced up ColorCase with neon lights, LEDs and water-cooled CPU? NOBODY. So fuck it.
--
The processor costs $700! For the price of the processor alone, anyone can build a complete Athlon XP2400+ nforce2 system.
TOP SECRET RECIPE
INGREDIENTS
1 sesame-seed hamburger bun
Half of an additional hamburger bun
1/4 pound ground beef
Dash salt
1 tablespoon Kraft Thousand Island dressing
1 teaspoon finely diced onion
1/2 cup chopped lettuce
1 slice American cheese
2 to 3 dill pickle slices
INSTRUCTIONS
1. With a serrated knife, cut the top off the extra bun half, leaving about a 3/4-inch-thick slice. This will be the middle bun in your sandwich.
2. Place the three bun halves on a hot pan or griddle, face down, and toast them to a light brown. Set aside, but keep the pan hot.
3. Divide the ground beef in half and press into two thin patties slightly larger than the bun.
4. Cook the patties in the hot pan over medium heat for 2 to 3 minutes on each side. Salt lightly.
5. Build the burger in the following stacking order from the bottom up:
bottom bun
half of dressing
half of onion
half of lettuce
American cheese
beef patty
middle bun
remainder of dressing
remainder of onion
remainder of lettuce
pickle slices
beef patty
top bun
How to Download YouTube Videos
As both a Mac and PC owner :
One of the main points (beside price) of building your own computer is to be able to choose your components, which you dont really have when it comes down to building a Mac since the supported hardware list is so small. _Drivers_ are the biggest hurdle to putting your own Mac together. Unless you want to run Yellow Dog Linux on it, but then it's not a Mac anymore, is it?
You cannot even use standard PC video cards on a Mac, since the Mac architecture expects extension cards to have OpenFirmware compliant firmware. Hence, nice Mac-specific NVidia AGP cards that wont fit anywhere else. Again, there are ways around that, but reliabiality suffers.
-- Home is where you eat your heart out.
ANd U CAN't MAKe Me!!! :)
"Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING."
No shit sherlock, that's the point. Whoever came up with THAT idea is an idiot.
Oh.. you've just reminded me of something I was going to ask a while back.
Not wanting to take this off topic (slap me if it does) but: where *can* one obtain a bare Powermac case? I want to do a PC-mobo-into-G4-case mod. Yes, I know it's been done before. I'm not claiming to be original here, just desperate.
I'm in Europe, and well aware that Apple don't supply them; the "approved Apple service centres" that I contacted were unable to help, no matter how creatively I phrased my request.
Anyone got any pointers? Better yet, anyone out there got a Powermac G4 case (maybe you've decanted one into a rack, and no longer need the case..) you'd be willing to part with? Please?
Special Sauce is a proprietary trade secret, dude! There's no way you'll be able to recreate it!
Drop one transistor on carpet and it is lost. But drop a million and you say "look at all those damn transistors."
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
you could be arrested for building something!
It doesn't take a fucking genius to make a goddamn burger.
Thats stupid, why would anyone waste their time building a mac. Everyone knows it's cheep and easy to build a PC, a far supperior computer. Why a PC running windows XP is just about the best computer money can buy these days. Linux, Unix, Mac OS... it's all jsut a poor immitation of the world's best operating system: Windows XP. Theres a reason Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. He programs some of the world's best software. Don't waste yoru time with immitations, get the best! A PC (preferably DELL) running Microsoft WIndows XP.
there is a weird thing with PPC processors these days. it has something to do with the IMB/Moto design and manufacturing thing. also the "processor" is not just a bare chip like a PC user may think. it's a whole processor card, including the backside cache bla bla bla. not that it really narrows the gap, but there is a lot more than a bare chip.
Moto makes the chips that Apple currently uses in machines, IBM makes a lot of the ones that are used for upgrades. there is some agreement over pricing and speed. the rumors have long said IBM can outclock Moto's chips, but are not allowed to sell them because they are held back because of contractual agreements. rumors, but interesting because it seems IBM will be making the new Apple super-chip in mid/late 2003 when the 970s roll out.
also of note, a $399 PC is a piece of junk compared to any Mac. i am talking about the physical components. everything from power supply to ram, it will not have gigabit ethernet, it will not have firewire with individual busses for each port. things like that where the prices of Macs add up.
DupeChute.
Now if someone can just tell me how to build my own open-sourced, fault resistant, no-tangle Xmas tree lights, *that* would be news!
The parent is clearly offtopic, or flamebait.
Just use two parts of mayonnaise to one partketchup!!!
He was at the wedding at the beginning, wasn't he?
You get SHOT for building your own mac!
Logic board: $200 Sonnet CPU: $700 Video card : $220 Memory: $200 hard drive: $150 pro keyboard/optical mouse: 99 Operating system: 129 ___________ Not including any shipping thats' 1730 $ for a SINGLE PROCESSOR MACHINE already without a case, power supply, cd/dvd drive, or even any cables or power cords. Or you can get a DUAL CPU system assembled with an air port card, extra memory, and operaing system from mac mall for $1690
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Is anyone surprised you can pick up a refurbished mainboard, and a processor upgrade on the internet? Whoopee.
Sure, you CAN build a Mac. But why? By the time you get done paying shipping from 10 different online merchants, you may as well have bought the real thing.
I understand building PC's, but I do that because the hardware is plentiful, I can get everything at one place usually, and end up saving quite a bit of money in the long run.
If you want to build a Mac, order yourself a Dual 866 G4, have someone tear it apart and put it in boxes, and put it back together...
I made one last week. I just had to follow a few simple instructions.
You will be watched building your own mac!
the rumors have long said IBM can outclock Moto's chips, but are not allowed to sell them because they are held back because of contractual agreements.
It really is just a rumor. Not only can IBM make chips that clock faster than motorola's chips, they do make them and they do sell them, so whatever contract you may have heard of wasn't or is no longer true.
Also, I believe that the current iBooks use IBM G3s. The 750CXe I think.
Obviously
Somebody on Slashdot modding down Wil Wheaton, yeah right! :)
:)
Heh. I think it's a hobby for some people to take their mod points and burn them hitting me -1 five times in a row.
Hey, at least this time it's for a good reason.
No, that's just Russian dressing. You need to add pickle relish to make it Thousand Island. Or is it the other way around? Mmm Mmm Good - white trash food!
What if life is just a side effect of some other process and God has no idea we exist?
Build your own Mac out of snow and Bjork CD's!
Yellow Dog Linux (Terrasoft) are selling PowerPC based computers using the ATX form factor.
r /
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/boxe
I want to make one into an ATX case (I know that some of the important parts are on the wrong side, I'll get it worked out, don't worry) and slap my athlon into it. I don't even mind the big apple on the side. It's really a shame that no one makes a copy of it that is anywhere near the same quality.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
also of note, a $399 PC is a piece of junk compared to any Mac
Your price reference is for the processor alone (my original intention). For that money one can purchase a high quality AMD processor and motherboard of your choice. When looking at total cost of the PC vs homemade Mac, you can get far nicer, all brand new, components for the PC. And it will be the latest generation.
Note that the motherboard referred to in the article was $199 and it was a refurbished unit. High quality or not, for that much scratch, I want new stuff.
Gigabit ethernet is useless for 99% of Mac users, other than for bragging rights. A Gigabit solution is just now getting to the point of being affordable. It is still useless if you are mainly concerned with internet usage.
The 970's, if they do come down the pipeline, sound really cool.
In reality, the Macintosh market is not one of customization, it is one of reliability and ease of use. Something the PC still can't do.
you = trolled by moderator
give up teh fight now
YHL HTH
And I need gigabit ethernet and firewire with individual busses WHY? I thought Mac was all about the user, and I can't think of any user outside of really specialized industries that might possibly need those features.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
I dropped $2200 on my refurbished TiBook, though, and never looked back. If this can get someone to try out the OS, it's worth it. Anyone languishing in Windows really needs to investigate OS X as an alternative--especially if they think Linux is daunting.
Hint of the post: The TiBook lid can be closed and the computer swung to-and-fro to fend off the chicks that will surround your sexy computer.
blarg.
But what I wonder is where you can get NEW Mac motherboards? This "build a Mac" thing has been on /. so many times, and ISTR that you could buy new mobos somewhere - not used/refurbished.
So, where do I find new Mac mobos outside of a new Mac?
Fucking shitface dumbass, so you just thought it's better to mod the parent down? You fucking dickcheese if I would meet you in person, I would kill you. You fucking idiot don't seem to know how to priorize?? This harmless message got modded down yet there are a lot of Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany messages that are not modded down. This explains the current lousy state of Slashdot. Dumbass moderators!!
Apple could really carve themselves a bigger market if they'd carve more off prices. The UNIXy goodness in Mac OS X actually makes me wish that I had a new Mac to play with, and that is saying something. I was an Apple user back before the Mac launched, but deviated slightly before and saw no compelling reason to take the platform seriously until Mac OS X.
It will take lower costs of pre-built systems, or greater availability of DIY hardware to get me to re-expand my horizons beyond Intel/AMD based workstations and Intel/AMD/Sparc based servers. Otherwise, Apple simply offers no wins to lure my money or my recommendation for budget in the corporate world.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
Well, like they said above, who cares if you can build your own. Mac needs to focus on something that is equaly important as their hardware. Its called Software. Mac lacks the support, in which, i would never own a mac. Its because i like being able to run more programs.
i'd take a 399 pc over a processor, though. I've found lone processors to be kinda useless except as combs.
You said older parts are more likely to fail. I have to disagree. After a part has been in use for 6 months, the rate of failure drops signifigantly. This is due to all the parts being put under load for the first time as a unit. A transistor may pass it's own QoS test, but it may fail when it is combined with the heat produced by other components.
After having worked in the telecom industry for about 10 years, I am more wary of a router fresh off the boat from Cisco than an old Cabletron Switch that has been in place longer than I have. I have DSFUs (telephone signalling equipment) that have been processing calls longer than I have been alive. But the new (still just as old, but never been out of the box) DSFUs that fail tend to do so within the first month.
I'll trust the old video card I pull out of the bottom of my parts bin (which is currently stacked higher than most men stand) over a brand new GeForceFX any day. As long as the part wasn't crap to begin with, after 6 months of use, it'll last forever.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
I am not impressed
I find it ironic that as much as folks complain about MS' monopolistic practices, look at how much more difficult it is to piece together your own Mac. Even those who have purchased a factory-built Mac are faced with a narrower selection of hardware choices.
Apple wouldn't have had to create a "switch" campaign if they hadn't reversed their decision to license out their OS. (As I recall, Power Computing at one point sold more Mac-OS running computers than Apple did!).
Their market share keeps declining, even as the quality and innovation of their products is on the upswing. How strange.
It's eerily similar to watching socialist command economies flounder and fall, while free-market ones thrive and give consumers more choices at better prices.
I'll leave it up to those reading this to map the metaphor.
I dont know, I just built a Linux machine WITH Gigabit ehternet (yeah I have a gigabit connection too), firewire and a DVD+RW burner for under 900 bucks. Oh and I equipped it with good RAM and a high end power supply. Pricing the Apple hardware, it was double that, the you gotta deal with Aqua, hahah yeah I know, its sooo nice and sooo ahead of everyone else and well I would say soo much just eye candy.
I know though, the Power Mac is a supercomputer right, or ummm, isnt that what their marketing claims....yeah right, supercomputer.
IN SOVIET RUSSIA...
Your own Mac builds YOU!
Yeah well here you get -1 Offtopic for even mentioning SOVIET RUSSIA!!
"Transire suum pectus mundoque potiri"
Anyway, when the computer you're building requires a 'refurbished' motherboard made by Apple, it's not quite the same thing, is it? It's interesting, but wake me up when someone gets Auqa running on a generic G4 reference board.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
Motherboard? I think that would be much more interesting, and open up new choices for us. Several companies have released PPC based motherboards for Linux and Amiga, so is there any reason that one of these boards couldn't be running OS X with appropriate drivers and Darwin modifications? PPC bins should run and with more recent computers a ROM isn't needed.
i'd take a 399 pc over a processor, though. I've found lone processors to be kinda useless except as combs.
Glue the CPU to a piece of wood. It makes a great backscratcher.
I'm the urban spaceman babe, but here comes the twist... I don't exist
Well, as somebody who has done long pro-mac parts posts of every one of these threds, I've got to say, yeah, I've wondered about that myself. I've been looking for a good place online to buy empty Mac cases since 1996 and I have yet to find *one*. Very odd. And I do, by now suspect that this is yet another case [sic] of the Rabid Lawyers Of The Mighty Steve (RLOTMS, coming soon on videocassette and DVD) going after folks doing perfectly innocent stuff.
I do know that the techs as a major New York Mac place used to have *piles* of bevels sitting around and weren't allowed to sell them. A friend of mine got enough to build a computer case covered in pretty blue tiles but his supply had to, shall we say, exit through the back door.
Sometimes being a serious Mac person is like being in love with an amazing woman who alternates periods of entrancing brilliance, weeks of beautiful lucidity, and occasional psychotic fits during which she is convinced that the space aliens are about to get her and can only be calmed down by being allowed to throw things at occasional passers by. You live for the good days, and make your peace with occasional afternoons spent running after complete strangers and explaining that you're very sorry and yes, you will pay for the cost of their new lambswool coat and no, she's not always like this.
*sigh*
Bleeding six colors since 1984 (first mac bought August '84 model 0001),
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
Word to the wise (from the foolish): don't build your own Mac. Just don't. If you're going to build a computer, build a PC or some other machine you can build out of parts that are all under warranty.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
You brothuh, I be makin' a Big Mic insprired from Mc'Doulds of yo- Queens-NY. I got all you got without the seeds on my buns. And I don' hafta needa buss' any caps in yo' ass.
2 all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun! (optional) it's a good time, for a great taste, at McDonald's!
the really specialized industries that use those features are Mac strongholds, homeslice.
Just like a good education, some people don't get it. Who needs to spend time learning? Why put money into tools? I'm happier ignorant and helpless, thanks AC for the words of wizzdom.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
When you buy a Mac, you have exactly one option: buy a full machine, hardware and software from Apple. At least with W2K I can put it on any Intel-based platform. Apple products are the most closed, inflexible PC's out there. There's no way I'd get a PC where virtually every part and every piece of software was tied to *one* company. MS's stuff is *VERY* open by comparison, and considering how well W2K works with countless hardware configurations, is pretty fucking impressive. Apple only guarantees that their software will work on the hardware that they make and sell. That's it. Talk about not having any choice!
Gigabit ethernet is useless for 99% of Mac users
Huh? Say that next time we use a $12 cable to copy gigs of stuff from my Power Mac to my friend's PowerBook G4 at over 30 MB/s.
I write in my journal
Real men need two layers or less. The techinques are simple and need no further explaination than double sided pc board. Now you know.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Be honest here folks.
We're talking about homebrew PC's. There are very few businesses that want homebrew x86 boxes, made with new parts. So if you try and sell them on homebrew mac's made with grey market second hand parts, etc, you can bet the CFO won't let that fly.
So we're bsically talking about homebrew machines for the home.
Who in gods name, needs gigabit at home? You can basically take it to the bank, that the bottleneck any home user will have, will be their pipe to the net. Arcnet will be faster than 99% of the home net connections out there. And if you do have the $$ to get a T3+ at home, you probably won't bother building a Mac from scratch.
Gigabit's only really a selling point, if you've got something to connect to it, that will actually USE the bandwidth. Otherwise it's just a spoiler or a Civic.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
MSNBC has even been known to bash The Mothership on occasion.
TechTV knows what side its bread is buttered on...most people run Windows (sad but true) and it follows that TSS and other TechTV shows are very Windows-centric as a result.
However, Chris DiBona is a TSS regular, and Leo Laporte is very loud in his support of MacOS X. I don't think the rest of them are too fond of Windows but give out Windows tips because that's what the viewers use. Yoshi seems to like Windows the most because that's what's got the most games.
Now, don't get me started on Chris Pirillo...he genuinely seems to be Borged by MS.
"But you've already got a DVD. It lasts forever....In the digital world, we don't need back-ups..."
-- Jack Valenti
Yeah.. sure moderator.. this is flamebait. Hopefully i'll get you in meta-mod.
pretending to be cool. I'd like to see some regular joes who don't do this just while their agent finalizes their MTV real world appearence (TM)
And those really specialized industries that are strongholds for the like, would *never* touch a homebrew mac, for any price, homey.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
I am left wondering if there was enough demand to put Mac parts in a standard PC case; would it be possible to convince a case manufacturer like Antec to make a case that all the standoffs, and the USB/FiWi/Ethernet holes in the right places to match a typical G4 layout.
Also what is needed is a ATX power supply adapter and a case LED/button button converter
It's possible, but would a case manufacturer go for it?
Too many zeros, not enough ones
...is develop a standard set of boards and enclosures that are interchangeable. Take the IBM PS2 case design concept to it's natural conclusion: a motherboard swap should be a 10-minute job requiring the release of 7 plastic snap connectors.
Apple should then sell these individual parts together with complete systems. The products should be of utmost quality. The parts should be simple enough that anybody could modify and maintain them (I don't think that current SIMM designs, for example, are simple and fool-proof enough).
When Apple has done this, and converted entirely to a component model, the introduction of x86 Macs with native OSX will not be so profound (actually, I would like to see a Transmeta Mac without all that code-morphing - the performance of a "native" Crusoe would be interesting).
In short, Apple needs to become the Ikea of computers. There are lots of places that sell furniture that is cheaper than Ikea, but Ikea remains a very big player in its market. Apple's market share is restrained for a simple reason: at Ikea, there is something for everybody. Apple should adopt this as a corporate mantra.
I looked into doing this, and frankly, it's still not a very good deal - because the best logicboard that's readily available is the Gigabit Ethernet board. That's about two years old compared to the latest power mac systems. And one of the main logic board and grey market parts suppliers just went out of business (Shreve systems - but Mac ResQ is still around).
If I could get a more up to date logic board, or even a cube motherboard, I'd feel more compelled to pursue this. Until then, I'm still squeezing every last cycle I can out of my trusty old upgraded Beige G3. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
you have a lot of choices.... you can run Windows on build your own hardware, run windows on a pre-built system, run Linux on either of those choices, or you can run OS X on a pre built Apple made machine.
I for one do all of the above... I don't know why some folks don't *get* that Apple controlling the OS and hardware make for a GREAT user experience. I use Win for some testing stuff, Linux for servering and some development, and a Mac for 90% of my daily activities..... why? It WORKS.
Obviously, for you it may not be the best choice, but you DO have a choice... don't buy a Mac. Don't bitch about it.
I'm so fucking sick of people who haven't even USED a Mac bitching about them... "Macs suck, blah blah blah, I can't build my own, blah blah blah..."
NOBODY CARES. Build your own Win2k machine, have fun putting it together, and if it is cheap and it all works, GOOD FOR YOU!! YOU GET A GOLD STAR!!!!
As far as being tied to ONE company... that is absolutely the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard. Do you know what "tied" to one company in my Mac? The motherboard. That's it. And guess what... if you have a PeeCee, YOUR motherboard is tied to one company to, either Intel or AMD. I have a pinoneer CD-RW/DVD-R you can swap it in/ out of a PC. My RAM cam be put in a PC, my videocard is a GeForce, I use a MICROSOFT keyboard and mouse... my monitor is a SONY. yup, it's so tied to Apple.
Guess what, I can run Linux on my Apple hardware!! OMFG! I have a choice!! No way!!
If you like Winblows better, fine. But why does ever PC zelot have to talk shit our thier ass about Macs?? RUN WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND STFU.
Department of Homeland Security: Removing the rights real patriots fought and died for since 2001
I'm pretty sure the Apple motherboards still use Open Firmware. You'll run into problems. Some of Apple's own computers won't even load the OS without the right firmware.
how fast is firewire again???
As a comb, I'll take the heat sink over the actual processor any day.
Dude, I think I can see my house from here.
the mac builds you
Jon Bardin
A crossover cable works fine if you have only two machines. The second you add a third machine to the mix, Gigabit Ethernet gets much more expensive. (BTW, $12 for a crossover cable? You could've made one for much less.)
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
That's why you don't buy Macs, and that's why 90% of Mac owners do buy them.
It's as slow and useless as a Mac, and as ugly as a PC! Where do I sign up?
Well, it's not like you can't have that too. Over at newegg, you can pick up a ASUS A7V8X for $144.00. Gigabit networking onboard, USB 2.0, IEEE1394, supports up to DDR400.
Then click back to the home page and note that you can pick up a boxed AMD 2000XP for $91. Just add need memory, video card, a case, and drives.
Memory: $137.00 for Samsung 512MB CAS 2.5. You can certainly get faster, but that's about where the price break is, and it kicks the pc133's butt. Video card $219 for the same one as in the ad (I mean article). The case is around $50 for a good screwless model, CD-RW less than $50 (I just picked on up for $20 after rebates- you might notice they didn't include a CD-RW in the article), and for a hard drive, grab the same one in the article for $100. Maybe grab some extra case fans for $4-6 each?
So that's a *good* machine, brand new, for about $795 +shipping (which isn't going to be much) with all the extras. Gigabit networking, USB 2.0, Firewire, pretty much everything.
But you can build the used g4 for $1730 if you prefer.
I'd love to get a mac, but whenever I compare where I can get the most flexibility and bang for the buck, I end up with another PC. My next laptop, however, will be a powerbook.
Never trust an atom. They make up everything.
I forgot to mention something...
What people really need to consider, when they are soo excited about gigabit etherenet, is how much of your CPU is going to be taken up to process all those packets, if by some strange chance you have a gigabit connection....
TCP packets, they use more CPU than you may think.
lol, telling someone to use what works for them and not bash other platforms is flamebait?
/. readers use Windows =)
OK. I forgot, most
Department of Homeland Security: Removing the rights real patriots fought and died for since 2001
"if you have a PeeCee, YOUR motherboard is tied to one company to, either Intel or AMD"
Dude, that's TWO companies!
Idiot....
You wouldn't be able to get much decent software, or the really good games. And all for the price of a couple of decent quality PC's.
That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere
Reliability?
My main system is a P3 550 (was a 450 until a buddy just up and consigned a faster proc over to me). I've owned/used the system for approximately 4 years now.
Outside of rebooting for system software upgrades, hardware upgrades, and physically moving the system between the three places I've lived in that time frame (as well as to LAN parties), my system has had approximately 1 DAY.
Including the above, I've had approximately 5 days worth of downtime in 4 years.
That may not be 5 9's, but it's pretty damn respectable for a Windows box. 0.3% downtime.
Do you have any Macs with that kind of uptime?
And don't even get me started on my Linux server.
Ease of use? Face it. Ease of use became a moot point with the introduction of Windows95.
Plus, the fact that when most Mac-heads talk about ease of use nowadays, what they're really talking about is familiarity. If you're more familiar with the Mac interface, it's easier for you to use than the Windows UI. And vice-versa.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Crossover cables are obsolete. At least, they should be. Doesn't everybody do autosense MDI-X by now?
I write in my journal
I am a believer of momentum and curves.
So, you think the machines Apple makes are better than PC's but you don't think that justifies their costing more eh? Sounds like you're on a river in Egypt.
De Nile
IBM will be making the new Apple super-chip in mid/late 2003 when the 970s roll out
Didn't Apple learn their lesson the first time when they decided to use only one dedicated chip vendor? Apple should just re-compile OS X for x86...then they can choose from a number of chip vendors....VIA, Transmeta, Intel, AMD....etc.
Speed freaks don't buy Macs for one reason right now...the CPU.
The G4 gets pooped on in most benchmarks when compared to mid-line Athlons and P4s. The only reason to buy a Mac right now is for a nice looking case and for OS X....that's it.
The x86 platform will open up avenues for many other types of products....how about a transmeta powered sub-notebook running OS X; or a light, portable, Transmeta powered tablet? Image conscious Mac consumers would flock to a product like that! This would also put a sock into the mouths of all the PC guys who constantly brag about their superior CPUs, memory, and bus technologies.
By switching to the x86 platform, Apple could open it's market to vast numbers of new customers. If Apple decides to go back to one CPU vendor in the next line of products, i'm selling the stock. It's a stupid business move.
-ted
I'm typing this on a Mac, but with a bunch of other kit on this desk - a Microsoft mouse, an ADSL router, a TV and a video recorder. And compared to that lot, the Apple keyboard, monitor and G4 tower look resplendent - they're just better designed, they look nicer, they have nice touches like the fact that the iBook, when put to sleep, has a power light that pulses. (Freaked me out at first, when I was trying to get to sleep and wondered where that glowing pulsating light was coming from...)
I think people who talk about building their own Mac should remember one of the most interesting things about owning a Mac - i.e., the case. And the design that comes with it.
let's see, does your motherboard support BOTH AMD *and* Intel?
I didn't think so.
Idiot
Department of Homeland Security: Removing the rights real patriots fought and died for since 2001
It appears you're playing fast and lose with your spelling.
I don't like to pay for software (hardware costs enough, thank you), so I'm not going to fork out the bucks for Mac OS X. And no, I'm not willing to Warez it (besides being on dialup... ya'll should know Warez are bad). As for running Linux on it, why the heck spend the bucks on on Apple hardware just to run Linux. I'n happy enough with running Linux on cheap PC hardware.
someone giving away trade secrets of McDonald's.
Actually, the fact that McDonald's Big Mac sauce is Kraft brand thousand island dressing has been known since 1982, when Big Secrets by William Poundstone was published. Once a recipe has been published, it's "generally known to the public" and no longer a trade secret.
Will I retire or break 10K?
We get to choose between five fruity colors!
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
Do you have any Macs with that kind of uptime?
My main machine Powermac G4 400 uptime with OSX is 4 months. I have had about 6 hours of downtime this year mainly due to adding another harddrive. I have never had OSX crash since verion 10.0 so I am pretty happy
NICs don't (whether you're dealing with cheapie Realteks or something a little more expensive, like 3Com or Intel). I have a bunch of Fast Ethernet switches that do...but while my 5-port switches cost me only $25 each, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Gigabit Ethernet switch of any kind for less than $300 (except for the $100 units that have a bunch of Fast Ethernet ports and one Gigabit Ethernet uplink port).
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
No, it doesn't. But I can also go down to my local corner computer store and buy a new motherboard or a new chip and slap it in. Last I checked, this is impossible with Apple products.
Cocksucker.
A Linux user complaining about a lack of software on the Macintosh?
How quaint. Poor little guy has no idea...
There was this old saying... "Mac owners have more money then brains."
Umm... Don't mod me down if your offended, it's not MY old saying. Besides I use OSX all the time and i love it (over os 9 and windows... 98).
Hmmm... Pie...
Dragging this thread kicking and screaming back towards the topic, Apple NICs do. There's no need to use a crossover cable with a recent-generation Mac box or laptop.
You can get an a7n8x deluxe in that price range. I mean it comes with dual macs (media access control not macintoshes), dolby digital, usb 2.0, dual channel ddr :), and much more i'm not sure if they're giga though but they should be 100 megs at least.
Plus the nforce2 just kicks ass in every way...
Hmmm... Pie...
at least I have the balls to post replies in my own name, dildo.
So buying a new Mobo, new processor, and then by some magic my system doesn't need a reformat, reinstall of the OS, re-drivering, etc. Yup, that's so great!!
"I have a small penis, I bash platforms, then I make homophobic comments, because sucking cock is BAD!! Even if you are a woman or gay!!!!" I take it you, as a 12 year old, haven't had a blowjob yet. Make sure you make fun of the girl/woman/male prostitute/small animal you get it from. That will help you out a lot in life.
Department of Homeland Security: Removing the rights real patriots fought and died for since 2001
Ok here it goes for all u flamers out there. First off, I have used a mac constantly over the past 3 years and my reliable G4 never had the crashability of a PC. For all the Guru's who say u can stick linux on a mac box (which u can obviously) the question is why waste a $2000+ PC that doesn't even have the speed and extras (decent DVDwriters, etc...) when u can get an AMD XP chip + mobo + ati 9000 for less than $600. My debian running PC i built for less than $800 and easily outperforms my mac. Hell when I ran win2k on it it was faster than my mac (btw i bought both comps in the summer of 2002 so any BS bout the age difference is not important). The fact is that though there are many that swear by apple, it is dieing ever so slowly (yes i said slowly so don't flame). Check out recent apple sales while ur at it. Though i admit there new laptops are amazing to look at, they are the really only hot thing mac has going for them. Since the bigone iMac days have passed, I fear that Mac will eventually die out. No offense meant, but the truth is that mac doesn't have 2 things, the appeal to the younger generation (geeks included), nor the offering of all the software which M$ and or linux can give you.
Just my 2 cents...
The G4 case is hands down superior to any standard PC case you can get from a case builder. Go to work build a custom Mac in a sub standard case. Doesn't make any sence. If yiu had the need for something special like a rack mount or hazardous usesae then maybe I could understand. building your own custom Mac and putting it in a ugly, harder to work on case -- well it doesn't make sense.
Just another one of those countless things that makes me happier and more productive using a Mac.
All current Mac's do this, I've not seen any consumer NIC's that do this for PC land. Macs are consntly like this, not shockingly better, but just a little more convenience with every part adds up quickly.
I live in a giant bucket.
[/smartass]
Sorry, referring to a Macintosh as a 'MAC' is one of my pet peeves.
keep in mind that the G4 case only offers two 5 1/2 bays one of which is used by the CD-ROM. Some people actually want to put in a more than two devices like a zip drive, a burner, removable hard drive rails, etc.
Too many zeros, not enough ones
Check the forums here, you can get AWESOME deals there. Enjoy!
www.fatwallet.com
Many of them still use Mac OS from time to time in dual boot or in MOL (Mac-On-Linux aka vmware) - there are still situations when we need some unported program or driver. Day to day less and less often.
Got a point? People choose Linux after realizing that they threw a big chunk of many to the window of proprietary hardware.
Well, after all it's not that bad. Especially when it runs Linux :)
Less is more !
"who will ever need..."
But based on current usage, what home user can justify gigabit ether, and not justify the price of a "new" Mac?
I'm thinking a gigabit switch will cost damn near as much as a new Mac. And you ain't building that from spare parts, for sure.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
I hate Grammar Nazi's
... but you do write UNIX.
2 1337 4 u!
While their primary product may be software, microsoft sells lots of hardware... I'd bet quite a few slashdotters have MS mice, joysticks, or even keyboards. I even saw a wireless router by MS during my last trip to best buy. And that's just their pc products... they also have this thing called Xbox that seems way too heavy to be software.
Mai Logic makes a couple of decent G4 boards. Why can't you use one of them for the mainboard? IBM and Moto also make mainboards. Does apple do something proprietary that can't be reverse engineered?
I say cut the out of the loop if they won't play ball.
Evil Man
The real issue is Altivec. Motorola's got it, IBM wasn't interested in it.
Even now that IBM *is* implementing the instruction set, they're not able to use the name because Motorola's trademarked it.
I don't mean to insult you in anyway. But like you said - if it works for you - then it works for you. End of story, and be happy with it.
There is just one thing that I might add. I saw it on a picture that I got from a site with a not-so-positive-about-apple.url - I quote : "If you build a computer that idiots can use - only idiots will want to use it".
but... I thought that Apple had made an arrangement to allow other companies to sell Macintosh clones? I have some magazines from '97 or so that covered that, and had some ads from companies doing such.
What ever happened to that?
No, Beowulf clusters can't imagine in Soviet Russia.
Yikes, that's a lot of money for that puppy! Guess they're gonna have to run YellowDog or it's ilk on that box... after laying down all the extra green.
But, seriously, I look forward to the day when I can run OSXX (not a typo) on my P4-7Ghz. Ah, the longing for the 'nix platform with a stable, polished (snappy) GUI (that doesn't leave you all M$ gooey)... some day. : )
Keep up the fight!
No, sorry. In Nazi Germany you got shot for being a Jew.
While it is true that you can get a (rather low-end) PC for that price, you also get a (nearly) new Mac out of this.
Let's take my machine as an example:
For the last 3 years I was quite happy with my G4 sawtooth, running @400 MHz.
I've got > 1 GB of RAM (which I could not transfer to one of the new macs 'cause it's pc-100 RAM) and a Radeon 8500 AGP card.
But with the advent of Mac OS X (and WarcraftIII, hehe) it beacme pretty obvious that I was lacking some serious processing power.
So I bought the 1 GHz (single processor) G4 Upgrade-Card, and put it in in exchange for the old processor (which I could sell on ebay if I wanted to) - a 5 Minute Job.
Now I am really happy with my Mac again - OS X is super-snappy, and WarcraftIII runs just great in 1280x1024, all bells and whistles on.
Before it was choppy even at 640x480 and all options turned down.
So this upgrade really extended the life of my machine for roughly 1-2 years - at least until the new IBM processors are available =)
Special Sauce is a proprietary trade secret, dude! There's no way you'll be able to recreate it!
The idea is that you have an old Mac you no longer want, and you retrieve the "special sauce" off it. Didn't you read the article?
Mmmmm.... 5-year old special sauce.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
My Mac is choc full of non-apple parts, 2 x HD, PC133 RAM, SCSI, Radeon Graphics card, and I've used PC Hard Drives and CD-ROMs in many Macs before, is this article supposed to be ground breaking news?? I don't think so....
America is a sideshow.
You'll be lucky to get a G4 Mac under $3000
Whoa, I read flavors for a second there.
And I was thinking, wow Apple has a new interface.
I assume you're looking at doing this, primarily "just because"? You don't have an actual valid purpose for all that bandwidth, do you?
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
Have you EVER used a Mac, man? I used PCs from 1987 to 2001. That's 14 years. I've used Mac for 1 1/2 years. (Though in both cases I've used the other one, and UNIX, a fraction of the time. Before the PCs and UNIX, it was VMS and a VT100 terminal.) The Mac is easier to use, hands down. That's not familiarity, that's design.
Stability? I keep my iBook on almost all the time; I sleep it closed when I'm not using it, charge it at home at night. Doesn't crash. Even though I switch back and forth between 802.11b and Ethernet.
I think you're still thinking of System 7, which crashed every time you looked at it crosseyed. OS X is spectacular. When it comes to quality, XP:98::OSX:2(OS9) (and XP=1/2(OS X)).
Yes. I have two. Next question.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Free software is only free if your time is worth nothing.
That goes for building your own box, too.
Got a point? People choose Linux after realizing that they threw a big chunk of many to the window of proprietary hardware.
Yeah, and I'm sure all three of them feel quite elite, too.
... Wouldn't you rather a nice, cold shower?
Ahh, fun with Ask Jeeves.
-Peter
. Penguins Surely Ca
here's the lowdown (as if anyone cares) of the Mac I've been piecing together for a few months now:
Its a 7600 case painted gloss black w/ silver highlights on the power button, the cd eject button, and, of course, the apple logo.
inside you'll find a beige g3 rev 3 mobo. a 350 MHz G3 clocked up to 433 w/ 1MB cache, 6MB internal Rage Pro graphics. Beefed up to 768 MB RAM. Added the A/V card that was optional on these models. Added a USB/FW combo card, a fast ethernet card, a Radeon 7000 PCI graphics card, 2 HDs(12 and 20, soon to be 12 and 80), a and a DVD-ROM for movies. This baby kills. Check out the list of ports:
1/8" stereo audio in
1/8" stereo audio out
RCA stereo audio in
RCA stereo audio out
RCA video in
RCA video out
S-video in
2x S-video out (one onboard, one on Radeon card)
Original Apple Monitor Connector
VGA
DVI
2 USB
2 FW
10/100 Enet
10 Enet
SCSI
2x serial
ADB
3x Monitor support (2 off the Radeon, one off internal video - the internal video can be a monitor or television, Radeon can be any 2 of either DVI, VGA, or S-video or composite video.).
Its not a gaming station as I'm stuck w/ PCI graphics and a 66MHz bus on this (Tomb Raider runs great but forget about Jedi Knight II), but I'm not done w/ it yet. Next up are the final 2 additions:
-SuperDrive (found a vendor that sells a black model CHEAP, so it'll match - just bought one for my B&W G3 and it rules.)
- Single or Dual G4. XLR8 made a dual g4 upgrade, but they're out of business. So I'm trying to find a dual 450 or 500 upgrade for this baby, and if I can't find one I'll swap in a 450 from a B&W I'm upgrading, clock it up a tad, and be done with it.
OK, so there's the setup, now here's the use:
computer sits by the couch/loveseat/lazyboy w/ a flat panel monitor, wireless mouse and keyboard. the computer's display is mirrored on the tv set via the Radeon. Cable TV runs directly into the TV. Cable TV also runs into a VCR, which is plugged into the Computer via S or Composite Video. Audio out from Computer (which also serves as a CD player, DVD player, networked MP3 player, CD burner, DVD burner, and PVR) goes into a reciever to speakers. Everything else is also hooked into the reciever. Reciever audio out is looped back into the Computer through 1/8" input on Computer while the VCR uses RCA audio in.
The Computer's video is hooked into the Receiver as well, with the output going into the TV, and an auxilliary video and audio output going back into the VCR.
This way, ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING can be recorded both digitally and analog with live monitoring and multiple recording points. Please keep in mind that a CD-changer, record player, and tape deck are all plugged into the receiver as well. Because of the way its set up, the TV can be just a TV or have the full computer interface and due to the VCR hooked into the computer, can retain TV functionality in addition to all the other uses that a Mac has.
The computer is running on Mac OS X Jaguar, so its a cinch to set up an audio/video file server and a limited-use user account specifically for the functions of using it as a media center. Not to mention the use of a Wacom tablet for interaction, plus all the user apps that mac Mac OS X so great - iMovie, iPhoto, etc., all integrated into a total entertainment environment. Plus, using bluetooth, if I'm watching TV and my cell rings, I'll get a nice pop-up message on my TV of who's calling with their picture. I drool when I think about it. Much cooler and more expandable/useful than MS's media center, and the components were dirt cheap. most were scavenged off eBay or are hand-me-downs from a B&W G4 that I've been upgrading as well. Fun stuff!
Beyond that, add into the mix the Computer's ability to run things like Pro Tools or Deck. And iTunes will soon have Rendevous support, so as soon as my friends come over with their iBooks or PowerBooks, their music is available on my entertaiment system automatically. Or use a USB or FireWire TV tuner and run cable directly into the Computer as well. The sheer geekiness of it is astounding.
The possibilities are endless, and I'm like 85% there. I really should have been chronicling all this (especially all the clocking experiments) or something, but I usually only get to work on it in the wee hours when I'm all cracked out (not literally mind you).
Oh well, that's it. I think its cool, its been fun to build, and I hope nobody is mad cuz they read the whole damn post and feel ripped off.
You can get the case off your iBook with a standard set of Torx screwdrivers, avaialable from any hardware shop.
You'll need a T8 and a T6. The rest of the screws holding in drive bay, modem, shield plate etc are all philips/cross head.
So, err, why does it work when I bought a Mac and took a lot of the components out of my Athlon system (hard drive, ram, cd writer, monitor) and put them in the Mac and watched with joy as it started OSX and worked perfectly.
Macs have the same components as PCs in many respects - only the motherboard and processor are proprietry.
You can go to any PC store, buy a hard drive, ram etc and stick it in a Mac and it will work just fine.
"Closed system"? Hardly.
But wow!
How much do you want to sell it for?
Not where it counts.
Seen all those adverts for the new Pentium with HT tech saying "compose while you burn?" "you can with the new P4 with HT!"
Well, my 600Mhz G3 iBook burns just fine when I'm surfing the net, playing mp3s, accessing my HD.
I can also encode mpeg4 in real time.
If my humble G3 can do that, what the hell can a G4 do!
Oh, my G3 has no fan either, nor does the new G4. What? Need me to speak up? That huge fan on your red hot pentium cpu damaging your hearing?
It is listed as a:
PowerPC 750CXe v3.1 (tech 3)
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
I am in the process of building a portable network packed sniffer. I picked up two iMacs with dead analog boards for $20 each, ripped the guts out and am about to mount the logic board basket and power supply board in a backpack.
I'll run LinuxPPC and I'll be able to carry it into a library for hours of password snarfing.
In all honesty, I just want to see if I can do it, but I wouldn't mind a few porno passwords.
Hackito Ergo Sum
so, are you saying i can build my own opitcal intellimouse with off-the-shelf parts? or whip up an xbox in my garage?
2 1337 4 u!
Ever look inside a new powermac g4, and then turn around and look inside a *good* PC machine, the difference is staggering. The g4 has a nice clean look about it (maybe partly to the case, but it still looks great). But when looking inside a new windows PC, a cold feeling always follows...
RL