Slashdot Mirror
LCD Screens Double as Speakers
An anonymous reader writes "The BBC has a story about a company who has developed an LCD screen that can produce sound as well. They claim that the sound quality is quite good, and compare it to average multimedia computer speakers. Also NEC is making and selling computers that use this technology in Japan. Hardware integration like this should make for some interesting appliances in the next few decades."
It seems like an awesome idea, but how does it handle stereo? And I'd love to hear a wav file or something of how it sounds...
and what will it do to the lifespan of the LED?
I can see the music!
My patience is infinite, my time is not.
Yaarggh! First pirate post! Ahoy, here be landlubbers abound!
Whont having the screen vibrating cause eyestrain?
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I don't like LCDs to have _any_ form of integrated speakers.
I have my surround sound system and don't want to pay for stuff I'll never use.
Fleur de Sel
Oh boy, soon my microwave will be playing techno, and my keyboard will be outputting a crummy rendition of Tchaikovsky. I can't wait.
-Dae
"Alle reden vom wetter. Wir nicht." - SDS Sozialistischer Deutscher Studentenbund.
j00 4r3 3n73r1ng l337 w0r1d.
I'm no LCD scientist (though, I can tell you how they're made, thanks Apple Service Training for Losers with No Fscking Life), but it seems to me like heavy low-frequency sound coming /through/ the LCD would alter its color accuracy, at the least.
:-)
Granted, I have to put a good amount of pressure on my LCD to make it change color deeply, but don't you think if heavy low-frequency sound came out of it, something would happen, at least occasionally? What about the almost paper-thin glass sandwiched in the LCD layers?
I dunno. Seems to me like sound was made for speakers, not a display medium.
Does anyone out there have more info about the crap I just wrote?
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
"The sound quality is very good, probably better than with most multimedia speakers you would buy with a computer," he said. "It is a much better listening experience.
yeah mod that one up to +5 informative.
by the way, most el cheapor computer speakers have stereo sound and don't vibrate your monitor.
oh and to keep my post on topic, I don't think this speaker technology will do much but help office workers who "aren't allowed" to have speakers on their machine...can these be disabled if need be?? (Other than liberal use of a screwdriver:) If not they could piss off many a network admin
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
Average multimedia speakers vs. laptop speakers = laptop ones lose every time
Great news - because we all know how expensive speakers are and how cheap LCD screens are! Imagine the cost savings... Jolyon
Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
integrated cameras? It seems like an integrated camera would be much more useful for applications like video phones. The way these devices are set up now the angle is all wrong and it doesn't look like you are looking into the eyes of the person you are speaking with. If you put small cameras interspersed with the pixels you should be able to get the desired result.
Or maybe I'm just stupid.
This is the same tech, essentially, that drives those flat-panel computer speakers, and the Soundbug over at thinkgeek.
Damnit, you can't just casually mention quasi-invisibility cloaks without posting a link. Don't leave me hangin' here. Also, you will go to slashdot, it is completely crappy for anything other than a fun discussion area.
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
...two great tastes that go great together!
This could be great for the laptop market where "average" multimedia speakers would sound alot better than those tin cans.
--aiee
These screens get thinner, yet they pump up the volume
Reminds me of http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/5a15/ Attaches to any glossy surface, But with LCD, I'd imagine you might get those warpy colors. Like you see when you touch it.
..every time I crank up some Motorhead I'd be picking my display up from the floor.
Trolling is a art,
...the lcd's were touchscreen.
:-/
[john doe]: *touch touch touch*
[lcd screen]: dammit, stop touching me! you're smooshing my liquid crystals!
or... well.. need i mention the possibilites for multi-sensory interactivity the pr0n world....
granted, this could be possible now... i mean.. sound card and speakers do a fine job on their own.. but...
yeah.. i forgot where i was going with this.
damn. i need more coffee.
happy monday.
~ fuzz
http://www.digifuzz.net
...pixel response, these speakers will have a frequency range of 20-40Hz.
I hope this doesn't take of in a large way like sound on motherboard did.
Not all conservatives are stupid,
but it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
- Hume
Story here. Neat stuff. :)
http://www.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/ oc.html
"you can't just casually mention quasi-invisibility cloaks without posting a link"
He did post a link, but he used the <quasi-invisible> tag.
Sigs are bad for your health.
And when you put two monitors on in a dual head configuration, you get stereo sound! Wonder how many monitors it would take to get a completely immersive 360 degree experience with video and sound!
Or not...
I can see the screen flickering now and then on older (or especially low refresh rate) setups, but wouldn't the screen vibrating to sound really mess with the picture? Still, it sounds like a good idea in that it would save more desk space, especially if you had a really BIG LCD on the wall that did away with really big desktop speakers.
stuff |
So, will the vibrations do pretty much the same thing as anti-aliasing and make all of your fonts look smooth around the edges? ;)
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
i could see this really taking off in the hand-held market, where the machines are really small and would benefit from having less components to have to cram into their small encasing..
~ fuzz
http://www.digifuzz.net
OK, I admit I'm kind of an audio snob. I have full size, full range speakers at my desk, because I like to really listen to music while I work / play / whatever.
But I don't think that *anyone* thinks that "the sound quality is quite good" coming from "average multimedia computer speakers".
I don't mean to knock this technology - if it's like multimedia speakers, it's probably great for people who just want to hear the Happy Sound when their computer boots up, and to watch some video clips from the news online. But, c'mon, Slash, you guys are supposed to be smart enough to filter this BS, and just tell us that it lets people hear their login "zing" without having extra speakers on their desk.
The coolest thing I anticipate from this technology is really cool crack patterns in LCDs from people trying to crank the bass way up (since most compact flat panel speakers have trouble with deep bass).
--Keepiru
--slashsuckATvegaDOTfurDOTcom
NXT argues its technology has major advantages over conventional speakers. It says its SoundVU technology distributes frequencies evenly across a room, producing what audio buffs call a universal "sweet spot".
I read that as it's a speaker that fills the room with a single channel of sound. If it was in stereo, then it wouldn't be room filling if you could discern the channels. You could probably deal with it if the screen created two virtual speakers by superposition using exciters on opposite sides of the monitor. But then the sweet spot would be very small, aimed at the person sitting a few feet away. Definitely not room filling.
Plus, they go on to say how they intend to use it in mobile phones and PDAs. All single channel devices when used without headphones.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Scientist #2: "Well, you got your electromagnets all over my active matrix organic composite screen prototype!"
*blink blink*
In unison, reeling with implication: "Whooooooooaaa...."
Sure, it's interesting, but it seems like another inappropriate use of technology. Just because something is possible to do, doesn't mean it's worth doing.
Just like the combined TV/VCR units, sure, it's nice when both functions work well, but if either function takes a dive, you're left with something that's less useful than either would have been if bought separately.
Maybe it'll be fine for people who don't particularly care about sound (and/or visual) quality, but I think this is another time when discrete components are the appropriate way to do it. It's not like the world has been sadly lacking for want of a speaker-monitor.
One question: what happens when you turn it up to 11?
For those of you too lazy to search Google for "Japanese invisibility cloak", here is the link that started it and the project home page (with movies).
The objects are NOT truly transparent. They just appear that way due to optical tricks. Basically, they project what is behind an object to what is on the front of it using cameras, projectors, and mirrors. It's a neat idea, and he suggests some useful applications, but nothing like most were expecting upon seeing the pictures. Still, makes for some kick-ass videos.
Firstly, aren't LCDs on their way out for cheaper, better quality, and thinner OLED displays?
:)
Once those are out, there is no need for a backlight, and I seriously doubt people will want to waste space putting in a crappy ass "sound membrane" (that's what I call it) inside.
Yes they are right, this sort of speaker does create a universal "sweet spot" because it distributes the sound evenly over distance but there is a shitload more thats needed to produce good sound. The freq range of the mambrane alone is complete ass, so they would have to sell you subwoofers integrated with computer case to rattle around your HDs harmoniously
Interesting concept. The article speaks this producing "high-quality audio" -- yet I assume this must be mainly mid to high frequency sound. Any significant production of lower frequencies would certainly cause screen vibration, which might give new meaning to the term "flicker".
A picture says more than a thousand words.
...will that Aphex Twin turn into Sinatra?
"The world is going to be flat going forward," said Mr Williams.
Ahhh... come on, they've been beating into my head that the world was round since elementary school, how do they expect me change my thinking now?!?!
How did this get modded Interesting?
If you go to the FAQ on NXT's website, you'll discover they use superposition principles to produce virtual channels in the sweet spot. They can do two; supposedly three (L, R + center) is possible.
Watermark, joint-stereo, give me a fucking break. Add nonsense buzzwords to a post and get modded up! A 2-step plan for slashdot success. (Unless you meant to be funny... in which case a big YOU ARE TEH 1Di07s!!! to the mods active today)
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
How is this off-topic? i think it's right on..
http://www.digifuzz.net
i think this will probably net some cool celly-telly designs. i'd like a t-mobile sidekick, with the screen/speaker.
"Martha Stewart can lick my Scrotum......do i have a scrotum?" -- Sharon Osbourne
you cant get somethin for nothing, iin order to have top quality bass you need the right stuff for it...it would be tuff to squeeze out high quality sound out of a flat (thin) speaker of any kind. Why would anyone want this? average speakers are crappy sounding, and of course this will cost an arm and a leg as well to now have that crap come out of ur screen. I also see this as a begining to a more restricted computer, one that doesnt play illegal mp3's since the computer now has control over the monitor....and thus the speakers...see what im gettin at?
I thought the inside of the CRT looked more like a speaker, with a big magnet and a speaker-cone shape coming off of it going to the glass. But, alas, the CRT screens that were also speakers were made by Packard Bell or Compaq and had speakers attached to the side of the screen. It's quite interesting that the LCD beat the CRT to market with this technology, being that CRTs have been out for a while longer, ie. in everyones homes by the 1950s
In the long run, we're all dead.
How is this offtopic? I thought it quite funny! A vibrating screen when showing your pr0n...
Hearing through visual devices is cool but seeing through audio devices is cooler!
If you want something really cool try this:
Get this (right click link >Save As), look through your headphone jack in your cdrom, click extracted file at the same time. Enjoy! *Attention Mods* File was checked virus free, please imagine what could happen before rating.
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
is how they get the thing to vibrate enough to make decent sound without having the screen image vibrate and otherwise cause nausea-inducing eye strain.
The subwoofer for the speakers will set you back a rocket high stack of coin, cause 21 inch LCDs are still moronically priced.
adventure-today.com
thought some of you might get a kick out of this.
from googlefight
Number of results on Google for the keywords my girlfriend and my sanity:
my girlfriend (1 620 000 results)
versus
my sanity ( 485 000 results)
The winner is: my girlfriend
and you know if it says so on google, it HAS to be true.
although i've assumed this for a long time, and didn't really need googlefight to confirm this for me.. its always good to be able to know something for fact.
~ fuzz
http://www.digifuzz.net
I wonder if the sound would be affected by watching pr0n. :)
Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
Ho hum. If you can finally come up with a flexible touch screen that emits/absorbs sound, light and radio waves, THEN I'll be impressed ... single-sheet computers with all the fixin's.
Remember those handhelds in the movie "Red Planet"?
They were like sheet metal and were highly interactive with their environment.
Gimme dat, dog.
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
Now, if anyone can tell me how to get my LCD to STOP making noises, that I'd pay you for.
There are no trolls. There are no trees out here.
A speaker manufacturer has developed a speaker that can produce moving pictures as well. They claim that the picture quality is quite good, and compare it to average computer flat screen. Also NEC is making and selling computers that use this technology in Japan. Hardware integration like this should make for some interesting appliances in the next few decades.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
...not any more than your monitor afects spalling.
Here is a non-invisible link. Basically imagine if you had a camera on your back and wore a movie screen on your front. Then you set up a projector several feet away to shine the scene from the camera on your screen. This is a 5th grade science project invisible cloak. Not sure why it made the news.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Hmm, it seems we are getting closer to Star Trek technology.
I often see new ideas that are popping out that are really cool to see
but are bound to fail in the real market. But these business are
convinced that they are going to sell. Cool is not enough to sell. When
are they going to get it? Patent the idea and wait for a real
use of the technology.
The sound will obviously not be that good. I like to listen to my hip
hop music with bass. Am I going to need a second screen on the floor
for bass? Maybe have DualHead to get stereo sound...
It's simple, why spend more money for something that doesn't have the
same quality? Because it's cool? It won't be enough to convince
people.
Maybe this could work with laptops and handhelds if they could keep
the price reasonable. But I doubt they'll be able to do that.
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought.
If I want to watch DVD in surround sound, I'd need 4 of these LCD screens. Too bad DVDs don't usually have multi-angled views... Imagine what that means to 3D games, you actually have to turn your head around to see what's behind you.. This technology can make some things really interesting
That is the cool thing. Somebody out there have it already? or still in research?
I wonder how they plan on resolving the conflict that would arise with the need of the new Tablet-PC's or Pocket-PC/Palm devices to have a touch sensetive screen?
(That is if they even would decide to place the membrane there)
Here is your link, picture included. I hope you like green.....
There's a big difference between "quite good" and "average computer speakers". So which one is it?
-Nick
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
If they can place this membrane on the screen, they should open up to placing this membrane on other things....
...Toilet seats, window glass (windshield?), coffee cups, sneakers?.
Then again...maybe not.
I fear the day my cubicle talks to me.
is that what THEY are calling good sound is actually CRAPPY sound. I have spent my life in the audio industry serving the speaker makers around the world. This NXT and flat panel stuff pales incomparison to any 1/2 way decent speaker system. Sure for a laptop they may even make sence (keep things light and small) but if you want great sound from your laptop try a good set (or even not so good set) of headphones. But to think that you can replace your good speakers with this technology is a luaghable joke, JUST LIKE NXT's technology. Its cute and novel, but not really a practical application. It just proves that anything these 'new high tech' speakers can do, older speaker technology can do better, cheaper, and with way better results. But then again most people are happy with crappy sound, and these are the same people that purchase speakers based on Peak Music Power and not based on HOW THEY SOUND!!!! Ah ignorance is bliss, and there are lots of blissful people in this world!!!
. I love the sound of burning women and screaming rubber....
Yeah, it's a joke...I'm guessing someone modded it interesting beacuse they thought "synesthesia" was a cool word. Remember, just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true!
That could have the effect fo making a cell phone smaller yet making the display larger. Cooooool
- Thomas;
___ This sig is in boldface to emphasize its importance!
1) An acrylic panel has much more mass than a conventional cone. Transients will be lost, there will be more overshoot and ringing, etc.
2) The rectangular shape will have serious problems with resonances with reinforced standing waves. I doubt they have any closely representative of a flat frequency response at a reasonable (game level) volume, and their THD figures should show this.
3) How do they expect to do stereo, or surround? Multiple screens? I guess everyone is headed for multi-display setups.
4) They take up quite a bit of real-estate for their coils in the screen. Notice the three inch frame on the right and left side. I feel this pretty much blew all the advantages of integration.
True, but that doesn't change the fact that most computer speakers suck. Of course, I'm in a dorm and do save space am using my computer as a stereo so am much more picky about sound quality than most people, but still.
What I took from the article was that the sheet of material being used to generate the sound is excited by some means (ah, moving coil motors, that's it) with the result being vibration of the sheet at audio frequencies. If you want to create stereo all you'd have to do is set up one half of the sheet to vibrate and the other half not to for each different channel.
This (while presumably quite difficult to achieve in practice) is quite simple in theory. You can treat it as you would the old "waves on a string" bounding problem from your old physics course. Ignoring the additional dimension, a simple Fourier analysis will show that by adding frequencies in various combinations of phase and anti-phase you can replicate the situation where one side of the screen has signal and the other doesn't for any frequency you like (with obvious limitations due to physical factors). Vibrations in the sheet give vibrations in air and since you can control the two sides of the screen (approx) independantly you can get stereo sound.
I'd guess the only problems you'd run into would be the responsivity of the plastic sheet to vibrations at various frequencies but if you're only trying for signals across the audio band then that shouldn't be a worry.
If you can't think of something nice to say then don't say anything at all. No, REALLY.
Hardware integration like this should make for some interesting appliances in the next few decades.
Like what? Let's hear some ideas of other integrations you'd like to see...
Refrigerator/Web browser? wow.
Watch/Telephone? uh huh.
Car/Plane? dream on.
Person/Jet pack? wake up.
You probably get all this from a speaker/LCD, right? Get down off the damn cloud. All they did was merge an LCD and speaker - flat speakers have been around for years using a variety of materials.
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
Cleary, it's the mods on crack, today and everyday. That's _real_ synesthesia. (oooh pretty words make me hear stereo, MOD UP INSIGHTFUL!!!!! FOR GREAT JUSTICE)
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Using this in cell phones would be cool. The phone could increase the screen size as you wouldn't need room for a speaker.
But then you'd end up with ear wax on your screen eventually. Ich.
Jason
We have these things called 'speakers' that do this now.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
> Now, if anyone can tell me how to get my LCD to STOP making noises,
> that I'd pay you for.
Oh, I'm sure some geek will be able to do it with that screen, along the
lines of "active noise cancellation". All it takes is a good measurement
(or prediction) of the noise that your LCD generates, and then playing an
exact inverse of it. This cancels the noise.
The same principle is used in propellor avionation (remove motor noise
from comm headphones), and luxury cars ("shape" motor noise by removing
uncomfortable components, while retaining the desired ones).
Marc
Could this story be fake, do you think?
This tech is obviously not for everyone. If all you want your computer to say is "click" and "beep" and "you got mail" then this tech would be fine for you. Otherwise, turn your monitor speakers off and plug into your stereo or some nice computer speakers and subwoofer.
Of course they will have a disclaimer on this fact. Somewhere in that manual you read. You did read the manual, didn't you?
TodayTM BillyJoelTM GoogleTMd for StitchTMes due to WindowsTM while RollerbladeTMing with an AppleTM and a PopsicleTM
Here's a story about this from October 2002.
Here's a link to ribbon speaker tech.
I remember lusting after big flat panel speakers when I was a teen (15 years ago!) because they were cool-looking and were a different technology than a magnet wiggling a cone of some random material. I just love it when people rail about Bose speakers using 20 year-old technology when in fact nearly every speaker you can buy is using the same decades old technology -- the primary difference being WHAT type of cone the magnet is wiggling. Sure, some polymers sound better than some papers but its like the combustion engine - it can only go so far until a new tech replaces it.
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
Yeah. I'd like to seriously fuck that guy up.
The ass, that is.
Now... How do I get it onto a laptop LCD?
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I saw these guys last October at the AES show in LA. I was amazed at the sound quality. They were showing a Stones concert DVD. I went right up to the display and looked all around it - not a speaker in sight! One of the coolest things I've seen...
- Calfee Jones
Screw font anti-aliasing. Just shake the screen a little. Looks smoother already.
I like it.
My
Limekiller
NXT technology has been around for a while. They are ok, but the problem is you always need to have a subwoofer to make it sound better. Wharfedale used to use the NXT technology until NXT squeezed their patents too much.
I was waiting on tablet PCs for quite a while before they came out. This idea with speakers in the LCD sounds kewl to me.
:)
I want to see cell phone, PDA (particularly all the normal stylus capabilities), on-screen keyboard with some kind of special anti-smudge material on the LCD, voice recognition software built-in (not that we're super far along on such things, just like to see today's technology in this available), TV, stereo, laptop, Star Trek tricorder functions (ones we can actually duplicate with today's technology), MP3 (or preferably OGG) player functions, video phone (yeap I said video phone), card reader (I use CF mainly, but 6-in-1 functionality would be nice), magnetic RAM (when it's available and dirt cheap to buy gigs of), scanner+copier+printer capabilities (one sheet at a time albeit), full speed Athlon XP or G4 or opteron chip, etc, etc. all integrated into a tablet PC style form factor.
I know that's very ambitious, but it's what I want to see happen. Basically what most engineers would try (or at least want) to do if left to their own devices
Tempest for Eliza was getting a little old :-)
My CRT has topped that one for a while now.
That should be enough for anyone to have a BSOD.
Patent: from Latin patere, to be open
...they were surprised that anything intelligible was able to be outputted from the panel.
With appropriate weatherproofing these things could be used to spam sidewalks quite effectively.
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
or are the slashdot editors jumping the gun a bit on april 1st.
First the gzip article now this.
When you can pack your complete surround sound system into a laptop bag, give me a call...
Grab.
..Not for long......
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
...the sound quality is quite good, and compare it to average multimedia computer speakers...
so... which is it?
good quality or like the average multimedia computer speakers?
-- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
Proposed Additions to the PDP-11 Instruction Set:
BBW Branch Both Ways
BEW Branch Either Way
BBBF Branch on Bit Bucket Full
BH Branch and Hang
BMR Branch Multiple Registers
BOB Branch On Bug
BPO Branch on Power Off
BST Backspace and Stretch Tape
CDS Condense and Destroy System
CLBR Clobber Register
CLBRI Clobber Register Immediately
CM Circulate Memory
CMFRM Come From -- essential for truly structured programming
CPPR Crumple Printer Paper and Rip
CRN Convert to Roman Numerals
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