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Self-Destructing DVD's Coming Soon
BrianH writes "Looks like a close cousin of everybody's favorite self-destructing video format is making a comeback. Four years after Circuit City and its Hollywood backers pulled the plug on the self-expiring DVD concept, FlexPlay Technologies has introduced the EZ-D...a 48-hour self-expiring DVD disk. The difference? This time around you don't need a special player, and "time extensions" are no longer an option. It looks like Buena Vista has already signed on to the format, so Disney, Mirimax, and all of their other companies should be using this soon. As if that wasn't bad enough, it looks like this works for music and software disks too!" Here's an older story on these technologies.
Also great for those messages that just need to self destruct. Kind of reminds me of Inspector Gadget. I'll get you next time gadget! NEXT TIME!
I'm assuming the disc reacts with gasses in the air, so all you have to do to get unlimited viewing time is keep the dvd in a vacuum, nothing major.
Is this really a problem for people who have access to DeCSS and a DVD burner?
Cool,
:)
I hate the whole thing where you have to return rentals, now mabey those lazy folk like me will be able to rent, happy in the knowledge that we're helping create usefull landfill
Umm, can I submit a response later?
It doesn't take 48 hours to rip a DVD. ;)
Now I don't have to return the DVDs after I rent them to rip and encode. Thanks MPAA!
... and then I'm sure they'll cry victim when everybody starts copying the damn things and starts giving them all out to their friends because you can't get a permanent copy of the work.
I'll tell ya, the first thing I would do with such a thing is to back it up. Or better yet, I would just return it after it expires and tell them that it never worked right in the first place. It's not like they could prove otherwise.
Inspired by HP and its printer cartriges and now Flexplay, Ford has decided to make its cars cease to function after 60,000 miles or 10 years, whichever comes first. A press release says that "this will ultimately help consumers, as older cars just aren't as safe - for the driver or others on the road." When the time runs out, strong chemicals will be released to distroy most of the cars internal components. Disabling this protection will result in prosecution under the DMCA
I think this is just a bad idea to make more plastic for the landfills mostly, but maybe you could have a
cd with a backup copy of the software for short term license until you can talk to the vendor or something like that.
Maybe a database server's source or something like that encoded with a key which is registered with the
vendor or something like that.
eh?
Besides the obvious environmental problems with creating millions of disposable DVD's (ala AOL cd's), I don't really see much bad about these. If I could buy (read rent) a DVD for $2.00 that I didn't have to bring back to a store then I'd likely do that. Or play a self-destructing game as a sample of the full game and save $48.00 if I don't like it. Looks potentially like a money saver to me.
--
Omeganon
Omeganon
The solution is scavenger robots, that search for used-up dvds =)
"Hey give that back! I was using that as a coaster! GNggghhhh!!"
What pollution problem? What they need to do is instead of just changing the DVD into something useless, they should have it create pretty pictures to hang on the wall. Then people can build DVD houses, cars, and boats...
If you can't manage to get the vobs off of there and create yourself a longer lasting copy in 48 hours you probably don't deserve anymore stolen movies IMO. At the very least you lose your honorary "Pirate" title.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Shouldn't all copies of The Hot Chick be destroyed after 48 hours?
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
Somebody tell me again how this reduces the impulse to bootleg? They might as well just sell the nicely-printed cover art, and let people get the bits from their friends, or wherever. (Maybe they can get AOL to send them out.)
Like any technology it will have a a certain % failure, what will the rental place do if you come back before 48 hours with a dead disk?
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I know what else just expired: My willingness to plunk down my hard earned money supporting the music and movie industries.
Freedom Is Universal
Linux-Universe
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Obviously, nobody is going to pay full price for a DVD that self destructs. This is meant as a rental replacement. However, something like this could put rental places out of business.
Why? Rental places typically buy a certian number of new copies and rent them out repeatedly, after a few rentals the disc is paid for and it is pure profit on the disc after that, especially when you factor in the real money maker, late fees. When the movie is no longer a hot rental, they'll then just sell off their excess copies as pre-owned DVDs.
With the self destructing DVD, rental places will continuously have to replace their stock. They will not be able to charge late fees, nor will they be able to sell excess copies they've already made money off of. Ultimately, the rental place will no longer even be necessary since you'll likely be able to buy the destructable disc at any retail outlet or direct from the company for $2 a pop.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Capitalism at its best means that we consumers have the ability to reject this stupid idea and cause it to fail....
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
I don't have nearly as much a problem with the concept of a self-expiring disc as I do with the concept of disposability. I see that they can recycle the discs, but that you (the consumer) will have to pay postage. I think that they will have a lot more success in getting people to send the discs back to them if they are willing to pick up the tab on shipping them back. They can cut costs by not manufacturing disc blanks, the environment doesn't choke, you get a warm fuzzy feeling for doing something good. Everybody wins. My other problem is that it's called "Flexplay" when it is blatantly inflexible. Talk about a misnomer.
I don't know about anybody else - but the fact that this could be used to make DVDs simply "stop working" after so long seems to cry out "planned obsolescence". As an example, maybe they make a new generation of DVDs only lasts 6 months before it wears out (and don't tell us). That would generate a lot of profit if somebody's DVD stopped working and they really liked it (they'd either have to go buy it again, or get it copied). Ick. -6d
Gotta love it.
"The first thing I will do is make an illegal copy, then I will return it and ask for my money back by lying and saying that it never worked."
I'm no angel, but what ever happened to ethics? Are we now so numb to piracy that stealing and lying are considered the "first thing" one would do?
Am I the only one who thinks there is something just a little cracked in the general conscience?
-sk
This is just a cheap excuse to avoid digital distribution. Downloading the movies would be cooler, and more enviro.
It seems the polution comments are not getting modded up. Why? How many billions of these things are going to be produced? Where does plastic come from for the most part (hint - we just had a war over this stuff)? And recycling? Just how easy is it separate the thin metal film from the plastic? Besides that, if these things are reactive to air - the article mentions that they begin to expire as soon as their opened - that would suggest some sort of strong plastic/foil packaging.
Scrap the crap - just put it up for download.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
So, I oblige. *Inserts DVD into DVD-R*
I don't call it ripping...I call it saving lives, one movie at a time.
No really. If it's a software thing, shouldn't be too hard. If it's physical, like reacting to a catalyst, there is most likely some way to treat the discs so that they will remain usable longer...
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
Duh...I want DVD...two dollah at checkout register...works once...what a bargain!
More disposable crap to fill up the landfills with. I'm sure glad our kids are going to have to solve the problem of a throwaway society.
I guess it'd be too much to ask them to make the discs out of something degradeable or to include a mailer for recycling - but instead, they place the burden on the consumer to recycle the discs by asking us to mail the discs in off our own volition. Something I'm sure we all have time to do.
In other words, these discs will NEVER get recycled.
Seriously, as the alpha-geek crowd, we should do our part to dissuade everyone we know from even thinking of buying these.
I would do a refund thing: charge 8 bucks for the disc, and give 5 bucks for the emptied disc. This would more than encourage recycling, yet keeping the low cost.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
How long is it going to take for companies like this to realize it? turn-around traffic is way too important to rental stores for disposable media to work. IIRC, Blockbuster claimed that a full 1/3 of their rental business comes from turn-arounds.
For those unfamiliar with the term, it refers to a customer returning one video and renting another, usually on impulse, in the same visit to the store. Obviously, if there's no returns, there's fewer opportunities to visit the store. Thus, fewer rentals, impulse or planned. Needless to say, that's a Bad Thing when rentals are your business. And how much of an impact is a constant flow of disposal DVDs going to have on inventory management?
It was a loser with Circuit City DIVX. Earlier generations of self-destructing media were losers. No matter how much they improve the materials, it won't stop being a loser until they can make up for the lost traffic at Blockbuster and Hollywood.
This sig intentionally left blank.
Buena Vista: "You hear that, Mr. DVD? That is the sound of inevitability. It is the sound of your death. Goodbye, Mr. DVD." ... DVD-R!!!"
Mr. DVD: "My name is
-Dae
"Alle reden vom wetter. Wir nicht." - SDS Sozialistischer Deutscher Studentenbund.
j00 4r3 3n73r1ng l337 w0r1d.
According to MSNBC, the process is "similar to rusting", confirming our suspicions that it is a reaction to the air. They also say it's a perfectly normal DVD in the interim, so bring on DeCSS.
Read reviews of shopping cart software
And crap it is. I'm no environmentalist but the last thing we need is more garbage. If they had some recycling plan in place where the DVSs could be returned (even if its not as convenient as a video store) I might consider it. Otherwise it is one of the most obviously wasteful plans I've heard of in recent years. I wouldn't mind collecting 10-20 of them and dropping them off somewhere - it would still be easier than rental but as is I'll never tough it.
God, I wish I could think of a sig!
Well...it works for the MPAA and RIAA. I guess the "consumers" are catching up. ;-)
Speaking as someone more than 30 miles from the nearest "good" rental shop, I really hope this catches on.
The movie you are watching is one of the "blah, blah, blah blah", This DVD will self destruct in 2 days. Should you object, Disney will deny all disavow all knowedge.
Nope, I'm baffled by how acceptable theft has become. I know the big media companies are bad and want to restrict our rights, but that does not justify consuming their product and not paying for it.
The attitude of "if I can get away with it then I should do it" seems to be everywhere.
[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
I can see it now. We'll be able to buy these 48 hr movies for a few dollars but we'll have to wait a few months to be able to purchase the standard always-lasting DVD.
I know that's how VHS works, but I've been spoiled by DVD and I don't want to go back to that. For me DVD purchases are impulse buys. If I rent a movie first, I'm much less likely to buy it later on. If I'm forced to buy a 48-hr movie instead of buying the unlimited disc, I'll buy considerably less movies in the long run.
So, you're going to stand outside a rental store selling illegal copies of movies? Good luck with that...
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
I guess vinyl records last a bit longer than 2 days, but if you play one enough, it will wear down, especially in the old days. Then you've got to go get a new one. I'm sure back before tapes, repeat record purchases were at least a noticeable boost in a record company's profits.
-S
Why not?
Copyright is basically a bargain between authors and the public (which includes authors as well).
The idea is that the public wants certain desires it has fulfilled more than they would be without any copyright law at all. It grants a certain extent of copyrights in order to come out ahead. The authors often like this as well, so it's win-win.
But there are two limits: First, that if the public isn't doing better than they otherwise would be, why should they have that copyright system? Shouldn't they change it to something that better suits them? Second, the public needn't even bother having one at all. True, we'd all probably be better off with a copyright system that was just right. But we can decide not to bother, in whole or in part.
So if everyone really does feel that it's okay to copy creative works and not pay for them under some circumstances -- and we realize that this will have certain consequences and we're alright with that -- then perhaps we ought to do that.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
This comes out just after I finished installing a dvd player to watch in my hyperbaric chamber.
Maybe I don't understand how pressure works but...
If there is a bubble that pops outward under zero pressure, then wouldn't it crush under 14.7 PSI?
From what I understand, a human won't explode in space because we are built rigid enough to survive standard air pressures so our structure won't rupture from exposure to zero.
Yea, but I thought it was decided that proper landfilling and burning was cheaper and better for the environment than recycling.
/ ne ws/2003/03/02/wrecyc02.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=
Throw away the green and blue bags and forget those trips to the bottle bank: recycling household waste is a load of, well, rubbish, according to leading environmentalists and waste campaigners.
In a reversal of decades-old wisdom, they argue that burning cardboard, plastics and food leftovers is better for the environment and the economy than recycling.
They dismiss the time-consuming practice - urged on householders by the Government and "green" councils - of separating rubbish for the refuse collectors as a waste of time and money.
Glad I don't own a rental store, this could be the end of the business.
I guess I won't bother buying a DVD player then and just wait until iDVD can connect to Apples EDVD store to download the latest and greatest.
I've experiments to run, there is research to be done on the people who are still alive.
Hey.. if they want to blow another $100 million to try it again, go ahead. I personally would have figured it out the first time, but that's just me.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
So now when i want a copy to keep, "yours to keep forever" as the disney advert says... i`m FORCED to use DeCSS to copy the dvd..
But how about the expiring media we already have? movie companies expect you to buy new copies if the media gets damaged (happens eventually even if your carefull.. not to mention accidents and kids) or stolen (this is why i only have burnt cds in my car)
Media companies should provide replacement media free or at cost if you can show proof of purchase of the original.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
You're looking at pressure the wrong way. It isn't the zero pressure that's actually the problem. Its the pressure of the gas in the bubble. The same thing with human beings.
OK, it seems to be a process of oxidization which renders the disk unreadable.
How about making it fail early by placing it in a vessel of pure O2?
Under pressure.
And warm it up a bit, just for kicks.
How fast could you make this thing fail? 24h? 12h? 2h?
Tip: Don't get it too warm, and avoid using a flame as your heat source!
Depending on what gas in the air causes the reaction, it's probably the oxygen or nitrogen.
If the reactant is oxygen or nitrogen just place the dvd player in an open box with a piece of dry ice or another source of CO2. The CO2 is heaver than air so if you don't disturb it, the CO2 will stay in the box. If it's not O2 or N, bolt the box to the ceiling and fill it with helium.
Submerge the disc in an oxygen-poor environment. Someone already noted nitrogen. Possibly water (I guess it depends on the chemical reaction), oxygen gas is O-O, water is H-O-H, depending on the chemical they use it may not react with the oxygen in the water. Watch DVD, submerge in tupperware DVD holder until next viewing cycle :)
h arpie.
:)
CD/DVD layer cleaners. Those Dr. Fixit things that clean scratched CD's. The chemical has to be exposed to oxygen, why can't you just scratch off the opaqueness? Kind of a reverse write-over-the-copy-protection-on-the-CD-with-a-s
Least cost-effective: Open the DVD in a vacuum and put it in it's player, in a vacuum.
Seriously though, unless these are recycleable, I hope they fail miserably. What a huge waste of resources. More crap to throw away. What irresponsibility. What happened to ethics? Corporate responsibility? I guess you save some gas not having to return them tho. It better be cheaper than renting, cuz I live a quarter mile from a blockbuster. I don't mind renting and returning every once in a while.
More chemistry to think about: Is it the oxygen that bonds to the disc that makes the disc opaque? Or does it bind and pull whatever off the disc causing it to be unreadable, kind of like an oxygen wash? Would another chemical binding cause the disc to not be opaque and never fail? I'm no chemist, I only have a rudimentary understanding of the underlying forces. Your thoughts?
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
Would be samples of games for various systems. If they can get / keep the price down low enough (say under $5), this might work. See a new game for you PS2/XBox/GameCube/PC, but aren't sure you'll enjoy it enough to warrant dropping $40+? By the trial disk. You now have 48hrs to try the game. Probably wouldn't work as well / at all for the PC, as all I need to do is copy the disk, and then find a no-CD crack for it, and I never need to buy it, but might work for the consoles. However, for movies? No way. I thought DivX (the Circuit City one) blew chunks, and am glad it died a (fairly) quick death. Unless you either sell me these disks for under $2, OR give me a VERY large discount AT THE REGISTER when I buy a non-expiring copy of the same movie, I would not buy ANYTHING in this format. As I said, NO mail-in rebate crap, as I would not want to wait 3-4 months for a rebate. Jason A.
Do you see the FNORDS? I refuse to post anonymously, as I am fireproof!
And this is definitely a COMPELLING solution. The way I see it, every product should self destruct after 48 hours. Bought a computer? Well, a $2,000 computer should be the first thing to self destruct after 48 hours. The warranty card would read, "This warranty expires 47 hours and 59 minutes and 59 seconds and 999 milliseconds after you make up your mind to buy a computer, and not even this particular one!"
Bought a new car? They should attach explosives all over the car... don't worry, 48 hours after leaving the dealership, a buzzing sound will alert you and your passengers that you must exit the vehicle, and then the car will drive itself under automated control to a safe part of the desert before exploding. And yes, you still have to pay off the financing for the new vehicle. In fact, dealers will be extra innovative in this respect: You'll simply subscribe to receive a new car every 48 hours and your bank account will simply be debited for the $25,000 or whatever the MSRP is for each occasion. If you don't have that amount of money at the bank, the dealer will provide an alley for you to prostitute yourself in order to earn the money. In fact, it will become federal LAW that you MUST prostitute yourself in order to pay for self-destructing products, as it is the God given right of multinational corporations to enjoy eternal perpetually increasing profits, and it will simultaneously be illegal to prostutute yourself, thus putting you in a situation that you will go to jail no matter what you do, and you will have to subscribe to a new "eMafia" protection service to avoid such arrest. It will obviously be illegal to bypass any devices that make the car blow up after 48 hours, and if you do so, you'll get more time in jail than a murderer or a rapist. In fact, to make the justice system more balanced in light of today's enormous piracy problems, murder charges and rape charges will be reduced to misdemeanors, because those crimes aren't all that bad, but if you God-forbid copy an album so you can perform the horrendous crime against humanity, a thousand times worse than any genocide this world has ever seen, the criminal act of listening to an album that you paid 20 bucks for... you should be beaten nearly to death but simultaneously kept alive, and tortured, and made to suffer the worst of all sufferings of the world combined and then some, because you are the dirtiest, slimiest, shittiest, more horrible criminal this world has ever seen, and shame on you.
Oh yeah... Houses will be made to self destruct in 60 hours, to compensate for the fact that you need to move your belongings in before they self destruct.
Christ. Trust a geek to come up with a plan for bolting a helium-filled DVD-playing box to the ceiling to avoid the ELEVEN DOLLARS a brand-new DVD costs. Or are we doing this because we can? Slashdot makes me laugh sometimes.
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
I'm surprised that all of the comments here are negative. True, attempts at this sort of thing have failed before, but just because the MPAA is supporting something doesn't mean it's a horrible idea. For one, I don't think blockbuster's lost business is much of a problem. They, much like the music industry have a business model that is being made obsolete by new technology. Admittedly, expiring DVD's might be an attempt by the movie industry to get your money, but personally I am happy to see new technology being innovated that give you incentive to buy there movies (convenience) as opposed to the MPAA trying to make it so we are unable to use the technology we already have (P2P, DVD writing) to prop up an obsolete business model.
Search me
The RIAA and MPAA are hoping to hell that it is only the geeks who are ripping these movies and CD's to a non-protected format. They do NOT want the general consumer to find out how to do it.
And all it would take is for someone major like FOX News to do a story about how this "brand new technology" has been cracked 5 seconds out of the jewel case due to existing technology like DeCSS. That would blow the whole thing wide open and raise awareness on how to be able to keep what you pay for.
Poor xxAA, I weep for thee!
The "something better" being advocated here is better only for the consumer.
Well, as it is the public that is sacrificing something in order to grant a copyright to begin with, it doesn't seem inappropriate for them to be the only people that count.
However, you're underestimating what the public wants. Essentially there are two goals. First, the public wants works created. Original and derivative works. Second, the public wants to use them. And not to merely use them, but to be able to get them for free, copy them, change them, distribute them, base derivative works upon them, etc.
So you're right: this would trade off some added satisfaction for the second goal in exchange for less satisfaction of the first. However, bear in mind that there is some addition satisfaction of the first goal in the form of derivative works.
Sometimes expanding copyrights will leave the public better off than before; other times it will be harmful. Sometimes reducing copyrights will leave the public better off than before; other times it will be less better off.
Note the subtle difference -- it's because at our baseline, where there is no copyright at all, there is nevertheless satisfaction of the first goal somewhat, and total satisfaction of the second. Too much copyright, however, might be able to reduce the overall public benefit below the baseline, due to overprotection inhibiting the creation of original works (perhaps because they're labeled derivative by entrenched interests) and of course as we've seen, inhibiting public use, in the broad sense above.
Basically, there's some optimal point out there, and the idea is to find it and stay atop it. At the moment, I think we're overprotective and have overshot the optimal point.
And as already noted, there is another option. To set aside taking pains to balance the system, and instead just satisfying specific goals. Perhaps due to administrability issues. If people wanted noncommercial copying to be legal, even though this might prevent the optimal point from being reached, so long as it is above the baseline, I don't have a serious problem with that.
In short: if fewer works are created, but everyone is overall happier and better off -- so be it. Some things come at too high a price.
The problem is that there is nothing more than a desire to get something of value for free on the part of the consumer in this case.
That is in fact the entire purpose of the copyright system to begin with.
The author (or owner) of the creative work is not paid what he is owed. How is that anything other than theft?
Well, assuming we're dealing with legal reforms, the question is in error. The author isn't owed anything to begin with if the law doesn't extend his copyright that far.
And theft of course is a pejorative that really has no place here. It doesn't describe what's going on in a legal sense, and the only reason people bother to invoke the T-word at all is to make a cheap character attack. Would it kill you to use the proper term? Aren't your arguments strong enough to work without slurs?
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
The point is not to prevent copying. It is to destroy the movie rental business, or at least give the studios a much larger take. It's another "magic bullet" that the large studios have been looking for to bring in to eliminate the annoying rental houses that detract from their profits.
The nifty fringe benefit may be to eventually destroy the "fair use" argument used by those defending cracking of their security algorithms. If you defeat the protection on the disc (using one or more of the techniques already discussed here), you were only licensed it for 48 hours -- you have no fair use rights beyond that time limit. Ditto for duping a copy to your hard disc. Yeah, rip all you like for 48 hours, but if you're prosecuted, you have zero rights to that media after that time window expires.
I'm concerned about the recyclability factor, but not so much about the introduction of the media. From where I sit, it will probably play out a lot like phone cards. Yeah, there's a certain segment of the population that uses disposable phone cards rabidly. There are others that use them on an as-needed basis, and still others (like myself) that have never used a disposable phone card and never intend to. The studios know that people like to watch movies once a year or whatever, and they'd be stupid to ignore that segment of the population.
And if it doesn't drive the price of real DVD's up, why should I care? I'm not a huge fan of the MPAA or RIAA, but neither am I averse to rewarding them for publicizing quality entertainment that I really enjoy. The release of Evanescence's album, "Fallen", has me totally spellbound right now. And I'm really not the kind of person to normally listen to an album over and over...
Anyway, that's a tangent. There are a lot of "stick it to the MP/RIAA"-types here on Slashdot, and for them the self-destructing, cheap DVDs will be a boon. For those of us who feel a desire to reward artists legitimately for the enjoyment we get from their craft, we'll still have all the old options left...
Matthew P. Barnson
I learn what I think when I read what I write
The "something better" being advocated here is better only for the consumer.
At this point, better only for the consumer shouldn't be a stretch. Don't forget that the original argument for copyright is to maximize the value of the public domain. By encouraging authors to produce works that will later enter the public domain and benefit everyone, that is. From the current state of the laws, we could back all the way out to registered copyrights with one extension and your argument is still valid, but just as irrelevant.
The fundamental issue is that moral and legal are not the same thing and these laws are the perfect example of that observation. In general, law is a tool for society to express a consensus morality (simplistically, it's right for people to be compensated for their work). In copyright law, however, that good idea got hijacked by people with the funds to get the law to say "It's mine and you can't have it ever." Just about everyone interested enough to pay attention to the issue recognises the imbalance of the laws and the reaction is predictably rebellious. When a law doesn't represent consensus morality, we naturally become scofflaws.
So with an attitude even more brazen than most people have about ignoring speed limits, we as a society have decided that copying most works is not wrong, even though we are aware that it's illegal. With the laws so far beyond ridiculous, the right question is not to wonder why people are happily copying DVD's, but to wonder who thought that these laws could possibly reflect morality or influence behavior?
But then, a quick analysis quickly leads to the conclusion that the DMCA was not intended to reflect morality but to simply keep money in the hands of the moneyed. Which is a crying shame, since most of the benefit of capitalism comes when there are serious financial consequences for failing to provide competitive value to your customers. As Marx should have taught us, when the playing field can be changed to benefit those with capital, you don't have capitalism any more. It's mercantilism and it's our modern reality.
Regards,
Ross
I'm not a Marxist, but his criticisms of the system of his day were quite cogent. He was objecting to moneyed interests levering government influence to further their own interests at the expense of their employees, their customers, those who had to live near their stinking polluted plants, etc. He just happened to believe that all of that was part and parcel of capitalism when instead it's an unfortunately common corruption of capitalism.
>This is designed to be similar to a video shop transaction.
Okay, lets assume this isn't a hamfisted attempt to push DRM down the throat of Joe Sixpack. While all these useless DVD discs pile up in the local landfill, someone out there is getting a pizza delivered.
I wonder what's best for the long-run? A peapod-like video store or 48-hour DVDs? You still have to drive out to the store to buy the DVD in the first place.
Also, video stores makes a lot, if not most of, their money off late fees. I wouldn't expect these things to be that much cheaper than the offerings at your local video store.
Also, where exactly is the market for this? People too lazy to goto the video store AND who also don't have pay-per-view AND don't want to subscribe to NetFlix? Yeah right, I'm sure these 800 people are going to love DRM-DVD.
It should be interesting to see how these effect the storage market and the film industry. Imagine a game that requires a CD that expires in 48 hours.
..
Hmm.. When I first read that, I misinterpreted your mention of the "film industry" to mean they'd use this as a plot point.
NEXT SUMMER.. IT'S JAMES BOND.. IN A RACE AGAINST TIME!
[M] James Bond, we need you to get this DVD to a scientist held prisoner in a North Korean jail!
[James Bond] Sounds too easy. What's the catch?
[M] You only have 48 hours-- before the DVD's copy-protection makes it disintegrate!
And of course james bond slams the dvd into the north korean prisoner's imac with 5 seconds left before the disk oxidizes or whatever, after which we get to see a tense moment while COPYING FILE appears on screen and a progress bar tries to outrun the dying DVD while the seconds tick down... will it be copied in time?
Find out, in
007: JAMES SCREWS SOME CHICKS AND THINGS BLOW UP
[[ This film is not yet rated ]]
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Can't speak for the 799 others, but I'd like this. If I could pick up a 48-hour DVD for a few bucks, that'd be a good deal to me. I don't have pay-per-view, I hate making two trips to Blockbuster for a single movie, and Netflix is a bad deal unless you rent at least four or five movies a month. There just aren't that many movies I'd like to see. Plus, since you don't need to have a rental system in place, they could stick these things anywhere: 7-11, grocery stores, Wal-Mart...all places I usually go anyway. I'd love to be able to pick up an occasional movie "rental" when I stop for gas or groceries, without having to worry about returning it by such-and-such a date. It's like DivX without the expensive equipment, the invasive privacy issues, or the hassle. Pretty cool stuff, actually.
And what's with all the yelling about DRM? I hate overly-restrictive DRM as much as anyone, but how is an essentially normal DVD that just stops playing after 48 hours any worse than a normal DVD that you have to give back to Blockbuster tomorrow? DivX, with all its nonstandard technology, "activation" crap, etc. was ugly. But this EZ-D thing you can play in any DVD player, there's no one tracking what you're doing with it...what's the big deal? It's not like these are going to replace real DVDs in the market. This technology is made to target renters, not buyers...
DennyK
This could be a great rental-fee saver for my friends and I.
If I unseal the movie and watch it in 3 hours, it still has 45 hours of life left. I can then pass it on to someone else to watch because, unlike regular rentals, I don't have to trust them to return it.
I have a feeling video stores are not going to like this. Or do they get the majority of their money from people without friends?
- mib
Maybe this is my European mindset, but how will this affect the environment? First of all, the production of optical media is quite environmentally unfriendly, and second, how much people will actually return a DVD like that? Imagine the extra amount of waste...
You know, I got about halfway through your post before discerning whether you were talking about consumers infringing copyrights or multi-national conglomerates price-gouging and price fixing.
I pay for t-shirts, cds, tickets, etc to support local, unsigned bands. But when it comes to the major media companies, I'm going to play their game until they either play fairly or die. I prefer the latter.
They want to hike up the price for CDs to rates so high even the FTC can't stand it? No problem; I'll just make sure that the CD gets spread around a bit to compensate. They want to screw over artists who are too small to fight back? No problem, I'll simply refuse to montarily support the lying bastards.
You see, you don't get that this isn't about theft, or copyright infringement, or intellectual property. This is a cat and mouse game between the average Joe and massive multi-nationals. They started this little game, and now the average Joe has the technology to fight back. I support the rights of artists to profit from their works so they may continue to produce them full time. I support the securing of those rights via copyright. I support the general idea and original intent of intellectual property. What I do not support is the crminal enterprises which use copyright, patent, and intellectual property laws as a weapon to hold artists and consumers hostage. What I do not support is the abuse by these criminal enterprises of the laws and the judicial system to further their solitary purpose: bleeding the world dry of all possible disposable income through all means necessary.
My attitude has nothing to do with "getting away with it". There are a lot of things I could get away with, which I choose not to do. No; I choose to do what I do out of a conscious effort to level the playing field. I see no problem with robbing the crooks to fullfill the original intent of securing rights to intellectual property - the advancement of art and entertainment for the benefit of the general public.
Call it piracy, call it infringement, call it theft, call it whatever you like; I call it winning one for the home team, and we're by no means finished yet. The stricter the laws they lobby for, the harder they push to control the masses, the more people like me will backlash against them. If Hilary Rosen wants to claim she's starving because of myself and those like me, I have this to say to her: Let her eat cake.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Damn! If only there existed some sort of device that would copy a DVD in less than 48 hours, a so-called 'DVD-copier'. May thee rot in the depths of technological hell, Flexplay Corporation and your cursed, foolproof technology.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
A DVD or VHS used for rental typically costs six times more than a retail copy.
At (for example) GBP60 for a new movie on VHS (as Rainman was on it's release), the tape has to be rented 120 times at GBP2 just to break even on the purchase price - that's every night for 3 months - to say nothing of the store overhead.
Now add to this the fact that you can never have just *one* copy of a new release on the shelf, or your customers will go elsewhere.
This is why your corner video store HAS to charge late fees, and sell off pre-rental tapes... and why they get annoyed at customers who complain about paying a GBP10 late fee and then won't return the tape, saying "That's what the tape costs, why shouldn't I keep it?"...
The economics of a single video rental shop are marginal (pardon the pun) - the bread and butter is made not from A-list movie releases, but B-list and back catalogue material, as well as actual "retail" meterial like snacks and drinks.
Now, consider instead the disposable DVD scenario: the economics change from the rental to pure retail model.
Instead of having to buy 5 copies at GBP60 each and rent them 600 times at GBP2 a time to break even, they can buy 200 disposables at GBP1.50 each and make a guaranteed GBP0.5 on each sale.
Even better, if 50 customers want to see the new Vin Diesel exploderama on the day it is released, they can, and they don't need to go to your competitor.
Plus, the opportunity of "sale or return" on stock arises, so the video store can hold a thousand copies of "Things Exploding" on the day of release, and send back any used copies for credit.
Finally, expect this "disposable format" to only be used for A-list titles in the first 3 months or so of their release, and subsequently revert to standard "long life" format.
In fact, it's a shame that this didn't/couldn't happen a long time ago, as Blockbuster would never have got a foothold in the market.
This sig left unintentionally blank.
I'm betting that the disk is made with photo-sensitive plastic, and that the envelope it comes in is sealed against light, not air.
To activate the disk, (to make it readable), you probably need to let it expose for a while, (like a Polaroid snapshot), and then 48 hours later, after the initial exposure, the chemical photo-alters beyond the range readable by the average disk player.
Not a bad system. --If you're a paranoid media company charged with keeping a stranglehold on knowledge.
If you want to crack such a system, you'll need to own a computer with ripping software. Luckily, this will remain a possibility forever, since the National Security State wants people to remain distracted with all the dumb movies and bullshit media designed to keep their attention away from the actual important things going on in the world.
The best way to lock down a geek? Give them a technical puzzle and 'forbid' them from solving it. You could sell pig-shit to a nerd if you encrypted it first.
-FL
I swear I must have paid more in late fees than I ever paid for video rentals. I bet I'm not alone. Late fees are an important revenue stream for video stores. Since there is no chance of them collecting late fees on these disposable disks, they will definitely have to charge each customer more per rental. And that's saying nothing about the actual cost of the disposable disk itself...
--Which I think is an interesting point!
Mind you, (when I last checked, and this was years ago), the average cost of a new video cassette of a recent movie release purchased by a video rental store was about $100. --All those rows of the latest Bruce Willis film represent a one or two thousand dollar investment for your local Schlock Buster. This expense will clearly not be an issue with a disposable medium.
Which is interesting! The video rental market, if this meidum is adopted, will transform into something resembling the book or direct comics market, where disks are paid for by the retailer at a discount on the 'cover' price, which is then paid in full by the customer.
--And here's the best part; There will probably be some system whereby disks are returnable after a set period of time if they don't sell. (Talk about time-sensitive media!) Which means that the selection in the average video store will become even worse. Yay for that. Now, more than ever, our media libraries will be as limited as people's memories. People will watch what they are directed to watch. (You can have your car in any color, so long as it's black.)
Hopefully, this will only spur on the media pirate market, which will almost certainly NOT sell self-destructing media. --In this sense, China is a good example of the free market driving in a sensible direction. Go out to a Chinese mall sometime and look at the pricing scheme on DVD's and VCD's. Pirating is rampant, with stolen disks costing only about $5 each. Strangely enough, the official media companies, (in Asia at any rate), don't seem to be suffering much, still making lots of movies with huge sales. --They have been able to compete, selling new and offical disks for about $8. Which would you rather own? A half-assed copy or a well made real copy for a couple of dollars more? Instead of buying no DVD's when I last visited a mall, I bought 4, one of which was an official disk. That's exactly $8 more than I would have normally spent.
And this is exactly the way a free market is supposed to work! Pirating is the American way. Too bad the American is no longer the American way. --Through state sanctioned monopolies and the whiney, patent-based outlawing of competetion, the US has managed to become a communist state, (and without any of the benefits of communism, no less!)
What a joke.
-FL
Bad laws foster disrespect for the law, and there is a distinction between legal and ethical. Laws allowed slavery (not just in the US, and people all of ethnic origins have been enslaved), women did not have the vote, there are many bad laws - how many residents of states which outlaw oral sex respect that law? Convicts were transported to Virgina and Australia for petty theft...
Civil disobedience is a respected form of protest - now a few geeks copying dvds isn't necessarily civil disobedience a la Gandhi, but if most of the population of the US accepts this behaviour- then that law must fall. The copyright laws should be adjusted back to the previous state - the life of the creator plus a few years, and the principle of First Sale should be enshrined in law.
If EULAs are unlawful for books, then are they lawful for software? Both are published works protected by copyright, First Sale should apply here too. Software should not have any less protection than other copyright works (which have too much anyway), but it should definitely have no more.
I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
They may be outside the capability of the average consumer, but if anyone figures out a way of doing it cost-effectively in volume, then there's a business opportunity there;
Step 1: buy a self-destructing rental for $5,
Step 2: run it through your process which you've got down to $4/disc
Step 3: sell it for $15.
Step 4: Profit!
Sure, it may be of dubious legality, and will be made definitively illegal in the U.S.. But that will not stop some shady organizations from trying to espablish a huge grey market in the U.S. or elsewhere!
You think that's unrealistic? Well, disposable camera producers are fighting a similar problem. Disposable cameras typically get returned to the manufacturer for recycling. But several "businesses" started buying used camera bodies for $.10 each directly from photo developing places and re-loading them with film and re-selling them on the grey market. The big disposable camera producers are pissed off about this and fire off lawsuits left and right when they find someone doing this, but there's not much more they can do. Everyone involved is just trying to make a profit: the manufacturer can try to buy back the camera at $.15, but someone will offer $.20, and how much profit do you thing those camera manufacturers really make per unit?
It worked with DivX. The reason that failed
was that MOST people avoided it. If you ever
see a product you want that is only available
in this new EZ-D format, contact the company
and tell them that you are not only not buying
it, but that you will not buy any of their
other products either, until they stop using
that system. When enough of us do that, they
will have a simple choice; stop using the
system and have out money, or continue to use
that system and NOT have our money. I believe
that like DivX, they will choose our money...
Just get a can of clear laquer and spray the surface
It will dry translucent and stop any further reaction with the air.
This sounds great! Just imagine, no more late pornos! Don't you just hate it when you've got your S.O. at the rental place and they ask for a late fee on "Lesbo Love Fest #69"
I thought the prime time for ripping CD's and DVD's was as soon as you got them out of the box? that way there are fewer scratches and less chances of errors (ok modern error correction is pretty good but still..) So this is another pointless technology? well atleast now people will have a real reason to "backup for personal use"
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Seriously, does anyone think that some little startup has so completely exhausted the realm of human knowledge in proving there are no countermeasures? I doubt it.
There's nothing like 5 billion people looking for a Something-for-Nothing win to subvert a concept like this.
Everyone seems to be interested in the chemistry behind this, but the article posted here does not go in-depth about this, which has lead to many misunderstandments.
We will never know what happens exactly, as this will obviously be a trade secret. I will buy a DVD like this as soon as they are available, even though I don't have a player for it. Just to see the effects of changing the environment in which the DVD is kept, and see if it slows down or speeds up the process.
Let's summarize:
There are two technologies, SpectraDisc and Flexplay.
Both Flexplay and SpectraDisc add a chemical time bomb to DVDs that begins ticking once the package is open and the discs are exposed to air.
SpectraDisc applies an outer chemical layer to the disc that begins evaporating and changing in color as the expiration time nears.
Flexplay integrates its chemicals into the inner layers of the disc.
SpectraDisc DVDs turn blue. Flexplay discs also turn darker, becoming so opaque that the laser inside a DVD player no longer can read the disc. Eventually, the laser beam is not reflected anymore, because the disc has become too dark.
Spectra Science won't say exactly how its technology works, just that the chemical reaction is similar to how litmus paper works. Once the disc is put in the player and is hit by the DVD laser, it starts a process that eventually turns the disc blue, and blocks the DVD player's ability to read the disc.
SpectraDisc's self-destructing DVDs can be reused if a new coat of the play-limiting chemicals is reapplied. Apply those chemicals, and your DVD works again.
Flexplay's discs can only be broken down and recycled as plastic waste. Without opening the Flexplay package, the DVD will become unreadable after a year. Which means the reaction also occurs in the wrapping, although a lot slower.
None of these technologies disable the possibility to be copied. A DVD can be ripped in about half an hour, and no technology is built in to stop you from doing that. But you can also copy a rented VHS. In fact, this is renting, it's just that "giving it back" is replaced by "making it unreadable", which has the same result: you once had a working copy, and a bit later, you don't.
Think about it. Now Disney has a way of milking more money from you. If you have kids then you will know what I am talking about. Kids' don't watch the movie once or twice they watch it until they can recite the movie word for word. Come to think of it I know some adults that are like that too. If they make this into the DVD sales then your movie expires after say 6month then your kids are wanting to watch the movie but it has expired. So you run down to the store to buy another copy. Or if they start counting the number of times the movie is watch. Expires after 4 viewings. This could get ugly.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.
Take a look at the following US Patents: 6537635 and 6511728. My best guess is that their first gen disc uses the Silver/Aluminum redox effect. This is dead easy to block, and, moreover, is reversible. This stuff could be a lot of fun to play with. (p.s., the full text of the patents is available on the US PTO database- use any search engine to get the URL)
A lot of people are speculating that exposure to air is what will cause these disks to cease working. My hypothesis would be an exposure to light.
.02
After being exposed to light, the disk then takes approximately 48 hours for the chemical agent to cure. It's probably some derivative of silver nitrate (used in photographs) and will opaque the disk, and the laser will then be unable to read it.
Just my
Everyone is railing against this as if it is doing some personal harm when all this is about is allowing rentals without worrying about returning the DVD.
Now grocery stores can sell DVDs in the check out lane for $5. When you want to watch it, you take it out of the package and now you have two days to see the movie. No one in their right mind would watch Lord of the Rings special extended ultramega DVD this way as it takes a week to watch all the extra stuff, but for Disney Cartoon #a004-d this is perfect.
It isn't about anti-copying really, it is about not having to set up a system to track returns. My only key concern is they've set up a shelf-life for media that stores now have to worry about. So instead of having a copy of every possible movie, the stores will only stock the movies that get rented constantly. So much for getting "Escape to Witch Mountain" on DVD this way.
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
All this tells me is corporate america loves disposable society where everything moves towards use once and throw away. There is no way in hell I'm going to fork out 2 or 5 dollars for once of these lame DVD's. Hell, i will gladly pay 25 to order DVD's from Canada, UK or any other country that treats consumers like human beings. Disney can take their straight to video crap and blow it out their rear. Disney hasn't made anything good in the last 8 years and never will until the idiot CEO is kicked out of office. Eisner has done everything in his power to ruin the company walt built. for those who don't remember, disney was created so that both parents and kids could find entertainment. He made the point of making his movies intelligent and thoughtful. Not moron, thoughtless pieces of snot.
It's because the obvious next step is content that ONLY comes out on this media... like a movie your kids really want to watch. Think they are not this stupid/greedy? Then you don't know the Disney of today and its ilk.
A very plausible scenario is releasing a time-decay DVD version of a cartoon months before a full DVD... and also making the price of full DVD's a lot higher because there is a time-limited version.
It will be good for rental stores though, no returns...
Personally, instead of trying to thwart the physical medium I think I would tend to just copy the data if it were all that important to me!!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Probably no one will read this because its old news, but...
The technology cannot be hacked by programmers who would want to view the disc longer because the mechanism which closes the viewing window is chemical and has nothing to do with computer technology.
Two things: who cares about the orignal disc? 'Programmers' (now every programmer is also a cracker, according to MSNBC) will just copy it to a new non-degrading media. And of course, there will be real 'hackers' that will figure out the chemical reaction and a way to prevent it.
The technology used is called Lexan, and probably holds a patent, which can be viewed and figured out. When the article says recycled does that mean it will degrade? or does it mean it can be returned to factory to 'reset' the coating? it it's the latter, then we'll probably figure it out on our own sonner or later.
Who really benefits from this schema? not rental stores, which usually depend on late fees and impulse-rental that comes when returning the video. Probably only the distribution houses. Which brings another point. I assume this process adds a cost to the manufacturing and packaging of the DVD, yet the final price will have to be lower than a normal one (I'd guess between 5-10 dollars). So that means that the real profit comes from normal DVDs for the higher margin in the sale. Then, if they just lowered the prices for normal DVDs, they'd still make more money and not pollute the environment with useless DVDs.
Just some thoughts for now.
Signatures are supposed to be funny?
More like you can pay $unknown for the FlexPlay DVD at your local supermarket or Target. Then play it for two days after you break the seal and never have to return it. I'd say that's worth more than $3, probably not more than $4.
The other thing may be that the movie studio might make more money off this deal, since they get paid for each "rental", which I don't think they do right now.
Nope. For me the Destructo-DVD would have to cost less than $1 (75 cents for a good movie - 25 cents for the unpopular ones). Since packaging, distribution, and printing costs will jack the price up they would be charging me $1.50 and that is too much money to waste my time with for something that turns to crap in 48 hours.
Since packaging would have to be dirt cheap I figure the best format is a paper square (like the super cheap music CDs and super incompetent software industry corporations use) with the Destructo-DVD encased within a metal foil poly flat bag with a tear strip on the edge (to keep out the air and to provide easy opening).
Since actual production costs will also be slightly even more expensive than a regular DVD the incentive should be just to make the REAL DVDs that do not destruct at a reasonable price since the profit model is much better for the REAL DVDs by any stretch of the imagination. For example - I have a ZARDOZ DVD and it cost me $10. A Destructo-DVD version of ZARDOZ would have be sold for $0.50 for me to even barely consider buying it. The retailers cannot make a profit on the Destructo-DVD except in massive volumes and buying a truckload of "odd lots" of Destructo-DVD shipments. The storage and inventory model is increased massively for the Destructo-DVDs with little in profit to justify these "turn to crap" time-limited pieces of landfill bloat. On the upside, I can understand GE Plastics wanting this profit model as they can sell more LEXAN plastic with the justification of "a workable profit model". Meanwhile the retailers are going to have to dump their inventory bloat of unprofitable Destructo-DVDs on the Dollar Store retailers (which will probably be the only functional profit model for the mostly useless Destructo-DVDs overspilling the "odd lot" bins in Wally-World's profit model).
I can only see people with very little money and little regard for the value of the time spent earning their money eventually purchasing the Destructo-DVDs for any reason. I cannot see the major retail chains even considering adding the Destructo-DVDs to their shelves (and quickly later to over-flowing "odd lot" bins). I cannot see anyone other than the very wealthy and the very stupid folks buying entertainment that has little in permanence (though people do still pay money to go to a movie theater to view a movie only once for their money) and much in litter value.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
If you drive more than 1 mile to the rental store to return a DVD, then this technology is BETTER for the environment than rentals. 1 mile ~ 1/20 of a gallon of gasoline burned up in smoke 1 EZD ~ much less than 1/20 of a gallon of plastic, plus it can be recycled. This technology could save millions of gallons of gas and tons of CO2, CO and NOx. (Not to mention millions of wasted hours driving.) Sounds like an improvement to me.
You can't rob a thief.
This is a great way to make a 1 time pad. Just put a random bunch of 1s and 0s on 2 discs with this tech. Then when you have a sensitive message to send you encode it with this disc, which then self destructs after 2 days. If the time could be made shorter it would be good. But it would be pretty obvious if someone had peeled off the protective layer that your message had been compromised. The only danger would be if the media was somehow readable after the rusting process with a special treatment or the like.
I guess you could always make doubly sure by damaging the disk further.
Yup, as others have posted, here is a list of things that this would be useful for.
Seems like a good idea to me. Just make sure they don't degrade until you open the package and it's OK with me.
This won't kill the regular DVD's that are for sale.
Not so great for video games as you generally want more time then 48 hours. But I don't rent games to play to win. I rent to try it out before I buy it. If it sucks, I don't buy a copy. If I find I really like the game I buy it. There's a whole lot of crappola PS2 titles out there so I've been burned before and I don't have time to read all the reviews and keep up on the latest one hit wonder game title. I also don't have 48 hours to play the game non-stop, I have a job and girlfriend so that's out.
As it was for DIVX. And we all know how many of those were recycled (hint - more than expected, since most of the discs were never bought!)
sulli
RTFJ.