Laptops Outsell Desktops in Retail Stores

TechnoPope writes "According to this article on MSNBC.Com, laptop computers accounted for 54 percent of of 500 Million in retail computer sales last year. Also mentioned was that LCD's outsold CRT's in retail as well. "

Comments

BAAAAAA

[brakk]

It's amazing what sheep will do when you tell them they should.

Re:BAAAAAA

[robogun]

What, are you kidding me? If you read the article instead of trying to hit first post, it says people are buying laptops for the portability -- imagine that! I thought we all wanted smaller & easier to use.

Not discussed in the article, CRTs and desktops use much more energy. Laptops can be used when the power is out - what a concept, not just a UPS where you can gracefully shut down when the power goes out.

The desktop is king only where unit cost is important. Oh, and gaming.

Re:BAAAAAA

[pyrote]

It's amazing what sheep will do when you tell them they should.

This is about laptops, not social reform in wyoming.

Re:BAAAAAA

[brakk]

That's exactly what THEY want you to think.

Re:BAAAAAA

[Anonymous Coward]

>>The desktop is king only where unit cost is important.

Exactly, this means that more desktops were sold, a lot more, but since laptops cost probably at least 50% more than desktops, the dollar amount becomes higher than desktops. Same goes for the CRT screens (to a lesser extent).

You also figure that people buy new laptops more often than desktops (since you can just swap out components from desktops), and the effect is even greater.

Sure, laptops and LCD are becoming more and more popular, but desktops and CRT will be king for a few more years yet. desktops are generally faster, cheaper, better for games, and *gasp* more ergomically correct (I'll never figure out that laptop keyboard, and hunching over a laptop will never apeal to me). They're hotter and non-portable in general, but that's a choice for each person to make.

Re:BAAAAAA

[brakk]

Did you think that up all on your own?

Too bad you had to resort to name calling.

and as an AC at that.

Re:BAAAAAA

[praedor]

Eh? Your laptop is good for what, an hour? Hour-and-a-half max if you are actually doing anything? Big deal. You can do without a puter for at least that long during a power failure and not die. Also...next year NEC is planning to produce a DESKTOP system running on their power cell (same one as they will use in their laptops late this year) that will provide laptop-like time for a desktop. The only thing a laptop will have is portability. It can't hold a candle to a desktop for CPU and video power in the best case, of course.

Re:BAAAAAA

[Anonymous Coward]

The bonehead pundit in the article also claims that people buy LCDs because of the appeal of "slim profile and sleek looks". Not, say, the part you actually look at when you're using it.

Where do they find these "analysts"? Shouldn't we ship them all off in an interplanetary craft with the telephone sanitisers et al?

Re:BAAAAAA

[steveg]

Eh? Your laptop is good for what, an hour? Hour-and-a-half max if you are actually doing anything? Big deal.

When this laptop was new, I regularly got 3-4 hours of constant use out of it. I wasn't doing multimedia, etc., just coding, but it *was* constant use. The battery has gotten a bit more wear on it, and I'm lucky to break 2 1/2 hours these days. Still, that's a lot better than an hour.

And its portability means I can work on the patio at my favorite coffee shop or where ever I prefer.

Re:BAAAAAA

[JesterXXV]

Um...he's stating a fact. The only reason anyone would ever buy an LCD screen is because (A) it takes up less space or (B) it looks cool (or possibly (C) it uses less power, but usually that's a fringe benefit). Nobody buys them because they have a better picture because...they don't.

Extract cranium from rectum.

Re:BAAAAAA

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot flicker-induced headaches and eyestrain (which thankfully isn't a problem for many people).

Re:BAAAAAA

[matty619]

Interesting timing as not more than 1 hour ago, I just purchased my first laptop on ebay. I bought it becuase there is work I need to do where it would be impossible to take a pc (peoples roofs for antenna alignment) but I will NEVER use a laptop as my primary machine. Price, power, and upgradablility are all things laptops desperatly lack. That and I can build myself a kick ass computer out of spare parts in about an hour. I can have 3 monitors, a kick ass sound system, 3 hard drives, a wireless keyboard and mouse, the configurations are endless. Besides, where would I put all those cool neon lights flourescent fans on a laptop? -M@

Outsold in dollars not units.

[Snags]

Not included in the article is discussion of the fact that, per unit, more desktops/CRTs are sold than laptops/LCDs because of the costs. When people buy more laptops/LCDs despite the price, then I'll be impressed.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[The Grinner]

Ummm. . . Actually if you were paying attention to the article you'll see that at least with the LCD's they seem to be refering to % of total sales not the value of said sales. (i.e. In May 2002, LCDs were only 22 percent of total monitor sales, said NPD. This past May, that more than doubled to 52 percent.) Admitidly though the article was a bit more ambiguous with the PC/Laptop sales and I can see how that one could be read either way.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's still ambiguous, and leads me to believe they're talking about $ sales in both areas. And fucking spell right if you're going to make a lame-ass attempt at flaming somebody.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I think it's referring to the number of times they went on sale. Since stores are always trying to push the higher-priced laptops, they're bound to have more sales and rebates, etc.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[Snags]

The article did seem vague. But going to NPD's press release on the study, the Desktop/Laptop numbers were for dollars while the CRT/LCD numbers were for units. I am duly impressed with LCDs.

Now, I'll be impressed when there are more LCDs in use than CRTs.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[interiot]

Outsold in dollars may be important to R&D people (rather than consumers), as they're likely to spend a greater percentage of their development efforts on the products that make companies the most money. So this could be the real tipping point where LCDs start coming down in price quickly.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[jez9999]

I won't. The day they invent an LCD that can display a large variety of different resolutions well, I'll be impressed. Until then, i'm sticking with my wonderful CRT.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[WuphonsReach]

640x480 or 800x600 when displayed on a 1024x768 LCD does look horrible due to the jaggies. However, if the LCD DPI goes up to say 200dpi (instead of 85-115dpi which is common today), resolution scaling will become a lot less noticable. My latop is 125dpi (if I did the math right), which makes text much crisper as a result. Image scaling still looks funky though which means that the resolution at which you won't really notice it is probably 200dpi or so.

IBM had a display that was 200 or 300 dpi - they were selling it as a way to view digital X-Rays.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[Anonymous Coward]

good point

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many resolutions do you look at in a day? I run 1280x1024 natively, and only when I'm booting up or playing Diablo do I drop out of that resolution. Even entry level CPUs (assuming a not-too-shabby video card) can do most games at that resolution with quite a few bells & whistles enabled. I've been running everything up to and including Unreal 2 and Metal Gear Solid with no issues at all.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[jez9999]

As a matter of fact, I still play a lot of DOS games :-) So I happen to use a ton of different resolutions. DOS games were very fond of 320x200, so I often use that. In addition, some DOS games and early Windows games were designed for, and look much better in, 640x480 or 800x600. I run 1024x768 on my desktop normally, so I need a monitor that can display all of them 'smoothly', which most LCDs can't do. The latest games might be able to run in several resolutions, but they were designed for a particular one (the one the developers preferred) so it's best to be able to switch between em a lot if you play lots of games.

Re:Outsold in dollars not units.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The day they invent an LCD that can display a large variety of different resolutions "

Oh, and one which didn't blur whenever anything moved would be nice! "Come in in sir - yes, you can scrap your perfectly good £180 monitor which you`ve had for 8 years and get a smaller one which blurs when you play games or watch a DVD, will probably fail in a year or two like those £7000 plasma TVs from just a couple of years ago are already starting to do".

Yep, nothing like replacing perfectly good equipments just to keep up with the sad boys.

Laptops Rule!

[webguru4god]

I love my laptop so much, I couldn't even think of having a desktop computer! I love being able to go mobile wherever I am, and with a wireless card, my laptop is all I need. Sure, it's slower than a lot of desktops, but most desktops are overpowered for most uses anyway. Steve Jobs: "This is the year of the laptop!"

Re:Laptops Rule!

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my laptop so much, too. It really depresses me to see it disappear as I stand up. But you can hardly imagine my joy at having it return as I sit down again.

Re:Laptops Rule!

[pimpybra]

Overpowered? What the hell does that word mean? Surely you jest!

Re:Laptops Rule!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh this is neat! You use Perl and Anonymous Coward is not some uber-poster who has an unhealthy fixation with this site.

I have a laptop becaue I live in a small flat. I need the space.

Re:Laptops Rule!

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck yeah. It's like having too much overkill. You can never have too much overkill.

Economy

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder the rest of the economy's in trouble....

LCDs outselling CRTs?

[kevin_conaway]

Now that LCD monitors are getting more and more affordable, of course the better technology will sell over the lesser. As far as laptops over desktops, I believe large corporations account for the majority of computer purchases and from what I have seen in my own company, everyone gets a laptop and a docking station (to simulate a desktop).

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[intermodal]

dude. the article was about retail, not corporate bulk

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that LCD monitors are getting more and more affordable, of course the better technology will sell over the lesser.Ahem, CRTs are still brighter, better-looking, and have better color than LCDs. LCDs are just "cool".

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[yintercept]

I would not be surprised if flat screen displays doesn't reverse the trend of laptop sales out pacing desktops. The main reason for buying a laptop is size. In most companies the cost of having people move CRTs around the office is more than price differential between lap tops and desktops. It costs about $20 more to ship a computer with a 17" CRT than a laptop.

Personally, I wish more PC manufacturers would get a clue and adopt some of the space saving features of laptops and produce smaller desktop models. In most cases, people don't need the environmentally questionable batteries in laptops, they just want something that isn't heavy and awkward.

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[CrazyTalk]

Not here (or any company that I know of currently). It's all about the bottom line in the corporate world, especially for items like computers which are viewed as office supplies. Desktops are still cheaper than laptops, so unless your job requires you to travel a substantial portion of the time, yer stuck with an inexpensive desktop. Same reason we don't have LCD monitors - the company doesn't want to spend the extra $$$ just because they look nice.

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention I haven't seen many dual processor laptop workstations.

laptops are great, they do their work well... but when you need horsepower you're just not going to approach a desktop with one. For me, it's a laptop for all my work that can be done with one, and a desktop for the horsepower.

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[dago]

In most (big enough) companies, desktop pc are standardized and administrated as a bunch of them. You can usually walk to any desk and get your dekstop and files there. No need to move them.

Smaller Form Factor : did you saw SFF pc from dell/compaq (for the OEM) ? ever heard about shutlle barebones (for the DIY) ?

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[c0ol]

i dont get it, all the LCD screens ive seen are terrible compared to a good CRT.

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[silas_moeckel]

Corps that dont look into LCD's generaly are being very near sighted. LCD's TCO's are supposed to be lower that CRT's due to reduced power use and thus heat generation. I used to keep pizza warm on top of a pair of 19's thats a LOT of heat to AC in the summer. More often this is a sign of it's not my budget so I dont care syndrome.

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[Mal-2]

You mean like this "desknote"?

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/gooddealpc-store/des kn ote.html

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[WuphonsReach]

Hmmmm, heat generation savings in the summer... that's an angle I hadn't thought of.

Last time I ran the numbers for a 17" CRT vs 17" LCD, cost savings was in the vicinity of US$50 to US$75 per year (2000 hours of use per year). It wasn't enough to justify buying a LCD monitor solely based on power-savings ROI.

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[ShadowDrake]

>Personally, I wish more PC manufacturers would get >a clue and adopt some of the space saving features >of laptops and produce smaller desktop models. In >most cases, people don't need the environmentally >questionable batteries in laptops, they just want >something that isn't heavy and awkward.

The ECS Desknote is exactly what you want. It's a battery-free laptop that's often dead-cheap and sold customized by small shops.

I believe they even introduced a display-free model.

Aside: I don't see the big appeal. A slightly bigger case means you don't have to compromise on cooling and expandability, and often means much better value for money (fast 3.5" hard discs instead of 2.5", normal easily-replacable IDE devices, a PCI slot or two). Plus, laptop keyboards and pointing apparatuses suck.

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate LCD displays. They just can't compare to a good CRT...

Re:LCDs outselling CRTs?

[silas_moeckel]

Remember apples to apples it's a 17" LCD vs s 19" CRT as one is usable dimention and CRT's are tube size with viewable be smaller. A 15" LCD would be the comparable size. On the assumption that your cooling half the year (this varies a LOT with your climate an office in Flordia or New Orleans probably cools all year) these savings can add up. I have done offices in NYC were there are literly BTU generation limits in the lease as the ammount of BTU's these building were designed to handle per square foot realy cant be easily upgraded. The same goes for power.

Now to your colculations I'm showing a 17" CRT on pricewatch at $69 and a 17" LCD at $332 at your minimum power savings numbers thats a bit over 5 years for break even. If you go with my sizing numbers it's 219 for the LCD making the payoff in an even 3 years your worst case not counting AC thats well within the life expactancy of the Monitor.

DOLLARS. 500 million DOLLARS.

[stile]

This one had me boggling for a second. 500 million computers sold in the US? Maybe it means in the world...

CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

Why anyone would ever bother with a CRT again is beyond me, it's just insanity. For a slight increase in price you have a massive boost in clarity, stunning resolutions, and brilliant bright displays. Lower energy use, less desk space and less room heating in the middle of summer than a CRT.

Amazing how people will hold onto the old & known, despite better options being available

Re:CRTs still being made

[xTown]

I haven't seen an LCD yet that was really good for certain types of games, like driving games and shooters. For work, yeah, I'd rather have an LCD. For games...unless there's something out there that won't ghost at all, I'll stick with the CRT.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference between $100 and $300 for the same screen size is a little more than "a little."

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

Find me a single artist who uses a flat panel display.

Find me an LCD for under $150.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Tha_Big_Guy23]

Amazing how people will hold onto the old & known, despite better options being available

Well, not too amazing. We've run into some issues with the people at my company. One of our receptionists for example: She acquired a LCD monitor to fit on the new receptionist desk that was purchased for her. The reasononing behind the LCD purchase was due to space reasons. ie. there wasn't enough room on the desk for a CRT. In any case, we put the display in, and within minutes she was complaining because she couldn't read it. The standard, nice and crisp, 1024x768 resolution on the monitor was too small for her to read. Our solution. Bump the resolution back to 800x600. On an LCD display this creates problems as the letters get all blocky, and it becomes rather difficult to read. The thing is, since the display looked like crap at 800x600, she complained about it more than being unable to read it. In the end, we had no choice but to leave it at 800x600 so she could at least see the words. I think that's one of the major reasons people stick with CRT's. Despite the resolution on a CRT, all the text is nice and clear.

This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Re:CRTs still being made

[EvanED]

I bought a CRT about 9 months ago, but even by today's standards of LCDs, that "slight increase in price" would be about $700. Taday's lowest price of a LCD that does 1600x1200 res: about $950 off pricewatch. My monitor when I bought it: $225. This is not just a "slight difference".

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

you obviously dont game. brightness, range of resolution, and refresh rates of crts can't be touched by lcd's right now.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Unoriginal Nick]

Two words: digital photography. An LCD simply can't match the true color representation a good CRT can give, which is essential if you're going to do any serious photo work on a PC.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Snags]

Because if you want lots of resolution (like 1600x1200), you need a *BIG* display like 18" (viewable) that costs an insane amount in LCD form. I got such a display refurbished for $200, and the clarity and resolution are great. It would cost more than 3x that to get an LCD.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

For a slight increase in price you have a massive boost in clarity, stunning resolutions, and brilliant bright displays

Umm...show me an LCD that does 1600*1200*32bit at anything above 72hertz for a slight increase in price. I do animation ... and for cost effectiveness, CRT is still better than LCD (speaking in terms of price/performance).

Re:CRTs still being made

[afidel]

Contrast, lack of motion blur, color correctness, resolution. LCD's lack in all of these areas VS CRT's.

Re:CRTs still being made

[cpotoso]

Some people never seem to understand the setting "FONT SIZE"???? Just run the damn lcd in its native resolution and increase the default font sizes!!!!!!!

Re:CRTs still being made

[Martigan80]

Excuse me here but at least in America LCD prices might be cheap but in the rest of the world they are still expensive. Agreed that saving in desk space, heat, and eye strain can not be ignored, but with a price difference if around $200 one can yet forgo the LCD option.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I'm no photographer but I can't see any difference in colour between my samsung 17" LCD and any good CRT. I suspect you need to look at some newer LCDs instead of older passive matrix ones.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Mononoke]

Just run the damn lcd in its native resolution and increase the default font sizes!!!!!!!

How does this help when doing word processing? Do you really want 1/2" tall text out of your printer?

Re:CRTs still being made

[VoiceOfRaisin]

stunning resolution*S*?

sorry charly. stunning resolution (singular)
ive seen plenty of lcds, and when they dont use the 1:1 pixel ratio of the screen they look like CRAP.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Lumpy]

For a slight increase in price you have a massive boost in clarity, stunning resolutions, and brilliant bright displays

what drugs are you on because I wans something that phycelidelic...

I have a 21 inch Viewsonic monitor on my desk... It cost me $299.00 2 years ago... now they are cheaper.

a 21 inch LCD costs $1139.99 for an El-cheapo.. RIGHT NOW... I just checked..

yeah.. I see how that is a slight difference in price...

could you do us a favor... pull your bottom lip over your head and swallow.

thanks :-)

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats why wordprocessors have zoom

on any size monitor (LCD or CRT) 12 point text viewed at page-fit-to-screen comes out exactly the same size whether in 800x600, 1024x768 or 2048x1600.

It's just smoother on the higher resolutions.

Re:CRTs still being made

[realdpk]

Find me a single artist (woo hoo) who uses a CRT under $150 for quality reasons.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought four used corporate 17" CRTs for $40 each (nice, bright, sharp), for my home use. I gave one away, I'm using two, and I keep one in a closet as a backup.

Total cost: $160 for 4 monitors.

Re:CRTs still being made

[SunPin]

Are you being a troll? It has no effect on word processing at all. Increase all the system fonts all you want. Run office and increase the default view size. You don't need to be a geek to figure that out.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I'm no photographer

Exactly. You're not a photographer, or a graphic artist or a graphic designer. If you were one of those people you would see a difference. So as it stands, shut up.

Re:CRTs still being made

[pebs]

There is generally a zoom feature in word processors so this should be an issue anyways. Increasing the font size does not affect your word processor's document fonts.

Re:CRTs still being made

[NanoGator]

"Why anyone would ever bother with a CRT again is beyond me"

LCD's don't beat CRTs at every aspect. I use my laptop for webbrowsing and my CRT for gaming. The CRT udpates faster, can be viewed at any angle, and it natively supports a variety of resolutions. (running a 640 by 480 game on a 1600 by 1200 LCD sucks.)

The LCD on my laptop has better color, much clearer image, and I can get closer to it. I've chosen it to do my web surfing and for creating artwork.

There are plenty of reasons to swing either way. Personally, I think OLED is going to kill CRTs for good.

Re:CRTs still being made

[NanoGator]

"Find me a single artist who uses a flat panel display."

Me.

"Find me an LCD for under $150."

Us artists don't shop the bargain bins for our equipment. We may be 'starving' but we happily go into debt to avoid using inferior tools, especially when they affect the output.

Re:CRTs still being made

[heli0]

If you click "advanced" under display properties you can change the DPI that Windows uses, changing the size of the desktop without switching the resolution.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Ho-Lee-Chow]

>> Just run the damn lcd in its native resolution
>> and increase the default font sizes!!!!!!!

> How does this help when doing word processing?
> Do you really want 1/2" tall text out of your
> printer?

Ahem. When he said "increase the default font sizes", he meant increase the default SCREEN FONT SIZES in your operating system. In Windows:

1) Right-click on the desktop
2) Click on "Properties"
3) Click on the "Settings" tab
4) Click "Advanced"
5) Under the General tab, there is a "Font Size" setting. You can select "Small Fonts" (96 dots per inch), "Large Fonts" (120 dpi), or "Other" (whatever you want).

You'll notice that when you select "Other", Windows shows an example of how 10 point Arial text will be displayed on your screen with the modified settings. By dragging the ruler, you can increase or decrease the displayed size of 10-pt Arial text.

That's right, you can change the onscreen size of your text (measured in dots per inch) without affecting the printed size of your text (measured in points). I hope that clears everything up. Next time, don't jump to rash conclusions.

BTW, I can see the benefits of LCDs, but I don't see how LCD fanboys can proclaim "CRT is inferior". Sure, LCD is superior if you don't mind being locked into one resolution, motion blur, etc. For business and word processing use, I'm sure LCD is just fine. For gaming, graphic design, movie playback, I would go with a CRT.

Re:CRTs still being made

[NanoGator]

"Two words: digital photography. An LCD simply can't match the true color representation a good CRT can give, which is essential if you're going to do any serious photo work on a PC. "

I do 'serious' photo and texture work on my laptop. It reproduces color quite well.

An LCD can do it. However, it would only be fair to remind you that I paid extra to get a really good display. If you buy a crap LCD (or a crap CRT) the color's going to suck.

I'm not attacking the details so much as I'm attacking the generalization.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Mistah Blue]

I've got a Viewsonic PF795 (their best 19" when I got it in the fall of 2000). I now have a work provided Latitude C840 with Ultrasharp UXGA display. The CRT is noticeably less sharp. I plan on getting a Dell 20" Ultrasharp display in the next year or so (probably along with a new system). I like LCD's, and look forward to having one on my desktop. There is also a possiblity I would go with a laptop for my home system too.

Re:CRTs still being made

[paradesign]

me.

i use this one its like drawing on paper. resolution sucks, but there is no other option.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Sanction]

But when you go to 19', the difference is a lot smaller. There is always a price break point somewhere, you just buy on the friendly side of the curve. Also, I know _very_ few people with a 21' CRT, they take up such absurd amounts of desk space and generate enough heat to raise my office temp almost 5 degrees. Most stick with 19' in either case, where an LCD can be a much better deal, especially when they easily rotate for Portrait mode :)

Re:CRTs still being made

[Mistah Blue]

I don't have any problem with MOHAA on my C840. It looks just great on the LCD. I run it at 800x600. I think this is a preference based issue: some people prefer CRT's, while others prefer LCD's (I belong in the LCD camp now that I've seen what a great LCD display looks like).

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

My NEC 1760NX works really good for shooters and driving games, only place it isn't the best for are dark games, you get a "shimmer" in the black spaces from the back-light, its distracting but other than that it works fine for all games i've thrown at it...

Re:CRTs still being made

[Chrysophrase]

Totally agree on this one. And if I may add: the day that AGFA, Creo, Heidelberg or any other serious prepress & print company showcases a LCD monitor for softproofing, that's the day CRT is officialy dead.

But since they don't ...

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

everybody's mentioned good reasons, I have another...two words:
viewing angle
lcd is getting a lot better, but still nowhere near crt.

Re:CRTs still being made

[ewhac]

Nope, sorry, must disagree.

Despite incredible improvements over the last decade, LCDs still smear. (Yes, they do. It's a much briefer smear, but it's there.) This makes them unacceptable for high-framerate games.

Even the best LCD panels still have a more limited viewing angle than CRTs.

You can't "dial-a-resolution" on an LCD panel. Basically, your display is crisp at only one resolution. Anything else, and the filtering makes the entire display fuzzy (or worse, blocky). CRTs, on the other hand, tend to remain crisp right up to their bandwidth limit (given a decent cable).

Also, as a previous poster pointed out, LCD color purity isn't anywhere near the level of CRTs. In fact, last I checked, no one actually knows what the gamma curve of an LCD panel actually is.

And finally, the price of LCD panels remains prohibitive for "interesting" panel sizes (that is, 19" diagonal or larger). I have no doubt prices will continue to fall, but the previous shortcomings will remain.

Schwab

Re:CRTs still being made

[Jucius Maximus]

"Why anyone would ever bother with a CRT again is beyond me, it's just insanity. For a slight increase in price you have a massive boost in clarity, stunning resolutions, and brilliant bright displays. Lower energy use, less desk space and less room heating in the middle of summer than a CRT."

Yeah, but that LCD screen which is designed to run at 1280x1024 will do 1024x768 badly. And if your computer is not powerful enough to run the latest 3D game at 1280x1024, you'll have to choose between a badly scaled image at a resolution non-native to the LCD or a picture perefct slide show.

Also, some people WANT big hot CRT monitors. I mean, some colleges have the dorm thermostats set far too low ;-)

Re:CRTs still being made

[Chrysophrase]

Me.

I work on this 20" cinema display mainly to do page layout, gives a nice and crisp result at 1680 x 1050 resolution and a I also use19" Lacie Electron blue for colour correction and Photoshop work.

And if I may add: nothing comes close, in terms of picture quality, to the Lacie.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people never seem to understand the setting "FONT SIZE"????

First off, that's not a question, let alone something that deserves FOUR question marks. I won't even go into your misguided use of exclamation marks.

Secondly, I can only assume you've never tried to use windows with different font settings. A lot of those 'people who don't seem to understand the font size setting' are the application developers. Every time I try changing default font settings on Win32, I find reams of stupid apps that have text cut off on the right and bottom sides. And not just poxy shareware tools either.

Re:CRTs still being made

[lostchicken]

There's another group of people who use imaging, and are perhaps more picky about quality than artists.

Radiologists. And they almost all use LCDs. Even in hospitals, when money is no object (or they have budgets that would make you and I quiver in fear).

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

you are a dumbass.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

why do you need 72hertz? LCDs are digital, there is no refreshing the screen every time since there is no electron gun. Therefore, there is no blinking and your eyes feel good, and a camera can film it. LCD to a CRT is like a picture on a sheet of paper to a sheet of paper with a bouncing dot.

Re:CRTs still being made

[lactose99]

When I can buy a 19/21" LCD that doesn't completely blur motion at 30+ FPS and costs $300, then I'll consider it. Until that time its not ideal by any stretch of the imagination (at least for my needs).

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

um no, sorry. Active Matrix screens are backlit, remember? and what is that backlight? A tiny florescent tube. Have you ever looked at a floresecent lightsource through a spectrometer? Try it sometime, its not even close to being blackbody radiation at 6000K. Granted CRT's aren't perfect either, but they're far, far better, and they don't have the massive green spectral line that messes up all the colors. Photographic work requires a CRT. Now, LCD's might work if they used white LED's as a backlight, maybe, but I've never looked at white LED light through a spectrometer.

Re:CRTs still being made

[localghost]

I'll use an LCD when you pry my CRT from my cold, dead hands. First, as it's been said, the increase in price is not slight. Second, there is no increase in clarity. A good CRT will give you just as sharp a picture as a good LCD. stunning resolutions...I don't know what the hell you mean by that. Care to explain? CRTs support much higher resolutions than LCDs, not to mention the picture on LCDs go to shit when you change it to anything other than the optimal resolution. CRTs are just as bright, or brighter, than LCDs, I don't pay for my electricity, I can spare the desk space, and I have an air conditioner. And when my computer does something good, I can hug the CRT. Try doing that on one of your anorexic LCDs.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Ho-Lee-Chow]

Cool. I guess it *is* a preference thing. But as long as I know certain issues exist (lack of proper support for multiple resolutions, motion blur, and limited viewing angle) I won't be able to say "LCD ownz CRT". (Of course, CRT displays have their own issues: bulk, weight, greater power consumption, etc.) I think they have different things to offer for different people.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Mal-2]

I would like to know where I can obtain one of these mystical 21' CRTs... and more importantly, where I can keep something so large. I could probably get it into an open 26' trailer, but then how do I get it into the house?

Or do I just live inside it?

Re:CRTs still being made

[Sanction]

I think they let you live in it for free if you keep the screen clean ;)

Re:CRTs still being made

[EvanED]

Ah, but radiologists aren't as concerned with absolute color correction as they are with resolution I would bet... the top resolution monitors are LCDs. Artists however are more concerned with the color than ultra-high resolution.

Re:CRTs still being made

[spike hay]

Why anyone would ever bother with a CRT again is beyond me, it's just insanity. For a slight increase in price you have a massive boost in clarity, stunning resolutions, and brilliant bright displays. Lower energy use, less desk space and less room heating in the middle of summer than a CRT.


Stunning resolutions? The most I see with 19" LCDs (uber expensive) most of the time is 1280x1024. My 19" CRT can push 2048x1536. And I bought it a year ago for $200. Most commercial LCDs have piss poor resoluion compared to CRTs, not to mention the whole problem with only looking good under their native resolution. Also, CRTs have better clarity and most definitely better color than CRTs. And the contrast is loads better than LCDs, which top out at about 500:1. Also, CRTs are generally brighter and easier to look at, as they are emissive displays, rather than backlit like LCDs.

I'm holding off until we have good, cheap OLEDs before I get rid of my blessed Sylvania.

Re:CRTs still being made

[EvanED]

Most of those issues aren't as big as you seem to think on today's monitors. Take a walk around Circuit City or Best Buy or something and take a look. Of course, I run at 1600x1200 on a 19" monitor so LCDs of that caliber are really expensive, so I'm on a CRT.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Billly Gates]

Slightly offtopic here but how is the quality on your ViewSonic?

I am looking at buying a new 21 inch crt soon and Viewsonics are cheap but had bad ratings in the past. Does it flicker or ghost? I prefer a Sony but they are expensive.

Re:CRTs still being made

[EvanED]

>>But when you go to 19', the difference is a lot smaller.

Not if you want 1600x1200 resolution. Low price on a "LCD 1600x1200" search (first actual monitor) on pricewatch? $800. First of a company i've heard of before? $910. My monitor when I got it a few months back? $250. Sure, $550-$650 is a lot smaller than $1000 ($1326-$360, the low prices for 21" LCD and CRTs that do 1600 res.), but the difference is still well over twice the price.

And FYI, after working with 1600x1200 resoltion, I ain't never working with less on my computer again, even if LCDs that do less are free. Well, then I might make a dual monitor setup. But other than than, no 1600 for me...

Re:CRTs still being made

[DeadScreenSky]

How well does it present black?

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

What's so wrong with a little bit of ghosting? You barely notice in fast-paced games. Ghosting isn't even nearly as bad as people say on the new crop of LCDs. Unless you're gonna use that as your excuse for having your ass handed to you.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

You must not do any serious photo work on your CRT because then you'd know that you have to colour calibrate your display, regardless of whether it's a CRT or LCD, regardless of price. Even semi-serious LCDs come with basic calibration accessories and utilities, and it takes all of 5 minutes to do it.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, and BTW, even the very best CRTs can't match the true colour of everything. Their colour range is only so large. So you're clearly talking out of your ass, as no computer display shows the 'true' colour, only an approximation. And like I said, both CRTs and LCDs have to be calibrated for any serious colour print work.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

> lack of proper support for multiple resolutions
I don't think this will ever change. It isn't really a problem. the native resloution of the panel is the optimal one. If you know what an LCD is and how it works, you'd understand better why anything but the optimal res will not look good.

> motion blur
LCDs these days are coming out with 16ms to 20ms pixel response time, this is fine for movies and fast action games. Nearly down to 0ms. Even 25ms is fine for movies etc, try it and see.

> limited viewing angle
This is wrong. Any good LCD will have a 160deg viewing angle. (some advertised as 170deg, ie apple's). this is as good as it gets, why would you need any more than this, you are nearly 180deg with the damn thing, you can't see anything. 160 deg is perfect.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Ho-Lee-Chow]

If you know what an LCD is and how it works, you'd understand better why anything but the optimal res will not look good.

I understand why anything other than the optimal resolution will not look good. However, what if I want to play older games, emulated games, or certain 2D games that will not run at the optimal resolution? My point is, as long as I can think of an application that works better on a CRT than an LCD, then I still have a use for CRTs. Are we supposed to just give up the idea of having multiple resolutions forever?

> motion blur
LCDs these days are coming out with 16ms to 20ms pixel response time, this is fine for movies and fast action games. Nearly down to 0ms. Even 25ms is fine for movies etc, try it and see.

> limited viewing angle
This is wrong. Any good LCD will have a 160deg viewing angle. (some advertised as 170deg, ie apple's). this is as good as it gets, why would you need any more than this, you are nearly 180deg with the damn thing, you can't see anything. 160 deg is perfect

Okay, point taken. Thanks.

Re:CRTs still being made

[Anonymous Coward]

16 ms is just barely short enough for 60 FPS (unless it's a cold day). Besides, there are already video cards faster than that on the market.

this may just be a phase.

[2MuchC0ffeeMan]

weren't computer sales down 6 months ago?

corporations don't have the money to upgrade anymore, that's a big bulk of a downcline in desktop sales...

and, universities would rather use laptops rather than desktops becuase of space and power requirements.

Re:this may just be a phase.

[Uart]

Space requirements indeed. I had to buy a laptop when I moved into the quad at Villanova, the desks in that dorm honestly couldn't fit a CRT iMac. Buying a laptop was my only option.

I like the mobility of the laptop (and I really do love my Powerbook) but there is something about the desktop formfactor that just appeals to me. For one, it doesn't have a battery that needs to be charged/conditioned/whatever.

Off-Topic Bit: The Powerbook would be a hell of a lot more "mobile" if it had two mouse buttons. I hate having to carry around a real mouse with me.

It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[chia_monkey]

I read this yesterday and thought "whoah! More laptops than desktops!" but after reading the article I became aware that the money brought in from laptop sales was more than the money brought in from desktops. Considering the average laptop costs twice as much as the average desktop, you've still got roughly a 2-1 ratio of desktop units sold over laptops.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it seems even more skewed than that, if I interpret it correctly:

"LAPTOPS ACCOUNTED for more than 54 percent of the nearly $500 million in retail computer sales in May, the Port Washington, N.Y., company said Tuesday. That compares with January 2000, when laptops represented less than 25 percent of sales volume, NPD said"

They are comparing today's sales revenues (i.e. dollar figures, with laptops way more expensive) to yesterday's sales volumes (i.e. numbers shipped, for which desktops would be heavily favoured)

Look like some fine marketing work!

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[Micro$will]

Not to mention the fact that there's almost no upgrades you can do, besides maybe memory and the hard drive. Need a new computer? Gotta buy a whole new one! My old Thinkpad is nice, but for home use I'll stick to my desktop. MUCH cheaper that way.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[st0rmshad0w]

So which is it? Crappy journalism or skewed statistics? Who can tell anymore.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[NanoGator]

" Considering the average laptop costs twice as much as the average desktop, you've still got roughly a 2-1 ratio of desktop units sold over laptops. "

Perhaps. However, laptops have overcome many of the hurdles that used to hold them back. LCDs are good enough that they update quickly with good color. They come with 3D cards now, allowing for game play plus 3D art generation. They have large hard drives and can come with generous amounts of RAM. Plus, they all come together in one neat little package that requires no hookup, plus it can be folded up and go places.

Yes, laptops cost more, but people want more out of their computers. So today the 2-1 ratio will probably hold out, there is no guarantee it'll always be like that. I don't think it'll be too long before everybody is choosing laptops over desktops. Sooner or later, portability is more interesting than a few hundred megahertz.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[timeOday]

I don't think it'll be too long before everybody is choosing laptops over desktops. Sooner or later, portability is more interesting than a few hundred megahertz.

I don't know how it is other places, but where I work laptops are really taking over, for convenience and quiet. Sometimes you need to go work with somebody in a lab. Or during a meeting you want to take notes (or look like you're taking notes while actually getting work done). And then obviously there's travel. And work from home. The price difference between laptops and desktops is small compared to the expense of the employee who runs that computer. And the performance gap is both unimportant and quite small.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[Jucius Maximus]

"Not to mention the fact that there's almost no upgrades you can do, besides maybe memory and the hard drive. Need a new computer? Gotta buy a whole new one! My old Thinkpad is nice, but for home use I'll stick to my desktop. MUCH cheaper that way."

Yeah, but's it's much easier to sell and old and crappy laptop than it is an old and crappy desktop. When I had this old 486 laptop to sell, I posted a little low profile one line ad in the university newspaper and I got maybe 15 enquiries about it in 1 week. People wanted it to carry around for powerpoint presentations and to use for basic word processing.

Sure, it's cheaper to keep upgrading the PC but it's easier to sell the old laptop so you can use the money to get a better one. In the end, I'd say it all balances out.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[Eccles]

Not to mention the fact that there's almost no upgrades you can do, besides maybe memory and the hard drive.

But for the majority of people out there, that's as much or more than they'll ever upgrade. Joe Sixpack isn't too enthusiastic about swapping out motherboards. And with typical machines nowadays, what do you need to upgrade? The CPU is fast enough for 98% of us, hard drives can be added via USB/Firewire, the laptops come with CD/DVD combo drives; other than the video card, there's not much really that most people care about upgrading. And the old machine can become a hand-me-down, anyway.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[jez9999]

I can think of several reasons why I haven't bought a laptop, and probably won't for a long while.

Ergonomics: Laptop keyboards *suck*. Also, bring your own mouse to plugin, because laptop 'touch mice' are a joke too.

Sound: Laptop speakers just ain't gonna reproduce sound as well as seperate speakers. You could plugin headphones, of course, or speakers, but then you might as well just use a desktop PC as they're not easily portable.

Upgrades: What upgrades? You can't upgrade a laptop like you can a PC. Buy a laptop, and live with its specs. When you need a new part, it's time to buy a new laptop, reinstall your OS and/or configure it for use with totally new hardware.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[Micro$will]

But close a laptop while accidentally leaving a pen on the keyboard, or spill some soda on it and you'll be $1500 poorer. I spilled a big cup of coffee on my desktop keyboard a couple months ago. For $10 I had a new keyboard and was ready to go. Recently, some kid at my school rested his laptop bag in puddle outside and found out the hard way what water does to a laptop's motherboard and hard drive.

How does this relate to Joe Sixpack? Well, compare a short trip to the computer store vs a 2 week wait from IBM/Dell/Compaq and big fat bill.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[WuphonsReach]

At work, I buy a new laptop every 2 years, and hand off my old one to someone else to use for another 2-3 years. They're still 2x-3x as expensive as buying an equivalent desktop system though (corp desktops cost around US$1200, my laptop costs US$3000).

Usually, what does a system in for us is lack of memory - which causes more swapping to the HD. That shortens lifespan of the HD, plus the HD is slower then desktop systems so it's a double-whammy. Currently, the minimum amount of memory that we will purchase a system with is 512Mb. Come this fall, that minimum requirement will probably be 1Gb RAM. (Right now, with 13 browser windows, MSOutlookXP, WinXP Pro, and half a dozen other apps open, I'm using 390Mb.)

We go around the office once a year and look for any systems that are running less then the average amount of RAM. Usually, dropping another 128Mb or 256Mb into those systems can add as much as 24 months to a lifecycle.

I still wouldn't give up my laptop for anything (used to travel up to NYC once a month) and if I had to buy out of pocket I probably would. I have a seperate game system at home for hard-core gaming. That gets me the best of both worlds, something portable and something powerful.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[lucifuge31337]

Not to mention the fact that there's almost no upgrades you can do, besides maybe memory and the hard drive. Need a new computer? Gotta buy a whole new one!

Hey...this thread is about laptops, not Macs. Oh...nevermind.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[timeOday]

Ergonomics: Laptop keyboards *suck*. Also, bring your own mouse to plugin, because laptop 'touch mice' are a joke too.

I really think that's just a matter of habit. I have a touchpad on one laptop, an eraser-head on another, a mouse on one PC and a trackball on the other, I use each one each day and honestly I don't care one way or the other.

Sound: Laptop speakers just ain't gonna reproduce sound as well as seperate speakers. You could plugin headphones, of course, or speakers, but then you might as well just use a desktop PC as they're not easily portable.

Too true... in fact I recently got a very nice pair of headphones, and even with headphones the audio on all 3 laptops I tried was awful! I have to wonder if it's a matter of not being grounded properly? But I ended up buying a Sony CD MP3 walkman to fix that problem and it sounds good, so maybe it isn't grounding after all...

Upgrades: What upgrades? You can't upgrade a laptop like you can a PC. Buy a laptop, and live with its specs.

I agree that's terrible for home use but for work maybe less so. My company seems to think it's cheaper to buy new ones than have the contractors spend time working the bugs out of various upgrades. You know what I mean... sometimes that new video card causes random lockups and takes 3 days to iron out, while a new Dell is better than the old computer across the board and almost always "just works."

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[innocent_white_lamb]

Laptop keyboards *suck*. Also, bring your own mouse to plugin, because laptop 'touch mice' are a joke too.

I'll second that! I have Microsoft Natural keyboards on all of the computers that I use regularly and can barely type on a regular "straight" keyboard any more. But I can type for far longer periods on these split keyboards than I ever could on the old straight ones.

I've never seen a laptop with a split keyboard on it. Does such a thing even exist?

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[shut_up_man]

I think there are places for desktops and laptops, but it's hard to nail down definite comparisons, as each user's requirements and personal experience is so different.

Mobility
Laptops win this easily, as they're designed to, but it's interesting to see human self-deception at work here. I've known plenty of students, IT professionals and other workers who tout mobility as a carved-in-stone essential requirement, then leave their expensive new laptop on a desk for the rest of its operational life. Do you really need a portable office, or could you get by with a USB pendrive? Mobility is awesome, but quite often, it's just an expensive illusion.

Basic Performance
The stagnation of basic performance requirements is (IMHO) the crucial reason for laptops rising in popularity. Any modern budget laptop will handle web browsing, email, office apps and basic games easily, making them a completely viable option for most users. They realise they don't need a massively powerful new desktop machine, so they spend their money on a laptop, with the benefits (whether they use them or not) of portability.

High Performance
Laptops really can't compete with desktops here, with their power-saving components and lack of expandibility. Parts such as CPUs and video cards lag behind desktop versions, steering "I need all the power money can buy" users quickly towards desktops. The difference between laptop and desktop hard drives is particularly large, with standard desktop drives (ATA100, 7200rpm) being about 2-3 times faster than laptop drives (ATA5, 4200rpm). For intensive applications like video editing, this makes using a laptop a fairly painful experience, and you simply can't buy a laptop drive that's any faster.

Aesthetics
Since a user's basic computing needs are easily met by any modern machine (portable or otherwise), the issue of aesthetics comes into play, including aspects such as size, neatness and "wow factor". Laptops have a definite edge here, particualarly with executive-types caught up in the reverse-wang-size race ("mine's smaller than yours").

Price
There's no doubt that laptops are far, far more expensive than similarly-specced desktop machines. If money is a factor (and it always is, really) then a desktop gives the best bang for the buck. Lack of mobility can often be solved with determination, organization and creativity. But, in reality, it's a highly subjective, personal choice whether mobility and coolness is worth the premium.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[bluGill]

You get used to the keyboard on laptops. Don't forget that you can plug one in at your desk. I know of some companies that standerdised on laptops, with a fullsize keyboard, mouse, and monitor on every desk. For support personel that have to travel once in a while it is a good solution. It isn't a big deal to plug and unplug 4 cables every day. (Power, monitor, keyboard, and mouse. The latter can be combined today into a usb hub)

Sound is nice, but hardly required on a buisness laptop. At least for most buisness purposes sound is better left off. For personal use (games, mp3), that is a different story. I know people who purchased high priced PCMCIA sound cards for their laptop. For most of us that is overkill. Again, it isn't that big a deal to add one more cable to the list of those to plug in every morning once you have a routine. If you even need sound.

What upgrades? I rarely upgrade my desktop computer. With USB, and firewire most upgrades are easy, you buy an external drive, and when you travel you choose what you need to take with you. Or you install wireless (802.11) and connect to a server. Obviously that doesn't cover everything (video), but it covers most of what you need.

Mind you I'm not saying a laptop is perfect for everyone. They are a nice solution to several real problems. I have a perfectly good desktop myself, so I'm thinking about a laptop for the times when I don't want to be at my desk. I can use the latop in my backyard, on the couch, at my parents house, and so on.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[Anonymous Coward]

Sound- Actually, sound is BETTER on my laptop than most PC's, simply because its totally silent when listening to music. The noise from 3-10 fans on a desktop make it impossible to do any serious listening.

You connect speakers only when you're stationary, and headphones when you're on the go. I don't see the big deal, it gives you the flexibility to use your laptop away from your desk AND the ability to replace your desktop.

And the soundcard on a laptop can be as good as the best desktop cards, a few laptops use AD soundmax, which is on par with SB Audigy/TBSC for sound quality, and you can always add a SB extigy or M-audio sonica.

And finally, some laptops like Compaq's JBL pro speakers, or Toshiba and Sony laptops with "subwoofers" have built-in speakers that are on par with your average computer geek's desktop speakers.

Ergonomics-A desktop replacement will have full sized keys, and a good tactile feel since they have actuators instead of the mushy rubber pads used on today's desktop keyboards (old classics like the IBM model M used metal actuators) The only problem is the smaller travel of the keys, for some its a huge drawback, for others its no big deal. Try using a good laptop keyboard, esp IBM notebooks; while most consumer keyboards do *suck*, its a huge generalization.

And plugging in a mouse is no big deal, it costs $10 and shouldn't play a major role when you're deciding between $2000 + computers.

Upgrades- on a dell 8000 series laptop, you can upgrade the video card, the hard drive, the memory, the CPU, the optical drive, hook up any external DVI/vga/composite monitor, and expand it with any number of usb2/firewire/cardbus peripherals. It's also possible to upgrade the entire motherboard since they usually use the same case for 2 generations, and the LCD panel can also be changed. The only difference is you have to look for parts dealers or ebay to get the upgrades, instead of retail stores. Most users only need to upgrade the hard drive and ram, and those are every bit as easy to do as on a desktop.

In the end, the only thing you should look as is whether you need mobility. Wireless lan, being able to get work done/play games/watch movies on the go is a huge plus for me, as is the ability to work anywhere instead of being forced to sit at the desk. But if you don't need any of that, then it would be stupid to pay the premium for a laptop.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[jez9999]

Oh god no. If there's one thing worse than laptop keyboard, it's 'natural' keyboards. About as natural as having a large spike shoved up your ass. I think i'll stick with my nice standard keyboard. My complaint about laptop keyboards is that the keys are too big (except for the numbers, they always seem to be too small), and there's not enough travel in the keys. They need to be made deeper.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[briareus]

I'd say it's dumb not to buy onsite service with a laptop and Complete Care if it's a Dell. The whole point of having a laptop is to be able to carry it around. At least make sure you have coverage for it because something will happen.

Re:It's a misleading title...sales $ vs. units

[briareus]

Not to mention the fact that there's almost no upgrades you can do, besides maybe memory and the hard drive. Need a new computer? Gotta buy a whole new one!

Do your homework next time. The video card, processor, optical drives on the Dell Latitude C8XX/Inspiron 8XXX families can be upgraded -- not to mention the miniPCI slot. Add a C/Dock and you have limited PCI upgradability when docked (2 PCI slots)

However, you are correct in that it is much cheaper to stick with a desktop alternative, but that's a given.

Not surprising

[geek]

People want mobility with out sacrificing performace. Todays laptops seem to do that nicely, especially Apple's power books. I never liked palm pilots but laptops are quite nice on the average. I just wish heat wasn't such an issue. I used to have an Acer laptop 5-6 year ago and it left burns on my lap after an hour or so of use.

Re:Not surprising

[EnsignExtra]

Still desktops generally have faster HDD speeds. I've seen a notebook with a 5400rpm drive, but it's still slower than desktop drives. On the subject of heat, I worked for a large computer manufacturer and we were stricly enjoined from calling them "laptops" for that very reason! They are mobile computers or notebook computers.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

People want mobility with out sacrificing performace.

Yes I do... and I cent get it out of any laptop on this planet.

Give me a 10,000rpm U160 scsi drive... give me dual processors... and give me a damn good video card.

Oh wait it can't be done. my old desktop from 3 years ago will kick the living crap out of any laptop you can buy today... in performance, in feel of snappy OS/boot/whatever in every possible way.

I get a kick out of people showing me their fly noew P4 2.2ghz or the 3.1ghz .. and a P-III desktop makes it look like slow junk...

until they make laptops that are true workstations... they are just toys for the mobile wannabe's.

Re:Not surprising

[Chet Vav Hey]

Amen. My Toshiba POS makes noises like Alex Lifeson's solo on "Freewill" after about half an hour.

Makes a fantastic heating pad, though.

Re:Not surprising

[shut_up_man]

Dude... when your flesh starts to burn, you should really stop doing it.

just a theory...

[thoolihan]

Is this a sign that 'joe user' starting to realize that software is no longer requiring upgrades every 6 months? (ease of Desktop ugrade is no longer a driving factor)...

-t

Re:just a theory...

[EpsCylonB]

Is this a sign that 'joe user' starting to realize that software is no longer requiring upgrades every 6 months? (ease of Desktop ugrade is no longer a driving factor)...

This is such an ignorant generalization. Firstly if you are a gamer then you still need to upgrade every 6 months to keep up with the jones's (I get away with upgrading evey two years tho).

Secondly, if this a thinly veiled attack at M$ bloat then it doesn't make sense, when was windows xp released ?, when will the next windows be released ?, and why are ppl are only now realising they do or don't need to upgrade ?.

Basically I don't think that easy upgrade was ever an important for consumers. Generally people have bought computers when they need them, just like any other appliance. There are many reasons why laptops are selling well, other posters have commented that laptops are reaching a kind of maturity that theu previously didn't have (large hard drives, decent screens, capable 3D graphics chips).

Re:just a theory...

[whmac33]

what does ease of Desktop upgrade have to do with software requiring upgrades?

How does that get insightful when it doesn't make sense?

Re:just a theory...

[thoolihan]

wtf...

Firstly if you are a gamer then you still need to upgrade every 6 months to keep up with the jones's (I get away with upgrading evey two years tho).

I am a gamer. And my box I built 15 months ago will still run any game on the market (at hi res, with good framerate).

Secondly, if this a thinly veiled attack at M$ bloat then...

It wasn't. Who knows where you got that. Maybe you're looking for a fight.

Basically I don't think that easy upgrade was ever an important for consumers.

It was important. When processor speeds were doubling in a matter of months, and several desktop apps could slow down a box. Opening up a box and dropping in more ram or a compatible new cpu was cheaper than getting a new box. Such advances made old laptops virtually unusable.

It's no longer true today. I use a 800 MHz PC in an office setting with no problems.
-t

Re:just a theory...

[EpsCylonB]

It was important. When processor speeds were doubling in a matter of months, and several desktop apps could slow down a box. Opening up a box and dropping in more ram or a compatible new cpu was cheaper than getting a new box. Such advances made old laptops virtually unusable.

It's no longer true today. I use a 800 MHz PC in an office setting with no problems.

Kind of prove my point there, how long ago was it that 800 mhz was top or even just medium spec. So why have people suddenly decided now that laptops are sufficient ?. It's because of the other factors that have been mentioned (laptops catching up with desktops basically).

Re:just a theory...

[Cloud 9]

It's because of the other factors that have been mentioned (laptops catching up with desktops basically).

It's less about catching up with desktops as it is catching up with the home user. It was pretty clear a while ago that there was going to be a threshold where, for at least a while, the average user wouldn't be able to justify the newest and fastest hardware. That realization for consumers gave laptops a chance to catch up in the marketplace, as it gave the average user everything he/she needs, without making any sacrifices in terms of usability.

Couple that with the trend of laptop prices going down in general, and it's pretty easy to see why sales are up so much.

Yes, there will always be a minority of DIY and power-users who will keep demanding MORE, BETTER, FASTER, and they will, to some extent, keep driving the hardware market. I think a lot of /.'ers seem to forget, however, that that type of person is a minority. Most people just want something they can use to send e-mail or get work done.

Re:just a theory...

[varjag]

Is this a sign that 'joe user' starting to realize that software is no longer requiring upgrades every 6 months?

Or he may realize that these days you can't decently upgrade your year-old system anyway. When the time comes, you find that the motherboard doesn't supports the ultra-new 1GHz-bus DRSDDRAM, GeForce MMIII 1024++ now requires AGP 48x, your HD controller doesn't supports that Ultra-Fast-Wide-DMA mode on the newer drives and the latest Pathetion VI CPU won't fit in the old processor slot anyway. So why bother?

Re:DOLLARS. 500 million DOLLARS.

[Omicron32]

Where did it say in the US?

You American-centric insensitive clod!

Same article, different format

[krs-one]

Pretty much the same article on CNN, but a little nicer format with less intrusive ads: CNN's article

-Vic

In dollars, not units..

[wfberg]

Bearing in mind that desktops are cheaper, and that you can upgrade them more easily using off the shelf components, this doesn't mean that all of a sudden the world+dog are switching to laptops, especially not first time computer buyers looking for a family pc.

Re:In dollars, not units..

[computechnica]

Alot more people are buying laptops because they already have fast enough machine on their desktop, now they want mobility and maybe a few extra features to boot. I recently bought a Dell laptop that can burn CD, play DVDs, and let me play UT2003 & Q3A anywhere I want. I had priced the cost of the largest protable DVD stand alone and the smart choice was the laptop that could do more. I just returned from vacation where I used it to entertain the kids on the road with games and DVD (far cheaper than a dedicated in-car system). Navigated with a USB GPS reciever. I also used to backup the 3+ gigs of pictures from my 6-Mpixel camera (could have used a dedicated HD storage but CD-R are more reliable). Once again general purpose PCs are more cost effective than a lot of seperate gadgets (IMHO).

Re:In dollars, not units..

[Anonymous Coward]

...and dollars are what matter to the industry. Units are just a statistic.

Homebuilts -

[jpsst34]

I wonder how many PC users build their own - as in what percentage of desktop's are homebuilt, since these don't figure into the "retail PC sales" numbers.

In our little geek world, I'm sure the percentage of homebuilts is very high. But in the "real world," I wonder where that percentage falls to. I wonder if homebuilts account for enough to push laptop sales back under 50%, thus negating this /. story.

Re:Homebuilts -

[mercuryresearch]

It's a very small number. I research this stuff for a living, and 2% of people with PCs even open the case to upgrade graphics cards each year. Building your own system was less than 1% of PCs a few years ago, and that's when you actually saved money with DIY PCs.

With system prices now, unless you have components to reuse, it actually costs you money to build it yourself (i.e. buying a prebuilt Dell is cheaper than the prices of the components bought individually in low quantities.) Of course there are other (better) reasons to build your own system than just the money involved.

Re:Homebuilts -

[cmdr_beeftaco]

0%.

Re:Homebuilts -

[frodo from middle ea]

May be not in US..but outside world
In india, for e.g. college grad students assemble and sell PCs to make money.This was very common up untill about 2-3 years ago.
But then the prices of assembled PCs and OEM PCs differed by a factor of almost 2x to 2.5x.
As the OEM PCs have gotten cheaper and cheaper, i guess the assembling has decreased.
Plus with assembly what you get is pirated s/w while some ppl. have now started asking for leagal s/w

Re:Homebuilts -

[sean23007]

That's not really retail sales, though, so it wouldn't negate the story at all.

Re:Homebuilts -

[dbc]

Sounds correct to me.

I used to build my own systems, but unless I'm putting together a "stone soup" computer out of what's laying around the garage, I don't build them any more, even though I enjoy it. I can go to a local screwdriver shop, give them a laundry list, and say "build it". It's cheaper than buying the component parts and doing it myself, but I still get exactly the system I want.

Re:Homebuilts -

[Anonymous Coward]

When you buy a custom-spec'd computer from a small local shop, that basically counts as building it yourself. You give them an extra $25 to save you a bit of time, but you're still making all the descisions and you're still paying for each component at the small-quantity price.

I think that what the original poster meant was that 2% of people either build their own computers OR get someone to custom build them for them. 98% of people go to a major retail store and buy one off the shelf.

portability + power=profit

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

I never thought notebooks were that usefull until I got one myself. Its almost as powerfull as my desktop,but portable and more comfortable to use. Which makes me wonder if a stupider labtop that simply connects to a more powerful desktop would be even more usefull. I guess they still need to workout the bandwidth and display issues.

Re:portability + power=profit

[L. VeGas]

I have never understood the idea that laptops are more comfortable than desktops. My forearms are resting on my chair's armrests, my 21" monitor is at eye level. Try that with a laptop (sans docking station).

Re:portability + power=profit

[Jucius Maximus]

"Which makes me wonder if a stupider labtop that simply connects to a more powerful desktop would be even more usefull."

It's called a docking station ;-)

Re:portability + power=profit

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Granted. But with a labtop I can be laying down on my couch, bed, hammock, bed of grass, ect. Thats so much more comfortable than a chair. Plus, if the room with the desktop is too loud, hot ,cold or radioactive, I can take the labtop to a more suitable enviorment( I dont know maybe starbucks, or a grassy knoll). I can get into all of those comforatble reading positions and places that I read in.

Re:portability + power=profit

[Anonymous Coward]

The anonymous spelling nazi wants to know: why do you end words like "powerful" and "useful" with two Ls instead of one?

Re:portability + power=profit

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

My dear nazi, the extra "l" stands for Love.

Re:portability + power=profit

[lactose99]

I don't think its the laptop itself that's more comfortable, but rather the freedom to be anywhere that raises your level of comfort.

Perfect example: My desktop PC is quite comfortable to use with a 21" monitor at eye level, and a nice adjustable computer chair at my desk.

My laptop, with me in my Lay-Z-Boy in recliner-mode, is tons more comfortable than my desktop computer space.

A laptop's comfort level is directly proportional to the comfort of your best living/working space. A desktop PC's comfort level is only proportional to the comfort of space specifically designed for the desktop computer. Not only that, but it is very nice (with the aid of WiFi) to work or browse off of my back porch every once and a while.

A hidden reason

[Ignorant Aardvark]

We all know that porn drives all the technological progress we evidence around us. What do you think the first telescopic lens was made for? To look at the sky? Hah! Gallileo happened to have a really attractive woman living next door.

So it should be no surprise that laptops are outselling personal computers, because they are much more suited for the Viewing Of and Whacking Off To porn. Personal computers are large, unwieldy, and it's easy to get caught "doing the nasty" in front of them. Not so with laptops, in my personal opinion. They're portable, and can be transferred to anywhere in the house (along with thier pornographic contents) for ease of masturbation.

What sort of innovations does the future hold? I can't say for sure. But I can say for certain that they will bring pornography to us in more detail than ever before.

Re:A hidden reason

[LineNoiz]

What sort of innovations does the future hold? I can't say for sure. But I can say for certain that they will bring pornography to us in more detail than ever before.

Well, according to this article, it looks like the future of porn is FUFME...

Re:A hidden reason

[Leffe]

I'd like a really good wireless internet access, hehe, or maybe a holographic super projector... maybe even with some neural magic ;)
Note: I do not know what neural means. Or maybe I do...

Whatever, I want a holodeck now! Or even better, a portable holodeck, it's a little easier to keep a holopock(hm... maybe I should register that name) in your pocket than a starship in orbit. Actually getting up there is no problem, parking is.

Re:A hidden reason

[The Old Burke]

Congratulations; you just managed to convince yourself that the shellout of 2500 bucks for that laptop with a 17" LCD and a movable power plant was a genious move.

Also, congratulations to the slashdot moderator, who in all his genius managed to mod this "Interesting".

Re:A hidden reason

[Anonymous Coward]

So what will the next "handheld" be?

Re:A hidden reason

[LordSkippy]

"What sort of innovations does the future hold?"

POrn on your color cell phone screen - it's much more discreet.

Re:A hidden reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Hans Lipperhey of Middelburg invented the telescope in October 1608. Galileo did not construct one until June or July 1609. These dates are even more difficult to ensure since Sidereus Nuncius was not published until March 1610. Regardless, any advantage that Galileo had in terms of quality or power was lost by 1611. Maybe he was a pervert, but like most perverts he was only creative with known tools.

Re:A hidden reason

[lactose99]

Galileo lived around the age of the Renissance. Women, particularly in Italy, were considered beautiful if they were big, or at least full-figured. I don't think Galileo would have needed a telescopic lens to see his "really attractive woman living next door" under those circumstances.

Rather, I suspect Galileo was more interested in checking out the beautiful Amazonian women on neighboring planets.

Re:A hidden reason

[OpMindFck]

If only I could mod this up beyond 5. It's insightful, informative, funny, and offtopic all in one.

Re:A hidden reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what you need:

Mobility in your hands

Re:A hidden reason

[Anonymous Coward]

I have made it with a hot, sexy alien.
And isn't that what men dreamed of since they first looked up to the sky? - Zap Brannigan

Steve Jobs = Nostradamus?

[tweder]

And here I thought Steve Jobs was simply weilding the "Reality Distortion Field " when he declared this year as "The Year of the Laptop."

Re:Steve Jobs = Nostradamus?

[AlexeiMachine]

Of course! Steve Jobs has about 3% market share which is the same number as Nostradamus' accurate predictions!

Re:Steve Jobs = Nostradamus?

[Anonymous Coward]

And here I thought Steve Jobs was simply weilding the "Reality Distortion Field "...

He was. It is simply getting more powerful. :)

Re:Steve Jobs = Nostradamus?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we need a control to test this hypothesis. I suggest getting Steve to declare this year "The Year of the Lapdance."

But Still...

[rocket97]

I am sure that there are more *new* desktops in use than there are laptops. You have to take into the account the amount of people that build their own desktops as compared to those who build laptops (not too many people that I know of build their own laptops). I would say give it a few more years and then I can see laptops truly outselling desktops.

Re:But Still...

[Snags]

We geeks who build our own computers are actually a quite small fraction of total retail sales.

But you have a point in stressing *new* desktops. Because of the upgradability and the higher initial performance, a desktop can last a bit longer than a laptop. This factor would decrease the sales of new desktops.

Yep

[stratjakt]

1) Everyone pretty much has a desktop (who wants one), only nerds buy a new one every year - regular folk wait until the old one is broken.

2) People replacing desktops do so through dell online, or something like that. The leftover nerd percentage build their own. Noone wants to lug a big desktop and monitor out of best buy if they can have it delivered.

3) Laptops are flimsy, underpowered, overheated, and break easy. They really arent upgradable for the most part, they get replaced about every year or so in our office. Meanwhile we still have P166's in active duty.

Makes perfect sense to me, though it's hardly the signal of some sort of revolution in the computing industry.

Customizer!

[brakk]

It's because everyone that wants a desktop builds their own now so they can overclock it.

And this is a suprise?

[infonography]

As far as I've seen Desktop buyers almost routinely build their own. Even non-'IT professionals' are building them. I don't know many people building laptops for fun.

Re:And this is a suprise?

[DoorFrame]

You know a lot of very nerdy people if desktop buyers "routinely" build their own machines. I don't have numbers, but I'm sure the percent of people who build versus buy is miniscule. I know a lot of people with desktops, only of them was homemade. Most people aren't interested in the hassle for little reward.

Microsoft must be so happy....

[ozzy_ball]

... since almost all laptops are guaranteed to be running some form of Windows. I'll buy one when they ship it to me with FreeBSD installed.

Re:Microsoft must be so happy....

[Uart]

Apple laptops come with BSD installed... they just run Aqua on top of it.

BSD = Darwin = OSX

Re:Microsoft must be so happy....

[ozzy_ball]

BSD == free.
OSX == $$$$.

BSD != OSX.

while the OSX laptops are admittedly very cool, they're also very expensive.

It won't get any cheaper than FreeBSD until someone pays me to run an OS.

Re:Microsoft must be so happy....

[Anonymous Coward]

order one sans os.

http://www.powernotebooks.com/

they have a linux forum(which can give you some insight into how well freebsd will run on it)

Re:Microsoft must be so happy....

[lactose99]

For this reason (or at least as one of my reasons), I bought my laptop second-hand. Costed me about $350 for a reasonably-powered IBM ThinkPad 600E with no OS installed. FreeBSD 4.8 and 5.0 both installed quite effortlessly and 4.8 is the only OS I run on it. No Microsoft tax necessary-- the previous owner was nice enough to pay it for me.

Re:Microsoft must be so happy....

[Casca]

Would you actually use the version of BSD that some company put on your laptop, and be happy with the installation of it enough to not redo it yourself within five minutes of opening the box?

Didn't think so.

Slight Increase in Price?

[temojen]

I'm not sure what planet you're from, but where I'm from a 17", 1600x1200 CRT retails for ~$279CDN, and a 17", 1600x1200 LCD retails for ~$890CDN.

To me, 3x is not a slight difference in price.

Re:Slight Increase in Price?

[Sanction]

As I said in another thread, stick with common resolutions (maybe what 90% of people run at) and the price difference is minor. For people with major demands, the price can get steep, but for most users, barely.

Re:Slight Increase in Price?

[Anonymous Coward]

You said 'stunning resolutions'. 800x600 is not a stunning resolution. Nor is 1024x768, which is high for '90% of users'.

You just got slapped down, and now you can't admit it.

Re:Slight Increase in Price?

[PetWolverine]

A 17" LCD is a lot bigger than a 17" CRT. With LCDs, the inches refer to the size of the screen, all of which is viewable. With CRTs, the inches refer to the size of the screen--some of which is covered by the casing and made unusable by the fact that the tube curves at the very edges. Combine that with the fact that LCDs are sharper, so that 1600x1200 is actually readable on a 17" screen, and brighter, and don't flicker--basically, look for a CRT that matches the quality of a 17" LCD and you're looking for a 19" CRT designed for very demanding users.

None of this changes the fact that people who simply want a cheap monitor and not a good one will buy a CRT, but then, the differences between Macs and Wintels don't cause people to shell out the cash for a Mac, either.

Now I'll be modded down by Wintel advocates for indicating that Macs are better, and by Mac zealots for indicating that Macs are more expensive. While I do believe that Macs are better, let me qualify both implications by saying that they're perceived that way on both counts, and if you accept at least hypothetically that common wisdom is correct, the analogy stands.

Re:Slight Increase in Price?

[Anonymous Coward]

You would never run a 17" LCD at that high a resolution. I have an 18", and it does 1280x1024, and looks very nice, nicer than the 19" CRT I used to have (18" viewable :) at the same resolution.

Really though, it's just my opinion, but people who would run a 17" CRT/LCD at 1600x1200 are complete idiots. How can you see ANYTHING? And if you can, I can absolutely guarantee you that you WON'T be able to after a year.

Re:Slight Increase in Price?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should always use the highest feasible resolution on your hardware. That allows you to display content with the most precise detail and smallest aliasing artifacts. If higher resolutions make everything smaller (harder to see), you're using a broken GUI.

Re:Slight Increase in Price?

[Sanction]

Um, no, I never said "stunning" resolutions. The numbers are about even for 1280x1024, more than adequate for all the normal users I know, most of which still run at 1024x768.

My theory

[mrpuffypants]

Once again proving my time tested old theory:

The fatter and older we nerds get, the slimmer and younger our computer get.

Re:My theory

[hendridm]

> The fatter and older we nerds get, the slimmer and younger our computer get.

Which proves my theory, that Germans love David Hasselhoff.

Cash amount, not number of units...

[Man Eating Duck]

I read this as "Higher number of laptops than desktops".
As laptops generally cost a lot more, it's not that surprising. I also think that laptops are most popular among business / professional users (who can afford the higher price for increased convenience), while the vast majority of home users have desktops as their primary /only computer.

Could something similar be the case with the LCD's?

Pardon my English...

Re:Cash amount, not number of units...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you noticed how crappy the consumer retail desktops have become? Compare the engineering of say, a nice solid Toshiba laptop to an e-Machines special-du-jour.

Also notice that the superstores sell laptops standalone, while they only sell desktops bundled with a crappy printer and monitor.

Now that the price gap is closing, the laptop is actually the better value proposition.

Who here is in love with their laptop?

[ACK!!]

I cannot imagine computing without them. I carry mine around almost everywhere I can. Sitting back in a cafe typing out code before a friend shows up or playing a game. I use mine everywhere.

It is also nice to be able to sit the thing in my lap and sit in the same room as my wife and hold down a conversation instead of being relegating to one room while I aimlessly surf.

Any others? Who loves having a laptop?

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[Anonymous Coward]

get a life, pal.

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[Uart]

hey, if I had 100 bucks for a 802.11g card for my powerbook, I would definitely be right there with you in the cafe.

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[Anonymous Coward]

shouldn't you be in love with your wife? I mean I know if I were capable of obtaining such a thing, the word laptop would gain a new meaning for me.

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[larien]

I'm trying to get a job that would involve an hour trip in a train each way, and I'm thinking of getting a laptop for that, just to do some gaming and/or web work done on the train to ease the boredom. Just a thought at the moment, which may give way to an iPod and a book... :)

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[gold23]

I have to agree. I don't want to be relegated to the "office" room when working on the computer, and having the machine at hand while watching a movie or television means never having to wonder "What else have we seen him/her in?" Or if I'm watching something good, I can search IMDB for other films by that director or writer, and queue them up in Netflix immediately, instead of making a mental note and misplacing it later.

And that does not even take into account the ability to leave home with it, and administer my servers remotely anywhere there is an accessible hotspot.

I think my next step will be a tablet PC, once I can be sure that I can run Debian on it. (And once I have the requisite cash, of course, which may mean around 2010.)

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[ezHiker]

It is also nice to be able to sit the thing in my lap and sit in the same room as my wife and hold down a conversation instead of being relegating to one room while I aimlessly surf.
I sometimes use my laptop (which actually belongs to my company) for the same reasons, but I have to tell you, when it comes to comfort, nothing beats my desktop. I prefer my big 21" monitor, full size keyboard, and speakers that actually sound good. I can work all day/night at my desktop, but I can only tolerate a couple of hours at a time sitting on the couch with my laptop squinting at the tiny screen, while shifting positions trying to remain comfortable.
The thing that really pisses me off are the people at my office who bitch and moan about how much they need a laptop instead of a desktop. I actually believe they see the laptop as sort of a status symbol for some reason, but when they get one, most of them rarely if ever take it off their port replicator! They just want to be seen with a laptop on their desk. It irritates me because we can purchase two really nice desktop systems (which are more powerful and upgradable) for the price of one of those laptops.

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[mpost4]

I love the fact that when I head out of the house, I can just put it in its bag, and if I need to do anything, or grab my e-mail I can as long as I can get a cell signal. Also with the 802.11b network card, I have fast access to the net at work, home, and at my church (yes you read that right).

I can not invision my life with out my little laptop, and I only have been using laptops since Dec of 2000.

Re:Who here is in love with their laptop?

[mpost4]

I probably should say one other thing, I don't use the network during the services. I am there a lot of the time doing all kinds of work around the church. And I am responsible for the network also (which is fitting since I am the one that put it in.)

And where do all those laptops go?

[Minwee]

That's hardly surprising. How often do you think people replace a stolen desktop?

And...

[BlueSkyResearch]

In other news today, the President of the United States is George Bush! More News at 11:00.

Re:And...

[presearch]

well, sort of.

Re:And...

[PetWolverine]

Sort of today, sort of president, sort of United States, sort of George Bush, or sort of news?

Please to be specifying. I think any one of them could fit.

Price Gap is finally Closing

[kremvax]

It's not surprising when you think about how much the price gap between laptops and comparably equipped desktops (with a 15"-17" monitor) cost.

As a recent p-4 2.4ghz with 15" screen laptop only runs about $1100, a comparable desktop (retail) runs close to $1000, why not get it in a portable package?

( OK, a hardcore gamer who wants to swap in a $400 graphics card would not want this... But somtimes you just need to use a machine to accomplish work, learn, communicate, etc. honest...)

Kremvax

Re:Price Gap is finally Closing

[vasqzr]

Most of the computers sold at the Best Buy's and Circuit City's of the world are the $400 (after rebates) models.

Re:Price Gap is finally Closing

[Anonymous Coward]

baloney.

1ghz/256mb ram machine that will function for work purposes for 99% of the people in the U.S. can be had for $300 including 17" crt.

try $1000 for a laptop....but you still end up cursing the 4200rpm drive and crappy integrated video.

Re:Price Gap is finally Closing

[WuphonsReach]

Costs at our work are more like $1200 for a desktop and $2400-$2800 for a laptop. That's the price to get something that will last 3-4 years with maybe only a RAM upgrade in the last year of life.

Why so much for the desktop? OfficeXP adds $250, plus we go for 512Mb of RAM. And we're still upgrading to 17" CRTs around the office (hoping to switch to 1280x1024 15" LCDs next spring as the standard).

My Work Is Afraid of Laptops

[Silent_E]

My work actually makes it almost impossible to buy lap tops for its employees (despite the fact that most of us work at home 1/2 time) becuase they don't want to loose immediately control of their equipment. I wish my work would get with the hardware!

Bummer

[Realistic_Dragon]

Personally the demise (or semi-demise) of the desktop market will be a sad day for me - it'l mean cheaper laptops for sure, but it means that to do the following i'll have to pay a fortune for server hardware which no longer benefits from having commonalities with desktop parts. Laptop hardware (at least at present) can't meet these requirements:

Easy and cheap to replace one part only when it breaks.
Cant run for days (currently at 48d 7h here) under high load without overheating.
Means you have to buy _two_ screens to get a decent one on your desktop - the built in one and a good 21" one as well.
Don't stack into a pile easily to make a cluster.
Easy to pick out parts that have good drivers for Linux.

Re:Bummer

[agent dero]

They said more laptops sold than desktops.

Not that Desktops went into extinction after being hit by a meteor.

Don't have a damn panic attack.

i think i have an idea why

[intermodal]

less people actually need a new desktop, and more people want a laptop to go to college, to haul around for business, etc. I know since getting my thinkpad (used, not retail) i rarely use my desktop.

Well - CRT's are technically still superior...

[CodeMaster]

I have to disagree...

As much as I like a good LCD that minimizes desk clutter and get you more space, it does not compare yet to a good CRT monitor in terms of color separation and refresh rates.

I would not have noticed it unless I would have started fiddling with digital photography and video for fun...

Re:Well - CRT's are technically still superior...

[Anonymous Coward]

dude you sound like a parrot. color separation applies to CMYK printers, not RGB monitors.

Been hanging around with a few too many pro photoshop mac users lately, have you?

LCD's are cheap

[vasqzr]

I got an email from TigerDirect today.

LCD specials

14" for $159
15" for $219
17" for $319

Do we see 17" LCD's for $249 this Holiday season?

LCD's are great for multiple monitor set ups, your desk doesn't collapse like with CRTs. Then again, your colors don't quite match up either...

Re:LCD's are cheap

[stratjakt]

We do multi-LCD demos on the road, our software uses 3 concurrent screens. They match up fine IF you buy 3 of the exact same make and model and production run.

One of our demo screens died, and we pretty much wound up replacing all three, because the replacement (same make and model) didnt match color-wise.

LCDs are nice desktop displays for most work. But the fixed resolutions, ghosting, and color problems will keep CRTs around for a while to come. They're a slowly expanding niche market, IMO.

Re:LCD's are cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

You must not be using a Mac....

If I simply run through the color sync wizard built into OS X, I can make a frickin' NTSC [never the same color twice] television match the LCD in my mac. Two LCDs are trivial as are an LCD and a CRT.

Re:LCD's are cheap

[Captain Beefheart]

Those are great prices, but 25ms response time and no DVI port explain the cost reduction. And huge white borders around the LCD, while designed to give the illusion of a brighter display, also serve to make it feel smaller. Huge borders also make for less practical multi-monitor setups.

Still, for those who have to reclaim desktop space, reduce electric bills and ambient temperatures (say in a corporate environment where the aggregrate of dozens of LCDs can save mucho in utilities bills over the long run) those are serviceable picks. Just don't scroll your text too fast.

Re:LCD's are cheap

[eht]

if you're going to use an acronym at least use the right one, it's Never Twice the Same Color

Re:LCD's are cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course the same software exists on PC, but I didn't tell you that, you need to live in a world were you think your computer is better without looking outside.

Re:LCD's are cheap

[ealar dlanvuli]

I can't make my CRT and LCD match, the brightness just won't go right, no matter what. Not to mention whenever I got it close, moving 15 degrees would mess it up again.

Color synch is great, but there is a limit to making non-similar displays look the same.

Re:LCD's are cheap

[Billly Gates]

Outrageous! 17- inch is very tiny. I think my current 19 inch is too small and can't wait to upgrade to 21 inch.

I can upgrade for only a little but more then the 17 inch by next fall if the prices continue to drop.

$319 for a 17 inch monitor? Come on.

PS the ones you listed have .39 density and are more blury. THe good ones with .22 or .23 cost $599 or $699 for a 17 inch. Also LCD's are less reliable then CRT's. I find no good reason for them other then space.

Re:LCD's are cheap

[leshert]

Another reason they're still using unnecessarily large bezels is that in office environments where the back of the monitor doesn't face a cubicle or office wall, the edge of the picture gets lost in the background, allegedly increasing eye strain.

I don't have a link to hard information on this, but there was a recent article in one of the standard computer trade rags (I happened to read it at the dentist's).

I'm not sure I buy the argument, but it makes sense. I suppose the monitors from Deus Ex were just too good to be true...

Do these figures include...

[packethead]

the US military? How many of these were rack-mounting in army jeeps?

Just a thought. I try not to have too many of them.

Re:Do these figures include...

[Anonymous Coward]

The article is about RETAIL sales.

I don't think the army is marching over to Best Buy for computer equipment.

Unsatisfied customers!

[freeze128]

Yeah, LCDs outsold CRTs, but how many of the LCD owners are unsatisfied with their slower responding pixels and limited viewing angle?

Every day where I work, users are saying they want an LCD monitor for their workstation. Of course, we have no money in the budget for that, so I have to tell them 'no', but they don't know that the LCDs have downfalls. They just think that they are 'Cool'.

Re:Unsatisfied customers!

[packethead]

Well, "cool" sells! How do you think smokers learned to smoke?

Re:Unsatisfied customers!

[MoOsEb0y]

Actually, I bought a LCD at the beginning of May, and I am quite satisfied with it. There's only a slight pixel lag which is most noticeable when scrolling webpages. (No joke!) I can't even notice the lag when playing games or movies. As for the viewing angle, I have no problems whatsoever. I can look at my screen from pretty much anywhere and have no problems.

20 watt power consumption, reduced heat radiation, and smaller footprint on my desktop all while having sharper text than before? Sign me up :D

Re:Unsatisfied customers!

[Repugnant_Shit]

I second this opinion. The grandparent must have bought or used some really shitty LCD. I have a NEC 17" that I use for gaming, movies, etc. I've had up to four people sitting around it, and we don't have to crowd close because the viewing angle is so wide.

Re:Unsatisfied customers!

[pmz]

...they don't know that the LCDs have downfalls.

For most professionals, there are no downsides for LCDs. Most jobs don't require super-accurate colors or ultra-small pixels (although Apple seems satisifed with LCDs), nor have I noticed problems viewing good LCDs from angles.

LCDs are appropriate for every non-gaming non-animation task I can think of, right now.

Re:Unsatisfied customers!

[appleLaserWriter]

Hey, I've got a Sony G520, willing to trade for any of those crappy Apple Cinema displays :)

totally obvious

[undoman]

With wireless networking beeing around - this was becoming totally obvious. if you would ask me to expend 2k euro on a small and superflat laptop just for surfing, mail and irc.. i would say yessss!

Common Complaint

[vasqzr]

(Assuming you're using Windows)

Turn on Large Fonts.

I hear this all the time with my laptop users at work.

You can't get any work done in 800x600 anyway. Hell, for much other than Word, 1024x768 stinks too!

Re:Common Complaint

[asscroft]

I think XP has extra large fonts. I guess that's extra nice for working at 4096*3072.

800x600 has it's purposes. It is great for streaming videos. Everything is bright and colorful and looks more like a tv. a 320x240 vid stream doesn't look nearly as nice when it's 1/12 of your screen.

Re:Common Complaint

[Anonymous Coward]

Old farts dont need anything more than 640x480... move aside...

Re:Common Complaint

[p2sam]

Real old farts don't need anything more than 80x24... move aside...

Re:Common Complaint

[Anonymous Coward]

Real old farts don't need anything more than 120 characters per line on paper. with punchcards and shit... move aside...

Re:Common Complaint

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

You can't get any work done in 800x600 anyway.

Sheesh. I have to work on an 800x480 screen when I'm on the move. :-P ( As seen here, running Debian ).

YLFI.

Re:Common Complaint

[Anonymous Coward]

Real old farts don't need anything more than a panel of switches & blinkenlights... move aside...

Re:DOLLARS. 500 million DOLLARS.

[stile]

In the article, which I read to clear up the confusion previously stated.

You insensitive Slashdot-centric clod.

ooh! ooh! I know why!

[aflat362]

Well . . .

Maybe because more people are realizing it is a better idea to build their own desktop PCs from retail parts rather than buying an Expensive, Non-Upgrade-Friendly, Pre-Windows-Loaded Piece of Junk.

And They can't build their own Laptops. :(

Multiple resolutions, my friend

[Atario]

One trick LCDs still can't (really) do.

wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

they compare laptops vs. desktops by looking at sales, not units sold. where i work we buy machines every week, and while we buy 2 times more desktops than laptops, the totals are the same. i think that's because laptops have a longer lifespan. ppl say: i'm going to throw out that extra 500$ for that up-to-date model since it will be harder for me to upgrade later. same thing for CRT vs LCD, we bought a 19' lcd for trade shows and we could have bought a shitload of 19' crt for that price.

desktops still rule the market

Re:wrong

[timeOday]

I agree "outselling" is ambiguous, but you goofed by saying desktops still "rule the market." A market is *always* measured in dollars, not units. Otherwise one would say that the market for automobiles is dwarfed by the market for M&Ms.

No it's not.

[The Grinner]

I can see how it's sort of ambiguous in the original article, if however you go to the NPD web site you can read their original press release where it's actually clear that they are refering to # of units sold for LCD's. It also turns out though that they are indeed refering to percentage of money for Desktop/Laptop sales.

Re:No it's not.

[Snags]

Seems somebody's been doing the same web browsing as me for the last 5 minutes.

Re:Imagine a...

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a beowulf cluster of "ZIP IT" signs, yeah.

One reason for this

[El]

If I buy something with an LCD screen, I want to see it fired up first with an all black, then an all white screen to make sure none of the pixels are defective (yes, my current laptop has 1 green pixel that is on all the time, and it's annoying as heck!) Don't have this problem with CRTs...

Re:Imagine a...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I bash the Big Blue Blob with my Lawsuit of SCO +5." - Chris Sontag plays D and D.

DM: Sorry, Sontag - your warrior has only a THAC0 of 8, and Big Blue Blob has an AC of -25. You *missed*.
Sontag the Warrior: Oh Shit!
DM: (rolling d20) Big Blue gets initiative this round.
DM: (rolling d20 again) Big Blue casts Hostile Takeover. Sontag, roll a d20 saving throw.
StW: (rolls d20, laughs) That's right, bitches! Got an '18'!
DM: Sorry, Sontag - lower rolls wins. You fail your saving throw... hold on (rolling %) - Sontag, you suddenly lose all of your material possessions in a puff of blue smoke - including the shirt on your back. You're basically buck-naked now.
Linus the Conjuror: Ha! That's what you get for fscking with the beast, Sontag.
StW: Fsck you, Linus.
DM: Your move, Linus.
LtC: I cast Summon Open Source Developer Community.
DM: (explaining the scene) In a flash of brilliant light, over 10,000 hard-core coders suddenly appear, each weilding personal digital devices and having a 'Charisma' of -3 (that's an average). Each of them turn to attack... Sontag!. Sontag, your move.
StW: Run away! Run away!
DM: Big Blue moves - sorry, Sontag, Big Blue just smited you. You take 1,200 hit points damage. Oh, and those 10,000 coders start ripping your limp, worthless body to shreds. You are irrevocably DEAD

laptops outsell desktops, except that they don't

[frovingslosh]

laptop computers accounted for 54 percent of of 500 Million in retail computer sales last year

But if you look at the statement, they only say that laptops accounted for 54% of $ of retail sales. Given that laptops are generally more expensive, desktops still outsold laptops in numbers. Add to that the average guy can build his own desktop, which is not counted in these numbers, but cannot build his own laptop or notebook, and the actual number of desktops as well as dollars spent on desktops far exceeded laptops.

So they can twist sales numbers to say what they want, even if it isn't accurate. What else is new? And who really cares?

I wonder why...

[Anonymous Coward]

So laptops cost more and last a shorter time than desktops?

Re:DOLLARS. 500 million DOLLARS.

[LordSkippy]

No, no, every man, woman, and child in the US (280,562,489 according to the CIA world fact book) bought 1.78 computers last year.

I know I did!

Actually...

[No Such Agency]

I rather enjoy any time I spend in a computer-free environment. I do other things like talk to people, watch people, have a drink, breathe the fresh air. I cannot succumb to the temptation to check my e-mail/Slashdot every 5 minutes, or play a game.

It is also nice to be able to sit the thing in my lap and sit in the same room as my wife and hold down a conversation instead of being relegating to one room while I aimlessly surf.

I think the key here is to not "aimlessly surf". Unless your wife is a horrible creature (which I'm guessing not, since you talk to her) I imagine her company is far more interesting than anything you turn up while aimlessly surfing. So don't do it, in the room with her or otherwise. The only reason I "aimlessly surf" is because I am single and often have nothing better to do with my time.

Re:Actually...

[lactose99]

Trust me... if/when you get married you will continue to aimlessly surf, if only to come up with new and interesting things to talk about with your wife. After being married for a year, my daily grind drivel is only so interesting to the one person who's listened to it every day.

IMO aimless surfing can be a mind-expansive activity if done to do more than simply waste time.

Re:Actually...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would kill myself before I'd carry a computing device (laptop, noteboot, pilot, pda) everywhere with me. I mean, for fuck's sake, don't you spend enough time with computers already? Wouldn't the guy rather concentrate on talking to his wife and spend time with her, instead of splitting his attention and ignoring her? I find people far more interesting than computers, and I imagine whoever I choose to spend the rest of my life with will be pretty damn interesting. Definitely more so than /.

Re:Actually...

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it is more fun/interesting to lounge around a fireplace or a couch or a tv or something and just enjoy the time you have together (which probably isn't that much if you both work). You don't have to yak at each other mindlessly 24/7, you know.

Re:Actually...

[Graspee_Leemoor]

"I find people far more interesting than computers"

Intruder Alert!

graspee

Haven't had it long, have you?

[fireboy1919]

Just wait 5 years.

I'll still be using the desktop machines I've got - doing incremental upgrades, of course - but it'll basically be the same boxen.

By then your laptop will be gone. Even if you don't step on it, drop it, run over it with a car, or get it stolen, it'll die from overheat or one of the internal components will break and be irreparable because everything's integrated (with the possible exception of the harddrive).

And then you'll have to buy another one.

Laptops may eventually replace desktops in per-unit usage simply because the laptop owners have to keep buying new ones, while the desktop owners don't. Kind of like how industrial laser printer sales are far fewer than inkjet printer sales.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Sanction]

Yep, and I'll be playing games at a friends house, answering my email while sitting at the beach, and enjoy the ability to not be chained to one location by a gigantic box when I want to work on my PC :)

Then I'll buy another one, with the same money I could have used for desktop upgrades, without having to suffer the intervening years with lack of portability.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[JVert]

If you are running the same case as you were 5 years ago I will slap you. And most incremental upgrades not related to gaming include memory and hard drive. But no I havn't had it long, and I dont plan to either, I'm gonna sell to a student or someone else who doesn't need a higher end machine, because well, laptops hold their value alot better then homebuilt PC's.

And as far as failure rate I still have 2 working thinkpad 701c's (486 100mhz). I only keep them around because they look so cool with their butterfly keyboard.

I'm not trying to lapzealot I think at least 1/2 of the people who are currently buying laptops still have a PC at home in active duty.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Obfiscator]

I bought my laptop in Feb. 1998.

It's still running fine today, albeit a little slow (233 MHz was fast when I bought it, I swear!).

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[xanthines-R-yummy]

In MY laptop I've replaced (personally, mind you): LCD screen RAM processor HDD CD-->DVD-CDRW If I wanted, I CAN upgrade the video. Laptops are more modular today than you'd think. I'll have the same boxen in 5 years too. -X

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll still be using the desktop machines I've got - doing incremental upgrades, of course - but it'll basically be the same boxen.

That's what I said too, but technology progresses so fast these days that there's no point in upgrading the same old tired box. Let's see, the second to last time I upgraded I needed to change the case since all the new stuff was ATX and PS2 while I had an AT case and AT/serial keyboard and mouse. I had to upgrade the RAM since EDO 72-pin simms had been obsolete and pc-100 ram was the new hotness. So what did I salvage? My 8 year old Logitech Trackman Marble. That's it. The only reason I kept that is because it was native PS/2 without the serial adapter I was using.

When I upgraded from this "new" system (PIII-500) to my Athlon 1.4Ghz box I again had to mostly buy new stuff. The case was too cramped for cooling an Athlon and the 230watt power supply was insufficient. The motherboard was for a PIII, the RAM was PC-100 when the new hotness was PC-1600 DDR RAM. What did I end up salvaging? A Soundblaster PCI-512 card and my Logitech Trackman Marble. Now, you're probably saying I could've saved the AGP graphics card and the network card, but the AGP graphics card was an original GeForce 256, and the network card was a 3c509 10Mbit card. So, away those went for a spiffy new GeForce 2 Pro card and a 3c905c.

Now, the next time I face upgrading I have a nice case which I can probably save, the graphics card was recently upgraded to a GeForce 5600 FX card, and the 3c905c is still strong as is the SB PCI-512 card, but most boards have onboard audio and LAN these days so I can dump those. The memory is obsolete these days with that 400MHz DDR RAM being the new hotness and Athlons way up there at 3200+! Sheesh. I then find myself back in the old situation. I need a new motherboard, new RAM, new CPU, so why not just get a new case and keep the old system intact? So, basically the "I'll just upgrade it in place" argument doesn't hold water for me. I might upgrade a graphics card, but if I get into the arena of upgrading a motherboard or CPU I end up building a whole new system and keeping the old one as a server.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with you.

just the other day i wanted to upgrade my 450mhz celeron system.

after searching and contacting vendors, i finally found a slot-1, 800mhz coppermine(100 fsb).

i charged the shipping and handling (about $200).

I then realized that walmart sells an entire 1ghz box for $200.

don't i feel stupid.

my message: i think you got real lucky to get a "score 3: informative"

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't just leave your butterfly lying around, use it! They make great low-power home routers/firewalls or file/print servers. If your battery is still good, they can even survive brief power outages.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll still be using the desktop machines I've got - doing incremental upgrades, of course - but it'll basically be the same boxen.

Me too. My current machine is 5 years old... I've replaced a few things, but it's still basically the same machine.

I've only replaced the motherboard (the old one got fried), got a new cpu since they were cheap. Added some more RAM, and a couple of bigger harddrives. I got a CDRW to replace the the CDROM that was making odd noises. I replaced the case because the power supply blew, and it was cheaper to by a whole case than just a power supply seperately. Bought a new keyboard, the old one was sticking, and it came with a new mouse. Oh my brother dropped my screen when he was helping me move, so I got a new 19" one. Upgraded my TNT card to a GeForce4 Ti4200 so Quake 3 would run better. That's all though.

Still basically the same machine but.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you'll get a social life and leave your PC at home.

Or maybe not....

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't stand laptops. The screens are small, everything looks crappy, the "mouse" is a nightmare, and they're also a nightmare to fix, and all the parts are expensive.

Why would anyone want one?

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[spike hay]

just the other day i wanted to upgrade my 450mhz celeron system.

after searching and contacting vendors, i finally found a slot-1, 800mhz coppermine(100 fsb).

i charged the shipping and handling (about $200).

Yeah, you don't see the slot-1 processors much at all anymore. Hell, I can't even find them on Pricewatch. But you still got ripped off. You could have gotten an Athlon 2500/el cheapo ECS mobo combo for only $145, including shipping, off of pricewatch.

That would have kicked the ass of your 800 celeron and would definitely kick the ass of a Walmart PC. By the way, be glad you didn't get the Walmart PC. Yes, they are 1 ghz. But the fact that it has a tiny amount of ram, horrible onboard video, plain bad chipsets, etc, means that the Walmart PC will likely be as slow or slower than your 450 celeron.

My brother's girlfriend bought a 1.6 ghz eMachines for $1200 (!) last Christmas. The thing might have a fast enough processor, but it is completely incapable of running Windows XP that was bundled with it. By completely incapable, I mean it would take a couple minutes to boot up, and several seconds to open the start menu. Unusable. Contrast this with my old computer, a Compaq 633 celeron that was bought for $600 two years ago that is perfectly capable of running Windows XP. (Although I run Win2k.)

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

By then your laptop will be gone.

I don't think this is necessarily true. My day to day laptop is over five years old, and it's still performing as snappily ( Disclaimer: 166Mhz processors weren't really that snappy back in 1998 either ) as it ever was.

Here in the office, we also have all kinds of ancient laptops which are kept around for one legacy reason or another, and they're usually retired because we don't have a need for them anymore, not because of unit failure. Perhaps laptops are made more shoddily today. I sure hope not, because I'm hoping to buy a Powerbook in the next month or so.

I don't really know if anyone buys laptops expecting the same things you do from a PC ( the incremental upgrade path, etc ). Laptops are expensive, but for that price, you get mobility, which is very valuble to some. If you travel a lot for work, have a long public transport commute ( like me ), need computers in awkward situations ( e.g. for attaching to a router console in the top point in a rack ) or don't have much living space, the lack of upgrade potential is a non issue. If you're not a gamer, all you'll want to upgrade anyway once you reach optimal performance point is memory and hard drive space - both of which are usually accessible on a Laptop.

I would never buy desktop computers preferentially to laptops if cost wasn't such a hamstringing issue, particularly as newer laptops with DVI-outs or equivalent and USB/PS2 keyboards and mice make a functionally drop-in desktop replacement.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Rob Simpson]

Heck, I've bought a used Toshiba Portege 610CT, 90mhz with a "Designed for Windows 95" sticker on it a couple years ago, and it works great. I have to plug it in, as the battery is long dead, but everything else works great.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Obfiscator]

I have that dead battery problem, too. I bought a new one when it died the first time, but that died way too quickly so I haven't replaced it since.

I guess having to plug it in defeats the purpose of a laptop, doesn't it?

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[mpost4]

My brother's girlfriend bought a 1.6 ghz eMachines for $1200 (!) last Christmas. I got my new laptop in may, and it was $200 less then that eMachines. And it works fine. I thought the idea behind an eMachine was that they were marketed to be cheaper then the others?

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[mpost4]

I have a nice port replicator for my laptop, it plugs into one of the USB ports, and has 2 ps/2, 1 serial, 1 parallel port, and 2 more USB ports on it. It is nice to plug it in and have all the home devices connected to the laptop with on plug (I just need a usb 2.0 hub now.)

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Rob Simpson]

Not really - finding an outlet isn't all that hard. Using it on a bus or plane is kinda hard, but it can still be used in a hotel room/library/ferry(they've got plugs near tables specifically for that purpose)/etc. Plus, having a 2 hour (or less*) battery life defeats the purpose of most new laptops anyway - I wouldn't buy an expensive, brand-new one unless it had at least 4 or 5 hours of battery time (while actually being used, like playing a DVD).

*I tried out a new Toshiba that was almost out of juice after half an hour. Also, the fan would start roaring on and off like at engine revving at the slightest cpu load, and I could almost see the waves of heat rising from the thing. Yay for Future Shop's full-refund policy!

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[Sanction]

But how can I have a social life if I have to schedule vacations and the time to have a life around the demands of work. If I can just carry my laptop with me, I can address that 15 minute problem without having to spend the whole day in the office or having to interrupt what I'm doing to find a computer.

Re:Haven't had it long, have you?

[spike hay]

I thought the idea behind an eMachine was that they were marketed to be cheaper then the others?

Yeah, that's at least what I thought. When I first saw the machine, its performance was terrible, but I thought, "Hey, at least she got a good deal on it." Then I was told the price.

Maybe it's because....

[McCutheonIV]

All they sell in retail stores is basically Compaq /HP (why one would buy one of those is beyond me)and Dell is the number one PC manufacturer. Also as mentioned you have all the "do it yourselfers".

A true LAPtop

[SunPin]

The Sony Picturebook is the only true laptop I've come across. It's a great little machine. The battery power lasts at least 12 hours (quad battery) and it generates *no* significant heat. Being in a wheelchair, I'm always critical of the term for exactly the reason you mentioned. Most of the laptops sold today might not be safe on a wooden table, like alone your lap.

Simple Solution

[WC as Kato]

Prove them wrong in their way of thinking. Steal some desktops and servers. Maybe throw in a switch and router too. That should get them to look at the big picture. Uh, well, maybe it would work but hey, if it doesn't you'll have some cool hardware for your home office.

Disclaimer: I'm not a crook and neither should you be.

Excuse me sir...

[moogla]

I don't fucking care about your macs. Mac and cheese, on the other hand, is always a consistent shade of yellow if you buy it from Kraft.

Clearly, mac 'n cheese is superior. QED

of of?

[gazoombo]

This article confused me. What is "54 percent of of" anything anyway?

statistics ...

[ReallyQuietGuy]

the economy is in a tailspin and that can have an effect if it disproportionately affects purchases of the two different types of computer. are purchases of laptops more or less elastic than desktops, i.e. with the economy down, are the people buying laptops more the type to buy them anyway or put them off? in which case whether laptop sales have outstripped desktop sales may be more significant than the raw numbers as provided would suggest. But then its hard to tell because as the previous posters have mentioned - these are dollar values (which with laptops generally costing so much more skews the numbers) AND it also doesn't capture the non-retail numbers, which basically means... "nothing to see here, move along"

Portability is the new killer app

[elliotj]

I bet laptops will continue to gain market share over desktops. For most people a good laptop has more than enough power to use office apps, Internet and maybe the odd game. And that's all most people need to do with their computers.

Now that you don't have to sacrifice power and performance for portability in any significant way, why would you bother buying a desktop other than cost? So I think a lot of people are thinking that getting a desktop that they can only use in one location is a major drawback.

Personally, I've been drooling over the new Apple G5s, but I really think my next computer will be another Powerbook. I take my TiBook everywhere with me, and with WIFI at home and work, I can use it all day. If I buy a desktop for home, I won't get to use it for most of my day.

Techies not accounted for?

[onelin]

I'm sure these numbers can't include all the custom built rigs that all the power users make. There's really no good way to put together your own laptop, either... so that adds more sales. I'd go to CompUSA for a laptop, but never for a desktop. In fact, my family did buy our laptop there last year.

Font sizes in XFree86

[temojen]

On Xfree86, edit /etc/X11/XF86Config and add to section "Monitor" the setting:

DisplaySize (Width) (Height)

where(Width) and (Height) are replaced by the width and height of the viewable area of your monitor in Milimeters.

With this setting you get exact font sizes whenever your fonts are not set by pixel sizes.

$500M that's it???

[Boombastic]

I can't believe that there is only $500M in retail computer sales in the US each year! I mean, how many Staples/Office Depots/Best Buys/Fry's do you guys have and combined they can only manage $500M? With ~290M people that would mean that the average person spent $1.72 towards a new computer. Yes, I know I'm going a little far with that one, but I think $500M is just way too low.

Re:$500M that's it???

[Boombastic]

EDIT I RTFA and saw that its only for May's sales. That's a little more reasonable......

Laptops and LCDs are economically justified...

[vudufixit]

Real estate is more expensive than
computers. And getting more expensive.
Computers get less expensive, at least
expressed as computing power and features
for a given amount of dollars.
Businesses want cubicles to stay small
(or get smaller) and people with home offices
want to make maximum use of that space.
It makes perfect sense on that basis.
However, I think there a lot of downsides
to laptops that overzealous desktop replacers don't see, including proprietary components,
vulnerability to physical damage and theft,
and relative difficulty of backing up whole
hard drives.

Re:Laptops and LCDs are economically justified...

[/dev/zero]

If you're running *nix, rsync makes backups a breeze. I wrote a couple of scripts that allow me to sync my laptop up with my workstation via ssh (don't even have to mount NFS filesystems).

Sensitive files (GnuCash, etc.) are stored on the HD encrypted, and decrypted onto a RAM-Disk when I work with them. If the laptop gets stolen, sensitive data are pretty safe.

Gordon.

Laptops are convenient.

[supabeast!]

Does anyone else think that laptops could be gaining ground simply because of the overall convenience of having a small computer with a built-in screen that can be carried around? Aside from hard-core gamers, not too many consumers have a need for a desktop and a large screen. It also saves one from having a big ugly desktop and monitor sitting around, which is nice from a aesthetics perspective, especially in apartments.

Possible reasons

[tmark]

Before anyone jumps to grand conclusions about what this means vis a vis desktops vs laptops:

I don't see anyone noting how laptops are inherently hard to upgrade. If your laptop is sluggish, you basically have two options: 1) add more RAM, and if that fails, 2) buy a new laptop. Whereas, with desktop PCs, you have several more options, like upgrading the CPU or buying a new graphics card. This means that the average desktop will have a longer upgradeable life than the average laptop.

A related factor is that the average desktop for under $1000 is way more powerful than the average $2000 laptop. So a desktop bought today is much less likely to be made obsolete by horsepower requirements within a given time frame than a laptop also bought today, if only because it has more horsepower right out of the box, even if that desktop costs a lot less.

And because of the inherent cost differential, people who can afford to buy laptops can afford to upgrade them faster.

Also, many people who buy laptops buy it for the chic factor, so they're going to upgrade (i.e. buy a new laptop) sooner than those people who buy the decidedly unchic desktop.

Laptops are undeniably at least partly about image, and people consume them every bit as conspicuously (and in the very same places !) as people consumed Filofaxes, cell phones, and PDAs before. And I've noticed many smirks or at least raised eyebrows when someone trundles in a 3-year old, heavy-as-hell-with-passive-matrix-screen laptop into a meeting. And many if not most of the laptop-advocates here are familiar with the satisfaction of hauling in the newest, coolest laptop, hearing the oohs-and-ahhs and having the neatest toy in the board room for the next month or so.

Re:Possible reasons

[burns210]

"Whereas, with desktop PCs, you have several more options, like upgrading the CPU or buying a new graphics card. This means that the average desktop will have a longer upgradeable life than the average laptop."

ya, you can upgrade, but many, many don't. how many ma & pops open up their computer and upgrade their video card? The majority of people arn't savvy enough to figure out how to handle those darn windows and buttons on the screen, why would they even consider opening up their computer?

Re:Possible reasons

[tekrat]

And I've noticed many smirks or at least raised eyebrows when someone trundles in a 3-year old, heavy-as-hell-with-passive-matrix-screen laptop into a meeting. And many if not most of the laptop-advocates here are familiar with the satisfaction of hauling in the newest, coolest laptop, hearing the oohs-and-ahhs and having the neatest toy in the board room for the next month or so.

Actually I ENJOY bringing in the oldest laptop, and showing off the fact that there's no HD (everything lives on a 2MB "card" in the Toshiba T-1000 SE), and how it's a DOS-only, 8088 powered laptop and yet, I can type notes in it just as fast as the newest laptops, and, because there's NO HD, I can drop it without worrying that my data is going to be destroyed. Oh, and I bought it for $10 at a garage sale.... And the battery still holds a decent charge, and there's lots of room inside to hack in some extra stuff.

In fact, many people look at my laptop simply because they've never seen one so old that WORKS.

But then again, if you visit my website, you'll understand why I like old laptops (and old computers).

I believe the market will then mature.

[Anonymous Coward]

As of right now, making a totally expandable laptop is not financially good business. But if portable style computers become the norm, then an open form factor will emerge. It happened with regular computers.

Retail stores only or online also?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this count physical stores only or web sale too?

If I was going to buy a random desktop PC chances are high that I'd just do it online - I only care about the rough specs... I know about what it'll be like to work with when it arrives. Or maybe I'd build my own if I was feeling un-lazy.

With a laptop the chances are much higher I would go to the actual store to make sure I liked the weight/keyboard/etc and pick one out that I could work with well.

Re: Old and known

[zaimor]

Amazing how people will hold onto the old & known, despite better options being available

See also: Microsoft Windows remains most popular desktop OS.

I LOVE STATISTICS... I make them up all the time

[enigmals1]

But seriously... I wonder what the statistics are of the amount of PC's bought in retail compared to on-line and how many specifically how many laptops vs. desktops are bought retail vs. on-line. Stastics show whatever the collector wants them to show. Here's some interesting points to think about... - How many of those laptops were purchased by people already owning desktops from previous years - People tend to want to purchase a laptop from a retail location because they can "feel" the product, whereas a desktop is pretty much just specs and can be purchased from the on-line store of any major brand. - Same is true for LCD panels where you want to check out the clerity and picture of a panel whereas CRT's tend to be more specs and commonplace for most purchasers. - Why would someone be buying JUST a display from a retail store? They are upgrading. Why upgrade? You want bigger, better or both. The rest of users are receiving their new monitors with their desktops they just purchased at the above on-line store. SUMMER: screw retail statistics or any selling portal for that matter. You want accurrate statistics? ...more accurately study the volume of PC's manufactured since demand generally drives supply for the following quarter and/or fiscal year. ;)

LCD? bah! give me CRT anyday

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate LCD screens. This school of ours has them in the library and it is more hassle than it's worth. My eyes still prefer the standard ole CRT.

Geek God

[Anonymous Coward]

I cannot imagine computing without them. I carry mine around almost everywhere I can...
Whoa!
Teach me more master.. I am like a sweaty jock in comparison to your all glowing geekiness.
I bet you don't even use a Mouse or GUI - it works for the construct right?

Re:DOLLARS. 500 million DOLLARS.

[Smitty825]

I wonder how far-fetched that number really is.

1. I'm certain a fairly large percentage of the population bought a new PC for home and another new one was provided for them in the office.

2. Lots of companies buy dozens of spare machines each year...some laptops for surprise business travel/presentations

3. Does that population number include non-citizens? (H1-B workers, L1 workers, tourists buying cheaper computers here than abroad in their own countries?) Also, are you sure it includes Children? I'm willing to bet many families have more than one PC in their houses.

4. Zealot Spending. There are many zealots of a certain fruit-flavored computer company that seem to need to purchase one of every new machines that the company makes...I'm guessing at least "4" for them...

5. I'm willing to bet that there was a certain (large?) percentage of the /. readership that bought more than one box.

6. What exactly counts as a "computer"? Do Palm/iPaq machines count?

Do I seriously think that the US averaged purchasing almost 2 computers per person last year? No, however, I wouldn't have been surprised to see this number during the "boom" ages!

I've heard this claim way too many times.

[Cowclops]

While it is true that LCDs that compare to more reasonably priced CRTs exist, you can't have comparable color/contrast reproduction AND just "a slight inrease in price."

There is more to video reproduction than pixels, and basic contrast ratios and brightness output.

LCDs are light valve technology, and as such they rely on another source of light such as a built in backlight. It is much more difficult to make the liquid crystal fully opaque and thus block out the interior bulb than it is to display black on a directview CRT display. Thus, though theu may have reasonable contrast ratios and brightness, most LCDs are terrible at reproducing very very dark grays without clipping it to black. It is the lack of linear grayscale reproduction that would prevent me from EVER purchasing an LCD or any light valve technology display. OLED will be nice, but thats a topic for a different discussion.

For $200, I can get a 17" PC monitor that has better grayscale tracking than a $300 or $400 15" LCD. For me, desk space is not an issue so the depth of the screen is really irrelevant. LCD is hardly a "better" option though most certainly a different option should you have the need and the money. However, reasonably priced LCDs are always going to be inferior to reasonably priced CRTs when it comes to resolution, brightness, contrast, and color, not to mention viewing angle and refresh time. They may be "better than ever" but they're still not as good as CRT if you actually value picture quality. I liken the LCD vs CRT debate to something such as Bose vs any real hifi speakers in the same price range, but once again thats a getting a bit far off topic. The point is, while it is a fact that LCDs are certainly smaller than CRTs, the argument for LCD picture quality seems to be based more in brainwashing advertising than real world comparisons.

yeah, but what operating system?

[Anonymous Coward]

Geez, as long as it isn't Linux! Anything's better than that! P.S. Linus Torvalds is a chicken-choker!

Yeah, except that a 19" LCD will give you the same

[AzrealAO]

viewable area as that 21" Monitor.

Local clone shops are about 50% of PCs

[AHumbleOpinion]

Last I heard local clone shops account for about 50% of PCs. These little shops don't appear in the "retail" numbers.

Re:get both in one package.

[Zurk]

get a desknote -- desktop parts in a portable laptop package and external battery if you really really need to have one.
cheaper than a regular laptop too.
i ditched my desktop for a desknote which is upgradeable around a year ago and ive not looked back since.

Small Is Better Than Big! News @ 11

[cenobita]

This also doesn't take into account the number of "power users" building their own systems..nor could it, since there's no real way to tell whether or not someone is building a completely new system or upgrading an existing one.

It also fails to mention the number of people buying both laptops *and* retail PCs.

I don't put much stock in statistics anyway, but I do kind of wonder where this Baker guy gets some of his figures from. Since when does your average LCD cost only $250 more than your average CRT? Personally, i'm a little confused as to why this is even put up as news.

"Attention! Experts say small computers are more appealing to the average user becuase they're compact and nicer to look at than big clunky fucking ones!"

Well..duh.

If Toshiba gets their way...

[zorcon]

...Laptops will soon outweight their desktop counterparts; coming full circle to 50lb full-towers with LCD's embedded in the side.

At this point "retro" mini-towers will become the standard portable computing solution.

Obvious Simpsons reference

[CausticWindow]

Doh!

I'm an American. I'm so fat and lazy that bringing my desktop is inconvinient. I need a laptop.

Blame it on college students

[spike it]

These days, 7 out of 10 college students own a laptop, thanks to mommy and daddy. Couple that with students' inability to keep their doors locked when they're out, resulting in their laptops being stolen. Mommy and daddy go out and buy a replacement laptop. Rinse and repeat.

custom built

[56ksucks]

This probably doesn't take into account the countless desktop PC's built by people who know how to build their own, and who had their friends/relatives who know how to build computers build one for them.

CRT fo LIFE!!

[sTalking_Goat]

Hell, I'll be using a CRT until I can buy a used 21" LCD with at least 1280 x * off ebay for less than $200.

As for laptops I'm still regretting the last computer that I bought. I could have gotten a desktop for half the price and a Zaurus with the rest of my saved cash and I'd be set. Instead I'm stuck with a box of integrated hardware thats alreadfy depreciated to half its value on Ebay in the 6 months that I bought it. Even if I sold it right now I'd still be paying for it at least until november.

Until I can buy a machine that fits in my hand, boots Linux and still plays the latest games 3 years after I bought it with minimal upgrades I'll stick to a desktop.

Atleast then I can rip my Motherboard,CPU and Video card out every 6 months and upgrade to keep my framerate playable.

Being a subscriber ...

[hayden]

... just to get first post. Now that's dedication.

Re: Large increase worth money

[Anonymous Coward]

Its what I do for at least 8 hours a day. I use to scoff at buying an LCD, but I put down $1000 of my own money a few months ago to buy a second one for work.

A lack of eyestrain is the key reason. I used to have a 21 inch ViewSonic. I would never go back. I can't imagine thinking twice about an $800 for something as important as a monitor, which I use every day. I'm not made of money, but I do value my time.

Reliability?

[Billly Gates]

I hate laptops.

Of course I do not own one but I constantly see them freeze, break, and battery efficiancy go down the tubes. I was a pc tech during the .com days. Laptops were always breaking fast then desktops.

PC's I remember reading had half the TCO because they are more reliable and the cost to repair them is substantially less. How much does a new ATA hard drives costs vs a proprietary IBM thinkpad equilivant? YOu get what I am saying.

I also hate the PCMCIA cards, and the tiny screens that break quickly and the outrageous price.

Most of my bad experiences were IBM thinkpads with 486 and pentium1's.

My data is a little obsolete since I have not shopped for one since the 1990's.

But I wonder if the situation has improved? If it has then maybe this would explain it. I loved desktops because I was into games when I was younger.

However they now finally have decent 3d graphics and after finishing community college this year, I will be going to a University with a wireless wan. This may appeal to me if the reliability improves and I can have full bluetooth support. Apple plans bluetooth in all newer macs and by next year will probably have it in G5 based portables.

I just may buy one.

Re:Reliability?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Heavy is good. Heavy is sign of reliability. And if it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it.

Re:Yeah, except that a 19" LCD will give you the s

[EvanED]

A 19" LCD is still $900-$1000. You chopped $300 off, but the point that thoy cost a *lot* more still remains. And besides, a 21" CRT will usually give you ~20" viewable, not 19". (The price quoted is for a 19" Philips 180MT13P, the cheapest response from a pricewatch search for "LCD 1600x1200 except for an $800 planar monitor, which I've never heard of. I feel that this is a fair search as IMO running at less than 1600 on a monitor that size would have been a waste of your money. Of course, I ran 1024x768 and sometimes even 1280x1024 on a 14" in the past, so I may not be the best person to judge, but still.)

It's what they sell

[gelfling]

Go to a retailer like Best Buy. They sell a dozen Desktops from $400 to $1900 and about 3 dozen models of laptop from $1200 to over $3500. And the really don't sell CRTs at all any more. Just when we got happy with $120 17" monitors the stores want to sell us $289 15" flat screens all the way up to $3000 'media' format flatscreens.

slot 1 upgrades

[David Jao]

after searching and contacting vendors, i finally found a slot-1, 800mhz coppermine(100 fsb).

Even if you were dead set on upgrading only the CPU, you still could have gotten a better deal at powerleap. They sell 1.2ghz/100mhz slot-1 for $129.

You do have to check your motherboard for compatibility on their list, but most motherboards will work fine with it.

And no, I'm not getting paid to say this--in fact I actually dislike how powerleap uses patents to lock out competitors from the slot-1 upgrade market. But as far as their product goes I've been using the 1.2ghz upgrade for over a year now and it has worked absolutely flawlessly.

Buicks vs. Oranges?

[Mars Ultor]

I see your point here, but this is a comparison of two different units in the same market, not different markets, in a matter of speaking. A better analogy is, how many Honda Civics are sold vs. how many Ferrari? A Civic will never cost more than a Ferrari, (or more realistically, say, any Buick), but that wouldn't necessarily give you a correct estimate of which car you have a better chance of seeing on the freeway. Just my 2($.01).

Homebuilt computers in India

[TheHorror!TheHorror!]

This might be a bit offtopic, but in India, almost 90% of all home computers are homebuilt. We generally have a friendly neighborhood salesman who is ready to make your comp for you with: 1) Zero inventory 2) Ultra low margins 3) Readily available and replacable parts, nothing propreitary. Stays near your house, sells you cheap computers, throws in a year of home service for FREE. Same day on-site service calls, since he doesnt stay too far off. Plus, you know where HE lives. :P Almost ALL the smaller businesses, e.g. building contractors with around 5-7 PCs, used assembled computers too. No wonder Dell and Compaq cant make much headway in this country. Tc, sidd

Pipe dreams...

[Archfeld]

Couldn't pay me enough to give up my CRT. A laptop I have for the sheer convenience and mobility, I need an over-priced UNDER performing ONLY MADE in a a few places in ASIA LCD, like our CEO needs another bonus, and HE DOESN'T. They've been trying like crazy for several years now to convince people that LCD is 'DIGITAL' and there fore somehow better than a CRT...

Re:Pipe dreams...

[Anonymous Coward]

"ONLY MADE in a a few places in ASIA"

Yeah, its real important to me how many places things are made. I make it a point to only buy something if it's made in 15 places. 20 actually. At least. But not Asia - no siree. I`m not racist, I just......don't like 'em. No sir.

Why all the anti laptop hubbub?

[Anonymous Coward]

We are acting like desktop luddites.
Fact is LCD and Laptop sales have become a significant part of the market. It is not good or bad, and it doesn't matter if its almost true, mostly true or really true, it just is.
But why make fun of laptops? The vast majority of the market (not me) thinks 1024x768 is fine. The vast majority of the market just does Word and cruises the web.
I guess I don't understand the negative comments about something to which it is hard to attach a moral value.

AC morons

[Archfeld]

It wasn't a racist comment, it was a market monopoly comment as well as a poke the contries complaining the most about computer waste that are also the ones manufacturing and pushing for a change which will generate 100 times more computer waste while actually advancing only a small space savings. As for a racisit, you IGNORANT AC there is my heinous racist tendency, AC's are spineless inbred genetic defects not capable of backing up their pointless vocal vomit, and too scared to commit to a name and be called on it, so crawl back under a rock and pretend mommy still loves you...

Re:get both in one package.

[Anonymous Coward]

fg engineering
minipc.ca
miniitx