Slashdot Mirror
Apple-Quality Intel Laptops?
arashiakari asks: "I have to buy a new laptop soon and I am having trouble settling on a brand or model except one that I cannot use. Apple's iBook laptop is beautiful, functional, lightweight, and made of high quality materials. I would buy one today except that I am a professional programmer and MUST use the same platform my compiler targets: Intel. So far each Intel-based laptop I have looked at is both grossly over-decorated (Compaq, Toshiba) and made of cheap flimsy materials (Dell), or has the combined problem of being overpriced and under-powered - with external bays for everything (Sony). IBM is expensive, but they are as close as I've found to "right" ... with Toshiba in second place. It seems like Intel-based laptops are either hot ugly tanks or oversized PDAs, there seems to be a scarcity of balanced well-thought-out and produced machines. Does the Slashdot have any suggestions?"
Will an intel emulator work? Something such as virtual pc? I know you can use the commercial product for Mac's called codewarrior that is able to compile for intel. You'd still need some kind of emulator to test it though. Has anyone else done this?
/* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
Get a job developing for macs.
Problem solved.
I do all of my development on my IBM Thinkpad T23, with built-in wireless and Ethernet. It is a workhorse and has not let me down. IBM is a great company with excellent support for their products.
-
There's a rule to follow: "Thou shalt lust after no other laptop than an IBM Thinkpad."
I've owned three of them, and all have been really great computers. I've owned other laptops, and they failed to measure up to the standard set by the Thinkpad.
My current machine is an A21m with 800mhz Pentium III, running Linux. All the hardware on the machine works with Linux. I have use it every day for work for the past 2.5 years, and it's just plain reliable. It's worth the money I paid for it, and I've noticed that the prices have dropped a lot. You can get a Thinkpad for much much less than what I paid for mine.
My next laptop will be an IBM Thinkpad.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
IBM laptops win my vote for having the best ballance of quality, features, performance, portability, sturdiness, and design. Yes, this all comes at a higher price but if you look, it's about the same or less than the equivalent Apple gear. Moreover, amazingly the prices did go down compared to say 2 years ago. I remember there was no way to get a T-series Thinkpad for under $2000 and it still would be stripped down unless you get a $3000. These days you can buy a well configured T-series Thinkpad for under $2000 or you could opt for an cheaper R-series and pay the prices pretty much in Apple's 12inch iBook range for it (excapt that you'd get a better screen and much faster CPU)
Which Compaqs have you looked at? I agree that their consumer/home versions are pretty cheesy looking.
We use the Evo N800c model at work. They look professional, are very reliable, and work with everything we've tried. We've been all Compaq except laptops up until the past year (IBM Thinkpads). Once I saw the newer Evo notebooks, we switched over to the Compaq laptops as well. The IBM's were great too, just pricey as you said. I don't even normally put my Compaq in a case unless I need extra peripherals or are traveling very far with it. It's pretty sturdy.
Before Thinkpads, we used all Toshibas. They were great a few years ago. I think their build-quality and reliability has gone down though, at least based on the ones we've bought.
Jason
"FORMAT C:" - Kills bugs dead!
What I've always liked about Apple's notebooks is their ability to make the right compromises between size, weight, cost, speed, expandability, etc. I'm not saying they're perfect, but I agree with you that they're usually a lot better thought out than most of the wintel notebooks out there. You're better off asking yourself what your priorities are in a portable machine, and then picking a box that was built with the same priorities as you. As you said, the VAIO line is well designed, but often lacks features and speed. Do you need that extra speed? If you're looking for a devel machine then maybe you should just bite the bullet and buy a chunkier box.
Another poster suggested testing your apps in VPC on the Mac, but I think a virtual machine is the last place you want to be debugging test code. Any chance you could move to high level development? That way the test platform wouldn't really matter, just use your OO language of choice.
Don't knock HTML email. It makes my life easier, since I
Another vote for IBM. I'm currently on a T30 and had a T23 before this. I use my TP 24/7 and it never gets turned off. It gets a ton of use, not just sitting idle. It never crashes or dies. Should you have a hardware issue you'll have it back to you in 48 hours. They aren't the cheapest, but you get what you pay for.
:)
I couldn't work without my notebook...and I'm not giving up this T30 for anything...but maybe a T40.
I was roughly on the same quest as you a year ago. I spent too much time searching for online product reviews that it eventually crush my head. I decided to go to a local computer mall, and browse around the products that I've reviewed online. The product that I actually picked was none of that I thought was good (based on the reviews), it was a Fujitsu Lifebook S Series (6010); as I expected it's the closest thing that can come to iBook's quality, screen is definetly the best of all other notebooks I've used (Dell, Compaq, Toshiba, Vaio, Acer, Gateway, etc), the magnesium alloy screen cover is very solid. And oh, it has a superdrive--the same one used in ibooks!
All in all, it's the tiny bits of design detail that catch my attention on this well built pc, fujitsu actually manufacture it themselve in Japan, unlike others that usually outsource their production line to taiwan.
I would suggest you to go and check out the physical product yourself, ask for a live demo, try launching programs, use the disk, connect to an external mouse just like how you'd use the computer; a 20 minute of physical test is much better then a 2 weeks of reading online reviews.
Sharp Mebius Muramasa It is smaller and lighter than Apple's brick. It runs on Transmeta so you can get geek points too.
Panasonic Let's Note Again, smaller and lighter than Apple's iBrick.
It continues to amaze me that people look at the iBook as some kind of zenith of hardware design when it is bigger, heavier, and has only one mouse button compared to the Windows-based alternatives. I guess if you are comparing the Apple to an IBM or Dell laptop you'd have a point but with all sorts of more stylishly designed laptops than those available you'd be hard pressed to claim that Apple is leading in the field.
I have been pwned because my
I'm using an iBook right now. It's great.
It sure won't build Intel binaries though.
ThinkPad. Used a borrowed one for a little while.
Not as sexy as an iBook. Who'd root a laptop anyway?
Very solid machine the ol' ThinkPad.
I'd seriously consider buying one when the iBook retires.
Now wash your hands.
I've had several over the years, and they are excellent. Even better, IBM semi-officially supports Linux on the models that I've owned...
(I.e. there are FAQs on IBM's support site discussing how to run Linux on the models I've used.)
I've had on the whole positive experiences with both Fujitsu and Sharp. (I've linked to the latest models, not the ones I've used.) They may not be titanium, but they're solid and not overly bloated.
With all the big names flying around, have you considered an Alienware machine? They're not the lightest in the world but they look to be fairly high quality.
They bill for games, but performance is performance.
They have some nice-looking laptops - especially their new Centrino-based model.
I think you can even make binaries for windows with a mingw crosscompiler... Thank god for GCC!
I was in the same boat you are in now and I chose the ibook, it's sweet, but I also needed to program for the intel platform. I bought a second machine ( a beefy workstation ) and I rdesktop into that fullscreen to do my programming. It works very great even over a wan if the bandwitdh is there. Get the ibook you won't regret it.
"Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."
I researched what was available pretty extensively, and chose an IBM Thinkpad G40.
I wanted something powerful, but this was for home, so price was very much a consideration. I looked hard at a couple of Toshiba's, and at the Dell range, but the IBM came in at a slightly lower price for the features I wanted, and I know from experience that Thinkpads are high quality. I did also look at the iBooks, but the prices were way too high for the feature set.
For what it's worth, I wanted 40 Gb / 512 Mb/ DVD/CR-RW combo / 15" screen / XP Pro / 2 GHz or better processor. Size / Weight / battery life weren't an issue. The G40 I bought has a 2.4 GHz processor. Unlike most Thinkpads, it doesn't have removable drives. I was willing to cut the iBook some slack on processor speed (although the ones I tried in store were very slow; they were short on RAM as displayed).
Relative price probably varies from country to country, and month to month, so if you live in a different country from me (probable), and since my purchase was a month ago, you might find something else works better for you.
Or did you pay extra for the luxury of having that usable mouse?
Sager laptop owner forums
Sager reseller
It may be a somewhat unknown brand, but I have been totally blown away with it. Check out the specs and the forums.
and make that Toshiba laptop look nice and shiney.
To disguise the bloated thickness: carefully modify a cushion to hide the thickness and use this when using in public.
Alternatve plan: Find a big Apple sticker and stick it on. You will find that the machine instantly loses 5 pounds.
http://www.vprmatrix.com/products_notebook_200A5.a sp
--
"we live in a post-ideological world..." - Billy Bragg.
if it really has to be solid gear there is no substitute for the real deal. /. like in this article a while back
(rugged laptops have been mentioned a lot here on
Now apple does make some very nice sturdy ibooks and some very nice looking titaniums.
And that it can withstand all the chaos and abuse those weird apple-addicts throw at it deserves some respect,
But these babies,... these babies are _made_ for rock and roll!
What you need is an x86 emulator! There is nothing quite so beautiful to behold (and sturdy, hardworking, and reliable) as the iBook. It's just the only way to go!
The thing you have to do is understand why IBM and Apple are at the top of their markets.
One reason...they build their own Notebooks...take a look at this page and then you'll understand why...
The short answer is Alienware, Toshiba, Dell, Compaq, etc are all made by the same companies...chances are they are all the same laptop.
Sony, IBM, and Apple all used to design their own notebooks...Apple kind of has to (yet they still use ODMs to assemble their boxen), and Sony and IBM have started to slip recently (using some of Quanta's ODM systems).
But if you want to find out how good the notebook is, find out who really made it.
Of course, you can always buy from the site that I linked to. They will sell notebooks without an OS and even have a Linux Forum. Not to mention they have unmatched customer service.
Let's be serious here, Apple laptops aren't all that durable. Two of my friends have had the screens break, one in a bookbag and one in a laptop bag. With a few exceptions, I'd say the average laptop now is a lot less durable than 10 years ago.
I've picked up two used Panasonic Toughbooks on eBay and they've been attention-getters ever since. How many laptops can you stand on, throw across the room, use as hammers, and use in the rain, all while your favorite mp3s are playing?
I'm a big form-follows-function guy. The Toughbooks are all black, magnesium alloy with rubber covers over the ports. They're elegant in the same way a Beretta pistol is a work of art.
I've taken to keeping my Tougbook in a bag lately, not to protect it from the outside world, but to protect the outside world from it. The rubber feet came off the bottom some time ago, and the metal case has a tendency to mar floors if I drop it. I do that sometimes just for effect.
I presently own two Toughbooks: a CF-25, which is a full-size machine (comparable to any other laptop). It's a Pentium 150 with a nice comfy keyboard, 1024x768 screen behind a polycarbonate sheet, three(!) PCMCIA slots, and a gel pad surrounding the hard drive, which I upgraded from 4 gig to 10. The lack of CardBus and USB finally forced me to upgrade to my present machine, which is a...
CF-17, a Celeron 300 subnotebook. It's petite, the (touch)screen is only 800x600, and the keyboard takes some getting used to. With 128 meg and the 20 gig drive I dropped in it, it's more power than I need. (My desktop is only a 300MHz machine, for comparison.) It's got a single USB1.1 port, and I occasionally stick a 480Mb/s "hi speed" USB card in the slot when I need to use an external burner.
There are of course more recent Toughbook models, up to Pentium III and probably faster, but my budget and needs are more modest. Lately Panasonic's come out with a few "semi"-rugged models, which translates to "beats the crap out of your Dell, but won't survive a 10' drop onto concrete like the others". They're worth looking into if you're not the type to occasionally toss a load of 2x4's into your truck without noticing the laptop sitting there.
P.S. I'm not affiliated with Panasonic in any way, just a loyal customer. I could've probably sold a dozen of these machines to people who've been impressed by mine, I should see about becoming a dealer.
I just picked up their NX-8640 and I've been
VERY impressed. There is also the added benefit of
being able to buy without an OS installed.
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
We got rid of the guy where I work who insisted on using a Mac on his desktop. Because, while that alone really wasn't an issue, it was a symptom of a contrarian crank, who was never going to be easy for anybody to work with.
Think Different indeed.
I work in a shop that sees a ton of desktop's and laptops alike, and the only ones I never see for hardware problems are the Thinkpads. I personally use a beefed up T20 w/a 900MHz PIII and a DVD/CDRW drive, and I couldn't imagine using another laptop (besides the 15" TiBook I lust over). They're built like tanks. I dropped my TP 600 prior to this one about 5 times from 4 feet up before I gave it to my mom. She still uses it for school. Just avoid the i series. They're built like compaqs.
You never have to develop for any platform that you don't like! You lucky dog! But some of us live in the real world.
... was in the same situation. On pricewatch, he found a notebook from MicroPro, with a 2500+ (socketed no less), a 333Mhz fsb, Mobile Radeon 9000 64DDR, 60gig HD, and a really nice 15 inch screen. And if you go to pricewatch, and search for "MicroNote Professional 530", you can get it for under $1,200 dollars. It doesn't get the best battery life (around 2 hours and 10 minutes under normal use), and it's feels almost twice as heavy as my ibook, but it's a very cool machine.
There are some things I don't like about it though. Of course this machine has some very hot components. At the bottom, there is a large intake just under the CPU, with a solid copper heat sink and heat pipes that bring it to the left side of the notebook, with a turbine to help it along. For this reason, you can't keep it on your lap (both legs) without blocking the airflow. This doesn't seem like a big deal, but if you put your hand next to the vent on the left, you can feel that the air is really hot.
I wouldn't recommend it if you are looking for an extremely mobile notebook, but if you want one of the most powerful notebooks in production for under $1,200, click here for details. Remember, you get a special deal if you buy it through pricewatch (about $222 I think). If you want any more details, ask me, or him.
If you are just targetting Intel processors with open source tools, you shouldn't have any problems. If you need to target a non-gnu platform, however, well then you need a really good laptop to compensate for the hassles.
I was fairly satisfied with a Sony VAIO that a previous employer insisted on paying too much for. (I submitted the specs for an iBook, but they insisted on spending more money) Of course it not only cost more, but ended up needing repairs more often.
I bought an iBook on my own, but really haven't seen a PC laptop that I would buy on my own yet.
My advise is to concentrate on the features you most like in a PowerBook/iBook. Is it the display? The ports? General durability? Running a GUI desktop and a Unix shell at the same time?
If the latter is a factor, as in you might want to do some network analysis in the field, then you want to pre-validate that the laptop you're looking at can be partitioned and dual-booted with either Linux or BSD.
Yes, you know your own answer. You just posted on slashdot to get affirmation.
Don't even think about anything else. I have owned/operated a ton of them. Except for the 600 series and their infamous battery problems, IBM laptops are nearly perfect. They do generally have weaker graphics systems then their counterpart, but I have never really had to use the latest graphics or anything like that. However, they invest a lot of money on design: I love their trackpoint. Remember, they were the first company to implement them. Now, it seems most companies offer that option. IMHO, a trackpoint is much easier to use then a heat and/or pressure sensitive input device.
If you need a clean looking, high performing, low mantainence, ergonomic keyboard and mice, IBM is the answer. WARNING: if you need the latest and greatest graphics, IBM is NOT your answer.
now supporting:
cmdrTaco for president '04
michael for oval office intern summer '05
Please...
I bought a P2110 a year or so ago, and it was the best laptop I have ever owned (albeit a little slow.) Their laptops tend to use magnesium over cheap, flimsy plastic (dell, the 8100 -- piece of junk) and are well put together, all at a reasonable price. I recently purchased a P5010D, which is almost as good quality as the P2110.
If you want to spend money, and not on two fujitsu laptops, go with IBM. They use decent plastic and good designs. They are some of the more intelligently designed laptops out there, and have been hardy tools for me in the past.
However, you should be able to find a comparable and cheaper machine in its lower-end brother, the D500.
The man said he was going to develop on Intel, he didn't say windows.
Can I get an eye poke?
Dog House Forum
After all, just like the Slashdot ad says, Oracle makes laptops unbreakable.
I recommend the IBM Thinkpad as well. I hated laptops but I have just spent two years using a 600X and it has made a convert out of me. I just bought a certified pre-owned T30 of my own from the IBM web site.
My only real complaint is that I didn't get the !@#$% CDROMs for the Windows XP that is installed on it. You are supposed to be satisfied with the recovery partition. The story is if you have a problem with the recovery partition, and the system is under warranty, IBM will fix it ASAP. What I want to know is what am I supposed to do if it's 2:00 in the morning or if the unit is no longer under warranty?
Also, it is possible for the system to get to the point where you can't boot to access the recovery partition. In that case you are supposed to use a recovery floppy - except there is no floppy drive on the system and there's no documentation on what to put on a bootable CDROM (the floppy is built by some utility)!
Even if I wanted to pay for it twice and I bought a retail copy of XP I still lose because now I don't have the IBM-specific drivers and utilities.
Of course, IBM is not the company sticking it to people here, that "honor" belongs to Microsoft and their utterly delusional paranoia that someone might steal a copy of Windows. You can hardly get a PC that doesn't come with Windows and by the time a new version of Windows comes out your hardware that is running the previous version is obsolete so there is very little reason to actually steal Windows.
I am also a professional programmer, so I can relate to your worries about development restrictions on a non-PC platform. I've been running VirtualPC on my second-hand TiBook for awhile now, and I can testify that it works quite well for PC development purposes.
...I find I write better code on trailing-edge hardware, because any speed issues become extremely obvious where the same code would SEEM fine on my Athlon box.
;-)
:-). Check out the Connectix web site if you're interested in more info.
On a 667 Mhz laptop, i can use visual studio without complaints. Yes, it's slower than it would be on a P4 notebook. Let me tell you why I don't care: optimization!
But then again, maybe I'm a maniac.
Anyway, based on my experience, I'd suggest that you not rule Apple out yet... Unless you're doing hardware drivers or video games, the emulation won't be a huge issue... And the reliability and design on these laptops are almost everything the zealots say they are
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.
Virtual PC emulates an Intel based PC. Unless you actually install Windows, it has nothing to do with it, and you can install almost any other OS instead.
There are exceptions, but that simply has to do with the OS not having drivers for the specific "hardware" Virtual PC emulates.
You said you like their laptops, but they are expensive, so you might want to check it out. They sell both new and factory refurbished stuff there.
Nothing to see here; Move along.
I just bought an IBM Thinkpad R40 a couple months ago, and all I can say is it's great. Works wonderfully out of the box with Linux and FreeBSD, is very fast (Pentium M), great battery life (around 4-5 hours), very nice screen, and great construction. I've been impressed. It's a big step up from my previous Compaq Presario, and not significantly more expensive.
-- "Big Brother is Watching..."
Next question . . .
I've had a couple of Dells supplied by my employers over the last few years. In fact, I have one now. All of them have one thing in common... they suck. Drop them once, and it's pretty much guaranteed to break. Batteries rarely last me more than 9 months. And the sheer number of repairs I've seen our helpdesk have to do on them is insane (weird that the sony's never had hardware randomly fail unless dropped).
Personally, I like the IBM's, even though they are ugly. HP Omnibook was a sweet little slimtop, but I don't think they make it anymore. My roomie has one and it's quite nice.
Personally, out of all of the laptops I have now, and all that I've had in the past, my iBook is by far the nicest. Great battery life, and it contrary to what some have said, it does take a beating. I'll be getting a 12" powerbook to replace my aging iBook. But for work, I'm stuck with a crappy dell, and sadly, it's one of their top of the line ones.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
Your loss, his gain.
If you're looking for durable, go with the GoBook MAX. It's made out of very tough materials and you can just hose it down if it gets dirty. Otherwise, I can't help you since I bought a PowerBook.
Ouch! The truth hurts!
I have an Compaq armada M700, with a 766 processor,256Ram. Like the IBM pal up there, "it never let me down" too. I have RH8 linux on it, and its so reliable. No problem with the hardware, the materials used are good (not excellent, but good)...
Though i think the Thinkpad is better though(havent owned one, but i tried it, and its quite good.)
The lunatic is in my head
I'm own an Alienware Laptop, Area51m. If you compare prices around, you will see it is a really good deal if you want a powerful laptop. The tech support is great (they don't treat you like a moron or anything, and very helpful). The case itself doesn't feel very sturdy, but, i have been using mine for a year (yes, i was an early adopter), and I haven't have any problems. The only problem is the weight, it is almost 10 pounds (yikes). If you are looking for a very powerul desktop that looks like a laptop, it is a very good option.
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
I have a friend with a titanium...the case surrounding the LCD is flimsy and isn't stiff enough to support the screen. It's fairly easy to break the screen (which is quite expensive to replace).
May we never see th
You're an Apple zealot recommending a Microsoft product? :-)
Seriously, I agree with the "give programmers slow computers" bit. To get the best code, give 'em slower computers with lots of fancy add-ons (multiple monitors, etc) so that you get efficient code that properly supports everything.
May we never see th
Initially, after loading the page and clicking on the "Custom Configuration" tab, here are the prices I saw:
Now, without changing any of the drop-down boxes below, I clicked on the "recalculate" button, and here's what I saw:
Hmm. Fishy. It's nice that they allow me to customize the laptop, but if I end up having to pay more than $1200 extra for the benefit of customizing it, is it really worth it? Has anyone else run into this problem?
Super ninja monkeys will one day rule the world!
I just thought I would throw in my two cents and also vote for the Thinkpad. I've administered well over 25 of them and continue to recommend them over just about any other laptop on the market. They are simply more well-built than pretty much every other laptop out there.
;)
For the people who are saying Thinkpads are too expensive, I just got word of a deal today on the Thinkpad T40. This is from PC Connection, which is an IBM reseller. (I don't work there, but my friend has a business account with them.) This deal just came in today: Thinkpad T40 for $1149
If you do order from PC Connection, call and ask for Terri and she may be able to get you a little better of a deal than what is on the website. I tell you, if I had the money, I'd be buying a Thinkpad from them right now... but I don't, so I leave this gem of a deal for the rest of you to fight over.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
Well.. I use IBM ThinkPad R32.
The size of it is just right. The performance, 1.7Ghz Mobile Pentium 4, is just good.
Among american products, except for the Apple's, IBM seems to be the best. Dell can be good. But if you have an eye for products, it doesn't seem to be so good one. However AS of Dell is good. Gateway's is too heavy usually.
However, there is some problem with IBM's ThinkPad.
1. User support doesn't seem to be as good as that of Apple.
2. ThinkPad seems to be weak to overheating. (I didn't compare it with other x86 notebooks, though. )
When Windows crashes while it's being hibernated or shutdown, which happens often, it can be overheated in a crarrying case. Actually if you don't put it nto a carrying case then it's ok. But I think it would be better that IBM engineers provide solution to this problem. Some kind of independecy on MS Windows problem.
Anyway, once overheating happens, sometimes response of Windows can be very very slow. (of course, the temperature is normal now. ), crashes more often.
3. Strangely the video component malfunctions sometimes when WMP plays some video files.
etc, etc.
However, if you should develop programs for Windows platform, I will recommend the ThinkPad.
Sony's notebook is not so good as it looks.
The network component usually has problems, etc.
and get an extended warranty. Actually, get the warranty no matter what you buy. FWIW, when you work with enough of any brand of laptop, you'll see lots of failures - and I've worked at large Mac, Toshiba, Compaq, Dell, and IBM shops.
http://www.vprmatrix.com/products_notebook_200A5.a sp
Just this weekend, I had the chance to see my brother-and-law's new 12" Apple powerbook. I don't agree with the BSD license, I think the prices Apple is asking for its software are insane, and the think took forever to boot, but oh my God was it beautiful. The whole machine gives the impression that somebody actually sat down and thought about how the thing would be used, instead of sort of throwing the pieces together on the basis of what is the least expensive.
I can't see buying a desktop computer from Apple -- standard x86 parts and Linux serve me too well for so little -- but if our laptop were fall on the floor, a total write off, destroyed, shattered into a thousand pieces, I'd think very seriously about an iBook. If you want something like an Apple, get an Apple.
I'd say more, but without personal EM-shielding the flames will hurt :(
To get the best of two worlds, buy an iBook and Virtual PC.
Recent releases of Virtual PC are working amazingly well. Yes, it's an emulation, but no, it's not slow. Visual Studio runs flawlessly if this is what you need.
{{.sig}}
The Evo N800c is, IMHO, one of the worst laptop designs ever for people who do any sort of field work.
Sure, the screen is great, it's fast, etc, but the metal rim around the touchpad is hideous and it has two major design flaws:
The upshot of this is that it is only too easy to short-circuit your laptop on a dirty or cluttered desk (a few drops of liquid or a paper clip have been known to do the trick).
My colleagues have dumped the docks, harrassed Purchasing for USB-to-Serial adapters and sealed the dock connector with waterproof-glue duct tape.
There's PC industrial design for you.
Oh, and we have no end of trouble trying to run Linux on the darn things, too.
Reading around it even looks like there are those at Microsoft who've considered getting a powerbook too
With a wireless network, RemoteDesktop/VNC you can access any other PC resources you need.
Now you only have to convince your boss. Good Luck!
I would buy one today except that I am a professional programmer and MUST use the same platform my compiler targets: Intel.
/. crowd - which is understandable). Have you thought about getting a mac and using Virtual PC? Performance would suck a bit, but surely it would be worth it so that you'd have a Mac? :-)
I take it there must be some good reason why you can't use a cross compiler (like you're using Microsoft Dev Studio and you don't want to admit it to the
Tk
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
I cannot say the same. The paint job is not quite up to the standard of Sony's. They frquently chip off and I have seen that on a few Fujitsu notebooks.
I have an Evo n800c. It came with a rubber dohickey jammed in the expansion bay, i find this effectively bars paper clips from causing problems. This is an improvement over previous Compaq laptops where the expansion bay was on the back, with no possibility of covering it.
The lack of serial ports is not necessarily a design flaw. There is only so much room on the back of the device, so compaq dropped the serial port. If you need a serial terminal, you should be able to find a large number of _really_ old laptops with serial ports that are capable of running miniterm (or whatever suits your fancy), for instance, I've got two laptops with 386s that make great serial terminals.
Need a Catering Connection
oops, forgot to comment on running linux on them.
I had no significant trouble running Linux on my evo n800c. I installed debian (using vmware to avoid making a boot cd), upgraded to unstable, compiled the kernel with vesa framebuffer support, and went from there. Yes, ACPI is broken, that's what you get from Compaq... there are fairly simple ways to fix that. You can also choose to use the radeon drivers for X, but there are some issues with closing the lid then (i think those are fixable too, i just didn't care).
Need a Catering Connection
Linux runs fine on ours (Debian). We also use the USB-Serial converters.
Jason
"FORMAT C:" - Kills bugs dead!
2. Become a stockholder. Stockholders also get access to discounts.
3. eBay. The IBM store on eBay has some sweet deals.
If you save enough money you can go out and buy a cheap iBook as well. Have the best of both worlds.
Lasers Controlled Games!
DELL Laptops SUCK! Please don't ever buy one.
My P2-233 is still faster than the piece of junk 600MHz I bought from them.
The acer tm800 is much under rated as a laptop, we pay ~2700 AUS$ ~ $1500US for a 1.3Mhz Pentium Processor M rpoicess 512Mb ram, and a DVD/CD writre combo drive, with wireless etc.
All in all not a bad laptop for the price.
I currently use an Acer TM610, and its great, I love it
We weren't making sand candles or incense.
Are you writing device drivers or applications?
Yes, it's big and heavy.
But it's got EVERYTHING internal (no need for external bays) and a beautiful 15" screen with resolution that is far higher than Apple's 15" laptop LCDs. Runs every game I have quite well.
It's an Inspiron 8200. Yes, it's not the most portable, but Dell's primary market is businesses. It doesn't matter if the unit is a little heavy if a bulk of your "traveling" is from your cube to the conference room. (Or in the case of where I work, half of the engineers have Dells that move between the docking station on their desk and the benchtop in the lab multiple times per day.)
That said - If you have the money, Thinkpads are the way to go. They are the most durable laptops on the market by far. (Unless you go into the "ruggedized" market, where units like the Panasonic Toughbook reign supreme.) If cost is an issue, Dell makes excellent laptops, especially the Inspiron 8000 series.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I used to work in a computer sales center.
Compaq consistently has the worst quality rep of any PC manufacturer. (Except Packard Smell... Thank God they're gone. Even eMachines is better than Compaq.) We routinely had Compaq laptops come in for service with displays that had simply stopped working.
Toshiba used to be excellent, but like you, I've heard that they've gone downhill over the past few years.
Dell's quality seems to oscillate every few years. Back when I was in school, all of their laptops and desktops were utter shite. The desktops we've been getting at work lately have had AMAZING build quality and impressive design. (The latest ones, at least the latest Precisions, have completely screwless designs and quite well designed ducted cooling.) I have an Inspiron 8200 and it's one of the best laptops I've ever used. The only complaint I have about it is the lack of a display blanking key, a feature I miss from my old TI Travelmate 7100.
Sony Vaios seem to always be overpriced and have all of their accessories external.
IBM Thinkpads are also pricey, but well worth the money if you can afford them. Thinkpads are built like tanks. We NEVER had a Thinkpad less than 4-5 years old come in for service at my campus store when I worked there, and those that did come in after 4-5 years of life were mostly in because of software problems.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Unless they've changed, Alienware is one of those manufacturers that sticks a desktop version of the P4 into their machines. ALL of them. I know the Area 51m is such a machine.
i.e. say goodbye to battery life and good thermal performance.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Very sweet stuff at cheap prices.
Power Notebooks
Someone else linked to them the other day on slashdot and I was very impressed. Especially the 17" one for $1700 !!! That's only $300 more than I paid for my 900MHz iBook 12.1"!!!!
I work for Dell :(
Now that I have that out of the way, you should look at the Latitude C640. That thing is a rock, just about the right size and you can upgrade the heck out of it. Then again, when I goto Fry's, I drool over those iBooks, but they are a bit out of range for me.
The IBM thinkpads I've seen all belonged to friends of mine. They were pretty old(circa 1996), but sturdy and still alive and kicking.
What, me Tweet?
I won't repeat the things others have said about laptops from both Apple and IBM, although I will give you a few anecdotes:
1) I'm an IT guy for a small medical company. Every so often we pick up used laptops for cheap -- we're an NGO, so that counts as an in-kind donation -- and usually, they're IBM's. Crazier still, these laptops that were build sometimes close to a DECADE ago still work fine, and their screens have no burned-out pixels. I hate Windows at this point (having made the switch to Mac OSX and Linux, and never looked back), but if you have no choice about using an intel-based laptop, go with IBM. Also, IBM is one of the few laptop makers that put the OS in some kind of internal rom, so that if the system crashes on one of the laptops without a CD Rom drive, you can use the bios to reinstall the OS without external media.
2) iBooks rock. I own two. I bought the first one after watching a friend accidentally knock his out a second story window and onto pavement. The battery shot out, but when he put the battery back in and dusted it off the only problem it had was a number of new scratches on the outside. Yes, they're really that durable. However, my new iBook 800 just had its modem port die, and it's just over 6 months old.
Also, using Virtual PC is a perfect way of having a sturdy laptop and a decent OS (I installed it specifically for KazAa...), but I don't recommend running it on any iBook, period, regardless of what the docs say. You absolutely need a G4. Period. If you're doing development, the slowness of VPC on a G3 under OS X will amaze you.
Lastly, Apple has worldwide coverage on their laptops if you opt for the extra 250$ AppleCare plan (3 years). Myself, I bought both iBooks in the states and am moving to Japan in a month, which happens to have apple stores in Tokyo, so I'm very excited about this. I don't know what IBM has in the way of warranties, but I've been to their office in Makuhari in Japan and I know they're pretty much established worldwide as well.
- Cloud
http://www.eurocom.ca
..
'Nuf said
I just purchased a 12" iBook last week. I can't stand the bloody thing. The Apple store that kindly installed the extra 512 MB RAM (to make up for the pathetic 128 that it comes with) and the airport card managed to strip screws inside as well.
The thing is just a toy. It's a toy laptop that pretends to be a real computer. It's made of plastic and the world's lightest metal, which just so happens to be the world's weakest metal as well, as evidenced by the Apple store's great care of the internal screws.
It's been an unfortunate 12 days, and now I can't even send it back because they have a whopping 10 day return policy. 10 days? Even Dell provides 30. I feel completely ripped off because I don't like using the damned thing and can't get rid of it.
If anyone wants a 12 day old 900 MHz iBook with 640 MB RAM, Airport, 40 GB hard drive, and the original packaging, all on the cheap, let me know. Otherwise, it's off to eBay with this thing. I'm willing to let it go for three or four hundred less than what I paid at this point. I can get an Intel laptop that I'd be a lot more comfortable with for that anyway. No offense to any Apple fans. I just can't use the thing.
I've been comparing notebooks for some time and decided for a Dell Inspiron 8500 with WUXGA display. I put Red Hat 9.0 on it and all I can say is: That thing rocks!!! The display resolution(1920x1200) is awesome and the quality of the display is better than anything I've seen before.
I paid something like $1600 after the instant rebate and after I insisted that I wanted the machine without Windows bundled and won't pay for it they gave me a $100 merchandise credit. That's how things are supposed to be! I've put Red Hat 9.0 on it and now I have a notebook that absolutely rocks for an optimal performance/price ratio. I haven't had any problems with it so far and do I care if the case is made of plastic instead of brushed magnesium or whatever? no!
As someone who used to work in HP's mobile computing division, I would agree, but only to a point. The Quanta made HP's were/are great machines. Some of the Compal stuff was crap. The best price / quality stuff was codenamed "Zinfandel". I think that is marketed as the 'z' series. Good stuff.
Jumpin jeesuz on a pogo stick - the iBook is made from excellent materials? Hello, are you insane? Its made out of friggin PLASTIC, just like everyother laptop out there. Idiot, you don't deserve an intel-based laptop - go buy your crappy CrapInTosh i-Crook CrapTop 'computer', its made just for shitforbrains just like you.
And there's no shortage of jobs to choose from!
Or you can do what I did, and just buy a USB->serial adapter. They're cheap and plentiful, and let's face facts... USB ports are much more useful than serial ports for 99% of the purchasers.
I use a full three button mouse with my Powerbook when it's docked.
However, using a laptop standalone I really prefer having one mouse button. I find it a lot easier to chord the mouse button using keys than constantly having my thumb reach for an annoyingly placeed second button, or hitting one when I meant to hit the other (which is what happens when both are convieniently placed).
Seriously, even Windows laptops could benefit by just having one button and chording the others.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Are they really as cheap and flimsy as all that? Based on previous happy experiences with Dell workstations, I've recommended their laptops to friends, and now I fear my ass is on the line. :)
Oh well, that's what I get for trying to look omniscient.
- undoware.ca
That would make perfect sense. My recommendation was made based off the fact myself and two friends have all had a great experience with our Pavilion ze5170 notebooks. I bought one last year and made them switch too. The only downside is that at the time it was standard to use desktop CPUs in notebooks :P.
CodeWarrior can target for Intel, and is available for Mac and PC... So buy the Mac you want and get CodeWarrior... if you need to test it on the Mac boot up VirtualPC.
*Disclaimer* I am an IBM employee.
Having said that I always recommend a Thinkpad, even though I didn't work for them before. Okay, they may be black, they may be builky, but the screen is really nice and probably the best keyboard in the market. Most of the laptop are pretty much 90% Intel but then it is all those little touches that count. You should have a look at the 15" screen that exists on A series thinkpad...... They are nice (I am using it to write this reply!)
I and using a A31 at the moment that I've got from EPP (IBM's employee purchase plan)... The price is okay but due to the UK tax law here they can't offer employees much better than most shops out there. My previous laptop is a A20m and I have abused it for 3 years (literatlly - dropping it on the floor, breaking the USB connector, etc). There are cracks and stuff but everything still works great as day one when I passed it onto my cousin.
I may be biased, but trust me, IBM Thinkpad is probably the most durable ones you can find out there.
Linux runs on both systems, and you can cross compile. So really, what is the problem with buying a Mac?
Microsoft Works
Slashdot Grammar
Military Intelligence
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Not necessarily the most well known brand, but definitely high quality and an excellent price/performance ratio. Have been using one for about a month now and really have no complaints.
Besides, Where else can you get a brand new centrino for a base price of 1300usd? And did I mention that it does 1400x1050..
Try their website here. I think that at least www.rjtech.com sells them in usa and you can configure it to be pretty much what you want.
You get what you pay for... I've been a fan of Thinkpads for a long time. They're very sturdy (for laptops) and last forever if you don't drop them on the driveway too many times :)
Their prices have come down recently... you can get a pretty good system for about $2000 and a fully-tricked-out monster for around $3000. When you consider the relative power of the newer Intel mobile chips, this is a bargain compared to Apple's offerings.
The thinkpad hardware seems quite standardized these days. I know guys who got Linux and FreeBSD running on theirs (either stand-alone or dual-boot with Windows) with minimal trouble.
The R series (one of the newer lines) doesn't seem as sturdy or robust as the A and T series. The T series is their "corporate" line, and they last forever... they cost a little more for the same features but they're lighter, more compact, and more rugged.
I have an A22p that I bought in 2001... The dog has knocked it off the coffee table about a dozen times and it's no worse for wear. A couple of the screws that hold the LCD into the back of the computer got a little loose after about a year, but I tightened them down and haven't had any further issues.
Definitely stay away from Sony and Dell... Sony's are notorious for hardware incompatibility issues and both Sony's and Dells are rather delicate, particularly the "consumer-grade" models.
One note... I paid a couple hundred dollars extra for the 1600x1200 15" screen on my laptop. There are two problems with this... First, running at 1600x1200 I can't read text on the screen anymore unless I use "fonts for the blind". Second, the box is just a little too big to comfortably fit into most laptop bags. It squeezes into my Targus (?) laptop backpack, but barely, and I had to remove some of the protective foam from the top and bottom to get him in there.
Another tip: choose a laptop that has an "accessory bay" that can accept a second battery (to suppliment the main battery). These are very handy on long trips or long progress meetings. Mine gives me about an extra 2.5 hours of battery life. Some of the Dells and others can actually take *2* extra batteries, if you're willing to lug around the extra weight.
Good luck!
It was solved by buying a cheap iBook (which is now, by far, my favorite computer), and using Remote Desktop Connection to operate a desktop Win-XP Pro PC.
Microsoft bashing aside, RDP works well enough for me, and it solved my problem perfectly too: badass Intel/AMD hardware inside my little iBook (Virtual PC on this thing is SLOW). Of course, this way I have all of the advantages of having both computers.
This solution is certainly not for everyone, but for me it works like a charm.
Cheers,
Jorge
No
I'm an embedded programmer, I compile for MANY different target platforms and BSPs. I use my Powerbook as my IDE and CVS environment full time, cross compiling for any platform that uses a GNU compiler (which is most ARM, MIPS and x86 platforms) and serial debugging/printf connection if its needed. I can cross compile to many systems and those than I can't, I have a headless clunker box and VNC or I use VirtualPC to compile or debug on the occasion tools are only available for Windows/PC (just like I used net meeting and my windows laptop if a customer provided me with a fully configured host platform). In the embedded space, tools are never made for the exact host platform you're using so you learn to be flexible anyway. I imagine if you are only in the x86 PC Windows space, you could do all of your dev on the Mac and use VPC for testing if your Apps aren't processor or I/O intensive.
--Let's hack root on 127.0.0.1 --panZ
If you are using development tools native to Windows maybe you could run them on a remote machine and use RDC from your Apple laptop. Microsoft provides a free download of their RDC product at: http://www.microsoft.com/Mac/DOWNLOAD/MISC/RDC.asp
This offers a less expensive alternative to VirtualPC
Go for a 3'rd party laptop. They're often made in the same originating factories, are quite a bit less expensive, and have some cutting-edge features. I've had great dealings with PowerNotebooks -- take a look at their 17" widescreen TiBook clone. -moof
I recently got a Dell inspiron 8500. It feels flimsey, it has a terrible keyboard and it freezes (i.e. stops working completely) after a few hours of use. I'm still trying to get Dell tech support to replace it.
Although the spec is great for the price, I wish I paid more and got an IBM Thinkpad.
I just bought a certified pre-owned T30
I know the whole 'pre-owned' thing has been done for a long time, but today I just feel like commenting on it.
Why do companies feel the need to "church up" words to try to fool people. Just fucking call it "used" and deal with it.
For sale: Pre-owned dog food-- sold in a convenient, neatly-formed lump. As an added bonus, I'll throw in the blades of grass that are clinging to it.
I got a refurbished Thinkpad T22 (900Mhz P3) for $995 in January. Try getting an equivalent powerbook for that much.
I have friends who have had refurbished T20s for the past 2 years, used for about 10 hours a day, every day, with no problems.
Check IBM's ebay store or http://www.tigerdirect.com
12" iBook quality is only so-so - thermal problems, screen backlight and the screen hinge. Thaey VERY hard to work on too. I look after some for clients. The old roundish ones don't go wrong much. The 17" iBook sofar has been great - none of the probs as with 12"s. In PC laptops I prefer Thinkpads - not the consumer series (i-series etc) though. The older R31s are pretty reliable and feel solid - they are being discounted in this country - $2000 AUS.
And best of all, they are allowed to offer that price to friends and family.
As the parent comment suggests, VMWare creates a virtual machine, which means it uses the protected memory features of the processor to create the illusion that the guest operating system is running on a full, unencumbered computer. When one runs Windows under Linux using VMWare, Windows actually gets to run x86 instructions directly on the processor. But whenever it attempts to access hardware directly, VMWare grabs control, does whatever needs to be done to convince Windows that the right thing is happening, and Windows doesn't know any better.
Virtual PC, however, creates an entire x86 processor in software, so it can run on any arbitrary hardware. It obviously takes more than one machine instruction to emulate one in software, so software will run much slower, as opposed to only slightly slower in the case of VMWare.
Mooooooo
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I switched from XP Pro to an iBook 600 with Jaguar on September last year, then replaced it with a Ti Book 867 (also Jaguar) this past April. I totally feel your pain with the issue of picking an Intel laptop.
If I had to buy an Intel laptop it would have to be either an IBM ThinkPad or a Toshiba. IBM builds their laptops like tanks and don't waste on asthetics. "ThinkBricks" are very solid and look like hand-sized versions of the 2001 monolith. My kid once stood on a closed ThinkBrick and he did not crack the screen, even if at the time he was 35 pounds.
Of course, you may want to consider using Virtual PC 6. I have it on my Titanium Powerbook and runs Windows 2000 Pro without issues (I need it for SQL Server's enterprise manager and the query analyzer). I tried VPC on the iBook 600 with 384MB and it was too slow, with the Ti Book 867 it has 512MB so it runs much smoother.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Soak it up, pay the money, and get an IBM T-series notebook. They're both sturdy and reasonably light, and have the best mix of horsepower and battery life I've found, given their class. At one point I was responsible for several hundred of them, and they were much better, reliability-wise than Compaq and Toshiba models that were also inflicted on me.
Dell is OK if you don't have money, but frankly, there's nothing in their lineup that matches the "lightweight desktop replacement" that is the T-series, and the most compelling thing about their products to me is that there's quite a bit more parts interchange than is possible with most brands; that's hardly compelling for an individual (dell goes for higher-end graphics chips than the likes of IBM, too. For a business machine, I doubt that's a good thing).
The truth is, you'll never be able to match ALL the things that Apple is good at with one x86 machine. Most particularly, battery life on the iBooks I'm familiar with seems to be much better than even brand-new units from the land of the Pentium. I just know if I had to blow a huge wad of cash on a notebook PC, it'd be an IBM T-series. From my experience, I'd have to say they're worth the cash.
Off-topic, sorta, but...
I know a laptop repair guy who spits every time someone says "Toshiba". Ususually into a cup, sometimes a handkerchief. At first I thought he chewed tobacco but when I asked him about it, he told me it's a matter of principle. Oddly enough, I understood completely.
-- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
The Powerbook is a G3 Pismo, the Thinkpad a 233Mhz 600E. So neither is fast, but both are nice. The Apple's slightly newer.
I love OSX. I love Apple. There are features of the Thinkpad that make me like it better. This amazed me. For instance, the texture of the body plastic near the keyboard is PERFECT. Much better than the G3. Of course, it has a couple extra mouse buttons. It's incredibly easy to swap the HDs, even when they're still warm, so I can have an easy multiple boot setup. (I prefer this to a partitioning scheme because I HAVE several HDs, and I don't have a single much-larger one.) IBMs latch for the PCMCIA slot is superior.
(These are the machines I use every day)
I've seen a lot of laptops, and I definitely think IBM is the PC-way to go.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
No shit? I bet if you open one of them up in starbucks, all the customers would run to the window to see which nearby building was about to blow up. Do they come packaged with a black suit and sinister shades?
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
I've got one of each. The IBM Thinkpad T20 was the nicest laptop I've ever used. Until I got the 15" Tibook -- it beats the T20 hands-down.
So if you're stuck in an intel world, the T20/t23/t-whatever series is a great laptop from IBM. The only major drawback I've noticed is very short (45 minute-1 hour) battery life, although that may be fixed on newer models.
I also tried to use virtual PC on my Tibook -- it ran *OK* -- not great, pretty slow. Main problem is that it sucks all of the CPU and the fan kicks in and the thing gets hot enough to burn your knee. All that power consumption kills battery life.
For 'normal' work in the os x environment the tibook is quiet, fast, and the battery lasts a long time (I get about 3 hours for typical work, about 1.25 hours for watching DVDs).
"But actually trying to use m4 as a general-purpose langage would be deeply perverse" --ESR
I bought a really nice Vaio with a desktop chip. It's faster than my desktop (1.7ghz amd). I've carried it around with me at college for a year so far with no probs. Bought it from sony.com. GX something or other model.
I love you brother in the holy war to expose the stupid motherfuckers that sit at a table with a fork, knife and spoon, and insist on eating a steak with a spoon. Such is the fucking average Mac user.
HAHAHAHA.
Agnostic. I am Agnostic. Macs have a very small place. But if this idiot cant switch over to Linux, Windows 2000 or Solaris without pissing and whining, he is a fuck. In fact, I cant think of anything that Windows doesnt do. Sure, video editing is more interesting on Mac, but a fuckload slower.
Zealots who demand Macs at work better have a good excuse. The really sharp Macheads all have thier own laptops anyway, since they dont mind waiting - they figure its easier to always have what they think they need.
If the guy wont put his money where his mouth is and tries to buck the company with fuckheaded demands to excuse himself from being productive, good job firing the little fucker.
There are legions of smarter more flexible people ready to do a better job anyway
You are such a fucking Tool. You are a bad troll. Your are a bizarre, foolish know nothing bitch.
/.-ing freak.
You sexless
You are a commuinist in life because mediocre people revel in it.
You are a Fascist mac L-user.
Piss off freak.
I work in the computer service dept. of an all-Apple liberal arts college, and the thought of searching for an "Apple-quality" laptop makes me chuckle. The original iBook and Powerbook G3 were both pretty solid machines, for their time. But I would not, under any circumstances, buy a new iBook or TiBook.
The white iBook's biggest problem is its constantly failing LCD. The majority of the iBooks we see make an awful creaking noise when the lid is opened, which is the sound of the plastic LCD housing separating. We also see many batteries failing within 1-2 years. And no PC Card slot? No (independent) dual display? No Airport Extreme (802.11g)? Only a G3? Make no mistake, the iBook is a -budget- laptop.
The G4 Powerbook is built like a supermodel - sleek, sexy... and extremely fragile. The only exception, however, is the new 12" Powerbook - it's a little early to pass judgement, but the newest models seem to be incredibly solid. There's all kinds of extra structural reinforcement (which make it a bitch to work on), but the difference is immediately obvious. If anyone wanted to buy an Apple laptop, this would be the one.
That said, my next laptop would most certainly be an IBM. If Apple were Volkswagen, IBM would be BMW. I have a friend with an older T20, and I swear you can hear the lid hermetically seal when you close it. The BIOS is AMAZINGLY configurable. IBMs run Linux like a champ; hell, they used to SELL them with Caldera OpenLinux preloaded! My housemate also has a Thinkpad, and when she went to reinstall Windows, the machine did an automatic factory restoration... without a CD. Those little touches convinced me that a Thinkpad is the only laptop ever worth buying. That is, if you can get past those damn eraser-head trackpoints.
That's the same computer that is also being sold under the Lindows brand.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
ever try alienware.com? they have awesome computers, and all of them are very high quality. their laptop is really a powerful desktop in disguise.
Same price as the 12" powerbook, same or better features, half the weight.