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Artificial Intelligence in Poker

Markian Hlynka writes "The University of Alberta's research into Poker AI is featured in this New York Times article. There is also detailed discussion of the game of Poker, and the 'new breed' of players who have honed their abilities online. See the U of A's poker project for more information."

279 comments

  1. No intelligence is nessasary by teamhasnoi · · Score: 3, Funny
    to Poker.

    She'll probably want dinner first, though.

    1. Re:No intelligence is nessasary by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Poker? But I barely know her!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:No intelligence is nessasary by Dr+Caleb · · Score: 1
      Poker? But I barely know her!

      Liquor? I don't even like her!

      --
      "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
    3. Re:No intelligence is nessasary by sig+cop · · Score: 0

      Me toooo!!!!!

    4. Re:No intelligence is nessasary by Skord · · Score: 1

      I've always heard "Liquor, you brought her!"

  2. Another by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    New York Times article reviewed. Gotta put an end to this.

    1. Re:Another by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, what we need an end to is the whining. Just register and get on with your life.

    2. Re:Another by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just populate their form with bogus data. Put things like you are a scientist, under training, maiking more than 150K yearly. It will make their data miners go nuts.
      Once in a while erase the nytimes cookies, and repeat the process.

    3. Re:Another by Deanasc · · Score: 1
      Clearly there's some shill for the NYT here on /. Only open revolution can put a stop to this.

      The streets will flow with the blood of the nonbelievers!

      --
      I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
  3. Hmm by deman1985 · · Score: 1

    Great, now the machines will get to shake every last penny out of me too.

  4. Strip Poker Games by beders · · Score: 5, Funny

    If the AI is too good, we can't get the girls naked.

    Mmm, EGA boobies...

    1. Re:Strip Poker Games by Leffe · · Score: 1
      Mmm, EGA boobies...
      Argh, memory flashbacks.
    2. Re:Strip Poker Games by TopShelf · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think you meant mammary flashbacks!

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    3. Re:Strip Poker Games by LittleGuy · · Score: 2, Funny

      With my luck, when they get around to AI Strip Poker, the opponent with be the T-X.

      --
      Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
  5. Got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em by mikeophile · · Score: 4, Funny

    And when to use a Beowulf cluster to simulate every possible strategy.

  6. Poker AI? riight... by KDan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Poker is not a card game, it's a people game (aka don't play the cards, play the people). It's all about bluffing and reading other people's bluffs. I'm baffled that people even bother playing poker on the internet. Even with webcams the game wouldn't be the same at all.

    Daniel

    --
    Carpe Diem
    1. Re:Poker AI? riight... by deman1985 · · Score: 1

      You mean you can't tell when your computer is lying to you?

    2. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Skyleth · · Score: 0

      I agree, Poker is all about reading the other player. It's a game you play against other people, unlike blackjack or some other card games where you are playing against the house. Playing against an AI would be like playing against yourself, you don't gain any real experience from it, the human interaction is what makes the game so exciting.

    3. Re:Poker AI? riight... by AssFace · · Score: 5, Interesting

      reading the article is too much I see.

      it references that and points out how much of "reading the player" is overhyped and easily faked out.

      whereas the real information is in the trade at hand - the exchange of money. watching the bets and the amounts in them at varying spots in the game.

      I have a few friends that have won online tournaments and they approach it from a very mathematical point of view. They do very well in person or over the net.
      Using the "read" approach, unless the read is of the play on the table, is only going to work with people that aren't aware of the read and therefore not faking the attributes.

      I personally prefer to look for the security holes in the online software :)
      (There was a famous one in '96 or so where the system was using the random function built in - I think in Turbo Pascal IIRC - they had it exposed by posting their random code on the net to prove that they were being fair. A consulting firm then exploited that to show that they only needed to see one or two cards beyond what was in their card to then show what everyone else in the game was holding... there is much higher security in it all these days, and better/smarter programming).

      Another firend in college found a site that had a hole, not in the security, but in the method at which they gave out tokens - as long as you kept playing, there was a reward of some number of tokens as an incentive to keep you playing.
      He then ran some numbers and proved that with that, they were open to an exploit of the Martingale system. He ran it on them for a good amount of time and it failed - he basically proved that their code was cheating on the inside.
      He called them on it and after a few heated e-mails, got all his money back and was banned from the site.
      I could go on and on - but that is going off topic.

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    4. Re:Poker AI? riight... by secret_squirrel_99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Poker is not a card game, it's a people game (aka don't play the cards, play the people). It's all about bluffing and reading other people's bluffs. I'm baffled that people even bother playing poker on the internet

      Except that people play a certain way and develop easily (especially for an AI) recognizable patterns. Those patterns are just as recognizable, perhaps even more so online where the number of hands played per hour is so much greater.

      Players can get broken loosely (particularly for Texas Holdem, but also for other games) into a small group of profiles and their play patterned according to that.

      While an academic study may be new, commercial software to do this has been available for years. In particular Turbo Texas Holdem from Wilson software does an outstanding job of simulating different types of players and play conditions

      and if you really believe that people skills and not card or math skills are all that you need, I'd invite you to come to Atlantic City and sit in any of the games I regularly attend. We'd love to have you.

      --
      If privacy had a tombstone it would read "We did it for your own good" . -- John Twelve Hawks
    5. Re:Poker AI? riight... by rkent · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes and no. For limit hold 'em, there is an (approximately) "correct" way to play based on pot odds, likelihood of drawing the hand you need, etc. Early rounds of no-limit tournies approximate this, with the occasional all-in raise to shake things up, but I'd have to agree with you that in later rounds against clearly competent players, no-limit is very much a social game.

      Which leads to the larger issue: poker is a game of incomplete information; you don't KNOW what your opponent holds. You can make estimations based on past play and game conventions (eg, a bet from early position usually indicates AA, KK, or AK), but you don't know for sure, and this raises the possibility of deception.

      The problem with that is, game theory generally models strategies to combat players who are playing (rationally) to win. Not all players play like this, or at least not apparently based on the strength of cards. I think most emulators are going to get screwed on bluffs.

      But still, in lower-limit games, people are loose enough that bluffing doesn't really help (Lee Jones: "generally, you're going to have to show down with the best hand to win"), so a decent AI could at least maintain a winning margin, and so could an actual human who played tightly enough to take advantage of this. I don't know. You sure can't make zillions playing cards online, and it's definitely a while before the "deep blue" of poker.

    6. Re:Poker AI? riight... by zdislaw · · Score: 1
      But the guy who won the World Series of Poker last May had never sate down at a poker table. He had only played on the internet. That's the point of the article.

      It may not be as fun as in person, but the article pretty well disputes your statement that "it's all about bluffing and reading other people's bluffs."

      --
      bad sig...no donut.
    7. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Shenkerian · · Score: 1

      You're partly right. Various forms of poker have varying degrees of people reading. No-limit Texas hold 'em is almost entirely a people game, but limit Omaha hold 'em (for example) can be played very profitably playing primarily your cards. In general, pot- and no-limit games are predominantly people games, but in limit games you can get away with less finesse and more strict math. It's much less important to read your opponent correctly when you have to call, say, 10% of the pot to see his cards than when you have to call 2000% (or more!) of the pot.

      --
      You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.
    8. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Nukenbar2 · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the Rounders quote, but the whole point of the story is that playing people is probably not as important as "experts" seem to think. If Mr. Moneymaker can just show up and blast through all of the pros, maybe just the mechanics of the game is all it takes. Now granted anyone could probably win given a good enough run of cards, but signs and tell just aren't as important if everyone knows what they are, and knows how to fake them.

    9. Re:Poker AI? riight... by drfireman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're partly right. No-limit hold'em is about things like bluffing. The kinds of poker most people play in public cardrooms (mostly limit hold'em and stud) are more about the cards, although understanding your opponents is critical to doing well at either one. Either way, online poker has a lot to offer. It's still about understanding your opponents, you just don't get as much information by way of physical behavior. There are tons of bad players online -- players who make fundamental mistakes (i.e., don't play their cards well) and who don't adjust to their opponents well (both in failing to take proper advantage and in playing easily exploited strategies). It's true that the game isn't the same at all. But many of the differences are positive, and like live poker, it's still a game of skill (a fact that's well obscured by short-term variance).

      (Blatant plug: I'm a little biased, the new edition of my book ("Serious Poker," an introduction to the serious game) has a chapter on online poker. But I do believe online poker has a lot to offer, and the sites do offer poker for play money as well.)

    10. Re:Poker AI? riight... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Yeah, cheating by the house is rife in online casinos. It's to be expected, really...the house, being a corporation, has an obligation to maximize its profits in any way possible. You'd have to be insane to play online Blackjack. Poker, though, is different. Players can collude with each other easily through the telephone or IRC. I'm sure somewhere in the wide world, there are poker boiler rooms, where lines of low-wage people sit and play for a fixed wage. I always said I was going to teach a bunch of Chinese people to play Ultima Online, pay them $10/day, and sell items on ebay.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    11. Re:Poker AI? riight... by jjohnson · · Score: 1

      The article says differently. It says that playing the cards is a better strategy, and the fact that the last world champion was a 100% cyber-player tends to support that.

      --
      Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
    12. Re:Poker AI? riight... by tpengster · · Score: 3, Informative

      Poker is not a card game, it's a people game (aka don't play the cards, play the people). It's all about bluffing and reading other people's bluffs. I'm baffled that people even bother playing poker on the internet. Even with webcams the game wouldn't be the same at all.

      While it's true that poker involves reading people, it is primarily a game of calculating odds and using them to your advantage. For example: if you have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting your flush on the next card, then you should only pay to see the next card if there are $4 in the pot for every $1 you must pay. Etc. This gets more complicated with bluffing.

      It's also easy to read people on the internet. People still bluff and call with patterns that reveal their hand, and observant players can take advantage of this. That's why the same players always win at the high-stakes table. That's why, in the recent World Series of Poker, the winner was an internet player who had never played a live game before

      For more information on internet poker, please see PokerTips.org . This is a great site that has lots of strategy information and reviews of online casinos so you know which ones you can trust.

    13. Re:Poker AI? riight... by armb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > But still, in lower-limit games, people are loose enough that bluffing doesn't really help

      I recently heard a serious poker player on the radio explaining why it's worth bluffing sometimes.
      If you don't bluff and lose sometimes, then when you _do_ have a good hand, you won't win much with it. You need your opponents to think "he could be just bluffing again, it's worth raising".

      He was playing in high-stakes games though.

      --
      rant
    14. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Idarubicin · · Score: 3, Informative
      He then ran some numbers and proved that with that, they were open to an exploit of the Martingale system.

      What sort of 'exploit' of Martingale is this? Martingale is ultimately always a losing strategy unless 1) there is no house limit and 2) you have an infinite supply of cash.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    15. Re:Poker AI? riight... by mike_mgo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That's true for higher stakes games (not that I've ever played in any) but in a low limit game ($2-4 or $3-6 hold-em for example) you're less likely to win with a bluff since many people playing these games figure, "Well, it's just $2 more to see the last card (or see what he had) so I might as well call."

      You're just much more likely to need the best hand to win in low limit games. Bluffing may sometimes work (especially against better, or at least tighter, players) and is probably useful to at least occasionaly mix up your style.

    16. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Alaric42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would assume that the free tokens given out over time ended up being an infinite supply of money as long as you stretched out the hand length or somesuch.

    17. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Axiom_1 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      As a winning poker player in casinos and online, I can tell you that poker is very much a card game, as well as a people game.

      Read Caro's Book of Tells for a good introduction to how to read people. You'll notice that some of the most powerfull tells give you information about how that player plays the game (tight, loose, passive, aggressive, etc.). A computer could get this information by keeping tabs on what its opponents do, and crunching the numbers. The only information it would lack is the tells people give off to inform you of what they are holding right now.

      The edge you get from being able to read these "what do I hold right now" tells moderately well is a very slim one. It is an edge, and it will let you win money in games where you would otherwise lose. But knowing the odds, and reading what your opponents have based on the way they bet, and based on what hands you have seen them play in the past, are the fundamentals of the game. A good AI could master these fundamentals, and could probably challenge some of the better poker players in the world.

      Note that I said the edge is slim if you can read these tells moderately well. Some of the people I see playing in the WSOP seem to be brilliant at it. I'm not qualified to talk about what kind of an edge it gives them, so I won't.

    18. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >he house, being a corporation, has an obligation to maximize its profits in any way possible

      And when the last corporation uses the last gram of uranium to power the machine that sucks up the last drop of oil which they use to cut down the last tree on the planet to turn into paper money which they use to bribe the last honest politician, it will be a great comfort to us all that they are only doing it because capitalism obligates them to.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    19. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Ralgha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bluffing the attributes is part of the game. The true masters of poker can read a bluff. That's where the game becomes interesting.

    20. Re:Poker AI? riight... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      keep your hard-left bitterness between yourself and your weblog. okthankyou buhbye.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    21. Re:Poker AI? riight... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Clearly you spend to much time watching people play in the movies, as opposed to actually playing.

      Watch the pot, know the players to know how they use the pot.

      If you bluff in poker, you loose your money. Accept perhaps small local game with you and some chumes. In that case you are probably so amaturish it doesn't really count for real games.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    22. Re:Poker AI? riight... by holt · · Score: 1

      That isn't going to maximize their profits in the long term.

    23. Re:Poker AI? riight... by rudedog · · Score: 2, Informative

      The point is not that you can actually expect to win with a bluff, the point is that if you develop a reputation for "never bluffing", then you never get called when you have the goods. The occasional bluff will not win the pot, but if you get caught in a bluff, you will be more likely to get called when you actually have a hand.

      This advertising strategy is one of the few that work in low-limit poker as well, because people tend to remember bluffers, and they have this irrational need to "keep them honest".

    24. Re:Poker AI? riight... by wmajik · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not a personal attack, but I'm assuming you are not a poker player.

      At heart, poker is a human game where your ability in the mental martial arts dictate your ability to succeed. That being said however, this purity usually only shows at the highest levels of poker, heads-up (1v1) no limit poker; as showcased in the World Series of Poker (WSOP).

      In the average poker game at the local casino or with your buddies on Thursday night, the 'mental game' usually falls along the wayside along with the beer bottles. A main caveat of playing perfect poker is to play as if you could see what everyone else at the table is holding. The better you are able to put a man to his hand (figure out what his/her cards are) the better your play becomes, theoretically speaking. I say theoretically because like it says in the article: "Game-theory models usually assume that every player uses the best possible strategy, something that rarely if ever happens with humans."

      Many times, you can have a table filled with players who have no idea what they are doing and betting blindly with an ace high. In this scenario, against a good player holding ace high, you would know to re-raise him even if you were holding garbage, as ace high is not a strong enough hand to call with. Against a weak player, they may even re-raise you back not realizing that they are making a terrible play according to game theory, BUT, a play that happens to actually work in reality. Only in poker can you tell someone that the only reason they won was because they played terrible :)

      Anyhow, my example was meant to illustrate that in poker, sometimes you play the person and other times you play for the best hand. Being able to do both and knowing when to mix it up is what separates a true professional from the average player.

      Then again, talking is very theoretical too for that matter. But then you have to realize there are many people who make a profit playing online (myself included), so don't take my word for it, look at my stack of chips :grin:.

      If anyone is interested, I play at Party Poker.

      Good place for beginners and they'll add $25 to your account if you sign up with the code MAGIC.

    25. Re:Poker AI? riight... by gte910h · · Score: 1

      You be surprised how much information you get. You really understand betting patterns if you come from an online game. Some people run databases of their opponents (you can request a history of your hands played), and can read their hand quite adeptly with the aid of these records.

      --
      Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
    26. Re:Poker AI? riight... by gte910h · · Score: 1

      Depends on the game. I've been in games screwed down so tight that you could make a bundle stealing the ante's or blinds, and playing the moderately well too.

      Then again, I usually stole on a semi-bluff (like a Ace-Blank or a low pair).

      Against good players, bluff work occasionally. Against bad players, not that often.

      --
      Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
    27. Re:Poker AI? riight... by imaginate · · Score: 1

      nicely put.

    28. Re:Poker AI? riight... by gte910h · · Score: 1

      "and the fact that the last world champion was a 100% cyber-player tends to support that."

      Bzzzzt. He said paying attention to his opponents betting amounts/patterns was important. This is a very individualized sort of thing. I can often count the number of hands my opponent might be holding on one hand from the way he's betting, especially the better players.

      --
      Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
    29. Re:Poker AI? riight... by parliboy · · Score: 1

      To a lesser extent, it is still the same online. I spent some time playing around on PartyPoker.com, and found bluffing to be an absolutely integral part of gameplay.

      However, instead of having access to verbal and visual cues and "vibe" from your opponent, you have to rely on other cues, like the way he has played his cards in the past, or the manner or timing with which he bets. This makes "switching things up" doubly important, because if your opponent (human or theoretically, computer) knows what it means when you bet $x in y seconds, you're screwed.

      Those who think that bluffing is useless in online poker have never won a pot with a pair of 4's.

      --
      "You're never ready, just less unprepared."
    30. Re:Poker AI? riight... by DA_MAN_DA_MYTH · · Score: 1

      It's still very much a statistical game even without 'reading people'.

      Why you always throw away a 2 and a 7, pre-flop.

      You need to know probabilities of cards coming out, that's why we you play with people that are 'Rocks' only bet when they have the semi-best possible hand you need to know.

      The reading part of poker helps when you know you have the best hand possible, and you 'check and raise...'

      --
      "It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
    31. Re:Poker AI? riight... by DA_MAN_DA_MYTH · · Score: 1

      It's a lot tougher decision to see that river card, if the other player is all in.

      The exception of course, he's all in, but you got 95% of his chips.

      --
      "It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
    32. Re:Poker AI? riight... by IdleTime · · Score: 1

      You obviously didn't see the WPT on Travel Channel last night? Where Chris Karaguyllan executed a perfect strategy to come out on top of the game, which he also did. These types of games are very different from the games played at real casino's and on-line casions.

      The On-line casinos give you an opportunity to learn the game and learn how other players play whithout having to judge their behaviour, just from the cards they play and how they bet. Do this with play-money first, but also remember that with play-money, you get a lot of loose players betting on anything since it actually doesn't cost you anything, skip those tables or play them for all they are worth to build up a nice stash of play-money. Then find tables were the players try to play real hold'em. When you have won several hundred thousands of play money, move on to the low-stake real money tables and start to re-learn the betting game. By this time you should know how to handle the cards, but not real betting. Move on up and play some cheap tournaments before you set your foot in a real card room.

      The on-line card rooms are great for learning and fun and to actually win real money. Don't put them down without knowing anything about them. I play regularly in several of them and I have never been cheated out of money, my winnings have always been credited to my accounts promptly and the rake is low. I much prefer on-line card games to casinos, since the casino needs to take more of your money than the on-line rooms plus the fact that there isn't a casion around every corner of the world. A couple of nights ago I played with a guy from Iraq, one from Malaysia, one from Germany and one from Brazil. Lots' of fun.

      --
      If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
    33. Re:Poker AI? riight... by gehrehmee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Think that's frightening?

      Check out this article on the Second International Roshambo (Rock Paper Scissors) Programming Contest. It's actually quite interesting to understand some of the justifications and rationalles that go into attemping to win at a normally un-winnable game:

      Game theorists have analysed rock-paper-scissors and come to the conclusion that the optimal way to win a game of rock-paper-scissors is to play completely randomly; random play will win as many throws as it loses and hence draw every match. However, consider trying to win a tournament by drawing every match!

      Therefore, when trying to win a rock-paper-scissors tournament, you should assume that players will be trying to win the whole event and hence will not be playing optimally. Therefore you shouldn't play optimally - instead, you should figure out how to play in order to beat your opponent.

      --
      "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
    34. Re:Poker AI? riight... by gehrehmee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh, and before I forget, the Roshambo Programming Contest is hosted by the University of Alberta, the same university responsible for the above poker AI article.

      They've also created the world's best checkers player, human or machine. Chinook utilized a distributed computing solution for mapping and optimizing its checkers stratagy back in 1989. IIRC from the talk Dr. Jonathan Schaeffer gave on it, this distributed network accounted for 80-90% of the Internet traffic between the United States and Canada in its day :)

      --
      "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
    35. Re:Poker AI? riight... by kaptin · · Score: 1

      I'm baffled that people even bother playing poker on the internet.

      On the contrary, I have a friend who is a pretty good poker player and who recently got fired from his 9-5 job. Since then he's been playing online 4-8 hrs. a day and heading to Casinos every couple weekends or so.

      He's been making approximately $500 a day from online poker, simply because there are so many people online who don't know what they're doing. Once I heard the numbers he was pulling in I couldn't believe he was working a 9-5 job in the first place!

      --
      If water were beans, I'd be 70% beans.
    36. Re:Poker AI? riight... by schof · · Score: 1

      Poker is not a card game, it's a people game (aka don't play the cards, play the people). It's all about bluffing and reading other people's bluffs. I'm baffled that people even bother playing poker on the internet. Even with webcams the game wouldn't be the same at all.


      Poker is a money game. You can win money on the Internet.

    37. Re:Poker AI? riight... by trixillion · · Score: 1

      I must be missing something.

      Let's suppose that half of the touniment bots are using the random choice strategy and the others are suboptimal. Aren't the odds overwhelmingly in favor of one fo the random bots winning the tourni? How is it ever an advantage to not use the random strategy?

    38. Re:Poker AI? riight... by gehrehmee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let's say there's 100 bots. Just to make it ridulously clear, let's say 98 of them are using random choice. Our bot, which will use the "suboptimal" solution, will still come up against all of the random bots in a draw, since they're playing randomly. The only thing left to affect our total score is that one other "suboptimal" bot. If our sub-optimal bot can beat it on average, we get a slight edge, and win the tournement. The same applies to the 50-50 case. Basically, you can't win or lose against the random bots. So you might as well play your own stratagy. The other problem to look out for is that going into a match, you don't know anything about your opponent. It could be a random bot, or any kind of strategic algorithm. Once again, if it's random, it doesn't matter what you play, you'll still come out even. But on the slightest chance that it's non-random, you can try your strategy. You can also take it a step further, and try to deduce what the other guy's stratagy is. If you know exactly what his Roshambo algorithm is going to pick, then you can always beat him. Then again, you run the risk of misintepreting a strategy (or a series of random plays *as* a strategy), and playing yourself into the ground. Or you could end up playing your adaptive algorithm against someone else's adaptive algorithm, and getting into some really interesting competition :)

      --
      "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
    39. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Kintanon · · Score: 1

      I just want to say that game was CRAZY. I thought for sure Hon was going to come back and take it all after starting in 4th chip position. That was seriously a GREAT game to watch.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    40. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Kintanon · · Score: 1

      Poker is a money game. You can win money on the Internet.

      This is the essence of poker right here. The game is about MONEY. You compare the amount of money you can win to the odds of having the best hand at the show down.
      If you play that way and only take the greater than 50% chances of winning you will come out ahead over time.
      What being able to read your opponent gives you is a little help in knowing when even though you are over the 50% mark, they have the better hand. It's about that extra margin of security.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    41. Re:Poker AI? riight... by edrugtrader · · Score: 1

      I play cards 8 hours a night on pokerroom.com and as a winning player (over $10,000 in 1 year) i can say you are completely wrong.

      limit hold'em is almost all about pot odds with your cards, with a little bit of knowing about the other players playing style... what kind of cards they play and how they play them. the first one is simple to program AI... figure out what you are drawing to, how many cards help you and make sure there is enough money in the pot to justify.

      you may not think the second can be automated, but i have done so myself. online pokerrooms offer "hand history" pages so you can type in a hand number and get data about the hand. i wrote a program that pulls all of that data and puts in it my own mysql DB and generates player reports. sit at a table, type in the last hand number and it will show you a report with everyone on the table and generally how they play including how much they have won/lost and their average hourly rate.

      if you sign up using this link, and email me, i'll give you access to the reporting page handhistory.com.

      --
      MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
    42. Re:Poker AI? riight... by ccnull · · Score: 1

      I always said I was going to teach a bunch of Chinese people to play Ultima Online, pay them $10/day, and sell items on ebay.

      Too late, only they did it in Tijuana: http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/blacksnow.html

    43. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      Poker is not a card game, it's a people game (aka don't play the cards, play the people).

      You watch too many movies. Limit poker is 98% just playing your hand. Throw away the bad ones, play agressively with the good ones. The end.

    44. Re:Poker AI? riight... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      I went to PartyPoker.com...it appears to only work on Windows computers. Do any online sites for poker work OS neutral? Any Java based one?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    45. Re:Poker AI? riight... by bgspence · · Score: 1

      From the site linked at http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~darse/Papers/IJCAI03-ov .html

      Manfred Dworschak (DER SPIEGEL) wrote:
      >
      > Darse,
      >
      > Thanks for your quick reply. I was just wondering if you could give me a
      > brief and simple introduction into how PsOpti works. (Perhaps there is a
      > written document available so you wouldn't have to bother explaining all
      > that stuff to me? I've read your paper on this subject, but that's too
      > technical for my purposes.)
      >
      > Ok. What I'd like to learn is this:
      >
      > - How does it work?
      > - What is it that makes it superior in comparison with its predecessors?
      >

      Well, that is a difficult question to answer briefly, but I'll try to
      give a high-level overview.

      Good strategy involves a fine balance of bluffing and betting for value.
      Excellent play must involve a certain amount of bluffing (including
      bluff raises), as well as check-raising and slowplaying (where strong
      hands are played as though they are weak, delaying the raises to trap
      the opponent). Deciding precisely how to do this is a hard problem.

      Older versions of the program were designed to play the multi-player
      "ring game", typically with 10 players. Good strategy for that kind
      of game is very different from the 2-player game. When you have only
      one opponent, there is a lot more deception and trickery involved in
      good play. We shifted our focus to the 2-player game because the
      weaknesses of the earlier approaches were very evident in this game.

      A game-theoretic solution produces a sophisticated strategy that is
      well-balanced in all respects. It is also safe and "robust", because
      it is guaranteed to obtain the theoretical value of the game against
      *any* other strategy. By "strategy", we basically mean a recipe for
      how often to raise, call, or fold in any particular situation (this
      may involve randomness, such as choosing to raise 80% of the time and
      call 20%).

      The drawback is that this type of strategy is fixed -- it can't adapt
      to the style of a particular opponent. Although it will break even
      against any opponent, it might only win at a slow rate against a weak
      or predictable player. However, it would be an excellent default to
      use against a strong or unknown opponent, while making observations
      that will enable it to make the appropriate adjustments later.

      Game theory has been around since the 1940s, and it is now used in a
      wide variety of applications. It is the foundation of modern economics,
      and has been used for a diverse range of topics, such as the inspection
      of nuclear facilities, models of biological evolution, the FCC auctions
      for radio and television bandwidth, and much more.

      The limitation of game theory is that traditionally it could only be
      applied to very small problem sizes, or small models of a given problem.
      For example, you might be able to completely solve a poker variation
      having only eight cards in the deck and one betting round. What we did
      was show one way that a very large problem could be modeled with a set
      of much smaller problems, each of which is computationally tractable.

      It is impossible to compute the complete game-theoretic solution for
      Texas Hold'em (the poker variant used to determine the World Champion),
      because the 2-player game has more than a quintillion states (ie. 10 to
      the 18th power, or a billion billion). We used abstraction techniques
      to create smaller games that have about 30 million states, but retain
      most of the key properties of the real game. The solutions to these
      smaller games produce an approximation of the game-theoretic optimal
      solution for the real game.

      Since game theory is such an important area of mathematics, and since
      the techniques we used can be generalized to many other domains with
      imperfect information, the result may be significant. This may

    46. Re:Poker AI? riight... by adam613 · · Score: 1
      Poker is not a card game, it's a people game (aka don't play the cards, play the people). It's all about bluffing and reading other people's bluffs. I'm baffled that people even bother playing poker on the internet. Even with webcams the game wouldn't be the same at all.

      Read the article, then learn to play poker. All of the "tells" and related nonsense play very well in the Hollywood rendition of poker, but they hold very little weight in the vast majority of cardrooms in real life or online. It's true that poker is more a people game than a card game. But "playing the man*, not the cards" means watching your opponent's betting patterns and encouraging them to make mistakes.

      Example: I was in Atlantic City for July 4. I was playing $1-$5 7-card stud. There were eight people at the table. Four of them folded immediately; myself and three others called the opening $3 bet. On fourth street, nobody bet. On fifth street, I caught an Ace, giving me a pair of aces and the opening bet. I checked, the guy next to me checked, this guy who looked like he had a straight checked, and the fourth guy bet $5. According to the cards, I should have folded, but I raised to $10. Why? Because I knew the guy with the straight wasn't aggressive enough to call a $10 bet, and the guy who bet $5 had a history of trying to steal pots. They all folded to my raise, and I won $17. I played the men, not the cards. A computer could quite easily emulate the play I made.

      * I notice that women don't get taken very seriously at poker, especially attractive women. Therefore, those who know how to play poker generally do better than they should. Let's see a computer do that! :)

    47. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Wakko+Warner · · Score: 1

      I'll be in AC probably next weekend, and the weekend after that. Allow me to give you some of my money.

      - A.P.

      --
      "Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
    48. Re:Poker AI? riight... by outsider007 · · Score: 1

      I always do much better on the internet than in casinos. I think it's because I giggle whenever I have a good hand and whistle whenever I'm bluffing

      --
      If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
    49. Re:Poker AI? riight... by wmajik · · Score: 1

      www.pokerroom.com

      Java client. Play from work :)

    50. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Zathras11 · · Score: 1

      Have you played at TruePoker.com? 3-D table,
      you can see how often the player's look at the
      cards...very intersting. I prefer PartyPoker.com
      because they are the ONLY site I can find which
      offers play money table tournaments (in regular
      Limit Hold'em, as well as Pot Limit and No Limit).
      Their only problem is that they have become too
      polular! When I signed up 2+ months ago, at their
      busiest time of day they would have about 3000
      people on-line. Now, till late at night, they
      can have 10,000 and you can NOT get a seat at a
      table (regular or tournament). The tournament
      tables are like musical chairs as 57 people try
      to see who can click 1 button, a check box and
      then a second button the fastest for 10 seats!

      That said, I agree that reading your opponents
      is VERY important (almost as important as the
      cards you have). You can still do it on-line,
      but you have to do it differently than you would
      in person (ie, you can't see people twitch or
      hold their breath, or see their eyes get big
      as they see they drew A-A for their hole cards.

    51. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Lil'wombat · · Score: 1

      I used to play RPS on the U of Illinois PLATO/ NOVENET system. Someone had written a radmon generator which you could play against. The help documents offer a summary of the various strategies (always play rock, since you win 1/3 lose 1/3 tie 1/3. Similar justification for sissors and paper. Although paper had the advantage that you could play one handed since 'P' and enter are close together) The most interesting stategy was the Blackwell Gambit - always chose the one that will win. When implemented effectively, it is great stategy, of course few implementations are effective.

      --

      Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another

    52. Re:Poker AI? riight... by IdleTime · · Score: 1

      Yes, but Hon were not prepared for Chris!
      Chris had the largest chipstack and sat back, folding hands that would normally be played and let the others fight it out. very wise, then when he and Hon faced off, he changed gears and confused the heck out of Hon and won easily. A truly great game and an amazing lesson in Nolimit Hold'em!

      --
      If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
    53. Re:Poker AI? riight... by TexVex · · Score: 1
      I spent some time playing around on PartyPoker.com, and found bluffing to be an absolutely integral part of gameplay.
      Did you play for real money or at the play money tables? Did you play in a tournament (multi-table or single-table) or in a table stakes game?

      You might see a lot of bluffing for a $0.50/$1.00 table, or in a $6 buy-in tourney, but when the stakes go up the play improves a lot.
      --
      Fun with Anagarams! LADS HOST, SHALT DOS. HAS DOLTS. AD SLOTHS, HATS SOLD. ASS HO, LTD.
    54. Re:Poker AI? riight... by brocktune · · Score: 1

      Limit poker, the kind most commonly dealt around the world, is at most 10% bluffing for skilled players. Unskilled players bluff more and lose. No limit poker has more bluffing, but is played almost exclusively in tournaments, where money management, stack equity, etc. are especially important. Pot limit poker is the only cash game with a high degree of bluffing.

    55. Re:Poker AI? riight... by vandan · · Score: 1

      Shove your right-wing arrogance where the sun don't shine

    56. Re:Poker AI? riight... by CentrX · · Score: 1

      That's absurd, a "corporation" does not have an obligation to, or even the right to, maximize its profits in any way possible. A corporation consists of people anyway, who have an obligation to act morally above acting to maximize profits and failing to do so is those person's moral turpitude. Anyway, the people that work at a corporation have as much obligation to maximize the corporation's profits in any way as I have an obligation to reproduce prolifically as much as possible; there is no duty to achieve, at all costs, the apparent purpose of an agency--in a person or corporation.

      --

      "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
    57. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      > That isn't going to maximize their profits in the long term.

      The long term? What are you, some kind of Five Year Plan pinko? All that matters is keeping the corporate investors happy until the next shareholder meeting. You must be thinking of the days when companies were owned by investors, not speculators.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    58. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "last gram of uranium" will take a long time, particularly because a single stony asteroid has more minerals than we can reach in the Earth's crust. I have no idea how much carbon is in a carbon-loaded asteroid nor how it compares to the carbon we can reach on Earth (including carbon in the air, which we can capture and convert to fuel if we have cheap enough energy -- the advantage of doing this is because fuel is a concentrated portable energy source).

    59. Re:Poker AI? riight... by holt · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that's how it actually happens, but really, the people in charge should be considering long-term effects as well as the short and medium term. In an ideal world, anyway.

      You're right, though, because the way things are set up right now it's pretty hard for officers to convince shareholders to go in for long-term projects. The economy would probably be in better shape if more people thought about this.

    60. Re:Poker AI? riight... by mosch · · Score: 1

      And I'll be there to check out the Borgata's poker room during first weekend in August. Please feel free to take my money.

    61. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Pii · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tip... I played there for quite a while last night, and their Java client is much better than a lot of the full blown Windows clients I've seen.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
    62. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Pii · · Score: 1
      If you only play "the nuts," then you'll never get anywhere.

      The other players will know that if you stay in the hand, it's because you've got something strong, and they'll fold (Especially the tight players). You'll never get them to commit their stacks... You won't be able to trap...

      You have to play some meek hands, steal some pots on bluffs, and periodically, you've got to show them that you beat them out of a pot on the back of a 4-7 off-suit. That way, when you get dealt the monster, they won't be able to tell whether or not you've really got the goods.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
    63. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but with VMWare and VirtualPC and what not, you can usually play them anyway.

    64. Re:Poker AI? riight... by mosch · · Score: 1

      This is very true... I was playing at partypoker last night, and i played consecutively in 5-1, 10-1 and 30-3 NL Hold'em tourneys. The 5-1 was very easy to survive in... I played my best cards, usually taking the money of somebody who was representing the cards that were in my hand, and didn't start playing speculatively until it was down to 3 people, 2 of whom were chronic bluffers. I won that one. The 10-1 was fairly easy to survive, though I had to engage in some risky semi-bluffs to get my stacks up. The players were a little better, but they were still playing a lot of junk, even when it was ten handed. I won this one too. The 30-3 one proved that sometimes bluffs work. I lost about T1000 on a strong hand that got beat by an unlikely draw by a chronic bluffer (who went broke on a bluff shortly thereafter), but was left with such short stacks that I couldn't overcome the 50/100 blinds, and I finished fifth, but I'm not sure that I deserved it... I think that 6 or 7 of the players at that table were better than me.

    65. Re:Poker AI? riight... by majestyk2000 · · Score: 1

      The tournament tables are like musical chairs as 57 people try to see who can click 1 button, a check box and then a second button the fastest for 10 seats!

      Absolutely! I was on partypoker.com last night for four hours, playing on one pot limit Omaha table and watching the single-table play money tournaments, and I NEVER even came close to getting on a table. I know they aren't going to expend a lot of effort on play-money people, but you'd think they'd open new tournaments up to the point where they aren't getting enough people to play. I don't see the difference between opening one play-money Hold 'Em tournament and opening ten if there are 100 people hanging around in the lobby looking at the tournament page.

    66. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      If you only play "the nuts," then you'll never get anywhere.

      You're right. That is the other 2%. And yes, the higher you go the more you have to mix it up. For what it's worth, I played full time for several years before returning to programming.

    67. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Pii · · Score: 1
      If you don't mind my asking, what made you give it up?

      It's a facintating and fun game, and if a person was skilled enough to make a living at it, I can't imagine going back to a regular career.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
    68. Re:Poker AI? riight... by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      If you don't mind my asking, what made you give it up?

      It stopped being fun. When you have to win to pay the bills, you've got to park your butt in that chair whether you want to be there or not. And it's not a particularly interesting job, either. Also, the smoke began to get to me (although in California that's no longer an issue.)
      I made a good living, but I wasn't getting rich, and I knew I didn't have the "extra something" that turns a good player into a great one.
      So now I play when I want to, pick up some nice extra cash on the side, and for work I get to do something that's more interesting and stimulating.

  7. Gem by mao+che+minh · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I was following various links about the topic (artificial intelligence and poker) when I found this little gem. Wicked awesome site design, so I can only assume that his software building skills are as magnificent: POKER WITH AI-LEARNING

    I say we help him beta test not only his program, but also help him stress-test his web server.

    1. Re:Gem by Leffe · · Score: 1
      Wicked awesome site design, so I can only assume that his software building skills are as magnificent.


      Aren't we being a little sarcastic here? :)
    2. Re:Gem by spudchucker · · Score: 0

      Go on, start another Mahir!

    3. Re:Gem by Mechanik · · Score: 1

      I was following various links about the topic (artificial intelligence and poker) when I found this little gem. Wicked awesome site design, so I can only assume that his software building skills are as magnificent: POKER WITH AI-LEARNING

      I say we help him beta test not only his program, but also help him stress-test his web server.


      He's might be on the level, but I am a bit too paranoid to go to some fly-by-night brazilian website and download binary-only software to my machine that the author outright tells me is going to be emailing stuff back to him. This could all be one big Trojan.

      What is more:

      This option does not work for some configurations of Internet connection. If this option does not work please attach the file POKER_IA.MDB and send it to me, so I can join it to my DB.

      So if it's a trojan, and your firewall/email settings don't let the compromised data through, he socially engineers you into sending it to him yourself!

      Apologies to this guy if his stuff actually does what he says it does, but I think I'm going to pass just to be safe.

      Mechanik

    4. Re:Gem by Mechanik · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I said Brazilian, but I just realized it's actually Spanish. That damned green colour scheme threw me off and I didn't actually look closely at the URL until just now :-)

    5. Re:Gem by martyn+s · · Score: 1

      Okay, the green color threw you off, but what about the fact that brazilians speak Portuguese?

  8. If it's "Smart Poker" by ike6116 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Then does the AI cheat?

    --

    Are you secure enough in your masculinity to run 'man touch'?
  9. Article Text by daBum · · Score: 4, Informative

    For those who don't want to subscribe:

    WHEN an accountant named Chris Moneymaker won $2.5 million in the World Series of Poker last May, the chatter in the poker world wasn't focused on his skillful bluffing, his tremendous luck or even the aptness of his surname. Everyone wanted to know how a man who had never before sat down at a tournament table could clean out so many skilled professionals.

    While the Las Vegas hype machine focused on the rags-to-riches tale of a man who parlayed a $40 entrance fee into a huge pot, many poker players recognized that the amateur's success signaled the arrival of a new age in the game. Mr. Moneymaker may never have been in the same room as other players in a tournament of Texas Hold'em poker, but he had played extensively online, where the game is faster but the money is just as real. He was as much a rookie as Ichiro Suzuki, who joined the Seattle Mariners after nine years in the Japanese major leagues.

    The online poker saloons that nurtured Mr. Moneymaker, 27, are just the beginning. Many players hone their craft with simulation software that allows them to test strategies by playing out thousands or even millions of hands. Some researchers are building software opponents that use sophisticated concepts from economics and artificial intelligence to seek out the best strategy, then use the knowledge to beat human players. The experience of playing thousands of games in roadhouses and casinos is being eclipsed by a cyborg-like intelligence produced by humans weaned on machine play.

    The changes in the nature of the game are both subtle and striking. The advantages of some well-understood strategies are being tuned, and others are being abandoned. Some online enthusiasts, for instance, are even suggesting that the value of any information gleaned from watching the opponent's body for telltale tics or gestures is overrated. These so-called tells are too easily manipulated. More information comes in the pattern of bets, raises and calls. The money, they say, talks.

    The biggest factor propelling change may be the speed of technology. Players do not wait while someone shuffles and deals. Chips do not need to be counted or watched. Computers handle the accounting, often finishing hands in as little as 30 seconds.

    Steve Badger, the editor of the Web site playwinningpoker.com and winner of the 1999 World Series in a game called Omaha Hi-Lo, says that online poker halls are appealing because of their convenience.

    "You could play them every day," he said. "You're able to play two games at the same time. Or you can sit and read or vacuum or do any infinite number of things while waiting for the next hand."

    The online halls also offer substantially better rates. Most casinos pay for the lights and the dealer by subtracting either a fixed amount or a percentage from the pot. This levy, known as the rake, is often about $3 to $5 a hand in physical casinos, but about $1 or less online.

    The rake depends on the stakes, which can be lower than those at physical casinos. Some online tables have minimum bets as low as 25 cents, an amount that makes learning the game cheaper. The speed of the game, however, ends up raising the amount at risk because 60 to 100 hands can be played in an hour. Higher minimum bets of $5, $10 or more are also common at tables with the better players.

    Gautam Rao, a well-known Canadian player, said he stopped going to casinos in 2000, not long after his daughter was born, "because of the smoke and distance.''

    "I told my wife I had to find a way to play online," he said. Now, he is able to play every night between 10 p.m. and 3 a.m. while his daughter sleeps in the next room.

    "The rake is much less," he said. "The number of hands is much more. There are never any misdeals. There are never any issues related to tipping. The average cost of winning a pot is so much less. It's so much more efficient."

    The speed of play lets players work through the thousands of apprentice hands faste

    --
    I am dyslexia of borg - your ass will be laminated.
    1. Re:Article Text by daBum · · Score: 1

      Oops. Meant to hit the "post anon" box, but clicked Submit instead.

      Any karma whoring here is unintentional.

      --
      I am dyslexia of borg - your ass will be laminated.
    2. Re:Article Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about you just register to the site and stop wasting all our time? The NYT has a right to get something back for putting their whole franchise online for free.

    3. Re:Article Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention copyright infringment either...right?

    4. Re:Article Text by WhiteLudaFan · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the post... some of us are just lazy and hate filling out online info forms. :)

    5. Re:Article Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't be that lazy; you did it for /.

  10. Why poker? by geekmetal · · Score: 1
    Q: Why is poker such a good topic for Artificial Intelligence (AI) research?

    A: Excellent question! Please see the introductory sections of our academic papers, and Darse's M.Sc. research essay for a detailed explanation.

    Excellent indeed! But how about a brief explanation for the impatient?

    --
    There are two kinds of egotists: 1) Those who admit it 2) The rest of us
    1. Re:Why poker? by xTown · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Limit Hold 'Em is a game of patterns. There are a lot of variables to take into account--position, pot odds, expected value, number of bets/raises already in, your cards, and many many more. You make playing decisions based on all of these variables. For example, in late position with few callers you can consider playing cards that you would fold in early position. Then there's bluffing and semi-bluffing.

      Look at "Positively Fifth Street" by James McManus. He talks a little bit about the Alberta project and the rationale behind it.

  11. Poker? by Mister+Black · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess?

    --

    You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.
    1. Re:Poker? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Flush the bombers...get the subs in launch mode...we are at DEFCON ONE.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:Poker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here."

      > Get life
      You switch off your computer, walk around outside, smile at a nice girl, go for a drink, back to her place, take her to your parents, go on holiday, get married...

    3. Re:Poker? by Geldon · · Score: 1

      I perfer tic-tac-toe...

      i win
      i lose
      i win
      draw
      draw
      draw
      draw
      draw
      draw.....

  12. Not always what you expect by Kombat · · Score: 5, Funny


    I played strip poker with this computer I met in university once. Things were going great until I popped off the cover and found a positively ancient motherboard.

    Gross! It was like I'd just walked in on my Walkman(TM) while it was rewinding.

    --
    Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
  13. It's all about the odds by Katamai · · Score: 4, Informative

    To create a poker AI you just have to figure out what the odds are of getting something after your first hand. Then based on odds the computer will decide which cards to get rid of and which to go for. This will typically result in the computer not going for the long shot royal flush and instead going for the safer full house which is more likely to happen.

    A computer theoretically could be as good or even better than the average human at poker. It is able to calculate the odds of winning and is therefore able to make the best choice possible.

    What would be really amazing would be if the computer was able to calculate based on how many cards other players turn in and adjust itself as neccesary.

    Can you imagine having to try to look at the computer and imagine if it is bluffing? Talk about poker face...

    1. Re:It's all about the odds by BigBadBri · · Score: 1
      Er...

      The bot plays Hold'Em.

      It's a bit harder, and a lot more involved, than simple stud poker.

      --
      oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
    2. Re:It's all about the odds by pizen · · Score: 3, Informative

      Your thoughts on odds are valid. However, the AI here plays Hold'em, which is very different from Draw. In addition to calculating the odds it has to account for the betting of each player on the different streets. It would be interesting if it could tell if a player was playing slow or just limping in. It would probably be difficult to figure from just one hand but over the course of a session the computer (just like real players) is going to pick up on the betting habits of the players. When I get off work I'm going to go try this thing out. If it's better than me it can only help improve my game.

    3. Re:It's all about the odds by Transient0 · · Score: 1

      > This will typically result in the computer not
      > going for the long shot royal flush and instead
      > going for the safer full house which is more
      > likely to happen.

      Actually, a good computer might even be MORE likely to go for the long shot royal flush. It won't worry about odds of winning the hand, but rather about expected payoff vs. risk of any given gamble. If the full house is a hundred times easier to draw to (in that particular situation, but the royal flush has a hundred and fifty times the payout, it is usually worth it to go for the royal flush.

      What would be REALLY impressive would be if the program had an intelligent way to analyse its own cash reserves and decide when to go for the big payouts and when to play more reservedly to avoid going bankrupt.

    4. Re:It's all about the odds by Saige · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you'd be willing to educate those of us with little poker knowledge on the rules of this variation that make it significantly different?

      --
      "You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
    5. Re:It's all about the odds by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      Jeez, have you ever actually been inside a casino? Nobody plays draw poker any more.

      That being said, I used to bust the computer's bluffs all the time on Intellivision Poker.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:It's all about the odds by Kallahar · · Score: 1

      Poker isn't about blind luck. If a computer ONLY ever bet what it had, and what the odds of its opponent having, then it would be very easy to beat. The human knows that if the computer bets, it has a hand, and the human should fold. Similarly, if the human bets big but is bluffing, the computer would assume that the human had made his hand and fold.

      Kallahar

    7. Re:It's all about the odds by Hatta · · Score: 1

      This isn't video poker, there's no fixed payout. The return is only as big as the pot. So the computer will have to calculate the odds on the pot (cost/return) and compare that to the odds of winning. In Hold`em which this bot plays, bets are determined by the rules, so you're only rarely going to see odds on the pot that are good enough to justify hoping for a royal flush. The odds on even just filling out an inside streight are 1:11 if I remember correctly, which is still not usually worth sticking around for.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:It's all about the odds by djp928 · · Score: 1, Informative

      Well, if he won't, I will.

      Hold 'Em (also known as Texas Hold 'Em) is a variation of stud poker that uses community cards on the board to complete the hands of the people playing.

      In the first round, everyone is dealt two cards, face down. These are known as your hole cards. The first round of betting takes place after the hole cards are dealt, with the person left of the "dealer" (in casinos, this is represented by a button placed in front of the player which rotates clockwise around the table with each hand) going first. In the first round, nobody knows what anybody else has, obviously, but watching the patterns of checks, raises, and calls can give you a good idea of how much the person likes the two cards given them.

      After the first round of betting, the dealer turns up three cards face up in the middle of the table. This is known as "the flop", and these are community cards. You get to play these cards in combination with the two you hold in your hand to make the best five-card poker hand possible.

      After the second round of betting, a fourth card is added to the board, known alternately as "the turn" or "fourth street". Another round of betting takes place, then the fifth and final community card is revealed, called either "the river" or "fifth street".

      At this point, everyone still in the pot has seven cards to work with to make a five-card poker hand. After the final round of betting, all remaining players show their hands, and the best hand wins.

      The reason this variation of poker has so much more strategy involved in it is directly related to the community cards. You can tell, at each step of the game, what the best possible hand (called "the nut") is for that set of cards. Say the flop is Ac Ks 5d. The best possible hand so far, including the players two hole cards, is three aces. But, if nobody bet before the flop, then it's a fairly good bet that nobody has three aces, because anyone with bullets in the hole before the flop would probably bet/raise before the flop. With this same flop, say the turn hits Js. NOW the nut hand is a straight, ace high, but that assumes somebody stayed in the pot on 10 Q, which, depending on the betting pattern and the reletive skill of the players, may or may not be likely. Then, say the river turns up As. Again the absolute nut hand is four aces. But by this time, you can probably tell if anyone has that or not by the pattern of their betting.

      If you have two spades in the hole, you have a flush now. It may or may not have been a good idea to have stayed in the whole way with your two spades, but at this time you think you're looking good, right?

      Well, you may have missed that someone with A K, A J, or A 5 has a full house now. Again, you're in a good position to judge at this point whether someone has A K in the hole by the pattern of their betting. A K, especially of same suit, is a strong hole hand, so that person probably would have bet it before the flop, and after catching two pair on the flop, may have felt good about continuing to bet, depending on the pattern of other bets.

      So, instead of just betting on the reletive strength of your hand, you have to take into account what you know and what you can divine of the other player's hands. Hold 'Em is much more strategy oriented than draw or straight stud poker.

      -- Dave

    9. Re:It's all about the odds by TexVex · · Score: 3, Informative

      In Hold 'Em poker, the position left of the dealer posts a small blind bet, and the position to the left of that posts big blind. These "blinds" are forced bets, and as the deal switches clockwise with each hand, over time everybody must make the blind bets. The blinds guarantee action but do it in a very different way from ante.

      Each player is dealt two face-down cards. Starting with theh position to the left of big blind, each player in turn must choose to either fold, call the blind bet, or raise. Play continues around the table until all players have either folded or called the blind bet or any raises. (But the big blind is given an opportunity to raise if other players only called (or folded out). Some hands end where all but one fold out before this first betting round is over.

      There's your first difference between Hold 'Em and varieties of poker where you ante. You have to start making decisions about the strength of your hand very early.

      Once the pot's right, three cards are dealt face-up in the middle of the table. This is the "flop". Each player will build his final poker hand using any combination of his own cards and the community cards in the middle. After the flop, another betting round ensues. Then the "turn" (a fourth community card) is dealt, and more betting happens. Finally, the fifth community card (the "river") is dealt, and after one final betting round the top hand wins.

      There's the other big difference between Hold 'Em and Stud or Draw. The community cards. (Omaha also uses community cards but has more complex hand building rules). When you have shared cards, then your own hand's strength becomes relative. If three cards of the same suit are showing in the middle, and you got a pair of the same suit, then you have a flush. But there are reasonable odds that someone else at the table also has a pair of cards in the same suit. In stud or draw a flush is a very strong hand -- but in Hold 'Em it's not all that rare to see a showdown with two or three flushes in the same suit. (It's not actually possible in Hold 'Em for two players to get flushes in different suits in the same hand, because the majority of the community cards have to be in the flush's suit.) When that happens, the flush with the highest cards in it wins. The inexperienced often reraise aggressively with a low flush, only to lose to the other guy's higher hole card.

      --
      Fun with Anagarams! LADS HOST, SHALT DOS. HAS DOLTS. AD SLOTHS, HATS SOLD. ASS HO, LTD.
    10. Re:It's all about the odds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would make for the most predictable opponent ever. I would lose horribly.

    11. Re:It's all about the odds by edrugtrader · · Score: 1

      5 card draw? are you kidding me? poker face? you obviously haven't ventured outside of your dads friendly smoke filled card game in your living room.

      no one plays 5 card draw for money. no one makes bots to play 5 card draw for money.

      --
      MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
    12. Re:It's all about the odds by adam613 · · Score: 1
      In stud or draw a flush is a very strong hand -- but in Hold 'Em it's not all that rare to see a showdown with two or three flushes in the same suit.
      Or, like I hand I saw recently, three flushes in the same suit that all get cracked by a full house when the board pairs on the river. A computer is much more likely to see that coming than those poor Atlantic City tourists :)

      *thanks God I folded before the flop*

    13. Re:It's all about the odds by TexVex · · Score: 1

      I saw a three-flusher last week. One shouldn't have been raising, and should have folded when both the others raised. One had the ace in the hole, and thought he owned that pot. But the third flush was straight... It was in a limit game. I'm sure they all would have gone all-in if it were no-limit.

      --
      Fun with Anagarams! LADS HOST, SHALT DOS. HAS DOLTS. AD SLOTHS, HATS SOLD. ASS HO, LTD.
    14. Re:It's all about the odds by FryGuy1013 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's not so obvious to me that it's easy for other people to have flushes if you have one and there are 3 of a suit showing. I calculated roughly 1/35 for each person to have it, and 1/55 for a second person to have it. And this is just of games with 3 of the same suit.

      I'm probably doing my math wrong. How many people play per hand on average?

      --
      bananas like monkeys.
  14. Poker face recognition by jmerelo · · Score: 3, Funny

    is it included?

  15. Tells by My+name+isn't+Tim · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You can never learn the true art of poker unless you can read the other players tells, and unless the computer also throws in virtual signs I doubt cyber players could ever climb the ranks.

    1. Re:Tells by zdislaw · · Score: 2, Informative
      You read the article, right? The guy who won the last World Series of Poker had previously only played on the internet. I think that may qualify him for "climbing the ranks." Or maybe he just went right to the top, so techincally did not climb.

      That may not be the "true art of poker" but I'm sure he's not letting it bother him too much.

      --
      bad sig...no donut.
    2. Re:Tells by Blitzshlag · · Score: 1
      I doubt cyber players could ever climb the ranks.

      RTFA! A cyber player WON the world series.

    3. Re:Tells by tmhsiao · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You should read the article. A computer isn't intimidated by bluffing or aggression, and it has a better capability to analyze betting patterns, pot odds, and drawing odds.

      If you've got AK(s) and the computer has a pair of tens, your raising T$100,000 might scare some meat players out, but given the circumstances, the computer might just call you and win.

      --
      "My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama
    4. Re:Tells by BiteMeFanboy · · Score: 1

      That's wrong boyo. Assuming you have a poker AI that plays optimally, you'll get smoked. You can't bluff, you can't look for tells. Your money will soon belong to the AI.

    5. Re:Tells by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      It's called, "total luck" or a "fluke". You'll notice this year he was quickly ushered out of the tournament. No staying power. Anyone can win one tournament, but let's see if he's still around playing poker in 10 years.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:Tells by Guilly · · Score: 1

      Yeah that sure was a smart comment about an article which clearly states that the new world series champion was a cyber player.

    7. Re:Tells by zdislaw · · Score: 1

      I agree that it may have been total luck or a fluke, but I'm confused when you say "this year he was quickly ushered out of the tournament." This year he won the tournament, right (May, 2003)? Was he quickly ushered out after winning? What does that have to do with staying power?

      --
      bad sig...no donut.
    8. Re:Tells by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      That's the 2002 tournament.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    9. Re:Tells by zdislaw · · Score: 1

      Moneymaker won in 2003 (just two months ago) and it was his first tournament, what does the 2002 tournament have to do with him?

      --
      bad sig...no donut.
    10. Re:Tells by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      The article is talking about last year's tournament, which Varkonyi won.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    11. Re:Tells by mike_mgo · · Score: 1
      First Sentence:

      When an accountant named Chris Moneymaker won $2.5 million in the World Series of Poker last May...

      Last Two Sentences:

      No one knows this better than Robert Varkonyi, the unknown who surprised everyone by winning the World Series of Poker in 2002. This year he was eliminated the first day.

      I'm pretty sure they are talking about this years tourney.

  16. Tell me... by gpinzone · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How do you bluff a computer?

    1. Re:Tell me... by deman1985 · · Score: 4, Funny

      You have to type in little poker face emoticons. :-/

    2. Re:Tell me... by Gorm+the+DBA · · Score: 3, Interesting
      RTFA...One of the things covered is that bluffing and reading tells, although effective at taking the occasional hand and a marginally winning strategy, is not as effective as it is given credit in the Poker Community. A better long term strategy is just playing strong hole card positions (especially in Hold-em, where 5/7 of the ending hand is the same between all players.)

      Now, they also say the machine has to be able to bluff, but the trick was to get it to do it the right amount, and at the right time postionally. Reading the opponent isn't as important as seeing the right situation in the cards.

    3. Re:Tell me... by rkent · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You RTFA:

      Peter Muller, a friend of Mr. Rao's who has played against the same bot, said the approximations in the game-theory model left a weakness and limited the bot's chances to do more than break even. Game-theory models usually assume that every player uses the best possible strategy, something that rarely if ever happens with humans.

      "An optimal game theoretic strategy might ensure that you don't lose, but it won't be effective at exploiting an opponent's weaknesses," Mr. Muller said. "The best players learn how to exploit predictability, but don't do it often enough so that the opponents catch on."


      In other words, it's easy to bluff a computer; you just play strongly and it'll assume you have a good hand and probably fold to you. Unless it's got a good hand, in which case you're screwed. Or if it has adoptive modelling that remembers how often you bluff, then you're REALLY screwed. Generally, though, it sounds like the Alberta AI just plays tightly, using "classes" of hands to avoid getting confused by the billions of possible hands, which does limit losses, but doesn't generally win big.

    4. Re:Tell me... by Darth_brooks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What you described is the same reason I got out of playing yahoo poker. The model they were using at the time filled out a table with AI players.

      Players would agree to play check-raise. check around the table (not bet) until an AI bet. Then they would progressivly raise until the AI folded. Annoying as all hell, no fun, and just made sure the twelve year olds got an ego boost from 'winning' a 50k pot.

      A decent AI model for poker could be developed, but it lacks the fundamental strength of poker; the social interaction. Computers will play a great game of chess, mostly because the entire game can be predicted entirely off of what is showing the board. Poker, on the other hand, is all about the bluff. BS'ing the guy across from you. Statistics can tell you what he probably has. But the supposed "art" of reading a player can tell you nearly much.

      This is sort of like the people that use cheat cards at a blackjack table. These cards have a color coded table that tell you how you should play a particular hand (i.e. the dealer has a 6 showing, you've got 13, Hit - stand - double down etc). It takes a way the human element of the game, which makes it fun in the first place.

      A blackjack AI could be written by a novice programmer in a couple of hours, but still wouldn't do that much better than human.

      --
      There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
    5. Re:Tell me... by Psyx · · Score: 1

      You keep one finger on the power switch.

    6. Re:Tell me... by naoursla · · Score: 1

      Poki does opponent modelling. It is my understanding that it takes a large number of hands for it to get an accurate model -- more hands than is generally useful. As of last summer, the creator was still able to beat it fairly easily.

    7. Re:Tell me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same way you bluff a human. Feign greater hand strength than you actually do, through betting and a good reading your opponent. I play poker online regularly at *Party Poker so I know from experience that seeing your opponent is not a required aspect of poker. As the article itself points out, the winner of the last World Series of Poker never played> a tournament in real life before winning the biggest poker tournament in the world. What that means is that there is definitely something to be said about analyzing the betting and behavior patterns of your opponents. On that level, the computer must have a betting and behavior pattern of it's own, as it must follow it's own programming rules put in place by the developers. Thus, when you then sense a weakness, you bet - and hope the computer folds to your bluff. Sure, trying to reverse engineer a poker AI on the fly probably isn't the easiest thing to do, but you didn't hear me complain when I learned my psychiatrist was a stinking robot! Now if you'll excuse me, I have the sudden urge to ask myself in endless loops why I wish to purchase death sticks.. (*Btw, if anyone is interested, they have a $25 bonus deposit going now if you use the code MAGIC when you sign up. Pretty nice deal)

    8. Re:Tell me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's doing a lot more than just playing tight hands. As your quote says, it's using the best possible strategy, assuming your opponent is using the best possible strategy - but the best possible strategy is not to only play good hands. If you do that you won't get as much action on your good hands as if you occasionally bluff. Game theory tells you how often to bluff. It also tells you how often to call your opponents' possible bluffs. You can use it yourself when you play...read Sklansky's Theory of Poker for details.

  17. sign in front of a speak-easy: by Flabby+Boohoo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Poker in the front, Liquor in the rear.

    1. Re:sign in front of a speak-easy: by GlassUser · · Score: 2, Funny

      I really do hope that's backwards. As I hear it:
      "Liquor up front, poker in the rear"
      My way also adds a clandestine, almost speakeasy feel to the poker playing (gambling more recently being illegal in many places, it tends to fit better). Then again, in a REAL speakeasy, yours might be more accurate.

    2. Re:sign in front of a speak-easy: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      liquor and poker all night.

    3. Re:sign in front of a speak-easy: by fehlschlag · · Score: 1
      Poker? I hardly knewer...

      Tribute to Nebo

  18. very interesting by PhysicsExpert · · Score: 0

    Actually the game of poker is etremely interesting from a pure mathematics point of view as equations involved to play the optimum way (as governed by both game theory and match theory) reduce to a version of the travelling salesman problem.

    One of the main problems with building a good form of artificial intelligence for games is the accounting facial expressions. Some of the processors used on the high end chess machines (such as deep blue) actually had some extra instructions on the processor to deal with this.

    --
    All that glitters has a high refractive index.
    1. Re:very interesting by bongoras · · Score: 1

      really? Do you have any more information about this? Deep Blue has extra instructions for dealing with facial expressions? Please provide some additional information -- as far as I can tell, Deep Blue is a pure chess program. The IBM technicians type in "b2 - b4" and Deep Blue responds "g7 - g5," etc. Does it have a camera? Or do the IBM techs type in "Kasparov grimaces. b4 - b5." Or are you totally full of shit?

    2. Re:very interesting by brotherscrim · · Score: 1

      in chess, all of the pieces are known and there is a strict set of rules that governs their actions. In poker, sometimes lying is all that is required to win. Comparing these programs to Deep Blue shows your ignorance.

    3. Re:very interesting by brotherscrim · · Score: 1

      oops, replied to the wrong parent. Of course Deep Blue didn't have the ability (or necessity) to read facial expressions.

  19. Addiction? by Qzukk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now, he is able to play every night between 10 p.m. and 3 a.m. while his daughter sleeps in the next room.

    If this was UT or Quake, this entire article would be about how he was destroying his life, and getting ready to go on a rampage.

    But instead, its just a game of cards, and he's gambling with his family's money, but thats OK.

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    1. Re:Addiction? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Is the object of the game of poker to kill virtual representations of other people?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:Addiction? by Guilly · · Score: 1

      This is so sad, so true, and represents how people in our society think.

      They understand gambling, so gambling online must be like gambling in a casino and it's Not That Bad.

      They don't understand online shooters, or violent games, or even computer simulations, so it must be:
      1) addictive
      2) full of graphical violence
      3) only for kids
      4) driving everyone insane.

      This is the same reason why so many federal courts will fail to judge recent cases correctly or why old senators vote for dumb laws.

      We're run by people who stopped living in the 80's. :)

    3. Re:Addiction? by TrekkieGod · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If this was a gambling addiciton piece, there'd be slashdot posts complaining of how you can indeed just play money games for pure entertainment without being considered an addict.

      I definitely agree with you, they're taking this "gaming addiction" too far, but there are plenty of gambling addiciton pieces out there as well...count your blessings that they're not making it to slashdot.

      I'm tired of hearing about gambling addictions. I think of them the same way you apparently think of computer gaming addiction stories. I don't want to hear more about the poor people losing they're house to pay their gambling debts...if they were dumb enough to bet what they couldn't afford, they're not addicts, they're idiots, and they deserve to lose the money. Likewise, if some idiot commits suicide because something happened to his online Everquest character, that's one less idiot populating the world.

      -1 flamebait, or whatever, but I have karma to burn and since you've pushed a button, I want to voice my opinion.

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    4. Re:Addiction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It should be!

    5. Re:Addiction? by Rudeboy777 · · Score: 1

      Oh come on. The article isn't about addiction, but addicted or not, playing poker is this man's full-time job. He is skilled enough so that in the long run he will make money.

      This is possible with UT and Quake too, although somewhat different because in high stakes Counterstrike you will be playing against the world's best, but in poker you will often be playing with the poker equivalent of "newbies".

      --

      From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc

    6. Re:Addiction? by edrugtrader · · Score: 1

      ... thats probably all he does!

      spends time with his family all day and raises his daughter right, all on the money he makes in 5 hours of card play a night. i do the same thing and make a good living. while your daughter is home all day or in day care and you rot away in a cubicle... AND THEN go home and play UT or Quake and continue to ignore your child. no, this is not a game, it is a job.

      --
      MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
    7. Re:Addiction? by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      excuse me? They try and pass an Internet Gambling Prohibition every year! This years version already passed the house and is currently waiting to come up in the Senate.

      I suppose you can argue that they think its "Not that Bad" as it hasn't passed yet, but they don't leave the gambler alone anymore than they leave the gamer alone.

      As a gambler and a gamer, I wish they'd leave me alone. Twice.

  20. The Algorithm by taped2thedesk · · Score: 5, Funny
    while(handSucks)
    {
    screen.displayPopupAdForPorn(); // distract user
    hand.throwWorstCardUnderTable();
    hand.pullAceFromSleeve();
    }

    Of course, the bot doesn't cheat:

    """Q: Why are the bots such filthy rotten cheaters?!?!

    A: Poki does not cheat. Poki connects to the online server just like any other player, and does not have access to any other player's private cards. The server's random number generator is sound (although not as sophisticated as most online servers). Any weird or suspicious outcomes are simply the result of luck . This is a normal part of poker. If you believe otherwise, you are more than welcome to play somewhere else.""" (from the FAQ)

    I mean, come on - it's a normal part of poker :)

    1. Re:The Algorithm by JUSTONEMORELATTE · · Score: 1
      while(handSucks)
      {
      screen.displayPopupAdForPorn();
      }
      ....I mean, come on - it's a normal part of poker

      Note to self -- gotta play more poker with this guy.

      --
    2. Re:The Algorithm by kryptoknight · · Score: 1

      Since you didn't set the handSucks boolean to true (even after pulling the ace from sleeve method), this code will result in an endless loop.

      Actually, it'll probably display 4 popup ads and pull up to four aces, then crash.

      Error: "AI has performed an illegal operation...."

  21. R.T.F.A. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thank you

  22. I limit my online gambling to two games: by burgburgburg · · Score: 1

    knock hockey
    curling

  23. Rubbish by thrice · · Score: 0

    Since so much poker strategy is reading human expression/emotion to glean the quality of your opponents hand, wouldn't this require computers to have emotions to truly play poker in an effective manner?

    I can see it now; HAL, R2-D2, that kid from AI and
    the robot from Lost In Space gathered around the poker table in those silly costumes fromt the Dogs Playing Poker picture.

    1. Re:Rubbish by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Don't forget Data, now there's a robot who can play poker.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  24. Difference AI and live poker. by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 4, Funny

    With an AI opponent you play so the opponent loses their clothes as fast as possible.

    With a live opponent you play so you both lose your clothes at approximatly the same rate.

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
  25. Could have been worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same here, but in my case I was shocked to find a dongle where I expected a socket.

  26. NYT WANTS TO STEAL YOUR THOUGHTS! by Thud457 · · Score: 5, Funny
    Please, please, PLEASE! I cannot stress this enough, never, ever, for any reason, register to read a New York Times story! THEY WANT TO STEAL YOUR BRAIN!

    If you register online to read a story, their spybots automatically pin down your location using an algorithm based on the well-know scientifical principal that YOUR COMPUTER IS TRANSMITTING AN IP ADDRESS! Using this "IP ADDRESS", they can scan MSN mapquest and find out where you live. Once they have that information, it is a simple matter to send a priority override to point the NSA mind-control satellites (when they're not otherwise busy zapping agriglyphs into English wheatfields) at your house to read your mind. Then they steal your precious intellectual property, which they license to SCO!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:NYT WANTS TO STEAL YOUR THOUGHTS! by redbaron7 · · Score: 1

      You forgot the RFID which they transplant under your skin, whilst you're asleep!

      RB

    2. Re:NYT WANTS TO STEAL YOUR THOUGHTS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Make up bull$#!t details. They have no right to the information you provide, so you have no obligation to tell them the truth. (*)

      Women living alone are supposed never to reveal their sex to anybody who doesn't need to know it. Suppose some cyberstalker was tapping internet connections at random till he found one that belonged to a woman - and then began stalking her and eventually raped her?

      It is actually illegal anyway to target advertisements based on a person's answers. For instance, let's suppose the advertisers want to sell shoes to women and video games to men, so they show you an advert for a pair of shoes or a video game depending on what sex you said you were. But they've just violated the Sex Discrimination Act 1976. A woman has a right to see video game adverts and a man has a right to see shoe adverts.

      Anyway, nobody has any right to know what is between my legs unless they are proposing marriage.


      (*) This of course does not address the real issues ..... A compromise would be to make up one bogus account and share it widely.

    3. Re:NYT WANTS TO STEAL YOUR THOUGHTS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YHT. YHL. HAND.

  27. Never knew how many people don't RTFA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Wow... Almost all the top-level posts on this article can be replied to with RTFA...

    I didn't realize just how bad the problem was..

    1. Re:Never knew how many people don't RTFA... by scalis · · Score: 1

      Wow... Almost all the top-level posts on this article can be replied to with RTFA...

      I didn't realize just how bad the problem was..


      Well... Did you just RTFA for the first time and found out?
      I have seen you around and read your previous postings Mr Anonymous Coward, and you dont seem to RTFA yourself very often.

      --

      True ravers don't need drugs
  28. For non-robots, a simplified poker method by RobertB-DC · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have never been any good at poker... in high school, playing nickel-ante poker, I lost about $25 to just one of my friends. Typically, after about 15 minutes of play, everyone was playing with "my" money.

    But recently, I spent some quality time with a hand-held poker game, and played the "hundreds or thousands" of games as described in the article. Not enough to become an expert, but I did come up with a technique to make my 100 credits last longer.

    I hacked away as much complexity as I could. The heart of my method is to forget about the effect of getting two cards you need. The chances of getting two specific cards is something like 1/52 * 1/52 = 1/2704 -- too small to care about. So the entire method is about the next card.

    Of course, I put it online: How To Lose Less At Video Poker. At the risk of slashdotting my own server, I'm curious if anyone can find any obvious flaws in the method.

    I found this Java-based tutorial that purports to generate the "optimum payout" -- it often disagrees with me, presumably because it's trying for big payouts. My method doesn't promise profit, only smaller losses.

    An important disclaimer: I've never used my method with any non-trivial amount of actual cash. Here in Texas, there are video poker machines in every Quickie Mart, but I just don't see the appeal. Now, if they would put in a Pac-Man machine...

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
    1. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by swanton · · Score: 1

      Near the bottom of your page: But what are the chances of drawing two hearts? 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/8 = 12.5%

      ... um no

    2. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by TSMABob · · Score: 1

      The chances of getting two specific cards is something like 1/52 * 1/52 = 1/2704 -- too small to care about.

      I don't think that's correct. Granted there are 52 cards in a deck, but don't you have to take into account the fact that you only get 5 cards, and that all the cards are not dealt? Plus, I know I get a pair of anything way more than 0.03% of the time.

    3. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by Zardoz44 · · Score: 1
      My statistics is very rusty so I'm not going to correct with specifics, but I know enough to say that most of his calculations have the right intention but are usually incorrect in calculating probability.

      The problem with the cited example is that you need to take into account that you're drawing 5 cards. So we have 1/52 * 1/51 * 1/50 * 1/49 * 1/48. Then, since you're only looking for two hearts, it could look like this: 13/52 * 12/51 , but your first heart could be one of the first four. And your second heart could be any one of the next n - 5 cards.

      Cards probability was done to death in university, but I promptly forgot most of it.

    4. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by Hatta · · Score: 1

      I think he's talking about if you need two specific cards to fill out a straight or something. You are right, the chances of getting any pair are much higher than the chances of getting a specific pair. Kind of like the "birthday paradox", which states that in a room of ~26 individuals there is a 50% chance that two of them share a birthday. Not really paradoxical, most people just incorrectly assume that you would need 365/2 people to reach the BD50.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by brakk · · Score: 1

      If you're just looking for a pair of *anything* then that wouldn't be the right percentage anyway.

      You're just looking for two matching cards, any two. Getting your first card is guaranteed 100% 52/52 getting a card after that is what counts. There 3 cards left in the deck that you can use out of 51 cards total left in the deck, so your chances of getting one of them would be 3/51 or 1/17 or 5.88%.

      What he is talking about is getting two *specific* cards to complete a hand. Like if he had a 7, 9, J of hearts and was looking for the 8 and 10 of hearts to make a straight flush. Then it would be around 1/2704. Actually it's a little better than that because he already has 3 cards from the deck that he knows aren't the ones he's looking for. I think it would be something like 2/49 for the first card and if he got it, then 1/48 for the second card which would come out to 1/1176 or 0.085%

    6. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by Rudeboy777 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Good effort, but the Wizard of Odds site you linked to uses mathematical exhaustion as opposed to you general heuristics.

      There is an outstanding product out there to train you to play "optimal" video poker (that is, make the mathematically best choice for any 5-card deal. A crippled shareware version can be found here, but this proprietary software is worth many times its' price: WinPoker (sorry Windows only, and no I have no financial incentive to plug)

      Never forget that Poker (against other people online or in person) and Video Poker (where you try to complete the best hand to win a fixed payout) are COMPLETELY different games with very little shared strategy.

      --

      From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc

    7. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by edrugtrader · · Score: 1

      VIDEO POKER?!?!?! are you seriously talking about VIDEO POKER?!

      people this article is about serious poker... texas hold'em... omaha... 7 card stud...

      VIDEO POKER IS NOT POKER...

      these people built REAL AI analysis tools to analyze other players play and correct strategy. a huge accomplishment. video poker bots have been around since 5 days after the game was invented... its obvious... its a dumb mans game.

      and moderators... score: 5 on an obvious off topic post? come on.

      --
      MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
    8. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by nothings · · Score: 1
      Sadly, you know just enough to shoot yourself in the foot.

      As swanton noted, 1/4 times 1/4 does not equal 1/8. That's why your 4.1% is so much below your 12.5%--it should have been 6.25% in the first place.

      If you keep a pair of twos and an 8, you might draw an 8 and get two pair. But if you just kept the pair of twos, you might draw a 9 first, and then there's a chance you'll draw another 9 in the next two cards. I know you're not looking more than one card ahead, but this is a place where that's a mistake; your odds of getting two pair are almost identical whether you keep the 8 or not. I think it is actually slightly better to keep a card you already have, since there are three more of those out there, whereas if you just keep the pair, the first card you draw might be another 8, and now there are only two left to make further pairs with; but this effect is much smaller than the effect you describe, and I'm still oversimplifying it.

      The chance of drawing the 2^ and 3^ are not 1/52 * 1/52; the chance of drawing the 2^ then the 3^ is 1/52 * 1/51, and the chance of drawing the 3^ then the 2^ is 1/52 * 1/51. To put it unambiguously, the chance of drawing either the 2^ or 3^ is 1/26, and the chance of drawing the remaining is 1/51 (overall odds is 1/1326).

    9. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by mopslik · · Score: 1

      ...I know enough to say that most of his calculations have the right intention but are usually incorrect in calculating probability. I think he was referring to the fact that 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16, not 1/8 as stated.

    10. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      The chances of getting two specific cards is something like 1/52 * 1/52

      Only if the order matters. If you can get them in either order, the chances are 2/52 * 1/51.

      On your page there are some (rather large) errors.
      Keeping a kicker when drawing to a pair is, well, crazy. Your chances of making two pair are slightly higher, but your chances of making trips and especially quads is greatly reduced.
      Also, on a "normal" draw poker machine, it's not correct to go for an inside straight rather than keep a high card. In fact, it's so wrong that it's better to throw away your whole hand rather than draw to the inside straight.
      I haven't closely looked at the rest of it, but you close with the statement "You will lose." On a "9-6" machine (full house pays 9, flush 6) with perfect play you'll lose less than half a percent. If you figure in casino incentives (cash back, comped meals and rooms) it's a pretty good deal. There are even some wild-card video poker machines that with perfect play yield slightly greater than a 100% return.

    11. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by daffmeister · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, if you just keep the pair of twos (drop the eight) you're giving yourself another chance to draw another two.

    12. Re:For non-robots, a simplified poker method by Tyler+Eaves · · Score: 1

      There's an even bigger problem. Out of the 49(!) remaining cards after the first 3 are dealt, assuming the 3 are of the same suit, there are only 10 (NOT 13!) of that suit remaining. So your actual odds are actually 10/49, basically 1/5, not the 1/4 you imply.

      --
      TODO: Something witty here...
  29. "Artificial Intelligence" in Poker- INDEED by somethingwicked · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Artificial Intelligence" is common in home poker games-Its called BEER

    The trick is to make sure your opponents are sufficiently fueled by "Artificial Inteligence" and you will come out way ahead

    --

    ---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---

  30. The New York Times by cabalamat2 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Can Slashdot please do one of the following:

    • Not cover stories from the New York Times; there are plenty of other web news sources that don't require registration
    • Arrange with the NYT so that links from Slashdot don't have to register
    • Put an option on users' preferences page so that they have an option never to see any story with a link to the NYT.
    1. Re:The New York Times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut up. What the HELL is the big deal?

    2. Re:The New York Times by LauraScudder · · Score: 1

      Hey, stop your bitching.

      I personally 1) like being pointed to interesting articles anywhere they appear, which they happen to quite often in the new york times, 2) think that it's wrong for slashdot to circumvent another news agency's policy - and a rather painless one, really - simply for 'user convience' and 3) would never use such an option (see 1), but you're free to email an editor about it.

    3. Re:The New York Times by tsvk · · Score: 1

      Many news stories that normally require registration are available directly via the Google news search.

      For example, reading this New York Times poker story without registering is as easy as searching for "poker new york times" and clicking on the third search result.

    4. Re:The New York Times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you please do one of the following (but preferably all three):

      - Get a life
      - Remove the pointy stick from your ass
      - Quit your pointless bitching

    5. Re:The New York Times by sbszine · · Score: 1

      Or better still, the person submitting the article could post a non-rego link.

      --

      Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

  31. Unix friendly online rooms? by unperson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Okay, I know this is a lil' off topic, but as one of the (presumably) many slashdot readers who play poker...has anyone found an online poker room that you can play for real $$$ where I don't need to download some windowsware to play?

    I've toyed around with the java-based yahoo rooms (which last I checked, didn't have a real $$$ option). All of the big name poker rooms that I've seen through friends require a windows based client. I've been dying to give it a try.

    I'd also be interested in anything anyone wants to post under this thread about poker room security. Are there many malicous online poker room opponents out there? I've seen a few cases where someone was about to sweep in a hold'em hand, holding the nuts(*), only to be booted off the game at the last second...any thoughts?

    (*) Attn Trolls: This is an actual poker term.

    1. Re:Unix friendly online rooms? by Borodog · · Score: 1

      www.pokerroom.com has java client interfaces that I play under linux. Real money and everything.

      --
      Insert humorous sig here.
    2. Re:Unix friendly online rooms? by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      As someone who plays poker for money occasionally, I think i'll steer clear of the Unix boys who are far less likely to be complete morons (a plus in poker unlike CounterSrike.)

  32. Oh this is great by paiute · · Score: 1

    now we got Uniblab. Next we get the little jet cars that fold up into a briefcase? The nine hour work week, though - now that's science fiction.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  33. Good, let's forget about chess... by feidaykin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Chess "AI" is really pointless. All that is needed for playing chess is a fast computer and lots of stored moves, mainly because the number of possible moves is quite finite.

    While poker is an interest game to tackle, I think I'd have to agree with others here that it is more of a people game and hard to a machine to understand the nuances of "bluffing" and other things that we silly humans do.

    What I'd really like to see is computer AI able of playing the Japanese/Chinese board game called Go at advanced levels.

    As it is right now, the best Go AI is only at intermediate levels it terms of skill. Here is a URL comparing Chess to Go...

    http://www.villagenet.com/users/bradleym/Compare.h tml

    --

    "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    1. Re:Good, let's forget about chess... by Psyx · · Score: 1

      Does this mark the beginning of the online Go parlors?

    2. Re:Good, let's forget about chess... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Online Go has been around for a while. Check out the Internet Go Server for one. I recommend Cgoban as a client. apt-get or emerge should get it for you. If you don't know how to play, the The Interactive Way to Go is highly recommended as a tutorial.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Good, let's forget about chess... by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 2, Funny

      goddammit, This article wasn't even about Chess, and you managed to bring it up and make a post about Go in the same freaking post.

      No one gives a shit about go except for people trolling Chess articles...

  34. At The Sands by mustangsal66 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Bad enough I have to play with newbies at the blackjack tables, now I have to play with HAL at the poker table...

    "Fold Dave..."

    --
    Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
    Sig changed for readability by G.W.
    1. Re:At The Sands by Nukenbar2 · · Score: 0

      I have always wondered about this. Does playing with a moron at the table really affect your game? The only way I see that a bad play could truly affect your game is were a player hits where he should not, thereby taking the card that the dealer would have had. Even if that was the "bust card" that the table was looking for, does that really affect the game if he took it? Even if the card count is really in your favor, the probability that the bust card will come on the first card but not the second can't really affect your winnings over the long run since probably just as often the bad player gets the small card and the next card is a bust card. Does anyone have any way to disprove this?

    2. Re:At The Sands by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      I assume you are talking about Blackjack. You are totally correct. You will also find that many people disagree with you. It is very frustrating playing blackjack next to some superstitous person who makes rude remarks if you play 'wrongly'.

  35. Poker? by sglider · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I Hardly know her.

    --
    War isn't about who's right. It's about who's left.
  36. Sigh.... by peterwayner · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a big fan of fair use. I hate the DMCA. But behavior like this just makes me wonder. The free registration at the NYT is not that much of a pain. Sheesh. The newspaper world is being very cool, at least compared to the music and movie business. Let them make a few bucks on the ads so they can pay me.

    1. Re:Sigh.... by rnd() · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Doing things like this will result in more censorship of Slashdot comments... do you really want that?

      --

      Amazing magic tricks

    2. Re:Sigh.... by mugnyte · · Score: 2, Informative


      Correction: Nothing stops the NYT from showing ads to us without the reg'd required. The registration bit is a farce, and everyone pumps nonsense into it. Why put it up as mandatory? Does the NYT try to spam its readers from that input? Wouldn't it be our duty to combat spam by intentially filling it with junk?

      I let a lot of sites hog MY paid-for bandwidth with ads. This doesn't mean i have to type "Mr Goober" as my registration name on each one. The NYT is way behind in web concepts on this, IMO.

      FYI: The google cache and the NYT's own backup copy are other sources of articles - registration free.

    3. Re:Sigh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've signed up to the NYT with false information. So by reading the cut'n'pastes on Slashdot, i`m doing them a favour by not skewing their statistics any more than they already are, by not going there.

    4. Re:Sigh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NY Times is in fact having a beef with the Google cache.

    5. Re:Sigh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good point. When I signed up I did my best to portray an 80-year-old hooker.

  37. /. Guide to Software Design by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

    1. Decide on project
    2. Design kick ass web site
    3. ???
    4. You know this one

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  38. The Object by TrekkieGod · · Score: 1
    No, the object of the game is to make the *real* person on the other side lose all their money.

    Not to say the blame is on the the game (see my other post responding to the the parent of yours), but if you're going there, understand what it is you're talking about.

    --

    Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    1. Re:The Object by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      So hold on...winning in a fairly contested game of skill is somehow *MORE* repugnant than killing people and laughing as their blood spatters in a realistic fashion?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:The Object by TrekkieGod · · Score: 1
      So hold on...winning in a fairly contested game of skill is somehow *MORE* repugnant than killing people and laughing as their blood spatters in a realistic fashion?

      Like I said, look at my other post, because I'm NOT of the opinion that the game is at fault in either 3d shooters or poker...HOWEVER, if you were to blame games for anything, let's compare the both of them, shall we?

      3d shooter: Kill "virtual representations of people" as you've mentioned. No damage to the actual person, possible psychological damage to you, if you believe in that stuff (I tend to believe it can do damage only if you already have psychological issues, in which case just about anything in normal life could trigger it, not just games).

      Online poker with real money: Possible damages fall in two categories. If you're addicted you can lose all your money and your family money...bye bye college fund for your child, bye bye house, etc. If you're not addicted, you play reasonably, and either lose minimal amounts of money, or win big and ruin the real lives, not "virtual representations" of the addicted ones.

      Now...like I said in my previous post, go read it, goddamnit. I think the blame of such a thing falls squarely on the shoulders of the addicted individual, NOT the game. If you find online shooters repugnant, don't play it. People who think gambling is bad shouldn't gamble.

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

  39. How Computers can win at poker by tpengster · · Score: 5, Informative

    Poker is primarily an odds game, that is to say it is all math. There are three places where a decision has to be made. The first decision is, "Should I pay to see the next card?" This is called Drawing. The second decision is, "I have a decent hand, but my opponent raised me. Is he bluffing?". The third decision is, "Should I try to bluff?".

    Odds come into play everywhere. When you are Drawing, you must have the correct odds or else you will lose money in the long run. That is to say, if you have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting your straight on the next card, you must have at least 3:1 odds to Draw. (The pot must have $3 for every $1 you pay). There is also the concept of "implied odds" - predicting how much will be in the pot at the end of the hand and not just at the present.

    When deciding whether or not to bluff, you must know the odds of your bluff succeeding, and add that to the odds of you hitting your out on the next card. At that point the calculation becomes the same pot-odds calculation described above. This involves some reading of your opponent; you have to know how often he will call, and how often the bluff will be sucessful. Luckily, computers can be pretty good at modeling and seeing patterns, probably much better than humans. It seems that Neural nets and other well-developed AI techniques would be very good at modeling these behaviors and predicting future ones. Calling bluffs will require the same type of knowledge.

    Some have asked how it's possible to read patterns on the internet. Some people don't really have patterns in their game, they just call everything. These people will lose because they put too much money in the pot, they don't have the odds for the bets and calls they're making. Mostly, decent players have patterns in how they bet, for example they will bet when they only have 4 out of 5 flush cards. (A Semi-bluff). Computers have an advantage here because they can introduce a random element that humans cannot reproduce.

    The recent winner of the World Series of Poker, Chris Moneymaker, had never played in a live game until the WSOP, he had only played internet games. This probably gave him good fundamentals in reading people based on their bets, and good math fundamentals.

    Some have also questioned the wiseness of playing internet poker, since it is just "gambling". Well I'll tell you a little secret, poker isn't really gambling, poker is a skill game and especially with so many bad players out there who think it is just luck, hoping they'll get lucky, it's easy to win money. That's why the same players consistently win thousands of dollars online. For more information on poker strategy and reviews of online casinos, see this site: PokerTips.org

  40. Poker!!! by nanosmurf · · Score: 1

    Markian Hlynka! That's not a REAL name. I call your bluff.

    1. Re:Poker!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right. I admit it. My real name is Nicolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky.

      Markian

  41. It could be harder than one could imagine... by Mensa+Babe · · Score: 5, Funny

    Some people I have spoken with few days ago about this research told me they are worried that if the intelligence is too high this AI could refuse to risk its money gambling... I am not quite sure if they were serious though.

    --
    Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
    1. Re:It could be harder than one could imagine... by IntelliTubbie · · Score: 1

      Some people I have spoken with few days ago about this research told me they are worried that if the intelligence is too high this AI could refuse to risk its money gambling... I am not quite sure if they were serious though.

      What a strange game ... the only way to win is not to play.

      Cheers,
      IT

      --

      Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.

  42. A Poker Computer Program That Bluffs by rpiquepa · · Score: 1

    In "Poker playing computer will take on the best," the Edmonton Journal wrote last June (the article is no longer available for free) that there was a new poker player in town "that never sweats, never gets tired, never tips a hand and can still bluff with the best of them.

    University of Alberta artificial intelligence researchers bet their new poker computer program will be the best player in the world, perhaps within a year." And why will it the best player? Because it bluffs.

    "You have to bluff," says Jonathan Schaeffer, who heads up the university's Games Research Group and who already has a world-champion checkers computer program under his belt. "If you do not bluff, you're predictable. If you're predictable, you can be exploited."

    This kind of program could be used whenever you have to deal with imperfect information, like buying a new car. You can find more details and references in this summary.

    1. Re:A Poker Computer Program That Bluffs by javabandit · · Score: 1

      "You have to bluff," says Jonathan Schaeffer, who heads up the university's Games Research Group and who already has a world-champion checkers computer program under his belt. "If you do not bluff, you're predictable. If you're predictable, you can be exploited."

      Poker is like chess, as many others have pointed out. A computer bluffing (randomly or not) would not help it against a world-class player.

      Why? Because good players do not bluff at random. Good players will only bluff in situations where the other player has a history of taking the bait.

      And the only way that a computer would have a chance to outbluff a human player would be if it was already programmed with the opponent's playing tendencies.

      And even in that case, the opponent, knowing he is playing a computer, could just alter his bluffing and baiting strategy in some stupid fashion and still beat the computer. Kasparov has proved this time and time again by beating computer opponents by making totally idiotic and unorthodox moves, unnecessary sacrifices, ugly openings... against computers to throw them off. Those same moves would have been nails in the coffin against equally matched human players.

      In games like poker, I don't think a computer will ever be able to beat a world-class player at his/her best.

  43. Why Not Have the Computer Play for You Perfectly? by nherc · · Score: 1
    I've wondered why no one has come up with a system to play online casino poker with a "perfect" algorithm.

    Start it with $50 bucks and let it play...

    If the case is that you would always lose, even playing "perfectly" what are your chances playing imperfectly?

    If you win more often than not... let it play nightly and up it's bets.

    What am I missing?

    --
    'He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.' - Douglas Adams
  44. From the code download page by tundog · · Score: 1

    This is not the full source code to Pokibot. Do not ask us for it. If it is not posted here, it is not open source.

    Not open source? <saltyPirateVoice>Man yer battlestation maties! We'll slashdot'em into submission </saltyPirateVoice>

    --
    All your base are belong to us!
  45. please, please put down the computer! by Thinkit3 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Invite several people over, buy a deck of cards and a pack of beer, and play. Just turn off the computer if you feel the need to code a quick AI in lisp. It will be there for you later, ready to greet you.

    --
    -Libertarian secular transhumanist
  46. Poker isn't Blackjack by andrewdm · · Score: 1

    You're missing that the bot is playing against people (presumably). Don't think of poker as being like blackjack, think of it as being like chess. There is always a right play in blackjack. In poker, as with chess, there are plays that are better than others but not necessarily a right play. The randomness of the cards is not a significant factor (the poker bot would only make "good" bets (reward>risk)), but the randomness of the players is. A check-raise bluff might be a good move, but a bot can't predict whether the player who is on tilt is going to call, re-raise or fold. Nor can it force players to play rationally and therein lies the problem. Look at players like Gus Hansen and Dan Negreanu who are completely unpredictable but win money because they can bully the table around.

    A bot could run disadvantaged blackjack (you can't count cards online, so the best you can do is play perfect basic strategy and eat the ~0.5% house advantage), but that's an inherently losing proposition (and the casinos have banned them now anyway).

    1. Re:Poker isn't Blackjack by Pii · · Score: 1

      Gus Hansen is a wildman. I've been watching the World Poker Tour all season, and while there are no shortage of aggressive players, I haven't seen anybody bully a table like Hansen does.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
    2. Re:Poker isn't Blackjack by CapnWacky · · Score: 1

      Huh? Blackjack is more like chess than poker in that it is a game against the cards (or the chessboard). Poker is uniquely human in that bluffing (playing sub-optimally) is an option that adds randomness and can have a positive value. Doesn't help in blackjack...

      In fact, I'd wager that there always is a right move in chess... we just don't have a computer that can look a hundred moves ahead to solve it yet.

      --
      god's lonely man
    3. Re:Poker isn't Blackjack by ChaoticNeutral · · Score: 1

      Not to detract from Hansen because he certainly plays his hands well enough when he does get them.

      But is pretty easy to bully a table when you are catching the kind of cards he has been catching.

      While poker is ultimately a game of skill and knowledge in the long run, luck has certainly played an important role in Hansen's victories.

    4. Re:Poker isn't Blackjack by majestyk2000 · · Score: 1

      Given the choice between 10% better skill and 10% better luck, I think I'll take the luck. I can work and improve my skill.

  47. Texas No-Limit Hold Em by Ridge · · Score: 4, Informative

    Poker has had quite a resurgence as of late, both due to online play and media coverage. Chris Moneymaker was on Letterman one night and the World Poker Tour can be caught on the Travel Channel and sometimes older ones on ESPN or ESPN2. It's actually fairly enjoyable to watch. Nothing like seeing a guy go all in with for 800 grand on a stone cold bluff whilst his opponent has a pair (you see the hole cards on the tv broadcasts, at least on the Travel Channel). Some talk smack, some wear sunglasses, some play conservative, though most are fairly aggressive. I've learned quite a bit by watching them play. As others have mentioned and as the article alludes to, the game is more mathematical than reading your opponents, but that's not really what I've seen from watching the pros on the WPT. It's all about the people, the chips, the cards, and the math all seem secondary to your read on your opponent and your style and reputation. It's all very interesting, I suggest you catch a broadcast.

    1. Re:Texas No-Limit Hold Em by Kintanon · · Score: 1

      You can get to the final table in a tournament off of straight math skills without ever even LOOKING at most of your opponents. But once you hit the final table it's a whole new game. If you play strictly by the numbers you'll find yourself with approximately as much cash as you started at the table with facing down a couple of guys holding 5x as much who are going to put you to a decision for your chips almost every hand.
      Of course, once you make it to the final table who cares about winning? Just dog it out as long as you can and take your third place and the $150K+ and go home happy.>:)

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    2. Re:Texas No-Limit Hold Em by johnkoer · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with you that from watching the WPT on the Travel Channel I have learned a lot about the game of poker. It has helped me win a little bit of money from my friends... I will occasionally bluff a hand on purpose and make sure everyone knows I bluffed it. Then when I have a good hand people think I am bluffing ;).

      BTW, the WPT is on the Travel Channel Wednesdays at 8PM and like 2 or 3PM on Saturdays.

    3. Re:Texas No-Limit Hold Em by ChaoticNeutral · · Score: 1

      The complexion of no-limit hold-em changes dramatically when games go short-handed, which is typically what is being televised on WPT. Making plays becomes essential when you get down to two or three people and you are playing every hand, because only very rarely will a flop actually hit someone's hand.

      For ring games with a full table, playing the odds is the much safer approach because with nine other opponents, it is much more likely for one of your opponents to be holding an actual hand.

      The great players are the ones who are able to change gears according to game conditions.

    4. Re:Texas No-Limit Hold Em by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .....I will occasionally bluff a hand on purpose and make sure everyone knows I bluffed it. Then when I have a good hand people think I am bluffing ;). ....
      Can you come up with a strategy that isn't (probably +30 years old that "works") didn't think so. You are what the old poker players call a fish.... come up with a "new" algorithm that goes against most odds) that MAY win in the short time you play but poker is not mathematics but money management guess this also applies for all gambling it's not what you have nor what you "could" have it is how much money do I risk seeing if you have what I think you have.

      How much is your pocket A's worth to me if I have a nut hand. Sorry a good player will milk them pocket A's to their maximum while minimizing their own "losses"
      THIS IS THE SECRET TO SUCCESSFUL POKER Maximize profit and minimize losses. (there will be both so your problem is to win more than you lose!)
      Bluffing a computer is childs play.... try bluffing when your opponent knows he/she/it has the nuts and is willing to put the $ up to prove it.
      Yes you will win sometimes but you will lose more in the long run than if you didn't try to bluff. Bluffs are for weak opponents that don't know better.

  48. Re:Why Not Have the Computer Play for You Perfectl by Axiom_1 · · Score: 1
    You're missing the click-through agreement you have to accept in order to play. It says you won't use any bots. If you get caught, they would simply confiscate all your money (winnings AND buy-in). That's also in the click-through agreement.

    You're also missing a way to get a bot to interface with the online poker room. But this could be built.

    Other than those two minor points, you have a good scam. It's simple enough that somebody has probably already done it. They just wouldn't want to share it, since it's quietly earning a living for them.

  49. Ro-Sham-Bo by chad_r · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This reminds me of strategies for programming Ro-Sham-Bo (Rock, Scissors, Paper). The "safest" strategy would be to randomly choose rock, scissors, or paper every time. Your winning percentage would approach 50%, but so would your opponent's. Ah, but if you're competing against other pairs of players, and they're all following that strategy, then it's just dumb luck who will win. For there to be any point to the competition, you have to assume your opponent has some non-random strategy, such that you could beat it and get >50% wins if you could figure out what it was. Of course, your opponent is making the same assumptions about you. And so begins a world of strategies on how to make your opponent think you're being predictable, when you're really just fooling him into making a choice you can predict. Of course, if your opponent knows you're fooling him, he will then know you're intention and gain the advantage. And so on and so on (similarities to the Iocaine Powder sequence from the Princess Bride are more than coincidence).

    I just wanted to point that out as a counter to the posts advocating a purely statistical approach in which the program folds anything not likely to win. In the optimal case (there is no house rake, no ante, and no bluffing) it is as interesting as flipping a coin to see who wins. And even a small amount of bluffing will cause it to lose.

  50. Re:Why Not Have the Computer Play for You Perfectl by swordgeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, there are a few things to consider.

    1) It's a violation of the rules to do this on any of the online poker sites. If you're busted, you'll lose ALL of the money you've paid in. (buy in, registration, etc.) They might even press charges.

    2) Perfect poker strategy is only perfect in a vacuum. When playing against real players, you can make more money by playing imperfectly. In fact, if you always play perfectly, the game will change to conpensate for you, and leave you playing poorly.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  51. Does anyone play checkers anymore? by swordgeek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No, it's not a troll. :-)

    But a few years ago, checkers was solved as a mathematical problem. There is a computer program that can play a perfect game of checkers, all the time. That project was headed by Jonathan Schaeffer, one of the people involved in this Poker AI project.

    Just a footnote, to let you all know that this group has some serious history in gaming AI.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:Does anyone play checkers anymore? by rnd() · · Score: 1

      Corrrect. Darse Billings is the guy who created the RoShamBo programming competition a few years ago. Very cool stuff. His personal website has more on this.

      --

      Amazing magic tricks

    2. Re:Does anyone play checkers anymore? by plastik55 · · Score: 1

      Well... no. Checkers on a full-sized board has not yet been "solved" in a mathematical sense. Schaeffer's program "Chinook" won the world chanpionship against human competitors, but it has not been proven to play a perfect game.

      --

      I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!

    3. Re:Does anyone play checkers anymore? by ctid · · Score: 1
      But a few years ago, checkers was solved as a mathematical problem. There is a computer program that can play a perfect game of checkers, all the time. That project was headed by Jonathan Schaeffer, one of the people involved in this Poker AI project.

      Checkers has not been "solved" and will not be for a very long time. What Schaeffer did was to beat the World Champion with his program, Chinook. You can read about this in his excellent book, "One Jump Ahead". I highly recommend this book.

      --
      Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
  52. An advantage? by Quill_28 · · Score: 1

    Since the guy would won the World Series of Poker, was strictly an internet player, wouldn't this be an advantage?

    None of the other players would have had time to study him and know his habits, yet he would have alot of experience playing poker.

    Then again I rarely play poker, so I could be missing something.

    Thoughts?

    1. Re:An advantage? by Sogol · · Score: 1

      Yes, but one you can be sure he has now lost.

    2. Re:An advantage? by Kintanon · · Score: 1

      He did indeed lose that advantage. After winning the 2002 series with relative ease he got the crap totally kicked out of him in the 2003 series. His play style didn't evolve between the two tournaments so everyone knew how he played.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    3. Re:An advantage? by Pii · · Score: 1
      You've got two different players confused...

      Moneymaker won the 2003 tourney just this past May (And is thus the reigning Champion).

      The 2002 winner (Robert V., from Brooklyn, NY) was put out in the early rounds of the 2003 tourney, not that it's important...

      There are plenty of tournament winners that get their asses kicked on the very next event. Play style, skill, and betting strategies are all part of the equation, but at some point, no matter how good you are, eventually everyone runs into a tough beat because sometimes the other player simply has good cards.

      In Limit Hold-em, the better players should always end up winning... Limit is lacking the "all in" feature of the No Limit game. In No Limit, a fluke can put the better player out of the game.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
    4. Re:An advantage? by Kintanon · · Score: 1

      Hrmm... That's what I had heard (and thought) originally, then I saw a news article linked to by someone here that said otherwise. I'm gonna go check the WSOP website and find out for sure...
      No luck there, that site apparently hasn't been updated since last year.
      I guess back to my original thought that Moneymaker did win it in 2003... We'll see how he does next year.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    5. Re:An advantage? by ChaoticNeutral · · Score: 1

      FWIW Varkonyi did not necessarily "get the crap kicked out of him" in the 2003 Series. And it certainly did not have anything to do with his "playing style". He had the extreme misfortune of pocket kings on the same hand that Scotty Nguyen picked up pocket aces. There are very few circumstances where ANY player is going to get away from that hand without losing all their chips.

  53. God damn it, read the article before responding by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's about low stakes Texas Hold'em. As I'm preaching to people who don't follow links, I'll explain that in hold'em, your hand is drawn from the best five out of your two personal ("pocket") cards, plus five common ("board") cards that everyone can see and use. You can even just play the five common cards if they're better than that 8 in your pocket. You tend to get strong hands, but then again so does everyone else. Hold'em is generally played with big tables, so chances are that someone has a strong hand each round. You don't get extended rounds of raising, and there are no huge wins to be made. Coming out on top of a night of hold'em involves long term risk management, not a single guts-or-glory Hollywood dramatic climax.

    As for bluffing, go ahead and try. There are only four rounds of betting on each hand. Experienced players will fold early, so you won't get much of their money anyway, and excitable noobs will tend to stick it out and call you out with their regular full houses and flushes, making it expensive for you to try to bluff. You'll quickly find yourself playing to your hand, not to the other players, and you won't (indeed, can't) get yourself into a steely eyes, car-keys-in-the-pot ego clash.

    I wish, I wish, oh how I wish people wouldn't predicate their discussions based on what they've learned from Mel Gibson movies.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  54. better feature.. by Suppafly · · Score: 1

    A better feature would be a tutorial on how to count cards. If you don't know how to count cards or use decent strategy, the old crappy poker AI has a pretty good shot at winning.

    1. Re:better feature.. by Pii · · Score: 1
      Card counting is a Blackjack thing... Not a poker thing.

      You can't count cards in Poker. There's a single deck, and a fresh shuffle every hand. Additionally, you don't get to see the cards of the players that end up folding. There's simply no way to determine if that card you need is still in the deck, or if one of the other players has it in their hand, or if it's already been folded.

      In Blackjack, you get to see every card, so you can keep a running tally of how many facecards have come and gone between shuffles. Most Casinos, however, utilize 6 decks of cards at their Blackjack tables, so the fact that an Ace has come and gone doesn't mean what it would, advantagewise, in a single deck game.

      Professional Blackjack players count cards thusly (and this is rough, as I'm not a card counter, nor a professional Blackjack player):

      • High Cards left in the deck favor the Player (Bettering the chances of being dealt a good hand, or building a good hand on a hit, and bettering the chances that the House will bust on a forced hit from a hand with a value of less than 16)
      • Low Cards left in the deck favor the House (Reducing the odds of the House busting on a forced hit with a hand less than 16)
      • A Player keeps a running Tally of what has been dealt
      • Every High Card that goes by is assigned a negative integer value
      • Every Low Card that goes by is assigned a positive integer value
      • Toward the end of the shuffle, if the running Tally is in Positive Territory, the Player should be betting aggressively (The greater the tally, the more aggressively the bets should be)
      • Toward the end of the shuffle, if the running Tally is in Negative Territory, the Player should be betting conservatively (The lower the tally, the more conservative the bets should be)

      It's all predicated on the ability to determine when the conditions favor the Player, and when the conditions favor the House. You maximize your betting when the conditions are favorable for you. You minimize your betting when the conditions are favorable to the House. It's a very effective method for finding the sweet spot on the risk v. reward curve, and managing your stack.

      In spite of what you may have heard, particularly from the Casinos themselves, there is nothing illegal about counting cards in Blackjack. You cannot be arrested. You cannot be fined. It's perfectly legal.

      However, just like any other business in the world, the Casino reserves the right to refuse anyone's business for any reason. If they suspect you are a card counter, a ringer, they can and will ask you to leave. You'll go into their database, and the Casino's are sharing more and more of their information between each other. You will end up Blackballed.

      If you're going to Vegas to play Blackjack, you need to be playing it at Binion's Horseshoe... They have more Single Deck Blackjack games than any other Casino in Vegas.

      --
      For those that would die defending it, Freedom
      has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
    2. Re:better feature.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The old crappy poker AI has a pretty good shot at winning. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating. Replies to your comments are sent to you. A better feature would be a tutorial.

  55. Wow, that's kinda neat... by StressGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The first ever complex program I wrote was, in fact, an attempt to make an intelligent poker player. It was written in BASIC for an IBM with an 8086 processor and about 7-feet long when printed out. It made ASCII representations of the cards and I had my own random number generator that used the time the program started as the "seed" value. It had an independent routine for "bluffing" and made it's more rational decisions based upon what I was to eventually learn was a pretty decent implementation of "fuzzy logic". ...problem is, it played lousy poker...and I could never figure out why. At least it followed the rules though.

    --
    A goal is a dream with a deadline
  56. Game theory... by f97tosc · · Score: 1

    To create a poker AI you just have to figure out what the odds are of getting something after your first hand. Then based on odds the computer will decide which cards to get rid of and which to go for ... It is able to calculate the odds of winning and is therefore able to make the best choice possible.

    Except, often the best strategy is not to play in a determinsistic way, but to have a probability distribution of different hands. In Poker this is essential, because if you play deterministically (i.e., always play the same way for the same hand) you are too predictable - you never bluff when you have a poor hand and when you have a good hand everyone else will know this so you don't get any action.

    Tor

  57. helluva poker face by butane_bob2003 · · Score: 1

    I had to say it: A computer would have a helluva poker face. No really, I am not going to bother reading the article now (maybe later), but is this article about probability factoring on a card deck, or are we talking about a computer that plays poker? Knowing what cards your opponents hold is half reading the cards, half reading the opponents.

    --


    TallGreen CMS hosting
  58. YOU FAIL IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The moderator that modded your post insightful LIKEWISE FAILS IT!

    The article's about a cyber player that rocketed up the ranks and burned the ladder behind him on the pathetic non-cyber players.
    He didn't climb. He fucking owned.

    And this is me, owning you. You ignorant ass.

  59. nice little game by crow976 · · Score: 1

    realpoker is a pretty nice little online poker game. They don't tell you what hand you got, so you've gotta analyze things yourself... and you see when the other players are checking their cards so there's still some body language going on.. wish they had more avatars tho but still... good place to get some practice before going to the real thang! i've only played play money tho.. so players probably play more aggressively than they would in a real money situation..

  60. Hey! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your sig is stupid.

  61. Loki by Ka0s23 · · Score: 3, Informative

    There was a large push made by some great mathematicians in coordination with poker proffesional to make a poker "robot" they called Loki. What they found was over a large period of time it could be profitable at low limit tables, playing limit hold'em. However, once the game changed to no-limit, there was simply no way for it to deal with the fluctuating betting amounts. It could pick up on patterns and beat many online limit players. I would be willing to bet that they could design a sophisticated enough program to beat even higher-limit limit hold'em games, but I'm guessing right now they weren't quite confident enough to trust it with a serious bankroll! A poker bot which could play in no-limit tournaments would be almost impossible to program, as anyone who has played in no-limit tourneys know, its very different from cash games. Sorry if anyone allready posted about this, I didnt have time to read everything...

  62. a modest proposal by chickenmonkey · · Score: 1

    I'm sorta new here, so this may have been discussed before...

    There seems to be a lot of "RTFA" traffic not only about this article, but also on this site as a whole.

    Would it be too much of a burden on the article submitters to submit with their writeups a list of 3-5 multiple choice questions on the salient points of the topic? Would it be too hard to block posters who haven't "passed the test"? Sure, people could get around it by guessing or reading just parts of the article, but at least some wouldn't. I think most wouldn't, but I don't have real proof of that.

    This could be used to prevent people from posting AND (just as important) moderating ignorantly.

    People could read the article and the postings, but they couldn't make it harder for me to enjoy an informed discussion without being informed themselves.

  63. Re:Poker? (first Go post) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go is so much better than Chess. Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of Go?!

  64. Dumbass alert! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And to thinkI wasted 30 seconds of my life calling you out on your ignorance. You're not going to bother reading the article, but you're going to ask others to summarize it for you? What, your wrist is too tired from beating off that you can't be bothered with another click?

  65. heh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's a good one! :-)

  66. Re:Why Not Have the Computer Play for You Perfectl by Nukenbar2 · · Score: 0

    This has already been done on blackjack. Online casinos check a player against so-called "perfect play." At some point they say they can tell if a person is playing with the assistance of a computer and will ban the account.

  67. Counting cards? by Aropax20 · · Score: 1
    Can you count cards at poker?

    I mean, it uses a single deck, reshuffled after each hand, doesn't it?

    I gather card "counting" in blackjack etc involves monitoring the cards coming out of the shoe over many hands and trying to figure the statisical likelihood of certain cards appearing at a certain time?

    All your aces are belong to us...

  68. samantha fox by lemody · · Score: 1

    when this is released to consumers, i will use the poker AI to beat c64's 'samantha fox strip poker'!

    --


    class he-man extends man!
  69. Re:Why Not Have the Computer Play for You Perfectl by CentrX · · Score: 1

    How's the site going to know that someone is not using one of those cards that has the statistically appropriate play for each possible blackjack hand? Or do you mean that it will somehow detect if a program is making the perfect plays based on counting cards...which again wouldn't happen because presumably the blackjack site is playing with a computer-generated pseudorandom shuffle where every hand is a new deck.

    --

    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
  70. Re:Why Not Have the Computer Play for You Perfectl by CentrX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're playing against other people. If you did play "perfectly" you would never lose at poker, but it's impossible to play perfectly, because perfectly means that you would have to know whether other players that are after you would bet/call/fold/raise (thus you would always know the exact pot odds), which means that already with this perfect play you must analyze the individual player. With this, actually, the computer can do fairly well if it can see a huge amount of the previous hands that a person has played and thus they will be able to know the person's general strategy. But, then again, part of the game is changing how you play. If the computer, or another person, has you pegged with a specific playing style, and either the evaluation is inaccurate for whatever reason (players do get incomplete information) or the player varies his playing strategy, which good players do. But what I mean by all this is that, in order to play "perfectly", the computer would have to have an algorithm that defines the perfect play at each point in the game. Statistically, there can exist a perfect way of playing particular hands so that you will win money in the long-run. However, you probably have to integrate a certain amount of randomness into your own play so that you're not predictable (because, otherwise you're only playing hands where you have a good hand already or a good draw, thus everyone knows what you have by what you bet and will fold when you have a hand, and bet when you do not bet, thus causing you to lose money or at least not make money) and human behavior analysis of other people so that you can look at a person's behavior and their betting, correlate it with the person's past behavior, and use that to help you to decide what to do. This is a big task, with a lot of human so-called "intuition" and mathematical analysis based on a person's past performance.

    The other part of this is that even if you're playing in a statistically perfect manner and it's working (probably because you're against bad players, or you switch tables enough), it's not necessarily the best way to play against you're opponents. Because it's statistically perfect, you might be making money from your opponents. However, with another strategy, one that's tailored to your opponents rather than tailored to the statistics of the card, you could devise a strategy that can net you a lot more money than the statistically perfect strategy. And, of course, you're also not varying your strategy, so someone can pick up on it totally and play so as to not give you any money, or someone might pick up on little things that lower the amount of money you make off of hands.

    You can't play "perfectly" because you're playing against people, and you're playing against them in a game with, literally, gazillions of combinations, both in card possibilities, in the betting of a particular hand, and in how your opponents act.

    --

    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
  71. Although... by CentrX · · Score: 1

    This is not to say that this strategy wouldn't make you money online because there's so many players, and there's so many bad players. However, it wouldn't be difficult to lose big because an opponent figures your "perfect strategy" out, and it's not going to work against good players. You put your computer program at the final table of any tournament and it would probably fail miserably.

    --

    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
  72. However, by overunderunderdone · · Score: 1

    One of the things I noticed wastching these tournaments on TV is that a good number of the players, especially the younger ones, have strong backgrounds in math. Several of the bio's that they have done were of players with degree's in math from places like MIT or CalTech. There is definitely a human angle that involves reading your opponent but that kicks in after you have done the math. You have to know what the "rational" play is before you can make a judgement based on the human element to do the "irrational" play. Reading the other player only helps so much if you don't really know what the odds are and how big a risk you really are taking. There are a few dramatic stone cold bluffs in the televised WPT games but mostly there are a lot more semi-bluffs, playing aggresive with a not so strong but not hopless hand - you have to know the math before you even know whether or not you are bluffing. Most people are probably just intuiting this and only really *know* when it is painfully obvious. The pro's, especially the more mathematically astute ones, are calculating the odds with much more precision.

  73. Listen - they want a REAL test? by TerryAtWork · · Score: 1

    Give the thing 10 grand US and send it to Binion's for the World Poker Championship...

    THEN we'll see how intelligent it is.

    (Of course, the computer will probably show up late, hung over and broke, it being his first time in Vegas, after all....)

    --
    It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.