Slashdot Mirror
Xbox Hackers, Linux, the DMCA, And Modchips
HardcoreGamer writes "The New York Times has a long article on Xbox hacking, why Microsoft hates it, and who does it (Google). 'Xbox hackers are exploiting Microsoft's business model, which is to sell Xbox hardware at a loss...' but Microsoft doesn't make the money back on software -- as it planned to -- if you decide to load up Xbox Linux. Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180? The reporter talked to the IDSA; Andrew Huang, author of 'Hacking the Xbox: An Introduction to Reverse Engineering'; a Manhattan exec who hacked his Xbox and said 'The reality is that if you could bypass Microsoft's operating system you would end up with a fairly powerful computer for less than $200;' and others. The article discusses the DMCA, modchips, the Xbox Linux Project and lots more. A good -- if long -- read. A shorter version of the story is at the International Herald Tribune. Best quote? 'Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.'"
Since when is this word part of the capitalist vocabulary ? Doesn't seem to consistant with the ongoing lawsuits, FUD wars, hypocrisy, etc.
Exploiting other company's business model flaws is the basis of the world economy, so let's not be stupid, if they don't want flaws to be exploited, they've better not have flaws in the first place. Too bad, it's too late now.
theefer
"We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.'" Yea, we've seen some _Very_ good examples of that in the past...
you obviously don't read the NY Times very often. many of their articles are 5-6 times that length or longer.
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
I think the P3-733 for 180 comparison is not completely valid.
The XBox is not really extensible like a regular PC. How many PCI slots do you have? How many USB/FireWire ports? As a console, many 'regular' features unnecessary for a console that we take for granted are not included.
This kinda limits the usefulness of the XBox.
It's kinda like those deals on the Dell server machines you can get with some creative configuration and coupon applications.
Sure, you get for $300 a full powered server machine...but it has no AGP slot. So much for gaming...
Are there updated drivers for the XBox video card available at all?
But I'm just a little too lazy to even fill in those few forms. It has to be, click, BAM... story... =)
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
Here
We're embracing and extending the XBox.
..where stealing is ok as long as it's not GPL'd.
I thought that the XBox selling costs covered variable costs (ie the parts in the box), and so even if it doesn't entirley cover the fixed costs (ie the factory) at low volume it will do eventually when enough units have been shipped has been reached?
If this is the case then XBox Linux helps MS by raising the volumes (not to mention giving them better sales figures to lie about to their game makers).
If of course they are selling below variable cost then well, count me in for loads of the things - I have no problems attempting to bankrupt the swine who injected cash into SCO to prolong their litigation.
Beep beep.
Digital Millennium Copyright Act
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So...
They're all for innovation and creativity... but you should respect their own...
Yet you can't innovate or create new items with their hardware that you PURCHASE, because they won't respect YOUR innovation and creativity.
Sounds like they want their cake and to eat it, too.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
...for me is the the features that the hacks offer. I don't own one but I've been looking into the hacks after learning about them. Streaming video and music over ethernet, dvds, vcds, not to mention the standard xbox offerings. I still haven't made the plunge but I'm strongly considering cleaning some space for one next to the big TV. Now if MS looses money on me (I will buy games, but probably only a few) that just makes it even sweeter!
...tell them to stop messing things up with their SCO endeavours!
Microsoft is pressing charges against people that blatently point out their flawed business plan. When other companies sell "at a loss" it does mean they actually lose money, just that they don't get enough profit from it to make it worth it.
And you know because it's MS they've never be able to fix all the exploitable (security) holes in the XBox.
64MB is a problem too, yes you can solder on another 64MB if you're skilled enough. But that's a lowly amount of RAM by modern standards.
You can get a whitebox for $200... Perhaps not *quite* as powerful, but close enough.. AND you get ports.. and no silly mods needed to run what ever you want..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
To claim that they are doing it for price is a bit off. The people do it so that they can feel in some way they have gotten away with something. They are told that they shouldn't, then they do, and they gain bragging rights. They gain a tiny amount of control in a world that has little of it for the average perosn - they are briefly a David to the Goliath of Microsoft. The money isn't an issue.
True, to get a PIII 733, a NVidia graphics card, etc etc for $200 is a good deal at first glance I suppose.
Were I in the States, I could go to pricewatch and order me up some parts.
PIII 733 by itself is $67, you figure you still need a motherboard and case, that is easily another $80 at least, and then you need the graphics card...
But looking again, you can get a PIII 1G and the motherboard as a combo for $65.
You can get a case for about $30. You can get the video card for about $80.
So a better system for cheaper... and the thing is, that is only if you are still looking for the PIII, if you stepped up to an Athlon XP, you would then get far more processing power, and you would only be spending a little more.
Granted, that doesn't help you if you have no clue how to put together a system, and you only have $200... but I have a feeling the type of person willing to hack a perfectly good game system, and then run Linux on it, is going to be able to put together a computer system on their own.
In the end, I think the monetary reasons for hacking are non-existant, aside from those bad at math.
It is the fun factor and the thumb-your-nose-at-MS factor.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
Granted, it doesn't quite have the same graphics horsepower, but hey, it's cheap!
They are requesting respect for their innovations, huh?
IIRC, the whole idea was to take existing off-the-shelf PC parts that used an existing PC architecture and put them in a box that could easily mass produced with a very short time-to-market and an OS that allowed existing developers to leverage their existing skills.
Hmmm... That sounds familiar... now where have I heard that before?
Oh, of course! That's what made BG a gazillionaire in the first place!
I'm not against MS wanting to control a closed platform they developed, but I am insulted by their insistance that this is an IP issue. It's not an IP issue, it's a PP (physical property) issue. If they don't like people voiding the warranties on their hardware, they should have made their CDs spin backwards like Nintendo.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
"Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations."
My response to quote, "How long have you worked for Microsoft?"
--
Adobe's anti-counterfeiting softw
its a bit more then 'because I can'.
The Xbox is designed to 'fit in' to the entertainment center..
Getting a pc small enough to 'fit in' would cost more then the average white box..
And if its JUST for use for video/dvd.. why bother with building something that sticks out like a sore thumb anyway
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That situation sounds good, except you need to throw in a DVD drive and a harddrive. Also, whatever motherboard you have is going to be pretty old and not have an ethernet controller or decent sound. You'll probably need a scan converter to hook your vga output to your monitor too.
:)
I think it's silly for people to spend so much effort on a non-upgradable box(except the HD) but the money issue is there, and they want to, so let them play
-Bucky
> to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations.
Every version of winders I have installed on *my* computers walked all over the boot record. This is respect? I had no interest in hacking one of these, but after an asine statement (yes, it is double plus good) like this, I believe I will look into doing so.
This hard-nosed approach is a clever marketing move to play you X-Box hackers for rubes, I think. Not that it's like it's a bad thing to be taken advantage of this way; X-Box has a superior lineup of games and better hardware than the other systems out there anyway.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
All evidence I've seen regarding Microsoft 'losing money on the X-Box' is related to dolts who think they can go to pricewatch.com and figure out what an X-Box costs to produce.
Hey - jackasses - you're not Microsoft, and you're not purchasing millions of bits of hardware at a time. You aren't getting bulk discounts. You aren't making deals.
Anyone have any actual evidence that Microsoft loses money on each X-Box?
"My friend's second cousin's husband's acquaintance works for.." isn't evidence.
As the quote on the last page of the article says, the Xbox is also quieter and smaller than a PC, which makes it ideal for a living room media player. Obviously the Xbox must have some convenience advantages over a PC or MS wouldn't be selling them in the first place.
Microsoft must include a clause in the Xbox "EULA" that when purchased you _must_ buy 3 Xbox games at full price in order to ensure M$FT gets its profit.
Sounds like a monopoly trying to flood the market with cheaper goods to kill off the competition.
Its actually the #1 reason monopolies should be controlled.
Is anyone awake out there, or have we lost our rights?
God spoke to me
If the PRIMARY purpose of modchips is to install linux (not circumvent copyright protection of games) then the DMCA is not violated.
All you need to rent your right to make modchips is money for a good attorney.
As an example, the condemnation by the Commercial Court of Nanterre, France, on 27th September 2001 of Microsoft Corp. to a penalty of 3 million francs in damages and interest, for violation of intellectual property (piracy, to use the unfortunate term that your firm commonly uses in its publicity).
The link is to an english translation of the response by the Peruean congressman Edgar Villanueva to US pressure to abandon open source plans.
Fine Fine .. we won't copy Microsoft Bob.
Sheesh.
> Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity
Yep, sure. As long as their customers aren't being innovative or creative, they're cool. Big Bro... I mean Microsoft retains that right for himself alone.
Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
That is where we want to go today!
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
"Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?"
Right here:
http://www.bzboyz.com/store/product4127.html
"The New York Times has a long article on Xbox hacking, why Microsoft hates it, and who does it (Google)"
;-)
So now they're saying Google hacks Xboxs.. isn't that a bit of a sideline from the search engine business, or perhaps they're replacing their cheap PC farms with even cheaper Xbox farms
Sure the dual ported pci Geforce4 is a bit slow for games, especally when driving both monitors.
But for ee cad and software development they work great.
Also the ULTA SCSI 320 15K RPM drive helps out quite a bit.
$700 for a dual capable xeon with ultra scsi 320, gigbit either and pci-x still seems like a value, Its aufwully big though.
please don't flame
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Well, if microsoft doesn't take legal action soon... bu the time a linux cd is being sold, it will be too late....
I beleive it is stated within the copyright laws... it's a form of neglect... if you don't use them, you lose them.
Thanks for the half-baked economic theory. Where were you when the rest of us were in Econ 101?
This has nothing to do with a "business model" (a vacuous phrase if ever there was one). And it doesn't have anything to do with Microsoft's intellectual property rights.
MS would have a valid point about IP rights if they were selling a book containing the source listings for the X-Box. But, they aren't. The physical manifestation of that code in the X-Box hardware is real property ("real" as in "real estate"), not intellectual property. It's the same for Bill Gate's house. The architect's blueprints are intellectual property, but the house is real property.
So, if MS wants people to stop running some other OS on the X-Box, they should look to their engineers, not their lawyers.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?
um, i don't know, ebay?
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
I am fucking sick of hearing this stupid saying (who knows the roots of it?). If I buy a cake what the fuck else am I going to do with it ... keep it on display for some ants to get a free feed ... OFF COURSE I AM GOING TO EAT IT!
Ahhhh that feels better ... another day ... another rant completley unreleated to the topic ... my job as a /. boob is done for another day :)
No PCI slots, why would you need one? You have ethernet and audio. Why would anyone upgrade their video drivers for linux anyway...anyone actually play tuxracer? USB ports...it has 4, all of the controllers are misshaped USB controllers. All you need is one adapter and a hub and you're all set.
Ok, so you can't upgrade the RAM, but it has all a 733MHz needs. You think all this limits the usefulness of the XBox...I think its the best thing that ever happened to linux, no hardware compatability issues for xboxlinux because everyone that runs it has the same hardware. Its cheaper than web_tv. People are in the process of turning the xbox into a PVR. I would rather use my xbox on the TV than any other device, its perfect for it...almost like it was made for it or something.
Just looking at this, I can think of something I'd like to do, and it might work.
Suppose I wanted to set up a Virtual Linux server? What I might do is buy one DELL server, 4-5 XBoxes,2 ethernet boxes, and one copy of 007, allowing a modless Linux reboot. That would be a serious system, and expandable, too.
Although 65 MB of RAM isn't a lot, if you don't have a lot of processing to do, then it might be just fine.
Moreover, Microsoft said that they're more focused on mod chips. That being the case, it looks like the modless hack might not be such a bad idea.
My big question, though, would be whether XBOX Linux is up to the task. For example, is there an XBOX GCC? are all the ports well mapped? Ideally, is there an XBOX Debian?
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
The EFF's Fred von Lohmann made an interesting point in the article:
While I certainly believe in the right to tinker with an Xbox you paid for and use by yourself, I see a shady area when it comes to interaction with other (unmodified) Xboxes - like on Xbox Live. I'm talking about cheating here, but I think the same can be applied to use of compromised software in an online environment.
Online PC games have been plagued by cheating players since day one, because of the ease with which their client software can be modified. Xbox Live does not have this problem yet (so far cheaters have been exploiting existing flaws in Xbox games), but I fear this will not last for much longer if easy, modchip-less Xbox hacks become commonplace.
Which brings me to my point: just how far should your right to tinker extend? What if it interferes with my enjoyment of the product? Especially since I paid for the product too, and I'm using it for its intended purposes while you're not?
This is one of the main concerns of many Xbox Live users like myself, and I haven't seen this issue addressed properly by either the media or the Xbox hackers. Can anyone enlighten me? How do Xbox hackers feel about this matter? Are they taking it into consideration?
Hee-hee. Dying tickles!
You left out the CD/DVD reader - which the XBOX has - that pushes your homebrew box over the $200 mark.
No electrons were harmed creating this post, though some may have been subjected to electrical and/or magnetic fields.
What about all those countries that don't have WalMart (thank god!)?
As the article said computers are more expensive in Europe and other places. That's where the difference between the price of an XBox & a white clone makes the XBox a tempting choice.
- Alex
According to Linux Journal, the xbox runs off a celeron processor. I also highly doubt microsoft is still taking a loss on manufacturing these things... the cost of hardware has been halfed since microsoft first introduced the system.
Everyone always complains how Microsoft loses money on their xbox's and how their plan was to make the money off of the software. That's great but who cares what was in their plan, it's hardware, I'll do what I want with it. If they aren't making money, then maybe they should charge $500 for a box and make even less money. Who really cares what their plan is?
Your Momma's so fat she makes emacs look like nano!
From Full Disclosure:r e/ 2003-July/010895.html
Clickable link
http://lists.netsys.com/pipermail/full-disclosu
[snip]
For an unknown reason this check is not performed on the audio (.wav) and font (.xtf) files. Unfourtunately for Microsoft there exists an exploitable integer underflow vulnerabilitiy within the font file loader which can be exploited with a malformed font file. When the XTF header is processed the dashboards reads a 4 byte blocksize field from the font file. This is expected to represent the size of some datablock including the 4 bytes of the size field itself. The blocksize is then allocated and the sizefield is copied into the beginning of the buffer. This is already a possible overflow bug when the field contains the values 0..3. Due to memory alignment this is not exploitable. But then the blocksize is decreased by 4 because the dashboard wants to read the rest of the block into memory. Obviously values of 0..3 will underflow when decreased by 4 and this results in the dashboard wanting to read up to ~4 gigabytes of data from the font file in a f.e. 3 bytes buffer.
Because the XBOX malloc()/free() implementation is also storing control information inbound and is similiar to the Windows 2000/XP heap allocators this bug is exploitable and allows execution of arbitrary code. The attached proof of concept code shows that exploiting is possible with offsets that are equal on all dashboards and XBOX versions known.
[/snip]
Less you forget, you'll need:
Hard Disk $32
Memory: $22
DVD-ROM: $29
K & M: $10
Add that to your:
P3 733: $67
P3 Mobo: $25
Video: $44
Case&PSU: $22
Total: $251
Compare that to an Xbox at $180 or even just for fun, an Mini-ATX nForce2 IGP (Integrated Geforce Video, TV Out, Sound, NIC) + an Athlon XP 1700 for $125 and you've got yourself an even better box for less.
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the
Ah but you will be assimilated... why resist? Eventually there will only be 3 companies left standing .. Microsoft, Wal-mart and TimeWarner..
Heh.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Microsoft sure has a funny way of looking at innovation. The original meaning of innovation is to take something that already exists and to find a new use for it. This is NOT what Microsoft does. They take something that already exists and use it in exactly the same way that someone else does or plans to and then renames it. (cough! Indrema) They've done this over and over, yet they claim to innovate. If they had it their way, they'd claim they invented the GUI too...
Un-news
You don't like Wal Mart (a store that sells inexpensive stuff), but yet you justify theft in order to obtain a product for a lower price. Sounds like your beliefs are fairly at odds with those of the rest of the civilized world.
Amazing magic tricks
But looking again, you can get a PIII 1G and the motherboard as a combo for $65.
Where? No I am serious I am looking for resonably priced P3s and can't seem to find anythig under $300 for the CPU.
BTW... if anyone can answer this, I'd appreciate it. Over at Xbox-Linux, I see debian dists [nice], Mandrake, and some others. I see reference to the 007 hack. But I don't see any combination that allows a simple Linux user to pop 007 and one or two CDs, and install Linux.
Does anyone know if that will be coming out? Because if it does, then I seriously need to consider this solution.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
They failed!
While Sony makes money on people running linux on PS2 since they need to buy the linux kit, Microsoft loses money when people use linux with xbox.. . although I wonder how serious that loss is. Does anyone what is the percentage of people who buy an xbox just for screwing Microsoft?
Btw: I am looking for a gf...
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss
For those hacking the X-Box, here's the challenge: Prove you aren't doing this just to one-up Microsoft and you truly believe that you should be able to do whatever you want with the hardware and the software. How to prove it?
Challenge 1 - Get an Apple G3 or G4 or G5 to boot Windows XP
Challenge 2 - Get OS X booting on a PC
I will respect their IP rights. I don't pirate MS software or anybody's else's software.
However, MS has to respect that once you buy something, you have the right to do whatever you want with it. If I want to buy an Xbox and use it as a door stop, that's my right.
I'm guessing that you either live in some sort of time warp that is a few years back, or you live in another country than the States.
Check out www.pricewatch.com - but if your country is anything like where I live now (Bermuda), it is a pain in the ass to get stuff shipped to you from the States.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
If buying a $200 xbox causes Microsoft to lose $100, not buying one forces a loss of $300. The second option is easier and does more harm. Someone looking for a cheap PC or a game should buy an honest one from an honest vendor.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This is another example of giantkiller technologies like XML , P2P and Linux. The battle lines are still being drawn, but the core message is the same - businesses have to adapt to the new model, because it's not going away. Notice how PS2 modders have been pre-empted with PS2 Linux? That was no accident. That was just smart thinking from Sony (albeit rare). Wait until XBox sales start flagging, and watch the reins come off the modding community. I'm sure even Microsoft's CEO is capable of some smart thinking.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
Modding is fine, you bought the box, MS is using its massive fiscal burliness to force its way into the console market, losses they suffer because of it is their own damn fault in the same way that if I sell my Lemonade at a 5 cent loss per cup I can't get angry when someone buys it all.
I do however think, that the modding thing has no place on the x-box live service since the only thing that it does is make cheating easier and god do I ever hate cheaters. Banning people off of that service for mod chipping seems fair enough to me. Voiding the warrenty, locking out software, do what ever you want MS, but don't tell me It's against the law to use my x-box for spare parts or as a cheap server if I want to. If you can't cope with the losses, I suggest you amend your business strategy
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
You can buy a PC here for under 100$ at the current Peso-Dollar exchange rate.
See for yourself... This is where I buy my stuff. So the next time you come over for a vacation, shop around for a new PC :) You can buy all the parts and assemble it when you get back to your country.
'nuff said.
Shut up, bitch!! I am not pathethic!!!!!111
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss
The reason I mod the xbox is for the media player. I don't play any games on it. I played Halo for about 1/2 hour and have never touched it again.
I own about 100 DVDs and another 250 CDs. I've ripped every one onto my computer and use the xbox for video/music-on-demand. I don't want to hunt for the movie I want to watch. I have three xbox hooked up to different TVs in my house. I can be in bed and hit the remote and watch a movie. No need to walk to the other room.
When I was putting the system together I was ready to buy Shuttle mini-PCs. I had written a good portion of a media player. After doing some research, I found the xbox can serve the same purpose for about half the cost.
If MS sold the xbox for $400, then I would have bought the Shuttle boxes. The fact they sell it for cheap means I'm going to save my money. If they lose money on their business model, it's not my fault.
In my opinion, XBMP is the killer-app for the xbox. It's the only reason I bought it. Each new version is even better than the last.
I'm not stealing games. If I had even a single game (or movie for that matter) that I did not pay money for, then it would be a different matter. There are legitimate reasons to mod an xbox beyond stealing software. I own the hardware, I can do what I want with it.
Pontiac can't complain that I modified my Firebird to make it go faster and then complain that I should have bought a Corvette instead. I own the car, they have no say in the matter. MS set the price of the xbox. If they don't want people to buy them, then raise the price.
I bought a used 500MHz Xeon workstation for $200, with 256k RAM, Firewire, USB, SuperIO, actual PCI slots, even three ISA slots for my legacy tasks, etc, in a better looking, albiet much larger, package, and the performance likekly easily nukes XBox. No reason to futz with mods and other crap.
Anybody? Does power supply give enough juice for that to be possible? Then you would only need usb tv card..
OK, yeah, maybe you get a cheap PC from Wal-Mart, but on the other hand you just gave money to Wal-Mart. That money goes to help them destroy the economy of every small town they move into, efficiently union-busting and wage-cutting as they go. Because if you think Microsoft's "loss-leading" business model is obnoxious, you ain't seen nothin' yet. A Wal-Mart store can run at a loss for YEARS until all other stores in the vicinity are out of business.
Freedom: "I won't!"
OK, maybe my call about WalMart was a bit harsh. After all I have never been to one. However from my post it was not clear why I disliked WalMart, and it was certainly not because they sold things cheaply.
As to me justifying theft, well I don't know how buying an XBox could be theft. You must be just a lot smarter than me to work that one out.
- Alex
While reading this article, I just got the feeling that we are now in an era where the companies are right, and the consumers are wrong. It used to be the other way around. Also, maybe copyright owners of digital products should sue Microsoft for providing the tools to steal their digital products?
jg
Bob buys a copy of the codesheet. He then photocopies it and distributes it to 10 of his closest friends.
Bob buys a copy of the codesheet. He then sells it to Charlene. He does not copy the sheet nor does he himself read the book.
Bob takes a copy of the book. Without ever looking at the codesheet he figures out the code, using frequency analysis, etc. He then (a) reads the book; (b) tells Charlene about the book; or (c) tells Charlene about the code.
Bob takes a copy of the book but does not buy the codesheet. He tears out the pages of the book and uses them to line his birdcage.
I think it's pretty clear that only the very first usage is contrary to traditional conceptions of copyright. Note that Microsoft is essentially arguing that that last use would be illegal -- he is using the product in a way not intended and he is "circumventing" (literally, going around) the encryption device. Sure, he doesn't need the encryption device because he doesn't use the intellectual content of the book. But apparently the publisher gets to say what uses he makes of the book.
By the way, since Bob could simply take the book and burn it -- not buying the codesheet -- he has the potential to undermine Alice's business model. Therefore, matches are circumvention devices and must be banned. It does not matter that matches have many other uses; it does not matter that most books don't use an encryption sheet (or this silly business model). Under the arguments for the DMCA, any potential infringement of any single work is sufficient to block a device.
In other words, we've handed corporations a blank check to invent poor business models and then force us to pay when someone takes advantage.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
People always miss the point on retail sales.
Ever notice how books top the bestseller list before they can be bought by the public? You know why? Because the people who BUY books are not consumers: They are bookstores.
Same goes with the Xbox. Microsoft sells to electronics stores. If an Xbox is in the store, they've sold it already. If an Xbox game is in the store, it's already been sold.
Microsoft doesn't care if the consumer buys more games, they just care if the retail store buys more games. Admittedly they are connected, but you have to remember that it is possible for MS to break even on a product that is ONLY bought by the retail chains, and never sold to a single person. Indeed, they can make a very nice profit if the hype is effective.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
It's "lest you forget", dimwad.
1. Buy XBox ...
2. Don't buy any games.
3.
4. No Profit!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Do you blame the hackers, or do you blame the people who made the games without thinking about the hackers?
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
I bought a used 500MHz Xeon workstation for $200, with 256k RAM, Firewire, USB, SuperIO, actual PCI slots, even three ISA slots for my legacy tasks, etc, in a better looking, albiet much larger, package, and the performance likekly easily nukes XBox. No reason to futz with mods and other crap.
Dude, I think you got jacked on that deal. Only 256k RAM?! I know the Xbox only has 64MB and all, but if you really think your 256k is gonna 'nuke' that, it looks like you're gonna be needing to upgrade again pretty soon!
Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?
Well I can build a 1.3 GHz Duron with graphics and audio for about $200-$300, does that count?
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
The majority of Xbox linux users -also- buy Xbox software. I know that's how I do it. Splinter Cell and Halo are awesome.. so is Linux.
The way I see it, I'm just a legitimate customer who found some uses for his hardware in addition to what the manufacturer intended.
Sigs are awesome huh?
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
...instead of hacking the box, just find a way to copy the games?
And if you believe that, I've got some swamp land in Florida you might be intereseted in. (Cheap at twice the normal price!) I'm so jaded wrt MS, I could even entertain the notion that this whole article--this whole idea that, "Microsoft is concerned about losing money to X-Box hackers" is a con by MS to sell more X-Boxes. I mean, I'm sure MS would prefer the X-Box to remain unhacked and pristine for many obvious reasons. Also, sure the consoles are sold at a loss. But MS has enough money that they could use it to heat their office building by burning it for maybe 30 years straight and it wouldn't really make a dent in their overall "insanely rich" status.
And all those X-Boxes that get sold at a loss and then hacked are still better than X-Boxes that uselessly sit on shelves. As long as the MS Roms are still in their and still accessable, it's likely that, that X-Box will still be used to play MS-licensed games at some point in the future.
I doubt MS is as concerned about this as they are making it sound.
Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?
Well, I know that it's *easy* to buy a refurb or sometimes even new but remaindered P3 with higher specs than this, in Canada, for less than they sell an Xbox for. I have to assume the same is true for the U.S.
"In one sense, however, the hacking scene for PlayStation 2 is less developed than the one for Xbox because there is less appetite for it. Sony sells an official conversion kit for the PlayStation 2 that includes a hard drive and allows that system to run the Linux operating system, which in turn allows the system to run MP3's, movies, spreadsheets or any other program or data that works under Linux. It is relatively easy for Sony to embrace Linux because Sony, unlike Microsoft, is not in the operating system business."
So, Sony has a better tactic - make money off what people want! But the article goes on to say that Sony is more aggressive in going after modders - it seems that with this offering, you have an alternative to hacking the box. But the favorite hack to the PS2 is to defect the region codes.
Good. Region codes SUX. Out loud.
Me, I say crack that muther wide open - but keep an eye out for the Secret Police. Hell, I bet that both Sony and Microsoft have crawlers on the Net looking for modded boxes to report them and keep track of them. Hell, I bet the NSA does - you can build a hell of supercomputer with enough PS2's netted together. A little short on memory for each node, but still a respectable gigaflopper.
"Where else can you get a PIII-733 with graphics and audio for $180?"
Damn, I can do better with PriceWatch:
$64 Soyo M7IWM/L Motherboard, Celeron 1GHz CPU
$56 MGS Powered by ATI RADEON 7500 128MB SDRAM
w/TV-Out+DVI AGP 4X/2X
$20 MID ATX Turbo CASE W/ 230W ATX POWER SUPPLY
---
$130
Now add this $32 hotswapable 20 gig HD I found at HTC Net Store and for about the same price, you get a hard drive.
Now, out of the U.S., this will be hard to do, but if you live in the Imperial Homeland, the argument that modding your XBox is cheaper than building your own PC does not fry.
Note: I did not include links for two reasons: 1) every changes so fast, they would probably dead or misleading by the time you read this and 2), I ain't a sales person. Do your own searching.
But once you've eaten you don't have it. That's the meaning of the phrase... to have the cake, to eat the cake, but to still have the cake.
If I'm not mistaken the origin goes to Marie Antoinette, but I'm not sure about that one.
The law says Microsoft's business plan was perfectly reasonable, and if you try to interfere with it, you go to jail. Who are you going to believe? A bunch of teenaged hackers with too much free time, or Uncle Sam?
Benito Mussolini (sp?) said that fascism was the merger of state and corporate power. This desribes America today: we're well along the way, and probably past the point of no return. The Newspeak for this phenomenon in the modern U.S.A. is "public-private partnerships," among other equally revolting terms. It is the reason why you won't see genetically modified foods carry mandatory labelling in this country. It is the reason why in my home of NJ that the penalties for driving without insurance are double that of driving drunk. And it's the reason why soon you won't even be able to buy effective over the counter vitamins -- who needs vitamins, anyway? We've got the big pharmaceuticals to sell us expensive chemicals when we get sick.
Bah.
I'm sure that they were "respecting" IBM's IP when they assisted Compaq and the other clone makers by adapting their MSDOS to run on the "unlicensed" clone boxes.
Turnabout is fair play...but it usually sucks!
Little boys grow out of pissing contests when they find another use for their dicks.
I see you have some growing up to do since you seem to be in a pissing contest...
Theft of Marketing Strategy Outcome! For God's Sake, we must be sure the definition of "intellectual property" prevents individuals from doing anything that disrupts a business plan. Come to think of it, it should be a crime to buy an advertised sale item without also buying two items at regular price. Theft of bait! Damn freeloaders.
Not to be a bastard, but what about...
Ram?
Hard Drive?
Power supply?
All those cables like IDE?
That puts is waaaaay past $200 bro.
I don't want this. So what do we do to stop going along this "path"? Any suggestions?
jg
Neither Nintendo nor Sony sell hardware at a loss.
So this argues that MS can't build their boxes cheaply enough to compete.
But *that's not my problem*.
I'm not trying to be flip. But when I buy something, its mine.
An X-BOX is a tangible thing. I'm not renting it, leasing it, borrowing it. Its mine.
"Selling of modded X-Boxes is clearly an abuse of Microsoft's Trademark."
Hardly. I can buy a Chevy Corvette, mod the crap out of it and sell it as "Bill's Modded Corvettes". Chevy couldn't care less. Why does MS get a different set of laws than anybody else?
"you are still using Microsoft's Intellectual Property contrary to the software lisence that was granted with the sale of the unit."
There is no license granted or implied with the sale of a piece of hardware. I own an XBOX, and I've looked. I bought one, I never agreed to anything when I bought it. I never agreed to anything when I started it up. You may imagine there is one, but I may also imagine I am the prince of persia, too.
" That's completely legit, especially if you are essentially just enabling the PC industry standard parts."
If you divide that line any further we won't be able to see it. You're saying there are certain parts in an X-BOX that I can do with what I want, there are others that I can't. Nobody seems to have this inventory. I suggest the moment you say that there are significant portions of the XBOX that are non-proprietary that you can't tell me that I can't use the box for whatever I damned well please.
Remember, just because MS (or Sony, or Nintendo, or GM, or Xerox, or Apple, or ANYBODY) doesn't like it doesn't make it illegal. It doesn't make it a violation of copyright or DMCA. It just means that a lot of big companies have a short-sighted board up their ass that makes them act contrary to their own long-term interests.
it might not make sense for printers, but i'm not sure that i agree with your comment about the ink cartridges, b/c why couldn't you buy generic cartridges and circumvent giving the manufacturer any money back???? As mentioned previously on Slashdot and other places, companies like Lexmark have added chips to some cartridges to prevent people from refilling them, or making generics. Basically, the hitch to making generic carts is that the firmware on the chips is copyright. You can't produce working cartridges without a compatible chip. Of course, you can't do that without either a copy of the firmware or by reverse engineering the firmware, which is apparently a no longer a legal practice under the DMCA if you're in the USA. Through the magic of legal acrobatics, making certain generic printer cartridges is made illegal under the DMCA. This doesn't explain why such generics aren't produced and sold in other countries though...
I think that educating ourselves as to how the world REALLY works behind the scenes is the first priority. We can't defend ourselves against a power we don't understand. As we do, we have to educate others as well... one man alone can do nothing. The mass media of newspapers and TV are all owned by the same few companies (and the FCC just loosened the rules on that again too) -- meaning a half dozen men in essence control all the major networks and papers. Fortunately, at this point in time the internet allows anyone to be a publisher, so we can turn off the TV "PROGRAMMING" and seek our own information.
... ever wonder about the fact that both Bush and the frontrunner for the 2004 Democratic nomination, John Kerry, are BOTH members of Skull & Bones? These tapes help shed light on occult politics (and why religions tell their members to not investigate such matters).
Some of my favorite independent news sites are www.informationclearinghouse.info, www.thememoryhole.org, www.rense.com, www.infowars.com
www.lightworksav.com has on VHS "The Naked Truth" as well as the 3-VHS set "Ancient Mysteries Series" which got me started (no I don't work for them) and I highly recommend
There is a whole world of information out there that the mass media will never tell you. I forget who said it, but "the horrible thing about the search for truth is that you find it." I'm finding that to be accurate in my own life.
That a very easy quection to answer that for some reason nobody knows.
educate yourself people
anti-tcpa.org
or for the pro side (sic) trustedpc.com
I fell into the trap of assuming that the amount of money that Microsoft made was the same as the high street sale price. That is clearly false.
It is normal that the manufactor recieves around 50% of the normal sale price for the goods. The remainder is eaten by distribution, shop costs (e.g. staff) and so on.
This does not invalidate the above particularly much, except that the actual estimates for the cost of the system are now off, by around a factor of two. The profit/loss made doesn't change, thus the major point is intact.
This makes my assesment of the cost no longer agree with one of the linked artickles, making me question the validity of any other information from it - specifically, the royalty per game that microsoft makes. Can anyone corroborate (or otherwise) that information?
The Xbox processor is a 733mhz Celeron, not a P3.
They ran Linux, and ran it inside a virtualized PC. Not much of a trick.
Cripes. Do people read the links they give out?
If I had some spare $$$s I might pick up a 6 pack and see what kind of fun I could have with em. :D
"People will pay big bucks for the luxury of ignorance."
If you don't, they won't. If people don't buy this thing, Microsoft eats the development costs and gets what it deserves for predatory dumping.
Ever notice how books top the bestseller list before they can be bought by the public? You know why? Because the people who BUY books are not consumers: They are bookstores.
Books, music and other mass produced media take their cues from primary markets like New York, LA, San Deigo and other large cities. Things that sell well there, for whatever reason, are assumed to sell well elsewhwere. Typically, what does not sell in a primary market gets dumped onto secondary markets later anyway, but they are not mass produced like things that are expected to sell. I'm not sure this applies to consumer electronics but it does not matter.
The worst thing that can happen to Microsoft is to develop a flop. Anytime anyone buys a M$ thingy, it's good for M$. Flops put big fat holes in the Microsoft hype machine and eat into their cash. Factories try to proctect themselves from flops with minimum purchases required to make a run. Retailers try to protect themselves with clauses about return of unsold mechanise. We can't know what pressure both sides put on Microsoft for the xbox, but we can make up our minds to buy honest wares and let dishonest people go out of business.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
"Microsoft is a company passionate about innovation and creativity. We are also very committed to respect for others' intellectual property and we request the same respect applied to our innovations. .......... Sorry, I'm so busy pissing myself laughing........
Anyway, If they are selling at a loss because they can't shift enough of them that's their problem not their customers.
If you tune your car or motorbike and use it to it's full potential does the manufacturer turn up on your doorstep with a hoarde of lawyers and take your car back....no. And why not? Simple, it's none of their bloody business what YOU do with YOUR car once you've paid. OK, so the police may take an interest but that's pretty reasonable given that doing 170MPH on public roads qualifies you for the "shit for brains trophy for total stupidity".
Hacking AN X-Box hurts no-one other than a convicted monopoly company that's using it's extreme wealth to prop up a product that would have gone down the drain by now if it had come from anyone else a 'la dreamcast.
Can someone now do something about this "you don't own it, just licence it" crap now please.
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
Wiley Technology Publishing -- which often works with Microsoft to publish guides for Microsoft products, like the Xbox -- agreed to publish Huang's book then backed out, citing DMCA concerns, but says they would not ask Huang to return the advance they paid him.
Unable to find another publisher, Huang self-published and began selling copies out of his garage. The Electronic Frontier Foundation then stepped in and helped Huang find a new publisher.
There's more in the article, including some discussion about the chilling effect recent legislation has on intellectual freedom.
Here's the Google link to the article.
It seems to me that their strategy was to lower the price of the XBox to encourage more people to buy it, and it doesn't seem like they are losing money on the actual hardware (marketing, R&D, and other accounting matters may likely show a loss). Additionally, it seems like they have been trying to keep this debate going in the media and on the internet.
Therefore, by giving their hardware praise and talking about how inexpensive it is I think a lot of people are unwittingly playing right into MS's hand. When people see these comments they are likely to buy the product and use it however they see fit, but will probably buy a few games, and maybe participate in on-line gaming. This is exactly what Bill is looking for.
Of course such forward thinking and creative marketing may not have occurred to MS, but then again they did build a corporate empire based on a decision to lose money on their sales of DOS to IBM thereby encouraging millions of other users to lock themselves into their products. But then again I could be another MS spy sent to discourage people from hacking the Xboxes.
LIVE, Love, die
"The reality is that if you could bypass Microsoft's operating system you would end up with a fairly powerful computer for less than $200"
As self righteous as hackers can be over the XBox-Linux debacle, I don't know of a company in the world that slit their own throats like these fools expect MS to. I'm sorry, these people simply aren't living in reality.
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- when a company has so much to lose by allowing the competition access to their product only a stoned idiot would consider this a good thing for their business, yet we have plenty of absolute fucking idiots crying that they somehow have a right to force MS into Linux compatibility when that God given right to Linux never existed. "It's a sad day for Microsoft" only because somebody got smacked upside the head with a reality check.
Look, I like the hacks as much as the next guy. I'll be using it just to play the import Yukikaze (Movie; Cripes this game looks hot), but it just bugs the shit out of me when people insist on pushing their own little open source fantasies in places where reality simply doesn't allow for them.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
- XBOX $180
- Linux $0
- Blank CD $0.25
- USB Keyboard $5
- USB Mouse $5
Making Microsoft lose money: Priceless!
You're mistaken. She said, "Let them eat cake." I didn't find the where the other cake line game from, except that it's a proverb.
If my business model is to sell stuff below cost, I think I have a problem with my business model.
Theoretically, what they're saying is that they're selling shoes in hopes that it'll grow their sock sales, and anybody who buys socks from elsewhere or makes their own is undermining their business model.
If Microsoft, the Great Technilogical Way Of The Future that it is, cannot make a profit on selling XBoxes, then they shouldn't be selling XBoxes. Seems pretty simple to me.
Rest in Peace Capitalism, our long dead friend.
Karma: Non-Heinous
The Xbox is still a colossal loss for Microsoft - but they're pretty much the only ones who can afford it.
The Raven
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
This is slashdot. Most people don't read any of the article so three pages is pretty long.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
Perhaps in the US, but here in Australia an X-Box retails for 300 usually, while you can double the cost of most of the parts listed. Not to mention convenience of a pre-built system in a case that won't look out of place nest to the sound system.
The X-Box Linux mod , is in itself a innovative product. They took a product that MS wants to see on every tv-side table and gave it a new purpose. Linux mod isn't like the mod-chipping the x-box to pirate games. Its another method of using the x-box Swift2k
>> why couldn't you buy generic cartridges and circumvent ?
Because of the encryption chips they are trying to install in ink cartridges, allowing only 'official' carts to work in the printer...
Reloading carts and generic cartridges wont work.
DCMA makes it a crime to use non-monopolistic ink!
(your bypassing an encryption scheme on ink!)
anti-dmca.org
I bought an XBox because it can be hacked. Over time I happened to buy about 10 or so games I thought were cool... In my case, hacking is making MS money.
It almost feels dirty to say that.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
That's OK, he's got SCSI disks, so he won't notice the swapping.
Go check the specs on Wally's box. 1.2GB Duron beats the shit out of the Xbox's Cellery (it may say PIII but it has half the cache disabled, making it a Celeron), it also has heaps more memory.
Basically, unless Wally's box has intigrated video based on the NForce (Nforce Athlon boards do exist), the only thing the Xbox beats the Wally box on would be 3D video.
Of course, if you want a small form factor device that plays DVDs, you could always just get, oh, say a DVD player? There are many out there for under $100, and most of them play VCD and MP3s too. Now I know it isn't as flexible as a networked PC, but for half the price, which is more sensible?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
So that sort of blows standalone players, for now.
I have PC dedicated for that purpose.. If it should die, then i goto a modded console out of cost considerations.
If you dont do 'alternative' formats, then i agree totally..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Suppose I want a scalable Virtual Linux webserver (see the Debian website). Even without monitor, keyboard, etc., it's going to (1) take up a ton of space, and (2) be expensive for me to buy off here in the boondocks of Lithuania.
Further, the HDDs that come out here are unreliable (1 year death is common); and it will be hard to set up each and every box with an optimum solution if I go the "used" route.
However, XBOX is prestandardized. It has a nice fast processor, an I/O processor [which is very useful for taking a communications load off the main processor: the old mainframes used to use a paired-processor setup like that], a 100MBPS ethernet connection, and 64 MB RAM, which is enough. So it is really optimized for network servers in a lot of ways.
That said, if Microsoft doesn't want me buying it for that purpose, then I have no purpose for buying it. I don't play games at the arcade, and if I want to blow off steam, I can download a linux game, play a little bit of it, and delete it. Anyhow, I've sent them an email to XBOX support, asking "what is your policy on unmodded XBOX Linux? Do you intend to fight it, or not?"
well that's easy: compgeeks.com
Alright so it's not quite a 733, but for $50 less it's close enough. Audio is good enough, and although the video may leave something to be desired a $30 video card off pricewatch would give you comparable 3D graphics.
To be honest I don't think people hack XBox's for the "bang for buck", I think they do it just to do it. If you could get the BMW's 745i computer to run Linux I'm sure people would be doing it.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone