Google Code Jam 2003 Announced

An anonymous reader says "O'Reilly Developer News is reporting details of the newest Google programming contest, Google Code Jam 2003. Prizes range from t-shirts to ten grand and you can use any programming language you want to solve the increasingly challenging problems." Update by J : ... as long as it's Java, C++, C# or VB.NET.

Comments

Any language?

[grub]

The submitter writes ".. you can use any programming language you want" but Google's page says "Use Java, C++, C# or VB.NET. Pick any of these programming languages to code your solutions. All are acceptable and none is given an advantage."
Unless I'm parsing this wrong, it sounds like one can't use any language, only 1 of the 4 listed. (It's also odd that C isn't there but some proprietary languages are)

Re:Any language?

[jonathan_ingram]

No, it isn't. It's *almost* a subset, but there are valid C programs which are not valid C++.

Re:Any language?

[someguy456]

Technically, isn't C++ backwards compatible with C? That is, all C programs should compile and work correctly on any C++ compiler. Do compilers actually use the file extension to differentiate? Maybe if you just labeled your code as .cpp, it will all work out.

Re:Any language?

[Ruds]

Google is running this through TopCoder, which started out Java/C++ only and has recently added C# and VB.NET. TopCoder challenges are object-oriented in nature, although in some cases, this is basically a thin veneer over a non-object-oriented problem.

Matt

Re:Any language?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is some winning code:

#!/usr/bin/perl

print "I win!!!!";

Re:Any language?

[IvyMike]

You're correct: one trivial example is any C code that uses identifiers which are C++ keywords.

But if you're writing new C code from scratch, aware that it will be compiled with a C++ compiler, it's trivial to get it all to work.

Re:Any language?

[millette]

c++ started out as a superset of c, but the inverse isn't true any more.

Re:Any language?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's trivial... unless you need to use the new C99 features.

Re:Any language?

[PaulBu]

Good luck compiling a C program which has a variable named 'new'! ;-)

Paul B.

Re:Any language?

[SeanTobin]

Time to break out my perl to C converter! You haven't seen obfuscated perl until you've seen it in C!

Re:Any language?

[MarvinIsANerd]

C++ is a superset of C. You could code an entire program in C and it would also be valid C++...

Re:Any language?

[lederhosen]

No it is not, just allmost.

Re:Any language?

[joe_plastic]

No it is not strictly backwards compatible. There are a few areas where they a strictly conforming c program will either not compile or give different results if compiled as if it were a c++ program.
Obviously c++ keywords in a c program would give different results.
There are also other things like the value of sizeof('x') . Is it 1 or 4?
There are somethings were being more verbose explicit can lessen the differenrces.
is f() interpreted as void f(void) or int f(...)

Re:Any language?

[Anonymous Coward]

YOu are an idiot.

Submitter is Google. One of the most successfull programming outfits out there.

Re:Any language?

[IvyMike]

Which C99 feature do you need to use that:
1) Isn't also a C++ feature (that covers a large chunk of C99)
2) Isn't already a vendor-specific extension
3) Doesn't have a commonly-known (and often-used) workaround?

C99 is still new enough that compiler support is very spotty (for example, GCC C99 status) anyways.

Take another look over David R. Tribble's list of C99 v. C++ incompatabilities. I find it difficult to believe that there will be anyone stymied by having a C++ compiler but not a C99 compiler.

Re:Any language?

[Megaslow]

Bob is a person, therefore all people are Bob.

Re:Any language?

[Dajur]

Thats why you can't overload functions based on return values.

Re:Any language?

[Anonymous Coward]

...therefore you are a dork. The original poster's logic is completely correct, however his premise is false.

Now that I think about it, his premise is meaningless. A language is not a set, so how can one be a superset of another? Suppose the set 'A' of C++ keywords were a superset of the set 'B' of C keywords (this is no longer the case;) then a C program using variable names from A - B would not be a valid C++ program.

Re:Any language?

[swillden]

Thats why you can't overload functions based on return values.

Sure you can, it just takes a bit of cleverness and some overloading of operator=.

Re:Any language?

[kosibar]

Maybe the original was showing the bias of the author - as news often does these days. His point could have been that you can use any language that you would want to because nobody would want to use any language other than those listed.

Then again, maybe it was a mistake. Hard to say.

Re:Any language?

[Chundra]

I wonder why python isn't listed...this quote comes right off the python.org front page:

"Python has been an important part of Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search quality at Google, Inc.

VB.NET! Christ!

Re:Any language?

[MikeFM]

I'm tempted to complain about not allowing Python. Or maybe just enter a Python program to compete. Even if disqualified from actually winning it'd be fun to compete.

Re:Any language?

[UnknowingFool]

I guess it's like Ford and colors for the original Model T. Any color you want as long as it's black. Any programming language as long as it's one of the four.

Re:Any language?

[W2k]

With a few exceptions, all valid C code is also valid C++ code. The exceptions are listed in section B.2.2 of The C++ Programming Language (Stroustrup), and most of them concern things that most programmers won't usually come across, or which constitute bad style and are thus best avoided even in C.

I don't see any reason why C code shouldn't be able to compete if it complies with the C++ specifications - I'd just be C++ but without any C++ features. Unless of course you by C mean C99, in which case there would be other differences, as not all C99 features are supported by C++. Still, writing code that is valid in both C++ and C should pose no great obstacle to any programmer skilled enough to compete in a competition such as the one in question.

Re:Any language?

[JAgostoni]

Where's your scope and type indicator in that variable name? Why don't you just use the variable named a? What is it a new of? A new car? A new life?

Re:Any language?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this would be an interesting strategy.

The contest involves a 'challenge' round, where other programmers try to break your code by looking it over and issuing test cases.

If they can't READ the code, then they're going to have a tougher time breaking it.

Re:Any language?

[Validus]

Oh well,
it could be fun if I could have uesed functaional lang. you got to love Haskell

look how simple it is to do quicksort.
qsort [] = []
qsort (x:xs) = qsort elts_lt_x ++ [x] ++ qsort elts_greq_x
where
elts_lt_x = [y | y = x]

Re:Any language?

[adrianbaugh]

C++ is a superset of C isn't it? So C is allowed too. I think maybe you have to bung some preprocessor macros in to keep the compiler happy but that's about it. Having said that, looking at the choice of languages they've made I suspect the task in question will probably be seriously easier in an OO language.

Re:Any language?

[PaulBu]

Well, as in
f(int x) { int old, new; /* blah, blah */}
'new' is a reserved keyword in C++, but an absolutely valid (and even meaningful!) variable name in C.

Paul B.

Re:Any language?

[JAgostoni]

I got the technicality of it, I disagree on it being a meaningful name. If I were looking deep, deep into your funciton I would (a) have no idea that is was a parameter (b) have no idea what type of variable it is and (c) would potentially not know what it represented. That is just my opinion, of course. I would have named it pnNewWidget or something.

Re:Any language?

[jareds]

Unless I'm parsing this wrong, it sounds like one can't use any language, only 1 of the 4 listed. (It's also odd that C isn't there but some proprietary languages are)

Just for the record, although you're parsing that sentence correctly, the way TopCoder works is that there are 3 problems per contest, and you may use any of the 4 available languages for each problem, so you could use 3 of the 4 listed if you really wanted to. I would hope it's spelled out correctly somewhere in the official rules, as opposed to Google's promotional copy.

Re:Any language?

[jareds]

I know you're joking, but since the AC reply says that's an interesting idea, I just wanted to point out that it's against the rules unless you wrote the converter yourself (it's fine to do so ahead of time).

Re:Any language?

[goldenfield]

What about Jython? Sort of Python...Sort of Java. Does that count?

Re:Any language?

[EugeneK]

Sure a language is a set. It's a set of all the possible strings (programs) in the language. Let A be the set of all C++ programs. Let B be the set of all C programs. A-B is the set of C++ programs that that are not C programs.

Re:Any language?

[liquidflare]

Hopefully I'll win with this (no one steal it plz):

int main() {
printf("Hello World!!!");
return(0);
}

Re:Any language?

[SeanTobin]

I read through the rules just now.. I didn't notice anything saying publicaly available tools/converters/obfuscators weren't legal. Care to post the section that says that?

Re:Any language?

[bot]

Haskell.... oooh. Brings back memories. I did a lot of programming in Gofer (a dialect/implementation) of Haskell for an introductory CS courses.

Re:Any language?

[smurfbane]

I imagine part of the reason they limited the languages was to keep all the Java programmers (who had stayed up for three days straight working on their programs), from committing suicide when they found out the winner was a Perl one-liner that doubled as a JAPH.

Re:Any language?

[rnd()]

VB.NET is equivalent to C#. Both of these were created as an incremental step forward; just as Java has some advantages over C++, the new .NET languages have some advantages over Java. I don't know where Python fits into the continuum.

Re:Any language?

[jareds]

There's a bright red section that says all ideas for code and/or challenges must be the coder's alone. Using a tool, which you yourself didn't write, to generate actual code, is thus not permitted because the tool will use ideas that aren't yours to generate the code.

I grant that this rule is very fuzzy (e.g., code that implements a well-known algorithm is fine, even though the idea for the algorithm isn't yours), but the rules give TopCoder and/or Google the right to interpret the fuzzy rule however they want, and this is how they will, based on a thread in the discussion boards on TopCoder's site a while ago.

Re:Any language?

[JDWTopGuy]

REBOL []

x: [3 32 45 1 4 0 8 ]
x: sort x

Re:Any language?

[jesco]

I think the general idea is that, while the well-known algorithm may not be your idea, you still have to *code* the damn thing. You wrote each line by hand. Using a converter who writes the code for you, even although you have to provide a meaningful input for the converter, makes it impersonal. It's not exactly your code anymore.

Re:Any language?

[bruthasj]

Most high-level languages can be embedded in the first two, so if you really want to go Python, setup main to call your script right off the bat. Maybe they won't notice! ;)

Re:Any language?

[brunes69]

Because, as both the article and the guy above JUST SAID, its run by TopCoder.com

Man learn to read.

Re:Any language?

[Chundra]

Oh right. So it's run by TopCoder.com. Like that's supposed to mean anything.

P.S. Go fuck yourself.

Re:Any language?

[brunes69]

Google is running this through TopCoder, which started out Java/C++ only and has recently added C# and VB.NET. TopCoder challenges are object-oriented in nature, although in some cases, this is basically a thin veneer over a non-object-oriented problem.

Jesus, get a clue

PS: No thanks I can get others to do that for me

blogs

[CGP314]

you can use any programming language you want to solve the increasingly challenging problems

Like how to stop blogs from screwing with google's results? :)

All right!

[anon*127.0.0.1]

Finally, a chance for me to show what COBOL can really do!

Re:All right!

[CGP314]

Lisp will totally kick cobol's butt. :)

Re:All right!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh so true, too bad Google is being a language chauvinist here....only C++, Java, VB, C#

Re:All right!

[GoofyBoy]

(((If (You can ((keep track of) all the)) crazy )) brackets ) !)

Re:All right!

[tuffy]

(((If (You can ((keep track of) all the)) crazy )) brackets ) !)

You missed an open-paren

;)

Re:All right!

[Xzzy]

That's always what I thought what TinyMUSH was created for.. bracket matching training.

5 years later and I can still count parenthesis with the best of 'em.

Re:All right!

[inkedmn]

/me whips out brainfuck, all flee in terror

Re:All right!

[Jugalator]

... the words of a lisp programmer after a quick glance? :-)

That reminded me of the old MS-DOS days (eep!) where you got so used to the short file name rules, that it took a fraction of a second to see that the file name IBFDATA01.BIN was one character too long, and you became equally quick to shorten names to optimal length while still being as descriptive as possible. :-)

Re:All right!

[MisanthropicProggram]

Actually, it would be an interesting contest to see what could be done with langauges such as COBOL. Sure, there are some impressive things that are done with the contest languages, but after all, they're pretty powerful languages in themselves. Or, programming in something really low level - assembly, anyone?

I still remember the days when there were the programming snobs who didn't think you were a programmer unless you coded in assembly! They even had to program in the snow... uphill... both ways!

Re:All right!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll see your cobal and raise you qbasic. Why, if I can make a 640x480 menu-driven, mouse-using GUI in qbasic, I don't think this contest will be much of a challenge...

(Posted anonymously for obvious reasons)

Re:All right!

[Schnapple]

Well, since two of the languages are .NET languages (VB.NET and C#), why couldn't you do it in any .NET language? (COBOL.NET for example)

Re:All right!

[rpresser]

So, start by writing a COBOL interpreter in C++, then put your COBOL program in string data.

Re:All right!

[Anonymous Coward]

(((If (You can ((keep track of) all the)) crazy )) brackets ) !)

You missed an open-paren ;)

And you just made it worse... :-)

C++ only?

[pigscanfly.ca]

If I write C code that compiles under C++ would that be considerd "C++" (for the purpose of said competition . While I can program C++ if its a timed competition C would be faster for me) .

Re:C++ only?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything that compiles with a C++ compiler is C++ in my book (ignoring the cries of the "int main" C++ Nazis of course)

Re:C++ only?

[Anonymous Coward]

Think for a second about your question. How exactly would they tell the C apart from the C++?

Re:C++ only?

[Reiners]

Well, no, you can't actually. This is because you'll be required to implement a particular method within a particular class. That being said, all the code within that method can be in C (modulo those picky little C things that won't compile in C++ mentioned in other postings).

Re:C++ only?

[HitchHik]

David trible published a paper on the compatibility of C99 vs C++. It can be found here:
http://david.tribble.com/text/cdiffs.htm

...hh

Re:C++ only?

[Lord Kano]

If I write C code that compiles under C++ would that be considerd "C++" (for the purpose of said competition . While I can program C++ if its a timed competition C would be faster for me) .


Would your code compile under a C++ compiler without "using namespace std;"?

If you include that one statement, your code is no longer standard C and is now C++.

Problem solved.

Re:C++ only?

[ZorbaTHut]

Assuming it's like a normal Topcoder match (which I honestly don't know), you'll have to write a class with a member function that takes parameters. The parameters might be ints, or might be strings, vectors, or vectors of strings. Plus, you'll have to return something that might be any of those. However it's pretty trivial to convert from those to whatever C-compatible format you want - so with a little C++ glue around your C code, yes, it would indeed be doable.

Looking for telecommuters?

[RobertB-DC]

This is an interesting way of looking for recruits. An individual interview is one thing -- I've seen some real losers get past that process. Google seems to be looking for a way to entice and reward developers who can use their l33t coding sk1llz in a team environment. It's one thing to be able to write good code -- the ability to work with other great coders is valuable indeed.

Here's what Google values, from their Job Opportunities page:

What we look for when hiring great people:
* People with broad knowledge and expertise in many different areas of computer science and mathematics, including distributed systems, operating systems, data mining, information retrieval, machine learning, performance optimization, algorithms, user interface design, statistical inference and information theory, and related areas.
* People with world-class programming skills.
* People with excellent communication and organizational skills.
* People who are passionate about their work and are great colleagues.
* People who enjoy working in a high-energy, unstructured environment on very small project teams to build amazing products used by millions of people every day.
* People with diverse interests and skills.

What intrigues me personally is that this contest takes place in an online collaborative environment. Does this mean that Google is considering opening up to remote working -- as in, I can live in Dallas and "work" in the Googleplex? As much as I'd love to work at a place like Google, there's no way I'm moving to Cali-fall-into-the-ocean-fornia.

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[shralpmeister]

As much as I'd love to work at a place like Google, there's no way I'm moving to Cali-fall-into-the-ocean-fornia.

Yes, yes! Rember folks, California really is falling into the ocean. It is also a nightmare of wildfires, earthquakes, sharks, deadly volcanoes, poison gasses, smog, etc. You don't want to live here! It's horrible... horrible!

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[daveo0331]

That's right. There's also SARS patients, grizzly bears, incompetent politicians, no jobs, horrible traffic, we're right next to the Pacific Ocean (which routinely produces typhoons that kill thousands of people), nuclear power plants, deadly blizzards... we even have a place called Death Valley.

(if we scare everyone off maybe the housing will actually be semi-affordable someday)

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[hondo77]

It's even worse than that, folks. Los Angeles has banned lap dancing. There truly is no reason to live here anymore.

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[Optic7]

You forgot mudslides!

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[RobertB-DC]

That's right. There's also SARS patients, grizzly bears, incompetent politicians, no jobs, horrible traffic, we're right next to the Pacific Ocean (which routinely produces typhoons that kill thousands of people), nuclear power plants, deadly blizzards... we even have a place called Death Valley.

Hmmm... maybe I should reconsider. Here in Texas, we have West Nile Virus, alligators (though they leave people alone), incompetent politicians (wish they would), jobs that go away when oil prices dip, horrible traffic, we're in Tornado Alley (with a direct hit on downtown Ft. Worth), cement plants, 120-degree weather, and we have a 32,000 square mile region (larger than all of New England) called the Llano Estacado that is so flat, it slopes just 10 feet per mile, and barely gets 12 inches of rain a year.

Screw it all, I'm moving to Barbados!

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[rnd()]

You forgot Gray Davis.

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[sootman]

Luckily LA is an 8 hour drive from Mountain View. BTW, I'm from the bay area originally & visited last week. My mom works across the street from Google. Of course I had to go there and get my picture taken in front of it. I was happy to see their signs--they have buildings 0, pi, and e.

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[Dumbush]

then just let the stripper seat on your lap stationary

Re:Looking for telecommuters?

[seringen]

Google's all about doing your own code, but having people around you all the time pushing each other. Plus the food's great there!

Mmm..

[Trolling for Profit]

Give away your software and ideas for free (or in this case a t-shirt, that's close enough).. and then possibly get a reward afterwards? Sounds a lot like soviet communism with it's quality reward program.

Re:Mmm..

[smittyoneeach]

Plenty of business models involve a loss-leader, which is what this is, from a personal standpoint.
I daresay RMS isn't starving; he just isn't shackled with a large company for his effort.

Re:Mmm..

[kfg]

It sounds more like professional sports to me. Particularly auto racing where the idea that you use to win today is used by all of your competitors to beat you tomorrow.

You won't find many auto racers who are communists. The structure inherently attracts rabid individualists and fanatical Libertarians.

Kinda like computer geeks. Gearhead is just a subcatagory of geek, as is bithead.

Also, never forget the maxim that the only thing sweeter than money earned is money won.

People will die trying to win a penny where they wouldn't work for a million bucks.

Much of human behaviour that appears mysterious is hidden in this simple fact.

KFG

Re:Mmm..

[Anonymous Coward]

People will die trying to win a penny where they wouldn't work for a million bucks. One word: gambling. If gambling can destroy lives, then surely it can destroy companies that gamble (pardon the pun) on it.

Re:Mmm..

[EastCoastSurfer]

the only thing sweeter than money earned is money won.

So true, but let me add to it. Money won from someone else just like you is the purest form of what you describe. For example, winning at blackjack in a casino is fun, but beating people at the poker table is a rush that can't be matched.

Re:Mmm..

[lars]

The problems will have model solutions already prepared beforehand for judging purposes. You don't have to give away anything they don't already know in order to solve the problems.

Re:Mmm..

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, Mr. Murky. Who are you working for?

Re:Mmm..

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, idea gives away you!

TopCoder!

[Chromodromic]

The Google Code Jam is being conducted in conjunction with TopCoder, the coolest, best implemented regular online coding contest. You can go there and download the Arena applet to get an idea of the format of the contest and to get ready by practicing with sample problems. In fact, that's highly recommended since the applet accommodates a very specific kind of contest.

Also, it would be wise to participate in a few live TopCoder rounds, which are held weekly, if you have any hope of being competitive.

Re:TopCoder!

[Thuktun]

The only problem is that TopCoder style programming contests select for speed of implementation over quality, efficiency, readability, and maintainability. Worse, since your code is challenged by other coders, the more unreadable and impenetrable your code, the less likely subtle bugs in your code will be detected in the short challenge period.

Still, it was nice when they were awarding $300 for first place in your room in Division I for contests every week. When they dropped the prize money for weekly matches, there wasn't a compelling reason to spend my time on it.

Re:TopCoder!

[hanssprudel]

Just out of curiosity, can you give some examples of the type of problems given? I looked around the TopCoders site but couldn't find any examples of past problems.

Re:TopCoder!

[Reiners]

They have examples here: Sample Problem Statements

Re:TopCoder!

[veredox]

Not all TopCoder programming contests select speed of implementation over everything else good.

One you are a rated member, you are eligable to participate in design or development competitions. These take place over a matter of weeks and emphasize all the goodness we all desire (sound design, clear code and comments, etc). AND first through third place get cash, just like the old days ... *sigh*

Cheap Labor

[inputsprocket]

When your stuck on how to code something....
run a competition and let others do the coding for you.

oh and don't forget to through in a t-shirt or to for all the hard work

Re:Cheap Labor

[CGP314]

oh and don't forget to through in a t-shirt or to for all the hard work

That's more than some coders in the US get :(

Re:Cheap Labor

[WIAKywbfatw]

When your stuck on how to code something....
run a competition and let others do the coding for you.

oh and don't forget to through in a t-shirt or to for all the hard work

And lather, rinse, repeat if you're after some original designs for t-shirts for your website...

To be honest, I like the idea of this Google competition. I'm not going to be winning it (my programming skills aren't fantastic) but it's a great way of fostering relationships between you and your user base, finding good coders (and potential future employees), getting some good code and/or code ideas and, above all, having a little bit of fun with the community as a whole.

If all companies were like Google then we'd all be happy as Jay and Silent Bob at a weedfest.

Re:Cheap Labor

[MagPulse]

Ha ha. Except:

1. They pay problem writers to come up with fully tested solutions in all four languages.
2. These problems are variants of well-known CS problems and distilled to their essence. Real-world problems are 80% special cases.

Re:Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

" When your stuck on how to code something.... run a competition and let others do the coding for you. oh and don't forget to through in a t-shirt or to for all the hard work"

When your stuck on grammer, post to slashdot and let all the pedants do the proofreading for you. Don't forget to through or in a t-shirt to for all the criticism

Re:Cheap Labor

[blibbleblobble]

"oh and don't forget to through in a t-shirt or to for all the hard work"

suggested second prize: a dictionary?

Re: Cheap Labor

[Master Bait]

When your stuck on how to code something.... run a competition and let others do the coding for you.

I actually read the terms and conditions. You're absolutely correct: (vi) licenses to TopCoder and Google rights to all information submitted during the tournament (including rights to source code and other executables),

Re:Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

If your real world problems are 80% special cases perhaps you need to spend more time during requirements and design.

Even in academia you can see it. Sure you can check the data type before every use, but it's much cleaner if you design it up front to use operator overloading.

I've been in the real world for a couple years now and I see that most people use the special cases all over the place. But I've also designed and coded some systems with far more functionality in less time using a more flexible design that doesn't have to explicitly state every special case.

Proper abstraction makes special cases not affect the rest of the code and allows "academic" solutions to work in the real world. Your special case changes may be no more complicated than deriving a new class.

Re:Cheap Labor

[jamonterrell]

If they wanted cheap labor they'd use experts-exchange. Seriously, throw a few useless imaginary status points(that mean even less than /. karma) out and see what people would do. And you can pay $9.95/month to get unlimited number of question points to send out... It's like the perfect consultant for $9.95/month.

Besides didn't I read that google was also giving away 10 grand for this? Hardly cheap labor.

Re:Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't really think that's what he ment, but I can't speak for him. I work with real world data. 95% of my data takes none of my time to process (fully automated). The last 5% takes all my time because I have to research what went wrong because the computer can't access or understand all the meta data I can.

Ok, a real example. Our airplane flew past the south pole. For some reason the navigation system started outputing latitudes less than -90. Sure, I wrote my code right, it flagged them as errors and reported them to me. But that's just the start. I spent over a week figuring out how the navigation system was messed up and comming up with an program to correct the mess. There are over 30 fields from that instrument and about half were funny. I was able to find a way to fix them and and verify that the results were acceptable. There's no way good programming in advance can prevent that. That was one of about five special case problems I had to deal with in that data set.

Re:Cheap Labor

[WIAKywbfatw]

When your stuck on grammer, post to slashdot and let all the pedants do the proofreading for you. Don't forget to through or in a t-shirt to for all the criticism

That's "grammar", not "grammer". D'oh!

It's pretty sad when the "proofreaders" need proofreaders too...

Re:Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

When your stuck on grammer, post to slashdot and let all the pedants do the proofreading for you. Don't forget to through or in a t-shirt to for all the criticism

Oh no, you fail it!

Re: Cheap Labor

[fucksl4shd0t]

(vi) licenses to TopCoder and Google rights to all information submitted during the tournament (including rights to source code and other executables),

That's right, and their license to use my code is commonly referred to as the GPL. If they wish to create derivative works from it, or incorporate it into a larger body of work, they will have to GPL the entire work. :) (That'll teach them to try to own *my* code)

Re: Cheap Labor

[nathanm]

That's right, and their license to use my code is commonly referred to as the GPL. If they wish to create derivative works from it, or incorporate it into a larger body of work, they will have to GPL the entire work.

Only if they released the binary outside the company. If they only used the code internally, they're under no obligation to release it.

Re:Cheap Labor

[MrScience]

Except the other 80% that aren't.

Thank you, captain obvious!

[192939495969798999]

I assumed everyone knew about the contest already, or I would've submitted the story myself! Argh! Oh well. You can all expect to see sir_haxalot take time off from being an artist for a few minutes, in order to use the force and attempt to gain at least a t-shirt.

Not quite ANY programming language...

[DrEldarion]

Unfortunately, they won't let you use ANY programming language, your choices are: Java, C++, C# or VB.NET.

I was really hoping someone would join and attempt to do everything in FORTRAN or assembly.

-- Dr. Eldarion --

Re:Not quite ANY programming language...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha...right. I aimed a little lower, and thought for sure someone was going to try to use Brainf*ck.

Re:Not quite ANY programming language...

[mikeee]

When I was in school, one sick $#%@#$$ did a programming problem set in Postscript. You had to send his code to the printer to execute it. :)

Re:Not quite ANY programming language...

[xmath]

heh, I did that once :-)

the teacher of some boring statistics course made the mistake of saying ".. in a programming language of your choice"

here is the postscript file, in case anyone cares

Re:Not quite ANY programming language...

[Jellybob]

Looks like it's time for the ageless anecdote about the guy who wrote a web server in Postscript.

Re:Not quite ANY programming language...

[katchins]

Google Code Jam 2003

Program in any language that is supported by Visual Studio .NET 2003

Brought to you by Microsoft, the last word in
programming languages....

P.S. - Other language coders need not apply.

can't wait

[kemster]

while (true) { System.out.println("Don't bother entering, because I am going to win!"); }

Re:can't wait

[speakup]

while (true) { System.out.println("Don't bother entering, because I am going to win!"); }

You lost precious seconds with the unnecessary braces. Maybe you should rethink your print statement.

Re:can't wait

[fucksl4shd0t]

while (true) { System.out.println("Don't bother entering, because I am going to win!"); }

Finally, a compelling reason to use C++ instead of Java:

while(1) printf("Don't bother entering, because I am going to win!\n");

If you enter "Google code jam 2003" in Google

[TasosF]

What you get is a page full of Perl Jam.

Re:Please define "any programming language"...

[pigscanfly.ca]

Here here .
The page says a number of the components (entry rounds and what not) will be timed . For a quick little job perl can cut hours of off C/C++ style work .

Uhhh... Specs, please

[Anonymous Coward]

But what are the problems they want solved? It sounds like they want h0xerz/crackers, not real problem solvers/programmers.

Examples of problems

[192939495969798999]

A typical Google sample problem: Suppose there are X lockers in the hallway, and someone is opening every Nth locker where n is a prime number. Write a program to parse all the html files on the internet and return something useful. :)

Re:Examples of problems

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't laugh out loud often on /., but I did for this. Thank you!

Re:Examples of problems

[Anonymous Coward]

Same for me. I don't burst out laughing much ever but that really cracked me up.

You can use any language you want

[rk]

as long as it's Java, C++, C#, or VB.NET.

Re:You can use any language you want

[Mantorp]

what, no HTML?

Re:You can use any language you want

[Anonymous Coward]

I could hack any system with my 1337 html scripts.

You can thank microsoft for that.

You may argue that linux is safe. I can argue that linux people never mattered, will never matter, and dont matter.

Programming competitions, give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is looking for engineers with the programming skill to rewrite the world's information infrastructure.

Yeah, right. As somebody who manages a number of programmers, I know that the kinds of people who win competitions like this (such as topcoder) simply won't make very good employees. The best programmers I work with are team players who know how to communicate, document and manage working relationships. The high-intensity macho time-critical programming that these competitions fosters is usually counterproductive in a business environment.

- W G

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

Very good point!

-PJ

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

The high-intensity macho time-critical programming that these competitions fosters is usually counterproductive in a business environment.

Very good point! A company hiring programmers who think that they are the best (fastest or whatever) is just asking for trouble. These programmers are usually bringing conflicts when working in teams... Unless all other members of the team listen to them religiously and shut up, but then this can bring even more trouble if the "best" programmer was wrong and nobody dared criticizing his ideas.

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not about hiring people who think they are the best, it's about hiring people who are the best.

The problems you are described occur because of management problems.

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[lars]

[i]The best programmers I work with are team players who know how to communicate, document and manage working relationships.[/i]

Wouldn't you know it, most of the highly ranked TopCoders I've met excel in all of the areas you mention. Just because someone is smart and skilled at one thing doesn't mean they're deficient in other areas. Usually there's quite a strong correlation.

[i]The high-intensity macho time-critical programming that these competitions fosters is usually counterproductive in a business environment.[/i]

TopCoder emphasizes (or attempts to) problem solving skills, which tend to be universally applicable.

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[lars]

Well, apparently TopCoders suck at posting properly formatted Slashdot comments. You're right after all -- no real world skills whatsoever!

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[geekoid]

Gee, whatever you do, don't do the tasks neccessary to see that communication happens. I mean you would really want to manage now, would you?

Mos of the top programmers I have worked with, hateed meetings, came to work around 9-10 oclock, worked till 6-7 oclock and were very terse when documanting.
However, I trusted there skills, and respected there experience, and saw to it that they had direction. These guys kicked out some wicked code that blew people away.
When I was managing, I took the intiative to see that what was needed to be communicated, was communicated.

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[Vaginal Discharge]

Hm... I plan to write documentation for the code that I write during the contest. This way I can confuse other coders with my wildly commented code during the challenge phase. Muhahahaha

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[mess31173]

Like when you communicate there instead of their. You seem like management material to me...

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

This is truly the root of the "software sucks" problem. I partiaally agree with the first poster. I work with a lot of people who can "kicked out wicked code", but other than over-dramtize this situation, this is the type of code that has those obscure bugs that can never be tracked down, because the guy who wrote it was shooting from his hip, and can't remeber what the fuck he did. A mature software developer will use those brainstormin sessions to document, whether that means UML diagrams, prototype code, or text documents, or whatever. But thats what I believe makes a really valuable coder. Someone who can write code that works, and can be passed off the maintinaer level coders to be worked on without wasting their time trying to figure out some fuck-nuts bullshit ego trip.

I really believe that this is supremely displayed by the fact that a perl programmers skill level is judged by the level of obscurity he or she demostrates in code. A real fucking problem.

Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[fucksl4shd0t]

Why was this modded troll? I was making a joke about the original poster's username, which is vaginal discharge. Maybe the moderators need to pay more attention...

Traveling?

[-Grover]

Hrm...

Sounds like to win any money you have to travel, so keep that in mind when you sign up.

"The top 25 performers in Round 2 will be invited to compete for cash prizes in the Championship Round onsite at the Googleplex (Mountain View, CA) on November 14th."

They are floating the bill though, according to the terms

" Google will provide travel accommodations for each finalist to attend the Championship Round. In addition, Google will provide overnight accommodations and all travel arrangements to and from the airport, as well as to and from Google's headquarters. All other expenses are the responsibility of the contestant. "

Re:Traveling?

[RobertB-DC]

Sounds like to win any money you have to travel, so keep that in mind when you sign up.

But like you said, they're paying for the transportation to Mountain View, plus hotel accomodations... I think I can deal with the other expenses.

Obviously looking for people to hire

[Washizu]

Friday, October 17 8:00 AM
Monday, October 20 8:00 AM
Friday, November 14 4:00 PM

Who with a job could participate?

Re:Obviously looking for people to hire

[bmalia]

No kidding. Why couldn't they do at least the initial round on a Saturday. Sunday's no good, football takes priority.

Re:Obviously looking for people to hire

[What is a number]

The same people who read slashdot while at work...

---
I type this every time.

Re:Obviously looking for people to hire

[Smid]

Who with a job, in europe can participate?

9pm EST = 3am uk time (4 continental europe)

Then again, less and less of us programmers have
jobs in europe though.

Stick with modern tradition, make it Indian time.

Re:Obviously looking for people to hire

[GnuPooh]

Never met a good programmer that would be awake at this hour, independant of job status.

Re:Obviously looking for people to hire

[Anonymous Coward]

Friday, October 17 - 8:00 AM - Qualification Round begins
Monday, October 20 - 8:00 AM - Qualification Round ends

correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems to me that the initial round lasts the whole of the weekend

Re:Obviously looking for people to hire

[Frac]

Friday, October 17 8:00 AM
Monday, October 20 8:00 AM
Friday, November 14 4:00 PM

Who with a job could participate?

Qualification round requires you to complete the problem set between Friday, October 17 8:00 AM and Monday, October 20 8:00 AM. You can complete the problem anytime over the weekend if you prefer.

The last date you gave out is for the championship round, which is onsite anyways.

Re:Obviously looking for people to hire

[Anonymous Coward]

"Friday, October 17 8:00 AM
Monday, October 20 8:00 AM"

They're not looking for students then?

Re:Read up, people!

[Peridriga]

*cough* Great idea... but, let the public decide.

Links without the referrer tags

• Sams Teach Yourself Java 2 in 24 Hours (3rd Edition)
  
• Sams Teach Yourself C++ in 24 Hours, Complete Starter Kit (3rd Edition)
  
• Sams Teach Yourself C# in 24 Hours
  
• Sams Teach Yourself Microsoft Visual Basic .NET 2003 (VB .NET) in 24 Hours Complete Starter Kit

Re:Read up, people!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello Mr Sams. No, I don't want to buy any of your damned books, ok?

Art contest announced

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

In related news, the American Art Foundry(*) has announced an open art contest. Artists are free to use whatever medium they choose, as long as it's oil on canvas.

* Not a real organization

Re:Read up, people!

[cygnusx]

> http://www.amazon.com/exe .../inertishomepa-20

Good luck to your Amazon Associates account too.

Which of you moderators modded that ad up as Informative??

Free Money

[CGP314]

Prizes range from t-shirts to ten grand and you can use any programming language you want to solve the increasingly challenging problems." Update by J: ... as long as it's Java, C++, C# or VB.NET.

You can withdraw as much money from my bank account as you want!*




* Must be a deposit of at least $1.

I'll use VB

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll rewrite the google pagerank algorithm in VB.Net. If google starts using it I will have solved microsoft's challenging problem of beating google.

Wheee...

[G33kDragon]

So that means I can use pseudocode, right? #1 Google answer was: "Think about problem. Drink caffeine. Problem solved." :)

For charity !

[Elie De Brauwer]

As stated in the conditions: (http://www.topcoder.com/pl/?&module=Static&d1=goo gle&d2=google_rules_overview) Participants who do not meet the citizenship requirements to win prize money are still eligible to compete. However these individuals will be required to donate any cash prizes to charity. Participants will choose a charity to receive their winnings from the TopCoder approved list of charities. A prize-winning participant may request a new charity be added to the list, however it shall remain in Google's sole discretion to add that charity after reviewing the proposed charity's credentials. It sucks to be belgian :( while UK and irish residents may enter, hasn't anybody heard of Europe over there ? I wonder what the topcoder approved charity list looks like.

Re:For charity !

[-Grover]

TopCoder approved charity list:

1) TopCoder
2)

Re:For charity !

[Anonymous Coward]

TopCoder approved charity list:
1) TopCoder
2)

1) Organize contest with prizes
2) Make sure some partecipants can't win the money
3) ??? (let those partecipants win?)
4) Profit!!!

Re:For charity !

[fucksl4shd0t]

hasn't anybody heard of Europe over there ?

Dude, there's no life on Europa.

Re:For charity !

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Association for Ignoring Non-Americans
2. Organization for the Realization that We Are Better
3. Organization for *OTHER* Countries (Besides Canada) Doing Cool Things for Once
4. etc etc

Re:For charity !

[Captain Large Face]

3) Profit?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Re:For charity !

[The-Bus]

You forgot:

3) Profit!!!!

Re:TopCoder! Is Pure Evil

[jellomizer]

I don't know if they fixed it or not. But I hated it when I beta tested it a while ago. I found it had trouble compiling anything even a hello world application. The fact that you must get use to using TopCoder is a reason not to use it. Besides I am against programming competitions because they encourage speed in programing not not a good planned layout of thought. The primary reason why most of the code out their is crappie is because their is lack of design and everyone trying to write this super optimized code. So once their is a problem the code is so optimized that it cannot be fixed. But if you win Congrads, if not dont take it seriously you could still be the better programmer.

New definition

[Mostly a lurker]

O'Reilly Developer News is reporting details of the newest Google programming contest

This must be some new meaning of the word details with which I an unfamiliar. The www.topcoder.com page certainly contains details in the normal sense. The O'Reilly page contains what I would call a brief summary. Interesting concept though.

Re:Read up, people!

[khr]

Or better yet...

Bobs Teach Yourself Java 2 in Less Time Than Anyone Else
Bobs Teach Yourself C++ in Less Time Than Anyone Else
Bobs Teach Yourself C# in Less Time Than Anyone Else

no.

[pb]

\\ no, it isn't.

Re:no.

[Neon Spiral Injector]

You mean: // yes it it, as of C99

Re:no.

[lederhosen]

double false = 3.0;

try that in c++

Re:no.

[Xerithane]

int new = public * ( true - false ) / class;

great idea

[zarniwhoop]

how about running a competition to tackle large, real-world problems? Like efficient search engines, indexing etc - these problems are big problems that need solving.

Re:great idea

[BigGerman]

sounds like cool new development model -
big biz wants to build a web frontend, edi exchange, etc. They announce a contest and everyone can enter and code it up whether you are EDS or just a kid. Winner gets the prize, EDS gets a t-shirt ;-)

TopCoder competitions low on quality

[Agave]

the way to win a TopCoder competition is to not only be analytical enough to figure out the solution but also to able to type quickly and accurately as well as to take shortcuts like using short variable names. I certainly wouldn't want any 'TopCode' in a production system.

I was disappointed with my experience in the TopCoder competition at Java One because even on day three, when I was comfortable with the TopCoder IDE, knew that speed was king, and I knew the solution right away I was still beaten out by over two minutes. I mean, I knew the solution, typed it in, compiled first time, ran a test case, passed, and submitted the solution. Damn near perfect in my mind but I was very low man on the totem pole time-wise (~4min vs ~2min).

I guess learning to touch type by MUDing just doesn't cut it :)

flee
flee
flee

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[MickLinux]

Is it possible to have code written ahead of time? I mean, it says "ideas must be your own." But if you've put together a large library of useful functions that you've coded yourself (fourier transform; heap sort; Wheeler-Burrows transform; entropic compression; and so on), could you grab those code sections, and throw them in?

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[lars]

Yes, but it's highly unlikely that such code would be useful. The maximum size of input in TopCoder contests is quite small (a 50x50 array at most). Something like Burrows-Wheeler isn't going to be of much use for that kind of input.

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

In fact this is how many of hte early competitions went. The upper echelon of competitors also happened to write problems. Sure they would be exempt from competing when it was their problems on the block, but they freqently cavorted their submitted problems between each other.

What was worse is that TopCoder used to round robin the top people so that most of them competed in their own rooms. This was eventually changed.

There were countless other "cheats" to winning with TopCoder.

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[Mia'cova]

I don't think the point of this is to judge the best possible code. I think this is a solid way of finding fast thinking intelligent individuals. Lets face it, anyone Google hires will have to conform to how their organization organizes and manages code. Anyone who can win this sort of a contest is going to be able to indent code the right way with a little practice ;)

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[lars]

*cough* bullshit.

Can you cite any examples of what you're talking about? Or at least not post Anonymously if you're going to put forth such allegations?

I've been competing on TC for a year and a half. The closest I've seen to what you describe are a couple of instances where they used problems that had previously been used on ACM ICPC regional contests. However, some of these problems are so simple in concept or well known in the computer science literature that such happenings aren't surprising.

It sounds to me that you just didn't do as well as you liked and are bitter. Chances are these problems that you think were "frequently cavorted between each other" were solved using standard techniques that you were just ignorant of.

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[fucksl4shd0t]

Is it possible to have code written ahead of time? I mean, it says "ideas must be your own." But if you've put together a large library of useful functions that you've coded yourself (fourier transform; heap sort; Wheeler-Burrows transform; entropic compression; and so on), could you grab those code sections, and throw them in?

Hell, then I'll enter with this code: solution = SolveAllProblems(problem);

It's a great little function I worked up back when I was in grade school...

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

There is an plugin available that wil parse the problem and write out the declarations and such for you, together with a testing harness to run all the sample testcases at once without you having to type them in. It is legal to use it in the contest.

Also, many of the higher rank coders have a library of macros they use. Bascially a few pages of stuff they paste befroe every solution. (Note: They all agree that this should never be done in production code, so even if you're horrified don't assume they'll be coding like this in the real world).

Things like:
#define for_all(it, x) for(it = x.begin();it!=x.end(); ++it)

The above saves time when writing STL loops (All highly ranked topcoders doing C++ use the STL heavily).

Register with topcoder and you can look at the high ranked people, and their asnwers to previous problems. You'll see what I mean.

Re:TopCoder competitions low on quality

[floydigus]

the way to win a TopCoder competition is to not only be analytical enough to figure out the solution but also to [be] able to type quickly and accurately as well as to take shortcuts like using short variable names.

Well, why not? You make it sound like a problem to be able to type well!
I think you should get paid less if you can't type properly.

No mention of TopCoder?

[leibnizme]

Lest we forget, TopCoder is powering this contest. Here's an e-mail I received describing everything in more detail:

-----------

Google is pleased to announce the Google Code Jam 2003 competition, powered by TopCoder. Compete against the top programmers in the world for a share of $25,000 in cash and enormous bragging rights. Google is growing and actively seeking top engineering talent to help solve some mind-bending programming challenges on a global scale.

The competition will consist of a two-week registration period from October 1st to the 15th. All TopCoder members who intend to compete in this competition must register for the event through a new registration path that has been set up exclusively for the tournament.

All registrants must then participate in the Qualification Round. The Qualification Round will be open from Friday, October 17th at 8:00 AM EDT to Monday, October 20th at 8:00 AM EDT. During this 72-hour period, a competitor must complete one randomly generated problem set. All competitors will be given a score for their performance on that one problem set.

The top 500 participants from the Qualification Round will advance to the first online round to be held at 9:00 PM EDT on October 24th. All competitors in this round will be sent a t-shirt commemorating the Google Code Jam 2003. The top 250 scorers from Round 1 will advance to Round 2, which will be held at 9:00 PM EST on October 27th.

The top 25 scorers in Round 2 will win an all expense paid trip to the Googleplex (Google's corporate headquarters) in Mountain View, CA. Here, they will compete in-person in the Championship Round for their share of $25,000 on Friday, November 14th at 4:00 PM EST (1:00 PM PST).

The grand-prize winner will be awarded $10,000. Second, third and fourth place winners will be awarded $5,000, $3,500 and $1,250, respectively. The remaining finalists in the Championship Round will each receive $250. In order to receive a cash prize, a competitor must be at least eighteen years of age and a lawful permanent resident of one of the nine countries approved for cash prizes. All other cash prize winners will choose a charity to receive their prize.

Google's engineering organization is pleased to sponsor this contest and is looking forward to meeting the top coders. Participating in this contest propels you to the front of the line for consideration for open positions in our engineering group. You are encouraged to submit your resume for immediate consideration for open positions at any time during this competition. Please visit http://www.topcoder.com/googlecodejam for more information. And remember to register starting on October 1st!

Best of luck to you in the Arena!

The Google Team

Re:No mention of TopCoder?

[Elwood P Dowd]

All other cash prize winners will choose a charity to receive their prize.

Sweet! I'm coding for Hamas!

Re:No mention of TopCoder?

[fucksl4shd0t]

All other cash prize winners will choose a charity to receive their prize.

I wonder if the FSF and/or EFF are listed in their charity list?

Re:Please define "any programming language"...

[RevMike]

Wimp!

If you want to use another language, just write a quick compiler/interpeter in C and then use whatever language you want. Personally, I'm going to write a quick and dirty emulator then code in Z80 machine code.

SPAMMER I says!!!

[bigjocker]

Glad to see the real identity of the spammer who has been anonimously posting links to amazon products with himself (inertishomepa-20) as referrer.

Guess you forgot to check the "Post Anonymously" check box this time. Anyway, this is a spammer people, dont click those links.

On a different note I see you are also the owner of the infamous martin-studio website that has been placing ads on the mirrors for slashdotted stories ....

Re:SPAMMER I says!!!

[Bucky Katt]

On a different note I see you are also the owner of the infamous martin-studio website that has been placing ads on the mirrors for slashdotted stories .... Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? -- Clarence Darrow

I didn't know Clarence Darrow read Slashdot.

Re:SPAMMER I says!!!

[blibbleblobble]

"Anyway, this is a spammer people, dont click those links."

If you were to do a "while(1){ wget "link" }, it might activate some alarm bells at Amazon's script-detector, designed to clear the payment account of anyone who runs scripts on an amazon referer.

Of course, it might only trigger on a purchase.

Re:SPAMMER I says!!!

[xchino]

He even looks like a prick! Funny, he seems to have mistakenly listed himself as a programmer, instead of spammer.

In case you want to thank him personally for his services:
Here's a handy map.
Anthony Martin, (310) 532-8393, 17450 Van Ness Ave, Torrance, CA 90504

Re:SPAMMER I says!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, he's a spammer. Why not just hack his website?

And next...

[K-Man]

Google Temptation Island!

Insane offtopick but nice anyway

[MTWZZ]

For the dutch (-speaking) people: Koekel.

As the lady said, faster's not better

[orthogonal]

Programming with a time limit is not a great indication of how likely someone is to writes= robust, durable, re-usable code.

My best code usually results from refactoring, and is made up of several small classes made up of small functions, where each function does one thing and does it well, and each class has a well-defined role, usually in collaboration with other classes.

This is the result of crafting and thinking, not a result of typing as fast as I can, trying for a quick and dirty solution to one specific problem.

Re:As the lady said, faster's not better

[lars]

I am glad you understand some of most basic and well known ideas of software engineering. But I would have to disagree. I think if someone has the problem solving skills and precision of thought (as one member so nicely put it) to do well at TopCoder, they certainly have the skills to write robust, durable, and re-usable code. I would argue that such concepts are in fact fairly trivial relative to the skills TC emphasizes.

Re:As the lady said, faster's not better

[Darth_Burrito]

I've never done Top Coder challenges before... but I just don't buy it. I've known people who excel at solving these kinds of academic problems but lack experience or in solving non trivial real world problems.

For instance, my old boss did very well academically. He was also an extremely fast coder. Yet he went on to write hundreds of production perl scripts and asp pages without use strict, option explicit, comments, and essentially no abstraction. He didn't declare variables, he summoned them from the aether (sometimes) initializing them in any of a half dozen included files. He thought he was above all of that stuff, after all, he could understand his work perfectly. Maintaining his work was pure hell, especially after it had been modified over the course of a few years.

I think if someone has the problem solving skills and precision of thought (as one member so nicely put it) to do well at TopCoder, they certainly have the skills to write robust, durable, and re-usable code.

Can you back this up? What would prevent my old boss from doing well at Top Coder? I can believe that people who can solve academic problems quickly will be more likely to be good software developers, but I don't believe solving these problems quickly implies someone is probably a good developer. The best developers I know tend to work slowly, cautiously, and in paper first, all mannerisms that a Top Coder competition doesn't select for.

C is C++

[ProfessionalCookie]

Of course you know that C++ is a superset of C.

would that be considerd "C++"

That's like saying "We're gonna have a race, you can use bikes.
Racer #664381: Um can I use a Schwinn since it works like a bike.

Re:C is C++

[divec]

Of course you know that C++ is a superset of C.

Not quite. E.g., the following may behave differently:

printf("%d\n", sizeof('x'));

In C++ it prints sizeof(char) whereas in C it prints sizeof(int) (I think).

Your choices

[955301]

Yeah, the limit on programming languages reminds me of The Jerk. No, not my grandfather, but the Steve Martin movie. Specifically, a scene where he is working at a carnival stand:

Carnival Goer:
What'd I win?

Navin:
Uh, anything in this general area right in here. Anything below the stereo and on this side of the bicentennial glasses. Anything between the ashtrays and the thimble. Anything in this
three inches right in here in this area. That includes the Chiclets, but not the erasers.

CANT WAIT!!!

[Serapth]

To watch the live telecast on ESPN!

Hey... if they will televise spelling bee's, they damned well better televise a coding contest!

Hmmmm.... ok... im a geek, and even I would find that dull as hell.

Re:CANT WAIT!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It can't possibly be more boring than poker, can it?

Re:CANT WAIT!!!

[Jacer]

What are you talking about? That would be the event of the....century! Here goes Mr. X, finishing out what looks to be line 100,000, and oh my, what's this? HE'S GOING TO COMPILE! Error, error error, oh the humanity, let's take a look at how Mr. Z is doing. Mr Z appears to have written only 100 lines, but it does compile, and What's this?!?!? It's fully functional! Mr. Z, here's your prize, one XXXL T-shirt. Tune in next week for Linus vs. Bill on the Professional Coder Network. Will be forced to where a M$ sucks shirt to work on Monday? Only one way to find out!

Re:CANT WAIT!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless they did interspersed things like interviews.

"Do you have a family?"

"My dad disowned me, so I got married."

Re:CANT WAIT!!!

[JohnQPublic]

Reminds me of the classic:

Jesus and Satan have a discussion as to who is the better computer programmer. This goes on for a few hours until they come to an agreement to hold a contest, with God as the judge.

They set themselves before their computers and begin. They type furiously, lines of code streaming up the screen, for several hours straight. Seconds before the end of the competition, a bolt of lightning strikes, taking out the electricity. Moments later, the power is restored and God announces that the contest is over. He asks Satan to show what he has come up with.

Satan is visibly upset and cries, "I have nothing. I lost it all when the power went out."

"Very well, then," says God, "let us see if Jesus fared any better."

Jesus enters a command and the screen comes to life in vivid display, the voices of an angelic choir pour forth from the speakers.

Satan is astonished. He stutters, "B-b-but how?! I lost everything, yet Jesus' program is intact! How did he do it?"

God chuckles and says: "Jesus saves."

Bleh, sounds like a regular topcoder compo

[autopr0n]

I donno, maybe the problems will be more 'google specific' but it sounds like a regular TopCoder compo. I'm glad TC is able to find some sponsors, but this isn't really all that exciting.

Anyone remember when TopCoder gave out TONS of money? They would give out cash to 3/8th of the participants like 3x as week. It rocked. And it was distributed to each 'room' so you only had to compete against 8 other people (so in order to get cash you only needed to beat 5 people). Despite this, I only placed once :P. They accidentally sent me two checks though.

The craziest thing was that they started this after the dot-com crash, so everyone thought they were basically insane, but we were happy to take free money :).

Anyway I might play this time around. Of course, you'll need to do better then n-249, rather then 3 but it still might be fun :)

TC used to allow C++ though, I wonder why they gave up on that.

I use Objective C you insensitive prick!

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Objective C you insensitive prick!

If you use VB to win...

[Enrico Pulatzo]

you also get a mask, to protect your anonymity ;) Just kidding!

Re:Not 100% true.

[botzi]

Of course you know that C++ is a superset of C.

It's quiet easy to write C code that does not compile on C++ compilers(malloc() casts anyone??? etc.), so the answer to this question is more likely to be:
"Yes, you may write C code and it'll be accepted as long as it compiles on our compiler package.".

Can we use Google to find the solutions?

[phamlen]

As virtually every good developer can attest, the first thing you do when stuck with a hard computer program is....

...Google for the answer!

I wonder if that violates the spirit of the competition?

Google may be looking... But not for YOU!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Blaw, blaw, blaw l33t coding sk1llz... Blaw, blaw, blaw

Go home to your mama's tit, script kiddie.

Re:Please define "any programming language"...

[Anonymous Coward]

AFAIK all C++ compilers will compile C code; if they're getting picky, just change all structs to public classes.

But that's not the real problem. The real problem is they've provided a choice of four languages which are all based in the same programming paradigm. What's missing from their list of approved languages? Well, how about any functional languages -- ML/OCAML, Haskell, heck I'd even settle for LISP! Modern functional language compilers now produce code whose runtime rivals that of C or C++ (of course when your bug rate drops an order of magnitude, and you can concentrate on algorithms instead of low-level implementation, that's the least of your concerns!)

What about Prolog? If runtime speed isn't an issue, it's an ideal fit for many AI problems. I've even found myself using oddballs like Forth in the real world.

A good programmer, just like a good physician or a good carpenter, becomes fluent in the tools of the trade and selects them according to the problem domain. Having a programming contest in which only OO languages are permitted is like having a cabinet-making contest in which all work must be done with screwdrivers.

Re:TopCoder! Is Pure Evil

[tempny]

There are many things that make a coder good. Insightful and elegant design are one. But being able to quickly bang out a solution for a self-contained problem quick and dirty style is just as sure a sign of skill, to me at least.

Outrage!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is outrageous, how am I supposed to write a program if I can't use Visual Python?

Languages

[spoonboy42]

So in other words, use an OO language or use complete and utter shit (*cough* VB *cough*).

Python?

[PDHoss]

No Python? I though Google was a biggish pusher of Python? Something new here?

PDHoss

Yeah, I saw this in the rules

[siskbc]

When your stuck on how to code something.... run a competition and let others do the coding for you.

I saw this in the rules:

1. Function #26 must be called "CheckForSearchKing(char * HTMLpage)." It must accept a pointer to a long buffer of char.
2. Function #27 must be called "PageRank(char * HTMLpage)." It also accepts a pointer to a char buffer, as shown. Also, it must call Function #26. Function #27 should return 0 if Function #26 returns true.

$100 pc contest

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the real issue:

Build an off the shelf internet ready brand new pc out of any new components with all legally licensed software for $100.00 or less including cpu, keyboard, mouse, display, etc.

Re:$100 pc contest

[avrincianu]

Man, you've watched "The first 20 million dollars" way too many times... although you do have a point here.

Anyway, go C ! Go Python ! What's that VB.NET ? Real programmers write in FORTRAN. If not FORTRAN then ASM. If not ASM, then it's not worth writing :D

Did you people notice that the languages google wants us to write programs in for the contest are all compiled ?

Other fun Google recruiting methods

[K-Man]

I've noticed they also bought some of their own keywords pertaining to certain CS topics, eg:

Inverted Index
Page Rank
Suffix Array

They've even put some individual researchers' names in for sponsored links:
Udi Manber
Gene Myers

It's interesting, as they seem to have some things but not others. The suffix array stuff is useful for full-text indexing, which they may be interested in, but they don't flag searches on more recent topics in the field.

Re:Other fun Google recruiting methods

[foxcub]

They also place a link that says "Graduating? Come work with us." on their front page when they detect a university IP address (or that's how I assume they differentiate when to show the link).Quite an audience reach there, I would imagine.

this is insane....

[jaal]

"All individuals who are 18 years of age or older are eligible to register and compete in the Google Code Jam 2003" ...no where it mentons that i need to drive.....u insensitive clod....

Much of the world is ineligible to win

[Anonymous Coward]

From the rules:

All individuals who are 18 years of age or older are eligible to register and compete in the Google Code Jam 2003. All citizens and lawful permanent residents of the following countries (and all non-immigrants currently residing in the United States with a valid Visa) are eligible to win cash prizes after completing the appropriate affidavit and tax form:

# Australia
# Canada (excluding Quebec)
# China
# India
# Ireland
# New Zealand
# Sweden
# United Kingdom
# United States (including the U.S. territories of Guam, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands)

How about most of the rest of Europe, Russia, Asia? Some of the most talented coders in the world I've met are from there. Not to say that coders from the eligible countries are bad, but they are shutting themselves from a huge talent pool.

Re:Much of the world is ineligible to win

[praxis]

This probably has a lot more to do with tax laws than anything else.

Re:Much of the world is ineligible to win

[ant_slayer]

So what... you think there was a board meeting where they decided to cut out a bunch of countries because they didn't want "those people" to get the money?

No, my guess is that there are legal issues. Google is probably limiting the field because of numerous problems that only the lawyers really understand. I'm sure they're not intentionally excluding countries that produce great coders. Besides, if you come from an ineligible country, you can still play -- but your prize goes to charity. You might still get a job offer though =).

-Josh O-

Re:Much of the world is ineligible to win

[fucksl4shd0t]

This probably has a lot more to do with tax laws than anything else.

Or they could be trying to keep terrorists out. Heh.

I've decided to enter, but I want them to have an automatic GPL deal that automatically inserts GPL headers in your code, 'cause I'd really hate to lose just because I had to type out the GPL at the top of every problem solved....

OH wait, Google's gonna own the code when I'm done? Fuck that.

Re:Much of the world is ineligible to win

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure they don't exclude countries on purpose--in many countries this contest is considered a lottery and you would need to register it etc etc. TopCoder has the same restrictions for their regular contests.

publicity efforts?

[jaal]

"In addition, all prizewinners agree to cooperate with Google's and TopCoder's publicity efforts, without further compensation. "
u know what? they are gonna print those 2 'o's from google on your bums...or should i dare say....breasts and call "TopLESSCoder"....

Could have predicted tenor of threads....

[drpickett]

I think that this is a neat idea - Of course, nobody here wanted to discuss the pros and cons of the contest, they just wanted to prove to the rest of the world that they could sling senseless esoterica and criticize Microsoft

Anyhow, all bull$hit aside concerning Lisp, Python, Haskell, Modula-2, Ada, COBOL, ALGOL, FORTRAN, and whatever other nonesense I saw, I'd like to see some of the socially challenged here at /. put their money where their hacking chops are (assuming that their mom's will let them stay up past their bedtime)

It would be amusing to see those who would engage in mindless holy wars put their programming chops to the test, and earn some legitimate bragging rights

I agree with a previous poster that it would be useful to have more contests like this - Here is my programming assignment for you:

Using a computer language of your choice, write a program that will factor a very large integer of arbitrary precision (1024+ digits) in as little time as possible - Points awarded on speed of execution

8^)

Re:Could have predicted tenor of threads....

[fucksl4shd0t]

Using a computer language of your choice, write a program that will factor a very large integer of arbitrary precision (1024+ digits) in as little time as possible - Points awarded on speed of execution

Ok, here goes:

You will need a Whitespace compiler to be able to run the listing I provided.

Re:Could have predicted tenor of threads....

[Anonymous Coward]

def factor (n): return (n,1)

You didn't specify any factors in particular you wanted, but you can't beat constant time

Bad Naming?

[DigitalNinja7]

The name reminds me of a traffic jam, as if the code will be a tangled mess. I understand the word "Jam", but as a Software Engineer and musician, I think it best that we left the word "Jam" to the rockers, because it just doesn't carry over well to something that's supposed to beorderly.

Boring

[codepunk]

TopCoder stuff is boring ... It consists of a bunch of coding exercises much like you are subjected to in school.

Re:Boring

[lars]

Why do you study computer science in school if you find it boring?

Re:Boring

[Anonymous Coward]

But you get paid for it. :)

Re:Boring

[fucksl4shd0t]

Why do you study computer science in school if you find it boring?

To be good at TopCoder.

Re:Boring

[n7ytd]

It consists of a bunch of coding exercises much like you are subjected to in school

...or on the job. If you routinely find that your CS classes are boring, you might want to think twice about making a career out of it...

Re:As the lady said, faster's not NECESSARY better

[botzi]

But it can be.
I've adopted the habit to always search for a rapid solution of a problem and then once I have a functional code I start to optimize,build, rebuild and defragment it in smaller modules.
I Have a friend who at the same time is uncapable of coding anything at all before writing down some project design notes on paper.
You'll be surprised how often at the end we arrive at the same solution(at least we're surprised;o))).
So,back on your point, fast coding != robust, durable, re-usable code, but I don't really see a way to put a note on those for a competition purposes or am I wrong?????

Read the article

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is sponsoring this TopCoder Event.

Topcoder does not utilize anything other than Java, C++, C# and VB.net

Re:Read the article

[Anonymous Coward]

ah yes... VB

The choice of ummm... well I can't find a nice way to say it, so nevermind.

MOD up funny

[Stone316]

If I had any mod points, i'd give you a Funny... laughed my ass off when I read that.

Oh, sure . . .

[Tzaquiel]

You can use any programming language you want to solve the increasingly challenging problems ... as long as it's Java, C++, C# or VB.NET.

I use Fortran, you insensitive clod !

What About Delphi?

[ad0le]

Why do people always discount Delphi when discussing OOP. I know, I know... it's Object Pascal, but it's surely OO and is a fantastic alternative to atleast two of the languages mentioned in the artice (C# and ceartinly VB.NET)

Re:What About Delphi?

[the_mushroom_king]

I agree! Borland's Delphi (Object Pascal) is one of the best languages out there. Ture, it used to be WINTEL only, but is slowly moving cross-patform (starting with Linux). Sadly, in the US at least, it plays second fiddle to Micro$oft's less powerful, harder to us offering. - TMK

Re:What About Delphi?

[fucksl4shd0t]

Why do people always discount Delphi when discussing OOP. I know, I know... it's Object Pascal, but it's surely OO and is a fantastic alternative to atleast two of the languages mentioned in the artice (C# and ceartinly VB.NET)

Um, maybe it's because Delphi:programming::hamburger:food ?

Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[dom1234]

Are they afraid it wouldn't be fair because we're too good ?

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[cameronsto]

lol

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[Anonymous Coward]

No...They're trying to keep their employee base politically neutral.

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[JavaScrybe]

Yeah!!

Why?
Pourquoi, tabarnak?

I would have liked to go, but for that little stupid phrase that goes like "(excluding Quebec)". Is there a law that's not abiding? I recognize my english is not THAT good, but I can certainly manage Java very well...

Quebec is, after all, one of the best source of IT expertise (regarding the population ratio), first in the publication of french content of the web (yes, OVER France, who's 10 times more populated).

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[JavaScrybe]

But that wouldn't "political discrimination" be against the law, even in the 'States? It is in Canada and Quebec...

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[Anonymous Coward]

What an easy question...
French is not one of the languages listed and Google / Top Coder didn't want to violate any of Quebec's language preservation laws.


Pourquoi ne pouvons-nous pas employer le Perl?

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[cp4]

This is a question that has puzzled me for years. Contests throughout the Internet be they from the United States or based in Canada will exclude Quebec most of the time.

I've asked all kinds of people but I can never get an answer. Perhaps Quebec has some dumb law which requires contest rules to be bilingual or something?

It is quite a piss off.

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.topcoder.com/rtables/viewThread.jsp?for um=7167&thread=41364&message=68231#68231

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it's not a question of language, but a question of protection... The dumb law is there to "protect us" of all those evil contest which could help us have more fun or more money or more sex (hmmm maybe not more sex...) The government thinks we can't take care of ourselves. Only Loto-Quebec has the rights to screw us legally...

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Explained here : http://www.racj.gouv.qc.ca/racj_en.asp?ndn=00&txtS ection=faq

Re:Why can't Quebec people participate ?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Because every state/province/country has their own sweepstakes laws which say what types of contests and what types of prizes are legal. It is common to exclude localities where the contest doesn't meet the legal requirements.

Hahaha

[Gay Nigger]

The NSA does soemething similar, breaking up a problem into smaller problems which, individually, have no apparent practical application. So not only are you practically giving away your solutions to a for-profit corporation, you don't even get to find out what problem it ends up solving.

Code away, suckers.

Perhaps you can explain to me...

[MickLinux]

... the difference between a problem that is Object Oriented in nature as opposed to NotObjectOriented.

Also, does this contest heavily advantage those who know all 4 languages?

As far as it goes with me, I can program C, but I get real uncomfortable, real fast, with C++, have never done C#, have done only the most basic Visual Basic (MS Word stuff), and never got JAVA going. For JAVA it's been a problem installing the compiler from Sun -- somehow, it never installed correctly. For the others, it was always a problem of too little money, and good enough morals not to steal the compilers, even when I really really really wanted the compilers and couldn't afford them. So anyhow, I don't read these languages real well, but I could probably read C or JAVA okay in a pinch, enough to identify obvious algorithmic errors. Which all means this probably isn't for me.

Re:Perhaps you can explain to me...

[FatSean]

Um...if you can't figure out how to install the Java Developers Kit, perhaps programming computers is not for you.

Re:Perhaps you can explain to me...

[MickLinux]

Ummm... there were licensing problems that kept it from being on the Debian site, and bandwidth problems that kept me from getting it from the Sun site. I was on a very droppy Lithuanian connection, that -- at the time I had time to do installs -- was advertised at 128 kbaud, and was running at 0.5 - 3 kbaud due to overused bandwidth.

All of which may be part of the reason that this contest may not be a good choice for me to enter.

But as for programming, I'm pretty good with C and Assembly. I've written Binary Spatial Partitioning programs from scratch, in C first, and then Assembly to get it to run fast on a 12 MHz machine. My skills aren't so much in coding as algorithms, though: I understand a ton of different algorithms. Related to that: another, better reason not to get into the coding contest: I make typos, and it takes me a while to find them. However, that's probably more due to the fact that I haven't had a lot of time to program these last 5 years.

Oh yes... my main problem with learning C++, Java, and so on has been not having books that categorize the functions. Those books are how I learn best, but money's been too much of a problem to be able to afford them.

Re:Please define "any programming language"...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an academic, aren't you?

Any language, but not any nationality

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why they restrict most European participants from winning money (UK, Sweden, Ireland are in). Or Pakistani (Indians can win). Or Israeli ...
Looks like a pretty substantial form of discrimination to me ...

[OT] Re:Programming competitions, give me a break

[Cpyder]

However, I trusted there skills, and respected there experience

Jeez... People, it's really not that difficult!

There: not here, adverb - at or in that place
Their: not mine, possessive form of they
They're: they are

Your: possessive form of you
You're: You are

Its: possessive form of it
It's: It is

If you want to exercise, go here.

Happy spelling!

basic

[cyrax777]

But all I know is is basic! oh well

Nice

[microsoftisass]

I wonder if I can win with MUMPS!

Re:Nice

[smurfbane]

MUMPS, as the name implies, is a disease of a language and should be vaccinated against.

/me throws 2 bits at VB, whistles innocently for a moment and then pours penicillin on it.

It's a shame

[getnuked]

... that a single language wasn't chosen, something that is so prevalent, and widely used such as C. With such diverse programming options you are ultimately comparing apples and oranges.

I suspect that the languages chosen where based on the topcoder 'marketplace', which is java and .net (topcoder is a retailer of source code, you do know that, don't you?). More than likely they don't care about comparing coding skills; perhaps they are more interested in recruiting coders who can spit out solutions for their clients, in as short a time as possible.

It's the Willie Wonka business model

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Hand out golden tickets
2. Hold contest
3. Hire winner
4. ???
5. Profit!

No Python? From Google?

[DonGar]

Google has always been rumored to be heavily based on Python. I'm surpised they wouldn't want to use it for the contest.

Of course, it would put everyone who didn't use Python at a disadvantage.... ;>

Not to start a political flamewar, but...

[Homburg]

Actually, under Russian socialism, workers were paid a wage. Not necessarily a particularly good one, but that's better than Russian capitalism is managing.

Google Programming Tip #423

[Anonymous Coward]

It is never a good idea to stuff complex ideas like that onto a single line. This approach is confusing. Instead try giving each operation its own line and temporary variable:

int temp233422 = public;
int temp233423 = true - false;
int temp233424 = temp233423/class;
return temp233422 * temp233424;

Even this can still be confusing though, because you forgot to comment! Honestly, how is anyone supposed to figure out what that code does just by looking at it? Try the following:

/* Do The Math */
int temp233422 = public;
int temp233423 = true - false;
int temp233424 = temp233423/class;

/* Return */
return temp233422 * temp233424;

Undocumented code is the devil's work. Good programming practices will not only make your work easier to read and understand, but will help you maintain this code in the future!

more like reality show

[BigGerman]

where participants are locked up with just vi and gcc, every day are forced into new combinations for pair programming and every week they vote one out. Voted out ones become QA.

Microsoft buys google

[dazst]

Update by J: ... as long as it's Java, C++, C# or VB.NET.

First, Microsoft Eyes Google: http://www.google.com/search?q=microsoft+eyes+goog le&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Then this ;) :
http://www.google.com/microsoft.html

And now, we can only code with Windows-0wned^H^H^H^H^H compati^H^H^H^H^H^H^H (PHP,TCL,etc) 0wned!! code?

puhlease

Tell me Microsoft hasen't already bought google...

Re:Microsoft buys google

[The Cydonian]

No, it hasn't.

Re:Microsoft buys google

[damn_hippy]

Or maybe it has....

Another Contest Idea

[nate nice]

There should be a contect for sys admins,....you get a Linux server and an account...they "bug" it somehow....give you an idea of whats going on and have you locate patches, remove/add files, kill things etc...all the fun things a sys-admin has to do...and generally quickly. Of course it wouldn't be a good measure of how great a sys-admin someone is, but would be fun for peeps none the less.

No Objective-C / COCOA or GNUStep?

[tyrione]

Afraid Apple's MVC paradigm and strong frameworks would make it an unfair competition?

heh, it might work.

[pb]

I've worked with some "C++ compilers" that didn't implement the bool types at all, amongst other things.

I guess as long as people are willing to do it.

[infobeing]

Anyway, I think they care as much about the promotional as the code.

Corporate Scheme?

[anubi]

'I mean, it says "ideas must be your own."'

I wonder if somewhere in the application EULA, there is some clause which assigns any IP, copyright, or patent rights of any entry to the company, much like a RIAA contract. This would be a helluva way of capturing lots of code snippets so that the company could be indemnified for their usage, despite the fact they did not author that concepts. A "sharp business" technique to use the leverage of Modern Copyright Law to see to it that even the coder which coined some innovative technique maybe can't even use it himself in another application?

As we enter into an economy that appears to be funded by the legal ability to grant permission, instead of the ability to create, I am increasingly skeptical of ulterior motives.

What's that with the country list?

[dr.matrix]

I've read the conditions, and it says there quite bluntly that only the citizens of the following countries are eligible for cash prizes:
Australia, Canada (excluding Quebec), China, India, Ireland, New Zealand, Sweden, United Kingdom, United States.
Everyone else has to donate everything they win to a charity which TopCoder chooses.
Why is that? It seems a bit mean that I, just because I live in Germany, wouldn't get a single cent in case I won..
(More ironic yet, a Canadian from Vancouver gets all the bucks, while one from Montreal doesn't..)

Re:What's that with the country list?

[Anonymous Coward]

They speak English.

If you want to work in the USA (fuck knows why) you need to speak English

Ain't You Gotten that yet?

(Hang on Sweeden, non Euro member..also Uk, hang on Eire (sorry IreLand). So most of Europe, if its Catholic (except Ireland (sorry Eire)) excluding Swiz-a-land, hang on where is Japan? Also India I read an inflight magazine on a trip to Bombay that said they had people who could read but I got bored and ...)

GET Verb
I will get
I got this some time ago

VERB
Doing word
Tense--Related to time
I had/I got--pass tense
I have/I gotted(hehe)--present
I will get/I getted(hehe)--future

gotten--> some fucked up English only a thick Irish toss-pot would come up with

Re:What's that with the country list?

[The Cydonian]

Struck me strange too. Tax reasons, perhaps?

Incidentally, that seems to be TopCoder policy, not Google's per se.

Translation:

[Dr. Photo]

and you can use any programming language you want to solve the increasingly challenging problems." Update by J: ... as long as it's Java, C++, C# or VB.NET.

You can have any beer you want.... as long as it's MGD, Horse Piss, Donkey Piss, or Pabst.

(With apologies to drunken rednecks and Algol-holics everywhere...)

stay tuned for the new development methodology

[the-build-chicken]

FP -- Free Programming

Whats the Quebec problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that *BSD or 'cus they speak FRENCH?

Also, how can you tell if a Canadian comes from Quebec?

Is it tatooed on the side of their necks?

Window-> Old Saxon, hole that lets the wind blow thru.

Unix-> Pun on Multics, i.e.One sad-O

Machintosh-> Scots. Raincoat, made of vegitables and twees

OSX-> Ang. SOX
SOX-> Ang. OXs
OXs-> Like a cow or bull, slow, dies young, taste nice

PieMenus started as Postscript!

[JohnQPublic]

Don Hopkins wonderful Pie Menus idea got it's start as an add-on for Sun's aborted NeWS window manager. One of the NeW things about NeWS was that you wrote UI parts in Postscript! P.S. That's not Don in the movie, although he is the one doing the voice-over during the demo.

Model Ts came in several colors

[JohnQPublic]

This is a common error. Model Ts were available in lots of colors.

Eligibility: People who don't have day jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the first round of the contest runs from 8 am on *Friday* to 8 am on Monday. Plus the points depend on how soon you submit after the contest begins, so in case you thought you could start on Saturday and still get it done: you're probably out of the running before you've begun.
Thanks, but I think I'll stick to my current job and show up at work that Friday.

Re:Read up, people!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try whore. Just for that:

Everybody go to this whore's website at http://www.martin-studio.com/ use the password marcie (so incredibly easy to hack that it's sad, just fucking sad) and check out how ugly his wife is!!!.

Re:Read up, people!

[randyest]

Ha Ha!

Any country!!!

[MonsieurX]

Since Luxembourg or other EU countries are not supported I will not play. At least these bozos found a way to loose ten thousand other coders too...

Are countries in Europe (other than england and china !!!!) supposed to be incompetent english speakers in your eyes? Why china and india and not other competent countries?

Im appaled at their lack of intelligence!

Re:Please define "any programming language"...

[Raphael]

Having a programming contest in which only OO languages are permitted is like having a cabinet-making contest in which all work must be done with screwdrivers.

I agree. That's why I posted the previous comment and suggested some scripting languages. I am not too familiar with ML, OCAML or Haskell, but there are some problems for which I would use Erlang. It's a pity that this fine language does not get the attention that it deserves.

A good programmer, just like a good physician or a good carpenter, becomes fluent in the tools of the trade and selects them according to the problem domain.

And the tools of the trade include not only the languages, but also the toolkits and libraries available for those languages. Although I have done it a number of times for specific tasks that required highly optimized code, I would not implement the sockets code for a client-server or some sorting algorithms, etc. Instead, I would install the appropriate libraries and use them. There is no need to re-invent the wheel every time.

<rant>And now a minor rant: my original comment was moderated twice as redundant (down to -1) only because I posted it just a bit after a similar comment that got modded up to +5. A bit more than one minute made the difference. Maybe I should not use to preview button and fix the typos? Or maybe I should not take care of formatting my message in HTML for better readability? The interesting thing is that several other redundant messages that have been posted one hour later did not get moderated down. So the conclusion is that one has to post very fast or post late. But posting just a bit too late (e.g., spending one minute previewing and correcting the comment) can kill a comment that would otherwise be as good (or bad) as another one that gets moderated up very quickly. Ah well, this is Slashdot, after all...</rant> ;-)

Re:Read up, people!

[Anonymous Coward]

My take on it is

Firstly you say topcoder isint that job/business/real programming oriented. This is true ...however that does ensure that the programming tasks are more interesting.

Someone mentioned that one should try to find a solution to factoring large integers.Well for one that problem doesnt require any of the sort of questions that a real world programming job throws up.That a near pure algorithmic problem and will probably be solved properly by mathematicians/computer scienticts who are really bothered about code readability or re usability because all that is relevant with such a question is the algo.

someone mentioned there is a corelation between topcoder top performers and good industry ppl . I I dont know a lot on this and cant comment .. but I can say I know of atleast 2 high rated (I am certain asking around will reveal much more.. jobs arent generally discussed in such competitions) programmers gainfully employed in industry jobs (one in the gaming industry the other in a biotech firm)

Yes topcoder.com problems tend to emplasize speed and implementation but this is basically a side effect to make problems a bit more real world.If you like more algorithmic stuff try out the acm contests or the IFPC or if you want more (with less implementation hassles) try out the ioi or usaco problems .If you still arent satisfied you might as well go out and try to solve the factoring problem someone pointed out.I assure you typing wont be a issue if you try to go it in polynomial (of log n) time.

As far as why some European countries are not eligible and countries like India ,China are eligible its probably because of the fact that these two countries make up a large chunk of hte worlds population and serve as a source of cheap labour (topcoder's aim is to identify and recruit good programmers).There are legal issues involved with winning money in such contest and making a country eligible involved expensive legal hassels and probably that the reason they have been avoided.