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Chinese Astronaut Makes It Back Safely
brindafella writes "SpaceDaily is reporting that China's historic first manned space mission has ended with the safe return of its first astronaut Lieutenant Colonel Yang Liwei, 38, who landed just before 6.30am Beijing time (2230 UTC 15/10) at the designated recovery zone north east of Beijing. The capsule has been recovered and opened and the pilot is very much alive, 'and doing autographs.' Furthermore, 'Premier Wen Jiabao was seen on television talking to Yang on the phone and smiling widely and clapping after he hung up.'"
Congrats, dude.
BytesTemplar.com
Thats the problem with Chinese space missions, as soon as one has landed, you want another.
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
So we never went to the moon, never sent the Hubble in space and are not building a space station (which you can see flying around at night). Oh and that time when I was at NASA, the shuttle lift-off was only my imagination. Either YOU are smoking something, or I'm smoking something.
Now, congratulations to the Chinese to jumping over this first hurdle of space exploration, but as the article also points out, their designs are based on 36 year old designs (with some upgrades). Now that this is done, how fast will they advance? Can they move full steam ahead, go to the Moon, to Mars, etc? Or will it take them another 15 years to do the next step?
Congrats, China! You managed to put a man into orbit (and return safely to the Earth) without the benfit of stolen German technology! Space exploration is no longer limited to Russia and the U.S. - show them what you're made of!
:D
Go Forth And Conquer!
why am i so excited?
A blog like any other.
While I normally don't support China in just about any way (due to their human rights stances), I must say Congrats on getting people in space. It's a huge undertaking obviously, and i'm glad to see that everything went well.
Perhaps soon we will have more countries docking at the International Space station instead of just Russia and the US.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Is there anyone else that thinks this is China saying, "Screw you America, we don't need you and your restrictive anti-trust business practices?" I mean, all the recent events:
China Open-Sources
The Great Firewall of China
China's Moon Launch
Is it just me or is this China trying to assert its technological domninance, so to speak?
but he also has the id right before yours :)
(#7225673), (#7225674)
Something fishy... :)
I'm just curious if there are any third-parties (U.S, Europe) out there keeping track of China's manned space mission to see if they actually succeeded. Not that a major world power would EVER lie!
I'll form my OWN solar system! With blackjack! And hookers!
That's the post number :(
I can't even claim to be drunk :(
I for one would rather have china than Bill. The former's food is better, for starters.
We're spending all out money destroying Iraq and then rebuilding it.
Not meaning to sound bitter, and I think its fantastic that the Chinese did this. I hope China goes to the moon or beyond.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
President Hu Jintao watched the blast-off at the Jiuquan Launch Center and hailed the launch as "the glory of our great motherland."
Hu said the culmination of the 11-year space program was a "historic step of the Chinese people in the advance of climbing over the peak of the world's science and technology."
Is it just me, or is there something ominous in the way this is worded? The Chinese government believes that the motherland will inevitably surpass other nations in science and technology, and this is a major advance towards the goal of global supremacy.
Dude, you sellin? Cuz I'm out.
According to the article on space.com, the mission cost 1 billion. To quote, "Yang hurtled around the planet for the rest of Wednesday, making a planned orbit shift in midafternoon and stopping work only to rest and eat Chinese food designed especially for space travel." I for one think 1 billion dollars is well worth it for space chinese food. Along with space icecream, we can now have a complete and balanced space diet. I look forward to the day when the guy on the phone of the local chinese restraunt asks if i want my dumplings to be steamed, panfried, or 'space'.
Let's not forget the recent brazilian tragedy. They were on target to be #3, right? Hopefully they can regroup to be #4. It is interesting that the creators of the USS Enterprise did not anticipate that other countries might create crafts in a non-cooperative manner --- Or did they just assume that the world would become the united states? Voluntarily or by force, i wonder.
Me.
WOW how many people has the U.S. sent in to space? stupid chineese
Yeah but they did it with a couple of old playstations, a mod chip and a 1972 toyota pickup.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I thought that usually more than one person goes into space at one time for safety measures. If he gets hurt or something and there is no other people to help him while in space he could become injured or dead and take very valuable and expensive equipment with him.
On a serious note... China, if you're reading this, Congrats !!!
Oh, and thanks for all the spam
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
Did we get to see this guy before the launch? I am not advocating a conspiracy or anything, but I would bet that China had a backup prepared to make the media appearances if anything had gone wrong. They were certainly quite worried about having the launch televised.
Well that was amazing, you managed to turn an inoffesive cliche into racist crap. My hat off to you. Idiot.
are saying it is hardly a feat.. all the developed countries brought a man back home alive, now if they killed him on the first flight.. now that would be light years ahead.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
While it will take time for places like China to really catch up with us, it's not as long as some might think.
The US space program is a MESS. Shuttle launches aren't even news worthy anymore unless they blow up. (no offense intended, those who died are still heroes in my mind). But without a challenge, our space program will continue to lag.
We need more countries like China to catch up. We need someone to out pace us and kick start the US interest in space.
Hopefull this will be the first step.
Arr your base are berong to us!
I am sure he'll be dead with 3 weeks.
Congrats to China. But think what we would have if we had an international space program. This would (hopefully) overcome competion of science, there all trying to advance science, China is entering the game now. I know it doesn't seem like there is much competition in the space world, but in unmanned missions, we are all in competition. Projects the the International space station are dominated by the U.S. First step is for the U.S. to stop pissing off other countries.
-Seriv
From:megaspam@fgfgreg114.cn
To: "Dave21212@slashdot.com"
Subject: OFFER OFFER OFFER ! KT (space travel) 5hsdrsheher44y4w2112
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2003 20:29:16 +0900
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Space flight 4-U !!! 2-DAY
Acting now to get chance to go with space flight !
see wedsite for details !
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"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
It's best chalked up to Red propaganda and left at that.
Hey, the '50s called; they want their prejudices back.
Maybe we can have another space race now. Maybe I'll be able to go to the moon this time. Maybe they'll make me go to the moon this time.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Even Nasa congratulated china on its first manned launch, and trust me they have the equipment to know if the launch really happened
Wow, these racist posts are getting pretty full on - racial slurs about black americans get modded down into oblivion and racial slurs about anyone else get modded to the stars.
It seems like the time is right to split slashdot into us.slashdot.org and wholeworld.slashdot.org.
Or maybe under14s.slashdot.org and over14s.slashdot.org
in Manifold: Space. The spirit of our people is asleep. I just hope this is enough of a wakeup call. If it isn't, in 25 years we may be just as planet-locked as Iraq is land-locked, and with the Chinese playing gate keeper to boot.
Since it worked, no one will be killed by the state for their failure. Thus, saving their families from paying for the bullet used to kill them!
It's funny how many retarded non-jokes certain people make about how (in this case) Chinese speakers can't pronounce the letter 'l', seeing as how that's actually a problem for the Japanese, rather than the Chinese, and also seeing as how there's a whole shitload of sounds in Chinese that are difficult for English speakers to pronounce correctly.
we have now proven we can put an object in space, change its trajectory, then put it anywhere in the world.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You must be mistaken, this is the post about CHINA sending a man into orbit, not Alabama.
Banaaaana!
but it's really a pleasant surprise for a country's GDP below developed countries standard could send a man into space, way ahead the other Asian countries like India, whose heavily backed by US, and Japan, which has well-advanced technologies and economy, in this regard.
What's so good about yet another country throwing people into space? It shows that the largest country in Asia spends their focus and resources in the advancement of human's benevolence, rather than overwhelming military power, which already undergone huge cut in China in recent years.
It can be seen in India(offical) and Japan's(inofficial) announcement that they're pretty eating sour grape in all this. Think about the plus side! China spends effort on something other than militarily threating your nations. Look at your insane neighbour North Korea.
I don't know where did you get the information from. The Chinese missile program has a much stronger influence from the Russian, esp in the 50's, than from the American. The bulk of the satellite launching infrastructure had been done largely on their own when they were embargoed by both, ie between 1960-80.
h ttp://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/icbm/df-5.htm
China launched its first satellite on Apr 1970.
First geostationary communications satellite on Apr 1984 (and first ICBM DF-5 finished testing in 1980. A bit offtrack, but we all know ICBM's design is not that different from satellite launching). All these are prior to the alleged illegal missile technology from Hughes etc in early 90's... In fact, even before the first commercial Chinese satellite launching in 1995.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/china-00u.html
Clever, not many would so abhorrently create a mistake like that to cast their discerning eye over the bulk of our species...or...wait! was that just a mistake??! Kinda makes you rethink whether we're so sapient, doughnit?...
The money that they spent, on the space mission, would benefit the poor folk that are struggling to make ends meet in china.
I wonder if any amateur astronomers have verified the launch? The media on this is so controlled by the Chinese gov't, skepticism is definitely in order (really for any story coming out of the Chinese media). It's all about independent sources. Unfortunately, NASA would never say, "We checked it out; they weren't lying!" Not a great thing for international relations.
What I love is the report that the taikonaut was reading a flight manual during flight... "Now was I supposed to push the green button or the red button?"
It'd be nice to have more countries pull up and dock with the International Space Station, but I bet when they built it they just didn't put in enough garage space. I mean, it was already over-budget, what would the point of putting in docking for twelve, when a two car garage (with one in the driveway for emergencies) would suffice?
;)
Of course, the important thing most ISS astronauts are probably asking themselves is:
Do they Deliver?
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
But it's like watching the Special Olympics. :P
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
FINAL REPORT:
Size
[x] Big and REALLY empty
[ ] Full of stars
Green alien women:
[ ] Yes
[x] No
Complete waste of time
[x] Yes
[ ] No
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Boy do I smell sour grapes. Despite your excitement of the Chinese making it into space 40 years after the Russians and the Americans, the average Chinese citizen will have less freedom than the average Iraqi. Blasting into space will not bring Chinese political prisoners out of the painful shadows of their torturers. At least the money and effort of the Americans and their coalition will bring freedom to a people. The money spent by the Chinese government is a nice PR stunt but it will do little for the common man's ability to be free in China.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
That courage and the American spirit of adventure is alive and well... albeit in China. In the US, we're still wringing our hands and calling for an end to manned space flight, because we lost a shuttle and seven fine astronauts - along with our backbone as a people.
Kudos to the Chinese. It's about time we had some healthy competition in space. Let's get another Space Race started. Maybe that will get the US Congress and NASA off their collective asses and back into the game (and we might see a human on Mars inside of 10 years). Maybe we can drive a little rivalry to foster some nationalistic pride in the US again (but I doubt it).
I know this: if the Chinese lost a capsule, they'd bow their heads in homage for a moment of silence, then get to launching another one, two weeks later. That's the kind of resolve that allows a nation to succeed. The rest of the world should take note, unless they want to be following in the footsteps of the Chinese for the remainder of the 21st century, instead of leading the way.
I guess this would be what they call a first post!
And that negative moderation is what "they" call karma burn.
hopefully they will encourage development on either side as we experienced with the first space race - a little rivalry never hurt anyone.
Personally, and i am aware this may sound a little paranoid, but the sooner we establish independant off-earth colonies the better, and i think we are more likely to push this if someone else is trying to do the same thing.
Indian analysis are already on the news saying We can lunch a man into space if we wanted too...
Mmmmm... Indian food, Chinese food, those guys can lunch *me* in space anytime!
Build your own website - full service homepage system your m
It is if the previous person that was occupying your country thought it was fun to put people feet first into plastic shredders because you publicly disagreed with their political views. People in China today are being throw in jail or re-education camps because they disagree with the current political structure. To me that is pretty hard core communist.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
1961 called....they want their news back.
I congratulate the Chinese, and I place high hopes that my homeland of India will soon follow in their footsteps!
Let's get some more players in the space game. Maybe someday the USA will outsource their routine non-military space operations to India or China, like they do with their programming, manufacturing, etc!
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
... are belong to us" - Chinese Space Program
Thank you for raising my own somewhat battered self-esteem several notches.
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
- Red
PlanetThe PRC is a very insecure state when it comes to international affairs, and also very capable when it comes to R&D. The USA is just not putting much effort or money into Mars. ... Well, anyway, who knows, a fun thought..
--
om Shanti
Isn't it a funny coincidence that China gains manned access to space the same year the USA loses it? Looks like one of those 'turning points' historians love to write about. Maybe they will.
``L'imagination au povoir.''
Lots of giggles!
hey!
whether he has to go back to jail now.
Seriously, we're the home of McDonalds, whose goal is to cram cheap process foods down the throats of each of the 6 billion on the planet.
Every mid-to-mega power nation inwardly hopes to trounce the world.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
"Welcome to the 60's", etc. comments are simply pointless. First, I hate to break this to some of you, but our rockets haven't advanced all that much since Saturn V. The shuttle is still decades old and we have yet to start on a replacement. China doesn't have to catch up to the 21st century to level with us, all they have to do is get up to the 80's technology, which with their immense pool of college graduates, this won't actually take 20 years.
Next, keep making those comments if it makes you feel better, but what are other nations supposed to do? Throw their hands up into the air and just simply accept the American lead and say "The Americans and Russians already beat us to it, what's the point of even trying?" God forbid the underdog from daring to dream big... How about doing something more useful like trying to advance our own technology? Maybe it's time to replace the shuttle with some 21st century technology and puts some gap between us and the Chinese?
Lastly, who really cares where the technology and the help came from? Does China care now that they know how to do it? Let's face it, technology has always been built on top of the works of others. Let's not forget who were the first people to use gun powder and create rockets. China is going to built on top of the new knowledge and keep advancing.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Some country (not China) decides to invest in a "Space Program" shows a bunch of people dressed in astronaut suits. Shows film of people loading into rockets. And then fires their giant "Space missile", purposely fails it and causes it to crash and explode in some neighboring country killing thousands of people. I just hope Israel and/or Palestine doesn't decide to invest in a "Space Program" any time soon.
> Space flight 4-U !!! 2-DAY Acting now to get chance to go with space flight !
Someone hacked my Web site to say "Orbited by Chinese!"
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
so who do you think is going to be the first to jump at declaring it a hoax?
I vote for the Iraqi Information Minister...
Why??? He'll be paraded like a hero and used for propaganda and, given China's capitalistic drive today, to endorse products. :-)
EvilCON - Made Famous by
I've always justified it by thinking that perhaps between now and then, China and India annihilate each other in some nuclear holocaust, which most of the non-Asians (especially the Europeans) survive intact. I get the feeling that Asians make up most of the world population. If you look at the most populous conuntries in the world, most of them are Asian. Indonesia is pretty big, as well as Japan. Then again, you have to think, how did Paris end up the capital of the Federation...
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Should it be perhaps
quid res Latinae
(what thing of latin)
rather than
quid quid latine ?
Been a while since I took that language.
On a different topic, Why are they called takionauts? That is, is that what they are called in chinese? are the chinese making up greek words in roman letters?
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
In 2010: Odyssey Two, Arthur C. Clarke saw the Chinese as being the third country to send a piloted mission to Jupiter, and becoming the second to reach it (after the Americans because of the psychotic HAL botched their date with the Monolith). The Chinese, in a mission cloaked as an attempt to build a space station, manages to outrace the joint Russian and American mission to Jupiter. Clarke didn't forsee the end of the Cold War, but he was years ahead of everybody (except perhaps for the Chinese themselves) in predicting China's great leap upward.
I hope this starts the begginings of another space race. With our (America's) woefully old technology, hopefully the Chinese will catch up soon and force us to start really innovating again.
Yes, there are valid reasons why America has been so lax in the development of space travel. Mostly the fact that we can't seem to justify the expense in light of the profound economic problems in our country.
Of course, there is the opinion...my opinion...that in the long run, mankind's advancement in space is far more important then short term economic woes. And if it takes one of our (America's) uneasy neighbors to start making us nervous for us to get back on the ball in full ernest, then it's a good thing.
The Internet is generally stupid
There's alredy been a chinese on Star Trek. I say this in past tense since Voyager got axed. Garett Wang (Harry Kim, Comms Officer) is of Chinese descent.
Think they'll get an invitation to help on the ISS? I mean it is developing slower than expect and China has the resources. Maybe there's some issue with sharing space station technology with China but I don't see how that could be a national security issue.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Yeah, but his character wasn't. He played a Korean.
It's "Taikonaut", you insensitive clod!
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
So you think they really got him out of one of their prisons?
What on earth happened to the Space Exploration Act of 2003? That was the most exciting piece of news I've heard this year, and I haven't heard a word about it since it was introduced. What happened to it? Did it quietly drift into oblivion? Did it stall in committee? Is it dead yet, is it ever going to get to a vote?
HR 3057 was a coherent, realistic, and bold plan to revamp America's space program by setting it on an actual schedule with goals, and taking its focus away from "get into space and then come back" and toward doing actual interesting, forward-looking, long-term things, like developing intraorbital craft, setting up construction sites at Lagrange points, setting up research centers on celestial bodies, etc. It was well-designed, had provisions to ensure the schedule was stuck to, and could work. Where did it go?
Does anyone know what a good place is to check up on the status of introduced bills, since the general media seems to think the actual functioning of our government so hideously boring as to be beneath mention ever?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
As a number of commentators have noted, the Chinese Shenzhou capsules are very similar to the Russian Soyuz. Perhaps just coincidence, but China does take in a lot of foreign, hard currency that the Russians would dearly love to have.
While there is no smoking gun that they did buy the capsule design, it is positively known that China's Long March series rockets received (illegally) several key guidance technologies from US aerospace firms (I think it was Boeing and Hughes, but I may be wrong). At the time (mid-90s) there was massive demand commercial satellite launches, but all Western launch sites were booked for years and then-current Chinese failed so often as to be un-insurable. A few illegal technology transfers, and the reliability of Long March rockets soared, as did the order books of satellite builders. The offending companies still do business with the DoD, and never even had a thorough management as a result of this. Go figure.
As for exploring space, Japan, France and Brazil all have demonstrated successful space launch capabilities, they simply haven't bothered to strap a sack of flesh to the top of one of their rockets.
First Post belongs to Yuri Gagarin.
Talk about budget allocation!
... that Wang told a recent SF convention.
Near the end of Voyager's run he called up one of the "killer Bs" (Berman or Braga, the executive producers of the show) and asked when a Chinese character would be portrayed on a Trek series. As the parent post noted, there hasn't been a notable Chinese character on the series yet.
B's reply was something like "what do you mean, you've been playing one for the last six years!"
Well, that explained why the writers had Harry Kim spouting Chinese parables on the show for all those years! As you noted, Kim is of course a Korean surname.
That's putting it mildly. Our "captains of industry" don't think any farther ahead than four or five months. Our politicians don't think any farther ahead than the next election.
(Some of the other posts remind me of the Onion's sideline caption: 6,000-Year-Old Culture Now Considered a "Developing Nation".)
All the researched, published, well-documented reports about modern China -- i.e., ones in bookstores, not slashdot; actual books, not single web pages and sound bites -- point to plans stretching over the next ten to fifty years, not just for space, but for China in general. They realize that almost none of the plans will come to fruition in their lifetimes, but that's okay, their descendants will put the finishing touches on and see it happen. We in the U.S. wouldn't dream of investing in something that won't benefit the same people investing in it.
Analogy: In the minutes that China's rockets take to slowly lift off the ground, America is racing the quarter-mile in top-fuel hotrods and claiming they rule the world... while China's rocket gains momentum... and keeps gaining momemtum... and eventually covers distances the little modded hotrod can't even dream of. Yes, they're in for the very long haul.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
That's the OTHER Yang, who died in prison the same day and was cremated on the spot. This one is an upright, moral, 100% Hans Chinese, educated at Qinghua University, indocrinated with Communist ideology, but with an eye towards advancement and growth. It's all in his records... ;-)
EvilCON - Made Famous by
You missed: Homosexual (Actively Discouraged)
sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
You replied to a known troll.
Does the fact that he signs with his supposed credentials seem in any way suspicious to you?
Besides, I can't think of one Indian person I know in college who reads slashdot, mostly because people here curse them out non-stop, blaming them for lost jobs.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Does the name Kahn Noonian Singh ring a bell? Also, Picard had an Indian as chief engineer for a while. Come to think of it, there was a Chinese engineer as well.
On the other hand, it has taken them close to a thousand years to move from inventing the rocket to getting into space. So maybe the Chinese influx into Starfleet happens a century after Voyager returns home.
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
China has always been crowded, and always been centrally administered/socialist, since 1500BCE and earlier.
It's the only way they have managed to survive. Eventually as they continue industrializing (and reduce the population vs. land area, esp. in rural zones) conditions will improve.
We want China to keep striving at "pointless" pursuits. It's a good sign, overall; regardless of the unpalatable practices (and that's your opinion) that many suffer under.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Since Columbus day was on 10/12/03 in the USA I have to mention that while China's effort is indeed history book worthy the world is on the cusp of something even greater.
The privitazation of space travel will definately get a boost to the world's economy as private entrepenurs exploit new technology and we finally get the Columbus factor in our lifetime.
1) reliable proven technology (reusable ships)
2) People with the spirt of adventure (companies that don't outsource everything)
3) Politicos investing in lucrative deals (Isabella==Carly Fina?)
Indeed Liwei San opened up a door for his country, but whoever earns the X-Prize opens the door for the next century and the rest of humanity.
My bet's on Spaceship One & Rutan
.. are you 15 years old?
no, it was empirial. And everyone was encouraged to become civil servants, merchants were frowned upon, and resources were aggresively micromanaged by local magnates. Expressing excessive emotion, or religious conviction beyond societial norms was consider immoral.
Huh, sounds pretty socialist to me. It was only AFTER they tried to Westernize in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and FAILED, that they reverted to old ways under the guise of a (new) Communist revolution.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
At the last moment they noticed that instead of the Shenzhou V, they had pulled the Grand Golden Dragon Astral Festival that they had been saving for Chinese New Year out of the hanger.
"One small step for Yang, one giant leap for a third of Mankind."
Listen to yourself, "welcome china to the '60's." And then you wake up and notice how Goldman Sachs predicts China to overtake the US economically in 2039 "Within four years China will have overtaken Germany; Japan by 2015 and crossed the US by 2039 to become the world's largest economy ( All in U.S dollar terms)"
http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?M enu=26&story=25146M 3&menuId=242&menuItemId=2825&xml=%2Fmoney%2F2003%2 F10%2F12%2Fccecag12.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?grid=
Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
Parent's joke stolen from SNL.
I had to dig back into the low mod comments you were replying to to determine that your comment wasn't about homosexuality being actively discouraged in China.
Oh well.
A Good Intro to NetBS
On the other hand, the US is not even 250 years old, whereas England has called itself that since I think no later than the 11th century, France the 1200s IIRC, and I'm not sure about Spain or Portugal or the other big exploration countries.
"And let's face it: Russia was only steps behind America for much of that race."
Russia was ahead for the first half or so; they were first to launch a satellite, the first to launch a man*, the first to orbit a person (which was for them wrapped up in the first manned flight, while for us it took until our third launch), and the first to perform an EVA. The first thing we were first at so to speak was inflight rendezvous, and that wasn't until Gemini 12. The first time we put ourselves clearly in the lead was Christmas 1968 with the flight of Apollo 8.
*They were also the first to orbit a woman (maybe 1967? The late 60s come to mind), however as this is not a technological achievement I left it out.
On cnn.com:
Do you fear China's manned space launch will ignite a new Cold War-style space race?
Yes
No
Just a thought, I really dont understand the 'fear'. A space race would be a wonderfull thing today I think, not something to be afraid of.
Just idle thoughts at 2am...
What the heck is a 'sig'?
no - quidquid in latin means 'whatever'.
I once read that the biggest problem the US had with Communism was that it provided a framework for modernization within a generation. Given that very few outside the US believe anymore that they (the US) give a crap about human rights, and the relatively rapid rise of China as a world power (economically, technologically, militarily),I wonder how much of that is true.
China was economically stagnant until the communist party abandoned pure communism and adopted capitalism in some of the costal regions of the country. In the interior, where the economic system is still largely communist the population is barely better off than it was in the 19th century.
You don't need any conspiracy theories to explain why the US opposed communism. The real problems that the US had with communism are quite easy to identify:
(1) Communists tend to commit mass murder whenever they get the chance (in the case of China the various purges and mass starvation campaigns killed off between 45 and 103 million people - i.e. roughly 3 to 7 times the number that died in the holocaust).
(2) Communists tend to persecute the religious (that's about 90% of the population in the US).
(3) Communists have at various times threatened to destroy the United States, and have actually destroyed a number of other democracies (most of them have of course revived after the collapse of Communism).
Communism provides a framework for killing a lot of people and constructing an industrialized economy that does not work. That is not "modernization", it is a sad parody of modernization.
Does anybody know where I can get decent...NON STREAMING video of this historic even? I've check some torrent sites and all the common news sites. CNN sucks...you have to pay...even then it's streaming...no torrent sites have video, but they have lots of "kill bill" and porn. Argh. A little help anybody?
Greg
-END-
Life is like pants... fit in or you don't fit in.
Not sure how thats any different to Amnesty International not being allowed into camp X-Ray.
Innocent until proved guilty my arse.
But your point about Nuclear weapons being sent anywhere in the world within 30 minutes is well taken!
So, given the opportunity, I would recommend Mandarin over Cantonese, as it is more useful, and IMO, it just "sounds" more pleasing and less "annoying".
The image of a Chinese taikonaut planting a red chinese flag on Mars first might stir up some action in the US.
This was the argument Bush made as a reason to attack Iraq (operation freedom!). Maybe USA should attack China to liberate their people? Oh right... They only attack weaker and undeveloped countries without nuclear weapons or anything like that, to stay safe. Forgot.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Take pure "adventure" spirit, not connected to commerce for a moment... A Brit and a Tibetan were the first to conquer the world's tallest mountain. Where were the Americans?
Probably at home like the Brits, when Sir Edmund Hillary, a New Zealander climbed Everest with Tenzin Norgay, his Tibetan Sherpa guide.
Brits and Norwegians were the first to race to reach the south pole. Where were the Americans? This was adventure, at all costs, at its finest.
Yes, Roald Engelbregt Gravning Amundsen was the first person to reach the South Pole (beating Robert Falcon Scott by a month), but the American adventurer, Robert E. Peary, was the first person to reach the Arctic pole in April 1909 - two years earlier.
Its a fair call. Although I believe that the US signed the Geneva convention treaty which governs the treatment of prisoners of war.
I honestly think that if Israel stopped incursions into other peoples land, that the risk of Iran responding so violently might be mitigated slightly.
We didn't hear about it until *after* he'd got back. What if something had gone wrong? "Astronaut? What astronaut? We haven't seen any astronaut..."
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
First he surmises the Challenger accident (if you haven't read it, it's worth doing just for that!), then the Chinese manned space flight, the manned flight to Titan, the US-Chinese war... ups, getting ahead of myself, we'll still have to wait a while for that...
On their first trip to outher space, Yang Liwei has gone mad. He told everyone he had seen the Chinese Wall form space.
Chinese scientists think Yang has gone dillusional in space and are confinsed it's not safe for Chinese man to be in space.
Future trips have been cancelled.
No kidding, I just got the following email from the US (one of many others, I rarely receive spam from anywhere else).
Perhaps when your country does something about the flood of spam from within its own borders someone might listen to your bleating.
{spam changes="emails removed"}
From xxxx@freemail.lt Thu Oct 16 00:29:12 2003
Return-path:
Received: from mac.com (smtpin03-en2 [10.13.10.148])
by ms22.mac.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003))
with ESMTP id for xxxxx@mac.com; Wed,
15 Oct 2003 14:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from freemail.lt (dsl-200-95-84-88.prodigy.net.mx [200.95.84.88])
by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin03/MantshX 3.0) with ESMTP id h9FL9TKI020792; Wed,
15 Oct 2003 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:16:02 -0400
From:
Subject: uS Pharmacy Will Write your Prescriptions bsnfpdvq
To: xxxx@mac.com
Message-id:
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Original-recipient: rfc822;xxxx@mac.com
Our US Pharmacy is Open to You!
We Now Have Xanax, Valium, and Levitra
From US Pharmacies, not Mexico or Pakistan
- Discreet and Fast Next-Day Shipments
- Prescriptions written by US Doctors
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Do Not Send Future Mailings
the political sense, Cicero, and St. Augustine after him, from the village, and over the fields the larks rose trilling, one the forehead, turned down on the nose, and heals in the new position.
{/spam}
I think China was competing for the X-Prize!
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
If you read both the the official chinese statements and most news items in western media, the impact of the chinese manned space flight boils down to one single objective:
National pride
This also explains, why both Russia and America have cut down their manned space programs - people are not that much interested in being proud of their nation-state, therefore, the taxpayers are not willing to pour money into such costly efforts.
Please remember: The scientific or commercial efficiency of such programs is extremely bad, most of the ressources are wasted for life support and safety. The only motivation for China to send an astronaut into space was to glorify the nation-state and to create a national hero.
This kind of heroism and nationalism is typical for both western and soviet industrial societies in the 1940s to 1960s. Since then, it has started to vanish. Apollo was stopped because public attention declined. China is just repeating the economical and social development that we did in the 1960s. That's why they also start with spaceflight this way.
Their manned space program is an indication that their social and economical development stage is close to ours in the 1960, although they will keep on catching up fast. But while they catch up, they will soon gain insight into the ecomomical aspects of space flight and cut down their manned space program.
Recommended reading: Grumpy old men - the future ain't what it used to be
Why? The holocaust did not get under way until quite a bit later. It only became obvious after the US had already joined the war. In fact the USSR, pre-WWII, would have been a better example because even in the 1930's Stallin had already managed to murder millions. Of course few people outside of the USSR knew about it because too many of the people who should have told the rest of the world (i.e. journalists who witnessed the events) were communist sympathizers.
I don't follow this either. The North Vietnamese carried out mass murders in the just like every other communist regime. When they did capture cities in the south (like Hue) they did the same thing there. The US intervened in Vietnam in part to check those sorts of mass killings.
In South America the US backed regimes that were, in some cases, responsible for killing thousands or perhaps even tens of thousands. That is quite a bit better than the millions who would have been killed by the communists if they had gained control of those countries.
I should also point out that all of the countries where the US got the dictator they wanted are now democracies. Many of the places where they failed to halt the advance of communism are still communist. Chile, for example, is free and prosperous. Cuba is still enslaved, and Castro is still imprisoning and murdering people.
And US space-program was built by Germans, so what's your point?
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
The russians have the Kuznetzov rockets, that
the americans didn't even think were possible
and that they now import from russia.
So maybe the US's lead was not so clear.
I also have the impression that the russians
were better at the science, whereas the americans
had (have) a more trial-and-error approach. But
that might just be an impression...
The really cool Hong Kong cinema is still a lot of Cantonese and those southern regions you spoke of are largely natively Cantonese. The new economic zones of Zhuhai and Shenzhen are both heavily Cantonese and it reaches up to the border of Guangdong prov with Guangxi prov. Guangzhou in Guangdong is a great place to make money as are ZH and SZ. If you want to talk to the people then either language will do fine.
I, for one, welcome our new Chinese masters!
They were also the first to orbit a woman (maybe 1967? The late 60s come to mind)...
1963. Russian Valentina Tereshkova was the first woman in space. Unfortunately it took 19 years until the second, Svetlana Savitskaya started it again.
Don't forget that China has 5 times the USA's population, 10 times Japan's and 16 times that of Germany. It's not at all surprising or threatening that their GDP would be bigger. However, that huge population won't be content with the lack of democratic controls or labour protection laws forever...
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
The PRC is now in a position regarding labour and human rights that is quite similar to the USA 100 to 150 years ago. That is, a strong, technologically advanced empire has been built on the backs of an enormous prolitariate, the exploitation of sub-classes (in the USA's case, blacks, natives, the Irish, poor immigrants) and natural resources with few constraining laws to block profitability. The trouble is, while wealth in the USA was distributed amongst a few super-powerful socio-political special interests, in China it is largely centralized within the institution of the Communist Party - a party that has not been Communist in function for more than twenty years.
The industrial, financial and social reforms that were instituted in the early '80s have transformed China from a land where people were outcast from society because their grandfathers owned capital in the 1940s to a nation of opportunity for anyone with enough smarts, cunning and connections - i.e. no different than any western so-called democracy.
Now you see, the more that China (and India, Vietnam, anyone) exploits the first world nations' rapacious appetite for acquisition of material goods, the more that production will shift out of the first world and into the second world and third world. Gradually, over generations, this builds second world nations into first world superpowers/hegemonies. 3WNs (third world nations), if they have sufficient means, will start supplying the ascendant new hegemonies with cheaper goods. The other 3WNs will become breeding grounds for disease, poverty and what TROTW (the rest of the world) will see as terrorism.
In China, the creation of industrial barons, mostly with connections to The Party, _will_ in fact distribute wealth and power.
Will it solve all the problems of human rights, poverty and everything western 1WN hypocrites complain about concerning China? Of course not. But then again, considering the human rights abuses inside the USA, the non-functioning so-called democratic system, the ownership of the government by industrial barons, the brainwashing of the people by mass big-monied media, the rampant flouting of international law, really, the USA and most 1WNs have no cause to complain other than that they see someone new on the field who's just as capable of playing dirty cricket as the current old school players.
In France it happens that French cosmonauts (when taking part to a Russian mission) or astronauts (with NASA) are simply called "spationauts".
(I think the word is for all Europeans, but I only know its use in French).
McCartney fans pay bus tickets. [...] Lennon fans too, with discretion.
We aren't launching diddley right now, so the universal "Been there, done that -- 40 years ago" attitude of the media is a little disingenious.
Where is the evidence of this being cheap propaganda? Solar panels? A module that can be left in space? Seems like they want to move to a space station quickly. I hope they do. Shoot for the moon colony.
Science Friday the other week noted that it took 66 years to go from Kitty Hawk to the moon. What have we done in the last 34 years that is so great? Can't even take a Concorde flight anymore. I hope the Chinese do set off a second space race.
Congratulations China! You almost duplicated Gordon Cooper's Mercury flight of 1963!
an ill wind that blows no good
I just translated the writing on the side of the Chinese rocket. It said "Use only with parental supervision. Light fuse and get away."
This is all well and good, but we KNOW that this guy will one day cause us interminable problems vieing for control of Planet. He's wiley that Yang.
/.er still playing Sid Meiers AC?
Sorry. Couldn't resist. - Or am I the only
The fact that he's even decked out in blue makes it all the more savory.
kulakovich
*They were also the first to orbit a woman (maybe 1967? The late 60s come to mind), however as this is not a technological achievement I left it out.
This is no great achievement - I orbit women on a regular basis. Unfortunately, that's because they won't let me land on them.
Where's the discussion of how much of Loral Space's technology was used in this mission. Where's the discussion of what changes would be necessary from this mission to an ICBM.
This is, afterall, COMUNIST China. The same philosophy that gave the world such memorable occurrances of bread lines, unvaccinated children, Tiananmen Square, and life-in-jail or death based on religeous beliefs. Such discussion and preparation for what comes next is overdue.
--- "1.21 Jigawatts!" -Doc
Tell it to Tibet.
A space launch should not be news. When it is news it means that it is new and exciting enough for people to care. It didn't make national headlines when I backed my car out of the driveway this morning without killing anyone. I presume that many airplaces have taken off from the local airport today, but not one made the news so I really don't know for sure. I'm guessing that several babies have been born today, but I won't know until/unless I read the stork report inside (not on the cover) of next weeks paper, and then it will only cover births at the nearest hospital. I could go on, but I think you get the point.
Space launchs should not be news, they should be something that someone does for a purpose. Preferably a company. research university, or military (though we all wish for world peace I don't think it is obtainable), not a government. People should be going into space because their job requires it, or they are curious about something best seen/done/tried in space.
My car is based on designs a few hundred thousand years old - good thing those pesky neanderthals didn't patent the wheel!
First to orbit a woman? Cassanova and Don Juan have the beat by cenuries and millenia dude.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
illegal wars - No war is illegal while it is in the first or second person such as 'our war' or 'your war'. It is only the third person, 'their war' that it becomes an illegal one.
"History shows that the only time the US give a crap about what is happening to another country is when there are dollars to be made or protected."
Sure we made a lot of cash saving Kosovo, and putting troops in somalia.
"It's all bad."
When our democracy has purges, we blacklist a couple hundred suspected communists. When communism has purges, millions of people die. Stalin is responsible for the deaths of between 50-80 million russians, his own people. He thought the officer corp was going to try to overthrow him so in the early 30's had 3/4 of them either executed or sent to siberia. By stalin rules, you could and many did get shot or sent to siberia for such simple crimes as picking one grain of wheat off a wheat plant and eating it becuase you where starving. If you think you can compare the mass butchery of the communists, especially Mao and Stalin, to the corrupt politicains of america you either knwo nothing about history or don't knwo what bad really is.
"The military provide a framework for killing a lot of people. The US has the biggest, and most active."
Last time I checked our miltary didn't try to kill civilians. Communism provides a framework for an agressive military that not only can but by definite will be forced to kill a lot of people. When people demonstrate, what do we do? We sent in police in riot gar with rubber bullets. When people demonstrate, what do the chinese do? Send in tanks with very real and deadly bullets and with no fear of using them on their own people. How many conutries did we invade during the cold war? There was the bay of pigs fiasco where we sent in others and didnt back them up. Cn't think of any others... Vietnam was started by north vietnam. We didn't invade vietnam, the north invaded and the south requested our help. We didn't invade north korea initially, they invaded the south and almost wiped it off the map. Afganistan? Invaded by the russians. Hungary and Poland? Invaded by the russians during ww2 and never let go. Who started the berlin crisis? I seem to remember it wa stalin who barricaded the city to starve it out. The cuban missle crisis? I seem to remember it was the russians putting icbms in cuba that it.
For the olympics, china bulldozed a bunch of peoples house and gave them zero compensation. They got a notice one day to leave and the next they came with bulldozers and flattened the place. At leats we pay the people we kick out of places. Activists who were at tianemon (sic?) square are still being held in prisons around china (the ones who haven't been shot) all for speaking out against their leaders. Every other week, china makes a hint of a move against its neighbor taiwan. I don't remembering the chinese sending toops on any peace keeping missions either. Where were they in kosovo? Somalia?
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
All three of these countries have orbited satellites and plan manned space capability. Good to see some part of the world looking toward space as the US and Russia lose interest.
...terrorists don't blow up, and even if we did we are hell bent on keeping them IN XRay.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Between 1433 and 1945, China experienced the utter humiliation and degradation of the opium trade. Imagine for a moment living in a country where 1/4 people are junkies-that is what China was like--and that is a major factor that changed after the communist revolution.
At this point population control laws (the one child rule) has weighted the Chinese population heavily towards males. That means that in China there is by historical standards an enormous incentive for Chinese men to attain social status-the number of men in the bottom rung who can never hope to marry has increased rather markedly.
It is my contention that these two factors combine to make it plausible that China may display behavior that is uncharacteristic of China.
My sincere hope is that the Chinese continue to succeed with their space program-and that this serves to wake up the American people how poorly their own government and corporate elites have acted in facilitating the development of space. A lot of major political and corporate leaders in America deserve to be replaced-and the Chinese space effort just might help make that happen.
This mission isn't quite a "Chinese Sputnik"--but a successful, large Chinese space station just might wake a few folks up--as might some visibly successful chinese space industries.
Where do you live? I will call my congressman.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
It is great news, and quite refreshing, to see someone actually moving *ahead* in aerospace.
The entire aerospace field has been a complete disappointment since the 1970's.
- the biggest, baddest civilian jetliner that still "rules the skies" is the Boeing 747 - from the late 60's
- the giant B52s carpet-bombing the Taliban last year were from the 60's
- We are witnessing the last flights of the Concorde - a monumental aerospace achievement - from the late 60's
- the world's fastest air-breathing jet, the SR71 Blackbird - also from the late 60's - is now completely retired.
- the fastest rocket plane - the X-15 - was retired in the 60's.
- the aging Space Shuttle (NASA's pride and joy) is 1970s technology that didn't fly until the 80's
America in general, and NASA in particular, have done nothing, and gone nowhere in aerospace in the last quarter century. Compare the 747/Concorde/Blackbird/SaturnV of 1969 with the Spitfire and V2 of 1944. Now that was progress!
It's about time someone else has stood up with even the beginnings of a challenge to American dominance and arrogance in space. America deserves it - they've squandered a 25 year lead. I hope China makes it far. I hope they get to the moon. I hope they build New Beijing on the Lunar South Pole Basin. I am sick and tired of listening to the tired old American "who cares? we were there first" line. So what? What did you manage to do there? Run around, pick up stones, and leave? Good job! You couldn't even get back there now if you wanted to! How many of the engineers and scientists that put Armstrong on the moon are retired? How many of them are even still alive?
America's best achievement right now is the International Space Station. Really, it's just another Mir. Nothing new. Barely outside our atmosphere. I mean come on! Maybe this new development will inspire some new ideas and dreams. Maybe it will propel us at least to the moon again. We need a kick in our proverbial backside.
History will look back on the Kennedy-inspired moon shots as a false start. A sputter of something that failed even as it got going. Ok, but now it's time to let the adventure really begin! Let's get out there and DO something!
Member? Tsien was the primary founder of JPL.
I never said they'd wouldn't fall eventually, just that they'd get there long before us.
Hopefully there won't be any horribly major fuckwits to completely mao up their space program. It'd be nice if at least one nation on this planet could pull its head out of its mao and reach for the stars.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
However, all manned launches have been on designs of ours, or at least von Braun who you may or may not count. Mercury used the Redstone and Atlas rockets, Gemini the Titan, Apollo the Saturn, and the Shuttle on the Shuttle's system. All of these are our designs from everything I've hard.
I'm not saying that we don't use Kuznetzov rockets for missiles or whatnot, but nothing we've used to put people into space has been imported. (That's not strictly true; parts of the Shuttle system are imported, but almost all the assembly and most of the parts are domestically done.)
After all, we know that state-owned media is Evil(tm), except when it's the BBC or PBS...
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
They ordered 2 fried rice and potstickers....where are they?!?!?!?!
It is my contention that these two factors combine to make it plausible that China may display behavior that is uncharacteristic of China.
That is a very insightful comment. The real question is the lenghts to which the Mao Dynasty is willing to go to maintain its grip on power.
The economist Reuven Brenner says that democracy and capitalism are closely linked. Once you have private property and free trade, you have resources outside the control of the government and in the control of the market, and the market accustoms its particpants to being able to chose between competing offerings - in goods, in services, in entertainment. A totalitarian government doesn't even have to bother about censoring the press if it controls the only paper mills in the country. A popular press, tabloids and broadsheets, buying their own paper, running their own presses, selling to whoever wants to buy, adopting editorial stances... heady stuff. Once freedom starts to roll, it's nigh on unstoppable without naked force, and even then you can only postpone it. Pretty soon, China's government are going to have to decide, forwards or backwards? History isn't on the side of the Chinese establishment giving up their privileges easily.
The rockets that power China's space programme are virtually indistinguishable from the intercontinental ballistic missiles that are intended to carry its nuclear warheads. China has been modernising and expanding its nuclear force for some time; it has already shown that it can release more than one satellite from a single rocket, giving it a capability to put multiple warheads on a single missile should it choose to do so.
Shocked by America's technological wizardry on display in the first Gulf war, and even more so by the speed of its victory in the second, China is also working feverishly to overcome more conventional handicaps. Fighter aircraft, bombers, ships and submarines bought from Russia are aimed at deterring America from coming to the assistance of Taiwan, which China claims as its own, in any future crisis. So is the plan to deploy a new radar satellite in 2005, able to peek though the clouds to track America's naval movements near the island.
(from economist.com)
"so who do you think is going to be the first to jump at declaring it a hoax?"
I vote for the Iraqi Information Minister...
There are no Chinese in space. Never! --Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf
Comprehending anything halfway is dangerous.
Your story of Ming Dynasty's "great adventure on seafaring vassels" is another proof of half-cooked history wannabe telling the world his own half-cooked semi-historical-fiction.
The Admiral Cheng-Ho's seafaring trips hundreds of years ago had a cetral mission - The emperor sent Admiral Cheng-Ho out to search for, and kill the emperor's political rival - his own brother.
You see, the Ming's emperor overthrew his brother and grabbed the throne for himself. There was a great bloodbath, but after the bloodbath, nobody could find the body of the "former" emperor.
That made everybody worried.
What if the old emperor came back, with his own army and supporters ?
What if the old emperor came back with the support of most of the people ?
The only way out is to look for the old emperor. And story had it that the old emperor had escaped by ship, and was last reported sailing south, destination unknown.
Do you think that the emperor of Ming dynasty was interested in trade, or setting up a WTO type of international bodies to speed up international trade ?
Far from it. All the emperor was thinking about was to strengthen his own grab of the throne, and to do that he had to be sure that his political rival could no longer pose any threat to him. In other words, he had to kill his political rival, inside or outside China.
Admiral Cheng Ho was nothing but an assassin disguise as an ambassador. All his eight seafaring trips, travelling as far as the East cost of Africa, was to search and kill his emperor's political rival.
That's all.
To put anything else on Cheng Ho's trip is just plain silly.
Do you know what prompted Ming dynasty to clam shut China's border later on ?
The failure of Cheng Ho to locate his emperor's political rival had made the ruling clan very nervous, and they were afraid that the political rival, and his offsprings, could come back from overseas and attacked them.
That's why they shut down the border and didn't allow anymore international trade.
You see, history is a very nice thing to learn, but if you wanna learn history, please be sure to know the entire story, not just a part of it.
You can show the year, date, time, place, but if you don't know the entire story, all the things you have shown will all come to naught.
Because your conclusion is based on your partial understanding of the Ming emperor's intention of sending Admiral Cheng Ho for his eight seafaring trip, your conclusion is unfortunately just plain wrong.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The emperor sent Admiral Cheng-Ho out to search for, and kill the emperor's political rival - his own brother.
That's an interesting theory, but I can't find it in any of my books. Do you have a reference?
Does anybody have the same Command & Conquer Generals flashback as i do?
Damn , the red army is entering another era.
Now they will have new weapons, more skills...
--> Insert Funny Sig Here
Apparently he really startled the guys on the ISS. They had dialed out for pizza!
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
Europe was captialist for centuries before democracy took hold--and they largely propspered through the 1800s and early 1900s as a bunch of non-democratic capitalist states
Certainly. I would argue that it is not accidental that every capitalist society eventually shed authoritarian and aristrocratic government forms, because without democracy the social mobility and its resultant upheaval would eventualy have torn the society apart. The ninetheenth century was a period of intense social upheaval, and concentrated efforts to find solutions to that upheaval; however the only sustainable solution that has ever been found is democracy.
To be more specific, long term is longer than twenty five years. I doubt there has ever been a single capitalist country which has replaced a democratic system of government with a non-democratic one, and sustained both the new government form its capitalism for more than twenty five years. There are examples of democracy and capitalism being supplanted long term; and examples of democracy being supplanted short term, but never both in the long term.
What China is attempting to do is to eliminate virtually most economic planning and social welfare guarantees while maintaining strict political control. As I noted this simply has never been done before. Pinochet destroyed Chile's democracy, but eventually had to step down. Poland's democratic institutions were suppressed for a long time, but this was accompanied by state economic planning.
This is not to say that China won't succeed, only that there is no precedent for success. Every successful formula is at one point unprecedented, I suppose, so you can't count them out. However, I'm very skeptical.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Thanks for your intelligent reply however I have some comments on your opinion.
1. The limitations on resources are why we're going to see more terrorism (as well as civil unrest) as the marginalized countries (as segments of society) see what they describe as 'decadence' among those countries who waste more in a month than they see in years. Thing is, if we shared some of what we've got, if we managed our resources better, there would be enough to go around for a lot longer.
Re: other planets, I don't expect to see extra-solar space travel or Star Trekkian demi-utopias. I expect a terran dystopia with an ever increasing gap between a slave-like middle class, an untouchable unemployed class and the industrial baron-princes.
2. Nice assumption, how'd you get to that one? I'm speaking from (admittedly limited) experience. In fact I've been through Hong Kong, Guangxi province and Guangdong province. Through. Not to one city. Through. As in travelling through. Stopping in villages, Seeing stuff, visiting family, buying chickens on the road, killing and plucking them myself, not assinine shutterbug toursim. No, I haven't been in the farthest 'outback' regions where the Party is colonizing Mandarin-speaking ethnics to overwhelm the natives. No, I haven't seen anyone carted off by the police. I have had to bribe my way through some situations with various gov't officials. In other cases I've been helped by genuinely nice and civic minded people. I have seen a lot of the reality of what's driving Chinese industrial and commercial "advancement". And a lot of it amounts to "we know labour is cheap here, lets use our own people and sell the rich Americans cheap crap." And my point is, to make myself clear, China is going to take advantage of its situation, and its own people, to move itself into a greater position of world power. Just like the current 1WNs did a century ago.
I never made the claim everyone in China has equal opportunity. I'm simply stating that its significantly less draconian than a generation ago or a generation before that. See what I said "smarts, cunning and connections". A statement that applies a lot to TROTW anyway.
3. You're making the assumption that I've not taken the limitations of the ecosphere into account. Most of the devastation your describing was supposed to happen by now according to a lot of doomsayers I remember quite well from the '70s. I expect it will be along shortly (perhaps 50 or 100 years).
However, kudos to you, you're correct, I'm not over the age of 60 and do not remember any of the Chinese civil wars. Nor am I unfortunate to have been on site for the various uprisings that were crushed during my lifetime. I am quite familiar with how my wife and her parents remember their horrific expeiences since the 1930s and I do know how to read western and Chinese propaganda. However, that said, I'd be more concerned about American leadership succession right now anyway and try to figure out whether the military, intelligence or some other internal power will be the first declare the current regime illegal, stage a coup or begin arresting people. Oh, that's right, they've been doing it for three years now. Silly me.
4. The UN is a polite lie. It always has been. It's called diplomacy. When the polite lie isn't useful, like any treaty the USA enters into, its discarded like a lit cigarette butt into dry leaves. You're absolutely right about the condition of the UN. The world powers have been destroying lesser powers and governments for decades either through assassination, economic manipulation, instigating coups, supporting gov'ts then pulling out, turning a blind eye to genocide then arming another group. The invasion of Iraq was only the most overt example of this. The USA could do this because, like Dennis Leary's song, "we have the bomb". I don't mean literally nuclear WMDs, but just the figurative Big Stick. The story about WMDs was another polite lie that some idiot thought TROTW would buy. Except some believe in the Big Lie of the U