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An 'Open Letter to Apple'

ndpatel writes "It looks like Apple has a a success in Panther, but it also seems like they've ruffled a few feathers over at Proteron by incorporating a new Windows-esque task switcher that mimics (most of) the functionality of Proteron's LiteSwitch X utility for Jaguar. Proteron has written an "Open Memo" to Apple, but it doesn't seem like Apple really cares. Shades of Karelia, Watson, and Sherlock 3? Is Apple screwing its smaller developers, or just refining their software with relatively obvious improvements?"

159 comments

  1. Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by BusterB · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am using OS 10.1 right now, and pressing Apple-Tab switches applications. A little black arrow moves between apps on the launcher bar, without any extra software installed. We're getting 10.3 soon, so I can compare, but it seems like this has to be a refinement, not a new feature.

    1. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by RevAaron · · Score: 5, Informative

      Cmd-tabbing in general has been around for a long time. OS 9, and in older Mac OSes with add-ons. What is being questioned here isn't Apple's addition of Cmd-tab to switch apps, but that it shows a little bar in the middle of the screen with the icons of the apps you're running, the selected one highlighted. This is what Windows does, rather than select items in the dock (or analog, the taskbar; though, Win-Tab does that). Proteron sells a product that shows the icons in the middle of the screen, just like windows- rather than relying on the Dock.

      But meh. Whether the "bar with icons" is my dock (makes sense) or a new, redundant graphic in the middle of my screen is pretty irrelevant to me.

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    2. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by azav · · Score: 1

      It appears that you have not actually looked at Proteron's liteswitch and application switching in 10.3. If you did, you would see the resemblance.

      The article specifically refers to liteswitch and app switching in 10.3, not 10.1.

      --
      - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
    3. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by CelloJake · · Score: 1

      Does anyone remember the issue with the Extension Manager. If I remember right, that was a third party tool before OS 7 point something when they made it part of the OS, and I believe they actually paid licensing to to that.

      However I do think that the originality of function being integrated was much more defendable.

      -Jacob

    4. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by incandenza · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's actually a difference in functionality, not just appearance. In the new version the order of the applications is preserved. Press TAB n times and you get the nth most recently used application. In previous versions it just cycled through the applications in Dock order after the first one, which was a lot less useful.

    5. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 1

      I believe light switch does some other cool tricks that 10.3 current does.

      ie, While holding 'command' one can mouse over the application switcher and select, quit, and hide applications.

      --
      "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
    6. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by RevAaron · · Score: 1

      While holding 'command' one can mouse over the application switcher and select, quit, and hide applications.

      Huh? Not sure I follow what you meant to say. Do you mean you can do a cmd-mouse over, and you're given a menu- select, quit and hide? What would this have over, say, right-clicking an icon in the dock and picking one of these actions?

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    7. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 1

      Hit command-tab and then release the tab key while still holding command down.

      Now, move your mouse over the application switcher, and try hitting "q" or "h" while your mousing over these apps.

      --
      "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
    8. Re:Wasn't this in OS 10.1? by blkmagic · · Score: 1

      Sounds like what they're complaining about is that Apple now has a mid-screen pallette that shows the applications. Previously, it just had an indicator in the Dock. Of course, LiteSwitch is totally original work because no operating system before had an application switcher that showed the application icons as you switched through them. Uh... hmm, maybe the pot calling the kettle black?

  2. Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by eXtro · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I recall that this was available natively in MacOS 9 but then was dropped for X. So Proteron was more accurately copying a dropped MacOS 9 feature (which may have been copied from Windows) and now Apple's re-including it. I doubt that Apple looked at Proteron but do believe that Apple looked at Microsoft. I don't really see anything to get up in arms about here. Watson v.s. Sherlock was much more obviously a rip off of a 3rd party piece of sofware.

    1. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by TomSawyer · · Score: 1
      I recall that this was available natively in MacOS 9 but then was dropped for X.

      Funny thing is that I recall using Liteswitch on Classic before it was introduced as an OS feature. I don't remember the company "Proteron" being behind it. I think it was just a shareware utility. I don't recall any hubbub when it was rolled into the OS then.

      --
      If you disagree then it must be overrated, redundant or trolling.
    2. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by gabe · · Score: 4, Informative

      To make things a bit clearer, no features were "dropped" when Mac OS X. They simply didn't exist because it's an entirely different OS than Mac OS 9. Apple has come a long way since the public beta, in terms of reimplementing the features we used to have (simple file searching, labels, app switcher, etc.)

      Products like Unsanity's Labels X, Windowshade X, and Xounds and ASM also bring back missing functionality. I gladly paid for those enhancements. Labels were reimplemented in Jaguar though, and I don't recall ever seeing an open memo from the Unsanity folks bitching about it.

      --
      Gabriel Ricard
    3. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by gamgee5273 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It was Proteron, and it was a freeware control panel back at that time. I still have it installed on my 6500/225. :)

    4. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by clifyt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Watson v.s. Sherlock was much more obviously a rip off of a 3rd party piece of sofware."

      From what I understand, the functionality of Watson was something Apple had been developing and had given betas out to select individuals for a few years BEFORE Watson had come out.

      I don't know the entire story behind it except what my friends at Apple have said, but doesn't that sound possible that the third party developer heard about it and decided that either Apple wasn't going to bring it to market (long time to develop something this small) for one reason or another and decided to make the implementation herself.

      Apple IS a little more open with new technologies than they should be and they are a little too picky about how and when these should be introduced. I've heard of a few new features that I thought were supposed to have been in Panther, but for some reason never even made it to the betas, but you can still find plist entries for them if you look (even if they make no sense in their current context).

      I don't know who to believe with any of this...Apple is very good about admitting they like others technologies and paying folks that they do aquire them from -- to the point of buying developers out of their companies and paying both well. Its definately not microsoftian in nature, nor is it the former NIH (Not Invented Here) that use to be prevalent in the company.

      Again, I don't know...just pointing out something I see referenced time and time again with the Watson when I had heard of such features as being possible and probably far before I heard of Watson...

    5. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by tgibbs · · Score: 1
      To make things a bit clearer, no features were "dropped" when Mac OS X. They simply didn't exist because it's an entirely different OS than Mac OS 9.

      This is hair-splitting. To the end user, the "Mac OS" is the operating system that ships with a Macintosh, and the details of its internal architecture are (and ought to be) irrelevant.

    6. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by catwh0re · · Score: 2, Interesting
      i second this.

      As OS X was slowly rebuilt to include previous OS 9 features. It was obvious that this was going to be reintroduced. It would be as unfortunate to suggest that LabelsX a 3rd party application to reintroduce labels to 10.2 systems. Was being -squashed- by apple with 10.3 bringing labels from OS 9.

      Unlike the sherlock/watson affair which was an obvious extension at the time, but in retrospect seems a little contrived. Writing software that you know will be cannon balled is heroic, but don't whine when it does finally happen.

      Since the introduction of 10 there have been a variety of 3rd party app switchers, this particular one happened however to have the apple style. When you emulate the apple style, then you should expect when apple finally program it, it will also look like the apple style.

      A more complicated application would have my sympathy and a distaste for apple, but this is truly nonsense.

    7. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by rixstep · · Score: 1

      but do believe that Apple looked at Microsoft
      This is what worries me. I don't want anything from the Beast on my computers - not even their way of thinking. That's what I got Macs for in the first place.

    8. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by ksheff · · Score: 1

      That sounds about right. Taking a 3rd party utility, merging it into the OS, and giving nothing or very little back to the original developer. Yep. That certainly sounds like MSFT behavior. Too bad Apple decided to follow the pattern.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    9. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by Minuo · · Score: 1

      It may be from "the beast", but it is IMHO much more intuitive to Cmd-Tab through windows following a "true" window order rather than the dock order. If I'm using an app at the end of my dock, and was previusly using one around the middle, it is good to be able to not have to cycle from the Finder all the way down to my desired app.

      --
      --minuo
    10. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by dave1212 · · Score: 1

      It's still here, and they still offer it for free, even if they didn't develop the original code.

      Cha info
      Cha blood ftp

    11. Re:Reintroduced copied Windows feature? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple's been doing this since at least 1990 -- copy a bunch of shareware features and then sell it as an official upgrade for $129.

      All of the following features were originally 3rd party ideas:
      + Menu Bar Clock
      + Heirarchial Apple Menu
      + Cmd Tab
      + Colored Icons
      + Themes
      + "Window Shades"
      + Navigation options in the std file dialog

      Every Mac dev hacking on interface ideas should know this. If it's a good idea, Apple WILL steal it.

  3. And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are you telling me that Apple (and everybody else) aren't allowed to add new features to their products? If everybody had to think twice before adding a new feature because it might step on somebody elses toes then we'd still be using commandline interfaces.

    StarDock made themeable windows way before Microsoft added it to XP. They're still around, they just made sure their product was much versatile and better than the built in theme engine.

    Let's start a petition against Apple because of their iPod. I'm sure it's really harming the sales of the other HD based MP3 players. We'll ask Creative to do an open memo as well.

    1. Re:And? by hype7 · · Score: 1
      Are you telling me that Apple (and everybody else) aren't allowed to add new features to their products? If everybody had to think twice before adding a new feature because it might step on somebody elses toes then we'd still be using commandline interfaces.


      I do feel some sympathy for the guys, but this request is likely to have sprung forth from user requests as opposed to anything else.

      Unless they had it patented (and even if they did... remember the "look and feel" lawsuits) it's all ripe to be plucked off.

      Also; most of the people that would have paid for the utility have done so by now - they're not going to lose that much in $$$.

      -- james
    2. Re:And? by stripes · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Are you telling me that Apple (and everybody else) aren't allowed to add new features to their products?

      Did we read the same letter? I don't recall it telling Apple they shouldn't have added the feature, it in fact was positave about that. All it said was "give us credit! tell people we did it first!"

      If the letter is to be beleved all they want is on the page that lists "150+ new features in panther" where they say "command tab now shows icons across the middle of the screen because we found out people like it that way" to say "just like Proteron's Lite Switch X we put icons across the middle of the display because we thought it looked cool they way they did it", or some such similar drivel.

      I donno if it is the world's best idea, but it seems fair and like it won't stifle innovation in the least (unless of corse this "pixel perfect immatation" was actually totally random luck, and the guys that did it had never seen the other task switcher...which seems a little unlikely)

    3. Re:And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Robs him blind? A change in the functionality of a process in response to user complaints and the big bold headline on their page "Dear Apple you Forgot Some Important Features" is robing them blind?

      Besides, how can this company keep a straight face demanding recognition when they blatently rpped their product off of microsoft?

    4. Re:And? by shotfeel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Should it say "just like Proteron's Lite Switch X...", or "just like Microsoft Windows."?

      I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the reason the Proteron and Apple implementations look so much alike is due more to using the same APIs for drawing windows and text and following Apple's interface guidelines, than any deliberate "copying" on Apple's part.

    5. Re:And? by stripes · · Score: 1
      Should it say "just like Proteron's Lite Switch X...", or "just like Microsoft Windows."?

      Well they gave MS credit for beign the first to do "Fast User Switching" (of corse they improved it enough to bash them a little at the same time, and I don't see 10.3's Cmd-Tab as any better then MS's Alt-Tab...then agian I dont' really find it better then 10.2's Cmd-Tab)...so sure, credit where credit is do due and all.

  4. They're doing what MS don't by Apreche · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apple is just smarter than MS. Windows is simply missing hundreds of obvious features. Tabbed browsing in IE. The ability to put stuff in the system tray. Virtual Desktops. Etc. These are basic functionalities that should be part of the os. Since MS to this day still does not include any of these tons of necessary features in its os, it is possible to make a business writing software that adds them to windows. As a result you get many incompatible implementations of many things.

    Apple is much smarter. They realize that there is a feature that many people want added to the os. They realized the feature is a good thing and a lot of people use it. So they add it in. You can only make money developing applications for OSX. Which is the way it should be. You can't profit by making a piece of software that just adds some missing functionality to the os. This way everyone gets all the features necessary in an implementation that is compatible with the rest of the os. Not like Windows where you have 20 seperate little programs to add in all the missing stuff that should be there in the first place. And not like linux where you add it in yourself.

    This is a plus for OSX in my book. I think I'm going to start saving now for the eventual arrival of the 12" G5 powerbook.

    --
    The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
    1. Re:They're doing what MS don't by andlarry · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not to be nitpicky but I believe in XP you can use vitrual desktops via a Power Toy... quote from the site: "Virtual Desktop Manager... Manage up to four desktops from the Windows taskbar with this Power Toy." Power Toys are unsupported however. If anyone has experience with this util, please lemme know how well it works ( I only use 98Se thru Win4Lin :-) )

    2. Re:They're doing what MS don't by KrazzeeKooter · · Score: 1
      Anything that starts out claiming that one corporation is stupid and another smart should be reason for ending a post. How did this get modded up? Microsoft is hella' not stupid. They, having a monopoly, just don't need to worry about useability. It has been obvious from their refuseal to impliment features like tabs that they don't care for their clients, are out of touch, and it has been further demonstrated clearly by their refuseal to put in a basic pop-up ad blocking feature in IE that they are not even making their software for their users but to server other special interests.

      BTW, being as nice as possible, the whole application switching concept came from Windows, so please don't dredge up some stupid/smart dogma from 1995 here. We're well beyond that. Microsoft is EVIL, not stupid, damit! : P

      --
      I am a monkey. This is slashdot.
    3. Re:They're doing what MS don't by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Nah they are just forcing upgrades by not putting new features in the standalone IE. Longhorn already has popup blocking in IE.

    4. Re:They're doing what MS don't by kasparov · · Score: 1
      I'm not bashing Apple (I really want a 17" powerbook and a G5), just making a correction. Windows has a quick launch bar on the taskbar that you can add applications to by dragging them. This is roughly equivalent to the taskbar in OS X. Also, the Windows XP Power Tools are a free download from Microsoft, and they include the Virtual Desktop Manager app.

      I would love to see tabbed browsing in IE, though. Of course, while I'm wishing, I'd like a job where I don't have to use Windows at all...

      --
      There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
    5. Re:They're doing what MS don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you serious? tell me your post was sarcastic? like whoah, I didn't think people like you existed.

    6. Re:They're doing what MS don't by babbage · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm not bashing Apple (I really want a 17" powerbook and a G5), just making a correction. Windows has a quick launch bar on the taskbar that you can add applications to by dragging them. This is roughly equivalent to the taskbar in OS X. Also, the Windows XP Power Tools are a free download from Microsoft, and they include the Virtual Desktop Manager app.

      The Windows Power Toys [sic -- "toys", not "tools"] kit is really the key thing here. Microsoft has provided it in some form since at least Win98 or Win95, and some of the apps that they've been providing, such as TweakUI, are really fantastic if you want to "fix" the interface on a Windows machine. Why the Power Toys are only available as a separate download instead of bundling with the OS, I have no idea, but they're free, they're "official", and they can be absolutely essential for making Windows just a little bit less insane to use.

      The XP edition of Power Toys includes, as you note, a virtual desktop management tool, but more to the point at hand, it offers an enhanced alt-tab switcher. If Apple ripped off anybody, the Microsoft tool is a more prominent candidate than the Proteon one, by a wide margin.

      The one feature that the Proteon switcher seems to be unique in -- if the XP one supports this, I've forgotten & can't check at the moment -- is that it allows switcher functionality other than just putting the selected app in the foreground: you can hide, quit, minimize, etc. That seems to be a new insight, but a minor one: once you've got the hook to put additional functionality into the switcher, it's not so interesting which particular functionality does or does not make it in.

      I think another precedent was the BeOS switcher ("twitcher"? I forget what they called it at this point...). Like Proteon, they also allowed functionality in the switcher -- in particular, I seem to remember that you could drag icons around in the window that popped up, so that you could control the order in which applications would be called next by repeated alt-tab presses. This isn't as evolved as what Proteon or Panther do, but it demonstrates the basic idea of "switching doesn't just have to be a bridge -- you can do things along the way". While not many consumers used BeOS, it seems to me that a lot of OS designers did -- Microsoft is ripping off ideas from the Be File System in their uberfilesystem project Yukon, while the guy that designed that file system is now an Apple employee. Various aspects of the Aqua & XP interfaces feel to me like echoes of the BeOS, and the new Panther switcher could well be one too.

      So functionally, I'm willing to accept that Apple may have borrrowed the "functionality hooks" idea from Proteon's LiteSwitch, but as for the specifics of the visual implementation, I just don't see it. The Panther implementation's appearance borrows as much from XP and the XP Power Toy switcher (and before that, the switcher dialog that goes back at least as far as Win95 or Win3.1) as any other implementation, and there's only so many ways that this idea could be implemented in OSX that it would be harmonious with similar aspects of the Aqua interface -- in particular, the dim grey overlay icons that you get when you hit eject or the volume control keys.

      I would love to see tabbed browsing in IE, though. Of course, while I'm wishing, I'd like a job where I don't have to use Windows at all...

      I can't help you with the job, but for the other point you're in luck, sort of. Just as Mozilla is a thin XUL layer wrapped around a crunchy Gecko core, Internet Explorer is a thin .EXE program that calls on a crunchy handful of .DLL libraries. Ergo, it should be easy to replace iexplore.exe with an program that offer

    7. Re:They're doing what MS don't by byolinux · · Score: 1

      I have it installed on XP at work, and I can confirm that's actually alright.

      It's not quite as slick as virtual desktops are on XF86, but it does let you view all desktops at once, which is kinda neat.

      It can be quite slow though.

    8. Re:They're doing what MS don't by b1t+r0t · · Score: 1
      The one feature that the Proteon switcher seems to be unique in -- if the XP one supports this, I've forgotten & can't check at the moment -- is that it allows switcher functionality other than just putting the selected app in the foreground: you can hide, quit, minimize, etc.

      But it's functionality that was already in 10.2 in that if you held down the command key while cmd-tabbing, press 'Q' to quit an app. I haven't tried it myself, but apparently the show/hide commands from the application menu work as well.

      --

      --
      "Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
      "Open source is evil." - Microsoft
    9. Re:They're doing what MS don't by mbbac · · Score: 1
      Windows is simply missing hundreds of obvious features. Tabbed browsing in IE. ... These are basic functionalities that should be part of the os.
      Tabbed browsing isn't a basic functionality that should belong to the OS. In fact, it doesn't in Mac OS X. It belongs to Safari only. Expose is the type of functionality that should belong to the OS and thank goodness it does in 10.3.

      I do agree that this is basically Apple moving their app-switching visualization from the Dock to a temporary location in the middle of the screen.
      --

      mbbac

    10. Re:They're doing what MS don't by larry+bagina · · Score: 1
      I have power toys, but I don't care for how the desktop vm works. You have 4 virtual desktops, but windows aren't confined to their desktop. If you open mozilla in desktop 2, switch to desktop 1, then alt-tab to mozilla, mozilla will appear in desktop 1.

      In beos, switching to a window switched to that window's desktop. (the programmer could also set the window to appear in all desktops). You could send a window to a desktop by switching desktops while clicked in the window title bar.

      Also, each BeOS desktop could have its own screen size, refresh rate, and depth.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    11. Re:They're doing what MS don't by llamaluvr · · Score: 1

      In the Windows desktop VM, uncheck "shared desktops" to change that.

      --
      Insightful: 76, Off-Topic: 379, Flamebait: 24, Funny: 152, Interesting: 201, Underrated: 55, Troll: 9, Total: 896
    12. Re:They're doing what MS don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me know what isn't true?

      Mosaic was paid for by the tax payers.
      Mosaic, being public funded, was free to anyone, including microsoft, and netscape.
      Netscape didn't have any special rights to coding web brosers anywhere just cause they were the same people, in part, who were already compensated for mosaic.
      A computer should be able to browse a network, and see the things the user has rights to see.
      The internet is a very large hetrogenious network.
      Information is stored on networks, in a manner not totally unlike any other storage device.
      Part of the job of an OS is to allow users to access and interact with the data they have rights to.
      Things like how information is retrived, and rendered, are part of what the OS is responsible for.

      It's also worth noting, that I think I remember using netscape on xterminals before Winsock was popular and IE was even anything. I know windows is so different from what they were used to. It's tempting to tackle the easy problems first. But had netscape tackled the hard problem first, and well. Then, if they'd managed to leverage that success, stay out in front and develope new markets. They might have owned the internet on windows. That would have been a pretty stiff challenge, but one presumes they didn't lack talent. They were happy with the lead they had, and watched as more talent, if in numbers rather than density, and superior captital ground them into dust. But ultimately, they let it happen. After all, they had their IPO money, they were rich, why continue to bust there balls when they can just kick back?

      See coding, unlike makeing cars or microprocessors, has a very low barrier to enter the market. It's why netscape got anywhere, after all. But they didn't appreciate, that this also applied to rivals, fierce competitors, like Microsoft. They could have been Yahoo, Google, hotmail, Real Networks, Outlook and Exchange all roled into one. Maybe even competeing with Novell, and becoming an ISP. It's hard to say how that route might have taken them. Harder still to imagine a person who could have stewarded a company through the explosive growth they could have had, if they could make better choices. Microsoft might have been beaten in to a technology deficit deep enough that they would be compelled to buy Netscape, and publicly enough that the government would nix the deal. But none of that happened, because they didn't know how good their idea was, until everyone else did too.

      A timeline:
      X-Mosaic (I think the first time I saw it was mid/early '93)
      Trumpet Winsock
      Mosaic 1.0 Final Nov 1993
      Mosaic first good implimentation of tables in late 1994
      Netscape 1.0 Final Dec 1994
      Netscape 1.1 Final Apr. 1995
      IE 1.0 Final Aug. 1995
      Mosaic 2.0 Final Nov. 1995
      IE 2.0 Final Nov. 1995
      Mosaic 2.1 Final Jan. 1996
      Netscape 2.0 Final Mar. 1996
      IE 3.0 Final Aug. 1996
      Netscape 3.0 Final Aug. 1996
      Opera 2.1 Final Dec. 1996
      Mosaic 3.0 Final Jan. 1997 (Mosaic Ends)
      Netscape 4.0 Final Jun. 1997
      IE 4.0 Final Oct. 1997
      Opera 3.0 Final Dec. 1997
      Netscape 4.5 Final Oct. 1998
      Opera 3.5 Final Nov. 1998
      IE 5.0 Final Mar. 1999
      Opera 4.0 Final Jun. 2000
      Netscape 6.0 Final Nov. 2000
      Opera 5.0 Final Dec. 2000

      Notice, that even though they came late, VERY LATE, to the party, Opera managed to carve out quite a niche for themselves.

    13. Re:They're doing what MS don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's definitely got a nice interface, but it's buggy as all hell.

      sometimes when you switch desktops, your ie windows will mysteriously disappear. also, sometimes excel will mysteriously lose it's menubar (extremely annoying since there's no way to get it back).

      ms needs to integrate it into the default distribution and fix all those annoying bugs. it would make xp so much more usable.

    14. Re:They're doing what MS don't by Chester+K · · Score: 1

      Windows is simply missing hundreds of obvious features. Tabbed browsing in IE. The ability to put stuff in the system tray. Virtual Desktops. Etc. These are basic functionalities that should be part of the os.

      One man's features is another man's bloatware. I don't want any of the stuff you listed and I don't want a 3-DVD Windows installation just because they try to include every little feature that someone, somewhere might want. They already do that with Office and they take constant flack for Office being bloatware as a result.

      --

      NO CARRIER
    15. Re:They're doing what MS don't by cpeterso · · Score: 1



      The ability to put stuff in the system tray.

      btw, there is no such thing as the Windows "system tray". The correct term is "notification area". Raymond Chen, a Microsoft dev from the Windows 95 team, describes the original Win95 taskbar design: Why do some people call the taskbar the "tray"? Because they're wrong.

    16. Re:They're doing what MS don't by KrazzeeKooter · · Score: 1
      Nah they are just forcing upgrades by not putting new features in the standalone IE. Longhorn already has popup blocking in IE.

      I know this is off topic and I appologize, but that's an interesting point, very interesting. I can't believe I overlooked it. Obviously MS's biggest competition is Win 95/98/2000. If they don't leave some obvious oppotunities for improvement to encourage upgrades then they're just perpetuating the proplem. Of course by not implimenting these important features now they're offending their own clients (users).

      I love that idea, "microsoft will eat itself." They're so large they collapse back upon themselves like a black whole.

      Of course none of this will ever happen because of mitigating factors. Microsuck WILL find a way to FORCE people to upgrade. Probably in some evil document compatibility / DRM war or licensing mandate. Of course Open Office type projects should marginalize the effectiveness of this evil plague.

      --
      I am a monkey. This is slashdot.
    17. Re:They're doing what MS don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he is serious. Truly a blinded mac zealot.

    18. Re:They're doing what MS don't by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Linux and alternatives have until 2006 to gain a significant share of the desktop market, if linux is sitting at about 25-35% by then, microsoft's new lockin DRM scheme probably won't be effective. If not, the DRM scheme will be implemented in hardware effectively elminating all competition from there on in.

    19. Re:They're doing what MS don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Ah, but if you read further down, you'll see various gems that pretty much show that even Microsoft refers to it as the system tray (or at least some kind of tray)...
      hmm... let me get out my trusty Spy++ and see what I can find...
      One of the windows in the taskbar has class "Shell_TrayWnd"
      The tray^H^H^H^Hnotification area has class "TrayNotifyWnd"
      The clock window has class "TrayClockWClass"
      All holdovers in the name of backward-compatibility with the original "real" tray from 9 years ago? ;)
      Not to mention...
      I have quite a bit of code for shimming the..notification area and feeding the data to our various apps. All of the classes have 'Tray' in the name. Oops.
      And the real kicker:
      http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx ?scid=kb;en-us;310578&FR=1&PA=1&SD=HSC H
      "Windows System Tray Icons"
      http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx? scid=kb; en-us;308674&FR=1&PA=1&SD=HSCH
      "System Tray Does Not Have a Speaker Icon:
      SYMPTOMS
      After you uninstall your sound device in Device Manager, the speaker icon may not re-appear in the system tray (the area on the right side of the taskbar) when the sound device is re-enumerated.
      CAUSE
      This issue can occur if the system tray does not properly refresh. "
      We call it the system tray. Microsoft calls it the system tray. I think, Raymond, that you might just have to entertain the possibility that it's called the system tray.


      This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Just because the inventor wanted to call it shoeshine doesn't mean it was actually going to be CALLED shoeshine. Remember, Microsoft owns his soul, his work, and probably his firstborn child too.
    20. Re:They're doing what MS don't by allblue2 · · Score: 1

      Surely this is another of the benefits for Mac users - there is a genuine 'community' of Macheads who happily write up haxies etc to open hidden OSX features just to contribute to thier peers - Version Tracker is full of them. Apple encourages developers to look in the guts of the OS and this facilitates this user benefit, but it is anathema to Bill and the Redmond world domination boys. Hence OSX just gets better and better even for non-terminal command line junkies like myself. Plus there are plenty of handy (and good) freeware apps put out there in the same spirit of co-operationand fraternity. Why does anyone with a choice still stumble around in the darkness of Microsoft?

  5. When the going gets tough.... by haunebu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can sympathize with Proteron, but LiteSwitch X isn't the most complicated app in town - it's simple as a concept and a common sense improvement over the old dock-based app switcher. It was a matter of time, and time's what they got.

    Proteron made their money for a year and a half, and by the time Apple finally caught up with the functionality they should have moved on. They can't sit around on their thumb and milk a simple idea forever.

    --

    Blue skies, Barthy Burgers, girls...

    1. Re:When the going gets tough.... by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Mod parent up - that's exactly right.

      You can honestly point to Microsoft for the first mainstream implementation of this kind of task-switching, that's for certain. They probably got the idea from somewhere else, in a slightly different form, like many such things.

      The salient points, I think, are:

      - This feature was in Windows before.
      - This feature was in Classic Mac OS before.
      - This feature is blindingly obvious to most half-skilled computer users.
      - Proteron made their money for a good period; LiteSwitch has not improved appreciably.

      The tone of the 'open letter' is that of a whiny brat. Personally I don't sympathize with the guy at all.. and I am a huge advocate, and owner, of shareware. But the idea that Apple just lifeted his groundbreaking concept wholesale is just stupid.

      This is much more cut-and-dried than the Sherlock situation (which frankly I also thought was an obvious idea). Apple cannot just 'stay away' from utility functions like this that turn out to be tremendously popular.

      --
      If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    2. Re:When the going gets tough.... by prichardson · · Score: 1

      I would just like to point out that I think that $15 is waaaay too much for such a simple application. One thing that I've noticed is that a lot of little add on applications like this one are charging a lot for their minuscule amount of functionality. Since it's so easy to program in X I guess a lot of people want to make a little side cash.

      --
      Help I'm a rock.
    3. Re:When the going gets tough.... by coolgeek · · Score: 1
      I agree with the whiny brat paradigm. Funny, their slogan Dear Apple: You forgot some important features worked for them once, and now it won't?

      Sounds to me like their just pissed off that they finally have to be innovative to justify their existence. And what, they didn't know this was coming? Surely they had the Panther seeds.

      --

      cat /dev/null >sig
    4. Re:When the going gets tough.... by coolgeek · · Score: 1
      Totally agreed. I would have tossed him $10 but not $15. Oh well.

      I've said it before and I'll say it again, to get in on Apple's party, you need to bring something nice to put on the table.

      --

      cat /dev/null >sig
  6. why now? by TomSawyer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My first reaction to the memo is to question why it's being brought up now if it is to be taken seriously. Mac Developers were the first to legitimately try out Panther and the copy passed out at WWDC had the feature in question. Did they lobby behind the scenes and only now have decided to bring it to the public after being ignored or is this simply a publicity stunt??

    --
    If you disagree then it must be overrated, redundant or trolling.
    1. Re:why now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      publicity stunt

    2. Re:why now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lobby behind the scenes

    3. Re:why now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only now have

    4. Re:why now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to

    5. Re:why now? by Johnny5ive · · Score: 1

      Now this is a good point. I agree with some of the things others have said:

      - It seems that this is such a simple an obvious feature
      - Go take a look at Windows, this has been there since at least 95
      - Get a copy of 10.0, or even 9 and basic apple+tab switching is there

      Exactly how is LiteSwitchX like Watson? Watson was a pretty new and innovative idea, and it was more than a single handy little utility.

      Really, I think it would be nice for Apple to recognize Proteron, but I don't see how they can justify making a big stink over it.

    6. Re:why now? by blkmagic · · Score: 1

      Apple couldn't acknowledge Proteron even if they wanted to. If they do so without a legal agreement, they are extremely actionable - even without a patent Proteron could sue Apple for stealing the idea. I think people are getting too crazy with the intellectual property claims anyway. C'mon, 1-click ordering, tab switching with a pallette? Why not just patent the use of a power switch to turn on a computer? Sheesh. We as consumers need to put a stop to this by not supporting companies claim intellectual rights to ideas that are NOT ground-breaking and are frequently copied from others' work anyway.

  7. Sounds spurious to me by Frodo2002 · · Score: 2, Informative

    If they were really serious, you would think they might present a few links to real solid evidence from that open letter. You know, comparisons of screens or whatever. Perhaps they are planning on litigation? I doubt it. Plus, as some have already pointed out, window switching has been around in older Apple OS's and was then dropped.

  8. From Proteron to Apple by jadriaen · · Score: 5, Informative
    Read on this site:
    FWIW, the guy who wrote Lite Switch X for Proteron was a student at BYU. He was hired after graduation this past year by Apple. He would never say exactly what he has been working on there, but I'm sure that this was his contribution.
    This puts the entire discussion a bit into perspective, doesn't it? As a side note, wasn't this switcher a Windows-first interface addition? Then, shouldn't credit be given to Microsoft (yesss, my spine shivers as much as yours at this thought). Anyway.
    1. Re:From Proteron to Apple by Noah+Adler · · Score: 2, Funny

      No!!! Credit should never be given to Microsoft! What, are you crazy?

      Not on Slashdot buddy...

    2. Re:From Proteron to Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've recently heard a story that Dan Wood (the man behind Karelia Software and Watson) was also offered a job on the Sherlock team (managing it) and turned it down... I'm not sure what to think about this whole issue. On the one hand, I would like to see more free applications (as a consumer). As a developer, I want Apple to be a good citizen about licensing and giving credit where credit is due. Of course, I think Sherlock was already heading where Watson was, so...

    3. Re:From Proteron to Apple by Johnny5ive · · Score: 1

      First off, where is the proof of this?

      At macosxhints, somone says this and doesn't back it up. I'm not saying it isn't true, but who knows, really?

      Good point on the Windows thing. I said this before, I think it's been in since at least 95.

    4. Re:From Proteron to Apple by Feral+Bueller · · Score: 1
      "Man, I love that man and his reality distortion field... :-)"

      I remember about a year ago watching a movie of a Longhorn prototype that showed something very similar to Fast User Switching.

      I think the original link was from /. actually.

      Maybe Steve reads /.

      --
      - learn to swim.
    5. Re:From Proteron to Apple by blkmagic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So what if the guy who wrote it was hired by Apple? If they didn't use Proteron's source code, it's similar enough to other software products (i.e. Windows functionality), they're well within their legal and moral rights to use it. I'm sorry, but if a small software company is that dependent upon a niche product, they need to seriously re-examine their business plan. As rapidly as software changes, it's financial suicide for a developer to rest on their laurels.

  9. Great marketing ploy by LiteSwitch by mactari · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wonder how many people have run across this story now and fall into the following category:

    1.) Panther is a bit steep right now at $129 and Jaguar is doing just great for now.
    2.) They've never heard of LiteSwitchX until now.
    3.) They've now downloaded LiteSwitchX and are considering shelling out $15 for it.

    I'm not saying the fellow doesn't think his idea's been ripped and burned to the Panther CD, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't think about it being a great marketing ploy for free advertising before he wrote it as well.

    --

    It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
    1. Re:Great marketing ploy by LiteSwitch by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      At $129 Jaguar offers a little more than LiteSwitchX at $15. I don't think anyone will think Panther "is a bit steep right now", but LiteSwitchX is a bargain.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  10. Open Letter to /. by duffbeer703 · · Score: 4, Funny

    To whom it may concern:

    Open letters are both extremely obnoxious and grossly ineffective.

    If you feel the need to write an open letter, please seek professional medical help. If your initials are "ESR", or if you are a party to the SCO lawsuit, please unplug your computer and hang yourself with the cord.

    Thank you,

    --
    Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  11. Near-pixel duplication? by Millennium · · Score: 5, Informative

    Um, no.

    As a former LiteSwitch user, I can say with some confidence that the window is not a "near-pixel" duplication. There are similar concepts in both cases, to be sure. The background of the switcher is transparent with rounded corners, but this can hardly be called a ripoff; the style is consistent with Apple's brightness and volume indicators, which have been a part of OSX since 10.0. Apple can't be blamed for UI consistency on that score.

    The app titles are in Lucida Grande Bold in both LSX and OSX, colored white with a black drop shadow. Again, this is just a matter of UI consistency; Apple uses this very same font on desktops, and has since 10.0. In fact, this appears to be intended as Apple's standard font for text on top of any dark-colored UI element; the white text is controlled by a hidden preference "com.apple.Finder.hasDarkDesktop" (this was true in 10.0 at least).

    The application icons are arranged in a horizontal row in LSX and OSX. Frankly, no other layout would make sense; Apple can hardly be blamed for this one.

    Both LSX and OSX highlight the active app's icon by surrounding it with a differently-colored box. Aside from there being no other sensible way to highlight the icon in such an environment, it is worth noting that the boxes look different; LSX uses a dark box solid white border, while OSX uses a light box with no border but rounded corners, again more consistent with the style. Note that Proteron's implementation is closer to the look of the Windows application switcher, which predates both LSX and OSX.

    Both OSX and LSX print the title of the currently selected application. LSX prints it centered at the bottom of the window, while OSX prints it under the application's icon. It's arguable which of these is better UI -points can be made both ways- but again, OSX is more consistent with Aqua, LSX is more consistent with Windows.

    Panther's application switcher is not a duplication of LSX's functionality. For one thing, LSX actually goes significantly beyond what Panther's switcher does; if it's a copy, then it is a poor one except in terms of aesthetics. For another, although they look similar -more a testament to LSX's attempts to remain consistent with Aqua than Apple's attempts to rip them off- they are not the same. Some of the differences had to have taken some real effort to write, above and beyond any sort of cut/paste job.

    Finally, I suppose, we should take a quick look at the history of LSX. LSX began life as a part of GoMac, which was nothing more or less than a Start Menu implementation for Mac OS 8. Not a bad implementation, either; they even added in support for control strip modules to replace Windows' system tray modules. However, this app copied the Win9X Start menu almost down to the pixel; they used Apple's system font and a Mac OS logo in place of the Windows logo, but other than this the resemblance was more than just uncanny. Later on, Proteron would develop an application switcher as part of the shareware GoMac, which they later duplicated in the freeware LiteSwitch as a kind of teaser for GoMac.

    Either way, this kind of application switcher is not a new concept, and Proteron should know that better than anyone. If Apple is to credit the original developers, then they should credit the original developers. I'm sure Microsoft ripped the concept off from somewhere, but whoever it was, it wasn't Proteron. Apple and Proteron have both ripped this one off.

    The comparison to Karelia's Watson is, frankly, borderline disgusting. At least Watson could legitimately claim to have come up with a new concept and interface; Proteron -at least as far as common features between LSX and OSX goes- just Aquafied a longtime feature of Windows. LSX did other things, but these don't seem to have been duplicated. I don't agree with everything Karelia has said about the Watson situation either, but they had a much better claim than Proteron does.

    1. Re:Near-pixel duplication? by Nexum · · Score: 3, Informative

      the style is consistent with Apple's brightness and volume indicators, which have been a part of OSX since 10.0

      The brightness and volume indicators were introduced in 10.1, other than that... well said.

      --

      This sig has been deprecated.
    2. Re:Near-pixel duplication? by pudge · · Score: 1

      At least Proteron's program actually LOOKS LIKE Apple's version. I don't think Sherlock and Watson even look the same, except for the common UI elements that Mac OS X apps all share. I am a user of both Watson and LiteSwitch X and recommend both (though I guess not so much the latter for Panther users), but I think most of this baseless complaining on both parts. I'd be bitter too, but being bitter doesn't make you roght.

    3. Re:Near-pixel duplication? by pudge · · Score: 1

      Er, "right."

  12. The pot calling the kettle black by KrazzeeKooter · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Is this suppose to be a joke? Because I'm laughing my butt off.

    If you look on Proteron's site here stated in really large type is "Dear Apple: You forgot some important features" and showing in particular the "switch and hide others" feature. This is pretty funny unto itself, but you see the entire design of the Proteron site is completely ripped off from Apple!

    Was this just a brilliant last minute stroke of inspiration, or planned publicity stunt? Either way it's well earned and well deserved. Bless you Proteron and I hope everyone buys a copy of their MaxMenu's.

    So, "switch and hide others"? I'd love to see this as part of Apple's Switch Advertising Campaign? I'd love to make Windows disappear!

    --
    I am a monkey. This is slashdot.
    1. Re:The pot calling the kettle black by CptTripps · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm thinking they just want some publicity for this one. That was the first thing I noticed, so I closed the window. BESIDES the fact that AppSwitcher did this in OS 8.5, And win95 did it too, I don;t see the innovation that they dropped on us...

      --


      My .sig can beat up your honor student.
    2. Re:The pot calling the kettle black by milenko11 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I like how the lite switch icon is the system preferences icon without the apple logo.

  13. Know what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm with you 99%.

  14. Re:Sounds like Microsoft's 'Stacker' problem. by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Insightful
    IIRC, the Stacker issue started out as a licensing issue, not a "They put something we sell into the OS!".

    A better comparison might be with Netscape vs IE-in-Windows, except that a web browser isn't really an operating system function (that is, most users see it as an application), whereas task switching is very much what the OS is supposed to be providing interfaces for.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  15. You'd think they'd point out by edbarrett · · Score: 2, Informative

    that SuperClock got rolled into system 7.1 or something, but Apple purchased the rights to it.

    1. Re:You'd think they'd point out by wzinc · · Score: 1

      They also gave credit in 7.5-7.6 (I think) to the creator of SuperClock. That's the first thing think of when I think of Apple absorbing 3rd party apps. I always thought they paid for the rights to all the obvious apps they encorporated into their OS either with money or just recognition. I would be very supprised to find they gave no credit to the makers of Watson. I remember when Apple had this big promo on their software page saying how wonderful Watson is; that's how I found it in the first place.

      Let's see:

      Helium -> hierarchal Apple menu
      Kaleidoscope -> OS 8.6-9 themes
      Watson -> Sherlock 3
      Lite Switch -> OS 10.3
      Any others?

      We can't forget the biggest one! :-)
      Longhorn -> Mac OS 0.1a
  16. aftermarkets are always vulnerable. by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Its not like apple just stole the technology (ala windows and stacker). Nor is it a case of some sort of standard being embraced and extended.

    It is a lot like a automotive products after market seller finding a something they sell is going to be part of next years stadard in the car: Halogen lights, electonic ignition, automatic oilers, turbo chargers. It your market is the aftermarket you are always going to be vulnerable but that does not mean the major mareter is a bully.

    Where it gets illegal is when a major marketer uses their leverage to enter a new market. GM cars requiring GM tires and GM gas. The distinctions are fine sometimes since it requires the definition of what is a distict market. In this case there is no fine distinction. LiteSwitch was only useful on macs and it was not a commodity market.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  17. Re:Sounds like Microsoft's 'Stacker' problem. by drsmithy · · Score: 4, Informative
    IIRC, the Stacker issue started out as a licensing issue, not a "They put something we sell into the OS!".

    Stac vs Microsoft was a patent case. First, Stac sued Microsoft claiming Doublespace infringed on some of the compression patents Stac held. Microsoft were found to have unintentionally infringed on Stac's patents.

    Then Microsoft sued back because Stac reverse-engineered some undocumented MS-DOS 6.x trickery that allowed the drivers for compressed drives to be loaded automagically and into HMA. Stac were found to have "misappropriated trade secrets".

    Basically, it's a textbook example of why Software Patents Are Bad.

    A better comparison might be with Netscape vs IE-in-Windows, except that a web browser isn't really an operating system function (that is, most users see it as an application) [...]

    This might have been true before the mid 90s. Today a web browser is basically considered core functionality - and even by the late 90s when Win98 came out it was expected by most.

    "Everyone" was bundling browser apps with their OS in the 95 - 98 timeframe. Plonking a browser component into the OS, as Microsoft eventually did with Win98, was a pretty logical step to take once they realised MSN had bombed and the WWW was the future. Even without Netscape's foolish grandstanding and goading they would have done it.

  18. Don't worry... by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 4, Funny
    Apple is just smarter than MS. Windows is simply missing hundreds of obvious features.

    Dude, Microsoft leads the field in innovation. Why, pop-up blocking will be available built into Windows in a mere 2.5 years.

    :)

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    1. Re:Don't worry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha. And you're also the guy that thinks they should be sued if they do put popup blocking in.

      Next.

    2. Re:Don't worry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha. And you're also the guy that secretly dreams every night of being Bill's bitch.

    3. Re:Don't worry... by generic-man · · Score: 1

      Oh, nice. You saw the preview pictures of Longhorn too.

      Internet Explorer 7 will add pop-up blocking. I can't wait!

      --
      For more information, click here.
  19. Not a bad night's work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's say he gets 3000 hits from this memo (and the number's probably greater) and 1% of those people think differently than you, ie, Jaguar is working great, but I do find myself going crazy flipping between apps to the point I'll shell out. That's 30*15= $450. Not a bad afternoon's work.

    1. Re:Not a bad night's work by addaon · · Score: 1

      And let's say the moon really IS made of green cheese...

      --

      I've had this sig for three days.
  20. The front page by ScriptGuru · · Score: 3, Funny
    LiteSwitch X's front page says:
    Dear Apple:
    You forgot some important features.

    Seems like adding those features just responds to that message.
    --
    Yet another signature that refers to itself. The irony and humor is dead.
    1. Re:The front page by tuxedobob · · Score: 1

      Damn. Wish I had mod points.

      Yeah, kinda funny how proteron wants it both ways, hmm?

      Oh and I see they still have "Mpegger" for sale. Yeah, just in case anyone's still using System 7. Sheesh.

  21. Serves the Sharecropper right. by _iris · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They should have read Don't be a Sharecropper.

  22. Not certain what the big deal is by TomorrowPlusX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple builds in lightweight versions of a lot of things, which people would be screaming about if they didn't.

    For example:
    DiscBurner
    The Command-tab thing
    Safari
    TextEdit
    DiscUtility

    And so on. For each of these, there are commercial variations which are, should you need the features, better. You can always buy Toast, LightSwitch, OmniWeb, BBEdit, DiscWarrior and so on.

    Is this really a big deal? LightSwitch is *better* than the built-in. I paid for it. Toast is better in some ways than DiscBurner -- I paid for it.

    As far as I can tell, Apple's doing us a service. Basic versions of useful ustilities *come* with the system. Should you decide you need better, *pay* for something better from a third party.

    Nobody screams when an OS comes with a text editor. We just buy a batter one, or download a good freeware.

    Move along now, nothing to see here.

    --

    lorem ipsum, dolor sit amet
    1. Re:Not certain what the big deal is by hrbrmstr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pecisely. MacSlash already beat this topic to death, but I have no sympathy for a company who has/had such a short-sided business model.

      OS X has much better built-in media burning than an alot of other OSes (i.e. Windows), but I too purchased Toast since I wanted more (and the latest version kicks some serious butt!). No one is going to pay money for an OS without getting some decent built-in features.

      All this ruckus over Cmd-Tab. The previous functionality (moving to apps in the doc) did pretty much the same thing, but the 10.3 feature makes it prettier and more akin (unfortunatley) to something Windows has had forever.

      I was going to hold off installing 10.3 (the 10.2.8 update burned me a bit), but I might just go get it tonight and install it, startup a bunch of apps and use the new Cmd-Tab just to create more angst for LiteSwitchX.

      --
      Mind the gap...
  23. Action GoMac? by Balthisar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't remember how fast Command-Tab switching goes back in classic Mac OS -- at least Mac OS 9, and maybe the intermediate releases of Mac OS 8 (maybe 8.5?). Sure, no on-screen feedback like now, but the applications switched. The visual feedback is something I definitely liked from Windows, so I'd always installed and used Action Go! Mac (http://www.poweronsoftware.com/products/actionGom ac/), which did exactly what I wanted it to. I'd never, ever heard of Proteron in those days. So, maybe PowerOn Software ought to be griping to Proteron that they got ripped off.

    I did, though, hear of Proteron in the Mac OS X 10.1 or so days. And I used their free version of LiteSwitch. In fact, I used it until Friday when I installed Panther. Of course 10.2 made Cmd-Tab not work, trying to force you to upgrade to the paid version of LiteSwitch. But a nice, little, free Haxie took care of that -- free versions kept on chugging along.

    I prefer to have the built in version. I wish no ill will toward Proteron, but I do hope they grow up.

    --
    --Jim (me)
  24. need a new icon by ubiquitin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Is it just me or is that Aqua-style X slashdot story icon looking outdated? What's needed is a metallic-style Panther X icon. Does Slashdot have a graphics-submission procedure? The XIcons site has a few that should work.

    --
    http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
  25. We, Proteron, shall be "pot"... by superdan2k · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe Proteron should drop the folks at Microsoft an email and thank them for the inspiration for LiteSwitch X in the first place.

    Not that I'm pro-Microsoft, or anti-Proteron. I used LiteSwitch back in my OS 9 days, but Fried Christ on a Stick, don't demand credit for something that you copied from another OS in the first place.

    --
    blog |
  26. Wah. by base3 · · Score: 1

    Crippleware author whines because integration of obvious feature into a new version of an OS dried up the market for a $15 single purpose utility. NEXT!

    --
    One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
  27. Missing one blatent Apple ripoff in that list... by Cycline3 · · Score: 1

    One of the most blatent ripoffs that has been overlooked is Cocoatech's Path Finder. It's a slick app and I wonder why Apple didn't do a better job of copying it. Aside from speed - Path Finder just seems better than the new 10.3 Finder.

  28. that's right... by pb · · Score: 1

    They can't sit around on their thumb and milk a simple idea forever.

    Yep, that's what patents, copyrights, trademarks, contracts, licensing agreements, EULAs, and lawsuits are for. Sorry, Proteron, too slow!
    --
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
  29. It's simply business by pmz · · Score: 1


    In the business world, one fundamental risk is that as soon as the public is aware of your product, one test of the worth of your efforts is if people still come to you or end up adopting the idea for themselves. If the idea is simple and easily re-implemented elsewhere, then basing a business model on it is nearly suicidal (i.e., it is a natural commodity!). At this point, if you can't compete on price, then, well, your only profit is experience.

    Using software patents to defend such a business model is still insufficient. In software, it is the quality of implementation coupled with price that differentiates competitors. Of course, Microsoft excused themselves of this reality long ago, but, thankfully, we're going to be giving them a rude wake-up RSN!

  30. Let OS X be usable without 3rd party apps by shmert · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been bitching in feedback to Apple about their poor app-switching interface since the initial beta of OS X, and am thrilled to see they are finally addressing the problem. The old dock-switcher was terrible and unfriendly, and my least-favorite thing about using OS X. As soon as LiteSwitch X was released I bought a copy, and have been happily wearing down my apple-tab keys ever since.

    I think the pattern here with Watson and then LiteSwitch X has some interesting parallels to Linux vs. Unix, except w.r.t. which party has more clout. Rewriting costly unix apps workalikes and charging less for them in Linux is seen as perfectly acceptable, because Linux is the underdog. Apple is the overdog, and is catching flak for imitating some other company's well-designed ideas and charging less for it (by bundling it in with the OS).

    That said, I'll continue to use LiteSwitch X (of course, I've already paid for it) because it has some nice improvements over the OS X version. Same with Watson, I much prefer it over Sherlock. It seems that the apple versions are the "lite" version of the commercial apps. If you want more, the 3rd-party developer is there to provide you with more powerful, feature-laden versions of the apps. But buying OS X shouldn't necessitate the purchase of several 3rd party apps to be as usable as possible.

    --
    You drank my drink, you drunk!
    1. Re:Let OS X be usable without 3rd party apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      p.s. when they mimic the (incredibly useful) LaunchBar though, things will start to smell a little fishy around here. Just watch and see, it's bound to happen. Way too good of an idea to go unexploited...

    2. Re:Let OS X be usable without 3rd party apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a nice little utility, but way overpriced. I'm working on a similar idea that will be free and open source. It's called "DiveBar" and the beta should be listed on freshmeat and versiontracker by year end.

  31. To quote Jean-Louis: Get over it. by RetiredMidn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Jean-Louis Gassee addressed Apple developers at their World Wide Developers Conference several years ago (after he had left Apple, IIRC), and he touched on this topic then.

    To summarize his points, the platform is made richer by creative people writing system enhancements, but don't be surprised if Apple (or any other system vendor) provides those enhancements in a future version of the OS; just move on to another good idea.

  32. If it isn't patented or copyrighted, tough luck by andy666 · · Score: 1

    If this is just a matter of hurt feelings, then too bad. Apple has no obligation to credit people for things that are public domain.

  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  35. Eh? by Matty_ · · Score: 1

    I am using Panther at home and it resembles a feature which has been in Windows since Windows 95 was released? So what if it looks like a third-party product -- it wasn't their idea from the beginning anyway.

  36. LiteSwitch X is spyware by mbbac · · Score: 1

    I'd be a little more concerned about Apple not helping out the little guy if the little guy weren't embedding spyware into their application. That's the widespread rumor -- and the reason I decided not to register LiteSwitch X and to drag it to my trash.

    --

    mbbac

    1. Re:LiteSwitch X is spyware by jerde · · Score: 1

      embedding spyware into their application. That's the widespread rumor

      Um... would you care to substantiate that "rumor"? Repeating a rumor doesn't make it true.

      - Peter

      --
      INsigNIFICANT
    2. Re:LiteSwitch X is spyware by Demolition · · Score: 1

      I believe the rumour refers to MaxMenus using a hidden AppleScript or somesuch to send personal details (such as your e-mail address) back to Proteron. It's reproted to be an anti-piracy measure. Personally, I don't know if this is true (because I don't own/use MaxMenus or have it on my machines), but there are references to the hidden code on various Mac news and rumour sites.

      To test if this is actually happening or not, perhaps someone who has just installed MaxMenus could use Little Snitch to see if there's anything outgoing from their machine to Proteron.

      D.

    3. Re:LiteSwitch X is spyware by mbbac · · Score: 1

      No, I wouldn't. However, when I asked, Proteron didn't feel like unsubstantiating it either.

      --

      mbbac

  37. Semi OT - Cool thing to do with the task-switcher by DebianDog · · Score: 1

    Use command-tab to pull up the floating switcher...tab (or arrow either way) over to the app you want and while still holding down the command key, release the tab;
    Hit the "H" key to hide the selected app
    or the "Q" key to quit it and still keep the palette open (as long as the command key is held).

  38. Why Apple Shouldn't Give Credit by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, not morally. Legally.

    If Apple says publicly at the launch of Mac OS X 10.3, "We've got this excellent new switcher behavior, coopted entirely from the hard work of Proteron's LiteSwitchX utility," That might make Proteron feel good. It might even be a fair gesture. However... if Proteron then took Apple to court, they'd have a great big leg to stand on when they said Apple ripped them off.

    I don't know if that kind of rip off is illegal or not, but Apple would have handed them at least a part of the court case. So they can't make that little gesture.

    Too bad. Whatever. Move on, whiny Proteron dude.

    --

    There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  39. Hi MOM by sulli · · Score: 1
    This feature was in Windows 3.1. Then it was supplied to Mac users by Microsoft as part of Microsoft Office Manager (remember that? Damn useful utility, worked great for OS 7-8 and then didn't work well for at least my last versions of OS 9).

    To suggest that these guys came up with something unique makes no sense at all. (Unless you're so anti-Microsoft that you never used Office for Mac, which not too many Mac fans were in the OS 7-8-9 days.)

    --

    sulli
    RTFJ.
  40. Nice classic whining by tyrione · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't wait until all the unreleased MECCA (Openstep 5 codenamed project we @ NeXT never released) and all its innovative UI paradigms slowly re-emerge into OS X, then we'll see even more whining.

    Folks, very few "features" that are being added by third parties are new in concept. Operating Systems companies like Microsoft and Apple have years ahead of the third parties in testing and design theory allowing them to pick and choose when the right time to introduce such features or not presents itself.

    Compound this on the purchase of companies which innovation back into companies like Microsoft and Apple and you'll begin to see how is it that they have such deep technological pools that seem to just appear when they need them to appear.

    Third Parties that seize upon basic alternative action paradigms to sell shareware should rethink what they need to be in order to be viewed as "visionary."

    It's not as if the industry is done with innovation, just done with copying.

    I can't wait to read about UNIX utilities now being wrapped in intelligent GUIs as being grounds for a lawsuit.

  41. This is a crying baby. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I realize that the people with Watsom and Protoron worked hard to make these products.

    lesson 1. Get a friggin patent. If you don't then shut your mouth up. You actually deserve it if you don't. If your patent was denied, then shut up. If you did get a patent....call 1800-lawyer and go to court.

    Otherwise....you are talking smack.

    There are laws to protect you if you work within the system called capitalism. If you fail to play by the rules, you get walked on.

    But one final note, I understand your disapointment. Maybe you can get a high paying job at Apple and show them how you can help them build better functionality into their OS

  42. Lacks a grip on reality... by Trillan · · Score: 1

    The funniest part of this is a comment over on Proteon's web site:

    Proteron today also released a public memo to Apple Computer regarding Apple's assimilation of third party software into the Mac OS. Visit the LiteSwitch X Home Page for more information.

    Porteon is claming even more than "inspired by." What a load of bunk! Samuel Caughron seems to have a slender grip on reality at best.

  43. Re:Missing one blatent Apple ripoff in that list.. by maccw · · Score: 0

    Wow! is that similar to the new finder! Nearly identical.

    --
    My karma is getting better everyday.
  44. Re:Pot, Kettle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, next they'll be calling it "INNOVATION!" just like MS too.

  45. Re:Missing one blatent Apple ripoff in that list.. by Zhe+Mappel · · Score: 1
    Yep. Cocoatech might want to start writing its open letter.

    I sympathize with these developers for their interest in writing little (and not so little) utility apps just as in the good old shareware days.

    But it does seem increasingly anachronistic. Who, after paying $129/year for OS X, wants to go and plop $15 here and there for tiny enhancements?

    The economics of a modern consumer os argues against this practice. When you're paying regularly for an os upgrade, you come to expect Apple will be on top of what's developed independently and - yes - do some Borg-like assimilation for you.

  46. Re:Microsoft invented switcher by spitzak · · Score: 1

    Absolutely, the pop-up window displaying an icon for all the apps is a MicroSoft invention.

    Using Alt+Tab to change windows existed earlier, but in all versions I ever saw it just changed between opened windows, you had to use the mouse to get at iconized windows. So I think even the idea of having a keystroke that selects a possibly iconized window is a MicroSoft invention, this is vastly more important than just a pop-up window of large icons (personally I don't understand why they did not copy the taskbar appearance with text as well).

  47. Windows by zpok · · Score: 1

    First time I saw this feature (yes, on Windows) I was frankly blown away, even if it was such a little thing. It was obvious, easy and it wasn't on the Mac.

    It was nice to make an app that mimicked this behaviour for the mac, but if one company can share concepts, then why not Apple?

    And credits? The fact that Apple hired the actual programmer of the feature isn't credit enough?

    If this open letter is a marketing stunt, I'd do a slight rewrite, a bit more upbeat, a bit less beaten up. Would still get the same attention, but people would think better about the company.

    --
    I think, therefore I am...I think.
    1. Re:Windows by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      Compare the open letter to this, from Karelia's Watson FAQ:

      Q. What is the relationship between Watson and the new Sherlock 3?

      A. When Watson -- openly inspired by Sherlock for the concept of bypassing the Web browser -- was first released in 2001, it was envisioned as Sherlock's "companion" application, focusing on Web "services" rather than being a "search" tool like Sherlock.

      Sherlock 3, part of Apple's new 10.2 "Jaguar" release, has now changed its focus to Web services. It bears a great resemblance to Watson -- almost its entire capability (image search, news, stocks, movies, phone listings, eBay auctions, reference, and translation) is found in Watson's tool set, and many individual tools behave remarkably like their Watson counterparts.

      Many users have contacted Karelia, congratulating us on Apple "buying out" Watson. However, Karelia Software was not involved in any aspect of Sherlock 3, other than serving as ... shall we say ... inspiration. While Apple recently recognized Watson as 2002's "Most Innovative Mac OS X Product" -- and we appreciate the recognition -- the company didn't hesitate to make use of Watson's specific innovations for its next OS release, without any concessions to Karelia.

      But we're not that upset anymore. Really. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Unfortunately for Apple, Sherlock 3 is not quite up to par with Watson in terms of speed or capability, so we're not that worried. With the addition of the new Google searching Tool for Watson -- much more useful than the web-searching feature that is part of Sherlock 3 -- we are confident that Watson will continue to be the market leader in Web services, in spite of Sherlock 3.

      Technical readers may be interested in a comparison of Watson's and Sherlock's plug-in architecture on this page.

      Dan Wood, Watson's creator, has a much more legitimate beef, but you don't see him whinning. No, he sucks it up and gets back to business. He improves Watson, so there will be no doubt it is better than Sherlock and worth paying for.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  48. Mausenscheiss by JeffTL · · Score: 1

    The feature's been in Windows since 3.1 or even earlier, so Microsoft has prior art EVEN IF PROTERON HAD EVEN TRIED TO PATENT IT, which they haven't. Evidently in OS9, though I am too lazy to check. That is to say, you copy, you get copied back.

  49. proteron should whine by lanky+nibbs · · Score: 1

    Apple _could_ have included the admittedly simple app switching mechanism of LiteSwitch when they first showed us OS X, but they didn't. They decided to pile everything onto the dock. What comedy.

    Trying to include the following two UI functions in the dock was a screw-up by Apple from the start.
    1. (primary) App-switching
    2. (primary) "Easy-access app & file repository"

    This is a fact, proven by Apple's _replacements_ for both implementations: (1: the new Panther app-swx, and 2: the new Panther (finder) sidebar.)

    Apple did the right thing by fixing this crap.

    Does Proteron have a legal case? Of course not! But they're not claiming they do.

    Apple "made the call" to go with a UI "app & file selection" model that was flawed. They didn't fix it in 10.1, and they didn't fix it in Jag. I see LiteSwitch as filling a need like Now(Action)Menus filled in OS 8.

    Apple purposefully _didn't_ include this switching mechanism for a couple years, so when they finally do admit that their intended dock model was _broken_ (UI-wise), and mimic 80% of the function of some little software company's fix of Apple's problem......

    I'm just saying I can see where maybe Proteron deserves a prop or two.

    (I did buy liteswitch x, but I'm not affiliated with Proteron)

    nibbs

    --
    "Have you heard of some type of thing?" -- anon
  50. Not true. by amarodeeps · · Score: 1

    I'm using 10.2 right now and when I alt-tab through my open apps, I can alt-tab back and forth between the two I have been most recently using. I don't know why you think it only cycles through the apps in the dock without any intelligence; it does exhibit the behavior you describe in 10.2, from what I can tell.

    1. Re:Not true. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, but he's pointing out that in 10.2 that only works for the most recently used app. In 10.3 the first cmd-tab will select the most recently used one, the second will select the second-most-recently-used, etc. etc. Whereas in 10.2 the second cmd-tab will select the app that's below the most recently used app in the dock, and further cmd-tabs will continue on down the dock--not in order of use, just in the order they're in the dock.

      HTH

    2. Re:Not true. by incandenza · · Score: 1

      In both 10.2 and 10.3, the first TAB gives you the most recently used. In 10.2, the second TAB gives you the next one after the most recently used in Dock order. In 10.3, the second TAB gives you the second most recently used. Try switching among 3 applications in 10.2. It's not easy.

      That is the whole reason that the extra UI is needed. You want to preserve that ordering, but there's no way to indicate it in the Dock.

  51. Re:Does this even warrant discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linux based Photoshop, you say? Link me to Adobe's web page on it, please.

    Oh, and trying to get a MIDI device working under Linux is slightly less entertaining then face-painting using steaming fresh animal turds. I like Linux for a lot of things... but professional audio use is not one of them.

  52. Re:Does this even warrant discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just you wait for GIMP. It's gonna be the best!

  53. Re:Microsoft invented switcher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not sure if you were joking, but.. ahem. You obviously never saw Andy Herzfeld's Switcher, on the Mac, about 1985. It also showed a list of apps by icon and allowed you to tab (and click) among them. The animation it performed was not totally unlike Panther's fast user switching either (though with a simple scroll rather than rotating cube, given the hardware of the day). MS never invented anything, ever.

  54. Daring Fireball by theMacDude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Please read John Gruber's take on this on his Daring Fireball weblog.

    --
    -jjh o|
  55. Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Death to obvious little shareware apps. CodeTek, you're next.

  56. Reason for software patents by Hackie_Chan · · Score: 1

    Is this the reason why Software Patents are good? This can be prevented if the creator of that tool/utlility created an original idea and patented it.

    --

    What's so bad about being lazy? What if there was a war and nobody showed up?
  57. watson by hytmal · · Score: 1

    actually, im pretty sure that apple _bought_ watson, not just stol all its features for the new sherlock. fyi...

    -- hytmal

    1. Re:watson by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Read the Watson FAQ.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  58. I don't understand by ryan_fung · · Score: 1

    Given:
    (1) "Software patents are evil"

    (1) implies "People should be able to freely add any features to software and not get blamed or sued"

    Am I missing something?

  59. Re:Microsoft invented switcher by spitzak · · Score: 1

    The innovation that I give Microsoft credit for is to realize that when switching in an environment where an arbitrary subset of windows could be iconized, you could use the same action to switch to any window, rather than treating the open and iconized windows as two different sets. All X and XView environments I ever saw before that would use completely different actions to switch to an already-open window versus and iconized one. This still remains in CDE, where Alt+Tab will only switch between opened windows.

    On the Mac in 1985, with Switcher, all programs other than the current one were effectively iconized (ie all windows other than the current app were invisible). And unless this program also let you switch between two or more windows in the same application using the same actions (which I doubt), it does not fall under this innovation, as it only switched between iconized windows.

  60. no rumor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's no rumor...it sends reg info back and tattles on folks that try to crack it...tsk tsk...if an app is going to phone home, it should warn someone, since it seems no diff than winXP in this regard

  61. Features Dropped in X by customjake · · Score: 1

    To me, this (Panther) is the first version of mac OS X to rival the OS9 operating system. To be honest, MacOS lost some features in the transition to OSX. While a lot of these features i don't use (such as labels) i know a lot of long time mac users who cannot live without them. Now we can all enjoy these features again, as they are back. Anytime apple changes the look/feel/functionality of their OS, people throw a fit. My opinion is that Panther is by far the best OS that mac has ever had. I have already adjusted to the new finder and the rest of the changes. I'm reccomending that everyone with a recent system upgrade.

  62. Re:Any others? by EggZact · · Score: 1

    Well, I'm pretty sure they got permission for this one:

    Flurry screensaver -> Flurry screensaver built into Mac OS X 10.2 but as a "light" version.

    http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/icons_screen savers/flurry.html

    --
    "True programmers are artists and someday we'll respect programming as self expression and personal effort." - fateswarm
  63. if ms and apple switched places by ziggyboy · · Score: 0

    in a parallel world when apple and microsoft switched places, apple would be the hog microsoft is in our reality.

  64. Sometimes Thor is just a car mechanic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes. You're forgetting that once something becomes popular and bound to the demands of a great many, it is necessarily less responsive to many of those demands, and by definition no longer the underdog.

    The core of much of Slashdot's collective conceit is that it's based more in actual "knowledge" (or should I say presumed knowledge?) than say other attributes (looks, wealth, whatever). With many of the devotees convinced they are the holder of the secret knowledge, evangelist for the hidden truth, and as such should be listened too for their dogma is the way to salvation. So you have clusters of over-simplifications of, occasionaly, fantastically complex ideas that attract their followers, as early peoples once worshiped many Gods. And like the Gods of early peoples, they don't always agree. But by and large, that is the of little concern to the realm of men, though it sometimes spills over. :)

  65. Office 6 by Trillan · · Score: 1

    It's also what a Microsoft system extension bundled with Mac Office 6. What was that, 7.6 era?

  66. Look at Extensis by StrawberryOnSlashdot · · Score: 1

    Please, I used to work at Extensis (http://www.extensis.com) where we made kick-ass plug-ins and xtensions for Adobe Photoshop and Quark. The idea was we'd offer users the easy way to do multi-step things (like cool drop shadows in Photoshop), better ways (PhotoType allowed greater ease of use for placing text), and those why-didn't-my-$500 app-include-this!? things as well. We never expected a pat on the back or that these features wouldn't be rolled into the next version. We just aimed to keep thinking of new ideas.