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The Dirt On Mars, In Words And Pictures
An anonymous reader writes "The Spirit rover's first soil analysis reveals some puzzling features about Gusev crater. The region seems to contain the greenish silicate mineral, olivine, which usually is considered water-reactive and thus volcanic in origin. For olivine to be found in the soil may point to rock formation during a drier period in martian history, even with strong evidence for sampling in an ancient lakebed. A second puzzle is why the soil seems so crusty. After the rover arm pressed soil down, the top layer of dust hardly moved, a finding that suggests something may be binding the dust like some type of salt or thin cement." For even more and better Mars pictures, read on below.
mlyle writes "I've spent a few hours hacking together some software to deal with the Mars Exploration Rover imagery at JPL. The software puts together a webpage and RDF feed of new raw imagery as it is posted to the JPL site, along with technical information decoded about how the picture was taken. It also produces stereo anaglyphs and color images that NASA has not seen fit to convert and make publically available. Be sure to also check out the ultra high resolution image of the lander as viewed from Spirit."
There's also been an update for the Maestro visualisation and planning thingy. I'm downloading it right now - let's get some more BitTorrent seeds up and running! :)
Any particular reason NASA went with a B&W CCD for this one? I seem to recall earlier Mars missions being in full color -- then again, it may have been this 'pseudocolor' stuff as well.
levine
There are some puzzles and there are surprises
One unexpected finding was the Moessbauer spectrometer's detection of a mineral called olivine, which does not survive weathering well
It doesn't survive weathering well in Earth like conditions. Mars, on the other hand, has extreme and totally different climate conditions and it should not be a surprise that minerals exhibit different properties.
Free XBox, PS2
It's been waiting how long for us to visit? Come on think aboutit, it has been just hanging around for a few hundred years, that we have been looking at it, and they expect it to be soft and fresh?!?!??
I'm told you are what you eat, does that mean I can be you by tomorrow with some A1?
I guess it's good NASA didn't seem a spotty teenager inside the probe to send the images.
"That's not Mars, it's Paris Hilton"
100 / 8 = 12.5 Megs
Given the current information we estimate that we will be able to travel to pluto in 3 years time.
...
In today's fast-paced modern world, a mere 3 years get you:
- to Pluto
- a copy of Duke Nukem Forever
or perhaps I should await my return from Pluto to get DNF
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
They touched down in a Walmart parking lot!
That's 100 Mega _bits_. So only 12.5 megabytes right? Big deal for a transmission from Mars but peanuts for your DSL connection.
It would be interesting to see if mining on Mars would be a feasible (and cost-effective) venture. With the apparent iron content of the soil (hence the rust-red color), it may be a good source of mineral content for mining operations. The hard (and expensive) part would be the transport of mined material back to Earth. Could the cost be overcome by the benefits?
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
I mean, they're the ones who are always talking about the windstorms that plague the planet, yes?
And for how long have these windstorms been occurring? Millions and millions of years?
So it seems reasonable to conclude that the dust/soil on the planet is going to be fairly homogenous by now.
They talk about the rock abrasion tool and the various spectrometers and what not, but the tool I'd like to hear about is the shovel. The dried lakebeds on Mars are no doubt little different than the dried lakebeds on Earth. To get to anything really interesting, you need to dig.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Interesting, as the marks of the airbags are clearly visible on all pics. Or am I missing the point of a rover-arm having less force than a bouncing-lander-in-an-airbag?
"Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
Sheesh. Mars sucks. Could it be any more dull? It's worse than Morecombe on a wet Sunday. I bet it won't be too long before the rover finds a German beach-towel, though.
What I really want to see is a rover running up the Face on Mars. Who cares about water? I want to see pyramids and faces.
--- I'm Green Hornet's sidekick not Inspector Clouseau's!
...which usually is considered water-reactive and thus volcanic in origin.
If it's water-reactive why does it mean it's volcanic? I don't know anything about minerals but that doesn't sound logical to me.
Developers: We can use your help.
...but what about this picture ?
Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.
The Dirt On Mars, In Words And Pictures
:D
We got the pictures telling the chocking truth in tomorrows issue of Planets Revealed! for only 2.99$
Was just looking at a news stand outside my office selling tabloid "newspapers" when I surfed to slashdot. At that time the title had a different meaning to me.
Yum! I remember when my Mom used to make me a big glass of Olivine when I got home from school. Just add it into a glass warm milk, and yum! Wholesome and delicious, rich in essential vitamins and minerals!
Just imagine all that Olivine on Mars! Certainly it'd be worthwhile to travel to Mars, given an unbounded supply of ready-made food already on the surface. This, my friends, could cure world hunger!
In fact, now that they've found that Mars has a lot of Olivine, I'd start speculating that the dust is being bound together by Tang.
I find it interesting all the rocks in the pictures look small enough for any human to pick up and throw. I don't see any large outcropping of boulders and such. Why isn't the variety of the rock sized greater?
-Oy Vey
I've just seen a TV documentary about the rovers. One thing they had was an animation showing the differences between the first rover and the new ones. It was the old rover coming off the lander and then growing, parts being added etc., afterwards documenting how the thing has to fold to fit into the lander again, all on some blue grid surface. Does anyone know if this animation can be seen on the net somewhere?
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
he cuts'n'pastes the given data and throws in a few "this is interesting", "well done", "I hope to see more" comments.
his name is also a slightly mispelled version of another person.
OK, there's microscope, spectrometers, cameras on the rover.
Do they have a brush or scraper? Or is the rock grinder the only physical tool?
-- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
Now I've got me an account, I'm going to start keeping track of these weird and frequent occasions where the posts are coming in fairly randomly, then two people post the same thing within seconds:
Ydco co
he cuts'n'pastes the given data and throws in a few "this is interesting", "well done", "I hope to see more" comments.
his name is also a slightly mispelled version of another person.
he cuts'n'pastes the given data and throws in a few "this is interesting", "well done", "I hope to see more" comments.
his name is also a slightly mispelled version of another person.
It has all the latest Mars Rover info as well, and a direct link to JPL for the latest and greatest pictures and info. www.marsquestonline.org
Go hit it. It's worth a look around.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
he cuts'n'pastes the given data and throws in a few "this is interesting", "well done", "I hope to see more" comments.
his name is also a slightly mispelled version of another person.
Of course the show is 50 minutes or so, and the animation you want is in the middle. I taped it when it was broadcast, and I do like the scene you are describing.
Hope that helps.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
The Water's been found - it's most likely in the form of ice, and it's all over the planet. The question Spirit is trying to answer is was there once a lot of LIQUID water on Mars, and if so how long ago, and for how long a duration? Gusev Crater was almost certainly a lake once.
Helium balloons want to be free.
he cuts'n'pastes the given data and throws in a few "this is interesting", "well done", "I hope to see more" comments.
his name is also a slightly mispelled version of another person.
A consequence of space exploration being government run is the fact that missions will be continually over funded and unambitious, as successive presidents and politicians look at NASA and the entirety of space as merely being an extremely expensive photo opportunity. It took 25 years from the invention of modern rockets to the moon landings, and in nearly 40 after that, we've done little more than send up continuous, well publicised but ultimately futile shuttle missions. Much as it pains me to say it, the future of space lies in private hands who have the ambition to(pardon the pun) reach for the stars
" I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. " --Dr. Jerry Pournelle
I read at one of the links that "Olivine is also found in many iron-nickel meteorites. Not just as small grains but as significantly sized crystals sometimes occupying over 50% of the meteorites volume."
I do not know anything about minerals really, but if the lander is exploring a crater, couldn't this come from the meteorite that created the crater in the first place?
True ravers don't need drugs
he cuts'n'pastes the given data and throws in a few "this is interesting", "well done", "I hope to see more" comments.
his name is also a slightly mispelled version of another person.
Lewis and Clark speculated about the value of minerals in the Rockies. Didn't spend their lives mining it, though, as without the Missouri and the Columbia hooking up, they'd have had no way to transport their raw materials out. Mining and transportation -- railways in the case of the rockies -- go hand in hand. We're not remotely near ready to lay tracks to Mars.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Kinda sad you have to tell folks your post is meant to be funny.
Since their are some people out there who strongly believe you are correct.
The Viking landers performed soil tests that were supposed to check for living organisms. Interestingly, they were inconclusive - the reactions observed to the agar solution could have either been the result of microorganisms, or unusual soil chemistry. Either Spirit and Opportunity will tell us which it is, or we'll just have to send some folks up there to check things out.
You just gave me this vision of olive-flavored Ovaltine! Just add milk!
Yuck!
-l
Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
The Astronomy Picture of the Day showed a good quality close up of the "face" here: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031214.html
APOD is great.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
Cheers,
Roger
Do you have any better hostages?
The only way we'll have all the answers is to send up a team with some (live) geologists and full kit... But, that's probably 30-50 years away realistically.
Eggzactly.
One of the less ridiculous "proofs" for God's existence is that, "the world exists. Because there cannot be infinite causes, an ultimate originator must exist and that originator is God."
The "no infinite causes" ('nic') line is from Aristotle.
The problem is that NIC is only true if you take Aristotle's word for it. Now, he was assuredly a smart dude, but he was not infallible. His philosophy denies the existence of atomic particles (so if you agree with Aristotle 100%, you either have a fantastic take on all the science of the last 100 years, or you're provably wrong about something.)
The second problem is the assumption that, "if there is an ultimate originator, then it is God."
This is also simply an article of faith, which does not per se make it wrong, merely unjustified.
I can say with equal emphasis and personal faith that, "Since there cannot be an ultimate originator, there must be infinite causes." Further, I could say: "Therefore, those infinite causes are God", or equally, "Therefore, belief in God as an ultimate originator is fallacious."
No one can disprove that without assuming something on faith, either in a trusted authority (philosophical, religious, or otherwise) because no one actually has evidence either way.
Faith is a natural and healthy part of the human experience. Self righteousness and moral absolutism are comfy illusions. The difference between faith and zealotry is that zealots can't or won't change their beliefs under any cirumstances. Even when their own intelligence officers tell them that Iraq abandonded it's WMD programs in 1991.
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
You take the minerals you're interested in, make them into giant balls and toss them towards the Earth. Some of the stuff will survive the re-entry.
;)
Note: Aim for Siberia or something. And don't be too greedy packing the giant balls, you don't want to overdo it, trust me
---- Take the Space Quiz!
the top layer of dust hardly moved, a finding that suggests something may be binding the dust like some type of salt or thin cement.
If there is a thin hard layer on top of the dirt, protecting it from the wind and trapping heat, it might be pretty warm under there, right? Maybe warm enough to support life?
WOW! You just dicovered why Mars has it's orange-y color. Or is this just more of the NASA conspiracy? Re-color the images to orange, claim that Mars is the original source for Tang, and that the moon landings actually were a hoax, they really went to Mars!
"Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
Too bad people can't appreciate jokes like this. Though the joke is over now, I expect to see appear a 'rniguel de icaza' or 'CrndrTaco' soon. ;-)
"Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
Is Earth the sole planet with life?
To what end do we use the answer to the question?
Yes, there may be other life -- then what? Can we go see it? Very unlikely. If we find a fossil, will we now look harder?
No, we haven't found any proof for life elsewhere -- then what? Do we stop looking?
While I'm fascinated by the rovers on Mars and finding out what's there, is that really the best way to spend $400 million (not just dollars but resources)? How about spending $400 million on a developing a bug whose sole purpose in life is to go find Osama and bite him?
With olivine and all the green cheese on the moon, we can solve world hunger.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
There is actually a green sand beach on the big island of Hawaii.
It is little known, and difficult to get to, but a long drive down
an unpaved road, and two or so mile hike will get you to it.
I once met an minerologist gathering samples there.
He told me the beach was green because of a large olivine vein
which was eroded over the years by the ocean waves.
pics: http://www.techfreakz.org/blacksand/
Don't NASA geeks watch movies?
Don't go pokin at it! Your going to piss it off and next thing we'll be getting invaded by mars!
Seriously though, it's cool they were finally able to get a rover on the planet that hasn't been eaten by the little green men yet.
Just once, I'd like it if someone called me "Sir".
Without adding, "You're creating a scene."
I was just pondering the idea of mining on Mars. Olivine is also known as a gemstone, Peridot (August birthstone). While Mars mining may seem like decades away, would if the next rock the Spirit turned over was composed of glittering compressed carbon or a silicon based diamond-like material (geologists out there, does silicon compress into diamond like stuff?). How long do you think it would take then? If the other players in the diamond market found a spot that DeBoer's doesn't already control, I'm sure there would be mining equipment heading there before th e next decade ends. Wouldn't people pay a premium for diamonds from Mars?
"I took a piece of that star over there and brought it back to remind you of our shining love.."
But seriously, we have no clue what resources lurk beneath the red planet's surface. Diamonds are probably a poor example (again, geologists - carbon on Mars?). But imagine, another planet for us to plunder!! At least it doesn't seem like anyone else is living there - can we plunder that one and leave this one alone for awhile?
Olivine breaks down in the presence of water. If NASA chose a location because it looked like an ancient lakebed, but it turns out there is olivine in the middle of it, then it is not an ancient lakebed.
The rocks at the bottom predate anything like water that would have been on top of it. If there was water, the olivine would be gone.
If the rocks didn't predate the lakebed, we (or at least NASA) should be able to see where these igneous rocks came from (IE there should be a volcano).
The climate of mars will alter the rate of weathering of minerals, but since the rate of weathering is influenced by where the minerals were formed, olivine would still go first.
Igneous minerals formed under conditions similar to the surface of the earth tend to resist weathering better than minerals formed under higher temperatures and pressures. Olivine is a VERY high temperature and high pressure mineral. Quartz is a low temperature and pressure mineral.
Beaches on earth tend to be made of quartz sand.
Finally, getting to the point, it is not concievable that the surface conditions on mars are closer to the temperature and pressure of the mantle of the earth than the surface of the earth.
So much for significant martian water.
I live on an active volcano which, in some erruptions, produces large quantities of olivine (peridot) crystals. We can see the crystals not only on dry land, walking on various older (tens to hundreds of years) flows... but more interesting is Green Sand Beach in South Point - Green Sand is an old cone that sits at sealevel, partially within the water. The sands are a stunning and sparkling olive green and one can find crystals from pin-head sized up to small stones (every now and then someone finds larger gem-quality pieces).
Since it's well known that olivine can appear within certain types of volcano flows - i'm confused to the water reactive portion - we certainly find olivine in/near/around water (I do consider the pacific ocean to be water). Furthermore, portions of this island receive upwards to 200 inches of rain a year - and there's plenty of olivine.
Can someone explain to me why the presence of olivine somehow precludes water? It certainly doesn't here in Hawaii (though perhaps on a much larger time scale, it does?)
The instructions don't work! (mdk 9.2)
So I take you are not a big fan of creativism ?
With your results?
To quote a Compaq Ad campaign - Gemstones? Who knew!
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
Anyone that isn't a religious nut can come to the conclusion pretty easily that life in some form is out there in all probability.
Probability less than 1.00 is not proof. If proof was found that life exists or had existed on Mars in the past, then it changes the way we look at the Universe. If life could develop on two planets in the same solar system, what does that say for the possibility and commonality of life elsewhere?
Perhaps Mars is boring. It's the same argument people said about the lunar missions a generation ago. It only became boring because we let it.
Take a step back and stand in awe of the fact that we have the ability to even do what we are doing. It isn't boring. It wasn't in 1969 and it isn't now. It should be considered anything but boring. Maybe if we hadn't gotten "bored" in 1972, it wouldn't be a robot up there analyzing samples up there and sending back imagery used preprogrammed commands on a 20 minute delay. It would be a man or woman instead, with us hearing their voice, the excitement and thrill at walking on another world and making that thrill of discovery, curiousity and exploration infectious to entire planet and to another generation. But we didn't. We should have.
Have a sense of romance and excitement. I wish I could send commands to the rover along the lines of "Look that way! What's over there?!?" or "Drive over there and look behind that rock.".
There are some things that should transcend day-to-day living and the focus on our daily lives and exist simply for the sake of doing it, cost and politics aside. Space exploration should be one of those things.
There is nothing, at least in the Judeo-Christian bible, that indicated that we are the only creatures on the Universe, and that God created the Universe for us. In fact, the Bible mentions that God created the Universe first, and humans long after. The exact passage escapes me at the moment, but I remember somewhere in the new testament Jesus mentioning that he had to attend to "other flocks."
And what is with this insistence from the atheist/agnostic camp that evolution and religion are mutually exclusive? Could it ever be possible that both the story of creation and the theory of evolution share some validity (divine design through evolution)?
In fact, as an official position, the Vatican accepts the theory of evolution as valid. Think of it this way: If God created everything, wouldn't that include evolution and its "ultimate" result (humans)?
God seems about the only answer that doesn't cause your head to go into meltdown.
Read the papers. Read some history. 'God' is the answer that most surely causes your brain to go into meltdown. Yet people seem to think think the argument that goes, roughly:
What is the origin of the Universe?
I don't know
Then why not call that 'God.'
- somehow makes sense. As if 'God' were neutral term, like 'quark', without history or established meaning. But people have been slaughtering each other by the million over the meaning of the term since the invention of monotheism.
I don't know. You don't know. The Pope doesn't know. Stephen Hawking doesn't know. Nobody knows. Get used to it. In this case, the only truth is an admission of ignorance and, as always, the truth will set you free.
Science fiction for grown-ups...
The moon doesn't have enough gravity to walk on...
Contrary to the photographic and video evidence of Apollo astronauts walking on the surface of the moon, and indeed, driving lunar buggies around on the surface?
I don't know how someone can say something like that with a straight face.
http://www.lyle.org/mars/ is already belly up.
Nice thought, though.
In other news, I note that Mars was conspicuously absent from Bush Baby's State of the Disunion speech. Perhaps because he has no intention of actually funding that particular pointless stunt, perhaps because by the time anyone is ready to really think about, the USA will be a miltary dictatorship/theocracy and everything will be secret anyway...
Science fiction for grown-ups...
I think you are confusing scales. In the short term finding Osama MAY be more important than finding life, or traces of, somewhere else in the cosmos. But in the long term Osama doesn't matter in the least, neither does 9/11, America, You, I, or much else. Finding life would answer a COSMIC question, killing Osama with some little Geneva convention violating bug would answer a wholly secular, and temporal question.
Finding traces of life on Mars would further the work of Galaleo[sp], Darwin, Einstein, and all the other great minds who pushed the boundries of knowledge, who led to BIGGER questions. Finding Osama would make George Bush look like he already did not waste BILLIONS (not just millions) of dollars, and MIGHT increase Americas sense of security by a minute modicum.
Finding life would challenge theology, and put some serious stress on the creationists, which in my opinion is a good thing. It also would expand the Earthly feilds of science, answering some time-old questions. Finding Osama and killing him would only answer the question "Where is Osama?", which is of little importance to the world-as-a-whole, and the greater reach of intellectual history streaching before us.
Finding life would be comforting to us, now and generations hence. We would for once know that we are not alone, and that the odds of alien life, albeit simple, are greater than some nay-sayers say. Finding Osama, well, would be comforting to the US, at least until the next "evil doer" comes along to rain on our parade.
You must look at the bigger picture. Killing Osama is a sign of hatred, dark emotions, revenge, war. Finding life, a sign of hope, progress (in a good way), knowledge, and a greater respect for life itself. What is wrong with embracing both goals, vengence and death, and hope and respect?
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
Wouldn't it be strange to find out that the rover has landed on an ancient pair of giant Martian underwear?
"Is organized religion and its understanding of Creation, a sham?"
It's Freedom Hilton, you terrorist traitor.
Viking 1 and 2 kind of ruled that out if I'm not mistaken.
Anyone that isn't a religious nut can come to the conclusion pretty easily that life in some form is out there in all probability.
Interesting choice of epithets, but I think the facts are the direct opposite of your claim. The probability of the evolution of a DNA chain is something like one in 10^600 (see here). If you're using *probability* to back up your belief in the evolution of life on our planet or other planets, you're apparently dedicated to evolution in a way that any "religious nut" could scarcely match.
Don't forget the vast deposits of marzipan on Io.
On second thought, forget it. No one likes that stuff.
Of course, one of Saturn's moons is a giant Black and White cookie, so that might make up for it.
Here's a quick list of all the factors I can think of in planning a shipment of generic material:
Anyone care to add?
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
They purposefully chose this location to minimize the number of larger boulders. This makes movement of the Rover much easier and probably helped make the landing safer.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
To what end do we use the answer to the question?
Well, inasmuch as the desire to know is part of our (humans) nature, knowing is an end in itself. That is, knowledge doesn't have to be useful as a means to an end to be worth pursuing. That's just the way we are. Knowledge often *is* useful, of course, but it doesn't have to be.
While I'm fascinated by the rovers on Mars and finding out what's there, is that really the best way to spend $400 million (not just dollars but resources)?
It's important to remember that when NASA spends USD 400M to learn about Mars, it's not as if they're dumping that money into a big pit, and then expecting to be given the information in exchange. They're paying contractors, vendors, and hosts of other private individuals and businesses for their time and efforts. The money is injected directly into the economy, which is a Good Thing. People often talk (though the parent didn't) about how the money spent on projects like this could go toward feeding the hungry or some other (admittedly) noble thing. Well, you might argue that NASA is (indirectly) feeding the hungry by giving millions of dollars of contract work to companies.
Belloc
I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
The results were inconclusive - they got readings right away that indicated life, but they went away faster than expected and it was ruled it was not life...
But the martian meteorite that came back later did proove this, after some long bouts of arguing.
Read "Mars on Earth" for more detailed info.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Don't forget the vast deposits of marzipan on Io.
Not to mention evidence of Strong Sad and The Cheat living under the ice on Europa...
"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
What challenge would it present to theology?
Monotheist religion says; God created Earth, Mars, and any life found in either place.
If anything, life on Mars would be a mighty challenge to the belief that life evolved on Earth by pure chance, since the conditions for such an event are believed to be unlikely enough that seeing it happen in two planets within the same star system would be a mind-boggling coincedence, to the point that many would insist that life in our solar system must have been seeded by Some Divine Somebody-Or-Other.
As for your short-term/long-term dogma... Short term stuff impacts the lives of actual people right now. Long term may or may not impact the lives of people who may or may not exist in the future. During the Dark Ages, a lot of what the Greeks and Romans knew was lost (we will never know exactly what the Greek musical scales sounded like, for example.) 500 years from now, everything we have currently learned could just as easilly be lost after the fall of our current civilization.
We've enjoyed the benifits of a lot of long-term stuff the Germans did in WWII (neither the Russian nor US space programs would have gotten as far were it not for the German V2 rocket), but that doesn't mean that the "short term" impact of killing Hitler wasn't one of the most important events of the 20th Century.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Perhapse the olivine is from whatever made that crator?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" - George Orwell
How many Switzerlands is that?
Here are some good links (from the site mentioned in the sig below) to read about the Pancam, including its various filters:
- NASA Info on Pancam
- Athena Pancam Info
- Athena Pancam Technical Briefing
- Planetary Society Pancam Info
--For news, status, updates, scientific info, images, video, and more, check out:
(AXCH) 2004 Mars Exploration Rovers - News, Status, Technical Info, History.
No, if life is more universal it does not presuppose "a devine somebody-or-other", it would just mean that life is much more common than we thought. Evolution of life is not Earth specific in any way shape or form, actually it is quite easily generalized that life can be formed anywhere where conditions are permissable. Several prevalent theories actually do dictate an interstellar origin of life, by a nondevine seeding.
Actually, we owe most all of our science and technology to the long-term effects of those wonderous greeks. Science as we know is a direct result of Aristotle, most of the Christian dogma is a direct result of Aristotle as well. And early christian theology is a heavy borrower from Plato. Sure, even if in the dark-ages much of the actual writings of the Greeks were lost, the actual influence lived on.
Killing Osama, as the original post recomended, is a ultimatly futile gesture anyways, long or short term, due to Americas worstening reputation. The only fix for our political problem, and those who would blow us up, is a LONG-TERM policy fix. Everything could be lost by History, the world could end tomorrow, so by your reasoning there is no point in even short term fixes, since the short-term may ultimatly be too long.
I'm not thinking of long-term in a technological sence, I'm thinking of it in a spiritual and philosophical sence. Things that shape human thought are ultimatly more important than things. Sure the V2 opened the door for many things intellectual (most unrealized), it proves to be a TOOL, and not something that changed people themselves.
And, BTW, we didn't kill Hitler, he managed to do that himself.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
The dried out floodbed looking feature is running downhill to Gusev, so regardless of how much water the meteor may have contained, it did not flow in the other direction.
Surprising new image from the mars rover
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" - George Orwell
See?
It depends on your persective and what values you hold. To many, things which shape human lives are more important that things which shape human thought. Philosophy and spirituality are regarded by many of the same "geeks" you were lauding earlier to be empty exercises of narcissism. Given a choice between curing cancer and finding out whether there are other worlds, many would chose to prevent the deaths of people over advancing our understanding, and it's neither your place or mine to say that they are right or wrong.
Taking out Osama, along with his henchmen, hinders the organization of terror and silences an effective propagandist of hatred. In short, it could ultimately mean saving thousands of human lives. It's worth doing. IMHO, exploration of space is also worth doing, but I suspect that what we will find out there is not ultimate enlightenment to launch the dawn of a New Age, but just rocks and stuff.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
(to be read in Wallace & Grommit fashion)
why dont they send a rover/probe that could travel with the dust storms? have it deploy a parachute on a telescoping rod and let the wind take it where it will...it would have to be very durable to say the least. isn' that how baby spiders get around? I think they deploy a string of silk and let the wind carry them away....
I bet that tastes like Uranus.
The probability of the evolution of a DNA chain is something like one in 10^600 (see here).
The earliest life-forms probably had very simple DNA, if any. Over time it likely grew longer. Thus using today's lifeforms as a model is a poor leap. Nobody knows the simplest possible DNA nor all the possible combinations that work. Math (as we know it) cannot tell you what lives and what doesn't.
Table-ized A.I.
I'm sorry, but that article is total bullshit.
The math is wrong. In a string of 10 dna bases there are only 4^10 possible combinations, and because of the way base pairs meet each other half of these are exactly the same.
(4^10)/2=524288
The article asumes that there is only one correct string of dna, and only that one correct string will work to allow life. this is false, but given their example the "magic" sequence would be one of only this small handfull.
If you have ever looked at dna you will see that it is mostly random with areas of repetition, not ordered in the way they put forth. there are huge swaths of DNA, that do nothing, in our genome.
The article asumes that there is only one correct string of dna, and only that one correct string will work to allow life. this is false.
Cells are not ordered. they are a complete mess of shit that somehow works. true there are regions within cells that do different jobs, but for the most part cells vary widely and could certainly not be considered "ordered" in the way that idea is presented.
also, the view of "information" they present is false. A string of digits in order contains 1 piece of information. a string of seemingly random numbers can mean an infinity of things depending on how you decipher it. there is a reason we call it genetic "code".
If you truly believe what that article says, read this website and kindly do not reproduce. It is as close as I have found to memetic birth control, and a weak-minded person might believe it's arguments leaving others to evolve without them.
-John Fenley
Earth gave the exact same results, when they ran the experiments here. So since they couldn't prove that life existed on a planet known to have life either, they called it inconclusive.
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
All of these worlds are yours, except OrIo and Europa. Attempt no further landings there.
I never said to kill Osama. I said design a bug to bite him. Rein in that brain of yours.
I think you missed the point. What do we do next? What answer are we looking for? What do we do with it? Do we build something? Looking elsewhere to bolster the evolution arguement is pretty weak considering there is SO MUCH LIFE RIGHT HERE.
So what if there is life out there. What are you going to do? Go out there in a space pod so your great great great great great great great great grandson can eat it?
Evidence that NASA is altering the true color pictures of Mars
Investigation shows that there are several indications that the NASA is tampering with the colors, and changes them from an Earth-like environment into a red inhospitable environment. But it seems that the young scientists at Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) are not convenient with this.
help out.
Would you settle for being able to fly your own private spaceship back and forth over the face on mars? If so, go here: www.marsquestonline.org. 3D pilotable Mars flyovers of many famous sites.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
Hitler did suicide, he wasnt killed by any "person"...
:)
just wanted to say that
The reference I have is "Chains of Magnetite Crystals in the Meteorite ALH84001: Evidence of Biological Origin" published 2001 in "Proceedings of the National Acadamy of Sciences 98"
The paper is linked above, here's a quote from a space.com story on it:
The chains we discovered are of biological origin," said Dr. Imre Friedmann, an NRC senior research fellow at NASA's Ames Research Center in California's Silicon Valley and leader of the research team. "Such a chain of magnets outside an organism would immediately collapse into a clump due to magnetic forces," he said
Do you have a later reference that disputes this? It seemed pretty clear.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That is, of course, absolutely correct. It's just that the long-term policy fix demanded by those trying to blow us up is that we convert to Wahabist Islam and exterminate the Jews. That is the absolute long and short of their demands - not "social justice", not "economic equality", not "fair trade", not anything else.
The long-term policy fix proposed by our side is to eliminate the terrorists' willingness and ability to blow us up.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
With any luck, so will Osama when our troops have him surrounded.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
The astronaughts on the moon were more hopping or skipping than walking. Walking is extremely efficient, hopping isn't. Plus the low gravity would weaken just about every physical system in your body: bones, muscles, heart, etc. unless you spend a large portion of your day exercising in some sort of artificial gravity room (probably something that spins around).
I got that backwards...
Take the reciprocal of that.
Finding life would provide a simple answer to a simple question. Not finding life leaves the answer unknown.
The question is: "Are we alone?"
From a more practical viewpoint, easily mined water resources=cheaper trips to mars and higher likelihood of colonization.
Colonization=redundancy mechanism for human survival.
Human Survival=Human's primary goal.
Therefore, easily mined water=first step toward achiving primary goal.
We as humans tend to have a very limited view of what the "conditions for life" are. Remember, we (and all life on our planet) are just one offshoot, a genetic path that happened to work.
Life can, and will, evolve in conditions we deem "impossible to support life" - by which we don't mean life itself, we mean human life. And it will, of course, be wildly different from anything we can possibly imagine (none of this Star Trek every-alien-looks-humanoid nonsense).
I'm sure that somewhere in the random possibilities of chaos there's the possibility of a life form that could thrive in a Martian climate. And they'd probably look at Earth-like environments and go "nah, life could _never_ be supported on that..."
Life's a tenacious little shit =)
Monotheist religions, especially Christianity and it's prodigious children, state that we are the only intelligent life in the universe, the special chosen children of God, uniquely formed in his image. It was heresy to suggest otherwise for a long time, and in some sects still is.
Think of the shit Copernicus got in for suggesting a solar-centric universe.... imagine if he's suggested these "harmonious, heavenly spheres" had other life forms on them.
The surface isn't as dusty as they originally thought right? If dust is the limiting factor on Spirits battery life since it eventually blocks out it's solar panels. Dust will now accumulate at a much slower rate and thereby give Spirit a much longer life. We might have a good year of roving possible. Think of how much we could explore!
Things are not as they appear, nor are they otherwise
That's the Jersey shore! They are trying to pull one over on us like the fake moon landing!
Yes Zubrin is a huge proponent of sending humans to Mars for research.
However in the book "Mars on Earth" he lays out in the first chapter all of the political details around the search for life on Mars that really provides some interesting illumination on behind the scenes stuff that goes on.
While some people may still be doubting the results of that paper, some of them may have questionable motives for doing so.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Usually considered to be water-reactive? Either it is or it isn't.
I could kill you, sure, but I could only make you cry with these words
Nah. At this rate, I think old age will've had him long before that
Curiosity was framed. Ignorance killed the cat.
[irony]the truth will set you free[/irony]
Why assume I don't know where it comes from?
One of the principal reasons I don't believe everything in the Bible is because I have read most of it. (I skipped all those begats...). Enjoy yur invisible friend; just keep him to yourself.
Science fiction for grown-ups...
So if you're one of the NASA supporters who stresses the technology we gain (like cell phones and freeze-dried ice cream), you must now sell us on the technological benefits of Martian concrete.
Might this soil crust on Mars be same/similar to the LIVING biological soil crust found at Arches National Park (Moab, Utah)?
Additional details regarding biological soil crusts maybe are to found here:
intermediate details
advanced details
Hello NASA JPL ... Hello? ... Hello? Have you considered that you have perhaps seen evidence of life on Mars? Hello? Hello?
Earth-to-NASA JPL
Hello?
I believe Juanita
The summary mismentions something, it claims that since olivine is "water-reactive" it is "volcanic in origin." Olivine does weather relatively quickly in the presence of water, but that doesn't mean it is a volcanic. Limestone also weathers quickly in water, but is definately not igneous. Also, olivine is a mineral, not necessarily a rock. The rock with high olivine is peridotite. In addition, olivine occurs other places, such as mid ocean ridges, and in the lower crust in general and in the lithosphere.
After the rover arm pressed soil down, the top layer of dust hardly moved When all else fails, use a bigger hammer.
I couldn't think of a sig.
I find myself wandering; "If we find life on Mars will it be related?"
Meteorites originating from mars do land on earth. Surly rocks from earth have found there way to mars. Perhaps taking life with them? We are losing some of our outer atmosphere all the time, surly some microbes must escape also? They would face the cold vacuum of space and all that radiation, dieing a cold lonely death. But give our microbe a big enough rock of the right type, and there would seem to be some hope of survival.
Have you got a relative on Mars?
Most of the freaking cosmos is well outside our light cone (age of universe we measure from here times mass of universe fresh off the press).
Maybe we *should* focus more of our energies with the cone of cause and effect that matters in the here and now.
Suppose we do find the "answer to the cosmos". What are we going to do next, push the starter button?
I'm sure the universe would be very impressed and all, but with a clock cycle of about one femtohertz (the speed at which the universe agrees with itself), I'm not sticking around for a pat on the back.
Well, maybe, anyway... Look to the lower right of the magic carpet area of the first set of mars photots - especially the marstrue.jpg image form http://www.lyle.org/mars/ There's a set of oddly regular pairs of white-ish dots arranged in a more-or-less straight line. Reminiscent of, perhaps, fish ribs sticking up, or the spinal bones of some worm-like creature. Can the Rover back up and take a closer photo?
"Sic Semper Path of Least Resistance"
The three major monotheist religions are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Their sacred texts, the source of most (if not all) of their dogma, are the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran. Kindly site a sinlge line from any of these three books which states that we are the only intelligent life in the universe.
I'll tell you what, I'll save you some time on that assignment, and tell you that you can't. There is no such statement of doctorine in any of these religions.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I'm glad someone appreciated it. Shit, I thought I'd get at least *one* +1; Funny out of that crap. Moderators have no sense of humour....
Go ask a priest. I did when I was younger and at a Catholic school....
The answer was an undoubtable "no, we alone are the children of God." And this was the official teaching of the Catholic church. I know for a fact Prebytarian (sp?) and Anglican teach the same.
Or, you could read some history books. I'm fairly sure it was Keppler that got in the shit for writing a sci-fi book (possibly the first one) about life on other worlds.
As for the holy books, you could very well be right. On the other hand, since when has Christianity (as a whole) paid any attention to the bible? I seem to recall something about "thou shalt not kill"... but I digress.
If this doesn't start a flame war, I'm doing something wrong.