Free Software at the Local Library?

DoraLives asks: "I live in a small town in East Central Florida, nearly in the shadow of the launch pads at Cape Canaveral. People generally expect that a place like this would be quite technologically advanced. Unfortunately, this isn't always true, and a case in point is the local library. They have a nice collection of CD's, and you might think you'd see Free Software CD's on the rack right next to Frank Zappa, Duke Ellington, and Bach. Think again, no such thing obtains here, or in any of the other libraries hereabouts." Aside from Linux and BSD install discs, what other pieces of software might make good items for the software section in your local public library? "I went and talked to the director of the local library about having them provide a Knoppix disk or something similar to those unfortunates, who cannot afford a high speed internet connection to download and burn their own copies. Mr. Director seemed quite unaware as to the entire concept of Free Software and asked me to provide him with a 'list of this free software,' for his review. So, as part of my research into what's available out there, I thought I'd run this one past the users of Slashdot and see what they might recommend by way of operating systems, utilities, applications, and all the rest of the free stuff that's available for download and burning, that would make good items for the shelves of a lending library.

Methinks the inhabitants of my little burg would be tickled to find out that the entire computing world is NOT owned by a corporation in Washington state. I further think that this could be a fine way to get the word, and the actual software, out to the masses. Am I right? Can Slashdot help me with Mr. Director's need for information so he can make an informed decision."

Comments

doopdy doop

[insensitive claude]

Choice of titles aside, this subject has been covered before.

Re:doopdy doop

[tylernt]

WTF! I submitted this to Slashdot earlier today and got rejected. I wish I was kidding.

I'm not sure if it makes me feel better or worse that it's a dupe anyway.

Everything's free at my library.

[Neil Blender]

I just put it my backpack and then make like a tree and leave.

Re:Everything's free at my library.

[SphericalCrusher]

I'm sure they would have some sort of thing against this though. Maybe you would have to sign up for it -- reducing the people that will just grab about 10 CDs for the hell of it. It's still possible though... it just lessens how many people might actually do it.

Why CDs?

[toxic666]

Why not just set up a PC with a burner, post instructions and allow people to burn to their own CDs?

It would save the hassle of checking out a CD (like the music ones) and the software provided would, by definition, be legal to copy.

Re:Why CDs?

[Kenja]

"Why not just set up a PC with a burner, post instructions and allow people to burn to their own CDs?"

That would let people come in and make copies of the non-free stuff.

Re:Why CDs?

[Anonymous Coward]

For my sake, please add that phrase to urbandictionary.com using this link.

Re:Why CDs?

[Anonymous Coward]

That hasn't stopped libraries from having photocopiers.

Re:Why CDs?

[taped2thedesk]

That would let people come in and make copies of the non-free stuff.

So does a copy machine, but you see plenty of those in the library.

Putting burners in libraries shouldn't be a problem, unless a state has a particular problem... I know my school library provides cd-burners in a large number of pcs, and have seen several others that do the same. Mine just posts a warning poster on the wall telling you that you shouldn't make illegal copies of copyrighted material, thus covering their butts (just like they post that big scary FBI copyright warning by the copy machines).

Besides, CD-Rs and CD-RWs are common as a storage medium now... many people use library computers, and can store their data on 1 CD rather than lugging around a bunch of floppies.

Re:Why CDs?

[Total_Wimp]

So how about a computer with large HD and "Jukebox" software that lets you burn the free software on demand, but no other software?

TW

Re:Why CDs?

[WhiteDragon]

That would let people come in and make copies of the non-free stuff.

Yes, and they have a photocoper at the library. It is not the job of the library to force patrons to obey the copyright laws. That is the job of law enforcement (in the case of criminal violation). Most libraries I have been to have big signs all over near the photocopier explaining exactly what copyright law allows to be copied, and what is forbidden. They could have similar signs at the computer for burning CDs. Alternatively, they could have a computer set up as a kiosk that would only burn certain preapproved images.

Re:Why CDs?

[JonBuck]

Bit of a problem, here. FYI, I'm a librarian myself.

CDs cost money. The PC costs money. Libraries don't have that kind of budget. Even if only a hundred people per year make that request, the costs would include:

1) Media. Including bad burns that must be discarded.
2) Computer time. Libraries often do not have state-of-the-art equipment. The computer doing the burning might not be able to do anything else while it's running.
3) Staff time. Something that is often missed. While this could be delegated to a library assistant.

Imagine what would happen if that number increased tenfold. We're talking thousands of dollars. It would be better for them to burn one or two sets of CDs and have them available for circulation, and simply replace them when they wear out. If a patron wants to purchase a CD copy for themselves then they would have to pay for it. Or they could do it at home.

I can see this as more viable in academic library settings. OpenOffice and other Free Software alternatives will help students get the type of software they need to write papers, create presentations, etc.. For public libraries... well, that would be up to the individual library.

Re:Why CDs?

[really?]

Good points, but ...
1. You could sell the media. In fact you could add a couple pennies to the price and offset some of other costs.
2. You don't need a new/fast/etc computer for this. I think a you could easily find a geek who will be happy to donate and set up his/her "second machine."
3. Once this is set up properly, it should require little, or no, maintenance. If you really do need to get something done/changed/etc ... get in touch geek from "2" or find some other volunteer. If I walked into my local public library and saw such a setup, I would definitely enquire about helping, and I think others would do too.

Of course, not being a librarian, I have no idea as to what kid of laws/rules/etc regulate this kind of thing.

Re:Why CDs?

[0x12d3]

There's plenty of kindly, good-hearted people out there who could make constructive, as intended use of this.

--And then there are h4x0rz

Re:Why CDs?

[HybridJeff]

I dont really see why it shoud have to cost the library much at all. No one said that the library has to give out CDs for free, eitehr let peolple bring them their own, or sell them at a small profit to pay off the computer.

You wouldnt exactly need a top of the line computer either, its just burning CDs. Any PC less than 5 years old should be more than enough. Try goign up to some big tech company and seeing if they could donate one of ther older machines. Its worth a shot.

The only real cost would be the time required to set up the system and support it.

Re:Why CDs?

[pete6677]

If it were easy to copy entire books, I guarantee library photocopiers would either have been outlawed or their use would have been heavily restricted. The only reason publishers didn't see it as much of a threat is because it was only practical to copy a few pages at a time.

Re:Why CDs?

[TexasDex]

I understand that it would be hard, especially with budget cuts, but library patrons will understand too.

After all there are very few libraries that do not charge 5 or 10 cents for photocopies, and my public library currently charges 25 cents for every color page that is printed. They also charge $1.00 for diskettes for patrons to save word documents made using the two word-processing only computers (which do not have internet connections).

It is not at all unreasonable to think people might pay for such CD. And that itself would increase the percieved value of the CD (after all people would be less likely to use it as a frisbee if it cost them a buck). I don't know what kind of library you come from, but I think no library could allow unlimited use of consumeable resources and keep within it's budget.

If given a simple explanation of what they are getting (i.e. "OpenOffice is a free alternative to Microsoft Office. It has a very similar interface, and can be used on ") I think people would pay for a "burn to suit" service that lets them use a simple interface to create a CD with exactly what they want on it.

You know what... I'm gonna talk to the librarians at the Fredrikson about this idea. I think they might like it.

Re:Why CDs?

[Daengbo]

Come to Thailand, and I will show you a land where university profs send their textbook to one of the ten photocopy places on campus or another ten just off campus to copy the entire book for all 2-3000 students taking their intro classes. Unless the book is written by one of the profs, I have never seen the real schmeel in a student's hands. Never. Photocopying a Bash book from the library on campus is as easy as taking it to the library photocopier and asking them to do is for 50 satang (about 1.2 cents) per page. If they are too busy to do the whole thing, they'll send it out to one of the volume shops outside for you. You know not of what you speak...

Re:Why CDs?

[gujo-odori]

This has, IMO, more merit than just having the CDs in the library because:

1) Anybody who can't follow written instructions to burn a CD probably isn't able to install the software on their own anyway, even if you provide them with a ready-burned CD;

2) Keeping physical CDs will, after a while, result in the library having a big stock of obsolete software which should not be installed. People will doubtless check it out, install it anyway, and promptly get owned. At least if it's kept on a PC, the free software library is a little more likely to be updated regularly and the people who access it are probably a little more clueful and might have a better chance of recognizing that something is out of date.

For several years I was the materials librarian of the Tokyo Linux Users Group (yes, it's written without an apostrophe :-p) and I periodically went through our CD collection and threw out anything old enough to be considered dangerously out of date. If someone doesn't do that at the library, they'll wind up with a town full of zombies, and the town's healthy computers will all have to flee to the shopping mall and make a last stand there.

Re:Why CDs?

[mqduck]

I don't know what it's like in a rest of the world, but here in boring Silicon Valley, Mountain View city in particular, our library has a few dozen computers from, I'm guessing... '99? And, like a million other people have suggested, the library could charge for the blanks or make you bring your own.

Re:Why CDs?

[shadowbearer]

Good points, all. Let's leave aside the problem of downloading/burning CDs for now (see below)

What I see as the biggest problem is answering the questions that patrons might have - IOW, support. The whole idea would die if the patrons couldn't get support and tutoring in using what they had borrowed - and could freely copy.

The only viable solution WRT to support that I can see is LUGs - but that might get to be debilitating for a lot of local LUGs in terms of time spent. Most LUG members are already busy as hell.

It's a horrid catch22. I donate to my local library, and spend a lot of time there, and they know me really well. I'd be perfectly willing to keep linux CDs up to date for them - I already do it for anyone who wants a copy of linux dists, I have a 20 GB HD dedicated to linux ISOs - I have a very high bw connection and fast burner and they've expressed interest but I had to tell them - I don't have time to support patrons (hell, I'm turning down paying requests to fix machines now, as it is ;( and am already working overtime at the job I have + doing this)

Argh! Such a great idea (I read the Dec article too) yet there is no real answer to it that doesn't involve the patrons ultimately paying for support/tutoring in one fashion or another.

Perhaps a partial answer might be dedicated LUGs giving classes at local libraries for interested parties, volunteer. I don't know whether that would work. I honestly don't know what would work! but I do know that having FOSS CDs available at a local library is a damned good idea, and right in line with what libraries are for. (Our local LUG is dead; I 'm trying to revive/restart one, but so far no success)

One of the people I work with is a city councilwoman; I've brought the idea up to her wrt to funding; she doesn't know that she can ram anything thru, but she's said she's going to try. Sounds like I may be able to present at a meeting this summer. Hope I can achieve coherence :)

There has to be an answer somewhere. I hope so, anyway.

Respect,

SB
Frequenting and supporting his local librar(ies) for 25yrs+

Re:Why CDs?

[Reziac]

I don't think the support issue is part of the picture. After all, if you check out a book on rocket science, the library isn't obligated to have a rocket scientist on call to explain it to you! Nor should they be required to have a linux geek on call to help you install it.

As to the issue of "in-library duplicating" -- this isn't the library's job either. If you want to photocopy a book, you've got to do it on your own time. Same should apply to a CD. Take it home, dupe it, bring it back just like you would anything else.

Now, it would be reasonable for the library to sell pre-duped copies for those who don't have a CDRW drive -- but the price ought to be about what LSL or cheapdisks (or whoever is selling $3 linux CDs now) offers them at -- $2 to $3 per disk. That covers cost of media and overhead, and could use the same back-office machine as the library makes its own archive and lending duplicates on. (Need not be an in-house machine; it could be done on a machine owned by one of the librarians, who is then paid a small fee -- maybe 50 cents per disk to cover media and wear-&-tear -- for doing the work.) -- Our local libraries are so strapped for cash that the "Friends of the Library" book sale is a Big Deal, at 50 cents per volume. I don't think they'd turn down a buck or so profit on a CDR full of free software.

Anyway, let's not make a good idea so complicated that libraries won't touch it. It need not be any more complex than lending out any other materials; what you do with it after you check it out is not the library's problem. The only difference is that patrons can legally make copies of this borrowed material.

Re:Why CDs?

[pedrop357]

Not necessarily. If potential copyright violations were what would make or break this kind of idea, the libraries could lock down the PC and use some kind of scripted program with icons that you click on to burn the various images they have stored on a central server. I realize bandwidth would be an issue, unless they set up only a couple of PCs with burners.

Re:Why CDs?

[necro2607]

1 - Patrons pay for their own CD, say $0.50 each, or some similar price.
2 - One CD burning station is all that's needed. I don't think it would be in huge demand. A 233mhz pentium could surely burn a CD just fine (not that I know from personal experience).
3 - One [experienced] employee is all you'd need for setup and administration of the CD-burning station.

I agree about the "academic library settings" comment, and I think this would actually be a great idea for colleges/universities and so on.

By the way, my local libraries have at least 10-20 computers each, most of which, from what I can tell, are at least a good 300mhz fast. The two libraries nearest me offer - for registered library members - free net access (around low-end DSL speeds) for up to 1 hour per patron per day. There are also many terminals for library database searching and also some personal workstations which offer word processing and the likes.

Of course, I'm sure it depends on the city and what kind of funding is given to the libraries. As far as I know our libraries also get pretty decent donations, so I guess that's a factor as well.

Re:Why CDs?

[adamofgreyskull]

A good solution might be for the local LUG to donate hardware/free time. They keep a collection of Free Software on the machine which can be burnt to a user-provided CD with the click of a button.

This is probably characteristically idealistic of me..but that's the kind of guy I am.

Re:Why CDs?

[drooling-dog]

Practicalities aside - and I don't think they're insurmountable here - libraries are going to have to continue to rethink the services they provide as the world around them changes. That may mean cutting back on some legacy services - such as paper-based books - to free up resources for digital media. If they don't do this, public libraries will increasingly be viewed as irrelevant by the communities they serve, and support from those communities will wane as a result.

Re:Why CDs?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a librarian too and I use lots of open source software. This idea is an interesting one, but I would oppose it because it introduces too many new costs to libraries which are always cash-strapped and spend wy too much money on tech. If you want to get library workers behind this, address their needs when it comes to salary and pay first. If more money was available for a library, I'd hope that it would be spent on staff salary, books, magazines, and other reading materials. These days, when libraries get more money, they spend it on new buildings and more tech. I've been a techie librarian for a long time, but I hate what public libraries have turned into.

Re:Why CDs?

[juhaz]

1) Media. Including bad burns that must be discarded.

Can be dealt in the same way as paper & ink costs for photocopies are - sell the media.

2) Computer time. Libraries often do not have state-of-the-art equipment. The computer doing the burning might not be able to do anything else while it's running.

Burning only takes few minutes on modern burners, so this it not really big problem... however, I'd delegate a computer (it does not need to be very good) solely for this mostly for the next one.

3) Staff time. Something that is often missed. While this could be delegated to a library assistant.

This is a problem if it's general purpose burning station with normal software, people wouldn't know how to use it and would need staff help, however if it's only burning predetermined collection of software there could be a special software with dead simple GUI that turns it into a vending machine machine of sort - insert cd, select a category (applications, games, os), and be presented with selection, burning wouldn't need anything more than inserting cd to drive and clicking an icon. This does probably not exist but it's not complicated, I expect you'd find a load of volunteers for writing such a program if you ask.

Imagine what would happen if that number increased tenfold. We're talking thousands of dollars.

With system like that the only requirements for staff time would be initial set-up and keeping the software stored in it up to date, no matter how many thousand patrons would be using it. What comes to that initial cost, the system would be perhaps $200 or so, maybe $50 for initial stack of 100 cd's and let's say a day to set it up. I don't know whether that's too much, enlighten me.

Re:Why CDs?

[shadowbearer]

Well, books and software are different; nobody expects support for a book, but they do expect it with software. Hence LUGs.

I do like your other ideas (particularly media fees).

SB
(Who spent over fifty bucks at the last library book sale :)

Re:Why CDs?

[Reziac]

But if you check out a book on backyard rocketry, you don't expect the library to support your efforts to launch the next rival to Armadillo Aerospace, nor is the library liable if you blow yourself up ... nor should you expect support for checked-out software, nor expect the library to assume fault if you nuke your existing setup with it. And a big sign stating "WE DON'T SUPPORT IT" and the sponsoring user group's URL and contact info should cover whatever anyone needs.

I spend too much at the library book sales too... last time I moved, my own library was two full (to the topper's roof) pickup loads. Yeah, like I need more books. :)

Re:Why CDs?

[shadowbearer]

I'm not saying that *I* would; I'm saying that a lot of the public would. Which is a good argument for Knoppix bootable CDs :)

Book sales: Oy, I know that feeling. I can't build shelving fast enough. I have 9 60 gallon totes full of books and they just, um, breed :) I can't walk away! Help! Visited the local Salvation army a week ago looking for some cheap blankets to use as throways... didn't find them, but walked away with several hundred issues of F&SF magazine from the 80s - be reading them for years, I suspect :)

Meanwhile the local library staff finds much glee in stacking books for me on the counter when I visit. ("Look, I found this, and this, and this..." and my back groans under the weight of carrying them out :) and I just can't say no. How could I? (thank bog I'm not into Harlequin or other useless rag - tho I do have many copies of various print dates of Heinlein :)

Know of a good support group for book packrats?

Cheers!
SB

Re:Why CDs?

[Reziac]

Well, the library would just have to make it clear that there is no support and it's strictly use at your own risk. No different from the risk of being exposed to new ideas every time you read a book!

Also, this hooks into the argument that software should be sold, not licensed -- exactly like BOOKS are sold, not licensed. Since the library isn't licensing you anything, they don't owe you anything.

Librarian in Montana was like that.. I'd come in the door and she'd start waving books at me. She was great! Much better system than Los Angeles County, too -- I had access to every book from Cleveland to Seattle. The only trouble with libraries is, you have to give the books back!

My computer-related books alone cover something over 120 linear feet of shelving -- one floor-to-ceiling unit is full of programming stuff, and I'm not even a coder (tho an interested bystander); another is half-full of Wordperfect stuff (now that I do use). One pickup-load worth of paperbacks are still boxed from the move in 2001, til I get around to more shelving. Someday they're going to band together and take over my house. I'm thankful that I never cared for pulp SF mags, cuz otherwise I'm sure that woulda followed me home too (most of the ppbks are SF/F).

Support groups for bookaholics... um, alt.binaries.e-book? :)

Re:Why CDs?

[shadowbearer]

Well, the library would just have to make it clear that there is no support and it's strictly use at your own risk. No different from the risk of being exposed to new ideas every time you read a book!

Our litigational society is wonderful, neh? :) Give 'em time, give 'em time...they'll find a way. Bastards. Only thing stopping the censorists is public opinion - but the fight alone is putting serious hurt on libraries. (that, and computers - but private industry wrt to public computer koisks is in it's own kind of hurt :( )

Seriously, there will be requests for support for said software wrt to librarians. You and I both know there will be. What I'm saying is that there will be people who could fill that niche - but it'd be damned hard for a lot of people to do so without making it an occupation - ie, charging for it. Volunteerism only goes so far (sigh).

I haven't done any serious coding myself for many, many years; but collect, collect. I for one welcome my book overlords :)

I moved a thousand miles almost a year ago; sold 95% of what I owned; it was a three week+ running garage sale. The funniest thing about it is that the books/manuals/assorted printouts went in the first week, and the three walkin closets full of old but working computer equipment and assorted debris from 6 years+ of carpentry work trickled out.
What does that mean? :)

Librarian in Montana was like that.. I'd come in the door and she'd start waving books at me. She was great! :))) small town librarians... I missed them - where I was living before I moved, well... then I moved here. We're old fashioned, here. Thou knowest what I mean... what a great bunch. I was seeking a old Dave_Barry book recently, not on the computer list - but one local librarian not only had the book in her personal lib, but was willing to loan it to me. Nostalgia == what libs are about!

The only trouble with libraries is, you have to give the books back!

No, that's the great thing about libraries - the bad thing is, they don't have the shelf space to accomodate what you can give them...

Support groups for bookaholics... um, alt.binaries.e-book? :)

Another enabler :) My ebook collection hasn't surpassed my physical one yet, but only because of my guilt factor :)

Someday they're going to band together and take over my house.

*grin*

Montana...

Black Hills, SD bookworm here. Middle of nowhere...we're the center of everywhere! :)

Cheers, oh bookworm!
SB

Re:Why CDs?

[leandrod]

> its just burning CDs. Any PC less than 5 years old should be more than enough

Much older than that. Any CD burner will suffice, with any OS supporting it. I guess even 4MiB memory would suffice.

Re:Why CDs?

[HybridJeff]

touche...

although I think Id opt for more than 4MB of ram, youd need some kind GUI for the generel public to use.

Gnu Win CD

[paulproteus]

In all fairness, you should probably focus on Free Software for Windows, at least to get the project off the ground.

You should check out the GNUWin CD, a CD of lots of Free software for Win32, at least for inspiration on what to give users.

If you can make pop-in-the-drive-double-click-and-run CDs of things like OpenOffice or Mozilla Firefox (i.e., without installing), those would be great for demos. Perhaps an OpenOffice.org 2-CD set: One demo disc, one install CD. That way people could try it and realize how much they want it. :-)

Also, consider pointing them to a good online support forum. It makes a lot of sense to have your own user-support service for your little project, or for others like it. That way, you can say, "Let me just drive over." A PhpBB setup would do fine for that.

Re:Gnu Win CD

[ttldkns]

Dont forget to have a paper CD sleeve explaining in very simple terms what to do.

Also a label of "free software" could give the image to the regular library goer of inferior quality as sowtware is (for them) associated with cost. A more subtle title such as "public software" is also more accurate and is something that follows logically in a public library.

Re:Gnu Win CD

[LostCluster]

There's also The Open CD which is a similar project with the same purpose... point-and-click installs of several useful apps.

Re:Gnu Win CD

[alexdm]

I don't think "fair" would be to concentrate on distributing win32 applications over unix based ones in these times.
With Linux desktops arriving at stores, I think it would be suffice to, make the availability of softwares, equal over the different operating systems.

So that randomBob_032932, who bought one of those cheaper priced computers(or is thinking about), and without internet, would be able to obtain some of these productivity softwares to go with his machine.
And would be comforted to know, that he wouldn't be left without softwares for his system, because there are a multitude of softwares available for his pc at the public library.

So in all fairness, to not try to steer peoples mind--give them the choice , and provide equal amounts or whats avaible of free software for the different systems. Afterall, isnt this what OSS is about anyway?

Re:Gnu Win CD

[AlexDV]

I work in a small library as a clerk/computer tech, and I'm currently trying to some copies of The OpenCD into our collection. I still have to run it by our director, but hopefully we'll have a good collection of Open Source software available by the end of summer. A lot of our patrons are students who come in to type up reports. If I had to guess, most of them probably have computers at home, but might not have any good word processing software. OpenOffice would probably work just as well for them as MS Office, and we would be saving them a lot of money. If their are any other librarians out there who have been successful lending Open Source software, I'd love to hear about it. Drop me an e-mail at: advancina@manhattan.lib.il.us Thanks :)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

clearly

[Transient0]

libraries should carry all the current top selling video games available only for single night loans. Ideally they should also have a vending machine that sells CDRs and a pamphlet full of links to circumventing copy protection.

no, wait, I meant they should carry OpenOffice.

Most library users are windows users...

[centralizati0n]

Windows open source software can be great, so check out the The Open CD. It includes such wonderful things as (in type-of-application order):
OpenOffice.org, AbiWord, GIMP
Mozilla, FileZilla, TightVNC, WinHTTrack, PuTTY
Audacity, CDex, Crack Attack!, Sokoban YASC, Celestia, Really Slick Screensavers

7-Zip, SciTE, WinPT, NetTime
All of that would be great. Maybe even print up a little intro booklet to help the user in deciding what to install.

Re:Most library users are windows users...

[Andrew1963]

Check out the actions of Bob Kerr in Scotland. He has arranged for a copy of the Open CD to be available at every public library in Scotland.

Licensing

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt many public libraries can afford the $699 license fee required for Linux.

Re:Licensing

[FattMattP]

That doesn't matter. Soon SCO won't be able to afford the paper to print those invoices anyway.

Re:Licensing

[Simonetta]

Although this comment is scored funny, it's not really.

Most libraries would be very hesitant to put a 'contested copyright' item on the shelf for copying (after checkout - at home) knowing that they MIGHT get legally harassed for doing it.

This is most true for operating system software CDs.

It is not true for normal music/audio/spoken word CDs as public libraries take the position that ordinary CDs that are checked out will only be listened to and not copied.

I get most of my music from the two local libraries (one main library for the city and the library system in the wealthy suburbs). I used to just grab about ten CDs at a time off the shelf and rip them to MP3s, listen to them selectively, and burn the best music to 15 cent CD-R blanks. After about a thousand albums, I got a little bored with stuff like "1000 Bulgarian Accordians Play the Beatles", but I still found lots of interesting stuff that I would have never heard from any other avenue of music exposure.

I copied a lot of music that I'm not interested in now but may be in the future because I believe that it's only a matter of time before the RIAA targets libraries for having CDs available for checkout. You could come into the library one day and find all the music CDs, just, gone. All it takes is one paid-off judge. And we sure have plenty of those around here. So I copied everything that I could with the idea that I might possibly enjoy a different type of music (like jazz or classical) in ten years time when all the music may possibly have been removed from the library shelves.

[How's that for a verb tense? Subjunctive Future Perfect? Too much college, not enough beer]

Re:Licensing

[No Such Agency]

I got a little bored with stuff like "1000 Bulgarian Accordians Play the Beatles",

I dunno, I think I'd *have* to listen to that one, just on principle. I mean, 1000 accordions!

RE: FS in the Lib

[fshalor]

1. Mozilla.
2. Manuals.
3. Slashdot archives.
4. Linux/Unix howtos
5. Freshmeat archived snapshots.
6. Gnu utils.
7. All the distros...

I'm going to actually be checking into this soon at our local lib. My whole compter experience started off at a freenet helpdesk in the library back in like 95...Man.. I can give bacl.

Has anone noticed?

[djupedal]

Libraries are dead...

Re:Has anone noticed?

[Graftweed]

Sure they're dead, if you happen to have a 24/7 broadband connection to serve your hunger for information, but sadly this isn't the case for many people out there.

There are other reasons for seeking out a library, such as a little peace and quiet in which to do some research, online or not. Oddly enough you sometimes also can't get this at home.

Re:Has anone noticed?

[NineNine]

Well, I don't know of another place where I can get books for free, do you?

Re:Has anone noticed?

[LoFat ByLine]

Libraries are dead...

OK, I'll feed you. What do you mean? The physical space or the idea? Not that it matters much.

Libraries as physical space: Lots of information, especially books, are not available in digital format and may never be. Even if they were, digital isn't the preferred format for lots of people. Maybe someday this won't be the case, but that's not the point: Right now, communities still need a place to store physical media.

Libraries as idea: Basically, a library is a bunch of people pooling their money to build a collection of information much greater than any of them could amass individually. Doesn't matter what format the information takes. The only thing that could kill the library as idea is for all (or almost all) the information anyone could want to be available and easy to access for free. That hasn't happened yet either, and it's not likely to happen for a looong time, if ever.

So burn some discs and donate them

[ElectricPoppy]

what's the big deal?

Which reminds me of my youth:

[Neil Blender]

In high school, I'd peel the magnetic stickers that set the alarms off out of books and crumple them up. I'd then walk by some unsuspecting stranger and surreptitiously drop the strip into their bag or umbrella. When they tried to leave all hell would break loose. Sometimes I'd put it inside one of my friend's textbook or something. I use to think they'd catch me because I'd be laughing so hard. Hilarity.

Re:Which reminds me of my youth:

[nametaken]

This is slashdot, I expected to hear how you'd check them out, then go home... dial in to their catalog system with a shoulder-surfed password, and check them back in and out under different people's names so you could keep them.

Re:Which reminds me of my youth:

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to do that as well, except I put them in pens, people's own books, *inside* calculators. Ah, so fun to watch.

Re:Which reminds me of my youth:

[darkonc]

You seem confused about the difference between a technological practical joke and larceny. One is funny (at least for the perpetrator) and might, at most, classify as mischeif.

The other could qualify under theft, forgery and/or a a boatload of the new cyber-crime felonies.

And stealing from a library, for chrissakes! You should apply for a job at SCO!

Re:Which reminds me of my youth:

[nametaken]

I'm not doing any such thing. Deep breaths!

Re:Which reminds me of my youth:

[SEWilco]

You should apply for a job at SCO!

Someone works there?

Re:Which reminds me of my youth:

[Wolfrider]

--Yah - the lawyers. They're the only ones left though.

Re:Which reminds me of my youth:

[Anonymous Coward]

Supreme overlord McBride still works there as well.

I forget the name of it

[RLiegh]

but the cd that has the windows version of OSS apps on it.

Re:I forget the name of it

[fmileto]

gnuwinII

Well, music software is there.

[Thinkit4]

Audio CDs. I've never straight up ripped while I'm there, though. Anyone daring enough to do so?

If you don't like the idea, at least donate to the library if you can. Yes, pessemists, audio CDs can be rented at the library.

DUPE!

[LostCluster]

I can't believe this... we've run out of original topics.

Ask Slashdot has gone into reruns...

There isn't even an article here and we still got a dupe.

Knoppix and OpenOffice

[fhic]

It probably doesn't answer the question, since my local library doesn't lend software. But every month or so I burn a handful of CD-Rs with Knoppix, Lindows^W Linspire, and OpenOffice and drop them in the public area of the lobby. I label them with a unique URL so I can see if anybody's paying attention. I get hits off maybe half of them, and occasionally an email to the tune of "hey, you got any more of this stuff?" Hopefully I'm collecting some good karma somewhere. :-)

Re:Knoppix and OpenOffice

[LostCluster]

Have you talked to the librarians? Maybe they could find you a local funding partner so that there could be an enough-to-go-around supply at the front desk...

Re:Knoppix and OpenOffice

[fhic]

Funding is not a problem. While I'm no Bill Gates, I can afford to give away five or six spindle's worth of CD-Rs a year. :-)

My local branch library is pretty small, but branch libraries are the heart and soul of libraries everywhere. If they can give away everything that I give them, I'm entirely prepared to give them way more. I could constantly burn CD-Rs from now until my dying day and not give back a tenth of what local public libraries have given me over the years.

In fact, I offer up this challenge to my fellow Slashdotters: every time you visit your local branch library, do what I do: drop off a few (or a whole bunch of) CD-Rs with free or open source software and let me know by email at library (at) hicinbothem.com. If there's any response, I'll do my best to get a FPP with details of our successes.

I am far from an anti-Microsoft zealot, but this is the way we will win that war: by showing computer users who can think, and yes, one by one, that there are better alternatives to IE and Outlook, and yes, there are even better OSes than Windows.

Re:Knoppix and OpenOffice

[Sri Lumpa]

"Hopefully I'm collecting some good karma somewhere. :-)"

All I can say is that if you are it probably isn't in Redmond nor in Provoh(sp?).

Which library?

[Gangis]

Which library? Just out of curiosity. I live in Indialantic, also under the shadow of the cape. There are three libraries near me, Eau Gallie Library on Pineapple Road, the Melbourne Beach City Library where Nick's Steakhouse used to be on A1A, and some library I haven't gone to in Satellite Beach.

I may be interested in helping out on your endeavor, since I am local and I support spreading awareness of free software. :)

Re:Which library?

[JabberWokky]

I may be interested in helping out on your endeavor, since I am local and I support spreading awareness of free software. :)

Gangis M. Khan

Be careful - this guy also almost pillaged Europe. If he gets cocky trying to help you spread CDs, I suggest dusting him down with a little Comet. That did the trick when he was riding wild last time.

--
Evan

Re:Which library?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you two (Gangis and DoraLive) are part of the Melbourne LUG? That used to be (and still is?) is pretty active lug, and should have some folks who'd help out with this. Give Mlug a call...

Member of LEAP-CF in Orlando.

Re:Which library?

[Gangis]

No, I'm not part of the LUG. I've been way too busy -- but I know some people that I work with at CompUSA who might be. I'll ask around next week.

-Craig

Re:Which library?

[Gangis]

Ah, not too far then. I'll see what I can do. If they're agreeable, I may be able to whip up some CDs of free software. I should also check with the local libraries in my area, see if they're willing too.

Re:Which library?

[DoraLives]

I suspicion that this is going to get handed off to the Brevard County central library in Cocoa for a final decision (assuming that it even makes it out of the director's office in CB).

I'm not a member of ANY users group hereabouts (or any other group either for that matter, it's just something I don't go for) despite having local roots in the computer community hereabouts going all the way back to Jerry Russell's TechTalk (remember THAT?) and other BBS's, and consequently don't know what the local UG's may have by way of resources or inclination to support this sort of thing, but perhaps they should be asked for a bit of input/insight too?

Re:Which library?

[othiekan]

Wow, that's interesting... I live north of you a bit. I NEVER thought about talking to my library directory (North Brevard Public Library in Titusville) Good idea!

Re:Which library?

[DoraLives]

Whatta ya say we SLASHDOT the Brevard County Library System with user requests for software cd's?

Re:Which library?

[othiekan]

sure, if we find more brevardian slashdotters!

Re:Which library?

[moertle]

hey, i'm in mel-b!!! i hardly have any spare time these days, but it sounds like fun.

Re:Which library?

[Diclophis]

Satellite Beach Library was my old pimping grounds. Nothing like surfin the net on amber vt100 terminals... funny story anyone who had a library card was able to send 'electronic mail' to another person with card (i think the system running the text terminals also ran the card id system hence anyone with a card was a 'user' on the system and thus open to having 'email'). Put your tinfoil at on for what happens next... i zap an email to my buddy (jokingly of course) that i had planted a bomb under the principals desk at school... somehow the sysops read this and informed the police (who were not amused). There was also a librarian who worked there that strikingly resembled princess Leia

Re:Which library?

[PepperGrunties]

I can ask the Port Malabar Palm Bay library.

Malabar in the hizzouse!

Re:Which library?

[DoraLives]

When you go and ask, be sure to get the DIRECTOR, and not just one of the nice people at the counter. In my experience, getting hold of the director is not the easiest thing in the world. BUSY BUSY BUSY. Be patient and sooner or later the door will open and you're in.

Make your pitch in the interests of the library's PATRONS, as opposed to merely yourself. Directors like keeping their patrons happy.

Accentuate the CHEAPNESS and EASE of this approach, with the library only having to burn a few cd's following a FREE download from the inet.

Perhaps mention that since the cd's only cost pennies apiece, lost or damaged property (library property) expenses will be near nothing, with replacement of damaged/missing items being a matter of mere minutes and pennies. WAY better than the replacement costs on books, tapes, and PURCHASED cd's.

Libraries are on a tight budget (think: tax dollars going to really STUPID places, while the SMART places languish) and anything that can save them money while improving their ability to serve the community is something they're going to like.

Give it to them in a form THEY can relate to and your odds go way up.

Re:Which library?

[Anonymous Coward]

hey, i'm in palm bay and go to the port malabar library. cool to see other slashdotters in the area

b99c99@yahoo.com

Console media ?

[Thinkit4]

I'd imagine that would raise a bigger stink as the console copylockers are much more organized.

Re:Console media ?

[LostCluster]

I'd imagine that would raise a bigger stink as the console copylockers are much more organized.

So long as Blockbuster or other store can rent the game discs / DVDs, a library can buy the same package and charge zero to borrow it. It sucks to have a taxpayer funded competitor... but if that's how the local government wants to spend its money, what's stopping them?

Re:Console media ?

[Mike Hawk]

So buy it for them. When you have a limited budget and you have to choose between replacing your one copy of The Grapes of Wrath that has become too wretched to keep through years of use and OMFG LETS GET UT2k4, which one do you think the library will pick?

Re:Console media ?

[Mike Hawk]

I doubt anyone would care. If all publishers were certain of a sale of at least one copy of all titles to each and every library in America, I think they would welcome it with open arms.

It would probably make alot of the marginal propositions profitable if libraries were buying every game that came out.

Re:Console media ?

[LostCluster]

That's what I want to know! What's stopping them? They should have every game *ever* published for the PC.

Since when was the PC a console in video game terms?

Re:Console media ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you installed Windows on it.

Fast internet connection and CD burners?

[David Hume]

I have to ask whether your library has a fast internet connection and whether the computers have CD burners (that library clients can use)?

Not to disparage your idea by implication, it is excellent. I just thought that the above could help people access software the library does not have on CD. In addition, some Free Software is updated so quickly that a library might have trouble keeping up with regard to receiving and cataloging physical CDs.

Finally, many libraries keep a home page on their computers which lists various reference sites. Perhaps Free Software sites could be added to this list.

Re:Fast internet connection and CD burners?

[SeregonSandgrain]

Buddy, my library is still running 3.1 with Netscape 2 or 3, no burners, no cd drives even, and one old, noisy dot matrix printer. Oh, and those are the 'good' computers.

The rest are just dumb terminals that don't even support color.

Library demographics

[karlowfwb]

I work in a public library and my experience with the typical demographic of the library would lead me to believe that this would not be a big hit. Many of the patrons visit the library simply to use the internet, most of these people do not have a computer at home. Another large percentage are older folks, who simply want to read their mysteries. We do carry a moderately sized selection of (mostly educational) software, however that circulates very poorly.

Perhaps this could be successful in a smaller library with a more technically aware demographic, however in your average public library, I don't think it would see much success.

Re:Library demographics

[Mr. Tuple]

Yes, but in the right kind of library this *does work*. My local branch (Lakewood, CO) has an entire computer room that can be used by any group, as well as open wireless access to the Internet. So this is a reasonably technical demographic.

Winter '02, I noticed that a substantial portion of people in my library are (smart looking) 8th-11th graders. I went to the library supervisor & offered to sponsor one or both of Linux Magazine and Linux Journal. She asked for a newstand copy of both, *she actually looked at them*, and decided that Linux Magazine was probably the best for her facility. I arranged for a two year subscription & I'll renew it at the end of this year. I've got a job right now (knock,knock) so the cost (for me) is negligable, and if it piques the curiosity of just one person enough to give FOSS/Linux/BSD a whirl, then its a good thing.

I walked in the other day, and actually saw a 17-somethin' kid reading it.

Conclusion: perhaps in your neighborhood its not the library, but somewhere nearby there's a place to promote FOSS/Linux/BSD with just a little effort.

Re:Library demographics

[siriuskase]

IMO, the demographic of the library reflects the neighborhood it is in. My public library is in a rather comfortable suburb. Even well off people use the library, sorta millionaire next door people, I presume. Anyway, it not only has a small Gates cluster in the back (not on internet, it appears to be for people who need or choose to do wordprocessing at the library), a much larger cluster that goes onto the internet and/or the book catalog, and lots of books, DVDs, etc, for checkout.

amongst the books are quite a few of the well known OReilly, Sams, etc, and most of them have a CD inside. While in many cases, the CD only contains examples from the book, the books on such things as Linux have Linux (old version on 3 disks) So to that extent, the libary already has "Free" Software.

Re:Library demographics

[huchida]

Well, first of all, library "demographics" can change. Offer something new, and you will attract a new base of people who will take advantage.

Second, it's not a for-profit business. One of the roles of the library should be to offer esoteric materials to the few who might seek it, not to be another Barnes and Noble that only concentrates on what products are going to move.

Re:Library demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

17-somethin' kid reading it.
Linux Magazine?

Hmmm, why am i not baffled?

[not to single them out, but what socially unaccepted cdeek does not read a Linux mag?]

sorry for being so crass

Re:Library demographics

[jim_deane]

[i]I work in a public library and my experience with the typical demographic of the library would lead me to believe that this would not be a big hit. Many of the patrons visit the library simply to use the internet, most of these people do not have a computer at home. Another large percentage are older folks, who simply want to read their mysteries. We do carry a moderately sized selection of (mostly educational) software, however that circulates very poorly.[/i]

What I've been trying to do is to build and promote our collection of the heavier CS references and beginner's guides. There are a lot of budding programmers (middle/high school) who dont have the resources to drop $400 on books--but the library can afford it.

It's been slow, but hopefully we can get them to do two things:

1. Utilize our resources, and
2. Give us input about what they need us to buy!

We have the money, we want to buy the books, but most of us are [i]not[/i] IT professionals, and those of us [i]with[/i] some IT experience have not been beginners for a very, very long time.

Jim

Re:Library demographics

[jim_deane]

Oh No! Preview death! Stupid BBCode habits... I moderate a PHBB, and the [ is equivalent to < .

Please read those [i] as <i>. Thanks.

Jim

Re: FS in the Lib

[Ted Williams' Frozen]

If the Library caries all the different Linux distros, how long before SCO sues them?

This could end Libraries, the humanity!

Think of the children!

I would think that Open Office would be nice though.

GNUwin

[Slayk]

Most of the stuff is rather old, but it is still good to have around. GNUwin

Obscure learning.

[Anonymous Coward]

Slightly OT, but related. What Smalltalk book would one recommend for inclusion in a public library? Maybe with a CD?

Re:Games!

[betis70]

No kidding! I'll have to check that out. I've never actually even been our library (sadly).

Provide Commercial Alternatives

[nurb432]

My local library for one loans commercial software, so it woudlnt be too far fetched to try it here too.

As far as what, id stick with the following:

1 - run from CD, such as Mepis, or knoppix, or freebsie.. ( give people a choice )
2 - General application replacements for windows.
3 - make your own #2's... with pretty liners for the sleves.. attract attention...
4 - games.. lots of games. its what drives a lot of people these days. FOr both windows and unix..

Just dont over do it.. give people 'cute' stuff to look at.

Vancouver Public Library

[ffa]

this is a great idea...

back in the late 80s, the Vancouver Public Library used to have a station where you could access a CD ROM full of all the Public Domain utilities (rememeber those days? :) for those who did not have a modem and access to a BBS.

You can setup a special PC which has a tool that only burns selected software. We used to take our own 5.25 floppies and copy PD software, so there is no reason people cannot acquire a $0.50 CD and take home goodies.

less maintenenance/cost this way to the library...

-farshad

Re:Vancouver Public Library

[Anonymous Coward]

In Vancouver, WA?

Re:Vancouver Public Library

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course. Because we all know that the Internet doesn't actually extend outside the United States to that other Vancouver that's 4 times the size of the one in Washington.

Re:Vancouver Public Library

[kruhft]

No. Vancouver, BC.

Re:Vancouver Public Library

[Audity]

You know, you wouldn't even need a special tool to burn selected software. Just make sure everything on the pc is free. It's definately not hard to set something like this up these days, esp. with distros out there like Debian.

The downside of course is always maintenance. You'd also need to set up the box so that non-root users don't have access to write to the hard disk (we don't want people throwing MS Office on there and having others pirate it, the library might be held responsible). You'd also someone to watch that no one boots into single-user mode or something like that and changes things around, but I think this maybe isn't so much work that a volunteer couldn't do it.

Re:Vancouver Public Library

[Anonymous Coward]

> No. Vancouver, BC.

They had computers in BC?

Oh wait. I gotta RTFA, it seems that the problem is that they don't have computers in BC.

Re:Vancouver Public Library

[SnapShot]

Okay, so I'm going off topic, but I remember this great little newstand in Wallingford in Seattle, WA that had row after row of Amiga floppy disks filled with freeware and shareware (sold by FredFish or something like that?). This was in the early 90's. If I remember correctly they were $3 apiece. Not free, but still a pretty good bargain and a great deal (about the same price as a ChinaFirst lunch special) for a destitute college student with a five-year old A1000 and no CDROM or modem.

The only reason I bring this up now, is that I remember what it was like to not have access to the latest and greatest computer, but still have access to a thousand different applications. To have a library support the same thing (through a kiosk or checked-out CDs) could be the leg up for the next generation of computer scientists.

Re:Abuse, anyone?

[botzi]

Give man a PC with CD burner + public acces - he may or he may not find a way to abuse it.
Add an internet connection to the above => you're screwed.

Repeat Topic But I'll Chime In Again

[Eberlin]

I work at a city library with machines sponsored by the B&M Gates Learning Foundation. To pimp Free Software may incur the wrath of Redmond for an already underfunded library. We're already a frickin' MS Office infomercial as it is.

I do, however, try to make sure people know and understand the costs of MS Software as well as the benefits of Open Source/Free Software. I recommend OpenOffice for those who don't want to shell out a fortune for word processing. I tell people about Mozilla Firefox and describe the benefits it has.

I also have handouts with links to AVG Anti-Virus, Ad-Aware, and Zone Alarm. Not Open Source but "free as in beer."

To offer CD's could become a support nightmare unless you pull a "Try at your own risk" thing. Last thing a library needs are irate patrons because they borked their machines trying to use/install software YOU supplied.

If you are to do so anyway, go with OSS for Windows, first. OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP. Then maybe the free-as-in-beer stuff I mentioned earlier for antivirus, anti-spyware, and firewalling. Then there's other stuff like Knoppix and bootable game CD's (America's Army?).

In the end, there are quite a few considerations to think about when offering software from a library. You'll have political issues, can lose some private funding/sponsorships, and even have irate patrons who mistake your goodwill for tech-support-for-life.

One of the irritating things I got to hear at the library was that when a student asked about BSODs and rebooting, the rest of the class said that it's a normal thing, and to get used to it. I had to tell them otherwise, and even then, they weren't fully convinced that instability isn't natural.

Hopefully with stuff like free software cd's, and the knoppixes of the world, people will find that there are alternatives to MS. Maybe they'll even see its simplicity, stability, and practicality.

Re:Repeat Topic But I'll Chime In Again

[Anonymous Coward]

At least he's not ignorant.

Re:Two Words

[Omega1045]

Would it get me a Funny if I said: One Word Pr0n ? Just trying to karma whore here...

Re:Games!

[atheken]

As witnessed by you incredible command of the English language.

Work on Koha www.koha.org if you want to help

[abesottedphoenix]

If you want to really help your local public library dig open source, point Koha out to them. With what we pay for an automated library system (it's enough to make you ralph, trust me) Koha is an attractive alternative.

Many libraries still don't have high speed connections since many libraries are rural public libraries like mine. Scarily, we're still a 56k connection type of place. So the CD thing is quite cool. The second reason we would want this is because of those circulation statistics we'd get from checking out the CDs.

Your third roadblock - most directors gradumatated from liberry school about a zillion years ago. Computers are new to them. They shouldn't be, but trust me, most directors are 50-70 year old white guys that haven't gotten sunlight in a billion years.

Re:Work on Koha www.koha.org if you want to help

[daishin]

most directors are 50-70 year old white guys that haven't gotten sunlight in a billion years.

Heh...same for most 17 year old geeks like me.

Re:Work on Koha www.koha.org if you want to help

[DAldredge]

Why don't you use Koha?

Re:Work on Koha www.koha.org if you want to help

[DontHaveAClue]

IT sounds like a great Idea and all. But it just wouldn't fit the needs of modern libraries. Maybe for a very small library with not many patrons. And I think the biggest thing of all would be support. A library who can't afford a commercial automation system probably isn't going to have a tech on staff, and the local tech frolm "Bob's Computer's" isn't going to know jack about the software. If anything happens (corrupt DB, server crash, ...) the library will most likely be down for days if not weeks.

A database

[tmillard]

Why not have a list of all the librarys that are "frendley" to OSS? Or at least have a cd or two that is not more then eight years old, or really badly dammaged. I don't know about places other then the "Good old" USA, that have inter library lone. But if someones got the disk space and connection this would be really cool.

Start with Windows apps

[spiritraveller]

Rather than focusing on Linux itself, I think the best approach to get people using free software is to give them software that works with the operating system they already have.

Most people will switch to free software gradually, not suddenly with a complete operating system replacement.

They may eventually switch to Linux, but that will be much easier for them if they are already using software that can be used under both Linux and Windows.

Therefore, I think the best thing for most people would be a cd filled with easy-to-install Windows versions of programs such as the following:

* OpenOffice 1.1.1
* Mozilla Firefox (web browser)
* Mozilla Thunderbird (email and usenet discussions)
* Mozilla Sunbird (calendar)
* Nvu (based on the old Mozilla Composer web-design app)
* Mozilla Suite 1.6 (for those who prefer it all in one program)
* Pan (usenet binaries)
* gaim (chat client)
* The Gimp (to replace Photoshop

There are Windows binary downloads available for each of these programs...

You might also make a version of this disk for Mac OSX users. But by this, I mean apps that run natively, not through an X server. Fink is great, and you might want to have a disk that lets you install it and some of its packages... but running an X server is a little complex for the average user.

Apps that run natively under OSX that I know of:

* Mozilla Suite 1.6
* Mozilla Camino (a more lightweight browser)
* NeoOffice/J (a version of OpenOffice)

I am sure there are other native OSX FOSS apps... but those are the ones I know of.

Of course there's no reason you can't provide 20 different Linux distributions and the entire contents of Sourceforge... but I would focus on Windows and Mac apps, and Live-CDs so people can get their feet wet with FOSS apps without committing an entire system all at once.

Re:Start with Windows apps

[MrRuslan]

You prolly beat me to posting it cuz i just posted the same thing almost...I agree 100%.

Project Gutenberg CD

[j1m 5n0w]

A cd of Project Gutenberg books would be a reasonable thing for a library to carry. Staring at a screen isn't the best way to read a book, but I've read quite a few that way.

Some of my favorites (Some of which I read in dead tree format, I'm not masochistic enough to read Les Miserables via CRT):

• George MacDonald
  • The Princess and the Goblin
  • Lilith
  • Phantastes
• Victor Hugo
  • The Hunchback of Notre Dame
  • Les Miserables
• Samuel Taylor Coleridge The Rime of the Ancient Mariner
• The Brothers Grimm Grimm's Fairy Tales
• Kenneth Grahame The Wind in the Willows
• Lewis Carroll Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
• The King James Bible (in html)

-jim

Re:Project Gutenberg CD

[Anonymous Coward]

You read the bible from your computer screen? I thought tiny-printed-flimsy-paged paper copies were bad enough...

Re:Project Gutenberg CD

[j1m 5n0w]

no, I just use the html kjv bible for quick reference. I have, however, read The Wind in the Willows, Alice in Wonderland, A journey to the center of the earth, lilith, phantastes, the princess and the goblin, captain Stormfield's visit to heaven, and the rime of the ancient mariner off of my computer screen and it didn't kill me.

-jim

Might want to consider a small purchase price

[Omega1045]

While libraries traditionally work on a lender model, I am thinking that a software disk is something that you are going to want to keep around the house. I would suggest offering CDs at a modest price, like 50 cents a disk. You could also load up a DVD with a ton of free software, for a dollar or two.

Re:Games!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen the DVD's.. The collection is growing to a decent level now.

But, I didn't know they had software. Where is that?

My experience

[Gothic_Walrus]

There's a library five minutes away from my house.

They've had software for a few years, with a decent variety of titles - reference, educational, games for the little kiddies, and so on.

When I walked into the library on Wednesday, however, I noticed a new addition to their collection: "Serious Sam: The Second Encounter."

Finally...now I can blast aliens and save the Earth, and it's only a dollar rental to do it!

Open source windows software

[MrRuslan]

Along with linux and BSD...alot of people who can't afford programs like microsoft office or photoshop and need software don't know what to do...some pirate and some buy crapware...librarys should have cds for free or for a small fee that have Gimp, Open office,Mozilla,Firebird,Filezilla,Putty,emacs,vim, etc... for windows...that would be a great help...this great free reasource should be offered in local librarys for those who are not comfortable with switching platforms and in the future it would easier to change platforms...i mean somone gouse to walmart as an example...they see a linux box...with screen shots of the programs they know and use...much easier than looking at something and saying to yourself...whats that?

A little offtopic, but...

[aardvarkjoe]

What about a CD of the Project Gutenberg works? Seems appropriate for a library.

A list of software collections

[cos(0)]

There are three major collections of OSS software for Windows:

• Open Source Software CD
  
• GNUwin
  
• The Open CD
  

Of the three, I believe the Open Source Software CD is the one updated the most and is the most complete. (Disclaimer: I am its proud maintainer.)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Which library?

[DoraLives]

Cocoa Beach

Give used books too!

[failedlogic]

Don't forget to give your used books that you're no longer reading to your local library. I've given quite a few Linux ones which I hope will be put to good use with others.

Too bad I can't collect some royalties from overdue fines!

Re:Give used books too!

[siriuskase]

Our library won't accept donations of computer books because most were too old. They prefer to buy them and replace them every year or so. They are among the most checked out books in the library and they try to get rid of the out of date ones. Usually the CD is still there when I check them out.

I doubt liability for a CD crashing a computer is any worse than for a tape falling apart and ruining a tape player.

Documentation

[Vegard]

We, Bergen Linux User Group, are going to do exactly this. What we'll end up with, is Mandrake (because of it's beginner-friendliness), Knoppix (obvious), Debian and FreeBSD, plus OpenOffice I guess.

But, equally important is information for the librarians. We're writing some short information about the distributions, with recommendations about which one they'll recommend. Mostly, I guess they should recommend Mandrake or Knoppix, but provide others on request.

Second, on the CD labels we'll provide an email-adress with a local support-email-adress, provided by us. I don't envision there to be THAT much demand that this will become unmanageable, if it does I guess it's perhaps even a plus :)

The third thing is that we provide a list of books that we think they should carry. Mostly, they'll do this, the reason they don't, is that they simply don't know what's useful.

There was also a Linux Folder project that I saw on freshmeat the other day. We'll most likely translate this into norwegian and provide it to the library.

internet

[Vincman]

Isn't the current distribution-model via the internet much more efficient then some dusty old cd in a library? Of course a counter-argument would be that not everyone is connected. In that case a burning-station would be a good idea, I guess.

Free software

[Pompatus]

I worked in a small town library in high school (about 10 years ago). We had software in the back that wasn't in circulation because of the fear of lawsuits about copying. I said that was rediculous, because people could photocopy books, plus we had tons of movies available for checkout. It wasn't my decision though, so the software sat there collecting dust.

I personally think the local library should carry ALL software. It's copyrighted the same as books. How about tax software? People only need it once a year. Checking it out for a week and returning it makes sense. Think about how many programs you only need maybe once or twice a year. Partition Magic comes to mind. Almost all games get boring after a couple of weeks.

Of course software companies would have a fit about this because they percieve lost profits. I think most people that would check out software from a library would go without before buying it.

The real solution to the problem is open source software. I personall think linux is almost ready for the desktop for the average user. Hell, the evolution email client alone makes me want to switch (I'm dual booting now, mainly because my sound drivers play volume at 1/3 of the windows drivers and my USB flash keychain thingy doesn't work properly under linux. I'm running mandrake 10 with asus a7v8x-x mobo. any ideas?? :).

But I'm getting offtopic. Libraries should have ALL software available for checkout, just as they have all other forms of media. Thank god libraries have existed for as long as they have in this country, because if they were suggested today, they would get vetoed by book, magazine, movie, music, and software publishers because of a percieved loss in profit. Think of all of the brilliant people throughout history that were not rich enough to have their own vast collection of books.

Re:Free software

[localhost00]

There is an inherent problem with a Library having all software available for checkout.

If a program that is not free is available, a user can check it out, have it home, burn a duplicate CD and have the CD back at the library the same day.

Books on the other hand, would be practically impossible to duplicate in the time the library allows you to have it in your possession.

Basically, it is not cost-effective to copy a book, which is why books that would otherwise cost you some $$$ can be available at a library.

Re:Free software

[zpok]

Um, I like the notion, but to be completely honest: I'd copy.

Yes I would.

And so would everybody I know. I'm pretty sure.

I'm actually very conservative about this, I think I have about 4 copied CD's in a total collection of 300+ CD's and 400+ records, but still...

I know I would do it because where I lived a year ago, I could buy pirated software for $4 as opposed to twice or trice the market price in the US, and guess what, I bought the pirates.

It's a shame, really, I won't waste your time with excuses, but the bottom line is: Software firm fears are grounded.

I'm not waving a flag for proprietary, afaic everything should be free, but as long as it isn't I don't expect programmers or musicians to turn into revolutionaries just because I'm too lame to pay for other people's work.

Re:Free software

[Simonetta]

Many big city libraries bought lots of CD ROM titles for major expenditure during the first wave of CD software in the early to mid 1990's. Very little of it got actually checked out or used. The libraries probably won't be buying much more software for circulation again.

I do occasionly see CDs in books on the shelves, for example, in the travel section of the local surburban library there is a set of six CDs that have the detailed topographic maps of the entire United States (except Alaska and Hawaii). And what few computer books that get bought will have their CDs included.

The argument that publishers would be totally against having libraries circulate their products for free is balanced by the reality that libraries actually buy a large percentage of the stuff that gets published. A first novel by an unknown but talented writer might sell a few thousand copies on the basis of book tours and positive reviews. But if the good reviews in prestigous literary magazines leads 50,000 libraries each to purchase one copy, then the publishers overlook the supposed loss of revenue from having twenty people read the book from the library. It's a symbotic relationship that has been acknowledged by intelligent book publishers since Ben Franklin opened the first public library in America (before it became the USA).

Software publishers, however, are mostly climbing the up-side of the Bell Curve and see any possible loss of a full retail sale as a theft. It would be difficult if not impossible to come to mutually beneficial arrangement for creative distribution of software and compensation with these guys.

Basically, it's a class issue. What kind of people have it and what kind don't.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

CD-ROM next to CD?

[Obfuscant]

I would not expect to find software CD-ROMs on a rack next to music CDs. They aren't the same kind of thing at all.

Perhaps get them a subscription to Linux Format magazine in the DVD edition, with an available DVD reader and CD writer somewhere nearby.

None

[Breakerofthings]

Distributing OSS software (maybe software in general) via CD is lame. In my experience, by the time you get a CD, half of its contents are out of date.

My first Linux distro was a store-bought, shrink-wrapped copy of RedHat. I was hip deep into it before I realized it was a couple of versions old ... Don't most libraries nowadays have internet access? Maybe broadband? (if not, they should ... but that is a different rant)

So how tough would it be for a library to set up a mirror of the ISOs for linux/bsd/etc. distros, and a directory of tarballs for packages?

Then all you need is a few cd burners, and you are all set ... strapped for cash? Make 'em provide their own blanks ... (cd burners are cheap nowadays)

Strapped for the storage space? How about just an index, a starting point for the uninitiated, that will point them to the projects' sites where they can download the ISOs, RPMs, DEBs, etc. that they want. (Cache 'em with squid, maybe).

Now, the library doesn't have to worry about the CDs being returned, or being damaged (or getting 'stale').

My point is, (and I am truly not trying to pick on anyone here) that the mindset of someone asking this question is a bit askew; they are overlooking the Internet! Now I am a dead tree lover; obsessed, really. But I realize that dead trees are no longer the best way to distribute information in all cases ... particularly information that is prone to becoming dated quickly.
All you are really interested in is getting folks information here, right? just the bits ... my claim is that the best way to do that is give it to em from the source; fresh, hot, up-to-date, and maybe they will learn something from that experience (like where to go to *get* FOSS!

The library should focus on helping people find that information ... hence my suggestion for a link page ... a jumping off point, or directory of sorts. Perhaps local cached copies of n00b-appropriate distros, maybe even a few pre-burnt CDs to cut down on the wait time (Knoppix would be an excellent choice for this)

One last point to beat the proverbial dead horse ...
If the library has broadband internet access, where a user can download debian, for example, and a little help finding it for the newcomers ... and the ability to make a cd of what they want ...what value does shelving copies add to the transaction?

Re:None

[Obfuscant]

In my experience, by the time you get a CD, half of its contents are out of date.

Not everyone wants the bleeding edge of free software. I spend way too much time trying to determine what has changed every time I change to a new distribution, and if something doesn't work on a new install with a new distro, I'm stuck trying to debug two different things at the same time.

Example: brand new system which is just like one I already loaded up. Tried Fedora Core 1 instead of RH7.3. No net, no audio. Was the problem Fedora or the PC? Dinked with Fedora Core 1 (which didn't have anyplace in the install to set the network address, but it did have someplace to set up an NTP client, which wouldn't work because the net didn't work!) but no joy. Must be Fedora! Installed RH7.3. Still no joy. Must be PC! (Was failure to set "Plug and Play OS" to "NO" in the BIOS.)

So, stable is good. Bleeding edge is fun for smart people, but about all you accomplish is debugging bleeding edge stuff. By the time you've done that, the edge has moved and you are off into new territory again. For people who get their code at the library, two revisions out of date is stable enough to be useful.

Re:None

[Breakerofthings]

I am not talking about "bleeding edge" here. I am not suggesting we saddle newbies with "unstable" or "testing" branches of Debian, for example. I am talking about making sure that they get the latest stable release of . In my experience, getting the latest stable distro will provide the best new user experience, because
a) more stuff will likely work b) at least the known bugs are squashed
Put shrink wrapped copies on the shelf, and in a year, patrons (newbies included) will be getting software that is old ... what if someone went in today, and checked out a copy of Redhat 6 ... do you really think that that would provide them with the best overall experience?
Mind you, first impressions matter; and you never know who might make use of those facilities, and be making decisions regarding the adoption of Linux/FreeBSD/other FOSS of your choice at some org somewhere down the road...

Hopefully, when a potential user/adopter/contributer borrows a FOSS distro of some sort from a library, they will get the best possible experience, so that they develop the most relevant opinions, realistic expectations, and accurate perceptions regarding the community and its products.

Uh - tell mr librarian

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell your librarian to visit www.download.com

Re:Uh - tell mr librarian

[SeregonSandgrain]

Does any of that run on win32s? My library has the good computers, running win 3.1 with Netscape 2 or 3, and the dumb terminals so old they don't support colour. Broadband? *laughs* If you're getting .5kb/s downloads at the library your doing really good.

The old fashioned way?

[djupedal]

Well, I don't know of another place where I can get books for free, do you?

Write them.

Give used books too!-Missing CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

There's one problem I've noticed in most public libraries. How many times have you checked out a book and found the CD was missing?

Why not build some linux boxen and give them

[Anonymous Coward]

to the library? An easy way to bring linux to the masses. No? You'd rather sit around all day masturbating to Anime and getting fatter? That's next level in Quake is just to engrossing to get off your lazy, fat, pimpled, never left your parents basement and live up to your commie ideals? Eh, go back to whatever your unemployed, got your job outsourced nerds are spouting about on slashdot these days. That's a paddlin!

Re: music copying for a long time

[xtermin8]

Back in the 80's a friend of mine copied dozens of non-classical albums and probably dozens of tapes borrowed from the library. It seemed funny that it was so easy to do, although it required quite an investment of time. More innocent times, I guess

Re:Games!

[WebMasterP]

Ok, isn't there some rule that says if you're going to make fun of someone's typo and call it an English mistake, you have to TYPE PROPER ENGLISH YOURSELF.

You know, you might be able to check out a book on irony at your local library.

Some Titles

[Ivan the Terrible]

* Various Dr. Dobbs CDs like The World Wide Web Toolkit, the Algorithms compilation, etc.
* C/C++ Users Journal CDs
* Software Practice & Experience(1971 - 1980) (very expensive)
* Plan 9
* Solaris 8 Source Foundation Release
* Red Hat Fedora Core 1 with Updates
* The Single UNIX spec v3

Hope this helps...

[atomic-penguin]

Solution as I see it. Set up a local mirror in your library. Have it mirror ibiblio.org (formerly known as metalab, formerly known as sunsite) public ftp. You may also want to mirror distro.ibiblio.org for free operating systems (This should cover most useful public software).

Set up a terminal that only has access to the local mirror, not the whole net. You could use a SaMBa share or NFS. Don't let user's copy cd images onto the hard drive (to prevent software piracy). Have the CD burner, burn images directly off of the network share of your local mirror.

Sell blanks for a reasonable price. May not be a perfect solution, but it's a start. You could probably do all of this with a $1,000 investment. Inclusive of the Mirror (a middleweight server) and CD-Burning station (lower-end machine equipped with a CD-Burner). I don't know what kind of machinery/connection your library has...ymmv.

Re:Hope this helps...

[DontHaveAClue]

Sounds good, but I have talked to many librarians / catalogers who run their software on 486s and Win 98 , because they would rather spend the money on books that the majority of their patrons would use.

a few suggestions

[zogger]

Any disk with some normal windows enhancing tools/utilities. It needs to have zone alarm, ad aware, antivir, mozilla suite and open office for starters. I got one (similar to list) for making my give-away freebie boxes at least marginally better.

I'm not much of a windows guy, anyone else with good stuff that might flesh out a disk?

Besides that, user friendly distros, one of each would be nice.

That actually would be nice at the library, a dedicated computer that was setup to burn free software to a disk, they could charge like a dollar a cd or something, Not even have a keyboard, just a mouse, you click on your selections and it's burned to order.

I get this done at my local whitebox dude's (real young but savvy kid), he's a nice enough guy, with a broadband connect, he burns me stuff when I ask him, I shoot him a couple ~ three bucks a disk for that service. BTW, he puts zone alarm and open office on the new XP boxes that go out his door as a matter of course. His latest favorite to fool around with last I talked to him was the knoppix security release.

opencd anyone?

[seringen]

For more information, check out www.theopencd.org

Software for slow computers

[MrRuslan]

Some open source oses that would breath some new life into old computers to make them usefull again....like a patched up version of redhat 6.2> ...perhaps some customized distro that would run on a 486 with 8 mb of ram with no problem.

Re:Software for slow computers

[zogger]

--we had a big discussion about this just last week, I got some good leads, vectorlinux looked the best to me so far/matter of opinion, I haven't tried any of them so far. Another one called rule linux looked good too. I'm trying to find a good gui linux for much older comoputers as well, and the thread/article was aboutMS setting up with refurb people in the third world with copies of older windows OS on old boxes. Lead me to ask (well, I rant really %^) )is there anything like 95 that would work on antiques, got those responses. 8 megs ram is pushing it, from what I saw 32 is a realisitc bottom limit, although some claim 16. That's what "they" say though. I personally have never gotten a distro to install on less than 64 worth a darn,if at all, but I've only tried a handful too, all mostly newer ones, oldest I ever ran isn't that old, RH 7.1.

Re:OK then

[The Bungi]

Ahhh, troll. Yes, that was fast.

Let's see, I'll try another approach. I will not agree to further the wet dreams of crackpots like RMS by subsidizing distribution of software that is not absolutely free and in the public domain through the public library system, which I also pay for. This includes anything that is licensed under the GPL, BSD, MIT, X11, etc.

Now that sounds more like a troll, but it means exactly the same thing.

FileZilla as an alternative to cuteFTP

[issachar]

FileZilla is one I just started using. I'd formally been using cuteFTP and WS_FTP. FileZilla is easy to use for people who have been exposed to these programs before.

Just don't make the mistake of listing only Linux software. Most people still use Windows and there's more to OpenSource than just Linux. Windows users should get exposed to the concept as well.

THeOpenCD?

[bubkus_jones]

The Open CD Good choice of software, Open Office, Gimp, Mozilla, some screensavers, games,

gaim?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, Miranda is way better. Even if it doesn't play nice with Tux.

MY library

[LordHatrus]

My library has RedHat Install disks and install disks for some other linux... but they are REALLY old versions, and my library only has them because they have books like "RedHat Linux for Dummies" and "Corel Linux in 10 days" and stuff like that, and the books happen to have the install disks in the back. (Upon looking, a CD was missing from one of them, and I actually burned a new copy and placed it in the book... though I would never take out a book as noobish as that,dont worry :) )

Windows Update

[Student_Tech]

Microsoft offers Windows Update CDs every few months for free from them. Perhaps get a few, http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/cd/order .asp

Of course if everyone using the library has broadband it might be kinda mute, but it would be useful for everyone else.

Re:Windows Update

[Crash6-24]

Having Windows patches available at the library might be nice. Display them prominently to show how inherently buggy the Windows design is. Then explain that Linux "just isn't that way."

Re:Has anyone noticed?

[djupedal]

What do you mean?

Dead....gone.....useless...like the corpse of a maggot-ridden woodchuck, laying under the front porch on a hot Alabama afternoon, with nothing left but a faint smell and a few hanks of brittle brown fur - An X-Library.

Lifeless...much like your argument, since the basis of all information is in the minds of men, and not on the shelves in the Library of Congress. This is a format war, not a content debate, and the books of the Han Dynasty, Gutenberg and Archibald Press are all digital now. Paper is just something to wipe your ass with....not a container in a temple.

A better idea than providing software for check-ou

[LS]

software (especially free software) isn't in the same vein as a book or a movie. It isn't physical, and it isn't a single item that needs to be shared by a number of people. Also, it changes regularly, so anything the library stocks will be soon out of date.

A better idea: provide a way for those users without reasonable net access at home to burn a copy at the library. They could buy a blank CD for 25 cents from the library, then sit at a terminal and burn the software they want.

The interface to this would be important. The system could be a wizard-based searchable index of software, categorized by platform, distribution, and software type. The index would have simple descriptions that a typical user could understand. They could select the software they want, or pick a predefined "packs", like "graphics software" or "office software", and then click "go". The system would then download any software that isn't cached, create an autostart index file with instructions on installation and getting started with the chosen software, then burn to CD, and maybe print out the instructions as well.

As for installing free/open OSes on the PCs - I would be wary of this. People are familar with the Windows interface, and there are too many Linux desktops to choose from - a standard linux desktop hasn't arrived yet. Also, people will be upset with the 10% (plus or minus) of the documents that don't format properly in Open Office. Perhaps using something like CoLinux to run Linux apps on a Windows machine would be an appropriate compromise.

LS

The greartest browser in the world...

[Foofoobar]

Mozilla!!

GNU Emacs sources at UT-Austin

[Anonymous Coward]

I once walked into the library at UT, circa 1988,and asked the librarian where I could find a copy of the GNU Emacs sources. I wanted to look at the implementation of regular expression matching. She was surprised at the request; the library didn't have a copy. We spent a half-hour talking, and when I left she was planning a new acquisition...

potential problem

[wk633]

I used to work as a sysadmin at a library. A co-worker wanted to donate several copies of FreeBSD he had. The problem the library had was that they had a boilerplate policy for all software CDs that said you promised to uninstall it when you returned the CD, not to copy it, etc etc. Free software didn't fit into the boilerplate library policy, so they weren't quite sure what to do. They wanted to get it out, but were worried about deailng with multiple circulation policies.

Re:potential problem

[Anonymous Coward]

It may not be practical in the case you are mentioning, but couldn't they easily distinguish between the two by giving away the free CDs, but only allow borrowing the other CDs? This isn't really two circulation policies; the free software is donated, not circulated.

Burn from ISOs only

[Fibonacci Ceres]

>>"Why not just set up a PC with a burner,
>>post instructions and allow people to burn
>>to their own CDs?"

>That would let people come in and make
>copies of the non-free stuff.

Set up a box restricted to burning from ISO
files only. Provide a simple click'n'burn
interface and a laminated card next to the
PC that would explain the different distros,
number of disks needed, hardware needed and pointers to paper references both in and
outside the library.
The library could provide CDRs at a small
profit to pay for upkeep on the system and
to buy more paper references. This would be
a great thing for a local Linux User Group to sponsor. It would create much greater public awareness of the local group, GNU/Linux and
the Open Source movement.
And no drone from Redmond (or anywhere else)
could complain about software piracy.

There's a .sig around here somewhere

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[s20451]

The library could provide CDRs at a small
profit to pay for upkeep on the system and
to buy more paper references.

I'm going to nitpick. Apparently you're not familiar with the concept of a lending library?

I'm as much of a capitalist as the next guy. But the point to lending libraries is that they are free, as in beer. So all you need to borrow anything is your library card, and zero dollars. Just borrow the CD, install on your system, and bring it back.

Lending copies and providing a cost-recovery burner are not mutually exclusive ideas. I just wouldn't want the latter without the former.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[westlake]

There are problems here:

1 Mac and Windows users will want download privileges and access to a burner as well. That I can guarantee, particularly if the library has the only free public access broadband connection in town.

2 A public library may not be willing or able to accept restricted donations, privately maintained kiosks, etc, especially if has has to pay for the bandwidth, documentation, maintenance, insurance, etc., needed out of it's general funds. Imagine the response of your local LUG if Microsoft took up the same plan, but with $60 billion in cash to back it up.

3 This isn't a trivial commitment for your local Linux Users Group or one that it can easily back out of gracefully.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[David_W]

I'm as much of a capitalist as the next guy. But the point to lending libraries is that they are free, as in beer. So all you need to borrow anything is your library card, and zero dollars. Just borrow the CD, install on your system, and bring it back.

Not that I disagree, but do keep in mind there are already things you can't borrow from the library. Usually reserve items can't be taken out. You have to read (watch, listen, etc.) them there or make copies. That being said, there should be no objections to bringing your own blanks. It would be nice if they let you take the CDs themselves out, but not unheard of if they didn't.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[Fibonacci Ceres]

I think you've misunderstood my suggestion.
Assuming that the local library will agree
to host the machine and provided electricity,
no 'net connection of any kind is needed.
The ISOs are stored on a large HD and updated
at most monthly by a member of the LUG. The
library's staff need not be involved beyond
pointing out the kiosk, providing help in
finding GNU/Linux library materials and
selling blank media to the interested public
in such a manner that they recoup any cost of
hosting the machine. The LUG can donate the
machine to the library and have one or more of
its members write the interface and provided
maintenance and updates as needed.
Note that this does not preclude the same
library from lending copies of Knoppix, Debian,
Mandrake and Fedora just as they do CDs of
everything from Bach to Barry Manilow.
The point is that many more distros can be
hosted on the machine than the library is
likely to want to keep track of as part of
its standard lending service.
The cost to the LUG is that of the machine,
continued administration and perhaps written materials or paper disc sleeves with the LUG's
name and contact information prominently
stamped on each one.
Having a library hosted machine or kiosk will
(Free Software! - See reference desk)
create far more interest than simply placing
donating a few copies which people will likely
bypass on their way to something else. This
is about GNU/Linux outreach for people who
have heard little or nothing about alternatives
to the dominant OS and weren't looking for it
when they arrived to return the John Grisham
novel they borrowed two weeks ago.
My take on human nature is that Joe Sixpack is
more likely to buy a CDR to get "free" software
than he is to borrow (at no cost) something he knows nothing about. YMMV.

There's a .sig around here somewhere...

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[Anonymous Coward]

Give any person in need blank CDRW and treat it as an item that should be returned letting them to burn whatever they want to it.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[tokabola]

At many libraries you can download files but most don't have CD burners.

If a LUG were to set up a Kiosk, it should probably have some sort of "Kiosk" software. In other words, it would have a GUI that won't close and only lets you do certain things (ie burn CDs of "allowed" files. Heck, you can even do this on a Window$ box.

ISO files are generic, in other words, a Linux (or Window$) box can burn an ISO for a Mac, etc. I first got Linux by downloading ISOs under Window$.

This is a fantastic idea!

The only problem is "selling" free software. I work at an office supply store (big chain) and I see people looking at M$ Office and cringing at the $399 (US) price. They ask if Word 2003 is available by itself. I ask them if they would like to be able to use and create Word documents without spending hundreds of dollers. They say yes and smile. They ask "How much does it cost?"

I say "it's free!"

They say "Nevermind."

If I slid them a disc and said it was a "bootleg copy of Open Office" they would hug me.

To many people still equate Cost with Value.

Tommy

Open Source for Open Minds

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[ibbey]

I'm as much of a capitalist as the next guy. But the point to lending libraries is that they are free, as in beer. So all you need to borrow anything is your library card, and zero dollars. Just borrow the CD, install on your system, and bring it back.

This is a great idea, but not a realistic one. Sure you can (and should) have a few distros in the lending library, but the point of this system is that you can have several distributions, as well as other things such as Open Office for Windows, GIMP for Windows, etc. Trying to keep lending copies of all of these things in stock is silly-- libraries will either have only one or two copies of everything, meaning that things will be checked out all the time, or they'll have several copies, but they'll always be so out of date that there useless. Charging someone $.50 for a blank CD is a perfectly reasonable compromise. As someone else already pointed out, not everything in the library is free.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[westlake]

I distrust on principle the idea tempting users who have never re-formatted or partitioned their primary hard drive, have no no understanding of what that implies, to install some randomly chosen Linux distribution.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was a teen, I actually used the internet shell account provided by "South East Florida Library Information Network" (SEFLIN) to get online (it was free and times were strange).

I had reformatted and partitioned my h.d., &c. I probably would have gotten linux a year early if the library had had a copy. (Couldn't very well download it, and I had no credit card for cheapbytes or the like. Plus, there weren't as many legit-looking vendors as nowadays, I guess.)

While this may seem pathetic or amusing, it's worthwhile to keep in mind that there are sometimes good reasons to simply make information (of any type) freely available.

And as far as the original post, as a FL native, I am surprised that anyone would still expect even base-line technological sophistication here (at least in the public sphere :). The Space Coast reference is there to pander to /.; FL is mostly a backwards hellhole with a few shiny exceptions.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[westlake]

allow me to have another go at this, after hitting the Submit button by mistake...

Your library patron will have no understanding of what it means to re-format or partition their primary hard drive. This isn't a supervised installfest but an invitation to disaster.

Remember you haven't limited yourself to "safe" Live CD distros like Knoppix. It is precisely because enthusiasm so easily overrides common sense that librarians veto such projects before they are begun.

There is no lonelier desk at our own village library than the one with Mac. No one of any age takes the slightest interest in the poor little thing. To be perfectly truthful, your Linux kiosk --- likely not half so stylish or muscular as the wolf-gray Dells and so much more like the systems the kids use at home --- wouldn't draw flies.

If you want to introduce users to F/OSS begin with Windows, because that is where they live.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[Anonymous Coward]

It should be pointed out that the idea was not restricted to providing only Linux operating system distributions, but copies of free software altogether, for those not fortunate enough to get 3 meg down to their homes. The library patron would also have the option to burn miscellaneous software and source code, like OpenOffice and the GIMP, for example. And for completeness, these titles would be available for Windows as well, so that one could ease into the idea of free software and open source, without having to "re-format or partition their primary hard drive". This allows them to "begin with Windows, because that is where they live".

I think that this whole thing is a great idea. I would definitely support and perhaps even lead a project like this in my home town.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[juhaz]

I'm going to nitpick. Apparently you're not familiar with the concept of a lending library?

Apparently you're not familiar with the fact that libraries already charge for photocopying, for example?

But the point to lending libraries is that they are free, as in beer. So all you need to borrow anything is your library card, and zero dollars. Just borrow the CD, install on your system, and bring it back.

Lending makes sense for books, they're expensive. But a $0.50 cd? Nope, can't see it.

Besides, as others have pointed out, lending burned cd's has serious security implications, nothing prevents someone from lending it and bringing back something that looks same but isn't.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[asit ler]

This is a good idea, in principle, but the execution could use a little work.

It could be done very simply with a Linux/KDE-3.2.0 box, implementing the KiosK framework to repeat a presentation upon pressing a predefined key on the keyboard, with a screensaver that indicates what key to press. The presentation would describe the benifits of OSS, the options available, and the use of a prebuilt interface (you could create a simple interface like the project selection option in k3b 0.11.1, by default in the lower left corner of the window on startup) to select the OSS software they wanted to burn. They either bring their own blank CD-Rs or buy one (at a cost) from the library, and bring a case or buy a sleeve at the desk, and insert case into the CD-RW drive's slot, and have complimentary (or cheap) coffee/donuts for their use of the OSSKIOSK.

This software would be comparatively simple to write (compared to a new GUI that wouldn't use the kiosk framework, which is quite decently documented) and would accomplish the purpose.

My concern is people abusing the system to subvert it.
http://www.suprnova.org/
It wouldn't have to have network connectivity, let alone be a blazingly speedy box. The LUG could sponsor the CD-Rs at a significantly dropped cost compared to normal.

It could work. I should talk to my library about this. Thanks for the suggestion.

Re:Burn from ISOs only

[asit ler]

I have no clue how that suprnova statement made it in there. No clue whatsoever.

Windows patches?

[omicronish]

Does anyone know if it would be legal to make a CD full of Windows patches and service packs? Such a CD would be incredibly useful for me, and perhaps other people. Someone could write a nice pamphlet on how to protect your computer, and provide a simple installation program for installing necessary patches from the CD.

It'd be like one of those health pamphlets, such as "how to protect yourself against skin cancer", but geared towards protecting Windows computers.

Replacements for commonly-exploited parts of Windows could also be included, such as Firefox, and as a bonus, MiKTex and a tutorial can be included to free college students from the grasps of Microsoft Equation Editor ;)

Re:Windows patches?

[Suppafly]

I've got one of those.. you can get them from microsoft for free sometimes. You can also sign up to get them on a regular basis for a small fee as well.

Re:Windows patches?

[zakezuke]

Does anyone know if it would be legal to make a CD full of Windows patches and service packs? Such a CD would be incredibly useful for me, and perhaps other people. Someone could write a nice pamphlet on how to protect your computer, and provide a simple installation program for installing necessary patches from the CD.

You'd have to talk to Microsoft about the subject. What you're doing is thoughtful, practical, and would have some major value esp for people who buy new systems who are told to download service packs to prevent virus infection, and get a virus infection the moment they connect to the net. Given they distribute their own CD rom with service packs on it, it would be a tough call.
While you can download it from their site that doesn't give you the right to distribute it your self.

Replacements for commonly-exploited parts of Windows could also be included, such as Firefox, and as a bonus, MiKTex and a tutorial can be included to free college students from the grasps of Microsoft Equation Editor

Here is where Microsoft would likely object. If you could get permision to distribute services patches it's a whole new ball of wax if you are actually reccomending replacing their products with 3rd party software on the same disk. While the software is easily downloadable, the moment you put it on a disk with Microsoft software you are subject to their terms and conditions.

What you're talking about is a good idea, but in order to avoid the microsoft terms and conditions it might be wise to have the patches and such on seperate bundles.

Re:Windows patches?

[kryptkpr]

Order the Windows Security Update CD

The Windows Security Update CD will be shipped to you free of charge. This CD includes Microsoft critical updates released through October 2003 and information to help you protect your PC. In addition, you will also receive a free antivirus and firewall trial software CD.

This CD is only available for Windows XP, Windows Me, Windows 2000, Windows 98, and Windows 98 Second Edition (SE).

Free shipping too.

Most important software for every library

[Pan T. Hose]

I am sure that before I have finished writing this comment many people will have already suggested GNUWin, TheOpenCD, Knoppix, Morphix, Dyne:bolic, Debian and GNU CDs but instead of jumping on the bandwagon and posting links to them (even though with no doubt those are great examples of software which every library should definitely have) I will suggest including some software which is less popular but which students might learn much more from (and in the end, is that not the whole purpose of a library?), id est: Debian GNU/Hurd, OpenBSD and EROS. Lots of useful software one can buy with a magazine, but these systems are much harder to find, while much more revolutionary and unquestionably invaluable if we want people to actually learn something important instead of only "clicking" the mouse. It is also very important to note that these systems would introduce students to real security, something which is hard to find and understand, yet even much harder to overestimate in the terrorism era and the invasion of our privacy with things like NSAKEY in Windows and NSAttributedString in Mac OS X. That is why I think that actively promoting them in every library would be the most insightful idea.

Project Gutenberg

[Anonymous Coward]

Project Gutenberg CDs would also make a good addition.

Just contribute disks of everything recent.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Slightly separate issue:

If you contribute disks, rather than giving them a list of things for the library to acquire, they're very likely to make them available.

Commercial distributions are nice. But given that it's free software you could download and burn the disks yourself.

If you do provide homeburned disks, be sure to clearly mark the disks with what they contain (leaving space for a library marking, too) and provide a hardcopy of the license with each - preferably as a jewelcase insert - so the librarian can be confident that such copies are legit.

(Getting one of the CD labeling kits and printing up a pretty label will also make 'em look more professional, increasing the librarian comfort level.)

Project Gutenberg

[np_bernstein]

I would thing that the best thing a library could have is a copy, be it a mirror, dvd, cd, of Project Gutenberg. That way, if a book is out, or if you're looking for a specific quote, etc... you could either take the text file home, copy the cd, or print out the book.

You are right

[Pan T. Hose]

Most library users are windows users...

You are right, this is probably the first we should change. I would suggest Debian GNU/Linux for starters and Debian GNU/Hurd for people willing to experiment and learn more. Next steps, as I have already mentioned, could be EROS and OpenBSD for systems less popular but extremely reliable and secure. I wonder which operating systems would other Slashdotters suggest.

Re:You are right

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right, this is probably the first (thing) we should change.

Public libraries are not in the business of forcing change on their patrons. You need to be realistic. A Windows CD might actually make it out the door.

Re:You are right

[centralizati0n]

How many of the standard library users can install an OS on their own? What if they erase their entire disk?

I didn't check if anyone else had written these...

[Anonymous Coward]

DEFINITE SOFTWARE TO CONSIDER:

Some basics for starters, knoppix as you said, maybe SUSE live or something.

AVG/Antivir and Kerio or Sygate firewalls on a disk labled "security software" would be a necessity...

Maybe some media players like quintessential player, itunes or something, to get people away from M$ media player version 4... or better yet, K-Lite Mega Codec Pack! It's perfect, because it's a big download, comes with a media player, real player, divx codecs and everything. That and burnatonce for burning CDs.

Openoffice. That's a given for anyone without fast or any internet to get on CD.

Other than that it's up to you. Maybe a finance program or Mozilla or something.

Hope I could help, and that you didn't mean open source, but just free, because there are probably alot of people out there who don't have antivirus, and I'm hard pressed to find open source AV (for windows)... :-)

gave Project Gutenberg to FL school

[Doug Merritt]

I would thing that the best thing a library could have is a copy, be it a mirror, dvd, cd, of Project Gutenberg

I actually did do that, I made a multi-CD copy of the entirety of Project Gutenberg and gave it to my sister, a schoolteacher in central Florida, for her gifted classes, and a copy to give to her friend, who's a librarian in that area.

It was a very novel notion to them, so I don't know that it ended up getting used (I'm too many thousands of miles away to check), but I gave it a shot...

Re:Games!

[UserGoogol]

The Grammer Rule. Whenever you correct someone's spelling or grammar, you will make a mistake yourself. And if you try to spell Grammar, you'll probably spell it grammer.

Abandonware.

[huchida]

Wishful thinking, but it would be nice to have abandonware applications, OS and even games available at the local library. I could see tremendous advantage, for instance, to let a low-income family with a hand-me-down Windows 3.1 computer or ancient Mac have access to a free, full suite of outdated but still useful programs.

security? trojaned installs? hello?

[Anonymous Coward]

didnt think this one through did we

Adelaide Hills Library (S Aust) -finally- got it!

[ivi]

Here's what happened when we tried to get a copy of "BERKS 6" purchased by & for borrowers of the local (Sterling) Public Library:

First, BERKS 6 (there may be a '7 by now, FAIK) is:

A set of 4 CD-ROMs - full of tutorials on IT, programming, etc -and- Open Source Software - and the whole set costing under Au$ 20.00 + post made the deal very good value, indeed.

So, I suggested that the Stirling library, (one of the lib's in the Adel Hills Council area) buy & shelve a set or two for borrowing.

The answer came back NO.

After a bit of negotiation, including a calm but assertive education process on Open Source Software, they finally agreed to pass on my
suggestion to their "central buying organisation"

(I'm not sure if it saves us any money on item-cost, but they very likely do any IP-related checking, to see if it's an item licensed for library holding/loaning, so it may save us court & legal costs in the long run...)

After a while in their queue, a few copies of the 4-disk sets were purchased - one for each of several libraries in the system.

I was eventually notified that a BERKS 6 set was available at the Stirling library.

UNFORTUNATELY, the CD-ROM set was on the REFERENCE shelf, ie -not- available for home borrowing... apparently due to the risk that a borrower could copy the disks.

In fact, the library had rung or eMailed someone in the UK-based BERKS publisher, to see if they intended the CD-ROM's to be loanable by libraries.

They -thought- they were told that this was not desired, hence their confinement on the REFERENCE
SHELF.

I had to eMail the same UK-publishers, as well as a US-based distributor with the above part of the story of my ordeal so far. (I got the impression that the US folks may have helped bring the UK-publishers around to a position that got them to eMail the library & me, to say something like: "Sure, it's OK with us to loan out these CD-ROMs, since - otherwise - you'd have to supply a computer that users could install the OSS programs onto...)

[Change of line-length due to laziness on my part...
Hey /. if you don't like short lines, why not ignore and/or ... Or at least make your text box wide enough to encourage longer than threshhold comment lines, so we never have to waste human time "lenthening" lines...?

Now, back to our reguarly scheduled comment, already in progress ;-) ]

Soon after the eMail was verified by
the library, the disks became available
for home borrowing, at each of the
libraries that had received copies...

Now, I just want to say: I wasn't all
"sugar & spice" while negotiating with
the various levels of staff in the
library system.

I called a spade a spade (eg told them
that they were making a dumb decision,
based on ignorance about something that
libraries had a responsibility to learn
about - namely, Open Source publications
& software) & insisted that we in borrow-
er land had every right to see OSS items
in libraries & even copy any programs
licensed, eg, under the GPL.

Consider:

We're changing traditions at a time when
the media is full of RIAA hype & stories
about ISP's cutting off accounts of the
folks who share music & other IP online.

So, it's natural that libraries would be
scared & want to really do their homework
before putting their budget on the line.

On the other hand, since there's likely a high-energy proponent in their ear now - ie telling about the risks of allowing folks to copy others' IP, they -need- an equally high-energy (and -not- a meek & mild) response to help them think clearly about the other side's equally valid arguments.

They push, we gotta push... We know our rights, the license conditions of the items we want on their shelves & where to get value for money.

(In fact, this is a good time to pu

Not software, per se, but...

[Robotech_Master]

...the Baen bound-into-hardcover CDROMs would make a great addition to any library. Best of all, since they're freely copyable, all it would cost would be a CDROM blank...and they could be easily replaced if anyone broke or lost them.

I've actually taken to putting all five of them (available via BitTorrent at this website), three Blackmask.com public domain book CDROMs, and the free works of Cory Doctorow on a single DVD+ROM and handing it out to folks who have DVD drives.

Not technically advanced?

[himalayantraveller]

A library that does not stock linux cds is not technically advanced? Height of hubris on slashdot.

Or did you get confused between the issue of breadth of software available with being technically advanced?

How about Whitebox Linux?

[freebase]

Perhaps the folks at the Beauregard Parish Public Library could help out. Check out Whitebox Linux" to see what they're doing.

Amiga Fans

[Anonymous Coward]

Contribute copies of our old Fred Fish diskettes...

First-hand experience, this is a great idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always thought my own local library to be quite good at keeping up with the times. In the early 1990s, it was possible for me to bring in floppy diskettes and the names of software that I'd want and they'd arrange to copy it over me within the timeframe of a week or so from their giant shareware cds. This wasn't anything spectacular, I already knew of BBSes that were doing the same thing. But a week's worth of waiting was still better than 14.4kbps speeds and tying up the phone line.

By about 1995 or so, the library had begun carrying cds for checkout. This included a wide array of commercial titles (offhand I can remember stuff like Print Shop Ensemble or MapRoute being available) that were available for checkout and installation at home. As with normal librry materials, each checkout came with a due date. Of particular focus to the library was the collection of edutainment, games that were of educational value, and they were sure to stock the shelves full of them. I cam across copies of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and Carmen Sandiego games and much more. This always seemed to me to be what a library should be.

In another example, library books (such as say... "DVD Making made easy") that come with a cd-rom are always checked out with the cdrom. And so that software that comes with the large manual has always been available as well.

Now with the open-source movement being what it is, I look forward to the administrators of the library putting together their own cds full of software and tools. They just went through a massive budget cut and it would be nice to see the contiuation of the same high standards and technical sophistication.

I should point out however, that this is also a library that carries classic Marvel comics, DVD Boxed Sets of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and current issues of MAD Magazines among it's materials.

My old library must be really advanced....

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember getting my first copy of Minix from my old library 10 years ago. They just let me check the disks out and take them home.

Really cool

[zpok]

I'm always bitching about usability and installers, but maybe the biggest problem really is the missing "retail experience". You know (might remember): grabbing the box, checking out and reading the install instructions. Think of it as a ritual if you will.

If such a library project could emulate some of this, that would overcome a big obstacle.

I think: include a booklet with hardware compatibility, system requirements and install instructions, make sure all distributions are stable and leave the experimental stuff for adventurers out of it. Adventurers will have to "rough it" on their own, it's part of the fun, or so I'm told.

Also provide a descriptive list of what's included. Linux program names are horribly confusing.

Tons of sw at my local library

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I should keep my mouth shut after reading some of the posts, but my local library has had a very large software dept. for well over 10 years. I used to check out WordPerfect! Of course, you were to de-install it when you were finished, and never copy anything. That dept. has been fantastic, has helped me learn and grow in so many ways. Should I add that I live near someone with the initials ESR?

I love the idea, I have some older hw I could donate for just such a cause! I would be happy to help people try Linux and other free and open- source sofware. Thanks!!

FTP Mirror CDs!!!

[MikeDawg]

I remember, when I first started using Linux, I got the "Tri-Linux distro set" (which included Debian, Red Hat, and Slackware), along with it came a 3 cd set of a sunet mirror FTP site. So by today's standard, I would like to see a CD mirror of the iBiblio.org FTP archive.

Re:Games!

[shadowbearer]

If that was a slashdot rule, there might be three slashdot posters left by the time it was perfected.

Or maybe two.

SB

Get it out there.

[rice_burners_suck]

Hell... I'd communicate on a constant basis with everyone and anyone I could get a hold of who is involved with any free software, and try to put together an organization that would take money donations and use them to provide libraries with "official" free software CDs to be borrowed and copied by their patrons.

In other words, a real charity organization, with glossy professional looking literature describing to those in charge of libraries the benefits of allowing people to borrow, use, and copy free software. All the library has to do is contact the organization and a 4211 disc crate of CDs will arrive in the mail shortly thereafter, fully labeled with the contents and nice little explanation pamphlets attached that explain what is what.

If such a thing can be successful around the world, and I see no reason why it shouldn't, then the corresponding materials might be put together by the project that produces the software, just as RPMs are produced today.

I would love to see this happen. The more free software we put out there, all over the place, the more people will consider switching.

I have 2 words Australian BroadBand

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a verry intersting system not perfectly up to data. These mirrors iso of most major linux distros only one catch this does not count to the useage of the BroadBand ie it is no quota space. Download as much as you like. $29 Australia Dollars a month 200 meg or more download from the internet unlimited downloads of stuff from the local sever.

Now this is the problem here as ADSL rolls out the need for this gets less.

Big places sould be able to make 29 dollars a month no problem.

Re:I have 2 words Australian BroadBand

[SEWilco]

Good price. I'll offshore my Internet access.

Re:I have 2 words Australian BroadBand

[mcbridematt]

Being Australian, I can tell you that broadband here is... a joke.

It's cheaper for me to keep my unlimited everything dialup connection and download as much as I want and pay local call charges every five hours than get even a 256/64 connection.

Re:I have 2 words Australian BroadBand

[Anonymous Coward]

You find it surprising that broadband is more expensive than a dialup connection?

Mozart isn't a big hit either but they have that!

[aquarian]

Not too many people check out opera CDs, but most libraries carry those. Part of a library's purpose is to introduce people to new things.

Vancouver Public Library

[Anonymous Coward]

I just heard some sad news on talk radio -- TV host Sean Hannity was found dead in his hotel room last night after a book signing. The coroner has not yet officially ruled it a suicide, but apparently that's what it's going to be ruled.

I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will mourn his passing -- even if you didn't agree with him, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.

OpenCD

[linkjunkie]

TheOpenCd

Comment

[Anonymous Coward]

A PC with a burner will let people copy non-free stuff, but they can do that at home anyway.

TheOpenCD, of course.

[moquist]

http://theopencd.org

I think TheOpenCD is a tremendous evangelism tool, because it meets the newbies where they are. Without forcing them to learn what an Operating System is, without making them install one, and without making them learn all-new apps all at once, it gently introduces them to some great FOSS apps. The CD automatically runs a program that browses the applications available on the disc, and it includes categories and helpful descriptions of the applications. It even has essays by RMS and ESR.

Full Disclosure: I'm co-founding Software Freedom Day (http://softwarefreedomday.org/) with the maintainers of TheOpenCD project.

I have to disagree here.

[ericbrow]

I just don't agree. Wouldn't people expect the librarians to support any software? Do you know many librarians who could support open source software? I'm sure there are many who read /., but I know they don't work at my local library. BUT, the idea isn't without merit. I think I might burn a few dozen copies of Knoppix, with the note "Put in cd drive and boot", and slide them into various books in the library.

recommend no burned cds

[SaberTaylor]

This is a great idea. I used to think that free sw advocates should get free cdroms placed at checkout counters but apparently that is highly valuable retail space.

I would recommend that for people introducing libraries to free software, that cds should be purchased from mass-produced (with the distinctive stamped look) cd vendors for security trustworthiness. Not just on the person who puts the cds in the library but so borrowers don't replace any cds with their own versions.

And for burnt cds I'd recommend that the URL for the checksum be included in the cdrom case.

As far as selection goes, I don't think you can go wrong.

have fun.

Don't forget The OpenCD

[zapyon]

http://www.theopencd.org/

It is a collection of Open Source for Windows user. A good starter if you want people to get to like the taste of freedom. ;-) It includes OpenOffice.org, The GIMP etc. (IIRC).

Regards, zapyon

Books for free in Bonn (Germany)

[zapyon]

Actually there is: In an alley in Bonn (former capital of the Federal Republic of Germany, near Cologne) there is a glass-and-metal-box with a shelf of books for anyone to help themselves to one or more.

You are expected to bring them back after reading and invited to provide some of your own books you don't want to keep. Has been working for approx. 2 years now, not withstanding some vandals who broke the glass doors of the box a couple of times ...

Regards, zapyon

Re: KOHA

[Chordonblue]

And this has been a huge problem for me at my little school here in Lancaster, PA. There's a lot of really cool Linux-type projects out there that I'd love to take advantage of, but I fear.

I fear that if something goes haywire, there is little or no support (other than some helpful folks online). In the case of Koha (which we have looked into ourselves), I think it would be a great fit. But I tremble to think what would happen if... Something happened.

I'm pretty much a Linux newb, and although I feel I've come a pretty long way in that related knowledge, I still don't feel competent enough to take on a huge project like Koha here by myself. Simple firewalls are one thing, a multiuser database holding thousands of library records is another.

BUT... That doesn't mean I won't continue to grow and learn as time goes by. I just have to 'live within my means' for the time being.

'software' at local library

[0x52]

All the IETF RFC's. IEEE stuff, if possible. ISO stuff, if possible. Project Gutenberg's already been mentioned. And, in dead tree format, VI manual, GCC manual, stuff like that.

From a librarian's point of view...

[jim_deane]

Ever since I started working at the public library in my town, I have been slowly adding to the collection of non-Microsoft guides, books, and software.

Unfortunately, due to the draconian rights management practiced by some commercial companies over the past twenty years, the concept of "making copies" of software and "giving it away" strikes fear into the hearts of upper management, many of whom haven't actually learned anything about software since their library master's program, when computers were XT class machines, a library would be lucky to have just /one/, and no library ever heard of an internet.

One thing that someone (and I may take up this charge) should do is write an article for the Library Journal or another of the librarian-professional publications. Describe the history of free/open software, describe the licensing issues, answer the obvious questions that arise from the Microsoft-addled point of view, and then review a number of free software items. Knoppix and several different flavors of Linux, various flavors of BSD, office software, and other applications.

Then describe the market! Who can use this software? Who /does/ use this software? Why is this important to the people who use the library?

Find out if your library has a geek on staff, and whether they have a CD burner. If they don't, or they aren't willing to donate the CD's, how about printing up some decent labels, burning the CD's for the library, and donating them?

In doing this, you would reach the majority of the professional library staff, and show something of the community spirit which has made free/open software possible.

Believe me, the librarians are your best friend in this endeavor. You might even find that the younger technical librarians (the kind that maintain the computers, do cataloguing, web page maintenance, and databases--you know, the 'back room' librarians) are already Linux/BSD/etc. geeks, just itching to help promote the cause!

Jim D.

Free Software FOR the Local Library

[SEWilco]

Let's not forget the local library might like to have free software in the back office as well as on the shelf:

• oss4lib: Open Source Systems for Libraries
• Koha: Open Source Library System

livecd's

[intertwingled]

A variety of Live CD distros so that people can try out Linux, FreeBSD, etc, without having to install on their hard drives

KOHA-Testing, testing, one, two, three.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm pretty much a Linux newb, and although I feel I've come a pretty long way in that related knowledge, I still don't feel competent enough to take on a huge project like Koha here by myself. Simple firewalls are one thing, a multiuser database holding thousands of library records is another."

That's why the pro's rarely if ever work live, on something new. What they do basically is have a test system that mirrors the important aspects in minature. There they test, and test, and test until they're reasonably certain (reasonably because there can be issues that only show up when scaling up) they've worked out the kinks. They also work out a migration plan as well. You need to do the same. Hardware is cheap, and the software is free. Maybe you can borrow (with their permission, and involvement) a sanitized copy of the database to work with. You do want to get them involved because they can bring to your attention issues you may not be aware of.

"Linux Format"

[r_j_prahad]

I nominate the cover discs for the monthly magazine "Linux Format". I get 2 or 3 CDs per issue, and there's a DVD subscription option for those who want it. In the past they've included just about every major distro's ISOs, including bootable images. There's also lot's of bleedin' edge stuff that's too big for most of us to download, like the new OpenOffice or KDE3.2. Sometimes they've even got some really expensive proprietary packages that run as crippleware but they're usually complete enough to get some good use out of them.

So that's my vote for my lending library. But I'd still keep my subscription anyways.

Participate in culture

[kop]

A library should make is possible for people to have knowledge of cultural and scientific progress. Thats why i applaud my local library (amsterdam, the netherlands) for allways having the newest pc games! (And the best collection of DVD's you'll find anywhere)

Open Source in Cape Canaveral area Libraries

[burdicda]

I distribute hundreds of cd's of knoppix, gnu-win, and opencd...email contact me back....

burdick@digital.net

TheOpenCD

[Anonymous Coward]

TheOpenCD is a good FOSS marketing tool. Should be perfect for libraries.

Re:Why CDs? Why not entire net cafes?

[necro2607]

Hell, why not have entire LANs going on so we can play network games while we burn our free CDs?

"Hey man, wanna go to the library?"
"Shit yeah, I heard they released a new patch for UT 2004 today yo!"
"Word, let's hook it up while we burn some FREE LINUX CDS! I even heard they got some new Knoppix shizzle goin' down..."
"Hellz yeah, the library is where it's at!"

Good point

[Pan T. Hose]

How many of the standard library users can install an OS on their own? What if they erase their entire disk?

Very good point. There should be someone who can help with installations and suggest appropriate books for beginners.

Re:None - CDRW?

[necro2607]

Distributing OSS software (maybe software in general) via CD is lame. In my experience, by the time you get a CD, half of its contents are out of date.

That's why we have CD-RWs... download the new ISO, re-burn the CD, you now have the absolute latest release on the same CD, and it only took a few hours to download and burn. It's like a CD that just magically updates itself every so often.

The upgrade problem

[Sunnan]

Most books don't need upgrading every six months or so.

software for the library

[mattyrobinson69]

knoppix
mandrake
fedora
debian
slackware
vari ous other distro's

open office
misc disks such as kde sources, gnome sources, X sources, etc

interesting

[yoha]

Why would anyone expect a small town in Eastern Florida to be technologically advanced?

Re:interesting

[DoraLives]

Why would anyone expect a small town in Eastern Florida to be technologically advanced?

Must have something to do with the moon and stars. That's the bright stuff up in the sky you can see sometimes at night. Fairly difficult to get to. Takes a bit of technical expertise on the part of a large workforce of folks who live, perforce, close to where people and large objects are hurled skyward.

Certain people are unable to comprehend this.

Security, Anyone?

[shylock0]

This poses a *huge* security risk which should be considered. What's to stop someone from checking out a disk of OSS and returning another disk of the same software, this one with a worm or built in DOS attack? You'd need to run an MD5 on each disk after it was returned, which libraries don't really have the capability for. Or, you'd need to find some way to identify the disks that is difficult to copy, like a holographic sticker that changes when removed (like the warranty stickers on some HP home computers).

Otherwise, such software is just begging to be tampered with by some wise-ass 17-year-old -- or somebody malicious, even.

Put the Free in FSS and provide CDs to the public

[solprovider]

Slashdotters are supposed to be evangelists for FSS. I would rather not force the library to:
1. Sell CDs, or
2. Dedicate a PC to copying CDs, or
3. Expect visitors to install Linux.

A better method is to follow AOL's business model. Provide CDs with a great label and a box that explains why you want one. Create CDs of FSS that runs on MSWindows. Let the CDs contain:
0. Easy installer that autoruns. Check the boxes and each installer runs without much human intervention.
1. Mozilla (browser, email)
2. OpenOffice.org (word processor, spreadsheet)
3. GIMP (graphics)
4. Games (fun. Make cerain to include 10 versions of solitaire-type card games.)
5. Extras (anything the copier feels would be usable by the public. No repeats of functionality. Must be added to a hidden page of the install wizard if they are ever going to be used.)

Do not try to convince the public to change their OS. Just make available alternative software that works as well or better than what MS provides. Once the public is using apps that do not require MSWindows, then we advertise that they can switch OSes. But that will not happen in the library. That will happen when they order their new Dell and insist that it comes preloaded with Mozilla, OOo, and the GIMP. Then Dell will see that they can lower the price if they use Linux.

Remember the assumption that a very large portion of the public does not install software. Those that do are usually smart enough to insist on a particular OS. The rest only install spyware when a website/virus hits them, and Dell might prefer to sell them a PC that cannot be hit. (Then again, Dell profits by selling PCs to people who do not realize their PC is slow because they are running 47 spyware programs.)

Getting people to take these CDs home and put them in their PC will be a challenge. Do not put price (even $0.25), work (insert blank CD here), or other effort (downloading) to be obstacles. These people have 8 versions of AOL on their hard drives; use the method that works.

Let me buy a set of 50 CDs with display box for a very reasonable price, and I will convince the local library to keep it by the checkout. They can call me when they run low.

No, I will not do it myself. No time. I am not writing and testing the installer. Here is a way for someone to make money on FSS. I expect to read on Slashdot that someone has these CDs for sale very soon. Just make certain the box is very pretty, and the software very easy to install and use. Contact me if you want help writing the marketing. Do not put "GNU", "Linux", "FSS", "OSS" or any other techie words on the box or the CD. Use phrases like "No more internet pop-ups!", "Faster than Microsoft!" and "Free photo editing".

If you want to make a real company out of this, provide (phone) support. Fill the support center with out-of-work Slashdotters, charge $20 per call, and pay half to the techie.

CDs already included with FOSS books

[walterbyrd]

Lots of books about FOSS, come with CDs included. So, libraries have been allowing the public to check out freeware CDs all along.

Re:Has anyone noticed?

[Anonymous Coward]

oh I get it ... you're a zealot.

LoFat's argument may be lifeless, but at least he has one. I tend to prefer reasoned argument to a bunch of ill-considered platitudes, but maybe that's just me.

And if you actually read what he said, you'd realize that the library as idea has nothing to do with format. It applies just as much to digital content as to physical media.

Re:Mozart isn't a big hit either but they have tha

[karlowfwb]

That's quite the debate in the library system right now. As a publicly funded institution, should we provide what they people say they want, or what we think they should want. In either case, my point was not that the library shouldn't carry these items, but that it would not be a very effective means of distribution.

Re:Two Words

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Uh...funny doesn't get you karma.

And there's a bit of a problem leaving porn in the reach of minors in libraries...my friend and I did a project about that (specifically, COPPA and Internet censorship in public libraries) earlier this year.

Overhead

[SgtChaireBourne]

No one said that the library has to give out CDs for free, eitehr let peolple bring them their own

The problem of inventory and lost staff time are two categories of reasons.

Easier all around, for right now, to provide copies where library patrons can borrow a CD and take it home or to a friend's house and burn it on familiar equipment, with familiar software, with familiar surroundings and familiar tech 'support'.