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Keeping Your Keg Cool Sans Ice
DrLudicrous writes "Case Western Reserve University is reporting that first year physics graduate student Adam Hunnell has come up with the idea for a Keg Wrap, a thermoelectric sheet that will be able to maintain a full keg at 32-35F by running off of wall current or even a car's cigarette lighter. The funding for this project is coming from the National Collegiate Inventors and Innovators Alliance, which has provided Mr. Hunnell with a $20,000 grant. Serious stuff - I'd rather see this than another few million dumped into quantum computing."
i wonder how many kegs he bought for that 20g... for testing purposes of course
Anything that improves the quality of beer deserves the Nobel prize
This sounds like part of the plot for "Revenge of the Nerds 6"; something about the jocks having a party that blows because the beer is warm, but the nerds invent amazing keg-cooling gadgets and get the cheerleeders to go to the Lambda-Lambda-Lambda nerd frat party.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I think it a fine invention. Beer has a greater impact on the world thus far than quantum computing.
Can they make clothing out of this? That'd be nice for the hot regions of the USA this summer.
And, I'm sure there will be people trying to figure out how to scale this to computers, particularly portable devices.
If there are 2,500 wholesalers are in the US how are 3,200 for them in Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania?
Give THIS guy the Nobel Price in Physics. Or Medicine. Or Peace - I don't care.
*cheers*
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
Guiness is both a meal and a beer! A true geek beer because it saves time.
I wonder if it's feasible to add solar-powered refrigeration to a cooler? Now THAT'D be a really useful invention. This keg thing is nice too though.
Gathered by Brooklyn plumbers when they are called to clean out clogged drains and toilets.
It drinks like a meal
Pour slowly, or you will break your beer glass.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
He plans to begin design work on a prototype in the next several weeks.
Great. I hope he lets us know when he has a design for a prototype.. And then maybe when there is actually a prototype vs. a vague bong inspired idea..
At this rate it seems that it would be easy for someone to get a jump on any opportunity and beat him to the market and patent.
Speaking as a good Englishman, why not learn
to drink beer with some taste which doesn't need
to be frozen ?
Wake me up when it can be attached to a molex connector...
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
But would any nerd ever want to keep beer cold indefinitely?
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Dude, there's nothing cool about that scenario.
Finaly science produced something usefull.
http://www.leadmagnet.50megs.com
The article isn't exactly heavy on details. How does the thing work?
"The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
This kind of device is exactly what many homebrewers would need for fermenting. I'd probably pickup two or three as I don't have the space or money for more refrigerators. nk
> I'd rather see this than another few million dumped into quantum computing.
The cooler reduces the entropy of the beer, and then you drink it, causing your brain state to collapse on a solution that's guaranteed to seem like a good idea at the time.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Hmmmm, a keg wrap that runs off of 100-120VAC power == keg parties.
Can also run off of a car cigarette lighter == tailgaiting extraordinaire.
This kid is going to the wrong school. He'd be a god down at Ohio State....
Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
Hi' I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from such beer-cooling movies as "Strange Brew II: Electric Icebox Boogaloo" and "Cool Keggings".
Happy Trails!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
Hunnell's idea is to design a wrap, made of nylon or a similar material, using thermoelectrics...The main challenge to building a successful wrap, Hunnell says, is selecting the proper thermoelectric devices from the many types manufactured. He plans to begin design work on a prototype in the next several weeks.
Seems like they would wait until the guy did something before writing about it! All those grad students with real data and publications and they write about an idea that got a kid a grant? Not to mention losing any royalties to somebody with real money stealing his idea (especially if the hardest thing is choosing COTS parts) Oh well...
If it can cool my noisy computer too using a nice and quiet blanket than I think he's missing a big market there too - beer is always on college students mind though...
Stick the Keg in a large clay pot filled with damp sand. Then leave somewhere warm. No need for a wall socket, solar power etc... etc...
..like this one. IIRC it was even on /. a few years ago.
There are these ceramic tiles *already* that when current is pumped through them, one side gets REALLY hot and one side REALLY cold (kind of interesting when you hold both sides at the same time). You can buy 'em for a few bucks. A sheetful of these and a big battery will keep anything cold for quite a while.
Where's my 20K, then?
a version for individual bottles..maybe battery powered?
Sig removed by order of FBI Patriot ACT
ahhh yes, but will quantuum computing keep my beer cold?
First, Koolio - the beer delivering robot, and now this!?
And this, Gentleman, is one of the most famous American Innovations of the early 21st century. Nowhere else in the world could they have come up with such a marvelous invention to keep frat boys drunk, in a car, or in a house.
(see next story on how outsourcing be a big deal, as it will not affect american innovation)
All bow to his Noodliness!! His Noodle Appendage has touched me!
I love you, Internet2.
"The potential market for the product, Hunnell says, is beer wholesalers and beer distributors."
Why am I reminded of this?
"I think there's a world market for about five computers." Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1952
(waits for 30 responses claiming he's got the quote, date, or author wrong)
n/a
I wonder if using the Nigerian Nomad clay pot reefer would work on a keg?
1. Big clay pot filled with wet sand
2. Smaller clay pot inside big clay pot with layer of sand in between(keg in this case)
3. Wet Rags on top of sand
4. Evaporation keeps your inside pot cool...
no plugs need
If it can cool a keg of beer, it can cool a graphics card or a CPU as well. Could this potentially be the end of Moore's law, if thermoelectric cooling elements could be built into a processor I daresay the problem of cooling powerful chips can be addressed very elegantly.
Anyone else amused by the fact this guy's from a Weslayan college? Methodism has often been asssociated with abstention from alcohol, bet the school loved the practical applications....
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
... when will i be able to use it to cool my system so i can overclock another 100MHz out of it and make winamp *that* much faster?
" .. or even a car's cigarette lighter"
Perfect for long trips :)
And when you get pulled over you'll be able to offer the officer something that won't taste like ass
This is also a great idea for a really silent cpu cooler. When is it going to be on the market?
I hope that the trauma unit at my local hospital gets one of these cold blankets to put me into hypothermia to slow down the effects of brain damage after I get so drunk I fall over and hit my head real bad.
ask your doctor to sign up for clinical trials on hypothermia as a treatment for brain injury patients by sending your doctor here
Actually, I would like to pledge $20 dollars to the existing grant to make sure this gets the proper funding! Nothing like a project like this to spur the great minds of our generation to take action.
I have to think that the $20k will pale in comparison to the Home Shopping Network profits next year.
I dont remember my kegs sitting around long enough to see room temprature, of course, I dont remember.
"If you have done 6 impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways" -- hhgg
You mean "Guinness". Note the two Ns See their site
Trolling is a art,
When the nerds who developed this decide its time for some testing, I keep getting this scene from that movie "Can't Hardly Wait"(with big "brained" Jennifer Love Hewitt) when Charlie Korsmo's nerdy character makes his way into the kitchen for his first cup of beer from the keg. After he takes his first gulp, he spits it out all over everyone screaming "NO ONE DRINK THE BEER, THE BEER HAS GONE BAD!!!"
"My shit always works sometimes!"
Dear Dr. Stupid,
You may notice that most American beer is Pilsener-style lager (pils). Which is intended to be drunk cold. Ask a brewer of Pilsener-style lager in any country what temperature his beer should be drunk at, most will say between 2 and 5 degrees C (36-41 F).
I myself prefer ales and stouts to lagers, but there can be no doubt that (1) cold lager can be an ideal (and very tasty) beer in a hot environment; (2) people in many countries (including the U.S.) prefer lagers; (3) no amount of ignorant snobbery can make their preferences wrong; and (4) YAASA. STFU.
Folks, next time some snooty jackass looks down his nose at you because of your beer, remember the Latin phrase de gustibus not est disputandunum, so you can teach him a lesson as your fist squelches into the soft tissues around his nose. And also, like our friend the AC here, he's probably wrong anyway.
Please remember to FOAD. Thank you for your attention.
Yours sincerely,
tybalt44
Without the free flow of beer there would be no new inventions.
When this vaporware becomes reality, it will mark the dawn of a new Rennaisance - a bold new world where intergalactic keggers are the rule, rather than the exception...
Long live the electric keg cooling blanket!
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
or even a car's cigarette lighter.
Thank God. Frankly, I think its pretty dangerous to have to lean over and pull beer out of the back seat ice cooler while driving. Now, we can just plug a cooler into the cigarette lighter and keep our eyes on the road.
Thank you, technology!
Yeah, 'cause that quantum computing is just a big waste of money...no future in that. /sarcasm>
Think about a cluster of these! In the words on my hero Homer Simpson, "WooHoo!"
The dingo ate my sig.
Thanks for the informative link. I liked how Professor Johnsson professes his love for drunken queer orgies. We certainly need more profs with a zest for faggot fucking.
The world is three drinks behind
The article is woefully skimpy on details, but it sounds like he's planning to sew a bunch of Peltier devices onto a sheet of nylon.
Perhaps, though the article doesn't make this at all clear, he thinks he's got some way to build a thermoelectric device out of a sheet of nylon. It would be a good and useful trick, especially when accomplished by a first-year physics student.
Either way, it sounds to me like you're going to have to combine this with a fan if you're going to get anything useful out of it. Thermoelectric devices move heat a few centimeters and concentrate it, but if you just let it dissipate it'll eventually warm up the other side of the device, sapping a lot of your power. You need to blow a fan past it so you can use the air as a heat exchanger.
Imagine a beowulf cluster of THESE puppies!
IN Soviet Russia, the Keg cools YOU!
I'm below 21 you Insensitive CLOD!
Why dont they just weave some flexible tubing into some cloth and stick a fan on one end? Kinda like squashy version of one of these ?
these ?
Or if air isnt good enough howabout pumping a gas or liquid through that tube?
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
those are a lot more fun, and you don't even need a power supply. yes, it won't go down to 0 celsius, but there are hughe differences between reasonably cool beer, warm beer, and stupidly cold beer.
oh, and these things are already in use, i happened to enjoy one already some years ago.
[i have an opinion and i am not afraid to use it]
I cannot believe that the chap submitting this didn't think about the possibilities for this. Refrigeration in the third world is so important - if this thing can run off a cigarette lighter, then it must draw so much less current than a peltier device, making it a very good solar-power candidate. This thing could revolutionise healthcare in third world countries. It could wipe out subsistence farming - food would stay unspoilt for so much longer. I am surprised (well, considering he's a student, not THAT surprised) that it has been marketed solely for beer. Well, some of the best inventions have arisen during wartime, and the war against cold beer has been raging for as long as I can remember, anyway.
I can vouch that the students at WV Wesleyan are true drinkers, and this proves it. I spent a few weekends there in a haze. Great academics as well.
Can someone explain why this wouldn't make your car an oven? Most "thermoelectric" devices I've seen only have about a 10 degree differential from one side to another. Bringing a keg down to 32 degrees (F) in a car sounds like it would take a LOT of energy.
Best Buy can have you arrested
> or even a car's cigarette lighter
I wonder how much current this thing draws - even in a well insulated ice box, conventional 12VDC refrigeration would drain an automotive battery in a hurry at ~5 amps. If this invention is a significant improvement, could have a decent market with boaters.
It will come in handy for all those long road trips to the M.A.D.D. seminars.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
Take a Peltier from an old computer rig or the new Coleman fridge. Bolt it with conventional thermal grease to a sizable (100 cm^2) heat spreader (Al or Cu) machined to match the barrel curve. Apply temporary heat transfer compound (KY jelly suggested, ketchup or mustard possible) and affix to lower quarter of keg with a rubber tie-down.
Insulation is of course important and will size the Peltier. Sit the keg on a sheet of styrofoam. Wrap keg with sleeping blankets held in place with pins or masking tape. Use plastic bag as a vapor barrier after cutting and masking holes for dispensing piping and peltier intake/exhaust.
The idea is the beer needs to be cold, not the whole keg. Dispensing, convection or even conduction within the beer should keep heat migrating to the Peltier. There is some risk of local freezing at the Peltier spot.
Could a person wear something like this? Imagine cutting bills by turning off the central air and wrapping this around you while you work.
I was going to say that presumably this thing can be made to run at "cellar temperature". I'm glad I'm not the only one around here who likes to drink beer with decent flavour at a temperature that it can be tasted.
"There are approximately 2,500 wholesalers in the United States. Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania between them have 3,200 wholesalers and distributors."
I missed the memo that said Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania seceded from the nation.
Can the technology be used with the copper coils used in ice coolers? After all the goal is most often to serve cold beer.
"Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
= waking up with your car parked in a fountain
~jaraxle
Somebody at just won a major invention prize for the following non-tech refigerative device: put a little pot inside a big pot with a layer of sand completely between the two pots. Fill the sand with water. Evaporation will keep the contents of the inner pot cool. This is proposed for 3rd world warm summers to keep from spoiling for 24-48 hours. This means you dont have to rush to market before every meal.
After this invention was announced, archeologists mention similar devices used in medieval Europe and the ancient middle east. Even modern partiers know beer stays cooler longer if you keep a wet towel over it.
A German company offers self cooling beer kegs since last year. I bought two of those myself for a birthday party which worked very well (45 min to cool down a 5 gallon keg to perfect drinking temp).
Clever technology - check it out:
Coolsystem
They used to provide one bavarian brewery (Tucherbrau - btw excellent beer)exclusively for quite some time but I think they started to bring it to the market already.
... when you could just use ice packs.
Now, where's my $20,000?
"Consider the lillies of the goddamn field."
I mean doesn't it strike ANYBODY as funny that an "alliance" that funds College activities is promoting COLD BEER?
Then again maybe it's just me. Awww to hell with it, someone pass me a cold one...
This technology is way behind. A German company has devloped a keg that cools beer with no cord. I actually saw this keg and drank its beer at Pack Expo 2003. The beer was real cold and the outside of the keg was warm. It works by evaporative cooling using a double-walled shell, a controlled vacuum, and a special moisture holding material. The keg could be regenerated and used over and over. It is quite an ingenious system. The company rep said that they had no sucesses in marketing the keg in the US. But this might very well be worth the cost of airfare to Germany.
Simple people talk of people, better people talk of events, great people talk of ideas.
www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/
Nerd? Oh yes because his party will be so lame that no one will show up so he will have a lot of beer left over.
Not only will the geeks' beer be cold, but with all the grant money they'll be able to buy the good stuff, not the usual mass market American piss beer of your average frat party. When are the young people of today going to learn that life is too short to drink McBeer? (When they get jobs, that's when.)
Unless I absolutely misread the news release I interpret this to be a low-power device.
My Koolatron Cooler will kill a car battery in 6 hours and that's a lotta damn power it's taking just to keep the temperature cool (I know, they only keep items at 20degrees below ambient).
While I don't know an awful lot about this stuff it still strikes me as having the potential to change the convention on how we think about electric refrigeration and I think that's pretty cool!
If you care for cool beer without electricity you might want to check out this system, which according to their website "chills beer, wine and all other drinks anytime and anyplace within 30 minutes without the influence of electircity [sic], Water or ice."
Something similar already exists here in Germany http://www.tucherbraeu.de/bier/produkte/index_Cool keg.html
The beer itself isn't that good though.
Glad to see the nerds finally getting some closure.
I'd pay for keep cool underclothes, powered by some kind of kinetic energy (like walking)
The devices he is looking at [peltiers] would require active cooling [fans] because they are woefully inefficient.
I just wrote a quick Perl script to convert your sig from a whitespace-seperated list of hex numbers to a string, so I believe *I'M* the one with too much free time.
./hex2str.pl
[inuchance@inuBook ~/perl]$ echo "49 20 68 61 76 65 20 74 6F 6F 20 6D 75 63 68 20 66 72 65 65 20 74 69 6D 65 2E" |
I have too much free time.
The "thermoelectric" effect used is the Peltier effect. So this guy "innovates" by packaging a whole bunch of Peltier elements in a flexible package AKA blanket.
Sheesh. How about a self-heating thermoelectric butter-cutting knife? Some innovation!
You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
keg cooler + pc + plus 12 volt adapter (found here : http://www.thinkgeek.com/pcmods/cables/61fd/ )
=
Bliss.
There are six-pack girls
There are twelve-pack girls
and then
There are CASE girls
What is his idea? It sounds to me like a flexible peltier array, what's original about that?
METRIC PEOPLE, METRIC!!!!!!!!
Most Americans drink lagers, which are better served cold. Even good lagers should be served cold. I personally prefer ales, which should be served warmer. But is Guinness "the finest beer ever made?" Nah. It's probably the best mass-produced beer in the world, but then again its competition is Bud, Miller and Coors. There are better stouts on the market.
You can cool without ice? Oh my goodness! This is amazing! This is just...unbelievable. This is...wait a minute. I already have a refrigerator...
Just build a big vacuum (Thermos) bottle around the keg.
Now your beer will stay cold all day without being plugged into anything.
Doesn't waste energy either.
Donate your own money then.
Here is a very simple system that even works out in the middle of nowhere.
Rolex Awards
I make my face look like this and concerned words come out.
Damn....I knew I shouldn't have bought that kegorator (fridge with a tap) for my garagemahal last month.
Oh well...if it ain't broke I ain't gonna fix it, since the beer is cold, wet and tasty!
Chaeron Corporation
There are approximately 2,500 wholesalers in the United States. Ohio, West Virginia and Pennsylvania between them have 3,200 wholesalers and distributors. Wow. Ohio, Virginia, and Pennsylvania form a nation that can drink the USA under the table!
[Please sign here]
Anything that can cool processors with no noise would be very welcome.
I'll stick to my homemade keggerator, it runs on it's own generator, but atleast the beer's good for a month.
[Please sign here]
I, for one, welcome our new beer blanket overlords!
American beer is crap. They need $20,000 worth of funding to improve it!
If this idea takes off, will Adam see any profit since Case University probably owns the IP?
Isn't his why people leave school if they get a really good idea? Of course in this case, he wouldn't have been awarded the grant.
Remember the biggest problem with current thermoelectric materials - the woeful efficiency - means for every say 3 Watts of electrical power supplied, you end up with only around 1W of cooling power and 2W of heat! One would do better with a keg *made of* a huge peltier junction which means the inside lining would be the cold plate and the outside lining would be essentially one big heatsink, but that would be quite a bit harder to design.
Much more energy-efficient would be a similar keg sleeve with a portable heat pump providing keg-isolated coolant and heat exhaustion. Heat pumps are much more efficient at this, despite being less convenient.
- HOORAY!
For the folks who have a British car - the suggestion is that it's due to our fridges being made by Lucas Electrics.
Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.
Thermoelectrics, running enthalpy against entropy, is very costly, in watts per hours-cooled. While mass-produced ice from the beer distributor, properly wrapped, is relatively efficient. I'd rather see research producing an insulated keg with charged, drainable ice cavities. It would also keep pledges from electrocuting themselves when executing tapcounts. No wonder you're against the extremely low power quantum computing. You're aptly powerdrunk, Dr. Ludicrous!
--
make install -not war
I'll do it for $2,000, and get to pocket more than half of that!
"Thermoelectrics". You know, peltiers. I just picked up a couple of high-quality, surplus 45-watt Peltiers for $4 each. Each being able to pump up to 30 watts of heat, it certainly wouldn't take many of them to keep that beer keg nice and chilly.
So, just for grins, let's say that I buy 20 of those, and run them at much less than full power. That keeps each spot from getting so hot that it needs a heat sink. That's what, $80 so far? Then, it's a matter of building the power supply/temp controller and sewing up a wrap.
Out of this guy's $20,000 grant, he'll probably be able to spend about $19,500 on "restocking vital supplies" (refilling all of the kegs he's drunk).
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
We use wraps just like this in semiconductor manufacturing to pre-cool vaccuum High Pressure Physical Vapor Deposition (HPPVD) chambers prior to pump-down. In fact, this same method has been used since at least 1991 with the introduction of the Varian 3290 PVD "sputter" machines.
2. Use "big words" and "science" to confuse people about cooling said beer.
3. ???^H^H^HGet grant of $20,000! Woohoo!!!
4. Profit, baby...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Wow. Throw one of those around a keg, put the keg on a Radio-Flyer (or other form of acceptable wagon) along with a car battery and inverter and you've got yourself a keg party to go.
Now we just need to do something about those damn open container laws we have in the states.
(Maybe some shock absorbers on the wagon too, you know, to keep the foam down.)
beer is supposed to be kept around 55 degrees fahrenheit. 32-35 mentioned is too cold.
american beers are best drunk cold because the standard american ale is gross, or at least fairly flavorless. the only way to get it down is to have it highly carbonated and ice cold. other beers with real flavor are better warm and less carbonated because they actually taste good! also, beer that you have 'warm' doesnt mean room temperature, just like wine served at room temp isnt supposed to be 71 deg. F. its more like 62 degrees. it makes a big difference. ask any barkeep at a good london pub.
This is something that I have been looking for for the past 2 years. I do serious cross country motorcycling...1000 miles a day types of trips. There is nothing worse than being stuck in 100 degree heat wearing full protective gear.
This could probalby be fitted into a suit and with a controller modulated to allow for cooling on HOT days... I want a sample! Where can I get it!
than a FEW HUNDRED BILLION dumped into the stupid-ass weapons the Pentagon is developing a la the other /. story today.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
It's a 1/2 barrel. The ones shorter than that are the 1/4 barrels and the tall skinny ones are 1/6ths. Go into your local store and ask for a "full keg" and you will get a wierd look.
Do you want to know more?
Can you imagine a beowulf cluster of these? :-D
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Give a man a computer and... hey! free p0rn! -- Unknown
[...]will be able to maintain a full keg at 32-35F by running off of wall current or even a car's cigarette lighter[...]
Great! Instead of drinking "only" a sixpack while we are driving, we can now drink whole kegs while we drive!
To me this seems like a waste, why not just use ice and drink before the keg before it melts, works well for me.
Up here in Canada, we just stick the keg outside the door, in a snowbank. Nice and cold.
this can be plugged into a USB port.
IT'S a REVOLUTION!!!!
I don't see any cost or enerty consumption studies. There are lots of ways to make or keep a keg cool. How many BTU's have to be removed from a warm keg to get it from say 80 degrees F ambient at the beach party down to say 40 degrees for the party. What rate does the thermal tansfer happen. (in other words, will it be cold in time for the party?) Would it be faster to fill a trash can full of bags of ice.
Reality check.. Does this solve any issues other than how long you can keep it cold? If the idea is to keep it cold, is this going to use more or less power to do the job. TCO includes the purchase price and the operation cost. Buying bags of ice is a high operating cost, but fast. An insulated container may decrease your ice consumption rate for long term storage but increases the initial purchase price of a container. How about some comparisons of short and long term TCO studies.
The truth shall set you free!
I was a brewer In Australia where the heat gets over 100 degrees F in summer and i consulted for a small beer company that does most of its bussiness online and its distribution model is direct marketing so this sort of this would be great. http://www.blowie.com.au get free shares in a brewery trying to export to the United States but the beer is being finger printed and investigated by the CIA,F DA and US customs and anal probed by miliatary intelligece beforeany American can drink it .
> Nowhere else in the world could they have come up with such a marvelous invention
Yeah, an ice-free fridge... That's never been done before.
How quickly we seem to forget... Last month, Slashdot had a story about another ice-free fridge.
Pretty girl:"Whats the nerd doing here?"
Jock:"He's the only one that knows how to keep the beer cold."
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
It also needs to be lagered. In order to produce kimchee instead of stinky, rotten cabbage, it needs to ferment at or less than 40 degrees -- refrigerator temperatures.
That's why the Koreans call it "winter kimchee"
When I worked at a restaurant, and had permission to use the extra space in the walk-in, I could make it by the 5 and 10 gallon lots.
Regards, all...
I'm armed and I haven't changed my patch, so don't start with me -- you *know* how I get!
In related news, the Darwin Awards for 2005 have already been announced ...
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