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Is Your Computer Leaking Toxic Dust?
n0alpha writes "A recent study by scientists at the University of Washington suggests that computers emit dangerous chemicals. Specifically, chemicals called PBDEs (poly-brominated-diphyenyl ethers) found in the household dust that collects on your monitor and keyboard could pose a health threat. Scientists say the chemicals have caused developmental and learning defects in laboratory animals and may pose a threat to people and animals. 'It's critical we phase these materials out,' said Suellen Mele, Citizens for Resource Conservation. And some companies are doing just that."
Is Your Computer Leaking Toxic Dust?
Being that they found these toxins on every computer sampled... As an aside, does anyone know what causes "New Computer Smell"? Obviously chemicals but what ones?
Trolling is a art,
no matter what you have and/or do, it will kill you, don't run in front of a speeding truck. no parasute free skydiving, now bungey jumping with only twine. now this.
Ya know what... this is going to be another email chain letter... nimby's going ape over the "new killer problem omg!!!" for the next 3 months.
people... *life* is dangerous... deal with it
...I stopped licking my keyboard when I was 16.
FLR
Well, I guess my computer WILL be the death of me ; ;
Like I could develop a learning disability from chemicals leaking from my... uh... thingamjig...
Crap....
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
Today's date is most definitely NOT April 1st.
That being said...
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
I never considered the IT field a "high risk environment" until now. I wonder exactly how bad this stuff is for you. Can't be much worse than brushing my teeth with heat sink compound.
even a stopped clock gives the right time twice aday...
Reading this post is bad for my eyes. Going to the toilet to often can give me RSI and serious backproblems. Eating wears out my jawbones. Everything is bad for you if you sart thinking about it. Everything dangerous is called life.
You mean that neon green glow coming from the back of my case is not healthy?
Toxic, it's such a harsh word, how about "Not encouraging to one's health"
No, but once the EPA does a study, a massive program will go forth to fit toxic gas collectors on all persons that violate those pollution guidelines.
We can look forward to having to wear inspections stickers stating we are all compliant with these standards.
I don't want to think too much about how those inspection stations will operate.
Well it's always been said that letting the blue smoke out of the power supply was bad. I suppose this gives new onus to that subject.
they also mentioned that these compounds are found on many electronic devices. Let's just suppose, for the sake of argument, that this dust shortens your life span by 10-15 years. Are we willing to change our lives radically (go back to 19th century living) in order to live longer? Or will we just deal with it as a cost of progress? Like an earlier poster said, everything kills you.
Don't be a looter...and yes, I know that it's spelled with an "A" instead of an "E".
I can hardly believe the computer's leaking any kind of dust, there's usually so much dust that gets in.
Here in Sweden the PBDEs are already banned through legislation, and I think the entire EU is on the way towords a ban as well.
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling!
Seriously, every week we hear about the risks of eating too many carbs and then studies proving otherwise. We hear about why we should buy this and do that. Now we'll start hearing about new improved "Air filters" that remove the new threat of "PBDE"...Only four monthly payments of $69.99! These companies will start cropping up, the moment this story hits the local news channels.
Its kind of sad, but I don't trust most funded scientific studies anymore, they all seem out to snatch our dollar for some other ulterior motive.
Sig it.
If you snort two or three tons of this stuff, over the period of a few days, it will kill you!
Think of the children!!
'It's critical we phase these materials out,' said Suellen Mele, Citizens for Resource Conservation. And some companies are doing just that.
the liberals always claim that companies NEVER do anything in our interest unless the government forces them by regulating them. i guess the liberals are wrong.
Good to know it's not just the lead paint in my apartment.
btw, that article doesn't mention the university of washington at all. Google doesn't seem to think they have anything, either
Umm, if it collects on your puter and monitor, it was already there. Just now it's in one place for easier cleaning.
If I recon correctly, gasoline fumes contains beneze. Have we stopped using gas ? I think not.
Everything is a question of risk. Just going outside is a health risk. Let's stop panicking for a while. We all gotta die of something.
Im kinda worried now after reading that, i just bought a 19inch lcd monitor, and they said the highest levels were from that with no other computers in the room. I wonder how my thermaltake case, msi mb, and amd64 are for these chemicals. Ive been in front of pc's for 10+ years.
So, if all of the programmers are being exposed to something that causes developmental and learing defects, how does that influence the software being developed? Is this why there is so much bade code?
Does this mean /.ers will be the first to go? We probubally spend more time at a computer than just about anyone else.
Evolution or ID?
The point is not that life can't be "dangerous." We all die at the end of the day.
The point is that there are SAFER ALTERNATIVES AVAILABLE. Do you have lead pipes, paint, and asbestos in your house because "life is dangerous?" No one is advocating giving up computers, just using safer components.
Wake up for christ's sake.
That goes away all too soon?
"Scientists say the chemicals have caused developmental and learning defects in laboratory animals" A lot of substances are harmful in high concentrations and are these compounds not also found elsewhere? Let's take a realistic look at this before we panic and start wearing gas masks when we are within 10 feet of our computers.
Who needs cases anyway? It's a lot easier to change the configuration on my machines if I don't have to mess with those pesky cases anyway.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
. . . and several other organisations have confirmed PCBs damage the brains of human foetuses.
.
By forming them into a hammer and then. .
KFG
I wonder if this "discovery" will cause the same kind of half-hysteria as the "discovery" that potatosnacks (chips, french fries etc.) contained a chemichal that could cause cancer. What was the name of the chemical? Acrylamid?
So let me get this straight.
Computers
1.Cause neurological damage
2.Cause your eyes to go semi blind.
3.Cause you to become lazy and fat
Am I missing anything here?
-Dipster
"Welcome, this page is dedicated to the Linux Community's greatest ambassadors, Gentoo users. Like the annoying teenager next door with a 90hp import sporting a 6 foot tall bolt-on wing, Gentoo users are proof that society is best served by roving gangs of armed vigilantes, dishing out swift, cold justice with baseball bats to those fucking ricer bastards."
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
If you eat your pets, you have more problems then just PBDEs
Now the accumilate of this chemical through birds is worrysome, just like what has been happeenign with Mecury and Pesticides, but how much of the article is just scare tactics of few to frighten many?
As all things, before anyone becomes overly worried, research. Afterall it takes some odd 100+ cans of diet Dr pepper with saccharine a day to get possible cancer.
Then again, I could be mis-informed
learning defects in laboratory animals
They're ANIMALS. Are we really capable of measuring the learning ability of a lab rat vs. another lab rat?
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
Like geeks keep shit clean anyway. Only thing worse than living in a damp, dusty, mother's basement while consuming week-old moldy pizza is going outside and having the chance that you might be hit by a subway car being ejected from the tunnels ala Speed.
that research causes disorders in lab animals.
Banaaaana!
funny, there's a same article here:
0 36 10297.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/04/10862
I think Windows XP is emitting dangerous dust as well. I feel funny each time I start it.
It's already been documented that silicon valley has the highest incidence of autism in children, as well as a growing rate of infertility. No idea on cancer yet.
Health care people also have increasing rates of autistic children, and at the same time their work environment has become increasingly technical (higher end imaging systems etc) I have not seen breakouts on different professions, expect more studies to follow.
I have four friends with recently diagnosed autistic kids, Parents: radiation technician, nurse, medical equipment technician, programmer, data administrator.
The fall of the Roman empire was attributed partly to the fact that the wealthy and affluent would drink wines out of lead vessels while the poor drank from animal sacks. The wealthy and powerful ended up poisoning their minds and allowed the barbarians to overun them. We may be doing the exact same thing with technology.
Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.
Circuit design uses many toxic chemicals and some manufacturers have been sloppy about it. Some new fab processes use safer stuff like C02 and citris.
How long until the emissions from my arse are labeled as deadly and unhealthy?
the EPA is going to come after my ass....literally.
.... for the cigarette smoke.
But I didn't realize that spontaneous computer combustion during shipment was a problem that needed a solution. Dockworker carelessly flicks a cigarette into a pile of computers and they go up like California sage brush? Who knew?
I prefer to call it pixie dust myself.
Presently here, but not there.
i've been using computers most of my life, and i haven't noticed any learning problems, heck my IQ is still in the high 80s just like everyone else.
-Joe 2 Keg
I know of a banking software support department that was a victim of toxic overload. Their work area was full of computers, smelly carpet on the floor and walls of the cubicles and chemical emmiting magic markers strewn profusely around the work area. Added to that were stacks of computer manuals emitting printing ink vapors. The coup de grace was the cleaning lady that would spray deodorizer and wipe everybody's cubicle down with a cloth so dirty it probably was infected with several new undocumented life forms. What happened here was a situation where a large bank's database needed repairig, a major change that was to be done remotely from the tech support area. A dozen or so guys sat in on planning the change as well as the head of the department. A considerable amount of time was devoted to developing the proposed change. They diagrammed out the change on their chemically saturated ink pen markup board, the kind that is so common these days in corporations (no mind that junkies sniff the same type markers to get high). While they made their changes the cleaning lady made her rounds, the network laser printer spewed pages and clouds of toxic vapors, the fax machine added to this toll of chemical brew. When the time came to make the changes on the bank's ACTIVE database the mouse was clicked. One guy said as soon as that was done he realized they had screwed up. A banking system that processed tens of millions of dollars per hour was brought to it's knees. These guys were literally poisoned by the conditions prevailing in their work area and it made them look like chumps. There were other signs, particulary a high rate of headaches and one guy even had a sinus infection so bad that he ended up in the hospital(he was taking asprin because he just thought he had a 2 week long headache). While no one source of chemical outgassing is particularly signifigant it adds up.
This will probably lead to removal of these chemicals from the processing, because humans don't like dieing while they click. Arguably more important is the world health benefits:
The process that creates the nasty chemicals most likely pumps out more nasty chemicals into the environment. Greener output usually means greener process.
I for one welcome our new green computing overlords.
www.olin.edu
PBDE's were first used in the 1970. All related patents are expired by now, and the revenue stream is tanking due to increased competition. Time to 'leak' some info to the greens who will happily lobby to have these 'dangerous' chemicals outlawed.
Too cynical ?
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
"oh lisa, you and your stories...bart is a vampire, beer kills brain cells...now lets go back to that...building...thingy...where our beds and tv...is"
Ever felt that you're being herded? MOO!
So now we have something else lurking and competing for space around the 'puter and peripherals.
Is this any worse than potato chip crumbs and errant staples?
If the enviro-nuts want to gin up a substantial reason to worry, perhaps we can guide their attention to money and brain power wasted on "So what!" research. Good Christ! Business professionals have been sitting in front of these boxes for 20 years and they've become a home appliance steadily for the last 15 years. Given the raison d'etre for this sort of effort, the next step is to suggest that these compounds caused AIDS, massive hair loss and obese buttocks.
Mod me troll, if you must, I can't help it.
Using "safer" materials can lead to a bigger problem. The fire retardant formula for the motherboard in the Apple G3 iBook was changed to be more environmentally friendly. Why they chose phosphorus as the replacement is beyond me.
I am a little confused. My research indicates that computers really don't generate very much dust at all. When they are new, they are very clean and generally devoid of fibrous substances that could be liberated as dust.
I have found, however, that computers make excellent dust accumulators. PBDEs are not only used in computers, but also in children's pajamas, mattresses, etc. - all of which generate large quantities of dust. If there are harmful flame retardant chemicals in the dust, wouldn't that have more to do with the mattress, furniture, and clothing than it would with the computer?
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
was I believe around 45, it's around 75 now so even if we factor in 10-15 years, it's still better (if that means longer) even if we don't go back to 19th century living.
Either way, I guess we should all stop licking our monitors and keyboards just in case.
-- null
Maybe this is a way to finally get techno-geeks to clean the dust and crumbs off of their systems.
I hope they do some followup research on the things hiding in my keyboard.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Take another look at the second article in the original post. Their tests were measured in pg/cm^2. Picograms. As in 10^-12 grams. It's gonna take a while for the compounds to accumulate to toxic levels (on the order of mg/kg body weight).
Also, remember that the PBDEs are primarily used as cleaners and anti-flammability agents in the manufacturing processes of many electronics. They're not being created by your monitors (i.e., there's a finite amount of them per piece of computer equipment, so they'll eventually run out). Your computer won't be "infectious" forever.
Try these sites for more info on PBDE:
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstein
They put fire retardant in computers?
If so, I've never found it to be very effective with equipment that I've owned.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
Dihydrogen Monoxide http://www.dhmo.org/
Are you intolerant of intolerant people?
Now I can have an accessory to go with my Tinfoil Hat, a matching TINFOIL GASMASK. Who said nerds had no fashion sense!
EVERYTHING KILLS YOU IF YOU GET ENOUGH OF IT!
Seriously it will. Water will give you cancer if you drink enough of it.... though at that point you will die of overhydration.
There has to come a point where we say OK yes it will kill me, but is it really that dangerous and that likely. This whole world like feeds on virus/chemical protection to the point that we might as well live in caves, but in clean white bacteria free caves!
Honesly I make it a point to NOT use antibacteria crap and to not really care about chemicals unless they have big freaking skull and crossbones on it because honestly, whats the point.... so I lose a few days of my life at least Im living it and not huddled in fear in a corner at the fact that everything can kill you.
Besides I find I dont get nearly as sick as my sniviling germ phobe friends, probably cause my body adjusts and forms antibodies to it.
Yeah Im going to die, but I highly doubt it will be my computer/cellphone/whatever that will do me in.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Talk about motives, I couldn't believe there is actually a group called "The Bromine Science and Environmental Forum" made up of a few big bromine manufacturers. Imagine them as little kids saying "When I grow up I want to lobby for bromine!" These guys must have absolutely fascinating lives.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Heck, Mothers accross the wold have been trying to do that for years!
iRepairIT - iPhone, Mac, & PC Repair
...may not be your own. There's been a lot of jokes here about how no one's going to live forever and all that bullshit, but there are other considerations than yourself.
r s_ pr.html
Let me give you a *painful* personal example. Three years ago, my six year old son was diagnosed with Autism - a genetic defect that may in fact be linked to chemicals such as these.
It would really piss me off to find that my career was directly responsible for his condition. My wife sent me this article before even Slashdot picked it up and it got me thinking about it.
It's all water under the bridge now, but my son's condition has affected our lives in countless ways including the decision not to have children in the future.
It also made me wonder about this article on Wired:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/asperge
It's how Silicon Valley has the highest rates of Autism in the country. Maybe it's not so much who you mate with, but in what environment...
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
So going through the article and some of the PDF left a lot of questions unanswered:
1. What can people who sit in server rooms do about their exposure? Oh, that's not answered because this is a report for industry and government, not everyday people. Recommending that I recycle everything ASAP isn't going to fly well with the PHBs of the world -- heck, there's still asbestos in some buildings!
2. Does dusting off the monitor and vacuuming the case have any benefits at all?
3. Would using an air ionizer be helpful?
4. BIG ONE! Why does the report make lots of very specific recommendations to industry and goverment but leave out this one: EDUCATE THE PUBLIC ABOUT PRECAUTIONS THEY CAN TAKE RIGHT NOW? WTF?!?! They say a lot about protecting *workers* from future issues and acting on immediate dangers, but no mention is made of what can be done to reduce risk for children (does that baby on the report work for someone?) or in homes that can't afford to replace every plastic widget. Of course this is a report for industry and government and telling me I might be able to solve this problem by cleaning my house a little better, or putting a dust cloth on the the monitor, doesn't move as much money around at the higher levels. (cynical, I am before coffee kicks in).
I'm not really all that worried about it (and our baby's due in 5 weeks!) and I'm glad they've done a report, but until I know what to do about it I'll just have to live with it and this report doesn't really do anything but cause panic when I can't do anything about it...
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
Whith all the GHz radiation from and processors / wireles lans / cellphones and now this. we should al be dead already :)
"Is your computer leaking toxic dust?"
I sure hope so. I'd like it to kill me before my job does. At least my death would be caused by something I like.
blog |
So, how does the hazard of the dust from the two computers and eight laptops in my office compare to the hazard of the fumes from the new carpet and fresh paint that my boss insisted on?
Yeah, I kinda thought so.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
So, do they have any recommendations about the maximum allowable amount of PC dust to eat per day?
Paracelsus is credited with the phrase "the dose determines the poison". So they've found detectable amounts of these compounds: but "detectable" goes down to staggeringly small amounts these days.
I'd think that ordinary household dust contains an even wider range of carcinogenic and toxic chamicals adsorbed on its particle surface (cooking fumes, tobacco smoke), plus a free bonus of bacterial and mould spores and allergenic proteins (from pets, dust mites)
Fortunately I keep my PC case safe from its toxic surroundings by having a case fan pull in outside air through a dust filter -- this also has the benefit of protecting the heatsinks inside from getting clogged up with dust..
HAVE YOU LOST YOUR READING SKILLS BECAUSE OF THESE CHEMICALS?
Those people who are saying that this is BS, and that there is no health threat probably cant read.
The article says the following:
Toxins attach to the house dust. INFERENCE: Using the PC is not dangerous, presence of PC in the home adds toxins to the house dust. Understand?
THEREFORE, its not about using PCs its about breathing in the dust.
THE POINT OF THE ENTIRE ARTICLE IS THAT COMPANIES SHOULD STOP USING THOSE CHEMICALS, NOT THAT YOU SHOULD STOP USING PCs.
Got it now?
By the way, any airfilter should be able to filter the things out of the air.
I love the smell of burning lead in the morning.
That was supposed to say "esters", right?
What did they do in the lab? make the rats each the dust?
How many of us lick their keyboards or computer cases anyway? Is there scientific study around that?
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Waa waa. I'm so great. You're so weak. Waa waa. Give me your cookie.
Come on, dude.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I am not dismissing that some of the stuff on TFA's site may be propaganda. This article about PBDEs and computer processors, however, is not. I found this story today.
(Actually, I logged on to Slahdot to submit the CNN story and saw that it had already been published from another source.)
What really irks me is that these chemicals aren't even needed - flame retardants are used because US companies fear getting sued if someone's monitor catches fire and burns down the building.
It appears that in their "quest for safety", or "liability shield" in corporate-speak, they've actually made their products more hazardous.
Quite frankly, I'm sick of the "We must do something" approach. This is the same thinking that led to:
The biggest problem with "Safety Rush" is that it isn't safe. The inclusion of safety chemicals and features creates the situation in which consumers are collectively dumbed-down; witness, for example, the idiot who tried to trim his hedges with a lawn mower and cut off his fingers in the process. He expected the mower to have a warning that you couldn't use it for that purpose. Why did he expect that? Well, because American companies have gone out of their way to ensure that, to the maximum extent possible, the consumer can't hurt themselves with their product.
In the end, what it really comes down to is that the Safety Rush hurts more people than it helps. At best, it lulls people into a sense of complacency when working with dangerous equipment; at worst, risk to the consumer is compounded by the use of chemicals which aren't known to be safe. While fire is certainly a safety hazard, its danger is much more easily mitigated by the consumer than the risk of cancer through unknowingly being exposed to flame retardants.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
I can imagine you were the kind of classroom joker who played around in science classes with that toxic skin-penetrating liquid metal - mercury - on your fingers, your tongue, your ... Looks like it reached your brain.
These wackos crack me up every time... they're concerned about micromasses of these chemicals leaking out of the plastics in your computer - which are no different than the chemicals in the plastics in everything else under the sun.
Why are they not also complaining about the hundreds of other modified ethers that are out there polluting everything, the most profound of which is Methyl Tertiary-Butyl Ether? Huh? We burn that stuff in our cars and then it settles and gets into the ground water.. nice...
I'm not concerned with causing developmental problems in the laboratory animals running around in my house... I am, however, concerned with drinking a bunch of crap that should have been banned years ago that we're dumping into our atmosphere by the gigaton.
FYI, MTBE lowers mileage, making you have to buy more gas... it pollutes the water and air... and there is no conclusive evidence that it reduces CO emissions from cars, because most cars have such radically advanced control loops for emissions that they have next to zero CO and NOx emissions anyway. The last time I had my SUV in for inspecting, using NON-MTBE fuel, the results for both CO and NOx were 'UNDETECTABLE'.
Here's a useful website on MTBE: http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/
Sorry for the off-topic rant.. but I'm just getting sick and tired of these weenies complaining about EVERYTHING. STFU already and do something useful, instead of wasting my tax money on your frivolous causes.
Just use a cloth moistened with DHMO.
http://www.dhmo.org
and nobody cares anymore. Talking about toxic dust while looking for the lighter is ridiculous.
The scientists in the studies reported their results in units of picograms per cm2. So they found from basicaly nothing, to slightly more than nothing - their maximim combined concentration of the brominated flame retardants was about 300 picograms, or 300 x 10e-12 g/cm2, or 3x10e-10 gram/cm2.That's an awful lot of zeros - even if you scale it up to a dustfall area of 10 m2 (5m by 2m), you would have a grand total of up to 3x10e-5 grams over the entire area of 10 m2, or (I always screw the number of zeroes up when converting from scientific notation) 0.00003 grams.
Based on these truly insignificant quantities, I'm wouldn't worry about licking your keyboard. I would be more interested to know what percentage leaves the computer attached to particulates (thus settling as dust) as opposed to the amount that leaves as a vapour. Even better would be to see a typical mass balance - to know that if you had 50 grams of these materials in new electronics which you purchased them, whether it is 0.05 grams or 0.0005 grams which has been released in your house over the past five years of daily use.
I cannot really imagine circumstances where you would ingest even a noticable fraction of the amount, and even if you did, so what? Humanity knows very little about dose-response relationships (just as we know very little about most things), and the methods used to extrapolate from high dosage animal studies to humans are sketchy at best - sure, they are peer reviewed and widely accepted, but that is mostly for lack of a better alternative. You have to define a risk somehow, but I doubt that most studies claiming a 1 in 10e5 lifetime cancer risk (1 in 100,000 people will die of cancer due to typical exposure) are actually even within an order of magnitude of reality. Oh, and I forgot to mention that your body may only absorb and/or retain a tiny fraction of the total amount of brominated flame retardants which you ingest. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but even if you did ingest 0.00003 grams over the course of a month or year, you might only absorb 50%, or 30% , or 5% or 1% of that into your bloodstream.Risk assessment looks at a lot of things - the pathway (did you breathe it as vapour or particulate, did you get it on your skin, or did you ingest it), the dose, the (extrapolated from high dosage animal studies) dose-response curve, and so on.
As I say routinely to my colleagues at work (environmental consulting) whenever I see an overly restrictive rule which doesn't add much safety: nobody's gonna die. Rest easy, all of the other environmental contaminants to which you are exposed every day will likely kill you long before this does. I'll even go so far as to guarantee that it is less risky to lick your keyboard than to eat anything which is barbequed - there are all sorts of nasty compounds in charred food, ranging from PAHs such as benzo[a]pyrene, a well-known carcinogen, to ultra-trace levels of dioxins and furans. Doesn't stop me from grilling a steak, and it shouldn't stop you either (or vegetables, if that be your preference).
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
Too frightening?
Uhh, Newsflash -- People are animals. Homo sapiens to be exact.
- Hail to our fearless misleader! Fool speed ahead!
I thought mine was just leaking bits here and there.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
I am very surprised at the reaction from the community here. I hate FUD spreading fear-mongers as much as the next geek, but this isn't the first time we've learned that we need to actively remove dangerous substances from daily interaction.
Anyone here have exposed their kids to PB based paint? Anyone here use any DDT on their lawn this year?
These chemicals are cummulative and the damage cannot be undone. Let's hope these kind of studies continue to educate law makers.
We really shouldn't be so lax about infant technology that hasn't been fully explored.
Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
That just sounds scary.
I think you have your health priorities backwards. If you eat so much you're wearing out your jawbones, you are one huge, fat, diabetic son-of-a-bitch by now. I suggest calling someone to fetch your prying-bar to get you out of your huge chair.
(a) How many people die every year in office fires or house fires?
(b) How many people would die every year in office fires or house fires if fire retardants were not used in computer products?
1. Get a smoke alarm fitted for a few dollars each.
2. Get a fire suppression system fitted for less than the cost of the computer products themselves.
3. Benefit from cheaper fire insurance premiums.
4. Benefit from improved health due to reduced exposure to toxic fire-retardant chemicals.
Seriously? Could this explain the retarded method of communication (OMG, LOL!!!!11) that we see coming out of these Evercrack babies that are spending massive amounts of time in front of these apparently brain damaging machines?
Kids need to get out and get some friggin' sunshine.
yes, im sure lead and mercury is cheap, and poly-whatsits-bromide is the perfect solution for whatever, but since we are so great and smart, why not make things with slightly less toxic things, im sure there are other materials that will "work just as well (almost but good enough for the children, think of the children)"
i just dont understand, after a theory is proven, and initial designs are up and prototypes are running (using whatever materials and methods are necessary - its ok to use deadly things in science, since its not public) there is not much effort to refine the design and make it safe and efficient. dont get me wrong- i understand some of the downfalls of capitalism, but i dont understand it from the perspective of the individual - why is the public person not pissed that their cars suck, and their tvs are poisonous,and blah blah. and why is the individual scientist ok with putting these toxins out into public relm - general lazyness? greed? all of the above?
why not get the same end with nicer means?
[end hippie rant]|plastic....or gasoline?|
I always thought that if my computer were to kill me, it would be by swallowing my mouse, or becoming entangled in the cords behind it and not being found for days, eventually dying of thirst........ or maybe killed by a T-1000 like thing.
But nooooooo, now they tell us that we're going to die by dust. Well, me and my Swiffer Suit have something to say about that!
Since PBDE is used for flame retardant, hold your expensive equipment next to a blowtorch
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
Someone said to me once, "You shouldn't get your cat high!" I replied, "Why? She doesn't have final exams tomorrow."
is it that some of the most intelligent people have been using computers most of their lives and are still freaking intelligent? Of course I'm only talking about the *nix users. The MSofties obviously have brain damage.
Your couches, chairs, and others are all covered in PBDEs. It is a common industry practice to cover their manufactured goods with fire retardants. In fact, they're now finding that most Women have large quantities of PBDEs in their breast milk. The whole fire retardant thing is out of whack. People don't smoke like they use to.
How else do you suppose scientists should get paid their salaries without having funded scientific studies?
Criticise the science of scientific studies. If you cannot criticise scientifically then keep your ignorance to yourself.
I know you all think that's really funny, but as someone who's done a fair amount of desktop support, I've cleaned many a keyboard/monitor and especially CPU by dusting with a can of air. Which has usually generated a huge plume of dust. Which I've certainly inhaled quite a bit of.
So pardon as I act a little more concerned than you, because this reads much like the stories from 60 year old guys with lung cancer who worked in asbestos plants and whatnot. "Sure, there was all this stuff flying around, but hey, we thought, 'its just dust'" etc.
Please help metamoderate.
It is understood that it is based upon fact, or at least things that have been seen to point towards fact, but most propaganda is loosely based upon the truth.
My point was that, although serious in that it does poison, it may not do so unless somehow the things you eat contain the chemicals, and unless you are eating animals in the wild, like fish (Which I sadly I am a catch and release fisherman for this reason now), you would not come into eating the chemicals unless you lick your computer monitor, or don't wash your hands after typing on your keyboard before you eat.
As well as a slim possibility of getting enough of the chemical into your body, from not washing your hands; The simple matter is that with bioaccumulation, it may take only one bird of prey consumed to get enough of them chemical, it would take YEARS of licking your computer monitor. Mainly because bioaccumulation starts with small fish, many eaten by larger fish, and many larger fish getting eaten by birds, those birds eaten by birds of prey, and those eaten by humans to get a massive amount.
Although not impossible, it is unlikely.
But thank you, I appreciate the link you've given me.
Their wipe tests were performed after dust was allowed to accumulate for at least five days. Let's suppose that I regularly remove and ingest the dust from 200 cm^2 of my computer. That would be licking the dust off about thirty square inches of my computer's case.
In that case, I'm being exposed to 40 ng per week, or about 2 micrograms per year. That's about 0.1 mg over the course of my lifetime--a tenth of a milligram.
A recent literature review(1) (abstract and full text) gives a threshold for toxicity due to octa-BDE (the most toxic compounds studied in the wipe tets) as 2 mg/kg (fetal toxicity/teratongenicity, rat and rabbit models.)
The most toxic compound being phased out (penta-BDE; not measured in the wipe tests) affects neurobehavioural development from 0.6 mg/kg (rat and mouse models.)
The carcinogenicity of these compounds is not well-characterized, however any effects seem to appear at much higher exposures that one would expect in the real world.
In other words, these compounds bear watching and the fact that they are bioaccumulative is troubling--but they're definitely not something to panic about. I'd also be more concerned about ingestion from other sources--bioaccumulations in fish and eggs--rather than from your computer hardware. Those problems, in turn, can be addressed through proper disposal of retired computer equipment.
(1) Darnerud PO. "Toxic effects of brominated flame retardants in man and in wildlife." Environ. Int. 29(6):841-53 (2003).
~Idarubicin
As opposed to the manufacturers' emphatic claims over many years that, on the incredibly selective basis of zero independent scientific studies of the toxicity mechanisms, this particular set of chemicals is absolutely safe in normal use and poses no threat of any kind to humans or to the environment. Wow.
2. Everyone gets scared as reporters slaver over another Deadly Threat To Children, Motherhood And Leper Washing Nuns.
3. Grant money!
Not to say research like this is not valuable. It is. I'm just damned effing sick and tired of the scare tactics. You know, kids, you were actually supposed to learn valuable life lessons from stories like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" fable and the "dihydrogen monoxide" satire.
--- Ban humanity.
If you clean the monitor regularly, includig vacuuming and use the vacuum to get the Doritos out of the keyboard, there should be no problem. In my area we have a lot of fine dust and getting out the vacuum every couple of weeks is the only way to keep the fans balanced and quiet. You should see the brown mung that comes in on customer PCs that have not been cleaned in years. Out the back door with the air hose for a serious blow job. How some heat sinks dissipate anything but oder is amazing.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
"According to other scientists, such as Dr. Gina Solomon, senior scientist at the Natural Resources Defense Council, there is no need to panic. They say that although the levels of PBDEs are high enough to be worth talking about, they are unlikely to pose a serious threat to human health."
'Nuff said.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Damnit, I've been breathing this stuff for thirty years now, and I still haven't grown an eye in my forhead. Is it more deadly than the radiation from all the monitors I'm surrounded by? Am I more likely to die from a meteor strike? Should we spend billions figuring out that this will decrease our average lifespan by fifteen minutes? Now that we're seeing more and more of this in mother's milk, I suggest that we all commence breast feeding immediately!
Just another day in Paradise
These toxins are produced with DHMO!
SUPPORT A BAN ON DHMO!
"It's a moral imperative."
Ha, ha! Nobody ever says Italy.
Lets see those retchid antivirus companies release a fix for this worm!!
*if you code it, they (users) will break it
-i made that up
Computers may spit out some questionable chemicals but they pale in comparison to the other more common things that spew chemicals which also have larger surface area and/or mass (meaning more outgassing). The biggest concern, IMHO, is carpet.
You think a computer has a "new" smell? Go in any room with carpet that has been laid in the last month. For allergens and irritants you'll never get out of your computer the things that come from old ductwork. Etc etc. Calling for chemical output reductions in computers seems to me like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Bad management trumps ideology - Show the world you want better leadership. http://www.timefornewmanagement.com
Asperger's and autism are more likely due to the fact that it's a geek haven.
A choice quote: "Scientists strongly believe that autism is greatly influenced by genes."
I'm not worried about this toxic dust article. I keep my area cleaned. Independent researchers aren't worried about it. We've had computers since the 1970s. When Stallman grows a third arm, that's when I'll start getting worried.
"Sufferin' succotash."
Studies have shown that long-term exposure over many decades results in death. As Red Foxx used to say, "you'll look pretty stupid, 80 yrs old and laying in bed, dying from nothing".
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment but also upset some moderators who have decided, against the advice in the moderation guidelines, to moderate your post as "flamebait" which is clearly not appropriate.
where the hell 7334 speak came from.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Skynet!
If you're concerned about dust, get a damp cloth (micro-fiber works amazingly well) and clean up a little! No, really. You don't even need detergent or other "antiseptic" crap (the kind that causes allergies and heavy liver damage, especially to children). Just a quick wipe every other week will keep your room climate fresh. If you've got carpet, you may want to have a look at a good, strong vacuum with a good filter and go over the floor every week.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
i love the smell of poly-brominated-diphyenyl ethers in the morning.
It is apparently possible to cleanse the body of such toxins.
My mother spends the lion's share of her day reading journals and other such information on the topic of living a healthy, natural life, and bodily cleansing. There's a lot of information out there on it.
Still, this should be a very big concern for anyone that's heavily into computers and has young children.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
If you're like me, you'd die without a computer anyways.
I think I think, therefore I think I am.
It's not a secret that Spider Plant removes formaldehyde from the air, so you should have one around.
There are also plenty of other plants that remove pollutants.
Don't answer me. Moderate. Slashdot is about moderation, not discussion.
Is it just me or does everything kill lab rats?
TOOTHPICKS FOUND TO CAUSE DEATH IN LAB RATS
Scientists have discovered that force feeding lab rats 50,000 toothpicks caused death in 99.9% of cases studied. The one rat that survived eventually died from starvation.
"This proves that toothpicks are dangerous and should have warnings printed on them," said Bob T. Scientist, one of the researchers who turned mice into twiching pincushions.
The FDA has yet to comment on this story.
--- This
Avoiding avoidable risks is not necessarily being fearful. Finding such behaviour objectionable in other people is a sign of arrogance. There exists a rational choice, devoid of emotional significance, of whether to believe a new piece of scientific evidence of a connection between exposures to toxic chemicals and health problems.
Scientists have not directly correlated exposure to PBDEs with specific diseases or developmental impairment, although researchers are studying possible links between brominated flame retardants and autism.
remember all that talk linking high-functioning autism to geekiness? assuming this is true, it would be an entirely different explanation for the correlation!
"Toxic dust" found on computer processors and monitors contains chemicals linked to reproductive...disorders...
So that's why us Geeks have such a hard time getting dates - "It's our computeeeeeers!"
Wait, didn't we already know that?
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
Can we make computers out of soy.
Here is my reasoning.
The Sierra club is very concerned about the environment. They are so concerned that they send literally millions of letters out to literally hundreds of households, telling the people there that they should be concerned about the environment.
They print all of their materials using soy based inks ! If they're doing that, then soy-based inks must be good. They must be much better than the other inks that companies like, say, Microsoft uses on all of its letters. I bet Microsoft uses radioactive ink to print its letters. The kind that kills.
So, if soy-based ink is better, then let's go one step up: let's make that computers that print out the soy-based ink letters out of soy, too.
We all know that soy can be used to make plastic, and most of a computer is plastic. Everything else in a computer is basically metal -- and metal, as we all know, is perfectly safe in small objects (but not as safe when it is big -- at least, not if it could fall from the ceiling and hit you). The only other part of the computer is silicon, which is sand. And sand is perfectly safe, too, because it is 100% natural and has been around for millions of years.
So, if we just replace the plastic with soy, then we should be just fine.
Also, maybe we could put dust filters in computers, to capture the evil dust. Or maybe we could just put the Surgeon General's warning on the top of computers:
SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING
If you are pregnant or smoking, do not breath the toxic fumes coming out of this computer! Also, if you are not smoking or pregnant, they are still bad.
Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
(there are not modern Giga-top-secret-flash-chips-keyloggers inside of older keyboards)
We don't want to replace our olds monitors!!!
(there are not modern Giga-top-secret-flash-chips-charloggers inside of older monitors)
open4free ©
You seem to have decided to accept that this example of a halogenated hydrocarbon is poisonous on the basis of a CNN article, yet you still dismiss websites which are presenting and discussing the University of Washington research as propaganda. The PDBE chemical and others like it need to be removed from products; they are too widely and unnecessarily used, not just in computer products but in all sorts of household and industrial products. What is particularly wrong is that computer product makers have been using such chemicals for so many years when their toxic, mutagenic and teratogenic effects have been studied though incompletely understood for a similar number of years.
No wonder I've been having trouble concentrating since starting college... it's those damn PBDEs from my computer causing a learning defect. This is so much better than my sleep deprivation theory; now I can sue someone! Yay! ;-)
If you are buying a PC, your minimum PDBE-exposure option would be to buy a desktop PC whose components are built from non-plastic materials like wood or a metal PC case, a wooden mouse and a flexible membrane-type keyboard made of a material without PDBE such as rubber or silicone.
Some are just stupid. Drinking and driving, for example. Promiscuous sex. Obesity. The list goes on. These are all well within our ability to control and/or moderate, but we choose not to.
One thing I would say is this:
When a discovery like this is made like this the reaction can be 'load of rubbish', 'now everything's bad for us'. While that may be true with food this is a different matter. You can't lump it together will those scares. Computers aren't natural as are plastics and that kind of stuff. It wasn't there before in our natural(ish) environment so it's ok to view it as a problem.
Obviously nothing to loose sleep over. But if you can reduce it a bit then why not? - unless you're willing to do the honourable thing and go through evolution.
A blog I run for the wealth
Unfortunately for us, in the US at least, we have become overly obsessed with germs and germ fighting. Everything you see kills 99.9% of bacteria!
My wife and I raise goats. (for milk & meat) One thing I noticed is I'm a lot more resistant to the "office flu" then my coworkers.
Soon we will be bathing in extra strength bleach, drinking pool water (we basically do), and using disposable/burnable everything.
On occasion, my wife and I will spend a few days at her parent's house. They live in the city. I can hardly stand to take a bath there because the fumes from the chlorine hurt my eyes. I swear they have more chlorine in their water then in a pool! We can't stand drinking it, so we buy bottled water.
At home my water comes from a well. It's probably packed with e.coli and anthrax, since I'm raising goats a few hundred feet from the well head. In fact, I'm pretty sure it has e.coli, since e.coli outbreaks occure at country fairs if they use the water out of the well for the city folk. (doesn't effect the country folk) Most fairs will bring in bottled water for that reason.
"That's so plausible, I can't believe it!" - Leela
Hmm, some RSI-like symptoms are actually due to nerve problems. Maybe in this case the nerves are weakened and so are more sensitive to just a bit of squishing.
If it is the death of anyone it will more likely be from the fact that they are sitting on their behind all day instead of getting any sort of exercise.
-------------------------------------
Technically, we are beyond survival.
OMG, we're all going to fucking die! Yeah right! So what are they suggesting, that we stick surgeon general and "this product is known in the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects" stickers on computers now? Absurd. If it leaks toxic dust then let it be so. At least it is probably that I can perhaps collect hazard pay when I get out of college and into the industry. Will I also be able to wear those super cool body suits to program in too?
now stand up and smell your chair...
I vacuum the inside of my computers once in a while.
It's fun! You should too!
I can't help but call the article "alarmist" and "misleading".
The study's protocol did not sample or measure environmental levels of these chemicals, the samples are all stated to have come from swipes directly against the plastics of the devices.
DUH, anything you use to wipe down a surface will accumulate some of that surface. If you use a paper towel to clean your windows you will find minute amounts of glass in the paper towel if you test.
As far as I can tell, no-one has performed any study to look at the aerial solubility and dispersion characteristics of these chemicals. In plain english: they didn't test to see how much of this stuff just floats off in to the air, or how far it goes once in the air.
Even if the chemicals do attach to "regular" atmospheric dust, such dust either passes though the computer/device without touching anything, or collects in the device, thus not posing any risk. Even when these chemicals to attach to dust and return to the surrounding atmosphere, that makes the dust heavier and it then tends to fall to the floor even faster than it would have before.
All of this of course doesn't even get to the amounts of these chemicals they've found. They measure in Pg/cm^2 or one trillionths of a gram. If I've gotten my math and conversions correct, to get 1 gram of these chemicals via swiping directly from the highest yielding computer case in the test you'd have to swipe an area roughly 18,000sq/miles or half the size of the state of Indiana, or roughly twice the size of Vermont.
And again, these levels are from direct abrasion of the plastics, not from free atmospheric testing. Using their "field blank" you're approaching the area of the entire USA worth of swiping to accumulate one gram.
Now... here's what they seem to be telling us:
If you regularly brush up against, lick or snort your computer, and you do it enough over many many years, you could accumulate a small amount of a chemical which we think may cause birth defects in some women.
Does that REALLY rise to a level where federal bans are indicated? Where's the ban on playing golf in the rain, climbing ladders, etc.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
and yet, somehow, people living in the countries whose foodstuff bears the majority of the substances you listed are living well into old age, far beyond what their ancestors did.
and stop sitting on the various actual cures which have been experimented with
which? are you sure you didn't get that info from Art Bell?
While searching for the MSDS forms, I ran across this paper which details the problems using various fire retardants, including PDBE's, in plastics. It seems as if there's good reason to pull these chemicals from the market.
May be a primary cause of Sudden Infant Desth Syndrome (SIDS).
A lot of research has been done in this area recently.
It may not be a conspiracy, but there seems to be something to it.
Mom always said not to sit too close to the monitor, but I thought she was just keeping me from smudging it with PBJ sandwiches. I guess the relationship is mutual, and we're totally outclassed.
--
make install -not war
Scientists say the chemicals have caused developmental and learning defects
ahhh, so THAT explains why there's so many retards on the net: they really are developmentally damaged!
Did Microsoft release a patch for this yet?
That's a very unfortunate story but it underlines the fundamental problem that water supplies in developing countries are very often contaminated with bacterial and viral lifeforms which have to be killed with chlorine-based disinfectants which people then drink. Investment in better sanitation would solve the contamination problem and avoid the need for chlorination. The one-off cost of providing improved sanitation in most developing countries would be a small fraction of their GDP.
[i]"Scientists say the chemicals have caused developmental and learning defects in laboratory animals and may pose a threat to people and animals."[/i]
Why Geeks are Geeks!!!
The utter and complete ignorance and arrogance expressed on this issue is staggering.
These are poisons YOU are NOT immune to them.
Fools!
Not that this should be a huge surprise, but anything taken in a great enough amount can be linked to cancer. Water for example. I have a feeling cancer is linked to a change in your lifestyle. If someone were to be exposed asbestos everyday for twenty years and than stop, that person has changed his atmosphere, which can make your cells behave differently. On the plastics issue, China and most cheap places use the brominated plastic. Japan I believe has phased it out of their production. This just in: Scientists have linked breathing in your short increments for extending periods of time increases your risk for lung cancer. --tarballedtux
Was the link you posted for "Fox News" and "Junk Science" or "Junk News" and "Fox Science"?
Apparently, some sources, such as Greenpeace disputes this:
...
o xics/international/cholerachlorine.pdf
"The 1991 cholera epidemic in Peru did not arise because the disinfection of water supplies with chlorine was discontinued. Chlorine disinfection of the public water supplies of the affected areas in Peru had been non-existent, intermittent and/or insufficient long before the cholera outbreak."
"In Lima, a city with a population of seven million and a water supply built to serve 230,000, chlorination of the water was intermittent at best. After the epidemic, officials claimed their failure to chlorinate was the result of a report they had received from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency that linked chlorination to a small risk of cancer. This was later described as "a face-saving excuse to cover up their laxity - while the city of Lima seems to have had the resources to chlorinate its water, the bureaucrats in charge chose not to make the effort." "
Link to Greenpeace article on Peru Cholera crisis:
http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/media/publications/t
Well, I guess someone should post a link to a previous ask slashdot about air filters.
Howdy Doodly Doo!
Anybody want some Toast?
I using keybaord 20years and not have no prolbem.
... of about 15 years ago? Everyhing that carried a low-frequency electric and/or magnetic field - power lines, electric wiring in buildings, CRT monitors (vertical and horizontal deflection yokes) - were all sources of low-frequency electromagnetic fields, and were supposed to increase one's cancer risk. Did any statistical studies find any such increased risk? The one study I recall was on women who worked on utility poles (and so allegedly spent more than the average amount of time near power lines), who had a LOWER incidence of breast cancer than the whole population of women.
Unless and until a study is done that shows an increased risk of disease around a computer, I'm not going to worry about it. I would much rather breathe "computer dust" than breathe vapors from driving in traffic that I KNOW are bad for people(yet people decide to do it every day), and that's not even considering the chances of being in a serious auto accident.
You have to evaluate risks rationally, and this one may be immeasurably low. What if one person per ten million per year died from "computer dust" - how could you be sure the death was because of this? You couldn't. The death could be caused by innumerable other environmental factors.
Here are some things that I have no doubt are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more important to your health than staying away from computer equipment:
Fasten your seat belt.
Quit smoking.
Lower your fat and calorie intake.
Exercise.
Don't sleep with the wife or daughter of a gun owner.
Tag lost or not installed.