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NYT Magazine: Are Comics The New Mainstream Novels?
securitas writes "The New York Times Magazine cover story this week is a (typically) long feature about the rise of comic books and graphic novels into mainstream culture, with writer Charles McGrath (former editor of the Book Review) stating: 'Comic books are what novels used to be -- an accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal ... perfectly suited to our dumbed-down culture and collective attention deficit.' McGrath cites the mid-1980s birth of a movement that began and fizzled with Maus (Art Spiegelman), Love & Rockets (Hernandez Bros.) Watchmen (Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons) and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (Frank Miller). The current renaissance in graphic novels include non-fiction Palestine (Sacco), non-fiction Persepolis (Satrapi) which has sold 450,000 copies, Ghost World (Clowes), American Splendor (Pekar), Road to Perdition (Collins) and Chris Ware's Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth, which won the 2001 Guardian Prize for best first book and has sold 100,000 in hardcover. McGrath interviews Marjane Satrapi, Julie Doucet, Joe Sacco, Art Spiegelman, and Alan Moore, among others. The article also has a multimedia interactive feature with many of the graphic novelists (registration required) in the magazine article."
NO!!
The author of the article barely makes mention of it except to crack a joke. Manga has been mainstream entertainment for people of all ages/social status for years in Japan, and accounts for about 1/3 of all books and magazines published there (and several billion US dollars in sales). Where 'Comic Books' are considered Geeky in the US, Manga is read by everyone from children to housewives to businessmen.
It's about time we started catching up...
Urge to post... fading... fading... RISING!... fading... fading... gone.
3million links in the article summary. Which one do I read? Which one?
> Are Comics The New Mainstream Novels?
This may be true, although I have a slightly different perspective. I think we just really like the people who make comics, because they are expressive people; these same people could do anything else and we would like it just as much. For example, take Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert. I have been holding out for the next Scott Adams novel (not comic, read: handbook). I was greatly amused, and felt better protected against the weasels in society, after reading "The Way of the Weasel." This was a fantastic read, filled with cynical, yet practical knowledge, to help combat the weasels ruining our workplaces and our private lives. Sure Dilbert comics make an appearances in TWotW, to illustrate concise points, but they only accent the rest of the book and support points raised with classic Dilbert humour. His writing is stunning -- and wholly useful. I can only hope he writes another one of these because I found it totally useful, as I'm sure many of you have.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
...for all your dumbed down graphic-novel reading needs.
Seriously, if you've never read it, it doesn't get more bloody or offensive than that... my favorite graphic novel by far.
Yep, good old New York Times, never missing a chance to sneer at popular culture.
After all, if people actually like it, it can't possibly be good.
Perfectly suited to our dumbed-down culture and collective attention deficit...
I think that's a bit harsh for novels and graphic novels. Some of the comics cited above are difficult, intelligent stories with involved character development and a good story to tell.
Calling that dumbed-down undersells the artists and the readership.
I'm pretty sure someone was saying that about Dickens in his day.
Cheers!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
But they are the best pre-built visualizations for selling Hollywood on a movie. And the only thing Hollywood hates more than giving gross points is reading.
It might just be my imaginiation, but the golden age of comics is over, with all those web comics swamping the already broad selection it's hard to find a decent one.
Not to mention cathy, someone shoot the creator already
I kninda fell in love with Wulff Morgenthaler though, humour that's sick enough for me.
that the most maintstream is political propaganda? It subvertedly cites how such media as Fox News is technically considered comic book material, somehow striking a chord for those looking for good old school girl pr0n.
sigh--cap it all.
The Custom Mary
Oprah: Hey y'all!! I've gotta new book for Oprah's Book Club© today!! It's the latest issue of "100 Bullets"!
Book Club Member 1: I really enjoyed this issue Oprah.
Book Club Member 2: Me too, when the protagonist exacted his revenge in the three page, four color graphics, I was moved.
Book Club Member 3: I was able to rediscover the goddess within!
I don't think comics are the new novel.
"Here's a spoiler: You're will die alone."-Triumph the Insult Comic Dog
With classics like Penny Arcade who can blame us?
I'm sure many of we lovers of the medium of comics will object to the "dumbed-down" comment"
Comic reading implies a different kind of literacy.
Not an illiteracy.
We know many people who don't read comics because, as they say, "we don't get it".
I pity the comic-illiterate, for the unique joy that they lose out on.
And I question the implication that comics are "dumb".
Many literary works of great sophistication, not to mention beauty, happen to be comics.
...when people on the street start speaking in word ballons.
I just saw "Comic Book the Movie" staring and directed my Mark Hammil. I do believe that this movie does show many of the reasons why it does not hit major mainstream. I love comics but some of the people who are all about comics just plain creep me out. There is that stigma and it scares many self proclaimed (and they want to be that way) "normal" people away.
/. so let the flamebait mods begin.
Yes, I do realize those guys are prolly mods on
Evolution or ID?
How can you have a post on graphic novels without including Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" series? ;)
:)
Seriously, this is some of the most amazing stuff ever to come out, both with respect to storyline and art. Gaiman is a master wordsmith and weaves elements of ancient religion, existential philosophy, and wry british humor into his works. More here, here, and at Gaiman's Blog.
Seriously, check it out. This stuff is awesome
-JT
You must be new here...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Wish I had finished "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" when I had the chance. FP?
I know your pain man. I too neglected to read that one.
Well done on first post !
The one I enjoy is a bit different from the dumb spandex wearing underwear fetish superhero comics, but conceptually more challenging fare. one real masterpiece of the comics medium I have seen in recent times is The Smartest Kid On Earth. It's an almost oppressively bleak look at the commonplace estrangements that make up much of modern life. There is a leavening of black humour however, and the outstanding art is a delight in itself.
Mucho recommended
[ I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance ] -- Isaac Asimov
Don't get me wrong: I'm a lifelong fan and reader of the medium, I've done a little on the creative end of it as well, and continue to do so as an avocation. But it is not (yet) a phenomenon of mainstream media.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I just wonder are comics part of the growing trend within drama and literature to 'spice up' the story, by adding in shall we say supernatural elements.
For instance many new shows star vampires, dead people, are set in space or have oodles of compuers and special effects lathered all over them. Which isn't to say that some aren't good. Similarly, there arn't a lot of comics just about regular joe bloggs action. Much more likley to find mutants or flying superheroes than cops and robbers. Dick Tracey was phased out for superman, MacGuyver for Star Trek.
Personally I think people prefer to have the added spice of exotic setting or characters. It's OK, but I think a lot of modern pop culture is being sold on the cherry topping alone by exec types catering to the L.C.D. Which isn't to say good stuff isn't there. It's just that old signal to noise ratio falling again.
It still enjoy a good old fashioned detective story, complete with mudane setting and plot. I just gets more riveting!
May the Maths Be with you!
I find graphic novels paint a mood in an instant without resorting to pages of descriptive text. In an fleeting moment, you can sum up the scene perfectly. Try doing that in a full page of text.
:P
There is also the fact that the graphic novels are usually serialised, thus keeping the interest from one issue to the next - not a constant build-up and single climax as with most "modern fiction".
It also seems easier to spot reused plots in graphic novels
"We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over." - Aneurin Bevan
Comics will never become novels any more than a bicycle will become an airplane.
What's happening is that comics are becoming more popular while novels are declining in popularity.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Is it that comics are growing in popularity for our "dumbed-down culture", or that Hollywood - having run out of new ideas long ago - has renewed interested in comics because they're remaking so many comics - both new and old - into movies?
Is there a comic version of this NYT article? My attention span and imagination is limited by the number of colours in comics..
http://efil.blogspot.com/
No. Sure, I'm echoing an AC's sentiment, but here, I'm not being a jackass about it.
if Comics really were an influence in American culture, then why is the industry itself in the shits? If it wasn't for comicmovies, Marvel probably would've filed for bankruptcy AGAIN. I'm looking here and seeing bankruptcies in 1996 and 2002. That's not healthy under ANY measure.
Not just that, but I've been observing the comics industry, and I'm sorry to say that it's devouring itself alive. Alternative book saren't selling, so they have to really press on old, rehashed characters, which inturn turns off non-geek types who'd normally be turned on by alternative books.
They're playing only to thier base, which is getting smaller in terms of population percentages rather than try to diversify. I mean, I'd hate to say it, but the American industry could learn a thing or two about the Japanese industry. Not by using big eyes and other cliches(like Marvel did, fucking mangaverse bullshit), but rather, instead by trying to diversify the market to the point where there's a story for everyone, published in a cheap, easy to access form. Japanese monthlies are about 600 yen(about 5 bucks, I think, it's been awhile since i've priced the bigass phonebook style compilations, i'm probably off base here) and come with between 10-20 or so stories. Some publishers even run weeklies. In America, for about that much, you can get two seperate books which probably havee thick, and I mean THICK, continuity. And you're stuck with ONE genre. Super-hero action-adventure. Even though most compilations are typically gender/themed(Nakayoshi comes to mind, where SailorMoon and MKR was published), you tend to get a mix of stories.
Not to mention that those books play to only one group, and those are the comicbook fanboys. As much as comic books are for supposedly for kids, these days they're more for 15-20something fanboys who tend to do poorly socially(my crowd, I never got the whole comic thing though).
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Why oh why did I sell off my first run of Darknight and Fish Police so many years ago? Can't you just let me forget my pain? Sure, I had to eat and was broke, but oh please stop reminding me of it!
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
Another nifty graphic novel well worth checking out is Spooked by Antony Johnston. He's not so well known (yet), but does some really cool and atmospheric stuff.
He said, "That's right. It make things a lot easier and cheaper."
There you go.
Why do all the old line types insist on trying to make any media that is more visual typcast as being less intellegent. Every mass media goes thru a few stages in it's evolution. 1-"Golden age"-Only the elite have access to it, so it is focused towards the interests of the elite. 2-"Silver age"-Less lofty in content, but popularity grows rapidly, usually this is when people say it will "revolutionize the way people communicate" 3-The "Porn age"-least lofty content as the money guys come in and the lowest common denominator is applead to 4-The "ho-hum" age-the media becomes an acepted part of everyday life and overlooked. Print, radio (one with am, once with fm)the internet, and each iteration of the media (like, print went through it with paperbacks, then again with desk top publishing, the internet went thru it with the first net, then with wireless) it haapens again and again, now it's comics turn. Tv went thru this twice, once with broadcast, once with cable, then a minor progression with satlletit, and again with digiatal cable.
http://www.geocities.com/sethseekstruth/great_out
I think that's a bit harsh for novels and graphic novels. Some of the comics cited above are difficult, intelligent stories with involved character development and a good story to tell.
Please, are you kidding us? I read Batman: The Dark Knight Returns which was okay, but at the back it already admitted they basically made up the last two parts on the fly under pretty intense deadline pressure. And it shows, similar to the way Coleridge's Kubla Khan took something of a dive after he was bothered out of his drug-induced state and the dropped his inspiration -- except I'm not sure Dark Knight part 1 is exactly Coleridge at his best.
Look, I enjoyed Spider-Man vs. Wolverine as much as the next fellow and I'm glad comic book characters have outlets to behave a little more maturely than they do in a short monthly comic, but if you want to find great mainstream literature these days, take a look at Umberto Eco or Toni Morrison, not Frank Miller, please. Graphic novels are perhaps better called the new graphic novellas; they simply aren't replacements for 200-600 pages of truly great writing.
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
Sadly I find our culture is all about working too much and not having enough free time to have a real culture. No wonder we have an attention deficit, we can't even sit down and have fun that the week end is already long gone.
AKA, "The Last Titan." It is hands down the best comic I've ever read. It is dated 2002, but it must have been a series. I've not seen any others in it (if it is), but the one concerning The Hulk sucked me in like no other:
The End: The chronicles of the final days of earth's mightiest heroes and villains. Marvel comics and the creators who defend the characters tell the stories that were never meant to be told.
If you're a comic book fan/marvel fan/hulk fan then you gotta run, not walk, and get this one....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
My attention span and imagination is limited by the number of colours in comics..
Heh. [sarcasm]Most comics nowadays are done in full digital colour (usually with Photoshop), so if you consider an attention span of the full CMYK range to be short, you've got high standards indeed...[/sarcasm]
(grrr..stupid bloody slashcode doesn't allow entities...I can't use angle brackets, dammit)
I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
Good article in itself, but definitly flawed since it's not half of the story. You've got to look to birthground of comics, Europe, for the most interesting part of the story. Comics have been mainstream in Europe, especially in Belgium, France and The Netherlands, since long. Check out Lambiekhistory of Dutch comics and the The Comiclopedia.
that depends on what you're looking for in literature. if you're looking for great prose and a mastery of the english language, you're absolutely right. you're going to find that in umberto eco and toni morrison and not in a graphic novel. however, if, as the previous poster cited, you're interested in a complex, interesting story and character development, you can find that in the watchmen, transmetropolitan, or any of a number of other comics. graphic novels are almost totally a different artform than literature, and i don't think it's fair to compare the two.
-ninjaneer
How do the sales figures of comics compare to popular novels?
"Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth" sold 100,000 in hard cover. I think Harry Potter sold a few more, even before the movie was made which I'm sure helped sales.
Now, I know what you're saying "Fudgefactor7 has gone off the deep end...again," but hear me out.
A novel, let's say has 100 to 200 thousand words, and about 400 to 600 pages, all text. It's in a readable language (for instance, English) and has characters, development, a plot (one hopes), evokes moods (like anger or sadness or joy). It's a difficult thing to write a good novel.
By comparison, a graphic novel has to accomplish roughly the same thing in fewer pages (ususally there are 22 pages in a single issue, and usually no more than 20 issues in a miniseries, thereby making the number of pages no more than 440 pages, at the very most.) This, naturally, will not be all text, but mostly images with some sparse text and narration bubbles. The mood of the comic is depicted not by a paragraph of words, but by imagery. Choosing good words in a nvoel is hard, yes, but an image is worth, as they say, a thousand words--you have to get it right. And you have to get it right every page, every panel, every frame. In a written text, you can be given leniency in word choice, you can break the mood for narration purposes, or as a flashback--in a graphic novel, you can't ever break the mood or you lose the story and potentially the reader.
In a way, you have to deal with style and substance instead of style over substance, that a tratitional novel has as a restriction.
Plus to make a good graphic novel you have to have a good writer and a good artist. With a traditional novel, you need only a good writer (which sometimes is hard enough.) Combinations of good writer and good artist are magical when it comes together, and an abomination when it does not.
Finally, a traditional novel, if it sells 100000 copies is a pretty good deal, but that few comics can mean the death of an entire series--millions are printed and many more need to be sold just to make the publisher more happy. And on top of that, the creativity of a comic has to be repeatable throughout the entirety of the storyline, over months of work; a traditional novel only needs to be initially creative and not necessarily creative throughout. (How many of you read a novel that started great, then immediately became a rehash of some other, better, idea? I know I have. Sure, comics fall prey to this as well--as is evidenced by the amount of crud out there--but by far they're a more creative and vibrant force than the "real" authors in the bookstore.)
That's my 2-cents anyway...
Well... It all really depends on where you are reading comics. Am leaving in Ireland now. And here, it's impossible to get people to realize that comics is not just for kids, silly simple minded stuff. To be honest I failed systematicaly in trying to explain that. I am actually from France. In that place the main stream of comic sale is targeted to adults. Not always light easy-goi'n stuff, meaningless, efortless.
I strongly disagry with this idea it's necessarily easy. One example only. Read the Meta-Baron caste by Jorodovski and Jimenez. Read especially the out-of-serie issue of this saga. You will notice that comic scenario can be quite complex, deeply rooted into theories (psycho-analysis, social...). The drawings are nothiong fare from art. Read about the way Jimenez things about front pages as paintings before starting. The inspiration he got from samurai times, mixed with soap-opera style... I discovered in amsterdam he draws the nun after Brugel. I think it's quite interesting.
No. Sorry, no, comics can be rather demanding in understanding. About previous example, I'd say you probably need a 3 reads before you kind a get an overall picture. And this is just one example. Right now I think about others comics dealing with human being identity, genetics, cloning... I can't help thinking for some BD's (comics in french), as pieces of art, with the same insight that SF can have.
A bit the same way information is turned into something ridiculous on TV, comics can be as well. It's just up to us no to make crap out'a good things. Likely as well, if you'r brain-dead with not an inch of background stuff, you won't even see the richness, the references...
I don't know why in france, comics are considered as adult material as valid as any other books can be.
Maybe the article author is dumbed-down? Or else he's making a paper on sales, which is pretty irrelevent to what comics are.
Ciao ciao.
Back in the early 90's my comic book collection was worth a small fortune.
But since Marvel decided to resurrect dead characters and produce the future versions of their super heroes, they flooded the market with to many titles and almost caused Marvel to go into bankruptcy.
Is it that comics and graphic novels have "risen into mainstream culture" or is it more that the traditional fans of comics and graphic novels are "coming into their own" as a powerful force in our society?
I, for one, hope it's the latter (I've always enjoyed what my dad used to call "them funny books", but I never considered myself a part of the "mainstream" of society...of course, we geeks have been gaining in popularity of late...); it might mean the difference between being "ahead of our time" and it finally being "our time"!
(also: I, for one, welcome our new graphic-novel-reading overlords. Sorry, I just couldn't resist!)
This space intentionally left (almost) blank.
One of the best graphic novels I've read is Kingdom Come. Beautifully painted artwork and awesomely allegorical plot.
Mass appeal and dumbed down? Whomever said that quote must not have read Pride and Prejudice, any of Dicken's works, or any major novels of the colonial era. Those books had required attentiveness, were widely popular and were sufficiently by many classes of society.
Have I misread or is this quote totally off-base when referring to novels?
-Alex
Here you go Slashdotters, my two cents. I'm sure you'll have some good criticisms of this letter as well:
Well, you're going to find it in Umberto Eco's translator, anyway. Umberto Eco is Italian and writes in Italian.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
Why can't they just be different media suited to different modes of expression?
I liked Sandman a lot more than I liked reading Toni Morrison. Other people might feel the opposite. Neither opinion is more or less valid.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Here's a review of Sacco's Palestine if anyone's interested.
"Comic books are what novels used to be -- an accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal ..."
I never realized that "accessable" and "vernacular" defined a novel. Amazing. As far as I can tell, oral stories, pictograms, comics, graphic novels, novels, poems, and other forms of storytelling have been around since the dawn of time.
This isn't a failure of "the American conception" of anything, it's a failure of Marvel Entertainment's marketing department. It's their job to explain to potential advertisers the target market for their product, and to solicit advertisements to which the readers of that comic are likely to respond. Either Marvel's marketing is screwing up and soliciting "8-year-olds" ads for comic books with a mature audience, or your perceptions that these plot lines are written for someone older than eight are inaccurate. It doesn't have anything to do with some sort of failure on the part of the American public.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
It is about time people like Bendis and Stan Lee get credit for creating the wonderful works. If I compare comics to the numerous trash magazines, I'll take a good comic any day.
Maus (which won the PULITZER prize) is one of the most powerful books EVER written about history's worst crime, The Holocaust.
Just because it's a "comic-book" does not mean it is "dumbed-down" or any less than a novel. Is "The Godfather," "Gone with the Wind," "Lord of the Rings" or "Shrek" any less of an art form because it is in motion picture form as opposed to the written word?
Maus is amazing. My dad got it for me in 7th grade and I have re-read it more than any other book is history.
Video is more likely to replace mainstream novels than comic books.
More people watch TV than read (sadly), and given another decade or two, we should all start having a very portable way to view video directly from the net.
I think comics may well be supplanted by home-brewed animation. A technically literate illustrator can create his own animated short in about the same amount of time as it once took to complete a monthly comic, using today's tools. As the tools evolve, it may become even easier. (Right now, programmers still don't seem to fully grasp what it is artists need from their tools. But more and more traditional artists are finally beginning to cross over into the digital medium, so I expect they will make themselves heard, and the tools...and the content... will improve.) We are also seeing more and more hybrid electronic formats, which look less like comics and more like animation all the time.
Forget dead trees. We will all be publishing ourselves electronically before long.
The cover, and a continuation page inside are a multi-panel graphic introducing the article. I didnt get the duck.
Congrats motherfucker! FP! rorororororo1 fapfapfapfapfapfapfap
Take From Hell. It delves into everything from the various secret societies and royal entanglements of 19th Century England to a study in western mysticism and man's perception of time. That it's accompanied by pictures doesn't diminish it's weight. That it was turned into a slasher movie with terrible British accents is unfortunate.
Certainly most comic writers aren't as good as Alan Moore, but most novelists aren't as good as Umberto Eco.
As for Dark Knight Returns, I'm a big Batman puss and get all weepy at the end where he says "This will be a good life."
come for the naked robots, stay for the zombies
Honestly, it seems that the writer of the NYT article missed two very important points: one, Gaiman's work (but someone's already mentioned it here), and two, "comic != graphic novel".
I don't consider Maus to be a "comic" - it told a moving if troubling story using both verbal and non-verbal language. It was a brilliant combination that allowed the writer/artist a way to use some of the features of allegory a la Aesop. To me, works like Maus, ...Dark Knight, Lone Wolf and Cub and the Sandman series aren't "comics", rather they borrow their visual language from comics.
The writer, though, equates "comics" with the Hulk and Spiderman, howling that Western Culture is about to collapse because people don't read material he deems "worthy" nor do they do it often enough.
I read novels, comics (although with the recent "EXTREMIFICATION!" of Marvel lately, I've stopped reading nearly every title of theirs) and graphic novels. But I guess to be a proper culture snob in 2004 you have to be some kind of weird elitist Luddite.
- Jack
For those not very familiar with recent graphic novels (or have only heard of manga or the superhero genre) here's a great place to begin: Nowhere Girl.
I'd love to hear other Slashdotter recommendations!
Europe has a very long tradition of doing great comics, to say the least.
I think we should thank Heavy Metal magazine for bringing attention to quality European comics and graphic novels, even if what we see in Heavy Metal is strongly adult-oriented. I remember reading an English-translated Barbarella serial there, and it was vastly more interesting than the movie.
By the way, Disney comics published by their Disney Worldwide Publishing (Italia) division are extremely popular and well-regarded in its native Italy and in translated versions sold in France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands and in the Scandinavian countries. If you can get a hand on Topolino, PK3 or W.i.t.c.h. (the original 60 page per issue Italian comic), you'll note just how superb European comics can be.
How can they say that graphic novels are a dumber version of a standard novel. I mean for take a look at Christopher Pike or any other of those "turn out a book every week" teen mystery novel series. Spooksville - The Haunted Cave, Final Friends - The Dance.
Are those novels deeper and more thought out than graphic novels or Manga?
What really stinks about comics are the way the one genre of teenage masturbatory power fantasy has taken over everything. I quite enjoyed those as well, but if 97% of the marketplace recycles the same plot pieces then it gets really boring. Imagine how boring a world with 97% of one genre of music would be (rap/country/classical). Whatever appreciation you had for the genre will die in over-exposure, simplistic plot lines without end, and just plain ennui.
Looking at movie storyboards (and by extension movies), it's curious why they're so varied in content while comics come no where near that level of diversity. As much as I like Alan Moore's Watchmen and Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, they aren't really groundbreaking. They use some variations of the suparearo genre that aren't typically allowed (aging characters, indifference to humanity, continuity ended).
There is a spark left with titles like In the Shadow of No Towers, 52 Timil Deeps, Larry Gonnick's Cartoon History series.
I just wish it didn't seem like the whole of mainstream comics was awash with variations on the 47 plotlines dealing with superpowers.
1. Watchmen (yes, finally gotten around to it)
2. Lucifer (the first 3 trades)
3. V for Vendetta
4. The Goon: Nothin' but Misery
5. Miracleman (Don't ask me how I got a hold of it... obviously through sinister channels)
I dislike the superior tone, "dumbed down, etc..." Especially as I also read regular books. I just finished Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson, which is not a novel but was still interesting. Besides, when I go to the science fiction shelf at my local Borders, I see way too many novels with things like Star Trek or Dragonlance in the title. This bothers me, even though I've read a few that were interesting. I think that something like V for Vendetta is comparatively intellectual.
Oh, from years back I have three E. C. library's (two horror, one miscellanious) which are interesting reading. I don't think you can get them any more, and they were kind of pricey anyway.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
I think what really hurt comic books in the USA was Frederic Wertham's infamous book The Seduction of the Innocent. The fallout from that book came within a hair's breadth of killing off the comic industry altogether in the USA.
If we did not have the crusade against comics caused by that book, it's likely that comics in the USA would be a hugely viable medium right now, with the level of popularity that you would get in Europe, where comics have a long and distinguished history, especially in France, Belgium, Holland and Italy.
That only applies if your text isn't HTML formatted, and I wanted to quote his post.
I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
The New York Times Magazine cover story this week is a (typically) long feature about the rise of comic books and graphic novels into mainstream culture, with writer Charles McGrath (former editor of the Book Review) stating: 'Comic books are what novels used to be -- an accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal ... perfectly suited to our dumbed-down culture and collective attention deficit.' McGrath cites ...
Ooohhhh, Chocolate!
C8H10N4O2 | Developer > Code
Evidently the writer of the article has never spoken with an artist who has actually worked from Moore's scripts. Even the ones who haven't gone insane or quit due to the stress will attest that the level of detail Moore includes makes the job incredibly difficult. I think it was Eddie Campbell who admitted that he had his wife go through the scripts for From Hell and highlight the parts he actually needed to read.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
in the dark ages, when only the religious ruling class could read. Hmmm, if religion is the opiate of the masses, then graphic novels must be the new marijuana...
If I recall correctly, many of Dickens novels were seialized in the newspapers. They weren't considered "high culture", but the popular culture of the day.
Funny how you managed to pick what may be the worst example of those listed to make your case for why graphic novels aren't as good as "mainstream" literature. While I also thought that "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" was pretty good, it's not the best of that lot and it's not even the best Frank Miller story. "Sin City" and "300" are better.
A good graphic novel really proves that a picture is worth a thousand words. Take "Jimmy Corrigan" as an example. Whole pages worth of panels go by without a single word of dialog, and it isn't needed. The sense of loneliness and isolation of the main character is so strong that adding words to the scene would just get in the way. The best graphic novels are all like that.
Look, I enjoyed Spider-Man vs. Wolverine as much as the next fellow and I'm glad comic book characters have outlets to behave a little more maturely than they do in a short monthly comic, but if you want to find great mainstream literature these days, take a look at Umberto Eco or Toni Morrison, not Frank Miller, please.
Well there is your problem right there. Like a lot of others you obviously still think comic books are just about superheroes. There are a lot of other comic books out there these days that have absolutely nothing to do with super powered people in funny costumes. As for "mainstream" literature, I have read both Umberto Eco and Toni Morrison and enjoyed them. I have enjoyed some graphic novels just as much. When it comes to literature, I have a variety of tastes and I don't see why I should limit myself based on someone elses idea about what constitutes real literature.
I think while it's true that reading books may have declined, it's a testament to the medium's durability that it has already survived movies, TV, the VCR and DVDs.
More importantly, however, I think that the internet has ensured that the written word (albeit S0mT!meZ badly written) will survive although maybe books as a medium will suffer despite this. I actually think this combination of factors (survival of books, resurgence of the importance of text for communication thanks to the internet) means that it's unlikely animation will ever completely replace static comics. (Has film replaced painting?)
More likely the revolution will be in the distribution and production of comics, while their form will still hold appeal for many. Anyway, just my thoughts.
http://www.we-the-people-book.com/
Comic books are well out of the standard superhero genre as well.
We just want LOTR in a graphic novel form. To hell with reading.
I challenge the author of this article to read Nausicaa by Hayao Miyazaki and come back and say that graphic novels are dumbed down versions of novels. Nausicaa has the same feel and power as Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
There are a lot of non-mainstream, non-superhero comic series out there that are absolutely great. The one that jumps to the front of my mind is Red Star. I highly recommend it, its put out by an independant publishing company, like a lot of the good comics these days. If you're not into the typical superhero stuff, go to your dealer and see what he has from non-mainstream and indie publishers, you're bound to find something you like....
I mean for take a look at Christopher Pike or any other of those "turn out a book every week" teen mystery novel series.
I certainly won't defend any of the series you're talking about, but Christopher Pike wrote at least one serious novel for adults, "Sati". It's a really good book and will probably make you think a little -- much better than you'd expect from someone who churned out trashy teen novels.
I hope folks don't take Tintin seriously. At least early Tintin is hella racist.
Biting:
Early Tintins are bad. They're an unfortunate reflection of the attitudes and conventions when they were written. In the first ones African people in particular get the Sambo treatment, with big red lips on almost gorilla faces.
But Herge gets past it. You can read Tintins and see him develop as a storyteller and forsake that kind of easy stereotype. His stories depend less on coincidence, the characters become deeper and the comic relief is pushed further into the background, and in some of them there's a subtle progressive politic to it.
Is it really on the rise? I thought comic shops were all on the brink of bankruptcy, much like video arcades. In fact, Marvel filed chapter 11 a few years ago (only to be saved by several movie license deals).
I don't get it. I keep hearing comic books sales have been in the gutter.
Back in the 80's, I remember mom&pop comic stores all over the place. Most of 'em seemed to last a few years, and then went under. Given all the speculation in the comic book market, some of us thought that comic books were the modern day equivalent of tulip bulbs (remember, we hadn't yet seen what would happen in the 90's with dot-coms).
And then the Internet came along, and either the bottom dropped out of the comic book market, or else comics were just so completely overshadowed by the net that they dropped completely off my radar. I'd be surprised if it wasn't both, as most of my comic-collecting friends became instant Internet fiends and really didn't have time for comics.
Things in the comic world seem to be picking up again judging by the number of comics-inspired movies that have come along in recent years. But I still don't see any comic shops opening up, and I don't know anyone who collects anymore. Given that, I'm pretty sure that comics won't supplant novels anytime soon.
Maybe movies are another good indication of that. Yes, there seem to be more comics-inspired movies lately, but if you compare the number of movies based on comics over the last n years to the number based on novels in that same period, I think you'll find that movies based on novels outnumber those based on comics by about 25:1.
I believe my point of contention was with this part of the /. article:
... and then continued comparison to past novel writers in this thread's OP:
/. article and the OP are trying to push graphic novels into the same round hole of [often serialized, which I believe is part of why this cxn is being made] novels that are now easily part of the literary canon. 2.) There are certainly better heirs apparent to the "accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal" imo (granted I didn't touch on this at all originally) than the graphic novel.
Comic books are what novels used to be -- an accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal
I'm pretty sure someone was saying that about Dickens in his day.
Within this, there seems to be two implicit issues. 1.) Both the original
Taken together, let me say that I simply explicitly disagree with the implied notion that graphic novels are taking over the spot originally held by "novel novels". Great authors are still writing novels that are great (aka "literature" in my book) and some are still hitting the mainstream culture with great success, of which I named two authors off the top of my head. Secondly, even within this ill-fated comparison, there are better pretenders to the crown -- the Silent Hill series comes to mind as a well-told story that's been quickly soaked up by the mass market, I imagine putting most every graphic novel to shame sales-wise. We should look to film and, in the future, Interactive Fiction, for the best fit in this category. Graphic novels are still a niche player in the field of general fictional stories.
Are graphic novels worthless? Obviously not, and your point is well taken -- I'm wrong to characterize them as simply mature outlets for superheroes. But are they "The New Mainstream Novels" as the NYT suggests and many here seem to believe? Certainly not. It would be wrong to believe an appreciation of the graphic novel is a good replacement for an appreciation of literatary novels. Heck folk, even Oprah's reading Tolstoy now. Get back on the bus.
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
To attempt to discuss comics as literature without so much as a mention of perhaps the single most influential person in the field is an inexplicable omission. I refer, of course, to Will Eisner, who for more than six decades (!) has helped shape comics in all their forms -- "comic books" (i.e., magazines), newspaper comics, and graphic novels. Such works as "To the Heart of the Storm" or "Family Matters" (to pick two at random; there are may more) rank with the very best of the form. And his book, "Comics and Sequential Art" laid the groundwork for virtually all subsequent comics theory and criticism (including McCloud, as I'm sure he would be the first to acknowledge).
At an age when many people could hardly hold a pen or a conversation, Eisner is still writing and drawing; he has seemed only to improve with age. Will Eisner is a national treasure, far too little acknowledged.
The telling of a story is a thing of wonder and joy. The medium is irrelevant. Or I should say, a story matched to it medium is a work of art to behold. The author of this article is making some massive assumptions. Manga is down played like it isn't literature. I will admit that much of it is like mass-market paperbacks in the scifi and romance genre. However throwing it out as a whole is doing the entire section a disservice. It is like saying all books published as paperbacks are not literature, because paperbacks are romance or scifi hack novels with no literary merit. The graphic novel is an up and coming medium for telling a story. It is halfway between a movie and a book. And as such it will take a place on the stage of history. You can talk about the small number of total sales, and the size of the base who read the books, and if you think it is shrinking, I think you need to step back and take a look. It isn't that the readership base is shrinking; so much as the competition to provide quality books is increasing much faster than the base of customers. In an industry that had a few major competitors, and is now packed with tons of publishers. Not to mention the huge invasion of Manga into the market. I have been reading these books since around 1994 or so, and I have consistently seen the availability of quality stories continuously increase. The variety of appeal has been widening, and growing. I can see the graphic novel stepping in to the literature market, and I think I will see it in my lifetime. It will definitely hit the main stream in my lifetime, because the biggest problem with industry is disappearing. That is the belief that comics are only for children. It was once believed that animation is only for children, and slowly over time it is changing. Comics will go the same way. Because it is the story which is important, not the medium.
What's worse was that many artists at the time bought into it. Scott McCloud once wrote (drew?) that old artists like Rube Goldburg didn't appreciate the trendy artists getting uppity and forgetting their "vaudeville" roots.
That perception persists even now. Jack Chick, the creator of those infamous Bible tracts, started making them to prempt the "Communists" and "Athiests" from stealing the hearts and minds of "Innocent, God-Fearing American Youths" via comic propoganda. To him, comics were a means to an end, not a medium worthy of respect in and of itself.
Those who complain about affect & effect on
was in written word form first. A novel by J.R.R. Tolkien, it is considered THE classic in fantasy. IMHO the film is good but does not quite match the book.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Oh, did you?
Ok, that's just weird. Looks like Slashcode's preview mode is FUBAR.
(ok, after a preview, both the quoted tags and the tags around the above paragraph didn't show--I'm going to try to post now, and if they show up, then the preview mode is definitely broken)
I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
In the US at least, manga's been accounting for a lot of graphic novel sales these days, and some books (like certain volumes of Chobits) have become bestsellers among paperbacks as a whole. There's been a general trend among manga publishers to skip individual issues altogether and go straight to small (and fairly inexpensive) graphic novels. Lately, I've been noticing the likes of Marvel and DC taking similar approaches to their own (non-manga) titles. Maybe this is the shot in the arm the industry needs...
Is this the same NYT which for a period of more than a year was practically tripping over itself to exalt everything that Art Spiegelman did? That guy could've signed one of his kid's used diapers and it would have gotten a rave in the Times. Now we learn that Maus is "dumbed-down" history for troglodytes with ADD. What changed?
Shee-it. I read Maus in serial form when it was originally published in Raw. It (and Raw itself) was intellectually stimulating, vastly UN-like most of the novels published today. Admittedly, it isn't high art, but it never purported to be.
Finally, maybe there isn't such a vast schism between "real literature" and comic art -- Thomas Pynchon did appear on the Simpsons, didn't he?
of course, this begs the question: were novels *ever* mainstream? if so, when? perhaps this question just demonstrates my ignorance of american culture in general. i know that i have always, and continue, to read novels, but my sister simply doesn't enjoy them. i don't know which is more indicative of society at large.
-ninjaneer
Eh? Ok, I give the bloody hell up...I've no idea how the grandparent managed to do that.
I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
Notably missing from the list is Neil Gaiman, the author of Neverworld and American God novels who also authored comic books such as the Sandman series.
Some of the comic books are not your grandfather comic books. The work of Superman book by (*shoot* the name escaped me for the moment, it may b Frank Miller) that was done in water color, was truly a work of art. None of those 40's and 50's simple images with simple expressions done with a thick pen. Comic books in the US are forever put down because they are "for kids". Whoever thinks so completely missed the fact that comic is a perfectly good medium for story telling and for graphical art. I also have to admire the artists for their persistence in using comic book as a format since you have to paint panels after panels of story line. I can draw several panels, but I have no patience of doing a complete book.
When the author keeps refering to "D.C. Comics" I just tune out the rest. Is basic fact checking gone at the New York Times? The company is "DC Comics" and has been for a good long while.
D'oh! I remember trying entities sometime in the past, and it not working at all. So I figured that the AC was doing something to get the angle brackets to appear as themselves, no entities. It completely didn't dawn on me that it was possible that entities have since been added to Slashcode. Which they have. D'oh!
I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
I think the article missed out on earlier attempts. Some of the comics listed at mid-90s would never have been considered or published if it wasn't for a set of earlier pioneers. Elfquest, self-published by Wendi and Richard Pini (WaRP) starting in 1977 and still selling today, being one of those.
There were many other "independent comics" around that time frame, most of which did not survive. They all had one aspect in common, the artists and writers felt that main stream comics were too "dumbed down." They wanted to use the medium in a more literary and artistic manner. Their successes proved that there was a market for such publications, without which I would not be sure the later titles listed would have been started.
I also suspect that the trend has been around longer than that. How many books have been sold in part for their illustrations? Pretty much every children book, plus more. As an example, Frank Baum's OZ books were helped in sale by John R. Neill's illustrations. (OK, not high culture, but it makes the point.) And what about "coffee table books?" The "A Day in the Life" series, the one were photographers all over America, and else where, all took photos on a specific day and the best were compiled into the final book, I doubt that series doesn't qualify as "culture" or "literature."
Man, I didn't know this was one of my hot buttons.....
I don't see things in black and white; I see the gray. Heck, I actually see in color, which makes things more difficult
I assume he just looks at the pretty pictures. He certainly can't read.
Basically, ampersand gt semicolon and ampersand lt semicolon.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Agreed. Furthermore, work of art does not always utilize the full color spectrum. Some of the great artists (like MC Escher) prefer to use pen/pencil and paper. The lack of full color use are compensated by the stark contrast in the art. Saying that if it is not in full color spectrum, it's not art is truly laughable.
You do realize that this is a common refrain of people who read only comic books and trashy novels? While these are valuable, they are far from the only attributes of a well-written novel. Reducing everything to "good characters" and "good plot" is a huge oversimplification. This is the sort of praise you'll see on GameFAQs ( "FF7 has a brilliant plot"), not the words of someone with good taste in art.
graphic novels are almost totally a different artform than literature
No, they aren't. They have the same roots, they do just about the same thing (a narrative, dialogue), except graphic novels are generally intellectually diluted and have pretty pictures. It is perfectly fair to compare the two.
Some guy has actually assembled all the toys from the Acme Novelty Company comics!
http://www.niemworks.com/else/acmetoys.html
"A picture says a thousand words"
Ain't this saying very true? A single frame of a graphic novel can describe or set the mood of the whole story while a literary novel needs up to 2 or 3 paragraphs?
I agree that puting words into pictures will also narrow the imagination of the reader, but this also allows the author to express his visions in the most obvious and clear way. Can you imagine reading the Sandman series as a novel?
You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.
I especially enjoyed the part where Batman touched Robin's junk liberally.
Seriously, that is a pretty damn good read. I have it in my closet and occasionally glance through it. However, I think the cartoon Batman: The Animated Series captured Batman perfectly. Only the first Batman movie rivals it. If you are a Batman fan, you HAVE to see the Mask of the Phantasm movie. Sure, it's a cartoon, but it's awesome. Not only do the characters actually bleed now, but you get to see a woman knee Joker in the nuts! Also, people actually DIE in the movie! The plot and character development (including Bruce Wayne) are brilliant. I would say it is the quintessential Batman portrayal.
If you find this post offensive, don't read it! THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING! I am what I am because of how apes behave.
I've been reading several comic books, mostly Japanese. I ordered the entire set of Love Hina books from Amazon several months ago, and lately I've been reading the latest Tokyopop books, such as Tsubasa and Gundam Seed: Mobile Suit Gundam
as i said in my previous post, there is more to literature than just characters and plot. for example, prose. comic books are primarily dialogue, so this doesn't come in much. however, i think you are forgetting that the "pretty pictures" frequently contain a large portion of the content. the images from a graphic novel are generally quite thought provoking, if the reader takes the time to really look at them. this is a major element of the comic book genre that is missing in the novel. certainly, the words of a novel can create a lot of interesting imagery, but the artist behind a graphic novel can give you a much better idea of exactly what he/she had in mind. it's different, and less interactive in some ways, but not necessarily dumber.
saying that graphic novels and novels are practically the same thing because they have narrative and dialogue as a basis is like saying that reading a book and seeing a movie are the same thing. they're both arts, but they take very different forms.
-ninjaneer
... that never mentions Cerebus the Aardvark when discussing graphic novels?
At the recent annual conference of the American Library Association, comics were being displayed in the exhibit hall alongside the traditional booksellers. There are serious discussions in the library world about the role of comics and graphic novels in reaching out to the reluctant reader, and similar discussions about comics in school curricula. So there are at least some folks who believe that comics can be part of a literacy program.
kc
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
I just read
Here's one done in Flash. While this is PNG and SVG.
No, the "new book" is "the movie". Once seen only in air conditioned theatres. Then in every living room. Now in the form of a DVD (smaller than a book) played on a DVD player (the size of a book)and increasingly over the internet. Next: Movie authoring software that takes a script (as you write it) and turns it into a 3-d movie or 4-d model where you can move the point of view ("camera").
Even documentaries like 9/11 are in the form of the "new book".
As a present day, comic writer (sorta), I've been exposed to quite a few resources online where people can get a START on webcomic production. Drunk Duck. Free site to join/read. some very nice comics here along with some that are obviously made by some 10 year old who just found MS paint on his computer
particularly good comics here are:
Earthbound
The_Gods_of_ArrKelaan
Nekko_and_Joruba
UNA_Frontiers
Inner_Res
BadBlood
Norm_and_Cory
GAAK
The_Adventures_of_Vindibudd_Superhero_In_Training
Labgoats
Buzzcomix-Another good source for online comic listings
Quicksketch-small community, but all handpicked. Also, very PG rating for people who don't like all the blood and gore
I think most people who've read comics much online know of the big ones like: Keenspot-Invitation only, but lots of good comics here...
Keenspace- Keenspot affiliate which allows anyone to host a comic...
By the way, I am not officially affiliated with the above sites. Like I said, I've been doing this comic stuff for a while now (reading them, and finally working on one.) Drunkduck and buzzcomix have been very useful to me, so for any of you out there trying to find a place to start, you could try there. also, if any of you need more comics to read, there are lots of good strips. humor, manga/anime, bloody, happy/pure, fantasy, sci-fi, whatever you want.
hope this was useful to someone out there.
Shrek challenges the human/machine relationship by presenting emotional characters that are to a large extent solutions to a set of equations.
This is not more stupid than the bulk of the artists' statements I see these days. Punch it up with some words like hermeneutics and "the other," and you get instant art.
Not to dispute that comics are still not part of the mainstream yet, but this spring while I was getting raped at the university bookstore I saw Maus mixed in with the text books with a class number under it. Unfortunatly I didn't write the class number down so I don't know what class it was required reading for
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
I started reading Marvel comics when I was about eight years old. Not only did they stimulate my interest in reading, but also in sketching. My friends and I competed over who could most faithfully reproduce Thor or the Hulk. Then we would go out to the playground and act out the characters. Of course, the other students thought we were weird -- which is fine, weird people are interesting!
Now, 30 years later, I still read comics. I recently discovered the old EC comics -- Vault of Horror, Haunt of Fear, etc. Wow! Now those are great comics! I'm gradually building up my Heavy Metal collection as well.
Hell, I'll never grow up -- which is good, as my kids and I can share all this cool stuff.
The other thing wrong with the theory is that hardly anybody makes graphic novels. I love the medium as much -- and probably twice as much -- as the next guy, but every time someone wants to float some of this "comics are mainstream literature" hullaballo, we keep talking about the same handful of books. Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns are rapidly approaching their 20-year anniversaries. Dan Clowes has done a lot of other things besides Ghost World -- I'd say the main reason it gets mentioned here is because somebody made a movie out of it.
For this medium to become properly "legitimized" in the mainstream consciousness, there has to be a lot more output on the level of the works mentioned, and we have to let go of this idea that something isn't worthwhile until Hollywood has optioned it.
Breakfast served all day!
"Scott McLoud, the author of a very helpful guide (in comic-book form) called ''Understanding Comics,'' "
A very appropriate typo.
First off, there is a major distinction between "comic books" in general, and "graphic novels" specifically. So, while "hardly anybody reads comics", sales of SOME of the better graphic novels are edging the half-million mark-- enough that (as the author noted) publishers are at least vaguely interested. Publishers don't care if no-one reads what they print.. as long as they buy the damn stuff. =)
You also evidently missed the comparison at the very begining to the Novel-- which went from "considered entertainment suitable only for idle ladies of uncertain morals" to the standard staple of the bookstore today. While the Graphic Novel is not yet a full blown phenomenon of mainstream media, it is GROWING.
As for the shelf space in bookstores, it is not "just starting"-- it is just starting to rise rapidly. Five years ago, Barnes and Noble hit our community (killing two beloved locally owned shops and one despised chain outlet). Four years ago, I was delighted to be able to pick up reprints of Watchmen and Dark Knight, since they had added one shelf row (36") in by the SF, just above the myriad ST books. There are now five such shelf rows of assorted graphic novels, with Manga adding five more and overflowing into a spinner display off to the side -- far less than, say, the 60 shelf rows for general SF, but comparable to the 10 for Star Drek novels.
Which raises your casual dismissal of the Japanese Manga series. Even though I'm an official Goddamn Yankee*, I find your attitude horribly provincial. Even with the Novel, an english-dominated literary form, some of the greatest classics are originally in other languages-- Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, and Flaubert spring to mind. While the Graphic Novel hasn't gotten out of the literary gutter yet, the Japanese have been working on it for a time comparable to the Americans. It should come as no suprise that some of what they've created isn't crap. Manga may be conforming to Sturgeon's law, but not all of it is... crud.
The Graphic Novel may still be in the literary gutter, but the whole point of the article is that it's starting to crawl out, so the mundanes might want to take a look at it.
( * : According to an amicable redneck neighbor of mine, a Yankee is someone from above the Mason Dixon line, especially from the New York/New England area. A Damn Yankee is one who comes down below the Mason Dixon line, and a Goddamn Yankee is one who comes down to stay.)
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
After "The Holocaust," I decided to insert "History's greatest crime" - just to see if some asshole (you) would pull an Israeli/Palestinian juxtapositon. Thanks for being so predictable.
Wrong on all counts. Have a nice day.
IT IS A GAME YOU CAN ONLY LOSE, AND IT MAKES US LOOK BAD. -- Bruce Perens
(ironically, as quoted on the bottom of this page.)
I just started reading American comics again (I read Japanese manga in Japanese if I want someting like that, in my younger years I read spiderman, batman, etc.), with Sam and Max, 1602, The Watchers, The Maxx, and getting around to reading Sandman (I've already read Dream Hunters and Death: The High Cost of Living). Other than S&M and Dream Hunters, I'm struck by how bad the art is - the interesting character designs and clean, efficent, and often (but not always - most of the popular manga in America is like that but not all the manga in Japan) stylish manga of Japan.
Granted, with the influx of manga, there's a lot of copycat garbage - I can say what I like about th art styles of the above mentioned comics, but they certainly have interesting plots (not that manga doesn't but often there seems to be a pretty high signal to noise ratio).
Someone commented that everyone reads manga in Japan. Which is partially true; even my girlfriend's father read Dragonball as it was coming out, but the Mainichi had a great article about how some of the baby boom generation of men were reading manga on trains rather than novels and that a lot of people found it quite dorky.
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
Incidentally rumour has it that the Batmobile in the upcoming Batman film looks like Miller drew it in Dark Knight (vaguely oscene, a steroid-engorged phallus type thing...) Let's hope the rest of the story's used, too. I wanna see the Mayor being eaten! :))
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
...perfectly suited to our dumbed-down culture and collective attention deficit.
Yup...
Back when I was in high school The smart kids would read Moby Dick. The average kids would read Cliff Note's Moby Dick. And the dumb kids would read Illustrated Classic's Moby Dick. With this dumbing down of the culture, it wouldn't surprise me if future Slashdot moderators are simply given the Illustrated Classic as the textbook itself!
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
... Transmetropolitan ...
Why do people like Transmetropolitan so much? I've read a couple issues (a friend of mine is a Manhattanite), and I just can't understand why people rave about it's social value so much. It's not bad, I guess, but neither is it something that I'd run around talking about.
May we never see th
...reminds me of that quote from the movie 'Legally Blonde': "Is orange the new pink?".
yeah, and VB is a programming language
The article also ignored the great Alex Ross, while making some snide jabs about cartoony art and writing style. Ross' oversized graphic novels feature wonderful, painted art with realistic figures. He also pairs with writers who aren't afraid of mature issues. In Dini's Peace on Earth, Superman tries to single-handedly put a dent in world hunger and fails miserably. People mob him and injure each other getting the food, government agents poison it to maintain their control over the people...this is not cartoony stuff. Waid's Kingdom Come is a telling of the apocalypse according to the Book of Revelation using superheroes. While there are some moments of levity in it, it seems like the author has overlooked a lot of things while making his point, which is biased fairly heavily against comics/graphic novels in general.
I agree. I guess I'm annoyed with this entire topic/forum because of posters that want to try and trump up the value of comics in some attempt to validate the time they've wasted reading them.
I guess they have their counterculture niche and it's important for social nitwits to moan and roll their eyes every time a new Zippy the PinHead comes out. Christ - comics suck ass.
Read a fucking book.
Are comics the new mainstream novels?
Is porn the new mainstream method of producing a baby?
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
(I suggest early Authority trade paperbacks, as since WildStorm got bought out by DC the quality has slipped. Hitman is also best in its earlier issues, IMO.)
Comics are one of the simplest means of storytelling there is (words and pictures) meaning there's a lot of dross out there, but a lot of stories which simply couldn't be told as effectively through pure prose. You can achieve special effects, manipulate the passage of time and provide backstory in ways film studios can only envy.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
So, you lump all fiction in with checkout line pulp, then say since the best comic books are better than this trash, they are therefore a medium worthy of academic and literary respect?
... of higher quality than traditional non-graphic fiction."
This is insightful?
"many of the most celebrate comics have writing that is
How you lump milennia of creative works together like that aside, medium cheerleading is pointless. It is a fact that comic books are newer than other forms of fiction, and it will take time for the possibilities and limitations of the medium to be learned and for masters of the art to emerge.