ESA To Study Human Hibernation

colonist writes "The European Space Agency (ESA) plans to study human hibernation for long-duration space voyages (a la 'Alien', '2001'). Although 'practical hibernation mechanisms are at least a decade away', ESA researchers will make initial inquiries into DADLE (D-Ala,D-Leu-enkephalin), an opium-like drug that triggers hibernation in ground squirrels and human cells. Other subjects of interest include dobutamine, a drug that maintains muscle, and the Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur, the only primate known to hibernate."

Comments

Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Study making smarter bears capable of space travel! They already hibernate.

Re:Alternative Idea

[TopShelf]

They could always use this bear as a test subject. He's already smarter than the average bear...

Re:Alternative Idea

[EMH_Mark3]

One bear over two is smarter than the average bear..

Re:Alternative Idea

[Matheus Villela]

No, bears can't hibernate.

In hibernation the animal will have the heart stopped, this doesn't happens with the bear.

Re:Alternative Idea

[MindStalker]

Not true. Generally in hybernation animals drop their heart rate significantly but it doesn't stop. Bears drop their heart rate from around 40-50 bpm to 8-12 bpm. Which is slighty above other animals, which often decrease to 4 bmp. But what makes bear hibernation unique is that its blood temperature only drops slightly, allowing it to wake up quickly.

This is still hibernation.

Re:Alternative Idea

[gantos]

Except that bears aren't considered primates.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

And? Who said only primates can go to space? Dogs have gone.

Re:Alternative Idea

[StalinsNotDead]

Yeah, but these are.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Matheus Villela]

That's the point, you can't wake up(by normal metods :D) an animal if he is hibernating because his heart is stopped -> this is the main definition of Hibernation.

Re:Alternative Idea

[ezzzD55J]

Only if the smartness distribution is symmetrical! However, one bear in two is indeed smarter than the median of smartnes.. :)

Re:Alternative Idea

[drinkypoo]

hibernation doesn't say diddly about the heart stopping . If the heart and/or respiration stops, you die due to lack of oxygen in the brain.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Matheus Villela]

Your sources are wrong:

'hibernation

n 1: the torpid or resting state in which some animals pass the winter 2: cessation from or slowing of activity during the winter; especially slowing of metabolism in some animals 3: the act of retiring into inactivity; "he emerged from his hibernation to make his first appearance in several years"'

In Hibernation the metabolism doesn't slow, the metabolism goes do zero, everything stops, an animal in hibernation doesn't need oxygen in the brain because the brain stops.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Jim Starx]

The heart slows, it doesn't stop. If it stopped the animal would die; that is the definition of death, your heart stops. As for the definition of hibernation, it's a state of regulated hypothermia. That is why bears are not technically hibernating, their body temperature doesn't drop, so it is not considered a state of hypothermia. That is also the reason why they can be woken up easly. Heart rate can be increased fairly quickly, but body tempature is a much slower process.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Bears drop their heart rate from around 40-50 bpm to 8-12 bpm.

wich is the exact opposite, of say, dancing at 300 bpm.

overclock j00r feet!

Re:Alternative Idea

[Matheus Villela]

Finally someone that not says that Bears hibernate :)

I think if the metabolism tends to zero so everything will also tends do stop, ain't this right?

Anyway I've made the wrong definition, thanks for correcting me ;)

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what this really is in English, but at school our teacher was always sure to remind as that bears don't hibernate, they just sleep (winter sleep?). Bears can wake up quite quicly in the middle of winter if they get hungry or if they are disturbed.

If an animal is hibernating, it will first need to raise it's temperature before it can "wake up".

Actually bear is mentioned also in wikipedia article about hibernation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernation

Re:Alternative Idea

[ChickenAintDone]

What is the stronger source, dictionary.com or random guy on Slashdot? Do you have a source to back up your claim that his source is wrong?

Re:Alternative Idea

[EMH_Mark3]

How dare you fight my semantical ranting with more semantical junk?

Re:Alternative Idea

[mandolin]

But what makes bear hibernation unique is that its blood temperature only drops slightly, allowing it to wake up quickly.

I don't suppose that is just because most hibernating animals such as squirrels are small and prone to loss of body heat, whereas a bear is comparitively like one big blob of insulation?

Re:Alternative Idea

[Matheus Villela]

How can someone believe in a source when it says things about "winter", it's isn't a question about a time of the year, it's clear about hostage climate.

Yeah, i've said wrong things, zero and somethings that tends to zero are diferent, anyway i was only trying to explain a simple thing, that a fucking bear doesn't hibernate.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Ralph Wiggam]

That's cool that bears can maintain a moderate body temp for months without eating. Having a huge layer of fat is usefull. That could be a new diet. You take two weeks off of work, go into hibernation in some lab, and have your body consume your fat gut while you sleep.

-B

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems, to me at least, that bears still fit definition #1.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Matheus Villela]

That's one of the reasons i've questioned the source.

Hibernation is diferent from Torpor state, a Bear enters in Torpor state, you can wake up a Bear, you can't wake up an animal in hibernation.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Ayaress]

Yes, you can. Just take it inside and warm it up a bit. You can also get reaction out of a hibernating rabit if you poke at it for a while. Its sluggish, and takes a good while to react, but they will react. Bears don't react rapidly, either. You can drag one out of its den by the legs, take blood samples, and weigh its cubs before they're awake enough to maul you.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, I wish you'd go back into hibernation.

Re:Alternative Idea

[cheekyboy]

they have found that patients that need heart replacements and that have to wait a long time for a new heart and end up waiting in hospital on a 'heart machine' actually end up not needing a new heart after 1-2 years, because if the heart RESTS for that long, it actually recovers very well and can operate again well. So in many cases, if their heart is utterly f00bared, they just go on a machine for a while, and the heart properly rests and gets healthy again.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot. What you're talking about would be some sort of suspended animation. Lots of mammals hibernate every winter and in no case do they stop needing oxygen to the brain, nor does their heart stop beating. Have you ever even seen a hibernating animal?

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

How bout we give the astronauts CAW union cards? It seems to promote a state of almost deathlike inactivity...

Re:Alternative Idea

[mitch_davis]

> You can drag one out of its den by the legs,
> take blood samples, and weigh its cubs before
> they're awake enough to maul you.

Gee, the things you have to do to get a decent mauling!!!

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

"You take two weeks off of work, go into hibernation in some lab, and have your body consume your fat gut while you sleep."

There was a psychiatric treatment used in the 70's called "Deep Sleep Therapy", which was essentially what you suggest. It was tremendously effective for treating obesity, to the point where some patients never ate again.

Re:Alternative Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Bears don't actually hibernate, the enter a state of "winter sleep". Unless of course my 10th grade science teacher was lying to me.

Women on long-term space flights?

[garcia]

Perhaps all long-journey astronauts should be women. There is a well known but seldom used gene present in women that causes immediate hibernation. It has been called the sex-gene. Once the word sex is mentioned the women immediately roll over and are asleep within seconds. This will continue until sex has not been mentioned for at least eight hours. If an automated speaker was constructed to force the sex-gene into operation every 6 or so hours the women should (in theory) remain unconscious.

Yes my gf reads Slashdot. No, I am not getting any tonight.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[thebra]

"There is a well known but seldom used gene present in women that causes immediate hibernation. It has been called the sex-gene. Once the word sex is mentioned the women immediately roll over and are asleep within seconds. This will continue until sex has not been mentioned for at least eight hours."

This has been known to have side effects such as headaches.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[PrvtBurrito]

Men, on the other hand have the opposite problem. They fall asleep immediately after sex. Interesting women fall asleep before sex, men fall asleep after sex. How was it we evolved again?

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[danormsby]

So that apple was spiked with a sex-gene eh?

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[HarveyBirdman]

Perhaps all long-journey astronauts should be women.

Controller 1: What happened?

Controller 2: Jupiter Two has exploded!

Controller 1: My God! What happened? Was there any telemetry?

Controller 2: Just a snippet of transmission.

Controller 1: Was it a distress call? What did you hear?

Controller 2: I heard Commander Janice shout "You bitch!" and then Lt. Sally say something about clawing out eye. Then there was just ten second of hissing and spitting and howling.

Controller 1: Oh no! They synchronized! The dreaded (looks around and whispers) full moon effect!

Controller 2: I thought we solved that with those pills?

Controller 1: Yes, but... (sighs) There were always unknows, and the Jupiter system... sixty-three moons!

Controller 2: We were bloody fools!

Controller 1: That's not funny, Bob.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[rffmna]

Hi

Sex-linked genes are expressed more often in males than in females, because males lack a homologous X-pair, and therefore recessive or sex-linked genes are expressed more often in males than in women. Women have about the same chance of carring, but not phenotypically expressing, the sex-linked genes.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why only interesting women?

Also, does this mean that all men evolved from rapists??

I certainly hope not...

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[kabz]

You have a girlfriend ?!?!?

Get off slashdot you insensitive clod !

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[mattjb0010]

Interesting women fall asleep before sex

I think you meant to say feign sleep.

How was it we evolved again?

Clearly, it was thanks to uninteresting women. This must explain my problems trying to find interesting women.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[iphayd]

I know I am replying seriously to a joke, but...

Women, with limited reproductive capability, have an instinct to protect themselves from unfit fathers.

Men sleep after sex to counteract the ability to reproduce with another female almost immediately after copulation, hence keeping the couple intact longer.

Of course society has come in and screwed us all up. Women now get pissed at us for sleeping, despite being a chemical reaction. Alcohol and Hollywood screw up what people consider healthy. ... and now back to your regularly scheduled topic.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[blackmonday]

Hi Honey, you're damned right you're not getting any tonight. Oh, and I need new shoes. We'll talk later.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your damn right you won't....

Dear

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[nusratt]

"Once the word sex is mentioned the women immediately roll over and are asleep within seconds."

And exactly how does this result in an absence of sex?

For that matter, for a lot of men, how would they notice the difference?

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[vidarh]

You must be incredibly bad in bed if you have that effect on women...

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[xutopia]

one reason could be that men had to gain strenght AFAP so it could go at it again. A woman once impregnated had to find food to feed herself and her baby.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[MindStalker]

Do you have any links to back this up. I definatly need to send this info to my wife.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[CausticPuppy]

Men, on the other hand have the opposite problem. They fall asleep immediately after sex. Interesting women fall asleep before sex, men fall asleep after sex. How was it we evolved again?

Because, technically, the woman does not need to be awake.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[MarsDefenseMinister]

Houston, we have a headache.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Alsee]

Then the solution is simple. Just hook male astronauts up to an "orgasmatron" that activates every 8 hours to sustain hybernation.

Hmm, that's odd...
The NASA website just registered a fifty-thousand percent spike in astronaut applications.

-

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[kgarcia]

Here you go

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[gamgee5273]

Man... guess my wife would be out of the running for long-term space flight, then. What a pity (for the space program, that is). :)

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[E_elven]

Men sleep after sex to counteract the ability to reproduce with another female almost immediately after copulation, hence keeping the couple intact longer.

You're implying that it's a biological imperative that men go to sleep. In general, all mammals are more or less polygamous -including humans. I would assert that the animal/biological instinct would rather be to have sex with as many women as possible in order to preserve the species.

If you want to argue a psychological imperative, however, you may be on more solid ground. In Freudian terms we can think of the polygamous desire as being something that needs to be repressed and the repression manifests itself in going to sleep right after sex in order to avoid impregnating anyone else. An interesting parallel subtopic would be whether it's more likely for a man to go to sleep if birth control has been used or not.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're lucky, in my experience, women fall asleep during sex...

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[kill-9-0]

Many times this requires a catalyst, commonly referred to as a "wedding ring". This may also be necessary for long-term sex-mentioning induced sleep.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[iphayd]

We have a chemical that is release at, or soon after, orgasm which causes us to be sleepy.

Men do have a biological instinct to have sex with as many women as possible, however, there are several reasons for this not to be an immediate occurrence, including disease control, and making sure the first woman is pregnant before going to the next (we're talking biological instinct). Sleep make it difficult to hop out of bed with one woman, and into bed with another in a very short timespan.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Andorion]

There's an evolutionary reason for everything :) Nice.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

"How was it we evolved again?"

Obviously, groups sleeping in cycles has additional benefit for lookout against predators.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[isorox]

Yes my gf reads Slashdot. No, I am not getting any tonight.

This is why I dont date girls that can read

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, does this mean that all men evolved from rapists??

Well, at first. . .

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's a theory now and that's cool. Desmond Morris has tons of such theories and they're fun, but they're nothing but speculation. You should be careful about stating such things as facts when it is just as easy to present it for what it is, which is an interesting potential possiblity which certainly has not been conclusively proven to be a fact. You can be interesting without insisting on being right. It took me a long time to learn that, but there's a lot of truth to it.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[robertjw]

Yes my gf reads Slashdot. No, I am not getting any tonight.

Appearantly you aren't getting any the rest of the time either.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Give me two women in separate beds, and I'll disprove your theory.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Women are better suited for space travel.
They can:

1) survive better G-forces
2) are physically smaller and lighter
3) able to get pregnant

Just one problem with all-female colonies however - they'd get lost on the way there.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

that's the funniest thing ever.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[E_elven]

Good point; perhaps another view might be that it's a sedative to prevent any 'mishaps'.

Both would of course require nature to be deterministic so they're utterly wrong. As always, nuances are very important when speaking of evolution so to reiterate for the doubters:

The correct explanation is that men who were sedate -and possibly in this way also more likely to stick around- were better capable of passing on their genes (and ensuring the passees stay alive and reproduce) which in turn in their children manifested in similar behaviour which in the course of millennia has become the prevalent trait.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[cft_128]

...the animal/biological instinct would rather be to have sex with as many women as possible in order to preserve the species.

My girlfriend's not buying it, she said something about worrying about my own preservation.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

With human females you can't easily tell what time of the month they are fertile, so you have a better chance of sticking with one for a month than you do moving around and having a different one each day.

In the first case you guranteed to be shooting at the right time of the month at some point, in the second you might end up missing on all of them. Most other mammals can tell when the female is fertile, so obviously their behavior is different.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Pieroxy]

It's just that certain (a lot of?) women, while they're enjoying making love, don't enjoy sex all that much. This stuff is somewhat mixed somewhere in their brain that if they didn't have a nice and romantic evening, they consider sex as some kind of abusive thing.

Don't ask me, I'm not a woman.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[modge]

I heard that men sleep after sex to stop them coupling with the same woman agian. Im nota ware the person who said it was taking the piss

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Hmmmm...People tend to fall asleep relaxing in a bed!

Read about this and other new amazing discoveries in this month's issue of the medical journal "Duh".

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[HarveyBirdman]

The stuff I edit until it's just right gets "overrated" down to -12, but the first draft quips I just toss out... THOSE get the +5. I tell ya, I'm in the Bizarro universe or something.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[jameskojiro]

If so will "Chota Boy" be the first astronaut to walk on Mars?

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[b-baggins]

Oh, please. What a load. The most unfit fathers will simply rape the woman. I mean, I know evolutionary theory is chock full of just so stories, but please, at least try thinking a little bit before making one up.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[b-baggins]

Yeah, right. Because we know that 8 hours is all the time we need to know for certain the first woman is pregnant before moving on to the next.

Good grief. Where do you people come up with this stuff. No wonder creationists just point and laugh at you guys.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder creationists just point and laugh at you guys.

Shame on me for biting, but at least he came up with a debateable theory. When was the last time a creationist came up with a debateable theory?

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, right. Because we know that 8 hours is all the time we need to know for certain the first woman is pregnant before moving on to the next.

Good grief. Where do you people come up with this stuff. No wonder creationists just point and laugh at you guys.

Or maybe sleep is needed because the guy is
tired out after doing a good job.

But you wouldn't know anything about that, would
you?

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Scarblac]

If you want to argue a psychological imperative, however, you may be on more solid ground.

No, because our psychology is just as much a result of evolution.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the word for having sex with someone when they're asleep?

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

>With human females you can't easily tell what time of the month they are fertile

Studies have show that at the peak of her cycle a woman is more likely to expose more skin, so in a way you can have a pretty good guess as to when she is fertile.

Also they smell (noticably) different during the time of the period - hense another way you can tell she isn't fertile at that time.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Pharmboy]

Its very easy, and I have said it before:

Women want ONE man to fulfill her EVERY need.

Men want EVERY woman to fulfill his ONE need.

That is pretty much all there is to it.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[badman99]

Smart :)

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[E_elven]

Evolution, yes. He was arguing a strictly chemical (biological) case while I asserted it might be a psychological one -at a high level there is a difference; low-level, of course brain activity is just chemical reactions.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[FleaPlus]

The hormone which is released after sex is called oxytocin. I can't find a good reference on its sleep-inducing effects (though its mentioned in several places), but here's a start.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[F'Nok]

Oxytocin also produces feelings of attachment and responsiblity for another.

Thus why it has been the subject of several studies into 'love'.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shame on me for biting, but at least he came up with a debateable theory. When was the last time a creationist came up with a debateable theory?

You forget:

God created debatable theories

We creationists laugh at your puny attempts.. ;-)

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Smork]

Welcome to slashdot dude :)

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

"In general, all mammals are more or less polygamous -including humans."

You wish...

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Give me two women in separate beds, and I'll disprove your theory."

Its easier and more fun when they're in the same bed (but harder to arrange).

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[hawkfish]

Men, on the other hand have the opposite problem. They fall asleep immediately after sex.

IIRC, this is a myth. About 40% of both sexes fall asleep after sex. But consider the cases. If uppercase represent awake afterwards, and lowercase asleep, then there are 4 of them:

MF - No problem.
mf - No problem.
Mf - No problem.
mF - Problem!

Hence the myth...

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Eternauta3k]

Actually, Orgasmo will, because Chota Boy will be the one firing...

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[jnicholson]

I would have thought the point would be to prevent the woman from sleeping with someone else, and then getting the first man to help with the raising of the child that isn't actually his.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Men sleep after sex to counteract the ability to reproduce with another female almost immediately after copulation, hence keeping the couple intact longer.

I'm too lazy to verify this by tracking down a reference, but I thought that male sleepiness after sex was a side-effect of some chemical that gets dumped into the bloodstream after male orgasm to bring down the erection more quickly. I thought that the chemical, what body part emits it, etc. were all well settled questions at this point.

In terms of evolution, no gene has a "purpose", but instead only effects on our mating history that cause certain genes to become more or less common. So, perhaps your theory about this chemical mechanism resulting in more protection of offspring or whatever could have something to it.

On the other hand, one could make the case that this chemical mechanism might make it easier to screw and run, and thereby facilitate cheating (adrenaline would counteract the sleepiness if need be).

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Men sleep after sex to counteract the ability to reproduce with another female almost immediately after copulation, hence keeping the couple intact longer.

I thought it was like the preying mantis or black widow -- males sleap after sex, so if the female is hungry she has a convenient meal.

Re:Women on long-term space flights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Men sleep after sex to counteract the ability to reproduce with another female almost immediately

More likely, men sleep after sex to _enable_ the ability to reproduce with another female quickly, by replenishing his sperm.

Studies have shown that for guys with low mobility a 'second batch' not long after the first ejaculation swim better. Sleeping lets the body focus on getting that next batch ready as fast as possible.

We must look to Teenagers...

[BongoBen]

for inspiration. They can sleep for days at a time.

Re:We must look to Teenagers...

[mpuhlenb]

Haven't they heard of Hibernol?

Re:We must look to Teenagers...

[aardwolf204]

Or they could just enable hibernation and hit Shift-H when shutting down. What, they dont have a hibernation function, fuck it, get em super-high and hope there arent any psyscho computers controlling the ship.

Re:We must look to Teenagers...

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the effect of a plant whose name is "cannabis indica", not some weird hormone-related stuff. Even if your kids says so.

If it weren't for my daughter...

[grasshoppa]

SIGN. ME. UP.

Hell ya, I'd go hibernate, and very likely get paid for it. Can you say, "Test subject"?

Re:If it weren't for my daughter...

[thelexx]

"and very likely get paid for it."

Hell, can you say "compounded interest"?! It's the ultimate get-rich-quick scheme, at least for the hibernator.

Re:If it weren't for my daughter...

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: Futurama!

Re:If it weren't for my daughter...

[Fred_A]

Inside sources report the hibernation project was started right after they installed Gentoo on their machines and did an emerge world.

Re:If it weren't for my daughter...

[Mr2cents]

So here's the plan, grasshoppa: You find out what restaurant delivers pizza's to ESA, you get yourself a delivery job there and wait for a delivery for "I.C. Weener".

Re:If it weren't for my daughter...

[ozbird]

Nice troll, but you forgot the "-e" - and the fact that this leads to a period of intense activity, not hibernation.
Windows XP has a "Hibernate" button, but it's hidden by default.

Wake me once they've perfected the procedure...

Re:If it weren't for my daughter...

[nlindstrom]

Nice troll, but you forgot the "-e" - and the fact that this leads to a period of intense activity, not hibernation.

That it does. After multiple failures which ultimately lead to having a system that can't even find its own MBR with both hands in a dark room, the user is finally forced to give up and install a real operating system, like Microsoft Windows XP.

Boring

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just the start of a decade long project. Wake me when they capable of making me sleep for a decade.

Good job ESA

[strictnein]

This type of research is the future of human space exploration, at least for the forseeable future. Sorry, but light speed, or anything near light speed, just isn't going to happen anytime soon.
The only downside to this is that the space traveler may seem like the trip only lasted a short time period, when it in fact took 10 years. By the time he gets back home his family will have aged 20 years. It actually may be the closest we get to time travel as well (want to see the future? just hybernate for 100 years).

Re:Good job ESA

[mirko]

Not everybody is attached to their family and relatives, some might even appreciate a century-time shift in order to refresh their relations.

Re:Good job ESA

[WormholeFiend]

By the time he gets back home his family will have aged 20 years. It actually may be the closest we get to time travel as well (want to see the future? just hybernate for 100 years).

I don't think hibernation prevents aging...

Re:Good job ESA

[Short Circuit]

You still age while you sleep.

Re:Good job ESA

[Billy the Mountain]

You often hear geeks lamenting the difficulty in achieving speeds that approach or exceed the speed of light. What people don't realize is that if you wanted to accellerate a spacecraft that didn't weigh very much, say a ton, to anywhere near the speed of light, it would take more energy than the sum of the earth generates in a day or week. Even if the spacecraft and occupants were composed of 100% fissile uranium, you'd still have trouble getting close to the speed of light. e=mc^2.

BTM

Re:Good job ESA

[kin_korn_karn]

Those people are usually in or just out of their teenage years and not emotionally or intellectually capable of space travel.

Re:Good job ESA

[kin_korn_karn]

no it doesn't! It just takes 3 rings spinning at odd axes!

Re:Good job ESA

[mirko]

Not especially, could be a soldier, back from a campaign, looking for something else.
Could be a divorced fellow, he'd be just okay with his loneliness but everywhere he'd go he'd meet his ex's relatives.
Could be a billionaire, got anything but a view of the future.
Could be me, I want to explore other times, even If it would cost me today (which I'd gladly give away for better times).
Telling that somebody who want to change of life is depressed is an insult to the likes of Columbus, Cortes, Magellan, Marco Polo...

Re:Good job ESA

[(54)T-Dub]

Yes, but it seems to me that the article inferes that hibernation could slow the aging process.
While talking about the drug DADLE

It also seems to send cultures of human cells to sleep: the cells divide more slowly and their gene activity drops when the molecule is applied.

Re:Good job ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

Any truth needs to be defined by a time frame. While what you say may be true, tomorrow we may find that we have discovered a way beat the speed of light.

The World was flat until it was round. The speed of sound couldn't be broken until it was done.

Afterall, the easiest solution would be to develop "Transporters" that transfer their data by light which would bypass all the physics that you were mentioning, even if I am just making up mine to justify my point.

Anyway...

Re:Good job ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

If we could travel at near-light speed, space travelers would also get the impression that the trip was short when it lasted years.

Re:Good job ESA

[Monkey-Man2000]

If that were true, it would be nice if this became so commonplace that you could "hibernate" every night for about 8 hours. Thereby, extending your lifespan by ~33%.

Re:Good job ESA

[ryanvm]

Not everybody is attached to their family and relatives, some might even appreciate a century-time shift in order to refresh their relations.

Fry, is that you?

Re:Good job ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

According to theory, traveling at "light speed or anything near light speed" would give the same result...

Re:Good job ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's Fry ? McFly's alter ego ?

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

Sorry, but light speed, or anything near light speed, just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Odd as it may seem, "something near it" isn't that big of a problem. What we need is lots and lots of antimatter, and working engines that use it. Now here's the difficulty: where do we get the antimatter from? We believe we can make as much as we need, if we just had enough power. Unfortunately, with a efficiency conversion of 0.01% (i.e. for every megajoule you put in, you get 100 joules worth of anitmatter.), we just don't have the power reserves here on Earth to create enough. What would be nice is if we had a super-powerful fusion reactor that could run for billions of years without maintenance. Now where are we going to find one of those...

Did you know that the Earth receives about 1.3kw per square meter from the Sun? If I did my calculations right, a station placed at about 0.1 au should receive about 1,387kw per square meter. If we were to construct a station with a power collecting surface the size of a football field (109.73m x 48.78m = 5,352m^2), it would receive about 7.4gw of power from the sun.

First we must assume that there is some loss in the power conversion method. Let's say the first station uses primitive solar panels with an efficiency of 20%. That leaves us with 1.4gw of power. Assuming that the station had the facilities necessary to transform all that power into antimatter, it would be capable of producing 148kw of antimatter per second, or about 12.8gw worth of antimatter per day! If more than one station was built, then antimatter production could be high enough to regularly send ships to Alpha Centauri.

Using this calculator, we find that at 1G of acceleration, we could reach 99% of light speed (relative to Earth) in about a year of acceleration. In that time, our ship would have traveled about .22 light years.

Would anyone like to check my figures? I'd love to make sure I'm getting those power figures correct. :-)

Re:Good job ESA

[nusratt]

I think there's more unintentional wisdom than you realize, in the fact that you chose to say "refresh their relations", versus "refresh their relationships".

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

Even if the spacecraft and occupants were composed of 100% fissile uranium, you'd still have trouble getting close to the speed of light. e=mc^2.

Actually e=mc^2 says we've got more than enough energy to spare. The problem is that fission only converts a small portion of the mater into energy. OTOH, antimatter could possibly give us enough energy to reach light speeds. That is, light speeds relative to Earth. From your own position on a space craft, you'd easily exceed light speed relative to the Earth. Of course, if you were to measure the distance in light years, you'd find that the distance between your source and destination had shrunk. Or did light speed up? Or did time dilate? That pesky relativity keeps getting in the way!

Even more annoying, is that your rocket fuel would grow in mass along with your ship, so you'd see no increase or decrease in your engines efficiency. Err... wait a minute. That's not annoying. That means that if you start out at 1G of acceleration, you can maintain 1G of acceleration at a constant rate of fuel burn! Woohoo! We found the loophole! (/enlightening sarcasm)

You might find my post on Antimatter drives to be quite interesting. :-)

Re:Good job ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

Futurama character

Re:Good job ESA

[2nd Post!]

And you'd wake up tired, irritable, and cranky, seeing as you only had 3 hours of sleep!

Re:Good job ESA

[Jim Starx]

I like how you describe only one part of your highly theoretical plan to be "the hard part". I love theory as much as the next guy, but converting from theory to application has never been easy, and that applies to all parts of it. :)

Re:Good job ESA

[Jim Starx]

From your own position on a space craft, you'd easily exceed light speed relative to the Earth

Not really. From your frame of referance on the ship the earth would never be traveling away from at a speed of greater then light.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

Believe it or not, the speed of light is easy to "beat". It's just a problem of "beating it" in some usable fashion.

For example, quantum tunneling allows a particle to travel faster than light for a mere instant of a second by stealing energy from nearby particles. In the end, however, it has to pay back the energy it used. This means that its net velocity never exceeded light speed.

On the more macro level, there is a theory that wormholes could be used to circumvent light speed. Unfortunately, no one knows how to generate enough energy, or where to find the "exotic matter" to create them.

Another (possibly even more credible) theory on FTL travel, is the Alcubierre Drive, often confused with the Star Trek notion of a "Warp Drive". Again, the core problem is that we have no idea where the energy for such a craft would come from.

If none of this suits your fancy, then just load up on a few kilotons of Antimatter, and blast off toward the edge of the Universe at 1G of acceleration. Thanks to the dilation of space-time, you should be able to reach the edge of the known Universe in barely a few years time! Of course, there's this slight issue with Earth no longer existing by the time you got back...

Good luck, intrepid space traveller!

Re:Good job ESA

[Abcd1234]

It may, actually. Assuming such hibernation significantly reduces the basal metabolic rate, it can be surmised that lifespan would likely be extended. For example, the lifespan of lab rats have been greatly extended by placing them on an ultra-low-calorie diet, and it is theorized that this increase in lifespan is due to the decreased basal metabolic rate resulting from such a diet.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

Surprisingly, my plan isn't all that far fetched. Fermilab has stated that the primary limitation to creating antimatter is power, and NASA has a wide variety of plans on the drawing boards for antimatter engines. One of them (utilizing antimatter-enhanced fission) is being constructed by NASA as we speak. The reason why the other engines are not being built is that there's no antimatter to power them. With our current supplies, a pure antimatter craft would never make it off the ground.

As for converting the Sun's energy into usable energy, I actually see that as being a highly feasible proposition. If I were an aerospace engineer (which sadly I'm not), I would look into converting the energy via Stirling engines or the like. These would automatically cool the station while generating power at a high efficiency. With a solar panel design, you'd probably need to rotate the station on a parallel axis to the sun (i.e. perpendicular to your orbital plane) to obtain the necessary cooling.

So how do we get the suggested station, or a smaller version, there? By building a space economy! Existing NERVA engines more than suffice for space travel, being at about 2-4x more efficient than current engines. Launch facilities could be made cheaper through large scale launches like the Sea Dragon. Using these methods, we could put large stations in orbit cheaply, use them to build ships, and then make an economy out of asteroid mining, tourism, military, and colonization.

The real "hard part" has very little to do with theoretical physics or engineering. The real "hard part" is solving the chicken and the egg problem of getting the funding and tonnage into space to begin with. No one wants to fund space travel until there's an economic incentive, but there will be no economic incentive until we get into space. Gotta love economics.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

*Ahem* I believe that's why I added:

Of course, if you were to measure the distance in light years, you'd find that the distance between your source and destination had shrunk. Or did light speed up? Or did time dilate? That pesky relativity keeps getting in the way!

We normally measure velocity as distance over time. If you were to use the distance figures given when you were on Earth, you'd find that you arrived at your destination faster than the speed of light. The problem is that you're mixing two frames of reference. If you were to take the measurements again from your spacecraft, you'd find that space-time dilated on you, thus decreasing your distance.

Relativity is very frustrating that way.

Re:Good job ESA

[kalidasa]

Sort of. See e.g. this link. I think the idea is that it slows aging, but not enough to extend someone's life enough for say interstellar travel. For that we'll need a combination of hibernation and anti-aging mechanisms and anti-disease mechanisms, or some kind of hard stasis (for instance, imagine if you had some kind of nanobot that could separate each individual cell, place each in indefinite stasis, and then reconstruct the whole after a very extended period of time).

Re:Good job ESA

[Tokerat]

The only downside to this is that the space traveler may seem like the trip only lasted a short time period, when it in fact took 10 years. By the time he gets back home his family will have aged 20 years

Thanks to Relativity, this will happen at near-light speeds as well. Light speed itself is impossible without infinite energy (or so is thought).

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

BTW, I think the calculator I used gave an incorrect distance traveled. I think it was running into an overflow situation and blew up. This calculator is a bit more accurate. A 1G trip of 4 light years, taking into account the deceleration at the half-way mark, gives the following results:

Trip length: 4.0 light years.
Acceleration: 1.0 g.
Time on earth: 5.614136130857504 years.
Time on ship: 3.460041443177856 years.

BTW, you all might be interesting in knowing how long a million light-year space-flight might take:

Trip length: 1000000.0 light years.
Acceleration: 1.0 g.
Time on earth: 1000289.2434369829 years.
Time on ship: 26.837453649066713 years.

Only 26 years! How's that for fascinating data! :-)

Re:Good job ESA

[Atmchicago]

Not everybody is attached to their family and relatives, some might even appreciate a century-time shift in order to refresh their relations.

And the corollary to that is: not everyone's relations wants to see some of their family members.

"Tired of uncle Bob hanging around the house too much, breaking things, and acting like a loser? Send him on a hibernation trip to Venus! Jupiter! Pluto! Alpha Centauri! Infinity! And beyond!"

You get the idea.

Re:Good job ESA

[jez9999]

I guess you just have to hope you don't collide with a comet/planet :-)

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

That's why you track all large objects in your way before embarking on your trip. Calculations can be done to find where the objects will be at what time.

Besides, space is a pretty big place. The chances for a collision with a large object are very, very small. As for micro-particles, one suggestion is to use ice for the skin of the ship. By flowing new sheets of water onto the skin of the ship, it can be constantly repaired from whatever damage travel inflicts on it. :-)

Re:Good job ESA

[GeorgeTheGiraffe]

And you'd wake up tired, irritable, and cranky, seeing as you only had 3 hours of sleep!

True, your body needs that time to repair all the routine daily damage--it would be just like getting 3 hours a night, and eventually you'd start falling apart!

Re:Good job ESA

[Roskolnikov]

If you hibernate for 8 hours, would you wake 'rested'
metabolic rate has something to do with this and dropping it.....

i.e. body regenerates/replenishes stored sugars, digests food/produces waste.

I am by no means a biologist but the thought does come to mind on this otherwise attractive idea.

Re:Good job ESA

[amightywind]

This type of research is the future of human space exploration, at least for the forseeable future.

For the forseeable future, human space exploration will be restricted to Mars and the inner solar system. With chemical propulsion one way travel to Mars takes about 6 months, with putative missions lasting 2 years. That is not a long time. Nuclear propulsion might reduce the time to weeks. Clearly hibernation is not necessary. Still hibernation research may be of value in other areas. One can imagine endless applications of hibernation therapy for cancer, burns, trauma etc. But it will have no direct effect on space missions this century. I would rather see the resources spent on developing adequate radiation shielding or spining (positive G) habitation modules.

Re:Good job ESA

[jez9999]

That would be pretty sucky, as the already-insane population density on Earth would increase massively further, and almost certainly collapse in on itself unless a large number of people could be relocated to another planet.

Re:Good job ESA

[Idarubicin]

Odd as it may seem, "something near it" isn't that big of a problem.

What we need is

...lots and lots of antimatter...
...working engines that use it...
...a station placed at about 0.1 AU...
...a station with a power collecting surface the size of a football field...
...facilities necessary to transform all that power into antimatter...

Oh. Is that all? "Isn't that big of a problem" indeed...

You forgot to do the kinetic energy calculation. I'm neglecting relativistic effects out of laziness. At 0.99c (a bit less than 3E8 m/s), each kilogram of spaceship would have kinetic energy of roughly 4.4E16 joules.

Assume for a moment that we had the 148 kW antimatter yield from your proposed power system. That's 148 kJ/s, or 4.7E12 J of stored energy per year.

If we also neglect the mass of the fuel itself, and assume a 100% efficient engine, we need to operate the antimatter plant for just about 10000 years to produce enough antimatter to accelerate 1 kg of cargo (a shade over two pounds on earth) to 0.99c.

To store enough energy in one year to accelerate 1 kg of mass to 0.99c, you need something closer to five hundred square kilometers of solar panels under the engineering assumptions the parent describes. Note also that those panels are assumed to be at 0.1 AU from the Sun--inside the orbit of Mercury (mean orbital distance about 0.15 AU)--and a decidedly hostile environment for even an unmanned station.

I've also neglected to consider accelerating the mass of the antimatter propellant (only about 250 g of antimatter and an equal amount of matter per kilogram of cargo, actually) as well as the additional mass required to slow down or maneouvre at the other end of the trip. For reference, the Apollo command module weighed more than five thousand kilograms; the Shuttle orbiter weighs close to a hundred thousand. Even Sputnik I weighed 84 kg.

Re:Good job ESA

[chainsaw1]

Except that the vapor pressure of water is higher than the external pressure in space. Therefore, all liquid water will be boiling and any solid ice will be subliming off into space.

Plus, as the volume of water you carry with you to repair the cracks increases, the surface area of the ship carrying it increases as well. Despite not having done a SA to V proportionality, I think SA will increase faster than volume. So at some point you can make a ship too large to be resealed with ice at a given rate. Where that point is depends on the rate of water depletion to fix cracks, etc. you would encounter.

Re:Good job ESA

[strictnein]

From wiki:
Many physicists, including Stephen Hawking (see Hawking's Chronology Protection Conjecture), believe that due to the problems a wormhole would theoretically create, including allowing time travel,

Hawking now believes the opposite. Part of the recent black hole hoopla was that space/time travel in this matter wouldn't work.

Re:Good job ESA

[evilWurst]

It should greatly slow down some aspects of aging... mainly mechanical parts wearing out and DNA falling apart after too many cell divisions. How much depends on how deep this hybernation goes. Even if it's like sleeping normally for weeks at a time, that's a lot less wear and tear on your body. And in space, it'd be combined without so much annoying gravity pulling you down.

However, you're still getting the same (or higher depending on the spacecraft) dose of radiation over time, right? So there's a chance we'd end up with people who are 150 but only lived for 30 of those years, young and healthy except they're dying of cancer.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

You forgot to do the kinetic energy calculation. I'm neglecting relativistic effects out of laziness. At 0.99c (a bit less than 3E8 m/s), each kilogram of spaceship would have kinetic energy of roughly 4.4E16 joules.

Relativity states that a craft notice no change in mass from its own frame of reference. As long as the fuel is contained aboard the spaceship (the rocket formula), its mass will increase along with the rest of the ship's. Only an outside observer will see the ship struggle as it gets closer to light speed. This is because aboard ship, it's impossible to tell if it's actually moving or everything else in the Universe is moving. All the occupants know is that the ship will reach a given destination. Since that is their goal, it does not matter if they are moving toward the planet, or the planet is moving toward them.

As for the .99c, who says we need to reach that speed? The parent asked for something "near light speed". ,9c will do just fine. Let's take a trip of 4 light years as an example. According to this calculator, such a trip would take a relativistic time of 3.4 years. Using one year of energy generated by one of our sun power plants, let's see how many kilograms we can send to Alpha Centauri. Here's the math, so I can be checked:

1 Newton ~= 1 Joule
1 Newton = 1 kg/m/s^2
1 Kilogram at 9.81m^2 = 9.81 Newtons
9.81 Newtons = 9.81 Joules/sec

1 Year = 60*60*24*365 = 31,536,000 seconds
3.4 years * 9.81 Joules = 3.09e8 Joules
4.7e12 Joules / 3.09e8 Joules = 15,210 kilograms of ship

The figures seem to check in my books. So it seems we can send 15.2 metric tons there on one year's worth of fuel. Of course, it's a good idea to wait for another year's worth of fuel so we can get them back.

Feel free to respond. I love sinking my teeth into this stuff. :-)

Re:Good job ESA

[modge]

Or you could just get as close as you can manaager to light speed, which would slow time down (effectively, not litterally) so as that whilst as far as we are conserned it maek take you xHundered years to reach your destinenation but to there bodies (and to the craft) it would seem as if it took a far shorter length of time.

Re:Good job ESA

[modge]

Also it can be beaten in water hence the blue glow of pools of coolant water, its the equiverlent of a sonic boom for light. The thing is the speed of light in water is 2/3's the speed of light elsewhere so particles can easily go faster than light does

Re:Good job ESA

[Saeger]

...unless a large number of people could be relocated to another planet.

Or to a transhuman inner space. We won't be stuck wasting meatspace forever, you know.

--

Re:Good job ESA

[Idarubicin]

I'm afraid you're going to have to check your figures on calculating kinetic energy.

For relativistic speeds, the kinetic energy is given by the formula linked here. This kinetic energy will always be greater than the energy calculated for a given velocity using the classical kinetic energy

KE = 1/2 * m * v^2

Using the classical kinetic energy formula (which will always overestimate the velocity achieved with a given quantity of kinetic energy, one obtains:

v (classical) = (2 * KE / m)^(1/2)

If we're working in SI (mks) units, everything is kosher for velocities in m/s, masses in kg, and energies in joules (1 J = 1 kg.m^2/s^2).

Using the figure of 3.09E8 J of kinetic energy per kilogram of ship you've put forward, you end up with a velocity of just shy of 2.5E4 m/s, or 25 km/s. It's going to take you more than four years just to get out of the Solar System at that speed.

Relativity states that a craft notice no change in mass from its own frame of reference. As long as the fuel is contained aboard the spaceship (the rocket formula), its mass will increase along with the rest of the ship's.

This is true, but not relevant to the discussion. I was looking at the energy content of the fuel. The rate of acceleration is neither here nor there (though in this case the calculation is correct--you get up close to c after about 1 year at 1 g acceleration). The problem is straight-up conservation of energy--if there's not the potential energy in the fuel, you can't get the kinetic energy for the spacecraft.

Also, when calculating the energy required for a given acceleration, you have to multiply the force (in newtons) by the distance (in meters).

For an acceleration of 1 g (9.8 m/s^2) of 1 kg of mass, we're looking at a force of:

Force = Mass * Acceleration
= (1 kg) * (9.8 m/s^2)
= 9.8 kg.m/s^2 = 9.8 newtons (N)

For the total work done (energy required) one has to multiply the force by the distance over which it is applied:

Work = Force * Distance
= 9.8 N * 1/2 lightyear
= 9.8 kg.m/s^2 * 4.7E15 m (Thanks Google!
= 4.6E16 kg.m^2/s^2 = 4.6E16 joules (J)

That's the gotcha that you have to watch for--the parent equated newtons with joules/second. A newton is a joule per meter. (1 J/s is a watt.) Note also that (as expected) the energy cost to achieve a given speed is a constant--if you halve the acceleration (using half the force) you double the distance over which you accelerate.

Re:Good job ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense. We've had like a dozen men spend weekends on the moon, with no time to check stuff out. It's rather like Chris Columbus's (? I would like to chat about National Socialism and the great debt it owes to Alexis de Toqueville with a punctuation Nazi) first return trip from the Indies. He had no idea there was gold in California. Or the Yukon. The Space Station needs to be a gas station, full service. (Um, the AdT reference is page 159 or so of Shirer's Rise and Fall.)
Charlie

Re:Good job ESA

[l4m3z0r]

It actually may be the closest we get to time travel as well (want to see the future? just hybernate for 100 years)

After 100 years of hibernation you'd probably be dead of old age. If alive you would certainly be unable to move your limbs because of deteriation of your muscles. Its like when people enter comas they age and lose muscle tissue. Perhaps you should think of it more as I'm going to sleep for a few months so I won't be bored(and yes while asleep you age). Rather than, look at me some magic is gonna keep me suspended like they did in that cool movie!!! l33tz0r!!!!

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

Redoing the numbers to correct 1 Newton = 1 kg/m^2/s^2:

1 Newton = 1 Joule/m
1 Newton = 1 kg/m/s^2
1 Kilogram at 9.81m^2 = 9.81 Newtons
9.81 Newtons = 9.81 Joules/m/sec^2

1 Light Year = 9.46e15 meters
4 * 9.46e15 light years * 9.81 J/m = 3.71e17 Joules

So for 15.21 metric tons, we'd be looking at an energy requirement of:

15,210 * 3.71e17 J = 5.64e21 Joules

So it seems that I've invented a method for travel inside the solar system, as opposed to engines for interstellar travel. But what if there was a a tremendous increase in efficiency? Would we be able to produce enough antimatter for interstellar travel?

Returning to the output of the sun on our football field:

1 watt = 1 Joule/sec
1 Year = 60*60*24*365 = 31,536,000 seconds
7.5gw = 7.5e09 watts

3.71e17 J / 7.5e09 J/sec = 49,466,666 sec
49,466,666 sec / 31,536,000 sec = 1.56 years

So the energy is there, we just can't access it without serious improvements to our efficiency in creating antimatter. If advances are made to get the overall process up to a few percent of efficiency (the current process I'm proposing would be .002% efficient), interstellar travel could become slightly more realistic.

Thank you for your input! :-)

Re:Good job ESA

[quisph]

I don't think hibernation prevents aging... It might or might not, but I think the point was that it would almost certainly alter the astronaut's perception of the passage of time. Along the lines of Rip Van Winkle.

Re:Good job ESA

[strictnein]

You don't see the bigger picture. The idea that they're working towards is to be able to hibernate for long periods of time, without the ill effects.

Obviously hibernating for 100 years is something off in the future, and I'd be suprised to see it possible in the next 30-40 years, but I'd be pretty suprised if we can't put someone in a sleep like state for a month or two by 2010-2015 and have minimal ill effects. Sleeping or a coma is not the same as hibernating. True hibernating animals (unlike the bear, which doesn't hibernate, but just sleeps deeply) typically exhibit exceptionaly decreased metabolism and many times have their body temps drop to just a few degrees above freezing.

If you had RTFA you would have seen that some very preliminary work they've done has already shown decreased cell activity. There's nothing "magical" about it.

Re:Good job ESA

[sckeener]

I don't think hibernation prevents aging...

It better slow it down. Otherwise we still need to send food supplements

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

The thing is the speed of light in water is 2/3's the speed of light elsewhere so particles can easily go faster than light does

Strictly speaking, what you're saying is not correct. Photons (who's speed we're measuring) always travel at "light speed". When light "travels" through a medium, it's not actually traveling. Rather, the photons are absorbed and then recreated by the particles. This gives "light waves" a speed less than "light speed", but the speed of the photons never changed.

Re:Good job ESA

[Idarubicin]

So the energy is there, we just can't access it without serious improvements to our efficiency in creating antimatter. If advances are made to get the overall process up to a few percent of efficiency (the current process I'm proposing would be .002% efficient), interstellar travel could become slightly more realistic.

That's still a heck of an if...

Incidentally, I crunched the numbers--the relativistic kinetic energy at 0.9c is 1.16E17 J per kilogram of mass. At 0.95c, it's 1.98E17 J; at 0.99c it's 5.4E17 J.

If you're willing to settle for 0.1c, then your energy requirement drops three orders of magnitude, to 4.5E14 J per kilogram of cargo. That might be a bit easier.

Even so...solar cells typically have efficiencies in the 20% range, and they tend not to be happy at high temperature. Assuming they can be hardened for a close solar orbit, and assuming we get their efficiency up by a factor of 3 (that's the best that can be hoped for) we've got a production of energy from our football field of about 5 GW. (5E9 J/s).

Antimatter production is about 0.000001% efficient in current facilities, but they're not designed with antimatter production in mind. Applying favourable estimates and solid engineering, it is speculated that we can get an extra four orders of magnitude in efficiency, up to the neighbourhood of 0.01%.

Unless we develop some new physics, we're stuck there, but I'm willing to concede another two orders of magnitude in efficiency gains--chalk it up to 'cleverness'.

That gets us 5E7 J/s stored; that's about 1.6E15 J per year. If we allow for a 100% efficient engine (sure...), we can lob 2 kg at 0.1c each year, or ten grams at 0.9c.

As you noted, even with 100% efficient energy conversion at each step, you're only pushing a kilogram per year at 0.9c. Yer gonna need more silicon football fields in space. Thousands of them, for manned travel.

Re:Good job ESA

[nlindstrom]

"Tired of uncle Bob hanging around the house too much, breaking things, and acting like a loser? Send him on a hibernation trip to Venus! Jupiter! Pluto! Alpha Centauri! Infinity! And beyond!"

You bastard! You made me blow orange juice out my nose!

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

That's still a heck of an if...

Chalk it up to "what the future may hold". :-)

Even so...solar cells typically have efficiencies in the 20% range, and they tend not to be happy at high temperature.

That's actually why I wouldn't recommend using standard Solar Panels for such a station. I was just using them as an example. Pulling the necessary info from the 'net is worse than untrained dentistry, but my opinion is that converting the heat to energy may be a bit easier, and definitely more efficient. Place a heating surface toward the Sun, a cooling surface away from the Sun, and some Stirling engines in between. The very operation of the engine should cool the heating surface, and produce quite a bit of energy. Would it be more efficient than solar panels? I would like to think so, but I don't know that for a fact.

Antimatter production is about 0.000001% efficient in current facilities, but they're not designed with antimatter production in mind. Applying favourable estimates and solid engineering, it is speculated that we can get an extra four orders of magnitude in efficiency, up to the neighbourhood of 0.01%.

Correct. That's where my 0.01% figure came from.

Unless we develop some new physics, we're stuck there, but I'm willing to concede another two orders of magnitude in efficiency gains--chalk it up to 'cleverness'.

I don't think we need any "new physics". Just a better way to reverse the spin of particles. Right now, particle accelerators are the only method we've managed to create. But if antimatter entered common usage, you'd get more minds working on the problem.

As you noted, even with 100% efficient energy conversion at each step, you're only pushing a kilogram per year at 0.9c. Yer gonna need more silicon football fields in space. Thousands of them, for manned travel.

Indeed. Early craft will probably *have* to be unmanned probes with highly capable radio equipment. Still, even that would be an amazing achievement. It always helps when you can give people a dream that they feel could be accomplished. :-)

As for the number of silicon football fields, it wouldn't surprise me if these were created before anyone considered using them for antimatter. Human beings are becoming more energy hungry, because we always want to go somewhere in a hurry. We're quickly outstripping the energy the Sun is providing to our planet, and even a move to nuclear materials would only provide a few centuries of reprieve. Moving to space would allow us to mine more nuclear materials, but would it be enough to meet our growing energy demands?

The Sun currently wastes more energy than we would know what to do with. As a result, I see it becoming a very popular choice for power providers who can place a station in a close orbit and never have to worry about fuel costs. The energy could then be beamed to a more useful location (e.g. a frozen comet) where it can be used to create fuels or add power to the grid.

Re:Good job ESA

[UrgleHoth]

Easy, we fake a potential global catastrophe and send all the hairdressers, TV producers and salespeople on a ship to interstellar space.

Re:Good job ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank God the ESA isn't wasting any money on manned space travel, while there are so many more important problems to deal with here on Earth, such as occupying bored Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemurs. Once they are all content, we can worry about wasting money on frivolous things like men in space.

Re:Good job ESA

[Lord_Dweomer]

Personally, I'd love this. When I get old, depending on my life circumstances, I would like to be put into stasis for 30-50 years or so, and wake up in the future. It would be risky, yes, but they might have technology to extend my age greatly by then, and it would be completely fascinating to just explore a whole new world like that.

Re:Good job ESA

[strictnein]

you're an idiot. Theyre studying the animals to learn how to put people farther out into space

Fucking twat.

Re:Good job ESA

[man_ls]

thus why it's usually reported as "the speed of light in a vacuum" "the speed of light in water" etc.

Re:Good job ESA

[Prune]

blast off toward the edge of the Universe at 1G of acceleration. Thanks to the dilation of space-time, you should be able to reach the edge of the known Universe in barely a few years time!

That won't work out since the expansion of the universe is accelerating. Things beyond that edge (and I take it that by known universe you mean the visible universe, which includes all up to the distance the earliest light has had time to travel to us since the beginning) are moving away us at a speed greater than the speed of light, as there is no limit to how fast space can expand, the limit is how fast you can move through space. So even if you travel close to light speed for eternity, the number of galaxies you can pass is finite, and the rest is forever beyound your reach.

Re:Good job ESA

[oku]

As the power per area grows with the inverse square of the distance, the wattage at 0.1 AU is 100 times that of 1 AU, not 1000 times. By the way, 100 times the wattage yields more that 3 times the temperature (4th power law). So you get about 900 K instead of 300 K on earth. That precludes solar panels, I guess.

Re:Good job ESA

[hawkfish]

More importantly, your mind needs the time to process the day's memories and integrate them into the larger structure of the brain. Long before you fell apart physically, you would be dead or insane from the mental collapse.

Re:Good job ESA

[sharkdba]

yes, but the other part would be:

...working engines that use it...

you said it yourself. From what I understand they only exist in theory for now. Implementing them will certainly open up whole new box of obstacles.

Re:Good job ESA

[sharkdba]

...Long before you fell apart physically, you would be dead or insane from the mental collapse.

Just theories. Who said that brain activity will slow down as well? The way I see it, body being in a hibernate state will require much less activity from the brain, giving it more capacity to process current memories. It might be a wash. We won't know until experimented upon.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

*Ahem* From my post:

NASA has a wide variety of plans on the drawing boards for antimatter engines. One of them (utilizing antimatter-enhanced fission) is being constructed by NASA as we speak.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

Thanks for checking my calcs. I had two different calculations written in my notes and I couldn't remember which one was correct. Seems I should have gone with the more conservative one! Just to check, the calcs are as follows:

Earth gets 1.3kw/m^2
light fall off rate = 1/r^2
r = 1au

1.3kw/m^2 * (1au * 1au) = 1.3 kw/m^2
1.3kw/m^2 / (0.1 au * 0.1au) = 130kw/m^2

That still doesn't look right. But it checks against your answer.

Therefore, the correct power generation would be:

109.73m * 48.78m * 130kw/m^2 = 695.8mw

By the way, 100 times the wattage yields more that 3 times the temperature (4th power law). So you get about 900 K instead of 300 K on earth.

Actually, I think that's good news. As I suggested above, a Stirling engine in space may actually make the best choice for a power generation plant. The Stirling formula is:

(Temperature of the hot side - Temperature of the cold side)/Temp of hot side * 100

If we figure 900K on the hot side, and near absolute zero on the cold side (we'll say 100K for argument), then we can calculate the following efficiency:

(900K - 100K) / 900K * 100 = 88.8% efficient

Now, does anyone know how to calculate how much of the solar energy we could convert to heat by use of a black surface? And how much wattage per square meter is in constant 900K?

Re:Good job ESA

[oku]

Just as a note: You will have a high temperature on the *dark* side, too, because you have vent off the excess heat. You simply cannot do that when the body's temperature is near zero.

A more realistic scenario would be a sun facing side that uses mirrors to achieve hot spots with a high temperature and a cold side of 900 K. But as I said, it gets tough material-wise when get that close to the sun. One of Mercury's Lagrange points might be suitably far away, though.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

Just as a note: You will have a high temperature on the *dark* side, too, because you have vent off the excess heat. You simply cannot do that when the body's temperature is near zero.

Um... you're going to have to explain that to me, because I thought that's how Stirling engines *work*. With a suitable area to exhaust the heat, the temperature should drop more quickly on the cold side than you can exhaust heat into it.

As I understand it, the warm side should create a cold "shadow" directly behind itself, as all the rays from the Sun are striking the front side of the station. As long as the back side is able to maintain a sufficient area for heat disappation (and should have quite a volume), the rear area should stay cool. (Although the rear plate is going to get quite hot.)

Re:Good job ESA

[oku]

Ok, I'll try to explain. I assume that the hypothetical object in near-sun orbit does not have much more surface on the side that shows away from the sun that on the side that faces the sun. (For a long cylindrical object this would not hold, but I assumed that we were talking about a somehow "football-field" shaped object that is flat rather than long.) Note that folding the back side does not really help, because the radiating surface should see the dark sky without obstruction.

I also assumed that more or less all of the energy from the hot side is actually absorbed. (This is probably the case for a Stirling engine. Otherwise, why move so close to the sun?)

If this is the case, then the back side has to be about 900 K hot to radiate that 130 kW/m^2 we talked about earlier. Ok, so the Stirling engine converts some of the 130 W to a usable form of energy, but it leaves plenty of heat through. Even if it gets 90% efficiency, then we are still at about 500 K.

Granted, this is hot, but manageable. But to achieve the given efficiency, we would have to have about 6000 K at the hot side. Unrealistic. Therefore the hot side must be kept at, say, 1500 K, reducing the efficiency and raising the temperature of the cold side.

I hope that was understandable.

Re:Good job ESA

[AKAImBatman]

I assume that the hypothetical object in near-sun orbit does not have much more surface on the side that shows away from the sun that on the side that faces the sun. (For a long cylindrical object this would not hold, but I assumed that we were talking about a somehow "football-field" shaped object that is flat rather than long.)

Ah, I think I see what you're saying. Basically if the surface area of the cooling section is equivalent to the surface area of the warming section, then there will be some difficulty in exhausting the heat fast enough to keep the cold side significantly colder than the warm side. Correct?

I did some research on this to find how NASA does it with the RTGs. It seems they extend vanes off the surface of the RTG to provide enough cooling (image). Conceivably, something similar could be done with the cooling cylinder of the engine(s). Instead of having a solid wall facing the rear, a cylinder with vanes could extend from the back of the station.

As long as we can provide enough cooling area to keep the cylinder(s) cool, we should have a very efficient engine. Even if we allow the rear area to reach 450K, that still gives our engine an efficiency rating of 50% ( (900-450)/900x100) = 50%); which is about 30% more efficient than the more fragile Solar Panels.

Thankfully, 900K isn't hard to deal with materials wise. Iron has a melting point of about 1800 Kelvin, which is quite good for the amount of thermal conductivity you're getting.

Now if you *really* want to go the mirrored route, we could build out station out of Tungsten (expensive!). With a melting point of 3700 Kelvin and more than twice the thermal conductivity, we can make the station far hotter than we could otherwise.

An alternative solution.

[mikael]

ESA researchers will make initial inquiries into DADLE (D-Ala,D-Leu-enkephalin), an opium-like drug that triggers hibernation in ground squirrels and human cells. Other subjects of interest include dobutamine, a drug that maintains muscle, and the Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur, the only primate known to hibernate."

An alternative solution is to design a virtual environment simulator that will make ground squirrels and Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemurs believe they are jumping across tree branches, when in fact they are piloting an interstellar spaceships.

Re:An alternative solution.

[dr_dank]

An alternative solution is to design a virtual environment simulator that will make ground squirrels and Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemurs believe they are jumping across tree branches, when in fact they are piloting an interstellar spaceships.

The Last Starfighter meets Alvin and the Chipmunks! Scriptwriting may be in your future, my friend.

Re:An alternative solution.

[AndroidCat]

I don't see why not. They already seem to be piloting major corporations.

Re:An alternative solution.

[BondHeadGuy]

I can't believe I'm about to do this but...

I, for one, welcome our new Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur interstellar spaceship pilot masters.

Ugh, I feel so dirty.

Re:An alternative solution.

[Vasan]

Why aren't they developing Bistromathics further instead?

Re:An alternative solution.

[xSauronx]

He's obviously George Lucas, so it's obviously not.

Re:An alternative solution.

[Anonymous Coward]

Humans: "Or we could tap into their body heat to power the machines while they remain in their alternate reality."

Machines: "Hmm. Humans generate a lot more body heat (and hot air) than lemurs. Maybe if we got the humans to hibernate..."

Does cancer hibernate too?

[Euphonious Coward]

I wonder if tumors stop growing during hibernation. If they do, then everybody with (expected-) fatal cancer can just hibernate until there's a cure.

Likewise aging...

Re:Does cancer hibernate too?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, then they'll find themselves aboard the Enterprise with a guy demanding to see the Wall Street Journal while Picard is busy dealing with the Romulans.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too?

[jdmetz]

That would be nice, but unfortunately hibernating is not the same as suspended animation. Hibernating animals still lose muscle mass and use energy. The metabolic rate decreases but does not stop in hibernation.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too?

[jabberjaw]

Hmm, now IANAB nor do I have any real training in the life sciences, however I am under the impression that cancer is essentially unregulated cell growth. Thus I doubt that hibernation would stop it altogether, as for slowing it, I haven't the faintest idea.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too?

[Sgt York]

You are correct: Cancer is unregulated cell growth. But from the article, this compound seems to check cell division in culture.

Aside from pie-in-the-sky ideas about putting someone on pause while a cure is developed, this mught be a great stopgap measure or combinatorial method if delivered locally.

Deliver the drug locally, so that it has an effective dose just in the tumor. Or use the developing tumor targeting strategies that are out there. This could halt or slow tumor growth while other treatments work on killing it off.

The drawback, of course, is that most anticancer drugs target tumors based on their rapid growth.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too?

[Anonymous Coward]

You said it, the metabolic rate decreases implicitely slowing the aging process. It may not keep you alive forever, but for some people only hope is left.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too?

[juhaz]

The drawback, of course, is that most anticancer drugs target tumors based on their rapid growth.

If hibernation doesn't affect tumors that might be an upside, though. All the bad side effects of anticancer drugs are because they also end up targeting every other cell type that divides fast.

If you could put the patient into hibernation and it would slow down growth of normal cells, but leave tumor growing rapidly you could pump him full of anti-division cytotoxins and not have serious side effects.

Great idea!

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

As long as it's cheap enough I can afford it on my unemployment check, I believe it would be a good idea to simply hibernate for 20-25 years, and bypass the entire recession!

Where can I buy some of this stuff?

Re:Great idea!

[AaronD12]

Yes, but think about how out-of-date your IT skills will be by then.

"Nick, could you spec out a PC for me?"
"Sure! You want something fast, like a 3.6GHz Pentium IV?"
"You must be joking. My holographic communication watch has more power than that!"

Re:Great idea!

[BennyB2k4]

I'd like to hibernate until the hardware to run Doom3 at full detial is plentiful and cheap. Say 3-4 years?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Don't answer the phone...

[danormsby]

A phone call from Derren Brown may be a good start for this research.

Oh yeah, that's comforting...

[pergamon]

"Don't worry sir, the device you're about to trust your life to is the result of years of research with the Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur."

Re:Oh yeah, that's comforting...

[irokitt]

"Here we are strapped to millions of tons of explosives built by the lowest bidder."

Rock Hound, Armageddon.

I probably got the quote wrong, but the point is that you already have to be a little loony to get shot into space. X-Prize not withstanding.

Re:Oh yeah, that's comforting...

[clambake]

That's the Malagasy fat-tailed dwarf lemur you insensitive clod!

Uh...

[jav1231]

Ah yes...those family jaunts to the outer rim would be great! Wife: "Great! I knew if I fell asleep we'd wind up in the middle of nowhere!"

I hope there going for basic science...

[Retric]

Interesting but I think they're going to need to work out how to prevent bone loss if you're going to hibernate for a significant portion of the time in space. Anyway I hope there going for a basic science approach to the subject because if dobutamine maintains muscle mass during hibernation then it might also help with coma/bed-ridden patients.

Re:I hope there going for basic science...

[ThaenRT]

They already use it for this. thaen

Re:I hope there going for basic science...

[lombre]

Will dobutamine help me retain muscle mass while reading slashdot (a form of mental/social hibernation)?

Re:I hope there going for basic science...

[epyx]

I have serious issues with the administration of dobutamine. It does nothing to maintin peripheral musculature, it only affects the heart. We use it in the field of EMS to elevate a person's blood pressure, or to make the heart beat more strongly when it is failing in congestive heart failure. As such, all it would do is preserve heart muscle, while the rest of your body's musculature gets broken down.

Not to mention all the effects of constricting the blood vessles, and raising the blood pressure.

Re:I hope there going for basic science...

[juhaz]

Maybe I'm not following here, but muscle and bone don't just evaporate, right? The loss is trough body noticing lack of need and adjusting, however in hibernation metabolism is already much slower which would automatically lead to slower muscle and bone loss as well.

Bone loss is gravity affected and so not something you can easily study on Earth, but do animals that hibernate lose a significant amount of muscle mass due to inactivity?

Don't worry, as usual..

[Mike Hock]

I'll be taking care of your gf tonight.

You are welcome!!

Hibernation ?

[qrash]

I believe the article refers to hibernation in the way some animals go into to get through winter, that is you will still age in this kind of hibernation, whereas in "Alien" the hibernation was sort of putting the person in the freezer.

Re:Hibernation ?

[pe1rxq]

If you could also slow down the decaying off cells (which a lowered metabolism would do to some extent) you are a long way... A lot of old age problems are basicly a result of your DNA being to old/damaged to be properly copied anymore.

Jeroen

Re:Hibernation ?

[0123456]

"A lot of old age problems are basicly a result of your DNA being to old/damaged to be properly copied anymore."

Actually, most of what I've read of aging research in the last few years says that's not true, except to the extent that DNA is stripped off the end of the chain every time it's duplicated (as part of an anti-cancer mechanism to kill cells that begin to duplicate endlessly). 'Old age' seems to be more of a triggered event than an accumulation of genetic damage.

Which makes sense when you consider that most people's mothers are 40 or less when they have kids, so there's little evolutionary pressure to eliminate genes which kill you when you're past 40 (particularly if those same genes have survival benefits when younger).

Re:Hibernation ?

[Sgt York]

'Old age' seems to be more of a triggered event than an accumulation of genetic damage.

A lot of researchers are starting to think that the actual molecular trigger is the DNA alterations, though. It is hypothesized that as telomeres reduce in length, the presentations of "old age" start to show. The idea is that if we can reduce the rate of degredation, we can reduce the rate of onset of old age.

Re:Hibernation ?

[Keighvin]

Freezing causes significant problems for large critters though. Some amphibeans due this be excreeting large amounts of a glucose-based protein from their liver just prior to freezing solid, which serves to prevent cellular damage.

Even if humans try the same trick, the issue is thawing evenly. Differences in the freeze/thaw rates of different tissues (as well as pressures associated with different levels of expansion) make this a stuttered process that would have some areas into nectrotic asphyxiation by the time others were even barely hypothermic.

Atrophy

[Short Circuit]

Having someone sleep indefinately is only a matter of controlled sedatives. I imagine their biggest problem is going to be organ atrophy.

If they solve that, then they'll have an extremely valuable spinoff technology that will help everyone from the temporarily wheelchair-bound to the hospitalized.

Re:Atrophy

[way2trivial]

neh, the difference between drug induced sleep and hibernation, is consumption of resources. hibernation means a lowered metabolism, less food consumption, less air to breath... less excretion to handle...

Re:Atrophy

[bigattichouse]

What about (hypothetical) Myostatin inhibition? (thinking about the uber-baby) I cannot think of a reason for muscles to atrophy if the mechanism of atrophy is removed. There must be a trigger that causes atrophy, thinking about that kid with the bulging he-muscles... and thus a potential way to block that trigger/enzyme. You'd probably need to have the person on IV *anyway*, might as well make a "hibernation cocktail" or an emplantable "time release" thing, which would also provide necessary chemicals for getting you to wake up... maybe even some epinepherine (sp?) in the event of a heart attack or immediate need to wake.

How about an alternative to frozen corpses?

[koa]

Aside from the space travel initiative, this technology could come in handy with people who are sick/dying and would like their dead body frozen. It would be more attractive I think to put someone in suspended animation if they are terminally ill in hopes of a future cure. Because if you are frozen solid by liquid nitrogen after you die; those future scientists will have to figure out how to cure DEATH before they even think about getting to what ails you!

Re:How about an alternative to frozen corpses?

[dr_dank]

those future scientists will have to figure out how to cure DEATH before they even think about getting to what ails you!

Before that, they have to find a cure for freezer burn.

Re:How about an alternative to frozen corpses?

[geminidomino]

New, from Zip-Loc:

Tired of that "not so fresh" frostbite feeling you get when travelling to Mars on business? Sick of paying thousands of dollars to reattach digits?

Cheer up! The new "Zip-Loc Human Storage system prevents 99.999% of cellular damage from the harsh cold of cryogenic stasis! The Yellow and Blue makes Green seal ensures you'll survive!"

Now available in family size!

OK, but will the ESA study how to build

[panurge]

Heuristic algorithmically programmed computers that don't decide to take over the mission? Science fiction precedent shows that being a hibernating crew member on a long voyage means you don't make it to the end of the movie. I guess we will need some of that old Russian technology with drum timers.

Also, if the eventual mechanism is based on bear hibernation, how are the astronauts going to wake up and poo in the woods periodically?

Re:OK, but will the ESA study how to build

[Blakey Rat]

Hey, Ripley survived in Alien. That's, what, one in seven? One and a half if you count the cat. And in the second movie, Aliens, that was like 2 (humans) in like 10? That's not so bad of odds... or, wait, maybe it is...

Re:OK, but will the ESA study how to build

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not so bad of odds

But, that is 'so bad of' sentence.

Re:OK, but will the ESA study how to build

[nlindstrom]

If a bear shits in the woods and no one is there to smell it, does the shit stink?

Re:OK, but will the ESA study how to build

[Anonymous Coward]

You are "so bad" at life!! DIE

Open source coders

[elhaf]

Instead of hibernating, let them program open source code for the entire trip. All they will need is a sufficient supply of pizza and beer, and there's no need to worry about troublesome human interactions.

No, I am not getting any tonight.

[Anonymous Coward]

Score:5 Funny

I want it!

[Sediyama]

I want to hibernate and wake up in 5 years. So I can afford a Quake 3 compatible video card!

Re:I want it!

[ceeam]

Also a time machine. To go back in time to fix the "oh, dang" typo.

Re:I want it!

[Anonymous Coward]

>It's Doom III dumbass.

Nah, he just woke up...

Re:I want it!

[StalinsNotDead]

What about Duke Nukem Forever? You probably would have to hibernate just for the opportunity to play it.

Re:I want it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, you mean $50? Dude, get a job.

You likely meant Doom 3 -- in which case it's $120...

Screw dobutamine, I'd prefer...

[Anonymous Coward]

...doobiebutamine, a drug that maintains munchies.

Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur

[Esion Modnar]

Having a name like that is a survival mechanism. You see, when anybody's hunting them, by the time they say, "Hey, there's a Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur!" it's gotten away clean.

Re:Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur

[JazzHarper]

Isn't that the creature on the cover of Learning vi?
-

Re:Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur

[SharkJumper]

Either that, or it toughens them up ala Boy Named Sue.

SharkJumper

Re:Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur

[DLWormwood]

...by the time they say, "Hey, there's a Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur!" it's gotten away clean.

No kidding. You know somebody messed things up when naming the animal when the scientific name, of all things, is shorter.

It's Cheirogaleus Medius, BTW.

Re:Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur

[shadow303]

If memory serves me correct, that was a ring-tailed lemur.

Talk about an ad calling all drug addicts...

[cmdrwhitewolf]

Zonker comes in and says, "So you want to study my hibernation while using a Opium like drug? That's ok with me, just point me to the cot, and give me my pot."

Obscure Reference

[jdavidb]

The lid above rises and a light comes on. You are in a sponge-lined coffin. The only exit is out.

The panel has 10 buttons: black, brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, grey and white.

Re:Obscure Reference

[HarveyBirdman]

Ooo! Ooo! Ooo!

"Suspended" by Infocom, right?

Re:Obscure Reference

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy, if it is, it must be from the Ending.

Which, sadly, I never even got CLOSE to... I'd place my bet on something like Planetfall.

Re:Obscure Reference

[keytoe]

Planetfall?!

Re:Obscure Reference

[jdavidb]

Nice try. I actually never heard of Suspended till recently (I'm experiencing a surge of reinterest in interactive fiction). This was from Snowball, a text adventure with minimal graphics about a suspended-animation colony ship. The game, its premise and gameworld, and its two sequels have fascinated me for years. I highly recommend you hunt them down and play them.

Snowball (part 1 of the Silicon Dreams trilogy) was produced by Level 9, a British interactive fiction publisher. I've seen them sometimes called "the other Infocom." They independently created their own virtual machine running A-code (compare to Infocom's z-code and Z-machine) as well as private authoring and compression software to produce some of the larger games of the day and allow them to run on a multitude of different platforms.

If you're an interactive fiction fan, it'd be to your liking to hunt down info on the company and games, if only for nostalgia.

Re:Obscure Reference

[jdavidb]

'Fraid not. Snowball, part 1 of the Silicon Dreams trilogy from Level 9. Go see my response to another guy for more info. If you liked those kinds of games, you'd probably like hunting these down.

Re:Obscure Reference

[keytoe]

'Fraid not. Snowball, part 1 of the Silicon Dreams trilogy from Level 9

Dang! I didn't remember it as a line from Plantefall exactly (it WAS over 15 years ago!) - just was guessing based on style. Thanks for the info - I'll check it out. I could use a touch of nostalgia (maybe even connect up to the old Mud I used to play...)

Re:Obscure Reference

[jdavidb]

I went on a nostalgia kick around July 4th and introduced my wife to this trilogy of games. She had never played a text adventure, although apparently she had tried to write similar games when she was young. Now suddenly she's discovered Inform (language, compiler, and library for creating Infocom Z-machine compatible games) and is turning into a programmer. You never know what could happen. :)

Anti ProPlus?

[tracker1972]

So, at the end of this are we goingto end up with the ultimate anti ProPlus? Wake up and can't shake your hangover thanks to weeks of late nights on ProPlus then a party to celebrate whatever is over?

Pop an AmMinus and sleep it off for a week/month/year (make sure you take the correct dosage).

Think that could come in handy, a two day pill would be nice, probably no hardware required for just a couple of days.

Tracker1972.

Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[mykepredko]

I wondered the same thing - and going ahead with this, would it be easier to operate on somebody in hibernation?

Would hibernation be part of a safer anesthetic protocol for surgury? Put the patient into hibernation with local pain killers rather than forcing them into unconsciousness?

This could be a very useful spin-off of this technology and maybe be more important to humanity than facilitating very long duration space-flight.

myke

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[Anonymous Coward]

Put the patient into hibernation with local pain killers rather than forcing them into unconsciousness?

And what, precisely, do you see the as philosophical difference between being drugged into hibernation and being drugged into unconsciousness?

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[mykepredko]

And what, precisely, do you see the as philosophical difference between being drugged into hibernation and being drugged into unconsciousness?

None - the current drugs used to "put somebody under" for surgury and lowering blood pressure/heart rate/respiration are dangerous and require constant monitoring of the patient. If the same function could be provide by a "hibernation drug", I presume that this would be easier on the patient and safer through the course of the surgury.

myke

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[(54)T-Dub]

Another problem with general anesthesias is that the entire body shuts down, including the immune system. So your body doesn't have a chance to start healing itself until you wake up. If the body could be staving off infection and mending cuts during the surgery the patient would have a much shorter recovery time with a higher success rate. I'm not sure if hibernation would help with this problem, but it would be interesting to see.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[Alsee]

the body could be [] mending cuts during the surgery

NURSE! Hand me that damn scalpel, AGAIN!
Damn damn damn damn! How the hell am I supposed to operate when I need to remake the god-damn incision every five freaking minutes!

-

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunately you're not operating on Wolverine.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[borroff]

IANAD, but I think I had heard there are some surgical procedures where they intentionally reduce body core temperature and metabolism, so they have longer to, say, replace a heart without inflicting neurological damage from oxygen deficit (this is after anesthesia). Any surgical personnel out there with the scoop?

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[borroff]

On the other hand, I just Googled an article showing that hypothermia during surgery can increase susceptability to post-op infections. TANSTAAFL.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[jnicholson]

The point with hibernation is that the body shuts down, probably even more so than with a general anaesthetic, so I don't see a gain to be made here. But it's an interesting idea nonetheless.

Actually, I suspect the problem with surgery is that the body fighting back always involves pain as part of the process, so it may not be solvable.

Re:Does cancer hibernate too? - Easier Surgury?

[(54)T-Dub]

Actually they have been using acupunture as a replacement for anesthesia with a high amount of success. They have seen remarkable recovery and success rates.

Longhorn

[angrist]

Sounds like the perfect way to eliminate (subjectively) that pesky wait for Longhorn.....

Re:Longhorn

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think anyone around here is waiting for longhorn

OPS Need to preview not post...

[Retric]

Interesting but I think they're going to need to work out how to prevent bone loss if you're going to hibernate for a significant portion of the time in space. Anyway I hope there going for a basic science approach to the subject because if dobutamine maintains muscle mass during hibernation and it help's with coma/bed-ridden patients then it might also be useful as a safe way to boost muscle mass in the elderly or even just the lazy.

A Humble Suggestions for ESA

[Dr. Shim]

Let me get this right, the ESA is creating an opium like drug to put people into hibernation on long space voyages.

And this drug work's successfully on ground squirrels.

Why not just send the squirrels into space, and skip humanity altogether?

Re:A Humble Suggestions for ESA

[Dr. Shim]

Or the lemure?

Re:A Humble Suggestions for ESA

[Anonymous Coward]

You're thinking Lemur, the monkey.

Unless you meant the low hit die fiend of lawful alignment.

DADLE might beat heroin addiction withdrawal?

[Anonymous Coward]

DADLE (D-Ala,D-Leu-enkephalin), an opium-like drug that triggers hibernation in ground squirrels and human cells.

The only danger is that addicts sleeping through the pain (or -- horrors! -- feeling ANY pleasure during treatment) would probably upset the religious freaks who are in charge of the tax-and-spend drugwar, and will be, no matter which side wins.
me

I offer myself...

[abkaiser]

...To test the "opium-like" drug. I'm that dedicated to scientific advance.

Of course, the last time I heard something like that, it was from a bartender who suggested a drink and told me "it was as close to legal opium as you could get".

So, one interesting night later, I have this advice: Stay away from Chartreuse.

Re:I offer myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

Even closer to Opium then that crappy drink you pointed out is

suprise, suprise HEROIN... Which can easly be purchased on most street corners in Spanish Harlem (or your local Latino getto) for a small price.

Alcohol is bad for you

Re:I offer myself...

[essreenim]

Yeah, count me in...lets get high...

Pigs in Space

[grunt107]

If ground-squirrel hibernation is similar to bear hibernation, only fat people could be sent. They would then wake up many dozens of pounds lighter.

'Try the new NASA diet. Just sleep the pounds (and your life) away'.

Re:Pigs in Space

[StalinsNotDead]

There's an idea for weight loss.

Hiberslim, just sleep away the pounds.

I studied this a few years back

[Anonymous Coward]

I took a lecture course on human hibernation but it kept putting me to sleep.

Mmmm....

[night_flyer]

ground squirrels

Re:Mmmm....

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better when they have been tenderised by a hummer!

Along the way

[scottennis]

Gosh. You mean there's nothing to do along the way? No science to be done? Since when did the destination become the entire journey. I think solving the problem of getting more food into the ship would be easier to solve than getting an astronaut to sleep for 6 months or more.

Besides, if I'm an astronaut and you're sending me on one of the most incredible journeys of my life (perhaps taking up most of my life). And you want me to sleep though it? F**k that!

Re:Along the way

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... there's that truck stop outside mars...

Re:Along the way

[nlindstrom]

Well... there's that truck stop outside mars...

It would seem that we two are the only Cowboy Bebop fans on Slashdot. It's a lonely life, partner.

People will get lazy.

[houghi]

I wonder if tumors stop growing during hibernation. If they do, then everybody with (expected-) fatal cancer can just hibernate until there's a cure.

Likewise aging...

There would be no incetive to do any research in cancer, as we will know somebody else will solve it. In the extreme we all go into hibernation and wait till sombody wakes us. As we are all already in hybernation, there will be nobody to wake us.

I can see things being helpfull on an individual basis. On a society basis it can prove desaster. Imagine thousands or even millions getting up because the cure has been found. Imagine that today we find a cure agains AIDS and all people who have died of ageing in the history suddenly all come back at once.

The number of people that have ever been born is 106,456,367,669. Imagine only 1% dying of old age that came back. That would be about 1.000.000.000 people. If there is only place for 1% of that, who will decide who comes back and who not.

Re:People will get lazy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, in the extreme, the people who don't get cancer would populate the Earth with their descendents, eliminating cancer. The people hybernating would just be out of luck!

Re:People will get lazy.

[dexter riley]

The number of people that have ever been born is 106,456,367,669. Imagine only 1% dying of old age that came back. That would be about 1.000.000.000 people. If there is only place for 1% of that, who will decide who comes back and who not.

I don't think science can bring back the ones that have turned into skeletons. Maybe you could try a seance?

Re:People will get lazy.

[StalinsNotDead]

all people who have died of ageing in the history suddenly all come back at once.

For one thing, unemployment would sky-rocket.

There'd be a rash of hate crimes perpetrated againsts the deaders(or pasters or whatever their slur would be).

Then a rash of suicides when the premier of Big Brother LXXVII aired.

Just..

[the_mad_poster]

...send them to my cubicle. The second I enter it, all mental and physical functions shut down for hours.

Your Skills would suffer though...

[FirstNoel]

25 years without and skillset update? With the way tech updates now, you definitely would be out of place.

Sean D.

Re:Your Skills would suffer though...

[WormholeFiend]

there might still be some jobs working with legacy systems... ;)

Re:Your Skills would suffer though...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not so sure about that:
1) what were Windows sys ads/programmers doing 15 years ago?
solving break ins abd BSOD.
getting paid lots of money to keep re-coding the same thing.

2) what were *nix hackers doing?
C and a war on on vi vs emacs; a war of ksh vs. csh.

Are any of these different today?

Re:Your Skills would suffer though...

[Alsee]

what were Windows sys ads/programmers doing 15 years ago?

You gave the time ration backwards. The rate of change is accelerating. If someone were to hibernate for 25 years, you'd have to compare it to "What were people doing 45 years ago?".

Well, 45 years ago "debugging" pretty much involved a pair of tweezers and moth-bucket.

-

Re:Your Skills would suffer though...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ok. He's in a union.

Re:Your Skills would suffer though...

[tim_mathews]

If he hibernated for the next 33 years, he'd be just in time to cash in on the 2038 problem.

Re:Your Skills would suffer though...

[Lord_Dweomer]

Hopefully though the interest gained in your bank account might help, like Fry in Futurama. Of course that's a bit extreme though.....

I started feeling sleepy...

[plexxer]

...just reading the article.

Re:Obscure Reference -Answer: SNOWBALL?

[Nikkodemus]

I thought maybe:

SNOWBALL

Released by Level 9.

They used to do seriously large text based adventures for home computers like the Spectrum and the.. Oric, among others.

Poor, poor lemurs

[nagora]

the Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur, the only primate known to hibernate.

A trait it is about to regret <sound of skull-saw starting up>

TWW

European taxpayers, have they put you asleep ?!

[Anonymous Coward]

So they are spending tax dol^H^H^H"Euros" (bizarre name for a currency where ECU would do, huh?) on developing a method not known to prolong life anyway, and needed (if at all) for interstellar space travel only - unless making interplanetary flights cheaper (by risking the loss of astronauts' lives in hibernation) really counts?

Re:European taxpayers, have they put you asleep ?!

[mailtomomo]

(bizarre name for a currency where ECU would do, huh?)
there was a problem : eine Kuh

Re:European taxpayers, have they put you asleep ?!

[Anonymous Coward]

there was a problem : eine Kuh

There still are problems, at least for some agglutinative languages that use "euro" as an affix. Speaking such a language myself, I hate the name "Euro" as much as I hate the greatly similiar appearances of the different-valued coins.

Ah, here we come to human nature

[Anonymous Coward]

You try spending 6 months with a bunch of other astronauts in a vehicle which is essentially a sardine can floating through space. 6 MONTHS. Of the same thing. No planet. No fresh breeze across your face. The same thing, day in and day out, the same people. Getting further from the planet where you were born, where you really wish you were right now... and you'll have to face another 6 months to get back.

Yes, suicide and homicide is a major issue when it comes to long distance space flights. I think that's really the primary motivator behind this research.

Re:Ah, here we come to human nature

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

Yes, suicide and homicide is a major issue when it comes to long distance space flights. I think that's really the primary motivator behind this research.

I don't know of a single documented case of either suicide or homicide in space...

Re:Ah, here we come to human nature

[drinkypoo]

You don't know of a single case of long-"distance" (the word should be "duration") spaceflight either. Assuming you could provision them, send seven people in a spacecraft to mars or something, and see how they fare. Orbiting in a space station (however small) doesn't count because you're still close to earth and not cut off from it - it's possible to send something up and go get you, and there's only a ~0.75 second lag on communications - less than your average transoceanic phone call.

Re:Ah, here we come to human nature

[StalinsNotDead]

You just put TV cameras in there and you've got your next Road Rules or Big Brother. And you definitely don't want to get voted off the space ship.

Taking the Meds

[verloren]

Other subjects of interest include dobutamine, a drug that maintains muscle, and the Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur, the only primate known to hibernate."

OK, so I can see how I could take DADLE and dobutamine, but how the hell am I going to inject a dose of Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur?

Perhaps I could ask Richard Gere.

Re:Taking the Meds

[drinkypoo]

how the hell am I going to inject a dose of Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur?

This being slashdot, there can be only one answer: Nanotech! That's right, through the upcoming advent of the universal molecular assembler we will create injectable nano-lemurs.

As silly as the idea is, I prefer that to using a giant needle.

sweet!

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

someone wake me up after the election. I'm already tired of all 2 of the candidates.

(ps - I once got a fortune cookie message which read: "bears are not the only creatures to benefit from hibernation". it is now my destiny to hibernate in space. NASA? hire me, please...)

Re:sweet!

[Hakubi_Washu]

> NASA? hire me, please...
Shouldn't that read ESA?

Re:sweet!

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

> > NASA? hire me, please...
> Shouldn't that read ESA?

No, I want to work for NASA. I'm sure they will be doing similar research (if they aren't already).

Re:sweet!

[Hakubi_Washu]

Maybe I should have posted a smiley at the end of that comment... On the other hand, ESA is right around the corner (I live in Germany), so to speak, and their Aurora programm gives 2033 as defintive year for humans to mars... I guess, I'm a bit subjective :-)

Oooh, and we can call it...

[devphil]

...wait for it...

Lemur's Game

Counteract ability to reproduce?

[PhysicsGenius]

That doesn't sound very darwinian. "Keeping the couple intact longer" is group selectionism. Keep trying.

Re:Counteract ability to reproduce?

[Jeremy Erwin]

If the male sticks around, there's a higher chance that he'll support his mate through her pregnancy...

Better living through sociobiology.

Hibernation doesn't solve the real problem..

[Anonymous Coward]

which is aging. A bear when it hibernates still ages and a human that is hibernating will still have the same lifespan. This might be a baby step towards the sci-fi dream of "suspension", but is not going to solve any dilemma's itself.

-

When I oversleep, I get cranky

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be a real asshole after sleeping 5 years straight.

Re:When I oversleep, I get cranky

[mailtomomo]

Then you will be suitable to manage the whole mission .. :)

How is this different? We already know the ...

[nusratt]

.. effects of hibernation.
It's the same as spending all your time on slashdot.
And the biggest effect is that it gets you out of the Finnish army.

Seasonal Affective Disorder

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Some humans gain weight and lower activity when the days get shorter. Is it possible that we have a vestigial hibernation response already?

Re:Seasonal Affective Disorder

[marinebane]

Some humans gain weight and lower activity when the days get shorter.
Isnt that just the effects of winter? You get colder, you sleep more and you eat more.

Re:Seasonal Affective Disorder

[kalidasa]

That's just a vestigial seasonal famine response. Summer is the best time to migrate and food is easy to find, so we get limber and thin and our muscles build up and we eat a lot of small meals. Winter is a bad time to migrate or to find food, so we build up weight and sit around all the time.

Re:Seasonal Affective Disorder

[b-baggins]

Vestigial seasonal famine response? Where'd you get that load of crap?

Folks get fat in the winter because they sit around and watch TV a lot because it's too unpleasant to go outside in the cold.

For crying out loud. To use an analogy: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Re:Seasonal Affective Disorder

[Anonymous Coward]

No. A vestigal hibernation response would mean we evolved, and according to the mass evidence which has been shown we clearly did not. Creation is the only possible way.

Re:Seasonal Affective Disorder

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me ask you something. I'm assuming that you are one of those people who believes the bible is historically accurate. Based soley on the number of land animal species that taxonimists have identified (and we're talking tens of millions to date), and factoring in all of the extinct fossil species that you believe could not have evolved (hundreds of millions at a guess), what would the dimensions of Noah's Arc have to be? "Two of every animal" would require a phenominally huge superfreighter, and thats _not_ including food and fresh water for forty days (remember that most water is not drinkable due to salt content). Moreover, how did land animals subsequently migrate from the Arc's hypothetical landing site to their present habitats? How exactly did the South American primates get from Eurasia to South America. And let's not forget Austrailia, which is surrounded by the Pacific Ocean, yet has plentiful land animals that cannot posssibly swim (and you say could not evolve).

Something to consider

RsG

I suppose that's true...

[cnelzie]

...based on our current understanding of science.

Who knows? In the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years someone could 'break' that secret and speeding along faster then light will be like obtaining supersonic speeds today.

Just because it can't be done today, doesn't mean it won't be done tomorrow, next week, a month from now or anytime in the 'distant' future.

Re:I suppose that's true...

[Jim Starx]

I think the fact that we're knowhere near even thinking about trying today means it wont be possible tomorrow. There is a natural evolution to science, it appears to go by leaps and bounds but you can only leap so far ahead at once. But hey, maybe one day in the future we'll find that Relativity is a limiting case of a theorum that does allow faster then light travel.

Of course, my interpretation of relativity might be a bit off. But I'm pretty sure that, by the current method of measuring velocity, it's not that we can't get up to speeds faster then light, it's that those speeds don't exist and are pointless to discuss.

Re:I suppose that's true...

[cnelzie]

When I said 'tomorrow' the statement was not meaning directly tomorrow and not directly the faster then the speed of light thing.

My statements were more general in nature then specific. It was only an optimistic statement. Now, the next statement is more specific:

Stephen Hawkings recently discovered/announced that matter may actuall 'escape' or be 'expelled' from Black Holes, which significantly alters our understanding of the universe.

Re:I suppose that's true...

[memco]

Am I the only one reminded of HHGG where Adams mentions that any civilization who deos the hybernation thing eventually figures out much better methods of travel, and ends up arriving before the hybernators get there. It seems it would be a waste to use this tech for anything significant (that is assuming that this is plausable, but I wouldn't rely on Adams for any practical space policy).

Re:I suppose that's true...

[cnelzie]

I wonder where we would be if we always 'waited' for the next great technological advance before we did something. We would probably still be in our caves huddling around a few burning cinders wondering at the marvel that is 'fire'.

Hot Black Desiato ...

[Dark$ide]

I need to take a year off dead for tax reasons.
Perhaps I could volunteer for a clinical trial of this stuff.

Re:How is this different? We already know the ...

[nusratt]

FLAMAEBAIT?!
you insensitive clod, my reference to the Finnish army was an allusion to today's story about net-addiction in Finnish draftees.

Wow, they should talk to me

[carcosa30]

Lately I have no energy, I've been sleeping 17 hours a day and even more sometimes. How much do they get funded for these sorts of studies?!?

Re:Wow, they should talk to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi.

You are either severely depressed, or have mononucleosis. Go see a doctor.

Bye.

Reasons the Article doesn't go into....

[Artifakt]

1. Radiation shielding on long term voyages seems to be a real bear of a problem for manned spaceflight to the planets. It might be feasable to put a bunch of shielding around a small compartment with a hybernaut where it wouldn't be feasable to shield all the working and sleeping areas for an awake astronaut.

2. By extension, a 2001-like approach becomes workable - Put part of the crew into hybernation, rotate them in and out as needed. In 2001, this was supposed to be because the planetside geologists and such had little to do until Discovery was close to Jupiter, and then the security/paranoia factor kicked in. In the real case, a ship might rotate crew to even out radiation exposure, or put a crewman who was loosing bone mass faster than others into hybernation to protect his health.

Re:Reasons the Article doesn't go into....

[juhaz]

1. Radiation shielding on long term voyages seems to be a real bear of a problem for manned spaceflight to the planets. It might be feasable to put a bunch of shielding around a small compartment with a hybernaut where it wouldn't be feasable to shield all the working and sleeping areas for an awake astronaut.

While shielding smallish hibernation area would indeed be easier than doing it for the full ship, there might be a negative effect too.

It seems logical that the hibernation itself would actually make you more suspectible to the radiation damage since your cells are working slower, the time it takes before they can fix themselves or autodestruct if that's no longer possible would be much longer while in hibernation, leading to more tissue damage and bigger probability of cancer...

No idea how shielding vs. increased vulnerability would even out though.

Solution

[superdan2k]

You know, the ESA doesn't have to spend a dime. All they have to do is drop someone into my job -- it keeps me slowed down, makes me want to sleep, and destroys my motivation.

Because!

[Rhinobird]

Because, I don't want those fscking squirrels hogging all the glory, damnit!

Lottery

[pjt33]

Surely winning a million or two in the lottery is a better solution?

Too bad for Britain (and Americans?)

[ChozCunningham]

"an opium-like drug that triggers hibernation in ground squirrels and human cells?

By the time this is working, all the children (potential astronauts) will be immunized against opiates, and unable to hibernate.

Re:Too bad for Britain (and Americans?)

[fredmosby]

I thought the drug immunization thing was designed to just work against the addiction, not the effects of the drug.

Re:Too bad for Britain (and Americans?)

[dabraun]

If that's the case then it might actually be a good idea - I'd feel ripped off if I couldn't feel the effects of a drug I chose to take - but who the hell actually *wants* the feeling of addiction?

Re:Too bad for Britain (and Americans?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of which, could this possibly have potential to help drug addicts?
Spend a week or two in hibernation and wake up with a clean system and the physical addiction gone?
Basically sleeping through rehab.
I guess if it's an "opium-like" drug it might not work that well on heroin addicts but it might work for other addictions.

Opium? Greeeat...

[KanSer]

Hmm... Opium-like substance that puts rats out for long periods of time. Yes, let's definitely try the hibernation thing, but do we want our astronauts hopped up on 'ludes? I guess we could send Cheech Marin and Tommy Chong instead.

This could be good ...

[quarkscat]

I could hibernate through the second G.W. Bush
administration, and wake up when there are jobs
again. (Presuming Dubya doesn't get us all
blown up first.)

Re:This could be good ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I could hibernate through the second G.W. Bush
administration, and wake up when there are jobs

Tell you what you go in and we will leave you there till we figure out how to fix brain damage.

Everyone will be happier.....

Definition of "corpse" will change in K*N years

[Cryofan]

That is why when a cryonicist freezes his head at Alcor, although he may be a corpse today, he will not be one in 300 years. And if indeed he is still a corpse in 300 years, then just chcek again 100 years later. And if still a corpse 100 years, just chcek again 100 years later. Repeat until revived.

Re:Definition of "corpse" will change in K*N years

[b-baggins]

All of which hangs on the assumption, of course, that if and when humans learn how to revive said corspe, they have even the slightest interest in doing so. What I find interesting is the ego of the person who freezes himself in thinking that someone will actually give a crap in 300 years and go to the time and effort to revive him.

Re:Definition of "corpse" will change in K*N years

[Cryofan]

baggins wrote:

All of which hangs on the assumption, of course, that if and when humans learn how to revive said corspe, they have even the slightest interest in doing so.

OK, maybe you are right! However, apply the same algorithm to the problem of whether future humans in any particular year will be interested in reviving me: if they are uninterested in reviving me in the year 2500, I can just wait in the dewar for another 100 years. And my caretakeers will try again in the year 2600. Essentially, nothing changes at -390 F.

You also wrote:

What I find interesting is the ego of the person who freezes himself in thinking that someone will actually give a crap in 300 years and go to the time and effort to revive him.

OK, now apply that same logic to a situation where a man is walking along a sidewalk with a bunch of other people. The sidewalk is immediately adjacent to a steep drop-off. THe man falls off the edge, but grabs for a root and hangs on for dear life. Will you advise him to scream for help from his fellow pedestrians, or will you scold him for daring to have such a huge ego as to think that some pedestrian would actually give a crap?

Oh, but there is a Big Difference, you would say. We cryonicists are from the past. These future people owe us nothing. I disagree. If these future people are so advanced as to be able to revive me, then it is in part because people from MY time helped build the foundations of that society. Maybe some of those future people are even distantly related to me.

Re:Definition of "corpse" will change in K*N years

[b-baggins]

---
Essentially, nothing changes at -390 F.
---

You conveniently forget that it takes time, energy and effort to keep your head at that static -390 F.

I can see it now.

"Due to budget cuts in our company, all frozen units for whom no living relative closer than three generations still exists will be removed from storage and cremated."

---
Oh, but there is a Big Difference, you would say. We cryonicists are from the past.
---

No, you cryonicists are dead. That's a big difference. You're dead, hoping that some time in the future, somebody will learn how to bring the dead back to life, because the freezing process has exploded every cell in your brain.

---
If these future people are so advanced as to be able to revive me, then it is in part because people from MY time helped build the foundations of that society. Maybe some of those future people are even distantly related to me.
---

The only interest they would likely have in you is anthropological/archaeological. And if they're advanced enough to repair the massive cellular damage you caused to yourself in freezing, and bring you back from the dead (because you wait until after you're declared legally dead to get frozen), they'll probably just be able to read your life's memories from your brain without ever starting you back up again anyway. I will admit that the more particularly interesting specimens might very well be reanimated for further study, however. Chances are very good you won't be one of the more interesting ones.

Then again, cultures might have shifted during those years you are frozen and you might all be declared abominations and summarily dumped into a bonfire.

"A million years!"

[payndz]

Yes! Wake me up on December 31st 2999! Just be careful where you insert the career chip. And the hot billionaire Martian intern is *mine*, dammit!

How likely is it:

[Anonymous Coward]

What are the chances we can get ESR to study human hibernation? :)

Just kidding Eric...

dwarf lemur

[Anonymous Coward]

Other subjects of interest include dobutamine, a drug that maintains muscle, and the Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur, the only primate known to hibernate.

Sent them to mars!

Cool idea..

[TobiasSodergren]

.. but what's the purpose of the hibernating ground squirrels in space? A muppet show revival?

Flesh is a design flaw...

[Anonymous Coward]

IT seems easier to emulate A.I. in a radiation hardened computer controlled probe,
than to modify humans for long term space flight.

Though if they combine the new hibernation drugs / gene boosters with the IGF-1 Boosted muscular genes it might work.
( European Molecular Biology Laboratory )

The extra copy of an IGF-1 gene in mice makes them little body builder mice. The enhanced mice don't grow any weaker as they grow older.

So, indeed, future space explorers will be genetically engineered superhumans! KAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!

Just send Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemurs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, wait, a galaxy populated by Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemurs would be bad ...

worthing saga

[joeldg]

If you have ever read the worthing saga the ideas put forth in that book are amazing for what people might do if given the ability to suspend themselves while time goes by.
Setting huge plans in motion while sleeping away, they end up with an entire section of the populace that tries to "live" as long as they possibly can. It is really an interesting take on how things like this could kind of get out of hand.

Book Description

It was a miracle of science that permitted human beings to live, if not forever, then for a long, long time. Some people, anyway. The rich, the powerful--they lived their lives at the rate of one year every ten. Somec created two societies: that of people who lived out their normal span and died, and those who slept away the decades, skipping over the intervening years and events. It allowed great plans to be put in motion. It allowed interstellar Empires to be built.

It came near to destroying humanity.

After a long, long time of decadence and stagnation, a few seed ships were sent out to save our species. They carried human embryos and supplies, and teaching robots, and one man. The Worthing Saga is the story of one of these men, Jason WOrthing, and the world he found for the seed he carried.

Orson Scott Card is "a master of the art of storytelling" (Booklist), and The Worthing Saga is a story that only he could have written.

Re:worthing saga

[essreenim]

I think cryo-freezing is a much better and more ambitious aproach - but not for me.
For robots just so their parts are all in solid stats and would possibly get less damaged from the immense g-force of hyper acceleration!!! : )

Nobodys cro-freezin me. you can't cryo freeze the human soul!

Re:worthing saga

[essreenim]

solid stats
Sorry, I meant 'solid state' as in states of matter - liquid solid gas ...

Re:worthing saga

[stev_mccrev]

Reminds me of 'Dayworld' by Phillip Jose Farmer.

The premise there is that the world gets so overpopulated that they are forced to create 7 totally separate societies - one for each day - MondayWorld, TuesdayWorld, etc. Every house holds 7 families who are allowed to live one day a week and are placed in suspended animation for the other 6 days.

Thus peoples lives are the same length subjectively, but 7 times longer objectively. So subjectively, seasons only last about 2 weeks, etc.

Damn cool book.

Re:Obscure Reference -Answer: SNOWBALL?

[jdavidb]

You are the winner! And actually there were 200 unique rooms in Snowball and its sequels (a great trilogy) but techniques were used to color code rooms and allow the appearance of many thousands more.

+1 funny/morbid

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

I can see the show now:

"Have you got... SPACE DEMENTIA?"

I like my women still during sex

[Douglas Simmons]

Sorry to get tangential, but your insightful comment brings up the issue of many men's preference (or at least my own) that their females remain idle during intercourse. I'm talking intercourse now, obviously not oral/handjobs, which is a whole different story.

For whatever reason, when I'm knocking boots, particularly from behind (either doggy or flat), girls tend to grind back toward me. I guess the idea is to get deeper or make the sex symbolically a more cooperative joint effort, but they end up throwing off my rhythm and make it harder for me to maintain a sense of full control [dominance?] of the activity. After I ask them to cool it on the movement, within minutes they're doing it again.

I think where I was going with this was that your model, though facetious, bares some truth. My instincts (or psychoanalytical issues) are such that I want my woman to relax and enjoy the railing, which to me seems like a good deal since it requires no effort from them -- unless it's missionary in which case they need to keep their legs suspended in air for extended periods of time). As the effort needed is minimal for my needs, perhaps with the right combination of benzodiazepines, dissociative anesthetics and opiates (and acetaminophen for their "headaches"), if they are not in the mood, prior to coitus women could put themselves in a state where they could get what they want (sleep, that with enough chemical juice the drugs could keep them under whilst they receive their banging), and I obviously could proceed get what I want.

Parenthetically, am I the only one here that with or without a woman resorts to using an orgasm as a substitute to sleeping pills?

Re:I like my women still during sex

[nusratt]

wow.
I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
To possibly clarify:
how (if at all) do those feelings vary with the nature of the relationship?
and how do you feel about women on top?

Re:I like my women still during sex

[nlindstrom]

...girls tend to grind back toward me. I guess the idea is to get deeper...

Uh-oh. Sounds like you need to start using this.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about sex, as this is Slashdot and therefore I am a virgin.

Unless of coarse it's hibernating.

[fredmosby]

no text, just the title

+5 Hilarious!

[eugene ts wong]

Oh, man. I was laughing hard. Thanks. You deserve every good modpoint that you can get.

So?

[PhysicsGenius]

He's invested nothing. If he walks away and the kid dies, he loses a few minutes of time and milligrams of protein. Investing years and a lot of effort to protect that tiny initial investment (your argument) doesn't make genetic sense.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's invested nothing. If he walks away and the kid dies, he loses a few minutes of time and milligrams of protein. Investing years and a lot of effort to protect that tiny initial investment (your argument) doesn't make genetic sense.

Dear Puzzled:

Please look up "Survival of the Species"

Re:So?

[Jeremy Erwin]

He's invested nothing. If he walks away and the kid dies, he loses a few minutes of time and milligrams of protein.

Discarding courtship? Interesting reproductive strategy. Have you had much success with it?

Luck of the Irish ...

[Anonymous Coward]

What about Hibernia?

EVERYONE can't hibernate

[Matrix_X]

So here's my question. Who gets to pick who hibernates. Obviously we can't hibernate all the sick people, b/c if there are no cures found, then we have a bunch of sick people waking up. We can't hibernate the people doing the research, b/c it'll never get done. It seems that everyone wants to hibernate (for the most part) but such a system would be couterproductive for humanity and productive for only a few rich businessmen.

Re: European taxpayers, have they put you asleep?!

[Anonymous Coward]

needed (if at all) for inter stellar space travel only

Which happens to be, incidentally, still exactly how many centuries away?
Just when you thought European economies were cash-strapped to the breaking point, and ripe with brewing turmoil over cuts on near-term, down-to-earth issues... :-(

Re:This Sentence

[Anonymous Coward]

wow you mean Bush was able to take over two countries and capture Saddam Hussein in his sleep? Not bad for a Madagascan fat-tailed dwarf lemur.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Definition of death

[roman_mir]

You die when your brain stops showing all signs of activity, not when your heart is stopped.

death

to the Sun!

[chihowa]

Don't forget Pauly Shore and Tom Arnold!

Re:This Sentence

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah hah hah, ah hah hah, ah hah hah FUCK OFF! I hear DU is nice this time of year.

Around here, though, Democratic bile is getting extraordinarily old.

Obvious Reference

[David Gould]

KHAAAN!!!

jakuzy

[Anonymous Coward]

i get all tired and drowsy in a jakuzy.
i don't know why hibernation is always asociated
with cold temperatures ... of course animals
hibernate to safe energy in winter time when
there's not enough food. but humans who "hibernat"
are going to a different planet/star.
i propose not to freeze humans but to put them in
salt-water with the temperture of the water just
slightly below normal body temperatur.
this thought from an embryo in womb ...
methinks with some sleeping pills you can
hibernate humans to 22 hours per day. the other
2 hours for routine tasks and maybe some reading
eating, drinking and watching TV :P

Yeah

[The Infamous Grimace]

I think it's time to blow this scene
Get everybody and their stuff together
Ok, 3..2..1
Lets jam

(tig)