Reinventing the Wheel

bob zee sent in this link about reinventing the wheel, err, tweel, err, whatever. Wheels are an interesting challenge in engineering design: they need to be hard to be durable, soft for a smooth ride, grippy to grab the road, but smooth to reduce rolling resistance, flexible to absorb shocks, yet stiff to reduce heat build-up, and so on. Rubber tires are a relatively recent invention.

Comments

Wrong Direction?

[fembots]

If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel, but let's not give up hope yet. If lobbysts have their way, a new noise-reduction pad and better suspension will be "invented" so that problems like noise and feel of a coarse road surface (introduced by this Tweel) can be eliminated.

It's like somebody created an OS, but it's full of security holes, fear not, we can always create software like firewall and anti-virus to solve those problems.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[SIGALRM]

If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel

I think it's an interesting engineering feat, although they might have a hard time marketing it in Arkansas, where it appears non-pneumatic tires are prohibited for speeds > 10mph.

I wonder if other states maintain such restrictions?

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Crash24]

I agree. In spite of the obvious problems, tt does look promising.
On second thought, what if debris gets caught in the polyurethane spokes?

Re:Wrong Direction?

[DeathFlame]

So they improved it in two ways: It won't go flat. and you get more traction (due to stiffer side stability, which you can get in a narrow profile tire anyways)

But the negatives:

1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel

3) More Expensive - No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems (which probably aren't all that expensive, although they are sometimes troublesome) and you don't have to replace your tires as often, but if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

4) Noise - No one likes loud tires.

Now I doubt they can get the weight down to a point that is ever lower than that of a rubber air filled tire (air is... well very light) but I could see a weight improvement, and the friction improvement both helping with research and design. And the cost of the tires will always probably remain higher, so this looks like long term technology to me.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[mordors9]

In Arkansas.... but they would look good on all the cars up on blocks in the front yards :-)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[MavEtJu]

It's a good thing that it doesn't apply to the railroad :-)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[thomasa]

The Tweel offers a number of benefits beyond the obvious attraction of being impervious to nails in the road. The tread will last two to three times as long as today's radial tires, Michelin says, and when it does wear thin it can be retreaded.

Looks great to me. I'd like tires that last for over 100,000 miles.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[MavEtJu]

Now if a war broke out in Arkansas, can the military be given a fine for driving around in their tanks? (they most likely have a bigger gun than the cop, but two wrongs don't still make a right)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

well, it's not a non pneumatic tire right? it's not a tire at all. It's a tweel, see?

Re:Wrong Direction?

[TheGavster]

It's like somebody created an OS, but it's full of security holes, fear not, we can always create software like firewall and anti-virus to solve those problems.

I like to think of it as moving security code outside of the kernel ;) Lots of little apps working together, and all that ...

Re:Wrong Direction?

[taniwha]

I don't think they're saying they don't wear out - most tires (my Explorer's exploding ones aside) simply wear the tread down due tho things like friction and braking and have to be replaced - these would too - they just wouldn't go blow out at speed on the freeway - which is a good thing - thet might certainly be engineered to last longer (different tradeoffs might be available due to different shapes, less flexing due to inflation, different safety concernsetc) but in the end when bthe tread wears off it will stop being as good at holding you to the road

More importantly - they're being made by a tire company ... who's bottom line wont be improved by selling 1/3 the numbers of tires a year ... but might be by selling/making a larger part of the wheel itself (and holding the patents the other guys have to pay for to get at the technology ..)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't be so sure of that, there are some surprisingly scary materials out there, so it remains to be seen if things like weight arn't resolvable.

Quickshot

Re:Wrong Direction?

[fmobus]

hmm goodyear should be afraid... m$ is coming

Re:Wrong Direction?

[NoMercy]

Great one for criminals trying to out-run the police, no more deflating the tires using mats full of tiny tubes which puncture the tire...

Well also reduces the chance of blowouts, and the hastle of monitoring the pressure of your tire, but all the other problems will no doubt be with us until we give up using things which have wheels :)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[10bt]

speaking of better suspension, has anyone read about bose's new invention?

http://qualitysound.bose.com/pg/learning/project_s ound/bose_suspension.jsp

i don't know if it'll ever be affordable enough to implement in a $20k car, but it's very intriguing stuff.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[nxtr]

It would be interesting to see what it could do for off-roading.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

But three lefts sure do!

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

...and two Wrights make an airplane!

Re:Wrong Direction?

[pz]

1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

The materials they used are proof-of-concept, rather than advanced. With the tweel design, automotive engineers will be liberated from the traditional axle-into-hub design, and the tweel can mount directly on the axle, eliminating the heavy metallic wheel.

2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel

Materials. I'm impressed that they got to within 5% at the first go-around!

3) More Expensive - No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems (which probably aren't all that expensive, although they are sometimes troublesome) and you don't have to replace your tires as often, but if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

Scale of manufacturing will solve that.

4) Noise - No one likes loud tires

Again, materials. Recall that traditional tires have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of man-years of development!

Re:Wrong Direction?

[killa62]

1) Wouldn't a heavy tire glide over road surfaces better because of better inertia, because once it starts moving it keeps moving better than a light object?
2) Ture
3) Where does it say it costs 3x as much, and it lasts 2-3 times longer
4) True also.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Martin Blank]

if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

If they last 3x as long (as the article suggests they might) then it balances out, and there is at least a possibility of savings of time from not having to change the tires as often, not to mention the lower volume of scrap material.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Martin Blank]

That's what the LA Pick is for. Besides, it's more fun to see a suspect go spinning out of control than to see them slow down on flat tires.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Hjalmar]

1) Wouldn't a heavy tire glide over road surfaces better because of better inertia, because once it starts moving it keeps moving better than a light object?

Um, no. Lighter wheels result in smoother ride because the suspension is able to move them up and down quickly over rough surfaces. Heavier wheels don't move as quickly, and movement from uneven surfaces winds up being transmitted to the rest of the car. This is why vehicles with big wheels (like trucks) tend to have a poorer ride quality than cars.

Also, lighter wheels can be pushed back down after bouncing over a bump more quickly than a heavy wheel, which means better traction.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhh, put some sort of flexible shielding around the spokes???

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Tongo]

If I RTFA correctly, the tires should be better for off-roading since they will wrap around the bumps/rocks easier. I would really like to see how these would scale up to 36" tweels, especially if they can make them lighter.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[owlstead]

The law is supposed to strengthen rules created by society. If any law restricts change within that society then that law should be rewritten. In other words: society is the base, not the law.

I presume that if - after some rigorous testing - this tweel has been found to be a success, the law will change accordingly without to much fuss. If it doesn't, it is time to take a serious look at your political leaders.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[marcobi]

Next they will be inventing the square wheel, better then the round one because it will not roll away when left unattended. Next evolution will be the triangular wheel (so one of the four bumps is avoided)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[smiggly]

If it lasts 3 times as long, that dosent mean it won't be more profitable. Tires are a competitive market. The profit margin is likely less the 10%
So lets assume its 10% and the new twheel lasts 3 times longer than its counterpart regular tire which costs $100.
The new air-less tire retails at $270. Because of the patents they dont have competition besides the normal air filled tires, and it only costs them $200 to produce this tire. they get $70 profit margin compared to the $30 they would have gotten otherwise. The customer happily buy this new kind over the competition because he saves $30, and gets the other advantages (like unpuncturable, 1/3 as often replacment etc)

Re:Wrong Direction?

[tbuskey]

One of the hardest things to get for a speed run at Bonneville salt flats is decent tires. Some people have abandoned rubber for solid steel wheels.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Pulse_Instance]

Yes I agree, however do you not think that the Americans should already be doing that given all the complaints most of them bring about their laws already.

Somehow I do not see not being allowed to use tweels as the last straw. However funny that may be.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[emptor]

Well, the interstates were started as the National Defense Highway System .

When President Eisenhower went to Kansas to announce the interstate highway system, he announced it as "the National Defense Highway System." In 1956 President Eisenhower signed legislation establishing the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways (about 41,000 miles of roads).

Now, what your typical razorback trooper's going to say might have as much to do the size of your gun as it does with how much tarmac you've chewed up.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

A guy at work just informed me that a set of chrome rims on your SUV can set you back $15k. Cost doesn't matter if people want it. Anyway, here's the marketing campaign: Put a sticker on it of Calvin peeing on a set of bridgestone and the things will fly off the shelves even if they cost 10x as much and last half as long.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Canadians have the right idea - squares are much better than circles.

Hmm. Then again, you're probably just a yuppy city dweller who works within walking distance of his home. Listen, man, we can't all work at coffee/record/sex shops.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

what if debris gets caught in the polyurethane spokes

I don't know, but I'll bet it's not nearly as funny as what happens when the car drives off with a small animal sheltering in the spokes.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Chuckstar]

I would assume that a production version would cover the spokes.

For a couple reasons:

1) Debris getting in the spokes could damage them or interfere with their flexibility.

2) Make the twheel more aerodynamic.

3) Visual similarity to existing tires.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, for serious offroading, weight is highly desireable, in the right spots... Namely the tires. Some guys are filling their tires with leadshot and water!

That said, I highly doubt that this is going to be nearly as flexible or ***durable*** as a good offroad tire properly inflated.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Franklin Pierce]

Other negatives:

Uses a small percentage of the total volume of the tyre to support and cushion.

I mean, seriously, solid tyre hoo-ha surfaces every decade or two with the regularity of a herpes outbreak only to fade into the obscurity it deserves. Pneumatic tyres are that way for a reason, and it's called a compromise between simplicity, light-weight, and performance. You can only sacrifice so much in one direction before it becomes simply unacceptable.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[theLOUDroom]

It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

Perhaps even more importantly IT'S ALSO HARD TO STOP.

Another point you failed to metion is that in addition the the myriad of tires widths, aspect ratios and size we have already, the air pressure can no longer be adjusted for the weight of the vehicle. Instead of stocking ONE 205 50 15 tire you'll need to stock a number of them in various "equivalent tire pressures".

Yet another potenital problem I with solid tires is that small failures in the structure of the tire may go unnoticed until your run-flat tire rips itself apart at 80 MPH. In the case of pneumatic tires, a crack will lead to a lead, which will lead to you replacing the tire.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[flashgc]

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Wolfrider]

--You know, Yamaha V-Max motorcycle owners will be champing at the bit to get these new solid tires; typical rear-tire life on a V-max is only ~5000 miles before they have to be replaced.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/products/unitinfo/2/mc y/4/23/0/yamaha_v_max.aspx

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Zaphod_Beebleburp]

1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

The materials they used are proof-of-concept, rather than advanced. With the tweel design, automotive engineers will be liberated from the traditional axle-into-hub design, and the tweel can mount directly on the axle, eliminating the heavy metallic wheel.

Yes, you may be able to get rid of the axle/hub design of the wheel, but this design effectively moves the hub inside the tire which is a bad thing. The closer the rotating mass of the hub is to the centerline of the axle, the easier it is to control with suspension components. This also increases brake wear dramatically.

2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel

Materials. I'm impressed that they got to within 5% at the first go-around!

It would be interesting to see how they are measuring the increased friction. Is it friction in the driveline components due to increased wheel weight or due to the flexibility of the tire. My guess is the former hasn't been measured but the latter is (somewhat) easily remedied using a different compound.

3) More Expensive - No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems (which probably aren't all that expensive, although they are sometimes troublesome) and you don't have to replace your tires as often, but if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here

Scale of manufacturing will solve that.

Just like scale of manufacturing makes prescription drugs cheaper. If they can sell it, they'll charge out the wazoo to fund their next R&D project. I'm not a firm believer in scale of manufacturing. Then again, it is a function of modern industry.

4) Noise - No one likes loud tires

Again, materials. Recall that traditional tires have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of man-years of development!

Unfortunately, they have millions and millions of man years of physics against them. Having ribs inside the tires increases the road forces transmitted through the tire to the axle. Air is an excellent, and cheap, insulator of sound, heat, and pressure. When a pneumatic tire hits a pothole, the force is transferred through the sidewalls and tread of the tire. Also, flexing of the sidewall allows some degree of predictability as to when the wheel is going to lose traction, a comfort zone so to speak. Then again, I'm an advocate for safer drivers ahead of safer cars so I'm pretty biased

Re:Wrong Direction?

[liteyear]

the tires should be better for off-roading since they will wrap around the bumps/rocks easier

Nah, I disagree. That's easily achieved with todays tyres by dropping down to <15psi (even <0psi on light buggies with big stiff tyres). What you can't do with the tweels is adjust this firmness/wrapping factor. The tweels do let you gain some lateral stability without sacrificing radial cushioning, but you are still left with a fixed tradeoff - either you have: stiff, responsive, less flex causing heat/wear, short contact patch giving light steering, high road performance tyres; or you have soft, cushy, traction enhancing wrap on uneven surfaces, long contact patch giving high floatation, high offroad performance tyres. With pneumatic tyres at least the tradeoff has a degree of adjustability. Still... I'm very interested in the possibilities of purpose built off-road tweels. Hmm....

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems

there was never a "need" for that. I have driven cars for over 20 years without them and they work fine. If the drivers are too stupid or lazy to check their tire pressure bi monthly that is their own problem.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Deusy]

"But the negatives: ..."

Summary: requires more petrol [gas] and makes more noise.

Um, that sounds like an American motorist's dream.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's space in that contraption to put a balloon, and hey presto! Pneumatic tweel!

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

So what's wrong with solid tyres? (maybe made out of something a bit elastic and quite light).

Re:Wrong Direction?

[RKThoadan]

1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move

The article doesn't exactly state that. It says: And so far, the Tweel is no lighter than the tire and wheel it replaces.

That could mean it is heavier. But I take it to mean it's in the same general ballpark. Keep in mind this is also replacing the wheel assembly with lighter materials. Also, under sufficient presure, air can get pretty heavy.

The article does mention that these can be re-treaded. If that is reasonably effective and economical then that could result in significant long term savings.

The article itself does say that regular cars aren't the anticipated first use. I can definitely see the military taking a big interest in these.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[beerygaz]

they just wouldn't go blow out at speed on the freeway - which is a good thing

True, but there are other safety concerns. Delamination of the tread, catastrophic failure of the "spokes", etc. If you com outside and you tyre is flat at the bottom you know there's a problem, how do you tell with tweels until something lets go?

I don't want to get in the way of progress and innovation, but like the man said, it's going to be quite some time before we see some commercial evolution of the tweel at each corner of the average family saloon.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[calethix]

1) It Weighs More - and that weight has a huge impact because rolling mass is much more difficult to move
2) More Friction - Again, a drop in efficency due to difficult in rolling the wheel
3) More Expensive - No longer a need for "expensive" tire pressure monitoring systems (which probably aren't all that expensive, although they are sometimes troublesome) and you don't have to replace your tires as often, but if the tweels cost 3x as much, there is no saving here
4) Noise - No one likes loud tires.

Did you read a different article than me?
It said: "And so far, the Tweel is no lighter than the tire and wheel it replaces." and "Almost everything else about the Tweel is undetermined at this early stage of development, including serious matters like cost".

I don't see how you came up with points 1 and 3.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[ChrisMaple]

Laws get changed when technology improves. In the 1950s, restrictions on headlights would make today's non-sealed-beam, steerable headlights illegal.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[Martin Blank]

Cost doesn't matter to some people if they want it. People with chrome rims expensive enough to have bought another car are a niche market. Most people continue to use the basic set that was fit at the factory, and for these people, this might well make sense. If it's not at a reasonable price, though, it will be relegated to a similar niche market.

Re:Wrong Direction?

[WD_40]

Wow, that is very interesting. Thanks for that link!

Wheels?

[aznxk3vi17]

Out of all the things to reinvent... the wheel?

I'm still waiting on that new mousetrap! That Rube-Goldberg device of a game just isn't cutting it.

Re:Wheels?

[Haydn Fenton]

Haha, the fools!
Don't they know the wheel is patented?

Re:Wheels?

[Haydn Fenton]

Bah, damn link.. Here is the correct link.

Re:Wheels?

[MikeXpop]

In all fairness, this really isn't reinventing the wheel. The Tweel is still a wheel. They did reinvent the tire though.

Re:Wheels?

[cmdr_beeftaco]

For those not in US he means tyre. Why is Slashdot so US focused?

Re:Wheels?

[Anonymous Coward]

which fuckin fag modded this down to 0? 0 and -1 are for redundant, troll or otherwise offensive or inappropriate comments. this was completely on topic and relevant.

Re:Wheels?

[WillDraven]

I fail to see what ancient Phoenician cities have to do with wheels.

Re:Wheels?

[lessthanjakejohn]

:wtf: Yeah, posts are now requiered to be submitted in seven different languages.

Re:Wheels?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop whining. It's only karma after all. It's not like it's really worth anything in the Real World(TM).

Oh, just curious... how do you know they're a 'fuckin fag'?

Filed under "Technology"...

[Vexler]

Great. Back to the basics. What's next - the incline plane?

Re:Filed under "Technology"...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the computer desktop.

Re:Filed under "Technology"...

[JasontheMason]

Nah, probably sliced bread.

Re:Filed under "Technology"...

[b1scuit]

No no no. It's the "Twincline plane. Now slanted on both sides!"

Bikes!

[odyrithm]

"Engineers at Michelin's American technology center here envision a future in which vehicles would ride on what they call the Tweel, a combined tire and wheel that could never go flat because it contains no air"

Please let them bring these out for motorbikes, thats one of those things we bikers dream about.. a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes.

Re:Bikes!

[blew_fantom]

i suspect the gyroscopic nature of motorcycle wheels/tires would present its own unique challenges. motorcycle tires going 'pop' have more to do with heat and proper air pressure than anything else. admittedly, it would be a rather interesting application of the technology. i for one, welcome our new airless rubbered overlords.

Re:Bikes!

[budgenator]

a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes. That's from being overloaded, those BMW's climbing over your ass get heavy. Flashing lights mean get the hell in the slow lane or you'll get run over, 100mph only in the urban zones; unless things have changed a bunch since the late '70's

Re:Bikes!

[Anonymous Coward]

a combined tire and wheel that could never go flat because it contains no air

And yet the picture clearly shows it does contain air, but not under presure.

Re:Bikes!

[pipingguy]

Back when I was working with the R&D department of a major industrial gas manufacturer *cough*not*Linde*cough* their marketing department was looking to commercialize the idea of tire-filling with nitrogen. Apparently there are a bunch of advantages as a result of studies done with truck fleets, etc. It's pretty expensive though, and if you're a real sucker they'll try to get you to fill them up with helium so that your vehicule experiences less unsprung weight.

Re:Bikes!

[Lumpy]

sorry but if you drive that way and you want to be safe then you have to pay the fees for that.

and that is buying new rubber much more often. every time I have seen a motorcycle blowout is because of poor maintaince on the motorcycle and it's tires.

if you want to ride that fast safely, do it on new tires RATED for that driving. risking your life at 155kph on 3 year old tires is pure stupidity.

although I have not met many crotch rocket owners that were smart.. I'm sure they are out there and riding on known good tires.

Obvious idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wheels are an interesting challenge in engineering design: they need to be hard to be durable, soft for a smooth ride, grippy to grab the road, but smooth to reduce rolling resistance, flexible to absorb shocks, yet stiff to reduce heat build-up, and so on. "

And yet we can't patent any of it.

Re:Obvious idea.

[rbarreira]

I bet it's possible (and that it's usually done) to patent specific innovative aspects of wheel making like the ones which produce the desirable effects you talked about!

Re:Obvious idea.

[flossie]

And yet we can't patent any of it.

Funny ... but wrong.

horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[G4from128k]

That picture with those paddle spokes in the tire makes me wonder about aerodynamic drag (and noise too). The top of a rotating tire has an air speed that is twice the vehicle speed. Those paddles should do wonders at turing gasoline into stirred the air. I can only hope that they will enclose the spokes in a smooth sidewall.

On the otherhand, if they angled the spokes properly, the tire would suck the air out from under the car and create a wonderful ground suction effect from improved cornering (but even worse fuel efficiency).

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[JesseL]

It looks very similar to the patterns used on many conventional wheels, I don't think that's going to be a big problem.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[nizo]

I figure the loud swooshing noise made by the tires would actually be a bonus, since it would drown out all the weird rattling noises my car normally makes. Plus I can only imagine how cool the water would look flying out the sides of the tires after a big rainstorm.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[sreid]

my bet is that it's a cutout to show you how it's made inside, if not they could put this on off road vehicles treading water

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Leperflesh]

Gee, do you think maybe these engineers aren't total idiots?

I mean, seriously.

Not to be mean. It's a thought. I'm sure it took them all of 12 seconds to decide not to expose a bunch of radial fins on the side of the tire. Maybe another 4 to decide not to make the tire out of chalk, too. I bet they spent another 9 rejecting granite sidewalls as an option.

-Lep

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[BradNelson]

On the otherhand, if they angled the spokes properly, the tire would suck the air out from under the car and create a wonderful ground suction effect

Would this also help in inclement weather? Like rain or wet conditions? Would this help to stabilize the vehicle and keep it from hydroplaning?

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[fitten]

....and maybe it is a cutaway view so you can see what's inside the thing that removes the requirement for pressurized air?...

I know when I saw that it didn't need to be filled with pressurized air, I wanted to know what was inside it that made it different from run-flats, which can't go high speeds for long distances.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy Shit Dude, are you serious? Thats a cut away drawing.

Of course with text like:
"Those paddles should do wonders at turing gasoline into stirred the air. "

We shouldn't wonder if you are serious.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[mOoZik]

Are you an idiot? No, seriously. That was a CUTOUT so you could see what it looks like inside! Do you think any engineer would be so stupid to design a tire like that? If it didn't have a cutout, someone as ignorant as you would proclaim that it looks no different than a typical radial!

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Moofie]

"The top of a rotating tire has an air speed that is twice the vehicle speed"

But the bottom of a rotating tire has an air speed of ZERO. So, if you compute the ratio of the top air speed 2A to the bottom air speed 0A you get a divide by zero so it must be impossible to make wheels that work! EVERY WHEEL YOU'VE EVER SEEN IS IMPOSSIBLE!

I wonder if the engineers thought about the problems that you managed to spot when you examined the marketing image for four seconds. Nah, probably not. Stupid engineers.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, do you think maybe these engineers aren't total idiots?


Nah, they demo'd it on a SHT. What more evidence do you need?

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[olyar]

For what its worth, I have a master's degree in Mechanical Engineering and am, in fact, an idiot. So its not impossible...

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Hoi Polloi]

I'm sure that the plastic "spokes" are exposed only as a cut-away demonstration of the tire's construction.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting thought. Imagine if the wheels were designed to allow or even suck air (and water) up THROUGH the tread. Given that the tire doesn't have to hold air, there is no longer any reason not to make it full of holes. All those fancy water channelling designs would be obsolete overnight

That said, I can't imagine them getting away from using separate rims in the near future. At least some kind of an adaptor plate will be needed for different manufacturers and requirements.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Anonymous Coward]

hydroplaning is a remove-water-from-under-tread excercise for a given car velocity and amount of standing water.

Water doesn't compress, so if your tire tread design results in enough water being trapped, you can force the tire contact patch off of the pavement.

And, as we all know, the dynamic coefficient of friction (i.e., when the tire is skidding) for most things is lower than the static coefficient of friction (when the tire is "rolling" normally along). Throw in a lubricant (water layer) between the two, and all hell breaks loose when that static friction interface is interrupted.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[owlstead]

You are probably right. The NY times looses points for not pointing out this fact though. Normally a cut-out would be showing the inside of a *part* of the wheel as well, making it obvious that it is in fact a cut-out. This is needlessly confusing.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[St. Arbirix]

He was looking at the amphibious version.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I won't get run over by electric cars when I forget to look both ways because I can't hear the damn things.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[afroborg]

ummm the OP was talking about the spokes inside the *tires* not the rims...

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[pipingguy]

I have no degree whatsoever, but am also an idiot. Welcome to the club.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[xRelisH]

Seems like he misunderstood the image. Interesting idea though, have tires ever been used to create some sort of downforce? I have no idea how this would work, but it might be an interesting prospect.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[i41Overlord]

Gee, do you think maybe these engineers aren't total idiots?

I mean, seriously.

Not to be mean. It's a thought. I'm sure it took them all of 12 seconds to decide not to expose a bunch of radial fins on the side of the tire. Maybe another 4 to decide not to make the tire out of chalk, too. I bet they spent another 9 rejecting granite sidewalls as an option.

Once in a while I start to believe things like that. I start to think that "experts" know what they're doing. But then I see a major company release something like the Pontiac Aztec and I realize that just because some people are in a position to make a decision doesn't mean they should be in that position.

Who gave the greenlight to such a monstrosity? I don't know anybody who found that vehicle attractive. It has since been cancelled afer a short production run.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Behold:
http://roadandtrack.com/article.asp?secti on_id=20& article_id=1691&page_number=4&preview=

Quote:
The spokes, tuned for each vehicle application, are chemically bonded to the aluminum hub for life. With no sidewalls to speak of, the Tweel certainly looks bizarre, but remember, there's no need for this tire to hold air.

It was not a cutout.

Re:horrible aerodynamic drag on paddle-wheel tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Behold:
http://roadandtrack.com/article.asp?secti on_id=20& article_id=1691&page_number=4&preview=

Quote:
The spokes, tuned for each vehicle application, are chemically bonded to the aluminum hub for life. With no sidewalls to speak of, the Tweel certainly looks bizarre, but remember, there's no need for this tire to hold air.

It was not a cutout.

I'm posting this more than once to make sure that the logged in posters eash get a /. message on it.

Seriously guys

[Britz]

When was the last time anyone of you had a flat tire?

Re:Seriously guys

[Crash24]

When was the last time anyone of you had a flat tire?

Last week, you insensitive clod.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

2 weeks ago.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Last week, with my bike :\

Re:Seriously guys

[random735]

most recently, a few weeks ago when i was in cairo and the taxi driver hit a pothole, bending both rims on the passenger side, leaving the tires flat.

before that, about 2 years ago when i hit a roofing nail, causing a slow leak (woke up the next morning, tire was flat)

then we could also count biking...in which case i've had more than i want to count, and a bike tire that can't go flat would be awfully nice...nothing sucks more than having to stop and patch a tire in the middle of a bike ride...plus having to carry all the tools needed to do the job.

this idea has merits, contrary to what your post seems to imply.

Re:Seriously guys

[LurkerXXX]

Last month. What did you think that spare tire in your trunk was for? Flats happen.

Re:Seriously guys

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Last month I hit a pot hole in the middle of the mall parking lot (didn't see it, the whole parking lot was a lake due to the warm temps and rain) puncturing the sidewall of the tire.

Why do you ask?

Re:Seriously guys

[dgatwood]

I've had three side blowouts in a year on my minivan. Apparently for some weight classes of vehicles, the sidewalls can't handle being looked at funny. Even a light brush with a curb at 1-2 mph will blow out the sides, and they're completely flat by the time you can turn into the nearest parking lot ten feet later.

Needless to say, I'm changing tire brands next time around. I never had these sorts of problems on the factory tires.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried these a few years ago on my pedal cycle - they were crap though to be honest - squished down making a horrible noise as they rolled along the road and seemed to absorb huge amounts of my energy!

If you mean a motorcycle - I had a nail in my tyre on that as well. Only a slow puncture but VERY annoying. Sod's Law - it was the tyre I'd just replaced.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

a few weeks ago, and a lot last year (nail was in the tire, finally patched it.. after my donut went flat =P)

mrp-

Re:Seriously guys

[TomorrowPlusX]

Last April, when I was going about 75 mph on 495 ( Washington DC beltway ) late at night and hit a pothole the size of a beachball. It bent my rim and my tire deflated -- and then it shredded before I could pull to the shoulder. Thank heaven I didn't lose control.

Shit happens. And, I've had plenty of bike flats as well.

That said, the tweel doesn't sound like it would have helped much here; I imagine it would have been destroyed just as well.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

factory tires? yeek. perhaps you're buing the wrong type of tire (car tires on a minivan arent gonna work, as i suspect you may have learned). but factory tires are usually good for up to 15,000 miles, if you're lucky.

Re:Seriously guys

[random735]

yeah i meant bicycle, and I did remember greentyre, though i never tried them...seemed like they'd be pretty heavy. interesting to hear someone actually tried them though.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

does the average /.er get out of the house enough to represent the statistical norm?

Re:Seriously guys

[zeus_tfc]

I got one Dec 18th (this last one), at 2:00 in the afternoon, and had to change the tire in sub-zero temperatures. I couldn't get warm for the rest of the day. Then I tried to get it fixed that day so that I didn't have to drive to work the next day on one of those donuts. Unfortunately, noone was open because it was Sunday.

I could do without going through that again.

Re:Seriously guys

[jamesh]

I have had approx 6 flat tyres in my car-owning life.

1. ~1995, Leyland Mini, real right tyre, nail
2. ~1998, Morris 850 (Mini), rear left tyre exploded at 60mph due to friction with the shock absorber. My bad.
3. ~2004, Holden Commodore, rear right tyre, nail.
4. ~2004, Same Holden Commodore, same tyre, slow leak of unkown cause
5. ~2004, Same Holden Commodore, same tyre, slow leak due to bad repair of #4. This is how you learn which tyre shops to stay away from.
6. ~2004, Same Holden Commodore, same tyre, nail.

If you are implying that modern cars don't get punctures, then you are wrong. A nail through a tyre is going to put a hole in it.

Re:Seriously guys

[mko]

Re bike tires, I haven't had a flat for quite some time with Schwalbe Marathon (http://www.schwalbetires.com/) tires, shards are no problem, thorns or nails might puncture them in some cases.

Re:Seriously guys

[jamesh]

That's one advantage of the modern wheel+tyre combination, the tyre might explode but the approximate shape of the wheel will probably be preserved in all but the worst incidents (where a flat tyre is probably the least of your worries).

Having the entire _wheel_ disintegrate would put a serious damper on your ability to retain control of your vehicle.

Re:Seriously guys

[homer_ca]

On average about once every three years. Usually it's from a nail on the road.

Re:Seriously guys

[Fear the Clam]

When was the last time anyone of you had a flat tire?

1999. Before that, 1997 and 1990.

Perhaps a better question would be "How much time do you spend kneeling on the ground with a tire pressure gauge making sure that your tires are inflated properly?"

I check my tires every other week. Not fun when there's snow or it's been raining.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you looked for the spare in a modern high end car lately? Some of them still have a place where you could put one, others not even that.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

try using the proper pleasure, numb-skull

Re:Seriously guys

[emrysk]

I found my tires deflated (a prank, apparently) in the school parking lot about two hours ago. Quite the timing for this to appear on Slashdot.

Re:Seriously guys

[m0llusk]

Actually, underinflation is an extremely common problem with inflatable tires. This reduces mileage, increases noise, and can reduce manuverability and also increase the probability of a rupture. If the design problems with this "tweel" thing can be worked out it might be a superior solution without these risks.

As far as the aerodynamics of exposed ribs go, it seems that the example in the photograph was intended for initial testing of this concept on Segway scooters. If you are driving a Segway fast enough for wind resistance to be a big factor then your clothes and hairstyle will be the first things to check and get under control.

Re:Seriously guys

[Feanturi]

Last year, and what was worse, it happened just as I was getting home, so I didn't notice anything was wrong until the next day. By that point, the tire had fully deflated, leaving me with not enough room to get a jack under the car to do anything about it. I wound up having to put a 4x4 block of wood behind the flat and back up over it, causing permanent damage to the otherwise repairable tire, and possibly wrecking the rim. But at least I was able to get the jack under it and replace it for the spare in the trunk. Nasty, glad it was an old crappy car that I didn't care about.

Re:Seriously guys

[sometimesdee]

On a slightly related tangent, "Segway Creator Invents Round Thingy"

Re:Seriously guys

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

You assume that if this new wheel is damaged, that it would completely disintergate, causing a greater lose of control than a blowen tire. Exactly what in the hell are you basing this assumption on?

Re:Seriously guys

[St. Arbirix]

If I had mod points I'd mod you up since the only time I've ever gotten a flat tire was when I ran head on into a curb at 45mph whilst delivering pizzas several years ago.

If I had mod points I'd mod you up, but there's almost no real wood in my apartment on which to knock.

Re:Seriously guys

[georgewilliamherbert]

but factory tires are usually good for up to 15,000 miles, if you're lucky.

Either that's the worst telegraphed sarcasm I have seen on /. in months, or you're chewing tires up like bubblegum. Where do you drive, Daytona and Indianapolis exclusively?

Try 40,000 miles to 50,000 miles. Most new tires come with warranties for 40,000 miles or more.

Re:Seriously guys

[dgatwood]

The factory times lasted about 30k, IIRC. I meant that I didn't have three blowouts with the factory tires....

Re:Seriously guys

[geekoid]

"How much time do you spend kneeling on the ground with a tire pressure gauge making sure that your tires are inflated properly?"

none. it gets checked when I get my oil changed.

Re:Seriously guys

[geekoid]

jack up the opposit end of the flat, put blockes under it, then you should have enough room to get a jack closer to the tire.
But I got to say : What kind of a dipshit designes a car that can't be jacked up when the tire is flat?

Unless it was a custon lowered vehical. In that case I just got to say: What kind of a dipshit modifies a car that can't be jacked up when the tire is flat?

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too, but it was a year ago, on top of that, right after I got it changed, the spare went flat, huge chunk of metal in it. While I was freezing cold I managed to strip one of the bolts, so I couldn't remove the spare, but either way had to get towed. It was the one time I wasn't carrying my cell phone so I had to hike 6 miles through the snow to reach a phone. Anyways that day sucked and it seem like everything went wrong.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried that, and figured out that some of those jokers doing the service would inflate the tires to twice the correct pressure, other times under-inflate them. I guess what I'm saying is that it is something very important that is easy for you to check, so you are stupid for putting so much trust in them because people fuck up all the time. But it's your life. Maybe you deserve to have an accident due to someone else's negligence.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Couple years ago. But then again it was on tires with 5/32" tread depth. About a year earlier than that I replaced two tires, in short order, that easily could have gone flat due to massive sidewall bubbles.

Then again, my car's going on 8 years old and hasn't hit 60,000 miles. If the last flat tire I got was a couple years ago, a normal person would get them at least 2-3 times more often than that.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Try your head. It appears to be made of a very thick wood-like substance.

Re:Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, in fairness to dipshits, it may not be the driver's fault that the car is so low.

I had a group of brain surgeons install new springs & shocks a couple weeks ago. Let's see:
1) Put front springs on the rear and vice versa.
2) Put driver's front 2 inches lower than the rest of the car
3) Installed numerous bolts with impact wrenches that shouldn't be installed that way (snap city when you go to remove them)

It was virtually impossible to get the front at a reasonable height due to the soft rear springs supporting 60% of the weight instead of 40%. Something they would have noticed if they'd been capable of rubbing two brain cells together to create a spark of intelligence.

Re:Seriously guys

[jamesh]

This is slashdot. My assumption is based on pure uninformed speculation. Did you expect anything else???

To be honest, I did read the article but somehow missed the picture of the (t?)wheel in the top left corner and so my imagination came up with something else. Something a lot more inclined to disintegrate.

Re:Seriously guys

[jamesh]

s/left/right

I must be lysdexic.

Re:Seriously guys

[Britz]

Ok, I knew it before, but I got proven again, moderators don't bother to RTFA. So if you care for Karma and respond to anything from the article that is not in the slashdot snip you need to quote the article!

Apart from this I guess German roads seem to be cleaner. I never had a flat tire, nor did my dad. Also I can't remember a friend complaining about it. Maybe it is due to me riding a bike a lot and I certainly had my share of flat tires on a bike, but then again the article doesn't talk about bike tires at all.

Re:Seriously guys

[Feanturi]

It wasn't customized, it was just old (1980), but I should have mentioned it wasn't on pavement either, the parking lot to my apartment has little chunks of broken up concrete here and there surrounded with hills and valleys of dirt. So the solution I used was the easiest, given that I didn't really care about the car as it was getting to its last legs anyhow, I just wanted it to go.

Re:Seriously guys

[RogerWilco]

I don't know if they are available where you live but
Vredestein Perfect (MAX) http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?ProductID=5300006034
wor k very well for me. I've used these one's too: http://www.dutch-perfect.nl/
never tried the Schwalbe Marathon's or http://www.kendausa.com/bicycle/technology.cfm K-shield

I hope that's not a Final Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's goig to fill with crud and get unbalanced really easily.

Even if it doesn't need air, that thing needs sidewalls.

Re:I hope that's not a Final Design

[fitten]

...or it's an engineering cutaway view so you can see what's inside it...

I bet you could have used a V-8...

Re:Slow news day

[Anonymous Coward]

He's just waiting for Roland Piquepaille to wake up...

Reinventing the wheel...

[Anonymous Coward]

What a novel idea! Better apply for a US Patent! (hurry, or someone else will and sue you for infringement)

Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Please let them bring these out for motorbikes, thats one of those things we bikers dream about.. a tyre that never goes pop when your doing 100mph down the autobarnes."

If you're doing a 100MPH down the Autobahn? Tires going 'pop' are going to be the least of your worries. Of course 'pop' could simply be Darwin calling another biker home.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[phoenix321]

You obviously never drove any German Autobahn, I'm sure. 100mph ~ 160kph and that's a normal vehicle speed over here. 130kph is officially "suggested" speed, but especially bike riders go lengths and lengths beyond that. 250kph ~ 155 mph is upper limit for most German motorbikers.

Trucks and heavy vehicles can go 80kph/50mph, buses 100kph/62mph and everything else is unlimited by law.
Compact cars, 3-doors etc. usually drive between 80kph (old and rugged cars/drivers) and 130kph with a few exceptions, notably Volkswagen "Lupo" and "Golf" in the "suicide engine" version with 120 or more HP, they are driven by lunatics 200kph or more no matter if the road is dry or below solid ice. But they are few and far between and you sure know why.

Middle-class goes between 140 and 200kph, that range usually covers the bulk of cars. High powered suicide versions exist in this class, too, with 200 or more HP. And people who own them drive accordingly, tendency stable - more airbags 'n stuff I suppose.
Cars beyond 200kph are less than 10%, usually the upper BMW, Mercedes Benz and Volkswagen models. They announce themselves from half a kilometre away with full headbeam and constant left turn indicator. If any driver is in front of them, they will brake at the last moment possible, if ever. Most other drivers cave in long before and leave the fastest inner lane rather quick if they see them approaching.

Tire popping is seldom cause for accidents, most of the time it's trucks or other vehicles breaking out of 80kph formation on 1st going into 2nd lane overtaking some while forcing a "regular" car going 180kph or less out from 2nd to 3rd fastest lane. Where they collide with a suicide compact or fast upper class car from behind.

I don't know that many Autobahn routes here in Germany, but I'd wager 30-40% of all routes are unlimited and 3-lane. The rest is 2-lane and limited to 120kph/75mph or 100kph, as the road condition permits. Autobahns passing larger cities are often limited for "lower noise level", near poorer cities for "speed control fills city coffers"-reason.

It is not uncommon to have limits on a road to exist for various reasons, wind, noise, whatever, but road condition permits MUCH higher speeds. Everyone drives according to road condition then, bearing the risk of being "flashed" by police with radar speed cameras. Poorer municipalities are actually notorious for this and you cannot drive more than 200kms without meeting one of these cameras if you're unlucky.

In cities, there are even more cameras. Can't drive longer than 30 minutes without seeing one in any city. It is even possible to have the German police temporarily limit a normally unlimited stretch of 3-lane Autobahn to 80kph or less and then lurking for and cashing in on "speeders" at the end of that temp limit zone. Shameless entrapment.

Fines for speeding ~25 euros for less than 10km over, 50 euros for less than 20kms over and 100 or 200 euros for everything beyong, leading quickly to 2000 or losing license for more than 40 above.

Germany has the most eased road laws in Europe, so nobody obeys the speed limit nowhere. In answer to that, speed limits are set much too low everywhere in hope the drivers will go their "usual 20kph" above and still keep on track. That way police and law enforcement can endlessly bilk drivers for their money while always having law on their side and public outrage silent. Nice trick, eh?

In Norway for example, 10kph over the limit are rather expensive: 200 eur, 600 for over 20kph. There, speed limits are set almost right, with around 5-10kph left above. Eastern Europe speed limits are equally hard for everyone carrying Euros in their pocket but speed limits are brutally true. Any limit posted is true to the letter if not a bit daring on a dry and sunny day.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[k4_pacific]

I'd think that they'd want a lower speed limit for bikes - so that the organs are usably intact after an accident.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[afroborg]

Sounds like the comment of someone who doesn't ride to me.

If you don't ride you'll never understad why we do...

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[Anonymous Coward]

Cute... real cute!

Bikes are real dangerous, unlike those metal cages that wrap around your crushed body like a tin suit, eh? Nah! sleepy car drivers never hurt themselves and/or others. Never happens! I chuckle very time I go by the impound lot and see another rolled-over SUV, probably driven by one like yourself who doesn't understand real safety. The perception of safety makes you lazy.

Keep telling yourself how much smarter you are than the bikers while driving like an irresponsible a-hole. Absolve yourself of all responsibility, go ahead, it feels good right!?

I'll say it again; it's the driver that's dangerous, not the vehicle. An evolved mind would see this and not make silly organ donor jokes.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[WiPEOUT]

Have ridden, and the combination of being heavily dependent upon avoiding others' mistakes to survive in addition to the elitist mentality of riders (case in point "If you don't ride you'll never understad why we do") has me driving in my relatively safe and stable cage.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[pipingguy]

...driven by lunatics 200kph or more no matter if the road is dry or below solid ice. But they are few and far between and you sure know why.

You reminded me of one of my Toronto-Montreal trips back when I was invincible. It was during a blizzard (couldn't see even 100 feet ahead, pretty much a whiteout), and those goddam 18-wheeler truck drivers kept passing me and then slowing down in front of me. Those bastards!

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[glassjaw rocks]

Let it be known, guys, God drives a motorcycle, obviously.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[The_Mr_Flibble]

A friend who used to drive a tank was stationed in Germany and one time he was blasting down the Autobahn in their tank at some ridiculus speed when all the traffic stopped (an accident of some sort all though by the time my friend reached that part it had gone) Well has anyone here seen a tank stop they are very good at it and they have a tendancy to pivot up in the air a bit. Well this was all fine and dandy, they didn't hit the car in front, however the guy in the merc behind them was not so lucky his car couldn't stop as fast as the tank so when the tank finaly came back down there was a merc there to cussion the fall.

Re:Bikes!-Organ Donors.

[turgid]

I'll say it again; it's the driver that's dangerous, not the vehicle. An evolved mind would see this and not make silly organ donor jokes.

You can drive your own vehicle are carefully as you like, and as defensively as you like, but you can not fully compensate for others' ignorance, stupidity or incompetence. The only way to avoid road accidents is not to use roads.

Sounds like....

[MojoRilla]

Rollerblading wheels. They have had flexible hubs for a while.

Re:Sounds like....

[random735]

you got a link? my rollerblade wheel hubs always seemed pretty solid to me... just hard plastic, basically.

at best,the tire part itself is kinda "soft" but not significantly so...which is why rollerblading on rough surfaces sucks so very very much

Re:Sounds like....

[myowntrueself]

"which is why rollerblading on rough surfaces sucks so very very much"

The worst part is a transition from smooth to rough surfaces; I was once skating down a nice, smooth road, going quite fast.

The road surface suddenly transitioned to very rough... ouch.

Thing is, your wheels lose forward speed really fast but your upper body is still going at quite a pace and catching up can involve your upper body suddenly descending to the road surface...

Re:Sounds like....

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I always dread just one wheel hitting a rough patch. On a particular route popular with beginners, I remember a pedestrian underpass where the rough underground part started at an angle sufficient to gently guide the fairly fast moving novice into the stuccoed wall. Fortunately, the road above wasn't much better (tending to gently guide novice drivers into the oncoming lane) so the tunnel got rebuilt.

Re:Sounds like....

[myowntrueself]

"I always dread just one wheel hitting a rough patch."

or one skate... so that one foot is suddenly going a lot faster than the other

:)

Re:Sounds like....

[cgenman]

The worst part is a transition from smooth to rough surfaces; I was once skating down a nice, smooth road, going quite fast.

The road surface suddenly transitioned to very rough... ouch.

Thing is, your wheels lose forward speed really fast but your upper body is still going at quite a pace and catching up can involve your upper body suddenly descending to the road surface...

Which is, convieniently enough, a very rough surface.

Re:Sounds like....

[Anonymous Coward]

You're still a cock.

Two words

[Dh2000]

Snow Crash

Re:Two words

[eomnimedia]

Two. Words.

Two more words: Off. Topic.

Sorry.

I beg to differ.

[Infinity Salad]

I didn't read the article and test as showing 'almost nothing good.'

While the concept has some obvious bugs to work out (vibration, suspension issues), they are nothing insurmountable and it seems to me that the tweel is a step in the right direction - more responsive handling, fewer parts and less end waste (i.e. rather than chucking the tweel away when it is worn down, you have it retreaded. This reduction in landfill waste alone makes it worth checking out).

I don't know about 'tweel' though. . .

Re:I beg to differ.

[DeathFlame]

Rubber tires are already used in asphalt for improved roads, so the rubber tire landfill issue is becoming non existant.

Re:I beg to differ.

[Infinity Salad]

As well as athletic fields and other creative recycling projects; however, I don't believe we are anywhere near 100% reuse (though I could be wrong).

There is also the argument that because you only need to replace the tread, fewer resources are consumed in the replacement process (an environmental boon on the other end of the product's life).

Re:I beg to differ.

[dgatwood]

And semi tires are already retreaded.

Re:I beg to differ.

[uujjj]

wrong, wrong, wrong. Rubberized asphalt uses only a modest fraction of all disposed tires.

Re:I beg to differ.

[Penguinshit]

There are also power-generation facilities that burn discarded tires to generate electricity.

Re:I beg to differ.

[DeathFlame]

Wrong wrong wrong. At least in the province of Alberta where I live. In fact the report I just read but the Tire Recycling Manufacturers Association said that they were worried that there wouldn't be ENOUGH used tires to fill the increasing demand for different scrap tire rubber products.

Now these uses are far more than rubberized asphalt, but that is only one example of the many products you can create with this.

Re:I beg to differ.

[fred fleenblat]

Retreads are economical, but they are also somewhat of a hazard.

It is very common for retreads to separate from the underlying tire and leave a 6 foot long piece of vulcanized rubber somewhere in the roadway. Worse, since it was molded into a circlar shape at some point, the retread doesn't want to lie flat on the road so pretty much the next car that comes along is going to get damaged.

Re:I beg to differ.

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite alot of the rubber is also burnt.... In coal powerplants. It's ground up, and mixed with the coal. Some of the steel precipitates and must be cleaned out, though. (most just gets burnt and sent out at iron oxide particles)

Re:I beg to differ.

[cnettel]

Don't forget SpaceShipOne (but I doubt it reuses disposed rubber).

I think I've seen this some where before....

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/wheels-i mage02.html ) is an example of government research going to a consumer product....

Think large....

Re:I think I've seen this some where before....

[Anonymous Coward]

see more tonight on Nova!!! 8pm

Re:I think I've seen this some where before....

[DigitalRaptor]

Yeah, as long as you're driving speed is only 30 feet per day.

It is nice to see NASA thinking out of the box, though. Those are pretty sweet tires.

Re:I think I've seen this some where before....

[danila]

I doubt that a division of French corporation would get a technology from NASA.

Re:I think I've seen this some where before....

[Anonymous Coward]

Weren't the Lunar Rover tyres made from spokes and mesh?

goodyear...

[Anonymous Coward]

is not re-inventing the wheel in service quality, they sck and their garantees sck

Re:goodyear...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a keyboard with a working "U", if you want to buy one, drop me a line at:-

ulu@ubuntu.co.uk

And I'll send you one.

Interesting if you RTFA

[razmaspaz]

No doubt this article submission will get bashed for not being about star wars; but this is a fairly interesting article, if you take the time to read it. I was particularly interested in the fact that this "tire" improves cornering while maintaining a smooth ride. No doubt all the NASCAR fans out there will be happy. While I am sure this is a long way off, it looks promising.

Re:Interesting if you RTFA

[nester]

considering that NASCAR still uses pushrods and carbs, i doubt it.

Re:Interesting if you RTFA

[geekd]

I'm not a NASCAR fan, but DO enjoy road racing (mostly F1).

I participate in SCCA Autocross, and my first reaction to the "tweel" is that to change my tires handling characteristics, now, instead of adding or removing air, I have to change the whole tire. all 4 of them, even.

However, "five times as much lateral stiffness as current pneumatic tires" would be sweet.

-geekd

Re:Interesting if you RTFA

[saunabad]

I was particularly interested in the fact that this "tire" improves cornering while maintaining a smooth ride. No doubt all the NASCAR fans out there will be happy.

And since when did NASCAR races actually have anything to do with cornering on those boring oval tracks? ;)

If you're so smart...

[Daxx_61]

...you tell us what colour it should be! (with apologies to Mr. Adams)

Re:If you're so smart...

[Baron_Yam]

Do you know if people want fire that can be fitted nasally?

Matters of importance

[TimboJones]

Almost everything else about the Tweel is undetermined at this early stage of development, including serious matters like cost and frivolous questions like the possibilities of chrome-plating.

Chrome-plating frivolous?! Forget cost -- don't you know that chrome makes it faster?

Re:Matters of importance

[Penguinshit]

But not nearly as fast as some cheap fiberglass skirting and a handful of pseudo-kanji stickers all over the car...

Re:Matters of importance

[Anonymous Coward]

No, if you're over 45 yrs old, Chrome lets you score that hot MILF in your country club pimp mobile.

yes, but...

[j0kkk3l]

Inventing the wheel is not easy:
Can you tell us what colour it should be?

Re:I'm interested in searching more about this but

[Anonymous Coward]

Works here. Hit http//www.google.com.au

Re:Wrong Direction? I think not.

[Donoho]

Sounds like an excellent motorcycle tire to me ^_^

Re:I'm interested in searching more about this but

[Truth_Quark]

that should have a colon: http://www.google.com.au/

the link

[dollargonzo]

woooah!! is it just me, or did someone finally get the smart idea to submit a reg-free link to a nytimes story??

</sarcasm>

Re:the link

[razmaspaz]

Actually, I think that was just you! Wierd, Huh?

Re:the link

[vurg]

Reg-required nytimes articles are so 2004.

btw - wheel patent

[frakir]

the wheel with rim and a hub and spokes between them is according to uspto someones intellectual property: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT O1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm &r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5707114.WKU.&OS=PN/5707114&RS=PN/ 5707114

DOJ object on grounds of terrorism potential

[Anonymous Coward]

Fleeing criminals would use these tires to roll unencumbered right over spike strips!

Re:DOJ object on grounds of terrorism potential

[Anonymous Coward]

It wouldn't be hard to modify the way tire spikes work. Basically, have lots of long chains parallel to the road, with the spikes having barbs on them. A car will roll over them, the spikes enter the tire but can't come back out. The chain will tangle itself around the wheel. It would probably cause a pretty violent loss of control, actually.

Re:DOJ object on grounds of terrorism potential

[Penguinshit]

Maybe, but future editions of the show "Cops" would be so much more exciting...

Re:DOJ object on grounds of terrorism potential

[afroborg]

This is an excellent idea!

If designed correctly, the chains could act like a chainsaw blade and remove the front guards from the vehicle. Possibly even the drivers legs!

Alternatly, the chains could be attached to the road so that they spear into the tire, wrap around it a few times and then go taut - tearing the entire wheel from the car or at least stopping it in a big hurry.

Perhaps dispense with the chains entirely. The barbs from the road spikes could be incendiary or maybe explosive. Yet another way to remove the wheels! This could be accompanied by a launch system in the central spikes that are between the left and right wheels. They could be launched up through the bottom of the vehicle - hopefully either into the sump, jamming the crankshaft, into the gearbox, jamming the drivetrain, or perhaps through the seat, nailing the criminal in place for an easy arrest. Add to that the incendiary effect and you've got a fairly powerful deterrent on your hands!

Come to think of it, we already have anti-tank mines that accomplish a similar thing...

Scary what comes out of my brain sometimes - especially when I need sleep.

It may not get punctures

[AC-x]

But is it actually much stronger?

The article doesn't mention what would happen if they did fail but if you drive over a large lump very fast will these spokes break and cause a nasty dent in the tire (resulting in a rather bumpy ride)?

Re:It may not get punctures

[uujjj]

I imagine the tweels can be made as strong as needed by adding reinforcement. The effect of broken spokes wouldn't be that different from blowing a conventional tire or wheel.

Muddy Road Anyone?

[Tekoneiric]

What happens when your driving in the rain and hit some mud, it fills up the spokes then hardens when it dries? This somewhat reminds me of the Mars rover's wheels but not in a spiral. At least NASA filled the spokes with a flexible sealant.

I had mud get on the inside of a tire rim once, talk about a bumpy ride.

Re:Muddy Road Anyone?

[DigitalRaptor]

You only see the spokes because it's a cutout to let you see the spokes. That isn't the real design. Without the cutout it would look just like a normal tire.

Re:Muddy Road Anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus H. Christ. How many nurses do you have to wipe the drool off your chin and change your diapers every day? You. Fucking. Moron.

Re:Muddy Road Anyone?

[Tekoneiric]

You try working a corporate help desk and see if you go brain dead at the end of the day. Besides I didn't see the word cutout anywhere in the webpage.

Are the nurses cute? ;)

Likely successor of the radial

[mOoZik]

If you took the time to RTFA, you would see that this is a brilliant idea. While "reinventing the wheel" may sound absurd, I think the engineers are up to something. Whether or not it will be adopted on a large scale is up for debate, but I could see this technology on mid to high-end cars, like Mercedes E class and above, Audi A6 and above, and so on. The initial cost would probably turn off most people from replacing their wheels and tires with the Tweel, but I could see some businesses adopting it, such as car rental and trucking companies, for whom a blown tire would be a major headache.

Spikebelt.

[DogsBollocks]

Well the police are really going to enjoy chasing someone who has this fitted to their vehicle.

It actually sounds pretty cool

[Silicon Knight]

With the Tweel's injection-molded spokes, those characteristics are no longer linked - a point of particular excitement to an engineer like Mr. Thompson because of the potential it holds for improving handling response. The spokes can be engineered to give the Tweel five times as much lateral stiffness as current pneumatic tires without any loss of ride comfort.

Obviously they're going to fix things like the open sidewall and the noise issues. Once they get the bugs worked out it should make for cars with higher performance and greater safety.

Too bad it will take forever to reach the consumer market.

Wait a minute

[Lord Kano]

I had a bicycle 26 years ago that had solid rubber tires that were permanently attached to the wheels.

These guys have seriously just reinvended the "Twheel".

LK

Re:Wait a minute

[Lord Kano]

I was born in the mid 70s, I'm not sure.

LK

cushy nerds

[Anonymous Coward]

I carry starting fluid with me in my jeep, so if I get a flat I can walk to the last place I saw some tires and kaboom a decent one on.

Lantern law

[Anonymous Coward]

"where it appears non-pneumatic tires are prohibited for speeds > 10mph."

That's not half as bad as the requirement that a person waving a lantern has to walk ten feet in front of the car to avoid spooking horses. They really need to change that law. The wife is getting tired of waving a lantern everytime we go out to dinner.

Re:Lantern law

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, ignorance of the law is no excuse -- In Washington:

"All motor vehicles must be preceded by a man carrying a red flag (daytime) or a red lantern (nighttime) fifty feet in front of said vehicle."

The ten feet you reference is both silly and dangerous. Please abid by the law and allow the fifty feet.

Re:Lantern law

[thhamm]

uh. and i thought in arkansas, the lantern waves your wife! er. whatever. :P

Re:Lantern law

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a nice law to have around when you're just SURE that guy with the "Grateful Dead" bumper sticker has an ounce in the glovebox, but you don't have probable cause.

What we really need to do is

[MrRuslan]

Use stone wheels and make the roads out of iflateable rubber that way no one gets a flat, just everyone at the same time.

Re:What we really need to do is

[2A]

yeah, that'ld also help out those of us who don't manage to "free our minds" before jumping from one tall building to another to impress some chick, good thinking.

Skateboards!! Was: Re:Bikes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember snowcrash?

This is great:

[mboverload]

This is a company who INNOVATES! We don't see this these days; companies sit on their old products and business models without feeling the need to invent new things. I believe this says allot about Michelin, and they have earned some respect from me today.

superhero dispair

[nmec]

This is absurd, how will secret agents be able to survive underwater for a few minutes whilst their arch-enemies check for survivors to a mysterious car crash?

Re:superhero dispair

[Doppler00]

It would probably be a really bad idea for a secret agent to do that trick now. Many tires are inflated with pure nitrogen. One breath of that, and you'll pass out from aphixiation.

Foam filled tires

[shockbeton]

I wish the article had also included a discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of foam-filled tires. Foam tires seem to be a very sensible approach to avoiding tire failure.

Re:Foam filled tires

[yuriismaster]

Mini-article you wanted: Advantages: Dirt cheap, Puncture-proof Disadvantges: Foam is very 'absorbent'. Imagine driving in the rain and having your tires suck up the water, only to have your car sink very quickly onto the ground. Foam is not very nice for holding mass up. You'd need some super-dense foam (getting rid of said 'Dirt Cheap' advantage) to even have a chance of holding the things up Foam is also flammable. A stray cigg can set your entire car on fire. Result: Tires should not be made of foam. Simple as that

Re:Foam filled tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Made from foam?
I think you misunderstand.
The heading states clearly - Foam FILLED tires.

Re:Foam filled tires

[Anonymous Coward]

Alright then, how about sea sponge? See? Renewable resource!!

Re:Foam filled tires

[Anonymous Coward]

and offcuts can go into the bath.

Important marketing point

[ShadyG]

I hope in their focus on the technical aspects of this project, the engineers aren't losing sight of a marketing point that could kill the whole thing for consumers:

The bonding process that holds together the 4 parts of the wheel assembly must be easily performed by any old mechanic who has equipment no more expensive than that currently used to mount tires on wheels.

Consumers want custom wheels for appearance. They want custom treads for varying levels of stickiness, control, and weather conditions. They will want custom properties on the spokes to control lateral and vertical stiffness. And they won't want to have to special order a whole new set just to change one of these factors.

At the very least, customers should have to go no farther than the nearest Michelin store, but it will sell much better if the corner gas station's shop has the necessary equipment.

Re:Important marketing point

[Anonymous Coward]

The article says that they can wait a while for it to become popular (ie: decades).

Just two words

[Falkentyne]

Johnson Pink

The iRobot PackBot has a similar wheel

[Animats]

The PackBot has had great success with a similar wheel. In that application, it's used as a sprocket for a track, but it's the same flexible-spoke concept. The PackBot is so rugged that normal usage is to throw it through a window into a building, then drive it around to see what's inside.

Airbus pushing the envelope on lots of tech, too

[PornMaster]

Airbus's new jumbo jet is causing amazing amounts of new tech, including things like developing landing gear that can hold the plane up and not punch right through the runway upon landing.

All kinds of materials sciences, too.

Re:Sheep tossing! Was: Re:Skateboards!

[Anonymous Coward]

wannabe

December

[Chuck Chunder]

Nail punctured one of my rear tyres.
6 months earlier I replaced one of the front tyres because of a nail in that.

Neal Stephenson reinvented the wheel!

[jerryasher]

Smart wheels use sonar, laser range finding and millimeter wave radar to identify mufflers and other debris. Each one consists of a hub with many tiny spokes. Each spoke telescopes into five sections. On the end is a squat foot, rubber tread on the bottom, swiveling on a ball joint. As the wheel rolls, the feet plant themselves one at a time, almost glomming into one continuous tire. If you surf over a bump, the spokes contract to roll over it. If you surf over a pothole, the rubber prongs probe its asphalt depths.

From Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson.
Published by Bantam in 1992

Wheel is Patented

[fishbowl]

Even if you reinvent it, you will be liable for royalties.

USPTO 5,707,114

Re:Wrong Direction? I think not.

[Onan]

Actually, I'm not sure how well that'd work. Most of the excitement here is that you can make lateral flexibility and vertical flexibility vary independently, to satisfy the goals of smooth ride, consistent traction, and good maneuverability.

Unfortunately, motorcyles don't have a consistent "lateral" and "vertical" orientation for their wheels. As soon as you turn sharply, you're sideways enough that these two axes are nearly reversed, and your tires end up doing exactly the wrong things.

Me Build Server

[pin0]

Me discover fire, Reinvent Wheel, Build server...

I get a flat tire every 2 to 3 trips ...

[Anonymous Coward]

on my bicycle.

I'd pay $500 a tire for bike tires which perform
as well as the existing ones, yet never go flat.

Bicycle tires and tube technology sucks hard from a reliability point of view.

Bibendum - the REAL story here

[PortWineBoy]

Much more important than the wheel is the fact that the Michelin Man has a name! Bibendum. Now THAT'S stuff that matters.

Not only that

[Chuck Chunder]

But from looking at the illustration in the article the tires sit in rectangular boxes! That's never going to roll!

Take heart, you aren't the only person this stupid!

Re:Not only that

[Anonymous Coward]

I read your comment twice as "That's never going to troll!"

Re:Not only that

[Anonymous Coward]

Behold:
http://roadandtrack.com/article.asp?secti on_id=20& article_id=1691&page_number=4&preview=

Quote:
The spokes, tuned for each vehicle application, are chemically bonded to the aluminum hub for life. With no sidewalls to speak of, the Tweel certainly looks bizarre, but remember, there's no need for this tire to hold air.

It was not a cutout.

Take heart. You weren't the only person this stupid.

Re:Wrong Direction? I think not.

[Donoho]

I mistook friction for traction :(

What format is used for pictures?

[rekrutacja]

My firefox refused to download plugin for viewing photos on patent office page. Do you know what kind of weird format that is?

Potential here

[Presence1]

The key here is the decoupling of the spring rate of the tire from the sidewall stiffness. That is HUGE and will give them all kinds of ability to dial in performance, ride, and other characteristics.

But there is a definite shortage of info in this article.

The statement '2-3x longer tread life than a radial' could be great, or it could be meaningless. Tread life is largely a function of tread compound, and a trade-off against grip level. They can make an extremely grippy tread that will only last for a few laps to qualify for a race, or a hard tread that will last 100K miles, but not both. Are they are actully projecting an ability to control the contact patch of this new wheel/tire so well that it wears less with the same compound, or are they merely planning to build it with a hard compound?

Another issue is the weight. Extra weight here is in the worst possible place for the car's performance -- rotating, unsprung, and far from the car's rotational center of mass. This wheel/tire looks heavier with the ribs under the tread. However, it could actually be lighter with polyethelene spokes, and lighter sidewalls that only have to keep out dirt, not react the loads. (Of course, I'm not sure how far I'd want to push the side loads on those poly spokes, but that's another story...). I'd have to conclude right now that it is heavier, or they'd promote that benefit too.

I think they're on to something interesting here. Is there any other info around on these issues?

Re:Potential here

[pipingguy]

...ability to dial in performance...

Car and Driver has been applying this overused term for control for so many years that it makes me want to puke with anger. Is it "dial-in" a la rotating something (aside from a steering wheel)?

Re:Potential here

[enbody]

From the article: "And so far, the Tweel is no lighter than the tire and wheel it replaces." That is not surprising for a prototype. If it is already close in weight (which is not claimed in the article), an optimist would expect development to reduce weight significantly.

Re:Potential here

[Presence1]

Yes, it says "no lighter", but it doesn't say how much heavier, if any. I'd ordinarily agree that the development process would make it lighter.

However, in this case, I'm not sure the poly spokes could be used in real production models, and they may have to revert to a metal construction. I'd expect the poly to be too flexible and not strong enough, but maybe they have some interesting tricks up their sleeve -- let's hope so!

Re:Potential here

[Issue9mm]

Not really. From my understanding of the common usage, dial-in performance is like an easily adjustable carburetor, or (even better) a PDA interface to a mod-chip, that lets you specify (on the fly) what performance settings to use.

My 3000GT has electronic wastegates on the turbos, meaning I can set them to open earlier or later than normal. If I set them to open earlier, it reduces the amount of gain the turbos give me, hence resulting in better gas mileage. However, if I want to have fun on the road, I rotate a dial (or press some buttons) and have them open later, giving me the opposite effect.

So basically, dial-in performance is anything that can be adjusted pre-race, or (even better) in-car to affect the natural operation of the car.

-9mm-

Re:Potential here

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they are actully projecting an ability to control the contact patch of this new wheel/tire so well that it wears less with the same compound

Possibly. One of the problems with pnuematic tires is that no one keeps them at the recommended inflation level. Most of the time people ignore their tires and you have a pressure much less than recommended. Even if you have an air pump in your home driveway that you fill the tires with everyday, when you get out on the highway, the air heats up and the pressure goes up.

This tweel eliminates this variable - it will always stay at the same "pressure", and probably can be constructed to minimize thermal effects. Sure, under lab conditions wear won't differ, but under real-world conditions with improperly inflated tires, tread life will likely go up.

Bad Slashdot article

[hackwrench]

they need to be hard to be durable,
Wrong, hardness makes things brittle...
soft for a smooth ride,
Um, that's what shock absorbers are for... grippy to grab the road,
Unless you are desinging things so lightweight that they blow away in normal wind conditions, you don't want the tire gripping the road
but smooth to reduce rolling resistance,
and you'd want that because? A tire's resistance agaist the road is what keeps friction foom slowing things down and also provides acceleration.
flexible to absorb shocks Again that's what shock absorbers are for. You do want it soft and flexible so that it remembers its shape after something hits it.

Re:Bad Slashdot article

[glassjaw rocks]

I love my preview button.

Trust me, watch which wheel you re-invent.

[has2k1]

I took a Java course in college and the first chapter in the Course Text was all about not re-inventing the wheel.
But when I got a program off the internet and handed it in for my assignment I was penalised heavily.

They would.. in time

[brunes69]

Just as every garage didn't instantly get equipment to handle radials in the 60s, or electronic engine testers in the 80s, they won't instantly get tire-rebonders in the 00s (is that what this decade is called?1?)

But they will over time... just like it originally cost hundreds of dollars and a huge machine to electronically test your engine, and now you can buy a $29.95 device to do it at home.

Re:They would.. in time

[Anonymous Coward]

>you can buy a $29.95 device to do it at home.

But if you want to know what the codes mean, you have to pay and surrender rights in order to receive the information.

Re:They would.. in time

[StressedEd]

00s (is that what this decade is called?1?)

I prefer "The Naughties". ;-)

A spikebelt could still stop them

[brunes69]

All they would have to do is create new spikebelts with curved, grabbing spikes, that *shred* the tire more than puncture it.

It doesn't matter what the wheel is ade of, it isn't going to perform too well if it isn't round and pieces of it are all over the road.

The last time....

[Smiffa2001]

...something had multiple partitions/divisions of internal space like this, it was declared unsinkable and then promptly sunk...

Seriously though, I reckon this has something going for it. We use 'cushion' tyres/tires in the forklift industry where a pneumatic tyre/tire would compress laterally too much and affect stability. Compact counterbalance (http://www.lansing.co.uk/) and articulated forklifts (http://www.bendi.co.uk/index2.htm) use 'cushion' as they have a cross-section rather like a sponge, with lots of air-bubbles - gives a decent ride on rough yard surfaces but when doing the important stuff indoors, doesnt compress and help topple the forklift...

Sorry, not new.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, boys, the Germans invented this first.

They had no rubber during WWII. So they created funny wheels made of steel and having coils/shock absorbers along the rays.

The principle was the same, but this new design relies on more modern materials.

I give up

[SuperBanana]

I think this (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/wheels-i mage02.html ) is an example of government research going to a consumer product....

I give up. Spinner rims?

Troll?

[bodrell]

If the article (and test) is accurate, almost nothing's good about this Tweel

I'm replying because I don't know if I should classify "didn't read the article" as Troll or Flamebait. Maybe both? If you did read the article, you seem to have missed the point. Have you ever had a blowout on a busy freeway? Not fun. Not safe. Eliminating blowouts is a very big deal in terms of public safety, and the tests mentioned in the article are still in the research phase.

The other big deal is handling. For a prototype wheel to have such an impact on handling is impressive to me. But maybe you're just hard to impress.

If lobbysts have their way, a new noise-reduction pad and better suspension will be "invented" so that problems like noise and feel of a coarse road surface (introduced by this Tweel) can be eliminated.

What lobbyists are you talking about? These tires are made by Michelin, so any "inventions" like noise-reducing pads would be necessary to get anyone to even consider using them. When we are all required to use Michelin Tweels (TM) then your comment will be relevant.

We can start by...

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

...dismissing the prejudice we have towards round wheels. What's wrong with triangular wheels I ask?

(Incidentally, if you're in the SF Bay Area you can play with triangular rollers at the Exploratorium. Amazingly they give a nice smooth ride.)

Re:We can start by...

[ross.w]

What's wrong is, that the centre of rotation and the centre of mass are not the same, which means that at speed the whole thing shakes itself to bits from the vibration.

This is why roller bearings rather than ball bearings are used for high speed applications. Rollers can be made perfectly cylindrical, but to grind a perfect sphere you need a zero-G environment.

The balls in the ball bearings are therefore not perfectly spherical and there is a shift in the centre of mass that causes vibration. Roller bearings avoid this problem.

How 'bout "missed reference?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart wheels in Snowcrash were solid wheels that would dynamically change shape.

-g

Ways around flats on motorcycles

[tbuskey]

There are a number of solutions in off road motorcycle racing.

Mousse- a solid foam thing that gets *wedged* inside tire. Made by michelin and has problems with overheating and wear at high speeds.

Tire balls - someone experimented w/ tennis balls instead of a tube. Now they have balls custom made for the purpose. If one goes poof, you have several others. I'd imagine high speeds would be a problem, but this is offroad.

Tire slim - pour it into the tube before inflating & it'll seal small punctures.

Re:Wrong Direction? I think not.

[Resident Netizen]

Unfortunately, motorcyles don't have a consistent "lateral" and "vertical" orientation for their wheels. As soon as you turn sharply, you're sideways enough that these two axes are nearly reversed, and your tires end up doing exactly the wrong things.

But motorcycle tire loading is consistently 'vertical' to the bike as it leans. Side loading seems to be a non-issue, except for trikes and side-car rigs.

Proof of concept

[alexo]

> It's like somebody created an OS, but it's full of security holes, fear not, we can always create software like firewall and anti-virus to solve those problems.

No, it's like somebody created a horseless carriage but it was slow and heavy and noisy and had barely enough power to haul its fuel and tended to malfunction almost constantly.

Would you rather use a horse today?

Or maybe it's like somebody created an electric lamp but its life was less than 50 hours and supplying it with DC current was a real PITA.

Would you rather use gas lamps today?

Or maybe it's like somebody invented a digital computer but it consisted of 30 units, weighed over 30 tons, consumed 200KW and had a memory capacity of 20 10-digit numbers.

Would you rather play HL2 on a slide rule?

That wierdo tiff format baby! (nt)

[Anonymous Coward]

abcdefghi ifjoiwef j oiwejfo owiefjow jow f

Why?

[gone.fishing]

Maybe I'm just getting old and crochety but why do we want to reinvent the wheel? It seems to me that the current technology is more than adequate and has advantages that the tweel will never match. First, I can buy wheels, and tires that meet my needs and offer combinations of style, price, and performance that would take many, many different stock numbers of tweels to even approximate! Second, the modest tire is a proven comfortable technology. Frankly, it would be hard to sell me on something else.

I drive a 4X4 with what I would describe as very modest tires that carry a 60,000 mile rating! They cost less than $150/tire installed and they are running on "alloy wheels" which came from the factory. For less than $600 I can replace them and run them for another 60,000 miles which equates to almost four years of my daily use! That is a negligible cost when you think about it.

My tires perform just fine on dry pavement, dirt roads, snow-covered roads and even on wet roadways. Hell, I don't hardly think of them which when you think about it, is about the best compliment that you can pay tires.

My tire dealer gives me free rotation of the tires and it does them good too because I always get an oil change and safety check when I come in for a rotation. So, to me, in essence my current tires are all but maintence free.

This has been my experience for years and years. Tires have become that good. Why would you want to give up this kind of reliability? I can't think of one good reason.

Re:Why?

[Cederic]

I don't drive the way you do. I get through brand new good quality tires in six months.

That may be because I accelerate/brake harder, because of road conditions here, because I don't keep them at the correct pressure, or because I have lots of fun going round the bends on the backroads where I live in four-wheel slides.

Something that gives me better lateral control with increased life is definitely of interest. If it avoids flat tires (one reason I need new tires so often) then so much the better!

~Cederic

perpetual motion

[rkayakr]

You can admire Michelin for always pushing new products, but there are some inherent problems with this approach. The article mentions the rough ride. This is not a something that can be easily refined away. The reason that people use pnuematic structures for tires is their unique ability to envelope obstructions while still supporting load. This yields a smooth ride that a structural tire can't match.
Whether it's made of metal, polymer, fiberglass or foam you have the same problem. If its stiff enough to support the load it transmits every little road irregularity to the car.
It's like I showed you a perpetual motion machine that doesn't quite break even in energy, but promised that with refinement it would.

Designed for throw-a-way car market

[PyrotekNX]

In the not too far future, cars will basically be designed like a cheap printer. When it breaks you will just throw it away and buy a new one.

The cars will be made out of mostly composites and plastics. This means that you will need to hire a specialist to do even the most minor repairs.

Every aspect of the car will be electronically controlled and monitored and you will need special equipment to even begin troubleshooting the numerous electrical problems that will crop up. There will be so many electronic controls that if there is an electrical problem; basically it's non-repairable.

Many car manufacturers are planning on sealing up the engine compartment and the engine itself. New super-lubricants are developed to last the 'life' of the car. (Previously on Slashdot)

The Tweel fits into the same category. The major gripes of it are that it incorporates the tire, rim, and hub all into 1 package. When something like this goes mainstream, forget about custom wheels. Right now there is a big market and all sorts of different tires available for the consumer. If there is a specialized product like the tweel, then it would basically be a monopoly.
The pneumatic tire has been around for 100 years and it has been constantly improved for the entire time. There is very little growing room for the tweel.

Current models are heavier than a standard wheel. This increases the rolling mass which makes it harder to accelerate and stop. They will eventually get old and with all the stress they are likely to fail and collapse. Plastics become brittle with age and with all the stress they would be taking will cause them to fail and cause a nasty accident.

The new marketing strategy of the throw-a-way car will claim it's safer and more fuel efficient because of the weight savings. It will eventually lead to having to recycle your car about every 10 years.

Re:Designed for throw-a-way car market

[geekoid]

"... basically it's non-repairable."

yes, becasue electronics is da to difficult to fix..daaa..
please.

"Many car manufacturers are planning on sealing up the engine compartment and the engine itself. New super-lubricants are developed to last the 'life' of the car. (Previously on Slashdot)"

they could never do that literaly, they would get sued. a lot.

"There is very little growing room for the tweel."
which is what will stall it, if not kill it.
How are other tire manufactureres supposed to come up with an alternative if they can't improved it in some way?
I also disagree that there is little room for improvement. I can think of 3 inprovements off the top of my head.

Re:Designed for throw-a-way car market

[Anonymous Coward]

There is very little growing room for the tweel.

I don't think so. My first reaction was where can I get one of these. I am paranoid about flat tires, and losing air pressure. Because I've experienced those problems and it can be terribly inconvenient.

But anyways, the majority of people do not mod their cars and put on custom rims etc. All things being equal to regular tires, that one thing I think would be enough to have these selling like hot cakes.

But I think my next car is going to be a mountain bike that's human powered.

Re:Designed for throw-a-way car market

[Cederic]

>> It will eventually lead to having to recycle your car about every 10 years.

We're already mostly there in the UK.

I have a car first registered in 1994. To get through its MOT (annual Gov't safety check) will cost me approx. $3k, due to the oil leak, the ABS brakes being broken, the suspension needing replacing, and a few other things.

If I have all that work done, the car will be worth approx. $800.

Financially it just does not make sense to repair that car. I'm better off trading it in for $200 and buying another car - I can get an equivalent model that's 5-6 years old for not much more than $3k. And that'll last me for a few years more.

(I'm actually spending nearer $19k and buying a very very nice car that's 3 years old, but that was a matter of personal preference).

~Cederic

Re:Designed for throw-a-way car market

[Vegeta99]

The MOT is German, correct?

In any case, that's more a problem of too much government interference than a car being ready to be trashed at 6 years. ABS out? Not a safety issue. When the antilock braking system fails, you still have full use of your brakes, but they can now lock up. Oil leak? Once again, not a safety issue. Environmental, sure, but there are worse things than leaking an few ounces of oil onto the pavement (which is, surprise, made of oil and rocks). Suspension? Depending on what part of the system, it could just mean a rough ride. Either way, it shouldn't be costing you that much! On my car (a 1998 Mazda 626 ES-V6, with 300,000 miles [482,803 km for you metric whiners], a japanese designed but american built car), ABS system replacement would run about $500. New struts all around would run about $350. I do have an oil leak, at the oil pan, and I plan to fix it myself, and it would only take a garage an hour or two to fix, plus the cost of the gasket, so not much over $75. If that quote is from a dealer, then that's your first problem. Independent mechanics are much cheaper, usually quicker to finish the job, and most of the time, they really need your business! They might not have a clean cut, greaseless secretary to take your keys, but they're always more than willing to take you in the shop and quite literally show you exactly what is wrong. If you walk in with an idea of what is wrong, you can drive out with a cheap fix and more knowledge about the problem then you ever needed :P

Re:Designed for throw-a-way car market

[Cederic]

MOT = Ministry of Transport in the UK. So an MOT test is one done under their auspices.

ABS not working doesn't prevent operation of normal brakes, which is why I'm still driving around happily. It does however leave a warning light on the dashboard - instant MOT failure.

ABS replacement system is nearer £500, including fitting here in the UK. So nearer $900.

My car (Citroen Xantia) has hydraulic silly suspension. Assume approx $1000-1500 to get it replaced - again, including labour. Again, warning lights on the dashboard (in fact, two, one of which is a full three inches by one inch in size and says STOP in the middle). Obviously if I didn't think the suspension could keep the car stable and steady I wouldn't be driving it; the MOT test doesn't attempt such judgements.

Oil leak looks like the cylinder head gasket. That's going to be $1100-1600 to get sorted. You may be right, that might not cause MOT failure; I'm not sure. It is however something I'd want fixing if I intended to keep the vehicle.

There are other issues with the car too (it'll need new brake pads, maybe disks for the MOT, new tyres on the front, who knows what random other faults) none of which will be cheap.

So yeah, it's blinking expensive to fix if you lack the skill/desire to do it yourself. And yes, those quotes are from an independent mechanic.

As for the MOT being excessive Gov't interference: I like that the Government are forcing people to keep their vehicles in a roadworthy condition - otherwise there'd be idiots driving around in cars that leak oil all over the place, that can't stop safely, that have no grip on their types, whose suspension is liable to collapse at high speed. Not to mention the other things that are checked (working lights, chassis properly welded and not rusted through, wheels attached to car, etc).

~Cederic

Re:Designed for throw-a-way car market

[Vegeta99]

Ouch.

Yeah, time to ditch the car. Remember, I'm from the land of carburetors and big blocks. In Pennsylvania, my emissions test is to simply check that the EGR valve and catalytic coverters are in place, and that the gas cap doesn't leak. In other counties, and in other states, the test can be more stringent - but an ABS light wouldn't fail you. Here in PA, we have safety inspections also, so there aren't people driving around with bald tires and no brakes, but not all states have these.

And yeah, a leaky headgasket could well cause oil losses, but you'd also have a smoky exhaust, or a very cloudy one. You'd also have coolant that bubbles in the overflow tank or be losing excessive amounts of it. 1100-1600 pounds sounds about right for that kind of repair. I don't think you can use this as a sign of disposable cars, however - even crap American cars (eg: Chevy Cavalier, Ford Tempo, stuff of that nature) these days are rather reliable.

Trust me, I feel your pain when it comes to having to make your car ready for inspection - it's a pain in the ass, but it's one of those good pains in the ass.

A First Step

[Funkeriffic Toad]

...towards "Smart Wheels" a la Neal Stephenson. And there ain't nothing wrong with that.

Just the same two words

[SleepyShamus]

Pink Johnson!

The criminals tire!

[HearWa]

"The Tweel offers a number of benefits beyond the obvious attraction of being impervious to nails in the road."

Read: The Tweel offers a number of benefits beyond the obvious attraction of being impervious to gunshots and nail beds.

Looks like the police may have to re-think their tactics if this tire becomes popular. :)

Re:The criminals tire!

[geekoid]

hmm, I just figured out how they could deal with this.
Anybody want toinvest in my idea?
25,000 dollars buys you 20%

psssst

[geekoid]

use bigger brake pads...

"And the cost of the tires will always probably remain higher,"

And computer will always be too expensive for the common man.

Re:Wrong Direction? Weight

[stephenisu]

While the twheel probably weighs a small amount more than a tire/wheel configuration.. I give you this. Up until very recently MOST cars had steel rims, now they are moving towards aluminum. The difference in weight between an aluminum and steel wheel is quite bit more than what will likely be lost due to the rubber fins. Also due to the construction of the twheel, it will be easier to make a forged spoked wheel as oppossed to the pressure cast ones used in most consumer cars. This will HELP to correct the small gain in weight. There are tons of things manufacturers can due to drop unsprung weight that they do not do in non-exotic cars. things like aluminum rotor hubs, lighter suspension components... etc. The only people feeling the weight issue are exotic owners and racing circuts.

Good reason to Sunset all laws.

[NotQuiteReal]

I think it would be a good practice for all laws to have a Sunset clause in them.

It will clear the books of nonsense like this which serve no purpose, but could be used against someone who doesn't have the correct political affiliation du jour.

If nothing else, it would at least keep legislatures out of trouble, making up new nonsense/bad laws [*cough* DMCA *cough*] for as long as it takes them to keep renewing obviously useful laws.

Of course this would only work if they had to deal with laws one at a time - otherwise it would just evolve into the usual crap - "omnibus law renewal act of 2005" - with all the old junk still in there, plus other nasties buried in the fine print.

Oh well.

this is coming from bikerguy

[bikerguy99]

OK, I admit it - I am crazy about cycling... Now, if you accept that, you'll be able to hear me out - we are as yet to find the best tire out there - the one that will do everything right - corner, hold, being light weight, durable, free from flats, sexy (there I said it). It is being said that cyclists are the trendiest of all - that's true - nowhere else a minimal gain in performance could lead to a win... Tour de France 2003 - over 2300 miles raced - won by seconds... Yes, we need better rubber!!!

Use on cars not logical!

[Shadowlore]

Logical uses - military vehicles, for example - would come years before automobiles

So, logical uses first, then use it on automobiles. So I guess using it on automobiles is not logical? ;)

Wheels (axles really) in nature - why not?

[seanadams.com]

I'm surprised how few wheels exist in nature. Sure we've got lots of stuff that moves in orbits - electrons, planets, etc, and stuff that rolls (rocks, roly polys, and very small rocks) but there's not much in the way of wheels-attached-to-axles, which humans have found so useful for getting around and moving things.

Why not? Sure it's hard to make because living things usually need to be connected within themselves by nerves, tissue, vessels etc but why didn't nature find a way until man came along? Certainly I don't mean to exclude man's creations as "natural"... what I mean by "natural" is "aside from what people figured out how to make".

Anyone got examples? Am I overlooking some obvious ones?

Re:Wheels (axles really) in nature - why not?

[cavemanf16]

Sure it's hard to make because living things usually need to be connected within themselves by nerves, tissue, vessels etc

-emphasis mine-

This makes me think of an interesting sidenote: Nature doesn't "make" itself. It may evolve - that question is up for interpretation as I'm sure I'll start a flamewar here - but it doesn't creatively take disparate systems, combine them, and come up with something better than before. Natural evolution of a species (or an ecosystem, or a star, or a galaxy) may improve upon an existing design, that I can agree with, or even adapt an existing system to cope with changes to the environment. But I'm not sure I've ever seen, heard, or read about a natural system 'creating' something completely new that actively seeks to fundamentally change the existing system. That's something I think only us humans and God have the capability of doing. Notice I'm not arguing for/against Creationism here. I'm merely pointing out the realization that us humans (and God) have a fundamentally different capability than the rest of "nature": creativity and the ability to combine complete seperate 'stuff' to form some new 'stuff.'

I would love to hear any rebuttals to my ideas though. I know this is way-offtopic, but it's in this thread that my mind suddenly started thinkining all this crap.

Re:Wheels (axles really) in nature - why not?

[default luser]

The wheel doesn't occur in nature becuase it is optimal in narrow uses, rather than flexible in all fields of use.

Ever try wheeling yourself around on rocky or broken terrain? How about swampland? Dry wind-blown sand is also not too nice for most wheels.

Legs can traverse all these types of terrain. They're less efficient, but the flexibility is worth it. Consider this: we only created roads once the wheel became popular.

Tubeless mountain bike tires

[Wynken de Word]

Tubeless mountain bike tires---and their special rim counter parts---have been around for years now. And not just fancy prototypes or obscure brands, but full-fledged consumer-ready tires and wheels for the casual rider to the cross country racing champ.

Note, however, they're not airless. They have the same profile as regular tube tires, but the air is pressurized between the tire casing and the rim (much like regular car tires). It means the tire can have better casing (less flats), with no tube there are no pinch flats, and less rotating weight (better handling) and better rolling in general (they are noticably faster). But you're pretty screwed if you flat in a race because they have to sit on the rim very tight to hold pressure, thus very hard to remove/install.

Michelin has been making a popular model since 2000. They were even used by Miguel Martinez (winner) at the 2000 Olympics.

Re:Tubeless mountain bike tires

[gotpaint32]

Tubeless tires (sewup or whatnot) that you are talking about are nearly identical to current automobile tires in that there is no innertube to hold the air in and rely on pressure to seal the casing against the rim.

Airless tires have been around for quite a while for bicycles. These tires are mostly filled with urethane. And like the car tirein review, it suffers from pretty miserable rolling resistance issues as well as weight problems to say the least. Development in airless tires have shown quite some improvement over solid rubber tire, however I don't think they will be getting rid of the pneumatic tire anytime soon (~20 years).

Poly's not a good idea for wheel material

[renuk007]

Polyethylene (the high-density, molecule-aligned kind) has very good tensile strength, but is not good as hub-spoke material. Something like a newer variant of ABS (Acrolein-Butadiene-Styrene) is needed for stiffness. How about poylycarbonate + mylar spokes shaped like turbine blades? The curve would give better stiffness without more weight, cut out some vibration.

How about... Not off topic?

[madaxe42]

Rememer the wheels on YT's board and Hiro's bike? Telescopic radial spokes with rubber pads on the ends, terrain digitally mapped in advance by computer?

Before you grind someone into the ground, at least know wtf you're talking about.

Er.... totally false

[brunes69]

All of those devices come with listings of the codes and what they mean. I myself own two of them, one for Ford and one for GM. I got them two years ago so some codes may be out of date, but really paying another $30 to upgrade the unit is in no way cost prohibitive.

And in another /. article ...

[Dark$ide]

• We'll discover that Swan (not Edison) invented the light bulb.
• Ready sliced bread is available to all.
• Crisps (:ukus Potato Chips) come ready salted

Re:Wheels? New Mousetraps...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are new mousetraps out there. You have to look harder. http://www.newpath4.com/societyalsurvivalultimatee ngineisnotcombustionenginenotgasolinenginenotdiese lengineandefinitelynotpropulsionenginesplusstoppin gicbmsandasteroids.htm#ultimateengineisinheavenacc ordingtoezekielvision_canweuseitasapaternistheulti matequestion and then there's also: http://www.newpath4.com/icyhot7.htm. But these solutions are currently being rather ridiculed so you'll probably want to keep your distance so you don't get it too....

But, Tweel it run as good as a wheel?

[asliarun]

or will it simply be re-tired in the annals of history?

i wonder.

Patent=Limited Market

[sfsp]

This would be nothing new for Michelin: the radial tire it invented in 1946 was not widely accepted in the United States until the 1970's.

...after the patent expired.

I remember seeing the same concept used for one of the mini-spares about 15 years ago. It will probably take 5 years more development to create a Tweel with the same characteristics of the good ol' pneumatic tire, and then 21 years for the patent to expire. After the patent has expired, everyone will start making them, and within 5 more years they will capture the automobile market.

I predict the end of the automobile pneumatic tire by 2036. Not much before.

But...

[teknokracy]

Does it come with 21" spinners?