US Government May Not Approve Sale of IBM PC Unit

andy1307 writes "Xinhua, among others, quotes a Bloomberg report saying the Committee on Foreign Investments in the United States, or CFIUS, might block the sale of IBM's PC unit to Lenovo over national security concerns. CFIUS is made up of 11 U.S. agencies, including the Department of Justice, the Department of Homeland Security, and is chaired by the Treasury Department. They are concerned Lenovo employees might be used to conduct industrial espionage. The Bloomberg story said members of CFIUS were focusing their attention on an IBM facility in North Carolina of the United States. The same article says IBM hasn't produced its own PCs for several years and that the bulk of its production is done by manufacturing partners, largely in China. In the past, CFIUS has blocked the sale of Global crossing to Hutchison Whampoa because it would have meant Chinese control of the undersea cable communication network."

Comments

Business ought to be left alone

[Dancin_Santa]

There is very little good that come out of government meddling in the affairs of private companies when no one is being harmed. IBM wants to sell, Lenovo wants to buy. No harm, no foul.

The Chinese are not the Red Menace they are made out to be. If anything, they are about as far from Red as you can get. More a yellowish-tan... But they are capitalists through and through.

It's funny, the land of freedom and capitalism is taking steps that would make a communist plutocracy proud.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[vladd_rom]

>> IBM wants to sell, Lenovo wants to buy. No harm, no foul.

There is no connection between the first sentence and the second. In order to determine if there is any harm or not, a lot of factors need to be considered, mainly related to whether or not a company will increase what economists call "market power" and will get closer to a monopol status.

>> It's funny, the land of freedom and capitalism is taking steps that would make a communist plutocracy proud.

There is such a term in economy called "market power", which describes companies that have key resources and strategic positions on the market. In those cases, the "invisible hand" of offer and demand, that balances prices on the market, no longer works, because a firm is clearly advantaged compared to the others and in a position to get a monopoly status (Does Microsoft ring any bells? :) ). In those cases, the government is expected and does regulate economic activity in order to re-balance the market.

I'm not saying that this is the case here; however, simply adjusting the balance doesn't mark this approach as communist. Depending on your position on the political spectrum, you might find this implication of government into the market more or less suitable. Still, no matter that, it is still far away from communist.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[B747SP]

There is very little good that come out of government meddling in the affairs of private companies when no one is being harmed

You're exactly right, when no-one is being harmed! There's a very good reason for the gummint to meddle in this affair though: national security. You guys (ie: America) have a lot of tight restrictions on export of technology to try to keep a lid on The Bad Guys(tm) advancing their technology too quickly and becoming more of a military threat than they might otherwise be.

Now I'll admit that it only takes a bit of industrial espionage to take the lid off a lot of secrets, but that doesn't mean you should hand the blueprints for everything over, no questions asked.

I, for one, would be a damn sight happier if y'all would stop pissing about with nail files in carry-on luggage and concentrate on stuff, like this, that actuallymatters.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[AvidLinuxUser]

Oh, they (government) really stopped Microsoft.

More likly Microsoft reads slashdot too and is worry about IBM having more power in the linux market in China so Bill called his friends in the White house and Justice department.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[DNS-and-BIND]

Nah, the Chinese didn't grease the right people. These big government deals are all about graft, and who gets it. In the Jiang Zemin/Clinton era, times were happy...the Chinese paid, and the U.S. responded with whatever they wanted...satellite technology, nuclear secrets, influence in elections. However, the new administration of Hu Jintao evidently forgot to pay off the right people, and now the whole deal is in jeopardy. Play ball, people!

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[eclectro]

The Chinese are not the Red Menace they are made out to be.

Yes, until they decide to get mad at Taiwan and invade. And because they now have many of our tech resources and capabilities, they could slap us down one way or another if we decide to take the wrong side. Like saying they won't hold anymore of our debt, which could lead to our dollar spiraling downward and worth less than a peso.

Not to mention all of the human rights issues that China has (or lack thereof more specifically). They should never have gotten Most Favored Nation (MFN) status because of this.

Make no mistake, the Red Menace could prove to be alive and well someday.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[shanen]

Actually, now that you mention it, my recollection is that IBM doesn't donate any money to political parties. I can imagine how that might bother certain politicians...

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[MarkSyms]

IBM has the ultimate end-game anyway. If the US gov blocks the sale then IBM is better off just closing the devision and laying off all the staff. Given that they have been losing a billion dollars a year on that division for a number of years.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[dunkelfalke]

well, usa has been the only country getting mad at others and invade in the last years.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[mark]

Human Rights record?? Can you say "guantanamo bay"?

I didn't think so.

Of course, at least the people held in guantanamo bay - against their will and without any legal proof of wrongdoing - are still alive. Unlike the (conservative, peer-reviewed estimate of) 100,000 dead people caused directly by the invasion of iraq - the vast majority of whom had done nothing wrong.

You Americans and your blatant hypocrisy make me want to puke.

The biggest menace in the world at the moment is not just red; it's red, white and blue.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[cheekyboy]

CHina buys $500billion + in US T bills which really prevents USA from going bonkers bankcrupt, so they are damn well helping out well, so whats the deal? That USA is stuck in a stale mate?

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Ricwot]

Depends on how recent, not so long ago we had the Falkland wars between Britain and Argentina, China and Tibet wasn't that long ago, but looking at the differences between America and Britain, and China, America and Britain were aggrevated, whereas Tibet was a peaceful non threatening country, and we must also not forget that the war on terror was offered support (which was refused) by Nato, which means that most of the world's democratic power was behind it.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Grrrrr, I really hope you're trolling but I'll bite.

The moderators must be smoking crack - insightful indeed? Closer to the mark is insanly paranoid and raving mad about a insubstantial red menace... Oh, your from the USA, I guess that's been drilled into you from birth so you can be excused a little. Fortunatley many Americans are able to draw their own conclusions rather than spouting the nonesense they've been force fed - take a look some of them post on slashdot.

When the USA instigates illegal foreign wars of occupation isn't it YOUR govenrment that needs to be slapped down?

Human rights? So the USA has such a good history of this, signed up to the Geneva convention - oh, what's that it's not - and infact in contravention of it in practice in many places - Guantanimo is an illegal ethical and moral disgrace for example, let alone what's been going on in Abu Grade and other places where it seems there is/was an institutionalised systematic policy of abuse.

How about this for a chiller - the USA tops the world for child prostitution. Yup, nice wholesome christians that you are, is Bush going to try and impose those values on the rest of the world too - along with his current agenda of promoting short term greed over protecting the environment for future generations?

Why is it also that the USA effectivley has more votes in institutions like the WTO and the IMF than everyone else put together. Is it right that the richest people in the world get to dictate global finances, which they always do in their favour. I thought the WTO and IMF were there to help developing nations, not as a way for the USA/G8 to rip them off. This is an example of that - "You must accept our free market conditions on your own economies, but we'll do whatever we like".

The reason that the dollar is spiraling downward has nothing to do with the rest of the world or China (which infact is still helping to prop up the dollar through trade - probably why they've got MFN, you can trade with them and profit lots from the cheapness of those human rights abuses), the fault lies entirley with the USA administration. It's the one that's running your economy down the toilet, but then Bush's out of office in another 4 years so he's squeezing for every last drop he and his friends can make. Perhaps you should sort out your trade deficit and borrowning so you wouldn't have to foist debt off onto developing nations by selling them your currency.

The other reasons the dollar is dying is simple, there is now a sensible alternative, the Euro and so people have a choice - good it's a free market :-)

The USA isn't well liked in the world because of it's terrible foreign policies and as the USA has used the dollar as a way to impose unfair trading and debts on other countries is it any wonder that places are now sending them back and saying no thanks, we'll give the Euro a go. Isn't that what Iraq did shortly before being invaded. Other places that did that - Iran and North Korea - where is top of the impending invasion list? So what do you have to do to be a member of the axis of evil? That's also why the USA administration hates the French so much - it's been mostly their diplomacy that affected these changes to monatary policy.

I could go on and on and on but you get the picture - wake up, stop looking at the world thru Bush tinted goggles and take an objective view and I think you'd be suprised at what is really going on in the world.

Make no mistake, the Stars and Stripes meanace is alive and well today and something needs to be done ASAP.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[dunkelfalke]

two wrongs don't make a right.

(but three lefts do, according to someone's signature)

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[gunnk]

I have a ThinkPad T41 on my desk right now. I flipped it over and found:

"Made in China"

Whether or not IBM sells its PC business to Lenovo, the technical information is already in China as is the actual manufacturing. So if our "national security" concerns are about the transfer of technical knowledge then it's too little-too late. If the concern is about having our important technology manufactured by a potential adversary, then it is also too little-too late.

This looks more like meddling for the sake of flag-waving to me...

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Chemicalscum]

Yeah ! your too damn right - the U.S. better play ball or China destroys the US dollar. Dubya better not hold a grudge becuase China paid of Bill but not him and refused to support his lunatic Iraq adventure.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[quarkscat]

What a hoot!

Try selling that line of cow huey to the Nepalese,
the Tibetans, or the Taiwanese (, or before that,
to the Vietnamese, or before that to the Indians).

Today's PRC does maintain a low profile when it
comes to international aggression, if only to
placate and numb people like you. The Maoist
"insurrection" in Nepal has been attributed to
"home-grown rebels" in most of the press, because
the interests of the multi-national corporations
are at risk. The PRC does make use of proxies
in their international aggression -- North Korea
comes to mind. Their underlying foreign policy
would appear to be "create turmoil and upset
the balance of power, because out of this strife
comes new opportunities". Nuclear and missile
technology proliferation has done wonders for
their interests in South Asia and the Middle East.

When the USA abruptly cancelled the creation of
a PRC/HK-owned seaport in Long Branch, CA, one
angry PRC general stood before the Politburo
and threatened to nuke Los Angeles. Of course,
this didn't make it into most of the world's
news channels because of overriding financial
interests (trade and emerging markets).

I would recommend that you do a bit more back-
ground reading on the PRC and what shennanigans
they have been up to before making too many
quick judgement calls. Try investigating, for
example, the seaports that PRC/HK have built
to control the Panama Canal. There is power
in knowledge, and the PRC is not just a big
fluffy panda ...

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[bob670]

I wish I had mod points because you sir, hit the nail on the head. The last thing MS wants is an IBM unfettered with no direct accountability to MS. As long as MS can flog IBM with OEM pricing policies they are Bill's bitch!

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[miu]

Mothers of 5 year olds know the correct answer to this: "you ignore the civil rights abuses of those other countries and work on your own".

It really irritates me when people try to pretend like the Chinese, Libyans, Syrians, etc are suddenly beyond reproach because the US has committed some actions like theirs.

So yes, the US has human rights violations and yes, the US has invaded a sovereign nation for a lie. But that does not remove the stain of such actions on any other nation that has committed them. The recent actions of the US do not change the fact that China has a recent history of civil rights abuses and unjust wars.

When all is said and done there remain pragmatic reasons for the US to distrust China. No "yellow peril/red menace", just a nascent world power with massive natural resources, a highly regimented social order, anger over victimization during colonialism, and a population that is 1/6 the entire world.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Lonewolf666]

they could slap us down one way or another if we decide to take the wrong side. Like saying they won't hold anymore of our debt, which could lead to our dollar spiraling downward and worth less than a peso.
They might do that anyway if they don't trust in the ability of the US to repay the debt any more. And it would not even take a violation of contracts or international right:
Declining to invest more money in the US is all it takes. Actually, blocking the Lenovo deal is a step in that direction taken by the USA.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Im not sure what you are trying to say. The first thing you say, if I read it correctly, is something I agree with, which doesnt follow with the rest of your post. Shouldnt we worry about our own human rights violations first? What sort of moral high ground do we have to tell other countries not to abuse their citizens when we are abusing other countries' citizens?

We of course have the right to say anything we want, but why would other countries who perceive the hypocrisy listen to us? This is why we need to get our own house in order first before we have any sort of moral authority.

That is the biggest problem I have with what the current administration is doing. Yes, attacking another country under false pretenses is bad, and yes deficits are bad, etc. but the worst thing that is happening is we are steadily losing our moral, financial, diplomatic authority over the world. Countries loving/hating us is nothing new, but what is new is the steady erosion of respect they have for who we are and what we are doing.

As the Chinese economy keeps growing in double digits and our dollar keeps sinking and debt keeps rising, we become increasingly irrelevant as a world power. But hey, as long as we keep gays from marrying and evolution from our schools I guess everything will be hunky dory.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[miu]

My post intentionaly ignores moral authority, hypocrisiy, and the US telling other nations what to do.

The point of my post is that every time *anyone* (even some random Joe on slashdot) criticizes China as dangerous someone rushes in and says "the US is more dangerous". I'm saying that the tactic is misleading, the point irrelevant. The "morality" of the US has *nothing* to do with the "morality" of China.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[nounderscores]

The point is that you have at least two known psychopaths with shotguns in a room full of other people of dubious morality. The room is getting rapidly hotter and you are running out of food. There was an escape stairwell, but it's dangerous, broken and expensive to fix.

You are one of those two shotgun toting psychopaths. You've already shot at least one person to prove a point (but nobody liked that guy anyway) and your colleague has done likewise a few times as well. People in the room are very worried about you.

Do you:

a) Become repentant of your sins and mend your ways and then tell the other psycho to do likewise?

b) Blow the guy's head off, before he shoots you or somebody you like?

c) Talk to him quietly while waving your gun around to stop other people in the room getting ideas? I mean, if the two of you team up you could eat all the other people in the room and not go hungry, right? Yeah, let's eat them.

I know that this view of the world is really screwed up, but if you look at world events, I think that this is the world that our leaders see.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[gstoddart]

Hey !!
Communisme only killed 100+ Millions !!
Lets give it a chance one more time!!!

So, you're saying that until the current US administration catches up with that number they're still OK?

Ignoring the fact that 100,000 Iraqis have been killed is hardly a good plan.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[SpaceLifeForm]

Yep. Look for IBM to just shutdown the division then instead of selling it. It will cost them more money, but it will be worth it to remove the albatross.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't say what other nations are doing is right, I simply pointed out that the USA has no moral highground from which to preach or impose policy and that it should really get it's own act in order before meddling with others affairs.

I happen to hail from England - I have many of the same criticisms of our our own government and policies. I could go on about how we invented concentration camps (in north africa IIRC) and we were also the first to use chemical weapons on the prople of the middle east - I think under Churchill. We also engaged in an illegal immoral foreign war although with less fervour than the USA and some of our own troops abuses in Iraq are currently coming to light - through courtmatrials and legal procedings that we are obliged to carry out in order to honour the geneva convention I may add.

Chinaman Square? Do you mean the Tiananmen protests in 1989? If you can't spell it put any old phonetic spelling into Google and it'll help :-)

Freakin heathen commies, you make me sick.

I'm not a commie but my political views are rather left of the norm for the USA (in many respects right of the norm for the EU though). In some ways I'd describe myself as a capitalist humanitarian libetarian - although those views often conflict :-(

I am however a proud heathen (to virtually any organised religion) as my views are agnostic.

As for your sickness, I don't think that's got much to do with me, more with your own difficulty in accepting a world view that isn't consistant with your own and challenges some of your preconceptions.

I would like to add that my political views are entirley my own, formed through research, debate and observation and are also open to change through an open, honest informed debate - can you step up to the challenge?

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[gnuLNX]

yeah...I agree they see things from a privledged point of view....and in my experience people that come from privledge are ofter extremely petty. That is worrisome. Most of the worlds leaders are most likely very petty.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Tyrdium]

*cough*

Speaking as an American... Many of us hold the same opinion as the rest of the world. We don't all approve of the war in Iraq. We don't all approve of Bush. Hell, a lot of us are absolutely disgusted with what's going on. Unfortunately, it's not like we can do much. Protest? Those don't do much. Rebellion? Yeah, that'll work... We're not all hypocritical; just some of us.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[miu]

Also, please note that my dislike of this deflectionary tactic applies to supporters of the US as well as well as detractors of the US.

A criticism of the US in Iraq is answered with a criticism regarding the condition of women in Afghanistan or the invasion of Tibet. A criticism of political executions in China or massive censorship is answered with a criticism of Guantanamo.

I use the term "morals" to describe the trustworthiness and goodness of a nation, but the word is really insufficient - because nations are not "good guys" and "bad guys". The morality of a nation is really only useful as an index of trust.

In the end it all comes down to self interest. When nations talk about morals they are either justifying an action, seeking to prevent another nation from taking an action, or vilifying an action undertaken by another nation.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[lgw]

I think the argument here is that communism looks good on paper, but doesn't work out so well in the real world. This has been demonstrated repeatedly.

Without trying to outcompete capitalism (a stupid idea and ultilmatley it's downfall) and constant undermining from the west things could have been far different.

So your saying it looked good in theory, but in a real-world scenario is didn't work out so well?

IMHO that really is the generic flaw with comunism - the whole system has to be comunist throughout. It only takes one person in a position of power to waver and the whole thing can unravel. Unfortunatley that's the thing about power, it tends to corrupt and in any community there has to be people with higher levels of responisbility or power in certain areas, it's human nature.

You seem to be arguing very strongly that while communism may be good in theory, human nature assures that future experiments with it will be doomed to the same fate as past ones.

A message for the new milenium "Comunism != Evil", lets get past those old predjudices now and learn to exist with people with different political ideas without trying to discredit and destroy them.


As you've so eloquently argued, communism can't work in the real world. Why should we not be critical of people advocating solutions that are known not to work very well? Should I not let "predjudice" cause me to try to discredit someone in my shop who advocates using IIS instead of Apache? IIS looks really good based on what MS says about it ...

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[homer_ca]

"There's a very good reason for the gummint to meddle in this affair though: national security."

News flash! A whole shitload of computers and electronics are already manufactured in China including many U.S. brands that contract out manufacturing to Chinese factories. iPods, Thinkpads, motherboards. If the Chinese wanted to steal our designs or trojan our computers it's already possible theoretically.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[ThousandStars]

Comparing something like Guantanamo Bay, where foreign non-soldiers (for lack of a better term) are held, with China, where the government wields absolute, arbitrary power over every citizen, is simply wrong. The biggest menace in the world at the moment is red and dwells in the East. It already invaded and swallowed Tibet, fought several border wars with India and continues to threaten Taiwan. Contrast that with the U.S., which did invade Iraq (an act I'm not going to justify because it was probably a mistake), but would like nothing better than the Iraqis to govern themselves -- so we can leave.

Obviously, I'm not going to argue that the U.S. is the pinnacle of morality, because it isn't. America's human rights record is vastly better than China's, and they're not even in the same league.

If you want to discuss real oppression, talk to someone like Harry Wu, a Chinese-American man who I've heard speak. He was forced into the lau-gai, which were slave labor camps operated by the Chinese that still exist today. Or talk to members of Falun-Gong. China's government is much, much worse in terms of human rights violations than America'a.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Nah, the Chinese didn't grease the right people.

You're cynical, I like that. You're also probably correct. American companies have the same problem in China. Who are supposed to bribe again?

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[twiddlingbits]

Which China? Goods made in Taiwan can also carry that label. It's an important distinction. I know of one large international company that was having its' laptops preloaded with software in China, and when those laptops were to be used by the group of the company that did Government business they had to completely re-image them just in case there were some Trojans planted. A LOT of large Chinese corporations have Government insiders in the management of the company, and they siphon off things they think are useful to advance the State. China on one hand is a very modern, (mostly)Free Market economy, but the Government is still FIRMLY in control. Do not for one instance think the people have any real rights. I don't know the details of Lenovo, but to have gotten as big as they are in the timeframe (less than 20 yrs) they had to have some help from the Government. I suspect the Gov't concerns are not the laptops themselves but things like the chip technologies that go INTO the laptops. I guess they could let the sale proceed but restrict Intel/AMD and others from selling the chips...

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[TheGavster]

You Americans and your blatant hypocrisy make me want to puke.

As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[DickBreath]

The biggest menace in the world at the moment is not just red; it's red, white and blue.

Maybe you should stop blaming the "United States" and blame the political party that is behind the policies you dislike. There are other parties. Maybe the biggest menace is an elephant symbol?

And before someone cries "flamebait"....
It would be hypocritical for a party (any party) to exercise certian policies, and then not stand behind those policies when someone merely expresses disapproval.
I'm not bashing a party. I'm merely pointing out that the US has multiple parties, with differing policies, and this might be a better way to direct disapproval.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[teromajusa]

A LOT of large Chinese corporations have Government insiders in the management of the company, and they siphon off things they think are useful to advance the State.

While in America, government has corporate insiders in the management of the country and they siphon off things they think are useful to advance their company.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[AstroDrabb]

It's funny, the land of freedom and capitalism is taking steps that would make a communist plutocracy proud.

I agree 100%. There is nothing "capitalist" about this move.

The Chinese are not the Red Menace they are made out to be. If anything, they are about as far from Red as you can get.

I don't agree with you there. If you are Chinese and live in China, try and say something negative about the Chinese regime. You will be taken away in no time and no one will have a clue where you have been taken. There were a bunch of college students that were taken away just for "speaking". It is really sad if you cannot say what you feel. It is basic Human nature to want to speak.

Imagine living somewhere where you could not say what you feel. Saying what you feel is a _basic_ human instinct that goes back ten's of thousands of years. And here comes the Chinese government and they arrest you for just _talking_! That is really sad IMO.

You can say that the Chinese are "capitalists" all you want. However, until the day comes that the Chinese _people_ can express themselves as _normal_ humans, I will consider the Chinese government to be total scum. Hey, I just said something bad about the Chinese government. Notice that I _won't_ go to jail or be taken away!

Dump on the U.S.A all you want, but I am at least granted basic human rights. I could say I hate Bush if I wanted to (even though I personally don't), and I won't be taken away by our government!

I personally believe that there are _tons_ of problems with the US government. Especially WRT bribes from big business or special interest groups. However, my basic rights as a human have _never_ been stepped on by the US government. You cannot say the same for the Chinese government.

Hey China, you suck! Come and get me!

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[AstroDrabb]

Who modded this Insightful?

No offense, but there is nothing Insightful about this post. Exactly what "great knowledge" would China gain by buying this PC division?

These are basic PC's! There are no great government technologies hidden in the IBM PC division.

You're exactly right, when no-one is being harmed!

Oh, please. How is China harming the USA? Should we as Americans turn into nothing but fighters that try to destroy anyone that competes against us?

I am a former U.S. Marine I served during the Gulf War. I am so tired of the typical American response to fight or kill any opponent. I hope that we (the USA) can wake up on day and actually work within the world.

What I fear as a former U.S. Maine is that one day the world will get tired of the US pushing them around. We (the USA) are are one bad-assed nation, however if the world tried to take us on, they would kick our @sses.

I have a very novel idea for the USA government. Why don't we try to work with the rest of the world, especially Europe, instead of always trying to fight them?

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[twiddlingbits]

Quit flogging your Haliburton horse, it's long since dead. You are really showing your ignorance. When a person from private industry enters Gov't service they have to put any assets in a blind trust and they cannot be involved with any procurement from the company they worked at for at least 3 yrs. That situation is VERY closely monitored by the Government and by the Defense and Government contractor Industry. Boeing lost a 700M+ 767 Tanker contract for just this very reason. They hired someone to work on a program that had been involved in the Procurement of the same program when they were a Military officer. The laws used to be much more lax, but as I hear it from those in the business the Bush administration is MUCH more strict about this than ever before for those in the Executive Branch. Congress "critters" seem to get around this by not sending the money to a specific company but wording legislation to award $$$ to firms that operate in thier state, and some of that work, even if the company is based in another state will end up in thier state.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[AstroDrabb]

Which China?

Does it really matter which China?

Main-Land China _thinks_ they own Taiwan. If/when Taiwan ever tried to show too much independence from Main-Land China, you can be pretty certain that China would go to war over that.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[twiddlingbits]

Well, they are pretty darn independant right now! How much more CAN they get? They have thier own laws, Government, elections, etc. China has been saber rattling over Tiawan for many years. Going to war with Taiwan would destroy what they want, the business assets and the land. They have no need for the people.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[evangellydonut]

*cough* Patriot Act *cough*

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[teromajusa]

Quit flogging your Haliburton horse, it's long since dead. You are really showing your ignorance.

I didn't mention Haliburton. I also didn't direct my comment to any branch of the government. And no, the issue is not dead. There are alot of questions to be resolved.

That situation is VERY closely monitored by the Government and by the Defense and Government contractor Industry.

Yeah I've something about that. Maybe they should hire more foxes to guard the hen house.

Congress "critters" seem to get around this by not sending the money to a specific company but wording legislation to award $$$ to firms that operate in thier state,

Well thats one example. But there are worse examples....like Bill Tauzin negotiating a job as a lobbyist for the drug industry while serving as chairman of the commitee in charge of overseeing that industry (and crafting the perscription drug bill).

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Darby]

Comparing something like Guantanamo Bay, where foreign non-soldiers (for lack of a better term) are held, with China, where the government wields absolute, arbitrary power over every citizen, is simply wrong.

So kidnapping a bunch of innocent people and keeping them in cages and torturing them is ok, as long as they aren't *all* your citizens makes such a tremendous difference?!?

America's human rights record is vastly better than China's, and they're not even in the same league.

That's hilarious.
I suppose genocide doesn't relate to human rights in your book.

Wow, so your idea is that fighting a few wars is the ultimate evil?
We've done everything you have accused China of in your post and more.

Now if you truly believe these idiotic lies you are posting, then how about you come up with some actual comparisons.
For example:

How many democratically elected leaders has China overthrown to install brutal dictators who murdered 10s of thousands of their own citizens? Now how many has the US?

Which of the 2 has committed genocide?

See, your argument is worth nothing when you leave out all the juicy bits.

Here's another hilarious bit:

Contrast that with the U.S., which did invade Iraq (an act I'm not going to justify because it was probably a mistake),

Hot tip, Sparky. There is no probably. It was all based on blatant lies.
If you hate your country so much that you don't have the courage to look it in the eyes, then please stop making your feeble attempts to represent it. You are embarassing those of us who do actually give a shit about what America once stood for.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[twiddlingbits]

Haliburton is DEAD. It's been investigated to a fare the well. Let it go. There are more important things to worry about. Your Time article is political BS timed to occur right before the election. Lots of folks claim to be harrassed whistleblowers but few truly qualify. Most have an axe to grind. The laws on that are quite specific. I've turned in Gov't programs myself and never qualified under the law. I told ya Congress critters seem to know how far they can push the law. I don't know about that case you mention. If he was not running for re-election he DOES need a job. Proving undue influence is very very hard. Even if it IS there, those level of folks play CYA very well.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[R2.0]

I don't think posting as AC gives you a moral high ground, either. Not that it has deterred you.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Anonymous Coward]

On the topic of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, etc. it is VERY important to note that, in actuality, what activities American forces are conducting are quite legal, although they are far less than moral.

From my perspective, there are a lot of people repeating the media's sensationalist view that we aren't abiding by the Geneva Conventions...but if you even read a summary of the rules, you'll notice a few key points:

* The only people given "rights" are soldiers and official forces in uniform representing a country at war. Additionally, guerillas are protected ONLY if they are easily distinguishable and separable from the civilian population and have a distinct chain of command.

i.e. "In order for the distinction between combatants and civilians to be clear, combatants must wear uniforms and carry their weapons openly during military operations and during preparation for them."

* Feigning death in order to surprise and kill an adversary is punishable by death.

* Houses of worship used as activity centers for wartime activities lose their protected status.

* Any forces that do not fight by the rules of war automatically lose protected status (if they already had one).

i.e. "Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups -- and thus endanger the civilian population -- are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention."

Also note that mercenaries ("soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers") are not given any protection...

Think all of those "POWs" are simple Afghans or Iraqis? I doubt it. It's a well known fact that many terrorists and "fighters" in both nations originated in other Arab and predominantly Muslim countries.

Read the news. Buried in the stories are the parts where U.S. forces discovered large-scale weapons caches in mosques, where coalition forces were fired upon from the mosques themselves...

Oh, and how about the part where a terrorist feigned being dead and then pointed his gun at a Marine, who promptly shot him?

Oh, and how about the part where groups of combatants in civilian clothes opened fire on coalition forces? Or maybe the part where illegal combatants (terrorists) held up a white flag, pretending to surrender, before opening fire on coalition forces once they had gotten closer?

How much more will it take? Has the U.S. done some immoral and ethically questionable things? Yes. But, so has everyone else. I realize this doesn't justify some of our mistakes, but I don't understand the undue focus on American mistakes when significantly less attention is paid on what these terrorists do on a regular basis.

So far, the U.S. has a pretty good track record in both Afghanistan (largely forgotten by now) and Iraq. I've seen reports from military personnel (speaking on their own, not on behalf of the U.S. government) and they're totally different from what the media reports.

From what the media would have us believe, dear God, the war is far worse in Iraq than it really is. Remember, the media wants to sell papers, advertising space, whatever...so they'll make it as sensationalist as possible, and positive optimistic news doesn't sell. Violence and sex and torture and rape sells, though.

Keep this in mind. The U.S., although it's far from perfect, isn't such a bad place (nor does it have such a bad government).

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[anaesthetica]

...China on one hand is a very modern, (mostly)Free Market economy, but the Government is still FIRMLY in control.

China not even close to being "mostly" free market. Only the areas along the coastline can actually take advantage of market mechanisms or the fruits of modernity. Up to 70% of the Chinese population is still locked in a pseudo-Communist agricultural sector. About 20% of the population (living on the coasts) could be called middle class (by Chinese standards, not Western standards), and about 10% are filthy rich because they're in the with corrupt party officials.

You are absolutely right, however, when you say that the Government is still firmly in control. Don't forget that.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[anaesthetica]

Mao slaughters 25 million of his own population: you buy his book and remark on its pretty red color.
The U.S. imprisons ~700 Afghans fighting alongside the Taliban and Al-Qaeda: you're so scandalized you get queasy and spit up on yourself.
The 100,000 estimate is neither conservative nor peer reviewed, and was rejected by nearly every credible expert the media has interviewed to date.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[neonmagic]

Absofuckinglutely spot on! We all know that Microsoft owns the US politicians, and most probably half the judges as well, it's just a fact that the US is a place full of corruption, but most Americans are too proud to admit it. Dave

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[bacon55]

It's like a little fly buzzing around...buzz...buzz...

Nations do not function as moral individuals.

There has not been a powerful nation in HISTORY that abides by your perverse view of pragmatic statecraft. Nations represent tribes, seperate, and competing. Only until VERY recently has this concept of soft hearted foreign policy been entertained.

It is not the responsibility of an individual nation state to ensure the well being of other nations or their citizens. However, it may well be in their best interests. If you think that standing up for utopian ideals is a legitimate interest for a nation to exercise, please elaborate. Until that time, I cannot see how the practice of giving competing nations an advantage is going to benefit the citizens of the United States, or ANY nation that chooses to do so.

Pragmatism and greed are what drives the machinations of the world, there is no room for idealistic humanism when the future of the nation is on the line. That's not to say there are practical limits, but it is still entirely a matter of cost vs benefit. Obviously another holocaust is not beneficial to anyone, including the antagonist nation.

Look at history for your sample. Speak of a time where nations, empires, or kingdoms ever practiced statecraft according to your standards. It has not happened, nor will it ever happen so long as we are divided into seperate economic and political entities. If you bring up unificiation as the answer to this problem, you'd be wrong. Environmental, cultural, and economic diversity prohibits a unified political system. Economic concerns above all eliminate this possibility, as currency would no longer be useful as a tool for adapting an economy to a particular market.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[nounderscores]

There may be none as obsessed with world domination as the USA (in part because the USA has Rupert Murdoch poisoning our minds) there are others who are mildly interested in world domination.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that George W Bush Jr was widely known to have never traveled outside CONUS before taking office.

(I'm writing this from Australia.)

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[ThousandStars]

So kidnapping a bunch of innocent people and keeping them in cages and torturing them is ok, as long as they aren't *all* your citizens makes such a tremendous difference?!?

What proof do you have that those captured at Guantanamo Bay are innocent? Most of the inmates were caught in Afganistan for fighting against US soldiers or having links to the Taliban.

I suppose genocide doesn't relate to human rights in your book.The US has never committed genocide, and you're trolling when you say that.

If you hate your country so much that you don't have the courage to look it in the eyes, then please stop making your feeble attempts to represent it. You are embarassing those of us who do actually give a shit about what America once stood for.

Fine. If your agenda revolves chiefly around hating the US and trolling /., so be it.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Darby]

What proof do you have that those captured at Guantanamo Bay are innocent?

What even circumstantial evidence do you have that they are not? So you, in your infinite wisdom, know that there are no innocent people there (and in Abu Gharib)? And you base this on what, the words of our leaders who have proven themselves so competent at this sort of thing?

The US has never committed genocide, and you're trolling when you say that.

The Native Americans.
You are, of course, aware that at one point US law provided few if any penalties for murdering them as they were not "quite" human, right? You do know that they were murdered in huge groups by our military under government orders?

You are clearly the troll, either that or disgustingly ignorant.

Fine. If your agenda revolves chiefly around hating the US and trolling /., so be it.

I love the US. In fact, I love it so much that I am willing to honestly look at it's actions and step up like a man when it does things which are contrary to its nature.
The complete lack of such courage and integrity which is demonstrated by your inability to face such basic simple undeniable historical facts shows your character quite clearly, and had you the courage to honestly look yourself in the face, you would be disgusted as well.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[ezeri]

"Two Wrongs Dont Make a Right, but Three Lefts Do" is a Relient K album.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[Shihar]

Guantanamo bay.

Your bitch is that a few hundred people snagged out of a war zone who were not wearing uniforms are not getting a fair trail by American standards? Let me try and hold back the tears. The moral of the story is that if you are going to fight the US and want to be treated like a soldier, wear a uniform. If you are not going to wear a unform, don't be surprised when the US is leery about just sending you free on your merry way.

Comparing Gunantamo bay to China is like comparing a bully who hit another kid to an axe murderer. Yeah, they are both guilty of violence, clearly it is the same thing.

As for Iraq, the damage done by people being directly killed by American weapons is pocket change, even by the most liberal estimates, compared to the number dead from sanctions that were on Iraq before the war. The sanctions were imposed by the UN. If your nation is a member of the UN, guess what? Your nation merrily helped to starve the people of Iraq too.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[NordicMan]

You think we are the land of free capitalism? Well, we are more free, especially if you have a lot of money. Then you have a good deal of freedom, especially to pay for all the things that you need to pay for to get any license or permits. Yes, some of these things are in the public interest. But you have the gov't's big message that we are in a new reality, after the Trade Towers destruction, necessitating a change to the way things are done, making Big Brother needed, to listen to or investigate whomever someone describes as a security issue without proving the need for it. Actually, when it comes to purchase of large business, especially by china, I am kind of glad that it is looked at. It would be interesting to see what really goes on behind these investigations. Are you saying that the chinese people are capitalist at heart, or that the government there is?

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[nounderscores]

Rupert Murdoch no longer pays taxes to australia, being a fully naturalized american citizen.

George Walker Bush Jr (2 term) was the son of George Herbert Walker Bush Sr (1 term).

They can drop the Jr and Sr any time they like, as the current president has totally eclipsed his father now.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[commodoresloat]

The point is that you have at least two known psychopaths with shotguns in a room full of other people of dubious morality. The room is getting rapidly hotter and you are running out of food. There was an escape stairwell, but it's dangerous, broken and expensive to fix.

You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[zentogo]

Has anyone considered that Maybe IBM wants out of the deal? I mean maybe they need a way to backout with out hurting future business plans.

The arguement seems illogical to us. But you could probably sell it to the Chinese as a case of Government Egotism.

I don't know. It seems like China has everything already, they just wanted the outsourcing and possibly efficientcy of IBM.

In any case, if a company has "market power" they could probably organize an injunction against themselves to save-face in a bad deal.

Re:Business ought to be left alone

[techno-vampire]

The moderators called you "interesting," and "insightful." As a metamoderator, I say, wrong. You're nothing but a hateful troll.

So it begins

[scapermoya]

The last-ditch efforts of a superpower that will hate being #2 when when China gets its act together in the next generation or two.

Re:So it begins

[Skye16]

Probably one of the best things that could happen, though. Maybe then people will realize that resting on your laurels is always a bad idea in the long run.

Re:So it begins

[glindsey]

#3. The way things are going, if the EU gets its act together in the next generation or two, we'll be on our way to wistfully quoting "the sun never sets on the American Empire"...

The facility in North Carolina is really strange

[Anonymous Coward]

I encountered this IBM facility almost two decades ago by accident, when making a wrong turn. It had some innocent looking name like "ibm education center" or similarly meaningless and harmless sounding name, and was huge, all of it spread far back from the highway. With the security vans and cameras and other things all around, it did not look at all like what the sign might suggest. Also, from the moment we made the turn into their lot, to the time we exited and for awhile down the highway, one of their dark security vans followed us everywhere we drove. It gave the impression in many ways of...something "more interesting" going on there. And this was around 89.

What is the difference

[biophysics]

between this sale and outsourcing?

Re:What is the difference

[jerichohol]

This is a sale of a loss making business so you dont have to take the blame.

Outsourcing is where you let someone else do the dirty work but you take the blame.

So yes there is a difference.

BTW if you own IBM PC's instead of learning Hindi, Mandarin is the way to go

Re:What is the difference

[TheKidWho]

Well for one, according the the agreement, Lenovo is going to be relocating its headquarters to America. That is one of the fears, that the employees are going to be in America and will somehow conduct espionage.

Laissez-Faire?

[JulianOolian]

I thought the US were supposed to be the laissez-faire free marketeers of the world?

If China was blocking US participation in their markets on these grounds, I've little doubt the US would be taking the matter to the WTO (and winning).

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[antifoidulus]

China does this type of stuff to US products in China all the time. They have a ton of "non-tarriff" barriers. The reason the US has yet to make a major challenge to them in the WTO is that:
a. They are good at buying politicians(*Cough* Clinton *cough*) and
b. They are a major(if not the foremost) consumer of American debt. Dubya can't run his tax cut and spend government without them, so the US doesn't really make any challenges to them in the WTO.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[TheKidWho]

Wrong, the American people are the largest buyers of American Debt, not the chinese government.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[R.Caley]

China does this type of stuff to US products in China all the time.

This is not about China blocking sales of US products into China, but about the US blocking sales of a US product (in this case a brand, intangable, but still a product) to China.

Ie it is a case of the US government putting up a non-tarrif barrier against US exports.

You missed a reason for the US not taking China to the WTO -- the US is one of the two top offenders against WTO rules in spirit and in letter, and so from it's glass house can only really afford to throw stones at the EU, who are the other big offender.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[Hognoxious]

In the near future it will probably get a lot harder for the US to find money to fill the financial gaps in the budgets.

Harder? Is it hard to:
Consume a bit less?
Make better stuff, that other people want?
Work a bit harder to make more of that stuff?

Not hard at all.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[kypper]

You're thinking microeconomically. Put yourself into the macro world, and see the real issues that rise from a dropping dollar: international agreements all go to hell because the original ones were based on the assumption that US currency was worth something; interest rates skyrocket, causing businesses to have reduced income, which is then passed on to the consumer; Increased US dollars must be spent on supplies, so the cost for the same object increases, which is, of course, passed to the end consumer. Think wages will rise that quickly? Not under this administration... all the jobs being created are min-wage.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[flabbergast]

Also, don't forget that China is expected to be the largest economy in the world soon, so everyone's bending over backwards (or just simply bending over) to get a piece of the action. Take car manufacturers for instance. They cannot sell cars without first teaming up with a Chinese corporation. And what does teaming up entail? Well, pretty much giving up all your R&D on whatever model you want to sell in China. So the hundreds of millions of dollars that a company spends to develop a car is handed over to a Chinese corporation. Could you imagine another country doing that? It'd be like BMW wanting to sell in the US and the US government telling them "Sure, but you have to team up with Ford and give Ford all the proprietary information on the vehicles you want to introduce in the US." So, China does this type of stuff to us all the time, but we bend over and take it just to get our foot in the door.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[Hognoxious]

You're thinking microeconomically.

Another dyslexic mind-reader.

I am not thinking at the level of the individual person or firm (that is what microeconomics means), but of the US economy as a whole (which does fall into the scope of macroeconomics - if you though macroeconomics means international trade only, you're mistaken). Do those points not apply? Basically the US pays itself more than it's worth.

And where did I mention causing the dollar to fall? Improving the balance of trade tends to do the opposite, or so classical economic theory states.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[Hognoxious]

Increased US dollars must be spent on supplies, so the cost for the same object increases, which is, of course, passed to the end consumer. Think wages will rise that quickly?

Well if they did, it wouldn't be solving the balance of payments problem, would it? Yes, it will be hard for those on low incomes. Should the burden be spread more fairly? - I'm inclined to agree. But those are more political than economic questions.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[conteXXt]

hmmmm I remember the last time I wanted a Jaguar. It was when Jaguars looked like Jaguars. Not like Fords.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[CmdrGravy]

That would be a bit like when BMW took over Land Rover, learnt as much as they could, sold Land Rover and released their own 4x4 vehicle 2 weeks later ?

Actually though if that is the price to pay to sell to the huge Chinese market and companies are happy to pay it then that's fair enough, why should China expose it's markets to powerful Western companies without getting something back in exchange ?

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[flabbergast]

I doubt BMW really learned much from Land Rover. The engine in the Range Rover is still a BMW derivative. BMW got something very good out of the very bad Rover deal: Mini.

You make a good point about it being market driven, but the way China currently treats IP, Western corporations won't be around long after Chinese knock offs have driven them out of the market.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[CmdrGravy]

It's entirely possible but from a Chinese perspective it's also a good thing. I think China is behaving very intelligently in ensuring that their current benefit of low wages and cheap manufacturing power can progress to real technological innovation and progress in the future when it's factories may well be undercut by other countries at some point in the future.

Western companies can still keep up with research and development, once Chinese companies get up to our current baseline of knowledge they too can begin to develop new products which in the long term, in a friendly political climate, we will all benefit from.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[kypper]

It would take quite a bit of a drop to be able to match the value derived from wages paid in manufacturing countries such as China, Taiwan, etc.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[flabbergast]

I completely agree with you that from a Chinese perspective its a good thing, but the IP problems are horrendous. I'm a car guy and I follow developments in that area, and I think every major manufacturer has at least one lawsuit (if not more) open right now in China because the vehicle they're building is being ripped off by another Chinese company. So, Honda sells a vehicle for X, and included in X is the cost of R&D. Company A rips off (and by rips off I mean literally steals the plans) and begins to build an identical vehicle only they sell it at Y, which is substantially cheaper than X, because there was no R&D expenditure. If this is the norm, then the only way to overcome the loss is to pump money from your other business units to bolster this business unit. That's bad business. The hypothetical company does damage on more fronts than one too. Usually the product is sub-par and is traded on Honda's good name. Plus, every sale of "other" product means a sale that Honda didn't get (well, there's probably not a direct correlation, but I'm sure there's some loss of sales). So, its a double whammy against Honda.

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[kypper]

I had indeed thought you had meant from the individual level, propogating out to influence the macroeconomic level.

I don't have faith in the American populace to that degree... they are the same who elected W a second time around.

Thus your proposition to consume less, etc, as I saw it, WAS microeconomic. Macroeconomically, it cannot be done until political drive is there to do it (not for at least 4 more years)

Re:Laissez-Faire?

[theantix]

I thought the US were supposed to be the laissez-faire free marketeers of the world?

HAHAHAHAHA! Ever considered a career in comedy? You seem to be on the right track already. Laissez-faire free marketers... you guys crack me up. And Bush's America respecting a WTO ruling lately? Golden! Priceless! Comedy genius!

If by chance you were not joking about that, I must say your assumptions are deadly wrong. Like every other country I'm aware of, the USA uses a mixed socialist/capitalist system and is protectionist in a variety of ways. If you ignore the rhetoric and look at the reality, this is quite obvious to even the most casual observer.

We will see what China has to say about this

[antifoidulus]

China can always threaten to stop buying up US debt. That would mean a large spike in interest rates in order to make buying US debt more attractive to investors. It would probably also mean a tax hike, something that Dubya would like to avoid at all costs.
Cheney may have said that deficits don't matter, but sooner or later, he will learn that giving the largest dictatorship on Earth a large voice in your government is a bad idea. (Esp. when you are supposed to be promoting "freedom" and "democracy")

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[TheKidWho]

The largest buyer of US debt is the American people, not china.

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[andy1307]

It would probably also mean a tax hike, something that Dubya would like to avoid at all costs.

Wouldn't it be something that the Chinese would like to avoid at all costs..a tax hike for the largest consumer market for their products will be like a tariff on their exports.

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[2Bits]

Well, if I were the head of China's government, I would do nothing, and let the market settle it. And I would keep buying US debt, until I own more than 50% of the US debt, and I would be able to do more remote control of the US government (or at least, influence it to my favor).

Could this scenario happen? It could, if the government officials keep the country running like this for a while, and do not screw it with political unstability, and we would be able to see some new rules set by China. I'm not saying it's good or bad (although I do hope this would happen very soon), but that'll be interesting to see.

Whether the US like it or not, China is going to play the rules in the US's court now. Although the chinese companies are still very small, compared to the american/european/japanese ones, but we had seen this kind of situations change in about 10-15 years time. So, when the chinese companies grow big enough, they'll look to acquire some oversea asset (for any purpose, even just for diversification).

Whether you like it or not, this is capitalism. I'm crossing my fingers.

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[jfp51]

Quick comment, debt is not equity, it does not give you any control per se, although having a large part of someone's debt obviously makes them listen to you ;)

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[gordo3000]

you do realize that China doesn't buy US debt because they are trying to be our friends or are somehow similar to western germany as america was coming off the gold standard??

China buys american debt as one of its many ways of keeping its currency down(covert to dollar then buy our debt,note you can keep your real investment value about the same or with small growth from interest on debt you don't get when holding cash). It is in China's favor to continue to hold its currency down as they have been doing for a long time. It has been pegged to float around the same rate for longer than I can remember and this is beleived to be one of the reasons so many jobs are exported to China.

If China were to dumb US debt, it could be a little problematic for its own economic plans. A spike in the US interest rate would draw a great deal of money into our country and we would see the dollar INCREASE in value. This would cause major problems for China as it would have to either buy up its own currency to hold hte exchange rate steady with the US dollar thereby losing its competitive advantage with several other countries or it could revalue its currency.

Anyways, if these doomsday prediction of China gaining control over the US by owning enough of its debt ever came to pass, the US always has one major trump card, we can at any time invalidate all those US treasury bonds and they become nothing more than scraps of paper. Yes, I know its extreme, but its pretty much on par with the idea that China would gain a say in our government that way.

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[makomk]

Anyways, if these doomsday prediction of China gaining control over the US by owning enough of its debt ever came to pass, the US always has one major trump card, we can at any time invalidate all those US treasury bonds and they become nothing more than scraps of paper.

Yes, but the US government could probably say goodbye to being able to borrow money for a long while. Do you think that anyone would trust their finanical promises after an action like that?

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[Hognoxious]

debt is not equity, it does not give you any control per se, although having a large part of someone's debt obviously makes them listen to you ;)

Agreed on the debt != equity point but there's an old saying: If you owe the bank fifty thousand dollars, you've got a problem. If you owe the bank fifty million, the bank has a problem.

The US could devalue (could?!?) its currency, effectively shrinking the value of those IOUs (I mean bonds). In an extreme case, it could simply not pay and tell them to sod off; Russia and Argentina have done this before and got away with it.

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[gordo3000]

nope, not in the slightest, but I also don't believe that China will control our policy by holding our debt. just speaking as an american, if it came down to a choice between China having a major say in our policy and not being able to borrow money, I would take the latter in a heartbeat. but that is just me.

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Mark that as redundant. The guy thinks that by repeating something, he can make it true. Anyway, he already posted the exact same comment earlier in this discussion.

Re:We will see what China has to say about this

[fugue]

Now that you mention it, if it came down to a choice between Bush having a major say in our policy and not being able to borrow money, I would take the latter in a heartbeat.

Re:The facility in North Carolina is really strang

[Anonymous Coward]

It's where they send misbehaving employees. I've been there and it's really not so bad. Lots of free drinks and rah rah team building exercises. It's kind of the last chance stop before they boot you out of the company.

One of the outings during the 2 week "education" training was a trip to see the Tarheels play. Not being a big fan, I sat it out back in the dormitory. Unfortunately, that showed my "lack of team spirit" and counted against me in my final evaluation.

I don't work for Blue anymore, but back in the late 70's it was a pretty great place to be.

From Lenovo's website

[biophysics]

Sometimes the best way to win the game is play the game together. http://www.lenovogrp.com/ But the question is who the winner is?

Dell a better target

[ehack]

Congrats for being the first. Now, for the funny bit.

Maybe it would be easier for LeNovo to purchase Dell or HP, they have all their Turing human-equivalent english speakers (sales, support) located in India, and Lenovo does manufacturing anyway in China.

"Might" be the US gov at work ...

[Moulinneuf]

First of all the : " unnamed sources "familiar with the matter" Might be wrong and just trying to stir some trouble. Lets wait until the "final" decision shall we ...

Secondly The US government need its INTEL upgraded , serioulsy , every computer parts ever made this days have some components made in China. ( welcome to the reality )

They already make the IBM computer there ... and all the other computer too. They are "only" assembled in the US.

The US actually today make no ( as in zilch , zero , nada ) computer part whatso ever on its own ...

All there going to end up doing is look like fool for no obvious reason and going to hurt one of there own company and maybee bring them into bankrupty ...

And could even close the enormous Chinese market to all the others from the US ...

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[shanen]

Well, you obviously have something against IBM, but your "facts" are totally bogus. The lack of evidential links is obvious enough.

IBM support is not going anywhere. It's profitable and has a very high reputation. The main concern on the IBM side is whether or not Lenovo will stay with IBM after the transition period.

Dell does not sell IBM ThinkPad computers. The only thing I can imagine you are talking about is some kind of really screwy deal where Dell salesmen are playing some kind of marketing middleman game. Of course, in that case, I can quite well understand why it would be in Dell's interest to foul things up as long they thought they could blame it on someone else. That would also explain the rolling heads, come to think of it.

Commoditized espionage

[Hal XP]

I can understand the fears of the US government. Like everything else, espionage is probably becoming commoditized. PC technologies -- including the Intel and AMD CPUs inside them -- are relatively low-tech as far as millenium technologies go. But link several and you have a commodity supercomputer. Terrorism has for a long time been a form of commoditized warfare. Small, treacherous attacks combine to give the impression of strength against a state with an overwhelming superiority in conventional or nuclear arms.

Re:Commoditized espionage

[bradleyland]

Yes, but who needs to buy IBM to take advantage of this commoditized espionage stretegy when there's Newegg!

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[af_robot]

For your information:
IBM DO NOT repair its PC's - all service duties lays on IBM business partners. If your company wants to get IBM business partner status to sell IBM's PC/Servers then your should have your own service center.
IBM only provides service centers with spare parts and repair informations/trainings.
All currently produced IBM PCs will be repaired in IBM Business Partnes service centers for a long time - IBM currenty offering service pack for 3+ years.
Btw: How many "laptop problems" did you have with ThinkPads?!

Why IBM need to sell

[Ev0lution]

Bad news for IBM if it's blocked, because if you look at the full year report* it's clear why they're so keen to get rid of it.

Personal Systems Group made $162 million off turnover of nearly $13 billion, that's a 1.2% margin. Software group made $4.5 billion from a $15 billion turnover. Hell, WebSphere MQ Series made several times the profit of the whole PC business, and that's a team of maybe 200 people. CICS made even more. From IBM's point of view, Personal Systems Group isn't worth the effort or the risk.

*http://www.ibm.com/investor/financials/quarterly/ 4q04earnings.phtml

Re:Why IBM need to sell

[Roofus]

$162 million is $162 million. Who cares what the turnover is as long as it's generating a profit?

Because that 13 Billion could be put to use for something that has greater profit margins. Imagine being able to make 3 Billion instead of 162 Million.

Re:Why IBM need to sell

[Anonymous Coward]

$162 million is $162 million. Who cares what the turnover is as long as it's generating a profit?

Two reasons. Risk, and return on capital.

First, risk. Looking at it simplistically, they spent nearly $13 billion to make slightly closer to $13 billion. A small increase in costs, and suddenly they're spending $14 billion to make $13 billion. And hardware costs have a history of being unpredictable - taiwan earthquake, maybe, and it's a big loss next year.

As for return, software group only needs to spend $10 billion to make $15 billion, so why spend that other $13 billion on hardware when they can spend it on something with a reasonable margin?

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[Eric Giguere]

heads are rolling over having standardized on IBM (from Dell)

Does it really have anything to do with service? We've been switching from ThinkPads to Dells mostly because you can get the equivalent Dell laptop for (say) $500 cheaper. You sure it's not just the up-front cost (as opposed to after-market service) that's driving things?

Eric
View your HTTP headers using this page

When did this happen?

[g0hare]

Computers are all made in China anyway! We don't build cars in America, we don't grow food in America, we don't even do tech support in America, we don't make steel in America, we don't make clothes in America and we're busy moving all our jobs that pay well overseas! When exactly did this kind of behavior become a "national security problem?" instead of good business? I mean I know all those people who used to make textiles in the South all just went right out and got themselves a degree after the mills closed - what, you say they weren't smart enough to do that?

Then WHAT THE HELL is left for them to do when all those jobs are gone except cook meth in their trailers? Or become religious terrorists?

Re:When did this happen?

[TheKidWho]

Hah ok, lemme sort this out for you

We do build cars in america, in fact AFAIK All cars are sold in the US domestically are required to have been built in the US.

OHh and we certainly do grow food in the US, thats what the entire midwest is for you nut.

As far as tech support in America, yes we do do it. What do you think IBM does? Lots and lots of tech support. Ohh and all that Tech support overseas sucks, a bot on a PC would be just as good for tech support.

Re:When did this happen?

[mmkkbb]

All cars are sold in the US domestically are required to have been built in the US.

WHAT?! That is ludicrous. Back it up.

Re:When did this happen?

[molog]

What happens when there is not another company down the street to work at? That has nothing to do with work ethic, and that is where we are headed.

Molog

Re:When did this happen?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

We do build cars in america, in fact AFAIK All cars are sold in the US domestically are required to have been built in the US.

Nope. My car is built in Japan. Ferraris are certainly built in Italy.

Re:When did this happen?

[wilsonjd]

There are MANY cars sold in the US that are made in Japan, Korea, Germany, etc. However, Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys (the two best selling cars in America,) are both made in the US. More than half of all "Japanese" cars are made in the US. Even BMW makes cars in the US. But not ALL of them.

Re:When did this happen?

[g0hare]

OK so the mill that employed half the town shut down. Where exactly is "down the street" where I can get a job? HUH? You can't even get a job flipping burgers! That town is dead. There is no more work there! You must live in Atlanta or something, because you don't seem to have an idea of what happens to a small town when the business that is the backbone of the local economy just goes away with no notice.

Re:When did this happen?

[learn fast]

We don't build cars in America

False. The car and light truck business remains one of America's largest industries.

we don't grow food in America

False. Last I checked, we were paying people to not grow food for the (supposed) interest of price stability.

we don't even do tech support in America

Increasingly true, but hardly categorical.

we don't make steel in America

False. Not like we used to, but it's still one of our largest exports.

we don't make clothes in America

True. I can't ever remember seeing "USA" on the "assembled in" field on the tag on any piece of clothing.

I refer you to the CIA Atlas on the United States, economy section for more information. We may not manufacture computers, for instance, but they may be designed and marketed by US companies, which is ultimately the better place to be employed. Look before you leap.

Re:When did this happen?

[nvrrobx]

My 2004 Toyota Solara was made in Tennessee.

Re:When did this happen?

[HMA2000]

Get a grip dude. Your hysteria serves no purpose other than to make you look like a hyper reactionary idiot.

By the way, the US exported over 700 billion dollars worth of "nothing" in 2003. That does not include the stuff produced domestically. Maybe you should learn something before you start your shrieking.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/p ro duct/enduse/exports/c0000.html

Re:When did this happen?

[minus_273]

"we don't build cars in America, we don't grow food in America, "

lots of people in flyover country would disagree with you. The us does produce cars (show mean a non american made taxi or cop car). It is also one of the largest agricultural produces in the world (if not the largest)

Re:When did this happen?

[dlelash]

My Japanese car was built in America...

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[B747SP]

The real story is that the government has millions of IBMs bought in the past two years that are now just so much scrap due to lack of support.

With respect, those millions of IBM PCs were scrap the moment they left the factory.

Every time I say something bad about IBM PCs on slashdot, an IBM employee with mod points mods me down as a Troll. I don't understand why, but hey, I'll try again...

I'm responsible for a fleet of around 100 personal computers - some desktops, most laptops. In years past, there was a corporate rule that said "Must Buy IBM" (they gave us a 'free' teaching lab worth of computers, we sold out, something, something)... So a significant magority of that fleet of computers are IBM PCs. P3-500, P3-650 and early P4 desktops, and a lot of 600E, 600X, and T21 laptops.

All of the IBM equipment, without exception, has failed at three years of age, plus or minus two months. The desktops have two failure modes: either the power supply just dies, or the brittle plastic bracket that holds the power switch inside the case breaks and falls off. You can generally jury-rig a solution for the brittle plastic, but the power supplys are made from unobtanium - exactly the physical opposite of an otherwise identical power supply that Gateway and many others used - and so you simply can't replace a power supply short of paying IBM prices for spares.

The 600 series stinkpads have a single failure mode: The battery charging circuit fails at precisely three years of age. If that damned blinking orange "I'm not working" light doesn't drive you mad, the fact that your laptop is now a desktop will!

The T21 laptops have two failure modes: either someone farts in the general direction of the grossly under-engineered screens and they either break, or just go a terrible pink colour, -or- the mini-PCI slot fails, and you lose modem and ethernet. Motherboard replacement.

Now these failures aren't one or two machines. These are all machines. They all fail that way.

Now you can't tell me that these failures aren't in the product by design.

By comparison, I have old P1, P2, and P3 gateway and Dell machines lying around everywhere, and those damn things just won't die!!!! I still have one old P1-60 gateway box with about 120Mb RAM in it running FreeBSD, MySQL, Apache and stuff, and with an uptime of about 2 years. It won't go away!!!

Nah man, this IBM stuff... it has the technical potential to be good stuff, but whilever they keep designing that shit to fail at three years of age, I'll not ever buy it.

This is like

[cyberkahn]

sticking your finger in the leaking dike or singling out a grain of sand from the beach. It's already too late. We have exported a majority of our technology to China already, which of course is being copied, therefore, saving China billions in R and D. America's greed has sold itself out.

Before you flame me, yes, I am a patriotic American, however, I am not blind to what is happening. America is going down the path of Rome. Just give us more bread and circuses. Football is more important than academics. Money is more important than ethics.

Re:This is like

[Ludo.Sanders]

It's not just the USA, europe is one the same road. Western country's are going down the drain together.

Re:This is like

[TheKidWho]

Hey the east roman empire lasted for thousands of years!

Security concerns over a commodity?

[hussar]

Computers, at least at the PC level, are a commodity good that are produced with very narrow cost to sales price margins. This makes them very similar to toasters, coffemakers, small refrigerators, etc. IBM wants to sell its PC unit because it can no longer compete or doesn't want to continue expending the energy and resources it takes to compete. This competition arises from the fact that there are any number of other producers in the market turning out computers which are almost indistiguishable from the ones IBM is producing. Some of these other producers are in China. So, it appears that this ruling would stop IBM from selling to a Chinese firm a capabilty other Chinese firms already possess and which is causing the market pressures that pushed IBM to consider the sale in first place.

Where in all of that is a national security concern?

free market is just a slogan.

[fams]

It will be the same to say: "Hello everybody, free market is only an idea. We don't belive in it. We just want you open your market to US.

Topic rang an ancient bell...

[shanen]

[One of the key figures is already missing...]

George B.: Condi! Nice to see you. What's happening?
Condie R.: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.
George B.: Great. Lay it on me.
Condie R.: Hu is the new leader of China.
George B.: That's what I want to know.
Condie R.: That's what I'm telling you.
George B.: That's what I'm asking you. Who is the new leader of China?
Condie R.: Yes.
George B.: I mean the fellow's name.
Condie R.: Hu.
George B.: The guy in China.
Condie R.: Hu.
George B.: The new leader of China.
Condie R.: Hu.
George B.: The Chinaman!
Condie R.: Hu is leading China.
George B.: Now whaddya' asking me for?
Condie R.: I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. Hu is leading China.
George B.: Well, I'm asking you. Who is leading China?
Condie R.: That's the man's name.
George B.: That's who's name?
Condie R.: Yes.
George B.: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of China?
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle East.
Condie R.: That's right.
George B.: But Yassir's a leftie. Then who is in China?
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Yassir is in China?
Condie R.: No, sir.
George B.: Then who is?
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Yassir?
Condie R.: No, sir.
George B.: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone.
Condie R.: Kofi?
George B.: No, thanks.
Condie R.: You want Kofi?
George B.: No.
Condie R.: You don't want Kofi.
George B.: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk. And then get me the U.N.
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N.
Condie R.: Kofi?
George B.: Milk! Will you please make the call?
Condie R.: And call who?
George B.: Who is the guy at the U.N?
Condie R.: Hu is the guy in China.
George B.: Will you stay out of China?!
Condie R.: Yes, sir.
George B.: And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the U.N.
Condie R.: Kofi.
George B.: All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone.
Condie R. (into phone): Rice, here.
George B.: Rice? Good idea. And a couple of egg rolls, too. Maybe we should send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East.

[With apologies to Abbott and Costello--"Who's on First?"]

Re:Topic rang an ancient bell...

[khayman]

He
It was a long time since I laughed loud at the computer. Thanks for that comment.

Btw, I am in Taiwan now, negotiating in which Taiwanese-owned factory in China to put production.

Re:Copyright Laws

[Bobvanvliet]

And getting affordable products with IBM quality (that were always produced over there anyway) from an increasingly capitalist country is a bad thing how exactly?

Stupid govt. DOH!

[Anonymous Coward]

There is nothing in the PeeCee division of IBM that might harm the USA that China doesn't already have.

Sell them* the Panama Canal, no-problemo! Let IBM get a foot in the door in China? For anyone who has bothered to read the details of the deal, IBM will make out like a bandit and USA will be in a better position to spy on the Chinese!

*Surprised it's not being called Wampo-Canal by now.

Totally

[t_allardyce]

Frankly im outraged, I think everyone here needs to write to their congressman or something. Also I have absolutely no idea what the story is about, thats the most confusing paragraph ive ever read. IBM PC's are national secuirty risks? Blocking sales? Something about communist China? I wish the government was this concerned with oil company ownership.

Maybe now Apple

[cocoacow]

will buy it, and turn into an even bigger player then ever before. That's what I got my fingers crossed on. Although it would be tight to have everything become PPC, the way it looks like it's going.

The part I didn't get

[andy1307]

They are concerned Lenovo employees might be used to conduct industrial espionage.

Are they worried about Lenovo employees(presumably Chinese) spying on the companies they sell laptops too? for e.g., if a laptop from a defense contractor is sent to a Lenovo facility for servicing, are they afraid the Lenovo employees might get some information they shouldn't be getting? Aren't IBM laptops serviced by third parties anyway? Where exactly is the potential for industrial espionage?

Re:PC competition for the I-Mini MAC?

[Jarlsberg]

This is insightful? It isn't even on topic. And the anon posted this very message in a mini mac thread a few days back. ;)

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[af_robot]

Now these failures aren't one or two machines. These are all machines. They all fail that way.

Well, I don't believe you. We have an IBM service center in our company I can judge personally how many failures were caused by IBM's "bad design".
IBM PCs had only ONE critical problem - leaking capacitors on desktop motherboards, but it is not IBM fault - many vendors also had that problem.

btw: In some cases IBM service centers can repair your failed PC's under ECA even if it is out of a warranty. Leaked capacitors usually fixed under ECA.

Glad to see...

[op00to]

That the neocons are big fans of the free market.

Gee, can't even come up with a decent reason

[2Bits]

I mean, all these smart people in all those 11 agencies, and still couldn't come up with a decent reason to block the deal?

If I were to do industrial espionage, why would I buy a PC unit? There's not much research in that. I'd go for the chip unit, the mainframe unit, or something. PC unit for espionage? Give me a fucking break. It's just assembly line, mostly, for whatever sake!

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[JayTeeUK]

So much for "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".

#2?

[Savage-Rabbit]

Hardly #2, but the USA is nevertheless waking up to the fact that China is catching up technologically at a much faster rate than anybody had expected. Soon enough the Chinese will have reached a point where they can threaten the USA militarily using Chinese developed technology based on technological transfer from Russia, W-Europe and the USA it self. Greedy corporations outourced work to China and with they exported the technology China needed to develop better and better military hardware. This sort of a panic reaction is simply a belated reckonition of this development. Expect the Chinese to field Submarines, Tanks and a Stealth aircraft capable of competing with the F-35 within the next 20 years or so and its surface fleet will become a serious challenge to the USN in the Pacific.

Re:#2?

[scapermoya]

China isn't gunning for our spot as the military superpower, they are gunning for our spot as the economic one. They have 1.3 billion people, with the right organization their GNP will outstrip that of the US in the next 50-75 years, easily.

Re:#2?

[bluGill]

Don't forget to factor in China's strict one child per family policy (It has relaxed a little in recent years, but not much). Most of the people in China now will be dead in 50 years, and they did not have enough kids to come close to replacing them. Their population is expanding because modern medical care has allowed their current old people to live longer, not because they are having many children.

China's GDP will expand, no doubt about it. However I question their ability to get as Large as the US in that time, because their population does not support it.

Re:#2?

[Eminence]

• Expect the Chinese to field Submarines, Tanks and a Stealth aircraft capable of competing with the F-35 within the next 20 years or so and its surface fleet will become a serious challenge to the USN in the Pacific.

Don't forget their space program. More ambitious than the lazy NASA, not no mention ESA.

(I wonder how many young Chinese are wasting their lives on MMORPG crap?)

But US has something China doesn't - intellectual diversity and society (still) open to immigrants.

Tin Foil Hats

[The Journalist]

Why exactly is the government wearing the tin foil hat?

Oh wait...

where are you sources?

[cheekyboy]

Dude, TheKidWho (knows nothing)

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/reserves.htm
http: //mwhodges.home.att.net/debt.htm

Foreigners now own more and more of America - - about "$8 trillion of U.S. financial assets, including 13% of all stocks and 24% of corporate bonds", according to Bridgewater Associates. According to the Federal Government Debt Report, they also own 40% of Treasury bonds & bills. Additionally, they own real estate and factories.

Even your own silly US DOLLAR is not owned by the govt, but by the federal reserver PRIVATE CORPORATION which is composed of 12 central banks, mostly foreign.

Your sweet ride is over.

Re:where are you sources?

[Tassach]

According to the Federal Government Debt Report, they also own 40% of Treasury bonds & bills. Additionally, they own real estate and factories.

What do they own, really? Paper. A debt is a promise to repay -- one which can be broken. A physical asset can be seized under eminent domain, nationalized, or otherwise confiscated by government fiat.

So you want to buy this factory? Sure, we'll take your money. Here's a piece of paper which says you own it. Then, a few years later we'll say "So sorry, but we're taking the factory under eminent domain. We'll be nice and buy it back at 10 cents on the dollar. You have a problem with that? Take it up with those nice young gentlemen sitting over there in those tanks...

INTEL has sites in USA

[cheekyboy]

Sites within the United States are located in Chandler, Ariz.; Santa Clara, Calif.; Colorado Springs, Colo.; Hudson, Mass.; Rio Rancho, N.M.; Hillsboro, Ore.; and Dupont

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/manufacturin g/ manufacturing_qa.htm

I can turn $13b into $16b easy!!!

[cheekyboy]

They could have put $13billion into Euros 12 months ago, with the dollar dropping 20% they could have made a hell lot more, but its more fun to run a company than watch a spread sheet.

But what else is IBM going to do with $13b? Make an OLED factory? they already have access to large amounts of cash, its not like they CANT FIND $13b, they can.

Re:I can turn $13b into $16b easy!!!

[Geoff-with-a-G]

Yes, and while you're at it, they could have played roulette and put it all on black. Then it would be 26 billion!

Re:I can turn $13b into $16b easy!!!

[Lord Ender]

Don't take financial advice from this gold spammer. Anyone who thinks gold is a good investment is a sucker. If fiat money becomes valueless (which will never happen), it will be more useful to own a shotgun than to own a bar of gold.

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[ramunas]

Never had any problem with my 8 year old IBM PC...

Uh..lots

[Renegrade]

> Btw: How many "laptop problems" did you have with ThinkPads?!

Oh, I dunno.. it destroyed $300 batteries regularly, it had too many IRQs for all devices to be enabled at once, it had this ugly little cli--er, eraser thingy in the middle of the keyboard which was useless and required adjustment every few days, the BIOS setup looked like some 1983 CGA game for retarded five year olds, and was about as useful, it was twice the size and half the power as the equivalent Toshiba model of the time... Oh yah, and the drivers which when downloaded, had to be extracted onto a _floppy_ disk.

IBM Thinkpad 600E U2426. All the crap you never wanted, and then some. (Oh yah, the model number is obtuse and there are a trillion useless variants to this useless heap of garbage)

I should have bought that Compaq instead. It was the same price, and still runs to this day.

Oh well. At least IBM still offers downloads on legacy products like that, even if they are really stupid to install and highly broken.

The 'highly broken' part is a universal standard for the PC industry anyways though, which IBM created with that crappy machine they threw together in a drunken binge on a weekend in 1981 -- Unsharable interrupts? Static OS structures? Segmented, 20-bit memory? Processor-driven I/O? How could you do this with a motto of "Think"?? Or maybe that's a typo, maybe it's.. DRINK??

Remember kids, alcohol, like smoking, is _not cool_.

Food

[pommiekiwifruit]

You do grow food in America - and sell it to China. They have a lot of people there, so your wheat is important to them.

Re:Food

[cyberformer]

Not anymore. US agricultural land is rapidly being turned into suburban sprawl. This year, the US will become a net importer of food.

Of course, China's growing population means that it too needs to import an increasing amount of food. The same is true of most countries. That's a big problem, which will soon mean a lot of starving people.

But.... But....

[iamatlas]

"What do you mean I'm fired? No one ever got fired for choosing IBM..."

Re:But.... But....

[niks42]

Hey, the reason we are all so fascinated with pension plans here in IBM is that we all feel that much closer to an enforced retirement than our ages would seem to indicate.

Re:But.... But....

[Johnny5000]

"What do you mean I'm fired? No one ever got fired for choosing IBM..."

We're changing the saying to "hardly anyone gets fired for choosing IBM."

National Security Advisor failures?

[ka9dgx]

We get all picky about who owns the undersea cables, but don't give a shit about who controls the systems that allow remote unaudited phone taps... typical, just fucking typical.

There was a company that made rare-earth magnets in Valparaiso, Indiana. (Necessary for small strong servos in, oh... missles...) That got sold to China...

inconsistent, arbitrary law enforcement breeds contempt.

If we had a compentent National Security Council, none of this would have happened, nor would it have been allowed to be politicized.

--Mike--

Re:National Security Advisor failures?

[olddotter]

I don't know why this is moderated Funny. The concept is very serious. Perhaps its better to laugh than cry :-)!

Nothing on the link to the phone taps company told me it was controled by foreign interests.

China's interest in U.S. debt service

[amightywind]

China can always threaten to stop buying up US debt. That would mean a large spike in interest rates in order to make buying US debt more attractive to investors.

Sure, China could stop buying US debt. U.S. interest rates would rise and economic growth in the U.S. would slow. But this would threaten China's massive exports of rubber dog shit. Since the Chinese regime's goal is full employment, they won't do anything to threaten that. President Bush and Vice-President Cheney have been excellent stewards of the U.S. economy.

Re:China's interest in U.S. debt service

[10Ghz]

President Bush and Vice-President Cheney have been excellent stewards of the U.S. economy.

Humungous trade-deficit, plummetting dollar, humungous budget-deficit... If that's "excellent", I'm afraid to know what would "terrible" be like...

I read the statements and...

[9mind]

Wonder if this is the same slashdot crowd that

A) Talks about China censorship in relation to Google
B) Doesn't think that the government may have another reason besides the obvious clap-trap for blocking the sale

With everything going on in the news, does anyone believe they would block the sale of IBM over something as trivial as industrial espionage? Many of you have pointed out the plethora of other companies that are based overseas, but yet fail to see that something else maybe behind the "rumored" blocked sale of IBM to Lenovo. Take of the blinders and take a look around.

Re:Minimum wage

[dremspider]

Last time I checked Mcdonalds is hiring at $7 bucks an hour...... That is $1.85 over minimum wage. I have yet to see a job that is minimum wage in a very long time. Minimum wage is a bad idea to begin with (though the time it was created it was a good idea). It has two major flaws:

1. People in different areas need different amounts of money to survive. I.E. my cousin lives in an affluent area right on the border of philly. McDonalds pays about 9 bucks an hour there... It is insane, until you see the price of food/gas/housing. I live about 2 hours from philly, McDonalds pays about $7 an hour. The point: If you live in a really low cost of living area, then $5.15 may be more then enough. And if McDonalds can't afford to pay their employees $5.15 an hour they will be forced to hire less employees, this is the whole supply and demand of labor concept.

2. Minimum wage tends to help inflation which is never a good thing.

Could msft be behind this?

[walterbyrd]

The move by IBM to somewhat re-invent the PC, starting in China, is msft's worst nightmare. A move like that could eventually make linux a serious contender against windows. Let's face it, right now linux has about 2% of the desktop market, and is largly ignored by major software developers like intuit, adobee, and autodesk.

Msft is certainly not above abusing the USA legal, or political system, in order to maintain msft's market position.

Re:Could msft be behind this?

[westlake]

Explain to me how exporting OEM Windows systems in massive numbers hurts Microsoft.

In the real world, Windows PCs have become so powerful and so cheap that no one gives a damn about the "Microsoft Tax" and Steve Jobs has to swallow his pride and release a $500 MiniMac to remain competitive.

Re:Could msft be behind this?

[walterbyrd]

It has been speculated that IBM sold off it's x86 business in order to get away from any msft entanglement. IBM may be planning to start selling linux PowerPC - at least in China. China has made it clear that China wants to move away from windows.

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[ProppaT]

I call BS on this one, especially the ThinkPad statement. From first hand experience I can tell you that the ThinkPad's the most solid laptop on the market. I wouldn't say the best, but by far the most solid/bug free laptop you'll find.

I think someone had a couple bad experiences with IBM and has decided to make up stories now...

CFIUS / The Global Crossing example...

[Petronius]

The CFIUS is a joke. Although Hutchinson Whampoa never acquired GC, Singapore Technologies Telemedia (ST Telemedia) [another foreign company] did... Richard Perle was hired by the GC board to lobby the transaction with the Bush administration.
Bush approved the sale of the one of the largest U.S. fiberoptics network to a foreign entity in the middle of a war.

Long Term cost of devaluation

[alexhmit01]

The US has NEVER defaulted on a debt payment (post Civil War, might have during that). One of the smart things Clinton did during the government shut-down was violate all sorts of government accounting rules to get the debt payments out.

As a result, US Debt is considered 0-risk. It is the ONLY debt instrument in the world that is considered zero risk. Even other government debt has a small implicit risk premium in it.

Right now, the US raises money at no risk premium. If the US defaulted or increased the money supply (which would cause massive inflation and force the markets to devalue its currency... devaluation as policy requires a peg, normally to the dollar), the would cause the US to start paying a risk premium.

All of a sudden, you would have 10%-15% inflation from oversupply of money, and the US risk premium going up to 5%, for example, and now government bonds pay 15%-20%... How much do you think that your mortgage needs to be now? 25%, 30%?

Basically, the US CAN get out of its mess with massive printing of money, but the results would be catastrophic.

HOWEVER, your comment about the bank is 100% on, and I believe it is the current financial strategy. Continue to buy products from China for "worthless" sheets of paper (paying 4%-4.25% interest), then slowly increase the money supply and inflation to 4.5% or 5%, and inflate your way out of the mess. All of a sudden, the money is devaluing faster than your interest payments, tax revenues go up, and debt repayment is less painful.

Many countries played games like this, but it is normally to buy capital goods and other means of production... we've used it for consumer spending, which is why we may be in a bind.

Mild inflation is nice, but reasonable (5%) inflation) wouldn't kill us, and might be a way out of our mess.

Alex

Re:Long Term cost of devaluation

[ThousandStars]

As a result, US Debt is considered 0-risk. It is the ONLY debt instrument in the world that is considered zero risk. Even other government debt has a small implicit risk premium in it.

No debt is "0-risk." US Debt is widely (and accurately, in my opinion) considered the safest investment in the world. Even it, though, carries risk, however small that risk may be.

Re:Long Term cost of devaluation

[Artemis]

US debt is considered 0-risk financially because there is no risk premium paid on US debt in the international market. It's a financial term, not an English one.

Invasion of Taiwan

[Wooky_linuxer]

Well, they could always argue Taiwan government was producing WMD. After they invade it and found nothing, they would... hummm be re-elected?

How to get CFIUS to block off-shoring....

[olddotter]

So does anyone have good ideas on how to get CFIUS to block off-shoring deals because of National Security issues? Long term this is a REAL threat to American Security. If we lose our technical edge we lose the technical military edge Rumsy is so proud of (for all the wrong reasons).

Re:The facility in North Carolina is really strang

[captn_atom]

Not anymore. I'm a contractor there and it sucks a bit one. Three pay cuts in four years with another one on the way. I'd rather be digging ditches or shoveling manure than having come this hellhole every day. ):

Bread and Cricuses

[BugMaster ChuckyD]

its just the circuses (sports, reality shows, celebrity gossip etc.) giving people bread would be "socialism".

How do you know?

[therblig]

During the rant, you said, "I should have bought that Compaq instead. It was the same price, and still runs to this day."

If you didn't buy the Compaq, how do you know it still runs? My anecdotal evidence is no better than anyone else's on Slashdot, but I have had a lot of experience with Dell, Toshiba, IBM, and Compaq laptops. The IBM's and Toshibas have been the best, and the Compaqs have been the worst, and the Dells are somewhere in the middle.

Re:How do you know?

[Renegrade]

> If you didn't buy the Compaq, how do you know it still runs?

A friend got one. We had a supplier in the office who was selling them. He bought that, and I bought the Thudpad. The Compaq works fine, doesn't have any driver or IRQ issues, and is still running on the original stock battery. It's quite old now, too, been running for the past 5 years.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/milnoc/TP600Battery/

I find it funny that this comes up in the first page in a search for "Thinkpad 600". Not 'Thinkpad +"battery problem"' .. Just 600. Sort of funny that the laptop's PRIMARY SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK. (There was also a slashdot article at one point in the past about this very problem)

I mean, a laptop without a battery is just a low performance desktop in a small, badly designed package.

Re:The facility in North Carolina is really strang

[chiph]

What with the usual IBM internal security guys running around in dark suits & shades, and now the goverment guys running around in dark suits & shades, how can a conspiracy theorist keep them separate?

I mean, obviously, the goverment guys have the tattoo on the forehead, but waving a UV light at people is not the way to go about making new friends. Especially when both groups are packing Sig-Sauers.

I thought to ask them about which is better -- eastern style BBQ or ketchup-based BBQ (thinking that the IBM guys would know to say eastern, since they've been in the area longer), but it seems that some of the goverment guys were onto that little trick (or just naturally liked eastern style, which I suppose is possible too.)

So, how can you tell them apart at slightly-greater-than conversational distance? Just curious.

Chip H.

Security??? Hah!

[sam_van]

Having worked on the main IBM RTP (Research Triangle Park) NC campus several years ago, I can assure you that the security you encountered was out of the ordinary. When I worked there, my co-workers and I tried to outdo each other at the drive by security station at the entrance. The guards were supposed to check badges, but I got waved through after flashing business cards, playing cards, and even a pack of cigarettes once. Getting into the buildings was a little more difficult, but if you weren't too smelly, all you had to do was pat your pockets and look forlorn: someone would badge you in post-haste.

The government alwas is a few steps behind

[kurt555gs]

We are talking about generic PC's with Intel chips running Windows.

In this day of Blue-Ray DVD's G5 chips, and the return of *nix this is like stopping the sale of VCR's or 8 track tape players

National Security?, how about stopping flat head engine technology from going to China?

Cheers

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[Warpedcow]

Maybe all of yours fail that way, but I have a T20, an old P3-800 Netvista, and a P3-550 300PL in my office that all work fine. In fact, there are literally thousands of these old machines where I work and they all work fine.

Re:The facility in North Carolina is really strang

[reames]

So, how can you tell them apart at slightly-greater-than conversational distance? Just curious.

"Carolina Eastern BBQ" = Vinegar based pork - just the color of the meat

then you have ketchup-based, which is distinctively red, and mustard-based, which is yellow. Pretty simple.
And if you're in the carolinas, BBQ = Pork, not chicken.

So who stole the W88?

[emil]

If the Chinese are such great people and trustworthy business partners, then why would they steal a W88?

The Chinese are large, powerful, and Machiavellian. China has no qualms in pushing us to the brink of war if it suits their desires.

I expect my government to be extremely cautious in dealing with China. They are the most dangerous situation we face today - our Arabic problems are a sideshow by comparison.

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[Txiasaeia]

Bullshit. I had a Thinkpad 350X manufactured sometime in the early 90's that finally, *finally* died in 2002. IBM PCs are scrap as soon as they leave the factory? Yeah, I don't think so.

Wrong.

[emil]

Two societies - one governed by The Little Red Book, the other by the Declaration of Independence.

Which one do you think will work?

Link to original Bloomberg article

[Mr.Sharpy]

This Bloomberg article has a little more substance than the Xinhua version. There's a little more in there on the espionage aspects that Xinhua left out.

Let's Just Say

[Master of Transhuman]

that Bill Gates complaints about OSS people being "communists" may have been related to IBM's sale of the PC Division to Lenovo as an end-run around Microsoft to penetrate the Chinese PC market - which is obviously potentially far larger than the US market.

Not to mention that the Chinese are likely to be running Linux rather than Windows...

And we all know how Gates has the ear of the Bush Administration...

Business as usual in the US of A...

If you can't compete, bring in the cops...

Here

[phorm]

The most durable laptops seems to be the Dells and the IBMs. Some of the Toshibas are still kicking, and most of the older Acers started dying quite awhile back.

Re:Here

[homer_ca]

What I like about Dell is the warranty service. You can get 3 years of next business day onsite repair for a pretty reasonable price, and some plans cover accidental damage too. The cases have a cheap, flimsy plastic feel to them unlike the built-like-a-tank Thinkpads, but they're durable enough considering the treatment we put them through. We get our share of lemons, but they're always good about warranty repairs.

Fortune

[Doc Ruby]

CFIUS say "No".

No cars in America?!?!?

[papa248]

We don't build cars in America

The US builds more cars, light trucks and SUVs than anyone else in the world, and I am happily employed by that industry. I won't by any means say that they are any better in terms of quality or cost-effectiveness (mostly due to the UAW) but we still build the most.

Re:No cars in America?!?!?

[Non Est Tanti]

That's right. In addition, Toyota, Honda, and other foreign makers build cars in the US. But you probably already know that.

Re:How to get CFIUS to block off-shoring....

[walterbyrd]

Pffft. This is not exactly a supercomputer we're talking about here. China already has computers far more powerful than the PC that IBM is considering.

This may a matter of msft using political influence to control the competition.

espionage aspects?

[walterbyrd]

What expionage aspects?

Re:espionage aspects?

[Mr.Sharpy]

Here:

Members of the Committee on Foreign Investments in the United States, including the Justice Department and Department of Homeland Security, worry that Chinese operatives might use an IBM facility in North Carolina to engage in industrial espionage, using stolen technologies for military purposes, said the people, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Here:

In 2003, Global Crossing Ltd. was forced to abandon a planned sale of its telecommunications network to Hutchison- Whampoa Ltd., the Hong Kong-based conglomerate controlled by billionaire Li Ka-shing. The Defense Department and others on the committee refused to approve the transaction on national-security grounds.

and Here:

In its negotiations with the committee, IBM has discussed the possibility of implementing measures to address the security concerns over the facility, which is located in Research Triangle Park, the people familiar with the matter said.

The U.S. recently sanctioned eight Chinese companies for exporting technology to Iran for use in a missile program, the New York Times reported Jan. 18. The newspaper said it was ``unclear'' whether the technology was ``dual-use.''

In the near future....

[glrotate]

Let me guess, you know zilch about rate spreads and the yield curve?

Put yourself into the real world

[glrotate]

Instead of throwing out econobabble why don't you look at the actual numbers? If, as you said, the world was giving up on dollar denominated assets then interest rates would be rising. High rates would be needed to attract reluctant buyers. The yield curve would be getting steeper.

Have you been watching interest rates? Obviously not. The 10 year went down(fractionaly) in 2004. Not up, down. If investors were expecting higher short term rates in the future the curve yould be getting steeper. It's getting flatter. Not steeper. Flatter.

So unless you think you're more clever than the 22 TRILLION dollar bond market, you may want to educate yourself on basic interest rate economics.

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[protovirus]

While support for their established systems is excellent, support for their newer systems flat out sucks...

WebSphere support for example.... and even Rational....

China is expected to be the largest economy soon?

[glrotate]

How could I forget something that isn't true? China's GDP is 1.6 trillian. The US's 11 trillion. If China maintains a 7.5 growth indefinately (it can't) and the US only 3.5. It will take 50 years for China to catch up.

Currency Speculation

[sjbe]

China can always threaten to stop buying up US debt.

And do you know what the effect of that would be on China? It's a complicated subject but one of the reasons China keeps such large currency reserves is so they can protect their currency against speculation. China has something around $500 billion in US currency right now. This large reserve helps them maintain their currency's peg to the dollar. Its more complicated than this, but essentially they are taking dollars out of circulation thus increasing demand for dollars (less supply -> price increases). This makes a dollar "worth" more, relative to the Renminbi, and makes Chinas exported goods more attractive.

Without a large currency reserve, speculators would be tempted to bet on the currency and China could be forced to float their currency which would cause an instant recession, probably worldwide. Think speculators couldn't do this? George Soros became famous for making $1 billion in a single day by betting on the devaluation of the British pound and forcing the Bank of England to float their currency. In fact speculation is how the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis started. The Thai government had a speculation attack on their currency and were forced to float it, resulting in immediate devaluation and a region-wide financial crisis.

It's not that easy for China to just stop buying dollars. The media tends to paint it as a one sided deal but China is just as dependant on the US, if not more so. Without the US buying all those goods, China's economy goes in the toilet.

Re:China is expected to be the largest economy soo

[flabbergast]

You and I have very different opinions on what constitutes "soon."

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[jlapier]

I haven't had a lot of personal experience with IBM PC's since the early-mid 90's, but one of my biggest headaches recently has been 2 or 3 year old 20gb IBM Deskstars grinding to a half left and right....

Re:China is expected to be the largest economy soo

[glrotate]

50 years is long enough for just about anything to happen. Nuclear War, Revolution, Global Warming/Cooling, Asteroid, Cold Fusion, Nanotechnology, so in economic terms it's long term, meaning it's pointless to make predictions that far out.

Re:MICROSOFT ought to be left alone

[DickBreath]

The US Government** is trying to prevent IBM and a foreign company from gaining too much*** market power.

Footnotes
**please note that the US Government is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft corporation
***the term "too much" is defined as: any commercial advantage that works against Microsoft's interests. For instance, if Microsoft can no longer blackmail IBM over their PC business, or if Microsoft is unable to blackmail a foreign PC maker over their choice of OS.

OT: Your Sig

[Abcd1234]

You should probably credit the Dead Milkmen for that... I was curious where it came from and had to look it up in Google. :)

Re:OT: Your Sig

[Fulcrum of Evil]

You should probably credit the Dead Milkmen for that

No can do. 120 char limit is teh suck.

Re:OT: Your Sig

[Abcd1234]

Lovely. I assume the sig code lets you enter a >120 character sig, but then proceeds to truncate it? Gotta love that...

Re:OT: Your Sig

[David Rolfe]

Slashdot must be a Cash Cow for OSDN. It must generate some non zero amount of money with ad views, presumably more than the bandwidth costs. Then you've got three dudes to inject it with volunteer donated content to keep the ad cycle going. Finally, you spend zero money on development.

1. Write some code in 1993
2. Get a huge following with volunteer support
3. Sell ads
4. ???? (whatever this step is, it doesn't involve improvement or development)
5. Profit!

I mean, hell, it's 2005 and the html is still all wacky, and slashcode is still all kludgey. Wouldn't CSS pay for itself?!

Sheesh. :-D

Wow, are you off

[charnov]

Don't believe the BS, for the last 20 years China has and still is listed as our number one threat in the world. They are the only other super-power left and they are deeply antagonistic towards several of our interests. If we are not in a nasty war with them over Taiwan in the next 15 years, I'll eat one of my testicles. Back when it was part of my job to review security concerns such as this for the DoD, outsourcing and sale of assets concerning strategic information or infrastructure was a quick "hell, no". We have gone back to the "no matter what we are the best and no one can hurt us" mentality of the Reagan years. Ughh...idiots.

Re:Wow, are you off

[Dumbush]

if your so call "interest" involve empire building, resource hoarding, and "freedumb" spreading(waging wars base on misinformation), then it is understandable that other countries might not respect such selfishness and would perfer to be left alone

The dangerous IBM PC unit

[poot_rootbeer]

IBM PC unit?

Frankly, I don't see how a 25-year-old 8088-based computer would present much of a threat of industrial espionage.

Well, if they added the second 5 1/4" drive and 110 baud acoustic-coupler modem, maybe.

Republican paranoia!

[wshwe]

This nothing more than Republican paranoia!

Under capitalism, other countries are enemy

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Thanks to a quirk of capitalism being an *extreme* emphasis on competition, governments that embrace capitalism tend to quite rightly see other nations as enemies. The reason why is simple- economic war has now arrived at the point where it can do as much, or more, damage to a country than conventional or nuclear war can. Want to truly destroy a capitalist economy? Just make sure your workers can live on 1/100th the wages of that capitalistic country, and manipulate your currency to stay at that level. Within 50 years, a large majority of the manufacturing jobs from that country will be yours- and a majority of their population will be retired, disabled, or unemployed.

The Chinese becoming capitalist was the ultimate arrow aimed at the soft underbelly of the United States- and it has achieved it's goal (which is why Social Security is in trouble).

Re:MICROSOFT ought to be left alone

[AstroDrabb]

I am surprised no one modded this up! This is right on the money. Do you think MS had no influence over this decision by the "government"? You can be certain that MS came along and bitched and moaned about this sale.

It is funny though because I remember MS selling their source code to the Chinese government and then claiming during their anti-trust case that they couldn't reveal source code for "national security reasons".

I guess it is OK for the Chinese government to have access to the MS source code, however if anyone else can see it, it would "undermine" national security.

Re:China is expected to be the largest economy soo

[jameszhou2000]

I think you forgot to consider the currency value changes.

HINT: Don't worry about their shoe colour!

[Corellon Larethian]

IBM's proposed US$1.25 billion sale of its personal computer business to Lenovo Group of China may be held up by U.S. regulators over national security concerns, Bloomberg reported. The report, citing unnamed sources "familiar with the matter," said members of the Committee on Foreign Investments in the United States, or CFIUS, were concerned that Lenovo employees might be used to conduct industrial espionage.

This is no different than someone kicking you in the head, and you looking to see what color shoe he's wearing.

So. What color of shoe does China have, Mr. Secretary of the Treasury?

Re:China is expected to be the largest economy soo

[glrotate]

I think you forgot to consider the currency value changes.

No, these are real, id est not nominal, values.

We buy companies that produce expensive craps

[doodler99]

block the deal because of "national security concerns"? because "Lenovo employees might be used to conduct industrial espionage"? on what? on "an IBM facility in North Carolina of the United States"? give me a fucking break! Yes, I am Chinese. We produce cheap craps, we buy companies that produce EXPENSIVE craps, we are garbage collectors. Guess what? the next target will be Microsoft.

where?

[bigposerhead]

where was big brother sixty years ago when ibm was designing computer for the nazis.

Security is an excuse. It's economic protection.

[alienmole]

People who are concerned about losing U.S. jobs are using security as an excuse in this case. There's no more to the story than that.

Re:We can't have no Chinese PCs

[catdevnull]

uh...this was posted as a joke--not flamebait. you moderators ain't got no sense of humor. I'm tellin' W.

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[freedom_india]

WebSphere support for example.... and even Rational....

Are you saying IBM support for WAS or Rational sucks ??? Are you their customer, really?

My employer was a corporate customer of IBM which bought WAS from IBM and their response times were at most 24-hours for onsite support.

Those IBM blue suits rolled up their sleeves and sat with us on Christmas Eve in 2002 to finish configuring Pager support for WAS 4.0.1 on Solaris.

Of course if you are lone ranger who downloaded WAS 4.0 Single Server Trial edition onto a W2K Laptop and expect support...

Re:Copyright Laws

[Bobvanvliet]

Yeah right, because this was easy when all the computer giants were 100% good old yanks. Oh, wait...

Re:The facility in North Carolina is really strang

[unitron]

Say something about how much easier it is to cook the pig over a gas fire instead of pit-cooked over a wood fire. If they offer to stone you for your heresy they're genuine eastern NC residents.

Re:Hidden Agenda ?

[plover]

It wasn't just you. All the IBM DeathStars (especially those made in Hungary) were crap from the moment they hit the assembly line. I had the misfortune of purchasing three (a 45GB and two 60GB) units about two or three years ago, and it took less than 3 months for the first of them to die. When I called the shop I bought it from they offered me a replacement right over the phone. Apparently, 3 months was on the long side of their lifetimes -- half the people had already gotten replacements. It took a bit longer for the other two drives to die, but die they both did.

They were the first pieces of IBM equipment I've owned that were of obvious poor design. Everything before those drives (and that means starting with a 16KB 8088 machine in 1980) has been absolutely rock solid. Sure, I've lost a few drives along the way, but only after years of performance. (Mind you, that was never "stellar" performance, IBM never pushed the performance envelopes of any of their equipement.)

Kind of makes me wonder if those IBM DeathStars were counterfeits. IBM has never tolerated crap-quality equipment before.

At this point...

[anopres]

we should probably just mod the original artical off-topic.

Re:At this point...

[anopres]

Wow, a typo. Could some troll please correct my grammer?