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P2P (More) Legal in France
A reader writes:"A french appeal court ruled yesterday in favour of somebody who downloaded about 500 movies, on the ground that those were private copies, and that he didn't redistributed them, and that a tax was payed on blank media. This sets the huge precedent that P2P is legal over there. For the details, apparently no distinction was made on the method used to download the movies (upload issues) and the famous EUCD directive was even used by the defending lawyer." You'll want the fish for this one, unless you speak French.
I wasnt aware that the civil law legal system france uses relied heavily on precedent...
Viral software licensing is not freedom, it is in fact GNU/Socialism.
That's a seriously cool word. Better than "web surfer" or "'netter". I say we port it to English immediately.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
What happened to the person from whom the movies were downloaded? He/she most certainly WAS distributing them in violation of copyright law.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
wow! Now the US government has even more reason to hate the French. Well, the media here in the US (but on this issue they tend to control things here in the US)
I'm quite sure that if the person had used for example torrents and uploaded even a bit of the file it would have been seen as distributing. It's nothing new that Downloading stuff in for example Finland or Sweden is completly legal. But as soon as you upload any of it, it's illegal.
The guy ( if what he said was true ) is just the last branch on the tree of sharing. If the whatever-AA wants to stop this stuff, they need to cut off some roots or bigger branches.
- I got my free iPod and a free Nintendo DS....why not
Although in this I can see (see me not judging, merely observing) the trend of French trying systematically to piss off America, there is one interesting point - the blank media tax. If people who pay for it are not allowed to download movies and burn them on taxed media, then what is its point?
Well, this makes sense, right, because it's not French music anymore, it's freedom music.
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
I go back and forth on whether a precedent like this is a good thing. For one, yeah, I download things in a hypothetical manner on various peer to peer services. It certainly would be nice to be fully exonerated. It would also force the RIAA and MPAA to rexamine there business models and I think myself and most /.'ers would like the libertarian-anarchist paradise of self distribution and fair prices.
Still, it seems like an exceptionally harsh judgement against the MPAA and RIAA to say that anyone who wants any of their wares can aquire them for free. But, I guess issuing a huge judgement such as this in the USA would be the only way to move us away from record company monopoly and towards fair internet distribution paradise.
All I'm waiting for is an AllofDVD.com
AllofTV.com..
Allof..... heh! it's early
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
They hate you too. Does anybody else think it's ironic somebody bashing the French as "cheese eating surrender monkeys" chooses to post under the name "Anonymous Coward"? I do.
They will never stop until somebody makes the
...but they have legal downloads...hmm, now they seem more tolerable.
This sets the huge precedent that P2P is legal over there.
Not necessarily. It sets a precedent that the downloader isn't doing anything wrong, but I don't think it says anything about the person doing sharing. Note:
on the ground that those were private copies, and that he didn't redistributed(sic) them
So he's fine since he wasn't redistributing, but it sounds like the act of redistributing just might change the outcome of the case in other circumstances.
Exactingly.
This signature is not in the public domain.
gotta love the french :)
The following statement is true
The preceding statement is false
With those US Supreme Court judges most likely opposed to finding Grokster/Kazaa/Morpheus free to operate P2P also so completely opposed to considering European prohibition on capital punishment, this French decision should have no effect. Unless it pisses them off.
--
make install -not war
Very brief:
An IT student was sued by 17 movie companies including all the big names and their French distributors for downloading 488 movies over a period of years. He admitted watching them privately, with one or two friends, and sharing a few copies.
The first court, and the appeal court, rejected a claim by the prosecutor for EUR 5.000 in damages (and 10,000 Euro interests and costs) against the defendant, accepting the defense's argument that under European Union law, all surfers (internaughts!) already pay a tax on blank media, PCs and blank CDs that covers their use of these material as consumers.
The main point was that the student's use of the downloaded movies was personal - the small amount of sharing he did was not enough to classify it as "collective use". I assume that if he had shared the movies further, or shown them to a public audience, he would be liable for damages for those actions.
The charge of "piracy" was essentially thrown out.
Further this ruling would appear to affect all EU countries, though the French case will affect only French law initially - defendants in other countries will be able to refer to the same EU conventions.
(Note that the EU conventions are not law per-se, but all countries agree to implement them in national law, so it comes to the same thing.)
Lastly, this would appear to being EU into line with Canada as regards the legality of downloading media for personal use.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
quote of the day at the bottom of this page
"Kites rise highest against the wind -- not with it. -- Winston Churchill"
hmmm, it seems appropriate
because they have cheap wine, fine women and piracy does not exist! Viva la France!
Never touch an Irish man's Guinness!@#
Private use is Fair Use.
Copyright has been designed to protect the publishing and distribution rights so to make a copy for private use is "fair dealing"(UK) or "fair use"(US), the court clearly understood that this enhances the cultural richness of France.
What is illegal is making counterfeit copies for gain or public distribution then you hurt the copyright holder.
Now people listen to music and everyone listens to more music than they own, this encourages them to make more music and buy more music.
Copyright was always intended to enhance the cultural richness of the Public Domain by encouraging publication and creation.
It was never intended to create or support monopolistic cartels Practices.
The French are gonna face pressure from the US on this. This will be fuelled by the love-hate relationship the French and Americans have at present. P2P zealots, do not rejoice yet. You could set-up an NX server from NoMachine in France, download whatever you want and send it to GMail's GB storage, then get down to your US based system and download the "goods".
im not familiar with "the famous EUCD directive" - is it anything like the chewbacca defence?
Oh, yeah, this will go over big in sharing communities. Only the leeches are legal. Pretty funny of you ask me.
(I suppose he could have gotten them off oc the usenet, but then how did he get caught?)
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
P2P networks don't provide for downloading-only scenarios (i.e. client-server). Thats what peer-to-peer actually means!
P2P clients can and do upload file chunks as you are downloadiung them, even assuming you aren't sharing anything else.
Hey that's not true, they won the war against themselves!
Never touch an Irish man's Guinness!@#
The same argument would not in the US because we do not have the media tax, except on "Music CD-Rs" required by consumer cd copiers.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
The problem really is the borders of the "virtual world" and the real world. It's not an easy problem, but people will keep stepping on each others toes until some agreement or equilibrium is reached. Look at China. Firewalls a lot of stuff off. France, just said it's ok to cpoy. The US.. don't get me started about the haphazardness of the US in this. Unless countries start disconnecting from each other, this isn't a presedent towards much . The problem existed in the days of BBSs, but it was easier to deal with legally as we were bound my area codes. Made it a lot easier. Now, we are more unbound than ever. It's an all new ballcourt.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Wow for a site mostly populated by nerds I'm surprised no-one has raised this:
There can be no distinction between uploading and downloading via P2P. There is no client-server relationship (thats what peer-to-peer means!).
Even if you don't make anything else available for sharing, chunks of the file you are currently downloading can and do get shared as you are downloading it.
There is no mechanism to prevent this, therefore you are potentially always uploading just by downloading.
Should I move there?
...
On one hand, it's nice to see a good ruling for courts.
On the other hand, it's France.
Maaaan, this is a real head scratcher
Umm..where have you been lately? The US just rolled over two countries in the last 4 years. That's two victories alone.
You need to try harder next time.
Well, from the way my anti-Frenchbashing comments got similarly modded down, I'd say the mods are mostly of the opinion that antifrancism as well as antiantifrancism are both offtopic. I can kinda see their point, but had to take the side nobody ever takes - plus I just like the French, they aren't afraid to think for themselves.
And I think the French judge was right on in this decision. The tax having already been paid, the *AA's were just trying to make more money and scare normal downloaders. There, I said something on topic.
The flamebait mod was probably because there's considerably more in the military history of the French than that bigoted post made out. I mean, you could say almost the exact same thing about Poland, but you won't see anywhere near the amount of anti-Polish prejudice in America that you will of the anti-French variety. Any country that's in Europe has been invaded a shitton of times, Germany and England included. That answer your question?
They will never stop until somebody makes the
So now that there is a precident for downloading could it be argued that if only part of a file was uploaded then they are not technically distributing anything as what they have distributed is unitelligable data and can't be reconstructed without the rest of the file? :-)
If everyone just distributed a portion of a file and just that portion, is that person guilty of redistributing it? All that would be required is that different people have different parts of the file that they share. I'm not a laywer so there are probably hideous flaws in this but hey, it might be worth asking! If this worked then uploading and downloading suddenly becomes entirely legal (at least in France anyway!).
Warning, comments may not have been passed by the sanity department of my brain.
He must have downloaded a few movies from the wrong sharer (i.e. copyright enforcer). But if those files were offered for public download (to trap the unwary), how can they be illegal. Hey, you offered them. Why am I in trouble for taking what you freely offered?
Something is missing in this story so far, and I really would be interested in hearing what it is.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
War is still on going in those two countries.
Never touch an Irish man's Guinness!@#
None of this absolves the person serving the files, since he is not authorized to reproduce the works at any rate.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
I'm guilty. But tell me, why do you think it is that so many people are more anti-French than anti-other EU countries?
I couldn't agree more............
"No one is more miserable than the person who wills everything and can do nothing." -Emperor Claudius 10 BC - AD 54
That meme has just propagated incredibly well, helped along by the mainstream American media as well as by some French people who choose to play into it's hands. The French are just the people that it's acceptable to hate on an irrational basis today. In the past that group has included blacks, jews, homosexuals, women, and today, France and teenagers. To paraphrase John Lennon, France is the nigger of the world.
They will never stop until somebody makes the
This is why the RIAA and MPAA always sue Uploaders as these people are publishing works.
Copyright was never intended to stop people making Private Copies - it was intended to stop counterfeiting, republishing or "pirating" of works.
Radio was harrased by an RIAA like Cartel which wanted extortionate liscensing fees in its early days until Congress passed a blanket liscense which would equate to a blank media tax.
Interestingly radio pays it fees to a body that represents the Authors of the original works not the singers of songs, so the Songwriter gets paid by radio play not the band.
The RIAA is happy because radio promotes music which sells CD's - "Fair Use" allows taping from the Radio, for personal use.
Downloading music is just request radio, it promotes cultural richness as so much more than the standard pop-pap is available.
Streaming Web Radio is alreay covered by a blanket liscensing scheme similar to Broadcast Radio, why is P2P so different?
The Music Industry does not like P2P because it does not control it, they know it sells more CD's, just not the CD's they want to sell.
The RIAA do not represent artists they represent the Industry and woe betide those who fail to see the differnece.
Government Enforced Monopolies and Cartels do not increase cultural richness, they do not distribute money well, it is not a free market process.
The RIAA and MPAA Blackmail artists by owning the means of production & distribution, they do not pay well, they do not allow artists freedom if they can possibly help it.
It is the Long Tail which is Culturally Rich.
Thanks God for Lawmakers who are not in the pocket of Industry.
These People want to remove the right of first sale, I mean how valuable will your collectors edition DRM'ed first edition i-tunes download be in 25 years time compared with say a first Pressing White Album?
...now I can't badmouth the French for yet another dumb-ass decision.
Basing a decision on the fact that people are already being taxed for 'illegal use' of blank media (whether they do so or not) and the fact that he did not re-share the data is perfectly reasonable.
I have long argued that in places where blank media is taxed and awarded to the various copyright consortiums should either be lifted or that consumers should be immune to prosecution for being in possession of 'personal data copies' of any given media. The tax is based on the fact of presumed guilt (that's like spanking your children based on the reality that you probably didn't catch them doing *everything* bad... or how about a mandatory year in prison for anyone who owns a gun under the assumption they will certainly use the weapon to commit a crime.)
But giving the people a level of legal immunity based on the fact that they have already been 'punished' for making copies of copyrighted works without permission is a very novel result. I wonder, then, if the media groups will rethink their 'blank media tax' in order to strengthen the prosecutability of other copyright violations?
Oh wait, I'm an American.. 'screw France'.. but wait this is good 'go France'. arrgh!
All kidding aside, this could be a good use of the evil WTO's reciprocal commerce laws..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
From the article:
"The main point was that the student's use of the downloaded movies was personal - the small amount of sharing he did was not enough to classify it as "collective use""
By law, French movies will have to account for at least 40% of all movies stolen.
What's going on here?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
It's called a "joke". The parent is obviously making fun of the "freedom fries" name, and is not really exhibiting francophobia of any kind.
Really, folks; before you hit the "Moderate" button, hit yourself with a clue-stick first.
English press release from French Association of Audionautes (L'Association Des Audionautes)
"The Court based its decision on the article L-122-5 of the French Intellectual Property Code stating that 'authors can't forbid copies or reproductions that are only intented for the private use of the copyist.'"
English translation of that law
IANAFL (I am not a French lawyer), but this seems to run counter to previous rulings there. In the U.S., the Supreme Court would likely intercede in a situation like this, but the French Cour de Cassation -- the only higher court than the Cours d'Appel -- can, as Jean-Baptiste explained on FreeCulture.org's Discuss list, "only decide on procedural problems or legal interpretation, not on legal qualification. As we say, 'Cassation is judge of law and not judge of facts' and this case is a matter of facts and not a matter of law..."
Close, but it was a score draw.
The Supreme Court has cited international rulings recently in both Lawrence v. Texas (which overturned sodomy laws) and the more recent case (can't remember the name) which overturned the death penalty for minors. I wonder if this ruling will play a role in the upcoming arguments and decision in the Grokster case...
This makes no sense at all. Not everything that anyone does on this planet is done to either please or piss off America.
You just strengthened me in my idea that the majority of Americans have no idea about what is going on in the rest of the world. It scares me.
... if you count in plans to have ISP subscriptions taxed as well.
Anything you do can get you slashdotted, including nothing.
Not here in the US, since we do not have the lousy media tax anyway.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Bittorrent has an interesting impact on that equation, because it makes the relationship between uploading and downloading explicit. If I start the client, get the file, have a share ratio of one, and sign off, then how many new copies of the file exist because of my actions? Well, if I hadn't joined, the people who got the file from me would have gotten it from the people I got it from instead. Thus, by my actions exactly one new copy of the file exists: mine.
I don't know if it stands up legally, but morally and practically, the only thing I did was to make a single copy. That's it. Makes it kind of hard to support those $5,000 damages figures for a single file, doesn't it?
From the summary:
This sets the huge precedent that P2P is legal over there.
P2P is legal everywhere. Downloading movies is what landed this guy in court. The method used is irrelevant.
Perhaps the submitter meant to highlight the possible point that a P2P user was not held liable for people using his PC to download copyrighted material from - but even then it is still different from the submission text.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
will trade 50 gmail invites for shell account access. Server must be physically located in France or other progressive forward thinking county.
Gee, I would have thought that France would have surrendered to the RIAA's demands!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
It is illegal to expose security flaws in software...
But you can download all you like for free....
Hmmm.... Not sure how to feel on this one.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Do you really think this ruling will stick? Come on, the movie industry is just as rapacious in France than in the USA (well actually no... but rapacious enough). If this ruling has even a fraction of the impact we think it has, you can expect an appeal quicker than you can say "Va te faire foutre FNDF" (Federation Nationale des Distributeurs de Films, take it as our local MPAA)
Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
" So as long as a payment is going to someone, the moral slate is wiped clean? "
Actually, yes.
Copyrights exists so people can make a profit, and indirectly encourage them to make more "stuff". Downloading a movie is not about morality, its about compensating authors.
If the author is compensated in a legal way, there is no argument.
Yeah, and remember your helmet before you go riding on the information superhighway, too.
I have to go wash my hands after typing that, yech.
"part from some good films, music, and some OK television programmes, America is just another country to most people."
Right. That's why the obsess over it like a schoolgirl hoping the "hot" guy will ask them out.
Oh, and that Internet thingy? Invented in the U.S. of A.
"P2P" is legal? P2P is legal anywhere in the world. What you mean is: "downloading copyrighted movies using P2P" is legal. Sloppyness like this is what will equate P2P more and more with illegal actions in the public's mind, and therefore make it more and more difficult to defend if.
The first copyright law, in the modern sense, was the English Statute of Anne, enacted in 1709. It granted exclusive rights to authors, rather than publishers, and it included protections for consumers of printed works, ensuring that publishers could not control their use after sale. It also limited the duration of such exclusive rights to 28 years (14 years with an optional renewal), after which all works would pass into the public domain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright
I agree, it is bad when we are outsmarted by a nation of agressive hairdressers. They could at least have used some hair brained logic to justify it so we could still at least feel superior but it does make sense.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Yeah, I know, but does anyone buy those anymore? (Except for people using copiers that require them)
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Unknow to most 'english' speekers, 60% of the English language is french.
e.g.
Any word that ends in able, ation, ary in english are the same in french.
most of the words for meat.
alley as in alley way, is a place to go... etc...
As someone once said, English is just like french but pronounced very baddley.
So I bet that most people could pick through the french version and make out more-or-less the jist of the story.
Here's the rest of the reading guide.
avoir = own, to have
copié = (copy, but pronounced badly)
The little words...
de = from / of
du = of/ of the
par = per/through/via
pour = for
ou = or/also
été = were (also summer)
près = near/close
sur = over
Un = a
mois = Me
qui = who
nous = us - we
to = You
vous = You (but more polite).
La = the
ces't = it's (it/that is)
you can probably sed the artical into franglais
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Glad that someone got this right -even if it IS the french...
Now, if we can use this in courst, but I don't think that international rulings will work to set a precedent - especially in the current mostly-anti-french culture that's prevelant in the US nowadays..
But, on the plus side, I finally found a reason to like the french!
I'm sure his opinion is felt by many. They are NOT a friend of the United States.
yeah spending 4 billion $ a month against an army of donkeys and suicide bombers sounds like winning
Why do the Yanks hate the Frogs anyway? I never did figure that out. All I can see really was the Iraq war differences, where the US didn't like the fact that France didn't do what they were told, stood up for what they believed in, and made themselves heard. Ironicly, that's "idea" of being indepentant is what the USA was founded on.
Just don't get it...you hate them for doing the same thing that is supposed to define your own country!
England has only been invaded 4 times, and two of those were so gradual they hardly count. And Germany as such has only existed a few hundred years, although granted they managed to lose two major wars in that time. I take your point though.
I am trolling
The article says nothing about P2P software, only that he downloaded the films. The submitter needs to back up his claim that this will have an effect on P2P sharing.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
And is there some written law that says anyone should need to be a friend of the US?
As far as I can see the US on an international-level is rather un-friendly to most nations. (both by policy and deed).
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
You can't deny that they gave us the Statue of Liberty and helped us win our independance from England. Those two alone should be reason enough for every American to have at least some respect for them. Plus they're onboard with Syria now... No nation is so homogenized that you can say that none of them have ever been good for America, no matter what Mark Twain said.
They will never stop until somebody makes the
I wonder why this is not modded "troll".
I am sure many Americans are completely able to masturbate intellectually too and would even appreciate it.
More seriously, I really wonder how the parent can masturbate -even intellectualy- while watching such movies as Taxi, Taxi 2, Taxi 3 for instance...
thanks for the bashing fun !
I am not Remy Mouton, unfortunately: http://remy.mouton.free.fr/art/
Plus, the US had it's ass handed to it in Cuba (Bay of Pigs invasion), Vietnam and now Iraq. You can't win all the time, even dispite the power you can wield (e.g. Romans in Scotland, or lack of).
Never mind the fact that the French were correct and the Americans were wrong about WMD's.
Definitely an authentic French person.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Did Radio kill Music? No.
But Radio pays money only to original song authors not to recording artists.
So how come radio doesn't kill the record Industry? Back in the day the RIAA equivalent said it would and lobbied hard to stop it.
But no, Radio enhances music.
Radio sells more records.
It creates a bigger market.
People swapping music create a bigger market, everyone listens to more music than they own, if they like it then they buy more like it and go and see the band play and buy merchandise.
In a free market, some businesses fail when they are uneconomic. The RIAA is a Government Enforced Cartel.
P2P file sharing increased CD sales, it brought the CD single market to life, the Figures for the UK are crystal clear.
Even if the "Industry" tries to use the world economic downturn at the time of Napster to hide the facts in the US - they know the truth P2P generated a massive resurgence of intrest in music and thus CD sales.
What is killing music is Overpriced CDs and I-Tunes, Restricted Radio Play, Clear channel owning the venues, Lawsuits against fans, Overcontrol of Musicians, Unfair Contracts and Low pay for Musicians, insanely overpriced 'samples' destroying the vitality of rap, house and ambient, etc. etc.
How come they can do all this in a Free Market Economy? Because they are a cartel with a Government Enforced Monopoly.
Video was a lifeline to the Movie Industry yet they tried to outlaw the video recorder.
P2P will save music, stop couterfieting for cash not fans sharing for free.
Gorillaz rocketed to number 1 Album sales, largely attributed to the pre-publicity of fileswapping.
Fans are loyal they will support things, don't know how to make money out of being famous - then get out of the way of the up and coming.
Fan = Someone who Fanatically supports something or is into it.
This doesn't actually set any kind of precedent at all, because it doesn't need to.
International copyright law holds no provisions for the possession of violating material, only for the creation of it.
Except where countries have reinterpreted and extended their opinions of their agreement with international copyright laws, having a copy of something is not illegal. A very spritely intellectual describing himself as a kangaroo has recently argued that the US is one of the few countries to have reinterpreted and extended on this matter.
Uploading is illegal, downloading is not. Owning is not.
Imagine having asshole neighbors like that.
"A french appeal court ruled..."
That's "French", unless it's fries.
P2P is legal. Period. The software is legal, using it is legal. Here, in the good ol' US of A, there is much FUD that would make some folks believe that "P2P is illegal", but it isn't. Not in France, not here.
JoloK
Huh? All the comments have been in English so far; what do I need the fish for?
Wha? Oh, for the article.
Nevermind.
The Académie Francaise has strange hobbies like constantly inventing new words for technical stuff to prevent the "anglo-saxon 's invasion" of the beautiful vocabulary of our near-perfect language. (sarcasm)
Some of the words are used and for other we prefer to use the english word. Internaute is widely used and I didn't know americans didn't use this one.
applette and bidouilleur are commonly used but "hacker" is used too.
courriel, pouriciel (and not polluriciel) and pollupostage are sometimes used by journaliste but rarely in the spoken language.
addiciel, fumiciel and obesticiel I have never heard of.
"rustine" is a litteral translation, we continue to speak of a patch or a service pack instead.
Well you may be wrong, that is what they are trying to decide in the Grokster case.
Technology that is used for Illegal Things is Illegal UNLESS it has "substanial non-infringing uses" (from Sony Betamax precedent).
So at the Moment they are trying to decide whether P2P is Legal or Illegal.
I've always thought it somewhat hypocritical for any government to tax an act that it deems illegal. Something like "you aren't supposed to do this but when you do we want a little piece of the action."
Good for the French.
Actually, the Romans had their asses handed to them by the Picts. Modern Scots are Irish bastards who invaded Scotland and killed off the Pict muthas.
BTW, don't forget about the way Canadian troops from Halifax, Nova Scotia (aka "Brits") burned down the White House in 1812. We 0wn3d Yankistan then and we could do it again if they ever get stupid enough to try to mug us.:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
Well Partially Wrong, this is what the Grokster case is trying to decide right now, whether "substantial non-infringing uses" saves a technology from being made Illegal or Not.
Hell no! And I wish the French would install a off shore data haven in the Statue of Liberty now...
Oh that's easy enough to answer. We aren't what we were originally. We are now the Corporate States of America. The regions aren't dividided by borders any longer but they are divided by monopoly and oligopoly powers. And as I mentioned, they aren't divided by borers, I wasn't limiting that assertion to the states within the U.S. of A., but stretching out across the globe.
Oh yes, the C.S.A. rules most of the world now and it's only because the people who can stop it love money more than their world.
This line of thinking is very dangerous. For example I could tell you why do you think the jews have been historically hated by so many people ? :)
Silly things can perpetuate and propagate without having a good reason to exist in the first place. Hate the frenchs if you want (i'm one), but not for a reason like this one.
If you can't find a good reason I can insult if you want
It's not FACTS, it's a biased selection and description of real events.
For instance: 1.8 million Frenchmen were killed in WWI alone. Less than 1 million American soldiers have died in all american wars, combined.
So how is it a 'fact' that the USA did 'most of the fighting'?
Speaking as a "Yank", I have to point out that a few people here actually like France for at least a few things. True, France is a very independent country, and that makes them somewhat of a thorn in the side of the retarded politicians here.
:P) during the early years of the nation's history. A few even remember that the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France.
But most Americans (the ones with a working brain cell or two, at least) don't hate France. We think of France as being a beautiful area with lots of wine and sexy women (and romantic men, according to most womens' dreams). Some people that were able to stay awake through history classes in middle and high school remember that France helped us fight off those evil, nasty, imperialist pigs from Britain (and occasionally their lap dogs in Canuckistan
Of course, the prevailing idea that the French are wussies and whiny little bitches has some merit as well. In World War 2, they seemed a bit wussy (though most countries would've buckled under that sort of attack until the German armies were finally spread thinly enough to whomp on). And ever since, they've been whiny little hippies. Then again, San Francisco is just as bad, and that's something we can't just blame on someone else.
Keep that in mind... Not all Americans are stupid, irresponsible, rude, annoying jackasses. Just the ones in power.
In France or otherwise.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Just an example for you to chew on : the 100 years war. You depict it as being war between France and England, which is totaly wrong. It was a war between 2 princes BOTH claiming to be legitimate heirs to the throne of France ; one happened to be already king of England, but that doesn't really count. The winner happened to be crowned, but that doesn't make it a "french victory" per se.
Almost all your list shows the same void of historical knowledge, because before the XIXth century, Europe was divided into kingdoms, subdivided between lords who had very loose ties to their kings, and would even go as far as fighting between themselves, and against their own king eventually and easily swap alliances.
The very notion of country as you understand it (state - nation) is too modern.
The very idea that "french" as a whole are always beaten is therefore completely absurd, and would have seemed preposterous at the time. It would be strictly equivalent to conclude North americans always lose their battles because Confederates were beaten by the Yankees. oops.
The problem with this is not that France lost ... it was because they more or less started WWII by extorting and bashing Germany every way they could ...
...
... It even existed rumors that french peasants demaned rent from brittish soilders because they dug foxholes on the peasants land.
... and because they(like america ;) ...) always see to themself first ... So it is not that strange why you guys hate each other ;) ...
After WWI they where more or less the only superpower in the world, not because there was no one strong but because no one else cared
In the 1930 and around WWII the brittish(if I remember correctly, it could been WWI) was more keen on join germany then the french, because France and England was old enemies and the french was seen as impossible to cooperate with.
One other thing that made the brittish reluctant to support the French, was because many brittish WWI soldiers thaught they been treated badly by the french
So french-bashing has a long history
llyntddyrllnyrcddyty
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It's been a pragmatic mesure to find a decent way to retribute artists, given the current decrease of theyre income.
I used to think that Polish was impossible to pronouce, but then I took a year of Polish language classes just for fun. I found that once you learn how the pronunciation works, reading Polish isn't so bad. (There's a lot of what I call "combo letters" that represent single sounds in Polish: cz, sz, dz, etc., and the letter "y" is actually a vowel: a short "i" in English) It can still be difficult at times, but not impossible.
One still runs into plenty of words that are hard to pronounce (the city of Szczebrzeszyn is my favorite), but it can be done. The two-letter "Szcz" combo (Sz = sh, and cz = ch ) that comes before some Polish words is particularly hard on my poor American tongue.
My Polish teacher also had us try to say a Polish tongue twister. That was impossible: the language is a tongue twister as it is without adding that.
I'm guilty. But tell me, why do you think it is that so many people are more anti-French than anti-other EU countries?
I'll tell you that. An active campaign during the latter half of the 20th century.
Historically, the USA has not been anti-french. The French were allies in the War of Independence. The founding fathers were very much inspired by the Enlightenment, which was to a large part a French movement. The French peacefully sold Louisiana to the US. The French gave the US the Statue of Liberty. And so on.
But there is an old Anglo-Saxon grudge against the French which dates back forever. That much is true.
What happened, happened during and after WWII. The USA and UK didn't want De Gaulle to lead France, since he was a rather proud/arrogant guy, strongly independent, and would not let himself be convinced to do something unless it was what he considered to be best for France. In other words, he acted a lot like America does.
So France went off on their own, unilaterally leaving NATO, for instance. America responded by calling them arrogant, ungrateful, and playing on existing anglo-saxon stereotypes of 'snooty' French. The french, to an extent, do consider the Americans to be arrogant as well. Whereas both nations have really done nothing other than support their own self-interest.
There is also a general anti-European sentiment in the USA (and vice versa, of course, but the forms are different). There has been a very deliberate effort from the American republicans in the last half-century to paint a bad picture of Europe.
Because Europe is more to the left than the USA, giving the Democrats the argument of a Good Example would be a dangerous thing. So Europe (and France in particular) has been badmouthed at every opportunity. High taxes. Strikes. Inefficiency. Listening to American media reports, you'd think Europe is part of the third world.
And the strategy worked: I'll give them that. You cannot refer to Europe in American politics. It's political suicide. Taboo. Tell Americans something is European and they'll vote against it on sheer principle.
(European anti-americanism is different. Referring to the USA in European politics happens all the time.)
As for the 'french surrender' crap. It's a lie and a prejudice. An uncommonly stupid and hurtful one, at that.
Ha! They block my work IP (it's in 20.x.x.x, if that means anything). Clearly I work for a company that's mean to filesharers. Huh. I had no idea; I thought it was a tech support and hosting company.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Perhaps it would be more correct to say, that in the last one hundred years, the French as a whole always seem to get their asses kicked.
Expect America to invade France within the month.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
No more, no less than any other european nation. That's what all the UE is about : stop the madness.
Try reading this:r d.html
http://www.exile.ru/2003-October-02/war_ne
From the same source:
A Net surfer, continued to have downloaded or have copied nearly 500 films from the Internet or to the DVD, was released by the Court of Appeal of Montpellier, déboutant 17 giants of the cinema who had constituted civil parts.
Yes, there is only one DVD in France. It's illegal to copy movies to it.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
I believe, in technical parlance, that you FAIL IT.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
We pay a similar tax for blank CDs under the Home Recording Act. I can't understand why we PAY the music industry a tax on the media, but we are still not allowed to fill the media with content?!
If we already paid for and own the content, then what's the justification for the tax?! The tax only makes sense if we're allowed to put music we on the disc we didn't pay for.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
There is a very high degree of crossover in the English and French languages, but it would be very hard to prove, conclusively, that a word "came from France" or "came from England", as opposed to coming from one of the common sources and simply being adopted at different times.
The Battle of Hastings involved Normans. I believe they are considered distinct from the French. The bleed-over between English and French was limited as a result of a few centuries of futile war which ended up with neither side actually gaining anything, but both sides nearly driving their countries bankrupt.
To add to the useless trivia, the origins of the spellings for the numbers Eleven and Twelve, in English, French and German (and probably other European languages) is unclear but probably far older than the current spelling of any other number.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This makes me a little less ticked about Chirac and his nuclear crap a few years ago. France did something right - something very right! Maybe they'll start exporting groovy morals in addition to their kickass food. (And not, in the words of Dennis Leary, have Americans "turn the 'kwoiosson' into the Croissanwich.")
They had fine wine, cheap women, and the French, Spanish and British Governments ran the biggest piracy operations on the high seas that have ever been seen.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
If you send me a free Mac Mini, I'll set one up for you...
The same thing applies in the US, I am suprised why no-one has taken this to court.
In the United States the AHRA (Audio Home Recording Act Codified in Section 10, 1992) prohibits action against consumers making noncommercial recordings of music, in return for royalties on both media and devices plus mandatory copy control on recorders.
Later amendments to the law state that more than 10 copies is a commercial act.
So make no more than 10 copies - then there would be no problem.
Hey Yankees you already pay the Tax, why pay the fine too.
This is probably why they only went after very heavy uploaders and sharers but can they prove that more than 10 copies have been made and it is not necessarily reasonable to assume so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
> they gave us the Statue of Liberty and helped us win our independance from England. Those two alone should be reason enough for every American to have at least some respect for them
No one from those times are still alive. Things change. We cannot be forever indebted to a country because they did something 200 years ago.
Who I have respect for are the French people who fought and died, or even quietly supported us from France. None of them are alive now.
There are plenty of current reasons to respect them, this being only a minor one IMO.
"The Congress shall have the power...to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries ..."
There are various "Fair Use" exceptions which have been established by various court cases. Home Recording of Broadcasts for Personal Use is one; Parody and Criticism are "Fair Use" even if in a commercial context.
"Fair Use" is not a right it is a defense.
One key test for "Fair Use" is has the market for the original work been decreased as a result.
This is why the RIAA has been at such pains to distort the economic facts and establish that Music Copying has resulted in lost sales instead of the idea that it has acted like radio play and increased the size of the market and revenues.
Luckily for them Napster coincided with an economic downturn allowing them to 'show' that music sales fell while P2P grew
Well sales of everything fell and sales of music fell less which in Real Terms, at the time was an increase.
In fact in Britain sales increased despite the economic downturn making a mockery of their arguments.
When you factor in the Vast increase in the cost of Albums on CD despite lowered production costs, so sales were up, prices were up and profits per album were up.
So the truth is P2P has acted like radio, as an engine of publicity and added value to their products making consumers more enthusiastic and drawing in new consumers, increasing the size of the market.
But they had to lie or it would be obvious to everyone that P2P file swapping benefits the music industry as well as the tech. industry and in fact props it up despite the unfair pricing pracices of the Music Cartel.
And if P2P was of financial benefit well then it could well be judged "Fair Use".
But Radio pays a liscense fee, well fellow Free Thinkers so do we, a tax on all blank media and recording devices which means you are allowed to make 10 copies for personal use.
Section 1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions
" No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings. " - section 10.08 of the Audio Home Recording Act 1992
There it is man, Black and White law, copies for personal use are totally 100% legal.
(So long as you make less than 10 copies, the limit for personal use)
So Congress blanket liscense P2P before the RIAA destroys the best thing that ever happened to it.
Just like the MPAA when it was Universal Pictures versus the Sony Betamax. If they had won and outlawed Video Recorders - then Filmakers would have been out of work.
And Widely Avaulable Music helps educate everyone as to what is possible and makes more musicians making more music which is the Basis for all this value.
Its about the Art, Art comes from people, people well versed in their own culture, not from The Cartel, do they fund music schools? do they help unsigned bands?
The RIAA are lying and some of these cases need to go to Court where their lies can be exposed.
P.S. Uploading is illegal so how do we get round this, no problem the first uploader must be a liscensed streaming web radio station that plays songs on request. Then everyone makes less than copies and so on.
For Evil to Triumph it is only necessary to Stop Sharing.
Copying for Personal use is legal under US law.
The law is the US Home Audio Recording Act.
That is why the Only sue uploaders as that is publishing which is what Copyright protects - publishing rights.
COPIES FOR PERSONAL USE ARE LEGAL.
toutes mes felicitations pour ta xenophobie sans complexe !
There are two things here: P2P and copyright infringement. The problem is, they are not the same thing. By saying P2P is Legal because someone was declared not liable for copyright infringement is irrelevant.
The true test of P2P legality comes from issues such as MGM v. Grokster and the various INDUCE bills floating around the US and particularly California.
The issue here isn't the current state of affairs with P2P being a massive utility for copyright infringement, it is the potential for a zero-cost infinite distribution channel for publishers. That potential is what P2P is really all about.
http://pixelcort.com/
The Home Recording Act states that you can make 10 copies for personal use, analog or digital.
What is illegal is Uploading or Sharing amongst those who are not your immediate family or friends.
Downloading a copy for personal use is not illegal, it never has been, it is illegal to violate DRM due to the DCMA, so ripping a DRM'ed 'CD' is illegal, but ripping a Real CD for personal use is legal, dowloading a rip for personal use is legal.
Publishing is illegal, so being the sharer is illegal that is why they always sue uploaders, this time they messed up the guy had only downloaded and shared with friends - this would be legal in the US too.
Yeah, but they were FRENCH!
Yes, the US was un-friendly to the Germans when Hitler was in power, but the French capitulated to the Nazis with open arms. US troops have occupied West Germany ever since the end of that war, and the West Germany economy is doing reasonably well. It was the US President John F. Kennedy, a Democrat, who said "Ich bin ein Berliner" showing solidarity with a divided Berlin, one half occupied by the Soviets. It was the US President Ronald Reagan, a Republican, who urged "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall". Damn the United States.
Yes, the US was un-friendly to the Japanese by dropping an atomic bomb to end a war that started with the unprovoked Japanese attack on the United States in Pearl Harbor, and then helped build Japan into the number 1 economy in the world. The Japanese industrialists revere the teachings of the United States's Edward Deming, and have since become one of the best trading partners with the US. From Japanese anime to videogames to cuisine, Japanese culture has been embraced in the US as much as US culture has been embraced in Japan. Yet Japan is still "occupied" by US military troops. Damn the United States.
Yes the US was un-friendly to the North Koreans during the invasion by the Chinese communists in the 1950s, and American troops helped maintain democracy in South Korea, enabling South Korea to build its high tech manufacturing capability to become one of the "most wired" countries in the word. Yet South Korea is "occcupied" by US military troops. Damn those US.
Yes the US was un-friendly to the Soviet Union and threatened them with nuclear warhead build ups and the Star Wars defense system (SDI) during the Ronald Reagan administration. During the Carter administration, in fact, the United States boycotted the 1980 Olympics to protest the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. When Ronald Reagan died, the former leader of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev, came to Reagan's casket lying in state out of respect and attended the memorial funeral ceremoies. Gorbachev admits that Reagan's adherence to SDI contributed greatly to the fall of the Soviet Union. Damn the US. This must explain why much of the countries of the former Easter bloc of the Soviet Union are fans of the US. So damn them too.
Yes the US was unfriendly to Saddam Hussein, a Stalinist imitator, the only world leader not to send condolences for 9-11, leader of the only country that repeatedly violated the "No Fly Zone" airspace that protected the minority Iraqi Kurds from massacre, and the only country that fired missiles upon United States patrols in violation of the ceasefire that ended the First Gulf War. Those damn US troops patrolled the streets and polling stations of Iraq and enabled 8.4 million brave Iraqis to take a chance and vote for their future in January of this year, despite threats of violence, beheadings, and hostage taking from terrorists. Damn the US.
Yes the US is so unfriendly. The United States invented the Internet which allow you to write your statements. Damn the United States.
You should read what an outspoken anti-Bush and anti-war senior news analyst Daniel Schorr of National Public Radio had to say on March 4, 2005:
Now all that needs to be done is a similar ruling in America's supreme court, or better yet a ruling that miraculously puts the heads of the RIAA in jail for life... Yeah, I'll dream on.
have you forgotten that the whole europe, excluding england and russia were once under the domain of the french?
That doesn't mean that the judge's thinking is unimportant, just no-one else can rely upon it.
Look it is legal to Download for Personal Use, just as it legal to tape off of TV or Radio - and to share these copies with your friends and family.
It is not legal to Upload material, so we can only share what they provide, that means not obscure tracks, not minority interest music, not the Longtail where most of the value is.
As Clearchannel now owns radio, now we can only copy the mainstream 'mu-sick' they want us to like.
The result Homogenised Innofensive Unquestioning Culture.
In France and Canada having things in you kazaa shared folder is not considered publishing, broadcasting or distribution.
So the only hope for world culture is for everyone to Leech off of the French and Canadians.
It will be funny when after 10 years of only the rich having access to culture via overpriced DRM'ed CD's the US becomes so culturally backward that it forced into further bankrupcy by importing art.
Most artists and bands when starting out need access to culture but can't afford RIAA style prices.
Kill Art Outlaw P2P
Outlaws are cool though I guess - shows real commitment to art to have to break the law.
Mashup Mixup WOO WOO.
no, wait
"We dont need more Blank Media Laws, we just need to enforce the ones already --"
no, thats not it. how about:
"You can Take my Blank Media when you pry it from my cold, dead...."
hmm. no, not it either. Okay:
"Forced Child Saftety Locks with each sale of Blank Media is an Infringement on my Second Amend--- er... Unconstitut--"
ah, dammit.
I know theres something here, but I just cant put my finger on it.
considering the suit was brought by 17 major Film corporations, the majority being American, including Columbia, Disney, Warner, et. al.
IANAL, but all of falls under International Law, and the French judge's ruling is a setback to to the Motion Picture comapanies who brought the suit.
Its the same if you were to have copied a bunch of French films from a French film distribution company, and they were to try and prosecute you for copyright infringement in a US court.
Who has actually watched 500 different movies?
Who would actually download and keep all 500 of them?
wtf, you can only reply to the main post!? (firefox&ie 23:00 ZULU)
the **aas are american organizations [although they want to be the world's police].
sum.zero
It might be possible. Now that I'm not at work, I can mention Computer Sciences Corporation, my employer. They're a ginormous outsourcing company, employing something like ninety thousand IT professionals. (Professional, me---ha!) They also have data centers and managed hosting in a number of places, including where I work. Big room with complicated doors and a Halon system. So maybe the "do mean things to P2P" application is hosted there.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
They have no money or manpower to invade any country, well at least not for the next 20-40 years.
Sell your dollars! Make USA buy your stuff!
- Al Buffet
They have three divisions of lawyers, an armored brigade of bought-out radio hosts and two heavy cruisers made entirely of recycled bankrupcy filings.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
That's interesting, thank you for taking the time to respond. It's hard to think differently about something when you have had a particular opinion for a long time, even if the opinion was never truly yours but adopted because of popular opinion. I'm sorry if any of my earlier comments have offended anyone and I will try to hold a more open mind in the future.
Because you got most of your facts from CNN?
Open a real history book instead of googling for half-false information that "prove" your point and you see that history is more complicated than you think.
Oh, and I think I google for dozens of american military defeats too.
At last some common sense.
17 major corporations sueing a young guy on the dole for 15000 because he DARED to use P2P
and didn't even share much of what he DLed.
What kind of a fight is that ?
YES ! FUCK YOU MPAA !!! Keep dreaming about your
pigopoly and your slimy greedy managers and
shareholders.
France rocks for once !!!
So France went off on their own, unilaterally leaving NATO, for instance.
This is wrong.
France is a NATO member and was so since founding. France however has the majority (or all?) of their troups *NOT* under NATO high command but under their own.
Especially the nuclear forces and naval forces, also the foreign legion, are outside of the NATO.
But you can not construct from that, that France has left the NATO.
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Which artists get the royalties, if they don't know what content is being downloaded?
amazing.
french courts: the only courts more wack assed than america's!!1
-- lol pwned
You are correct. France is a NATO member.
However, France (under De Gaulle) did leave NATO military command completely in 1966, which is the specific incident I was referring to. They rejoined (in part) in 1992.
Still, my point in the post was to point out that France has not related to NATO in the same way as the rest of the NATO member, not to give a detailed history of NATO.
The French keep getting called cowards... but they seem to have the balls to stand up to the RIAA and MPPA.
It is good that the French support fair, personal use. I hope the rest of the European Union follows suit.
LOL You'll have to do better than that pal...
We may like sharing but we're not masochists !!!
"There is also a general anti-European sentiment in the USA (and vice versa, of course, but the forms are different)."
Could you elaborate on that? (apart from the "Referring to the USA in European politics happens all the time")
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---