Slashdot Mirror
E-mail As the New Database
jira writes "BBC has an article confirming the trend of using inbox as a sort of personal database. At my workplace I can personally attest to the growing sizes of those pst files and an unwillingness to erase any emails because of 'loss of information'." From the article: "The trend has become more pronounced as the services have dramatically increased their storage capacity in response to upstart Gmail offering a free service with 1,000 megabytes (Mb) of storage." Update: 04/22 23:03 GMT by Z : To reflect that the story is at respected news organization BBC, not a BBS.
I must say, I'm very guilty of this.
I only tend to delete spam. It DOES get handy when I need something though.
3 gmail's search.
Foxed Design
Gmail is up over two gigabytes now.
Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
Actually, GMail is offering:
;) At the very least 2GB. I'm sure at the time these things were created in response it was because of the 1GB thing...
"Don't throw anything away.
2121.042690 megabytes (and counting) of free storage so you'll never need to delete another message."
Their new Infinity + 1 storage technology or some Jazz like that (hey their marketing words not mine)
Mb = Megabits MB = Megabytes
8Mb = 1MB
I hope this clears things up!
It's BBC not BBS.
Thanks to Google's Infinite Improbability Storage Drive, storage space is now at 2.120 GB to 1 and rising.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Doesn't GMail offer more space than that now? When was this article submitted?
Maybe it's submissions get rejected immediately but take weeks to be accepted? This one clearly sat in the queue for 3 weeks.
not that anyone's paying attention, but google offers 2+ gigs of storage now and it's going up up up.
That, and who doesn't use the simplest way to store and retrieve information? For my roommate it was his pda and 1 gig SD cards. For me, it's email and google able to store 10mb attachments for 2gigs worth of data and my pda. it almost completely negates the need for a pc these days with online storage and pda's.
cept for those cube monkeys (shudder) who actually sit in front of one for hours on end. what a waste. (perhaps I'll explain that one later in my journal?)
~zoloto
Zonk meant to type BBC...
It's not uncommon for users to have several GB of email on the server and multiple archive files. Disk is cheap, backup windows are MASSIVE. At what point does reliability outweigh convenience? According to users? NEVER.
-Randy
Am I the only one with 2,000 MB?
.pst files?! Pulllllease. That's SO 1990's. ;)
And, yes, e-mail as a pseudo-database is wonderful -- well, with the conveniences gmail offers, at least. But with
Yep. I do desktop support and nobody wants to delete anything. that's their paper trail and the one email they delete may mean their job down the line as people are looking for somebody to blame and heads to chop. Most communication is done through email with proper CCs (and sometimes BCCs) and they require it even between people sutting next to eachother just so there is that paper trail at a later date. When they've told somebody or reported an issue, they want to show proof they've done so later if somebody else drops the ball and there are people looking for blame.
"Gmail offering a free service with 1,000 megabytes (Mb) of storage."
I don't know about you, but my Gmail has 2121.046851 megabytes of storage space. I mean 2121.047702 megabytes. I mean 121.048913 megabytes. I mean...
Such a program that can pull relevant information out of an e-mail message, especially one with sigs in them, and place it correctly in an address book format sounds like a great add-on.
Personally, I think it is a good idea, I would really like to see Google Implementing some kind of "GDrive", where I can have all or most of my documents, I know there is an ap for doing it in Gmail but, I maybe a Google's service with web page and file browser interface (as cool as their Gmail interface) would be nice.
.ppt etc) talking about Scotland vacations, I get some ads about vacations.
Of course, I would like it to be free (as all other Google's services), and I would not mind having the ads at the side if for example I have a document (.DOC,
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
My personal database says that I'm a pervert with a small penis who uses lots of prescription drugs financed by taking a 2nd mortgage and my relative in Nigeria.
Doesn't anyone else just think that email totally sucks? I can't remember the last time I checked my email other than to hit 'confirm' when I signed up for some stupid web service like nytimes.com.
Every time I try to save an email, it ends up getting deleted anyway when I'm throwing out the spam 100's of emails at a time. Email is useless as it is and nothing important should ever be done with an email.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
gmail works as a file cabinet.
I send myself email sometimes with information I find useful and will want later. Then tag it with the gmail category.
Instant file cabinet and fully searchable. (I used to use apple's notepad for this, but its not in osx).
Google's up to ~2Gig now. Just FYI.
I have discovered a truly marvelous
More like instead of deleting my spam because of space concerns I can simply store it indefinitely.
I say we just grow up, be adults and die.
PR As stated, trend reports are almost always PR. At least it isn't a dupe.
2*31*37*263
Like other people I have all this information (emails, ebooks, papers, photos, mp3s, whatever) but there really aren't any good applications out there for organising it. In fact, the best applications out there are probably file systems but they aren't exactly smart. It's incredible that the organization software we have is so bad that people are finding that their email clients are serving this purpose even though their ability to do this is basically a side effect. Only now have companies like MS and Apple finally realised that searching though data is something important. Why has it taken this long?
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
But searching sucks, and I depend on Evolution to do virtual folders. I'd love it even more if my email server was actually a true RDBMS where I could have, besides the traditional IMAP interface, a D (Tutorial D or D4 or something the like) language interface where I could query at will, and save my queries as views that would show up in IMAP as (virtual) folders.
BTW, even non-relational ISO SQL would be so much better than what we have now.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
It's kind of hard to do when the company's legal weasels insist on nuking all email older than 30 days. I understand the reason for the policy but I think it's short-sighted.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
BBC news recently did a piece on the same topic. video rip here
"BBS has an article confirming the trend of using inbox as a sort of personal database. At my workplace I can personally attest to the growing sizes of those pst files and an unwillingness to erase any emails because of 'loss of information'." From the article: "The trend has become more pronounced as the services have dramatically increased their storage capacity in response to upstart Gmail offering a free service with 1,000 megabytes (Mb) of storage."
.PST
BBS = The BBC
pst = Microsoft Outlook
Gmail is no upstart, they're run by Google. Gmail currently offers 2121MB (that's Megabytes, not Mb - which is MegaBITS)
This isn't news. This is what Google had in mind when they started the Gmail service.
using mail to store file for years.
ever sent a file to yourself just to have it in the mail box?
in one shot you get:
- use of your mail client search tools
- easy retrival trough web mail
- possibility of categorizing it
- nested in the thread it belong to
My work e-mail account is currently about 550MB. This account contains all email traffic dating back to summer of 2003 till now. So it a filing cabinet? If it is, it's pretty big and fat.
IIRC, their service said 1000 megabytes rather than 1024 megabytes. Anyhoo, it's all a moot point now since the storage keeps rising so we don't need to be concerned with engineering numbers vs. marketing numbers.
It's _really_ good to be able to pull an email up months later and say
"No, this is what you agreed to" or "No, you were informed. Here's my email and your response".
I keep a some emails for months. Some of it _never_ gets deleted. It's a b*llsh*t deflector that's saved me from career damage more than once.
http://request-header.info
One possibility is that Hotmail's market dominance could be affected by rival services better equipped to search through thousands of e-mails.
You're telling me. I've had about 10-15 people fed up with hotmail ask me for Gmail invites and they're spreading them to friends and family as well afterwards. Lately I've been having trouble with hotmail and completely switched over to Gmail because of it. I think hotmail had its time to shine, but hasn't been able to keep up with the any of the new services. The one nice feature that Gmail includes that hotmail doesn't ironically is the ability to forward e-mail, unless I'm just totally blind they seemed to have removed it. The other item I noticed is the decrease in spam after I switched, I barely get any and I use my gmail account to sign-up for everything!
I say we just grow up, be adults and die.
I started out using the email client in Netscape 2 back in 1996. Then came Netscape 3, 4.04, 4.61, and then the Mozilla suite which I've upgraded a bunch. I'll probably move to Thunderbird eventually. Anyway, each upgrade has been compatible with, and preserved, my earlier emails so that I have nearly 10 years of emails sent and received online which has become a very useful tool, just by itself. I doubt that anyone has done that with Outlook...or if they had, they probably would have spammed all of their friends a few dozen times by now.
No, that's what Mailinator is for. (to hit confirm when you sign up for a service like nytimes).
Welcome to Mailinator(tm) - Its no signup, instant anti-spam service. Here is how it works: You are on the web, at a party, or talking to your favorite insurance salesman. Wherever you are, someone (or some webpage) asks for your email. You know if you give it, you're gambling with your privacy. On the other hand, you do want at least one message from that person. The answer is to give them a mailinator address. You don't need to sign-up. You just make it up on the spot. Pick jonesy@mailinator.com or bipster@mailinator.com - pick anything you want (up to 15 characters before the @ sign).
Later, come to this site and check that account. Its that easy. Mailinator accounts are created when mail arrives for them. No signup, no personal information, and when you're done - you can walk away - an instant solution to one way spammers get your address. Its an anti-spam solution for everyone. The messages are automatically deleted for you after a few hours.
Let'em spam.
One gigabyte is 1000 megabytes. Perhaps you're thinking of a gibibyte?
It must have been a *really* slow news day, or someone at the BBC is rather slow. Techies have been doing this since the 1st email message was received, and everyone else has been doing it since they discovered email.
I know a small handful of people who tend to keep their email cleaned out and very small. For everyone else, it's a huge. mostly convenient database.
This "story" is only about 1% less sill than reporting that "recent study shows people prefer to breathe than to stop".
Back in the days of paper, people had document shredders, if they did not want a record of a conversation it was easy to convey information without having a record.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
Only now have companies like MS and Apple finally realised that searching though data is something important
MMmm, I think Google realized that some time ago, and there where other file searching applications before the indexing based search programs started to gain popularity
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
I should really clean up a bit.
Blame it on clippy, it always works for CmdrTaco.
the article only seems to look at on-line email services (gmail, aol, hotmail...). I had expected them to address what this practice is doing to corperate mail servers. Or is this article just trying to tell the suits that they can use gmail and to quit harrassing tech support for a larger mailbox?
I've just started using David Allen's system Getting Things Done (GTD) for organizing my work, mostly in response to a new position at work that has me involved in a lot more projects than before.
It's the lowest-overhead way I've found of staying organized. One of his tenets is getting your Inbox (both physical and virtual) to empty. I've done it.
Here I am on a Friday afternoon with exactly three items in my email Inbox, and none in my physical one -- although I've been working on three different projects today, and am currently involved (off and on) in a usability role in half a dozen others.
The biggest benefit so far in implementing this system has been rapid context switches: the biggest benefit so far has been faster context switches: I'm moving from project to project, meeting to meeting, and nothing gets lost - email, papers, usability test results, are all quickly and accurately accessible.
I guess my point is that even if email is being used as a personal database, it probably shouldn't be. Or at least, it should be structured in such a way that items are (1) only archived if they need to be for future reference, and there's no action to be taken on them, or (2) filed because you're waiting for someone else to do something, but you think you'll need to act once they're done.
I've only been at this for two weeks, but the benefits thus far have been dramatic, with very little overhead. Look up the book in your library or favorite local bookstore; I've been very impressed.
[mikew@romulus mikew]$ du -hs .mail .mail
575M
If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
But, I find my email working in exactly the way he proposed. My email package provides the best database I have of my work and communication. Searchable by date, correspondent, content, subject; control-click to organize by date, sender, header; automatic filters to sort by same; subfolders; attachments of all kinds accessable by the search; and I can add to it from anywhere by emailing myself. I use email to mainain to-do (email myself), I use email to maintain a calendar of past activities by searching for email on the topic (when did we do X?) , I use email to store minor documents and search for them as attachments. By using pop and downloading all email to my harddrive, I have no limitations of an account.
So, while dubious about "lifestreams", I've backed into it as the core of my work habits.
Why do you need the e-mail of every person who's ever contacted you? Why is it better than, say, using a normal database? BTW this reminds me of this thing i found that lets you use a g-mail account as a virtual hard drive.
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
I have done this for years at work. Of course my employers have (almost) all used Exchange/Outlook. With 2003, I don't keep anything locally in .pst file, everything on the server (I do local caching on my laptop, though) but I have Google Desktop Search. So I can instantly search through thousands of emails without having to worry about Outlook soaking up too much memory. I actually used the MSN desktop search on my work computer for awhile because of its tighter integration with Outlook. I was already using GDS at home, but switched at work too when they added Firefox/Thunderbird support.
All my personal email goes through GMail, but I always access that either through Firefox or I routinely download everything through Thunderbird just for kicks. I email things to myself (bookmarks, pictures, and mp3s especially) on GMail all the time so I can take advantage of its portability, storage, and searching.
archives... all 3Gb of them. Google local search does a fine job on my 3.5Gb pst.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
So -- Is there a package out there that actually uses a FOSS database like MySQL or Postgres for us email hogs that makes searching records, cataloguing items, making backups, separating attachments from body content, etc. more convenient? Or should I just shut the hell up and stick with what Outlook (and soon-to-be Evolution) give me because they already work, albeit slowly?
Ever have to deal with a bloated and corrupted .pst file?
:-)
No fun.
Users that like to keep everything on the planet should probably think twice about trusting it all to Microsoft Outlook (or any local POP email client, for that matter)
IMAP rocks.
BTW, Don't try to use your regular mailbox to store important documents. I tried this recently, and some jerk in a uniform comes along, and stuffs in more SPAM and BILLS which causes my important documents to become disorganized. Every single day except Sunday.
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
Course when the muppets hit 2Gb, bye goes all that "important" data. Hmm, how to persuade people to archive and delete all that crap they have lying about.
If you look at the script on their login page and do a little math, you find that they're adding a gig a year. (In increments of one byte).
I personally use RoamDrive (http://www.roamdrive.com) to store my files on my Gmail and Hotmail accounts.
I'm doing some beta testing for them on the next release and it supports linking together multiple accounts. I currently have two Gmail accounts and one Hotmail account setup for a total of a bit over 6GB of online storage. (4GB of which is free... but I pay for hotmail.)
Occasionally Gmail will change something and the program will break but they usually have an update out within hours and the program can automatically update itself.
Only bad part is that it has a banner at the bottom of the app. No other adware or spyware stuff, though.
I did this for several years at a previous employer, with Lotus Notes. Hated it as an emailer, but it was just fine for retaining and finding stuff. I'd even mail Word or Excel files to myself.
When I left, my inbox was several thousand files deep, and that was typical.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
besides the incorrect figure of 1000 megabytes (it's currently more than 2GB), the writer marked the units in megabits (Mb) instead of the correct megabytes (MB)
In spite of Google's business principle against evil and in spite of the my frequent use of gmail, I think it is fundamentally bad and potentially evil. "Possession is nine points of the law", and there is no good reason for Google to be in possession of *MY* email. A few GBs of storage is *NOT* the issue, and I have plenty of free GBs right here in my possession, even including space for the indexes. Perhaps Google really is a good company and they will never abuse the power of possessing someone's email--but the historical evidence does not support that belief. Every power gets abused sooner or later.
In simplest terms, here is the threat of online gmail: Would you want your worst enemy to have access to all of your email? If you have put it into gmail, then all it would take is a single password leak.
The constructive alternative is obvious. Gmail should live primarily on your own disk, preferably integrated with the Google Desktop. The nine points of possession would remain on *YOUR* side, since you would still possess all of your email.
Many extended services could then be built on that model...
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
I am suprised the RIAA has not gone after email companies yet, they have to be an attractive target. It is going to be an easy way of sharing MP3's. I might have a CD, rip the best songs to MP3's and email all my friends. Hell, maybe we'll even form an email group that does nothing but share MP3's. I wonder if the RIAA will come after them if that becomes the next trend.
Why on earth would a person need 2 gigabytes for email? If it is a company, they must have their own storage, nobody would want to trust a free email account for buisness.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
Interesting article .. .. ..
I don't believe it is true
But I'll forward it to my GMail account for later reference
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
You can't change the accepted use of something mid course and expect people to use it.
If you need to invent a new universal quantity for measuring computer storage, then feel free to use a new acronym, but don't steal existing ones.
(I know this rant is not aimed at the parent poster, more about the shitfit of ambiguity that this subject brings up, and whoever green lighted this as a proposal should be shot. I'll stop now, sorry)
liqbase
I'd say metadata, and its acceptance.
When people used to have a couple hundred mp3s or photos, it wasn't a big deal to just operate by file names or date imported. This is completely anecdotal, but I'd guess people are starting to be smarter about tagging their docs, pics, music, etc properly and thoroughly now that your average user is acumulating larger and larger amounts of data. I know with iPhoto and iTunes, I've found that investing the time is a good tagging strategy had made life a lot easier.
Now that users are using metadata, makers of OS's can utilize metadata to make a better product.
You know what?
Come on, just save that attachment on the network drive and get rid of that email. Stop being retarded and lazy.
Nothing but laziness and terrible organizational skills. Fucking people who have to sift through their emails for countless time to find something when it should be in a folder.
ogg
Black cat, searing pain, flames...? I must be in Heaven! - Homer Simpson
Multi-party emails often have differing threads going on, so you can't always delete older iterations of the reply emails.
Then, there are the lazy so-and-so's who just "Reply To All" on a totally different subject, probably because the last email happened to have all the right recipients. When I reply to those, I always re-subject it, but let them know.
Say you are talking about compilers for a project and "Re: software tools" suddenly becomes "when will the project be done". Well, it is all the same project, but now the topic has changed. When I reply subject will re-Subject it to be something like; "Timelines [was Re: software tools]" So now it has a new, on-topic subject, but it also shows where it came from.
Of course if there is nothing relevant from the original thread, I'll just "reply" with a new subject, period.
Don't even get me started on folks who send emails with NO Subject...
I always try to start at least an informal design doc, where information can be captured. Periodically you can distribute this doc and get buy-ins, that is the CYA part.
The biggest issue is that many people just don't communicate clearly. Using email seems to be even worse, maybe because it is not a "formal" document. Oh well.
You know what - changing jobs every couple of years is a nice way to clear out mental, virtual, and sometime physical clutter that is no longer needed.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
When people start storing files (attachments) in their inboxes instead of storing them in the designated client folder on the server, it means no one else has access to those files. Chaos ensues.
I believe our mailboxes at work are limited to about 15 megs, although a few of us got bumped to 25 megs to handle some incoming files for a large project. A relatively small mailbox forces the users to save their attachments to the proper location.
As soon as you get rid of all the attachments, it actually becomes possible to store a couple years' worth of plain messages in your mailbox. Although I would (should) advocate saving the messages as PDFs and putting them in our client folders on the server.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
This is the stupidest "story" I've seen on slashdot. E-mail is nothing more than a front-end for a database. Certainly Google Mail uses a database to archive all of our e-mails and retrieve/sort them quickly. It's certainly a new paradigm for *accessing* the database than what we've been used to. But at the end of the day it's still just a front-end.
I have emails dating back to 1994. 'nuff said. :P
I use gmail like a permanent filesystem. I have important files in there. I have a daily journal I write to as email (to myself). And its dead easy to find everything.
What's nice about it is that I know it won't get wiped out by a bad hard drive or a os reinstall, I can access it pretty much anywhere with internet, and it will continue to get better without any work on my part. Trusting that google won't fuck anything up, the only downsides are the slowness of uploading larger files (and a max of 10MB), and the slight worry about personal information (I of course, perhaps naively, trust google with my info).
It's like christmas cards. You don't exactly want to throw them out right after reading them so you hold on to them for a little while.
Soon a little while becomes a while and a while becomes quite a while and soon you have a stack of cards that date back 4 or 5 years, Then the stack becomes so large, it takes longer to go sifting through them than to just chuck them on an ever growing pile.
I've got email that's 5 year old and I doubt I really need to hold on to any of them, but for me, it's more a matter of, well gee-whiz, I have to delete 600 emails.
And that's if I even think of deleting them which I confess doesn't enter my mind.
So for me, the fact that I hold on to them is more a matter of "well, I'm sure I'll eventually get around to deleting them, like when the sun stops producing heat". Spam is the one thing that gets the old delete key treatment right away.
I wasn't a manager and I never deleted anything, either. Sure, sometimes it was simply to protect myself, but there are a lot of other reasons to sace email.
Frankly, there is no reason to expect people to not retain just about everything. People look at a techie worrying outloud about diskspace liked they'd look at a bartender complaining about all that beer guzzling: just buy some more.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Of course, after having this pointed out to me it I realised -- "too late" -- that this should have been obvious to me, only I had never bothered to give it any thought.
My point is, thanks for reminding us all of this fact in an appropriate forum. Google fanboys may mod you down but, you raise a very important and relevant point that deserves consideration. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks so.
It would be cool if you could turn your GmailFS into a db storage type for MySQL.
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
Forwarding used to work in Hotmail, just not anymore.
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
"E-mail is a way of interacting not just with others, but also with yourself, " says Mr Harik, who is director of Googlettes (new Google services). Definition of interact: to act upon one another Can you really interact with yourself? I thought Google has a rigorous interview process.
We started here at work using http://www.zoe.nu./on each users workstation and enforcing smaller mailbox sizes. This has done several things beyond saving space. One Zoe is fantastic for searching, two the users are even more carefull to remove spam and three Zoe extracts tons of usefull details with each search!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
You. Are. Right.
Sorry, managed a double post there accidentally.
/. the only messageboard out there that doesn't allow you to edit or delete your post?
/. succeeds in spite of itself, not because of its design...
Why oh why is
Here we are in the bastion of OSS and cutting edge computer useage and the website interface is miles behind the competition. I often think that
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Its one thing to keep everything for a paper trail ( i do the same ) but its another to keep it all *active*.
Archiving is only responsible.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Let me borrow a gigadollar.
I'll pay you back 1000 dollars right away.
I use 3 gmail accounts as backup solution for one critical project.
Actually it's just one of the 5 places where I keep copy of the data, so if google decides to ban gmailfs, I still have 4 places to go if I need to retrieve the data from backup.
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
The bytes suffix on the end modify the SI Prefex to the powers of 2, therefore 1 Gigabyte = 1024 Megabytes. The SI powers of 10 were apprently introduced to thow us all off and make hard drives and such sound bigger than they really are.
trend of using inbox as a sort of personal database.
i heard that before. friend of mine had ~200M on our server, 199M of it spam - he was just too lazy to sort it out.
i don't know. this was funny back in the old days (tm). one was just fascinated by the possibilities. and you knew most of them folks personally.
but now, setting up and administering mailservers got somewhat boring. there was a fascination for me with BBSes and FTN style networks, then SMTP. but i don't have that much use for it now. if something is important, i get a call.
emails tend to pile up for a week or two, then i look at them. but everyone expects me to answer right away (i do too, if i write one).
sorry. call me outdated, but sometimes i like to punch certain people:
"hey i wanna send you my [pics|video|wav|...] of my [holiday|girlfriend|soccer game|blarp]! | heres the [.ppt|.pdf|.ps] of [meaningless]"
"ok, url? ftp?"
"hugh? i'll send it by email."
yes there is such a thing as uuencode or base64. but at twice the price.
damn, it really has become convenient. and yes, they called me a nerd, when i talked about "modem" and "i can talk to other people with my computer".
Between lables, filters and searching, gmails a pretty decent replacement for BBDB and emacs.
--Jimmy has fancy plans; and pants to match.
Outlook's poor handling of large mailboxes is really a very funny joke Microsoft played on windows users.
Every respectable mail client from pine through gmail allows you to save mail to folders other than "Inbox". Anyone who does not take advantage of this feature, and allows their inbox to grow to hundreds or more megabytes is a damned moron.
Inbox is for messages you have just received or otherwise still require your attention. If you got it four years back, it doesn't belong in your inbox.
When you get a magazine subscription via snail mail, do you leave your back issues out at streetside, clogging up the mailbox, or do you bring them in and store them in a rack or closet? Why would electronic mail be any different?
thats what i did, sick of the crappy service offered by my university, hate pop email provided by google, so i built my own imap server... works for me
every week or so I upload all my email to my gmail account for safe keeping, best of both worlds, i know my data is safe, but I can access it anywhere it's needed
The Answer
Monk called, he wants his neurosis back.
I worked for a company once that wanted to get rid of all server shares and replace them with e-mail folders. This, folks, is just wrong!
You know me, Marge! I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my shared documents AWAY from my email server!
The Unix filesystem is a versatile and sufficient database for personal mail and many other things. If you need more than that then you really should re examine you resource and protocol usage.
did he really call or write an email?
The metric system was codified before computers were measuring their data storage. Therefore, "mega" means 1000 and "giga" means 1,000,000.
Bitch at the dumb geeks who thought 1000=1024.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
I use a couple of webmail accounts as databases. The reason is accesibility, i.e. I can access my emails from almost anywhere. From home, work, the library, friend's place, and even internet cafes. Anywhere there is internet, I can access the data. Of course, I don't send/store CC or account numbers, or anything too personal in emails.
Remove the harddrive and plug in a fullsize IDE adaptor. Make it a slave or secondary drive in a desktop machine. You'll get a much more effective defrag this way because very little or none of the drive will be in use.
A less extreme version of this would be use a BART-PE CD to defrag the drive in-situ. If that doesn't work, then backup the data and reinstall.
The owner of the laptop is seriously asking for it if some maintenance isn't done to it ASAP.
Excellent!
When's the Windows port due for release?
Why are you laughing?
I can't remember the last time I made a choice of OS based solely on a one feature in my email client...
And, yes, I keep archived copies of my .pst files so they can't "accidentally" disappear from the server.
Does anyone know of a "modern" bbdb? (one that doesn't need emacs?).
e rt wingle.html
http://www.jwz.org/bbdb/
or better yet:
http://www.mozilla.org/blue-sky/misc/199805/int
"Uh-oh...It's a whooooole bunch of spaaaam!"
GET FREE APPLE STUFF!
I've got no idea why Microsoft took it upon themselves to reinvent email badly.
Google is more of an after the fact fix for something that's already broken. Even with good searching it's hard to find stuff because exact words often won't do. I'm sure that good organization in the first place would help.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
No, that's what http://www.bugmenot.com/ is for.
Gmail offering a free service with 1,000 megabytes (Mb) of storage
Gmail doesn't offer 1gig anymore. They offer 2.1gigs and the number is always increasing.
or else!
But I want it server-side, and with views showing up as virtual folders at the client side.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Yup, I've made good use of tagging in both iTunes and iPhoto. Pity it hasn't been so easy to tag my other files. I've also just adopted tagging for bookmarks too. It makes an amazing difference to your ability to find old bookmarks. The crucial thing is being able to use multiple tags for each item. Far better than the extremely limited system of organizing things in folders. It's astonishing how long it has taken people to figure out these simple things.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
I have, at various parts of my life, tried to keep a diary or notebook. This isn't because my life is particularly interesting (it isn't) but becuase I thought that it would just turn into a meaningless jumble if the days ran into weeks and years with no accounting.
It wasn't until recently that I discovered that my email archive was as much of a diary as I would ever have. It chronicled my interests, actions, choices, and desires. It is a record of my friendships and troubles. It followed my career, such as it is. Perhaps the growing sizes of mail archives corresponds to a shift in our culture from handwritten diaries to personal electronic chronicles. And, like diaries, these chronicles probably won't make sense to anybody 20 years from now except, perhaps, you.
Just a thought (or, perhaps half of one).
-- Scott
Why don't you?
nt
Seems a bit different from the gmail/hotmail/webmail approach, just intercepting storing your existing POP mail, rather than being a different mail account.
They did... the abbreviation for a mebibyte is MiB (= 2^20 bytes) as opposed to MB for megabyte (= 10^6 bytes)
I think we should all use nybbles.
"Respected" news organization (BBC) runs press release from microsoft verbatim!
2 1/195321 4&tid=149
see:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/
- This is a good thing
- it is an emergent property of email technology and the role of email in everyday life
- it happens because email forms a chain of events related to your life that maintains temporal and spatial relations of information
- this is good for finding things you might want again
- I think services like GMail need to expand on this idea and continue to add features that make email a better personal database -- searchable on more axies, and good at filtering out the noise
If you are interested, read my http://www3.telus.net/cgapeart/2005/04/email-as-pMore Caffeine. NOW
I have a filter set up that checks for
"From:kejaed@gmail.com" and "To:kejaed@gmail.com"
basically checking if I sent the message to myself. If this is the case, it's filed under the "notes to self" label. Quite handy, although searching for what I want usually gets me there too.
The article is already out of date. It was posted on the BBC on February 8th. Good to see Slashdot is keeping up witht the times. 1) Gmail is no longer invitation only. 2) Gmail is now 2 gig.
Web hosting that doesn't suck!Dreamhost
isn't the admin supposed to handle backups on a server?
Tech Public Policy stuff
I don't use gmail to send or receive emails. However, I have all of my email (home, work, school, personal domain) automatically forwarded there so I have an archive of every email I've received on every account. That way, from any browser on any computer, I always have access to that info in an easily searchable form.
Keep .mbx files down to 40 megs to prevent corruption
Tech Public Policy stuff
Oh yeah? I remember when BIOS couldn't support 2G. I remember when most computers didn't have hard drives. I remember when floppies were low density/360K. I remember punch cards. I remember when Babbage invented the mechanical computational engine.
OK, I lied about the last one. But I do remember Neal Stephenson fictionalizing it in the Baroque Cycle via Daniel Waterhouse...;)
and do evrything they can to put tight limits on it for employees' company email. They give it fancy names like Records Retention/Management, and tell us worker bees that it is just good housekeeping to keep from using up 'precious' disk space, but eventually the real concern comes out in the longer explanations - lawsuits that go digging for evidence.
... but I got the feeling that if someone went "oops - gee , lost it", and recovery efforts failed, oh well, but then be ready to be a sacrificial scapegoat - very mixed message.
It was very clear at a big drug company where I used to work, and they made no effort to hide the lawsuit fear. Don't keep records, including email, around one day longer than the policy specfied. We were "reminded" several times a year. They also did have to spell out an "official policy" that if a suit was in progress, and anyone was notified to retain all records that could have any bearing, then they better
And delete it off of there ASAP. :)
Anyone know how to do that?
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Tried it going from Windows Eudora to Evolution and later, to kmail via a script that allegedly worked... the mailboxes migrated, sort of, but the folders didn't.
I'm waiting for Eudora for Linux that's supposed to be coming out Real Soon Now to migrate my mail to Linux.
Tech Public Policy stuff
No, its a debate do you use 10^3 or 2^10 when describing data. In computers it has always been 2^10, it is only now that marketing to the unwashed masses where they use powers of 10. And btw your off by a scale of 1000 Mega is 10^6 (1,000,000) and Giga is 10^9 (1,000,000,000)
So if your girlfriend is willing to keep your notes in read-only format, and send you notes in the same format, then it'll protect you, or if your unindicted co-conspirator wants to stay unindicted, then you won't get an Ollie North what do you mean the email's backed up on optical WORM disks?!?!? surprise. But if your girlfriend cuts&pastes your email to her diary, she can later post it to alt.sex.ex-boyfriends.losers, and if your co-conspirator prints out emails because it's easier than reading small type on screen and then stores them in his file cabinet, you can still get busted later. Also, if the Feds hand a warrant to the privacy server operator requiring them to hand over any keys they have for mail to or from you, and they have any keys they haven't already deleted, you lose, but any keys they've already deleted are gone. (I think they also did a version of the keyserver for companies that wanted to maintain them in-house.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Have you seen some of the comments here? I'm sure some people would love to be able to delete their posts after trolling or just making an ass of themselves, to get rid of the evidence.
- Copy the offending
.PST file to an external disk (either USB or a file server or DVD-R or whatever), - delete the original, which will leave you enough space to defrag the disk successfully,
- defrag it,
- then copy the
.PST back from the external drive.
It's especially valuable becauseI try to avoid this problem by splitting off my .PST files every 3-6 months when they get too big. I prefer to keep longer periods of time per file for simplicity, but keeping files under ~650MB means I can burn them to CDROM.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
However, it's fine for non-personal email such as high-volume public mailing lists. I use gmail to receive my subscription to NANOG, the North American Network Operators List, which also means that I can participate in Internet infrastructure discussions without using either my work email address (where there can be bureaucratic issues like conflict of interest) or my main personal home email address, which is already in too many easily-harvested mailing list archives. Gmail's mail indexing isn't extremely sophisticated, but it works pretty well for this sort of discussion list.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I can second that. The "recovery tools" are useless. EmailRepair, PST2gb, FileRepair - tried them all == no good. Once the PST is gone you can pretty much kiss your data goodbye
It's been very useful for helping maintain her system - when Somethine Bad happens to her PC, whether it's spyware or bit rot or hard drive problems, whichever child is nearby can just format the disk, reinstall whatever generation of Windows is handy, get a new AOL coaster (I picked one up in the hotel lobby last trip :-), and she can log in and all her bookmarks, email, buddy lists, etc. are all there right away. We did have to buy an actual install-from-scratch version of XP once, because she'd lost the old Windows ME disk, but WinME was such a loss that scraping it off the disk and getting rid of Compaq's "helpful" system backup software were a pleasure anyway.
Meanwhile, *my* mom's still happily using her decade-old Mac Performa 630 with System 7.x, Netscape and Eudora, keeps her data on disk as text files that she backs up to floppy, had to buy some more RAM a few years ago so a new printer driver would work reliably, and her only real problem is that her local Mac repair guy retired and no longer makes house calls. It's much more reliable, but she's never been afraid of technology.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The bad thing with it is that it doesn't even delete stuff when you tell it to. Your deleted emails remain in the file even after you tell Outlook to delete them forever.
Actually, I don't think Gmail allows you to create folders (or subfolders off of inbox). At least I cannot find this feature. I think their goal is for you to use the search feature if you want to find a particular email as well as use their "conversation" feature.
To be honest, I'm having a hard time getting used to the "non-tree" layout. I like my data to be visually organized. With the search feature, it's potentially organized.
I only mod up parents of "mod parent up" posts...
If you've been collecting emails from a long time, reading your oldest emails are really interesting, a bit like time travel. I checked mail from ~9 years ago, was surprised how immature some subjects were, but was impressed with the writing, I used to write better...
I'd really be interested in my current emails 30 years from now. I wonder if the email companies can 'hide' older mail, and sell them to you years later at a high cost, or to your relatives when you die.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Don't pick up the phone. I don't want to waste time talking to you when I could be getting work done.
I definately don't want to see you in person unless it's a social visit and I happen to have a moment of freetime.
I want you to list out, in written detail, exactly what you need so I can reply, in written detail, with useful information. Be clear, consise, and detailed.
I plan to pull up this email next week when you claim we never discussed the topic. I'll kindly remind you that we did discuss the topic and you agreed to take care of your business. If I asked to record the phone call, you'd probably have a panic attack.
If you really have something important to discuss, you can write it down. Spoken words are meaningless and forgettable.
Phone calls are interruptions that require my full attention. Emails can be replied to as my time becomes available.
I always wanted to put my email into a database. Hierarchical categories don't scale well. Often I want things in multiple categories. That is hard to do with hierarchies. Having a branch for each factor is a road to a viney disaster. I want to a good query system also.
Table-ized A.I.
1) The people who originally decided that there were 1024 bytes in a kilobyte were unwise in choosing their prefix. The meaning of "kilo" was well established, and they disregarded it. The confusion is their fault.
2) Whoopsy! My bad! you're absolutely right. Long week.
If the marketing to the unwashed masses yielded substantial inaccuracies, I'd probably agree with you. Since it's not substantial, and follows a well-established standard (called the Systeme Internationale) I don't have an issue with it.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
"Why on earth would a person need 2 gigabytes for email? If it is a company, they must have their own storage, nobody would want to trust a free email account for buisness."
Trust all external repositories...unless Larry owns the company.
http://www.itmanagersjournal.com/article.pl?sid=05 /04/22/0340218
"How companies should handle Sarbanes-Oxley compliances"
2121 MB now, and constantly increasing. See http://gmail.google.com/
So, now-a-days, there is no stress. Conflicting requirements (via-email or phone) are no longer an issue of "why didn't you do XYZ", but rather, just more billable hours..., umm, I mean, "Sure I can do that!".
Logical errors [in conflicting/changing requirements] don't phase most clients. I point out the conflict (in a nice way) and most just say, "oh, well, just do blah"... (selecting what most magicians would call a "forced" card...)
[/. user suddenly gets a phone call and loses interest in finishing this post]
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
They use labels instead of folder. Same idea, but you can slap multiple labels on a particular message. I didn't like it at first, but as I got used to it, I'm liking it much more.
I had the tagging insight come to me after I decided to put some thought into .mp3 collection.
.mp3? How would I ensure that the filenames remained the same if I did that?
/vegetables and /female.sexuality
I saw people putting mp3s into different folders. Some sorted their files into folders holding everything from 1 artist or group. (looking into their collection over P2P).
Others sorted only certain albums into their own folders.
But if you think about it that isn't any good. What if a song is on a collection album but also from a certain artist with their own folder? Should I make an operating system link from one folder to the other or make a duplicate
The solution to that problem was playlists. Put all your songs into 1 big folder. You can give them a certain names like artist.-.album.-.song.name.mp3
That's no problem, as long as they're all in 1 folder. Then make playlists for certain categories of songs. Make playlists for a certain artist, music style, album, filetype (.ogg) etc.
You look at the playlists as a sort of folder. But unlike operating system folders. A file in a playlist can be in several other playlists as well. You don't have to keep multiple copies of the same mp3 in different folders. The mp3 in the different playlists are all pointing the same file so there's no synchronisation problem either, just make sure you pick a good name for the mp3 before you put it in any playlist because you can't change the filename later without having to update all your playlists along with it.
Now the same problem exists for other files on your HD. I sometimes would like to keep a file in 2 different folders. For example a webpage that is relevant to my research on both
In the current situation, I'd have to make either a duplicate of that file OR I make a shortcut/symbolic link from 1 of the folders to the other. But then I'd absolutely HAVE to make sure I don't change any folder names or locations ever again because then the shortcut would not point to the file anymore.
I can think of 2 or 3 solutions to this problem but they all start with putting ALL your files in the same giant folder:
1. You can implement folders like your mp3 playlists. In other words, the collection of files in a certain folder are stored in a playlist style "folder file". Instead of pointing to the name of a file, each file will have it's own numerical ID given by the OS and the "playlist folders" will have a list of IDs of files that are in this folder.
2. Every file will have meta information/tags that tell the OS, this file should be displayed in this(tag), this(tag) and this(tag) folder. The difference with situation 1. is where the extra meta information is stored. Not in playlists but in the files themselves (just like mp3 tags/meta info like artist, genre etc.) The problem with this is probably that, in order for the OS to show you what's in a folder, it'll have to sweep every fucking file in the giant folder first. But maybe there are advantages.
3. A database on top of the classical filesystem, or instead of it.
I know Apple has implemented this functionality in MacOS X as spotlight but I don't know how. And they also still have the traditional folders. Another great reason to get a Mac but I want to have it in a copyleft operating system as well. GMail isn't good enough, I want the option of using it on my own private personal PC too.
Can anybody tell me which of those 3 solutions is the best? And would it be in the form of a new program on top of the filesystem, or in the filesystem itself? Whatever the implementation, access to the files should definitely only be controlled by the kernel only. That's because every file action can have consequenses for other playlists/tags and to make sure everything gets updated nicely, it needs to be administered by a central program, the kernel maybe in combination with a single daemon/background process.
P.S.
- -- Truth addict for life.
because email made our IQ drop 10 points...
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
The Unix filesystem is a versatile and sufficient database for personal mail and many other things. If you need more than that then you really should re examine you resource and protocol usage.
That is hogwash. File-systems are 1960's "navigational" technology, which didn't scale well as far as organizing and finding stuff back then and still don't. Grep is a hacky query tool at best. Databases already have the "atoms" (elements) parsed out (separated) so that parse problems are less likely. It does not make sense to keep doing the same parsing out of atoms over and over for each query. That is not logical. And, let's see how grep handles joins and many-to-many relationships.
Table-ized A.I.
I am not interested in e-mail as database, what would be really cool is mining e-mail for patterns.
I am not talking about "mentions viagra => probably spam" patterns.
I want to mine for correlations. For example maybe there's some patter between the time of the year and whom I talk to. Maybe in the spring I talk more to my ex's and in the fall to old college friends. I would not be conciously aware of that but it would be an interesting insight into a personality - why do I do that?
Is there a pattern between an e-mail I get from my boss to the tone I use in an e-mail to a family member right after. Maybe that would indicate some subconcious response to work.
Of course I have years worth of e-mail in Outlook folders. Hell, my mom defended herself against a lawsuit once by having saved e-mails from her old job. But besides just having it for refference (which of course is very useful but rather trivial) I want to seek patterns I am unaware of.
If you think about it, your e-mails probably have a more thorough history of you than a blog would, because you may tell one person some aspect of your business like and another person some aspect of your sex life, and you would not want either on a public blog, but years later it may be cool to glance back and have some meta representation of what was going on in your life.
Especially after the statute of limitations expires.
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
Use labels. Set up filters that archives and labels emails, and you won't create a mess of your inbox.
Too much work just to save some porn.
You mean too much work just to save everyone else's pr0n, right?
Tech Public Policy stuff
I'm still waiting for Gmail to let me upload my Outlook.pst file.
Somebody has done it, sort of. GmailFS is a mountable Linux filesystem that uses Gmail as a storage medium.
gmail allows you to 'label' emails into groups, everything is in one big 'folder', but you just click the link of your group at the site and it brings up all the mail in that group.
:)
you can tag each email with a drop down menu above the email, or you can set up filters to autofile it into groups
if you dont want it showing in your inbox, you could archive it so it would only show up in searches
Ever have to deal with a bloated and corrupted .pst file?
No, but I have to deal with a bloated and .pst girlfriend once a month. I recommend Midol...
Yep. I've been doing that for years. I tried all sorts of applications designed for note-taking and organization, and always ended up making "quick notes" in my e-mail client that I would intend to "file properly later". After a while, I realized that I never really copied over the information into anything else, because it was easier to find in my e-mail client (Eudora).
I get a lot of realy large email and need about 5 .pst file a year for the company wide outlook system. its desparately annnoying when you fill a .pst file (somewhere over 1.6GB, a value which I use as a good working limit).
.pst files or a means of transferring them to an indexable database. My home system has just moved to mac & OSX, a few email teething problems, but very comfy now, and I am looking forward to getting Tiger up and running with its index/search abilities, but I will still be stuck with .pst reality of work.
.pst data structures - I need the structured folders in the .pst files.
One thing I am always keeping a look out for is a non-MS package that can read
Any suggestions for (non-html conversion type) a database system that can handle huge amounts of emails?? and able to import
My IMAP server structure has folders somewhat like this (folder.subfolder)
Now take Opera 8 (released just the other day). It renders this structure totally incorrectly. The folder 'tree' shows this all in the same level:
Becky also suffers from this inability. Thunderbird my memory is a little fuzzy on (I don't like it) but last time I used it I don't think it displayed these folders correctly either.
Magogany is the client I use currently and it renders the folder tree perfectly.
Maybe I'm off base and we are supposed to be discussing POP3 only here but asking the every day joe to use a client to organize their mail when clients doesn't even show IMAP folders correctly is a joke. It's just frustrating.
"Magogany" and "clients doesn't" are definately signs I need to put down my breakfast while commenting on slashdot.
I think saving every email is more about having a a receipt than having a personal database...at least as far as businesses are concerned.
"I contacted you about XYZ on September 13th 1999 and here is an email ( my receipt ) from you acknowledging that you were made aware of this issue"
Along the same lines of having a receipt is sending an email to a known slow responder while visibly CCing others on the email.
"Dave...I am asking you, in FRONT OF EVERYONE about this issue, so you had better respond in a timely way."
However, this is just what people used to do with intra-office memos, except now they don't kill a tree ( just burn some oil for the electricity ) to distribute the message.
What I find interesting is that in the day of hard copy intra-office memos people were always careful about what they wrote in those things, but people will not hesitate to engage in a pissing contest in an email exchange at the office.... where everyone has a receipt.
I USED to have all of my email saved back to when I first crawled out of the ooze and finally figured out how to use one of these new-fangled computing-machines for something beyong being a glorified television set. I had a ton of stuff, including those emails that were sort of sentemental.
Then some fuckers broke into my apartment and stole my machine. Being a moron, I hadn't yet backed it all up anywhere. very, very sad.
Lesson: back your shit up.
s'wut i sed.
I work in a VC firm and 2 of the managing partners have 30K+ email messages in their inboxes. The problem was finding things and the savior was X1.
FYI, this works perfectly in Apple Mail on OS X.
Sig Nature
Scaling PST Files at work? You know it ...
... 5.8 Gigs of email storage per user.
I've seen 3 Gig Outlook PST files where I work, and 1 Gig seems to be the norm.
I'm currently in the process of spec'ing out a new email server, so what did I do?
Take that Gmail.
Handy product for offices where people want to semi-permanently store their email without having them make .pst files ( for Outlook users ) all over the place that become a pain to support, or try and store sensitive company information on a external ( to the company ) email server ( GMail ).
m ent-exchange.htm
Here is a link that gives an overview, I think it only works with MS Exchange/MS Outlook setups, though. -> http://www.veritas.qassociates.co.uk/email-manage
At home I just back up my system ( including email folders ) and then delete whatever I don't immediately need as I can always get it back later. Oh, in the case where you run your email server, 2GB is not a big deal, 100-400GB is not out of the question, depending on homw much drive space YOU feel your mailserver needs for storage. Same thing for the client-side email storage.
I can't afford a sig!
...just a thought.
Mod parent down. Link NSFW and does not match description.
Or has a finite amount of time to devote to sorting email.
Yep. I break my mail archives down as follows:
1. Junk mail (saved for training future spam filters)
2. Not-so-junk mail - ends up in a 'delete' folder and I archive it off annually
3. Work mail - gets moved to an annual archive folder
Less places to find stuff = easier to search. And the net result is usually that I can pull an item up faster then if I had sorted it out to infinite sub-folders.
I guess if I still had a monthly trip to NYC on the train (a 3-4 hour trip), I'd still have my 'sorting' time and my e-mails wouldn't be crammed into a yearly folder. But, since I don't travel monthly now, I no longer have that 'sorting' time.
Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
I used the IMAP mailbox as an action item queue, and didn't remove messages until I acted on them. Of course, it wasn't always obvious whether an email required action on my part, so a lot of messages stayed in the queue until I had a chance to read them carefully. If I didn't pare down the mailbox on a regular basis, it could easily grow to thousands of messages.
I probably got more email than most of my co-workers, but email glut still seemed to be a problem for everybody. I once sent out a mailing to a long list of engineers, asking them to review release notes relating to their software. I didn't spam them -- I went to a bit of trouble to individualize the emails so each engineer would get a request specific to his particular area. Not a single response. This wasn't due to indifference -- I gave up on email and contacted the engineers in person or by phone, every single one was helpful and generous with his or her time. They just got so much email, that mine had no hope of attracting their attention.
I remember when floppies really were, um, floppy, because they were 8" (and 800K, I think).
Hm. Wikipedia agrees with me.