Slashdot Mirror
Cross Skilling Across Multi-OS Platforms?
drtheman asks: "I have been working in the IT industry for the last 10 years, 7 of those as a UNIX system administrator. I have been noticing over the last year or two that companies are becoming very pedantic about specific skills that a UNIX sysadmin should have. Most troubling for myself is the so called multi-skilled UNIX/NT administrator.
It's a given that any seasoned UNIX admin should have *some* Windows knowledge, and cross skilling is something that shouldn't be balked at. However, after coming from large enterprise environments, where the UNIX boys do the UNIX stuff and the NT guys do the Windows stuff, I just find it a little troubling that if I don't adapt with certifications in these platforms I may become unemployable. Do other enterprise admins think that this is too much for us to take on, and companies are just expecting more bang for their buck these days? I can understand that these multi-skilled people are needed in the smaller shops, but I would like to know how it would work effectively in larger ones."
In any size enterprise, it shows that you are adaptable and resilient.
;-)
Oh yeah, FP!
pedantic - Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details. (from dictionary.com)
If you are using that word you are working with the same folks that use paradigm. (they are even similar in meaning.
Sorry.. If either one of the words came up in an interview, I would think twice about employing you.
In reality, the market is tough these days and you do need to be focused.
BTW - if you are a truely seasoned 'administrator', it really does not matter too much about the OS. Seasoned means that you have been there and done that. No worries right?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
I myself am coming from the opposite direction (Microsoft guru, *nix acolyte), and from what I've seen, a decently cross-skilled admin can pretty much write their own ticket. I wouldn't go so far as to say that if you aren't cross-skilled, you will eventually be unemployable...there will always be work for an admin that's competent enough, especilly a Unix admin like yourself. But a cros-skilled admin brings much more to the table...not just for the obvious reason of being able to work on either platform, but because they can work on both platforms. The point I'm trying to get across here is that Unix/Microsoft interoperability is a big matzah ball in today's tech world, and an admin that can understand how Windows and Unix play together (and why they occasionally don't) will be valued much more...in essence, the cross-skilled tech is worth more than the sum of his parts.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
These are usually recommendations on job sites for resumes that companies most likely will toss out because the guy hiring "knows some guy."
I honestly can say I don't have a certification in any regards, I have experience, and "I know people."
IMHO, 9 times out of 10, knowing somebody will get you farther than another bullet point on a resume
Error 407 - No creative sig found
Just like anywhere else, you must adapt. If you think this is bad, try being a tax attorney.
The HR people have a checklist of skills (or worse, certifications and buzzwords) but don't actually know what the job requires.
The shoe is on the other foot for me. I am a Windows administrator, and I am working on my Linux/Unix chops to better my job. At the level I am currently at (network admin at a medium-large sized church), however, I barely have an opportunity to work on Unix (on a few Unix/Linux boxes to work with v. 90+ Windows). So it is a struggle to properly balance my workload while still getting educated and working on ways to use other OS to improve our system.
If you require your unix admins to maintain an NT skill set, you can migrate to an an entirely windows based environment, and since you're a large enterprize, you can make microsoft provide you a site license for less for dropping unix in favor of windows, because they can then issue press releases about the successful adoption of windows as a unix replacment....
well, it's only a theory, but I've had crazier ones.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
A good Unix admin will ALWAYS be able to find work, especially with the larger corporations, where they EXPECT you to specialize, instead of being a generalist in the field.
I work for one of the largest companies in the world (no names mentioned), and they are actively recruiting both sides, but not both in one person.
Getting certified in other operating systems, major software packages or databases is never a bad idea, but it is not crucial.
Just a thought from a guy in the trenches...
O
I'm a Linux administrator, and when one new job appear my IT Director ask me of my windows skills. I said to him that I known something about Active Directory and installing web servers, not so much like a MCSE or MCSA. He told me that's enough and hired me, this lesson tell me that the business is looking for one specialist that known a little about other OS. That's all folks.
http://www.michel.eti.br
...and I read the microsoft newsgroups, visit online forums, irc channels, read ms articles, run windows, etc. These days there're lots of windows/unix/linux machines, and the days of "one big box doing everything" are gone, it's no suprising that companies are searching experts who has good skills of *all* plaftorms.
Almost everything boils down to a matter of syntax
I realize this is the simplistic view, but it has helped me in my daily jump between Windows, MacOS X and various Unix platforms.
what happens if you only know unix and they switch completely to nt? what happens if you know unix and more nt than many of the nt specialists?
always mosh clockwise
We must be hopeful of the possibility that those companies which want to mix NT with UNIX will poison themselves, and lose. The drag of NT licensing and unreliability will put them at a competitive disadvantage. The money sink of "certification" will cause companies to send their people to seminars and training to learn how to take certification tests, which is a bottomless pit of money wastage. Meanwhile, companies with UNIX/Linux/etc will have a significant advantage as their developers generate code that helps the business instead of paying license fees to MS and sending their developers off with certification fees in hand to give to parasite certification companies who exist only to collect fees.
Try again next time.
What they're trying to tell you is, if you're a 12th level Unix Mage, it wouldn't hurt to pick up a 2nd level XP Paladin. If your party's level 15 XP Paladin dies, the party still needs the Paladin's basic skills, like light network healing and saving patch all infected computers roll abilities. You can keep working on getting your level 18 Unix Mage, with the Write kernel from scratch Feat, but you're gonna have to make some sacrifices for the party to keep it moving forward.
moox. for a new generation.
This is a common problem for anyone in the IT industry. As you become more and more specialized, you run the risk of limiting where you are useful.
For example, I'm a network engineer, working on my CCIE. There aren't many places that need someone of a CCIE-level skillset to exclusively do networks.
Now, I also have considerable security, Windows, and Unix experience, which helps, a lot, but almost all of my experience in the last 4 years has been limited to routing and switching.
It really all depends on what you want out of your career. If you're like me, and want to stay in a specialized field, it's great. For someone that wants more breadth than depth, not so great.
I am always surprised how narrow minded UNIX-only admins are. The way to succeed in the IT Admin game is to be able handle the most hardware, platforms and operating systems. The more you learn, the more you earn. Your UNIX experience will pay off in Windows administration as most UNIX admins are used to "getting their hands dirty" whereas a lot of Windows admins I meet are "Next, OK, Apply, Cancel" kind of guys. Plus Windows is becoming more command line oriented (Thank God!).
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Shouldn't we have to be MUCH MORE willing to accept that there are girls in IT? we start by accepting this fact, and being less and less "boy" centric, and many will come ;)
Carlos Niebla
Why? Because in companies it's VERY rare that there are only Unix boxes. Well it's more probably that there are only windows boxes. In any case, helping a user to get rid of his windows viruses (WITHOUT reformatting) will get you points.
See, you'll have to troubleshoot a windows box once in a while. You need to be prepared for it. But don't worry! There are EXCELLENT technical articles at Microsoft at how to rescue data from your computer. Like using the Recovery console to restore a corrupted registry, for example.
So yes. You better study windows.
I know Windows decently, Mac and Unix quite well. I've been asked to several interviews specificly because I can do two of them (Normaly they want Mac or Unix (so far not both), and a little bit of Windows as well).
I'm not certified in anything. I choose to actually know the subject than to have a pretty piece of paper. Besides, I have a colour printer for when they do care about pretty papers.
windows admins just press the reboot button.. that is most of what you need to know..
getting a certification? certs are generally worthless, and in an interview, you should be able to pick up on the vibe of the person.. we have hired certified guys who have no critical thinking and no flexibility or adaptibility... 'generally', we look down on certs at my work..
"real life" experience is by far preferred..
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
It's difficult to say. On one hand, you risk taking a specialist and by asking them to diversify, you may be rendering them unable to continue to advance their area of specialty, and on the other hand, you may suddenly have an admin that's versed in more than one environment. As with anything it's a tradeoff. But if I were you, I'd ask for a raise upon certification. Or make them pay for the crashcourse camp for certification. =D
I think most companies with separate folks for unix and NT admins find the two teams hate each other, and therefore can't work together, just like the software. Assuming that you love yourself, if you have both skills, then you can make unix and NT interoperate, which is what these businesses are looking for. Or you can always try to install love among the unix and NT admins. Once they love each other, they can work together, and their software will too.
I once had a signature.
Cross skilling is a definite must. Being able to manage the *nix servers, keep the J2EE containers going, manage the network, address security issues, etc, even if only on a decent enough level to be able to assist the *real* experts in those areas in interfacing into your area of expertise is a real plus.
:) ).
However, I've noticed that almost everyone I know in IT who knows jack about Windows has been made unhappy by that knowledge. Maybe I'm just to far out in enterprise land (where NOTHING important is EVER put on a Windows box), but Windows knowledge leads to having to address all of the stupid annoying issues Windows boxes sprout. I'd far rather spend my time architecting useful solutions to hard problems in the enterprise level stuff than have to fight with the Windows virus dejure (at least on the desktop, network level mitigation can be fun).
If you need to cross skill pick up some background in J2EE containers, or Oracle DBA skills, or go pick up a CCIE and learn somethings about the network. Not only do those add more earning power than Windows skills, but they don't make you want to slit your wrists.
(Proud to have had almost know Windows expertise since 1993
maybe your dog's just confused by you buggering it everyday?
Its not so much if you've got skills these days, its if you can get skills, fast.
Mad skills are one thing. Going from zero to total competence is another thing. Focusing on strictly authority-based skills assessment are a sure-fire way to be left behind. Tech changes too fast for this to be an effective mode any more. The Meta-Skill of Skilling Oneself Quick is where its at.
Work on the Meta-Skills. Take any system, bend it to your will, use it for the task at hand. Accept no less.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
If grandmas and 9 year olds can learn Windows, you can too.
that is the best comment I have read in a while..
cheers!!!!!
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
As much as I hate Windows, I have to know it. There are many add on and other related products out there that your companies non technical offices buy and you have to make it work. Knowing Windows in addition to UNIX is essential. Windows is not really all that different then UNIX to make ir difficult. In fact, some of Windows limitations make it easier to learn then Linux. Certifying in Both? Questionable. HR departments need to let the technical areas do the selecing and rely less on using certs to weed out people. I have found that certs DO help you, but only if you also KNOW the info. Wallpaper will only get you some interviews. Having a impressive resume in addition to know people in the industry helps alot.
Gorkman
Most guys in our shop have one programming language and platform they work on and one or two vendor products.
My unit writes Java J2EE on Unix and Windows, VB.NET and C# apps, Still have some VB 6 apps to maintain, work on a product that is a derivative of VB. We admin several large server applications and do much of our own sys-adminning on each of the server boxes. And we even have some COBOL / JCL stuff on the Mainframe to take care of. I'm sure I'm leaving some languages and platforms out.
Java and J2EE or .NET are pretty big each on their own. Learning anything in depth is basically up to us in our free time.
Kinda sucks but it is also kind of fun sometimes because there is always something new. As long as things are working fine in production and we don't have project managers bitching at us for anything we're pretty happy.
Conserve Oil, Recycle, Boycott Walmart
To be fully rounded, you should be fluent in multiple OS. To deliver many commercial apps, you'd have to know more than Unix/Linux alone. And man, Windows is a whole lot better these days. When I compare 2003 to NT 4 to Unix/Linux in the areas of remote support, app deployment and managing multiple machines, the gap has really closed. Heck, you can even do stuff via text files now on Windows. How 20th century of them.
If you are lucky enough to get work, and all you have to do is study 15 days for the damn wonky MS cert crap, STFU and just do it, for f-sake.
It means you'll be able to implement Samba solutions if they're needed. It means that you'll be able to make your Apache server work for folks that want to use Front Page. It means that you'll be able to solve a thousand other sticky issues that come up that are bigger than just keeping a server running and secure.
Can you get a job without those skills? Sure. Are you more marketable with them? Absolutely.
Custom, hands-free Linux installs. Instalinux
Where I've found that I've been able to demonstrate the most value is in those situations where we need to get something done on a platform that nobody on the team has used before. I don't have a whole lot of fear of alternate platforms -- their really just new learning opportunities. Sure, I have assumptions and preferences about what one can do better than another, but these become more educated opinions the more I have to work in alternative platform contexts. For example, I have to drive a continuous integration project for some development teams that use C# and .Net, when most of my experience has been with Sun Java and Web Services. I recognize that I don't know diddly about how to do the job under the new conditions, but I'll have more value (I hope (crosses fingers)) when I get to the end because of what the challenge will force me to learn.
As a rule, I'd say that being adaptable, and willing to accept the challenge of learning new stuff has been more important to me (and how I think I'm being valued) than being (and staying) the uber-733+ lord of one platform or technology. Then again, I also have a lot more resources to draw upon at the current job. At the last one, I'd have to buy the necessary books and learn it all on my own. Were I still there, I might think differently.
Hope it helps,
.. pa-ra-bo-la, pa-ra-bo-la, 2 pi R, 2 pi R, where's your latus rectum, where's your latus rectum, 2 pi R
Just say NO!
Using Windows NT servers is a symptom of lack of technical knowledge in a company.
Windows servers tend to be unreliable security risks, so you're getting yourself into a double headache by supporting them: not only do you have to deal with the servers, but you also have to deal with the corporate mentality which approved them in the first place.
So my approach: just say "NO!" and don't work for companies where you're expected to support Windows servers.
Then you don't need cross-platform knowledge and you don't get the headaches.
Also, "pedantic" and "paradigm" are not similar in meaning.
As for the actual content of your post, you can be a seasoned administrator and not know the details of each OS. Or does you know how to run the ENIAC?
For those Windows folks who would like to learn *nix, but find they aren't getting those opps @ work should install a server @ home and use a tool like webmin to administrate it. Sure, webmin won't give you the command line experience, but it will allow you to see how linux works.
It's certainly kept me employed in this market. HR drones & their stupidity aside, having decent knowledge of both Windows & UNIX can be a good thing because 1)it can weed out the zealots and 2)it shows that you have the interest in the subject at hand.
:)
Besides, a lot of issues that pop up *are* cross platform issues, and instead of saying "Oh, that's because Windows sucks." you can say "Windows sucks at that, and here is why: ""
I'm working in a heavy OS X environment with a bunch of Solaris boxes, a handful of Linux boxes, and a bunch of Windows boxes. We have a full time Windows guy, I handle the rest. I also have a Windows admin background and as a result, it's a lot less of a hassle to work with the Windows guy to address issues.
Hopefully this made some sense.. after all, it's 4:15pm on Friday..
In smaller businesses or development houses, it's simply a monetary issue. You want to hire one guy who can do it all, or at least do it all 90% of the time and find a creative solution the other 10%. You only have to pay one person as opposed to two. It's the same in creative houses. Nowadays if you want to be a web developer on your own or in a small house you have to be able to do everything from HTML to PHP to PERL to Flash/Actionscript and maybe even MySQL. Since the bottom fell out of the market, companies just can't afford to hire 5 experts where 1 guy with medium knowledge will suffice.
If you really want to be the one dealing with every virus infection, every trojan and worm, every Active Directory problem, every TCP stack weakness, and every driver incompatibility from 3rd party vendors which prevents the receptionist from printing her neice's birthday photos in portrait mode like she always used to be able to, then sure... just let it slip that you might know a thing or two about windows and you'll soon have more work coming at you than you can possibly make time for.
But is that really how you want to be spending your life energy? Squandering your talents to deal with stupid windows issues, always putting out fires, dealing with bugs and rarely accomplishing anything meaningful whatsoever?
Specialize in *nix, and that factor will weed out the lower quality employers. And to answer your question: NO, you won't be less employable since the *nix world is also continuing to grow.
If you do happen to know anything about Windows, keep that a closely guarded secret - ESPECIALLY WITH RELATIVES or you'll eventually begin hate computers as much as nontechnical people do.
Once that happens, regardless of where you're working or what you're doing, you'll start to hate your computer job too. Don't let that happen! Eschew Windows, and you'll keep your experience of computers enjoyable.
It's a man-eat-man world out there in the free market. If you can't live up to the standards, then you'll get cut down to size. Either that means you'll be unemployed, or you'll work at a very low-paying job. But on the other hand, if you can cut it and muster the balls to make it in life, you'll be forever wealthy and successful. That applies equally well to a UNIX master learning Windows, or a Windows master learning UNIX.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Ever wonder how much money companies waste by demanding 25 different techology skills for a job and then not being able to fill it for months on end?
I'm pretty much against unions, but maybe sys admins should have one...
What I've noticed in the past 5 years or so is that the average starting salary for a UNIX admins (and other highly skilled computer jobs) has dropped considerably... its disturbing. It is a HIGHLY skilled job that the wigs in large or small corporations just don't understand. It's not as if the market is flooded with employable sys admins, either.
I've never had a problem with NT... I think it is a fine server... but... (I don't know) is it still even being supported? Can you even buy NT anymore? Does it run on new servers? As far as what you said about the split between Windows and UNIX admins, that is my experience, too, only... if you have UNIX servers, why bother with windows? The windows admins are there for the user boxes at the desks... and most UNIX admins I know don't like to travel far from their desks and espescially not to interact with the (yuk!) user... if the UNIX admin is doing his job well, he never has to interface with the user. I look at Windows admins like I look at sales people... they know how to get along with people... they are more socially adept... and good for them, because I don't want to do that.
There was an ad in the paper for a job that I laughed at... it was for a Windows administrator, and they REQUIRED a Computer Science bachelors degree, and it started at 21K. WTF!! CS grads used to be able to start out doing, well, computer science at 65K fresh out of school... and now they have to shlub along as a windows admin for peanuts? This trend in the economy of devaluing high tech jobs is getting ridiculous... I don't care how many Indians can dance on the head of a pin for half as much, that work isn't easy, and it isn't cheap to get that education... my God, holding a figgin' stop/slow sign at a road work site pays better!
so, personally speaking, I think UNIX admins should bond together to prevent such a bullying from employers and industry, get their old starting salaries back (say, those of 5-8 years ago), and stop this UNIX/Windows admin BS. Windows admins would benefit too...
The Admin and the Engineer
Spend £1000 on a pc with NT, some books and a net connection and spend a couple of hours a day for 2 or 3 weeks learning the basics and checking stuff out. It's not too much to ask, seeing as you'll be using the knowledge to make the money back soon enough?
Am I the only one who read that as "Cross Skiing"?
Though, on the other hand, Cross Skilling would certainly feel like a super slalom or something.
Almost everything boils down to a matter of syntax
:)
In case of Windows it actually boils down to being ready for most bizzare sh*t you cant even imagine.
Like installing buggy USB driver f*cking up DHCP client's ability to renew IP address. Or installing desktop skinning software causing Windows to start failing installation of virtual network adapters. Or that disabling (certain) personal firewall software actually not having a full effect on a traffic until the next reboot.
Truly entertaining stuff. Far more lively than just mastering command syntax
3.243F6A8885A308D313
that don't happen. Its best that you are not working or getting inerviews from most companies, as companies that do alot interviewing are to treat you just like girls treat guys in bars. Next next , stop, next , next...etc etc. Working for company is like a relationship, which is why contracting is great sometimes, no commitments, beyond technical and financial scope of things.
... anyway.
You don't really want to be running around swatting Windows viruses for userbase of say 1500 workstations. Hackproofing and in general being resposnsible for other people. If you can't find work, move to new place, update your social network, consider heading out to conferences.
I have rule about dating and relationships of other kinds. The best jobs come by recommendation, best dates come by contact through the friend. What I mean you will be negotiating a less promiscuos partner, that would treat you nice(company or girlfriend)..(boyfriend haha)
Anyway, don't sweat the cross certification. Companies that hire by technical interviews and what have you got on your resume, are most likely miserable to work for since they would try to run you into the ground, until you are layed off or go away yourself.(E.A. style.) Contrieved things are usually terrible in nature.
Peace out yo.
Want to expand your Linux skills & save the church some bucks? If you have a chance, purchase Penguin in the Pew by Donald Parris. I volunteer edited it & its a quality publication. I am no way affiliated with the author nor do I receive any monetary gain from the book.
Description:
Penguin in the Pew clears up the confusion about the terms "free" and "open source", addresses the challenges of hardware compatibility, software interoperability, and whether a migration is really more expensive than an upgrade. Readers will learn why and how they should migrate to the GNU/Linux operating system. Additionally, Penguin in the Pew connects readers to the growing community of Christians who use, develop and provide technical support for GNU/Linux and other free and open source applications. The book's author, Don Parris, invites fellow Christians to join in a dialogue where the GNU/Linux "philosophy" and Christian values intersect.
A few years ago, I found out the hard way that many companies are requiring their IT employees be somewhat versed in everything. I had been passed up for many a position because my resume was Win32 focused. It wasn't until I began to highlight the fact that I had a unix background that I began to get interest from contract companies. Now, I get calls nearly every day because I have WinNT/2000 admin skills along with Solaris, HPUX, System V, AIX, Linux, and AS/400. I've been a desktop guru, NT/2000/2003 admin, Unix Admin, and Unix QA engineer. It became necessary to expand on my skillset because no one wants to employ JUST a Win32 admin or JUST a Unix admin or JUST a Cisco admin. You have to have it all just to get someone to look at you nowadays. The only thing I'm really missing now is DB administration. Once I have it, I'm a candidate for those wonderful $50/hr+ positions.
It's a good thing to be able to flip-flop between environments though. It helps you to be able to troubleshoot any issues that arise and it's kinda cool to be the one-stop-shopping guys for IT.
Fifty watts per channel, baby cakes.
Even if your gorinization is big enough to have seperate techs, never say that you'll never have to work on the other side. I mean say you are the UNIX guy for a company, all you do is mind the UNIX servers and write programs for them and so on. Windows is handled by a team of Windows guys. Then, one day, all but one of your Windows guys isn't there. They are sick, or on vaction, whatever, it's just one guy and something major happens. A virus starts making the rounds as the CEO has a big presentation to give.
Well, if you say "I don't do Windoze that's not my job, go away," you won't be very popular. Sure you aren't a Windows guy, however users don't really understand that. You are a computer guy, why won't you come fix their computer? If, however, you know enough about Windows to do basic systems tasks, you can help the Windows guy, go get the CEO setup with Powerpoint and such, and come out looking like a hero because you were able to fix things not directly your responsiblity.
I know if I were in a technical management position, I'd much prefer those with some skill, and more importantly willingness to work with all our various platforms. I'd rather not have a Linux guy that will only do Linux because if time comes I need 110% out of the crew I have for a problem on a different platform, he's not going to be any help.
Quite frankly, I could care less if someone has an MCSE. I find them hugely overrated. Not to say there aren't some great MCSE techs out there, but I'll be willing to bet that less than half of them are truly educated and knowledgable. That stems from so many bootcamps that even my cousin went to.
Personally when I'm hiring, I'll take verifiable experience over certifications any day. I've had both certified and non-certified employees and several times the non-certified employees got the job done better, faster, and more stable than the certified did.
Put bluntly, some kid walks in with an MCSE, A+ hardware, and A+ networking cert and only 2 years on the job. Beside him stands a guy with 15 years verifiable experience in network and server administration, I'll take the guy without the certs any day. I can't necessarily say that's how other companies look at it, but that's my take on it.
All certifications are is a way for companies to bilk a lot of yearly money out of people looking for jobs...you go through all of the 10,000 dollars it takes for your win2k certs and then suddenly ms releases their winxp certs, which means you have to start from scratch, etc...
if you are working for a company worth working for, they will realize that certs are a never-ending 'upgrade path' that forces the company & potential employees to pay endless amounts of money for information that is non-hands on, not useful in the actual day to day working environment.
doesn't matter if it's an msce, redhat, solaris, oracle or (insert your favorite cert here) certification - if your employer wants you to have the skills in that particular application / platform / etc then they will be willing to pay for it as well.
if not and they insist that it's a requirement, then you probably want to get a different job with a company that actually respects on the job training and 'realworld' skills.
I am (as an employer looking to hire) less interested in certs than I am in quantifiable skills working with and/or shipping products for the platforms in particular.
Gekido's Lair
Smaller companies want an admin that can do anything, Windows/unix/exchange/IIS. They need to have one or two staff to cover everything - keeping costs down. Great way to work, you get to use all these skills all the time.
Go to a bigger company that's looking for staff and they will be looking for a XYZ admin. Be it Windows or Unix. It will always help to show some experience in the other area but chances are your going to be 99% involved in your core OS.
At the last place I worked, the senior Windows Admin responsible for 1600+ servers, left to go work at a really small company, with less than 50 servers, just so he could get a chance to do other things.
The problem with spending time learning A, is that you miss out on learning B. So while you're cross skilling and learning Windows, you won't be studying perl, python, kernel hacking, C or one of any other of the thousands of things that would make you a better Unix admin.
I think the premise of this question is that there is one thing that a person must learn to be marketable in today's environment.
As a marketing wonk can tell you, (no, I'm not one) you're never looking for "one thing". You don't kill flies with shotguns. You should always be looking 2-3 years out and training for what you believe the job market will look like then. If you're not learning something in today's IT business, you're losing ground. Things change, and even more so than the actual skills you have, companies are looking for people who try to keep changing with the times. That's my two cents, anyway.
Chickens that swim! Film at eleven
... who read the title as "Cross-Country Skiing Across Multi-OS Platforms"?
:P
I was all geared up to see how someone had stuffed Linux into a snowboard.
PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
I have been job hunting recently as I am leaving my current job. The requirements for IT positions are just outrageous, they do want everything and the kitchen sink on a resume because they really do not know what they need you to do. For example, for a web developer they will ask for HTML, UML, XML, Javascript, VBScript, VB, Java, C#, ASP, .NET, Websphere, Weblogic, Apache, IIS. With 3 to 4 years of experience in all the environments.
Companies are not willing to train their staff, hell they are lucky if they understand what their staff even do. Managers look at their budget on software and use that for the skill sets that they put on Job Positions.
You want to find another job? Start networking with friends outside the company and see what is available. Otherwise you are just another cog in the machine and that is all you will ever be to them.
That's the hardest thing to get past when you are OS bilingual.
In many places with blended environments, the is an underground holy war, each camp trying to stake a claim for more territory in the name of their OS deity.
If you have ties in both camps, if you are not careful, you are seen as a traitor, and everyone hates you.
What to do? I try to rise above the fray, and take a best tool for the job approach, then focus on being a job expert, and not a tool expert. Carpenters are tool experts. Architects are job experts.
Also try making fun of Macs a lot. That always brings Windows and *nix types together.
Not to be blunt, but is it really that hard to learn how to administer more than one OS? I mean, I'm a developer and I'm expected to know either C++, Java or C# and their devlopment tools, or all of the above depending on the job, and usually some scripting language (Perl, Python, or C-shell variant). In addition, I'm required to know my way around any operating system I develop on, including scripting and basic administration. If I develop against a database, I need to know SQL and basic DB administration (doesn't matter which DB, I have to know them all). I'm also expected to know any middleware applications/APIs the company uses, like Tuxedo, TIBCO, or CORBA. Oh yeah, and as a developer, I'm also expected to know the business well enough that I can talk to any client or user in a knowledgeable way. If I start a job and am not an expert in everything they use, I'm expected to become an expert in a very short amount of time.
Of course, I personally love all that stuff, so I'm not complaining.
In today's world, if you're too specialized, you're easy to get rid of. The best thing you can do for yourself is to learn as much as you can. If you expect to get through your career doing the same thing over an over again, you're kidding yourself. Invest some time every week and beef up your domain knowledge. They don't call it lifelong learning for nothing!
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
So, I'm a systems admin taking care of a high-performance Windows/Linux/Solaris/VVMS/Cisco imaging network at a major hospital in New York City. Magnetic resonance imagers, ultrasound scanners, digital flouroscope rooms, fiber obtic backbone, terrabyte array storage archives, etc. etc. We interface with GE, Philips, Cerner, Dell, Microsoft, Cisco, etc. etc.
That being said, there are a couple of key cross-platform skill sets that are invaluable in these types of heterogenous environments. The first and foremost skill set is people skills, of course. Being able to manage vendor call centers, sales personel, field service engineers, and so forth. Also, you gotta be able to deal with people, especially end users who you support. Unless you're in the IT industry and are writing code or maintaining trunk lines for a telcom, you're probably supporting the IT needs of some other industry, and therefore have end users. Those people are the ones who are going to make or break your career. If your end users love you, word will spread and you won't have any problems with your career. If not, look for another job. So, people skills are the number one skillset that can be taken from one operating system to another. I'd also recomend Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" as a good introductory book on how to handle people. Even if you think you're good with people, you might be surprised at some of the nuggets of wisdom that are hidden in there. (And for those of you with the typical knee-jerk response, the book is about overcoming manipulation, false pretences, and shallowness. It advocates sincere interest in other people, which you can't get from reading a book one time. So, do yourself a favor, and ignore the title. It's a somewhat unfortunate title for a fantastic book.)
From a tech perspective, you want to look at internetworking concepts. Specifically, the Open Standards Interface (OSI) Internetworking Model. Learn it and love it. It's the single most useful tool I've come across in understanding, implementing, and maintaining enterprise wide network-enabled applications (e.g. teleradiology, radiographic archiving & retrieval, electronic medical records, etc). It's good for everything from hospital systems, to grocery stores, to small offices, to factories, to anything else I can think of. If you learn the OSI Internetworking model, you can go just about anywhere. And yes, I'm talking about the 7 layer OSI model: Physical, Data, Network, Transportation, Session, Presentation, Application. Also, I would note that the OSI model can be used for much more than just ethernet and configuring network cards. The OSI model can also be used on sneakernet and be used to model physical sneakernet devices, such as video monitors, printers, scanners, speakers, and any other device that is connected to a bus and has some type of physical interface that is used to communicate information (e.g. audio waves, printed paper, video images, motion sensors, etc)... A true grasp of the OSI model can allow you to be troubleshooting Cisco switches in the morning, nuclear MRI scanners in the afternoon, and HDTV/THX home entertainment systems in the evening.
Anyhow, those two items, Dale's Book and the OSI Model, however, can provide you the cross-platform people skills and technical skills to work in nearly any environment you want.
In a mid-sized shop, I can see value in making sure that any available techie is competent enough to muddle his way through any emergency situation, regardless of whether it's "his" area. That was how one of my best bosses approached it: I didn't need to know in detail ____'s job and the systems he was responsible for, but I needed to be know enough so that if they broke while he was on vacation, I could patch them up in less time than it took him to get back.
But I don't think it makes as much sense as the shop gets bigger and opportunity (and need) to specialise become greater. If the IT staff consists of dozens of people, and there's really enough work for all them to do, you don't want them wasting time crosstraining on everything. If you're that big you probably need some specialisation... you need some masters of their respective domains, not just a bunch of jacks.
Bottom line: it's not a "good" thing or a "bad" thing. It's a "what makes sense for me/for this employer" thing.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
What's the big deal with learning Windows? You're too "good" for it? You have a feeling of entitlement that you should be able to work on whatever you want? That exact attitude is why Indian system administrators will replace you. They are just as smart, in 5 years they will have enough experience, they are harder working, and they won't complain. They will do your job for less money, but more importantly, with LESS ATTITUDE.
I don't believe in becoming a specialised "unix" admin or a specialised "Windows" admin, because to be honest, *most* environments will require you to get involved with both.
However, given that, I'd much rather be a unix admin than a Windows admin - I pretty much started out with Unix services first, and it really does require that you know a lot more about how things actually *work* - a unix admin can usually stumble their way through Windows NT/2k due to the required knowledge on a Unix box. In my experience, a windows admin who has been able to stumble through the same job on a 2k/NT box usually finds hacking unix config files to be a little more difficult.
smash.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
I guess it depends on what market you're in. If there are enough big businesses around I would just concentrate on being the best UNIX admin you can be. There will always be work for people who are really good in a particular field.
I am very strong on the other side of the fence and I have to say that I hated finding an opportunity that sounded perfect...and then finding that they wanted someone strong in X (not literally) that was a UNIX thing.
In the end I think there is a higher payoff in job satisfaction (probably in salary as well) in being really good at a few things than being mediocre at a lot of things.
Kind thoughts do not change the world
I would stay "away" from windows "skills" at great effort, it will only devalue your skill set and force you to spend time with technology that will become obsolete along with your skills.
One time I worked for a large enterprise, and they had these windows servers running transactions for all their customers. And (supprise) the servers would lock up under high load nearly every other day, which was extremely expensive because it could cause lines to back up in over 1000 stores and the company would be loosing something to the tune of a million dollars per hour.
Needless to say, the company spent tons of money souping up the servers with the best hardware money could buy and even custom rewriting the tcp/ip stack to get the results they needed. They flew in experts from all over the world to find out what the problem was, and the experts eventually came back and said that it was a failure in the NT kernel.
The company then went to Microsoft and demanded a fix, and Microsoft in not so many words told them to go to hell. After that, they spent another few million dollars migrating their system over to Solaris (this was in 98, so they probably couldn't have gotten away with Linux) and I slowly but sorely started removing my Microsoft skills from my resume and beefing up big time on my Linux skills and haven't regretted it a day since.
Later on I got killed in the dot-com crash, and it was hard, but because of my Linux skills I eventually recovered and am now in demand more than I ever was. My friends who stayed with MS skills simply haven't fared too well at all and many were forced to get new carrers outside of IT.
More important even than the collection of tools in your toolbox, is the breadth of approach and understanding of systems that comes from having experience with all of those tools.
From what I've seen on job boards, it's not especially unusually for companies to ask for more than 30 skills. Including some stuff you wouldn't ordinarilly associate with sys admin like: MVS, C++/Java.
Among many other things, I constantly see: CISCO, Citrix, Tivoli, Remedy, HTML, PHP, Perl, Apache, Samba, Veritas, OpenView, Oracle Financials, PeopleSoft, SAP, SQL-Server, VoIP, Exchange; and so much more - every job is completely different of course.
But if you can't live on the $35K a year they want to pay you; janitors and truck drivers usually make about $50/year.
Lawful Evil?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
What's the big deal with learning Windows? You're too "good" for it? You have a feeling of entitlement that you should be able to work on whatever you want? That exact attitude is why Indian system administrators will replace you.
You hit the nail on the head. Indian firms are hungry for work, many will work harder without complaint.
Same thing could happen at home -- some go-getter who's hungry for work, eager to do anything without complaint, ready to displace a less adaptable worker.
-kgj
-kgj
Although we tend to take sides, NT or UNIX for example, there is a need for both a specialist and a generalist knowledge of all systems. And no human is smart enough to be both a generalist and a specialist. Many may claim it but in 25 years in this business I have never met nor heard of one person that can claim both. And those that do claim it are generally incompetent fools.
It also depends on where you want to take your career. Which in fact might be your best decision point. You don't see a general practitioner of medicine for a heart bypass. But first you see the general practitioner and get a referral to a cardiovascular specialist. This tech business isn't any freaking different.
A generalist is best at a higher level, perhaps even a manager. Often picking the best solutions without bigotry and FUD running their lives. Vendors only care about the sale, and will FUD bias into their own gain for their products deficiencies. True generalists will look at all the factors including suitability, scalability, reliability, standards, maintainability, security including patching, help desk calls and longevity. Generalists will pick Linux/UNIX as often as NT/Windows judging only by what is best for their situation. And their situation may also depend on the availability of skill sets.
A specialist is one you call for the hard to fix issues requiring expertise in far more detail than is possible for a generalist. They may not even initially know the answer, but have the knowledge and specialization to dig and get the answers to levels much more detailed than a generalist even comprehend. Far to many claim to be secialits but are not.
And a note about above, certifications are from a practical point of view, overrated and transient. From strictly a political point of view, certifications are necessary because of the impersonal nature and commoditization of HR in large organizations. The best people I know, don't subscribe to their certifications although many had them at one time and let them lapse. My attitude is simple, if the organization does not value you for your skills, but values certifications it tells you a lot about the company. As anyone with an memory can puke learn. But understanding comes from experience and initiative.
To become a generalist, a really good generalist you need to become a specialist and and soon as you comfortable move on to something different. That is, in hind sight, start with TRS-DOS, then Windows 2.0, on to XENIX, then to MVS/TSO, a shot at VAX, then Windows 3.0-4.0 and back into UNIX/Linux to replace Minix. Mix in some Cisco and a good dose of TCP/IP including Apache, DNS, sendmail, firewalling and of course NETBIOS and SNA which everyone wants to forget. And if you are so inclinded pic up some C/C++/Java along the way. Note the diversity... bounce around a lot if you want to be a generalist. It takes time.
If organizations really want directors/CIO/CTO people that don't get run over by sales FUD they pick seasoned generalists to promote. But keep the personal people skills up... if you want these rolls and there is not guarantee as the industry is full of b%(($#!t and naïve management often picks hype over fact.
(and vice versa)
There is a tendency for some people who look after Windows servers to be described as "system admins" when all the really do is stick the monthly patches on once a month and run "setup.exe" every now and again. Having people coming from a different background asking questions about "why" certain things are done a certain way can only be good.
The same's true the other way around as well ("why can't I see this on one screen without someone having to write something?" for instance).
... centric, and many will come ;)
Bad Pun.
I got a call on a job and was then sent the "requirements" Note that this was a partime Linux admin position with about 15 Windows desktops. Small office small situation.
1st requirement.
Must know how to use and apply differential equations as they apply to system design.
2nd requirement.
Proceeded to list about 40 languages that I should bring examples of programs currently in use at other locations (written by me) in each these languages.
To top it off they were willing to go as high as 12.50 an hour depending on experience. (Note that in the Valley McDonalds pays this much.)
My only question was, why did this person waste my time. Note too that this was a listing by a major provider of server hardware.
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
...whereas a lot of Windows admins I meet are "Next, OK, Apply, Cancel" kind of guys. Plus Windows is becoming more command line oriented (Thank God!).
I agree, I went from UNIX/LINUX only to woking with Windows servers as well and I must say I'm rather glad of it. Expanding into Windows has made me more employable and having started out in the UNIX world made me a better professional than I would have been if I had taken the Microsoft certification route and then moved into UNIX. Having worked mostly with Win 2003 rather than Win 2000 Server (thank god because the latter really sucks) I am constantly amazed by how the WinOnly admins worship the graphical tools. The first thing I did to my Win 2003 boxen was installing some of the Gnu tools and Gvim (hint: if you really want to have some fun introduce a freshly hatched MCSE to vim). Since then I have written several command line utilities in C#, which is not really all that hard if you know a little Java or C++, just to fill in some of the blanks in the Windows command line toolbox. I can now administrate those Win 2003 boxes completely from the command line which surprises many (though by no means all) Windows admins. The concept of solving time consumig tasks with custom scripts and programs seems to be alien to many Window guys whereas it is commonplace in the UNIX community.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
I've been working in IT, running big websites and webhosting for 11 years. I have also intereviewed dozens of candidates for various junior-, mid- and senior-level positions.
I've been a system administrator, programmer/analyst, tools developer, database administrator and senior-level security engineer. Soon I'll switch jobs again to application development (with some web stuff and operations thrown in). The fact is, what I've done has been driven by what I wanted to do--when you like doing something, you acquire deep and useful skills in it; if you acquire skills merely because you think they make you more valuable--well, hell, why do you want that job anyway?
I've never had an interest in working with Windows--the last time I used Windows was in 3.11 days. If I got myself a bunch of NT skills and some certifications, where's that going to get me? A job where I administer Windows? Write some Visual Basic scripts? No thanks.
There's a few things I hate when interviewing people for jobs, and people who have "checkbox" skills in subjects that don't interest them are one of them. You can always tell--they have experience or certifications working with a certain technology but no understanding of it--they can't "geek out" about it and learn intricacies if necessary.
Networking (the social kind, I mean) is huge, especially among people that can grasp your skill. All but one of my jobs have come from people I know (often former bosses) approaching me. When you work with stuff that you really like, that you can really understand deeply and use to deliver excellent work, you will shine like a star; and that star-power is what will get you jobs.
If you want to learn about and use Windows, then by all means do; and while you're at it, pick up a couple of certifications why not. But if you don't, no power in the world is going to make you good at it, or enjoy it; so the only consequence is possibly finding work that you're not good at and don't enjoy. Blech.
demi
Myself, I am diving into Unix for two reasons: side business I want to explore and for the inevitable time when I get Unix related support calls at my telecom job.
/. has already beaten into the ground.
From what I've seen over the years, there is less of a gulf between Unix and Windows people than between Client/Server people and Mainframe people with midrangers in between where Unix has penetrated deeply while Microsoft hasn't bothered to really seriously try. Say what you will about Cluster**** Server which
I'v also noted a wide variety of Unix being used with corporate non OSS leading easily, and a sizeable presence of BSD adherents. You hear more about Linux, but I don't tend to run into those in server land as BSD. If BSD were as easy to use as Red Hat I rather think Linux would have had its butt kicked by now in the corporate server farm. Heck, it would be doing better if it was as easy as Gentoo so you know that says something.
Of the non OSS, Solaris seems to be most common where I've been short of the solid IBM shops where their Unix variant is common. Of course, IBM often seems schitzo at the market boundry between midrange and big server so there's an ocean shore flotsam and jetsam effect there with Windows.
Oh yeah, cross skilling is a must. If VMWare were less expensive and better marketed, more people might be using five or six operating systems at the same time to get their skills going. I recall a multi-language training idea that was used largely with kids where five or six languages would be taught simultaneously. If how to do basic things in every common major OS were taught on a rotating basis, it would probably be a good idea. Windows on Monday, Red Hat on Tuesday, MacOSX on Wed., etc...
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
I find the best way is to arrange all the servers by size in the middle of the computer room, and place those styrofoam peanuts in the all the gaps, wait for management to go home, then I can go cross-skiing across the platforms... but watch out for leaving skid marks on the carpet...
Cross-skilling platforms? I thought you said cross-skiing platforms.
Hi Since heterogeneal computer enviroment is the *only* real-world true. Is not wierd that employers look for people knowing of many stuff (although can be specialized on one field). Is different for those employer who want to hire one people that do anything and pay the lessthing... My point is know as far as you can, but don't try to specilize on everything. For example my head have: Slackware, Debian, Gentoo, Mandrake, RedHat and Suse on the linux distros. Solaris on unix side (this is my specializated side), MaCOS 8 and 9 running aside Windows 3.11/98/NT/XP and 2003... That's only on the SO's department... My focus is on certifications with Solaris but also I help my co-workers and customers with Windows issues but I don't hold an MSCE... So try to find out which market you are confortable and make it your major.. but learn as you can!
And if my cost of living was as low as it would be in India, I wouldn't need to have a gross salary over $100,000/year -- I could probably do quite well on the $25,000/year they get. In fact, given those numbers, my standard of living in India at $25k might actually be higher than it is here in the US at $100k.
RHCE; are you certified? Karma: ambiguous.
Lets say you are a Windows Administrator and then you learn the Unix way of doing things. Now that you learn the Unix way you end up being a better windows administrator because some of the things you learned in Unix can transfer to windows side. Like if you were trapped to the Windows GUI after learning unix you may feel a little more comfortable writing windows scripts and depending less on prepackaged programs. Also If you Unix administrator and you learn Windows administration you can improve you Unix stills by making more use of the newer GUI unix admin tools that are available where you were bone dry on the old commands you may find some of the newer graphical admin tools in Unix have considerable ability to improve certon areas.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
The question is pointless. Knowledge is power and the effect being observed is just an example.
BUT, with power comes responsibility (when you're being paid to possess such power), so the more you know, the more you really can write your own ticket. BUT, the side effect is that it will be you having to fix the problems when you're the 'go-to guy'. This is really dangerous when *everyone* else in your orginization is allowed to be limited to one skill type. Add in co-workers that don't bother learning beyond the basics of their technologies and you're screwed.
In our shop, a mixed Unix/Linux/MS_2003 environment, our management does not expect cross-skill primary administration, but wants emergency backup across platforms. We keep up with each other on critical tasks but are not experts in each other's areas.
For me, it means writing more scripts so the "clickers" can minimize their typing and work from a crib sheet. Doing their MS stuff is just boring and is mainly application-oriented.
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
I grew up with PCs, did 6 years in college which was heavy on UNIX, supporting WfW 3.11 labs, Sun Workstations, and dumb terminals connecting to UNIX mainframes (as a lab support guy). Did a 6-month internship supporting WfWG and NT 3.5 at a *huge* industrial site. Worked 3 years supporting Win95/NT4 workstations and NT Server, SCO Server, and AIX at a shop of 50, where I got certified an MCSE in NT4. Worked five years at a large University, supporting primarily Redhat and Solaris at the senior-admin level, though a fair bit of AIX and IRIX, too.
You'd think I'd be able to name my price, but it ain't so! In *addition* to all this crap, companinies want all of the above, plus, an experienced DBA and a developer who speaks Java, SQL, and C++. Oh, and they want someone who's an expert in networking hardware.
I don't mind being a jack of all trades type of admin, but isn't there a point where one can be *too* diluted with skills?
I'm a "systems guy" through and through -- and a pretty damned good one, if I do say so myself. I *can* bang together the occasional bash/perl/sed/awk script to automate *systems* administration, but I'm no code jockey (and I really don't want to be one). I know enough about TCP/IP and routing to help dedicated network staff trouble-shoot network problems by way of ping, traceroute, and packet dumps, but I'm noenterprise-level network guru (and I don't want to be one).
I feel this person's pain, as I've been in the job market for a while. It seems comapanies -- of a surprisingly wide range of sizes -- want people that can do it all. AND... they don't seem to want to pay what just the senior-level admin skills in one platform alone are worth, never mind the programming and hardware networking expertise.
I mean, how many contractors expect people who are experts in plumbing, electrical, *and* HVAC to be the same person for hire? It's getting silly out there.
Method of processing duck feet
When I was looking around for another job I found that companies wanted more out of their people. They didn't just want a Systems' Admin, they wanted an Admin + Storage Admin, Admin + DBA, Admin + Appliation + Web + DBA. It is clear the want more bang for their buck regardless of OS.
We just hired a new person, and it wasn't enough they had good System Admin skills, they also wanted the person to have really good management skills to boot. Mangers have their pick, and they are being picky.
I have to gone bone up on Oracle now.
I work in a 11 man IT shop and most people are in a niche. IT is mostly windows with a bit of HP-UX and AIX thrown in. I am one of two people who have cross platform skills. When our HP-UX admin got fired I took over the hardware and OS (not application) duties on that. Nothing much to learn other than HP-UX is not BSD. I got a 6k raise. When we needed an actual cisco guy instead of contractors and freely avalible configs they called on me. I recieved a 5k raise. I also picked up another 4k at my yearly review.
So now I am Jr. Windows Admin/Network Admin/HP-UX admin making good money and more importantly enjoying what I do. Most importantly for the company I can talk Windows, network and big iron. I get a view of the whole IS infrastructure and have valuable input. I am also very hard to replace as they would need two or three people to do what I do.
About two years ago it would be enough if just had websphere or weblogic application administration for an application administration position or WebSphere MQ skills for a likewise position. Now the trend of requiring a combination of multiple skills in application server( Websphere/Weblogic/Jboss), portal ( mostly Websphere Portal server ), Websphere MQ administration, Business Integration server, Tivoli Access manager ( competing product of Netegript Siteminder ), Tivoli Identity Manager, etc is becoming frequent which currently could be around 5%. And they do pay more, north of 90k/$60/hr comparably more than middleware jobs of one product.
Recently a recruiter would not interview me for a position requiring Websphere application server on Z/os because I did not work on Z/os, not considering the fact the actual Websphere product administration is the same across all platforms.
However, after coming from large enterprise environments, where the UNIX boys do the UNIX stuff and the NT guys do the Windows stuff [snip]
After watching friends in the IT industry deal with difficult employment situations in Silicon Vally, I have to say that cross-functionality is a must. One friend in particular has been forced to accept positions at relatively small companies, and the people that run these places just don't understand, well, much of anything about computer infrastructure. One choice quote: "If the CEO isn't having any problems, he thinks that no one else is either." The same guy that thinks a four-hour per week IT consultant can keep their systems, network infrastructure and Windows boxen all running happily. Decisions are made more through egotistical and micromanagerial mechanisms rather than entrusting the computing environment to the ones knowledgeable enough to make those decisions.
So while the enterprise may have more vertical job functions, the smaller shops have a variety of needs dictated more by the (lack of) knowledge of the management than the real needs of the computing infrastructure. You should probably increase your employability by getting your MCSE, but at the same time be wary of those smaller shops. Without wanting to be a pessimist, I'd assume the worst if you're going to be the sole IT guy/gal, or even part of a team of three or less.
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right.
I teach a class for large Corporations on this very subject... Windows Management Concepts for Unix Professionals. I teach Unix admins how to manage Windows Servers with tools they're used to using. We load Services for Unix on the Servers and they feel at home.
This is very insightful.
Linux, Windows, Novell, Cisco and Oracle
16 years of exp.
Then what ?
Overskilled, no work, because every it manager fears.
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
What department!? What departmennnnnnnnttt!?
Step one in UNIX -> Win education is:
INSTALL cygwin from www.cygwin.com
It is a UNIX sub-system for win32 and is a fairly complete and very easy to work with. One tip would be to install all the packages, not just the defaults.
Once you get it installed, you can setup an SSH service with:
ssh-host-config (and answer some questions)
cygrunsrv -S sshd
This will start openssh as a service (and config for install on bootup). Make sure you adjust your firewall settings to allow port 22. Then make sure that you have a password set on the account you want to access. The ssh in and you got UNIX-style remote access. Only complaint I have is that it doesn't come with GNU screen.
anonymous coward?
I mean, it is our life isn't it? If we don't have a desire to develop skills on Microsoft's platform, why should we?
Jack of all trades, master of none?? No thanks.
http://www.awwsheezy.com
cudos to you.
Most people are recommending you learn both... but I disagree. The problem w/learning how to administer NT boxen is that they'll expect you to actually do the work- and who really wants to do admin work on NT?
.net because then I'd probaby have to develop stuff on it- which I have no interest in doing whatsoever. So if you only really enjoy working on unix, than stick with it- there's plenty of work to go around.
I make the same decision all the time not to learn
If it were my shop, I'd automatically grant any Unix wizard full honorary degrees in Windows 101. To do otherwise would be like hiring a 20-years-experienced airline pilot and then fussing over whether or not he could fly a kite.
I live in the US and I'd be more than happy to make $25k/year. It's a good 1/3rd more than what I make now. Only reason I'm still at this job? There hasn't been a job in this town which will pay more with my education level (people here are picky about that), and I'm currently living right at making ends meet.
I'd like to think of myself as multiskilled, though I've only been doing Linux/Windows IT work for about 5 years. I don't doubt I'd do better if I could get out of this backwater.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
For many managers and higher-ups, a resume that shows knowledge of only one platform tends to make people think a candidate lacks iniative. With the exposure available for different platforms, basic systems administration is a commodity skillset these days.
The fact is, unless you've lived under a rock, you've at least _USED_ Windows. And if you're a competent Windows administrator, you've at least _TINKERED_ with Linux or Mac OS. Put that on your resume, not as your focal point, but at least mention it.
Do you need to be equally competent at optimizing Windows as you are at recompiling and tweaking Solaris drivers? Doubtful. But if you're presented with a Windows server that feeds data to or receives data from your Unix environment, you should at least know how to troubleshoot ODBC, network settings, account information, etc. At the very least you should be able to grill the Windows admin that's helping you with knowledgeable and competent questions.
Considering the vast differences in each platforms application suites and management tools (.NET, PHP, Java, IIS, Apache, MS SQL, Oracle, blah blah) no one can expect a jack-of-all-trades in that area. But for basic OS administration, if you don't have some cross-skilling going on, be assured there's someone else out there that does.
I'm familiar very with NT:
I'm familiar with it's high failure rate, and I'm familiar with remastering it as a better *nix based solution.
I thrive on freeing Microsoft-locked companies. When I convert them to Linux shops, my customers absolutely love me for it. When they buy 50 new machines that don't require the MSFT Tax, they _SEE_ the savings.
So... Learn about NT, and how to replace it with Linux. Learn about the equivalent *nix offerings and concentrate on how you can provide a better solution to your future employer.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/04/04/26/18502 37.shtml?tid=126&tid=187&tid=98&tid=99
I posted this "ask slashdot" a while back and one of the things that I was most commonly accused of was having a "mile wide, inch deep" skillset. Since so many here have keenly pointed out that you can not have a specialist who is also a generalist, I ask people this: "What do I need to do to get hired by someone as a sys-admin".
Adapt or go into hordiculture.
If you get an MCSE or equivalent, be prepared for people to start devaluing your Unix skills. Most Unix people I know sneer at MS certs, and will toss such resumes in the garbage (fairly or not, it's what happens).
So get an MCSE, and you're likely to get hired for MS support. Once there, your enterprise Unix skills (assuming your a good Unix admin) will make you a very good Windows admin, and you'll be able to easily continue down that path. In a few years, you may not be able to get a job in Unix anymore, because your skills are old, and you're now a MS support guy.
It's up to you if you're willing to do that--it would certainly make you more employable--but if the time comes that I can't get an IT job outside of the Microsoft world, then I'll switch fields.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
just tell the HR drone that you will study for 15 minutes each day when Mickey's big hand and little hand are both on the six. Or if they are really insistent to have you buld "strong NT skills," offer to have a lobotomy.
As always the more skilled you are the more useful you are to the company. The problem today is that people(like myself) are now arriving in the job market who have grown up with the computer. At age 5 i had a keyboard at my fingers. This computer upbringing gives this many of this new generation of workers a serious edge. I had advanced skills in Windows and Unix by the age of 16. At the sametime, there are many people I know my age who are absolute Windows Guru's but couldn't get a directory listing on a *nix machine if someone typed ls for them. The different between myself and my friends was merely attention span. At the core of it we all found it extremely intuitive and had a gut feeling of how things *would* and how they *should* work. My perspective is, in the world of Technology one should never put all the eggs in one basket. I could become a CCIE one year make $100k but Cisco could screw themselves real hard and I am out of a job. My goal is to not get blindsided by a technology shift but to always be looking down the road to see where my skills need adapting.
Welcome to corporate America, son. Just to remind you that you haven't a chance in hell of making it, here. These are the requirements we are seeking to field for our sys admins.
Unreasonable, you say. Of course its unreasonable, how else would corporations convince you that you're not worth what you think.
And you thought you'd advance on performance evaluations. Hah...
Saying that however, I have access to DB2 and SQLServer production environments to learn on. While its nice to crosstrain, if you don't have access to the environments you want to learn, in a production environment, then your not really going to become proficient in it.
IMHO it wouldn't hurt to learn a bit of NT because the job market is pretty competitive and if you end up competing for a job with a person that has the same amount of unix experience but has a bit of NT tossed in they may get the job over you.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
We were just discussing this at work yesterday. (I work at a large well known mail filtering company.) One of the sales types wandered over to the Security Dept and asked us if we happened to have any CISSP books or recommendations for courses, material etc. (He was a network admin in previous lives so it's not quite so hatstand as it might sound.) CUe an interesting discussion where the consensus amongst my boss (who has no certs) myself (ditto) and a colleague who has CISSP and a UK-specific IT security cert boiled down to: vendor-specific certs are largely devalued, though they can be a good way to learn stuff the CV-enhancing benefits are marginal at best these days. Apart from CISSP and the Cisco CCIE (a seriously hardcore cert - there are only a few thousand holders in the world), and perhaps SANS GIAC (another sec cert) the MCSE-mill places and the dotcom-era experience of paper admins with no clue have completely devalued most of the vendor-specific certs. Certainly, when we're hiring, a candidate who brandishes a string of letters as some sort of passport to clue gets treated with more scepticism, not less, during interviews.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
It's an excuse to preserve a social ladder (ie. promotions, bonuses, increases, starting salary level). Those of you who truly care about what you do will be left behind while those who don't really give a darn will waste their time at the dog show jumping through hoops and hurdles to earn their certificates.
This system is aided by the granting of paid company time off to obtain the desired certs and reimbursements for the cost, either up front or after the fact.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
But by attaining basic skills party may need, this lvl 12 Unix mage guarantees that he will not be able to cast that high level prismatic wall spell to stop hordes of Goblins attacking the Castle, in which case Light Network Healing and Saving Patch skills will not suffice at all... So his new gained multi class skills will only keep party alive for a few rounds tops, which is a disaster compared to what he could do with being a specialized single class Unix Archmage...
Unless you're looking to become the equivalent of a modern day AS/400 / mainframe admin.
It's just an effort to condense the workforce into a lower cost employee model. No different than the previous efforts to find people with 18 years of Java experience, 20 years of Perl experience, and a fluency in at least 9 other languages. Sounds like super man, doesn't it? But the super man they hire typically can't code his way out of a wet paper bag, but his BullShit is unsurpassed.
You can go cross platform if you want, but it will diminish your capabilities in each. The Military, who can afford far fewer mistakes than a business, is very cautious about cross-functional equipment or troops. It's not that they don't have fighter-bombers, but they certainly haven't done away with all their bombers.
If the company does not value diverse skills in their workforce, they know nothing about technology risk management. Companies with a blind eye for technology changes will fade away eventually, and you do not want to be part of it anyway. Just remain 'multi-skilled' and find a company that values it highly.
-- Imperial units must die --
Its my thought that as the IT industry standardizes itself more in the future ALL IT folk will need to know more. Don't stick in a niche like UNIX, or even Windows for that matter, suck it all up, all the time, its the only way to win. If you are too "busy", "lazy" or "poor" to pursue the IT field like an addict who can't get enough then you will reap what you sow. There are no excuses or handouts! Successful mechanics work on more than transmissions. There is room for specilization in our field, but in a field that changes as quick as ours I think its a bad idea, unless you like to "re-specialize" every three-five years. Now, if your an M.D., its a different story as their systems (our bodies) haven't changed in thousands of years! I know an enterprise admin position can fill all your day hours (I used to be one in choclate town) but I still found ways to expose myself to as much as possible, side work/consulting helps A LOT! Realize my comments above are for those looking at the big picture and long term. Sure Microsoft or Cisco may carry your career for 10 years or so, but whats after that?
It has to do with the size (and focus) of your employer. In a Fortune 50 company with an IT focus, many of the employees can be highly specialized, e.g., you might have somebody who does nothing but administer Oracle databases running on Solaris. At the other end of the spectrum, many much smaller outfits hire a one-man IT department, who is expected to unjam printers, administer databases, teach introductory internet classes, write firewall rulesets, support end users, create newsletters, assign IP addresses, install software, make purchase recommendations, and fix hardware and software problems on Macs, Windows PCs, Linux boxes, and whatever other platforms the organization happens to have. (We're phasing out the VMS system this summer...) When you have this kind of job, your official job title can be anything (mine is "Technology Coordinator"), but people usually just call you The Computer Guy. Frequently you end up also doing non-computer work for part of your work time, to cover for days off, vacations, and other things, to fill out your schedule, or just to be "part of the team".
The good news is that a generalist is not expected to be the leading expert on anything, and often you have outsourced support contracts for the more difficult or mission-critical systems.
I suspect that in a more medium-sized outfit you'd have some in-between level of both expertise required in your specific are and competence (or at least dabbling) required outside your area of expertise.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Another thing to consider is that some parts of the IT industry actively require cross skilled individuals. To give you some idea, I started off as a UNIX system administrator but now work as a penetration tester. Working in the current role, while everyone has their fu - for some it's web apps, for me it's Solaris and for others, well you get the point. The fact is that in the last month, I've done assessments requiring a good level of knowledge of Cisco, ASP.NET, Windows 98, Solaris 10, Perl, Windows 2000 and RedHat Linux... if I turned round to our tech director and said no, I wouldn't do one of other of these not only would I be out the door but I'd be bloody foolish, since they've all be interesting assessments.
Tim Brown
Like installing buggy USB driver f*cking up DHCP client's ability to renew IP address. Or installing desktop skinning software causing Windows to start failing installation of virtual network adapters. Or that disabling (certain) personal firewall software actually not having a full effect on a traffic until the next reboot.
Or installing the old Oxford English Dictionary on CD-ROM, and having it nuke your networked Lexmark PostScript printer driver.
[By the way, the new Oxford English Dictionary employs C-Dilla, and is damned near unusable.]
It boils down to this: do you want to be the world's greatest Unix admin, or do you want to be extremely employable at a good salary in a place that's not a sweatshop?
I've been a Unix sysadmin/engineer. I've managed the Windows/email group in a large corporation. I manage the network architecture group in another large corporation.
I look for demonstrated technical ability (expertise). I also value cross plaform ability. I also look for someone with a open mind, who can work well with others.
Someone who comes in and says 'there's no way a corporation can run Windows systems and survive' doesn't last through the interview - even for the Unix group. The answer I'm looking for is: UNIX is more securable in an Internet-facing environment. If you have to run Windows (even IIS) for business reasons, you will have to patch more often. You may get rooted more often. You may have to look harder for Windows admins who can properly secure the environment, but we can do that, if it's imperative.
The Windows groups also need people who understand scripting, remote shell and managing fleets of servers through systems rather than putting a CD in each box and running setup. Gee.
Small shops also have a lot of crossover between Unix, Windows and network groups.
If you want to be the most employable person, learn some of all of these. You will be more valuable to more organizations.
Certifications are also useful. I get ten resumes on my desk, all from people who *say* they are great admins. I only have time to interview in person 3-4 of these. If one has taken the time to get Red Hat (or Sun) certified, that may mean he considers himself a professional, and wants to do more. It may also mean he's a paper RHSE, but the interview will pick that up. He/she is more likely to make the short list. And, if he/she has an MCSE as well, it makes it even more likely.
I work at one of those big shops where the unix guys to the unix stuff and the NT guys do the Windows stuff.
I guess DNS, Email, Web, DHCP, File, Print, Etc is all 'windows' stuff. Note that any of these COULD be done by the 'UNIX' guys.
I am personally skilled in both Unix and Windows. Our shop recently had the need to setup a stand alone mail server, we couldn't use Exchange for the thousands of mailboxes we needed for a project because of the expense. Because the mail would eventually end up on a very large AIX box, our UNIX admins should have picked up the project. But they only know how to configure sendmail enough to use a smart host.
So, I, a member of the 'windows' team, setup a linux/postfix/vmpop3d solution for them. I needed my Unix skills. (Setup Linux.) I need my Mail skills (Setup postfix. Configure for virutal mailboxes. Configure pop server to use virtual mailboxes. ) I needed my DNS skills (setup internal domain, mx record, etc.) I need my x86 skills (will eventually live on hp hardware) I needed my web skills (Setup apache, write simple python cgi script to manage the virtual mailboxes)
Our Unix team uses host files.
Anyway, being an 'admin' nowadays requires, or should require, more knowledge than vi. Deal with it.
You are either a solutions-oriented admin, and will use whatever tools you need for the solution, or you're just an operator.
Do other enterprise admins think that this is too much for us to take on, and companies are just expecting more bang for their buck these days?
I've been in the systems administration business for 23 years.
I currently support NetWare, Win2k, Win2k3, Mac OS-X, WinXP, O/S-2 and in the past have also supported VMS, DEC Unix and a wonderful HP creation, MPE-XL.
One of the saddest days in my life came last year when I watched a half-dozen good friends lose their jobs because our employer phased out VMS and these people had no experience with other operating systems. A couple of them were actually PROUD of that fact. More than half of them are still out of work.
Well, the business world is no different from any other natural system, evolution in action.
Adapt or die.
Goofy, Geeky Gifts and More!
I was hired as a linux admin, not a NT/2000/XP admin. I took the job because of my feelings against Windows in a hope that the company I work for will steer clear of MS products.
I think that's the point, moron. The company will only have to shell out $25k US to get the same or better level of productivity from someone who doesn't have an attitude about working. The person making $25k US will feel great because he's earning hand over fist. Everyone wins, except for the loser UNIX snob who fucked himself from a job because he didn't want to learn Windows, because why should he? It's his life. Whatever.
As somebody who has worked in support of multiple operating systems and applications and more specialized support, I can honestly say that if doing something really truly makes somebody miserable, they should reconsider doing that something.
I know a number of people who cannot tolerate Windows support. If they work in support, they do something else, or, more likely, they avoid support altogether.
I agree partly with the poster, in the sense that many people are spoiled and won't work at certain types of work. However, most people will work at anything if they're paid enough. Don't blame anybody for not wanting to work at something they hate for a salary that's completely inappropriate for an adult lifestyle. Note that "adult lifestyle" is not referring to the summer home, fancy second car, partying every night, $10,000 TV, etc., but being able to afford to live in a safe neighborhood while not living with one's parents, trying to raise a kid (healthy food, enrolling in community sports programs, good education), etc.
I agree there are a lot of spoiled people out there. I also agree there are a lot of unhappy people out there, and for many of them, their jobs contribute to their misery. I'm not referring to "nobody wants to work", but people who truly hate their lives because they work in jobs that just sucks all their energy... and they're working at these jobs for sh*t pay.
Feel free to feel that way, moron. And that's why you'll be unemployed sooner or later with no prospects of getting a job. Your views and your attitude are completely unrealistic in this day and age. And the reason why your jobs will all go to india, and then when you have to get a completely new job, ie. flipping burgers at McDonalds, I hope you feel good about the fct that it's your life, and you made the best decision you could
You can get people who are UNIX masters and Windows masters. This is not hard. There are 12 year olds that can learn how to administrate both UNIX and Windows. All it takes is hard work and perseverance, which are the qualities that Indian outsourcers have. They don't think they are gods just because they know UNIX, or aren't misguided like you that learning UNIX is somehow the hardest thing in the world. They will learn both, and then put you out of a job.
You're making assumptions.
Just because somebody doesn't want to work at one thing or a few things doesn't mean they'll be picky about everything else. Most people I know have a small number of things they won't work at, but are willing to try most anything else.
How many people support Windows in their job? How many people work at everything else?
See, a big difference. In my case, I work in dead-end jobs (not MacDonald's) to cut down on my debt and save money to go back to school where I will study something involving medical or engineering technology. Sure, I'll likely have to use Windows at whatever I do, but my Computer Science degree, much of my previous support experience and most of my computer skills can be damned before I accept doing Windows support for a living in the long-run, at least in the current market conditions (unpaid overtime on already low salaries).
Mind you, I would completely accept working at Windows support if I could work a sensible 40 hour work week and make enough money to support a family... in other words, financially support a family and spend some time with them. Unfortunately, I cannot.
I look around and I see a lot of people, with a lot less education, working in less stressful jobs for more money.
Life is short. Don't tell me to work in poor working conditions for poor money just because I might end up working at McD's someday.
And let's make one thing clear here. Most outsourcing isn't happening because people here are not willing to do the work. It's happening because it saves (or is perceived to save) companies money. If an outsourcee can work for less money "there" than the cost of rent "here", how the hell can somebody be expected to work at it here?
Many support jobs are very poorly paid. Many of these people who say they will never work in Windows support would, indeed, work in windows support if the salary were decent. Everybody has their price, and for many people, their price is low. It's just not *that* low for that job.
Besides, if I can go and do a 9 month electrician course and start work for more money doing something I don't hate, why would I choose to work in Windows support and work for less money doing something I hate?
I agree sometimes that people are spoiled and need to get a sense of perspective. I also believe that your post lacks of perspective as well.
Feel free to feel that way, moron.
And you think the other posters have a problem with their "views and attitude"?
I thought about working for MacDonald's and decided against it. I don't think I would enjoy the work and the pay isn't very good for somebody in my situation. I certainly wouldn't be able to have a family working at this job.
But then I thought, what am I going to do with an attitude like that?! This is why our jobs will be given to illegal immigrants. Then when I have to get a completely new job, they will all be gone. Am I sure I will feel good about my life then and that I made the best decision I could.
(I don't know why I fall for that bait.)
You obviously don't get the point.
"They don't think they are gods just because they know UNIX, or aren't misguided like you that learning UNIX is somehow the hardest thing in the world"
I never said unix was hard, I just said that it's better to find a specialized niche, and to focus on a specific area, rather than trying to do everything, and failing miserably.
People who specialize in specific technologies need to be patient w/ the job market, and their job searching. There are companies who understand what I am saying, and they are willing to pay FAR more to a person who specializes in the specific technologies, rather than hiring some monkey who tries to do everything.
There is no doubt of the risk-level competing w/ offshore contractors and IT sweatshops, but thats why most american CS students and IT professionals are either starting their own businesses, becoming contractors, or simply moving on to bigger/better fields.
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
Apologies up front as I'm a bit of a dinosaur but I have been in the business for over 25 years. Starting in IBM Assembler, which I still use today, I have since branched out across C, C++, Perl & Rexx to name a few languages but the question was about OSs....
My main job is working on IBM's TPF (Transaction Processing Facility) but that requires knowledge of MVS and VM (because they run support systems for TPF. But nowadays we all use Windoze (either 2000 or XP) on our workstations and are expected to be pretty handy with those as well. Then there is the new integration of Linux as the new support system for TPF to (eventually) replace MVS and VM. Still with me ?
So, over the years people in my line of work have had to pick up necessary knowledge and skills on TPF, MVS, VM, Win2k, WinXP and Linux. Although in half these cases we are no more than 'power users' for at least three of these we need to be comfortable at the lowest levels of operation, configuration and management.
As systems evolve there is definitely a need for those people that are comfortable in multiple environments. Best just get used to it I suppose.
As I have seen it, if you have windows system admin skills, about half the time you end up a defacto overglorified help desk operator. I just saw a big rollout of windows latops, and the windows admins ended up swamped with the problems. The unix admins didn't take much of a hit at all, and just kept working on thir stuff, staying on target. The network admins just kept setting/maintaining up LAN/WAN links, routers, and switches.
Pick your battles. If you really dig fixing windows, and answering the 'I spilled coffee on my keyboard' calls, become an NT admin. And, yes, you'll get work everywhere.
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
I think that it is neccessary to at least have a working knowledge of various OS's. I am a UNIX Admin, but have also been a Windows admin/desktop support/network admin/VMS admin/linux admin/database developer & admin. I have the most knowledge in UNIX/Linux, but also have formed a good working knowledge of Windows admin needs as I find that I often need to be aware of those when configuring unix boxes on an MS AD network. Best bet is to at least be able to do the basics across the board, while being the master in one or two.
Application has reported a 'Not My Fault' in module KRNL.EXE in line 0200:103F
My gut tells me that a lot of the "job openings" that require active DoD with poly are tailor-made for existing employees in the same organization who are being groomed for promotion. They already have the clearance and since they're not changing employers it's a lot less hassle to get it blessed by the Powers That Be.
The one I really hate is being lied to by recruiters. Monday morning they tell you about this wonderful opening they have that exactly matches your skill set; Tuesday afternoon you show up for the interview and it's "oh, that opening was filled last week. But let's sit down and talk just in case anything comes up later that you're qualified for." Nine times out of ten I'll bet they make the whole thing up in the first place just to get you in a chair and pick your brain to see where they can shoehorn you in to get a placement bonus.
-- Old Man Kensey