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When to Leave That First Tech Job
An anonymous reader writes "Chris Wilson has an interesting piece about a scenario all CompSci/Engineering students dread, getting a job out of college and having it quickly turn sour. He writes: 'The first layoff is tough. After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward? To summarize how I felt: Disillusioned.' He discusses warning signs you should look for in your own work environment that point toward "Getting out". An interesting read, especially for aspiring engineers or engineers out on their first job."
...when your web server dies even before a Slashdot 'First Post'
When you're leaving your job, stay late on the last day.
Then, when everyone else has gone, start a fire.
"Why did they cancel my favorite Sci-Fi show? I downloaded ALL the episodes!"
When to leave your (first, second, third or nth) tech job
.NET experience. They searched my university's resume database for candidates, and I came up. Would I like an interview? Hell yes.
.NET Ninjas. We were going to produce top-notch software for the nuclear power industry. Combining management's knowledge of the nuclear field and our kung fu grip on .NET , we hoped to dominate our market niche. As developers we would be on the ground floor of a booming company. There was greater room for advancement compared to a traditional office environment. We all hoped to have company cars, top-notch health care, company cell phones, and tons of other wonderful perks; all just slightly out of reach.
When to leave your first job in the technology field
Editorial by Christopher Wilson
It was early May of 2004, and I was almost at the finish line for my degree. Between me and graduation: Just two summer classes. I was in the process of finishing what could only be described as the most intense spring semester of my college career. As the semester's end finally hit, I realized something. I was going to need a job, and I hadn't even started looking.
Then, almost on cue, the phone rang. The president of a small and local software company was looking for computer engineers with
I was to be part of a team of highly skilled, versatile,
It did not go as planned.
One stressful year later, while I was staying late with a few other developers to finish up on some work, I was asked to report to the president's office. My manager was already there, sitting on the same side of the desk as the president. They explained to me, in a level and professional tone, that due to financial factors, I was going to be let go, with only an hour's severance pay. Thanks for all the hard work, and best of luck.
The first layoff is tough. After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward? To summarize how I felt: Disillusioned. Only one thing kept me going -- pure ego. You know when the schoolyard bully says something about your mom in front of everyone? But, ignoring the size difference and the fact that he's already shaving daily at age 14, you step forward and say "Oh yeah?", with a Brock Sampson-like eye twitch the only warning of the impending ownage? That's the kind of ego that kept me determined to give software engineering a second shot.
Over the course of the previous year, my friends quickly learned I liked to talk about work less and less. When I did open up about it, they were astounded by, well, let's say various factors of the work environment. Each and every time it was discussed with my peers in the field, time and time they gave me the same advice: Get out.
I have to say, they were totally right.
All the signs were there, but I blazed on, telling myself that this was just a rough patch for the company, and that we'd pull out of this tailspin in time to land safely at our destination. I was ignoring the pilots screaming "Mayday, Mayday".
Now, while I was blind to obvious signs that it was time to leave, doesn't mean that you have to be. I would like to present the 4 signs that you should leave your workplace (for software engineers):
1 It's the environment, stupid!
In the University of Pittsburgh's Computer Engineering program, there is a mandatory department seminar, where the department informs us about our career options. Oftentimes, alumni come back to speak about the career opportunities in their field. It's all very, very dry, and as a result, nobody listens. They also fail to give one piece of advice that I would at the first seminar of every year, if I was ever asked to give one:
Don't work in cubicles, ever. Working in cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company. Imagine the smartest person you know, working in your field. Now imagine how they would react if they were told they're going to work in a box with no door or roof,
When you're sitting in meetings thinking "I would cheerfully shoot any one of you fuckers in the face to get my last job back", it's probably time to move on.
http://www.mirrordot.org/stories/6013d4189a6126e91 d2664e5ba57f581/index.html
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
I work for a Doctor who owns his own practice. I recognize that he went through years of medical school to get where he is, and I respect that.
However, med school does not teach you Programming/Networking/System Diagnosis and Repair. It appears to have barely taught management.
When your boss thinks he knows how something should be done because he is a professional in another field, it is time to type up the resume and start passing it around. When you can't convince him of something because he "Knows" how it "Should" be done, your sunk.
Physics is nothing like religion. If it was, we'd have an easier time trying to raise money!
> After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward?
Hint: don't bend over backward.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I worked at Google. We had cubicles. Good thing this guy came along to tell me it wasn't a successful company or I never would have known.
I've worked in 4 companies which have bitten the dust in the last 10 years, some good indicators of problems are:
* Paying you in pizza and food stamps
* Managers being overly nice to everyone in meetings while looking very nervous
* 'Minor unexplained troubles' when pay fails to make it to the bank on time
* Large men standing at the doors of the company in pinstripe suits telling everyone to go home for the day
* Leaving the office late in the evening, seeing the company accountant loading what seems to be company property into the back of his SUV
* The CIO borrowing lunch money from you
* Sudden and unexplained 'asset stocktake' undertaken by little men you've never seen in the company before, calling themselves 'administrators'.
* You get an e-mail alert from the stock exchange warning you that your company has announced that it has been placed into liquidation.
Task Mangler
It's called Mirrordot. Get Greasemonkey for Firefox and the right script, and Mirrordot links will be inserted into the Slashdot story. Very nice.
Ewige Blumenkraft.
Some of the specific examples are job specific in this case, but I think this is good advice for anyone in a professional environment. Software engineers don't have the monopoly on bad managment.
"Don't work in cubicles, ever."
I don't know if that's true. I know very smart people making decent money who work in them. The problem with this advice:
1. it disregards smaller companies who can't afford to give its engineers offices. That job you turn down for making you work on folding tables could be the next microsoft (or google or whatever). Find a job you enjoy and that lets you live comfortably in your lifestyle.
2. engineers who aren't that valuable to a company will find it hard to get a job in an office. I know what you are thninking: that's exactly the point of not working in a cubicle. The unfortunate truth is many people, straight out of college, are simply not competent enough to get their dream job.
3. your first job is often not your last. Think of it as experience for when you are looking for a better job (or promotion). Yeah, cubicles suck, but if you work hard you won't be there for long.
Huh. I work at one successful company with plenty o' cubes, my girlfriend at a very successful company where practically no one below VP has an office. So, there's probably something more going on here.
First off, a small company, or a startup, has a hell of lot better things to do with its money than build offices for its employees. If it's not demonstrably benefiting the customer, it's not worth the investment.
Second, yes, cubes do allow more noise in, and yes, it can sometimes be a problem. But the root cause is usually not the absence of a door and ceiling: it's the lack of self-discipline that causes some folks to holler back and forth over cube walls, and it's the lack of an ability to focus that causes some folks to be distracted by any conversation in earshot. As engineers, we shouldn't be paid big bucks just because we can crank out good software under ideal working conditions. We should be able to do quality work under less than ideal conditions, and we should have enough discipline to not create those conditions for others.
Now, if your company doesn't recognize that excessive noise is a distraction and a productivity killer, then that might be a good reason to leave. But at the end of the day, demanding complete quiet and isolation is a prima donna attitude. Learning to filter out minor distractions is achievable, and greatly increases the range of places you'll be able to be productive in. That will only help you in the long run.
He only graduated from college one year ago. What does he know?
You're in the tech field.
At all times you should have 20+ people you could call to have a resume on the right desk the next day. Network (the people kind). Then network more.
You are in a place where job turnover is worse then at McDonalds. Outsourcing, cutbacks, takeovers by another company, etc. Your job is about as safe as a house below sea level in New Orleans - you WILL lose it, just a matter of time.
So plan ahead.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
This kid graduated in the spring of '04 and, only 15 months later, is complaining about the IT industry? Get in line. Or rearrange your priorities. I think the college kids of today - or young people in general - think they are "entitled" to a nice job, nice pay, organized management, etc. Ha! Welcome to the real "Real World."
He's complaining about cubicles??? I recall one time a client (the president and the head of technology) came to visit us and they commented that it's too quiet in the office. They said that they wanted to hear and see people talking, discussing, and creating new ideas, etc. Sorry, kid, but you don't get a shiny office straight out of college, or even ever in life. He's got his expectations way, way, way too high. (I wonder if this carries over in his interpersonal relationships, or not, with the fairer sex.)
And yes, management is dumb in some areas, but really, really, really smart in the one area that counts - longevity. If a project fails, management doesn't get the can. They find the "problem" in I.T. and fire them. They can always shift the blame, pass the buck, and fudge the bottom line. The question to ask is how can you stay on managements' good side? Time to put your pride aside and learn how to suck up.
Personal growth is something you do on your own time not on company's time. They ain't paying ya to discover your inner calling.
Compensation & Overtime has been ruled null & void by the the greater supply of IT people. We are interchangeable. If you don't like and tell that to management they'll find a replacement for you, not pay you more. Every programmer thinks he's the hot shit. Don't let that get to your head. You're not.
I think this kid needs to growing up to do. It's funny because the older guys at the office just smile when I complain. It's the "been there, done that" experience that you learn as you grow older.
Take them for what they are worth.
When to start looking for a new job
1) You notice that the best engineers are systematically leaving the company
- They are leaving for a reason. Maybe it's bad management, maybe it's bad pay. Whatever it is, you don't want it either.
2) You are forced to take a pay cut
- If you take a pay cut, take it when switching jobs. Your salary at a company should always be increasing, and never decreasing.
3) The coffee delivery man stops refilling your coffee machines
- Amenities getting cut in a budget crisis are one of the signs that further budget cuts are on the way.
4) The network gets locked down
- Some companies will lock down the network in an effort to eliminate wasted time. It leads to bitterness among the employees and rarely works out the way the management wants it to.
5) The company get-togethers become more frequent, but less extravagant
- HR is one of the first departments to know when things are going down the tubes. They respond by trying to raise morale with fun company get-togethers, but with a limited budget these get-togethers are less banquet celebrations and more confused standing around a punch bowl in the lunch room.
6) The CEO position has changed hands twice in one year
- It is not uncommon that a CEO will quit after a certain amount of time at the top. It is a bad sign, though, when a CEO can't last a year. Something is wrong with the business and he is getting out while the getting is good. You should follow his lead.
7) The CFO position has changed hands twice in one year
- CFOs are relatively harmless glorified accountants. Except when it comes to budgetary issues. If a CEO can't keep CFOs around, it is because they don't want to work for your CEO. Maybe you shouldn't either.
8) Your company announces a Brand New Direction
- Companies can't just change their direction. Every move should be calculated and based on the strengths of the company. If your company designs software to run banking systems, be wary when the CEO declares that the company will begin work on medical systems.
9) The atmosphere is acrid
- In a company where things are going well, there is usually a very strong atmosphere of comraderie. When things are going bad, or people are overstressed, that atmosphere turns sour. This cascades from the upper levels of management on down, so be aware when your coworkers stop being friendly.
10) The company opens a "research center" or "development center" in an impoverished country
- Companies have found that they can increase headcount by hiring low-cost engineers in impoverished countries like India. They will typically declare the foreign site as a development center to handle development overflow from the main office, and that no current employee will be let go (so relax, because you're safe). This seems to be okay until you notice that headcount in the local office is decreasing because the employees that are leaving aren't being replaced. Brain drain at any company is a serious issue, and one that is directly caused by this type of off shoring.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
If there's a sudden drop in the amount of communication from management then something is wrong.
If management is saying things that everyone in the room knows to be lies then you've got a major problem.
If new people are coming in and making things worse, you've got an incurable problem. "A players hire A players, B players hire C players". You cannot fix that kind of death spiral by working hard or even by working brilliantly.
How do you tell if you're job-jumping too quickly, overreacting to normal frustrations? Here's a hint. If you wake up two hours before your alarm goes off, throw up, and can't get back to sleep, then the time for toughing it out has been over for a long time.
No, no. That's the article.
When you're the IT guy for a company and you visit the page and see...
Service Unavailable
...and about 50,000 references to 'slashdot.org' in your log files.
That's when you quit. Let some other schmuck take care of that mess of melted aluminum and plastic on the floor.
"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
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The only time to leave that first job is when you have the second job lined up. There seems to be a large lack of reality inherent in the attached article
Don't work in cubicles, ever. Working in cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company. Imagine the smartest person you know, working in your field. Now imagine how they would react if they were told they're going to work in a box with no door or roof, allowing them no privacy.
Many graduates will never get a job with this advice. Most of the companies I have seen with graduate programs are large companies which means cubicles. Of course it also means a very good name on your resume, graduate rotations so you can experience different workstreams and some form of mentor program if you care to take advantage of it.
It also means many of the evils that come with corporations such as bad bosses, bad methods and general cluelessness. These can be opportunities to learn, or the bane of your existance. They can be both if you choose to learn everything you can from them and then do not move on. Learn how to achieve things in the corporate world, how to persuade management without offending them. That way when you go work at a smaller firm you will be able to communicate with your customers on their terms and understand where their requirements are coming from. If you have never experienced ISO9000 or the like from the inside you can never really appreciate some customer requirements.
This guy is setting himself and a number of people who buy into his philosophy for a rude shock. If you do not have the perfect boss, move on. If your boss allocates a function to a co-worker that you think you are better prepared for, move on. If your boss does not accept your estimates on times, move on. Basically if you are not Lord of all the eye can see, move on.
Reality is, some bosses are pains in the butt. So are customers. Learn to work with and aroudn them, then when you have learned all you can and learned how to recognise this type, feel free to move on. If you are a programmer advising the boss on how to manage a server, and he has server gusy for that, then there is a balance you need to strike. The boss is paying the other guy to perform these tasks. If he isn't up to scratch the boss should move him out and get someone else in. He shouldn't be delegating to you the tasks from other departments that you want. I have seen this issue so often with new people in companies who want to focus on what interests them and not on the job they were employed to do. The other guy probably can't program, so the boss would be paying two resources for the same role, and his project would be behind.
If you want to be proactive, I support it, ubt start in house. Suggest improvements to your own processes, document the undocumented, set standards. Then you get your bosses attention and suggestions for other areas will get more attention. But if you are a grad and you come in creating issues for other workers, you are the one who will suffer.
And you are a graduate, and you are giving estimates on how long it will take you to complete a task. Do you always have only one task or are you expected to run multiple jobs at once? You need to learn to negotiate. You can have this module in 8 days, but one of these others will slip. Email is your negotiating friend, as long as you use it as a record of agreements as opposed to a blackmail tool.
Finally, you need to stay in your first job for about 2 years. This gives you a job history as well as a reputation ofr being able to commit. 3 weeks in a job before kicking it will look negative on any resume, and you won't get a reference worth squat. The first 5 years in IT were hard work taking the job that best equipped me to get another job. Now I get to choose what I want to do and where I work, and I can demand an office. But I earned that, I didn't just complain or walk out when it wasn't handed to me
I don't wish to sound harsh, but why is a fresh graduate giving people career advice? It's not as if he has a surfeit of experience to draw on.
And it shows. Take advice number one: "don't work in a cubicle". You'll be looking a long time for a job that comes with its own office. Most corporations, especially, make sure that offices only go to managers above a certain rank. That's just how it is.
On the matter at hand, though, my advice to anyone wondering if they should quit is this: quit if going to work makes you feel sick to your stomach every day, and even then, only if you have a choice. If you have a mortgage or dependents, find another job *first*.
Oh, yeah, and one last piece of advice: it's called "work", not "happy fun playtime". Most jobs suck. Come to terms with that, and you'll be a man, my son.
I got laid off after six months of working as a Java developer--straight out of college. I had even interned with the company the summer before I graduated and everything was great until the day-to-day reality set it.
My boss was a micromanager and a bully as well. I would try to defend my decisions unlike other employees and I got into bad favor with management. The whole office was so badly run and management had no clue what employees were up to. I got blamed for something that I was partly responsible but didn't deserve to get fired for. But I did.
I was extremely disillusioned. The lack of jobs made it worse, but I bounced back with a brand new career in freelance writing. Sure I don't make as much money, but it's getting better and I love the work and the hours (9 am start).
At this point, I'm kind of glad it happened. Although, I don't know how I'll explain the huge gap in employment if the whole freelancing doesn't work out. At this point things are looking good. Getting fired isn't the worst thing. Not doing what you love is.
"A diplomat is a man who always remembers a woman's birthday but never remembers her age." -Robert Frost
This is something I noticed about graduates in particular - they often try too hard to please. (I did the same thing at my first job, and a few years later could recognise it the new hires.) It's your first job, so you are eager to impress, think that your performance and not 'office politics' is what will primarily determine your advancement etc., so you bend over backwards - lots of extra hours, neglect your personal life, etc. This phenomenon makes graduates particularly ripe for abuse - employers know that graduates are eager to impress, and will use you. If all goes well though then you'll soon realise your employer has no loyalty towards you, that he is the one who will be getting rich from all your hard work and extra hours, and that you should start focusing more on yourself. Unfortunately for me this realisation occurred in a rather negative way (basically I accidentally overheard my employer one day saying some, well, less than pleasant and rather dismissive things about me behind my back to another manager), but whatever the scenario, after the 'acceptance' phase you'll hopefully start putting your priorities right (which, roughly speaking, should be: (a) yourself first, (b) your loved ones second, and (c) your company third).
Of course, it doesn't always happen. I've seen people who have spent their whole lives programming, and still in their forties retain that child-like submissiveness and loyalty. At the other extreme, I've seen other who seem to instinctively understand the system even before they graduate, and right off the bat are looking after their own futures primarily (these people are usually the most successful in life, except for the arrogant ones with oversized egos). I sometimes think these various behavious are probably "hardwired" into us - the old 'alpha male' story, that may of us tend to instinctively be submissive/loyal to the 'leader' in the group, or alternatively some want to 'challenge' that leader and/or be the leader (in modern terms, start your own company).
Three things that scream GET OUT to me are:
;-)
1. Not getting the promotion you felt you deserved.
2. Being stuck using older technologies.
3. Having so little work to do that you become a slashdot "obsessive-compulsive reloader"
I have a burning desire to verbally bludgeon the author of this article, but instead I'll give a brief outline of my thoughts.
.NET is highly untested and nuclear power plants are the zenith of mission critical. If any nuclear power plants adopt .NET to run their plant, I'm moving to the moon.
A) This was your fisrt job. If you truly feel you can judge everything about the working world from your first job, you're shallow, incompetent and pathetic.
B) If you think succesful companies don't have cubicles, you're in for a very rude awakening when you get jobs #2 and #3, etc.
C) You were working for a startup. You should have demanded a very lucrative stock package. Most startups (and I really need to stress most--ask the SBA) fail! That's a risk you take and the stock package is the payoff if the comapny succeeds.
D)
Hey Chris, if you're expetations are this high for your first job, I pity you. You've got a long way to go and a great many things to learn.
--James
As far as I'm concerned, since he put NO effort into looking for a job, researching companies and talking to people about the company, he has little right to complain about the way things turned out.
There are plenty of students in their senior years who put some effort into their job hunts. Depending on your school, you may have a quality Career Services department that can be a lot of help. Or they may be idiots who don't know a thing about it.
If he got a job by doing nothing and waiting for a phone call, he should thank his guardian angel that he had the opportunity to work for a year.
.NET Ninjas
I don't think that I've bumped into any of those, are they like Tae Kwon Do-Dos?
Care to elaborate what "top company" you work for, so that I don't apply there, given what the colleagues and the employee selection process appear to be like? Are you one of their "smartest Comp Sci" grads? Does your job require computer science skills, but not manners?
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
You nailed it. This guy is simply upset because he got his butt kicked out office for the first time, and now he creates a rant-article about 'career guidance' to let some steam off. The bit of the 'loser-cublicles' tells it all. And of course, we can also see that this guy has a very high opinion of himself. Well, I think that is not the worse of it. As someone else has already noticed, when you have merely some months worth of experience, you are not very credible when discussing abot career guidance, and the unfairness of un-appreciated talents. Despite that bit of common-sense, there are some comments that let us get a glimpse of the opinion of (unfortunately) many other freshmen out there: they feel that there is no job good enough for them. Happily life tends to correct our misconceptions.
OMG, a 24-year old almost straight out of college who knows EVERYTHING! I've never encountered one of those before!
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PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
I work for a university so I see it all the time, the undergrad that thinks that their degree (and no real experience) should net them a great, high paying job in a low stress environment where they get what they want. Well, those that chase the numbers, usually end up getting screwed. No suprise, if you are fresh out of university with no experience, you aren't worth a whole lot at that point. Takes more time before you have the skills and experience to back up a big salary.
Guy strikes me as one of those. Ok, so maybe he really did get in a bad situation but his gripes scream of lack of experience. Cubicles are not always bad, maybe even not often. Personally, I wouldn't want an office at my current job. If we were all in offices, it would just make shit much harder and necessitate twice weekly staff meetings. As is, with us all in one room, we just talk as needed. If you are busy, you put your headphones on and people leave you alone. If not, you listen. Maybe people are talking about something that relates to you.
Not saying that's the case at all companies but to pretend cubicles are universally bad is stupid.
Same thing with the management gripe. On the surface it's some valid stuff, but tech people often get too caught up in thinking management is stupid. Well guess what? Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't make them dumb. There are realities in business that most tech people don't deal with. If your boss is good, you won't have to. However that doesn't mean they aren't there and that they don't have to be dealt with. Just because they have a different view than you, or won't do what you want doesn't make them stupid.
I mean I'd really like to spend about a million dollars upgrading labs in our department. That would be enough for all the top of the line hardware, software, desks, presentation equipment, etc that I'd like to have. However my boss would not be stupid for telling me no if I asked. Would it improve the education of our students? No question, and that is our prime goal here, it would be our product if we were a business. However it's not at all cost effective, nor within the amount of money available to us. Each year our group requests several hundred thousands of dollars for upgrades, and we never get near that much. However, we don't cry about management not supporting us. They want to know what we'd like, and we tell them. They weigh that, and decide based off of our resources what we can afford to get.
It's valuable to know when to leave a company but "when you work in a cube" and "when you and your boss disagree" aren't valid times. Also, when you are new to the market, espically wiht no work experience, consider lower pay. I'm ot saying lowball yourself, but look at what's offered. Often people who hire newbies for insane saliries are doing so because their expecations are unrealistic, much like yours. Realise that you aren't worth a ton and find someone who understands that. If you find a good place, you'll be given realistic tasks to your skills, chances to learn and grow, and people who know what's going on to guide you.
When I was fired from my first tech job, these were the signs...
1) 6 months before leaving: Snack room no longer contains free snacks. Just a water cooler.
2) 3 months before leaving: Water cooler no longer contains water, janitor stops coming frequently, VP takes a "sabbatical."
3) 1 month before leaving: Secretary is now cleaning the toilet and answering the phone; more employees go on "sabbatical," storage boxes begin to appear in my office.
4) 2 weeks before leaving: Secretary is now on "sabbatical;" bathroom is getting funky; I am now replacing the urinal cakes out of good will; my office is now doubling as a storage facility, "why is the DEA at our office?"
5) 1 week before leaving: "where is the CEO?"
6) Day I leave: I have been asked to go on "unpaid sabbatical"
7) 2 years after starting my unpaid sabbatical: I have yet to be called back to work.
true story... urinal mints and all
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Man that was the funniest onion article i've read in awhile!
I can sympathise with the problems of cubicles. However, for real inefficiency, try open plan! My current client, a well known retail bank, has everyone (except senior management who are on £150k+/year) in open-plan work areas as far as the eye can see...yes, open plan, no cubicles, no dividers just open plan...when I suggested that we might want to set up some 'quiet zones' where people could go to concentrate on actually doing some work I was told to buy an iPod!
Hey, look. A manager from EA has posted.
Was wondering when they would come by.
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I remember this feeling - long, long ago. My conclusion is that you should leave as soon as you find a better job - always.
The thing about loyalty (as well as trust, respect, etc etc) is that it should be earned. We all know the expression 'command respect' - what a load of nonsense. You can't order people to respect you, you have to earn it by giving respect - being worthy of respect or 'respectable' if you like. The same goes for loyalty: it has to be earned. Is the company loyal to you? No? Then you don't owe them any loyalty beyond what the contract says you are paid for.
Some have voiced the opinion that (most) companies display the characteristics of a psychopath: they will shamelessly and without remorse manipulate and exploit their customers and employees, and they will dump you when you no longer seem to be of use.
I dream of a cubicle. In this country (the UK), the norm is completely open plan. That is, you have a big room where everybody works with no internal walls or partitions. The open plan room I'm in at the moment is relatively OK, there's only five people in it and it is quite small. Yesterday I was at the Gherkin and the floor I was on was completely open except for a central core where the toilets, lifts and other services were, the cafeteria and the meeting rooms.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
wow! someone took there angry pills this morning!
Judging a job _only_ by the money ("I personally believe the time to leave that first tech job is when you can find another job that pays significantly more") is IMHO a case of literally not seeing the forest for the trees.
Money is a means, not an end. You can't eat money, you can't get much entertainment out of just looking at a bunch of 100$ bills, etc. The question is what you can do with them to improve your life quality, not the number alone, like some screwed-up game score.
And before you lash back with "well, duh, with more money you can buy more stuff and be happier", no, that's still not getting it.
Yeah, you can buy a bigger plasma TV or some high-end stereo or whatever, but if you end up in a job where an asshole demands your presence there 14 hours a day, and occasionally that you bring a sleeping bag and don't leave until he sees some program ready (yes, I've actually seen such an asshole)... you won't actually have the _time_ to actually _use_ those. You'll just have time to eat and flop into bed.
Additionally, let's talk about happiness on the whole. Even if money could buy some happiness, it's not a linear scale. Twice the money doesn't make you twice as happy. So you gain, what? Maybe 5% extra happiness in those 4-5 hours at home. If the price to pay is anywhere between 8 and 14 hours of pure hell at work, I'd say on the average you're actually worse off.
Guarding against the future? Hah. I'll tell you what's more likely to happen, because I personally know people who chose to work for an asshole for a lot more pay. You know how much they've saved for the future? Well, one was telling me at the end of last week that he's some $2000 in debt... right after salary day. (And that's not counting the debts for his car, the house, etc.)
Welcome to the deathtrap of consumerism. See, most people who try too hard to believe that success is measured in money alone, and that more money can literally buy happiness... end up literally trying to buy it. Or failing that, trying to convince themselves that theirs is the right way. ("Hey, look how much stuff I can buy with that money! Of course it's worth it! Why, that's what success is all about!")
The guy I was mentioning above, we're good friends, so I hear about it each time he gets a raise or a promotion. Also when he buys new stuff. Guess what? Each raise was followed by an even bigger increase in how much he spends. Each time he'll just get a bigger car, a bigger computer, then military-grade IR goggles for when he goes fishing, then now a bigger house in a whole other (more fashionable) town. (Just in case those 12 hours a day at the office weren't enough, now he'll also spend an extra 2 hours commuting.)
Those in turn just dig the trap deeper. Now with all those monthly payments and being in debt he _has_ to keep at it.
So what did he _really_ get out of it? Well, from where I stand, it looks like he's got $2000 debt, plus the loans for the car and house, and some 12 hours a day of high stress. Now with the extra commuting, he only gets to see his infant son briefly before going to sleep, and on weekends. Yeah, way to go.
My advice? Forget it. I've saved a lot more on a lesser wage. Not falling into the "money is everything, and consumerism is the way to show it off" trap tends to have that effect.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
This article is a Reed Richards for newsworthy. Software Engineer career advice by someone who's only out of college a year?
If you won't work anywhere that doesn't give an office, it'll be a rough ride with plenty of missed opportunity. I've never worked for a company that gives everyone their own office. The closest I've come to having my own office was a shared office with 3 of us, but that company only had 4 employees and 2 rooms, one office was the boss's, the other was ours. Everywhere else I've worked, it's always cubicles. In most companies I've worked at, no one below the 2nd tier of managers got their own office. Getting an office is a comfort and convenience issue, we make do with what we have. My girlfriend works for one of the most prominent local software companies, there's 2 offices, one for the boss, one for the manager. The other 20 employees have cubicles.
The article is okay, but everyone and their dog has advice on bad job warning signs. 20 years from now, your insight is going to be a lot more focused, and these reasons to think the company is doomed won't be as astute an observation as you think. The same things you list as warning signs to get out are also the same things I've seen in numerous successful companies, and they weren't signs of impending doom, they were signs of business-as-usual.
Did we get invaded? I hadn't noticed. ... I sure hope you are not posting form Iraq!
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
"Everyone cuts the schedule. If they didn't reduce the schedule from 8 to 6 days then they wouldn't be "productive". Get over yourself and learn to pad everything by the necessary 25% to 30% in time so that when they cut it out it's still attainable. But make sure it looks like a struggle doing it. If you get on schedule without massive OT then they cut goes from 25% to 35% to 45% and so on. One company I worked at they had a 75% fluff to every number just to survive all the management cuts that will come along during the budget reviews."
No, not everyone. Only PHBs act like that. If the company you work for has to do all that charade, and you _still_ end up with massive overtime, you've just told me you have a complete idiot for a boss. And let me get back to one particular management idiocy there:
"If they didn't reduce the schedule from 8 to 6 days then they wouldn't be "productive"."
No. Measuring productivity like that has got to count as not just clueless, downright surrelistic lack of clue. And let me give you just one reason why.
In this job everything can be done in 1001 ways, and about 900 of them are bad shortcuts. They involve write-only code, lack of testing, and generally just hoping that the quickest and dirtiest and most unmaintainable hack will just work on the first try. If you cut someone's time by 25% you've just told them to take such a bad shortcut.
The result isn't just bad unmaintainable code (which _will_ bite you in the ass when you want to make a v2.0), and not only just buggy, but it might blow the deadline even worse. Debugging bad code takes a lot longer, and debugging (in one form or another) is what you do some 90% of the time. A shortcut that's nearly impossible to debug, and nearly impossible to change into something else (e.g., when debugging says that your very choice of algorithm was wrong) will likely take longer to be ready.
Or it may never be ready. Someone I know is still stuck in a project that should have been finished in the last quarter of _2002_. But yeah, they were always under pressure, so they skipped testing almost completely until the end of 2004, they always fixed bugs via the quickest hack that can sorta work, never had time to figure out a _consistent_ way to implement that spec, or to get a good spec out of the client for that matter, and so on.
Having to add fluff to justify the deadline wrangling game, again, adds complexity and adds places where bad shortcuts will bite you in the ass.
So that kind of approach "productivity" just means making a bad product.
A product's architecture and the allocated time should involve understanding the pros and cons of each approach. That's what design is all about: making an informed choice, and knowing the price you pay for that choice. (And there will _always_ be a price to pay. In some cases it will just be much smaller than the gains.) Replacing it with a sad game in which management pats just themselves on the back for imposing an arbitrary 25% to 75% without even asking what's the effect, is pretty much _the_ nemesis of any kind of good design.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
He discusses warning signs you should look for in your own work environment that point toward "Getting out".
Yes, it sounds like it's out of a fiction story, and in fact the first thing happens in the movie Office Space. But all three happened in one of the companies I worked for, before laying off a bunch of people.
Here is what you do. You graduate as a computer or electrical engineering student. You move to Northern VA. You contact a big defense contracter like Lockheed or Northrupp. You get them to hire you contingent upon you getting a clearance. You work on project X when you get your clearance. You now hate your job but guess what you have a clearance so you can basically be a warm body to fill a slot and have about a thousand options open to you. (Btw I hate the warm body slot filling thing but god do I see it all the time!)
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
Well, he makes the point that you should have your own office, and while that would be ideal, does anyone know of a company that has the resources to give each of its programmers their own office? I've worked for two organizations, both had a history of success, and at both I've been put in a cube-like structure. It might be good to look out for places that will give you a lot of personal space, but really, how common is that?
"A players hire A players, B players hire C players"
Then how do you get B players?
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
> ...as much as we may dislike cubicles, a blanket statement like "working in
> cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company"
> is... well, a sure sign that the article's author hasn't worked at many
> companies.
Agreed. Cubicles can be an indicator, though. There are so many different styles. I would look at the working environment provided in the cubicle, and determine if it's mindless penny-pinching or part of a reasonable plan.
- Is the desktop space adequate for the work you need to do?
- Do you have adequate storage space, both shelves and file drawers?
- Is the cubicle height reasonable? Higher walls minimize distractions.
- Is the environment particularly noisy?
- Is the size of most people's cubicles significantly reduced because they are used for storing supplies, equipment, and files that have nothing to do with their work? *
- Are adequate conference facilities available for brainstorming sessions and other -productive- meetings?
- Are developers actively discouraged from forwarding calls to voice mail or performing other tactics used to minimize interruptions temporarily?
- Is hard disk space, either local or network, in unusually short supply?
Comments? Other warning factors?
--------
* I worked in one office where everyone's cubicle space was reduced by the size of between four and ten of those long boxes for file folders. Some people could barely get to their desks, and all because the company was too cheap to either get storage space or get rid of old (non-financial) files and obsolete hardware.
You're absolutely right. I don't know of a single large company that *doesn't* use cubes. It makes me question the writer's knowledge of...anything. He admits he didn't do anything to look for a job, didn't even bother to listen to alumni dispensing career advice because it was "all very, very dry." He grabbed the first one that made an offer, and got disillusioned when they canned him. Well, duh. Put a little effort into that job search, you'll have less chance of that happening.
There are other signs that make me think I'd like to hear management's side of the story. For one, he sounds like a prima donna. His sole qualification is a Bachelors in CS from a middle tier school, and he acts like he should be given the golden boy treatment in his first job. An office for a kid who knows .NET? Company car?!?!? Sorry, Charlie, the 90's are gone and that crap's over.
Also, he sounds a bit arrogant - implying that anyone over 40 doesn't know what they're doing, mentions that management didn't take his advice, etc. That could be true, or it could be that he's an arrogant little man who can't constructively work as part of a team.
I also wonder how good he was at his job - he says that management told him he wasn't picking up the work fast enough, and that he was just "barely middle of the pack." He says that was them "setting the employees up for failure." Yeah, that's one option. That or they don't think he's getting the job done.
Finally, this wasn't a mass firing. The impression I got was that he was selected to be let go among the team. He claims they blamed it on finances, but legally they would anyway, in all likelihood.
We only have one side of this story - it could well be another case of a kid coming out of college with a ton of arrogance, no respect for people who have a ton more experience than he, skills that didn't translate to his job, and a problem working with others. Perhaps there's a reason he was canned?
The Access example given is a good strawman arguement, but in other cases the boss is there to say we don't need a fully fault tolerant tool to count to 10, where a for loop works just as well.
Learning is a two way street here. Sometimes things need to be done in a way which answers other questions to which you are not even aware of their existance. If your boss asks you to do it in a particual way, pehaps you should ask Why? and see if there is a need or reason from some other requirement that answers that.
Boss: I need application foo to do x, y, z(prime, delta, gamma...)
Me: Okay, sure. 6 Weeks.
Boss: 3 Days.
Me: !!?!?!
And while I did get the hell out of that job, I did learn that I was pushed to build tools quickly and design application that where able. Plus I learned another lession- build tool kits. In my current job (4 years and counting), I've built a huge took kit, everything from logging tools, to database handlers, to user sub-systems, and even a complete help system which will taken an entire directory and translate the word files into a help file.
Since 90% of the stuff we're developing is simplely made of problems that we've been solving since our first programming classes, having these toolkits makes life so much easier and less stressful, especially when you do have those insane deadline bosses.
If the company is willing to pay for your classes, great, if not, save and pay for your own.
Overtime is part of the deal when being a full time salary employee- sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
I agree with the final thoughts- I will add that figure out what makes you happy, and look for companies that offer things that are close to your goals and then try to get into those companies- and if that means you're going to have to wait a few years for an opening, so be it.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Duing the 15 years I ran my own computer consulting business I discovered one nice test to determine what small business owners actually feel about the welfare of their employees:
Are the bathrooms kept clean and stocked?
Employers who don't care about their employees usually don't care about the employees environment. The employee bathrooms are pig styes.
Some other tips I picked up through experience:
Larger businesses and corporations usually have janitorial services so for them the "Bathroom Test" doesn't apply. In that situation the best way to evaluate the corporate environment is to talk with the in-house coders, if any, or other employees. If their remarks suggesst managers whose behavior indicates that they are graduates of the Atilla The Hun School of Management then its time to investigate other opportunities. Paper clip counting is a dead give-away.
If the PCs and other hardware are antiquated or poorly maintained its time to look elsewhere.
If most of the employees are recent hires themselves but the company has been around for a while then its time to look elsewhere.
If they want you to punch a clock then look elsewhere.
If they want you will be "salaried" instead of you billing them and there is no cap on the hours you'll be working then look elsewhere.
Which leads to: If they want you to violate one or more of the 20 or so IRS rules that determine if you are an independent consultant or an employee then look elsewhere.
If they are paying you out of a "special" fund then look elsewhere.
If they want you to code two sets of book, one for the IRS and one "just to give them a bottom line" then look elsewhere.
If the secretary confides in you that the boss is running a prostitution ring on the side, and those bobcats from California have cocain welded into the 4X4 bucket support beams, you'd better be looking elsewhere.
If the owner is a business partner with the local IRS agent then you'd better look elsewhere.
If employers don't respect the law then they won't respect the employees or the consultant.
If employers don't respect their employees they won't respect the consultants they hire.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
(parts of this previously posted by me)
The social contract is broken irretrievably, and we all need to adapt to the new reality. The new reality is, don't get too comfortable, keep the resume up to date, and move on the minute things are the slightest bit fishy. Some signs to look for:
o No more free pens in the stockroom, now the admin hands them out one by one and makes you sign for them.
o An all-company memorandum from the CEO shows up suddenly, responding to hallway rumors or soft-pedaling bad news.
o The perennial blame game between Sales, Marketing, and Engineering stops simmering and comes to a full boil in the hallway.
o A top executive (any top executive) leaves mysteriously.
o Sales guys start leaving (more than one is big trouble)
o "The Board" starts poking around and introducing themselves to people.
o A routine purchase request for equipment is turned down, regardless of justifications presented.
o There is an odd new emphasis on collections activity.
o "Investors" start showing up for tours of the engineering department.
o The annual customer conference is canceled or postponed.
o A delivery date is moved forward inexplicably, without consulting the engineers on the project.
o It is impossible to get a reasonable explanation from your boss for a clearly unreasonable situation or request.
o You are asked to stop work and "document" your project at a time that seems inappropriate and wrong.
o You are asked to sign any document "acknowledging" your equity position (if any), when it should be abundantly clear what your equity position is.
One small way to protect yourself (and to acquire information about the company's activities that they would not normally share with you) is to take advantage of any stock purchase plan (real stock, not options) put forward, and buy a few shares (preferably as few as possible). This will at least make you privy to the legal documents around acquisition scenarios and so on.
But the best way to protect yourself is to get the resume engine revved up the minute you see the warning signs above. No need to delay. Get the hell out.
you're a crybaby. no one will hire you if you expect them to give you an office and conform to all of your silly demands. sometimes we work in cubes. sometimes (often) managers are older and set in their ways. sometimes your estimated project time just isn't soon enough, and someone else will be found that can get it done yesterday. you've got a lot to learn, grasshopper.
/. isn't the place to refer to yourself as a ".NET ninja" and be taken seriously. sheesh.)
now that you've written all this blabbing and signed your name to it, any potential employer who has the sense to search google for your name with trash your resume in a heartbeat.
go work for a few more years before you start handing out "advice" like this...
(also,
The inexperience of the author is overwhelmingly evident in the "take no crap, live in my fantasy world" tone that he takes. Don't work in cubicles? Yea right, so where is the other 95% of the IT industry going to work since they are now barred from working at any company which doesn't piss away all it's money on overpriced urban real estate so every junior level coder can have their own office. To equate a company's respect for it's employees with whether or not they give you an office is a clear fallacy and will bar the author from working at many, many fine companies. Don't get me wrong, I hate cubeland too...HATE it. As a noncomformist it really rubs me the wrong way. However, it's the reality of what you have to put up with in this industry. It's a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things.
He rambles on with the usual "the boss doesn't take my genius advice" garbage too. It's not surprising and I certainly had my complaints about how they did things at the company I was laid off from a year out of college. However, that's how things are. Your goal should be getting in to a company where the higher-ups make good decisions so you don't HAVE to feel like everyone is stupider than you. I think a lot of times it's a corporate culture issue and you need to find a place which does things the same way you would do them. It doesn't necessarily mean that a company is bad just because everything isn't done the way you want it. The higher ups are the higher ups and they are going to do things they way they want to do them whether you agree with them or not. If the company is doing stupid things, I would agree that it could be a warning sign, but this dude frames it as though his junior level advice is supposed to matter. It's good to have a boss that listens to everyone, but sometimes you do not understand all the factors involved.
One of the most important things I think you learn working for companies in offices your first couple years out is office and company politics. There are SO many factors that go into decision making beyond what is technically important. Sometimes those other factors result in bad technical implementation, but a lot of times those other factors are just the reality of doing business and you need to accept them and work with them rather than chafing against them with the "I'm a genius" attitude the author takes. You as the junior level employee are not always privy to all the information which goes in to making a decision.
Certainly, there are bad managers and bad companies out there, but I think this dude is just not framing his advice in the right way. He comes off as the bitter, smarter than you tech worker who just got laid off. I think his attitude is part of the learning process, but I also think that he is giving bad advice to people who may be in a similar situation. He's making it out as if you're going to find a utopian place to work in your first couple years out: not going to happen for most people. I certainly don't encourage anyone to stay somewhere they're not happy, but you need to think about the balance of experience you're getting and what you're going to do in the future. If you keep quitting jobs because they're not treating you like a king, you will never, ever get a job you really like. When you're on the bottom rung sometimes you need to suck it up and put in your time. A lot of times, as you get more experience, things will start to make more sense to you.
I don't mean to come off as the jaded gray cubeland dweller. I certainly want to change certain things where I work and I am not exactly a conformist on any level. However, there are things you learn with experience that you just don't learn any other way. Now, with a couple years under my belt, I am just starting to understand why things are done the way they are. I am fortunate to be at a company which I think makes really excellent policies, in general, and being here it's easy to see that there are things I don't understand which actually result in a network that works pretty well. Coming to understand those factors is what you learn by sticking it out and not demanding the corner office right away.
Be thankful for your cubical. One of the top level executives at our company decided that cubicals cut down on inter-departmental communication. So... down came the cubical walls. I now work in a totally open office. EVERYONE can see what is on my monitor ALL THE TIME. Since I spend a large part of my time doing solid modeling and FEA work, I have an audience far more often than I would like. I do not work well in a fishtank. Ironically, the home office (where top-lvl-exec spends most of his time) has cubicals. Just us unwashed red-headed step children that can't. The only silver lining is I have a test lab I can hide in when I want to browse me a little /.
-
I work for an extremely successful software company (Google is one of our clients) - I work in a cubicle - The office is in Chicago's Merchandise Mart - for those of you about to rock, I salute you, but for those of you who don't know, the MM takes up two entire city blocks (which in Chicago means it's 1/8 mile x 1/4 mile), has its own zip code and is the largest commercial building in the world - Only 5% of the people who work in the building are fortunate enough to have an office on an exterior wall of the building (with a window!) - where the hell are they going to put everybody else? build offices out of the whole scenario? Perhaps I'm a sucker, but I'd rather work with my headphones on (like I would anyway) and have the company's money go toward the huge bonus I'll get at the end of every year for working hard than toward them re-modeling the interior of this building - work is just where I work to get money to do the things I do when I'm not at work - the cubicle (or "office" as I like to call it) is the least of my issues
I rate this article a 2 out of 5 - if the kid hadn't put his graduation year in the article, I still would have been able to guess his age just from his idealistic rant with little real substance - "don't work for a manager that's an idiot" - Brilliant advice, captain underpants! yes, it's true that it's difficult to work for someone you don't respect, but in the real world (aka, not in your high school honors class) you're going to work with people who are of different levels of intelligence, people with different types of analytical skills, etc. Calling everybody stupid just because you're, as mentioned in the article, 'disillusioned' is what we call (in the grown up world) "being a fucking baby" - which we normally follow with "grow up"
calling all destroyers
Always be aware of the writing on the wall. Generally, bankruptcy makes for a really bright red flag.
Also, they had taken away the water coolers. Another pretty good sign.
In my last few days, they told me that as a non-exempt employee, my status would have been determined by performance, not how long I'd worked there (I was the youngest). I didn't perform too badly, but honestly, I wasn't going to stick around and find out.
Also, networking is a great thing. It's how I got my current job.
-Rob
Biblical fiscal responsibility
The truth is that company loyalty shouldn't be expected anymore; the people that extoll their adoration your work, dilligence and effectiveness are the very same ones that will let you go. You leave a job when the job doesn't satisfy your own personal balance of perks and financial compensation. This may sound unreasonably cynical, and certainly, things are seldom black & white, but alas, staying somewhere because of some quaint, Pleasantville-era work ethic has a much more negative net effect on your life than simply quitting and forging ahead.
When do you quit? As many here have noted, when that first round of layoffs is announced, when the perks and benefits start being trimmed, when it is painfully clear that the environment in which you work is more of a pean to mediocrity than a medium for productivity. I know, I know. I've just effectively nixed most companies (even some successful ones,) but the truth is that in the post-internet-resume world, IT workers are commodities (whether here or in India) and workplace egotism in a necessary evil.
We are all mercenaries. Don't do pensions, don't recite the latest company mantra, don't put up with abusive bosses, deadwood or pervasive mediocrity and don't bet on the come. Get your money when you can, stash it away (for you never know if you'll see it again) and retire on your terms.
I find it difficult to take career advice from a guy who's been in the working world barely a year.
This happened to me this very year, not to mention they tried their hardest to forget to pay me severance, my vaction pay, any way they could cheap out.
Sounds like a classic "last period" problem where there is a greater chance of "opportunistic behavior" when a "relationship" is ending.
It also sounds like the company is either poorly managed or near it's end. Remaining employees are likely to learn of your treatment. The one time I had the opportunity to witness a company in trouble it at least had management that was smart enough to take care of the people in early layoffs very well. This was reassuring to those who remained and gives the impression that the problems are temporary and survivable.
FWIW, when I quit my last job I did so on my return from vacation.
There are several lessons that the author--who is clearly little experienced in the work force--should take away here. For one thing, posting about the "signs" that he should've seen, particularly when those signs are generally wrong, doesn't come off as good advice to people who've been professionals for awhile. It comes off as sour grapes. Why is he wrong? Let's find out.
Cubicles are of the devil
Repeat after me: No, they're not. With proper soundproofing tiles on the ceiling and carpetted floors, you should be able to hear only your closest neighbors, and drowning them out is what comfortable headphones are for. If you can't get into the zone and do quality work, that's a personal issue, not your employer's. If you are having a hard enough go of it, you should talk to your manager about the problem.
Management is stupid
Generally, you can't get away from this. However, the cases that he cites as management incompetence really weren't necessarily icompetence at all. The author was upset because people like working the way they're most efficient. He seems to think that every new piece of technology makes people more efficient, which is a belief that is only held by recent college graduates. The problem with new technology is that it requires time to retrain your brain. And if the technology really is more efficient (and I would argue that few new languages truly have resulted in massive productivity increases), the question becomes: is the new technology so efficient that the retraining costs will be overcome by the productivity increase we'll get when everyone is running full speed? Usually, the answer is no, or at best "maybe." That's not something you want to stake the future of the company on, which is what you're doing at a small company.
Further, he was upset that after he studied for a few hours, management wasn't convinced that he was the right person to do a full reformat/install of their primary development server. WHAT A SHOCKER! If he were a real go-getter, he would've come in anyways, so he could've learned what the actual problems were going to be during the procedure. Then next time he was somewhere where this came up, he could've at least had cursory experience with the issue.
Personal Growth
I can't really disagree when he says companies should provide mechanisms for personal and professional growth. But what I can say is that when management is telling you that you are in the middle of the pack, look inward. If they're telling you that you're middle of the pack, you're probably actually closer to the bottom. If you feel you're working your hardest and management is telling you that you're not doing a great job, it might be that it's time for a career change.
Compensation isn't everything
That's true, but on the other hand, no one wants to be paid less than they're worth. The key here is that if you're at a job that makes you happy, you'll be more productive and a better employee. Consequently, you'll be recognized by your employer, and generally compensated more.
Final thoughts
It seems to me that what happened in this situation is the author was inexperienced and didn't realize what he'd gotten himself into. His job was a high-risk, high-reward situation. The company promised him ground-floor entry into what they thought was going to be a big hit. Turns out they weren't right, and he hadn't done his due diligence first. The theory with startups is that you churn and burn, and when you're done you can retire at 25. Of course, the reality is that 99% of startups fail and employees are left with nothing but the experience.
When interviewing for a position, the most important thing is to realize that you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. During the interview, when asked if you have any questions, ask if you can meet some of the other team members you'll be working with alone. Tell them you'd like to get a feel for the l
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
We only have one side of this story - it could well be another case of a kid coming out of college with a ton of arrogance, no respect for people who have a ton more experience than he, skills that didn't translate to his job, and a problem working with others. Perhaps there's a reason he was canned?
..."
Agreed, this guy may have simply have been clueless.
"Oftentimes, a non-technical manager, or an "old hand" who's edge is no longer sharp will be impressed enough to listen to your technical advice. If they were smart, they'd actually take it."
As someone who worked full time while in school I offer the following advice to recent grads. What we learned in class, and from textbooks, is often more theoretical than practical. Also, believe it or not there are sometimes rational reasons for not choosing the ideal technical solution. YMMV.
"This one needs no explanation
Actual it does, the original author's words are those of a clueless newbie. Classic. Hopefully he was just overstating things out of frustration.
"... If you tell management that it will take 8 days, and they turn around and tell you they think it will take six, you need to leave. Rushed work is almost always subpar."
Rushed work is not the only solution to the timeframe problem. For example you can drop features. It often turns out that some are not essential. Cutting your timeframes may be management's subtle way to tell you that you are consistently over-designing, gold-plating, or otherwise doing unnecessary work.
This also helps employee moral to a small extent - people are not all in the same ubiquitous cubicle, they are in a work space that they designed. It is also important to allow employees to move their desks around within their space, otherwise there is very little customisation that can happen.
By the way, I hope you charged your iPod to expenses.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
.... The CEO of your company tosses chairs in anger and rants about "killing" people.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Apparently the answer to "when to leave your first tech job" is, in this gentleman's opinion, "before they lay you off". Which may be accurate, but it doesn't provide any insight for the rest of us.
My own advice could be summed up thusly:
1. If you HATE your job, leave and find another one. Nothing's worth being miserable for 1/2 to 3/4 of your waking hours every day.
2. If you think your job is just mostly OK, and you've been there for less than a year, stick it out for the full 12 months before you move on. Nobody's going to want to hire someone who has a history of job-hopping every six months, because they assume you'll do the same thing to them.
3. If you've been at your current company for more that five years, and the company has not shown you signs that they're trying hard to keep you there (fat raises, promotions, etc.), then it's likely time to move on.
4. If you can't imagine enjoying anything more than you enjoy your current job, stay with it!
I've just noticed that the typical poster here seems to lean more left than right.
Constitutionally Correct
This is a great speech for engineers.
Commencement address by Steve Jobs on June 12, 2005
Here's an interesting book about a little company called ID Software
Masters of Doom
Note to author, the glass is half full. You're less than two years into (possibly) a long career and already very jaded. Open your eyes and try to learn more about your situation instead of pointing fingers at why the world has wronged you...
Well, I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd be amazed if you're not being out and out roasted for a questionable sense of entitlement and for the authoritative tone you used to describe an industry you've really only just dipped your toes into. That said, people with a lot of varied experience will be posting, so hopefully they'll clear up some misconceptions that you and others might have.
/. in mind, but as you no doubt have already realized by this point in the thread, implying that people working in what must be the most common /. workspace by FAR aren't productive and should immediately start looking for a new job because their company can't succeed may not have been the best way to win over the masses. It at least cancels out the automatic karma boost you get for providing an excuse to complain about work. And maybe M$ does give all its developers offices--they're still putting out generally crappy products, and they're looking like they're going to get left in the dust on new tech by Google and Yahoo.
/. at work, because everyone could see. And if I had my own office--well, let's just say that when I saw the episode of Seinfeld where George Costanza started taking naps under his desk, I immediately started thinking about when I could get an office. Maybe you're a self-motivated, responsible worker, but most recent grads need more than a modicum of supervision to keep them on task.
I think a big misconception is the idea that a BS in anything should be hired by a company like Microsoft or Google as developer right out of college. People all over the world want that job, and if you think you deserve better pay and perquisites than a kid working his ass off in Bangalore--or anywhere--you'll have to prove it. What's more, there's always going to be a demand for nuts and bolts "in-house" guys. I'm not sure that there's ever going to be *any* demand for 20-somethings with vague ideas about "next generation user interfaces"--at least, not since 1999.
Also, you may not have written this article with
I think your only defense here is that you're *just* talking about developers, developers, developers. In finance, I've worked on open desks that make my current cube feel like a Fortress of Solitude. My supervisor worked on the same loud, open desk where everyone could see everyone else's work and hear their phone conversations, and he was pulling in well over seven figures GBP. An open floor is just better for communication, and that can be important in collaborative work. Besides that, who wants an office without a window? And don't try to tell me that everyone should have an office *with* a window--that would result in either a lot of giant offices or a lot of empty buildings.
The point is, if I were still on an open floor I'd *never* have the nerve to cruise
I guess my final point is that you seem to be doing to management exactly what you accuse them of doing to you. That is, saying that you know how to do their job better than they do, despite the fact that you aren't trained in it. Are there a lot of truly crappy managers out there? Of course. Is a degree in management a good predictor of managerial ability? Probably not. But everyone thinks that they can be a manager/executive, just like everybody thinks they can be a politician. The truth is that it's harder than it looks. Management makes decisions that affect a lot of different groups, and it's usually impossible to make decisions that each individual group agrees with wholeheartedly. While you may feel entitled to things like well-paid overtime, a private office, and de facto managerial control over your time and projects that you take an interest in, it's management's job to define your job in the best interests of the company.
In the end, I think you're right to think that you should have left earlier, and management was probably right to let you go. It wasn't a good fit. Whether you can find a good fit without changing your expectati
"Someone somewhere had to wear pants for the first time. The meek and indecisive do not change our world." -Montville
This topic is so appropriate for today.
I was cleaning out some old boxes and found a payslip from 1993. That was my 1st tech job and I quit it when the government announced that the Minimum wage would be raised to above what I was making then.
It brought into focus just how horribly underpaid I really was.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
After reading through many of the posts, I find it alarming that people are focusing on external factors. Try looking inward. Are you truly happy doing the work you're doing?
I realize that many of the external factors contribute to how you feel about your job, but everyone has a different definition of happiness. Some people want more money, some want a quite workplace, some want free pens, some just want a place to go and earn a living that can pay their bills and allow them to not be bothered.
Get a grip on what YOU want. If some of the things in your company is not jiving with your personal needs, but the majority of it is, it may not be the right time to jump ship. Some people really enjoy working 14-16 hours a day because their job is the only time they get human interaction. If this makes you happy, then great! No one can tell you to leave your job (except your boss and perhaps security).
I'm also a big advocate of keeping your resume up to date and posted on job websites. Even though you are happy where you are, you need to keep your options open and your interview skills up to snuff.
The point is, look to what you want to do with your life and career, instead of looking for a list of reasons to leave a job.
VD
it were a business.
company loyalty died in the 80's. No company will keep you if they thought they could save a few thousand dollars with a replacement.
this is why unions can be a good thing for both the person and for the company, in the long term.
I ahve seen companies lay off people with 30 years of knowledge just to end up spend over a million dollars dealing with the sudden hole in the knowledge workforce. true story.
I ahve been in meeting where some managment persn wants to eleiminte people withuot considering what the do. In this case I was able to get them to relize that firing the only people who knew how there system ran was a bad thing. I also lost MY job over it. My manager wasn't to happy I went over his head.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The real way to tell how your company is doing: pay attention to facilities maintainance. Is the company repainting things? Is the carpet being regularly cleaned? Is resurfacing the parking lots? How does the landscaping look? Are all the lightbulbs working? It seems silly, but things like these are usually the first things to get cut when the company starts going south and the last thing to come back when it recovers. So if your company is keeping the building looking nice, you're probably doing pretty well. If your building looks pretty cruddy, you may want to get your resume polished up.
Many people will attack the author because of his inexperience. I will only support his point that software developers shouldn't accept a cubicle. If a company cannot afford to provide a proper working environment for each of their employees then they simply have too many employees. Is it any surprise that the same companies with vast farms of cubicles are forced to shed bodies at the merest dip in their stock price?
Facilities expenditures are dwarfed by salary. You don't have to remove many salaries to cover the difference in costs for offices vs. cubicles for software developers. By offering a good work environment, existing empolyees will produce better work and the company will be able to attract higher quality candidates. This results in a net increase in productivity despite reducing head counts.
In other words, cubicles are a false economy. Rather than saving money, business are forced use the savings from cubicles to hire more mediocre employees.