Slashdot Mirror
China Going Up and Coming Down
SoCalChris writes "The BBC writes that China has just completed the world's highest railroad, climbing to 16,640 feet (5,072 meters) above sea level. The cars will be sealed to help passengers cope with the pressure changes from the altitude. The line is expected to begin carrying passengers next year." This news comes at the same time that their Chinese taikonauts return from their spaceflight after just 115 hours in orbit.
SoCalChris writes "The BBC writes that China has just completed the world's highest railroad, climbing to 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*5*13 feet (2*2*2*2*317 meters) above sea level. The cars will be sealed to help passengers cope with the pressure changes from the altitude. The line is expected to begin carrying passengers next year." This news comes at the same time that their Chinese taikonauts return from their spaceflight after just 5*23 hours in orbit.
This just seems unsafe to me. Imagine something goes wrong and the train is stuck up at that altitude. Then what?
I remember riding a train that had colided with a truck a few years back. This wouldn't likely happen at that altitude, but what could happen would be wildlife and environmental blockage.
It seems like a challenge to me.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
With these two accomplishments added to the Slashdot article about them having pasta first makes for a very big week for the Chimese. I have seen some speculation that some of the xinhua photos may have been fakes. They do look impressive. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-10/17/conte nt_3623214.htm
Well that seals the cultural genocide of the Tibetan people.
:wq
Ok, goody for them. Having a third player in space is probably a good thing even if they are the communist Chinese since they probably won't remain communist a lot longer. On the other hand it is just another doomed government 'prestige' program that won't actually acomplish much before being abandoned the second the cost exceeds the publicity value and that always happens long before anything longterm good can happen.
Nope, the only hope of our species getting off this rock is private enterprise.
Democrat delenda est
World biggest roller coaster?
-- Por mais que eu ande no vale das trevas e da morte, meu PowerMac G4 Não Travará!!!
At first I was thinking this sounds awfully xenophobic...
And then I thought "He who underestimates the chinese is a fool"...
But then I realized, I agree. Their track record at honest reporting of events isn't so good.
I'm glad China's having good progress (in many respects). I do hope their government loosens up (maybe money'll soften them like it did ours) so they allow freedom (since it means more money) to speech and internet and whatnot. Just tell them that!
Now, I really really do hope China doesn't make giant killer robot, and I'll be fine with them for good.
random underscore blankspace at ya know hoo dot comedy.
Um, I think if they were faked, it would be all over western news. Kind of like how if the Apollo landings were faked, every other country in the world (which includes the Soviet Union) would have reported that the US faked them.
In case if someone doesn't realize, the lower four pictures are simulated artwork, which is what the blue heading indicates in Chinese. Please don't shout "they're fake."
I once had a signature.
It also comes at the same time that the number of Chinese people living in extreme poverty rose by 800,000 last year.
While we [the /. crowd] bitch and moan about Microsoft and while the great herd worry more about Britney's spawn than credible science, more about the latest American Idol than engineering and while China and India graduate more scientists and engineers than the US...you can expect many, many more reports like this. The 21st century just may be when the Sino-Communist brand of capitalism eclipses lAmerican power and influence.
The National Climate Centre said in June that rising temperatures would affect operation of the railway by 2050. I don't understand. How would rising temperatures affect a railroad at 16,640 feet, much less affect any railroad?
Yeah too bad they'll now suffer terribly with expanded access to new goods and services, educational opportunities, and contact with the outside world besides 1-2 hollywood stars visiting ever 2 years. I just hope the Chinese government doesn't do anything terrible like build more hospitals or expand access to electricity... Damn them for having spent $3 billion in local Tibetan communities on this project and creating thousands of jobs...
Real shame that the standard of living in Tibet has risen steadily from the subsistence level ever since the CCP took control, huh?
I actually rode on the Central Rail Line in Peru which was the former highest. Now I am going to have to go to China to ride this thing.
DAMN.
I will say the Peruvian one seems still a bit more challenging - no wussy sealed cars. You get to experience altitude sickness in all its glory.
Are they talking about funicular trolleys or actual heavy rail? Because heavy rail generally sees a 4% grade as a maximum due to, well, physics. Since I'm not aware of any fantastic engineering innovations, this must be some sort of light rail--or at least lighter than standard heavy rail.
Asparagus has many and excellent powers.
Ok but, why would they simulate those landing rockets, if not for increased awe? Or do you think they actually were there?
I'd like to know what a rocket scientist would think of landing rockets on the bottom of the capsule, blasting off (presumably) after the parachutes have detached. That picture smells like propagandistic hype to me, but IANRS.
from the first paragraph of the article: "one of the world's highest train routes."
but what advantage does the railroad have over trucks/busses or planes? I was under the impression that they're rather dangerous and costly in comparison. I mean, here in the US Amtrak is struggling because of the derailings and the fact that it just isn't cost efficent... am I missing something?
Yeah, and the US space program has advanced from that point in leaps and bounds hasn't it?
I mean, it seems like only yesterday that we planned to send people to Mars, and look where we are today.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
The images on Xinhua are meant to demonstrate the capsule landing. They're not pretending to be actual photos. You should know better than to trust headlines with a question mark at the end of them.
This news comes at the same time that their Chinese taikonauts return from their spaceflight after just 115 hours in orbit.
Yeah I mean, the chinese have it easy. 115 hours? In my day we stayed in space for at least a year so that at least it was worth it. Hell, we had to communicate down to Houston once in a while to make sure they didn't forget about us. And the trip wasn't easy. We had to endure a hell of G force. Both ways. And we like it!
Well...I guess the legend of the Mongolian Butt Picker is true! You can pick your friends, you can pick your butt...but you cannot pick your friend's butt! Mookie da Wookie is a Mongolian Butt Picker!
Haha maybe this'll cheer you up:
2 7/content_446335.htm
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-05/
"The name may not roll off the tongue quite like American Idol does, but that hasn't kept the Mongolian Cow Sour Yogurt Super Girl contest from sweeping China. Zhao Jingyi, 17, the "schoolgirl" candidate won the Changsha competition.
Like Idol, which named its winner Wednesday night, China's Super Girl gives aspiring singing stars a shot at televised fame and fortune."
Looks like American culture has spread far and wide...
So, the Beastie Boys posting on /. Awesome! C'mon, for old time's sake...What's the time? Time to get ill! Say it! Say it!
blah blah blah
...join the mile high club without ever leaving the ground!
-EL
This type of thing goes on all the time in western media, and there was no attempt to pass off the images as actual photographs. It's just a misconception put forth by xenophobic conspiracy nuts.
The sheer arrogance emitted from some posts are really not worthy of slashdot, and/or its readers/posters.
What China has done, - in terms of the Qinhai-Tibet rail-line, or its spacecraft, - is not better, nor worse, than those from other countries.
Do we see any comments like the
" Some of the images of the spacecraft look fake"
and
"and the ones that don't look fake show damage on the spacecraft"
and
"This just seems unsafe to me. Imagine something goes wrong and the train is stuck up at that altitude?"
and
"Well that seals the cultural genocide of the Tibetan people"
and
"Wow, you are finally almost to the point where the USA's space program was over 40 years ago. That is impressive"
and
"It also comes at the same time that the number of Chinese people living in extreme poverty rose by 800,000 last year"
ad nauseum
if the spacecraft or railway is from the United States of America or Russia ?
This development of sheer arrogance, is not checked, might even venture into the territory of racism.
I'm an /. old-timer, and I'm really sad to see /. goes to the dog because of these type of postings.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
You had me until the 'capitalist' part. Chinese have so few freedoms, and businesses are no exception. I researched them for a human right project last year and, while there are many successful businesses in China, it happens falsely most of the time with heavy government interference. Without it much of their economy would crumble. Most of the big names in Chinese business are at least partially government owned or run. While they are not entirely 1984, i wouldn't go so far as to call them capitalism either, I'd rather not soil that name.
I am Spartacus
Did the Parent say it was fake- NO. It merely said some were speculating they were fakes. Perhaps you should learn to read something other than nuts putting forth xenophobic conspiracy ramblings.
Just curious, did you create the throwaway account 2roll4life7 (900131) before creating 2*2*3*75011 (900132)?, Couldn't you just peek for the latest ID (923669 at time of writing)?
BTW: why don't they use some kind of limit clause on those queries? It seems they load the entire table and then loop forward to the starteth row!?
Me lost me cookie at the disco.
I am really starting to hate the China apologists on /. Way to go! you mention the railroad but you dont mention WHERE the railroad was made. If you read up on it you see that it was made to link China to TIBET where the local population is being wiped out by the chinese communists. Of course they are going to invest in somthing that provides more places for an over crowded china to move people to.
No, I am not a stoned "free tibet hippie", i happen to come from that part of the world.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Besides, it's really obvious that they're CG. Only an idiot would try to fake images like that.
Shut up you cracka ass cracka
I can't believe any workers would require oxygen at that level. Any workers, that is, in good health.
Ordinary people (i.e., like me) go from low altitudes to the top of Mont Blanc (4807 m) without acclimatization. A worker who actually lived up at 5000 m would rapidly adjust to the altitude. Without pressurization passengers in ordinary health would have some ear discomfort and would puff a good bit when moving around. Pressurized carriages would perhaps make sense for those in poor health.
Someone is confusing this with serious altitude, like 7000-8000 m...
or maybe Cog rail, like the one to pikes peak
Never forget Egyptians built the first Great Pyramids 5000 years ago, and now they have tumbled to the point of technological weaklings. And this tells me that even tough US is the technology leader now, but things can change over time. I'll just sit back and see how China will take over the world (in terms of technological advancement). With over 1 billion smart people, this will only happen sooner or later.
Actually, I would rather see the story verified rather than falsified. But China is clearly trying to cast itself as a world superpower so they are going to have to get used to constant critisism about everything they do. It's how the big players are treated.
I've undertaken to read John Kay's book Culture and Prosperity. The book has become almost mandatory reading, and, other than finding his narrative construction grating, so far I can see why it's become such a widely read and hearlded book. I strongly recommend it to Open Source advocates who want a more lucid framework within which to understand and foster the Open Source business model.
Pertainent to this thread he lists characteristics common to the most enduring successful market economies versus the perennial failures. As follows successful modern states...
are cooler by climate
democracy
relatively high environmental standards
freedom of expression
gender equality
health
height (go figure)
honesty
egalitariansim
literacy
openness
materialism (most poor country's citizens wish for money above all else)
population growth (slower in wealthy countries)
propery rights
religion (protestant christian countries show better)
tolerance
China fails many of these tests and I don't believe their broadcasted slow but sure movement toward more open egalitarian government.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
If there is any payoff to the destruction of US industrial might by moving it to China, their greater space activity is it. They are to be congratulated for a positive application of their growth and I hope they put the US to shame for the failure of its pioneer heritage. But the railroad, for all of its engineering prowess, is just another nail in the coffin of Tibetan self-determination. There are things more important than economic development.
Seastead this.
They have 1 billion smart people? Uhm, how are we defining _smart_?
...this is all part of China's ongoing policy of populating Tibet with its own citizens to water down dissent, right?
I have to wonder why they pressurize? I mean, they are taking people from lower altitudes to higher altitudes right? This seems different from a plane, where people go up to a high altitude, come down to a lower altitude, then get off.
Some people ought to be getting off in tibet, so what happens when they open the doors? Do they get the bends or does their head explode? or just get altitude sickness all at once?
Just because they are in a different country, the old addage still applies.
Remember, 1/2 of the population has an I.Q. UNDER 100
moo.
China says the line will promote the development of impoverished Tibet.
That, or help enslave Tibet?
We also had a (roughly) 40-year head start on the Japanese in car-building, so don't get all high-and-mighty just yet.
Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
Dude, it's not the place, it's the PACE. And they are moving along pretty quickly as of late.
Anyone see the icons used for this story? "Space" and "Technology" :)
Maybe we need an "Engineering Achievement" icon or something? Maybe a construction hat with a set of spanners orthe like...IANAA (I am not an artist), but I'm sure others will be able to come out with a suitable icon for these types of stories.
They definitely are of interest to the average geek, so they deserve to be on Slashdot. I think that engineering feats like these deserve their own icon too.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
I mean, Wow, we can't even feed the people on the ISS without the Russians.
I hate to point this out, but we do not even have that capability at this moment. Do you really wish to be rude to them?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
See those pillars?
To reduce cost they gathered together 500,000 of their most poverty stricken people and walled them in them there pillars. To further reduce costs, Buddhists and yak farmers were retrained in steel smelting and put to work on making the rails for nix. Sweet, eh?.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I understand that in the early 1940's Germany had a pretty good rail system and was making remarkable progress with rocketry. Can't wait for the Slashdot retrospective on that.
Oh! Excuse me, have I triggered Godwin's Law?
[Insert pithy quote here]
The chinese are attempting to wipe out all the Tibetan people and culture. They have been trying to do so for a long time.
It would appear that their usual method of 'send in the army, kill all of the men except children and elderly, rape all of the woman and watch the next generation grow up as chinese' is taking too long.
This is far faster. With this railroad they can ship thousands of people into Tibet. They can also ship thousands of people out.
You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
And what's with the "after just 115 hours in orbit?". Sounds like a little bit of disdain there.
"just 115 hours." Well, have you done any better, Scuttlemonkey? Do tell.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
When the conductor opened the pressurized train car door for the first time in Tibet, the pasengers were heard to exclaim, "This place really sucks!" as they blew out the door.
They look fake because the little caption on top, in Chinese, says "Simulated Rendering".
The rest of the images, they must have filmed in the same sound stage that faked the Apollo moon landings.
-=- Terence
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
You are eaten by a jobs.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I've been to nearly 5900 meters while climbing Kilimanjaro, and I can tell you the air is pretty thin up there. We obviously spent a fair amount of time adjusting, but not the timeframe on Kili is rushed and you definitely feel it. On the final day we climb at a rate of several seconds per step breathing like we were running a marathon. Very exhilarating :)
The article makes it sound like oxygen/pressurized cabin is neccessary at this altitude. It isn't. We spent our final night higher than this altitude and I never even had a headache. I assume the reason why the workers received oxygen was to assist with the heavy labor they had to do.
The pressurized cabin on the train is merely a matter of comfort for most people, although that altitude is high enough to cause problems for some people susceptible to Acute Mountain Sickness or AMS. Since the purpose of the railroad is to reach those high altitudes, I'd assume most people are somewhat accustomed to it.
Here is a picture from the crater rim of Kilimanjaro's larger peak Kibo at sunrise. The smaller peak you see is Mawenzi, and the view is towards Kenya. I would love to visit Tibet some day.
isomerica.net | Foonetic IRC
A friend of mine returned from China and Tibet two years ago and mentioned the train and how many Chinese made no bones about the fact the train would be used to move many Chinese into Tibet to shift the demographics and help dillute/destroy Tibet as an independent culture.
For all comments, I substitute Tibet with Iraq, and China with US to INFINITY!! haha, I win!!
PS: also s/falun gong/terroism/g
Look, I know you're sore that China is going to beat the US by landing the first man on the Moon and all, but do try and be a gracious loser :)
The US rail system is well managed, with one exception: Amtrak. The US railroads have realized that freight does not care too much about how fast it is going, sitting still waiting for another train to pass, and not taking the shortest route point to point.
So the US rails have decided to focus on freight where they hold nearly 2/3rds of all traffic (compare to less than 1/3rd for Europe's rails). That is good management: do what you can do well, and let someone else deal with what you cannot do well. I would argue that Europe's rails are mismanaged, spending all their energy on moving people when it is much easier to move freight.
Just ask any Asian American.
Many, many Americans (white, black, latino, whatever) are racist against Asians. It's just the way they were raised.
Although not quite innocuous, I fail to get overexcited about people moving in.
When people from Northern California (where I live now) bitch about people moving in from elsewhere, I don't exactly sympathize with them. So I don't automatically sympathize here.
Should I go and bury I-80 at Donner Lake because it just makes it easier for people to come over the (formerly protective) Sierra Nevada mountains and settle here?
Or should I go and pry out the "golden spike" in Promentory Point, Utah, because rails made it easy 100 years ago?
Of course China is investing in infrastructure to move people. We do it too.
Now, that being said, I'm not in favor of ethnic cleansing or killing of any sort. But just people settling? Well, there's a lot of people on this planet now. Everyone has to make a little room for closer neighbors.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Pressurized... I thought we'd become soft. While I haven't been to 16k+, I have been to 14k+ (Pikes Peak) and at that altitude, there's no need for assistance. And the cog railway up is supposed to be a hoot. Of course, a sealed cabin has the advantage that you'll reach the other end with all your kids no matter how pissed they get at each other. At least most people consider that an advantage ;-)
the clock on the wall says 4 til 7
Is this the line that goes straight to the Dali Lama's monastary that he can no longer occupy? Or is it the one that will carry the 5 year old, kidnapped Panchen Lama (2nd in command to the Dali Lama) back to his homeland. China is communist people -- they invade other lands (at least the US isn't communist). Free Tibet!
First the average person is just fine at 16,500. Yeah, they will be a bit light headed, but nothing too bad...
I don't know about that. When I climbed Longs Peak in Colorado, about 14,000', I was sick as a dog and couldn't really think straight. And that's after living two months in Boulder (5150'). I recall recently climbing Mt. San Gorgonio in Southern California (11,500') with someone else, and we had to turn back at about 10,000' because she got seriously disoriented and out of breath, the first signs of altitude sickness.
Now, it could be I don't know any average people, but my personal experience says that 16,000' would be pretty serious without acclimatization, especially if, like me, you're no longer that young. I would certainly hesitate to try it without knowing I had oxygen standing by.
For one thing, the *first* thing that goes wrong when you have altitude sickness is your judgment. You start to make dumbass decisions, and lose track of time, and wander in your thoughts. Indeed, this mental dullness is suspected by some people for the climbing disaster on Everest in 1996 described by Jon Krakauer in his absorbing book, Into Thin Air.
Oh, come now. Surely you know that all of us Asians are good at math.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
THE ABDUCTION OF MODERNITY
Part 1: The race toward barbarism
By Henry C K Liu
The United States defines its global "war on terrorism" as a defensive effort to protect its way of life, beyond attacks from enemies with alien cultural and religious motives, to attacks from those who reject modernity itself. This definition is derived from the views of historian Bernard Lewis, a scholar of Islamic culture at Princeton University, who traces Islamic opposition to the West beyond hostility to specific interests or actions or policies or even countries, to rejection of Western civilization for what it is. To Lewis, Western civilization stands for modernity. This anti-modernity attitude, he warns, is what lends support to the ready use of terror by Islamic fundamentalists.
Samuel Huntington in his The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order argues that the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War will bring neither peace nor worldwide acceptance of liberal democracy. Huntington rejects Francis Fukuyama's prematurely optimistic "end of history" theme that the collapse of communism means Western civilization is destined to spread as people elsewhere seek the benefits of technology, wealth, and personal freedom it offers. Instead, because technology has been reserved for exploitation, wealth obscenely maldistributed, and freedom selectively denied to the powerless, narrow ideological conflict will transform into conflicts among people with different religions, values, ethnicities, and historical memories. These cultural factors define civilizations. Nations will increasingly base alliances on common civilization rather than common ideology; and wars will tend to occur along the fault lines between major civilizations.
Huntington points out that embracing materialist science, industrial production, technical education, rootless urbanization, and capitalistic trade does not mean the rest of the world will embrace the culture of the West. On the contrary, he argues that economic growth is likely to increase the aspiration for cultural sovereignty, breeding a new commitment to the values, customs, traditions, and religions of native cultures. The struggle is not capitalism against communism, but backward civilization against modern civilization.
The fault in both these views is the assumption that modernity is an exclusive characteristic of the West. On the surface, such views appear self-evident, since science and technology have been the enabling factors behind Western ascendance and dominance. But the "modern world" can be viewed as a brief aberration on the long path of human destiny, a brief period of a few centuries when narcissistic Western thinkers mistake technological development as moral progress in human civilization. Many barbaric notions, racism being the most obvious, appear under the label of modernity, rationalized by a barbaric doctrine of pseudo-science. The West takes advantage of the overwhelming power it has derived from its barbaric values to set itself up as a superior civilization. The West views its technical prowess as a predatory license for intolerance of the values and traditions of other advanced cultures.
Chinese civilization has weathered successive occupation by barbaric invaders, all of whom as rulers saw fit to adopt Chinese civilization for their own benefit and contributed to the further development of the culture they had invaded and subsequently adopted. The history of the West's interaction with the rest of the world has been culturally evangelistic, to suppress and encroach on unfamiliar cultures Westerners arbitrarily deem inferior, often based on self-satisfied ignorance. Until confronted by Western imperialism, China might have faced military conquests, but Chinese civilization had never been under attack. Barbaric invaders came to gain access to Chinese culture, not to destroy it. The West is unique in its destructive ethnocentricity. Under the domination of the West, Chinese or other non-Western intellectuals who do no
It doesn't compare with the world's highest bus.
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
Having to figure out that your "Unless there are no stops at that altitude, the train is simply passing through" is not a logical contradiction but rather a run-on sentence is a waste of everybody's time.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Parent's post is pointless. It has nothing to do with "racism".
/. than the fact that said country has been spending the last several decades oppressing the country it just built a railroad to. The country that built the railroad has been killing, starving and imprisoning a large portion of the population of that other country, and doing its best to completely annihilate the culture of that country. If the oppressive railroad-building country was the United States we would be seeing the same comments. Who they are does not matter. The fact that they have built an impressive railroad does not outweigh the evil they have done and continue to do to this very day. If the US were doing the same thing to the people of British Columbia (Canada), you would be seeing the same sort of comments overshadowing the US building a technologically advanced railroad into B.C., even though most of the posters here come from the US. Would that be "racist" as well?
It has a lot more to do with the fact that a certain country building a railroad into another country is a lot less important to most of
But we do apologize for not saying "Oooh, shiny!" and then going on about our business without bringing up the fact that there is evil afoot in that part of the world that's a hell of a lot more important than some technological advancement.
I hate to break it to you, but the only country that cared about self-determination for Tibet was India. A couple of years ago, when India gave that up in exchage for a border and trade deal, Tibet was officially done.
Until, perhaps, China splits up.
Lies about crimes
The second thing to keep in mind is that because the public transport systems within cities are so much better (New York is a bit of an exception, as the subway on Manhattan is very good), a lot of Europeans simply don't own a car even if they can afford it. Therefore, even if the train is a bit dearer in terms of variable cost, the money saved by not owning, garaging and servicing a car more than makes up for it.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
You know, you're probably right. I mean, they are communists after all. America being superior to the rest of the world in all ways, if our democratic nation's own space agency is having such a hard time safely putting man in space, how can those godless communists possibly manage to do it?
I think the Russians were lying about their space exploration feats as well--They were communists too under the Soviet government. Nothing good has ever come out of a country that is ideologically opposed to the U.S.!
Meanwhile, I know I can perfectly trust our democratic government to be completely honest, just as American mainstream media sources are always 100% accurate. I mean, c'mon it's not like CNN has army psy-ops personnel watching over their operations. And our president would never lie to us about anything.
as well as some pretty good history of China.
It sounds like you read the history of China that refers to the "Tiananmen Square Riots." You should try reading a history of Tibet too.
:wq
But then, there's still 500 million smart people, which is larger than the population of US and Japan combined :)
Pussies!
But then I realized, I agree. Their track record at honest reporting of events isn't so good.
And America's is?
This brings back the Soviet-era joke.... Someone knocks on the door of the Russian Space Station. -Who is it? -Its se Chinese. -How did you get here? -Person on person, person on person.
-Palal
Don't forget that Europe uses electricity when we use Diseasel. That also plays a part in speeds and in costs.
-Palal
Maybe U.S. manufacturing workers who have been canned because their factories were outsourced can be a source of cheap labor for building the railroad. They can settle in China and become a vibrant minority, opening up 'american' restaurants on every corner. I can see it now: General Franks' Chicken.
http://www.areadan.com
This is not flamebait, this is truth.
When the Chinese come in and start appointing reincarnations of Tibentan religious authorities, it is pretty obvious they are treating the Tibetans worse than the Inuit are being treated by the US authorities.
Seastead this.
That's quite some advice coming from a mental midget like yerself, Spanky :)
I'm wondering, since you are from the area, if you can share some of your first-hand experiences there. I'm an American living in Beijing: when I was in America, I dismissed the "free tibet" cause as liberal arts majors not having enough homework. Now that I am here, all I see are images of chinese on CCTV gushing about how interesting Tibetan culture is.. Perhaps you can provide me and some other people something I can take at face value?
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
You might want to look at how US students fare against students from countries like Japan, Singapore and China. Do consider, too, how Asian culture flourished during the middle ages when the rest of Europe was a slump. Things change, and change back.
Never mind safety, what about using the conventional train toilet (ie. A hole in the floor, or a conventional curved pipe toilet holding some water to stop direct air flow)... Has no one yet imagined? I wouldn't like to sit on that kind of toilet with the estimated pressure difference. It could be dangerous for my health. (I expect constipated me be advised to ride this train in the future)
The report is a "pre-announcement" of the railway, and has all the credibility of undiluted Chinese Propaganda. See ChinaView.CN's article http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-10/15/conte nt_3620072.htm for the unadulterated Chinese-English report of the ceremony - the government newsagency report is worth reading for the payout to the projects opponents.
The railway could be a wonderful feat of engineering - but you can't tell from these kind of reports. The railway traverses very inhospitable earthquake prone territory. How many slashdotters were aware that the day before the 8th October Pakistan Earthquake there was a large 5.0 richter scale earthquake with epicentre just 6 km from a mountain pass traversed by the railway http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/neic_dxbv.html ?
For a google earth placemark of the location see http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Numb er/139349/an//page//vc/1 ?
I couldn't find any media reports of the earthquake - and certainly no mention of any impacts or lack of impacts on the railway.
If the railway survived this unscathed, it would be a great credit to it. So why no report from the Chinese or Western media ?
The Chinese might be good at building monuments, and certainly can spin wonderful propaganda. But until they've built a hint of democracy, can you really give any credit to their claims ?
plurality should not be posited without necessity. - William of Occam
To be pedantic, the ancient Egyptians and current day Egyptians are not the same people. The nearest living relatives to the ancient Egyptions are probably the Copts, but most modern day Egytions are Arabs
Seeing and believing in China
Watch this Heartland Institute video
All witnesses agree that Mr Lu was severely beaten, and Mr Lu has confirmed that that was the case.
9 ,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,159359
1) Chinese communism has a capitalistic hue about it. Look at the billions of dollars pumped into china by american companies.
2) Chinese put honour before anything else.
3)Chinese people have each year named to animals. Like year of the goat, year of the tiger and so on.
4) There is a popular belief that chinese eat anything that moves - except perhaps other human beings.
More water gets sweated out as it evaporates more easily.
It is a great achievement, even if they sacrificed many souls to build it.
China says the line will promote the development of impoverished Tibet.
Who says Tibet wanted China to 'develop' it? Maybe the Tibetans are happier without sweatshops and slave labor factories. Maybe it is better to just be impoverished and be in touch with nature, rather than be impoverished in some polluted, run-down pre-fab neighborhood.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Which history books have you been reading? For most of recent history (prior to 1950) Tibet was in effect an independent state. It certainly wasn't considered part of China when Britain invaded Tibet in 1903! Britain then gave it to China because all they wanted was a secure trade route through it. The Tibetans then overthrew the Chinese and by 1906 had regained effective independence. China then descended in to civil war and Europe in to WWI and so everybody lost interest in Tibet until China had become communist and invaded in 1949-50.
Most of China's historical claim to Tibet is based on the fact that from the 1300s Tibet was ruled by Beijing, which is technically true - but it was not ruled by the Chinese! The Mongols (Ghengis Khan, et. al) invaded China, Tibet, Korea and most of the rest of South East Asia and ruled the whole area from Beijing. That hardly gives China a legitamate claim, and it gives them no more of a claim to Tibet than it to Korea.
Since the invasion in 1950 vast numbers of Chinese people have been moved in whilst similarly vast numbers of Tibetans have died of starvation or fled to India, Nepal and Bhutan. The Chinese government has systematically sought to destroy the Tibetan culture, religion, and identity, to the point where Tibetans are now outnumbered by Chinese in their own land. This railroad will only accellerate that process.
This story's been up almost twelve hours, and no one's said anything about "going down" and "coming up"? What's wrong with you people?
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg
Let's face it, the only direction China can go is up considering the damage done in the 1960's and 1970's by the madman Mao.
Give 100 poor people from anywhere in the 3rd world a choice: A Visa to China or the United States. My guess is 99% will take growing poverty in the USA.
an ill wind that blows no good
It beats the previous holder of the record, a railroad in Peru that passes over 4843m, by only a couple of hundred meters, taking away a record it held since it was completed in 1912, almost a hundred years ago.
The fact is, not many places have much use for a railroad that high. Both the current and the former holders of the record would pass over the highest point in Europe or the lower 48 states.
What do you mean just 115 hours? How long have you been in space, wise guy?
Have you ever wondered How to Take Over
This might be a good news to Beijin; yet obsolutely a bad one to Tibet, Tibet's independence, human culture/civilization, human rights, and human environmental protection.
China is one country. Tibet is a province of that country. It has been a part of China since long before your country has existed. How do you like it if I talk of Evil because of Americans building highway system to Florida. It was a country too, until it was betrayed and slaughtered by YOUR president Andrew Jackson.
And if you are English, then you can just bloody yourself. You imperialits raped China and pushed drugs such as opium on us and cut off pieces of our country until we were too weak to stop the bastard Japanese murders from coming too. Canadians are arrogant too, but just have no power.
Time's different now. Now China is strong. Your lies don't Change any of it. China is strong and western hegemons and imperialists cannot push us again. Ever. Make your own spaceship and stop your own uneducated barbaric lazy people from killing each other instead of trying to say Chinese accomplishments aren't good. China is rising.
I've done some high altitude work as well in the Rockies. Not quite 14,000', but still very noticable.
The difference is, you're CLIMBING. Exerting yourself. Using up a hell of a lot more oxygen than normal. Altitude hits you very hard when you're doing any sort of exercise. Sitting in a train and experiencing low air pressure is much like being on an airplane - you don't even notice it, because you're barely moving.
I've never taken a barometric altimeter on a commercialized flight, but I do know this: while they are pressurized, they're nowhere close to sea level air pressure (anyone know what the equivalent altitude would be, btw?). I've seen people get dizzy after one too many trips to the bathroom, but generally no one notices as you're sitting down and hardly moving at all.
People who live close to sea level can get dizzy and out of breath simply walking at 5,000'. Let them sit down for a while, and they're fine. I've done 10-11,000' many times with people who are otherwise unused to it, and while they may stuggle a lot going up, they're almost always fine once they reach the top and have a chance to relax.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
f) In America cars can go anywhere, while public transportation is limited especially compared to Europe.
Therefore most people already have cars and it is usually more convienient to use them for medium length trips (don't have to plan around train schedule, have something to get around town when they get to their destination).
g) America is more spread-out that europe.
Therefore it is harder to support frequent routes to where people need to go. This creates a harsher trade off between convinience and price.
h) Americans have less vacation time than europe.
Therefore, Americans put a larger value on fast tranportation for long trips, and thus choose planes.
All of these decrease train usage which drives up the overhead price for the remaining customers. I like Amtrack, but it really doesn't have much place in the transportation system here in the US. Until the rest of the system changes, continental rail will be a fundamentally bad solution, because the economies of scale just aren't there.
Free Tibet!
Sweet! I'll take two!
It seems to me that Tibet (the people and the land) is as much a part of China as the Inuit areas of Alaska are a part of the USA
Well then, the PRC better hurry up and hand over Tibet to Taiwan.
The Republic of China (Taiwan) is technically still the original government of China before the Communists came along.
Many of the outer regions (you need to play Hearts of Iron 2 and you can see why it was banned by PRC) and you'll realize that most of China was divided by several groups all vying for power. Communist China assimalated all of them and then kicked the RoC forces out. The only reason China doesn't claim Mongolia was because Stalin made Mao drop the claims. We don't see China clammering for Mongolia to be back now do we?
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
I grew up in Leadville, Colorado. Their airport is at 9950 feet elevation. I would've had to dig quite a hole to join the Mile High Club.
(For some reason, oh maybe it was the sucky performance of airplanes at that altitude, I've never used my pilot certificate in Leadville.)
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
I think height is a function of nutrition to some extent. So might be considered more of an effect than a cause.
Yes, I lived. I wasn't even seriously ill. But, on the other hand, I was only on the top for 30 minutes or so, and the weather was fine, and I was in my mid-20s.
If, on the other hand, a Chinese train broke down at 16,000', the weather might well be bad, the people on board might be in their 50s or 60s, and rescue might not come for three or four days -- since, of course, they put the train in because getting up there is difficult.
I certainly agree most people could probably go to 16,000' air pressure for a short time without serious ill effect, and many people could go longer. But I also think it's not unlikely that quite a number of normal not-fit non-acclimatized people, middle-aged or older, would if left at 16,000' feet at -15 C for two or three days, without much water and food, be quite seriously affected. That's all I'm saying.
Yes, I walked up Longs. For some reason, I'm not comfortable with technical climbing and I've never really done any, although I've tried it out a little in parks. There's just some "unnaturalness" to it that I feel, so that even when I can do it, it isn't fun. It's just work. Don't flame me -- I'm not saying people who do it are nuts -- I think it's just a matter of taste, and it so happens that technical climbing doesn't suit mine. I realize that means I'm never going up Denali or Everest, but that's OK, I'm happy enough noodling around on lower peaks, and I'm a bit old for that kind of stuff anyway.
China's policy over the last few years has been one of population dilution. By trucking in native Chinese, they were diluting native Tibetan population. With this new railroad that process will accelerate dramatically. I spent a month in Lhasa last year and spoke with some of the Tibetans (technically you are supposed to have a Chinese guide present at all times, but since there were no other tourists there .. none .. the guide just took off to a bar), and they were very depressed about the finish of the railroad. Their culture is being coopted by China and western influence.
So very sad.
-coherentlight
This railway will ensure that China's "final solution" for the Tibet issue will be successful. Through population transfer of Han Chinese migrants into the region (assisted by Government incentives), the Tibetan population will become increasingly marginal and their collective voice a minority. According to Tibetans, there are 3 Chinese migrants for every native Tibetan currently in Tibet (especially Lhasa and bordering areas). According to the Chinese Government, the Han Chinese population is only 5%. I have friends who are currently travelling in Tibet and they assure me that the CPC's figure is quite off.
There no conflict of common interests between Tibetan and the general Chinese. China has been messed up by communism for nearly 50 years. Tibetan did not suffer more than the general Chinese did in other areas.
In fact, nowadays, Tibetan, regarded as a minority of Chinese in China, have the right to have the second child, on which Han Chinese are very jealous.
They've done a fine job too: Bhopal, US tobacco industry, Pinkertons, South Africa, Love Canal...
It's most ironic that you were researching for a human rights project.
Do read some Upton Sinclair and Dickens. Without other moderating
cultural influences, capitalism have run rough shod over human rights for centuries. The benefit of capitalism is economical, not the promotion of a more humane society.
Historically, corporate interests attempt to use governmental influences to gain benefits for themselves as often as they want to be left alone. Look at trade tariffs, agricultural subsidies, the East India Company (Is that a company or an arm of the government?) !
There has never been pure lassiz faire capitalism and there probably never will be. If it comes to be, it's not obvious that you would want to live there.
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You need to read your history a bit more carefully. The last emperors of China were Manchurians who have largely assimilated within the Han culture. They stationed permanent imperial officlas in Lhasa. They also got involved in selection of reincarnations when there had been competing claims.
When Tibet had de facto independence was from roughly 1911-1049 although they achived no international recognition. This is not insignificant, but certainly not overwhelming.
Britain were not interested in trading as much as their 'Great Game' of geopolitics against Russia.
I disapprove of the harsh methods the PRC government has deployed to suppress dissent and religions. However, there was never any systematic pogram to attack Tibetans as in Croatia. I find the term 'cultural genocide' more polemical than meaningful.
You weaken your arguments when you based them on inaccuracies or spins.
Another guy brainwashed by the western media. In fact Tibet has been a part of China for A THOUSAND YEARS.
Sure, Tibet is an entire country but the real question is:
Seastead this.
How is poverty defined in China, vs. the US? As Bill Maher said, "America is the only country with poor fat people". What we call "poverty" would be considered pretty good living in much of the world.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
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Apart from minor quibbles like these, I agree that China has really been a poster-child for what we might call 'compassionate imperialism.'
You might have a different perception of their policies if you had spoken to as many former political prisoners who were raped by prison guards using electric cattle prods as I have. And no, these things are not only from the distant past. They are still occurring now, and if you go to Dharamsala, India, you can meet the newcomers who are arriving from Tibet, and hang out at the support organizations for former political prisoners (e.g., Gu Chu Sum) and see that these brutalities are not a thing of the past.