Slashdot Mirror
No More Lunar Land for Sale
dptalia writes "According to China Daily, Beijing authorities have shut down sales of lunar property. Apparently there's a "Lunar embassy" in China and they've sold 34 people deeds to land on the moon. Not too surprisingly, the government has declared this illegal. The Bejing office claims to be a satellite of the U.S. Lunar Embassy, run by Dennis Hope. Hope claims that while it is illegal for countries to stake a claim on the moon, it is legal for individuals and corporations to."
He's clearly a lunatic.
The guy is a moron.
and not a drop to drink.
Morons deserve what they get... buying real estate without due dilligence? You're going to get screwed on Earth, too.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
Well, at least we can be satisfied in knowing that the Moon is still open to conquest by anyone else. I'm still holding out for Sony to claim it and post advertisements on it for their products.
Shots: A Populist Parable
Not only do they sell Lunar property, but I just got this fantastic deal on this bridge in Brooklyn!!! Highly Recommend this seller!
Those 6 acres on the moon i just bought from them - cannot be developed on?
"The Bejing office claims to be a satellite of the U.S. Lunar Embassy, run by Dennis Hope. "
They can even take Hope away from people.
But seriously, this scam is as old as the 1960s, if not older. Is it my duty as a Slashdot reader to point out that a 30 year old scam copied recently, is not news? No, it's not, so forget I said that, because it is news since people are still falling for it.
By the way, I've got a star to sell you. A nice one, in the Orion Belt.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
"The Man Sold the Moon"
Robert Heinlein, 1950 (Street & Smith 1939)
+1 fashionably cynical
Hope claims that while it is illegal for countries to stake a claim on the moon, it is legal for individuals and corporations to.
Legal according to whom? I suppose if you have a problem you could take it up with the Lunar Police. Perhaps they'll throw Hope into the Lunar Jail, and he can speak to a Lunar Lawyer about clarifications on Lunar Law.
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
Just like the radio-hyped "International Star Registry" I don't think this is a scam really. Maybe they're just publishing an annual book of Moon "owners"?
First, I would think these deeds are presented more as a gift gag to someone than an honest investment opportunity. The star registry is lame to us geeks, but laypeople love it.
Secondly, with government so charged to "protect" consumers from scams, you'd think scams would go away. They won't. The only way that scams will be unprofitable is when government stops "protecting" citizens and lets people learn to be aware of what they're buying.
Lastly, even if this is a scam, the potential is there for the buyer to actually own the land. I once bought a tiny parcel of land from a company with a clear title. Years later, the title came into question, yet the new other owner couldn't find any previous owner anywhere. The company I bought from went bankrupt years before, and the courts awarded me the land with maybe $500 in legal fees.
Proof of purchase helps when no title exists to the land before it. In anarchocapitalist-speak, though, you don't own land until you've mixed your labor with it and no one before you has. Seeing as the moon won't be productive for another 50+ years, that'll be hard to do, but I'm thinking we need to find options for how we'll divvy it up for future generations.
to do so.
My wife is an english major. She'll dig that I just corrected someone's english.
Ahhh! You ended a sentence with a preposition!
But what about my vacation home?! I was planning to develope that land!
Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
Cold war is over people, we can move one now.
I'm looking for a couple of acres to build my Mysterious Secret Moon Base - can I have a look at what's available?" And we thought people were stupid to fall for a Nigerian scam... This one really takes the cake. Or should that be the cheese?
Confucious say, Possession is 9/10th of the law.
Lisa: Here's a better idea. You give me YOUR address, and I'll write to _you_.
Man: [scratching himself] Uh, okay, uh--just send it to "Jesus...uh, care of the Pentagon."
Marge: I'm so glad we took the subway...
That's so charming!
That Dennis Hope is in the right, but there are land barrons far larger than he that will simply forbid some forward-thinking guy sole possession of the next(?) land rush. Drag him into court. Make up new legislation. You name it.
Yes, I know lunar real estate sounds crazy, but that's what capitalism is about. Assigning ownership by an individual of definable chunks of land and establishing a value for that ownership.
No Starbucks or Indian casinos on the moon, but eventually something.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Soooo, if you you live on the moon are you a Mooner or a Mooni?
Sorry - I know, a bad joke.
This message was brought to you by "Lack of Sleep."
... that Bush is planning to move in and liberate the moon - anybody know if this is true?
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Good luck getting the /. crowd to pay much attention to spelling and grammar. But maybe this will help.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
The catholic church has prior claim...
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
In Soviet China, Moon property buys you.
i got ball this is my adress 108 20 37 av corona come n do it iam give u the sidekick so I can hit you wit it
over 2 million people from 180 different countries have purchased over 400 million acres of celestial real estate-- www.lunarrealty.com.au
- What is the surface area of the moon, in acres?
- What GIS / LIS / DBMS are they using to track all this land?
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
I already have the parts assembled for my "Whalers on the Moon" attraction...
If you get off your ass, spend billions of dollars of your own money and go land on the Moon you should have some legal right to fence off a bit of land and claim it as your own. Once you've lived on the property for some set period of time you should be free to do a geological survey and apply for mining rights. If it wasn't for homesteading laws like this the west of the United States wouldn't have been settled (and all them native americans wouldn't have been killed, but that's hardly relevant to this discussion).
How we know is more important than what we know.
http://www.starregistry.com/ ?
This message was brought to you by "Lack of Sleep."
I can sell land on Uranus?
Beware the fury of a patient man
- John Dryden
Why would you bother, everyone knows ET runs the show on the moon.
The "Outer Space Treaty" (Though the UN experts disagree slightly), illegal according to the "Moon Treaty", which wasn't much supported and probably would not be considered in case anyone challenged Hope on it. I'd assume these treaties are going to get revoked once anyone starts having serious interest in extraterrestrial property, but until then his claims are about the best you'll get, aside from the UNs opinion, which many here don't seem to care much about :-)
The guy is right that countries are not allowed, but that it does not say explicitly that citizens are not allowed either; thus, he does have the ability to be a registering authority. The catch, of course, is that in order to be a registering authority one must have the ability to back up property disputes with force. It is the nature of people to take what they can get unless there is reasonable assurance that authority will intervene with physical force (i.e. jail, removal of property, fines, etc). In general, only governmental authority has such strength. The truth of the matter is that the moon will go up for sale at some point.
Property rights are not some abnormal thing, but a mechanism for ensuring peace between people so we all recognize who has control (to some degree) of the area so they can be left alone. When humanity ventures out to the moon, they will homestead/commercialize the territory in accordance with ensuring the peace. If property rights are not recognized, it will mean that anyone is allowed to destroy anyone else's structures for their purposes; therefore, the real question is: Do you honestly think anyone is going to pay attention to Hope's records at this point? I would venture to say that most people would say, "No."
Bel, the mostly sane.. "Of course I can't see anything! I'm standing on the shoulders of idiots." -- Me
In the USA (ideal schoolboy optimism here), the government's powers are enumerated and the people retain the rest as their rights. That's "blacklist law" for you digit-heads: if it's on this list, you can't do it.
In many other regimes, the individual's rights are enumerated (or never even written), and the government retains the rest as their powers. That's "whitelist law" for analogy: if it's on this list, you can do it. Guess where the China government weighs in?
[
Calgary Full Moon Hash House Harriers invites everyone to our 1000's hash to be held on our property in our soon to be built FULL MOON BASE.
/.
Like all full moon hashers - we run every full moon - come moonmud, moondust or moonshine.
So how any other Full Moon Hashes have their moonbases in planning?
There have to be lots of hashers in
I'm glad the authorities shut these jackasses down. These "lunar/martian land for sale" businesses increase the giggle-factor against any legitimate property claims in space. Sort of like AC Clarke's statement about space elevators being built 25 years after everyone stops laughing, the same can be said for extraterrestrial land ownership. People issuing fake/joke certificates of ownership is bad PR in the long run.
Space property rights, extended ownership and salvage rules are going to be hot areas of law over the next 50+ years. We've seen some action with new spectrum allocation, but nothing to grant land-claims, yet. There was a guy trying to charge rent for NEAR landing on asteroid Eros, but he got laughed out of court. Again with the giggle-factor.
Real challenges to establish property claims in the near future: SpaceDev has said they will emplace transponders and legally claim any asteroids they explore. Someone will figure out how to recycle rocket stages in orbit (salvage). A company flying a private lander to the moon or Mars will claim the uranium/nitrates/ice/whatever that they find at their landing site. Two probes orbitting Ceres will dismantle each other while fighting over the iceball. Those are legitimate future cases for space property issues to be resolved. Lunar acreage in 2005 is not such an issue.
Josh
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
You cannot be Sirius.
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
Haha, if you go into the store they have a "Lunar Tax" of $1.51 on everything.
Those Lunarians are already imposing export taxes!
To me this statement just smacks of nutty dreams of Libertopia. On the other hand, if they can get there, living on the moon might finally place fanatic Libertarians fully outside of the claw of those hated goverments.
Start Running Better Polls
If none of the moon can be claimed by any country, on what basis can one defend a personal or corporate claim? Who's going to defend you when your claim is disputed? It is like a boat in international waters. You can "claim" a portion of internation waters if you want, but nobody is going to hornor it.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
That's because a corporation or person can only own land in the context of government ownership -- that's why The Dutchy of Freeland exists (whatever legal name they give it) -- If they existed as a corporation sans-government, then England would have had the recognized right (under the doctrine of terra-nullis) to override the claim to the platform and re-assert sovereignty.
This would also apply to the Lunar Embasy and it's claims. On the other hand, if the Lunar Embasy claims to to the embasy for a government that 'owns' the moon, then it falls (and fails) under the treaty.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Buying the moon is sooooo 1950's. Someone should try selling land in Florida instead or the London Bridge... er... wait a sec... Anybody interested in buying ad space on Haley's Comet?
This has worked fine for centuries, and I don't see any reason to change it now. But the key point is, you have to physically be there to drive the stakes into the ground. If you're not going to plunk your ass down on the moon and drive some stakes into the ground, you have no valid claim to the ground as far as I'm concerned, because you're obviously not capable of stewardship.
than the mining rights, or someone would be able to tunnel in uranus
for their future prison labor factories.
Dear ,
CONSIDER MY CONDITION
I presume this letter will come to you as a suprise,but as things unfold,we will know each other better and how I got your contact.I will start by introducing myself to you, I am Chief Jackson Gaius Obaseki,the Group Managing Director and Chief Executive of Nigeria National Lunar Estate Corporation (NNLEC) I am very sure that you will be of a good assistance after carefully reading my letter....
I can get you a better deal and sell you property rights to Uranus.
Forget Pluto though. That's Disney's territory.
This space unintentionally left blank.
Creating more morons per GDP than any other nation! Not teaching any civics lessons helps up the production!
The Principality was founded on unclaimed "land" (in the loosest sense of the term). This was legal under international law of the time (it no longer is so under the Treaty of the Sea, adopted by the UN). As nutty as the concept might seem, the claim would appear to be valid http://www.sealandgov.com/
OK, I got bored...surface area of the moon:
37.8 million square km
or 9,340,583,419.46 acres
subtract 400,000,000 acres which are pwned and you are left with...shitloads of infertile land, but what a view! B)
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
Please go stand by the stairs so you can be protected
How can he sell lunar plots? Does he have some sort of claim to the moon that allows him to legally distribute these? Somehow this just doesn't seem to line up to me. Couldn't I just as easily say "hey, see that bit of moon right there? That's mine." This is completely ridiculously.
'nuf said
For plans on how to go about buying and selling the moon, read The Man Who Sold the Moon. I think Robert A. Heinlein should be like a quote source in Congress and schools or something.
It would be news if the Chinese goverment declared something to be legal.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
Anyone willing to take the risk and colonize the moon with some early moon-bases gets a plot of land. In turn, they get supplies from their government, and their government gets a share of resources which they will mine from the moon...
Back when I was in grad school in Berkeley in 1978-1979, I bought an acre of land on the moon. Unlike this current guy, who claims to have legitimately laid claim to the whole moon and to be selling everybody a unique piece of land, the guy I bought it from showed up on campus wearing a silver space suit and doing a great schtick, making it clear that he's selling everybody the *same* acre of land, and that he's trading you a nice big fancy green piece of paper with engraving and shiny bits on it and pictures of the moon (the deed) in return for a little boring green piece of paper with a picture of a dead politician on it. He'd been arrested a number of times, because some towns don't like guys in space suits selling acres of land on the moon, but they couldn't legitimately charge him with fraud because he was quite upfront about how he's selling everybody the same acre of land, and he had lots of good pictures of the police trying to keep a straight face while busting him. And he finished with an anti-drug message, about how you shouldn't go taking large quantities of LSD or *you* might end up on the streetcorner in a silver spacesuit selling people land on the moon.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Seriously, does any amount of wrangling about the legality of claims make any more difference on the moon than on Earth? Anyone who thinks that their property rights are sacrosanct past the point where they can be enforced is fooling themself.
To quote "The Lion in Winter":
Henry: The Vexin's mine.
Phillip: On what authority?
Henry: It's got my troops all over it, and that makes it mine.
I'm not sure what case you are making. I went to http://usny.nysed.gov/topics/#D and downloaded the diploma requirements PDF and it turns out to be a pamphlet in which it turns out there is a "local diploma" that can be obtained in New York. Furthermore the pamphlet does not contain the word "civics".
Can you point out where in the Regents Exams civics is covered?
u shouldn't be able to claim something if you have never been there.
and he's selling property on Venus too.. WTH.. ppl can't survive on Venus..
I think I bought the last plot! This will be worth a fortune!
It's the source of many lawsuits, and oftentimes claimjumping.
"Staking Your Claim to Alaska's Mineral Wealth"
Please send cash here http://www.riaa.com/default.asp
Once we are through lining our pockets we will use the remaining funds to further develop new planets and moons. Please don't steal extra-terrestrial property without paying our astronauts as it helps support terrorists and baby snatchers.
All you need is a boat, lots of rocks and dirt, and voila "instant country"
strap a shotgun onto the boat, and have yourself a navy too.
You can then declare war on the US.. get invaded, and have your country rebuilt for free !
dbcad7
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
Hi. I'm looking for someone to enforce my deed for lunar land. My country won't do it because it has no jurisdiction. I am trying to assemble my own army, but I have no money left since I spent most of it acquiring the entire crater out beyond the 10 mile mark of the perimeter. Please help, as my only other recourse is a contact I have in Nigeria. Thanx.
I want the bit that says "CHA" on it.
They must have read this post from the other day: http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=167383 &cid=13954681
KeepTrackOfIt.com - Find the lowest gas prices in your area graphically
That's why they're pissed.
Sweet, now we can liberate the dead bacteria we tracked up there on expeditions!
There is many scams like this. International Star Registry is another scam that claims to name a star for you. Unforunately, only the International Astronomical Union names planetary bodies.
\
If you really want your scam to work, you need some fancy logos from some company certifying you or something, maybe learn some basic HTML, :). He was asking too much anyway...
Obligatory blog plug: http://www.caseybanner.ca/
After the "One giant leap for mankind" comment, I distinctly heard Neil Armstrong say, "Dibs!". So, back off China.
will come from the barrel of a gun. It doesn't matter what laws are passed right now, whoever gets up there first and can protect their property will rule the land. Once a presence is established you become the defacto owner, and somebody has to force you off.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
First, someone has to find oil on the moon. Until that happens, the moon is safe against US agression. However, since the moon is rotating very, very, slowly on its axis, its bearings are clearly in bad shape, so there is probably little, if any oil...
Oh well, what the hell...
Lemme get this straight, for $1000 I can get into the Century Club, and get a complimentary trip to Las Vegas for two people? I live in Denmark half way around the world, and there is no way I could get a round trip for two to Las Vegas for $1000. Is this some kind of scam, how could I be certain I got what was promised?
they must be looney to believe this guy.
Yeah yeah. Go ahead and mod this redundant.
Seriously though, what would they do if someone did try to settle on the moon? The moon does not in fact belong to any country to the best of my knowledge. With private industry getting more and more interested in developing space capable craft, what's to keep someone from going to the moon and trying to set up a base/colony on their own. Would the U.S., ect try to go to the moon and forcefully remove them? What right would they have to do that?
That was the part that I was hoping to sneak in, 'cause that side is for "science."
on the dark side
In the United States it's becoming more and more common for professionals to think that they should make decisions for you instead of helping you to make an informed decision.
To make matters worse, the state of education in the United States results in a general populace that accepts that too.
On top of that, what may be an extension of the customers of the TV channels is the advertisers, Is that health professionals see their customer as the State, the HMO or the Health Insurance company, and not the patient, and apply the concept that what the customer wants is what's best for the patient. I wouldn't be surprised if that's true in other areas of insurance as well.
I am selling a huge amount of land for anyone to buy, build families on and be prosperous. It is a huge island across the Atlantic. Lets call it America.
I'll take $50,000 per square km of land there. Heck there are even millions of houses already built that can go between $50,000 to 5000,000. Our teams of lawyers will issue the deed and all necessary paperwork.
Please direct the funds to Account # 5928375, bank transit # 4930283, Adis Ababa, Nigeria.
Get some before its all taken!!!
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I hereby claim ownership of the sun.
I am offering lighting and heating services for the low low price of $.01 per day.
Since you already appear to be using my services - Pay up!
Oh wait, this is Slashdot, you guys get the discount rate, since you never go outdoors.
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
If you land on my lunar Boardwalk . Collect $400.00 Dollars and do not pass go !!!
Does this mean my deed is no good? I was planning to put a house up soon. Should have a hell of a view.
Of course none of the Outer Space Treaty actually matters since the truth is that land, as always, will belong to he (or she) who can claim it and defend it afterwards! We don't need no stinking treaty.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Anality (to the pedants out there in Slashdotland, obsessive-compulsive personality) is a very important quality to possess. Consider that the New York Times has included articles about Supreme Court candidates Roberts and Alito, mentioning their conservatism and characteristic anality.
On the other hand, you have these rebel but admittedly cunning linguists who vouch that language is as we use it. In their fog of grammatical relativism, a split infinitive is just as good as an unsplit one (and, presumably, split undies are equals to the uncleft variety); slang is how the vocabulary of a language evolves; and they say worse while calling it all science! No, thanks. I'll side with the prescriptivist grammarians like my good friend BTWR and scan all my writing for misplaced commas and make sure I am using my words with etymologically correct connotations. Plus, renowned cunning linguist Noam Chomsky is a damned hippi.
In short, back off from His Royal Anus!
On vit, on code et puis on meurt.
TANSTAAFL.... not even under Communism....
This man http://www.geocities.com/cjstender/McArdle.htm/ has been selling plots of the moon for at about thirty years. I still have a certificate for the plot that I bought in the early eighties (just $1.00).
For God sakes, people! Everyone knows that the moon is made of cheese and has been staked out and owned by the first to actually harvest some of that cheese: An English inventor named Wallace.
Why can't people just leave Wallace in peace? I can just see Gromit knitting a nice tablecloth for the table on the moon.
Everybody knows that the Toast King owns the entire moon
(links are to flash animations, for anyone who feels they should be warned of that kind of thing)
Curiosity was framed. Ignorance killed the cat.
FINALLY SOMEONE THAT UNDERSTANDS THE DIFFERENCE!
If I could mod you up, it would've been done by now.
Someone that understands difference in grammatical structure concerning different languages! My Magister Romano taught his regular Latin class about this, but not his A.P. Latin classes. Gotta love it.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
You're assuming that the USA will defend every US citizen that goes to the moon against other countries that do not have this "Homestead Act" which is a USA product. Since when has our government had that much to spend to save ONE person on the moon that put themselves there in the first place? Don't we have some idealistic war to fight first?
I'm sorry, I don't want that to seem like a troll post, as that is not it's intention. However, with current and potential future administrations for our country, can you be assured that "our" government will help us absolutely in our time of need?
I'll be flexible, Let's say that they do. So, (given our current record,) for one person they spend over 50 billion dollars on just deciding what to do, then they spend another 50 billion just to launch a small, un-trained squad of "Space Marines" to the moon faster than we went into Iraq, just to defend one US citizen's stake on the moon. And that's assuming the US is desperate or territorial enough to wish to keep any potential stake on the moon.
But in all honesty, do you think that's going to happen when oil on this planet seems to be more of the world issue currently? If they discover oil on the moon, you know there's going to be a mad dash for it, otherwise, why bother?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
...then I am glad I purchased some land while I was on time!
What a lucky bastard I am... 8-D
diegoT
Next thing you know, we're going to have the Tick, Superman, and various other companies that own these characters suing for property rights, thanks to our patent office! "We own this property since we thought of these ideas first, and now that they're being done, it's infringing on our IP!!!! Repent and Release, or DIE!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"
I'm joking, but I'd love to see what DC Comics would come out with once their space-aged space-heads got into outer-space and landed on the moon. What kind of comics could the lack of gravity on your brain and blood vessels produce? Are you tripping balls or are you really jumping in low gravity coming up with some new bad-ass comic character moves for us to digitally reperoduce in movies on Earth?
I could almost literally imagine outer-space as being the new creative force in movies or TV shows, and of course scientific advancements, can you?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
...and thusly I shall purchase property on Mars:
The Various Bodies of Galactic Government
On the basis of my entire arsenal which may range from knives forged in cold space to ion cannons bigger than your entire neighborhood block. The question you're thinking of is "How big of a gun do I need to defend my property rights?"
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
when staking a claim meant actually marking the area with stakes. How can you claim property on the moon if you can't get there?
Can I call dibs on europa?
They can have their paper. We'll see who gets what land when I get up there first and greet them upon their arrival with a shotgun.
Should a shotgun fail in an area with almost no atmosphere, sharp, pointy sticks will be held in reserve.
Sheesh... the way people are complaining about this Lunar Embassy you'd think they were bilking people out of thousands of dollars. A "normal" lunar deed on the site is $20, plus $10 shipping and handling. And the site is filled with various other mugs, t-shirts, and other random silly stuff for lunar owners to collect. We're talking about $30. Laugh a little, the site certainly looks like it's part tongue-in-cheek to me.
I'm putting the contents of the rest of the universe up for grabs. It may take me a while to make all the entries on ebay.
Selling moon property to someone would imply that you own the rights to sell it.
No joke:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva
http://www.minervanet.org/
Who will really own the rights to a given piece of land? Someone who just points up there and says a given parcel is theirs? Or someone who actually goes up there, builds on the property, surveys it and everything?
Ummm, I think you meant Cobra Commander.
CHAIRFACE IS BALLMER!
So, which government declared this illegal?
Everybody knows the moon belongs to google
//WR
No leg to stand on except hand waving at being a private citizen instead of being a governement/country. Well though luck, since the US signed that pesky "moon" treaty it also apply to its citizen (something in the US constitution about treaty being recognized as law) be them "private" citizen or representative of their governement.
This hand waving remind me of the infamous tax-protester, misunderstanding on law (in our case treaty & international law).
Furthermore even If the treaty was NOT a problem, then imagine that if in china , germany, russia or even UK , somebody sell the same plot. Well, who own it ? Who declare the sale legal ? Why something sold by Hopes to somebody would be "more" recognized than something sold by Mr X in Russia to me, if I set foot first ? And if the plot on the moon is only recognized to those setting foot first there, then why not use the good ol' first-to-occupy=first to possess ?
Even worst as far as I know you can only sale property you already own. May I see when Hopes got sold that plot ? And whom sold it to him ? On what authority
This sale of Moon plot can only be recognized anyway you see it as either a scam, or a joke. Nothing serious. It would be laughed out of *ANY* court , even in the lawsuit-friendly US.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Apply for a title? From whom? You're making the assumption that there's an existing government in place on the moon from which you apply for title to land.
That's crap. If you have the resources to get your butt onto the moon and establish a permanent presence, you should just declare yourself to be a sovereign state and tell the rest of the world to "f*ck off."
Be prepared to defend your new turf, however. Nothing gets a country's attention as much as someone attempting to declare sovereignty in a very visible place. You'll probably be getting a visit from the Space Marines, the Ukrainian Space Police, and the Chinese Taikonaut Re-Education Squad.
"CHA" I, for one, welcome our new Ottoman Overlords.
"I'm a Laver, not a Phyto[plankton]"
There is also the minor issue of jurisdiction. Who says anybody on Earth has any claim to the Moon? For all he knows, there's some Galactic government out there, the Earth is somebody's backyard and the Moon is the Zen garden they built to think deep thoughts in.
While on this witter, has anybody considered the state of intellectual property law if it turns out there is a Galactic government, that it has IP which has now ratcheted up to several billion years of extension, and that it extends to business methods and software patents? When they find us, they'll sue every corporation and individual on the entire planet. And win...
The serious point I'm trying to make is that trying to extend your jurisdiction too far just exposes you to the person who has an even bigger reach. The tacit assumption of successive superpower governments from Persia and Rome through China to the US is that there is nobody else out there. Which is not proven to say the least.
Pining for the fjords
Good thing I bought the sea of tranquility from them. I havent heard back from NASA yet about the rent I'm charging them for the junk they left lying around on my property.
I gots me sevendy acres. Heh, can't wait to kick them Mooninites off ther land, made love to ther women, and put them in bogus reservations. Get in the buick, we're goin' to the moon!
Obviously you have no legal right to an acre of moon, but it's more a romantic gesture/fantasy for a loved one. How many romantic novels have the heros saying "I'l give you the moon and stars?" to their beloveds. Well, now you can do it to, but include an acre of Mars, Venus and the odd star too. So all those moaning "It's a scam" maybe you should get out more, meet a girl, buy her a romantic gift and maybe, just maybe, you won't be living with your parents at 30!
People like olds.
Namely slice and dice the moon up between all the people (and their descendants of course) who have risked their life to go into space or to the moon. Do it for the next hundred years too, or the next 10,000 people to go to the moon (whichever is first). Maybe in a few hundred years the technology will exist for the descendants of these people (who will own around 1 square kilometer of the moon by that time, as it is divided up in wills, etc) to build something on it.
It is kinda like how land was given to lords and barons and all that in the middle ages by the king.
Mostly it'd be a gesture of thanks and whatnot, worthless for now, but legal.
At some point in the next 200 years the issue of land ownership on the moon will become an issue, and I think the above is a reasonable way to solve it. Hopefully they won't put the moomins in lunar reservations!
8 years ago in highschool my highschool science teacher brought in his deed to show off to the class, and the entire class was told that they could live there when he moves to the moon.
Well put in the inimitable Perry Bible Fellowship:r Wizard.jpg
http://www.pbfcomics.com/temporary/PBF020ADGramma
For more: http://www.pbfcomics.com/temporary/archive.html
That just means the rich get first dibs.
Not what the world needs - opening up a resource to private ownership that only the already wealthy are eligible to own.
I claim the Sun, of which I now require every person in the world to pay me anual royalties for the use of it's light, and heat.
In the event that my Sun goes supernova the owner claims no responsability for losses incurred. WARNING Sun exposure is known to cause skin cancer. The Sun's owner is not responsable for sunburns due to overexposure. Use in moderation. Contents of the Sun are hot, in any event do not try to visit the sun, do not stare at directly at the sun in the event of a solar eclipse. The suns owner is not liable for Lunar Eclipses and losses incurred.
Screw it, anyone wanna buy the sun?
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
A key point of being able to claim land is needing to go to that land to claim it. You can't just point at a map and claim that you own it because no one else has it. Now, the big question is how long will it take before someone lands on the moon and THEN claims land there. Even then, if you don't do anything with said land, there is still an issue of who's really in charge since there is no real governing body in charge. By the same token, land on the moon has no practical value except perhaps as a tourist destination or as a way-station between the Earth and other space destinations outside of Earth orbit.
Mars, since there is a thin atmosphere and gravity might have other uses once a system is in place to generate it's own air and food. I don't see a self sustaining system being set up on the moon for a number of reasons for a long time to come yet.
you have to stick stakes in the ground you're claiming don't you?
I understood thats where the phrase comes from...
I guess that means NASA already owns the moon on the basis that they stuck a flag in it first.
The Outer Space Treaty had a loophole and he exploited it. If that treaty is law, and his claim is valid, then he legally owns the moon. To my knowledge, no one has challenged the treaty, and no one has challenged his claim, so until someone does, he owns it.
Now, I don't think for one second that I could stop someone from mining or settling on my acre of the moon, but until someone actually takes Mr. Hope to task on this, what he's doing is perfectly legitimate.
There are two points to consider. First, since the Moon Land Registry has been selling property on the moon for as long as they have, they've established a precedent that, in combination with the questionable validity of their claim, will at least give them a case. If someone were to challenge this claim with nothing more than the 'this can't be real because it doesn't fit my paradigm' reasoning that seems to argument most Slashdotters are using, they're going to lose and Hope's claim will stand. Anyone who wants to dispute it is going to have to use actual law, not slanderous nonsense.
The second point to consider is why the Chinese government would have bothered to put a stop to this in China if they didn't see it as a potential obstacle in their ambitious plans for the moon. Plenty of companies sell gag gifts that make themselves out to be legit, but this is the one that gets singled out.
I hereby lay claim to the universe,
except for the earth and the moon.
So there..
This is perfect, since my "Evil" corporation has been searching for a moon to place our "laser" on, deeming it the "death star" as explained in the "Alan Parsons Project"
*Inignot giving the finger to Dennis Hope*
Inignot: "I hope he can see this because I'm doing it as hard as I can"
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
Oh my god, is this again a sort of logic of the US systems? An UN resolution in 1967 says, that no state or country can own a planet. Mr. Dennis Hope read this and found out that this resolutions just talks about "states", and not "private persons", so he got the rights to the moon ... yes ?
... ? Hello ? Whats that ? How can he get rights to the moon from a state when a state is not allowed to have any rights ... uhm ... ?
Let's take a look at this.
A state can not be the owner of a planet. So Mr. Dennis Hope walks asks the state to get the rights to the moon
Go to this site http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/outerspt.htm to see a synopsis of the Space Treaty from the UN Office in Vienna . You can also read the whole Space Treaty here http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/outersptxt.h tml
Also you can Google or Yahoo! "space treaty" and see similar pages from the US government , NASA , FAS and others
Regarding the property on the Moon issue
- "Outer Space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall be free for exploration and use by all States (=the countries signing the Treaty) without discrimination of any kind, on a basis of equality and in accordance with international law, and there shall be free access to all areas of celestial bodies. " (Article I)
- "... The activities of non-governmental entities in Outer Space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty .
- If some people think there is a loophole
- if the countries really disagree with something on the Treaty
- How selfish can a person be to claim something that he did not find first or travelled to before everybody ?
- The general idea behind this (nonarmament) Treaty , which was ratified by 125 countries , is that Outer Space is FREE for all mankind , for the benefit of all mankind
- If a person does not respect the UN and those 125 countries why should they respect him , or his claim , and not expel him from an area that is not his own , but a FREE area for EVERYBODY . Even if he goes there and he tries to fight for something that he can't own (according to Article II) , can he compete with the most powerful countries on Earth ? And if so , for what reason since he then won't be able to enter these countries , not to mention commerce with them ?
- UN legal experts state that the Moon falls under the legal concept of res communis , which means everyone owns it (the concept is also applied to International Waters)
- How does a person hopes to find $60,000,000 from a company while according to the Treaty any non-governmental entity needs the authorization of the the appropriate country ? Why would they give authorization for a journey to the Moon , especially since it might possibly cause legal battles between a company claiming it got there first(?) and all the countries that have signed the Treaty . According to Article II , sovereignity on Outer Space cannot be claimed by means of use or occupation or any other means . Not to mention that no company would risk $60,000,000 while it cannot profit from the investment since it would contradict with the free character of Outer Space . Alternatively , which company would risk fighting with the UN and the 125 countries by disregarding the Treaty
- He still waits for an answer from the US and Russia for the last 25 years . The fact that he demanded them to answer if they have objections with his claim does not mean they would dignify his letter by answering it . If a person sends a claim for the internatational waters or the air around Earth I don't think they would answer him/her either
- The fact that he probably sent "deeds" as gifts to all these fa
The politics will soon follow the economic. it would be wise to stay ahead of things in this regard.