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Sony DRM Installed Even When EULA Declined
HikingStick writes "News.com is reporting that the Texas attorney general is expanding the allegations against Sony. It seems the software would install even if users declined the EULA. From the article: 'The Texas attorney general said on Wednesday that he added a new claim to a lawsuit charging Sony BMG Music Entertainment with violating the state's laws on deceptive trade practices by hiding 'spyware' on its compact discs ... The new charges brought by Abbott contend that MediaMax software used by Sony BMG to thwart illegal copying of music on CDs violated state laws because it was downloaded even if users rejected a license agreement.'"
"Can I come into your house?"
"Nope."
"Ok."
Man turns around to find the stranger at the door has already moved his shit into his house. Does this not constitute tresspassing?
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Let's look at the article:
'The Texas attorney general said on Wednesday that he added a new claim to a lawsuit charging Sony BMG Music Entertainment with violating the state's laws on deceptive trade practices by hiding 'spyware' on its compact discs
Oh, so the state was hurt, and they're the ones who have to go after Sony?
The way I see it, Sony breached a contract. This is easily resolved in court, and anyone who had their contract breached by Sony should go ahead and file an independent lawsuit (not a class action lawsuit). You can hire a local attorney and move forward.
Wait, it is costly to sue a big company? Might that be due to the laws created in your state? Might that be due to the lawyers in control of the operation of the law?
No matter how often you lose, you will continue to lose. The system isn't by the People for the People any more. We're living in a country where the system is so powerful, only the powerful have rights. Let's ignore the state's concerns in this situation -- they're only going to find themselves stronger. They're going to fight Sony with millions of taxpayer dollars, and if they win, the taxpayers won't see a cent, but a bunch of state lawyers and Sony lawyers will be wealthier.
Step back. Look at the problem. The problem is that contract law is too complicated, and you can't fight a contract violation in court without a contract lawyer who likely is part of an organization that wrote the law. Ignore Sony, ignore all terribly written contracts. We need to get to the source of the problem and fix it. Let us return to the days when the law was simple to read, and simple to enforce. Let us return to the days when we could walk up to a court clerk, file a grievance and sue the people who violated the contract, just them and us.
Who is with me in asking for an amendment limiting all laws to one topic, 200 words or less, and only can pass with a signature of the President and a signature of a random person with a 3rd grade education who agrees that even they understand the law?
What Sony did was bad, but if contract law was written clearly and concisely, we'd have ways to defend ourselves cheaply and efficiently. The law is a mockery of justice today, and there is ZERO way for any individual or small group to win in the long run.
FYI, for other anarchocapitalists out there, my solution is true moderated arbitration mechanisms in a free market, not the law or the courts.
By clicking "Agree" below, you agree to the terms of this EULA. By clicking "Decline" below, you agree to the terms of this EULA.
[ AGREE ] [ DECLINE ]
Shouldn't these charges also be mirrored by the feds seeing how Sony is an international company who's crossed state lines with malicious code?
Walk with Music;
Just speculation, but if the software is installed even if the EULA is rejected, could not one point to that and say, hey, you installed the software even after we said no to the license, so I guess you think the license doesn't mean anything, eh?
...this is a bit ridiculous on its face. Sure the spyware is illegal in about a dozen different ways (depending on your state) but... this all hinges on whether or not we accept or decline a EULA? How does that make sense?
That kind of reasoning by implication gives EULAs legitimacy which THEY DO NOT HAVE.
Since when under common law do we have such outrageously elaborate and suprising binding legal agreements by parties without equal representation?
Since when can agreement be given by pressing a mouse button or removing shrinkwrap?
The EULA itself is an ugly audacious legal fiction... this is why they needed UCITA to attempt to legitimize them after the fact.
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I click through EULAs because I dont think they have any legal weight. Sony in turn ignores my requests not to install since they don't think EULA's have any legal weight. In sshort the 'A' in EULA is not an agreement, meeting of minds, or a legal contract. I'm fine with that I guess. Those privacy rights were unenforcable anyhow so I lose nothing.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Normally, I don't like to see stories like this go on ad-nauseum, but in this case, I relish seeing Sony getting repeatedly pummeled in the news and across the blog landscape.
The longer this trainwreck of a DRM debacle goes on, the happier I get. I know... it's kind of like a disease.
Now if only the death penalty in Texas applied to corporations...
whatever. this is a majordomo issue! ALOT of people get in trouble, when they don't understand the basic principle of "No means No".
Sure am glad I've only purchased indie cd's in the last few years! Apparently not only do the big companies cram crappy music down your ears, but they also cram crappy software into your computer.
I thought this was already revealed a week or so after this whole DRM story broke?
Is anyone surprised?
*Wind howling*
*Dogs barking in the distance*
*Tumbleweed passes*
*Chuch bell tolls in the next town*
No I didn't think so either.
When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
Oh let the lawsuits start a rolling. I would be very disappointed if ever state did not take action here. This is clearly illegal, and the government needs to take action to demonstrate this is not acceptable and that proper punishment is handed out (I wouldnt mind having a couple people go to jail to)
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
For example, I was planning on buying a new widescreen tv and a psp, but because of the rootkit etc I decided against a Sony tv and i'm probably going to buy either a Nintendo DS or the GPX2.
I wonder, if Sony has lost any sales because of this. Just how much in cash it has cost them?
I really hate it that in order to install software, you HAVE to agree to the EULA. BUT, if you don't agree, the software doesn't install and you can't return the software to the store. So basically, you have no choice but to accept the EULA or eat the cost of the software. Very unfair. As a result, I just click OK and the software vendors can kiss my ass about the EULA. As far as I'm concerned, it's meaningless and if they have a problem, they'll have to come and get me.
can they just go around breaking every statement of EULA... as it has been already been declined by the user but the s/w is on computer...
everyone downmodding this post will be prosecuted for reading my post without first buying a license!!!
This is the original blog that revealed the SunnComm DRM installed despite the user declining the EULA. Whereas the XCP DRM could hide behind the EULA excuse, I don't see how SunnComm has any legal fig leaf here (though IANAL).
Supposedly there is about ten times more SunnComm DRM in the wild than XCP DRM, so maybe Sony felt they couldn't sacrifice holiday sales despite the legal exposure.
Sony is complaining that although they declined the offer to be sued, the Texas AG is still pursuing the case.
xkcd.com - a webcomic of mathematics, love, and language.
By sheer coincidence, when most software is being installed, declining the EULA will stop installation. I don't think it's a law, it's more at the software company's discretion. They have to determine if the user MUST accept in order to use their software. In this case, they just put in a EULA for some recommended leisure reading before installing
My name is Wootzor von Leetenhaxor
Right, and nerds who read Slashdot constitute maybe 0.01% of the U.S. population?? And those who really care are probably a fraction of that.
FTA: "The creator of the copy-protection software, a British company called First 4 Internet, said the cloaking mechanism was not a risk. The company's team has worked regularly with big antivirus companies to ensure the safety of its software, and to make sure it is not picked up as a virus, he said."
First of all, I would like to know who these "big antivirus" companies are so I can stop using their product (assuming I might be). That or to make sure I never use or recommend them to others'.
We are in trouble when antivirus companies are in backroom negotiations with virus makers, I assume for profit, not to detect one virus in favor of another.
How can I trust they haven't negotiated other backroom deals with virus/spyware writers that let other viruses and spyware on my machine?
I want to know who these "anti" virus companies are!
I haven't obtained a new CD in ages, but if this is true, I hope SONY & their Spyware Partner MediaMax take a good fall for this. The funy thing is everyone calling it a /*conspiracy theory*/ /* end conspiracy theory */
"R00+ ||+." but if it's installing with / without EULA, then I guess it pretty much is a rootkit.
I would be highly interested to see if the exploit code for it was "leaked" somewhere by a MediaMax employee. Maybe some programmer had it out for Sony?
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Egregious Unbelievable Lawyer Audacity
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The "I no longer want to buy this kind of music! Screw CD's, hello iTunes!" crowd just keep getting more ammo. However, I view this as far more harmful to the general cause of the music industry as a whole, rather than the demonization of a single company. I really think that this is one less block in an already shakey Janga Tower of the music industry's construction.
Also, though the class action suit is well meant, I feel it's out of place (as was mentioned earlier).
Each time I think I Sony could not have made this any worst, something like this comes up. I fully expect to hear that if you run the software backwards it says something satanic.
Sony has a piece of DRM software, that when installed, allows me to play the tracks off one of thier mixed-mode CDs?
Seems to me someone could easily reverse engineer (remember not to agree to any silly Eula) and build an equivalent piece of software that can bypass any DRM attempt.
So, what do I google for?
TODO: create/find/steal funny sig.
If it were me who tried to install spyware on people's PC's using music CDs, the answer would be yes.
On the other hand, if it were a wealthy multinational corporation who did so, the answer would be... perhaps we can find a discrete settlement to avoid any discomfort to our most valued citizens.
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I have an RCA Victor (one of Sony/BMG's brands) with MediaMax. It absolutely installs software on your computer, even =before= the EULA response box pops up.
Could it be that the people cheering for Sony getting punished for breaking US laws are the same as those howling about Microsoft getting punished for breaking EU laws.
Don't put off until tomorrow what you can leave until the day after.
We live in the age of Corporate Anarchy. A Corporation has had, in the past, essentially the same rights as an individual human. Now, however, individual rights have been taken away, yet the Corporation is free to do what it pleases. Corporations like SONY feel they are above the law, and are now testing to see how far they can go. After Corporate Anarchy comes Corporate Rule. I would not shed a tear if the Individuals were to blow up Corporate buildings, clean out Corporate bank accounts, and fight in a [very bloody] Revolution against Government and Corporation (war against Facism, in other words). Civil war, if you could call it that, but more like the French Revolution. I think there is no other way around it, because History shows us that it will happen.
Imagine if you order a box of catfood to be delivered that's worth about $10. And then the next day a crowd of 15 attorneys in suits arrive at your door with a 20 page contract, and the box. They won't give you the catfood until you agree to their "license." You can either call your own attorneys, if you have any, and spend several weeks evaluating their contract at the cost of several thousand dollars of your own money, or, they say, you can simply agree to the contract by blinking your eyes.
It turns out that there were worms in the catfood and now your cat is incredibly sick. Amazingly, the attorneys did this on purpose. If you take her to the vet, it will cost you hundreds of dollars to cure her. You don't remember blinking, but they swear you did.
The government has sent an angry letter to the catfood guys, but no one looks like they have any intention of paying your vet bill - or even sending your cat a get well card.
In response to the government, the catfood people announce they've "solved" the problem, because they've agreed to temporarily stop shipping worms in catfood. However, they're still shipping spiders, ants, and leeches - and they have "big plans" to expand the practice.
You don't know exactly how long your cat has left to live, but after watching all this, you get the feeling its days are numbered one way or another.
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Personally, I think EULAs are completely unenforcable; I bought some piece of software, I should be allowed to use that piece of software without agreeing to anything else. In my view, software should install without any problem if I choose to decline the EULA.
Now of course this is a rootkit, not something you bought, nobody wants on their computer and so on, but then sue them for that. I'd rather see some software maker sued because their software didn't install when the user declined the EULA, than the other way around.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
And you're surprised because...?
No one would agree to having this put on their computer if they actually knew what it was. So Sony has to sneak it on when you're not looking.
I would like the settlement for this make their recent $10M payola penality look like peanuts -- or Bill Gate's pocket change.
Sony needs to go down!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Because they didn't violate the DMCA. They have a reasonable argument for the legitimacy of their software that doesn't involve circumvention of a device to control access to a protected work. It does circumvent the device, it is true, but this is simply a side effect of remviong software that degrade's the computer's security.
Me: "Oh that's nothing. If you play it forward it installs Windows."
For example, I was planning on buying a new widescreen tv and a psp, but because of the rootkit etc I decided against a Sony tv and i'm probably going to buy either a Nintendo DS or the GPX2.
/. It is especially annoying because I have been a satisfied customer for decades and now I have to learn to shop again. And it's all changed.
I wonder, if Sony has lost any sales because of this. Just how much in cash it has cost them?
I too dropped any plans to buy Sony products, and removed their products from my wish list and explained to people I usually exchange gifts with why. I expect that that response is common on
SELECT manufacturer FROM manufacturerTable WHERE (name 'SONY') AND NOT riaaMember AND (quality > sucks);
Free Adam Smith! (Or best offer.)
What I want to know - when is someone going to go after Sony for the infringment of the GPL! That is the greater offence in my mind!
It's not just nerds who read Slashdot. This was reported all over the place.
It's also not just the US population.
And at least some people have decided not to purchase Sony equipment. I decided not to get myself a PSP. Maybe on its own, this sort of thing isn't going to be noticable on their balance sheet, but if they keep pulling this kind of stunt, more ethical companies will have that small advantage that may give them the lead.
I found this online, it's a list of CD's that have the DRM... don't remember where and I don't know if it's totally accurate but I think it serves as a good list of CD's to be suspicious of. Foo Fighters - In Your Honour Van Zant - Get Right with the Man Ricky Martin - Life Sarah McLachlan - Bloom Remix Album Celine Dion - On Ne Change Pas Neil Diamond - 12 Songs Natasha Bedingfield - Unwritten Kings of Leon - Aha Shake Heartbreak Santana - All That I Am Chris Botti - To Love Again Switchfoot - Nothing Is Sound Patty Loveless - Dreamin' My Dreams Montgomery Gentry - Something To Be Proud Of: The Best of 1999-2005 Mary Mary - Mary Mary My Morning Jacket - Z David Gray - Life In Slow Motion Bob Brookmeyer - Bob Brookmeyer & Friends Shelly Fairchild - Ride Kasabian - Kasbian Pete Seeger - The Essential Pete Seeger The Bad Plus - Suspicious Activity Elkland - Golden Susie Suh - Susie Suh Buddy Jewel - Times Like These Chayanne - Cautivo A Static Lullaby - Faso Latido Our Lady Peace - Healthy In Paranoid Times The Coral - The Invisible Invasion Dexter Gordon - Manhattan Symphonie Acceptance - Phantoms Dion - The Essential Dion The Dead 60s - The Dead 60s Goapele - Change It All Los Lonely Boys - TBD Life of Agony - Broken Valley George Jones - My Very Special Guests Horace Silver - Silver's Blue Amici Forever - Defined Ahmed Jamal - The Legendary Okeh and Epic Recordings Anna Nalick - Wreck of the Day Hitch - Soundtrack Charlotte Martin - On Your Shore Vivian Green - Vivian Raheem DeVaughn - The Love Experience Amerie - Touch Nivea - Complicated Mario - Turning Point G3 - Live In Tokyo
This just in! 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population.
And Performance. Don't forget this thing can end up running continuously consumung both memory and cpu cycles.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
"'The Texas attorney general said on Wednesday that he added a new claim to a lawsuit charging Sony BMG Music Entertainment with violating the state's laws on deceptive trade practices by hiding 'spyware' on its compact discs"
Anybody else making the connection between this DRM tactic and those of the PSP, where Sony has plans to continuously update the DRM of the PSP with every new game release whether you like it or not. I'm sensing a disturbing trend- actually, it's been going on for quite some time now -in Sony's insistance on reguulating the hardware you already own contrary to your wishes.
Thankfully, their foothold on the PC industry is far less pervasive than it is in the console industry.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
This may be new to Texas's attourney general, but not to anyone else, really.
New York, NY - December 22, 2005 -- Sony Corporation of America announced today that Tim Schaaff has been appointed to the newly-created position of Senior Vice President of Software Development, effective immediately. Mr. Schaaff reports to Keiji Kimura, EVP and Officer in Charge of Technology Strategy of Sony Corporation.
http://www.sony.com/SCA/press/051222.shtml
Hmm someone get fired?
The result of your query:
0 rows returned
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
just stop buying music until sony stops. better yet, stop buying music until the industry puts out something worth buying. i really dont see the issue here. yes sony is breaking the law and nothing is going to be done about it. but that LIFE. stop being a consumer and the problem will go away.
This story just keeps on coming, and every day I watch the news hoping to see the message brought home to the masses, and every day I am disappointed. Now, corporate control of the media is a stereotype of the US, not the UK, where I live. What is the BBC's excuse for not reporting on this, given their predisposition to reporting on the buzzword Outlook Express worm of the day scare story??
Not to sound melodramatic, but we're supposed to be living in the fucking information age here. If people are still too ignorant to care about something like this, then all these advances are as superficial as I expected. Goddamnit I wish I could freeze myself for 1000 years or something and be part of a society where I would be the one being stretched. [note to dumbass flamers: this little comment is based on more than just my own perceived computer literacy. It's been a general theme throughout my life]
For right now, it's not dead.
Sony announces shovel too inefficient. Will now dig hole using backhoe (in your garden, even after saying 'no').
ummm... that's because no means yes.
You obviously don't have much experience with salespeople.
I dare you to tell them no.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Does declining a EULA actually mean declining the installation, or does it mean you're not bound by the license?
Software users are used to not being granted any rights to use software without a license, but that doesn't mean some license or other is required in order to receive & install software.
Of course, if there's no license, then all the usual protections - waiver of liability from damages, merchantibility, fitness for a particular purpose, etc. - don't apply. All they've got is straight copyright protection.
No wonder they're getting sued. What idiot allows users to install software without indemnifying the hell out of themselves?
you exchange something of value for something else of value.
Most people think of a piece of paper when they think of a contract. This is wrong thinking. The piece of paper in nothing more than a record of the contract.
As an example, Joe Six-pack buys a Sony CD from Rip-Off records. When Joe hands the clerk his money, something of value, and walks out of the store with his CD, something of value, then there is a contract between Joe and Rip-Off records that is guided by the commerce laws.
Now let's take a look at Sony/MicroShit/**AA. When Joe gets home he puts his CD in a machine that he has purchased, in another contract, to play the music on the CD. Lo and behold, an EULA pops up! "WTF is this?" Joe righteously asks. "I have a contract with Rip-Off records, not Sony. Sony entered into a contract with Rip-Off records. Sony received money for this disk and it's contents from Rip-Off records. How can they impose a contract on me?"
Good question, Joe! Maybe it's the fault of the bribed government officials and inept judges. However this has happened you are screwed
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
I was going to buy PS3 next year, but won't do that because of this rootkit incident.
How will this pending lawsuit affect the Playstation 3? They are already taking a large risk by putting out a very expensive gamming console. If this has already affected TV sales it will be interesting to see how it will affect the launch of their new console
I think you have posted in the wrong thread. You probably wanted this thread.
The EULA is a way for the company to get you to agree to certain terms (usually surrendering certain rights) in exchange for getting the software. If the software installs even when you click DISAGREE, all that means is you are getting the software (for better or worse, as the case may be) without having agreed to surrender the righs listed in the EULA. (the EULA is NOT for your protection, it's to protect the manufacturer from YOU)
NOW, one standard subset of the rights you surrender when agreeing with the EULA basically says you agree that the software is "as-is", "not fit for any particular purpose", etc. Basically you agree not to sue the manufacturer for any ill-effects caused by the software, even if the effects are known or the manufacturer was grossly neglegent in their design. Oftentimes these provisions are actually illegal or legally unenforceable though, but they basically stuff anything in there they can think of that makes them feel warm and fuzzy that they are bulletproof.
So this does not represent an illegal act, but rather it opens up the software distributor to numerous legal liabilities that the EULA would otherwise have afforded them some protection from. Given the extremely nasty nature of the software it installs, this should make a perfect target for lawsuits, since by installing the software without getting an agreement to the EULA, they have essentially taken off all their legal armor and stand naked before the courts.
I don't know if the installer basically behaves the same for the agree button as it does for the disagree, but from the article it rather souds that way. That being the case, it would be extremely difficult for Sony to prove that anyone agreed to the EULA. (normally the fact that the software got installed indicates you agreed, but not in this case) That means anyone that ran the installer has an opportunity to file a lawsuit based on harm received from their software, since Sony has no proof you agreed to their terms. (agreed to not sue them)
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
This comment has gone from +4 Insightful to -1 Troll to +2 Funny in the space of a couple of minutes. It's more fun to watch than a presidential debate :)
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
33.02. BREACH OF COMPUTER SECURITY.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly accesses a computer, computer network, or computer system without the effective consent of the owner.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class B misdemeanor unless in committing the offense the actor knowingly obtains a benefit, defrauds or harms another, or alters, damages, or deletes property, in which event the offense is:
(1) a Class A misdemeanor if the aggregate amount involved is less than $1,500;
(2) a state jail felony if:
(A) the aggregate amount involved is $1,500 or more but less than $20,000; or
(B) the aggregate amount involved is less than $1,500 and the defendant has been previously convicted two or more times of an offense under this chapter;
(3) a felony of the third degree if the aggregate amount involved is $20,000 or more but less than $100,000;
(4) a felony of the second degree if the aggregate amount involved is $100,000 or more but less than $200,000; or
(5) a felony of the first degree if the aggregate amount involved is $200,000 or more.
(c) When benefits are obtained, a victim is defrauded or harmed, or property is altered, damaged, or deleted in violation of this section, whether or not in a single incident, the conduct may be considered as one offense and the value of the benefits obtained and of the losses incurred because of the fraud, harm, or alteration, damage, or deletion of property may be aggregated in determining the grade of the offense.
Now let's look at Sony's actions:
"without effective consent" - yes, after rejection of EULA. Maybe even if EULA accepted. See definitionf consent, under "induced by deception".
"obtains a benefit" - yes.
"benefits may be aggregated" - applies
(for first degree felony) "aggregate amount (of benefit) involved is $200,000 or more" - maybe, based on total sales
Sec. 12.32. FIRST DEGREE FELONY PUNISHMENT.
(a) An individual adjudged guilty of a felony of the first degree shall be punished by imprisonment in the institutional division for life or for any term of not more than 99 years or less than 5 years.
Any questions?
Sounds to me more like Sony didn't have a finger-pointing target, so they created one.
"You know you're narcissistic when you quote yourself in your sigs." -- PRoPAiN!
Remember this is almost a bait and switch, the people bought a Celine Deon album and got the DRM disaster along with it.
Right. They were looking for a musical disaster, not a computer based one...
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
We dont want the EULA argument to really matter when it comes to this. If its found the a EULA is a binding contract then companies can start putting random crap in them, cause they know 99% of people dont read them, and then they can sue you when you violate it. We have always argued that we shouldnt have to follow a EULA on software as a binding contract because often they are unfair and make no sense. However if we force this issue the door has to swing both ways which means it could come back to bite us in the ass!
[ AGREE ] [ $sys$'I' DECLINE $sys$'my right to decline, so go ahead and install your sweet spyshit' ]
Why....why....
That's just unfair! Someone ought to pass a law against these so-called rights.
Oh, they are? That's better. We can't have states like Texas threaten our God-given right to Raping and Pillaging (TM and Patent Pending) our customers, can we? Next thing you know they'll be claiming people have a right to privacy and Freedom of Speach.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
Why hasn't this been all over the major news networks. It maybe got a small blip when the first batch of CDs were removed from stores, but then has dropped out of sight (except on smaller media outlets). Sony should truly be getting reamed for this action.
Maybe if the execs in the music industry finally realized that decline in sales is due to decline in quality, instead of "piracy", something productive could come out of the music industry again.
They lost my sale on a digital camera last month, and on a digital surround sound receiver this month. WTG Sony.
Cheesy Movie Night
I didn't want a PSP because it basically has no games I like (compared to Nintendo), and even if it did, I wouldn't buy it because of how it restricts you (UMD, Memorystick) even if I would have never used those features. I would stay away from MP3 players that support DRM music also, on principle.
:)
As for telling other people, I have told my family and friends, and asked them to pass it on (most have). Unfortunately for me my parents had just before this purchased a 32" Sony HDTV but no matter. Nothing more from Sony. I've been warning them about things such as these overbearing copy protections and why they should be afraid (you won't be able to watch that except in this player between these hours and not more than 1 yr after purchase yada yada). I hope that one day they become paranoid enough to start using tinfoil hats
By reading this, you have given me brief control of your mind.
Am I the only one that thinks the industry has started planting posts in places like this? It seems like lately whenever I read posts like this there is always someone who tries to defend the actions of the copyright industry in a way that smirks of zealous faith. Well if the industry were a religion, I could see it but they are not. Now I am not one to believe this it is not possible that someone in the world really finds this all okay, but was amazes me is how coordinated it all seems. It seem like in Geek, Slashdot, Digg, and Zdnet that moments after a post holding the industry in a bad light some poster shows up zealously defending the industry's actions. I wonder now if it is more than chance. Has the industry realized the power of these posts and started to plant these types of responses?
EULA: End User Loses Always
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
EULA now stands for Every User Likely Affected
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Just wait til next week when we find out that the Sony rootkit kills children and depletes the ozone layer...
I thought this was something we already knew...?
Seriously, though, when are the recording companies going to come to their senses over this - that DRM promotes piracy?
A friend of mine was working on a DVD slideshow of some trip photos and needed a musical backdrop; he chose a part of the Grand Canyon Suite and went to the trouble to legally acquire it through a download. Turns out he can't use it because of the DRM attached to the file.
His next step? Limewire, because he can get a file he can actuallly use for what he legally acquired the music for. DRM has taught him that if he goes to the trouble of legally acquiring music, he'll be punished for it, so he's better off downloading it through a P2P network.
DRM that prevents fair use (under which his usage falls) is NOT a deterrant to piracy - it encourages it.
DRM that restricts a choice of OS or playback device is NOT a deterrant to piracy - it encourages it.
I don't download music myself and haven't purchased a CD (even used) for about 5 years because of this nonsense. RIAA, if you want me to pay for music, I'll be happy to - as long as I can listen to my purchases on my iPod, on my Linux systems (as I don't do Windows here) without having to screw around at all. Most of your customers are trustworthy; don't punish the majority for the actions of a minority group.
In the end, you punish yourselves by making it difficult to consume your content. We'll either go somewhere else to get your content or we'll decide your content isn't worth acquiring. In my case, it's the latter - because let's face it, most of the crap that comes out of the recording industry is just that - crap.
Insanity is a gradual process; don't rush it.
Texas is probably looking for some money out of this deal... a la the big tobacco lawsuits.
When will we see CRIMINAL charges brought against Sony?
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.
...that gives you STD's when you sleep with it, but also one of those friggin sadistic pricks who goes around poking people with infected needles. Just makes me sick. Boycott.
You, sir, are much too attached to your computer.
John McCormick makes some interesting observations at the following Tech Republic link:
h tml?tag=nl.e101
http://techrepublic.com.com/5100-1009_11-5991769.
Quoting from his article:
---- Begin Quote ---
"The latest Sony debacle shows once again that you can't be too paranoid. A month ago, I personally would have never given a second thought to playing a new brand-name music CD in an office computer--now I wouldn't even duplicate one for personal backup.
And isn't that interesting? Could it be that Sony planned this whole thing just to stop people from making backups of their favorite CDs by scaring them out of even putting CDs in their PCs?
Even those users who only made backups and ignored DRM threats will now be extremely cautious about putting any Sony CD in their PC. Could there be something even more sinister to this story than mere incompetence?"
--- End of Quote ---
Hmmmm....... sort of makes one think, eh?
This whole situation with DRM, RIAA, big record companies is really starting to bug me. I just happen to believe that if I pay good money for a CD, a vinyl record, or any piece of music, that I should be allowed to convert it and play it on whatever technology is available to me, as long as I don't give it away to everyone else in the world!
The Shift key theoretically works, but doesn't always. I've held down the key, then inserted the CD, waited ten seconds, and then let go, and sometimes the CD still starts the autorun program. How long are you supposed to hold down the shift key?
What has worked flawlessly for me is this: hold the shift key down while the disc is spinning up. After the light goes out, you need to wait until there is a second blip on the activity LED. It's that second blip that actually indicated that the system is searching the disc for an autorun.inf file. If I release the Shift before that second blip, the autorun kicks in - every time. If I wait for about one or two seconds after that second blip, the autorun is stopped.
How long this takes seems to be determined by how easily your disc is read by the drive. I have one system with two DVD writers, one old, one new. A CD-R on the old one can take upwards of 30 seconds for it to be recognized and searched for the autorun file. The new drive takes about 10 seconds. In either case, waiting until after the second activity light to release the Shift prevent the autorun.
Just my two one-hundreths of a dollar. Convert to your currency as apporpriate.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
Well I went for Panasonic over Sony in a recent purchase. But that is due not just to the rootkit thing; Sony is getting a reputation for producing low-quality rubbish these days, so that influenced my decision. Samsung and LG will overtake its reputation soon (after all, they actually make their own products don't they?).
Ask your parents if they would have still bought the Sony knowing what they know now about the whole CD debacle.
Honestly you reach a point in your life (say age 30) where you just don't really care about these things any more.
First... you can sue anyone you want without a lawyer. It will take time and effort on your part to learn the appropriate forms and notifications... but how complicated can it be? I mean if lawyers can do it... (also... your goal is not to win... but to suck up Sony's legal budget). Heck if even a few hundred people filed suit independantly that would be enough paperwork to freak the Sony legal team out in a big way.
Second... if Sony installs software without you agreing to the EULA... doesn't that mean I can do what ever I want with the software. Reverse engineer it, run it on as many computers as I want, etc etc. Having they're root kit without an EULA could be an advantage if you're into root kits.
Lastly... if Sony installs software on my computer without my authorization... isn't that illegal use of a computer? They arrested that guy in Florida for using an open wifi network... surely something like installing software without authorization must be a felony somewhere.
Regards,
Rob
Yes, but that penalty is for "an individual". What happens when the person comitting the offense is a corporation? Perhaps Sony will re-instigate the old Kamakazi principle here and find a volunteer to be "the individual" for the glory of the Emperor, errrrr, corporate masters.
it was downloaded even if users rejected a license agreement.
How is installing software from a CD to the hard drive considered downloading? There's no network transfer; it's just installing from dumb media.
I hope the charge uses the correct terminology.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
I take issue with this comment: "used by Sony BMG to thwart illegal copying of music on CDs"
Since when was it illegal to copy a music CD to put it on ones iPod? Doing so with regular music CDs doesn't violate the DMCA since there is no protection circumvention or reverse engineering going on, so this SHOULD still be legal in the US.
Of course, IANAA (I Am Not An American), so I may have it wrong.
IANAL, but as the law stands in the US, as it's illegal to circumvent copy protection measures, could it be argued it's illegal to remove the Sony rootkit and suchlike?
and so are DRM programmers (though it may be hard to believe). They also click through EULAs without looking. Even supposing that someone actually gave them this completely fictitious use case of "imagine someone selecting 'No' at this point", that still doesn't mean the programmer is going to implement it, much less to actually test it.
I can assure you, the best way to get rid of dragons is to have one of your own.
Regardless of any other arguements, Sony will likely lose if the software installs regardless of agreement to the EULA. If you follow rulings made involving software EULAs over the last few years it pretty much boils down to two points:
1) EULAs are "king". Once you agree to them you have little to argue about unless it is extreme or unusual circumstances (like the EULA violating your fundimental rights, etc).
2) Consumers *must* be allowed the opportunity to decline the EULA and have nothing changed on their system, and, in conjunction with this, they must be allowed to return the software if they do not agree to the EULA.
The second point was what got MS in trouble over the way you had to agree to their EULA by opening the box before you could even read the EULA, and thus voiding any return possibilities. In this case, if Sony is installing software without your consent, and specifically if you decline the EULA, then they are liable and will likely lose this suit.
You are who you are, let no one tell you different. But, never close your mind to a new point of view.
If you read this stuff and replace "Sony" with "John Smith", would not one be feeling just a little sorry for John being Bhubbas b1tch right now?
So the bigger question is why isn't the CEO/MD of Sony now trying to negotiate through broken front teeth with Bhubba?
And my answer to that question is that the legal system is obviously broken, in a wheel has fallen off and it's heading towards the armco kinda way.
threadeds blog
I can't say if they would have, but I know they have asked me to copy DVDs before for them so they wouldn't have restricted operations, and so they could bring around the discs without having to worry about them getting ruined or forgetting them. They understand that they wouldn't have to ask me to do this if the encryption didn't exist. I've tried to teach them how to do it, but thats beyond them for some reason.
By reading this, you have given me brief control of your mind.
This is true. The only real heavy you could lay against a large corporation is such a severe financial penalty that it is just as painful to the corporation as a whole as a prison sentence is to an individual.
If the average individual would be getting 2-5 years jailtime, I want a financial penalty so heavy that Sony is feeling the aftereffects for 2-5 years to come.
I for one am out. Sony's off my list of corps to buy from. I don't care if they have 80" TVs for $50, Sony is done in my book. (Like Disney and their constant assault on the public domain...)
I was going to give the PS3 a chance to see how it performed, but now I won't even bother. Sony's rootkit AND their response had everything to do with it. The PS3 may be a great console, but I don't care. They're not getting another dime from me.
No more TVs, no more DVD players, no more movies from Sony Corp's movie holdings. They have screwed the pooch. It's done. I'm finished. They can rot. I really don't care what their "excuse of the day" press release says. They are criminals.
If anyone thinks that this is too harsh, note that I am not advocating anyone else to follow in my footsteps. I leave that decision to the individual. Something Sony is incapable of doing.
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
I'm typing this post on a one year old VAIO laptop that I really couldn't be happier with. One of its most impressive attributes is its screen -- I'm in the market for a widescreen TV and I'm about to drop a lot of cash... I REALLY love this screen...I'd really love to watch TV on it... ...but after this, how could I really be sure my TV won't blow up if a friend pops in some DVD that happens to be pirated?
I'm 35 and it still matters to me. And no, this is not just a debacle, a fiasco, or a mixup. This is criminal behavior from a corporation that thinks it can just do anything.
:)
Sorry, no matter how old you are, it should matter to you. Otherwise what's the point? Why are you reading Slashdot if you just don't care?
My parents have sworn off Sony products long before this happened, simply because Sony's quality has been in the toilet for a while now. They've had trouble with 2 televisions (27" and 32") within 4 years of purchase that pissed them off. Now they ignore Sony.
Either way, it's a win for the anti-Sony crowd.
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
everyone is talking about jsut a hand full of ppl going after sony.... what we really need is a nice big company to do something about it. if microsoft is gonna loose a lil money to EU then why teh hell on't they do something about it and make some money back by going after sony? if a few months when teh ps3 comes out they're gonan be beating each other up anyways, so let's start teh party early. It'd be a ton of fun to watch.
Texas sticks it to Sony and France sticks it to the recording industry, and everyone cheers. If that is not proof the world is ending, then I do not know what is.
This is my sig.
Makes me feel bad that I got a giant Sony TV earlier this year. If this had happened sooner I wouldn't have even looked at them.
If I do not agree to the EULA and the software is installed anyway. Then I have not agreed to not reverse engineer it and a lot of other things? Copyright still applies but non of the EULA terms that go byond Copyright.
By expressly declining the terms of service you are taking measures to protect your system, which Sony then circumvents. IANAL and maybe I misunderstand the DMCA, but it seems like a violation to me.
After all, this is a tactic commonly used by racketeers. We give you a contract, you don't agree to it, and we act like you agreed to it anyways, and either demand/extort money/info from you, or we tear your shit up. In this case, Sony just tears your shit up.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
And here I thought that an article that has something to with music might actually go without an inane and irrelevant comment from Indie Fanboy. What would a music-related topic be without a stupid comment about how Indie music is "better" than Non-Indie music?
You sir, have restored my faith in Slashdot silliness. Although, next time if you could also include something about how your worthless Mac couldn't be affected, the rest of us would really appreciate it. Thanks.
And electricity, thus it should be possible to calculate a direct monetary damage that was caused by the installation.
I do not know of any Indie labels that sell CDs infected with DRM or any other crap. Only the big labels have the arrogance to do that type of stuff.
Religion is the main cause of atheism.
And who wants to bet whether or not Sony's lines of computers don't come with crap like this installed to begin with.
I -do not buy- sony products.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Who is with me in asking for an amendment limiting all laws to one topic, 200 words or less, and only can pass with a signature of the President and a signature of a random person with a 3rd grade education who agrees that even they understand the law?
You've got to be kidding, right? We don't really want to give that much power to one person...
I got hit by this because I had recently reinstalled my system and had stupidly not disabled autorun.
Why doesn't anyone seem fired up about autorun being on by default? Certainly pisses me off.
This is about MediaMax, NOT XCP
THERE IS NO ROOTKIT ON MediaMax "protected" CDs
Why?
;)
:)
Because anyone who would "decline" a EULA is obviously a PIRATE and thus, Sony was justified in pushing their malware through anyway
It's an argument only a SCO lawyer could make, but the RIAA seems full of them
Corporatism != Free Market
Right, and nerds who read Slashdot constitute maybe 0.01% of the U.S. population?? And those who really care are probably a fraction of that.
I emailed this original story translated into normal mundane American English to several friends and family members. I got a large number of responses how they felt about it, which was the same way I did. They won't be buying Sony either. Now, whenever there is news about Sony, they forward it to me so I can forward it to everyone else. Geeks are big on boycotting Sony but there are many non-geeks also on the bandwagon.
But why is the rum gone?
if you accept, it installs the software. if you decline, it installs the software and some tracking and monitoring software because you clearly have something to hide. w sez so.
Nope, sorry. I'm 52 and I still care about this stuff. 27 years ago my gf (now wife) bought a 19" Sony TV new for $550. Fantastic device. Later, a camcorder, and me a camcorder. Loved their quality. After this (and their previous DRM stance), when I shop I look at anything _but_ Sony. Even if they still made the best products out there, I'm not willing to sell my soul to the devil for them.
Ha, ha, ha, the word image is "victims"!
Monkeydo: "Google!"
"Merchantability and...
liability."
Vista:XPSP2::ME:98SE
I used to work in a rather large company where everyone had a computer. In the computers they all had CD Rom drives. They got their CD rom drives regardless of needing them. Many employees used the CD Rom Drives as CD Players just to listen to their music while they worked. Hummmm.. I can see the Headlines now, XYZ company was hacked and 5,000,000 accounts of personal information was stolen. Why? Because someone placed a SONY rootkit CD into their drive and the Root kit was exploited. It's a bad vision but with they way things are going, possably a reality
So, you can have the sheriff put a chain and padlock on their nearest corporate building? I'd imagine that one HOUR of the building being closed is about 10000x the cost of the small claims court settlement. That's awesome.
and i'm not talking about the texas attorney general versus sony.
rather i'm talking about sony's own attorneys being asleep at the wheel. in short, sony employs attorneys to protect its intellectual property from theft, but it is also supposed to have attorneys to protect it from making mistakes and incurring liabilities.
right now, i suspect there's an attorney within the sony organization who is quietly cursing the lawyers who passed approval on the drm scheme with no thought on what kinds of liabilities they could open sony up to. i suspect there is more than one law firm out there preparing to file class action papers against sony. the class after all potentially has thousands if not millions of people in it.
in my opinion, the best chance we have to squelch drm is not through fair use doctrine or some other proactive legislation but rather by making the media companies afraid to deploy drm out of fear of liability and being sued. in turn, i think that ultimately, "Big Media's" approach will be to get legislation that will shield it from liability.
perhaps, the best way to prevent draconian drm is to get legislation that actually strengthens user controlled security for desktop peecees. guarantee users' total control over their computers will ultimately force media and software companies to adopt more user friendly intellectual property rights schemes.
when religion is no longer the opiate of the masses, governments will resort to real opiates.
Fuck Sony.
:)
Fuck them in the ear. Fuck them in the nose. Cut yourself a hole in their rotten fucking carcass and fuck it with a power drill.
Fuck Sony.
Never, ever again will I give so much as the steam off my shit to those fucking bastards.
FUCK SONY.
And now a word from our sponsors
boycott sony. it's simple, effective, and to the point.
When my dad discovered he had the Sony DRM on his computer, he asked me to remove it. Knowing that using Sony's tool to do so would simply open more security holes (turning on automatic program installation in IE, for one), I decided to go through and remove it manually.
After uninstalling the services, deleting the hidden $sys$ files, and removing the related registry entries, my parents' computer refuses to boot. I get a very uninforative BSOD. If I go into Safe Mode, the boot process halts after loading mup.sys (thus telling me the problem is with the next driver, whatever that is), then gives me a BSOD. They have an HP Pavilion, which came with an on-disk recovery tool. Unfortunately, all that is is the Windows Recovery Console, like the one on the installation CD. The CD we do not own, because HP did not give us one. Yes, that's right - we paid for a Windows license, and received no form of installation utility whatsoever.
Before I could even GET to the Recovery Console, I had another problem to figure out. When I tried to boot it, I got the good ol' "NTLDR is compressed" error. I checked - it was not compressed.
To boot into the Recovery Console, I had to boot BartPE, copy the NTLDR file from the Windows partition to the recovery partition, and reboot.
I've done everything I can think of to fix this. I've reset the BIOS and CMOS, cleared the ESCD, disconnected every piece of hardware other than hard drive, processor, and memory, changed various settings in the BIOS... to no avail.
Now we had to pay $24 for HP to ship us a recovery CD so we can get the damn machine working again. Not only that, but everything I've read on the Web says that reinstalling XP does not fix this issue, and that it's hardware-related.
Before this problem showed up, I couldn't burn CDs at all. Before the DRM was installed, I had no trouble doing this. I'm beginning to wonder if the DRM altered my burner's firmware.
Here's a big fuck you to Sony, and a slightly smaller one to HP. You are completely inept.
I am scientifically inaccurate.
I'll trust Schrödinger with my cat before Sony any day of the week.
Greetings, Some people think that I have been barking at the moon for the past ten years. Sony's nasty secret of installing Spyware is the SAME THING AOL HAS BEEN DOING FOR OVER TEN YEARS!! I have been making a good income for some time just removing Gator from PC's with AOL. I remember laughing uncontrolably when AOL president went before the cameras saying how they are going to stop SPAM! The only problem AOL had with SPAMER'S is AOL didn't get a cut of the $$$! They did from Gator and the like! And they STILL DO! I am surprised that a greedy lawyers has not figured it out...YET! Given Sony's dirty little secret, it is only just a matter of time. Just like the tobacco lawyers, they finally hit the mother-loade, they can't touch the Gun industry, so now, it is soda! Caffine, and then, (looking into my crystal ball)...corn syrup in soda! You wait, Yoda is short, Yoda is wise! Actually I am tall...LOL!
That's not the worst of it. I am not a lawyer. However, I do know (if probably misunderstand) there's this nice thing called "the clean hands doctrine". It basically says that if you do something legally (or sometimes morally) wrong, and you try complaining in court about someone else doing something wrong, the judge will tell you to shove off — with the usual legalese bells and whistles. Sony has committed (arguably) a federal crime while trying to protect their copyrights. Their legal standing to protect those copyrights in court is thereby endangered. It's not CERTAIN a judge would rule against Sony on that basis... but if they get the wrong judge, he might well rule they are no longer allowed to enforce those copyright claims against anyone in the US who bought those DRMCDs. Not the sort of precedent the RIAA would want to risk seeing the light of day, even if it doesn't survive appeal.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
If this begat a tend, think of it:
Unethical companies would find themselves hard to find employees, because nobody wants to go under with the company. In the end, nobody would trust them: consumer, government watchdog, or employee. Basically, it would pay to be a more ethical company.
A more theoretical situation for sure, but not impossible. The problem is the lack of accountability... wherein the above brings some of that to the table.
Lots of people like to point out flaws in the corporate form of organization, and there are many areas of law that should be reformed / cleaned up in North America. In particular, we need to fix the relationship between management & shareholders -- it ignores the reality that shareholders have largely abandoned responsibility as "owners", but also tends to enshrine in law the idea that management can make unethical decisions in support of shareholder interests.
Having said that, the broader problem is the not the veil of the corporation, it's the veil of the organization. Many organizations that commit unethical or evil acts are private partnerships or syndicates or even loose collectives. Going back in history, we see atrocities committed in the name of many organizations: the nation, the state, the church, the race, the tribe, the interest group. Humans commit evil acts and use organizations as their tool. This is not to say that organizations are bad and we should all become anarchists (interesting idea in theory, as it may be).
My point is two-fold: all human organizations sow the seeds of their own destruction. They can be reformed and renewed, but without adapting to its external environment it will die, through irrelevance or overthrow. Secondly, revolution rarely works as intended; a revolt doesn't necessarily mean the new order will be better than the old order. More likely, it's "Here comes the New Boss, Same As The Old Boss".
-Stu
. . . but that's beside the point, millenial. Now, if I remember correctly, any attempt to uninstall the rootkit-based Sony DRM will screw up any form of recordable drive, be it CD-only, DVD-only, or CD/DVD combo, because that's the nature of the beast: "Fuck with me, and I'll fuck up your computer!"
Now, there are a few different theories on why - some people claim they've noticed that the DRMware modifies and/or overwrites the device drivers for the disc burners so that the drivers have to check for the DRMware and ask said DRMware "Is it okay to copy these songs to a disc?", some have said it's to do with the DRMware modifying the firmware, some people think it's basically nuking the write-to-disc ability of the drive - but whatever the underlying reason, the effect is still the same:
No CD burning for you!
Patrolling ftw
Looks like Sony has dug themselves quite a hole at this point. All I know is I am no longer purchasing their merchandise. :)
Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
Not quite as easy. Using it as a defense against T/W becomes a question of fact -- was it someone else exploiting the Sony rootkit who was really committing the piracy. As a question of FACT, the T/W lawyers can require that to be determined during a jury phase of the trial. And, as it probably wasn't true, makes life less happy. Unclean hands (which would apply if Sony is the only other party) is an equity based defense, which I understand (but IANAL) that as a question of law and equity (not of fact) can be ruled on by the judge directly, without the need to go to Jury trial; slam-bam-thankyeemam, one precedent screwing Sony by saying it is no longer allowed to sue over copyright violation in the US, and one RIAA massive headache. In a question of equity, it doesn't matter that you've violated the law; because Sony did as well, they can't come to the court to ask for redress.
Of course, the judge could (very likely -- 90%?) rule the other way, or postpone a decision until later, or any number of other things. I wouldn't take it as a license to pirate; but if I were brought up on charges for pirating Sony music, you'd be damn sure I'd ask my lawyer about when the best time to pull out that defense might be.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.