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Microsoft Customers Balk at Hard Sell
HangingChad writes "ComputerWorld is running an article about Microsoft's latest type of sales force scare tactic. Apparently Microsoft is using the new title of 'engagement manager' to attempt sales via intimidation. From the article: 'Indeed, according to Microsoft's Web site, the responsibility of someone with Lawless' title of "engagement manager" is to "perform as an integrated member of the account team, drive business development and closing of new services engagements in targeted accounts."'"
What's up with Microsoft? I would recommend Thomas Peters' "In Search of Excellence" for their review. While I wouldn't agree 100% with all of "Search...", there are anecdotes and good evidence around "customer service", and what makes a company excellent.
Creating adversarial relationships, especially ones where Microsoft as much as accuses a customer of piracy (are we sure Microsoft hasn't purchased RIAA yet?) cultivates resentment and long term rot.
And now, Microsoft is creating account team members whose sole function is to instill FUD in their customer, intimidating them into shelling out even more money for services to ensure Microsoft checks and balances are in Microsoft's favor? Sheesh. This is a scam, pure and simple. As the article points out, if Microsoft truly thinks something is amiss "it sics the Business Software Alliance on the company. It doesn't turn the matter over to one of its sales managers".
Maybe Microsoft is doing this to themselves inadvertently, or maybe it's a strategy. From the Fine Article:
Microsoft's "complexities of software licensing" are the seed of irritation. Accusing customers of ripping them off because they can't figure these complex licenses out entirely is the fertilizer to grow that seed into full blown resentment.
If there were any real alternatives to technology in today's Microsoft dominated juggernaut, these "practices" would send customers screaming to the competition. Unfortunately, so far, there aren't.
It may have changed since I last did one, but it used to be that if you had
a Select or Enterprise Agreement with MS, they had the right to audit
spelled out in the contract. The article is mum as to whether or not such
an agreement was in force between MS & AWC, though most companies of any
size have one or both agreements.
So, if MS has a Select or Enterprise Agreement with AWC, then MS is fully
within their right to request an audit and this is a non-news article.
Also, note that Computer World doesn't call this a "sales force scare
tactic" as the headline implies. That term isn't even used in the article.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
RTFA. She was threatening license audits.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Hmm, so there's a shitbag working for Microsoft, which automatically allows us to draw conclusions X, Y, and Z about the entire company. Allllrightythen....*sigh*. Slow news day I guess.
Account manager + Microsoft = inevitable underhanded tactics.
It's just Bill and his minions being their autistic, demanding, clueless selves.
Insert witty sig here.
You don't get that Tru-Coat, you get code oxidation problems. Yah.
Perhaps Microsoft wouldn't seem like such a maniac for asking if they provided the predicates that caused the contact to be made. If they said that someone told us your not legal or you have registered 1000 machines and bought 900 licenses that would make sense - without this much i wouldnt even bother with corrosponding. They have nothing to lose by disclosing their concerns.
I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. (Charles Manson)
The blurb uses a lot of words to say very little.
From TFA, MS is sending their sales people after customers claiming the customer is not in license compliance and they need to send an inspection team in. They are very threatening, implying if the company doesn't comply, they'll face legal prosecution. Once the inspection team gets in, they try to get the customer to buy more products.
I heard this today so it must be one of the up-and-coming buzzwords.
I was thinking that the dress codes must have really slipped at MS when our new sales rep, Paulie, showed up in one of those nylon jogging suits. Bought x4 the normal number of XP cals. Should have them all sold by the time the inventory guy's knee tendons are healed.
In all fairness, if you're going to post articles about MS doing this, you should post about other companies doing this as well.
Sure by saying this I will be labeled as a Microsoft lover and what not... but honestly... I fail to see the problem here.
It would be irresponsible for Microsoft NOT to investigate allegations of piracy at this level as was likely the initial cause of the emails in question. Sure they could turn it over to the BSA, however for all we know this could have been a report to a person who was ill-informed of the proper procedure for relaying reports of piracy and took it upon themselves to investigate.
After such an investigation both parties tend to want the violator to be legit so having access to a sales department (or being within one) does help that make that easier afterwards.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
I've gotten I think 4 or so of these calls now. I answered the 1st one, and it turned out Redmond was trying to force a sale of MAS90 (Microsoft's accounting package) when I told them I worked for a construction company and we use an accounting package designed for Construction (Timberline) they said "we can make it work for a construction company" He got the hint after repeating "Not interested" 3 times.
I've had Reception add "any calls from Microsoft" to the forward straight to voicemail. If the BSA wants to talk to me about my license counts, I'm not one bit worried.
Its underhanded and brilliant at the same time.
Any company that knowingly (or thinks they are) in vialation will quickly signup for whatever universal license agreement that will cover them. Most of the time those people have already looked at the options and know what they need to do.
Unfortuanatly they did not back off when someone called the bluff. Know when to fold um.
Im not justifying it, im just saying its thinking outside the box. And i would guess that its very effective.
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
Well, there is this interesting operating system that I heard about on this website called "slapdash" or something like that. Seems like it scales pretty well and some big computer companies like IBM are playing around with it.
I think it was called 'Linux' - could be wrong about that.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
It's bad enough when Microsoft strong-arms other software vendors into submission as a means of thwarting competition. But when it engages in underhanded tactics to intimidate users in order to land a software deal, we have a very disturbing situation on our hands. And someone needs to have the guts to speak out about it.
This is not uncommon. In fact, I don't know any super large company that would not put pressure on vendors and small companies that rely on the bigger ones. This is the case with so many other businesses and occurs everywhere in all countries. I used to work for a small business (~30 employed) and we had only one big client which will remain nameless, but you have all heard of it. Because they knew we needed them to survive, they delayed wirings and pushed us down to a stupid low cost production model. We basically had our salaries cut every year to survive at all. First they told us that they would find someone else or produce it on their own. We were forced to agree. Next, they stripped us down even further by announcing that they would no longer need our services. We were looking at a feasible bankrupcy here. Shortly after, a company affiliate purchased what was left, fired most of the staff and outsourced it.
I might add that this fit perfectly into the schedule of this company. Our products were updated once every 7 months, and it so happened that our services were not needed just after the last shipment. All in all, they just made us desperate, stripped us down and then bought what was left, acquired the technology and kicked most of us out.
I don't feel bad about this today, but I wish to inform you that this is not an uncommon phenomenon.
Full Tilt
Have they forgotten how effective BRIBING people can be?
Have all the creative people left the company?
Will someone PLEASE put Ballmer back in charge of Sales?
So the intimidation manager is actually named Lawless?
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
note that Computer World doesn't call this a "sales force scare tactic" as the headline implies. That term isn't even used in the article.
The article says:
The attorney, suspecting that Lawless' actions were part of an elaborate sales effort, basically told her to back off.
and it adds up:
The fact is, if Microsoft really has reason to believe that a company is using unlicensed copies of its software, it sics the Business Software Alliance on the company. It doesn't turn the matter over to one of its sales managers.
Telling your sales force to threaten and intimidate customers is a scare tactic designed to sell crap. These idiots think they have the world by the nuts.
The complexities of license compliance and the threat of a BSA raid is one of the best reasons to avoid the non free software offered by M$ and the other BSA member companies.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Nobody expects the MSFT Inquisition!
If Microsoft wants to drive people more toward Linux and other Open-Source software, this is one sure fire way to do it. There whole licensing scam has made them a lot of money but also a lot of created quite a few resentful customers.
If I own a business, I wouldn't want anyone who didn't work for me to touch any of my computers, much less use them, and much less go snooping around on them looking for something to incriminate me or my business. I assume most business owners feel the same way.
Albuquerque PC
I would like to be the first to welcome our new Account Overlords! kekekeke
Sounds a lot like the biotech company I used to work for. When the IT department decided to switch a lot of the servers to linux and thus canceled the site license for MS software, we were immediately "accused" of "licensing incompliance". I believe it took a great deal of haranguing with salespeople to get their agents to back off...
Not sure if your licenses are in order? Get legal.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
After such an investigation both parties tend to want the violator to be legit so having access to a sales department (or being within one) does help that make that easier afterwards.
The problem is she wasn't satisfied with the same evidence the BSA would have been. The BSA would have taken the evidence of the audit, ran off to check it against Microsoft's records, and be done with it. She rejected the evidence and tried to send a SPY into his organization.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
It becomes news when it's an official corporate sales strategy.
*sigh* back to work...
The difference is car salesmen and telemarketers don't promise lawsuits or criminal charges if you don't let them "audit" the PRIVATE information you have on your computers.
And they've been doing this for YEARS. It's nothing new. When we went to Notes from Exchange, it happened. It also hapened when we pased over SQL Server in favor of Oracle on a Windows platform.
Anybody who's been involved in purchasing licenses from Microsoft (or anyone else, for that matter) knows this,
Microsoft has been doing this for years.
... you were out of compliance if:
But not every one of their customers has experienced it. So it is "new" to them.
The reality is that many of Microsoft's customers are "pirates" but only in the sense that they do not keep the kind of records that Microsoft demands when doing an audit.
It isn't enough to have the box the software came in, along with the hologram and the license certificate and so on and on and on.
You also need to be able to PROVE that all of that isn't fake.
And since Microsoft specifically REFUSES to track the license keys and such, the only way to "prove" that the software is legit is to have the original sales receipt from an approved Microsoft vendor.
And that's even if you're not really pirating their software. In past versions, they've made it as easy as possible for companies to pirate their stuff AND as difficult as possible for companies to ensure that they are in compliance without spending lots of hours recording and checking their licenses.
So, even if you had 50 machines and you had bought 50 licenses
#1. Those licenses couldn't be found.
#2. Those licenses weren't matched to receipts from MS vendors.
#3. The machines had been "imaged" with a common image without purchasing the MS license agreement that authorized that.
It's all about driving sales.
"Geez, why not change the title to "Pick on Microsoft AT ALL COSTS." Is there ANYONE that doesn't balk at a hard sell? Why not post something about how horrible car salesmen are? What about telemarketers that don't hang up and keep up the pressure on you even if you're trying to be polite and hang up the phone nicely? So an overzealous saleswoman gave someone the hard sell. So what? Happens all the time in many many different industries."
I've never had a car salesman try to sell me a car by claiming I stole the one I'm driving from his lot...There's a huge gap between a "hard sell" and a baseless accusation... And a baseless accusation aimed at getting money out of someone is generally considered extortion.
Good question. You'd think they would require some kind of court order. Maybe the BSA threatens to sue.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
MAS90, MAS200, and MAS500 are made by Best Software (formerly Sage Software, though originally Best Software).
MS's accounting software is Dynamics. Redmond did not call you to sell a competitor's product.
Furthermore, MAS products are generally not sold directly by Best, they are sold via resellers.
You just happened to have an agressive sales person contact you, that's all. In no way is that trying to "force a sale." There was no implied threat of lawsuit for failing to have licenses or anything like that.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Usually the threat of Litigation. I'm not sure what the penalties for an unlicensed copy of windows xp/office/whatever, but I'm sure its more expensive than 500 bucks a copy.
They never got to that point because AWC's lawyer told them to stick it.
It it works like a BSA raid, M$ will get a court order for an inspection based on some kind of "evidence", which could be anything from an anonymous phone call by a disgruntled employee to some program the secretary installed phoning home. AWC would then have the choice of paying for the inspection or another even more expensive "service" from a list M$ offers. The raid itself would involve massive disruption of work.
This is the appropriate response.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Fact is, if that company WAS out of compliance, they'd be better served to get someone from MS in there to determine if they were or not because that's who is going to sue 'em.
Actually... Some would say that's why Microsoft should be the last choice. If they're going to spend $$ investigating, they're going to do everything they can to recover the cost of the investigation at the very least.
If it were me, I'd prefer a neutral third party.
Fear? The fact that the BSA has a reputation for levying six-digit fines probably plays a role, although how they could legally do that without involvement from the courts is somewhat beyond me.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Good points. I thought the article might be a troll until I saw it was written by CW's editor in chief and then I became puzzled. I mean, it talks about one instance at one company where there was probably a little bit of ego brusing and some pissing contests going on. This was IMHO a personality conflict, not an intimidation crusade by Microsoft. The company owner must be a golf buddy of the author.
Seriously, if there were numerous reports of MS staffers showing up on company's doorsteps toting baseball bats, this would be news. But this situation is not. At my company, we have an Enterprise Agreement with MS which gives them the right to come on sight and audit our usage. We true-up at the end of each year based on what we're actually using and everyone goes home happy.
In this case, the guy in question should have just escalated this with Microsoft's management and tried to speak with someone more reasonable. The fact that he decided to call a lawyer first makes me think he was a little nervous about something he might have overlooked. Just my 2 centavos.
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
After the show finished .. she changed her first name to Janet .. and now she works for Microsft
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Apparently they still haven't figured out who holds the whip. Microsoft is about to educate them.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Fact is... If the company was in compliance they had no reason to be threatened by a sales puke at Microsoft. There is no reason that a vendor can have to force open the door of any company to take a look for evidence of non-compliance. An independant audit of the purchasing records is sufficient to prove compliance if a complaint is filed in a court of law.
As to the incessant Microsoft bashing... Would you rather the customer(s) just roll over on these items? The news never spread? A precedent be set to consider this decent and lawful behaviour? Any corporate employee that has a customer facing position in the company is a direct reflection on the corporation as a whole. Those sales pitches are scripted and required by management. If the leadership is evil then the corporate entity is evil. The only way to fight this kind of garbage is through education of the masses. If you don't care then don't read the article. This information is important to those that are fighting for a level playing field and more consumer choice in the marketplace. Simply because it isn't important to you doesn't mean it should be surpressed or ignored.
Imagine that they invited the consultant over, and on his arrival, took him into the *server* room which happens to be in the basement, and locked him up. Then get back to lawless saying the consultant never arrived. After how many consultants do you think M$ will give up?
Or cut a deal with the consultant and claim to have an excessive number of licenses that can be sold in the secondary market unless a refund is provided.
What, are you new here? No, by your slashdot ID, I'd say you've been around long enough to know this site has an anti Microsoft bias.
But all bias aside, this is a pretty egregious sales tactic. They are basically threatening their customers. I mean, when's the last time you heard of a used car salesman saying something like, "Well, the fromitz on your car is expired and the McPhearson Valve looks like it's ready to blow. You'd better leave it in our shop so we can see what else is wrong with it. We really can't let you drive that thing outta here, you'd better buy this new Vista Cruiser."
Used car salesmen can be seedy, but this takes the cake. No amount of excuses and afronted rhetoric from Microsoft flacks and fanboys will change the fact that this is far far worse than we typically see in the sleaziest of legitimate professions. It is more on par with the tactics of organized crime.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
All good but you forgot the best line out of the movie, especially for any of us that have done those kinds of sales.
"A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Closing. Always be closing, always be closing". -Blake
She rejected the evidence and tried to send a SPY into his organization.
OK, but reading the article, I kept thinking to myself, "Who takes these kinds of jobs, and why do they try so hard at them?"
Are these people on commission or are they just naturally assholes and like it that way?
Ahh, the lovely ironies of the world.
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
Although given the M$ icon here at /., perhaps:
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."
is more in order.
Yet again, I can add another reason as to why I don't want MS in the gaming market. I mention this because MS is pushing Vista as the next best thing since sliced bread for gaming (if you haven't heard their nutjob sales reps going "DIRECT X 10 WOOOO!", just do a google search), and I'm sure they'll try to hook it up with the 360. This might be a little off-topic, but they and their "business" tactics need to be kept as far away from the still young gaming industry. You know that as soon as they get a foothold, they'll stop developement and real innovation and use the same strong-arm intimidation to keep developers and distributors in tow. Want to improve the image of games as an art form? Too bad, MS is pushing the same shit in HALO 12.
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
Janet prefers to communicate in person and gets frustrated when people talk down to her:
https://portfolio.du.edu/pc/port?portfolio=jlawle
Hmmm, I think google let me down this time...
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
... I believe I've had contact with these jerks - I got a call from someone at MS stating that "They would like to help me ensure that we have the software we need for an organization our size." which quickly devolved into "send us copies of all your license certificates, then we'll send someone out to help check these against all your machines." (apparently they've got some tools for this?)
When nicely told to stick it, the final word from this ass was (and I quote) "How confident are you that you have everything in order?"
I'd really hate for something to happen to your nice store there, Mister. You sure you don't want to hire us to make sure nothing gets broken?
It's entirely possible that this was simply the act of one stupid account manager who is very aggressive and should probably be fired. People often make the mistake of assuming that [giant organization] is a unified organism with a singular purpose. The reality is that every organization is made up of individuals, each of whom has their own distinct desires and ambitions, and personality traits. It's not at all unusual for a sales manager to say something really, really stupid, as probably every person here can confirm.
Rex is 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Chances are option #2- just like when the guy who wrote "Thank you for not smoking" asked the lobbyist why she did what she did "It's a way to pay the mortgage". Pretty bad that we're in a culture where there are so few jobs that those who are good at sales have to work on commission and be total assholes- but that's what you get for outsourcing almost everything else a person can do to earn a living. They take the job because they have to- they're paid on commission to convince them to set asside their ethics for bigger sales.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
These has been a common tactic for years. I have trained all my higher-ups to ignore any offers to review licenses. Companies will call the higherups and tell them they can potentially save money by reviewing their licenses and getting into a new type of license program. Vendors are constantly switching license schemes e.g. network connections, to MIPS, to number of processors, to number of dual core processors, to number of instances.
Database vendors like Oracle also like to come in and do reviews/audits so they can help you save money and (sic) purchase the optimal license agreement. In reality, you already have the best license deal and the vendor wants to kill it and replace it with one that costs more.
We learned long ago that these sales weenies are just fishing for anyone who will talk to them. If you ignore them, they will go bug someone naive enough to talk with them. They have no legal authority and are, dare I say sharks, trying to rewrite your license agreement to get you to fork over more cash.
Stay legal on all your licensing and simply factor licenses into the purchase price of every machine. If you know that you purchase licenses with every machine and keep your license count current for upgrades and maintenance, the matter will take care of itself.
Note, young inexperienced managers will fall for the "cost savings" sales pitch quite often since they want to be perceived as doing something for the business. If they are foolish enough to start licensing conversations, make sure that you explain how much time and cost the audit process with take. Ask who is going to pay for the labor to install auditing software. Explain that vendors are not allowed access to servers and PCs. Ask them who is going to assume the security risk for any audit software and who will take responsibility if it causes problems in your production environment. After all, I am sure that all audit software is bulletproof and well written. Itemize all the costs and risks then make sure your manager's manager and/or customer see this risk/cost assessment.
My advice: Just ignore them and they will go away AND put your grumpiest and savviest technical manager in charge of any license renewals.
You've been reading BOFH I see....
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Wow... I didn't realize that you needed a special license to be able to setup a standard image as long as you had the right number of licenses.
That's wrong and they don't. It's been easy enough to escape their "product" for six year, as proved by Ball Guitar Strings, GM, Lowes and many others. Even if it was difficult to get away, it's stupid to insult and harass your customers. You should not make customers angry enough to use abacuses when there are dozens of firms ready to replace your product with something that's cheaper and easier.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I have worked for several software companies, large to small. Any large company I have worked for has people who do this. Their goal is to get companies to purchase licensing to overcover in many cases the application.
Anybody here claiming MS created this, or pioneered it, or is even the worst at it, doesn't know the software industry and has never met many mainframe software salespeople.
Just MHO and I could be Crazy... WHich would also explain my being around here.
I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
Trolled to death. Kind of like Slashdot in general.
The EULA is probably the most important MS innovation.
It's one thing to have some sales sleaze saying, "Dat's a nice server youse got there... shame if anything should happen to it," and quite another to have the top sales maniac saying, "I'm going to fucking KILL YOU!" and throwing chairs at your server.
Off-topic digression*:
If anyone out there likes making game hacks, someone write up "Ballmer Kong". The Ball-ape stands at the top, lobbing chairs down the scaffolding, while your character, a penguin, jumps over the chairs, or blows them up by throwing apples at them.
*Yes, I know; that's a superfluous redundancy.
Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
I wonder if they are doing this to any of the poor saps who were hoodwinked into the Software Assurance Subscription program 5 years ago.
s p
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1681636,00.a
Let's see -how many OS upgrades would I have gotten in the 5 years since? 2 -if you count XP SP1 and SP2.
Homer: an extended service warranty? how can I go wrong!
. . . used car salesmen.
Any time there's money to be had, people are going to intimidate other people. There are too many greedy fucks in the world, and Microsoft does not have a monopoly on greedy fucks.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Not irony. Irony is a contradiction of meanings or expectations. This is merely a humorous coincidence.
Unpleasantries.
I think all the response this tactic deserves is an icy "If you want to discuss license compliance, let me transfer you to our legal department where someone can assist you.". Then you do just that, making sure your lawyer knows before the MS rep can talk that the rep has stated or implied that you lack licenses for some software.
Of course, also make sure you've got original media and license certificats and keys for every copy of software you've got installed, or relevant current license agreement documentation covering the installed software. Remember that there's what MS might like you to have to produce, then there's what you legally have to or should be able to produce, and the two aren't neccesarily identical.
She called from Microsoft and her name was "Nicole." A very pleasant sounding woman.
She wanted to "help" me with our software licensing. I indicated that we had migrated most of our servers to Linux, files to Samba, and our databases to MySQL. We chuckled about this a bit and went our separate ways. Little did I know...
The following week I received a followup call, and another the next. "How many employees do you have?" they asked. "We can help you get a better price with another licensing program."
The last call was from the anti-piracy division, and now we've been audited twice since the call from "Nicole." Thankfully we've been on top of our licensing, but this has only increased our desire to erase anything with the Microsoft brand from our network. I've also migrated many other systems from Microsoft since, and will continue to work against them. A company that does retaliatory audits won't get any more of my business, and as little business from my sphere of influence as possible.
When I saw this article title in the RSS feed, I figured it was about Microsoft trying to sell their Software Assurance program again after everyone who bought it last time got zilch for their investment.
Imagine my surprise when it was completely unrelated.
First of all, have you seen the little icon for microsoft related articles? Sure, there's a heavy bias here, but at least it's no secret. Secondly, the article seems to indicate that the behavior of Janet Lawless goes far above and beyond the scope of a "hard sell." In fact, in the excerpts quoted in the article, I don't see the word "sell" anywhere (go ahead, control-f it). And with an obfuscated title like "engagement manager," I doubt the CIO of AWC had any idea he was talking to a member of the sales team (In fact, the article seems to indicate that it was the attorney who caught on first). At least with a car salesman, you know that a) he probably has a quota to fill and b) his salary is dependent on commission from his sales.
Suffice it to say that the difference between the "hard sell" and deliberately misleading and *threatening* behavior is quite substantial. Elaborate sales scheme doesn't even begin to describe it - it's far more analagous to a mafia-esque "protection" scheme. I mean really, how many car salesmen do you know that come out of the woodwork and tell you they believe that your car doesn't meet EPA standards and that you should bring it to the dealership to be "inspected" - so that they can sell you a new one?
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
Anyone else notice how appropriate the engagement manager's name is!
This is not, even remotely, "hard sell". This is "use scare tactics and some percentage of our customers will just roll over and throw money at us to kee the 'bad thing' away". It fargin' stinks, this should be looked into by appropriate authorities.
Let me recall...
.... (began tuning out)
MS Drone: "What accounting software do you use?"
Me: *sales call* "Timberline"
Drone: *starts sounding like Charlie Brown's teacher*
Me: "Not interested, thank you for the call"
Drone: *starts sounding like Charlie Brown's teacher, but speaking a bit faster*
Me: "Still not interested, thank you for the call"
Drone: "Are you interested in CRM?"
Me: "I have plenty of software upgrade initiatives planned for this year, I'll call if I need something..." (Hang Up)
You're right, it wasn't MAS90....and had I been paying the least bit of attention, I would have recalled this....thank you for correcting my gaffe.
My experience with Microsoft marketing has been pretty bad so far.
.NET promotion thing they were doing for students. We were promised a free copy of Visual Studio 7 if we attended, which I thought sounded pretty good and worth sitting through some ads for. After two hours of being marketed to, sitting through tons of stuff that really didn't interest me much (for example advertising their new tablet PC for 45 minutes when it was supposed to be an information session on .NET), what happens? They get up there and have the gall to announce that, "Oh, sorry, the VS.NET CDs weren't ready, so we don't have any to give you... but we'll send them to you." I wrote my address, never received anythign.. (after emailing them even)
My first-hand impression is that they will do anything including lie to your face to get you to listen to their latest gimmick.
This is totally aside from the fact that I don't particularly like their software. I admit that because of this fact I'm probably biased, but my ACTUAL experience directly with the people is pretty bad too, so it totally doesn't help the case.
Anyways, first thing that happened: As a student, I attended a
Another thing that happened: I attended a conference on real-time computing. I thought I'd check out a talk called "Choosing a real-time operating system". I figured it would be an interesting overview on all the options out there (and there are a lot of interesting ones!), but after I got in there and they closed to door: "Hi, so this is an information session on how to choose a Microsoft real-time Operating System." Turned out it was for choosing between CE and XP. What a load of shit.. I was really pissed.
So all in all, my impression is not at all good. They run their company like jerks, and their sales reps are jerks.
Frankly I think some of their products are pretty good. A lot of their development utilities are really nice. XP works pretty well for it's target audience. But damn... stop lying to me and trying to trick me. It's not cool.
Rotten Effort
Don Tennant Today's Top Stories or Other IT Management Stories
May 08, 2006 (Computerworld) -- It's bad enough when Microsoft strong-arms other software vendors into submission as a means of thwarting competition. But when it engages in underhanded tactics to intimidate users in order to land a software deal, we have a very disturbing situation on our hands. And someone needs to have the guts to speak out about it.
Fortunately, someone has. Last week, Dale Frantz, CIO at Auto Warehousing Co., brought to my attention an alarming business practice that shows Microsoft at its shoddy and arrogant worst.
AWC was contacted several weeks ago by Janet Lawless, a software asset management engagement manager at Microsoft, who claimed that "a preliminary review of [AWC's software licensing] information indicates that your company may not be licensed properly." Lawless urged AWC to "understand that the potential inconsistency in licensing is an urgent matter and needs immediate attention." She wanted to send a consultant to AWC to conduct an inventory of its installed software.
Frantz was stunned. He says he always errs on the side of caution with respect to software licenses. He does regular audits and maintains extensive records of purchases, license keys and registration codes. Frantz had no doubt that he was 100% compliant. When he told Lawless that, she ratcheted up the threatening tone of her e-mail correspondence.
"Simply commenting on your licensing environment does not address our concerns in a tangible, proven manner," she wrote. "We continue to believe that Auto Warehousing may not be licensed properly. Since this is a compliance issue, I am obligated to notify an officer of Auto Warehousing of the situation and the significant risk your organization may be subject to by not resolving this situation in a timely manner."
At that point, Frantz got his corporate attorney involved. The attorney suggested that an olive branch be proffered to avoid legal action, so Frantz offered to send Lawless detailed records of all purchases of Microsoft software in the past five years. But Lawless blew that off as well. She seemed determined to get a consultant into the IT bowels of AWC.
"Thank you for your offer to send your purchase records to me," she wrote, "however our Software Asset Management (SAM) program is the only unbiased way to create an accurate baseline and resolve this matter."
That did it. Frantz informed Lawless that he wasn't going to waste anymore time with her, and he left the matter with his attorney. The attorney, suspecting that Lawless' actions were part of an elaborate sales effort, basically told her to back off.
Indeed, according to Microsoft's Web site, the responsibility of someone with Lawless' title of "engagement manager" is to "perform as an integrated member of the account team, drive business development and closing of new services engagements in targeted accounts." So why was someone in a sales position leaning so hard on AWC about a supposed licensing compliance concern?
When I phoned Lawless to find out, she referred me to Microsoft's PR machine. The responses I got through that channel stressed that Microsoft's aim is to help customers navigate the complexities of software licensing and that one of the roles of engagement managers is to assist in that effort by informing customers of a potential licensing risk. I was told to attribute the responses to Lawless.
The fact is, if Microsoft really has reason to believe that a company is using unlicensed copies of its software, it sics the Business Software Alliance on the company. It doesn't turn the matter over to one of its sales managers.
The folks at Microsoft should have done their homework. They would have realized that trying to intimidate Dale Frantz would be a fruitless effort. And what a rotten fruitless effort it was.
Balmer: What's your name?
Gates: FUCK YOU, that's my name!! You know why, Mister? 'Cause you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight, I drove a eighty thousand dollar BMW. That's my name!! And your name is "you're wanting." And you can't play in a man's game. You can't close them. (at a near whisper) And you go home and tell your wife your troubles. Because only one thing counts in this life! Get them to sign on the line which is dotted! You hear me, you fucking faggots?
(Gates flips over a blackboard which has two sets of letters on it: ABC, and AIDA.)
Gates: A-B-C. A-always, B-be, C-closing. Always be closing! Always be closing!! A-I-D-A. Attention, interest, decision, action. Attention -- do I have your attention? Interest -- are you interested? I know you are because it's fuck or walk. You close or you hit the bricks! Decision -- have you made your decision for Christ?!! And action. A-I-D-A; get out there!! You got the prospects comin' in; you think they came in to get out of the rain? Guy doesn't walk on the lot unless he wants to buy. Sitting out there waiting to give you their money! Are you gonna take it? Are you man enough to take it? What's the problem pal? You. Balmer.
Balmer: You're such a hero, you're so rich. Why you coming down here and waste your time on a bunch of bums?
(Gates sits and takes off his gold watch)
Blake: You see this watch? You see this watch?
Balmer: Yeah.
Gates: That watch cost more than your car. I made $970,000,000 last year. How much you make? You see, pal, that's who I am. And you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father? Fuck you -- go home and play with your kids!! You wanna work here? Close!! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can't take this -- how can you take the abuse you get on a sit?! You don't like it -- leave. I can go out there tonight with the materials you got, make myself fifty thousand dollars! Tonight! In two hours! Can you? Can you? Go and do likewise! A-I-D-A!! Get mad! You sons of bitches! Get mad!! You know what it takes to sell software?
(He pulls something out of his briefcase)
Gates: It takes brass balls to sell software.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
If you want pro-Microsoft or "unbiased" articles, then don't go to a website that advocates open source software. This is after all Slashdot, *not* Cee Colon Backslash Dot.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
They get a sales manager to lean on them? Not an attorney?
balk at hard sales? intellectually, you'd think so, BUT IT ISN'T TRUE. these kinds of people get these jobs BECAUSE THEY GET PEOPLE TO BUY MORE STUFF!
it is true!
everyone says they hate the hard sell, but a significant majority of folks actually buy more based on the hard sell.
for guys like me - it sucks.
but reality is reality, people. these sales companies put in the guys who get the job done - just like car dealerships and real estate agents.
you may not like these people, BUT YOU DO BUY FROM THEM MORE THAN YOU BUY FROM OTHER PEOPLE.
i worked in real estate for a short while and the slimiest guy around got all the business. he was an incredible short term manipulator - but at the end of the day, he'd throw his clients under the bus for a payday.
i actually tried to offer a service to my clients. no pressure - just information and advise.
he outsoled me 40-1 in his first year. and yes, he'd use lines like "you better make an offer now, this property is gonna go fact. i'm getting offers up the b*tt." it was a total lie, but indiciative of the tactics he used to manipulate people with his hard sell.
the irony is that his good friend and his brother and law didn't buy / sell their homes with him b/c he's such an *ss.
*ss or not, after a 40-1 beat down, i *know* what makes people buy and respect coupled with low / no pressure sales doesn't do it. oh, yeah, i put lots of mileage on my car taking people around who couoldn't make up their mind.
yeah, high pressure sales DOMINATES b/c it works. PERIOD.
This happens with risky closed-source, proprietary software. If you are 100% open source, you can tell them to fuck off. If they still come after you, shoot up their next shareholders' meeting.
Andy Out!
So much for turning to commercially licensed closed source software as a way to reduce your exposure to IP legal threats.
If you are a "good customer" of Microsoft's then you have a LOT of time / effort / data invested in their products. Migrating to anything else is VERY FUCKING EXPENSIVE. Not just in money, but in time and effort and all the tiny incompatibilities that will result in your users asking what the fuck you were thinking when you decided to drop Microsoft.
So the easiest source of revenue is for Microsoft to "audit" their "good customers" and hit them with a bill for the most common errors that IT departments make.That's not uncommon.
The problem is that Microsoft is threatening those customers who DO care and DO spend the time and money to stay legit.
AND
Microsoft is NOT putting any time / effort / money into providing any easy way for their "good customers" to track their licenses (or even validate that a license is legit).
This is Microsoft we're talking about. They have BILLIONS of dollars. They have very smart people. They should be able to work up a system where I can enter each and every license I have and validate that it is legit and that it is mine.
But they aren't interested in that. That approach would cost them money to implement and it would result in fewer sales because "good customers" would already have had Microsoft approve their licenses.
And that is why this whole situation is so fucked up. It's all about Microsoft making the situation as difficult as possible so they can wring every last dollar from it.
Here's an example:
You buy 50 workstations from Dell. Each comes with WinXP.
You then buy a retail version of WinXP. That's 51 licenses for 50 boxes.
You image one box using the full retail license and dump that image on the other 49.
You're out of compliance because Microsoft licensed Dell to only license each copy of WinXP to a specific machine. The licenses are non-transferable. You've just "pirated" 49 copies of WinXP. That's 49 licenses at $200 retail
And that's if you're 100% legit on 50 machines. And provided that you can "prove" that that 1 retail copy wasn't also "stolen".
The only MS application software that's close to indispensible is Office, and that runs just fine on Mac OS X.
So that leaves Windows and non-Microsoft software that needs it.
You already want to avoid Windows for your servers, right? If you don't, consider it... replacing a dozen Windows boxes with a single UNIX box might not make the UNIX installed base numbers look all that much better, but Microsoft is smart enough to know that's not the bottom line.
Depending on what you're currently using, it might be expensive to find alternatives that don't have the Windows dependencies. It might not be possible. But I'll bet there's Microsoft licenses you have that you can afford to shed. So when Mr. Lawless calls you can say "Oh, hi, after reading about you we switched out data center over to Solaris and Linux, and we're doing a Mac rollout to the desktop next week. Can we have a refund on the remaining time on the 40% of our existing licenses we no longer need...?"
MAS90, MAS200, and MAS500 are made by Best Software (formerly Sage Software, though originally Best Software).
Actually, it was originally made by State of the Art Software, who was bought by Sage software (a UK company), who then also bought Best Software and decided to use the Best name for their US operations.
Not that I expect anyone to care...
> This happens just like this when someone, usually from within the company, notifies
> Microsoft they thing software piracy is occuring. SOftware piracy is illegal. PERIOD.
Bullshit. This is what happens when MS wants to extort money from innocent people. What's worse, MS has the money to bribe the politicians so that peaceful change is impossible. Check what JFK said is inevitable when peaceful change is impossible.
Andy Out!
The blurb on slashdot, is not very telling and about the worst part of the article. If you read the article you will see a clear case of Microsoft trying to extort a company into paying for their professional services. The best line is where MS claims this is the only unbiased way to resolve the issue. The extortion is clearly criminal. if there are people who actually bought into this act, it would be a good time to look in Criminal and Civil RICO.
Well, check what happened to JFK...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
This has nothing to do with piracy. I can't see a single boat there.
Snide comments and the FUD about "software 'piracy'" aside, when someone from within the company rats on his former employer, the BSA is at your doorstep. Not some sales manager.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Er, there are other countries in the world besides the US.
:v)
Though to concede some of your point, it's mostly these that seem to be kicking the Microsoft habit.
Vik
Back in the 1930s, if you wanted to get a mafia boss with a squeaky clean file behind bars, sick the IRS on him. It's almost impossible to get ALL your tax records perfectly legal, so if you can't get them any other way, that's the way to go.
Today, if you want your competitor gone, sick the BSA on them. I bet my rear that NOT A SINGLE COMPANY that uses MS products got all their bases covered. With different licensing models and licensing terms, it's virtually impossible to get everything perfectly licensed.
Switch to OSS and you can simply give 'em the finger if they decide to show up at your door.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
When dealing with MS scare tactics a lawyer should be your first call. This guy was entirely correct in doing that. If MS had a real beef with him they would send specific instructions for him to follow. Then the lawyer would get with him and balance the risks. There in lies the first line of defense.. the lawyer will ask for specific licenses that allow inspection and specific software in question. If MS can't come up with that the lawyer will GTH them.
I pick #1 and #2. These sales sharks are very predatory assholes and they are on commission - they are pros and will do and say ANYTHING to make a sale, including getting people fired because they wouldn't look at the shark's product. Top performing sales sharks (i.e., the biggest assholes) typically get promoted and eventually end up in the executive ranks in companies. I also believe that these sharks are the assholes in the expensive cars that go around cutting people off on the Beltway.
In the article, the Microsoft rep didn't even have any evidence that the guy had rolled out an image (and there is no "wrong" about the image, it is pure license bullshit).
But the Microsoft rep seemed to trying tactics that would seem to qualify as "seriously squeezed".
But if your opinion is that Microsoft would not try that, that's great.You might want to pay attention to that "No nitpicking over keys or certificates".
In other words, that company was letting Microsoft fuck them out of additional licensing revenue and Microsoft was returning the favour by not fucking them as hard as they could have fucked them (and inviting all Microsoft's friends to fuck them, too).
Yeah, that's great. Microsoft is actually being nice when they ass rape you without lube because they could be ass raping you with sandpaper or lemon juice or sandpaper and lemon juice and salt!
Thanks, but I think I'll maintain my anal sovereignty. If Microsoft wants a shot at my ass, they're going to have to get a search warrant and I already know all their tricks.
...where MS tried to force IT shops to upgrade sooner? They declared that upgrade pricing would be valid for six months only, after which shops that hadn't upgraded would pay full boat. IT managers pretty much told them to go to hell. It was the best thing to happen for Linux as a server platform in corporations all at once since the 2.6 kernel release. I recall a quote from on manager saying, "This would give the control over millions of dollars of my budget -- to be spent within a few months of whenever they demand it. That's just not going to happen."
As I recall, Microsoft backed off that stance almost immedately but it was a bit late. They woke up a large number of shops to their "single source vulnerability".
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
Loveless has a better ring. M$ Agent Loveless is the EULA enforcer.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Ha...Ha!!!!
Thank you, Nelson. Your wisdom spans the ages.
You give them an inch, they will always go for the mile. Well, good thing they had lawyers. It is always good to fight sleaze with sleaze.
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
IANAL, but this sounds like racketeering to me and it seems to fit the definition:
The act of engaging in criminal activity as a structured group is referred to in the U.S. as racketeering.
M$: We need to check your license with our auditing software.
IT Guy: Here's all of of licenses and the machines they are installed on.
M$: No, we need to run the audit to see how much software you're pirating.
IT Guy: We're not pirating anything! Our records are accurate!
M$: Either you let us inventory your systems or we break your computers and then your legs.
Isn't RICO applicable here?
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
Janet Lawless is nothing more than a sleazy sales bitch. I doubt that her tactics are institutionalized at Microsoft. I'd bet that if this was followed up on we'd find that Miss Lawless is now unemployed. We all know that many (not all) IT sales people are scum and most are stupid too and are no better than used car sales people.
Meet the DMCA. If the BSA has "evidence" of your wrongdoing, you get to pay for the audit and the "violated" company's legal bills. See here for a reference story and what to do about this kind of extortion. Essentially, you are screwed and have to pay the fines demanded without a fight. A fight would cost the average company half a million dollars, more if you include the cost of business disruption.
Software contracts and licenses are not normal contracts. The "agreement" between you and a non free software company is that you are so greatfull for the software that you will do as you are told.
Treating customers like this, Microsoft has completely lost it.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This title is very common with Indian IT companies. So is Microsoft now copying their business model ?
I think it speaks volumes when microsoft has to resort to tactics similar to the mpaa and riaa - guilty until proven not guilty.
I don't know much about their products since I don't use them and have no plans to but I wonder about their products when they have to resort to these tactics.
Shouldn't the product sell itself?
I use nothing but linux and it is really really easy to install as long as you do your homework and buy hardware that is compatible - but that is any os.
To those businesses tired of being strong armed by software vendors I suggest you really try linux. It is robust and stable operating system and has all the applications you will ever need. No more trips to the local computer store to buy the 10.00 special on software. You will have all the software you will ever need or want. And you will be able to get your work done and run your business instead of counting licenses.
The three or four I would recommend trying are Ubuntu, Suse, Centos and or Fedora, and Mandriva.
go ahead and give them try they will just work and all it will cost you is a little time but your business will be better off in the long run and you will get the time back easily in money saved by license fees.
If I was a business owner or IT manager, I would have said thanks for the notification and inform them I will be switching to Linux this week. I hate strong arm tactics and such tactics will never work with me.
\
I like Linux, I'm using linux right now.
But, for most businesses, it's no alternative to windows.
Linux is good OS, but it doesn't run the apps that most businesses need. FYI: there are more apps than just wordprocessors and web-browsers. For just one very small example: UPS worldship software, used my many businesses, doesn't run on Linux.
Tons of specialized proprietary software doesn't run on Linux. I recently installed some specialized software for an auto-body shop. And guess what? It only runs on windows.
Sure Linux is fast, secure, stable, and inexpensive. But nobody runs an OS just to run an OS: it's all about the apps.
Yeah, Microsoft did something that wasn't a crime one time. Therefore the things they did at other times weren't crimes either. Probably. Give them a break. You suck. Everybody hates you for hating Microsoft so much.
So I won't be at fault if I tag this article as 'blackmail, intimidation, racketeering'?
Ignore this signature. By order.
Managers.
Forget "engagement management". It looks more like "battle commander."
How long before MS battle commanders like Lawless are bucking up their troops, after the hardest engagements, with dismissive comments like, "To save the customer, it was neccessary to destroy the customer."?
Rally the peasants! We must storm the gates of MS with flailing keyboards and mice! (Oh, damn! I've got wireless gear!)
Then to be more true to its roots, should /. become ./ ?
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
This phrase from the article highlights the differences between MS and OSS.
Microsoft makes the software easy to use and makes licensing difficult.
Open Source software makes the licensing easy to use and makes the software difficult.
The battle that Microsoft has won is not the desktop, it's the support group. No, I don't mean MS support, I mean your desktop support group. Companies have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a tech support staff to keep all of those computers working. They are not about to swtich to a new OS (or an old one in the case of Linux) and have to retrain their entire support staff.
That's the battle MS has won. And the number of people trained to support Microsoft on the Desktop is growing every day. Linux (or OS X for that matter) will have to make a much much bigger dent before it can overcome that hurdle. And forget about saying that OS X doesn't require tech support. That argument doesn't hold up in a real business. When things break, you don't want the VP of Marketing fixing his own system.
-- Should there be smoke coming out of my CPU?
The irony here is that Best software owns Timberline too.
Chances are option #2- just like when the guy who wrote "Thank you for not smoking" asked the lobbyist why she did what she did "It's a way to pay the mortgage"...
The correct way to deal with this situation is to burn her house down, preferably with an unextinguished cigarette butt. Make sure she's not home, though; she can't appreciate the irony if she's dead.
I agree... to a point. I'll admit that I recently have been moving to Ubuntu. I quite like it, by the way.
However, I'm a bit of a hack. So, I went off to install a database engine that I have some experience with (iAnywhere ASA). Now, I'm not much on Linux... I'm just switching. So, I download the tar file. Hmmm.. read the setup. It's a shell file. Should I run it? How do I run it? Will it screw something up? Let me just cut to the chase... I never got it working (it wasn't too high on my priority list).
Linux really needs a universal installation engine. I LOVE repositories. I LOVE lots of things about Ubuntu (much better than Suse, imho). I had to search around and figure out how to get this tar converted to a deb then installed.... What a mess! Once I got it "installed" (probably incorrectly) it wasn't able to load its plug-ins in the manager (Sybase Central).
On a positive note, I learned a few things (that's what makes Linux fun). On a negative note, I doubt many of my colleagues (developers in a windows shop) could have figured it out.
So, as long as it's in a repository... yes. I agree. When it's not... hmmm. No. I disagree.
The problem seems to be that in order to comprehend true irony, you have to have two different ideas in your head at the same time. That's not going to happen to your typical MTV drone. Not that the OP is an MTV drone...
argumentum ad fallacium: Fallacy of defining a fallacy which allows one to dismiss the argument in question.
Ya buddy! I got microsoft code in here! Gimme some time and I'll chuck that out. Call me back in a weeks time. :)
how do they get it wrong every time?
What else is new? I understand the next time I boot the Windows partition on this box, & it tries to get security updates, I will be challenged to prove that XP is genuine. Well, it came on the machine from HP. What the fork does MS want? Think I'll burn the FreeBSD 6.1 install DVD for AMD64, first. I think FreeBSD would be happy to be where the XP & recovery partitions are. Then I can upgrade the Breezy patition to Dapper. F' 'em. MS gives me the creeps.
If you want your life to be different, live it differently.
My experience has been more that they don't realize that things can be different.
"Microsoft" is a synonym for computers for them, since they have never seen a computer with a different operating system. They don't remember "Atari" or "Amiga" (now that makes me feel old), and have never touched a Mac or a PC running Linux. So they assume that things must be the same there, too.
Colleagues at work stare at me when I tell them that neither my Apples nor Gentoos have any virus protection at all, that I don't have to reboot it for every little thing, that I can plug my camera into my iBook and it just works. For them, the Windows way is the way all computers work.
What has really opened their eyes is Firefox. It is so much better than IE in all respects that those computers that don't have it installed are being avoided. Firefox shows people that things can be different, that there is a life without Microsoft, and that this life can be pretty good. Slashdot readers need to remember that not everybody has a job where computer literacy is high. Lots of people out there just suffer through Microsoft in quiet desperation, never guessing that things could be different.
ian
And Thunderbird, I think. And any experience with a recent Mac. I've been a Microsoft sofware specialist for decades, including a long time as an Exchange Server product specialist. At home we use Firefox, and I've just switched from Outlook to Thunderbird because it just works better. It ain't perfect, but it's not Outlook and it's not Notes (which I will continue to vilify at any opportunity -- flame me if you wish, I'm immune to Notes pash).
Wife has an iMac G5 and a G4 Powerbook, as well as her work PC at home. It took her all of 10 seconds to connect both Macs to our home 802.11G LAN and connect to the Internet (not counting the phone call to me for the password) as opposed to several hours fiddling with the network I set up for our small army of XP Pro boxes, and I know networks.
So I'd say, get some form of applications parity on Linux or Mac platforms, get it known, get it advertised, and other Microsoft die-hards like myself will switch in a hot minute. Trust me, I'd rather change TV channels with Channelocks at the back panel than muck with computers at home; I get enough of that at work. I honestly think it wouldn't take too many more cross-platform apps to bring other folks into line. People find out.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Now there's something I do have to weigh in on!
What I really want is some way to share my calender, contacts, tasks etc. through my mail client in the same way Outlook does against Exchange Server. I hate the fact that despite IMAP being able to offer me the same folder view of my mail on lots of different machines (and I routinely use 3 or more at home before I even get to work), I have to keep contacts and calenders in sync because Thunderbird stores them locally.
No - I don't want a magic "sync" button. I want the whole thing seamlessly stored on the server along with my mail store. This is the single compelling feature of Outlook/Exchange for me and I really, really, really don't want to be forced down that road for a home network.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Firefox is an excellent example of things being better in OSS, but it's because it offers improved functionality with a better end-user experience right out of the box. If more OSS apps paid this much attention to the out-of-box experience and user interface then Microsoft would die in a hot second.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
What other company sells a windows-compatible OS that you don't have a right to copy for any number of other machines?
(No not Apple, pretty close but they don't run on x86 machines... uh...)
You obviously didn't read the article because the Microsoft saleswoman wasn't even interested in licensing information (and why should she? She gets a bonus for sales, not for proving legitimate software).
It's a common misconception that a complete open source consumer desktop is all that's needed for businesses to ditch all their current proprietary software. The enterprise, on the other hand, really needs easy-to-use tools for managing large networks of users, printers, computers.
One major problem is a lack of a directory service on par with Microsoft's Active Directory--a directory service that's seamlessly integrated into just about everything: authentication & public key management, printing, desktop settings, package management, filesystem access control and contact lists in IM and e-mail. (Novell's eDirectory is a proprietary product, and does not count as open source.) Right now, there are many individual components--OpenLDAP, PAM, NFS4, POSIX ACLs, GConf and Evolution--which are more or less complete in themselves, but are poorly-integrated with each other. Getting them to work in concert with the directory service as glue is fiddly, frustrating and in many cases, would involve substantial amounts of coding.
Also needed is groupware on par with Exchange Server (Novell's Groupwise does not count because it's not open source.) that can seamlessly integrate scheduling, contact management, backup and archival, search, IMAP/POP access, load-balancing & replication and server-side mail filtering. Again, there are a whole lot of individual open source components which have to be stitched tediously together to get anywhere near the same functionality.
Just spouting off an idea that I had 5 minutes ago. Feel free to use for target practice.
I fully agree with the parent in that Linux/open source is not an alternative for most companies. Maybe we could form an open "support" community to provide collaborative volunteer tech support to businesses willing to deploy an open source solution in their shops? Sure, there are open source solutions to 90% of commercial apps, and customer demand could easily make it 100%. However, an eclectic collection of point applications with a labor intensive deployment requirement and a painful switch for the user base isn't a "solution". If there were an out of the box OS, Office, e-mail, messaging and SUPPORT package, it would be a much more realistic alternative.
Anyone willing to donate some time for tech support in addition to or as a substitute for your code development efforts?
Episode 14
"Have you read the memo from those software people?" the Boss asks, tapping some paper on my desk.
"It's in my In Tray, I just haven't got round to reading it yet."
"It's on your DESK!"
"Yes, and my desk is my In Tray."
>Sigh< "Well can you read it now please?"
"Sure."
"RIGHT now please?"
"It's that urgent?"
"It wasn't two weeks ago when I put it.. on your.. In Tray, but it's urgent now."
"Why?"
"Because it's a special offer which expires today and they've just rung me about it and are going to call back in 10 minutes."
"Oh really. Well how's about we have a gander at it then while we wander back to your office for the call.. Blah, blah, secret weapon, blah, blah German spies, blah, blah."
"What the hell are you reading?" the Boss blurts, snatching the paper off me. "Secret weapons!?"
"It's just something I say to myself when wading through weasel words," I say, wresting the paper back from the Boss.
"What does it mean?"
"It means they're trying to shaft us."
"What? You haven't even read it all yet - there's more than one page!"
"Yes, but it starts 'Dear Valuable VIP Customer'. They may as well say 'Please drop your pants and bend over the table by that unnecessarily large hammer action masonry drill'."
"They're one of our software vendors, it's just a renewal notice."
"That remains to be seen," I say, flipping the page. "Blah, blah, blah, royal shafting."
"Where?"
"There," I say, pointing to the last page of the renewal invoice.
"It's just the bill!"
"Yes, but see the little boxes for you to tick the products you want to renew with larger boxes for the number of licenses that you wish to renew?"
"Yes."
"And all the boxes are empty?"
"Yes."
"How do they get filled in?"
"I suppose I fill them in."
"With what?"
"I tick the Boxes and enter the numbers."
"Which boxes and which numbers?" I ask.
"I DON'T BLOODY KNOW!" the Boss snaps, getting a little tired of the interrogation.
"And there's my point. We don't even USE some of this software, so suddenly you'd start paying maintenance on software we don't have. More importantly, after we've been paying for... I dunno... three years, they'll say there's a major release and we need to pay for that, which we we'll do because we're paying maintenance on it so we must be using it somewhere. The best bit though, is the number of licenses. We're a Valuable VIP Customer..."
"What does that mean?"
"It means they think we're stupid and have lots of money to spend. If we're that valuable surely they'd REMEMBER the number of licenses we had and just prefill in the form for us."
"So they're... ... ...?"
"Wanting us to do one of two things - mistakenly fill in the form with an overly large number so they make a bit more cash. OR, mistakenly fill in the form with a low number so they wait a couple of months before saying that a routine license review noticed we underestimated our licenses by a certain amount and that because the expiry period has passed these licenses now cost an extortionate amount. 'Which would still be cheaper than involving the legal representatives of our two companies'..."
"So how many licenses do we use?"
"Who knows? The larger the company the more obscure the number of licenses held. When it's completely impossible you become a Valuable VIP customer."
"So what are we going to do?"
"Well you could go from room to room counting licenses."
"I don't thi..."
"Or we could force an application out to every desktop to report licenses - which would upset the civil libertarians who'd think we we
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams
With your local hifi, you know that if you skip the deal, you won't be forced later to buy the product at all, or fail in your mission critical business deliverables.
Suppose MS comes out with a new version of office and you, as an IT director don't want to spend millions of dollars on it today. Because of the interdependancy of what Microsoft actually calls "The Microsoft Stack" you can't be sure that you won't be required to buy it a year from now. In fact, you probably will be. Past performance shows that your users will be shipped new PC's with newer Operating Systems that don't support the old office version, or the email system won't run on the old operating system, or the new office files won't be readable to be users without the new version of office, etc, etc, etc.
Microsoft's mistake was making it more obvious than it had to be that Microsoft's decision on what to release actually controls a large portion of the budget in big corporate IT shops. The move they attempted would have grabbed control not just of the expense then, but also the time in which the expense would have to be budgeted and paid for. By holding off on purchase and not bending to the whim of the Microsoft release schedule and revenue stream, you were being threatened with paying twice the budget later.
All this would be fine if you had more choice, but if you've bought into the Microsoft stack from end to end, you really don't. The move woke up more shops to this problem and many (obviously not the majority,yet) starting worrying more about this single source issue.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
Reminds me of this.
Engagement manager is a standard title for someone that has high level contact with clients. He or she is usually responisble for the big picture and is accountable for sales numbers. This person is also the go to guy for the client if they have issues. This person will also have a large expense budget and will take clients out for "meetings".
MS Engagement Manager: You MUST eat your 3 lb. lobster and drink your champaign!
Customer: NOOOOO!!!!!
I'm not sure where the intimidation factor is here?
>> "They don't look anything like Outlook..."
> That's a good thing isn't it? Outlook 2003 is an assault on the visual senses.
Agreed, BUT it's only a good thing in terms of actual usability and technical proficiency. In terms of getting that -initial buy in- from the business people; the initial agreement to -try- something else, it's a -huge- liability.
On the last half-dozen projects I worked on, -appearance- was the number one issue for users. It had to be "just so" and alternatives, even if they were superior, were not permitted.
"There's no innovation that we've seen come out of -- at least -- Linux,"
Ballmer said.
"Linux is a clone of a 30-years-old operating system (called Unix)."
davecb5620@gmail.com
MS Salesman: Wouldn't you like to buy an Enterprise license and support agreement?
...
Corporate ITO: Well, we have really have a mixed IT environment. What's the advantage?
MS Salesman: You might not get audited by the BSA. I understand that the audit process
can be very disruptive to a business' daily operations. Plus, we can almost
guarantee that you will not have any problems getting replacement License
6 OS and Productivity Suite authorization keys. You might even qualify for
timely security patches.
Corporate ITO: Well, aahhh, okay. Here's a blank check for you
Or is /. letting M$ fanbois moderate?
anti Microsoft bias.
That's not bias, that's experience.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I respectfully disagree. The simple act of counting licenses requires legal advice? Come on, can't we do anything in this country without involving an attorney anymore?
The knee-jerk reaction to contact a lawyer for anything and everything in the US is the main reason for our being by far the most litigious society in the world. This serves nothing except the legal community and is an impediment to our overall progress and productivity. As I said, a simple phone call to one of this person's superiors at MS probably would have been enough and the issue would have been defused then and there.
I am no MS apologist, but this was not an 'intimidation campaign' by Microsoft. It was an arrogant and abrasive employee who thought way too much of herself and who needed to be put back in line. I stand by my remarks.
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
...for proprietary special-purpose applications like the ones described. The reason being that Purolator and auto body specialty shops just need to run those specific packages. When MS cuts support for Windows, the parent companies have to redevelop their apps for the new platforms.
If they used Linux, they could keep shipping their old software until they want new features. They also wouldn't have any licensing concerns when cloning, copying or shippping their media. For somethign like Purolator, a Knoppix-style distribution could also save persistent data online, making upgrades trivial and backups unnecessary.
These PC's are special purpose. Windows is good for general purpose computing.
Well yes there are alternatives. It is a sad fact that people think a free OS is not any good. When in fact it is better and there are no licenses hassles. The main reason the company I work for is switching to Open Source. No more license hassles plus the savings on the price of the software itself.
Just think. I don't have to clean my machine weekly, pay for anti-virsus, rebuild machine machine on a regular basis. Sure I had to take the time to "learn" an new system, but then again at one time I had to learn to use Windoze. Plus security built in it from the ground up.
Wow, having been an anonymous /. reader for years, I finally had to register because I just had to chime in on this topic.
This sounds a lot like an experience I've had with Oracle lately. "Oh we think you're out of compliance." "Why?" "Because of the size of your company."
As far as I know (and I hired an external contractor to come in and review our licenses as well so I feel pretty comfortable with this statement) we still have plenty of licenses to spare. But Oracle has dragged me thru a full audit, longer then the consultant or Oracle Sales rep has ever heard them doing before. I'm sure they didn't appreciate the fact that when the continued to proceed past the preliminary survey and phone interview that we felt they were becoming a hostile business relationship and would be migrating our products away from Oracle. Needless to say they've continued pushing asking for more and more data. To date not a single thing I've sent them could possibly show a compliance issue. But they have in fact soured the business relationship with the company I work for. The new directive from the VP of IT in my company is we will never use any Oracle product for anything again. Between this and what I've now read regarding Microsoft, I think we will be looking to go open source for as much as possible.
Microsoft used that exact same tactic with the company I work for back in 2002 - threatened us with audits, and sent in their drones. We caved and they got a big bag of money. Funny thing is, we're a well-known NOT FOR PROFIT organization. MS displayed a stunning level of greed, and I'm glad this tactic is finally getting some publicity.
It's the F in FUD
I started using the MAS line of products in 2000, so I'm not sure of prior to then -- though a lot of the old reference docs did say SOTA MAS90. Last year (or the year before?) Sage told us they were rebranding Best back to Sage, then about six months later decided to change back to Best. For while, we were getting MAS200 docs from Sage while getting Abra docs from Best. I guess they just wanted to burn through the old letterhead inventory :).
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
....Office is just one example and mostly stands alone. When you starting thinking in terms of integration among versions of office, outlook (not express), exchange server, win32 workstation & server platforms, all together it gets very very ugly.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
...care about.
When you deal with a company environment of 5 or 10 thousand workstations on a constant rotation process for upgrades, new ones start coming preloaded with newer versions of office. Newer Outlook clients require newer exchange servers. Newer exchange servers require newer server platforms. Older outlook or office users start finding it hard to read stuff from the newer ones. Customers send word documents in latest version formats and you can't read them.
From an I.T. management perspective, what's easily handled if its just some guy working at home because a big problem at a scale of many thousand guys working at home and in the office.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
Really old news. MS has been doing this sort of thing for years, the old "your company is underlicensed" trick. "Would you believe you need 500 licenses?" These stories have been reported before, and IT managers have been insprired to switch to OSS as a result, although not very many.
... what exactly *is* this industry?
When your business is at stake, you call a lawyer, that's why most companies of any size keep one on retainer all the time. "counting licenses" is ALWAYS a problem. Look at the Earnie Ball situation as a example. The people "tried" to be license compliant, but got nailed for $50k + because they didn't "properly" remove the software from computers moved around in the office.
My own company has a PC tech dedicated to maintaining the licenses on all our PCs. He keeps spreadsheets with all the numbers and wipes every machine that comes in and puts fresh, license compliant installs on each and every one. Still, with a minimum of $100k at stake, if we got one of those calls, the lawyer would be the next phone call. Consider it the equivelant of a policeman "just asking" you to put on handcuffs and get in the car... These people are cocky suckups with a multi-billion dollar corp behind them.. such "threats" are entirely out of line unless they are serious.