Nintendo's Iwata Skeptical of In-Game Ads, Episodes

Next Generation reports that Nintendo President Iwata has expressed skepticism about the benefits of in-game advertising and episodic content. From the article: "He added, 'Asking customers to pay something monthly, or something periodically, we can never expect that kind of revenue to become the significant, main resources for Nintendo.' Despite Nintendo's adherence to disruptive-thinking, the company is clearly wedded to the concept of up-front single payments for product as its main revenue source."

Comments

Thank God.

[eldavojohn]

You know, I might be the only one to feel this way, but I am glad that Nintendo isn't planning on monthly payments to leech money out of its victim ... er ... consumer.

In the eyes of Sony, you are addicts willing to pay anything for a console. In the eyes of other console makers/game producers, you are merely sacks of money and they want the moneys from inside you. One year of playing an online game at $12/month comes out to $144. The amount of money they get from advertisers is also very large considering putting it in a game.

I think that today, communications and technology are cheap. I pay for my broadband internet service provider, why do I have to pay again for another service of essentially the same thing? I would prefer paying $400 with no monthly fee for World of Warcraft instead of $40 with a $13 monthly fee. Why? Because in the two and a half years that it has been out, you've accumulated a price of $40 + $13*30 = $420 and we all know it won't end there. Monthly payments are a means to milk your users. I would rather them charge me lots of money and promise the service until the company is bankrupt. I like that Iwata wants to develop that as a successful business model and I hate that everyone is moving the other way.

I also don't care for product placement in my games. We're so concerned about society not viewing games as art when really they should be! They are the next new media to for artists and it's things like capitalising off of the end user and sacrificing content for product placement that really destroy any efforts to make this happen. Let's make a game that evokes emotions and deep responses from the user ... then let's exploit them, charge them a monthly fee to do so and make their character collect cans of Jolt(TM) to "power-up." Good luck.

Re:Thank God.

[UbuntuDupe]

You know, I might be the only one to feel this way, but I am glad that Nintendo isn't planning on monthly payments to leech money out of its victim ... er ... consumer.

I definitely agree with your sentiments. When a company sells a product under cost, hoping to "get it back" through some gimmick down the line, I get very suspicious. It's the kind of strategy that could lead to them suing customers to "get back revenue" the customer stole, by, e.g., disabling ads or something. When their costs are covered up front, it's much less likely that they'll try something evil. (It's for the same reason that you should have been suspicious of cyber-rebate.com's overpriced items that it would, they promise, refund.) That's why I respect Nintendo's strategy of making money on the console itself, which it generally does for a while until third party support is reliably bringing in enough.

Re:Thank God.

[porcupine8]

I would prefer paying $400 with no monthly fee for World of Warcraft instead of $40 with a $13 monthly fee. Why? Because in the two and a half years that it has been out, you've accumulated a price of $40 + $13*30 = $420 and we all know it won't end there.

Yes, but if you were selling software, which would be a safer bet? That your target audience would have $400 lying around, or that they would have $40 lying around plus an extra $13/month? Most people are far more likely to be able to put up the smaller monthly amounts.

You could put the $400 on a credit card and pay it off little by little. But assuming a 10% interest rate (VERY generous here, most are over 15%) and assuming you pay $40 the first month and $13 after that just like on the subscription plan, it would take you 32 months to pay it off, with $56 interest. Considering that not every person who plays a game is going to play it that long, and many people don't know when they start a game whether they'll be playing it that far in the future, it makes more sense for many people to have the monthly plan where they can cancel it if they need or want to rather than to buy it upfront and have to pay the full amount whether or not they still play it two years from now - and whether or not they can still afford it two years from now.

Re:Thank God.

[digidave]

$400 up front would never work. I'd be happy paying a monthly fee for a game if the game was free because at least then it'd be a low barrier to entry to try the game. I would have tried all the MMOs by now if the game itself was free.

Re:Thank God.

[falcon8080]

I would prefer paying $400 with no monthly fee for World of Warcraft instead of $40 with a $13 monthly fee. Why? Because in the two and a half years that it has been out, you've accumulated a price of $40 + $13*30 = $420 and we all know it won't end there. If i remember correctly there is an option to pay a whole 12 months worth of subscription to WoW for a reduced monthly price. Most people balk at spending that amount of cash upfront, myself included, even though I/We end up paying more in the long run. I believe that episocid content is a really bad idea, but for MMO's a monthly fee makes sense, as in essence the game world goes on and on, plus it gives you an unprecidented social interaction that you cannot get with a single player game (At least not yet).

Re:Thank God.

[duerra]

Thank God

Those are the first two words that came to my mind when I read the headline. THANK. GOD.

I guess somebody at Nintendo heard my pleas. I'm starting to love this company more and more by the day.

I guess I can't say the same thing about SONY. Between rootkits, lies, overpriced consoles, ripoffs of genuinely innovative technology, and just their brash arrogance in thinking that they can do whatever they hell they want and people will still purchase their crap because they're "SONY", I just start to get more irritated with them every time I see a SONY headline. I think they're in for a very rude awakening come the PS3 release.

Re:Thank God.

[joe 155]

I'm with you. Although I think my opinion goes a little further; there is no way in hell that I would EVER pay for a game monthly; indeed, doing so encourages them to keep doing it. I hate paying for anything monthly when I know that it will continue forever so far I never have; I hope I never will (although in the end I hope i'll end up with more money than sense and will be able to do crazy things like this).

Re:Thank God.

[ndogg]

I sure as heck hope they start distributing free server software so that people don't have to rely upon just Nintendo for hosting.

Re:Thank God.

[hex0016]

Monthly payments are a means to milk your users.

That may be true, but they're also a means to pay for server upkeep after you've already sold through your software at retail.

Re:Thank God.

[onedobb]

I do understand what you are talking about. On the other hand I would be really pissed if I paid lets say $200 for a game that didn't intrest me. It irritates me to lose $50 on a game that I don't like. Honestly it irritates me to loose $20 on a game. Would you willingly spend $200 on a game you've never played?

Re:Thank God.

[Swimmin' Pants]

I couldn't agree with you more. It seems to me like micropayments are just a scheme to slowly suck the life out of customers without them realizing it.

I'm a huge fan of The Elder Scrolls series, but I haven't downloaded a single one of the official plug-ins for Oblivion. It's not that I don't want them, and it's not that I can't afford them, but rather, I don't want to encourage Bethesda to get involved with episodic content. Granted, Oblivion is DEFINITELY a complete game, but I'd be devastated if Elder Scrolls V cost $50 for the gameworld, and then required you to pay a dollar to unlock each individual quest (This is an exaggeration, but the point is valid).

While episodic content and minor, regular payments may not seem bad now, if more devs end up considering it a worthwhile business plan, I guarantee you that some companies will alter games, withhold content that was going to be in the original release, lock off entire gamemodes, and so on, just to increase the frequency of those small payments.

If I pay for a game, I want the whole game.

As for advertising ingame, if I'm flying around in outerspace, I don't want to fly past billboards for X3. Furthermore, if my spaceship gets shot down, I don't want to receive a communication from the hostiles saying "Uh-oh, better get MAACO!"

While advertisements make sense in games taking place in a MODERN SETTING, it's just absolutely ridiculous and completely harmful to the immersion of fantasy or sci-fi games.

I applaud Iwata's stance on the subject, and look forward to a great console generation with the Wii :)

Re:Thank God.

[acidrain69]

Nintendo did put product placements in their games though, even early ones from near the Gamecube release.

Super Monkey Ball. Dole logo was pasted all over it. Although they didn't really push it in your face or sacrifice the game in any way for it. You would just see the big logo in a few places.

I'm OK with seeing a brand here and there. I usually ignore it anyway. I don't like it incorporated into story of the game. I paid for a game, not a commercial to sit through.

Re:Thank God.

[SetupWeasel]

Super Monkey Ball.

That is Sega. If you want to make your case then pick an actual Nintendo game... like Pikmin 2. You collected small treasures like Duracell batteries and tins of Carwax. Honestly, I think of Pikmin 2 as product placement done right. It lends a familiarity that generic items couldn't adding, however slightly, to the experience.

Re:Thank God.

[DrEldarion]

Monthly fees make FAR more sense than one-time large fees.

1) It's more affordable for people who have small amounts of disposable income each month.
2) It's not a waste if you play for half a year then quit.
3) The company has an incentive to actually give people new content and good support - if you don't, you lose subscribers.

As for ads, I posted this in another topic about them:

It depends on the game. Sports and racing games gain a lot of realism by showing the same types of ads you'd see in real life. I prefer to play one of these games with real ads than with fake/no ads. Other types of games, as well, can benefit - running around a large city? Billboards make sense. Running around an office? Soda machines in the breakroom make sense.

It's all about context. Sometimes, ads can be good and add to immersion.

Re:Thank God.

[Traiklin]

I guess I can't say the same thing about SONY. Between rootkits, lies, overpriced consoles, ripoffs of genuinely innovative technology, and just their brash arrogance in thinking that they can do whatever they hell they want and people will still purchase their crap because they're "SONY", I just start to get more irritated with them every time I see a SONY headline. I think they're in for a very rude awakening come the PS3 release.

I love comments like these cause their so easy to twist around,

I guess I can't say the same thing about MICROSOFT. Between DRM Schemes, lies, overpriced consoles, ripoffs of genuinely innovative technology, and just their brash arrogance in thinking that they can do whatever they hell they want and people will still purchase their crap because they're "MICROSOFT", I just start to get more irritated with them every time I see a MICROSOFT headline. I think they're in for a very rude awakening come the Xbox 360 release.

wasn't that fun children?

everyone is expecting Nintendo to be the leader come next generation once the Wii is released, people will sell their 360's skip the PS3 and go right for the Wii cause it's innovative. Guess what? It ain't going to happen.

I've been a huge fan of Nintendo since the NES days, I've bought every system (except for a Vitrual Boy) they have released played every game made by nintendo that was released in the USA but I realize they are in for the long haul, they have a better chance at second place then they did with the Gamecube but there isn't any way they could finish first. Everything is about graphics now, not innovation. Blood and gore is what mainstream want's not fun and quirky games of the past. Interesting story's take a back seat to bump mapping, anti-aliasing and all that other crap, the higher you can get that stuff to be the better your game is according to the mainstream gamer.

I really do wish Nintendo would just dominate next gen, just obliterate Microsoft & Sony when it comes to sales but it just won't happen because their controller is to different for third party's to get. so it will get about as much support as the gamecube did, that is untill that one special game comes out just like with the DS that shows off what you really can do with your games, then there will be a string of copy cat games before they just go back tot he way they were while nintendo continues to release the kickass games.

I do agree with the first comment though, Thank god Nintendo realizes that Episodic content is doomed to failure ($20 per instalation, you get a LONG game that has 9 installments you are paying $180 for a full game, only have to wait 18 months for), In game advertising can work depending on the game and the ad though (I just can't picture Mario collecting Nike shoes to "enhance his jumping ability", just like getting some adidas clothes in Final fantasy but it CAN work in FPS' and games like GTA & any sports game).

The only thing I want to know is how much those downloads are going to be for old games.

Re:Thank God.

[Churla]

Well you may have a big wordy fancy schmancy post there, but you forget something.

World of Warcraft is an ongoing game with content which is added over time, and new things to do. If you want to keep a staff of programmers and artists and other development people around you have to have an ongoing stream of income, ergo the monthly payment model.

You could opt for the only buy expansions deal like Guild Wars, but then you also hamstring how much content you have in the game.

I think there are places for both in the marketplace. Nintendo favors the up front one price model because once that game is out the door that's it. There's no ongoing expenses. If people bought a game and were expecting new content to be added every few months then they would have to charge for it one way or another.

Re:Thank God.

[acidrain69]

Doh! I assumed it was an inhouse game. I never really checked.

Re:Thank God.

[duerra]

I guess I can't say the same thing about MICROSOFT. Between DRM Schemes, lies, overpriced consoles, ripoffs of genuinely innovative technology, and just their brash arrogance in thinking that they can do whatever they hell they want and people will still purchase their crap because they're "MICROSOFT", I just start to get more irritated with them every time I see a MICROSOFT headline. I think they're in for a very rude awakening come the Xbox 360 release.

Well, I'll be... I couldn't agree more.

Other than the fact that SONY has, or has tried to, one up the level of "evil" in every single one of those categories, I can't say that I disagree with you. (And I capitalize SONY because that's how the SONY logo is, not to try and be a dick, FYI).

I also respectfully disagree with your analysis of the coming years in gaming (in saying that Microsoft and/or SONY will dominate). I happen to agree with Nintendo's strategy, and I think that we're going to find that the bulk of consumers don't want to try to save up paychecks for months in order to be able to afford the latest and greatest in gaming consoles.

It really bugs me to see all this hype around hi-def graphics. Most of the people doing the hyping don't even have hi-def TV's, and just because a game is displayed at a higher resolution doesn't make it any more realistic. When I watch my Twins play baseball on FSN each night, I don't sit there and think that the game looks any less realistic because it isn't in high definition. If a baseball game could look as real as a real baseball game, it doesn't matter whether or not it's in high-definition. It's still going to look good regardless.

Re:Thank God.

[BinaryOpty]

I agree that Pikmin 2's product placement was perfect. It made sense in the context of the world and wasn't trying to sell you anything, it was just there as objects in the world--our world.

Re:Thank God.

[Kuvter]

I would prefer paying $400 with no monthly fee for World of Warcraft instead of $40 with a $13 monthly fee. Why? Because in the two and a half years that it has been out, you've accumulated a price of $40 + $13*30 = $420 and we all know it won't end there.

Well this may be true you're potentially not buying other games if you're still playing the first one you bought 2 1/2 years go. What if you bought WoW and got sick of it after 4 months. Now you'ved shelled out $100 a month. One thing they could do however is get rid of that $50 up front fee and just let you pay the $13/month fee. If you like the game they'll make the money of you you eventually and that will more than make up for the production costs the $50 was supposed to cover.

I like what Iwata is saying though. Blizzard has been successfull with this with Starcraft, Diablo 2, and Warcraft 3. Guildwars through NCsoft has also been successful with this as well, but they all however had expansion pacts come out for their games. Sure it's not a monthly fee, but still thats $50 more every time an expansion comes out.

I'm not sure of how Nintendo is going to fraw the cost of keeping up with patches and new content, but I hope they're successful.

Re:Thank God.

[Traiklin]

(And I capitalize SONY because that's how the SONY logo is, not to try and be a dick, FYI)

ah ok, thank you for clearing that up, everytime I see someone mention sony it's always in the capital letters and going by the netiquett rules that means that you are either emphasizing something or shouting.

and I agree with you 100%, I hope I am dead wrong about Sony or Microsoft dominating next gen, I don't see Sony dominating next gen though not when you can get a very very good gaming PC for the same price (and if you are on a budget for christmas something that expensive is usually a family gift).

I honestly still don't get what the huge deal is over high definition either, I've seen HDTV running at the cable company when I pay the bill and it looks just like my TV at home, aside from the TV having the boxes on the left and right instead of at the top. I've seen the PLasma & LCD TV's displaying things at Walmart and Best buy, sure they aren't hooked up properly (only done through the RGB instead of actual digital signal) it makes me go Wow when I see how crisp the picture is but then I start thinking about what the TV would be used for, Video games (which is slowing down for me on a console) and general TV. I hardly watch any movies that would require me to have an HDTV and since they still cost way to much for a decent size, so you look at it and to get a "proper" TV for the PS3 you are looking at a minimum of $400 so a whole PS3 package is going to cost $1000 to get the "full true experiance".

as you said, that's just way to much for something so little. That's the reason I hope nintendo just dominates next gen, I plan on picking up a Wii before anything else simply because it looks really interesting and something my family can all play without problems (my mom and nephues play games but my mom hasn't played many cause you have to react way to fast and there's to many buttons, but the Wii solves that) and if it's true that it will launch for $200 then I will be picking it up around launch.

Re:Thank God.

[Chris Burke]

I can't say I really liked seeing all the product placement... Yet at the same time, it wasn't really in-game advertising, as there were no explicit logos or trademarked names on anything -- merely recognizable shapes/designs/colors. The idea was to play on existing familiarities, not reinforce product branding.

This was present in Pikmin 1 also, but at an even more subtle level. You never really collected the various products, they'd just be sitting in the scenes, covered in moss or otherwise representing the fact that this alien world was actually a post-humans earth inundated with the trash we leave behind everywhere we go.

Re:Thank God.

[Headcase88]

Well Wave Race: Blue Storm was published by Nintendo and I belive that had ads for Dr. Pepper and a couple other things.

But I agree, Pikmin 2 is product placement done right.

Re:Thank God.

[zeno_2]

Well, the way I see it is that sports games kinda need to have that type of stuff in it. Its what happens if you watch the same thing on TV.

Although, it made me sick, the last pro baseball game I went to, the 7th inning stretch was sponsored by a company. Then of course you have just about every stadium named after a company as well. Im not saying its right, but it fits in the world that they are trying to recreate.

Re:Thank God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that's why it came out on PS2 and XBox. You fucking genius!

Re:Thank God.

[aichpvee]

Well, the way I see it is that sports games kinda need to have that type of stuff in it. Its what happens if you watch the same thing on TV.

Which is why I'm only watching football on tv now. No commercial breaks and minimal stadium advertising.

Re:Thank God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind, though, that these monthly fees also pay for the maintenance, upgrades, and future expansions of the games. I'd much rather pay them $40 for the production, and a measely $13/month to ensure that the servers will continue to be up and running, and have a team make an effort to keep those servers stable and running, even with the thousands of other users that connect to the same server.

So it's like, as you pay your internet company to keep you connected to the internet, you're paying your game service to keep it from just dying out of bankruptcy. Like you said, most people will be playing for longer than just two years, and a lot of people are still playing even the first Everquest. I doubt they want all that hard work to just go poof because the company went poof as well.

Nintendo's marketing department

[voice_of_all_reason]

It's made of Win and More Win.

I was the biggest critic of the system when I first heard it's name was going to be a synonym for penis. But Nintendo just seems to be capitalizing on every single issue that MS and Sony have had problems with.

Better price, more commitment to customer service. Heck, if they only decide to make a regular controller in addition to the vibro-stick...

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[Grey Ninja]

You mean this? It's hardly news, but the first pictures were released at E3.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[CelticWhisper]

No need. Wii supports GameCube controllers. Whether that's only for backward compatibility with GC games or if Wii games will utilize it as well is yet to be seen. The fact remains, though, that the Wii will support a traditional controller as well as the remote.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[gEvil (beta)]

It's made of Win and More Win.

Ahem. That's Wiin and More Wiin.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[AndyG314]

Among the wii's features are 4 gamecube controller ports... Don't fully know what they are for yet but...

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[voice_of_all_reason]

That really was the last barrier keeping me on the fence. As much as I hate to love a system with such a goddamned goofy name, they've really got all the advantages now.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[pembo13]

To play gamecube games.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[Jerim]

The Wii will have ports for Gamecube controllers. Either use the ones from your existing Gamecube, or go pick up some cheap used ones for about $15.

The Gamecube controller makes a good traditional style controller. It may not be the absolute best model ever made, but it is more than adequate.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[Anonymous Coward]

don't you think it is funny that your name is "the voice of all reason" and yet you admit that you hate something soley for its name?

Let us hope that you are not the voice of all reason...

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never heard wee used to refer to a penis. I've heard the term weewee used to refer to a penis, but whenever I've heard the word wee it was to refer to something's size or to refer to the liquid that most frequently comes out of penises.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[aliquis]

You mean like the virtual console controller, shell addon to the wii-remote, various-whatever-controller connected to the wii-remote, the gamecube controller, ...

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[Anonymous Coward]

" Heck, if they only decide to make a regular controller in addition to the vibro-stick..."

They do - Its called the Classic. It kind of resembles a SNES pad with triggers and analog sticks. It will be used for backward compatibility on the Wii (NES, SNES, N64, Cube, Sega games) - and for certain games which don't utilise the wiimote.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[kisrael]

With one exception: the D-pad is too small!

I guess it's taken from the GBA-SP, where it's ok because of the way you're holding your other fingers directly behind where your thumb goes. But try a game like Dr. Mario / Panel de Pon (I sprung for the import) and it never feels precise enough, too small and fiddley.

Re:Nintendo's marketing department

[lidocaineus]

...a synonym for penis.

Uh, yeah. If you're 3 years old.

nintendo FTW!

[minus_273]

ok nintendo really looks like it gets it. Lets see, innovatinv gameplay, fun games, cheap console, free online service, no episodic content, no in game ads.

sounds too good to be true. But it is.

Re:nintendo FTW!

[Shadow Wrought]

sounds too good to be true. But it is

I agree. I keep waiting for the big deal-breaking thing that will break my heart but confirm my cynacism. So far though, Nintendo really seems closer in tune with the average gamer as opposed to the high end hard-core gamers. Since a lot of us have families now, that's even more comforting.

This is totally crazy...

[__aaclcg7560]

Why is Nintendo the only sane console company this year? Seems like Microsoft and Sony are fighting to get the top spot for shooting themselves in the foot with high console prices, while letting "has been" Nintendo walk away with the prize if the Wii is a runaway success at a lower price.

Re:This is totally crazy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft and Sony represent companies with a flawed buisness model; they believe that they should be pushing the graphical envelope because they can obtain better graphics. The results of this flawed approach is that development costs continue their exponential growth on Sony and Microsoft's systems, and they need extra revinue to produce the same game (ie. in game ads and what not).

The more intersting thing about Sony's approach is they have become so arogant that they no longer are willing to accept Lower Quality graphics on their system; meaning that SNK (and possibly other developers) are now producing games for the Wii (Metal Slug 6 is exclusive to Wii because of this).

Re:This is totally crazy...

[revlayle]

SNK has confirmed they are planning MS6, but only said the the Wii is a possibility and the 360/PS3 is out of the picture now. But a Metal Slug Anthology will be available for the Wii, supposedly.

Re:This is totally crazy...

[PhoenixFlare]

Why is Nintendo the only sane console company this year?

Because people are finally waking up to the fact that uberGraphics don't mean everything.

Seems like Microsoft and Sony are fighting to get the top spot for shooting themselves in the foot with high console prices, while letting "has been" Nintendo walk away with the prize if the Wii is a runaway success at a lower price.

Yeah, from what i've seen, they've been making a decent profit on their console (and dominating the handheld market) whilst Sony and Microsoft bleed money and immature game journalists/teenagers whine about how they're too "kiddie".

And now comes the part where they get revenge, if all goes well :)

Re:This is totally crazy...

[SoulRider]

Im feeling chilly.

MS/Sony:
        Run by MBAs/Laywers/Marketers.

Nintendo:
        Run by game designers/coders/players.

nuff said.

Re:This is totally crazy...

[Blakey Rat]

Probably because you're getting your gaming news from Slashdot, which is horribly biased towards Nintendo products. (Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but you just have to acknowledge that it's there.)

In any case, the Xbox 360 isn't priced unreasonably by any standard. The PS3 might be, but I'll reserve judgement until it's out-- after all Sony could still pull off something spectacular. Doubtful, but who knows?

Re:This is totally crazy...

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Why is Nintendo the only sane console company this year? Seems like Microsoft and Sony are fighting to get the top spot for shooting themselves in the foot..."

Nintendo is a game company, Sony and Microsoft are gadget companies. You know how people complain that Microsoft bought their way into the game market? Sony did the same thing in 95. Now all eyes are on Nintendo to put things right again.

The obligatory... STEAM SUCKS

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad for Nintendo. This trend in PC games almost makes me want to buy my first console... ever. I mean I've played them, but never really wanted to own one.

Re:The obligatory... STEAM SUCKS

[notrub225]

yeah, i have NEVER bought a console when it was new (i just bought a GBA a year and a half ago) but I find myself preordering a DS Lite and wanting to buy a Wii on launch day! Nintendo is really going to expand the gamer market this generation, i can feel it.

Thank God-exchange rate

[Anonymous Coward]

"You know, I might be the only one to feel this way, but I am glad that Nintendo isn't planning on monthly payments to leech money out of its victim ... er ... consumer. "

You're only a victim if you decide to play, er pay.

" In the eyes of other console makers/game producers, you are merely sacks of money and they want the moneys from inside you. "

What the heck are you? A pinata?

"I think that today, communications and technology are cheap. I pay for my broadband internet service provider, why do I have to pay again for another service of essentially the same thing?"

There's no comparison. One's an ongoing game. The other is the link between you and that game.

"Monthly payments are a means to milk your users."

Stop playing and the "milk" stops flowing. It's not like you're not getting anything for your money.

Episodic Content

[MBCook]

I think episodic content is an interesting idea and I'm for it, but only on one condition.

It should start episodic, and it should be cheap. First episode is $10. Second is $10. Third is $10....

And of course they have to be worth that much (a decent amount of content). $10 is enough that I'm willing to risk it, unlike the $60 you have to pay for a normal game. None of this "our game is $60, and then each episode is $15 after that" stuff. Don't use episodic content as an excuse for not completing a full expansion pack.

I don't think we'll see this done right ever. But the idea is there. That's how I'd be willing to buy episodic content (in fact I would be more likely to buy because of the lower risk I'm willing to tolerate when a game costs $60).

Re:Episodic Content

[88NoSoup4U88]

I paid 18 euros for Sin: Episodes (the second Sin game, released on Steam): And for that I also get the original Sin.

Not too shabby imo.

Re:Episodic Content

[joe 155]

hell, you think thats bad, you should try paying $1.50 for an incredibly small "horse" charcter which adds such a small amount to the game its real value is about $0.00000001 a la Xbox 360

Re:Episodic Content

[Lave]

It should start episodic, and it should be cheap. First episode is $10. Second is $10. Third is $10....

I totally agree with you, If you doing something, do it totally.

1) Advertising in your game? = Make the game free

2) Episodic content? = Do from the start with the same price throughout.

3) Pay up front? = You get the whole game.

Do anything of these, and if your game looks good, I'm on board. But MIX any of the above together and you lose me and my money.

I'm not spending £50 on a game full stop. And then if you expect me to drop another couple of quid to get horse armour then you are sadly mistaken. I know people will say "But you don't have to buy it if you don't want to." And they are right, but I do want it, but I don't want them drip feeding my wallet. as I play the game I will wonder about the parts I'm missing, whether it's unbalancing my game or spoiling it. And that puts me off buying the game in the first place.

I want to come home after a day at work and now I have the full game sitting on my shelf for whenever I want to play it.

So far it seems nintendo are sticking with 3) and 3) alone - and as long as they do - I will stick with them.

Re:Episodic Content

[Blakey Rat]

Don't say "ala Xbox 360" like it was Microsoft's idea. Bethestha is offering the same "content", for the same price, on their website for PC users. The only thing Microsoft did was provide the Live system that makes it possible. (But it also makes possible, for instance, me playing 8-player Marble Blast Gold with people all over the world.)

I love Iwata

[Brothernone]

I love nintendo, i'm going to e-mail them and i'm going to call and let them know. So far this year the only good news has come from Nintnedo. I'm excited for the new console, i'm excited they understand without people playing your games, there is no console. I hope everyone in the world just became a nintendo fanboy, because Sony and M$ are going to get rawked this year.

Re:I love Iwata

[Anonymous Coward]

Vulgar but pro-Nintendo remark follows...





This make me loves Nintendo so much I want to bathe in their wii...

Re:I love Iwata

[duerra]

I love nintendo, i'm going to e-mail them and i'm going to call and let them know.

Great idea. I just finished doing exactly that.

Re:I love Iwata

[aliquis]

Oh, to much chapter 3 Paper Mario: The thousand year door for you to?

Xbox Live

[twistedsymphony]

that's why I like Xbox Live's pay scheme... you pay upfront for a year... it's a service but they pay plan is like that of a purchased item. and if you don't want it tied to your bank account just buy the pre-iad service card...

of course they also offer the monthy route...

Actually...

[UbuntuDupe]

I believe Second Life, a fee-based MMORPG, allowed lifetime membership accounts. You could pay $225 for access forever. Or at least they did when I started in Summer '03. And some people took this.

Re:Actually...

[porcupine8]

I think that offering a one-time fee in addition is probably a good idea. I'm just saying that not *that* many people can (or want to) commit that chunk of money up front to a game, so I can see why subscription services are there. Personally, I can't imagine paying a monthly fee for a game either... But then, I rarely pay more than $25 for a game anyhow. *shrug* Assuming that these online games cost the producers much more than a normal game to continue to support, giving subscription options makes sense.

Advertising...

[MaestroSartori]

...like Pokemon? A fairly blatant kid-targetted merchandising campaign spread over several media, as far as I could see. Gotta catch 'em all ;)

Not that I'm saying the game wasn't good, you understand, just that maybe advertising isn't as clear cut as the gap between shows. Just look at MS and Viva Pinata for a more recent attempt at the same thing.

Re:Advertising...

[joe 155]

MS would do "gotta buy them all!... just $1 for the 5 and then $5 for each one thereafter, untill you have all 151!"

Re:Advertising...

[Masami Eiri]

Wha? Pokemon started as a game... they weren't advertising the show or card game with the video games... The in-game ads being talked about are stuff more like having a load-screen ad or billboards with real-life ads on them.

Re:Advertising...

[Tetrad_of_doom]

The Pokemon series is more about merchandising than it is about in game advertising.

If Pikachu (sp?) had to drink Red Bull constantly or lose it's power, then that would be in game advertising.

I like to compare Pokemon to Star Wars. George Lucas didn't make the bulk of his fortune off the movies, he made it off the merchandise.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, good or evil. It is just a different topic.

Re:Advertising...

[revlayle]

It was definately developed with mass-marketing in mind, however. Note, however, that the designer of the first Pokemon games wasn't necessarily thinking this when he thought of the idea, but you could better believe Nintendo was...

Re:Advertising...

[KDR_11k]

Yes but you don't run into ads in Pokemon, the game can be taken by itself without losing anything. Ingame ads would be if you got Coca-Cola (TM) in order to heal your Pokemon or have a Nokia brand cellphone. When they change the game to accomodate advertising. What they've done with Pokemon is selling a lot of merchandise and making a TV show and even movies. You could consider the series an ad for the game though it didn't seem very ad-centric from the few bits I saw. The Wizard, Super Mario Bros Super Show, they just try to sell you the game, the games themselves aren't changed.

Re:Advertising...

[ureshii_akuma]

The interesting thing about Pokemon is that, while the current marketing behemoth it has become is unquestionable, it started off (at least in Japan, possibly even in the US) with virtually no advertising - it became popular through word of mouth. So it is not quite analogous to Viva Pinata. With Pokemon, Nintendo started off by trying to make a good game, succeeding, and then setting the marketing machine to work. Viva seems to be trying its best to get the marketing machine going first, and hope this translates into people buying the game ...

Nintendo. Google?

[Lord_Dweomer]

Is it just me or does Nintendo kind of act like the Google of the console industry?

Also, is there any sane person alive that DOESN'T see episodic releases as anything but a money grab and a "me too" attempt at grabbing juicy juicy monthly revenue?

Good job Nintendo, for recognizing what you do best, and focusing on that.

MOD (AC) PARENT UP

[UbuntuDupe]

Parent gives an important insight far too lacking today, not just in console hardware. As a general rule, an exponential increase in stimulus is perceived by humans as a linear increase. As it pertains to graphics, the difference between the NES and SNES, and then between SNES and N64/PS was huge. However, now we're at the point where better graphics wouldn't make much of a difference *as perceived by the user* unless the image could look almost indistinguishable from the real thing. So at this point, the additional cost really does not justify the better graphics. On the other hand, we are still on the low end in terms of sensor technology, so including controllers that integrate more body movement, and more accurately, add proportionally more value to the system.

The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[wilbz]

Despite Nintendo's adherence to disruptive-thinking, the company is clearly wedded to the concept of up-front single payments for product as its main revenue source.

The issue now is that single payments as the only real revenue stream IS dirsuptive thinking. More and more companies are looking at the 'pay now, then keep paying' school of design. This has been going on for quite some time (expansion packs for PC Games), but the addition of hard drives and on-line capabilities to the major console systems has made this a more feasible concept. We saw the first iteration of it with the last generation, but many of the next gen consoles (especially Sony) appear to be designed around 'upgradable content'. What used to be an anathema to console design is rappidly becoming a 'feature'. Add in the recent success of Blizzard, and now everyone is looking for the next big addiction inducing game that they can reap a constant stream of cash from.

I initially was extremely dissapointed by the lack of an HD in the Wii, but now it looks like a major selling point to me. I don't need to worry about patches, or incomplete games with additional "episodes" to complete the product. I'm also not worried about a lack of variety, as it's in Nintendo's best interest to produce a vast array of games to ensure that they keep selling product, and keep making money.

PS2's largest appeal was the library of games available. The console was neither the most powerful, nor necessarily the most affordable, but people wanted to get it because of the vast selection of games they could choose from. Sony appears to have tossed all that out the window by making a console that is (reportedly) significantly more difficult to program for, thus creating a much greater barrier to entry for new titles. Nintendo, on the other hand, appears to be saying "Here is a relatively easy console to develop for with a brand new opportunity for interface, develop what you will". They did something similar with the DS, and look at it's market share in comparison to the PSP.

The thing that has impressed me the most about Nintendo is that they've figured out the "right" changes to make. When they came out with the DS as their next gen gameboy, the vast consensus was WTF? But they still managed to change the way we play handheld games, and the gaming community is better for it. They're doing the exact same thing with the Wii, everyone let out a collective WTF, but it seems like more and more people feel that Nintendo just gets it. Count me in.

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[Lave]

I initially was extremely dissapointed by the lack of an HD in the Wii, but now it looks like a major selling point to me. I don't need to worry about patches, or incomplete games with additional "episodes" to complete the product.

Wow, you've just sold me a Wii*.

Having the full game is very important to me. The people who actually buy games (rather than aquire them) do so because of some in built desire to collect. You see it in Record buffs, and movie buffs. It's a strong desire (in geeky men at least), and it effects me too; I'm proud of my gamecube collection, knowing that I can dip in at anytime. It's something to treasure (hence why backwards compatibility is so important).

If you start shipping games that get constant extra content to buy with micro-transactions then I know that unless I buy everything my collection isn't complete - and to be truely honest - that kills the desire to collect these games. When I'm browsing the shops and see a game on sale (at a reasonable price), I will pick it up on a wim - I know the total cost of ownership. But if micro-payments become the norm - like how sony and microsoft hope - then I will look at the same game and wonder how much it will cost to get everything I want from the game, and most likely end up walking by.

(* or at least put the final nail in the coffin of my wallet.)

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[Generic Guy]

Sony appears to have tossed all that out the window by making a console that is (reportedly) significantly more difficult to program for, thus creating a much greater barrier to entry for new titles.

At the minimum this will probably be good for Microsoft, as the 360 development environment is reportedly pretty nice to work on. I expect with the PS3's high price, difficult programming mountain and similar capabilities of the 360 hardware, it will be regulated to lots of ports of Xbox360 games. In other words, there's not much to differentiate the PS3.

Relating back to the article, Nintendo has not yet released price nor availability information but I'm already waiting to get a Wii! (Still holding hope they change the name, though)

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[SoulRider]

The DS is another line of handhelds, nintendo has always claimed that the DS is not the next gen gameboy and that the next gen gameboy is due soon.

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[Cadallin]

Firstly, the PS2 was VERY difficult to develop for by comparison to the XBOX or the Gamecube, it had all the titles because everybody beleived all the hype about how the GraphicSynth would "change everything" and the "PS2 is a supercomputer," in much the same way people are talking about the cell now. Secondly, not only does the Wii have built in flash memory (512mb) and SD card slots (maximum supported capacity as yet unknown, many devices have software limitations of 1 or 2 GB, but again these are driver limitations and cards of up to at least 4GB are commonly available now) but the Wii has standard USB ports and will support user added external HDD on them. All the better to locally store nintendo complete back catalog of games.

Tangentially, has anybody thought about how hackable this is likely to make the Wii? I can see the Wii being a VERY nice Linux media box, I mean, USB ports, SD cards, how hard can it be to get linux booting on this thing, and from there, you get a wirelessly controlled machine that should have no problem playing back MP3's, FLAC's, MPEG-4's and surfing the web (although it will apparently do that already).

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[justchris]

The hackability of the box depends on the WiiOS and it's security features. As "nice" as Nintendo is as a company, they've always been very protective of their intellectual property. You can be sure that WiiOS (okay, I really, really like that word) will have heavy security and DRM to prevent that sort of thing. That doesn't mean you won't be able to do it, it just means it won't be as easy as you might think.

Of course, the absolute best security would be to allow you to run a different OS from a USB harddrive, without accessing the main OS at all, just using the CPU/GPU and whatnot with binary drivers for the hardware, thereby totally removing the incentive to mess around with the internal OS unless you are specifically trying to copy/pirate games.

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[TemporalBeing]

Despite Nintendo's adherence to disruptive-thinking, the company is clearly wedded to the concept of up-front single payments for product as its main revenue source.

The issue now is that single payments as the only real revenue stream IS dirsuptive thinking. More and more companies are looking at the 'pay now, then keep paying' school of design...

I think the really big thing is that Nintendo is looking to an entirely untapped market that Microsoft and Sony seem to be ignoring. One of the first things I heard about the Wii (when it was still 'Revolution') was that they were going to release all the games for prior Nintendo systems for it - don't know if its true, but it certainly grabbed my attention; and just looking at some of the stuff about the Wii it seems that are looking to follow through on that, but only time will tell.

The amazing thing is that Nintendo is looking to the normal person to be their game audience - the people that grew up on and are still using the NES, SNES, etc. I'm certainly in that boat - I have two NES systems (one original style, one upright/SNES style) that I still hook up to the TV from time to time and play. I have not yet bought a PSX/PS2/Xbox/Xbox360/GC - and in fact I won't buy a PSX - no need to, nor do I like Microsoft enough to buy a Xbox/Xbox360, and I don't have a desire to buy a PS2 (though I might as a DVD player and for my couple of PS2 games, and possibly a few other PS2 games that I _might_ buy...but that's unlikely now)...

Now, I never did buy a GC, but now - especially if Nintendo waits long enough to push out the Wii, which I doubt - I'd be a lot more likely to buy a GC knowing that my GC games, cards, and controllers will work on the Wii. That's actually quite a first for any console - PS2/Xbox360 had support for older games, but you still had to replace all your memory cards and controllers (AFIAK).

I was thinking I would get a PS3, but then Sony killed that by making the price super high, and it just isn't worth it - I don't care enough, nor do I have that kind of money laying around.

But the Wii - if the rumor/analysts should be trusted - should be at a good price, and I don't have to worry about losing my current (though small) investment. But the really big killer is that I might get to get all those NES/SNES/N64 games that I wanted way back when and never got, and get them on the brand new Wii - that'd be a selling point in itself; not to mention that the controller can be turned 90 degrees and instantly you have the original NES controller - just brings back memories, good memories.

So yeah - I think Nintendo will make a real huge come back because they are looking to the rest of the market - where Sony and Microsoft are not paying attention. They're looking to the average person who does not want to spend a month or two playing the thousands and thousands of levels, but would rather take the next 10 years to play a little here and a little there, and may be eventually beat the game; or just pal-around with buddies over a beer while playing to have some fun, nothing serious - and they've made it simple enough that it really could be a source of family entertainment if everyone got together and played the games - I mean com'on, parents sitting down with their kids playing a game from their childhood (Duck Hunt anyone?) that has been updated enough that their kids won't realize that their parents actually use to play the game, what parent wouldn't want to play with them?

I'll get one - and it'll go with our non-HD TV, and my wife and I will be able to enjoy the game, without worrying about what little detail will kill us next, and in time we'd be able to enjoy with our kids, being able to play it just as easily as they - not something possible with the Sony/Microsoft consoles.

For example - anyone could sit down and play MarioKart and have fun; but NFS or GT or the likes - only the advanced players that played day-in-day-out co

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[Cadallin]

While I think that it is certainly likely that Nintendo is likely to go to lengths to prevent it, (Even though, paradoxically, it would be quite beneficial for them in many ways, since Nintendo is going to sell the Wii at a profit, as opposed to the Xbox) I think it is almost inevitable that the the Wii will be hacked, it's low price point will make it an especially attractive target. And, hell, if it requires *that* much work, I may just buy two of 'em, one for hacking and one to remain pristine. IMO, a Nintendo Wii running linux could, in some ways, start to compete with a mac mini as a media machine, and a much lower price. (Yes, i realize there is a fairly sizable gap between the two in terms of computing power)

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[justchris]

If someone can hack together some drivers for the Wiimote, I'd be willing to buy a second one for some homebrew.

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[kisrael]

Get over the damn name.

It's goofy, there are lots of pee and dick jokes possible, it's a weird bit of marketing and after a while it starts to sound right. It doesn't look like there's gonna be another course change before the thing is released.

Re:The Old Ways Are Now Revolutionary

[Pope]

Backwards compatibility in consoles is a red herring, and one that only came about by accident with the PS2. If you want to keep playing old games, keep your old console.

Viva Iwata <3

[lneely42]

Reading some comments here, I have to agree. It's really funny that Nintendo capitalizes on the things Sony and Microsoft think as "revenue loss."

I think it's just a matter of Nintendo caring more about the quality of their products than how much money they can make. I mean, obviously, they're in for making money, but their approach is what I view as correct -- gaining customers through their QUALITY, not for their name (which was, for a long time, THE standard for gaming).

Now, I can only hope that some neat RPGs are released on the Wii. :) I recall reading something about all of the old NES and SNES games being re-released (someone might confirm this for me?), and that is also very attractive :).

Anyway. Three cheers, Nintendo! -LN

Re:Nintendo. Google? IBM.

[Jerf]

A better comparision is IBM. Used to be completely dominant, looked to be crashing for a while, eventually came back as a company than only be described as wise, something very unusual for a company, and experienced great success once again as a player in a larger industry, instead of depending on domination.

Or at least in the case of Nintendo, potentially wise; we'll have to see how this turns out. But if it turns out well, I'd say it's an appropriate word.

Episodic play not for Nintendo?

[Kuukai]

Asking customers to pay something monthly, or something periodically, we can never expect that kind of revenue to become the significant, main resources for Nintendo.

I really wish I could find it online, but Nintendo once ran a commercial in Japan in which Mario in an astronaut suit told me that from now on games will come from space, so I better get a subscription. Different president, I know, but still...

Re:Episodic play not for Nintendo?

[dorbabil]

Actually, the Sattalaview system was comparable to what the new games on the virtual console will probably be like. They fell into a few categories: 1 - Reusing existing game modes to create episodic content (There were three or four extremely short Fire Emblem campaigns, and BS Zelda had new dungeons and special events added each week or month or something). 2 - Reusing existing game modes to create new multiplayer experiences (Mario 3 and Excitebike both had pretty compelling multiplayer modes). 3 - Simple, but addicting, brand new titles. "Suck and Blow" (I forget the japanese title, I think it's something Sutte Hauken, but it's been awhile) was a great puzzle game where you were one of those glass dunking birds, and you had to navigate mazes collecting shards while sucking up and spitting out objects and dyes (which bestowed different effects to various objects). The big difference here is that you paid a single price for the hardware, and a recurring monthly cost to access the service. After that, everything was free (to the best of my knowledge). My guess is that the VC will be free to access and require no new hardware, but content will cost money.

Re:Episodic play not for Nintendo?

[LordVader717]

Could this be the one you're looking for

Re:Episodic play not for Nintendo?

[Kuukai]

Yes! It is, thanks.

Re:Nintendo. Google?

[Anonymous Coward]

I sincerely hope not. Nintendo releases finished, functional products and doesn't mysteriously make them stop working if they suspect you aren't using them properly (Adsense).

If Nintendo acted like Google, furthermore, they'd charge you a few bucks for poor-quality replicas of old games.

Hunta, Interrupted

[0xABADC0DA]

Microsoft and SONY probably thought they had an implicit kind of understanding that often happens these days when there are only a few companies in a market. They probably thought everybody wins if they each overcharge or make a too-expensive product. People are still going to buy, so if they all have high prices they all benefit.

It's like on Jeopardy when the person in 3rd place bets $0 instead of all their money then wins because nobody expected them to do that and it was a question nobody knew. Nintendo basically bet nothing, just updating their system to current tech instead of expensive future tech, and is going to win big time because the other guessed wrong. Even without their new controller they would win this round.

Re:Nintendo. Google?

[tukkayoot]

I think the only reason developers are looking to episodic content as "the wave of the future" is because the games are getting absurdly expensive to create, thanks to the need to employ dozens upon dozens of artists to populate their worlds with content that live up to the standard that games are being held to today. Having to model all of those high poly count characters, monsters, buildings and weapons, and texture them all with high resolution, highly detailed bump maps, parallax maps, normal maps, etc. is very labor intensive.

The "gamer" demographic is not growing significantly in size and the games are getting more expensive to make. The apparent solution, in the eyes of Sony and Microsoft, and all of the developers who aim to produce cutting edge visuals with their games, is give people a relatively short game for $50-60, then squeeze them for a few extra dollars here and there by having them download new episodes, weapons, horse armor, levels, or whatever.

This is the price we're going to have to get used to paying for detailed graphics, because until we see some substantial breakthroughs in the way advanced graphics are produced, then I don't think things are going to change. The publishers have to maintain profitability somehow.

I've been hearing for the past 10 years from gamers that "gameplay is more important than graphics", but it's the graphics that have been driving the industry, for the most part. Nintendo is finally holding gamers to their word by saying "Okay, you wanted gameplay over graphics? Here you go." The fact that the Wii doesn't have all of the shaders, the memory, or the raw CPU/GPU power of its competitors means that developers don't have to invest all those resources in creating the most visually stunning games (unless they do it by employing a bold style that like Okami for the PS2) because there is no prayer of anything on the Wii looking as realistic as the most realistic games on the PS3.

The pressure to one-up the competition with graphics is gone on the Wii, leaving a focus on the quality (and quantity) of gameplay.

What's so bad about episodic?

[Snowmit]

Also, is there any sane person alive that DOESN'T see episodic releases as anything but a money grab and a "me too" attempt at grabbing juicy juicy monthly revenue?

I think I'm sane. And I think that episodic gaming is a great idea.

I just downloaded and enjoyed SiN Episode 1. I wasn't sure if I'd like it or not, but I figured that $18 wasn't that much (2 Movie tickets) and so worth the risk. Now, I happened to like Episode 1 so I'll probably buy Episode 2. But if I hadn't liked Episode 1, I'd be done giving them my money. I would not have picked up a $70 SiN game off the shelves.

The problem with the pay $70 at the cash register model is that it means that developers feel like they need to add (tack on) new features and I have to wait years between games. And if I'm going to invest that much money in a game I need to KNOW that I'll like it. Episodic gaming reduces the barrier to entry for me to try new, untested games. It allows developers to build new content and gameplay and adventures into engines that are already FINE.

Every played a game and thought "that was great, I wish there were more stories and levels set in the same gameworld." Episodic gaming is for people like that.

It also opens up the possibility of indie gaming using big budget technology which is super exciting. See: Bioware's Premium Modules for Neverwinter Nights. Really great stories and content built on an already good (if old) engine. For $5-$10 I can download and get a few more hours of high quality content added to my game.

Don't get me wrong, I like all kinds of gaming. I like fan mods and full blockbuster releases and casual downloads and retro arcade collections and everything else. Episodic gaming brings a TV show style content release model to games and I think that that's a great additional choice.

Nintendo IS episodic content

[Anonymous Coward]

"'Asking customers to pay something monthly, or something periodically, we can never expect that kind of revenue to become the significant,"

Like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Smash Bros, Pokemon...No Nintendo definitely doesn't expect its customers to pay for the same thing again and again.

Re:Nintendo IS episodic content

[The_Real_Quaid]

"Like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Smash Bros, Pokemon...No Nintendo definitely doesn't expect its customers to pay for the same thing again and again."

Yeah, and Halo 3, Doom 3, Quake 4, Grand Theft Auto 4, Final Fantasy 13, Metal Gear Solid 4... those are all original content.

Stupid Nintendo! Make something original!

Re:Nintendo IS episodic content

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the companies that made those games aren't claiming to be superior in not doing it. Nintendo is the console for self-important hypocrites.

Re:Nintendo IS episodic content

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a gap of about a decade between the new Doom/Quake and the previous versions (Quake 4 is a sequel to Quake 2, but Quake 3 was still 5 years earlier if you insist on counting it). Doom 3 was completely different to Doom 1/2, it was a 3D survival horror not a 2.5D shooter. Quake 4 went from a one-man-army shooter to squad based.

GTA 4 isn't even out yet, we have no idea what it'll be. Considering GTA 2 was futuristic and that GTA 3 completely changed the way the franchise played and was organised it could be anything. The GTA 3 "trilogy" plus "Liberty City Stories" was pretty cheeky.

Final Fantasy, hell yeah, they milk that one to the ground.

MGS4 also isn't out yet, but I've not played the series so I won't comment.

Anyway, I think my point was that dissing id software for reusing one game every 10 years isn't fair, particularly since they mix up the formula and vastly improve the technology. They'll only be on Doom 7 by the time I'm retired. I'll probably get Final Fantasy 50 for my 65th birthday, it'll be the first one I have time to complete :)

Re:Nintendo IS episodic content

[Hawkxor]

I'm not really that concerned about whether or not the game company is "stuck up".. I only care about the quality of the games, dunno about you

Re:Nintendo IS episodic content

[The_Real_Quaid]

Actually, I wasn't dissing id at all. THey are my favorite PC developer still.

I was just pointing out that that it is stupid to single out Nintendo for making sequels, when (mostly) everybody does it.

Re:Nintendo IS episodic content

[Anonymous Coward]

I was referring to the users. They are the ones that buy into Nintendo's garbage like this.

To rephrase using your style: I'm not a douchebag, dunno about you.

Good for Nintendo

[MaWeiTao]

In game advertising is garbage. It's nothing but yet another scheme to squeeze out every last penny from our pockets.

Companies have realized that the time is right for introducing this sort of scheme because consumers are generally the biggest suckers out there and are willing to accept anything. It's like they can't throw away their money quickly enough.

We all know that crappy ads thrust in your face every 15 seconds makes a game more immersive. I suppose some people could rationalize getting hit in the head by a baseball bat because it would make a game more immersive. Just wait until developers have to adjust content to satisfy the advertisers. "This headshot brought to you by Tampax tampons!"

People time and again forget that these people have few scruples and don't give a damn about immersion or gameplay quality. They care about one thing, revenue. When a company puts greed above all else the end result is invariably a low quality product.

I'm very pleased to see someone thinks differently. Certainly Nintendo is looking for success, but it's clear that they place great value in what they create. There's a reason why Nintendo has a very loyal fanbase.

Re:Good for Nintendo

[kisrael]

In game advertising is garbage. It's nothing but yet another scheme to squeeze out every last penny from our pockets.

They're not squeezing it from your pockets, they're squeezing it from your attention span.

Hopefully that doesn't exclude the Virtual Console

[Pluvius]

I think it would be silly to expect people to pay per-game for old NES properties that are worth at most a buck each (when you take into account the lack of tangible media and the destruction of scarcity that the Virtual Console would cause). A subscription fee like Gametap uses would make a lot more sense.

Rob

Too bad: Nintendo MMORPG

[Nightspirit]

That's too bad, a Nintendo MMORPG would be sweet, expecially on the wii. I'm not normally into MMORPGs (I've played a bit of FF online and WoW) and not really into nintendo games (I've had my share of mario in the early 90s) but at least it would be different. For some reason the thought of playing a goomba interests me.

Re:Too bad: Nintendo MMORPG

[Mullinator]

Actually they have said in the past that they are hoping and planning to have MMORPG's on the Wii. In other words, expect any Nintendo made MMORPG's to not have a monthly payment structure.

Re:Too bad: Nintendo MMORPG

[revlayle]

I seriously doubt they could pull off a full-featured MMORPG without any sort of monthly payment structure. The reason their online service is free now (for the DS and eventuall Wii) as it only sets up relatively-simple multipler matches or data gathering for an single instance (AC towns). However, running a "world" that never rests with 1000s upon 1000s of players requires a lot more maintenance, hardware, and cost.

Well, OK, Runescape did it... sorta. They MIGHT be able to do it. I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

He's a gamer geek CEO

[rjung2k]

Why is Nintendo the only sane console company this year?

According to Wikipedia, Mr. Iwata is a former programmer, game developer, and graphic artist -- in short, someone who most likely actually plays games instead of merely selling them.

Seems like he'd be in a good position to know what gamers really want. "If I were playing this, would I want to cough up $15/month for this? Hell no!"

More power to the gamer geeks!

Re:Viva Iwata 3

[Jerim]

Not only the NES and SNES libraries, but the Turbgrafx-16 and Genesis libraries. I am hoping that if it is a hit, they will keep adding additional systems.

I would love to have access to some of the systems that were just too costly at the time. Relive my childhood with all the toys I couldn't afford.

Revenue, or at least paying for bandwidth?

[Midnight Thunder]

I am curious. If Nintendo offers a reasonably priced console, standard priced games and free online playing, then who is going to be paying for the online services? I mean after all, there is bandwidth and infrastructure to be paid for at the content provider end. They don't need to be making a profit on the network play, but not making a loss is also important.

Re:Revenue, or at least paying for bandwidth?

[Webapprentice]

Have you noticed how incredibly lightweight the Wi-Fi connection is? It's nowhere near the feature-richness of Xbox Live.

I think Nintendo keeps its costs down with a simpler online service and lets future game sales pay for infrastructure. Also, Nintendo does merchandise licensing (Pokemon, etc.) and that generates revenues as well.

Re:Revenue, or at least paying for bandwidth?

[stonecypher]

Most of Nintendo's highly successful WiFi connection is peer to peer. That said, have you looked at bandwidth prices lately? Fourty dollars up-front at mass bandwidth prices means five years of constant heavy use just isn't a problem.

Re:Viva Iwata 3

[revlayle]

N64 too :)

Nintendo? You? Really?

[The-Bus]

I have a couple of words for Nintendo:

Pokémon Red
Pokémon Blue
Pokémon Green
Pokémon Yellow
Pokémon Gold
Pokémon Silver
Pokémon Crystal
Pokémon Ruby
Pokémon Sapphire
Pokémon Emerald
Pokémon FireRed
Pokémon LeafGreen
Pokémon Colosseum
Pokémon XD
Pokémon Ranger
Pokémon Pinball
Pokémon Pinball: Ruby and Sapphire
Pokémon Diamond and Pearl
Pokémon Trozei
Pokémon Stadium
Pokémon Stadium 2
Pokémon Snap
Pokémon Dash

Mind you, this isn't over the entire history of the company. This is the last ten years. In the US, it's a Pokémon game, on average, every four months. And side from the occasional pinball or racing game, the games were popular not for new game mechanics but for new Pokémon (or as I call it, "new episodic content").

And no in-game advertising? The entire game is advertising... for itself! The pile of money made from the sales of Pokémon cards, carrying cases, movies, books, toys is enough to suffocate anyone.

Now... I'm actually a big Nintendo fan. A HUGE one. I even liked Pokémon to an extent (Pokémon Stadium 2 has great party games). But I have to call out someone on their BS, even if it's a Nintendo exec.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[cttforsale]

I take episodic content to mean something like, buying each chapter of a novel separately. I take in game advertising to mean a reference to buying available in the real world that is not related to the game, like an ad for tampons.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pokemon is quite a different situation than episodic content. Nintendo's goal with Pokemon was not about getting one person to buy all copies of a game (in fact you couldn't collect them all with only one system) but was designed to encourage people to interact with other people who owned the game. Essentially, you can not finish the game unless you have a friend who also completes the game; thus forcing co-operation.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[Chris Burke]

Now... I'm actually a big Nintendo fan. A HUGE one. I even liked Pokémon to an extent (Pokémon Stadium 2 has great party games). But I have to call out someone on their BS, even if it's a Nintendo exec.

Right. This is the difference between being a fan and a fanboy.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[Gothic_Walrus]

Personally, I'm inclined to think that you're almost entirely wrong on this one.

First off, I think you're trying to be comprehensive here, but you forgot more than a few titles. Hey You Pikachu, Puzzle League and its GBC equivalent, Puzzle Challenge, and the trading card game spring to mind. If we're not counting those, that's fine, but then the pinball games, Snap, Dash, and (if I'm not mistaken) Ranger and Troizei shouldn't be on the list either. You can't seem to make up your mind what counts for the list, apparently.

The bigger issue, though, is whether or not the game is "episodic." By all definitions of the term I've seen...no, it's not. The games are self-contained, and you don't need to keep paying to advance the plot. You may not be able to catch all of the Pokémon, maybe, but that's not "episodic content."

Also, the games have a hell of a lot more content than you'd get in an episode. Each grouping of RPGs (think Red/Blue/Yellow) has its own plot and brings new mechanics into the mix. They are full-fledged games.

True, the games might have been popular for the Pokémon characters, but there was always, ALWAYS more to them than that. Even in the games where the characters were just used to sell the title, improvements were made. Pokémon Puzzle League, for instance, was a very nice update of Tetris Attack and added modes that the SNES version didn't have.

I'd also argue the in-game advertising. The games never, ever blatantly tell the player "Go buy a stuffed Pikachu!" or advertise any of the other spinoff products, whereas in-game ads are typically for real products that don't fit into the world. Have you seen ads for Serta matresses or Mountain Dew in the game's gyms? Didn't think so. The game spawned the merchandising, and that's entirely different...especially since the game came first.

Really, I don't see how you COULD call Pokémon episodic or accuse it of having in-game advertising. By every discussion and definition of the terms I've seen...it just doesn't, plain and simple.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"The entire game is advertising... for itself! The pile of money made from the sales of Pokémon cards, carrying cases, movies, books, toys is enough to suffocate anyone."

Erm... that's merchandising, not 'in-game advertising'. Unless those games are actually telling you to run out and buy trading cards, the difference is pretty big.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pokémon is no more episodic content than Final Fantasy or Madden or any other series. They are complete games themselves. Plus the spinnoffs aren't even RPGs. Plus the RPGs often come out in groups (Red/Blue) so it is a lot longer than 4 months between a Pokémon game.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[stonecypher]

The bigger issue, though, is whether or not the game is "episodic." By all definitions of the term I've seen...no, it's not. The games are self-contained, and you don't need to keep paying to advance the plot. You may not be able to catch all of the Pokémon, maybe, but that's not "episodic content."

In many of those instances - red, blue and yellow, fire red and leaf green, the gemstone group, the metal color group - they're the same game with 5% alternate content, and you need the full set to access a further 5% of the content. Therefore, indeed you do need to keep playing in order to advance the game, whose core is so heavily drilled that it's their motto - gotta catch 'em all. And, to catch 'em all, you need all the carts too. The various groups are essentially the same game over and over, with a slight overhaul of some external content, and a few dozen extra creatures and powers.

Pokemon is essentially the definition of episodic content.

Re:Nintendo? You? Really?

[Gothic_Walrus]

Therefore, indeed you do need to keep playing in order to advance the game, whose core is so heavily drilled that it's their motto - gotta catch 'em all.

I think this is going to go down to personal definitions, but I wouldn't consider that "advancing the game." You can get through the entire storyline and complete every other challenge the game has to offer without obtaining all of the Pokémon...and what happens when you do? You get an in-game certificate? I don't know about you, but that's not what I'd call advancing the game. :)

The various groups are essentially the same game over and over, with a slight overhaul of some external content, and a few dozen extra creatures and powers.

Again, personal preference, but I'd have to say that that defining the term like that would mean most game sequels fit the model of "episodic content," and I'm sure that that's not what the term was intended to mean. A new storyline alone would seem to be the qualifier for me; isn't episodic content primarily designed to advance one overarching storyline instead of existing in a form where it could be enjoyed by itself? You can go through Pokémon Silver without touching the Red version of the game, and while you're very heavily encouraged to catch all of the Pokémon, you don't need to.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I know I won't "win" this. Just thought I'd explain myself a bit more. :)

Re:Nintendo. Google?

[Jace of Fuse!]

because there is no prayer of anything on the Wii looking as realistic as the most realistic games on the PS3.

That may be true, but just remember the law of deminishing returns.

I'll take a PS2 game as my example. God of War. How much better would it have to look before you thought God of War totally sucked visually?

Since the Gamecube is more powerful than the PS2 (reasonably), and the Wii is somewhat more powerful than the Gamecube, I don't expect to see a shortage of excellent looking games on the Gamecube.

As realistic as the PS3/Xbox? Probably not. So far below them that it will matter? I don't expect that either.

Not everything is going to look like a cell shaded cartoon or a bubbly game full of plastic toys. Not that I mind that particular style or anything, but ...

Wii games can in fact use GCN controllers

[tepples]

Wii supports GameCube controllers. Whether that's only for backward compatibility with GC games or if Wii games will utilize it as well is yet to be seen.

Mr. Sakurai has confirmed that Super Smash Bros. Brawl for Wii can use GameCube controllers.

come on guys

[rabbot]

Why are people bringing up franchises and sequels? That is NOT what is meant by episodic content. Nintendo is basically saying they aren't going to release an unfinished product, just so they can make you pay more in the future for the rest of the game.

I applaud Nintendo for taking this stance. At least one of the big 3 has some respect for their customers.

advertising

[AyeFly]

I havent read the comments, but I much prefer real life advertisements to fake ones. If they want to simulate the real world, they should have advertisements. Nothing though, ticks me off more than fake products.

Re:advertising

[moogaloonie]

Sorry to hear that. As one of those guys who grew up on Mad magazines, Wacky Packages and SNL commercial parodies I'm a huge fan of fake products. I'd rather play GTA with its imaginary cars, stores, and products that were created by the writers/designers than a similar game with references to real products. Don't even tell me you don't like Slurm.

Re:advertising

[Hitto]

I much prefer parody. I do hope we can see more satyrical / parodic ads as in GTA.

Education and funny shit at the same time, man. Better than tampax commercials.

Re:advertising

[LKM]

Depends on the game. If the fake ads are well done, they can add to the game - Beyond Good and Evil had some interesting fake ads. I think Syndicate had something like this, too. They're set in another universe, so it makes sense to use fake ads.

Games taking place in this world, though - sports games, for example - are a bit weird if they include invented products. That's why most Nintendo sports games include ads for Nintendo (see Wave Race), which I prefer to ads for other companies because it doesn't make me feel like I got ripped off - I don't really want to pay that kind of money to watch ads for some stupid third-party company.

It's worse than that.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can easily pirate the ROMs and use Nestopia or FCEU or any other NES emulator you want (there are tons of NES emulators, but those two are the best, IMHO). Just like you can with SNES ROMs and zSNES (another awesome emulator).

Or if you want to be legal, ConsoleClassix is basically an online video game rental service, where you "rent" the ROM for a while. To be more exact, you get unlimited rentals for a monthly fee, although they let anyone sample their service by playing the NES games for free.

Personally, I just pirate 'em at this point, though :)

Pikmin 2?

[dk4]

Pikmin 2 had in-game advertisement, and that's straight out of Nintendo...

Re:Pikmin 2?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, Pikmin's one of the occaisons where you don't really notice though. GOOD in-game ads have never bothered me--if it makes sense, it's fine.

Seeing a billboard advertising Coca Cola in the Middle Earth will mean someone's getting a nasty email.

Re:Pikmin 2?

[LKM]

But all those products were depicted as trash and waste. Did those companies really pay Nintendo to have them included in the game?

Re:Pikmin 2?

[Duds]

I don't remember a single brand name in pikmin 2.

I remember familiar coloured waste.

Re:Pikmin 2?

[Anubis_Ascended]

I believe what you're referring to is "product placement," like the Dell laptops you see Dr. Weir's team using on Stargate Atlantis. "In-game advertising" in my eyes are billboards for, say, The Incredibles, etc., but that's just me. :)

MMORPG doesn't imply monthly fees.

[Spaceman40]

Just look at Guild Wars.

Re:Thank G.d.

[Hitto]

You see, I don't really care about the episodic content. I bought Oblivion - PC Collector's edition with the map, and the septim and all, but I'm not afraid to say I pirated the "extra" content. I paid for a full game, and it's engine, if bethsoft want to make money while releasing new stuff, it's totally cool by me!
But I'll definitely never PAY for it. They'll still make money in the end anyway, since I thought I'd shelled out my hard-earned cash for a "complete" game.

Yea

[MeridianBlade]

I can deal with ads

He didn't say he was against it

[Subacultcha]

If you read what he says, he's just saying he doesn't think it would be a significant part of their revenue. He doesn't say that Nintendo won't do ads or episodic content, just that the majority of their income will come from new games.

The fact that he didn't rule it out completely seems kind of significant.

Duh...

[Anonymous Coward]

he was talking about Super Mario Galaxy!

Re:Hopefully that doesn't exclude the Virtual Cons

[MBCook]

I think we will see the per-game fee, which depending on how much virtual console you intent to play isn't bad (as long as they don't do something stupid like make the games expire after 90 days).

That said, I really like your Gametap idea. I think that would be an excellent way to offer the virtual console service.

Both would be ideal. Only interested in one or two games? Just buy 'em. Want to play 'em all? That will be $7.50 a month.

That would be fantastic.

Re:Nintendo. Google?

[Blakey Rat]

It's hard to judge something before it exists. Before I played Chronicles of Riddick the game, I would have said it's impossible to make a truly great videogame from a movie property, for instance.

Why won't we wait until we have more than .hack//net.com/whatever as examples before we make our final decision?

Oh, hell no.

[GrumblyStuff]

Are you dissing Pokemon Snap?

Does it?

[GrumblyStuff]

The Wii has flash storage, not your standard HDD. Beyond less worries of mechanical failure, this says to me long term storage (NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, etc. roms; not game updates, patches, or saves).

And the most stupid part of advertisment

[aliquis]

Is that you as consumer also have to pay for that crap if you get the product.
I remember that Pepsi and McDonalds each invested over 1 billion dollar / year in advertising, who pays for that?

But the most boring part is that it pollute our environment (I don't know how to put it, I don't mean with chemicals and stuff, but with logotypes) everywhere. In towns, magazines, TV programs, web pages, and you don't get paid for watching that shit either.

If everyone decided to not buy any heavily advertised product we could get rid of all this shit.

Re:Hopefully that doesn't exclude the Virtual Cons

[aliquis]

And it could pay for the infrastructure, they don't have to earn that much money on old games which noone would buy in case they wasn't there anyway.

Re:Nintendo. Google?

[tukkayoot]

That may be true, but just remember the law of deminishing returns.

Absolutely true, and I think Nintendo was wise to take their current tact with the Wii. The hardware got powerful enough with the X-Box/GameCube, if not the Dreamcast/PS2 to allow developers a broad range of visual expression and style for their games. Although more definition and detail can certainly be an even nicer treat for the eyes and is necessary to produce more "realistic" looking games, more detail is certainly not necessary to create games that can make a great impact visually. Diminishing returns are very clearly starting to kick, especially when you take a look at what it costs to make games that do strive for that extra level of detail.

It doesn't a monsterously powerful system to produce some very cool looking games. Style matters much more than a few extra polygons and slightly more detailed bump maps anyway. Compare World of Warcraft to EverQuest II. EverQuest II probably has the more technically demanding/impressive graphics on paper (as well as aiming for, and probably achieving a slightly more realistic look), but in the eyes of most, World of Warcraft has a much stronger art style and thus is the better looking game. Sometimes the challenge of working with certain limitations can produce brilliant results.

I am glad Microsoft and Sony (and NVIDIA, ATI and IBM, etc.) are still around to push one another to new graphical peaks, but I'm also glad Nintendo is taking a breather and giving developers a chance to do the same.

Ever used battle.net?

[patio11]

Battle.net is Blizzard's free online service for Diablo, Starcraft, and the Warcraft series (I hear you can even play war2 on there now). The online play, which only a fraction of your users (granted, a rabid fraction which will play for *years*) ever use, is just a loss leader. Bandwidth costs are pretty minimal, since you only really do matchmaking and CD-key authentication. The actual game server is one (or more) of the client machines. If you assume that a) your corporation is going to continue staying in business b) you'll still be using the same technology for delivering online gaming and c) server power continues to increase, then you only have to budget for the service for the lifetime of the game you're releasing today -- you can pay for tomorrow's service with chump change piggybacking on the costs for serving tomorrow's game.

Approaching the "Uncanny Valley"

[7Prime]

A few months back, in some obscure post, someone talked about the "Uncanny Valley", the place wherein trying to achieve realism, you get something that's ALMOST realistic, but because of its slight differences, is actually very disconcerting. It may be that games in this next generation may be approaching this area, which would be a total disaster for gaming companies. From what it looks like, Sony and MS have staked their systems livelihoods on graphics that fall right in the middle of the Uncanny Valley. Nintendo, on the other hand, with it's attention on things other than UltraRealism(tm), may be sitting safely on the other side. As realistic as the graphics look like they may be on the PS3, I would never mistake them for motion picture footage. Even with massive render farms, computer graphics have only just begun to fool the brain into thinking their looking at movie footage in the last 4 years or so, it will take real-time rendering quite a while to do that and safely climb out of the valley, MAYBE by the next generation, but I'm not even betting on it. Two generations from now, we'll see.

Nintendo has done something very intelligent over the years, by staking the bulk of their titles on purposefully unrealisticly styled graphics: no matter how good the graphics of a game get, the game next year will make the current game look "old" and somewhat less playable. Other entertainment and art forms aren't so starkly "now" and "then". When I go down to the local movie rental house, I'm probably just as likely to pick out a movie from the 1960s as I am to pick out one that came out last year, and the same goes for music: Beatles albums still sell. There may come a time when a great game will sell, steadily, for many decades. When I look back, I'm probably just as likely to replay Zelda: Ocarina of Time as Wind Waker, in fact, I still haven't decided which game APPEARS more contemporary, they're just different. However, the choice between Quake 2 and Halo 2 becomes much more apparent. In a year and a half, Halo 3 and the next generation of FPSs will obscure Halo 2, and Halo 2s sales will immediately cease. Gameplay, dialog, storyline, these things are practically ageless, and thus have much longer market value.

Re:Nintendo. Google?

[stonecypher]

The "gamer" demographic is not growing significantly in size

It amazes me that in this day and age of harping about older gamers anyone should still believe this. Gaming's growing faster now than it ever has in the past. The only reason game budgets are getting this large is that the market will support them.