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Hardware Hacking a Voting Machine in 4 Minutes

goombah99 writes "Bev Harris of BlackBoxVoting.org has acquired an actual Diebold Acu-vote ballot scanner. Rummaging through King County's trash, she managed to get her hands on some of their tags and seals. She has since demonstrated a successful penetration of the seals without breaking them ... all in under 4 minutes with no training or technical skills required. There's a nice how-to with photos over at Verified Voting New Mexico." More from goombah99 below. "The demo is particularly relevant in light of the recent experience in Ohio in which there were large discrepancies between the electronic record and the paper trail, and also since many counties still permit the machines to be taken home by individuals before voting day (as a means of distributing them to precincts). These 'sleepover' machines were involved in the contentious narrow-margin San Diego Election, and are in continued practice in many states. Moreover, it's common practice for counties to contract out deliveries to third parties, such as in New Mexico where in one election, unlicensed delivery drivers took the machines on an unauthorized field trip and only got caught when they crashed the delivery truck after a stop at Hooters. The good news here is that the penetrated Diebold system in the photo essay is an optical scan system. It's not a touchscreen electronic voting system, so there is a paper trail. What hack really shows is that without mandatory random spot checks on the paper ballots, these may be as potentially vulnerable as the touchscreen direct recording electronic voting systems. It's perhaps worth noting that the open source voting system being developed by the Open Voting Consortium features a 100% reconciliation of every single paper ballot with an independent electronic record."

482 comments

  1. they just hate our freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful


    no really, if thats your idea of democracy you can keep it

    signed

    191 Non US countries

    1. Re:they just hate our freedom by Capsaicin · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if those 191 Non US countries all have reputable voting systems ...

      That being said, I'm glad I live in a country (Australia) where we still use paper ballots; where the election is organised by an independent commission and where they are counted at the polling station by volunteers, with representatives of all the parties standing over their shoulders and watching the tallying like hawks. I may not like the winner of the election (I don't!), but at least I'm reasonably certain the result reflects the will of the People.

      With voting machines and elections controlled by local party apparatchiks the best it seems one can hope for is that both sides' cheating cancels each other out.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
  2. My Perception Has Changed Again by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My initial concerns about these voting machines was someone obtaining one through other means than stealing one from the government and then creating trojan software for it. I mean, if other people can buy these ... then they can study them and learn how to hack them. On the converse, if we can't study them, how do we know the government isn't rigging them?

    So there was this interesting catch-22 where you couldn't let them into the general population for fear of a trojan being created and inserted into a group of normal ones on election day. But you also can't trust your government. Especially not the current one in the United States and considering the voluntary resignation of the Diebold CEO, I think we should at least ask for third party verification of these machines. In fact, I for one consider Black Box Voting to be a champion protector of my right to vote for publishing this information. You might not feel as strongly about them but had I not read two articles from them, I would still be ready to use a voting machine in the next presidential election.

    Black Box Voting had me convinced these machines were at least a liability and at best a luddite's fear. After reading this quick "how-to" about these machines, my perception is no longer that we need to define how these machines are bought, sold & handled ... but instead my opinion is now that we may be trying to use something that shouldn't be used at all.

    Product created with shoddy security features. Get rid of Diebold and hope the market brings a new contestant into the ring for the much sought after prize of the American public's voting machine contract!

    The Diebold Acu-vote has failed as a product that requires the utmost security. I am a dissatisfied consumer and I sincerely hope every citizen of the United States agrees with me.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "The Diebold Acu-vote has failed as a product that requires the utmost security. I am a dissatisfied consumer and I sincerely hope every citizen of the United States agrees with me."

      Unfortunately, you're not Diebold's customer. The elected officials who in turn buy the machines responsible for reelecting themselves are Diebold's customers.

    2. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Azeron · · Score: 0, Troll

      You know the problem of voter fraud/rigging machines could be greatly simplified if we just did away with the ballot being secret. If we had an open process where you had to announce your vote before and review by a bipartisan comittee who could then tally and report the vote in an official count. Then all these probelms would be resolved. If again, you are willing to make voting a matter of public record.

    3. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by jimstapleton · · Score: 1
      My initial concerns about these voting machines was someone obtaining one through other means than stealing one from the government and then creating trojan software for it.
      When, one election, you see millions of write ins for president, where the write-in is Linus Travolds or Larry Flint, you'll know your fears have come to pass.
      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    4. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
      If again, you are willing to make voting a matter of public record.
      My boss is a hardcore Republican. I am probably a moderate Democrat. I avoid political issues with him even though he repeatedly brings them up and complains about "typical Democrats."

      He's not a nice guy and I could easily see him overlooking a raise if he knew I voted Democrat in the last two presidential elections. He could, of course, claim it was something else even if it wasn't. Do you want me to suffer for my political views? Do you want your family, friends & coworkers to know who you vote for? Some of the people I spend my life with have different opinions than I do. This is fine but I don't want the situation exacerbated.
    5. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by jZnat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But we as the American taxpayers pay for it, so we are the customers.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    6. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      What was the original reason for the secret ballot? Was it to prevent coercion?

    7. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by SQLGuru · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree that voting records should not be public. I had the "honor" of my first gubanatorial vote being in Louisiana. My choices were Edwin Edwards (convicted crook) and David Duke (grand-poo-bah of the KKK). None of the above was not on the ballot. I'm sure a lot of people don't want anyone to know who they voted for in that election.

      (BTW, if you aren't up on your Louisiana political history, the crook won.)

      Layne

    8. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by 'nother+poster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes. To prevent coersion and retaliation so that people could vote their conscience, even if their beliefs were unpopular.

    9. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Chaffar · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The Diebold Acu-vote has failed as a product that requires the utmost security.
      Honestly how hard would it have been for them to adapt their ATM's to become a voting machine?

      Press the button next to the name of the person you want to vote for. Thank you for voting. Yes, it IS as simple as that.

      This is the part where you're suppose to realize that it's because Acu-Vote was never designed to be "secure" :)

    10. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Azeron · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "Do you want me to suffer for my political views?"
      I am trying to see where I said I want you to suffer for your political views
      Perhaps you could point out to the place where I said that.
      Needless to say besides your sophistry, I was simply pointing out you are always going to have these kinds of problems in a closed balloting system but one where you go before a comittee and verify your vote while the tapes are rolling can be simply verified by anyone, we could even stream it over the internet

      Again, not to advocate open voting, but to simply point out the problems you stated aren't really all that bac. You can get another job with someone who doesn't care who you vote for, as oppossed to working for some bastard you don't like. And if your friends or family know who you voted for, and you can't look them in the face afterwards and defend your position, maybe just maybe you voted the wrong way.

      I would also like to point out, this was how democracy used to be. Every citizen stood up in a crowded hall or outside depending on where you were, and your name was called from a roster and you stated vote in front of everyone. It used to be a day for celebration and parting as the various poltical parties would bring out tons of alchool and food.

      So the question really What bothers you more, an Unelected Government who stole power from the people, or everyone knowing who you voted for?

    11. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by __aajfby9338 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Azeron wrote:

      You know the problem of voter fraud/rigging machines could be greatly simplified if we just did away with the ballot being secret.

      No, that would be far worse. The whole point of having secret ballots is to help prevent outright buying of votes. If ballots are not secret, then person A can offer person B (and persons C, D, E...) money for them to vote a particular way (or alternately, threaten them if they don't do so), then easily verify that they voted as they were told to. With secret ballots, person A can't tell how their bribed or threatened voters voted, so they can't verify that their coerced voters earned their bribes or dodged their beatings.

      Making ballots public would only open up another way to subvert the system, and do so in a way that's even harder to detect than any shenanigans with the voting machines or ballots.

    12. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by 1984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem to miss the point of a closed ballot: voter security. If you can check who someone voted for, you can intimidate and threaten individuals regarding their vote. Imagine large chaps stood outside the voting station encouraging you to vote a particular way having the luxury of knowing exactly how you voted when you're on your way back out.

      Not that groups can't terrorize entire districts suspected of leaning toward the other side, but it's all that much easier when you can point the finger at individuals. What the parent poster is talking about is the thin end of this particular wedge, and you're being obtuse describing that as sophistry.

    13. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Funny
      BTW, if you aren't up on your Louisiana political history, the crook won.

      We're talking about politics here. It doesn't matter who won, that's still true.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Again, not to advocate open voting, but to simply point out the problems you stated aren't really all that bac. You can get another job with someone who doesn't care who you vote for, as oppossed to working for some bastard you don't like. And if your friends or family know who you voted for, and you can't look them in the face afterwards and defend your position, maybe just maybe you voted the wrong way.

      Is the ivory tower up your ass cold? Does it chafe?

      You can't necessarily just get another job. People with families to support can't always make the decision they'd like to make.

      Anyway, the vote was closed not only for that reason, but to prevent people from selling their vote. You can't sell your vote if it can't be proven which way you voted.

      So the question really What bothers you more, an Unelected Government who stole power from the people, or everyone knowing who you voted for?

      Mu. What I want is freedom. I can't truly posess that without BOTH of those things being untrue. Thus opening the vote is not a solution at all. You've presented a false dichotomy. This is not an either-or situation.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no option to spoil your ballot? (like ticking both boxes)

    16. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Azeron · · Score: 0

      That is true, but beleive it or not, it still happens today. Governor Corizine of NJ was alledged to have sent out campaign workers on election day for his first senatorial bid with packets of $75 to hand out to anyone on the street who would vote his way in heavily democratic districts. while its not implausable that any individual voted differently, it was more likely a prodding to do what they would have done if they cared enough to vote in the first place. Others it would be a matter of honor to vote the way they agreed to in exchange for the money

      Another scenerio where this occurred during the 2000 election where Hillary Clinton amnanged to sell the freedom of an Orthordox Jew to his congregation in exchange for thier votes. It was verified through vote counts and durign the wee morning hours of Clinton's last day in office the crook was freed via presidential pardon. No one was ever brought up on charges, even though it was obvious what had happened.

      The problem with the scenerio you came up with is that, it already happens and for all intents and purposes its too expensive to bribe enough people to make it happen. the only practical way to bribe people these days is with official acts of government, and that is not illegal. you know "vote for me and will give you a new 'drug benefit'" or "a new highway" and the list goes on and on.
      Like I said before, this is an overstated problem

    17. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by XenoRyet · · Score: 1
      You didn't say explicitly that you wanted him to suffer for his political views, but he did outline a clear and likely situation resutling from your suggestion where that is exactly what would happen.

      The problem with open voting is this: Right wing boss, left wing employee, or reversed, it doesn't matter. The boss is a jerk, and the employee can't afford to lose his job just now. So he votes in line with his boss to protect his job. That's tampering with the system just as much as ballot stuffing, or cracking a voting machine is. In my opinion it's worse, because it is far easier to do, and far more likely. What a-hole boss is going to take the time to crack a dibold machine, yet how many of them would intimidate their employees into voting the "right way"?

      Yes, there are problems with a closed voting system, but those problems are smaller, and more easily protected against than those of an open voting system. The problem lies in the fact that Diebold apparently isn't interested in taking the fairly easy steps nessisary to deal with those problems.

      --
      If forums teach us anything, it is that logic and critical thinking should be required courses in the public schools.
    18. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by HeroreV · · Score: 0, Troll
      With secret ballots, person A can't tell how their bribed or threatened voters voted
      You're really retarded if you think that.

      briber: "If you vote for Mr. Evil and take a picture of the ballot with this camera, I'll give you a Big Mac."
      homeless person: "Make it a Happy Meal."
    19. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by __aajfby9338 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ten minutes later:

      homeless person: "Want a camera? Only $20."

      random guy on street corner: "How about I give you this sixpack of beer instead?"

      homeless person: "Sold."

      ;-)

    20. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by cyberianpan · · Score: 1
      He's not a nice guy and I could easily see him overlooking a raise if he knew I voted Democrat in the last two presidential elections. He could, of course, claim it was something else even if it wasn't. Do you want me to suffer for my political views?


      Actually publishing your vote leads to worse problems than that. For example consider the amount spent by election candidates... they could then try buying votes, considering voter turnout is ony 50% I reckon there's a large untapped swing market ;-)

    21. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Azeron · · Score: 0

      You didn't say explicitly that you wanted him to suffer for his political views, but he did outline a clear and likely situation resutling from your suggestion where that is exactly what would happen.

      thats like me saying "becuase you don't support open voting, you want the election stolen". Sure anything can happen, but I didn't advocate him suffering anymore than he advocates stealing election. the point of the post is to point out that the problem with coming up with a secure and verifiable vote tally is because in our current system is it is structually impossible to do so becuase the only method that can produce such a tally is DIRECT OBSERVATION and that is prohibitied.

      Yes, there are problems with a closed voting system, but those problems are smaller, and more easily protected against than those of an open voting system. The problem lies in the fact that Diebold apparently isn't interested in taking the fairly easy steps nessisary to deal with those problems.
      That is a matter of opinion, and as for the voting machines, the problem isn't diebold or thier methods, it is the inherent nature of secret balloting itself which makes it prone to corruption. If we were to bring up texas in 1960 or florida in 2000 or Ohio in 2004 or Detriot in any election, we could make a pretty good argument on the merits of open voting vs secret balloting. But you discount it because in certain instances it may link personal responsibility to the way one votes.

    22. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by sgt_doom · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The crux of the matter is that voting in the USA has been privatized. The only solution is the creation of a nonpartisan (meaning no elected officials of either party) governmental body to establish uniform voting processes and standards throughout the entire country --- with enforced oversight.

      [ It's 2006 and Osama still has a job -- do you still have a job????? ]

    23. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure you didn't mean that my fears would be finally able to pass?

      I realize neither is qualified to run a country even though each is highly skilled in his chosen field, but the only difference then between them and most every federal and state candidate from the last fifty years is that they're good at something other than being lawyers.

    24. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is the same for me. Only I'm afraid of the Democrats, who in my state have a history of persecuting those who disagree with them. A former governor used to have people followed after opposition rallies and after their identity had been assertained he was known to call them at home and threaten them. This isn't my boss giving me a hard time this is my government attacking me because I disagree. But it seems to be ok with everyone because this particular administration is controlled by Democrats.

    25. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Psykosys · · Score: 1

      Touching.

    26. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by compro01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      i may be a technophile, but i still prefer our old fashioned secret paper ballot that we still use up here in Canada, which goes into a cardboard box, which is then counted by human eyes. sure, it is a bit more error prone, but it is significantly more difficult to rig, as you'd have to bribe quite a number of people counting the votes.

      i would still prefer to keep my vote secret to the majority of the population. if you ask me, i'll likely tell you, but the thing would be that I choose who i want to tell.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    27. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Arterion · · Score: 0

      I think a good solution is to give an individual a randomly-generated ID when they vote. A list of the IDs and their cast ballot would be available to the public. So you could, for example, hop online, put in your ID, and see if you really voted for who you punched on the ballot. This would also allow independent review of the results, by simply getting all the data for district and tallying the electronic record of the votes. As far as selling votes goes... U.S. politics is little more than a sell-out game for the most part anyway, so big deal if someone sells their vote. The person the voted for probably sold-out to lobbyists, so big deal. And with the amount of money spent on advertising these days, and the observed relationship between votes:advertising dollars, it's already money for votes. The "selling votes" idea is pretty antiquated, anyway. It wouldn't be economically feasible to buy out enough people to win for the most part. The population of the U.S. is many, many times what it was when the system was developed. In a municipality of a few hundred, selling votes might have been a big deal. But in a municipality of a few hundred thousand, it's a pretty laughable strategy.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    28. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Moofie · · Score: 1

      What a nice ideal. Unfortunately, the people with the moneys vote against you.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    29. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by 955301 · · Score: 1

      Do you want me to suffer for my political views?

      It appears you already are...

      --
      You are checking your backups, aren't you?
    30. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "So the question really What bothers you more, an Unelected Government who stole power from the people, or everyone knowing who you voted for?"

      The only answer to that is "false dichotomy".

    31. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by 'nother+poster · · Score: 1

      But you discount it because in certain instances it may link personal responsibility to the way one votes.

      Oh my. You get funnier everytime I read your little rant. So, which personal responsibility takes precident? Keeping your job so your family can eat, not being beaten/killed by the enforcers outside the polling place so your family doesn't have to suffer, selling your vote to the highest bidder so you can make a quick buck, or being a good citizen who votes their conscience and suffers for it because they hold beliefs that are unpopular even if the other extreme examples would never come to pass? Transparent voting is orders of magnitude worse than existing voter fraud due to its nature. Besides, even if people vote on video tape as you suggest I guess you never heard of the cutting room floor have you? Your method can be rigged too and exposes people to danger and ridicule. Whoo Hoo way to go!

    32. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > I'm sure a lot of people don't want anyone to know who they voted for in that election.

      Why not? The state Republican Party was passing out bumper stickers with "This time vote for the crook." on em. Duke certainly wasn't welcome in Republican ranks. Just a fluke of our crazy open primary system allowed the asshat to slide into the runoff.

      Fortunately I wasn't in the state for that election cycle, instead I had a choice almost as easy to make, W over Ann Richards across the border in TX.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    33. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Sarisar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Can you do that if it was electronic? I don't just mean the GP, but can you actually spoil a ballot on an electronic voting system?

      Failing that I guess you don't vote if you don't want to pick one. I know in Oz they have mandatory voting, and according to several Aussies I spoke to the political parties do a shock campaign - vote the other guy in and the world will explode - and so the idiots (who wouldn't vote if they didn't have to) vote for the party with the worst shock campaign.

      Should point out this was just the Aussies I talked politics with (which wasn't many) so feel free to correct me :P

    34. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by aplusjimages · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My brother-in-law was working for this insurance company during the 2004 election and he sported a John Kerry sticker on his personal car. Well a customer saw him walking to his car during work and confronted him about it and asked him to remove it, but he refused since he owned the car and it had nothing to do with the company he worked for.

      The next day at work they held a company meeting and asked all employees to remove any political stickers from his car. He thought it was total crap until he saw that a majority of the employees were Bush supporters.

      I know the feeling of having to hide your political beliefs. I live in Bush Country and everywhere you go its anti-liberal this and stupid dems that.

      The terrorist don't have to work too hard to take away are freedoms because we will do it to ourselves just fine.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    35. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Azeron · · Score: 0

      Talk about rediculous objections and orders of magnitude and look at your post. You state as a matter of fact that all of sudden people would start all acorss the country attacking people for whom they voted for including murder and extorition. Yah I have heard of the cutting room floor, but what does that have to do with a live stream? Kinda hard to cut a live event. kinda of hard to extort all the witnesses to an open event. In the end your screed holds no water.

      So in the end why should people have to suffer a government they did not elect and may not be able to unelect becuase the ones in power count all the votes? It's like Stalin said, "it is not who you vote for, it's who counts the votes". that is several orders of magnitude worse.

    36. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by AngryNick · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Product created with shoddy security features.

      I have two locks on my front door AND an alarm system. Hell, even my crappy 1999-era desktop came with a case alarm. You'd think that DieBold would have installed something that would start beeping, flashing, or explode after you open the top on the case or pull the memory card.

      Did Blackbox look for other, less obvious, IDS that may be in place?

    37. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by BobTheLawyer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Definitely agree, but I'm not sure it is more error prone. With a sufficient number of eyes checking each ballot, and representatives of the candidates scrutinising the checking, it's actually quite difficult to make a mistake. I've attended several counts in the UK with 40,000 or so ballots being counted: when there's been a recount, the margin of error has been very small or even zero.

    38. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by geoffspear · · Score: 1
      He thought it was total crap until he saw that a majority of the employees were Bush supporters.

      I don't care if the majority of his fellow employees were in favor of reanimating Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin and putting them on a ticket together; it's still total crap. Anyone who's only against suppressing political speech when he believes a majority of the speech that will be suppressed agrees with him is an idiot. Would he be happier with a "No Pro-Bush stickers" policy that allowed pro-Kerry stickers than he is with a "no political stickers at all" policy? If so, he's exactly the sort of person who makes worrying about stolen elections necessary in the first place.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    39. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Glass+Lizard · · Score: 1

      Every election I've voted in has had multiple positions on the ballot. Wouldn't spoiling the ballot invalidate the entire thing? Also, even if you can't spoil an electronic ballot, there should be a write-in option. If you don't consider any of the candidates qualified, can't you just write in "no confidence?" I once considered voting against everyone running for a certain position and worried that if I just left the slot blank it would be considered an error instead of a statement.

    40. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by 'nother+poster · · Score: 1

      Have you ever done any research on vote buying and vote extortion in the 1920's and 30's? I'm guessing not. How about the political machines of the 19th and earlier 20th centuries. I have and that is how I can claim those things would happen, because they have happened. We are no more enlightened now than then. I also stated that if by some miracle those atrocities didn't come to pass I guarantee that people would be ridiculed for their beliefs in your system because people who simply tell people they voted a certain way are held up to ridicule now and your system would open up everyone to that not just those who wish to voluntarily do so. Also what you propose opens up the field of vote selling beyond any political bosses wildest dream, but I'm assuming that you are good with vote selling.

      As to a live stream you obviously haven't watched a baseball game lately. They constantly edit the feeds to insert advertisements in place of existing one on the backstops and field boards and edit out or change the crowd sounds that are transmitted. I assume you will claim that that could be addressed,and it can, but no easier than it would be to fix the anonymous voting systems.

      There are ways that keep anonymity and accountability to a higher standard than what is used today. They are both requirements for good elections.

    41. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by rossifer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Public ballots allow shady people to head into neighborhoods, escort normal people over to polling stations, and threaten them with harm if they don't vote for Mr. X. Public voting is not just bad, it's extraordinarily bad.

      You ever wonder how despots in various dictatorships around the world get 98% and 99% votes? Public voting is your answer. You take the red ballot and the blue ballot into the voting booth, in complete secrecy you put whichever ballot you want into the box, then you go outside and give the blue ballot to the guy with the gun.

      Spectacularly bad idea.

      What we need are verifiable ballots. Not public ballots.

      Regards,
      Ross

    42. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Soon-to-be+Has-been · · Score: 0, Insightful

      You should realize that 16,000+ Counties, who work with/under 50 (sorry, DC) State Secretaries, pay for voting systems that are used 2-4 times in as many years. The rest of the time, other than the brief spin-up period prior to election, they and their supporting servers, software, personnel, etc., are a government managed commodity, which means they are handled as cheaply as possible. Think big, centralized, minimally secure county warehouses; lowest cost bidders to maintain; cheapest, quickest scope of work for programming. Security, then, is just an another un-funded mandate that the county/state elections board cannot afford.

      Meanwhile the federal efforts, under the Elections Assistance Commission, create "voluntary" guidelines that try to be universal and end up so vague as to be useless.

    43. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Lijemo · · Score: 1

      You know the problem of voter fraud/rigging machines could be greatly simplified if we just did away with the ballot being secret.

      I wish I had the cite now, but I remember hearing about a factory owner back before the vote was made secret. As a show of power, he would march his employees out to the ballots, they would all vote for his favored candidate, and then they'd be marched back to work.

      after all, if you don't want to keep this job, there's a dozen other guys out there whou would love to have it...

      Even if there were laws preventing one from being so blatent about it-- how do you prove that you missed the promotion or were first in line for the lay-offs because your boss didn't like the way you voted. Or that the discretionary portion of your grade was because the prof didn't like how you voted. Or that when you came up for tenure, the reason you didn't make it was because a powerful person or two on the commitee didn't like how you voted. Or that the reason you didn't get that great job was because the search commitee looked up your record and... etc. etc.

    44. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by aplusjimages · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wow you need to take some medication. I heard the vain pop in your neck from where I'm sitting. Let me clarify. My brother-in-law thought it was total crap that the old lady try to get him in trouble for having a sticker on his car for a political candidate she didn't agree with. He thought it was awesome when her plan kind of back fired and caused the removal of stickers for the political candidate she was most likely in favor of. He doesn't agree that one party should be censored, while another isn't.

      There is too much political tension in this country. People online are even entertaining the idea of a civil war. It's getting out of hand and people need to step back a little and remember we are all citizens of the same country. We aren't enemies.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    45. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Brickwall · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, in Canada and Great Britain - not sure about Oz - you can formally "decline" your ballot if you feel no candidate is worth your vote. Declined ballots are counted separately, and are not considered spoiled. I've done it!

      --
      What was once true, is no longer so
    46. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by zacronos · · Score: 1

      > a bipartisan comittee who could then tally and report the vote in an official count

      I think this is a great idea, because Republicans and Democrats would never agree to work together against anyone (*cough* third party candidates *cough*).

    47. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Which is why cameras are forbidden within the booth, and they've been talking about banning cell phones with cameras.

      However, the ability to 'prove' who you voted for (Note cameras can't do it, as people could just take the picture and get a new ballot.) isn't the same as any random person being about to find out who you voted for.

      There is no 100% surefire method of making a vote secret in all circumstances. Hell, just making people swear a statement as to how they voted would probably get mostly the truth. But having someone demand to know how you voted for is obviously improper, either by making you 'prove' it while in the booth, or just threatening you if you don't tell them, even if you can lie.

      What we can do is make other people doing this obvious to the voter, which can't happen if the votes are publically associated with the voter. If anyone can look it up, and suddenly you're being passed up for promotion after an election, you'll wonder 'Is this because I voted for X?' especially after you look up your boss and the people who get promoted and find they vote for Y. Whereas if they would have required your cooperation to find out how you voted, and didn't try, well, then, it's not.

      And just putting their name on it is 'publically associated' if people can watch the counting. (Which they have to be able to do, or you're inviting even more fraud.)

      This is why absentee ballots aren't a big deal. Right now, people could demand others vote absentee and show their ballots before sending it off. But it is obviously improper for someone to even ask you to do that, and thus people don't. Whereas if they just 'knew' how you voted, without your participation, you'd never know if they even had looked or not, which would produce a rather obvious chilling effect on voting.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    48. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by BalanceOfJudgement · · Score: 1
      it is structually impossible to do so becuase the only method that can produce such a tally is DIRECT OBSERVATION and that is prohibitied.
      Not at all. With punch cards, or even "write an X next to the candidate you vote for", nobody puts their name on the ballot - and yet it is perfectly countable when someone looks at the ballot to tally the vote. You get direct observation, without knowing whose vote you're tallying.

      Closed voting works just fine when the voter's identity is anonymous and you have a concrete, verifiable voting record (e.g., one on paper).
      --

      We are the fire that lights our world.. and we are the fire that consumes it.
    49. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by BEHiker57W · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For the record, the bumper sticker read "Vote for the crook. It's important."

    50. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No kidding. Linus can actually recognize competant people and assign them to useful domains, as opposed using things like FEMA for political purposes. I suspect he'd have a better foreign policy, but frickin Pat Buchanan has a better foreign policy than out current president, so the bar is pretty low. Of course, he can't be president, he wasn't born here.

      I don't know about Larry Flynt, but at least he's pretty successful at his business, and we won't have idiotic pretend pandering to the religious right.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    51. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Pope · · Score: 1

      We have that in Canada; however, our voting is a hell of a lot easier because we don't have local Propositions and other positions thrown onto the same ballot: it's Federal MP or nothing. That's why our results are so quick, other than being a much smaller country population-wise vs. the USA.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    52. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by afidel · · Score: 1

      ATM's themselves aren't all that secure, it's the banking system that is secure. The ATM's rely on IBM (or other) brand hardware crypto cards to provide secure communication with the banks. The ATM cabinets are wired up to monitored alarms. Finally all of the ATM transactions are verified by the very carefully audited code at the banks and trading houses. Compared to the effort put into protecting money mere votes are nothing since we as a society have determined not to put the resources into accomplishing the same level of protection.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    53. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by JDAustin · · Score: 1

      Both sides need to step back.

      Come to the SF Bay Area w/ a Bush sticker and they will not only ask you to remove it, they vandalize your car while removing it themselves. I've found that while both sides of the spectrum can be apprehensive of the other sides views, those on the far left will go much farther in espousing their views while trying to suppess others then those on the far right.

    54. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      I live in South Carolina and had friends literally ran off the road for pro-Democrat stickers on their cars (and vandalism is, of course, a given). The red-state/blue-state divide is cracking this country apart.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    55. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We aren't enemies.

      When an environment exists where the moderate or the centrist is attacked by both sides for supporting the other side because they attempt honest and open discourse - you most certainly have enemies.

    56. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by shawngarringer · · Score: 1

      LOL! Thats rich. Republicans shout at you for being "Anti American" or "Hating America" or tell you that you'll go to hell since your not republican. I think you'll find most democrats are FAR more level headed than that.

      -Shawn

    57. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by howlingmoki · · Score: 1

      > We aren't enemies. Tell that to *them*.

    58. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      The red-state/blue-state divide is cracking this country apart.

      Politics of Division & Hatred. Its far easier to convince someone you are right if you don't bother with reasonable arguements. Ann Coulter makes a living claiming people who disagree with her nutjob point of view are commiting treason, today I read a forwarded email from a very intelligent person that claimed everyone not current or ex-military.police/fire/etc was a sheep with their head in the sand. My grandmother oalmost was ill because I'd rather have an ex-marine and Vietnam vet who protested the war he just returned from (I know we could have one that one if it weren't for all those damned hippies 6,000 miles away) than a party-boy failed businessman who froze for 7 minutes in a classroom when our country was attacked (seriously, he put our counry at risk because he didn't want to scare a classroom full of kids by excusing himself from the room? How do people justify this foolishness?).

      Which isn't to say the left doesn't have its share of nutcases and extremists too. Its just that when I eliminate the noise from both sides frothing nuts, the democrats seem to be the party of fiscal responsibility, that seems to have the most control of their extremists, thats most willing to but out and let me lead my life.

    59. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by modecx · · Score: 1

      I see where you're going, but I think the public availability of voting records should be obligatory.

      You see, It'll make it easier for my plan, Operation Coyote, where we teleport Acme Anvils directly over the heads of republicans, to come to frutation. So, no worries.

      --
      Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
    60. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by mfrank · · Score: 1

      You know, if you ask the poll workers, they'll give you a replacement ballot. Even after you've already taken a picture of it.

    61. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    62. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by flogic42 · · Score: 1

      If I were in your shoes, I would not try to hide my political opinions. If my boss gave me much trouble for it, I'd quit and find another job.

      A real friend is someone who knows all about you but likes you anyway. Obscuring your opinions is cowardly. But you must carefully phrase and explain things so that you are not misunderstood.

      --
      Check out my women's designer clothing store.
    63. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by lixee · · Score: 1

      This is nothing! I don't know how many of you are following the Mexican elections but get this:
      - The computer system to count the ballots was set up by a company owned by Calderon's brother-in-law. (Calderon is the pro-business candidate)
      - The last 30% votes of ballots didn't add up more than 0.1% for the opposition candidate Obrador. It defies statistics as I know them.
      - The seven supreme court judges that are supposed to appoint a president or nullify the elections were handpicked by current president Fox, Calderon's close ally.
      Who needs to hack the voting machine when you can do all of the above, have a couple of millions protesting in the streets and not only get away with it but also have the support of most countries? Now, that's something!

      --
      Res publica non dominetur
    64. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Whumpsnatz · · Score: 1

      The Diebold HackUrVote works as designed. It's the Diebold execs, and the Republicans and their Democratic enablers, who are responsible for intentionally destroying democracy.

    65. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      (BTW, if you aren't up on your Louisiana political history, the crook won.)
      It's Louisiana. The crook always wins.
    66. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find Independents the most level headed. They used to working with others and don't have an US vs THEM mentality, since they would be completely isolated themselves. There are people on both sides that are shrill and deafening.

      As Washington warned against the party system. "It serves to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration....agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one....against another....it opens the door to foreign influence and corruption...thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another."

      http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestone s/farewell/

    67. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      I know the feeling of having to hide your political beliefs. I live in Bush Country and everywhere you go its anti-liberal this and stupid dems that.

      I know that feeling too. But I have the opposite situation. I live in the ultra-progressive San Fransisco area, where everywhere you go it's anti-conservative this and stupid republicans that. The hatred here against conservatives is vicious.

      Republicans do not have a monopoly on bad behavior. Democrats are every bit as bad for not reining in their supporters.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    68. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by jamstar7 · · Score: 1
      Sounds like what'll happen to you in Colorado if you sport a Red Wings bumper sticker. 4 flat tires in half an hour was no fun, particularly after the Wings clobbered the Avs in the 7th game.

      After the '04 election, I was in my local 'supermarket' & one of the neighborhood's more notorious idiots was crowing about how 'we sure showed those Commie bastards, didn't we??' I looked at him and said, "You just don't get it, do you?' & walked away.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    69. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by jamstar7 · · Score: 1
      Politics of Division & Hatred. Its far easier to convince someone you are right if you don't bother with reasonable arguements. Ann Coulter makes a living claiming people who disagree with her nutjob point of view are commiting treason, today I read a forwarded email from a very intelligent person that claimed everyone not current or ex-military.police/fire/etc was a sheep with their head in the sand. My grandmother oalmost was ill because I'd rather have an ex-marine and Vietnam vet who protested the war he just returned from (I know we could have one that one if it weren't for all those damned hippies 6,000 miles away) than a party-boy failed businessman who froze for 7 minutes in a classroom when our country was attacked (seriously, he put our counry at risk because he didn't want to scare a classroom full of kids by excusing himself from the room? How do people justify this foolishness?).

      Kerry was Navy, not Marine. And militarily, we were winning the Vietnam War, but the politicians made us give it all back.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    70. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by jamstar7 · · Score: 1
      Interesting idea. Who picks these 'non-partisan people'?

      I actually LIKE the old fashioned paper ballots, btw.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    71. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by doom · · Score: 1
      Brandybuck (704397) wrote:
      I know that feeling too. But I have the opposite situation. I live in the ultra-progressive San Fransisco area, where everywhere you go it's anti-conservative this and stupid republicans that. The hatred here against conservatives is vicious.
      Oh please. I live in "ultraliberal" San Francisco, too, and the faux-liberals (e.g. Gavin Newson) are pretty clearly ruling the town. Conservative whining about how persecuted they are is a really tiresome cliche at this point.
      Republicans do not have a monopoly on bad behavior. Democrats are every bit as bad for not reining in their supporters.
      Try looking really closely at the kind of crap your fellow Republicans have been getting away with of late. I used to be a "Republicans, Democrats, what's the difference?" kind of guy, but that was back before the Republicans had their brains eaten by crazed weasels from hell. What kind of patriotic Americans regularly attempts to rig elections?
    72. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Of course there's also buying votes. In close run competitions finding an area where most people are likely to vote against you and paying them cash to vote for you could tip the balance. With a secret ballot you know they could take the money and vote any way they want, but if you can check up on them it could work. This has happened in the UK when they have trailed 100% postal voting. A few bribes cost a lot less than traditional campaigning.

    73. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by DDLKermit007 · · Score: 1

      The real problem is that this countries Two Party system is a joke known as Democracy 1.0. The rest of the Democraic World is on Democracy 2.0 (Parlament). Hell what kind of government have we tried to set Iraq up with? Two party system or Parlament? We don't even trust, "our" way with Iraq. The Two Party system is outdated and needs to be eliminated. This country can't last too much longer before it cracks and either flattly fails, or the political system gets it shit together. Evolve or die. It's as simple as that.

    74. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Capsaicin · · Score: 1

      and so the idiots (who wouldn't vote if they didn't have to) vote for the party with the worst shock campaign

      Yes the problem with compulsory voting is that at least half the voters have below average intelligence ... On the other hand the advantage is that any party controlling the legislature has (more or less as we have a representative system not a general popular vote) the mandate of the majority of the citizens in the country. In other words every piece of legislation by which we are governed derives it force at law by (indirectly) representing the will of at least that majority of citizens ... it's what we call democracy (idiots and all!)

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    75. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Sarisar · · Score: 1

      As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government we have, except for all those others we have tried.

      Wonder if we could get an ask slashdot on a new form of government...

    76. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by cduffy · · Score: 1
      It wouldn't be economically feasible to buy out enough people to win for the most part.
      Certainly it would, if you buy them in the right places. Yaay, electoral college!
    77. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by cbacba · · Score: 1

      Voting machines are not only expensive, they permit a 'cover of darkness' to hide the potential of massive fraud. The only way a society can have voting is absolute transparancy in the 'full light of day'. If the prize is great enough - and political control for corrupt politicians is one of the greatest - then there is the incentive to go after it. The cure to voter/voting fraud is simple. Even the Iraquis have mastered some if not most of it. Those purple fingers they so proudly held up on their voting day is a very serious fraud deterrent and say the same thing that these stupid little worthless stickers with "I voted!" that one finds at the voting booth on election day. The other serious facet is the ability of the voter to verify that they have indeed cast a ballot for their desired candidates is another major facet - something that requires a human readable paper ballot - without which recounts are not possible. The rest is really 'openess' - the ability of the public to see and document (camcorders) that no serious irregularities are going on. Of course severe criminal penalities must be enforced to keep the fraud from overwhelming the observation and detection systems. Unfortunately, the days of limited government where those in power had virtually no effect on the lives of the people is long gone. The power and wealth in government now is so great as to attract the very best of the corrupt scumbags our society has to offer.

    78. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1)
      the actual vote-fraud problem is not specific to voting machines
      Voting fraud was going on even before voting machines.

      The solution to voting fraud is to allow to check the vote count and to require all counted results be signed by all interested parties confirming that the counting was done right.

      As minimum it means every party has representative at every voting place and those representatives each does check the counting process and signs on the final votes-count paper.

      2) voting is anonimous and unaccoutable but it is possible to have anonimous and accounted voting - all is needed is to generate unique voter ID number for everyone who is coming to vote and give that number to the voting person.

      This voter ID would become public (all votes with corresponding voters IDs published on internet) but the association of voter ID to actual person would still stay anonimous and known only to the person. In this way person can check how his/her vote was counted

    79. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why can't ordinary paper ballots be made error free?
      How hard is it to lay out the choices in a single column to avoid confusion?
      How hard is it to make an electronically actuated puncher to avoid the "pregnant chads"?
      How hard is it to post in the ballot booth that you can have a new ballot if you screw up on your first one?

    80. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not a nice guy

      No surprise there; he's a Republican.

    81. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      And militarily, we were winning the Vietnam War, but the politicians made us give it all back.

      Yes, we could have kept a large force there there for many more years, at the cost of another 30,000+ lives or more, and possibly have stabilized the country and made them our friends. But we chose to leave instead, and they became stable and our friends anyway. A lot more lives could have been saved if we'd never gotten involved in the first place, with the exact same outcome.

      The French had it right, for once. We should have heeded their warning.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    82. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Neb+Namwen · · Score: 1

      An ATM is not all that secure, the security of your transactions comes from their being traceable to a given account and user ID. For voting, which need to be both secure and anonymous, the safeguards which keep ATM transactions safe can't be applied.

    83. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by compro01 · · Score: 1

      i was largely referring to errors by the people counting them (which as the other replier mentioned, is pretty much a non-issue due to the procedure for counting them). and i was referring to Canadian ballots, rather than the US ones. completely different systems.

      our Canadian voting ballots are rather simple things http://www.elections.ca/yth/images/rft_image042.jp g. rather than needing a big honking machine, or electronic terminal, or whatever, you just use a pen and write an X in the circle to vote. then just tear off the part with the names (it's perforated, which isn't shown in the picture) and fold the section with the circles and put it into the ballot box.

      old fashioned, yes, but simple, efficient, and near-impossible to screw up. new technolagy isn't always the answer.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    84. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by jamstar7 · · Score: 1
      And militarily, we were winning the Vietnam War, but the politicians made us give it all back.

      Yes, we could have kept a large force there there for many more years, at the cost of another 30,000+ lives or more, and possibly have stabilized the country and made them our friends. But we chose to leave instead, and they became stable and our friends anyway. A lot more lives could have been saved if we'd never gotten involved in the first place, with the exact same outcome.

      I was talking with a Buddhist monk in '77, '78, and he made the observation that we were dropping the wrong stuff on Hanoi. He said we could have won it if we'd dropped Army PX'es, Coca-Cola & Levis on Hanoi instead of bombs. Looking back at it, I think he had something there...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    85. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Joel+from+Sydney · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can also do this in Australia. To be counted as having voted, all you need to do is accept the ballot paper and sign your name on the roll, then place the ballot paper in the box. You can draw pictures, create your own candidates, or leave the whole thing blank if you want - they all end up in the same "declined" pile.

    86. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by HeroreV · · Score: 1

      *sigh* Can't you think at all? Cellphones that can take video clips are not uncommon. You know, of a ballot dropping into a box. And there are billions of other ways.

    87. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      You are exactly the problem with the Bay Area liberalism. You consider Gavin Newson a "faux-liberal"? WTF?

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    88. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      I am not a Republican. Hell, I'm not even a conservative. But you probably feel anyone to the right of Medea Benjamin to be a dangerous reactionary.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    89. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by thedletterman · · Score: 1

      A public vote would create a system where to power of the vote is stolen from hte people anyways. You've just created a conundrum.

      --
      Any fool can criticise, condemn, and complain, and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin
    90. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by mfrank · · Score: 1

      You know, where I vote, you drop the ballot in the box in front of poll workers. They might look at you funny if you film yourself dropping your ballot in. Where do you live, Chicago? There are *trillions* of ways to sell your vote and still vote the way you want to, if the voting area is designed by someone with any amount of intelligence.

    91. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by doom · · Score: 1
      You are exactly the problem with the Bay Area liberalism.
      So you mean the Republicans *haven't* had their brains eaten by crazed weasels from hell?

      You consider Gavin Newson a "faux-liberal"? WTF?
      Off the top of my head (without checking details):
      • Got into office on a "care not cash" campaign that cut benefits and promised increased services that largely never materialized.
      • Pushed for gay marriages, scoring big points with a local voting block at no political risk to himself... and without much risk that he would actually suceed.
      • Dropped by hotel picket lines to express sympathy.
      • Vetoed a six month trial of extending the Sunday road closure in the park to Saturday, for no reason that's easy to fathom.
      Can you name me something that he's done that makes him a genuine liberal? Preferably something involving restraining real estate development, since that's what SF politics really revolves around.

    92. Re:My Perception Has Changed Again by doom · · Score: 1
      I am not a Republican. Hell, I'm not even a conservative.
      Cool. And I'm not a Green. Neither am I a Democrat, though I am opposed to crazed brainless monsters in office.

      But you probably feel anyone to the right of Medea Benjamin to be a dangerous reactionary.
      Last I heard, Medea Benjamin's big thing was to try and get the troops brought home from Iraq. This would put her solidly in the mainstream, albeit to the left of our sort-of-elected leaders.
  3. I'm voting for Q*Bert by Odeen · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I, for one, welcome our new fictitious digital overlords?

  4. What about hacking paper ballots? by CPE1704TKS · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I hate Diebold and electronic voting as much as anyone else, but has there been any attempts to figure out exactly how easy it is to rig fake paper votes? There's a lot of effort put into showing the weaknesses of electronic voting, but what are the weaknesses of paper voting and how do they compare against e-voting?

    1. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by cheese_lord · · Score: 1

      Here here! All the old fogys are afraid of the "darned electric voting boxs" when it was and still is easier to "acidentally" destroy all the black voters paper ballets or not count "pregnant chads". I'm not even taking into account thinks done by non-government forces.

    2. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by MrNaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A pile of electrons is a little easier to hide than a pile of election ballots.

      --
      I hate printers.
    3. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Kenja · · Score: 1

      paper is much harder. With a paper ballot you need to alter every bit of paper for each vote you want to skew. With an digital system, you just make up the numbers at a ceneteral location.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    4. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Zenaku · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Depends on what you mean by "rigging." If you wanted to say, register in 5 different precincts, then vote at each one, you might get away with it. But that's 4 extra votes. If you wanted to say, change every 5th vote from a district, or just plain "lose" the results of the district entirely, you'd have a hard time doing it on paper.

      In general, I'd say that any kind of large-scale vote rigging done by paper ballots would require a conspiricy involving multiple staffers and observers at the polling places. You'd need to physically replace thousands of paper ballots with fake ones. Good luck doing that by yourself. And afterwards, if the results look fishy, there is a good chance that the fraud could be discovered on a recount.

      With these Diebold machines, on the other hand, any one person, even one without any special access given to election workers, could modify as many votes as they want, while arousing no suspicion, leaving no physical evidence in the form of discarded ballots, and leaving no trace of the original results should a recount or investigation be ordered.

      There will always be some dishonest people who see democracy as a game they can "cheat" at to win. But if a voting machine doesn't produce a solid meat-space record that can be guarded, stored, and re-examined, the effects of those cheaters on the outcome is greater by orders of magnitude.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    5. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by 'nother+poster · · Score: 1

      1 gal gasoline and one match will solve that problem.

    6. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful
      well one thing on your side is that the paper votes (all of which should be fully in tact) shoult not be off by more than 1 % as is the case with almost all exit polls when compared to the election. With Ohio, many of the paper votes were (suspiciously) illegible - its very difficult to make a paper vote completely illegible by acident.

      Anyway point is that if you can't very that the paper count comes close to the e-vote (even if there is not enough paper) the election result should be voided on the grounds of gross and immoral mediocrity.

      Not only that but now it is clear that your country allows the swapping in and out of memory cards on voting machines. It's very difficult to see this as anything other that deliberate implementation of poor security, but who knows?

      Reasonable suspicion...over Reasonable doubt? You chose. although you have already chosen unfortunately..

    7. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here's how it goes (I've experienced it firsthand):

      The various parties have a representative sit in each room and oversee that proper pratices are taken by all the officials and voters, and that no tampering takes place. At all times they are privy to the process, EXCEPT WHILE BALLOTS ARE MARKED (obviously). When I was one of these people I even had to follow the box around when the election officers helped people in wheelchairs by bringing the box outside (the building was not wheelchair accessible).

      Proper practices are this:

      Prior to the booth being opened the total number of ballots are accounted for, and their serial numbers recorded. The cardboard ballot box is built (from the provided cutout) and taped with security tape.

      Each person has a voter card or is eligible to vote. They are provided one ballot and their name is stroked from the list. They mark their ballot and fold it in private. They present the folded ballot to the elections officer. The officer then removes the "receipt" portion, which only has a serial number on it, stores it aside, and then they hand the ballot to the voter. The voter places the ballot into the ballot box. Repeat as necessary.

      At the end of the election, the ballot box is opened. The ballots are counted in front of the party representatives, and any ballots anyone isn't happy with are contested. Contested ballots are recorded as contested. Damaged/misused ballots are accounted for. Serial strips are checked against the number of voters and the amount of votes in the box to ensure there are none missing / too many. All information is recorded. The box is resealed with new (different) security tape, this time also sealing the section one drops the ballots into, all documents are sealed, EVERYONE involved (including the representatives) signs all the envelopes and the tally sheet. Once everyone is happy (if there is much to contest, this may take HOURS) the ballot box is driven to the head office for the city and held for a period (I believe this period is YEARS).

      Should there be enough contested votes that it would throw the election, there are recounts, recounts, and more recounts.

      The nice part of this process is it provides third party verification at all times. Since all parties are assumed they may have their own interests in throwing the election, by allowing all parties on the ballot to sit there and watch EVERYTHING, no one party has the opportunity to throw the election. They only have the opportunity to delay it and whine a whole bunch.

      It takes a bit more work, but by golly, find me a "crack" for that system and I'd be happy to see it work.

      Oh, and yes, if someone contests all the ballots, recounts can be held indefinitely until someone gives. Did I mention during this entire time nobody is allowed to leave the election room, even if it is for the facilities or for food/water? And, of course, nobody else is allowed in. Permission is usually given if all the parties co-operate, but serious filibusters are nigh impossible.

    8. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Rowan_u · · Score: 1

      It's not a question of how easy it is to hack paper vs. e-votes. Both can be hacked quite easily. The real question is which hack can be cheaply copied and distributed thousands of times by a very small group of inventors?

      --
      only one everything
    9. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by CommandNotFound · · Score: 2, Informative

      There will always be some dishonest people who see democracy as a game they can "cheat" at to win. But if a voting machine doesn't produce a solid meat-space record that can be guarded, stored, and re-examined, the effects of those cheaters on the outcome is greater by orders of magnitude.

      Not to mention that fact that these electronic systems are so expensive compared to the best voting method I've used, that is the "connect the arrow with a sharpie pen". No chads or punch systems, just thick paper and markers. If you can't connect a line with a marker, have someone assist you. If you can't do that, you probably don't need to vote.

      I would prefer all states go to the marker system. It's easy to count electronically, super cheap, and everyone understands how it works. They can even add photos to the cards if need be. These complex, expensive, and opaque electronic systems are a solution looking for a problem, IMO.

    10. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      And the billowing smoke from the counting office won't tip anyone off.

      --
      I hate printers.
    11. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Paper ballots are certaintly not perfect. They can easily be altered, lost or destroyed... but so can electronic records and the physical media they are stored on.

      However, changing one vote on a paper ballot requires modifying or replacing a sheet of paper. Changing 100,000 votes requires changing or modifying 100,000 sheets of paper. Changing one electronic vote requires a few keystrokes. Changing 100,000 electronic votes requries... a kew keystrokes.

      Even better, to alter a paper ballot you need physical access to the ballot. To change an electronic vote you do not necessarily need physical access to the computer on which is resides.

      100,000 paper ballots also takes up a bit of volume, os it is not something that can be easily concealed without having a lot of people in on the plot, and would take some time to prepare, swap and dispose of the evidence. A memory card holding 100,000 electronic votes can be slipped into a shirt pocket, can be prepared in minutes, and all traces of the original data can be destroyed almost instantly.

      Lastly, anyone can read and verify a paper ballot. Only people with the proper equipment, software, and technical knowledge (and cryptographic keys, if any are used) will be able to look at and verify the electronic votes.
      =Smidge=

    12. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      The weaknesses of paper have less to do with hacking as with other failures. In 2000 paper ballots caused all sorts of problems. Some marks were ambiguous. Ballot designs were confusing, and some people either checked the wrong boxes or missed some votes entirely. There's no way to have a "is this who you meant to vote for?" checksum step at the end.

      Electronic voting machines, at least the way they're implemented now, are a terrible way to fix those problems. But I just want to remind people that paper ballots have their own problems, because people seem to have forgotten what a fiasco the 2000 election was.

    13. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by 'nother+poster · · Score: 1

      Never has yet. ;) It may be better now than at the time of "the battle of Athens", but there are still places where the cemetaries vote heavily one party or the other.

    14. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Zenaku · · Score: 1
      These complex, expensive, and opaque electronic systems are a solution looking for a problem, IMO.

      I'm not so sure that's true. You're simply letting your perspective as someone who is not evil limit your definition of "problem."

      Problem: My lies and distortions echoed by the utterly cowed media are no longer sufficient to persuade the unwashed peasants who are my constituents to elect me to my position of power, and a verifiable voting record will surely see my fat ass kicked from its gilded pedestal.

      Solution: Technology!

      Okay, well, even I'm not quite cynical enough to lend credence to the above conspiracy theory, but the fact that results from these machines are untrustworthy stands.

      Oh, and if you ARE evil, I apologize if I implied otherwise, and meant no disrespect to your system of beliefs. As Bender says, "Good, Evil -- they're both fine choices. Whatever floats your boat."

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    15. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by k98sven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here here! All the old fogys are afraid of the "darned electric voting boxs" when it was and still is easier to "acidentally" destroy all the black voters paper ballets or not count "pregnant chads". I'm not even taking into account thinks done by non-government forces.

      Bullshit. How exactly is it easy to destroy ANY ballot when you have multiple election workers with their eyes on them at every moment? Plus any number of election observers, which may be representatives of all parties involved, plus any number of federal or foreign observers.

      The ONLY way you can destroy a paper ballot is if there are no observers, and all present voting administrators are corrupt. (And observers are usually deployed to exactly the places where there are suspicions of corruption).

      Now let's consider an "e-voting" machine that leaves no verifiable paper trail, shall we? The officials and observers at the polling station have no way of knowing that the vote the machine actually registered was accurate, and neither do you. Nor can they tell if the machine is malfunctioning. All you need is ONE person to tamper with the machine, and do so at ANY time.

      If the machine is compromised it can still display "Zero votes registered" when the poll opens. But I'd sure like to see you do the same trick stuffing paper slips in a ballot box and still having it look empty.

      To ensure a fair election with paper ballots you need: At least one honest election official. And/or at least one impartial observer. To ensure a fair election with an electronic voting machine you need: All people who've ever had the opportunity to tamper with the machine to be honest. You need the software to be correct and bug-free (yeah, right). You need to be able to verify the correctness of the software.

      It's true that it's impossible to guarantee fair elections. All you can do is reduce the risk of cheating, and the possible magnitude of cheating. Electronic voting machines do neither. All they do is cost less money.

    16. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The so-called 'fiasco' you refer to occured (to my recollection) in one state, Florida. Surprise, surprise, where there was a hotly contested race there were 'problems'. Maybe these problems existed in every other state and were ignored as being 'unimportant', but it may also be that the parties invented these problems. For example, in Utah where someone made an incomplete punch for Gore, it was counted for Gore, no questions asked. In Florida, for some reason (note sarcasm), these incomplete punches were questioned mercilessly and in the end simply thrown out.

      Call it a fiasco if you want. I call it foul play.

    17. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by JerLasVegas · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be surprised if these machines were the reason Bush got elected to a second term!

    18. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by rjstanford · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The weaknesses of paper have less to do with hacking as with other failures. In 2000 paper ballots caused all sorts of problems. Some marks were ambiguous. Ballot designs were confusing, and some people either checked the wrong boxes or missed some votes entirely. There's no way to have a "is this who you meant to vote for?" checksum step at the end.

      So again, the real answer seems to be having a nice, easy to use electronic voting machine (with references to all referendums, lots of scrollable space for names, et cetera) that summarizes and confirms your choices for you. It then, upon your approval, prints out an unambiguous paper ballot. You then read the paper ballot (which is either OCRable or barcoded but either way can be trivially spot-checked by humans against the eventual electronic counting machine that reads it). After printing, the voting machine wipes its short-term memory and waits for the next valid vote code to be entered.

      If you approve of what it says, you fold it up and place it into the ballot box. If you don't, for whatever reason, you can trade it in (shred it in front of the poll worker perhaps) and get another go on the machine. You leave without any kind of a paper trace following you, but leaving behind damn near uncontestable evidence of your political preferences. After the polls are closed, the boxes are opened and the paper ballots are fed into a scanner, which tabulates the votes. At will, any box may be hand-counted and the results compared to the electronic tallies: any significant variance is proof of tampering.

      Simple, easy, relatively inexpensive, and above all understandable to the voting public. What's not to love?

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    19. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by mrego · · Score: 1

      Ever hear of a checksum? Change a vote, checksum doesn't match. I am sure there are more sophisticated ways to make the system if not tamper-proof, then tamper alarmed.

      "Anyone" can read a ballot? Ever hear of 'hanging chads'? Also, if anyone can read it, then anyone can write it.
      What percent can even attempt electronic tampering short-circuiting even the simplest of controls? .01%? That's probably too high.

    20. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Mostly I think it's a great idea. What's "not to love" is that printers are complicated, fickle beasts. They run out of toner/ink/paper, paper gets jammed, they have moving parts and therefore mechanical problems. And if an election worker has to open the voting booth to fix it, that compromises the privacy of whoever was voting. The election worker will get a good look at a half-printed ballot jammed in the feed, even if that worker is careful to shred it immediately after getting it out.

      I suspect that there are probably solutions to those problems. Grocery store cash registers print out miles of receipts quietly and with pretty good reliability (though the receipts themselves are easily spoiled by light and time, another problem). If you schedule ink/paper refills fairly often (rather than waiting for them to run out) you can avoid problems in the middle of a voting session.

      I think that a combination electronic/paper solution may be the best, despite the problems. And personally I never had any problems with the kind we used to use, which had mechanical levers which punched out paper cards. (At least, that's what I think they did. I never really got to see the insides or the final ballot. But they certainly gave a satisfying "thunk" when you pulled the lever.)

    21. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Josh+Hiles · · Score: 2

      We can create a similar "low fraud" (acknowledging your point that you can cheat any system) with electronic machines we just need them to leave a verifiable and tamper free trail. Oh and also, not be as easy to hack as Diebolds slap-dash "Fraudomatic" is.

    22. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by LeRandy · · Score: 1

      The only issue is, if you need someone to help you, then your vote is no longer secret.

    23. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Ever hear of a checksum? Change a vote, checksum doesn't match.

      It does if you update the checksum while you're at it. If you have the ability to change the data so easily (and based on the reports we've all seen, it IS that easy), then the checksum can't be much harder to deal with.

      It is true that anyone can write a paper ballot, but that introduces people into the activity. The more people that get involved, the more likely it is someone will either screw up and expose the operation, be an undercover investigator, blow the whistle (before, during or after the fact), or try to blackmail you to keep your fraud secret.

      It takes only ONE person to fraud an *entire* election if done electronically with no verifiable records. We're not talking about hacking into the systems or modding the hardware, we're talking about literally "flip this switch" or "plug this in". Huge difference there.

      The whole idea of electronic voting is to minimize the involvement of human hands and eyes. as a consequence, you have to manipulate far fewer people to alter the election, so security measures need to be premium quality. The problem here is that Diebold machines seem to not just lack proper security, but almost seem to have been deliberately designed to allow easy, unauthorized access.
      =Smidge=

    24. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 2, Informative

      In general, I'd say that any kind of large-scale vote rigging done by paper ballots would require a conspiricy involving multiple staffers and observers at the polling places. You'd need to physically replace thousands of paper ballots with fake ones. Good luck doing that by yourself. And afterwards, if the results look fishy, there is a good chance that the fraud could be discovered on a recount.

      Your comments could be applied to the Ukrainian Presidential runoff of 2004 where massive vote fraud was done despite the presence of international election monitors. I was in Ukraine the day after the election and I remember seeing the election "results" on TV. Imagine if you will a US state in a Presidental election that reports 98% of eligible voters voted and 94% of them voted for one candidate and you have an idea of the bald faced fraud that going on. When the people counting the votes and the people working the precincts are in on the fix, paper ballots can be forged/replaced. The election was re-run basically because the police and military backed the "loser", Viktor Yushchenko, and refused to kill protesters like the outgoing president is alleged to have secretly ordered. It also helped that the Supreme Court shocked everyone and decided that even though the outgoing president had appointed them, they were going to do what was right, not what he wanted them to do, so they ordered a re-vote and a fair result was obtained. So whenever I hear people act like paper ballots can't be rigged, I think of this election.

    25. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here here!

      It's hear, hear as in: Listen to what the guy is saying! Sheesh...

    26. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Changing 100,000 electronic votes requries... a kew keystrokes.

      Not necessarily. If you can account for the physical media you can use write-once fuse memory. Once it's written you can't change it, period. Kind of like a CDR, once a bit is changed from 0 to 1, it cannot be changed back. You can erase the data by changing all the bits, but that makes it evident that it has been tampered with.

      You could create a system where polling station officials seal the write-once media into the voting machine. The voting machine would write a signature of some sort to the media, including the date and time and perhaps an ID or verification of the contents of the memory of the machine. It would then be placed into service and record votes using bit patterns that cannot be overwritten in such a way as would produce a valid vote. Before ejecting the media the machine would write a closing signature and finalize the media so that any remaining space could not be used.

      The media would be collected by the voting official when it was full or voting was finished. At this point the media is tamper-proof. It can be rendered unreadable or lost, but the votes cannot be changed. Add a paper ballot to provide a double-entry system.

      You are still left with the possibility that someone could tamper with the software to cause the system to write the wrong vote to the electronic media, but the voter-verified paper ballot would be correct. You also have the problem of tampering with the machines that tally the electronic records. If that machine reads the media and then tallys the votes improperly there is no way to know, other than to spot check the tallys against hand-counted paper ballots.

      If you spot check you have to ensure that the machines selected for the checks have not been preselected by someone or selected in a way that leaves open an avenue for fraud (such as having the electronic tally-counter choose). You'd have to have voting officials roll some dice or something that would be resonably random, transparent and verifable to public observers, kind of like a lottery ball machine.

      It really just doesn't seem worth the trouble to me. Is knowing the outcome of an election a couple of days or hours sooner really important enough to put in these points of possible fraud? I'm a programmer and hardware hacker, I love gadgets as much as the next guy, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense to use a gadget when a marker and a piece of paper will do the job better and cheaper.

    27. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by elviscious · · Score: 1

      I think it would be extremely easy actually, at least with the punch card type of voting machines. All that someone would have to do is swap out the sheet that displays the candidates and the hole to punch signifying a vote for that candidate. The paper trail would show that the voter selected the candidate, and if you only altered one of the 20 machines in a precinct, who would know. Following the election swap back to the original and nobody is the wiser.

    28. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. How exactly is it easy to destroy ANY ballot when you have multiple election workers with their eyes on them at every moment? Plus any number of election observers, which may be representatives of all parties involved, plus any number of federal or foreign observers.

      The ONLY way you can destroy a paper ballot is if there are no observers, and all present voting administrators are corrupt.


      It would probably be very informative to hire a team of professional illusionists to observe the entire process of moving ballots around and then have them show us how/if they could perform a switch right in front of us without anyone noticing.

      That team could then make recomendations about how to arrange things to make such trickery very difficult.

    29. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by insanecarbonbasedlif · · Score: 1

      Paper ballots could still be altered en mass by hacking the input device.

      The ballots I'm familiar with are just numbered punch cards that are stuck into a metal device that lines the punch outs with the proper, English readable options. Change a couple of the option listings in a few booths in a precinct so that a demographic likely to vote for one candidate more often votes for their opponent, and then destroy the hacked option listings after the election, and you've hacked thousands of votes undetectably.

      --
      Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
    30. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by BigCheese · · Score: 1

      I would be suprised if they weren't.

      --
      The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. - Edward R. Murrow
    31. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Zenaku · · Score: 1
      It's a perfect example of what I was saying though. The paper ballots were rigged, but it did require a massive conspiracy on the part of the poll workers and ballot counters, and the fraud was pretty much obvious. Probably because it is easy to "overcorrect" the results when you are adding your own ballots to the mix -- you don't know when you are carrying out the fraud how many real votors will turn up, or exactly how much of the "real" vote your candidate will get, so you can end up with blatantly incredible results.

      Now imagine if instead of that, someone had been able to go to the polls, and with his/her minutes alone in the voting booth, patch the machine with malicious firmware that would keep the same voter turnout numbers, but swap a few hundred votes from one party to the other whenever the "desired" candidate fell below 50 percent?

      I certainly wasn't trying to imply that paper ballots can't be rigged -- just that it would be awfully tough for a single fraudster to carry out, and much harder to cover up in any case.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    32. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody is saying paper ballots cannot be rigged. People are saying they cannot be signifigantly rigged without everybody knowing about. All those international observers knew full well that the election was rigged, as did the press, both the candidates and everybody in the whole country.

    33. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by jafac · · Score: 1

      If you wanted to say, change every 5th vote from a district, or just plain "lose" the results of the district entirely, you'd have a hard time doing it on paper.

      Not hard. You just need the "right" officials.

      In 04, a pickup truck filled with boxes of marked paper ballots from a non-diebold district was followed to the Republican Party's office in that county, and the truck unloaded there, rather than to the place where they were to be counted. And these ballots were subsequently "lost" - oops!

      The chief issue in election integrity today, is not diebold, nor is it even corrupt officials. The chief issue is:

      Nobody In Power Gives A Crap.

      (mainly because that's how they got into power in the first place.)

      And it's not just the voting. Mass media corporate consolidation plays a huge role in controlling the message that gets to voters as well.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    34. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by jafac · · Score: 1

      Bad machines do make this task much easier.

      But you need to consider that election fraud does not seek to win by wide margins. Election fraud seeks to win by razor-thin margins, for several reasons:
      1. To supress future voting by the losing bloc, who may have put a lot of effort into campaign and organization, only to lose anyway.
      2. To divert suspicion that arises when exit polls differ significantly from election results.
      3. To minimize the cost of election spending. They only need to spend enough money to get them within spitting-distance of 49%, then cheating gets them over the hump.

      Election machines could allow someone to automate the theft of hundreds of thousands of votes. The same theft, with paper ballots, would require far more people in the "chain" of conspiracy, which increases risks that someone's going to blab to the press. (but even when someone does blab to the press these days, they're considered a "liberal" a "radical" oh "fanatical", "criminal".)

      So I think that the benefit these election machines have is just a better way to not get caught, by taking surplus people out of the chain. Which, of course, is the whole point of automation technology in the first place. Reduce the cost. Reduce the accountability.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    35. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      You're not being imaginative enough. I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who are kept up a night, wondering how they can take more money from the american taxpayers. It seems to be a very motivating problem. And although it's a field where much progress has been made, there surely is still much more work to be done.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    36. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by lky · · Score: 1

      The flaw in this design is that it does nothing to protect smaller parties from the bigger.

      It is unlikely that small parties will have enough representatives to be at ALL polling places. So in the polling places where they are underrepresented the two large parties (democrats & republicans) can take turns contesting their ballots. Effectively keeping it a two horse race.

      Its better than a sealed electronic box counting but not perfect.

    37. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I'm sorry, but what genius figured out that punch-cards are the way to go for voting? We'll put people in front of some complicated machinery that they're not comfortable with and everything will be swell? No, punch cards are in the same league as electronic voting: automation for the sake of automation, not improving anything.

      A real paper voting system would not require anything but a paper ballot and, gasp, a pencil. Yes, this is possible! These ballots are then counted by hand. With close to 300 million Americans, you can probably find some people to count the votes? The reliance on easily corruptable machinery for mundane tasks such as ballot counting has backfired so enormously that it's time to get back to the basics. One man, one piece of paper, one pencil, one vote.

    38. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by MLease · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that Diebold machines seem to not just lack proper security, but almost seem to have been deliberately designed to allow easy, unauthorized access.

      Almost?!

      -Mike

      --
      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
    39. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Cederic · · Score: 2, Interesting


      >> Here here!

      Where where?

      Oh, sorry - did you mean "Hear hear!"?

      Personally I vote by using a pen to draw on a piece of paper which goes into a box and is subsequently hand-counted in full view of a lot of people including representatives of multiple political parties.

      Primitive system, but it works. Until you can come up with some new fangled technology device that's as efficient and honest I'm not particularly keen to switch away from it.

    40. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by rrkap · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. How exactly is it easy to destroy ANY ballot when you have multiple election workers with their eyes on them at every moment? Plus any number of election observers, which may be representatives of all parties involved, plus any number of federal or foreign observers.

      Well... paper systems have plenty of holes. A few years ago several of San Francisco's balot boxes were found floating in the SF bay right after the election, so somebody managed to loose a few... Besides, most polling places don't have that many people working them. You probably would only need to corrupt 2 or 3 poll workers to loose some balots, with a similar amount of effort to messing with an electronic voting machine.

      --
      I like my beverages with warning labels!
    41. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 1
      It takes a bit more work, but by golly, find me a "crack" for that system and I'd be happy to see it work.

      It's called "Katherine Harris."

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    42. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Problem: My lies and distortions echoed by the utterly cowed media are no longer sufficient to persuade the unwashed peasants who are my constituents to elect me to my position of power, and a verifiable voting record will surely see my fat ass kicked from its gilded pedestal.

      Solution: Technology!


      Oh yeah, fixing social problem with Technology, that will work!

      Err... Never mind.
    43. Re:What about hacking paper ballots? by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      Your way has still a drawback: using a pen can be a way to identify the voter or could cause ambigious interpretation if the marks are not correctly placed (it is then similar to the problems with punch cards).

      In my country, France, each candidate/party provides its pre-printed ballots then it's quite the same: hand count by a semi-random group of 4 voters (there are usually 3-4 groups) under the control of the election officials, party representatives and any volunteer voters not chosen to be in a group. Anything that may help identify the voter (note, pen mark, strange folding...) voids the ballot.

      On semantic, I disagree with you, despite this "pen" drawback, your system is in no way primitive since it inherits from centuries of good ballot organisation and relies on procedures that allow a good control of the ballot by the voters. The Dielbolt way is the primitive one since it is similar to letting the chaman/priest tells "The gods want XXX to be the chief, and yes, they only speak to me".

  5. There is only one problem with electronic voting: by BandwidthHog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is not needed.

    We geeks love to bitch about solutions in search of a problem; is there a clearer example?

    --

    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
  6. Ok by Billosaur · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So it's easy to compromise the security of a Diebold voting machine -- news? This has been going on for a while in one form or another ever since Diebold got into the business. I'd have been more shocked if they would have found that you couldn't force it without breaking the seal.

    If states/counties are smart, they'll avoid Diebold like the plague and stick to the old voting systems until a virtually fool-proof system can be designed and built. In the meantime, this won't have much effect on voting, since fewer and fewer people vote all the time.

    BTW, that website with the detail is a trociously put together.

    --
    GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    1. Re:Ok by JohnnyBigodes · · Score: 1

      That was also quite an "a trocious" spelling mistake :)

    2. Re:Ok by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      What's a trocious and where can I buy one?

      --
      I hate printers.
    3. Re:Ok by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 2, Insightful
      until a virtually fool-proof system can be designed and built
      You've already given the reason why it won't happen.

      The elections not only have to be fool-proof, but fool-accountable too, so that the common voter can clearly understand, and verify the process of voting. That alone means no electronic voting, because 99% of the voters don't understand it, and even if they do, they can't verify the process.

      The paper ballot is the only way, since that is the only voting process every voter understands, and every voter can verify (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not from the USA, but isn't it so that anyone can be present while votes are being counted either helping or just observing? That is the way we do it in my country and I'd be horrified to learn if this weren't the case in the USA).
      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    4. Re:Ok by adarn · · Score: 1

      well you're a trocious speller.

    5. Re:Ok by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You make an excellent point here, but you don't make it strongly enough.

      The elections not only have to be fool-proof, but fool-accountable too, so that the common voter can clearly understand, and verify the process of voting. That alone means no electronic voting, because 99% of the voters don't understand it, and even if they do, they can't verify the process.

      The Diebolds and the Mexico's of the world are just now starting to understand this: It doesn't matter if the voting machine actually rigs the vote or not, if there's a possibility that the voting machine could have allowed the vote to be rigged, people with an axe to grind are going to grind it.

      Diebold (and digital voting advovcates like them) will always hide behind the shield of "no one has ever proven that the election was rigged" while ignoring the damage that "no one has ever proven that the election wasn't rigged" does to the entire election process.

      Digital voting is an assault on democracy. It really is as simple as that.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    6. Re:Ok by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      WTF? In your country you let *random people* wander in and help with the counting? I understand letting them observe, but not touch the ballots. Even then, I've had the misfortune to be an election officer a few times: once, we had to physically put one of the inspectors out of the door because all his snooping around and messing with stuff was preventing us from getting the job done and going home early. I cannot even begin to imagine what the situation would be like if random guys from the street just came in and offered a helping hand...

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    7. Re:Ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If states/counties are smart, they'll avoid Diebold like the plague and stick to the old voting systems until a virtually fool-proof system can be designed and built.
      The Help America Vote Act of 2002 provides federal funds to oversee the conversion. I haven't read the much of the content of the act, so I'll only comment on Section 104(a):
      "SEC. 104. <<NOTE: 42 USC 15304.>> AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.
          (a) In General.--There are authorized to be appropriated for
      payments under this title $650,000,000, of which--
                  (1) 50 percent shall be for payments under section 101; and
                  (2) 50 percent shall be for payments under section 102."
      and, if you can't be bothered to check the link, the titles for those sections are:
      SEC. 101. <<NOTE: 42 USC 15301.>> PAYMENTS TO STATES FOR ACTIVITIES TO
                  IMPROVE ADMINISTRATION OF ELECTIONS.
      SEC. 102. <<NOTE: 42 USC 15302.>> REPLACEMENT OF PUNCH CARD OR LEVER
                  VOTING MACHINES.
      The act encourages the use of alternative systems (good) but many people see this as money that needs to be spent, on any alternative (bad).
      Most of the deadlines have passed, but the millions of 'free money' should explain the buzz from lobbyists over the past few years.
    8. Re:Ok by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 1
      In your country you let *random people* wander in and help with the counting?
      I think those random people are called citizens of a democracy, so yes, everyone who can vote and has a local address, can be there and if you want to count, you just simply need to apply and they can't deny your application if you're a voter and you're not a candidate or a public official, like members of the government.

      I'm absolutely shocked by the thought that noone but select few people can take part in the vote counting where you live.

      "The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything."
      -- Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili (maybe better known as Joseph Stalin)
      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    9. Re:Ok by giorgiofr · · Score: 1

      Well, the "select few" would be the ones who bothered to sign up at the national register of election officers and, come election time, are actually called. You yourself say "you just need to apply". I had understood that in your country people simply walked in on a whim and started messing around with the ballots. Very democratic but a bit unmanageable...
      Not my problem anymore though, I am unsubscribing from the list. But instead of hitting reply I have to walk to the election office and talk to nasty little ladies and mingle with many humans :). Quite a PITA.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    10. Re:Ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in Nevada we use an electronic system made by Sequoia which has worked fine thus far. We've had our systems tested by the same people who verify that you can't cheat a slot machine (and casinos are VERY serious about keeping their money), so I feel comfortable that our systems are secure. Also, every electronic vote still has a paper record that can be verified by the voter before submitting the vote. Basically, we go through, place our vote, and are first presented with an electronic summary screen. After accepting that, a paper vote summary is printed and scrolled by (in a self-contained box behind a glass screen) and once verified, the vote is then accepted with a message printed at the bottom of the paper copy stating the acceptance. If it is not accepted, there is a message stating as much and the process is repeated.

    11. Re:Ok by symbolic · · Score: 1

      If states/counties are smart, they'll avoid Diebold like the plague and stick to the old voting systems until a virtually fool-proof system can be designed and built.

      Until a virtually fool-proof, easily verifiable and open system can be built. There is no reason an e-voting system can't be open. There is no reason whatsover that it has to be proprietary. There is no reason whatsoever, that the government cannot stipulate, as a contractual term, that any and all software and hardware design MUST BE OPEN.

      Any politician who entrusts a private, commercial entity with sole discretion (or any discretion) over voting and/or vote counting is quite clearly suffering from the myopic carelessness that comes from the prolonged exposure to a restrictive association between his head and his asshole.

    12. Re:Ok by egghat · · Score: 1

      Full Ack!

      Electronic voting is a solution in search of a problem.

      Bye egghat.

      --
      -- "As a human being I claim the right to be widely inconsistent", John Peel
  7. Good Enough for Government Work by stealie72 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, it seems like the voting system is just shoddy, not specifically corrupt. But the shoddyness sure does help the corruption.

    If only people thought their vote mattered, they might be concerned about this.

    --
    I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem
    1. Re:Good Enough for Government Work by monoqlith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. It's a vicious cycle. People are convinced that their vote doesn't matter; therefore, our election administrators can get away with an opaque, shoddy, and potentially corrupt election system. Then, stories like this come out which confirms people's mistrust, cynicism, and resulting apathy, entrenching the popular opinion that the individual vote doesn't matter. Instead of being galvanized, most people(including myself, but not anymore) just sit back and declare that the ideal of popular representation has been dead for many years already or they wait for other people(the government?) to take care of the problem. Or they declare that there is no difference between the platforms; that all politicians are the same nihilistic creatures. Or they just don't feel like worrying about it. Or they don't understand why having a privatized election system administered by political appointees and elected officials, entails a conflict of interest. There are failures of curiosity at every level of public life.

      This is not at all to say that stories like this are bad at all. They are very very good. They bring attention to probably the most important issue of our time; if we have no say in our government, then every other political issue is quite literally irrelevant. I applaud black box voting for taking this seriously, and hope that I can justify their efforts by helping to galvanize people to demand transparent voting. It is absurd that our election process is subject to error at all.

        As I've said before, it's just counting

      Why can't we get it unequivocally right? It is so easy that there has to be some interest behind not making it as transparent and rigorously accurate as humanly possible. We need to draw out these interests and cancel out any undue influence they have over our system.

    2. Re:Good Enough for Government Work by farker+haiku · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      then every other political issue is quite literally irrelevant.

      Actually, it makes the right to bear arms very relevant.

      --
      Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
    3. Re:Good Enough for Government Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because it's funny doesn't also mean it can't be true...

    4. Re:Good Enough for Government Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ouch. modded by a republican. sucks to be you!

    5. Re:Good Enough for Government Work by Bones3D_mac · · Score: 1

      "People are convinced that their vote doesn't matter..."

      Well, if you really think about it, these people aren't entirely wrong. As more people vote, each single vote submitted becomes less significant to the election's outcome.

      An intelligent candidate would take advantage of this problem by starting a massive anti-voting campaign, appeal to peoples' laziness and desire for instant gratification to deture the desire to participate. Then, locate the extremists who deem it their god-given right to vote by watching the internet and the press (letters to the editor type stuff). Finally, cooerce these remaining people into voting for you and watch the votes fly in.

      The great thing about it, is that because you've streamlined the voter pool to only a few individuals, each of their votes become far more relevant to the election results. It's also a win-win situation, since the politicians would only have to focus their efforts on persuading a few key individuals rather than a massive group, and the uber-voters get the satisfaction of knowing their vote actually has relevance over the election results without it being quite as dependent on support from other votes.

      --


      8==8 Bones 8==8
    6. Re:Good Enough for Government Work by carlmenezes · · Score: 1

      Well, with shoddiness, its easy to hide corruption. Given what we know now, how confident can you be that your last elections were not rigged? Or the ones before that? Come on, somebody has GOT to care that the whole country has very possibly been taken for a ride.

      --
      Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
    7. Re:Good Enough for Government Work by tygerstripes · · Score: 1

      Kudos for the Grim Fandango quote - I can never find a really good opportunity to use it, and I work for Local Government...

      --
      Meta will eat itself
  8. I've seen it hacked faster by neonprimetime · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I've watched illegal immigrants walk in, show NO form of identification, register, and vote in much quicker than 4 minutes.

    1. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by bishop32x · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How did you know they were illegal?

    2. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't register at the polling place. Go back to patrolling the border.

    3. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by neonprimetime · · Score: 1

      I made a prejudiced assumption. Sorry. Based on their appearance, the fact that they're co-workers, the fact that they don't have a driver's license but instead have to ride with other co-workers to work, the fact that they don't own a home and wear the same clothes over and over again, the fact that they rely on co-workers to cash their checks because they cannot get a checking account at any of the local banks. But you're right, it's just an assumption since I've never actually confronted them. Sorry.

    4. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shhh. Logic is not allowed here. This is Slashdot after all.

    5. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by neonprimetime · · Score: 1

      In the state of Wisconsin, you can register up till and on the day of voting, even at the polling location. I've done it ever since I was able to vote.

    6. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You really shouldn't stalk people like that. It's illegal.

    7. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Zenaku · · Score: 1

      Ditto in Minnesota. And I think it's a Good Thing. As long as you remember to bring your ID and Social Security card, you don't have to worry about finding that your name has gone mysteriously missing from the voter rolls despite your having registered many times.

      --
      If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
    8. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by dpbrown · · Score: 1

      Come on. He was making a good point. A pin-prick of truth. The truth hurts sometimes.

    9. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is correct. In Wis you can register on election day. There are documentation requirements though. The only state with laxer regs is North Dakota that doesn't require registration.

    10. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      ...the fact that they don't own a home and wear the same clothes over and over again,...

      Owning a home is hardly a reliable test for citizenship.

      On the other hand, if someone is not a native English speaker then it is likely that they didn't grow up in the United States and that makes it likely that they were not born with US citizenship (although it is by no means an absolute proof). Furthermore, if they are too poor to own more than one set of clothes it is unlikely that they would be able to get US citizenship if they didn't already have it.

      This would make it likely that they are illegal but is by no means a definitive proof.

      Note that I am merely commenting on the logic here. For the record I don't think there should be any restrictions at all on where anyone in the world can live and work and travel. I think these are individual decisions and the government has no right to interefere with these decisions.

    11. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by BandwidthHog · · Score: 1
      Based on their appearance, the fact that they're co-workers, the fact that they don't have a driver's license but instead have to ride with other co-workers to work, the fact that they don't own a home and wear the same clothes over and over again, the fact that they rely on co-workers to cash their checks because they cannot get a checking account at any of the local banks.

      I know some of them, too. Around these parts we call ’em “poor.”

      --

      Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
    12. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by roseblood · · Score: 1

      In California (and other states?) there are provisional ballots. You make a claim regarding your identity and the status of your voter registration. Your vote. Supposedly at some time after voting there is an investegation of some sort to determine the validity of your claim regarding identification and voter registration status.

      With estimates of two to fourteen million(depends on who you ask) illegal foreign nationals residing in California I doubt there's the manpower to check all these proviosnal ballots. That's alot of paper to go through in a very short time, with limited staff and funding.

      I don't know if it takes only 4 minutes to go through the provisional voting process as I have always had proper ID and paperwork on hand when going to vote.

      --
      There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    13. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by nojomofo · · Score: 1

      He was making a point about a completely unrelated issue. The fact that possibly illegals can vote has nothing to do with shoddy voting machines that could possibly allow for rigged elections.

    14. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Lehk228 · · Score: 2, Funny

      easy way to check, pull up in a large black van marked 'INS' the ones who scatter are the illegals

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    15. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by Verdict · · Score: 1

      I met every single one of those conditions just a few years ago. Except I'm a white male american citizen(born and raised)

    16. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by KarmaMB84 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, right. We all know that one of them simply walks up to the INS agents, waves his hand and says "these are not the aliens you're looking for" and the INS agents simply walk away.

    17. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I've watched illegal immigrants walk in, show NO form of identification, register, and vote in much quicker than 4 minutes.

      I've never lived in a place that let you register on the day of the vote. I've never been able to tell legal from illegal by sight (and I know a number of American born people, citizens from birth, with noticable foreign accents - have you ever heard of Bruce Lee?). Also, this type of "fraud" is not part of a coordinated attack, but one person voting. As long as all the illegals voted as per the local leanings, it will have no effect on the actual outcome.

      And, the one thing that I have never figured out is why the US is so xenophobic. I would have thought that a place founded by immigrants would be more open to immigrants, but then the US is the capital of "do as I say, not as I do." I was having a discussion with a member of the British Parliment, and he mentioned foreigners voting for Parliment. Well, it came up that there are even non-citizens serving on Parliment. The English philosophy is that if you live in an area, you should have representation. Period. Sounds like the foundations of the US, but not how the US impliments its policies. Even illegals pay taxes (whether they are a net drain is irrelevant). If they pay, they should be able to vote, right? That is the foundation of the Revolution.

      So why is it that the most conservative that want to get back to how the country was 200 years ago also want to ignore that fact?

    18. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1
      I've watched illegal immigrants walk in, show NO form of identification, register, and vote in much quicker than 4 minutes.
      Assuming that's true, that's a difference of one vote. Hacking a voting machine can make the difference of thousands. Sure, we shouldn't have illegal immigrants voting (or dead people, or people voting multiple times) but that's a tiny trickle compared to the potential of widespread forgery on these crapass Diebold machines.
      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    19. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 1

      In California you can do this too. But your ballot is Provisional and is put in an envelope that separates it from the rest of the ballots. It isn't counted until it can be confirmed that you haven't voted in another precinct or have sent in an Absentee ballot and are able to register in the county that you say that you live in.

    20. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Yet every time it is proposed that registration be done at the DMV where documentation could be checked, Republicans shoot it down.

    21. Re:I've seen it hacked faster by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      >How did you know they were illegal?
      Maybe they looked a bit 'funny', smelled of spicy food or somesuch. I even saw one with a droopy moustache - he just *had* to be illegal.
      (For the humour impaired, the above is a joke, just thought I'd point that out as some people here couldn't spot humour if it bit them on the ass)

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
  9. The US has always been at war with Eurasia by macadamia_harold · · Score: 1

    She has since demonstrated a successful penetration of the seals without breaking them ... all in under 4 minutes with no training or technical skills required.

    I don't see why there's not more outrage about this. Do people not understand that every liberty that we have (and used to have) stems from the ability to vote, and have your vote counted?

    1. Re:The US has always been at war with Eurasia by Kainaw · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I don't see why there's not more outrage about this.

      Well, if you are lucky, only about a third of the people eligible to vote actually do vote. Of those, half probably click on the "Democrat" or "Republican" button. Of the remaining few, most don't understand the concept of "electronic" voting. They couldn't figure out the paper ballots in Florida - now you are throwing an electronic screen at them!? So, they definately don't have any way to wrap their brain around hacking an electronic voting machine. Of the handful of people that do understand it all, most either work for the companies that make the gadgets (including the government people who support it) or they are wack-jobs that have been complaining about conspiracy theories for so long that just saying "Electronic voting booths can be hacked" comes out as "Aliens from Roswell are doing Elvis' bidding by hacking the voting booths with E-ray mind control devices to force people to vote for Reagan!!!"

      --
      The previous comment is purposely vague and generalized, but all of the facts are completely true.
  10. As Seen on TV! by Hahnsoo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Their idea of a security update probably will amount to a flashy new star-shaped sticker over the rim of the case that says "Now with new tougher security action! 25% more secure than our previous model!"

    1. Re:As Seen on TV! by just_thinkin · · Score: 1

      I know this comment was sent in as a joke, but why isn't a tamper seal placed on the case? Reading the instructions, it appears that the non-captive nut on the unsealed screw holding the memory cover plate would fall into the inside of the machine, necessitating the removal of the cover to replace. If the cover were sealed with a tamper-evident seal then there would be evidences of the nefarious doings.

    2. Re:As Seen on TV! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if someone *wants* the votes taken on said machine to come under suspicion? Stuffing the ballot box (in this case making sure there are far too many votes cast for the population) is a classic way screwing around with the paper system. If I wanted to mess things up then I'd just mess with the tamper proof seal and walk away. It'd get all those votes discounted (whether or not a revote would be held I have no idea but you get the gist).

  11. Sound familiar? by BlahMatt · · Score: 1

    http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/ 31/1646246/

    I'm thinking it may be time to start securing the balloting machines....just maybe?

    --
    To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion...
  12. Another useful experiment ... by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1

    ... would be to tamper with the seals on a few voting machines used in an election and see if anyone even notices. Based on my experiences here (the aforementioned San Diego, where technology-adept voters were helping poll workers reboot the machines and reinstall the software because the program was in RAM and the batteries ran down while the machines sat unpowered for days before the election), nobody'd even bother to check.

    1. Re:Another useful experiment ... by rjstanford · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even worse. Let's say that you're in a district where your candidate is in the minority, but that's not the case overall. You can reasonably expect most of the votes on whatever machine you're given to vote on are for her opponent. Well, simply rip the tag! Worst case, nothing happens. Best case (for you, although not for the rest of us) all of the votes on that machine get tossed out.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    2. Re:Another useful experiment ... by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      any of the devices with outside USB ports could also be vulnerable to a USB capacitor (a portable USB version of the etherkiller)

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    3. Re:Another useful experiment ... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Actually, I sometimes think that would be the best way to show America the dangers.

      Get a fairly large group together and hack the voting machines so that Lyndon LaRouche wins (or some other non-mainstream candidate). After the election, when everyone is scratching their heads, 'fess up and call it "Civil Disobedience."

    4. Re:Another useful experiment ... by Wescotte · · Score: 1

      That's a pretty good idea.. Hackers unite to rig the next election to prove it's possible.

      www.hackthevote.com

  13. The Terrorists Have Won! by MuNansen · · Score: 1, Funny

    I'm sure some pundit on Fox will talk about how doing this just "tells people how to fix elections," like videogames teach to kill, the internet teaches how to make bombs, etc.

    1. Re:The Terrorists Have Won! by Pancake+Bandit · · Score: 1

      Obviously, we need to start regulating this "internet" thing. The free exchange of ideas is a dangerous thing.

  14. nice by GodLogiK · · Score: 1, Interesting

    imagine what someone with alot of knowledge and a little time could do I wonder how many different groups of people will be trying to mess with these things lol, imagine one machine getting 'adjusted' by like 10 different people all in a row who don't notice each other... kind of comical but really seems to just be another wall going up in the way of real democracy... unfortunately I don't have any really good better suggestions so not much else I can say

  15. So okay wait. by /dev/trash · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If Democrats win in the fall elections, and these machines are still being used, will there still be an uproar?

    I'm doubtful.

    1. Re:So okay wait. by MindStalker · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm more worried about what will happen if the Democrats don't win. I'll have to hear about it for years to come.. :(

    2. Re:So okay wait. by tocs · · Score: 1

      There could be an uproar from Republicans, Green Party, independents, etc.

    3. Re:So okay wait. by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes there will be an uproar -- from the other side. If these machines are this easily hacked, then the other side can hack them also.

      Personally, I don't care who fixes the system as long as the system is fixed.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    4. Re:So okay wait. by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You mean in general, or just on slashdot?

      If the Democrats win in the fall, and they are skewed from the exit polling data, then yes, there will even be an uproar on slashdot. Now, it will mostly be split between "we need a goddamned paper trail" and the new favorite "we told you there should have been a paper trail, but nobody listened to us." The national "mainstream" (center-left) media will do their obligatory piece on it and let it die. The far left will be unusually quiet. The conservative media will, however, make up for that silence with indignation and outrage that the Left-controlled polling places were just shoddily run, and that it's all the more reason that the Left should never be allowed to run anything. /., on the whole, leans moderately left. I'd say the mean is farther left than the median, though, so there will still be uproar. You needn't worry that there will be a lack of coverage.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:So okay wait. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there should be.
      I will still be angry about their use.
      Questionable voting is not a partisan issue.

    6. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If Democrats win in the fall elections, and these machines are still being used, will there still be an uproar?
      I'm doubtful.
      C'mon, don't make this a partisan issue. Democrats are making a lot of noise about it right now because they were the ones most recently burned. Plenty of Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, and independents are just as upset about it.

      Oh, and a big difference -- the Republican party has been demonstrably messing with the election process. From worse gerrymandering (of course the Dems do it too), to manipulation of the voter rolls, Republican control of the voting apparatus has lessened the democracy of the US. When the Democrats are also demonstrated to have systematically abused the voting apparatus to rig elections, then there will be just as large an uproar.

      And one final note -- what uproar? I haven't seen one. The MSM hasn't covered this to any extent. Joe Q. Public is unaware there is a problem. If you're trying to say in your post that the media is biased, or that coverage of the issue is biased, or that Democrats are only making an issue of this because they lost, you'e way off base. It isn't the Democratic party that's making an issue of this.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    7. Re:So okay wait. by frankie · · Score: 1

      Diebold touchscreens came to Maryland in 2004. Democrats won every major vote worth mentioning (Kerry got our EVs). And guess what? Technology-savvy Marylanders of every political stripe still think they're just as terrible, and still want them eliminated.

    8. Re:So okay wait. by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 1

      I can guarantee you there will be one.

      First of all, there will be me. While I'm not a voter in your elections, I'm concerned about issues of liberty, democracy and humanity as a whole on this planet (wars, global warming, etc.). This means that I don't care about borders and countries so much, so being in a different country doesn't really stop me from having a problem with shady election practices.

      Personally, I'd prefer the democrats winning that election, but I see them as the lesser evil and not as a real alternative in your political system. Transparency matters, because I don't WANT the "better party", if the majority decided against it, but electronic voting machines managed to "fix" that. Ends don't justify the means if your target is to have some core values and live by them. Maybe it's just me. I'm not sure I count as an uproar, but I'm also hoping I'm not alone with my "weird ideas" about the above mentioned things.

      About your post, I have the feeling that you're trying to gain a high moral position. I have this to say: even if there is no uproar and slashdot users/democrats are up in arms defending Diebold after a democrat won election, that still doesn't mean we're wrong now or amoral for criticizing Diebold and electronic voting in general. That's all that matters. There is that saying about crossing the bridge when you come to it, that one perfectly applies here. IF the democrats win the elections and IF some people start defending the electronic voting they previously opposed, then you can certainly criticize them for compromising core principles for party politics. Until then, I don't see the morality of you taking the position of "you wouldn't act any better" that shines through from your post.

      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    9. Re:So okay wait. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dont know, is the democrat party going to be buddy-buddy with diebold like the republican party?

    10. Re:So okay wait. by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter who wins anymore, or even by how much margin they win by. It started in the U.S., it spread to Mexico... it will spread all over, and it will not stop. Those who lose will not accept losing, it will always be challenged. Even ancient elections where candidates conceded victory to their opponents will start saying "wait a minute..."

      I've given a lot of thought to the problems of a two party system, and have come to the conclusion that a third (or fourth) major party is not the solution. The solution is abolishing the party system altogether.

      Think about it... people wouldn't be able to vote democrat or republican, they'd actually have to know something about the candidates and make an informed decision. No more gerrymandering, no more house majority/minority leaders, elected officials would again have to campaign for committee seats (voted on by the members of congress), and they wouldn't be tenured positions, they'd expire just like other elected positions.

      Now, I realize this won't happen (because republicans would still have a republican "club", and democrats would still have a democrat "club"), but I think you could really wear it down over time and have people truly be independent, and issues would start mattering again.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    11. Re:So okay wait. by Paladin144 · · Score: 2, Funny
      Personally, I don't care who fixes the system as long as the system is fixed.

      Oh, don't worry; the system is definitely fixed. Very fixed.

    12. Re:So okay wait. by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      I would expect a bigger uproar, because Republicans seem to be better at generating uproar from the general public. They're more organized, and they've got Fox News on their side.

      If you just mean on Slashdot, yeah, many of us would be pleased to see the GOP kicked out of office. But don't think for a minute that it's because we actually like Democrats - we just hate them less at the moment, because they're too incompetent to do anything really evil. Some of us would rather see the Democrats win an election by cheating than see Republicans win fairly, just because we hate Republicans that much... but that doesn't mean we'd rather not see this problem fixed. If Democrats can use broken voting machines to swindle their way to electoral victory, it just proves that ANYBODY can use broken voting machines to swindle their way to electoral victory, and that's still a problem, even if the Republicans lose the White House and both houses of Congress.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    13. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The national "mainstream" (center-left) media will do their obligatory piece on it and let it die.

      Still buying that piece of horse-crap? The news media is center-right. Yes, even ABC, NBC, etc.

      Also, you need to rethink your definitions of left and right. Do you mean just regarding social issues? Or also fiscal issues? Because honestly, your post made almost no sense without a definition of terms.

      /., on the whole, leans moderately left.
      If that were so, we wouldn't see so many posts like yours getting modded up. It's a guaranteed upmod -- just spout some nonsense about some tangentially liberal/conservative dichotomous issue, and then say slashdot leans left.

      Newsflash: the center has moved to the right, largely due to the media and the greater birth rate among conservatives. What you consider left-of-center used to be the center.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    14. Re:So okay wait. by daigu · · Score: 1

      It's not a Democratic or Republican issue. It's about accuracy. The problem is that there is evidence that Republicans have worked to make voting records inaccurate to serve their own ends. However, given the War in Iraq, corruption charges de jure, Administration efforts to absolve itself of the crimes they committed under the War Crimes Act that would be followed-up on if the Congress were to change hands, etc., I think we have every reason to believe that an accurate count of the ballots this November will change the political landscape a bit so all branches of government are not in Republican hands - not a bad thing. I'd rather that no party have complete control over all branches of government and this is a small correction that is long overdue.

    15. Re:So okay wait. by ksheff · · Score: 1

      Cynthia McKinny didn't mind electronic voting machines until she lost, so I'm guessing the answer to your question will be no.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    16. Re:So okay wait. by Glass+Lizard · · Score: 1

      If Democrats win in the fall elections and these machines are still being used, I hope there is an uproar. Having both parties feeling that they were hurt by something recently is often the fastest way to convince politicians to fix this sort of problem.

    17. Re:So okay wait. by dfinster · · Score: 1
      But don't think for a minute that it's because we actually like Democrats - we just hate them less at the moment, because they're too incompetent to do anything really evil.
      You hate them less because you have a short memory.
      Democrats are completely competent and able to screw you over. Don't forget it.
    18. Re:So okay wait. by mrosgood · · Score: 1
      C'mon, don't make this a partisan issue.


      Exactly right. Election integrity is a non-partisan issue.

      Right now, it's us voters against the politicians and the corporations. And many of us (voters) are getting screwed.

      As Andrew Gumbel details in the book "Steal This Vote", corruption is primarily a function of opportunity. Maybe the Republicans are currently better at it. But there's plenty of blame to go around.

      Here in King County Washington, as elsewhere, the Democrats are the ones ushering in electronic voting and forced mail voting. And then from the right, we have our Republican Secretary of State is doing his bit to monkey with the statewide voter registration database. (The Brennan Center recently one their lawsuit against the new rules: Washington Association of Churches et. al. v. Reed .)

      So, from where I'm sitting, neither political party is looking very pretty.
    19. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Well, in any bureaucratic organization where access to power can be used to ensure future access to power, you'll have this situation... it's human nature. As you say, neither side is innocent. A main problem is that there are only two sides, the election structure we currently have forces us to choose between the lesser of two evils -- there is no opportunity for wholesale regime change.

      The corporatocracy has us by the balls, and the elction system has been fixed to ensure we can only choose which teste to cling to.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    20. Re:So okay wait. by workindev · · Score: 2, Insightful
      the Republican party has been demonstrably messing with the election process

      I can only assume that you actually meant "allegedly" when you typed "demonstrably" because nobody has demonstrated anything about the election process being "messed" with by the Republican party. There sure have been plenty of baseless allegations, though.
    21. Re:So okay wait. by Thundersnatch · · Score: 2, Insightful
      When the Democrats are also demonstrated to have systematically abused the voting apparatus to rig elections, then there will be just as large an uproar.

      Umm... you've never heard of the city of Chicago and the "Democratic Machine"? Over 70 years of outright fraud, including swinging the 1960 presedential election in favor of Kennedy (ballot stuffing to the tune of 91% of the vote!). Newer crimes and misdemeanors by the Chicago Machine are uncovered almost weekly, with Mayor Daley and Governer Rod Blagojevich sacrificing thier staff to Federal investiagors.

      Republicans or Democrats, the party in power will always have players with few scruples that try to rig the election process. The answer? Always vote against the incumbent, no matter what their party affiliation. You'll be better off.

    22. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 0, Troll
      because nobody has demonstrated anything about the election process being "messed" with by the Republican party.
      Bullshit. The gerrymandering by the Republican party has been well-documented; just because the Supreme Court ruled that mid-decade redistricting in Texas was not unconstitutional doesn't mean it isn't gerrymandering.

      So, no, I did not mean 'allegedly.' I meant 'demonstrably.' There sure have been many idiots who deny it, though.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    23. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      I'm not disagreeing with you, but please remember that the memory of the public is very short-spanned. You think anyone now cares about the old Democratic Machine in Chi-town or Tammany Hall in NY? Or the Ohio bosses?

      Daley is more current, but the scope is a lot different than the attempts to rig a recent national election.

      Republicans or Democrats, the party in power will always have players with few scruples that try to rig the election process. The answer? Always vote against the incumbent, no matter what their party affiliation. You'll be better off.

      Agreed. Except for the 'better off' part. The only solution is to dissolve the two-party system and either institute parliamentary government or true multi-party elections. As I said in an earlier post (in slightly different words):

      The corporatocracy has us by the balls, and the two-party system leaves us choosing only which teste we cling to.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    24. Re:So okay wait. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Oh, and a big difference -- the Republican party has been demonstrably messing with the election process
      You make it sound like the Reps are the only ones.
      How bout slashing the tires of opposition campaign workers the day of an election.
      This may be an isolated case, but the Dems definitly aren't "innocent".
    25. Re:So okay wait. by workindev · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Congressional redistricting isn't "messing" with the election process, it is part of the election process. SCOTUS confirmed this two months ago.

    26. Re:So okay wait. by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      Yes remember the "Explicit Content" stickers when you go to vote for Clinton in 2008.

    27. Re:So okay wait. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can pretty much bet that any argument that begins with "Just because the Supreme Court ruled ..." is going to be hollow and brain-dead.

    28. Re:So okay wait. by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      I did say we hate them less at the moment.

      I don't remember the clipper chip, but that article doesn't seem to contradict my assertion that the Democrats are incompetent.

      I think I might vaguely remember something about CALEA. It sounds like there are technical problems with it (thus supporting my claim of incompetency), but the intention is OK. I support the ability of the government to eavesdrop on my telephone conversations with a warrant, but doing so with encrypted VOIP isn't technically feasible. It's not a problem now because VOIP isn't that widespread now, but if a time comes when a significant percentage of the general public is using VOIP instead of more traditional telephone networks, it will be an issue.

      I'm surprised you didn't mention the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, which along with the DMCA are significantly evil things passed with full Democratic support. Still, it's not as if Republicans don't like those just as much.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    29. Re:So okay wait. by dfinster · · Score: 1
      I don't remember the clipper chip,
      Ok, now I feel old.

      The Clipper chip was big news, and it wasn't that long ago... Only 16 years. Well, I guess that was a while ago.

      Get off my lawn you darn kids!
    30. Re:So okay wait. by jamstar7 · · Score: 1
      A main problem is that there are only two sides, the election structure we currently have forces us to choose between the lesser of two evils -- there is no opportunity for wholesale regime change.

      No, the problem is, the lesser of two evils is STILL evil. This needs to be fixed. How? I haven't a clue, but I'm willing to listen & brainstorm on any possible fixes...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    31. Re:So okay wait. by doom · · Score: 1
      It doesn't matter who wins anymore, or even by how much margin they win by. It started in the U.S., it spread to Mexico... it will spread all over, and it will not stop. Those who lose will not accept losing, it will always be challenged.
      Listen: you really, really need to look into this more, because you've been suckered. You think that all these complaints about the 2004 election are just whining by the losers, but there's more going on than sour grapes. Look up the current state of the analysis of exit poll data -- the media dropped the story when it was ambiguous how bad the problem was, if you look into it, I think you'll find it looks really, really bad.

      If this kind of discrepancy happened in any other country (and then had been swept under the rug!) there would be no question in your mind that an election had been rigged. Seriously, this is like something out of Soviet Russia... Oops, the exit polls went one way, and the results went another? Oh wait, here let us "correct the data". See, now it matches!

    32. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      It's an abuse of the election process to redistrict in order to increase a party's representation in legislature. It's disenfranchisement of some of the people.

      The SCOTUS is not infallible, and is bound by a fallible document.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    33. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      You can pretty much bet that any argument that begins with "Just because the Supreme Court ruled ..." is going to be hollow and brain-dead.

      Well, AC, I must have missed the decree that the SCOTUS and the Constitution are infallible. Because neither has ever been wrong before, right?

      The problem now is that in order for the SCOTUS to rule differently, the laws must be changed, and that will never happen when doing so is harmful to the people in power.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    34. Re:So okay wait. by workindev · · Score: 1
      It's an abuse of the election process to redistrict in order to increase a party's representation in legislature. It's disenfranchisement of some of the people.

      Actually, no. The 2003 redistricting plan corrected the disenfranchisement of the majority of Texas voters. 56% of Texas voters had voted for Republican representation in the house, but the Democrats still had a two seat congressional advantage for Texas because of poor districting lines. The redistricting plan fixed that problem.
    35. Re:So okay wait. by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I should have said "left of the current center"? Did anyone mistake me for being in the 1860s?

      Of course I meant the current center; and left/right seem primarily dependent on social issues. Environmental is almsost always a for/against left/right thing. Fiscal conservatism, afaict doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't since before I was born (in th 60s). Even the Reagan era wasn't dominated by fiscal conservatives - they spent all the money, it just went to contractors.

      The national media tends to be press release driven, so it's hard to pin them to a particular stance. I tend to agree with them a good bit of the time, and I feel I'm left of center (environmentally left, socially moderate, fiscally conservative, always been a Democrat). There seem to be fewer far-left media outlets than far-right, which may skew my view of what is "center". Still, center isn't some absolute point in space, it will always be relative to the current trends.

      Slashdot does lean left. When I post a politcally leftist comment, I get modded up. When I post a politically right comment (sometimes even in jest) I get modded down. There is no lack of left wing nutjobs here, but they also get modded down. I'm just glad I'm not one of the Libertarians, since they are in the position of having to agree with the far-left nuts more and more often in the face of the stupid shit the current right keeps trying to pull. I'm pretty sure that every time they agree with a lefty, they feel like they need a shower. They don't shower, of course...as is their right to complete freedom from having to give in to any social moors.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    36. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      You mistakenly think that representation in the Texas legislature should be proportional to the views of the population as a whole. This is a really common fallacy, and not in line with how districted legislatures should work in theory. Not saying that the way it had been was perfect, but why even bother with districted elections if the districts are fudged to represent the voter breakdown across the whole state?

      I don't know the solution to the problem of gerrymandering, since baseline districts have long ceased to exist. But it's a simple fact that districted elections do not, and IMO should not, always reflect the popular vote across all districts.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    37. Re:So okay wait. by Duhavid · · Score: 1
      The corporatocracy has us by the balls, and the two-party system leaves us choosing only which teste we cling to.


      So, get corporations out of politics. No money to be
      given by corporations to politicians under any curcumstances.
      No lobbying by corporations, or by corporate officers.

      And to any "but that limits free speech" comments, corporations
      are not persons, are not citizens, they dont need any speech.
      The corporation owners are already represented in the "normal"
      voting system.

      I know... It has a snowball's chance of getting enacted, but
      it seems to me that it would do the trick. Until the money
      bags figure out another end run around it, anyway.
      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    38. Re:So okay wait. by workindev · · Score: 1

      I disagree. The whole point of a representative Republic is to have elected representatives that reflect the views of the people who elected them. That clearly was not the case in Texas prior to the 2003 redistricting.

    39. Re:So okay wait. by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      The whole point of districted elections is to prevent a tyranny of the simple majority. Fudging districts to fix elections wrt the popular vote allows for that possibility.
      The whole point of a representative Republic is to have elected representatives that reflect the views of the people who elected them.

      Exactly, but WHO elected them is the problem. The reps shouldn't represent the population as a whole; they should reflect the population of their constituency. The Distric 25 gerrymander was struck down by SCOTUS for good reason, and it's indicative of the blatant use of redistricting for partisan cause.

      Again, I'm not saying the Dems were any better when in power... but gerrymandering as a whole has got to stop. Let an independent commission do the redistricting -- several states have such systems in place (Oregon, I believe, plus one or two others).
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  16. why is it secured in the first place? by wfberg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What I wonder is: why is it secured in the first place?

    No really, why should a memory card containing results need to be secured with a coverplate? It's the contents of the card that matters. Can't the authenticity of the card's content be ascertained without needing it NOT to fall in wrong hands? Is there no encryption used, no message authentication? Is there no protocol whereby officials at least sign off on a print-out containing the count, and some checksums? Wouldn't there need to be no need to secure the card itself? I mean, the machine (and it's RAM), obviously, but the card should only contain a copy of the results - a copy that will be in tomorrows papers anyway.

    The fact that someone (at Diebold even!) saw the need to put a coverplate in front of the memory card speaks volumes as to the system's design assumptions. That the machines are left with people overnight only makes things much, much worse.

    And that website's "web 2.0" ajaxy slidey photo thingy makes me dizzy and kinda nauseuous..

    --
    SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    1. Re:why is it secured in the first place? by Jarnis · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because the braindead system can be r00ted using a memory card - if a specially prepared card is in at boot, it can boot from the card and utterly pwn the software inside.

      Logic being 'ease of updating', but the safeguards in place against inserting something other than an authorized, verified and certified update are close to nonexisting.

      So, in essence, if you have access to the memory card slot, some time, and capability to reboot the machine, you can pwn the election. And it will most likely be untraceable.

    2. Re:why is it secured in the first place? by theufo · · Score: 2, Informative
    3. Re:why is it secured in the first place? by tocs · · Score: 1

      You might need the (a better) cover to keep some one from stealing the card. If the election looks like it is going poorly for your favorite you could steal the card at the end of the day and your candidate would have a second chance.

    4. Re:why is it secured in the first place? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      Is there no encryption used, no message authentication? Is there no protocol whereby officials at least sign off on a print-out containing the count, and some checksums? Wouldn't there need to be no need to secure the card itself? I mean, the machine (and it's RAM), obviously, but the card should only contain a copy of the results - a copy that will be in tomorrows papers anyway.

      No, I think you have the wrong country!

    5. Re:why is it secured in the first place? by telbij · · Score: 1

      pwn has gotta be the lamest word ever invented. Please restrict its usage to Halo and Counter Strike.

    6. Re:why is it secured in the first place? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you could merely swap the card and steal the one containing all the votes. If you were voting in a district where you disagreed with most people and you took it late in the day you could easily wipe quite a number of votes off the record.

      Admittedly this isn't as effective as changing them to being of your party, and is obvious tampering. It might be worth considering if you wished to tamper in an election that almost certainly won't be rerun such as for the president.

  17. Would some forethought be too much to ask? by tenaciousdRules · · Score: 1

    Diebold. 1906 sent you a telegraph. They want their crappy security back. Seriously though, shouldn't we be worried about accountability here? Put biometrics into the machine. Make someone digitally sign it out (scan a finger print or something). From the moment it is signed for, audit every action taken on it. Void the machine if there is a secuirty breach. Not that my idea matters, smarter people than I who are closer to the issue have raised these concerns. I can't wait to vote 6,000,000 times for Alfred E. Newman in the upcoming elections.

    --
    --Always, I mean never..., No I mean always check your references.--
  18. Cue law suit in three... two... by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1

    Joke aside, isn't it illegal to go through people's trash (although perhaps mostly unenforced?) I though even cops need search warrant to go through suspect's trash can.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
    1. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by joe+155 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      in England it would be, here it blongs to the person who originally owned it until it is collected by the bin men, then it is owned by the council. I've seen on CSI them saying that the cops can take it... something about being discraded - it might work the same way for any citizen. Although CSI is about the depth of my knowledge on your laws (perfect for /.)

      --
      *''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
    2. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by sjaskow · · Score: 1, Informative

      Since in Greenwood v. Califonia the SCOTUS ruled "a warrantless inspection of garbage left at the curb for collection does not constitute a fourth amendment search that intrudes into a Reasonable expectation of privacy", most courts say no. However, there might be an appealable verdict if the garbage was the only evidence

      IANAL YMMV.

    3. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by bluekanoodle · · Score: 1
      If I remember correctly, it is the other way around. Once you set it on the curb, your expectation or right to privacy goes out the window, at least according to the US Supreme Court.


      Here's a link I found on the case:


      http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/legal/l1980/Gr eenwood.htm

    4. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      No, anything put out on the curb or in a public-accessible dumpster is free for the taking. If the dumpster is protected, or the trash cans are not on the curb, then their contents are considered private.

      My mother-in-law, for example, pays extra to have side-yard trash service. She never has to set them on the curb; they are picked up from where they normally sit on the side of her house. As a result, there is never a legal time that the public can retrieve things. (Perhaps the trash men themselves can. I don't know.)

      Go read the summary of this HGTV trash borrowing show. They take garbage from a home owner's curb, fix it up, and secretly return it.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    5. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Elemenope · · Score: 1

      It depends on where you are. Most jurisdictions still operate on the rule that trash represents items that the person has released from their possession, and therefore their control. In some jurisdictions, trash scavenging and in particular dumpster diving is illegal because of trade secret protection (and, laterally, plausible deniability for illegal corporate activity).

      --
      All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
    6. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 1

      I think an insurgent (to call a spade a spade) bent on changing the outcome of an election will give little to no consideration to such a law, if it exists in a given jurisdiction.

    7. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 3, Funny

      Not necessarily.

      There's a pretty funny story in Portland, Oregon where local law enforcement was caught going through various peoples' trash, and they claimed that once the trash had been put out on the curb (never mind that in some cases the trash was still on the peoples' properties), that it was available to the public.

      Whereupon one of the local papers took it upon themselves to look through the Mayor's & the Chief of Police's trash, and reported what they found. Fortunately for the two officials, they didn't have anything condemning in their trash, but apparently the Mayor was absolutely furious (and of course was making suing noises), whereas the Police Chief seemed to be a bit more stoic.

      I think I hunted down the link here. It was quite awhile ago, so they might've passed a law by now that protects officials (but not ordinary citizens of course) from such shenanigans.

    8. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Halo- · · Score: 1
      Joke aside, isn't it illegal to go through people's trash (although perhaps mostly unenforced?) I though even cops need search warrant to go through suspect's trash can.

      Nope, I'm pretty sure you're wrong here. Once you place something in a publicly accessible space, it's considered fair game. That's why going through a suspect's trash is such a powerful tool. It doesn't require a warrant, but it can be used as evidence to get one.

      Logically it has to be. Otherwise when does "privacy" end? Once it's loaded into the trash truck? Once it's landfilled?

    9. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      Allen wrenches will be outlawed in no time!!!

      --
      So say we all
    10. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Phroggy · · Score: 1
      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    11. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      No, anything put out on the curb or in a public-accessible dumpster is free for the taking. If the dumpster is protected, or the trash cans are not on the curb, then their contents are considered private.
      Depends on where you live. Here in Somerset County NJ, my garbage and recycling become the property of the municipality when I put them on the curb. It's illegal to tamper with them in any way by anyone other than the designated agent of the township. This may have stemmed from people stealing recyclables (there's profit to be had there), but it applies to anything discarded.

      I'm not sure if this covers things put out at times other than recycling/garbage day. I know I'll get a ticket if I put things out a day early (like when I last took a vacation) -- so I'm guessing that the municipal possession only applies to waste put out with the authority of the town (like recycling/garbage day, or when I call to schedule a bulk pickup).

      This is in NJ (who knew our garbage rules would be so strict?). IANAL, YMMV, NIMBY, etc.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    12. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      It depends. Where I live, it's illegal to root around through most garbage (i.e., dumpsters, garbage bags, boxes), but it's legal to take large unboxed items like discarded furniture or appliances such that there's no real privacy issue at hand.

    13. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by ThisNukes4u · · Score: 1

      In the U.S., once it hits the curb, its public domain.

      --
      thisnukes4u.net
    14. Re:Cue law suit in three... two... by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      With specific restrictions (in King County, Washington)

      If it's still on private property, and posted as such "No Tresspassing", "Private Property, Do Not Enter"; or if there is a lock on the container - even if it is not engaged: it's illegal to take items from containers.

      It is legal to Salvage/"Dumpster Dive" here (subject to city laws), as long as it's a publicly accessable container (like a dumpster behind a retail localation), and you are not taking anything that can be used for indentity theft (bills, recipts, medical records, etc.)

  19. A Negative Negative by w33t · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here's a ridiculous idea.

    Have the voters fill out a scantron-type ballot. And then have the voter/user feed that ballot through two different voting machines made by two different manufacturers.

    This way there would be a paper record and two, seperate databases to compare to each other.

    This would double the effort (or perhaps square it at best) for hacking and would allow manual recounts from random sample districts to test the accuracy of the two machines.

    1. Re:A Negative Negative by pikakilla · · Score: 1

      While in theroy that is a great idea, in practice it will fail miserably. I would assume that a sizable portion of the population would be confused by two ballot boxes and believe that they are getting "two votes" even if there are signs/directions on the ballots/verbal directions/video directions and a person over their sholder telling them that the ballot is for one vote but go into two different machines. Instead have a computerized voting system that has a sealed bank of paper ballots (with an electronic copy), and prints out a paper ballot to be fed into a machine that will count the votes. This would produce the same result, but wouldnt confuse a lot of voters, and as an added bonus, this kind of system would be compatable with optical ballots so those who are too scared of computers can vote without fear.

    2. Re:A Negative Negative by asylumx · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's what my district does except they don't have redundant readers. Still, one paper copy and one database means reporting is easy yet if there's a problem, they have hard copies to fall back on.

      I think the biggest push behind electronic voting is that it's a silver bullet to fix all the "fixing" that you hear about in the news around our voting system. The truth is, you'd have to do an awful lot of fixing, all over the country to actually throw the presidential vote without it being obvious. As for the smaller votes like city/county/state... does it really matter? Maybe my view there is skewed because I'm in more of a rural area but I don't really see a ton of results coming out of the lower level politicians.

      So basically... Electronic voting would be "cool" but it's probably not necessary by any means. As for security... is any type of voting really secure? Do we really care anyway?

    3. Re:A Negative Negative by SuperBanana · · Score: 1
      Have the voters fill out a scantron-type ballot. And then have the voter/user feed that ballot through two different voting machines made by two different manufacturers.

      Small counties and towns (where a few thousands dollars is a major expense) are already grumbling about electronic voting. Now you want to double the cost?

      Second, didn't you use scantron forms in high school? In my school, we had to spend half an hour having the teacher read back the correct multiple-choice answers, and usually a half dozen of them would be scored incorrectly. That was roughly a 1-in-5 error rate.

    4. Re:A Negative Negative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      And then have the voter/user feed that ballot through two different voting machines made by two different manufacturers.


      The problem with that? Diebold and ES&S, the two main manufacturers of voting equipment in the US whose machines were responsible for handling ~80% of the votes cast in the US during the '04 elections, are owned, respectively, by brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich. Bob oversaw development of both Diebold and ES&S's software, as well... I hardly say running votes through ES&S/Diebold machines shows anything since, fundamentally, they're using the same code base. A hack for one company's machines, in all probability, will work on the other.

      The only benefit of your approach is, of course, the PAPER TRAIL, which these companies seem wholly oppossed to implementing.
    5. Re:A Negative Negative by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

      The republicans have already refused to do anything like that. They hate the idea of a discrepancy more than they hate the idea of cheating.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    6. Re:A Negative Negative by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's a ridiculous idea.

      Have the voters fill out a scantron-type ballot. And then have the voter/user feed that ballot through two different voting machines made by two different manufacturers.

      This way there would be a paper record and two, seperate databases to compare to each other.

      This would double the effort (or perhaps square it at best) for hacking and would allow manual recounts from random sample districts to test the accuracy of the two machines.


      I'm confused how reduculous this is supposed to be.

      I've said from day one that these stupid election ballots should be scantron-like becauase its inexpensive and proven technology that everybody is capable of using and is computer and human readable.

      The best thing for the machines to do is to sort the sheets by candidate, and add a timestamp or sequence number to each one and a quick visual inspection by any moron would be able to tell if candidate A's votes were in candidates B's pile and if A's pile was bigger than B's pile. There is a written record. Slop and randomness by people to ensure they weren't stuffed. Inexpensive. Every damn thing about them are perfect except Diebold can't make money off of existing standardized equipement now can they?

    7. Re:A Negative Negative by WillDraven · · Score: 1

      My idea is to have a touchscreen or button next to LCD interface for the voter to use, alongside a clear window where the user can see the paper trail as its printed, in both human and machine readable formats, and asked to confirm that thier votes are being accurately represented. The machine readable part of the paper trail should include a hash or encrypted representation of the timestamp, which ballot number for this machine it is, and the votes themselves.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    8. Re:A Negative Negative by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      I've said from day one that these stupid election ballots should be scantron-like becauase its inexpensive and proven technology that everybody is capable of using and is computer and human readable.

              I think that some people far over-estimate the voters in Florida.

    9. Re:A Negative Negative by forand · · Score: 1

      The major problem with this type of voting is that it does not easliy allow for handicaped voters to vote without help thus making their vote not private. While I think it is much more important for society to trust the voting system then to have easy or perfect voting for everyone, the courts, rightfully following the laws, have ruled this is a major problem.

    10. Re:A Negative Negative by w33t · · Score: 1

      I'm confused how reduculous this is supposed to be.

      I'm glad you didn't think it was ridiculous.

      I guess I said it was ridiculous in anticipation of a backlash at my idea. But, judging by the relative lack of lash, I guess it's not as crazy an idea as I originally thought.

      I'm glad to see people like you who agree with me.

    11. Re:A Negative Negative by megaditto · · Score: 1

      What happens when a newbie votes for A, changes her mind, tries to erase A and vote for B. This is what happened in the Orange county in 2000 where some people found the ballot confusing and had to change their selection.

      How are your machines going to deal with such equivalent of a 'hanging chad'? How is this going to be handled during the recount? (Say, the machine called it B, while A's lawers claim the voter intended A).

      Notice that the 'hanging chad' recount problem is about the only reason we need electronic voting: enforcing unambiguous selection guaranteed consistent during the recount.

      So, why not have the machine produce a voter-viewable paper record instead, to enforce one-candidate unambiguous selection?

      Still, scantrons are WAY better than the magic-hat shitboxes Diebold currently provides.

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    12. Re:A Negative Negative by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      What happens when a newbie votes for A, changes her mind, tries to erase A and vote for B. This is what happened in the Orange county in 2000 where some people found the ballot confusing and had to change their selection.

      How are your machines going to deal with such equivalent of a 'hanging chad'? How is this going to be handled during the recount? (Say, the machine called it B, while A's lawers claim the voter intended A).


      Your right. Harvard is filled with community college capable people and community college is filled with Harvard capable people because of scantron issues like hanging chads, confusing true/false things, and whatnot.

      If an election is that close that its down to a hanging chad or something, I say we settle it like we do all things that are a tie.

      Get the candidates to do a 2 out of 3 game of rock paper scissors.

      I mean, WTF did hanging chads have to do with anything when the guy was appointed by the Supreme Court and the other guy conceded? Do you really think the smoke and mirrors at a magic show are there because the stuff going on there really is magic?

      Still, scantrons are WAY better than the magic-hat shitboxes Diebold currently provides.

      Yes. They are. Easily used by people, rereadable, builtin paper trail, familiar by users, fast, inexpensive. I cannot think of a better system.

    13. Re:A Negative Negative by cleanroom · · Score: 0

      A better idea for those who still want the electronic whiz-bang shinyness, but want a verifiable paper trail.
      Keep the well-known serialized scantron ballots. "They just work"(tm).
      Have the voting machine fill in the dots, add a voting machine serial number, precinct, etc, and timestamp.
      The voting machine shall not retain any vote information. The only thing it shall retain is a log of tamper attempts, and generate an alarm on that event.

      Make a vote reader machine available, made by a different manufacturer with absoultly no connection with the voting machine manufacturer.
      Place it over the slot of the sealed collection box. It reads the scantron, displays the results to the voter and asks "is this how you voted?" Y/N. If Yes, it kicks it into the sealed box. If No, it returns it to the voter, sounds an signal so poll workers can issue a replacement ballot. The invalid ballot is marked as invalid and placed in another sealed box for review.

      Alternatively, a "check for accuracy" machine with the same manufacturer conditions, could be placed next to the voting machine in the booth. The accuracy check would be voluntary, but recommended.
      The vote verify machine will not retain any data except tamper logs.

      When all ballots are counted at a central location, analysis of the timestamps, serial numbers, precincts, etc. can point out fraud attempts. Timestamps on particular machines too close or too regular, serial numbers not matching with precincts, etc.
      Make the non-changing info difficult to forge. Engraved serial number stamps, for example.
      Engineer any seals on the voting and check machines such that tampering stops the machine, but make the seals difficult to access to prevent malicious damaging of the machines.

      Feel free to blow holes in this, I'm just rambling.

  20. Legal defense fund by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is there a page for contributing to her legal defense fund, or am I getting ahead of myself here?

  21. Just my guess by paranode · · Score: 1

    But I think there is an assumption that the people running the polls will not allow a team of hackers to sit there at the Diebold machine prodding and prying at it, soldering logic boards onto it, and all the other funky stuff they've been doing to Diebold machines to make them mess up. I could just drive a truck into it, that would be even easier than hacking it!

    1. Re:Just my guess by Osty · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But I think there is an assumption that the people running the polls will not allow a team of hackers to sit there at the Diebold machine prodding and prying at it, soldering logic boards onto it, and all the other funky stuff they've been doing to Diebold machines to make them mess up. I could just drive a truck into it, that would be even easier than hacking it!

      It's not people at the polling place that they're concerned with. Its the corrupt officials who get to take the machine home with them, who could replace valid vote data with a trumped up memory card showing a clear majority win for whoever is paying them the most. The "tag" on the metal cover is supposed to prove that the machine has not been tampered with. This article proves that you can tamper with the data all you like without breaking that tag.

      In a sense, this is even worse than a hacker attacking the machine right at the polling place. In this scenario, you feel like you've excercised your right to vote and contributed to the process of making things better, but in reality your vote never got counted at all. It was replaced by a dummy vote.

    2. Re:Just my guess by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      And assumptions are where the system breaks down. How do you KNOW they won't? You don't. So you have to guard against it. It's why security exists in the first place: because people are unscrupulous, devious and selfish.

      Driving a truck would invalidate that device. Can we synchronize taking out hundreds of voting machines by truck? Sure, but it might be a tad suspicious. Digitally altering it is virtually untracable if they do it right.

      This particular workaround doesn't require solder or anything fancy either.

    3. Re:Just my guess by TempeTerra · · Score: 1
      ...but in reality your vote never got counted at all. It was replaced by a dummy vote.

      A vote for Bush then ? ;)
      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
  22. Amazing. by sco08y · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    A couple of untrained 54-year old women from Black Box Voting bought $12 worth of tools and in four minutes penetrated the memory card seals, removed, replaced the memory card, and sealed it all up again without leaving a trace.

    54 years old AND women. /sarc

  23. Some things should NOT be electronic by Unlikely_Hero · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This just goes to show that there are a great number of things that should not be computerized/network connected etc.
    Just as one should not have an internet accessible refrigerator "mom! someone hacked the fridge again and turned the cooling off! Oh god the smell!!"
    One should not have electronic voting machines. Seriously, why the hell do we need electronic voting other than that a great deal of people were, excuse my honesty, too goddamn stupid to understand how to use a paper ballot.
    Another case of the ignorant masses rising up, bitching about how things are "too hard" and overcoming those of us who can follow simply printed instructions with their sheer moronic numbers.
    Fellow /.ers (particularly those of us in the states). Do you ever feel like you're strapped to a chair with a wet towel over your head surrounded by people who can't tie their own shoes without managing to injure themselves?

    --
    Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
    1. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by Volante3192 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem isn't that it's electronic, the problem is it's not being held to any sort of secure criteria. Just compare Nevada slot machines to a Diebold device. Hell, compare Diebold ATMs to Diebold voting machines. It's a world of difference.

      It also shows the importance we place on money versus our government...

      I'm all for this, but no one has proven they can do it right. Maybe we should just replace voting machines with slot machines...

    2. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by Unlikely_Hero · · Score: 1

      the end results would probably be similar.
      oh, and the number of people who vote would sky rocket.

      --
      Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
    3. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by jonno317 · · Score: 1

      but it would still just be the old voting.

    4. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by graffix_jones · · Score: 1

      Actually, I disagree. Voting lends itself perfectly to electronic means, provided that it is done securely.
      After all, you have millions of pieces of data (votes) that must be analyzed, classified, and reported, which is exactly what computers were designed to do.
      The U.S. Census used to be a hand count as well, and one of the first computers designed was to help with the census count. The Census of 1950 was the first to use computer assistance, which was completed in record time and was probably the most accurate count up until that time (human counters aren't infallible as we all know).
      For instance, millions of bank transactions are completed daily in a highly secure manner, so if computers are trusted with highly sensitive bank transaction information, why not votes?

      To me it's all how secure the system is. If the electronic voting system is secure (beyond what Diebold deems 'secure'), I see no problem with conducting electronic elections.

    5. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      The big difference between bank accounts and votes is that the votes are secret and non-verifiable even to the voter. If something goes wrong with bank accounts, the owner of the account will notice and most likely complain. As the voter, for good reason, cannot verify that his individual vote (account) is counted correctly, there's a huge difference in verification mechanics between the two systems.

    6. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by lordscotus · · Score: 1

      See, they want electronic voting machines because people's gnat like attention spans can't wait while they count all these paper ballots! ;-) Seriously, speed and saving money seems to be driving it. ... So let's have it both ways: People can vote on a machine that will have a printout which is deposited into the OFFICIAL ballot box, ... whilst the electronic tabulation gives us a quick UNOFFICIAL count for the late news.

    7. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by BryanL · · Score: 1

      I think Arizona is trying to make a voting booth a lottery booth. Is that close enough?

    8. Re:Some things should NOT be electronic by jamstar7 · · Score: 1
      The problem isn't that it's electronic, the problem is it's not being held to any sort of secure criteria. Just compare Nevada slot machines to a Diebold device. Hell, compare Diebold ATMs to Diebold voting machines. It's a world of difference.

      So the solution is an electronic voting machine that pays off if you get lucky? Cool...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  24. Voters Confidence by mkosmo · · Score: 0, Troll

    Although I may not be too happy with how easy it is to tamper these machines, we must also think... how easy is it to tamper hard paper ballots? Counterfeit them and place more in the slot? I do not think that just because somebody sits down and spends the time figuring out how to hack it means it is in danger. The average Joe cannot do anything... Plus, you spend the time figuring it out and somebody will be suspicious. Maybe put alarms in the machines? Then it would be harder to hack than a paper ballot.

  25. Wouldn't it be easier... by Azreal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If fixing an election was the objective, why bother with removing a memory card? Wouldn't it be easier to get a few people together and go to precincts known to vote one way or another and just break the plastic "security" tags? When the count comes up you can raise a fuss about the tags being broken and having the votes discounted.

    --
    $sys$droids
    1. Re:Wouldn't it be easier... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Karl? Is that you? I thought we agreed to not discuss this in public until 2009.

  26. Site is unreadable. by Animats · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The site referenced is so crapped up with "Web 2.0" junk that it doesn't work. The picture links result in a neat animated effect in which a translucent rectangle grows. Then it disappears without displaying the picture, at least in Firefox 1.5.

    If you have something important to say, use standard HTML. Especially if it's something important enough that it should be archived. Using "TiddlyWiki" with images on Flickr means your site will not be archived properly, and many search engines won't even index it with all that Javascript.

    1. Re:Site is unreadable. by giafly · · Score: 1
      The site referenced is so crapped up with "Web 2.0" junk that it doesn't work.
      Geez! Read the HTML source like I did.

      A more tedious problem is that Slashdot still haven't fixed the damn script error when you scroll IE with debugging enabled.
      Message: "A Runtime Error has occurred ... Line: 427, Error: Object Required"
      Statement: gd.style.display='inline'
      Just after: if (xy[1] -14) {gd.style.top='4px'; gd.style.position='fixed'; gd.style.left='1em';}
      --
      Reduce, reuse, cycle
    2. Re:Site is unreadable. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I had no problems, everything worked fine. But then, I was using Opera.

  27. obligatory by gsn · · Score: 4, Funny

    In Soviet Russia machine cast your vote for you... wait shit that happens here too

    --
    Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
  28. Most gratuitous use of Javascript yet! by darien · · Score: 5, Funny

    Impressive. They hacked a Diebold voting machine in less time than it took me to work out how to navigate their photo-story!

  29. Format of the linked article by ergo98 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Try viewing it without JavaScript (e.g. like those of us with NoScript). Look at the source -- OMG.

    That now qualifies as the most atrocious use of JavaScript I've ever seen - Jesus, render this garbage on the server. Feeding some oddball marked up nonsense to the browser, yielding a circa-1997 page, seems a little...unnecessary.

    1. Re:Format of the linked article by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      I'm curious what the problem is. It seems to render well on my machines so are you critiquing the the Wiki format as being inappropos. It's just a client side wiki called tiddlyWiki. Anyhow i'd genuinely like to know what you see as the problem since you seem to be the exception, not the rule.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:Format of the linked article by ergo98 · · Score: 1
      Anyhow i'd genuinely like to know what you see as the problem since you seem to be the exception, not the rule.

      I browse unknown sites with scripting disabled (e.g. via NoScript) - not only to avoid 0-day vulnerabilities, but quite simply because I want to know if the site has any merit before enabling what is often a Weapon Mass Annoyance. Normally most websites are 95% usable with zero scripting, including some quite a few Web 2.0 sites. They degrade gracefully. This particular travesty is hilarious when scripting is disabled. Not just a bit, but totally.

      This abuse of internet standards, utilizes an enormous array of client-side JavaScript (included inline - not even included as a nicely linked import) to do what should be done on the server. Now if it was an all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world type website, heralding the beginning of Web 3.0, then maybe I'd sit back and admire it. Yet instead after all of that...it ends up being a fairly crapular website, or the sort that would normally exist as a couple of static HTML pages.
    3. Re:Format of the linked article by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      Geesh, sorry about that abuse of commenting I just posted -- That's what I get for getting interrupted several times, and then posting without a preview. Doh!

    4. Re:Format of the linked article by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      Interesting that you react so viscerally to it. Anyhow I think the point of the tiddly wiki was 1) it's a wiki, even if the current presentation is linear, others can add comment and side articles. 2) it's a client side wiki you can download and edit yourself and redistribute. Yes, you get the whole wiki engine--no server needed. 3) there's no server side CGI. thus for poor organizations like verified voting new mexico which can't maintaintheir own server or sys admins, the tiddly wiki lets them have a wiki that runs on the client. 4) development of nice looking yet flexible pages is fast an easy in tiddly wiki. So yeah for a industrial web site maybe an CGI wiki is nice. But if you want people to steal your content and redistribute it and you want rapid deveolpment with wiki flexibility to add non-minear content then it's heard to beat web 2.0 tricks.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    5. Re:Format of the linked article by ergo98 · · Score: 1
      Interesting that you react so viscerally to it.

      It's just a personal opinion, and it's the sort of experience that anyone proactively browsing with scripting disabled with experience. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

      Anyhow I think the point of the tiddly wiki was
      ...
      I realize what the goal is, but I think the execution is terrible. And in any case you can't have a "wiki" without having somewhere centralized to contribute changes, hence a server. Or in this case you're basically sharing an HTML file -> So why not just edit an actual HTML file, minus all of the convoluted nonsense?
    6. Re:Format of the linked article by demigod · · Score: 1
      Anyhow i'd genuinely like to know what you see as the problem since you seem to be the exception, not the rule.


      Let me be another exception.

      After I allowed JavaScript from mac.com, there are still problems.

      I wanted to print a copy so that I could drop it off at the polls for the workers there next time I go to vote. I'm sure there are all clueless about the issue. However, it one clicks all the bits in the side bar in reverse order to get a sequential ordered page and then trys to print it, you get only the intro.

      I guess if you want, you could blame that on the way firefox's "print" function works.

      I don't really see much benefit to the JavaScript laden layout over a flat sequential presentation anyway.

      --
      "The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
      Major Major
    7. Re:Format of the linked article by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      It's a wiki for creation collborators with access not for the public. editing actual html imposes a structure on the document that has to be follwoed whereas a wiki adapts. And the wiki is easily maintain and portable since it self contained, not a collection of linked html files with specific directory structure.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    8. Re:Format of the linked article by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      good point. thanks.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    9. Re:Format of the linked article by Vampos+DeCampos · · Score: 1

      They're using TiddlyWiki, a sort of personal wiki in a single html file. That may or may not be a good choice for the article, but it wasn't specifically designed for it.

  30. Wake me when the revolution starts. by boyfaceddog · · Score: 1, Troll

    So my vote goes to the guy back by Giganto Corp instead the guy backed by ReallyHuge Co. Big deal.

    --
    Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
  31. the problem with diebold.... by master0ne · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The problem with diebold voting machines is that they rely on the security of a horribly formatted article (secured by the horrible formatting) to ensure noone will read how to access their smart cards....

    --
    Noone writes jokes in base 13!
  32. Try again. by therpham · · Score: 2, Funny

    The seals! They do nothing!

  33. Excuse me... by thewils · · Score: 1

    You can open the lid on one of these things?

    Doesn't that mean they can be owned without having to muck around with the card? Admittedly more difficult to pull off, but feasible nonetheless.

    What's the point of the security tag if you can open up the box?

    --
    Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
    1. Re:Excuse me... by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      Yes well good point. But to answer you specifically, there's a known undetectable hack for the software on the memory card. it was demonstrated by Harri Hurtsi. So if you can access the memory card then it's aready known how to hack the software.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:Excuse me... by thewils · · Score: 1

      Point taken, thanks. But if you can open the box, you can replace the innards with any voting system you like.

      --
      Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
  34. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by thePig · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Not always.
    In India, the introduction of EVMs reduced the election expences by a magnitude of 10.
    Also, since there is a huge potential number of votes (upto 500 Million), it can reduce the time taken for the counting by a huge amount.
    Another point to be taken to consideration is that there was a lot of invalid votes (when people unknowingly pressed the marker between two candidates in the ballot) esp in places where illetracy is abound. In some places, the invalid votes was more than the difference of votes beween the winning and second candidates. The EVMs meant that invalid votes are no longer an issue.
    Also, there was an issue wherein a group of people will barge in a polling booth, and stuff some hundreds or thousands of ballots to the ballot box and run out. This invariably caused either
    (a) wrong counts or
    (b) re-voting in that booth.
    Now this is no longer an issue since there is a time limit between votes and if too many votes come in, it goes in to lock mode(i dont know whether the second option is used now, but the first one is still there - time limit is around 20 seconds or so).

    So I guess, it is needed, in many enviornments.

    --
    rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
  35. Nah. by sammy+baby · · Score: 2, Funny

    I've seen plenty of mistakes trocier than that.

  36. Why wait? by Crash+Culligan · · Score: 1
    If Democrats win in the fall elections, and these machines are still being used, will there still be an uproar?

    Oh, absolutely! The Republicans would never shut up about it.

    Of course, that even assumes that we'll have an election in 2008.

    Or even better, it assumes that the apparent tamper-permissiveness of these machines won't become an excuse not to have elections in 2008.

    --
    You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
  37. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It is not needed.

    Indeed.

    Us Canadians use plain old paper ballots, and are able to count them all within a few hours, even after a federal election. The votes are the paper trail.

    I'm reminded of the election in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

    ...laura

  38. It's like television. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's kind of like television. You are not the networks' customer. The ad companies are the customer; you are the product that is sold to them. Everything else is just flim-flam designed to keep you in front of the tube.

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
    1. Re:It's like television. by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      It's kind of like television. You are not the networks' customer.

      That's a flawed analogy. You can be as cynical as you want, but representatives in this country are still elected. On some level, if an elected official pursues a course of action that inflames his constituency to a sufficient degree, he will lose power, and possibly his chance of being re-elected. Power is what the politician craves most, even more so than money.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    2. Re:It's like television. by joseph@ctc.com · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But if the election is rigged, then the fear of being turned out of office disappears, no? (That's me being as cynical as I want.)

    3. Re:It's like television. by linguizic · · Score: 1

      I'm glad to see someone's read their Chomsky!

      --
      Does this sig remind you of Agatha Christie?
    4. Re:It's like television. by doom · · Score: 1
      PCM2 (4486) wrote:
      Grendel Drago (41496) wrote:
      It's kind of like television. You are not the networks' customer. The ad companies are the customer; you are the product that is sold to them. Everything else is just flim-flam designed to keep you in front of the tube.
      That's a flawed analogy.
      Well that would be a shock.

      You can be as cynical as you want, but representatives in this country are still elected.
      Are they? That's the question. Pay attention to subject under discussion, huh?
    5. Re:It's like television. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's actually much more true for newspapers than it is for television.

      But somehow I never hear it formulated in that way.

    6. Re:It's like television. by Sunburnt · · Score: 1

      "On some level, if an elected official pursues a course of action that inflames his constituency to a sufficient degree, he will lose power, and possibly his chance of being re-elected."

      Whereupon he is replaced by another elected official who, judging from historic experience, will continue the system whereby tax dollars are treated conceptually as though they were corporate revenue rather than collective resources. And, even if we threw all of the bums out of office in the next elections, the system is unlikely to change without a populace who doesn't reflexively view the government as "them" instead of "us."

      Any suggestions on how we get there? I'm not being sarcastic, it's something my thoughts often turn towards.

      --
      Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
  39. Linking to voter-verifiable sources by Dachannien · · Score: 1

    Cuyahoga County and the rest of Ohio were not using Diebold electronic voting machines in 2004's election. Why did the OP choose to mention Ohio's 2004 election in connection with Diebold then?

  40. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Actually, it is needed. The entire Florida deal showed that (as has all the frauds that have been committed over the eons i.e. Chicago). We do need to make voting more fraud-proof and easier. Votes do count.

    the real problem here, is that this appears to be being rushed like there is no tomorrow (makes me wonder how the different the election will be from the exit polls). Even more so, the lack of paper back-up makes me wonder what is going on. And finally, the fact that the closed BB companies are the ones pushing the lack of paper really makes me nervous. After all, this is where they would make a killing each and every election. In fact, Diebold pushes paper for every ATM transaction. Why not for every vote? That is irrational on their part (and the other closed source voting machines that all push this).

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  41. I'm surprised it took them four minutes by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    A decent hacker should be able to do it in under 30 seconds.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  42. Yet by paranode · · Score: 1

    We trust these same individuals to count our paper votes by hand or fed into a machine? Why?

    1. Re:Yet by Karthikkito · · Score: 1

      Because (in an ideal world), an impartial group of people are reading the ballots. If the paper-vote scanner is rigged, the FEC can use a different machine. With an e-vote, the ballot itself has been tampered with. Any number of recounts will give identical results.

    2. Re:Yet by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      Because in a hand count of paper ballots, there will be a representative of each candidate present to monitor the count.

    3. Re:Yet by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      Would you trust them to take home the ballot
      boxes before the vote? After? If so, why?

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
  43. Another annoying freedom by LoTechDave · · Score: 1

    Just like the freedom of speech (which brings with it the tolerance of things you hate) the freedom to vote brings the acceptance of an imperfect system. Every useful tool can be used destructively. Don't blame the box, chads, or whatever - by the time you can guarantee a totally fair election there will be no need to vote. How we vote is a simply a reflection of our society. So, you can hack a voting machine...

  44. Broken Seal by Nun,+Mouse,+Cowherd · · Score: 1, Insightful

    What if I break a tamper evident seal on a machine when I cast my ballot? Are all the ballots on that machine discarded? Are all the voters who used that machine called up and asked to vote again? Wha?

  45. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OK, so here's the theory.

    Electronic voting machines can be designed to be easier to use and more accessible to people with disabilities than traditional voting machines. Blind people can connect a pair of headphones and have their choices read to them. People who don't speak English well can choose a different language such as Spanish or Korean or whatever. Touchscreens may be easier to operate for people with physical disabilities. The order of the candidates can be randomized for each voter, so alphabetical sorting doesn't affect the results (I believe Oregon chooses a random sorting order for the entire election, while California prints several different versions of the ballot with the candidates sorted differently in each version).

    Using a computerized system to obtain each person's vote is NOT a bad thing, and can be very beneficial.

    Also, using a computerized system to count the votes is also not a bad thing, since it can yield results much faster than manual counting. Indeed, I'm sure votes on paper balllots are machine-counted almost everywhere already.

    The problem is this: we cannot and should not rely on a computerized system exclusively. We must have a way to verify what people really voted for. The solution is quite simple, though. We could have computerized voting machines with an instant count, with a paper trail. It works like this:

    You have two machines. The first has a touch screen with a user-friendly interface. It presents your options in whatever language you prefer, and receives your votes. It prohibits you from entering invalid selections, such as selecting two candidates instead of one. Your votes are presented to you on the screen for review, with an option to go back and correct any mistakes. Finally if you are finished, the machine prints your votes on a paper ballot, in a format that is both human-readable and machine-readable. You take this paper ballot, and review it for accuracy. The machine you just used erases any record of your vote in preparation for the next voter. Your vote is not counted at this point.

    You then take this paper ballot, and feed it into a second machine, which counts your vote and securely stores your ballot. These ballots can be counted by hand later, and compared to the computerized count. If the counting machine isn't counting votes accurately, the problem can be easily detected, and the ballots counted by hand.

    If the first machine isn't printing the ballots correctly, the problem can be detected by the voter, who reviews the paper ballots before submitting them to the counting machine. If the voter sees an error, he/she can report the mistake to an election official, who can shred the ballot and let the voter vote again.

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  46. All right, here it is, again, it's called by Bassman59 · · Score: 1
  47. Kind of goofy article by brunes69 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So... if you have physical access to the machine, you can take it apart and alter it to hack into it(yes, that is what they did. RTFA).

    How is this news? The same can be said of any computer system.

    You have to at least operate under the assumption that these machines are audited before and after the electoral process, just like the ballot boxes were... if not, then *there* is the flaw in the system. The flaw isn't "hey, I can open this computer and alter it to change how it functions", it is "I can open this computer without anyone else knowing".

    1. Re:Kind of goofy article by goombah99 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The issue here is that previously a software hack on the memory card was shown last year. The hrutsi attack was successful done on a live voting machine that altered the votes and no election official test could show it was rigged. Diebold called the attack purely hypothetical and said it could neve be done in reality since access to the memory card is impossible due to seals and oversight. Well high speed, non-techincal attack, espeically in light of the sleep-over system sort of makes a mockery of that. That is why it is news.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:Kind of goofy article by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      It's news because here in San Diego, the machines were
      sent home (sleepovers, I think they called them )
      with people just before the voting was to take place.
      People involved with the voting process, but still
      unmonitored.

      As far as I know, there was no "auditing" of the machines
      either before nor after. ( nothing I have read about it
      leads me to suspect that this they were audited, that
      would be part of the response from the voting officials,
      I would hope, in defending their actions ).

      So, this seems like a big deal to me.

      And Brian Bilbray ( google him for news of the above )
      was sworn in to district 50 ( "Duke" Cunningham's old seat )
      *before* the results were official. IIRC, before all the
      votes where counted. So the law suit about the above
      was rejected, as this issue was out of that court's
      jurisdiction.

      It *might* be that all is on the up and up, but I have
      yet to read anything that makes it look anything less
      than a big fat mess. What I dont understand is why this
      is not huge news.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
  48. Many eyes. by DancesWithBlowTorch · · Score: 1
    We trust these same individuals to count our paper votes by hand or fed into a machine? Why?

    Because the counting is being done "in public", in the sense that there are several people around during the count, several people with different backgrounds, with differing party affiliations, all under oath (at least in my country, I have no idea whether it's different in the US).

    If, on the other hand, we let a single voting official take these machines with them, to their homes, over night, without any surveillance whatsoever, there goes your last bit of accountability.
  49. Is this any more difficult than the lotto? by out+of+touch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I really wonder why the states can put together lottery systems that is secure, fast, flexiable, and can not make a voting system? The lottery system has terminal all over place. It uses secure paper to print your selections on, and instance feedback that your entry has be received.

    1. Re:Is this any more difficult than the lotto? by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really wonder why the states can put together lottery systems that is secure, fast, flexiable, and can not make a voting system? The lottery system has terminal all over place. It uses secure paper to print your selections on, and instance feedback that your entry has be received.

      I believe the whole thing is disinformation to keep the random public guessing and/or to make the elections rigable.

      Of course this is an easy task. You point out lottery. I point out banks. Banks have used Diebold for years with AFAIK no known compromise and billions of dollars moved all over the place. And money deals with floating point precision!

      Now if a simple machine cant count between one of two possible choices? Something is amiss.

  50. Fear the DMCA. by Peter+Trepan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not a lawyer, but I think these instructions should immediately be posted to sites hosted outside the U.S., so that Diebold can't get an injunction to shut the site down under the DMCA, and so they'll have less reason to take legal action against the poster, since doing so won't erase the evidence.

    --

    Step into a huge movement. Don't Tread In Me.

  51. Here is my solution by deadline · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the SSN, home address, home phone, etc. of all the legislators who voted for the machines were placed on the memory card (and the officers of the companies that made them), then you can be damn sure the machines would be tamper proof and there would be a well documented chain of custody of each machine as well.

    Better, yet put all their pension money in an Swiss bank escrow account and place the number in the memory card. Then things get serious.

    Good security is possible. My guess is that the Diebold machines, rather than being some diabolical plot, are just a sloppy product designed for the government feeding trough. The whole e-voting thing is a windfall for these companies. It is mandated business.

    --
    HPC for Primates. Read Cluster Monkey
    1. Re:Here is my solution by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      May I steal that idea? Seriously, I give talks on this form time to time and that's a beautiful visual example.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:Here is my solution by deadline · · Score: 1

      Sure. I was being kind of silly, but my point was that if the value of "what's inside" often dictates the measures taken to protect it.

      I think votes are valuable, but it seems companies like Diebold do not really put any value on what is inside. Money access machines have things of value in them, and they do a remarkable job of keeping track of *every transaction* both electronically and with a paper trail. If these voting machines were MAC machines, they would never see the light of day.

      --
      HPC for Primates. Read Cluster Monkey
    3. Re:Here is my solution by gettingbraver · · Score: 1

      That's a great idea! All of that info (home address and all) is public record! Also include their campaign contributions--all info on that site is taken from FEC filings, which are also pubic record!

  52. Better ballot generation by kherr · · Score: 1

    Actually, it is needed. The entire Florida deal showed that (as has all the frauds that have been committed over the eons i.e. Chicago). We do need to make voting more fraud-proof and easier. Votes do count.

    No, we don't need electronic voting. At best we need better ballot-making machines.

    Florida showed us we need to generate paper ballots better, which is what voting technology has been all about until electronic voting came along. Punch ballots are ancient technology, one of the first machine-readable forms of balloting. It's an outdated method that has been eclipsed by machine-readable marked ballots such as optical scanning. Even with that, the failures in Florida came primarily from not maintaining the machines properly such as dull punches and catch basins full of chads making it harder to punch through.

    If we want to use touch screens for a more user-friendly voting experience, fine. Design a better user input system and then have it print out a ballot that is scanned separately and can be hand-checked on recounts. Receipts are a meaningless placebo for voodoo tabulation by the Master Control Program which then announces the winner of an election and this is not verifiable or trustworthy voting. I don't need to see it fail to have no faith in it, just as I don't need to see an electrical fire started by exposed wires to know it's a possibility.

    As for voter fraud, I challenge anyone to cite concrete examples of problems. There has been and is election fraud, where those in power rig the results. That's what happened in Chicago in the 1960s and Ohio in 2004 and Mexico this year. Voter fraud is the straw man being used to institute election fraud.

    1. Re:Better ballot generation by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      Can anyone explain to me what the advantage of punch card machines are above simple pencil and paper voting? I've never seen any country outside of the US that uses such a cumbersome system. Counts don't really go quicker with the same accuracy as instead of having people look at a piece of paper to see where a pencil mark is, you have university professors making distinctions between hanging chads and pregnant chads to decide upon the 'intention' of the voter. What bullshit. Why have punch card machines been invented for voting? What problem did they attempt to solve, and how well do they solve it?

  53. Wired had the Greatest Vision for Voting Results.. by JoshDM · · Score: 1
  54. To Trust or Not To Trust by misterhypno · · Score: 4, Informative

    That is the question. And, considering the declining number of people voting every election, the rising number of complaints about the elctronic systems being used to tally the votes, the complaints about the butterfly ballots, the delays in counting the votes, the political maniuplations OF the votes when a dispute happens, the public seems to be getting ready to say, "To hell with the whole system!"

    And that's bad.

    Very few people trust the election system as it now stands on a national basis. There is NO national standard, NO overwatch that is politically independent and NO way to VERIFY the states that are using the electronic-only voting methods.

    The gaps are obvious: we need a national standard for the voting process; one that allows verification of EVERY vote on a papertrail basis; we need an independent overwatch OF the voting process; and we need an electronic voting system that is far more secure than the one that is currently being used.

    And the probability of that happening amounts to one Big FAT CHANCE.

    The excuses? It costs too much, it will take too much time to put into place, it violates State's Rights, there is no way to keep the politics out of the system and no system is completely secure.

    How much are we willing to spend to defend our shores from attack? Is .01% of that too much to ask to put into place a secure election system? How about siphoning off some of that pay hike the Congress just voted itself for this instead?

    With regards to State's Rights, this is for a national election. Sorry kiddies, doesn't apply as far as standards of the systems themselves go. You still have control of WHO votes and that's where the REAL power resides, so STFU. Keeping the politics out of the system? Well, there's no easy fix for that, but making the election review board similar to the Supremes, but with a requirement of 4 and 4 from each party and only 1 being appointed by the LAST sitting Prez might work... subject to Congressional approval and all that, of course. And secure? Well, nothing is ever totally secure, but we should be able to do better than a four-minute, no-break-the-seal-non-techie-hack!

    Lee Darrow,
    Chicago, IL

  55. Wrong Comparison by JetScootr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's wrong to compare the security of a computer voting machine to other computers. It's better to compare the voting machine's security to the paper ballots they replace.
    If any granny can hack the box while supposedly voting, using $12 worth of tools bought at a grocery store, then it's not as secure as paper.
    Yes, any computer that you have physical access to you can hack, but can you hack a payphone to cough up its coins in 4 minutes??
    Security of a voting machine must be at least as solid as security of a vending machine. Modern vending machines prove it can be done; fitting the same security into and onto a voting machine is just a matter of engineering.

    --
    Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
    1. Re:Wrong Comparison by drew · · Score: 1
      OT, regarding your .sig:
      If that bottled water you're drinking is so pure, why does it have an expiration date?


      Because over time the water will leech the PCB's out of the plastic bottle, which is almost certainly more unhealthy than just about anything you will find in the tap water anywhere in this country...
      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    2. Re:Wrong Comparison by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      Yes, any computer that you have physical access to you can hack, but can you hack a payphone to cough up its coins in 4 minutes??

      Sure I can. I take out a crowbar, pry the coin box out, get coins, replace damaged coin box with a new one.

      What's that you say, I am operating outside the norm of someone seeing what i am doing? So is the example of this so called 'hack". No one could perform this "hack" in a real situation because you can't just casually walk into a voting area and start disassembling the terminal.

  56. Nuts by MarkusQ · · Score: 1
    If you can check who someone voted for, you can intimidate and threaten individuals regarding their vote. Imagine large chaps stood outside the voting station encouraging you to vote a particular way having the luxury of knowing exactly how you voted when you're on your way back out.

    Nuts. You're saying rather than forcing people who want to steal elections into doing things that are blatantly obvious, clearly illegal, and easily recognized as improper by the casual voter, we should let them steal the elections quietly without bothering anyone? If they have enough goos to threaten the entire electorate (including the police, judges, etc.) than they've already won and the vote isn't going to matter anyway. All secret ballots are doing here is making it easier to steal elections and harder to catch the people who do it.

    --MarkusQ

    1. Re:Nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      All secret ballots are doing here is making it easier to steal elections and harder to catch the people who do it.
      What a silly argument. You confuse closed voting with closed voting machines.

      If the voting machines were open but anonymizing each vote, everything would be fine and dandy. So the proper way is to fix the voting machines, not to open the voting process.

      Geez, the stupidity. Sometimes one thinks you deserve the government you have.
    2. Re:Nuts by 1984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, I'm saying that the suggested device for combating insitutional corruption -- public voting records -- has huge problems of its own. Those problems outweight the benefits, especially where there are other oversight mechanisms that may be equally effective in addressing the problem of vote-rigging on a large scale. There are reasons for having secret ballots that shouldn't be whimsically dismissed just because public ballots might seem useful in one particular context.

      And for the record as a dyed-in-the-wool geek, I just find the idea of electronic voting questionable for the same reasons: it solves one problem while ignoring the larger problems it creates. Large Western countries have adequate resource to fund counting votes. And everyone who can understand the concept of voting can grasp the notion of marking a piece of paper to indicate preference, followed by the tallying of those pieces of paper. The same can't be said for non-volatile storage, networks, SQL, SSL, hashing functions, revocability and authentication etc. etc.

    3. Re:Nuts by MarkusQ · · Score: 1
      If the voting machines were open but anonymizing each vote, everything would be fine and dandy. So the proper way is to fix the voting machines, not to open the voting process.

      Not so. Unless I can verify that my vote was counted towards the person it was supposed to have counted towards, and you can do likewise, there is the potential for fraud. Even having the source to the voting machine code won't help us, as there are ways around that.

      Geez, the stupidity. Sometimes one thinks you deserve the government you have.

      You may want to refrain from saying things like that unless you are absolutely sure the point you're making wasn't disproved twenty years ago.

      --MarkusQ

    4. Re:Nuts by BobTheLawyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Strongly agree. Paper voting is easily understood, and the voting, security arrangements and counting can be observed in plain sight by representatives of the candidates. Fraud is very difficult indeed. I'm not sure how, even in principle, you could obtain equivalent security and transparency with an electronic system.

      As far as practicality goes, with sufficient manpower, counting tens of thousands of ballots in a voting district can be accomplished surprisingly speedily, and to a very high degree of accuracy. Most countries do this without a problem. It perhaps gets more difficult if you have Californian-style ballots which include dozens of separate items (e.g. citizens' referenda). Not sure how practicable it is to count all this by hand, but perhaps the Presidential ballot could be treated differently?

    5. Re:Nuts by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not so.

      Is so so! You just have to redefine what people think when they think electronic voting. Instead of a monolithic device that displays the ballot, accepts the input, records the vote, and tallies the votes, by establishing a standard for the paper ballot, you enable companies to compete to sell a device that displays the ballot and accepts the input, that then prints out the standardized ballot. Then companies can compete to sell a device that sorts a stack of ballots based on their vote in a particular race. Finally companies can compete to sell the device that counts all the ballots in a stack.

      If the first company is corrupt, the user will hopefully observe that they voted for the company's CEO for every position and the machine will get tossed out. If the second company is corrupt, the overseers just need to thumb through the stacks of sorted ballots like a flipbook and watch the line for that particular race to make sure they're all the same. As for the ballot counting machine, that company can be as corrupt as it wants to be, since unless it has some kind of +100000 button, it has no idea whose ballot it's currently counting, and the worst it can do is be inaccurate. And if mechanical bill counters are good enough for banks, they're good enough for my vote.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    6. Re:Nuts by BalanceOfJudgement · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It perhaps gets more difficult if you have Californian-style ballots which include dozens of separate items (e.g. citizens' referenda). Not sure how practicable it is to count all this by hand, but perhaps the Presidential ballot could be treated differently?
      When I volunteered on the voting staff there a few years ago, it wasn't a problem. The votes were all counted within 2 hours of being submitted to the sorting center - and these were punch card ballots that had to be hand verified and hand fed into counting machines.

      So yeah, you're right - electronic voting really isn't buying us anything, and in fact is probably selling out quite a bit more than we bargained for.

      Sigh.. this is how democracies end. When confidence in the voting process dies, that is the beginning of the end of a nation's freedom.
      --

      We are the fire that lights our world.. and we are the fire that consumes it.
    7. Re:Nuts by Wescotte · · Score: 1

      || All secret ballots are doing here is making it easier to steal elections and harder to catch the people who do it.

      | What a silly argument. You confuse closed voting with closed voting machines.

      | If the voting machines were open but anonymizing each vote, everything would be fine and dandy. So the proper way is to fix the voting machines, not to open the voting process.

      | Geez, the stupidity. Sometimes one thinks you deserve the government you have.

      You can't have an anonymous vote and be protected at all times. Somebody will find a way to abuse it. The only way you can be ensured accuracy is by validating your data.

    8. Re:Nuts by sweetnjguy29 · · Score: 1

      A secret ballot is more necessary than the possibility of vote tampering.

      From http://www.aclu.org/votingrights/gen/13070res20040 921.html :
      Q. Why a secret ballot?
      A. Voting is a fundamental right, and the right to cast a secret ballot is part of that right (a right recognized and guaranteed by state law). A secret ballot protects against two things: undue influence and manipulation in casting a vote, and retaliation because of how one voted. No one should ever be asked to waive the fundamental right to a secret ballot. The government has no legitimate interest in compromising the secret nature of the ballot.

      I'm reminded of the time in American history during the aftermath of Reconstruction following the Civil War when blacks who were given the right to vote by the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments were made to vote in public under the watchful eyes of their former masters. If the freedmen didn't vote the right way, they were often kicked off the land or they were visited by the Ku Klux Klan.

    9. Re:Nuts by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 1

      Look, most of these issues with security & anonymous voting have _already_ been worked out with paper balloting - often because they had to deal with situations like are being described in the above comments. Naturally with enough effort, there are still ways to abuse the system, but if the policies are followed carefully by most of the people involved, it's entirely feasible to keep the fraud & corruption to a reasonably low level.

      You don't need to reinvent everything just because you're using an electronic voting machine - you just need to make sure that you follow all of the guidelines that have already been worked out over the past couple of centuries of fighting electoral fraud. The fact that all these election supervisors & voting-machine manufacturers are completely ignoring all of this history is at the very best screaming of sheer incompetence, and at the very worst is a prime example of corruption.

      As far as implementing anonymous voting is concerned, you only that need to authenticate that someone is a valid voter, and that they haven't already voted. That's the reason why they check your ID at the polling locations, and then give you a valid ballot (and mark down that you have received a ballot).

      Once they've given you the ballot though, you do NOT need to associate your id with that ballot. The fact that you have one, and only one, validated ballot per voter is good enough for counting votes without sacrificing anonymity (unless you've got only one voter of course).

      Chicago was famous for electoral fraud & taking advantange of non-anonymous voting, where the mob bosses would make sure that everyone in their district voted the "right way" (or you got your kneecaps broken as an example to the other "voters"). I think labor unions often did similar things to their members to who didn't vote the "right way". A slightly more friendly way was to pay off apathetic voters to vote your way - much more cost effective (in many cases) than a major advertising blitz, but really corrupting to proper democratic decision-making.

    10. Re:Nuts by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Non-anonymous voting has been done. It was very, very badly abused -- not only via employment pressure and the like, but also vote selling (someone won't pay for your vote unless they can validate you delivered it) and other coercive behaviors.

      Anonymous voting can be done securely -- there's been a lot of research on the topic, and I'm not going to recount it all here. Even making dumber machinery (as discussed elsewhere in this thread) would be substantially helpful. Perhaps anonymous voting can't be made *quite* as verifiable as non-anonymous voting -- but the abuses which non-anonymous voting enables are far worse than the incremental benefit over a well-designed system for anonymous voting.

  57. Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 1
    The Open Voting Consortium advocates the use of their Open Voting Solution as an answer to Black Box Voting, and I suspect many Slashdotters might sympathize with this approach. But I would advocate caution. While certainly better than any Diebold offering, the solution they advocate suffers from several problems.

    Visit their mock-up at http://user.it.uu.se/%7ejan/voting-project/ballot2 .html and the result of your balloting as I walk you through the vulnerabilities.


    1. Why the barcode?The voter intent is rendered in two seperate versions: the Native Language version (President ---> George Washington) and the barcode version. This raises the question: which one is authoritative? If a ballot should turn-up which lists the voter intent inconsistently, that ballot becomes invalid, as does the sanity of the machine and every vote cast upon it. Additionally, who knows what other information is contained in that barcode? We could argue that if the barcode says something different than the printed words, it would be exposed when read-back by the scanning-station, unless that machine has been compromised as well.
    2. Why the survelliance? Does anyone else think it a bad idea to have anything reading the ballots before the election closes? We already get enough complaints about exit polls and pundits 'calling' the election before the polls close, so why do we go out of the way to allow machines to see how we're voting before we've even cast the ballot?

    And the strange thing (to me) is that it's all unnecessary:
    • Forget the barcode. Print the voter intent in "plain english" and let the computers key-off of that for counting. Computerized OCR can be as accurate as barcode reading if the printing conditions are controlled and the computer knows what it's looking for. If we agree beforehand on standardized meanings for each possible voter intent across several languages and representations (including braille) then there's no need to 'translate it back'.
    • Forget the 'second box'. There should only be one way to 'cast a vote'; the 'device' accumulating the counts should be openly observable, analog (only idiots expect infallible analog behavior out of digital devices), and singular. If you create a situation where there are two (or more) places where the count is being kept, you create a situation where one of the counts is going to be ignored.

    And, best of all, the solution (pen and paper, boxes and X's) has already been developed. There's no need to raise $1.5 Million to fund the development of this solution, or spend my nights in the run-up to the election going over the source code looking for vulnerabilities when I should be considering real issues.

    --

    The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    1. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      All of your questions have been debated at length by many voting system experts. Many in fact had simmilar questions or complaints when they first examined the system. But those who stick around long enough to listen and lear, find out why those features exists. It really is very well though out.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 1
      All of your questions have been debated at length by many voting system experts. Many in fact had simmilar questions or complaints when they first examined the system. But those who stick around long enough to listen and lear, find out why those features exists. It really is very well though out.

      Would you care to offer a response, or a link to the response by others? Some of us well-educated, hyper-intelligent, tech-toting slashdotters are willing to listen and learn.

      Then again, some of us are not. Some people really do demand to see the empty ballot box before voting starts, and dedicate a whole day watching to be sure each person puts only one piece of paper in the box. And then they stick around to see the paper come out of the box and get sorted into piles. You might be able to convince me that the source code doesn't contain any exploits or back doors, but you won't be able to convince them. And more likely than not, the more I learn about the system, the more likely I am to think that I know how to exploit it (whether it's actually exploitable or not) and as long as I think it's exploitable, I won't trust it.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    3. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      Actually the whole point of the OVC system, including the bar code is that it allows transparent operation my mininally trained people and general understanding by the public. There's multiple checks and balances.

      For example, the bar code to human text is validated in four ways. first it's validated in the creation process. Second, any voter can swipe the bar code on an independent stand-alone machine for playback before casting the vote. Third, Since the voter does not have to cast the ballot they can leave the poll with the completed but not cast ballot. Any third party outside the poll can swipe the barcode and vaidate it for the voter. Fourth, at the end of the day the every single bar code is swiped by a human. The humans can also see the plain text of the ballot they are swiping. Thus they can validate as many ballots as they choose to.

      Thus this is very transparent to voters and poll workers and allows third party validation. it avoids the complexity of OCR which is not only error prone but too slow for bulk ballot reading. And it allows the possibility of embedding security features if one desires.

      The OVC system does not rely on software openeness for secure operation. The voter still has a paper ballot they can verify. The votes are recored twice. Once by the ballot creation machine, which does not record the totals just the existence of the ballot and it's contents. (it might not get cast). The paper ballot is then in the hands of the voter before being cast. The cast ballots are counted on a separate machine. Every cast ballot must match a created ballot so ballot box stuffing is very difficult.

      Then of course there's the fact the source code is open. That is a lot of reassurance to the candidates and to the voters. But it's main value is to the government not to the voter. The open source allows the governement to have third party maintainers and avoid lock-in, or slow service. It also allows multiple organizations to build and maintain compatible equipment by using the OVC software standard.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    4. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      The barcode's there for faster scanning. Machines can read barcode about as fast as you can physically feed the paper through them. Reading printed letters is slower and more prone to recognition errors.

      In my view the human-readable form should be authoritative. That's the one the voter could read, so in any conflict between it and the barcode you can assume if the human-readable version had been wrong the voter wouldn't have put the ballot in the ballot box. You count using the barcode, but you verify a certain percentage of ballots to make sure the barcode counts match the human-readable name counts. If there's a discrepancy, you recount all the ballots using the human-readable names and human counters. Even if the voting machines themselves and the counting machines are both compromised, this check catches it. Note that you can check barcodes easily by having a template of the barcode for each name with the bars printed right at the edge of the paper. Put the template up against the barcode to be checked and see if all the bars line up. Humans are good at spotting when they don't.

      As for what's in the barcode, just publish the encoding. Then anybody (with the inclination) can decode the barcode and see that it says what it's claimed to say and nothing more.

      As a final check, I'd allow observers from any interested group to each select one or two machines at random from those actually set up at polling places at the start of election day. Those machines are taken down and brought back to a central location. Those observers then get to pick one or two machines (not the one(s) they selected) and, while being watched by the other observers, cast a ballot with everyone agreeing to the actual votes cast. Then the results of this mock election are counted and the counts compared against the agreed-upon actual results. Any discrepancy triggers an automatic recount of the election based on the human-readable printing on the ballots, since the machines have just proven themselves unreliable.

    5. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 1
      The Open Voting Consortium solution is a bit skimpy on details, so I'll have to go by published statements, with deference to your understanding of the system, of course.

      I'll also be referencing the sample ballot at http://user.it.uu.se/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/jan/ballot.py in this response.

      For example,the bar code to human text is validated in four ways.

      This makes the assumption that the human text and barcode match. What would be the response when presented with a ballot where the barcode and text did not match? Simply presuming that it wll never happen is short-sighted. If such a system is truly open source, it would be trivial to produce something which looks like a real ballot but contains such an arbitrary flaw. We could, as a counter, require an out-of-context check (special paper, special ink, etc) at increased complexity and cost....

      Second, any voter can swipe the bar code on an independent stand-alone machine for playback before casting the vote.

      We can presume most people would not carry a barcode reader to the voting booth with them, which would represent an opportunity for exploitation, but let's presume they did. Reading-back the barcode presumably only gives me the number. 5124512451245124512451245124512451245124 But the vote I cast was not for a number, it was for a person. How am I (Joe Average Voter) supposed to make the translation between the selection of candidates I voted for and the encoded representation in the number. Unless I can perform such a decoding in my head, I have to trust that the system has not been compromised.

      Now, I could program my own barcode reader to also decode the number back into a ballot, but now we've introduced complexity and with it, opportunity for exploit. How would a truly honest election official handle the situation where a voter presents a ballot which reads (text) for Candidate A, and scans (on the precinct-supplied verifier) for Candidate A but scans (of the voter-provided verifier) for Candidate B? We could presume that the voter-supplied equipment is faulty, but a corrupt election official who had tampered with the precinct-supplied scanner would surely say the same thing, and probably have an accomplice with his own compromised scanner on hand for back-up.

      It's also not clear from the provided documentation if the information within the barcode represents only the information on the ballot, or if other unaccounted-for information is also included. Either possibility could be leveraged into an exploit by itself.

      Third, Since the voter does not have to cast the ballot they can leave the poll with the completed but not cast ballot.

      There's a minor DOS (Denial Of Service) exploit waiting to happen.

      Any third party outside the poll can swipe the barcode and vaidate...

      ...or invalidate...

      ...it for the voter.

      Fourth, at the end of the day the every single bar code is swiped by a human. The humans can also see the plain text of the ballot they are swiping. Thus they can validate as many ballots as they choose to.

      This ignores human nature. Most people given the opportunity to use either the 'stare and compare, stack and add' count or the machine count will choose the machine count. Having the paper ballots as a backup only helps if the paper ballot is considered authoritative. And if you're planning to have the paper ballot be authoratitive, have any other count available only introduces the possibility of controversy, for the price of increased complexity.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    6. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 1
      The barcode's there for faster scanning.

      We're not as interested in speed as we are in accuracy, so while scanning a barcode might be faster than some other method, we don't really care, because any method of tabulation (even hand counting) will be fast enough for the application.

      Reading printed letters is slower and more prone to recognition errors.

      But we're not reading letters, are we? We're not trying to OCR the difference between an e and an ê with 100% accuracy, we only need to tell the difference between President --> George Washington and President --> John Adams.

      ...you verify a certain percentage of ballots to make sure the barcode counts match the human-readable name counts.

      The smaller that certain percentage is, the greater a chance that an error could slip through unnoticed.

      Even if the voting machines themselves and the counting machines are both compromised, this check catches it.

      Only if the spot-checking turns up a discrepency. If we spot-check 1% of the whole, there's a 99% chance that a compromised batch will get through unnoticed. But let's say a spot check does turn-up a discrepency. We know the batch where we caught the discrepency needs to have the machine-count thrown-out as untrustable in favor of the hand count. Now, what additional coults should we conclude we can no longer trust? Any vote counted by that tabulator? Any vote cast in that precinct? And vote using that version of the software? (why would you be using any other version? How many version of this stuff am I going to have to verify each election?) In the real world, a discrepency would either be 'shrugged-off' as a one-time failure, or would have you re-counting, by hand, every vote cast in that election. If you haven't conditioned people to expect a hand re-count, you'll never see one. and if you have, why bother with a machine count in the first place?

      Note that you can check barcodes easily by having a template of the barcode for each name with the bars printed right at the edge of the paper.

      Go re-read the specs. In the simple case, a ballot consists of a collection of races/issues. The barcode would be different for each combination of votes; If we voted for the same mayor but a different dog catcher, our barcodes would differ. The length of the barcode on the sample ballot implies a more complex case where the barcode also contains extra information, such as the sequence number of the ballot, the machine id which produced it, timestamp, voter language preference, etc. In any of these cases you'd expect to never see two identical bar codes.

      As a final check...taken down and brought back to a central location.

      if((time_of_day > "7:00am") && (uptime < "60min") ;& (ballot_count < 1000) {

      rig_vote=false;

      }else{

      rig_vote=true;

      }

      Any discrepancy triggers an automatic recount of the election based on the human-readable printing on the ballots, since the machines have just proven themselves unreliable.

      ...and, after barcodes and printers and scanning and spot checks and pulling multiple machines off-line from each precinct and the farce of a parallel ballot were back to counting human readable votes by hand again.

      You know, honey, you could have just stopped and asked for directions.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    7. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      Reading-back the barcode presumably only gives me the number. 5124512451245124512451245124512451245124 But the vote I cast was not for a number, it was for a person. How am I (Joe Average Voter) supposed to make the translation between the selection of candidates I voted for and the encoded representation in the number.

      Because the stand alone and third party scanners will translate it for you. And because if you can find just one ballot with one mistake then you know the bar codes cannot be trusted and have indisputable proof. Consequently the ballots will be recounted by the text.

      Most of the time it's better to use the bar codes for data entry becuase the error rate will be lower and the speed faster than text scanning either by machine or by hand. As I said previously there are four points where the agreement between the bar code and text get's sampled so the likelihood of an error/fraud is small.

      Even if you don't think it is small enough, then it certainly is still smaller than the competing DRE and optical scan discrepancies, which are less thoughly checked.

      There are not multiple authoritative records in use. Just one, the text. And there is a defined hierarchy of dispute resolution. The existence of records to check against means that no one can rig any one part of the system. ANd since the ballots can even be scanned by thrid parties, or photgraphed, there's lots of checks on the system accuracy.

      I can't find one of your objections that has not been highly considered in the design of the OVC system.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    8. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      we only need to tell the difference between President --> George Washington and President --> John Adams.

      Exactly. What does the software do when it sees Presldont --> Goorge Washlngten because of character-recognition errors in the OCR software? Yes, that sort of thing can happen even with machine-printed text because of smudging and such. Barcode is much easier because of it's form (eg. the fact that the narrowest a wide bar can appear to be is still wider by a considerable margin than the widest a narrow bar can appear, so you can set a fairly large error margin without overlap). That all makes for a more accurate count, since there's fewer opportunities for ambiguity to creep in.

      The smaller that certain percentage is, the greater a chance that an error could slip through unnoticed.

      Yep. It's the same with regular paper ballots. So you pull out the statistics textbook, work out what confidence level you need in the results, then work out what percentage of the ballots you need to check to insure that confidence level. If the spot-checks turn up a discrepancy, you run a wider check. If you keep finding discrepancies, you can go all the way up to hand-counting all ballots based on the human-readable text if you have to. Personally I'd spread it around: check 5% of the ballots at every precinct, not all the ballots at 5% of the precincts. Pick your ballots truly randomly throughout the day and it's extremely unlikely that you'll miss every single discrepancy, and since the machines are supposed to be 100% accurate a difference in totals of even a single vote indicates a problem.

      The big difference is that a manual count of all the ballots takes time and people. Hand-counting only 5% of the ballots takes only 5% of the time and people that hand-counting 100% would. If you don't spot any problems, you get the results faster than a hand-count would. If you do spot problems, you only lose a little time getting the hand-counting underway. And you still get all the advantages of touch-screen and similar voting machines (easy and fast to load a new ballot layout, easy to handle multiple languages, they can handle "displaying" in braille, large fonts, text-to-speech etc. for disabled voters) without the problems of having to blindly completely trust an unauditable system to produce correct results.

      If we voted for the same mayor but a different dog catcher, our barcodes would differ.

      No, they wouldn't. The barcodes are for each individual selection, not for the ballot as a whole. Essentially each selection you make has a unique barcode, and the barcode for that selection should be identical on every ballot where the voter selected it. So if you and I both voted for the same candidate for mayor, we should have exactly the same barcode for that race. If we voted for different dogcatchers we should have different barcodes, but each of our barcodes should be identical to everyone else who voted for the same dogcatcher we each did.

      As for the time-of-day hack, what makes you think the mock election would start within the first hour of the polls opening? Depending on scheduling the machines might not be picked up until lunchtime, and the mock election might not start until 3pm. And if there's a real fear of that kind of software backdoor, you could randomize the selection so not every machine was even selected at the same time during the day (as long as all the selection and mock voting was done by the time the polls closed). With all the other checks it's unlikely any fudging of the results could get through undetected, this check is simply a final "And just in case you think you can evade the random samples, this one checks when we know exactly what every single vote was and where the machines were selected by the people most suspicious of you. Still think you can slip past unnoticed?" safeguard.

    9. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 1

      What does the software do when it sees Presldont --> Goorge Washlngten because of character-recognition errors in the OCR software?

      It does with the OCR exactly what it would do with a scanned barcode; it checks the Huffman distance between Presldont --> Goorge Washlngten and President --> George Washington (26/31) against the other possibility (President --> John Adams at 13/31) compares it against it's internal threshold and decides if the voter intent is clear enough to make a clear call on it's own, or if it needs to punt to a human interpreter. The difference is that the Huffman difference between the Code*39 representation of any two characters is a lot shorter than the full english text representation of any two candidates names. That's by design. Barcodes optimize things we want to have optimized when we're looking to compress information into a small space. That's not the purpose of a ballot. The purpose of a ballot is to capture voter intent, and any sort of encoding takes us away from that.

      That still doesn't give us a solution for the problem of finding ourselves facing a ballot where the barcode and the english text disagree, except for making it harder to find out it happens when it happens.

      ...the narrowest a wide bar can appear to be is still wider by a considerable margin than the widest a narrow bar can appear...

      That's not how barcodes work, at least not with UPC or Code*39 or any other barcode designed to work with standard ink and paper. Instead, the key measurement is the distince between the dark-to-light transitions and vice-versa. That way the code reads the same under varying conditions of humidity, ink viscosity, paper absorpidity, etc.

      It's the same with regular paper ballots.

      No it isn't, which was my point. If you're deriving voter intent from the english text, you have to check the english text on every ballot. Theres no 'spot-check', unless you're calling 100% a "spot-check". It's only when you've introduced a layer of indirection that you have to 'spot-check' to be sure you're deriving voter intent correctly.

      Now, we could say that any system involving machine reading of ballots is substituting "a machine's interpretation of how the voter intended to vote" for "how the voter intended to vote" and therefore we need a spot check to be sure the machine is interpreting the ballots correctly. This is a problem related to machine interpretation of ballots (in whatever form) and does not directly address the problem introduced by barcodes. The problem introduced by the barcodes is that the machine is not looking at the same thing the voter looked at when the voter verified his own voter intent. Instead the machine is looking at something which is supposed to be the same thing voter looked at.

      To disenfranchise a voter under the OVC system, one only needs to find a way to make the barcode differ from the english text, keep the voter from verifying the barcode on an uncompromised decoder, and hope that the batch doesn't get selected for a spot check. A clever vote rigger could cover all those bases easily.

      However, if the voter intent is being derived from the english text, one has to find a way to make the english text read differently than it does. Full control over the box which prints the ballot buys you nothing. There's no decoder, so you can't compromise one. The only point of vulnerability left is the box which interprets the ballots (if you aren't hand counting them) which is a common vulnerability to any system using machine interpreters.

      Pick your ballots truly randomly....

      Cryptographers always see red flags whenever someone uses the word random because the randomness generator is a vulnerability of all but the most carefully designed cryptographic systems. Where does th

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    10. Re:Beware the Open Voting Consortium solution by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      Except that if you're reading the ballots via OCR, you still need to check whether the results of the OCR process match the actual printing. You can't simply take it as given, any more than you can take as given that the barcodes match the printing. And I've seen the results of OCRing high-quality scans of high-quality text, and there's very few words that don't have at least one error in them. When it comes to a device correctly reading what's printed, barcode scanners are at least an order of magnitude more reliable than OCR at this point. Why introduce an error-prone step when you can introduce a less-error-prone one?

      As far as random, the selection doesn't have to be cryptographically random. It just needs to be sufficiently unpredictable that our vote-rigger can't reliably figure out where he needs to avoid placing his discrepancies to avoid having one selected for a check. And he's got a tough job: he has to have every single one of his introduced errors avoid being selected (while still introducing enough errors to actually change the outcome, because if he biases the election by 2% in favor of A but B wins by 3% then the rigging fails), while we only need to catch one introduced error to foil him. Shaking the ballot box up, stacking the ballots and selecting every tenth one would suffice, even if the order's not random our rigger can't predict what the order will be until it's too late.

      As far as speed, speed is desirable simply because people want to know the outcome. I wouldn't sacrifice accuracy for speed, but we have a system where we can get speed without sacrificing the ability to manually count every single ballot if needed.

      NB: the system I consider best retains a physical ballot and ballot box, only using the machines to speed up the tallying process. If OVC has a step that depends entirely on the machines, that step needs eliminated. Of course, there's also another way of dealing with the problem: publish the specification, then insure that both parts of the system (the box that creates the barcode and the box that counts the votes) are created by different, unrelated companies. But I prefer a fairly direct representation of an ordinary ballot where humans can, if needed, check every single portion of the ballot. And yes, you can check barcodes using templates once you've checked that the templates match the specification. Even if the system consistently credits barcodes to the wrong candidate, the counts won't match what the humans get when they credit those barcodes to the right candidate.

  58. Private Voting, Public Counting by mrosgood · · Score: 5, Informative

    There's lots of good posts. I'm glad we geeks are talking about this important issue.

    I spoke briefly with Bev Harris recently. See below.

    I'm at work, so I need to make this brief. Just four points.

    First, the two pillars of our democracy (United States of America) are private voting and public counting. We adopted the Australian Ballot (aka secret ballot) a while back. Things like electronic voting and forced mail voting (e.g. 100% vote by mail) take away the secret ballot. Here in Washington State, our constitution says we need a secret ballot. Disagree if you want. There's lots of ideas. Like voting receipts and no more secret ballots. But please start by changing our laws. Meanwhile, any attempt to take away the secret ballot (private voting) is unconstitutional.

    Second, there is no technical way to have an electronic voting system which both preserves the secret ballot and the public vote count. If the ballots are secret, then there's no verifiability, meaning no public count. If the system is verifiable, then there's no secret ballot. You can have one or the other, but not both. Electronic counting, as with the precinct-based optical scanners, can be done constitutionally.

    Third, currently the most reliable way to vote in the USA is to use a voter-correctable precinct-based optical scanner (PBOS). Sorry, I don't have the cites handy (my bad), but dig a little and you can find the research on this. Brennan Center, GAO reports, MIT Voter Project, etc. The basic idea is that you mark a ballot and feed it into a machine. If there's a problem, the machine spits the ballot back out, giving the voter a chance to correct the problem. Yes, these machines need to be better designed, open source, yadda, yadda. But before anyone proposes a better system, please work to understand the best system currently available. (Thank you for your patience.)

    Many juridictions have wisely moved away from touchscreens and other DREs and adopted PBOS systems with a low-cost, verifiable solution for disabled voting. TrueVoteCT.org just had a huge win. And Voter Action sued and got the touchscreens in New Mexico replaced with PBOS systems. (Please visit both orgs and give them cash. Activism is not cheap!)

    Fourth, and lastly, Bev Harris made an incredibly important point: Our elections have to be understandable for all the voters. Blackbox Voting has spents years digging and researching. I've personally spent 2 years learning all that I can about elections, voting, and these systems. I'm a computer geek and I readily admit that I had to work pretty hard to understand stuff. Bev has a lot of contact with experts, computer scientists, security dudes, etc. Her point is that we cannot rely on those sage gurus to weigh in on our election systems. We all need to understand how our democracy works. Not just the wonks. That means our election and voting systems must be simple and straightforward.

    (PS- I saw Bev during King County Washington's "logic and accuracy testing" of our new Diebold AccuVote TSx touchscreens last Tuesday. You can read "Report: Testing of Diebold AccuVote TSx" on my blog, on WashBlog, or on dailyKos. Please holler if anyone has questions. I'll do my best to reply in a timely fashion.)

    1. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by VP · · Score: 1
      Second, there is no technical way to have an electronic voting system which both preserves the secret ballot and the public vote count. If the ballots are secret, then there's no verifiability, meaning no public count. If the system is verifiable, then there's no secret ballot. You can have one or the other, but not both.


      Can someone expand on that? Why can't an electronic voting machine with a paper trail satisfy the private voting/public counting principle?
    2. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by mrosgood · · Score: 2, Informative
      Why can't an electronic voting machine with a paper trail satisfy the private voting/public counting principle?


      Damned good question.

      The reason is because the VVPAT (voter verified paper audit trail) is a placebo.

      What reason would anyone have to believe that the tally recorded in the memory card (and uploaded to the central tabulator) is the same as what is printed? Two different data paths. Enables two different results.

      Voter Action determined that in New Mexico that Spanish language ballots were printed corrected but not recorded in memory. (Sorry, I couldn't quickly find the specific cite.)

      The report from the recent botched election in Cuyahoga County Ohio had all sorts of problems related to the VVPAT. Sure, hypothetically one could design and build a VVPAT system that wasn't likely to break down, rip the paper, had good ergonomics, etc. But I prefer to talk about the actual systems we're actually using. And these actual systems actually suck.

      The one attempt to audit the VVPAT that I know of resulted in the election officials quickly choosing to use PBOS over electronic voting systems with VVPAT. You can read the testimony Jill LaVine, Sacramento County's Registrar of Voters, gave to the Election Assistance Commission this last April. Brief summary: The manual recount took 1 hour and 15 minutes per ballot cast.

      Lastly, your mileage may vary state to state. Some states treat the VVPAT as the legal ballot of record. Some treat the memory card as the legal record. Some don't use the VVPAT for recounts. Etc. Honestly, I don't keep close track of such things. The proponents of Holt's HR 550, like Verified Voting do a good job on that issue, if you want to know more.

      Again, great question. Keep 'em coming.
    3. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Second, there is no technical way to have an electronic voting system which both preserves the secret ballot and the public vote count. If the ballots are secret, then there's no verifiability, meaning no public count. If the system is verifiable, then there's no secret ballot. You can have one or the other, but not both.

      Yes there is. Everyone has a public key and gets a private key after they vote. The private key is printed out and destroyed. So at a later time if you keep your private key you can make sure your vote was correctly assigned.

      Basically they don't encrypt your vote but your name is encrypted with a shared public key. Maybe each voting location gets its own public key. That way they can count votes with a paper trail without knowing who voted for what. Yet if you wanted to know how they recorded your vote, use your private key, combine it with the public key and generate your name encoded hash. Look down the list for your encoded string and see how your vote was recorded.

    4. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by mrosgood · · Score: 1

      That private key is your receipt. Enabling you to prove how you voted. Opening the door to coercion, vote buying, and other traditional forms of vote fraud. Ergo, no more secret ballot.

      Maybe you're advocating the elimination of the secret ballot. Okay. But that's a separate discussion.

    5. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by YoungHack · · Score: 1
      Second, there is no technical way to have an electronic voting system which both preserves the secret ballot and the public vote count.

      I suppose technically you are correct. That's not the same as saying that there is no technical way to have an electronic voting system which preserves the secret ballot public verifiability. A great example is David Chaum's paper Secret Ballot Receipts and Transparent Integrity .

    6. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by imthesponge · · Score: 1

      What about this? The machine stores each ballot individually in order. instead of just running totals. Each ballot has a UID (random). The machine does two hashes: one of the ballot+UID and one of the running totals. The two hashes are printed on the voter's receipt. The ballots can then be readded independently and the hashes listed publically. A voter can look up their ballot and be sure that it has been counted properly, as long as the machine verifying the counts can be trusted. A receipt with hashes that aren't in the system is then evidence of a problem.

    7. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by o'reor · · Score: 1
      > What reason would anyone have to believe that the tally recorded in the
      > memory card (and uploaded to the central tabulator) is the same as what
      > is printed? Two different data paths. Enables two different results.

      Well, what about the newspapers doing their jobs ? In my country (France), local newspapers publish all the tallies, per poll, then per voting district, then per departement (~county), which enables every citizen to check whether the actual figures match with what they've seen published at their voting place. And check the sums for every district, every departement, and eventually the whole country. And you can be damn sure that the people will buy the newspapers that day to see how the neighborhood voted in their areas.

      That way, when every newspaper reports the figures on the printed trail, we can be sure that they match what is uploaded to the central tabulator. But then in this country, it also works because the polls are paper polls, that they are counted by hand (and checked twice) and the whole process is being watched by a local citizen committee, and it's open to anyone with a valid voter's card (i.e. pretty much anyone unless you have committed a serious offense in the last few years).

      --
      In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
    8. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by Stalyn · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. First off the status quo of a non-verifiable method of counting votes already allows widespread voter fraud. Remember 2000? In the case of buying votes, the absentee ballot allows one to prove to others how one voted.

      At least with this system the voter herself can verify how her vote was assigned. Some checks could be put in place that the only person that can check the list must have a receipt assigned to them and a valid ID. Maybe even biometrics. Also copying the list by those who are not mandated by the government is strictly forbidden.

      Sure there are flaws but the benefits seriously outweigh them especially in the current system where the things you mention already happen.

      Also to claim such a system removes the secret ballot is just playing semantics. The current system is secrecy through obfuscation. A new system would be secrecy through encryption.

      --
      The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
    9. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by mrosgood · · Score: 1
      No it doesn't. First off the status quo of a non-verifiable method of counting votes already allows widespread voter fraud. Remember 2000? In the case of buying votes, the absentee ballot allows one to prove to others how one voted.

      The title of my comment is "private voting, public counting". The verification comes from the public vote count.

      Regarding absentee ballots, I agree that the loss of both the secret ballot and the public vote count opens the door to fraud. Hence my opposition to forced mail voting (my name for "100% vote by mail").

      At least with this system the voter herself can verify how her vote was assigned. Some checks could be put in place that the only person that can check the list must have a receipt assigned to them and a valid ID. Maybe even biometrics. Also copying the list by those who are not mandated by the government is strictly forbidden.

      Sure. Great ideas. You square that with the law and then let's talk. I can't wait to see what you come up with.

      Also to claim such a system removes the secret ballot is just playing semantics. The current system is secrecy through obfuscation. A new system would be secrecy through encryption.

      I cite the constitution, laws, tradition, and legal precedent and that's just "semantics" to you. Interesting.

      The current poll site voting system in King County preserves the secret ballot and has a public vote count. We use paper ballots and voter-correctable precinct-based optical scanners. It's the cheapest, most reliable, least error-prone system currently available.

      The "new" system of electronic voting and forced mail voting, being phased in over the next few years, eliminates the secret ballot and the public vote count. I oppose these "new" systems.

      The "future" systems you're so enthusiastic about are currently just academic papers. I can't wait to see their real-world implementations. You're working on that, right? Please let me know when they're ready for demo.

      Meanwhile, please learn something about our current system before initiating your sweeping changes. That technophilic mentality is exactly how we got in this mess in the first place.
    10. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by mrosgood · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the post. I'm sorry for the delay replying.

      Honestly, the use of secure hash functions for protecting privacy is not intuitively obvious to me. It feels just like trying to those Zen koans (e.g. the sound of one hand clapping). I bought Peter Wayner's book Translucent Databases to learn about this stuff and get some practice. He details a bunch of ideas which are similar to yours.

      When I have chance, I'll work through your idea. I wouldn't be able to prove or disprove it in any way. So don't expect much. But it's notions like yours that need to explored in order to fully understand why things are the way they are.

      Thanks.

    11. Re:Private Voting, Public Counting by Stalyn · · Score: 1

      wow great way to be a condescending asshole, perhaps you are running for office?

      --
      The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
  59. Re:Wouldn't it be easier...NO by JetScootr · · Score: 1

    Breeching the box visibly results in federal investigations, people going to jail, etc.
    Better to swap the cards invisibly with cards already loaded with your favorite party's votes from people found in the obituary section.

    --
    Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
  60. why screw with the hardware ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    pfftt ... every one of them is vulnerable from the main screen ... up up down down left right left right A B select start - whamo ! you're in !

  61. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
    Butterfly ballots.

    Confusion around poorly worded (and technically 'illegal' because they violated state law, even though the democrats 'accepted' them.) paper ballots almost certianly caused voting irregularities in Bush's first election.

    Majority Democrat districts, that polled as being won by the democrats were 'won' by Bush.

    This was one of the original reasons why electronic machines were pushed.

    Of course, there are smart ways to do it and "diebold" ways to do it.

    A lot of Republicans pushed to have machines made by a company that strongly supported the Republicans(by support I mean cash and lots of it.)

    So we get republican voting machines that any smart, untrained person can manipulate instead of machines that actually do what they are supposed to.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  62. It saves money!? by chocolatetrumpet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It saves money!? Great!

    Democracy isn't worth the price of paper ballots anyway.

    --
    Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
    1. Re:It saves money!? by Moofie · · Score: 1

      False dichotomy. You lose the Internets.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    2. Re:It saves money!? by thePig · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the sarcasm.
      Note that the earlier comment wasnt about only the savings.
      Anyways, since the question is about savings, let me try to elaborate (just on the savings aspect of it).

      In this case, I was talking about India, where money *do* matter.
      The election in India puts a huge burden on the exchequer, around 1000 Cr Rupees, which is a huge amount.
      With that savings, the election commision actually had a lot more police posted for previous election, and that election was considered amongst the best run by a huge margin.

      In developing countries, these sort of money does matter.
      It allows for a better run election and a better run economy.

      --
      rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
    3. Re:It saves money!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So your implying that an increase in policeing detered voter fraud. Yah, I'll agree with that.

  63. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by sgt_doom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, the "solution" to everything from this administration has been to "privatize" it...that is, to contract it out for fraudulent overbilling, embezzling, and plain not getting the job done -- but receiving the taxpayer's funds in payment anyway. The clear solution is to quit "privatizing" everything

  64. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

    Voting population of Canada Vs. Voting population of USA. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, we just have 10x the amonut of people.

    Jaysyn

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
  65. DIEBOLD'S VOTE-TALLY SOFTWARE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DIEBOLD'S VOTE-TALLY SOFTWARE
    V.5.0i - 9/17/03

    http://www.equalccw.com/dieboldtestnotes.html

    REQUIREMENTS: Windows-based PC with 150megs free disk space and 128megs RAM (minimum). You also need MS-Access2000 or a later variant in order to severely circumvent the passwords and security - the whole point here is that MS-Access is basically a "hack tool" and once used, there's NO security on this "high security voting product" whatsoever!

  66. Serious.... by zerosix · · Score: 1

    Well, will people relize it's not a problem with the way we vote it's a problem with the voting system in general. First of all, More people watch the superbowl than vote. Second, for example montana has 3 electoral votes. It doesn't matter whether 51% or 99% of the people vote for a particular canidate, if it's the wrong one it's not going to matter anyway because california has 50 some odd votes.

    --
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. ~Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Serious.... by Josh+Hiles · · Score: 1

      How do we solve this problem oh wise one? If you have a way to motivate the American sheeple to vote then I'm all ears. Until then though I think I'll go right on being concerned about whether the goverment or some Chalcedon Institute motivated corporation like Diebold is fixing elections. As to your criticism of the electoral college, well for the most part I'm right there with you, but then again are we absolutely sure that simple snout-counting is a good idea in a country where more people watch a football game than vote for their leaders?

    2. Re:Serious.... by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Actually I think the current electorial system is even worse for groups in large states. A far larger number of people than the population of Montana, such as the set of Republicans in California, is effectively disenfranchised (because all the electorial votes will go Democrat even if only 51% of the state wants the Democrat president).

  67. Ha! by Plutonite · · Score: 1

    In Egypt, they use the word "customer" interchangably with "sucker"/"easy picking", probably due to how shop owners view clueless customers.

    Just remember, customer = sucker.

    1. Re:Ha! by WiFiBro · · Score: 1

      And you think you are better of as a 'client'?
      http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/ secondary/SMIGRA*/Cliens.html
      (in short: the word seems to go back to the latin verb cluere, to "hear" or "obey" . It is connected with slaves and owned people.)

  68. all the old fogies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    like me, who have been trying to clean up the vote since before you were born, had just as much an issue with the hecked paper ballots as with the machines. You see, we DO understand technology and using computers makes it EASIER to hack elections. It has nothing to do with age or luddism, it has everything to do with paying attention to political reality over a long time period. It was the younger "wow, we got to computerise everything!" crowd thaty pushed this shit. You dweebs can't take a dump without a computer, that's how retarded and incompetent you are.

    Here, go google "jim collier" and educate yourself to see what's been going on for a long time. Diebold is just "oooh, new shiny" pushed by the "computer generation". And BTW, you WERE warned about this prior to the 2000 elections,BY the "old fogies" in active political circles, yet most of you tards were all in favor of it. Don't believe it? Go back and LOOK at some of the forums where it got discussed. The older folks who have been around longer clearly said it was a bad idea, but we got told "no worries, it's just new comnputers! Embrace it!"

    meh, idiot kids...

    The second reality is, if you keep voting in/supporting/thinking there's some huge difference between the D and R party, that somehow you will "moveon" to better things, you will keep having a government made up of the two cooperating criminal gangs.

    Yes you will, so stop arguing about it. Been proven over and over again, go read some damn history!

    There WON'T be any meaningful political change until support for BOTH those parties dries up completely. OR, go ahead and be naieve and work for one of them..then wait a few years, see what happens. All they do is divvy up which of your rights they want to shaft you out of a and that's it. Both are in the pockets of the big lobbying corporations. Yes, your precious D party is too, get over it and "moveon" away from them as well. Crooks and liars. Same as the R party. Crooks and liars.

    You'll also find that older people have more knowledge of politics, are more active as a group, are certainly better at basic geography for the most part, and can clearly see when tech is a big fat waste of time and suitable only for extracting cash from naieve children, such as spending most of your spare time and dollars on anime or videogames or downloading screeching sounds for your equally ridiculous iPod or similar piece of overpriced consumer brainwashing crap. You get taken daily and can't even see it happening!

    In other words, get the hell off my lawn punk, pull that damn baby diaper pin out of your nose it's completely stupid, yes, you are going to regret those tats some day, and you're an idiot not fit to drive ever and yes, I probably did "do" Ur mom, while you were taking a nap in your crib and drooling!

    So lollerskates to you. Clean up your room. ;)

    1. Re:all the old fogies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ur a fool
      look @ all thos wasted keys

    2. Re:all the old fogies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Some other accomplishments of older (American) people:
      • Killed Kennedy
      • Killed Martin Luther King
      • Are responsible for the only use of Nuclear Weapons
      • Responsible for Income Tax in America
      • Created the Military Industrial Complex
      • Social Security policy that taxes your offspring in order to cover your ass
      • Lead Fillings
      • Lead Based Paint
      • McCarthyism
      • Korean War
      • Vietnam "War"
      • The idea of leveraging Conspicuous Consumption to sell more shit.
      • A broken public education system purposely designed to create factory workers

      Last and not least. You are responsible for creating this shithole situation we were born into. Take responsibility old man.
  69. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    Yes, there are 10 times as many people in the U.S.

    This is a logistical issue only. You have 10 times as many ballots to count, so you need 10 times as many people to count them.

    ...laura

  70. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by BandwidthHog · · Score: 0, Troll
    The clear solution is to quit "privatizing" everything

    Gee, too bad that word has already been defined in the public consciousness as the antonym of “communism.”

    Ain’t that a shame. Let me know how your pro-commu-- err, I mean, anti-privatization thing goes, will ya?

    --

    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
  71. Exactly by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    No one can tell the difference between a rigged election, an error, and an unexpected outcome. All of those are known to have happened.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  72. Clubbing is not enough?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have also to penetrate them also? Won't anybody think of the seals?

  73. The vote is already subverted by myowntrueself · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You can make the process of voting, the counting of the vote, secure, you can introduce all the technical and physical security you want.

    But the vote is *already* subverted by a social engineering attack which is practically unstoppable; media coverage of politics.

    This subverts democracy at the earliest stage; right where the voter forms the desire to vote one way or another.

    If you think this is bullshit consider advertising.

    Billions of dollars, shekels, yen and pounds are spent on the advertising of products. Does it work? Well I think that it would be foolish to assume that its money wasted.

    If advertising works for things like consumer products, foodstuffs, whiteware etc, shaping the way that people spend their money, why wouldn't it work for shaping the way that people spend their vote?

    A vote is just an item of currency that everyone has just one of and gets to spend it every so many years. Shaping voting patterns is exactly the same as shaping spending patterns.

    Problem is, without a crack-down on media presentation of politics its impossible to stop this kind of subversion. And if that were to happen, what would be the point in having a democracy in the first place?

    I don't think that democracy can exist in the modern world. A better term for what we *call* 'democracy' would be 'mediacracy'.

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  74. Fair and Balanced Vote Fraud by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Has anyone found any independently verified evidence of any of these digital voting devices used in an election won by a Democrat?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Fair and Balanced Vote Fraud by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Has anyone found any independently verified evidence of any of these digital voting devices used in an election won by a Democrat?

      But they were all won by Democrats, it's just that the rigged machines said they were won by Republicans... :|

      We can both maintain a poker-face, and neither of us will win.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    2. Re:Fair and Balanced Vote Fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Going back to 1998 all the come from behind victories have been Republican.
      Of course this could be liberal bias from the pollsters that didn't show up until 1998.
      Which coincides with the first uses of electronic voting.
      Do your own math, but depended on rightwing mindset YMMV

    3. Re:Fair and Balanced Vote Fraud by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      I'm fascinated by the total absence of any offers of evidence of digital voting devices somehow winning elections for Democrats.

      Yet every time I post evidence of Republican crimes, there's plenty of replies saying nothing but "Democrats are just as bad, there's no difference between the parties".

      I guess that Republican talking point is so well conditioned that you have to trigger it just right to get any output.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    4. Re:Fair and Balanced Vote Fraud by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

      Has anyone found any independently verified evidence of any of these digital voting devices used in an election won by a Democrat?

      Show me some independently verified evidence of Republicans defrauding the actual vote. Saying "BUT OMG TEH REPUBLICANS WANTED TEH MACHINES!" doesn't cut it.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    5. Re:Fair and Balanced Vote Fraud by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Bait & switch, typical Republican tactic. First, you find me an election with demonstrated "irregularities" (or worse) won by a Democrat, as I asked. Regardless of who, if anyone (other than bad luck/management) rigged it.

      You can't. So you try to change the question. Typical Republican scam. Worn out. Won't work anymore. Back into your cave.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  75. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Not always.
    In India, the introduction of EVMs [eci.gov.in] reduced the election expences by a magnitude of 10.
    Also, since there is a huge potential number of votes (upto 500 Million), it can reduce the time taken for the counting by a huge amount.


    You cannot put a price or time on democracy. This isn't a corporation, cutting costs should never be on the table when it comes to voting.

  76. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by jonbryce · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Which means you have 10x the amount of people available to count them. So it makes no real difference.

  77. Such as? by MarkusQ · · Score: 1
    No, I'm saying that the suggested device for combating institutional corruption -- public voting records -- has huge problems of its own. Those problems outweight the benefits, especially where there are other oversight mechanisms that may be equally effective in addressing the problem of vote-rigging on a large scale. There are reasons for having secret ballots that shouldn't be whimsically dismissed just because public ballots might seem useful in one particular context.

    I'm not "whimsically dismissing" anything. I'm saying point blank that unless I can verify that my vote was counted correctly/i> and you can verify that your vote was counted correctly, and so on, we are at risk of falling into in the worst case scenario of totalitarianism.

    Break it down. If you can verify your vote (and a thug is using this against you) you are no worse off then you are with a vote that you can't verify, since you can always just do what the thug asks. This has the same result as casting an unverifiable ballot that the thug's coworkers can modify. But the advantage that you overlook in the voter intimidation situation is that it can't be done without the voters knowledge. Thus the voters have the oportunity (and the motivation) to do something about it, instead of just going quietly to slaughter like good little sheep.

    What, pray tell, are these other mechanisms that give the same protection with no risk to the voter?

    --MarkusQ

    1. Re:Such as? by 1984 · · Score: 1
      I'm not "whimsically dismissing" anything. I'm saying point blank that unless I can verify that my vote was counted correctly and you can verify that your vote was counted correctly, and so on, we are at risk of falling into in the worst case scenario of totalitarianism.

      I disagree that tallying voters against votes is necessary for that -- it's verifying that only legitimate voters cast votes (ballot stuffing) and that all legimately-cast votes are counted (destroying ballots) that count for an election to be properly accountable. You don't have to be able to check your own vote for that to occur and if you can, there goes the individual anonymity, which is what we're talking about.

      Break it down. If you can verify your vote (and a thug is using this against you) you are no worse off then you are with a vote that you can't verify, since you can always just do what the thug asks. This has the same result as casting an unverifiable ballot that the thug's coworkers can modify. But the advantage that you overlook in the voter intimidation situation is that it can't be done without the voters knowledge. Thus the voters have the oportunity (and the motivation) to do something about it, instead of just going quietly to slaughter like good little sheep.

      No, the situations aren't identical in terms of the thug. If you know exactly who voted which way, you can target those you disagree with without false positives. As "the thug", be it state or local hoodlum, you're looking to subvert a process while preserving the notional legitmacy of that process, because you'll later point to it as evidence of a mandate. If you don't know how individuals are voting you risk beating up your own supporters, destroying both that support and the process itself. Also, I don't share your faith that people will rise up against evil when its presented to them, if the alternative is to hope someone else does. Nobody wants to be the first to speak up against the oppressor.

      What, pray tell, are these other mechanisms that give the same protection with no risk to the voter?

      Yes, I should put up or shut up. To the points of making sure votes are really votes, and that you've got them all: there are many established mechanisms around creating paper tokens that aren't easily duplicated and are numbered as a sequence -- money. Not impossible to counterfeit, but tricky. And on division of authority, those charged with creating, dstirbuting and counting those tokens can be arbitrarily divided to ensure that groups' interests in perverting the process isn't aligned, and to require enough organization and manipulation across different interest groups to make large scale riggin impractical. No, I don't have it all figured out, but I do think it's a problem solvable (to an acceptable degree) by a mixture of non-computerized voting and adequate procedure at all stages, without discarding the secret ballot.

  78. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by BandwidthHog · · Score: 1

    Cool link, I knew approximately how India’s electronic voting machines worked but had never seen a picture.

    Obviously it would be much cheaper to use such a beautifully simple electronic device as that instead of a full-blown general purpose computer, but how would it yield net savings against the paper-and-sharpie method, aside from requiring less volunteer labor to tally the paper ballots at the end of the night?

    --

    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
  79. "virtually" fool-proof system by Medievalist · · Score: 1

    Non-computer types often ask me what "virtual" means. I tell 'em it's the opposite of "canonical"; canonical means real and virtual means fake.

    So something that's virtually free is not really free, etc.

  80. Until someone does this in an actual election.. by TomRC · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Until someone does this in an actual election, and then announces that they've skewed the results (and they'd better do it anonymously, or jail awaits them), no on in power is going to pay any attention. Reform only happens after actual problems get the public upset.

    1. Re:Until someone does this in an actual election.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      OK OK, whoever hacked the 2004 election, come out with it already so the public can be outraged and throw you out of office.

    2. Re:Until someone does this in an actual election.. by ff3j · · Score: 1

      Someone posted this in a previous discussion of electronic voting I believe, but it's probably worth bringing up again... Clinton Curtis Testimony Ohio 2004

  81. Non-violent protest by hairykrishna · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I keep reading about how these machines are insanely easy to hack. Surely the next election will be determined by the patriotic hackers of america? Apply yourself people.

    --
    "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
  82. *shrug* by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    Diebold ATMs aren't exactly the most secure devices either. It's the bank it's attached to that implements all the security, from where it's installed to how the device indicates transactions that have occured.

    Besides, you're FDIC insured. You'll never know if an ATM has been successfully hacked because it's no skin off your back (although an OUT OF SERVICE sign may get taped to the front of it).

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  83. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by dan+the+person · · Score: 1

    Also, since there is a huge potential number of votes (upto 500 Million), it can reduce the time taken for the counting by a huge amount.

    The thing about countries with lots of peoples votes to count, is there are lots of people to count them.

    It should in fact require less people per vote on average to count them (economies of scale).

  84. we're almost there! by mikemulvaney · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is getting close, but its still too difficult to deal with a modchip. Someone stick "007 Agent Under Fire" in there and get a softmod working.

  85. Shoddy Security Features by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Product created with shoddy security features. Get rid of Diebold and hope the market brings a new contestant ..."

    A product created with shoddy security features being widely used....and hacked....what a concept *cough* Windows *cough*.


    Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos.

  86. Verification of votes in San Diego by oualline · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here is San Diego, the people counting the votes try and make the system
    not only count correctly but appear to count correctly.

    They use an optical system to read ballots marked by the voter.
    Random batches (about 5% the last time I checked) are selected
    for hand verification. In other words, the hand count the votes
    and then check what the machine came up with.

    Also for a small number of randomly selected precents, they hand
    count every vote. (All batches for all machines.)

    All ballots are kept for a certain amount of time. If you want to
    question the count, there is a procedure where you can get a
    recount of just about anything you want to.

    The ballot is the piece of paper. The machine helps count the ballots,
    but it's the paper that counts.

    Now it is possible to tamper with a machine. If you don't change the vote
    too much you have a small chance of getting caught. Tamper with many machines
    and the chance of discovery increases.

    So the counting process is fairly secure. Maybe not the best, but there are enough
    checks in the system to convince me that it's working.

    The real problem is that there are no validation process perfomed on the voter.
    You can signup to vote in 50 different voting locations if you want. You could
    even sign up to vote usign 50 different names in the same location and the poll workers
    could not question your ablity to vote.

    I could even get my three year old daughter a voter registeration and take her down
    to the polls. As long as I say that she's eighteen the poll workers can't question it.
    And if she votes absentee, they won't even get to see her, so she can learn to vote early.

    A real problem here has been with people signing up large groups of people who cannot legally
    vote (illegal aliens for example) and getting them to turn out on election day.

    Also there is the problem with corrupt election's officials "finding" enough absentee ballots
    to throw the election to their party. (See Washington State's governers race for example.)

    Technology is not the problem. Checks and balances can be build into the system to detect
    any tampering with the machines. There are much bigger problems with other parts of the system.

  87. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by thePig · · Score: 1

    The savings is manifold, I guess -
    1. Reuse of EVMs across elections. - Dont need to print ballots and have the associated security apparatus in place every election.
          Also, this is used in all elections - from small district level elections to nationwide one.
    2. Result obtained in 3-4 hours per booth - Dont have to keep the security system in operation for the entire 30-40 hours (the average time taken for counting of ballots in pre-EVM days) 30-40 hours ~= 4-5 days.
    3. Results obtained in a day - The whole commerical activities of the country grinds to a standstill during the days of counting. So savings happen implicitly if the results are obtained in 3-4 hours.
    4. Payment of the people to count the votes (maynot be explicitly there, but does happen in round about terms of govt work getting stopped due to election work etc).

    Maybe more ways are there, but I can think of only this much.

    --
    rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
  88. Someone had to say it by rk · · Score: 1

    It's a perfectly cromulent word!

  89. Security through Obscurity by CODiNE · · Score: 1

    Need I say any more?

    --
    Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
  90. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by canadian_right · · Score: 1

    But the Inian system is simple, cheap, scaleable, and almost tamper proof. How can you make a profit with that?

    --
    Anarchists never rule
  91. Suggestion to raise awareness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In any place where these machines will be used, hackers should organise to hack these machines and reverse the number of votes received for each candidate e.g. last = first etc. Once Ralph Nader is the next US president, I'm pretty sure everyone will agree that paper based voting has some undeniable merits.

  92. Done for perception purposes by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    If you wanted to hack the card, you could likely just do that by popping a cable inside the uinit and not have to remove it from the system.

    The whole retaining tab thing is just there for cosmetic purposes: to make it seem secure. It also does prevent a card-swap by anybody who has casual access to the device.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  93. What about this? by dougman · · Score: 1

    I'm late to the thread, but would there be a problem with this scenario:

    Use Diebold or whatever computerized machine.
    After you confirm your intentions and commit, a receipt would be printed. (maybe two - one for the person to take home?)
    You confirm the printout and drop it off with an election official.
    Random precincts and/or areas that contest the results could manually count the printouts versus the computer results.
    If the printouts don't jive, something is either up with the machines *or* officials are corrupt.

    I'm not so sure we can just say "We shouldn't use computers for this". If we could guarantee that the machine was 100% accurate and unhackable, then it would make a lot of sense. I think the problem is getting close to that 100% mark and there are probably ways to do it. I can guarantee that humans have never been 100% accurate and have never 100% honest on a national scale.

  94. Re:4 minutes by Sillygates · · Score: 1

    They really should just have a change statistics button on the side of the machine, that will ensure nobody actually breaks the machine when they go in for their 3rd and 4th votes.

    --
    I fear the Y2038 bug
  95. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People can secure machines and information systems as much as they want, but like everything else, it will fall with time. I think theoritically everything is unsecure in some form or fashion. People can be proactive about it and secure their servers but even if they are high grade servers with the most late breaking hardware and developed software, some guy can break into it eventually. Why? Humans evolve, and servers don't. It probably won't be some teenager in his basement, it would actually probably be a group of phd software programmers and server administrators hired by some person or group. Maybe not even the other canidate but some other 3rd world party who wants to corrupt us by getting some wild canidate into office. Or their canidate. Even secure hosting servers and my Information Technology Site suffers from the occasional bleep in security hole. Its unavoidable. So with that in mind, It would be a treacherous disaster to put our country's future into a "secure server" or macine.

  96. Maryland and rigging the election by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wonder if the person checked to see if Diebold place code to make sure republicans win? Now that would be a scandel? Maryland passed legislation not to use Diebold but to have scanners instead. Nice job :)

  97. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FYI electronic voting is not common in the US. Only a few high priority states use electronic voting, the rest use good old paper ballots.

  98. recount spoiler? by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

    option to spoil a recount?

    In school, I wanted a scanner to test different marks. IE as clear of lead mark that would trigger the reader, and a non lead marker that looked like a pencil mark. IE on a question that I knew it was A) or C), I mark C to be read by the machine, I mark A to be read by a human, you get the results back if the correct answer was A, then you protest the machine grading, and get it corrected to right. Of course if C was right, the machine would have read only it, and just hope no one double checked the scoring on that question.

    only Voting condition I could think of to take advantage of this, would require thousands of people to double mark the same precint, demand a recount their, throw into doubt all counts, could cause havock...

  99. USA: You've come a long way! by M0b1u5 · · Score: 1

    From a happy sort-of democracy, to the worst government money can buy: America you've come a long way since 1776.

    --
    How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
  100. Language is not an identifier by plopez · · Score: 1

    there are some places, e.g, the US Southwest and Indian reservations where ESL is common. This also may still be true in some ethnic neighborhoods in the North Eastern US.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  101. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

    In principle, size of the population doesn't matter. It's irrelevant if you have 500 million or 500 billion votes to count, as long as you have the same percentage of the population doing the counting. All the other points are valid however, but I'm pretty sure that the politicians in India are already carefully studying how their American compadres are rigging the system. You may find that the political views of the assorted intelligence of Bengalore and Hyderabad will find a promising place into the political system of India pretty soon.

  102. GET RID OF THE ANONYMOUS VOTING!!!! by Wescotte · · Score: 1

    Why do people care so much if somebody else knows who you vote for?

    Why not impliment a system where you can verify your vote?! Better yet in the process of verifying your vote it also asks you to consult with several people who live in your neighborhood to validate their vote as well. Something as simple as this pleaes ask this person at this address if they have validated their vote Y/N? You don't need to know whot hey voted for just that they checked their vote was recorded acurrately.

    That way not only can you know your vote was recorded accurately but there are things put in place to assure you that nobody is creating "fake votes" off people that don't really exist (or no longer exist)

    1. Re:GET RID OF THE ANONYMOUS VOTING!!!! by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      "Why do people care so much if somebody else knows who you vote for?"

      Because it leads to abuse of the voting system. For instance, if I really wanted to win a race I could spend my money on cash bribes instead of advertising, and have an easily way of verifying that the people I paid really voted for me.

  103. So... by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Bush must have shares in Diebold or something.

    Diebold have been the butt-end of so many serious security failures its not funny any more. Its obvious they don't have a clue about security and aren't likely to get a clue anytime soon judging from their ongoing record.

    Why are we still using this company's products? How many more times are the government going to allow Diebold to screw up?? Is there no-one else that makes a better system?

    1. Re:So... by doom · · Score: 2, Informative
      Bush must have shares in Diebold or something.
      You think that that's just a joke? Ken Blackwell, the secretary of state of Ohio has approved using machines from Diebold, and then did an "oops, I guess I own stock in that company!" Here's one version of the story.

      Anyway, it appears that the three big "electronic voting" companies are Republican shills, just going by the 2004 election data (exit poll discrepancies were bigger in districts using electronic voting, and all discrepencies were in the favor of the Republicans, they weren't random).

    2. Re:So... by fastasleep · · Score: 1
  104. I'm sick of you trolls. by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    I was told the last time we had elections that we'd not have them. Now this cycle I get the same 'there won't be elections.' Please. remove head from ass, and tin foil from head.

  105. Best comment so far! by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    I had 15 replies. And I get this one, "I'll be pissed either way' But who are YOU?

  106. GOP vs. Democrats - who should I fear the most? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Give me a break - in SF, you got a few militant vegan punk-hop lefties who remove your bumper stickers.

    I live in TN and work for a bunch of neo-cons - I had been on the job for 2 days and had a ball-peen hammer power-ding two spots on my driver-side door. Over a 6 month time, my rear fender's been dented at the top corner (where the side meets the rear - almost impossible to pull out the dent) with a similar hammer and a crack has been put in my windshield (first when I started working there and again after I replaced it). And the only sticker I have is critical of Enron and Dubya.

    I vote for people, not party politics - I'm not even a "liberal" and these t'baco chewing red-necked brown-shirts are bullying me because I'm critical of incompetence. The Enron/Bush thing is one of the best examples of how bad cronyism is in America today.

    Good people who call themselves "Repulicans" should be throwing Bush and Cheney into prison. But you will not believe how many "good" people in TN talk about how liberal reporters should be executed for treason, liberals like me (btw - I'm not, I'm just critical of incompetent power, Democratic or Republican) should be put in jail and tortured et cetera - and all this said is punctuated with a "God love'em."

    I partake of both partisan media camps - Listen to the rhetoric on both sides - I'm totally believing the violent potential of the GOP before I expect a bunch of peace-pop eating Democrats to seriously shoot me for being critical of incompetence. Criticize the Democrats, and I get more debate. Criticize the GOP, I get threatened, I get my car vandalized, I fret over my job's longevity.

    If I did not artfully dodge my political criticisms of the current holders of power, I'd be without a job, possibly without knee-caps to facilitate my bi-pedal mobility.

    My name is Thom - I haven't yet created a /. account and I'm not so much of a coward :-)

  107. Aussie Voting by glittalogik · · Score: 1

    Scaremongering is an extremely common form of political discourse, and by no means limited to Australian politics; hell, it's probably less rampant here than in American politics - this is, by and large, a fairly peaceful country, and there hasn't been an attack - military, terror-related or otherwise - for a couple of decades AFAIK. The scaremongering usually relates to welfare/healthcare, workers' and students' rights, civil liberties, taxes, nothing spectacular.

    We have a pretty-much two party system, the juggernauts being Liberal, actually liberal-conservative, and Labor, who are centre-left, with a bunch of small to medium special interest groups (Greens, One Nation, Libertarians et al.) who occasionally win a parliamentary seat here and there.

    I can't vote here as I'm not a citizen, but I did work at a polling station two federal elections ago, and I can tell you there was a decent proportion of deliberately spoiled ballots, which effectively do get counted as 'none of the above,' or votes for smaller special-interest groups like marijuana legalisation activists, religious 'family values' outfits, etc.

  108. risk vs reward is a deterrent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'd think that DieBold would have installed something that would start beeping, flashing, or explode after you open the top on the case or pull the memory card.

    As a poll worker in San Diego, I really hope those cards don't explode.

    Seriously though, there are far easier and legal ways to to game the elections than tampering with the machines (like emotional/slanderous ads or putting issues on the ballot to affect voter turnout). It's still also easy to vote provisionally to invalidate another persons votes regardless of voting technology. The risk/reward ratio is way out of whack, though.

    I personally don't like nor trust Diebold, but I do trust the voting system (checks, procedures, balances, people) enough that I'm certain an election won't be thrown in San Diego without a proportional risk (jail time) of the fraudster(s) being detected and made an example of. Just like parity memory, we know enough checks in place to detect fraud, but not necessarily correct it.

    I urge all U.S. Slashdot readers who are concerned about electronic voting problems to get involved in the process and actually work an election to help protect the vote. Constructively complain to election officials after working an election if you still believe that the process isn't secure enough. If you don't get involved in the process, your rants are as worthless as an armchair quarterback during a football game.

  109. Hundreds of years of cheating experience by Ardipithecus · · Score: 1
    Once upon a time there were mechanical machines. They were easy to fix and often arrived at the polling place "pre-loaded"

    They were replaced by the punch card "chad" type, which were rarely if ever recounted (we saw what happens when recounted). Just run through a card reader and the result read off. "Funky" cards were put aside.

    Here in Dade County and under the benign gaze of our holier-than-thou Miami Herald pseudo-newspaper, the computers would always "break down" while counting! Their big day, and they break. Bad boys. After one or two hours the count would resume. ;-) ;-) ;-) One time a "system" candidate (so badly steamrolled it could not be fixed), and who was losing per partial results, smilingly noted, "the machines are down, let's wait for them to start again." ;-) ;-) ;-)

    With paper ballots we have seen

    stuffed boxes,

    boxes lost, stolen, dumped into lakes,

    pre-marked ballots*,

    uncounted ballots

    secret counting (OH 04)

    Google "Battle of Athens" for fun in 1940s TN.

    Not to mention of course after-life voting, multiple voting, less booths at some precincts and more that apply to all methods.

    "They" find a way to cheat and steal. When crooks are outlawed, only outlaws will be crooks.

    *in the 04 OH election (some) people were given pre-marked ballots; upon complaining they received another marked ballot!

  110. Only on Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would Renton's Bev Harris get any sort of positive response whatsoever?

    That bitch is crazier than a batshit sandwich. She's got absolutely no evidence that this there's ever been a problem. I thought her 15 minutes of fame were up.

    Spending her time rummaging through the trash? *shakes head*

  111. Soviet Amerika! by dbIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Where convicted felons can't vote but they can be involved in the development and production of voting machines! If you wan't a kleptocracy just keep on going down that path.

  112. Evidence seals? by KoopaStar · · Score: 1

    What about putting the machines in evidence seals? That would make it a lot harder to get access to the machine in the first place. Also, if evidence seals can be used in a court of law, they should also work for voting procedures.

  113. Four minutes? by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    Security's improving, I see. So is the hax0r minimum requisite competency at "clever 8 year old with script" now, up from "trained monkey" back in '04?

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  114. Grab your tinfoil hat. by mg2 · · Score: 1
    So, as a former poll worker, I'll go ahead and clear up some of the assumptions that you've made:
    It's not people at the polling place that they're concerned with. Its the corrupt officials who get to take the machine home with them, who could replace valid vote data with a trumped up memory card showing a clear majority win for whoever is paying them the most.

    I ran one of the polling sites in San Diego where the EVMs were used this year, and I was one of the people who had these machines sitting in my place for a week prior to the election. I agree that having this equipment sitting in my house isn't ideal, but I don't personally think it means the end of fair and safe voting:
    1. Most of the Corrupt Officials in the training courses I had to attend were close to 80 years old. No, 110. I'll go so far as to divulge that they weren't even technically savvy enough to hook up the keypad and printer to the machine without a lot of help. These are not the people I suspect of tampering with the memory cards.
    2. To track down these officials and break into their home to gain access to these machines wouldn't be trivial. It wouldn't be impossible, but so what if you did? If I had any reason to believe that my machines had been touched, I'd get a new set. Plus, now the scope of the attack involves both hacking and breaking and entering.
    3. Replacing the memory card is also non-trivial. Even if I had a doctored card, the Election startup procedure requires that multiple precinct officials have to check the vote count on the machine and print out a paper "Zero Report" showing that absolutely no votes are stored on the card yet -- now the attack involves modifying Diebold's software to doctor these screens and printouts.
    4. Lastly, it's just not worth it. If you were able to execute this kind of attack as an Official or an Outsider, you'd be swaying a tiny number of votes in the grand scheme of things. A single precinct accounts for too small a percentage of total votes cast to justify the effort. To do this kind of attack at a large scale would require some sort of conspiracy between hundreds of election officials, or it would require a squad of ninjas to break into the houses of these hundreds of election officials undetected.

    To the credit of the people coordinating the election, procedures in San Diego were better than in most other parts of the nation. My voting machines were given to me and taken from me by armed police, and the regulations regarding seals and paper trails were well defined. I won't rule out some kind of dark police conspiracy either, but I'll admit that I thought about how I could modify the election results, and there was no viable method. Not without, say, the budget of a politician ;)
  115. re: Secret Ballot Receipts... by mrosgood · · Score: 1

    That's a very interesting paper. Thank you for the link. I've printed it out and will try to digest the algorithm. Looks I may have to amend my "cannot be done" position to merely "shouldn't be done". Haha.

    Seriously, I'd want to two things when considering the system Chaum proposes. First, I'd want to see it in action. The devil's in the details. Second, I'd want to see a list of pros and cons. One pros he lists is having a uniform means for handling normal and provisional ballots. That's a pretty good benefit. (I'm serving as a poll worker again this year. Rules and handling of provisional ballots are pretty complicated.)

  116. Disobedience by kyb · · Score: 1
    If these machines are all that bad, it seems like it should be easy to find a way to sabotage them completely, and ideally untracably. You might not get an opportunity to have your vote counted, but it seems to me that it's better that you make the machine inoperable rather than vote and run the risk of having your vote counted for the wrong candidate, etc.

    A group of people with dedication could destroy each of these machines very quickly after polls open, so minimising the number of lost ballots.

  117. You impatient Yanks.... by ad_smith1980 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Which is better? You may NOT pick a third option:

    (1) Computer "voting" systems that can produce a total vote in five minutes but be rigged by one party to produce a false result.

    (2) Paper ballots marked with an "X" and counted by hand, which take days or weeks to count but are recountable verifiable.

    Why is it Americans would willingly accept and incorrect and fraudulent vote count than an accurate paper count simply because it's faster?

    *Two* months will pass before the "elected" president takes office after voting day. Why, then, is it such a rush to reach a final and incorrect total? Paper ballots may take days or even weeks, but they can be recounted and checked for fraud.

    Once the person is sworn in, you have to live with that decision for four years. Do you really want to give up your entire democracy just because you're too lazy to spend a few hours counting paper ballots?

  118. OK, let's think this one through. by goldcd · · Score: 1

    He thought stickers on cars 'work'
    Majority of his company is republican
    He is democrat
    They made everybody remove political stickers from all the cars
    SURELY - this stupid rule meant more potential republican stickers were blocked than democrat ones - so this would be a 'good' thing.

  119. And here's how someone can prove to have done it by rbarreira · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And how would he/she prove that claim was true? Just asking, not saying it's impossible. Oh wait, here is the method:

    One week before election day, the person posts a message to any publicly acessible place (such as a newsgroup, but surely there are better alternatives which give more trust for being more verifiable) containing one or more hash of the following sentence (MD5, SHA-1, whatever):

    "In state X, county Y, candidate A will have exactly 1144 votes and candidate B will have exactly 905 votes because I will have rigged the election. A week after the counting, I shall reveal this message to prove this claim. Cryptographical hashes of this message have been posted one week before election day at alt.foobar.org"

    One week after the election, the person unleashes this message and then everyone can verify the hashes and conclude that at least one of the following is true:

    (1) The person is very lucky at doing predictions
    (2) The person can predict the future and should play the lottery
    (3) The person has cracked all of those hashing algorithms
    (4) The person has in fact rigged the election

    --

    The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
  120. It's still stupid by brunes69 · · Score: 1

    You could could still nerver perform this attack in practice because you can't just walk into a voting area and start disassmebling the machine without people noticing!

    This is like saying all house locks are vulnerable to attack because you can break them open with a crowbar.

  121. Easy way to rig an election by yourself by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Blow up the polling station as the polls close.

    I've seen ballot boxes you could drop an envelope full of explosives into.

    If you are suicidal or don't mind getting caught, you can eliminate an entire precinct, which can be enough to turn a local election.

    Although it won't stop this particular scenario, I recommend:
    Electronically-assisted paper ballots:
    The voting machine prints out a paper ballot. This ballot is smudge/chad-free, printed in your language plus english, and has only the elections you are entitled to vote for on it. If the ballot is spoiled for any reason, you ask for another one and try again. If it looks good, you then take that ballot and drop it into a vote-counting machine. The vote-counting machine keeps a running total, which is then sent via modem or other means to voting HQ right after the polls close. Within minutes, you have a 100%-of-precints-reporting preliminary results. Later, at voting HQ, all precincts are re-counted by a different vote-counting machine from a different vendor using different vote-counting hardware and software. A large random sample of precincts then get partially re-counted by hand to see if the partial hand-count results and machine results are statistically close enough. Discrepancies, if any, are investigated.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  122. Just to clarify by davidwr · · Score: 1

    The voting machine spits out a paper ballot with your vote already marked on it. Until you take that ballot and drop it in the vote-counting machine, it doesn't count.

    Technophobes and those who cannot for whatever reason use the electronic machine are free to use an umarked ballot and a marking pen, with the caveat that the machine may reject it or worse, misread it, if it cannot read the vote.

    The latter scenario is what some counties have successfully used for decades. Adding an electronic vote-casting machine prevents mismarks and helps the blind, illiterate, and others who have difficulty marking a paper ballot.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  123. Rigging elections is extremely profitable! by natoochtoniket · · Score: 1

    Actually, it matters a great deal whether or not the election is actually rigged. In every election, there is a huge amount of money at stake. An elected official can control the spending of billions of dollars. So there is a huge incentive to rig elections. Hence, if there is any possible way that the voting can be rigged, we can be sure that is is rigged.

    1. Re:Rigging elections is extremely profitable! by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 1
      Actually, it matters a great deal whether or not the election is actually rigged.

      I should clarify: if your goal is to rig an election then it matters a great deal that the election get rigged, preferably the way you wanted it to be rigged.

      But no one promoting digital voting as enhancing democracy would admit to that.

      But if your goal is to enhance democracy, then it doesn't really matter whether what you're offering enhances democracy or allows the election to be rigged. If it does not at least appear to preclude the possibility of rigging the election, if will be viewed as a failed solution.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

  124. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by laird · · Score: 1

    "You have two machines. The first has a touch screen with a user-friendly interface. It presents your options in whatever language you prefer, and receives your votes. It prohibits you from entering invalid selections, such as selecting two candidates instead of one. Your votes are presented to you on the screen for review, with an option to go back and correct any mistakes. Finally if you are finished, the machine prints your votes on a paper ballot, in a format that is both human-readable and machine-readable. You take this paper ballot, and review it for accuracy. The machine you just used erases any record of your vote in preparation for the next voter. Your vote is not counted at this point.

    You then take this paper ballot, and feed it into a second machine, which counts your vote and securely stores your ballot. These ballots can be counted by hand later, and compared to the computerized count. If the counting machine isn't counting votes accurately, the problem can be easily detected, and the ballots counted by hand."

    You've basically described what the Open Voting Consortium (http://www.openvotingconsortium.org) has implemented and is promoting. Go help out!

  125. The government will not investigate this until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    ... a Libertarian wins an election -- with 99% of the vote. THEN you'll see Congress swing into high gear, demanding to know *how* the election was "stolen". (By wardriving: the dirty little secret of voting machines without paper trails is that they can be hacked by wifi.) It's an unfortunate fact that the Democrats and Republicans have a Good Thing Going and, as long as their (one)party(state) isn't crashed by one of those little parties, they will be glad to continue it into the indefinite future. The main stream media is also complicit; here's an article that terms nonRepDem candidates "spoilers" before the election *has even happened*. That's real objective, huh? The only thing that would be spoiled, of course, is the status quo's lock on power.

  126. Re:There is only one problem with electronic votin by Phroggy · · Score: 1

    I never claimed to have come up with the idea. ;-)

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  127. Just order an absentee ballot by FishinDave · · Score: 1

    Problems solved.

  128. Mediacracy, Mediocrity... by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1
    I don't think that democracy can exist in the modern world. A better term for what we *call* 'democracy' would be 'mediacracy'.

    Methinks "mediocrity" would be more accurate. As noted elsewhere,

    Mediocrity:
    It takes a lot less time and most people won't notice the difference until it's too late.

    This seems a very fitting description of how the US election process is being handled...

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."