Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft or Google?
Undecided asks: "I will be graduating next April, and I have been fortunate enough to receive job offers from both Microsoft and Google. This has left me with a bit of a conundrum, however — I'm having real difficulty deciding which offer to accept. Putting aside compensation and other personal circumstances that will factor into my decision, what is the Slashdot community's take on this? Am I crazy not to go with Google? I am especially interested in the insight of others working in the computer science industry, in particular those who may have experienced what it's like to work at both companies."
Guess Cliff thinks Sony is the answer?
A professor of mine (who went away and came back to visit) said that if you work at Microsoft you'll have a life outside of work. If you work at Google, then work will be your life. At Google you'll end up being at work all the time, but you'll enjoy it, and you get really good free food. But at Microsoft you can at least go hiking or something on the weekends. They're both pretty demanding though, I take it.
That's what I've heard as far as corporate culture goes. As far as business practices go and innovation, that's common knowledge.
And what... no Apple?
Seatle or SF Areas? That should be a better question. It is the quaility of life, not the job.
Do not go to the dark side.
01/20/09
besides the question, i really digg the logo associated with this story.
It rains a lot in Seattle. Not steady rain, but dripping and drizzle. In the winter it gets light late and dark early and is cloudy and gloomy. A great place to be a mushroom.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
You've been reading Slashdot how long? You must have seen all the articles about how Microsoft's toxic and dysfunctional culture destroys innovation and quality. When's the last time they shipped something truly innovative, or even better than the competition?
One of the ACs has it right. If you even have to ask the question, you deserve to end up at Microsoft.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Google is still in its early days, and it has a reputation for innovation and intelligence (the same reputation that Microsoft had in the early 80s). If you like Google and stay for a long time, you might have a lot of room to move up the ladder. Microsoft is where IBM was in the 80s, but with cheaper tailors: they dominate the industry, but not the mind share, and it's a mature organization with less room for advancement.
Just read my sig, I think it speaks for itself.
Game! - Where the stick is mightier than the sword!
There's a small company called SCO that you may be interested in. They used to make a Linux workalike called SCO OpenServer. It's almost the same as working at Microsoft, except without the gyms and free coffee.
...on what they each want you to do, and what you want to do. If you want to be the guy/girl who codes the next Excel interface (or more likely the one who chooses the next font for the Excel Help menu) go with Microsoft. If you want to develop applications that start with "g", go with Google.
Or, seriously, if you want/need a somewhat more traditional (all relative of course), go MSFT. If you want to be hip and work more flexibly, go GOOG. Google is obviously hot right now, but where exactly are they going? Will they survive and prosper through the Web 2.0 collapse? Microsoft, regardless of our personal opinions, has product, and cash. Lots of cash.
If I could offer a third alternative: skip them both for now and take a year off to walk across Tibet, or kayak down the Nile. You'll be working for the rest of your life. Do something fun with your youth.
There's no way to know other than to work for both for a year and then deciding, which you probably cannot do. There's so many factors that are involved and the interview process gives you very little information. Do you like the "mission" of the teams you would be joining? Will you get along with your co-workers? It may be that the real answer is that neither company is the best fit for you. There are bright people and good teams all over the world in all sorts of companies.
Tell both companies the other has noted in an interest in you working there and ask the question that most job interviewees hate; but not "Why should you work for us?" but "Why should I work for you?" It's the question they will be least expecting and the answer may be somewhat telling.
...tea or coffee? I admit, these are tough choices.
Ask yourself a question - who do you want to work for?
Web 2.0 is almost certainly the future, and chances are very good that neither Google nor Microsoft will provide the first real web 2 killer app, but with google you'd be on the right side of the technological dividing line.
Go with google for a few years. And for some real fun, if you like working long hours, join a startup, cause thta's the only way to make big money, although your changes are only slightly better than winning the lottery.
Salut,
Jacques
I'd say Microsoft would be better for your CV, Google for your career. A subtle but important difference. In the early days you need a big safe 'corporate' name to gain credability, that would be MS. After that you need a firm like Google to actually allow you to grow and advance.
That said, If I was young, I'd go for Google but then I have zero career sense when it comes to myself.
I'm amazed that someone said MS got you the weekend off, I always got the impression they were hard workers and everyone there was burned out.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
If you have job offers from both Microsoft and Google, you're obviously orders of magnitude superior as a programmer to 99.99% of the dullards here. What the hell do you care what they think? Ask your professors if they can hook you up with some alumni who work at one company or the other and see what they say.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Does the group you are going to work in excite you?
It should be a small exicting group and people.
In large companies, work culture within different organisations
can differ.
You've already made up your mind by asking Slashdot in the first place. Obviously, you have some kind of wish to work with Google and not Microsoft. Similar questions include "should I get a job lobbying for the EFF or the RIAA?" and "should I invest in SCO or Red Hat?"
Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
Pick neither. If you can, try to find an interesting small company to work for. Having worked for both large and small companies I much prefer the atmosphere that you can only get in a more intimate work environment. It's only a matter of time before bureaucracy and HR catch up with Google, and I'm sure Microsoft is already there.
By all accounts, Microsoft has become internally mired in middle management and ineffeciencies while also stagnating quite a bit in innovation if they ever had it to begin with. But that is another discussion altogether. Google is nimble, making waves and doing very exciting things.
So who do you want--the company that views the world as its domain or the company that views the world as a world of information and possibility?
No one has ever heard of Google. You don't want an unknown name like that on your CV.
But be very careful figuring how much it will cost you to live in the Redmond vs. Bay areas. Also consider how soon you could get married and have kids. It gets WAY more expensive to house a family in the Bay area.
What exactly does each company want you to do for them if you were to work for them? Are either going to drone you? Are either going to put you into a position where you are going to be able to have some freedom and personal satisfaction in your work? Job satisfaction, as well as life satisfaction, will be important. Which job looks as if it's going to allow you to really experience what you need in life? Which is going to allow you to grow as a person outside of work? (If that is a desired result, that is) Also, and I know this is trivial, which is going to offer you better benefits right away?
I'm not sure that buying someone else's product and slapping your name on it is the sort of innovation the original poster had in mind...
If it were me, there would be some shame in admitting that I worked for Microsoft... but maybe that's just me. You could always tell people you are working to bring the system down from the inside.
Innovative? Intelligence? Pah. Microsoft were a box-shifter in the early 1980s, punting BASIC and Multiplan to any and all who would license it. "Hey, Radio Shack are about to release another crappy 8-bit computer without a programming language, we can sell BASIC for it! Hurrah! Next stop, the Commodore C128!" Windows was far from innovative at release, and Microsoft's dedicated R&D department wasn't created until 1991.
Google have constantly innovated, while Microsoft have consistently stood in the shadow of greater technology giants, pen and paper ready to take notes. MS may have financial muscle and market presence, but that surely shouldn't be the end-point of a career decision?
neuro at well dot com (when I post, it's my opinions, no-one elses)
I still have friends at MS and they are putting in 60+ hours because their managers insist on it. One guy hates it, but the pay is good (he makes 160K there) and the other guys stays because of what he does (not wild about the hour, but likes the job).
At Google, from what I have heard, the members put in the hours because it is fun, not because it is demanded of them. Biiiig difference.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Putting my dislike of Microsoft aside (but Bill is one heck of a Marketer), Google is expanding and setting the pace for everyone else to follow. Going to Microsoft, you might feel that you work for a company that is trying to keep up with someone else in some area of the industry (Apple with the IPod, Google with Search, etc).
That isn't a Troll, that's an opinion...then again "-1 Troll" is an opinion, too.
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
You're asking this at the /. crowd?
NEOCA - Custom LED Flashlights
If you work in a tech position for a regular company, generally, you will put in 35-50 Hr/wk. They simply want a warm body in a chair and most companies view tech as a needed evil.
OTH, if you work for a tech company, then the hours are demanded by releases. In general, higher tech companies have more and faster releases (i.e. more work, longer hours). They need things done and tech is EVERYTHING.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
This is decidedly off-topic, but I had to try three times before I managed to get past "Microsoft were a..." and "Google have constantly...", etc.
As it's not talk like a pirate day, I am left with two possible explanations:
I'm hoping you be a pirate, mainly because I be lookin fer some software on the cheap...err, I mean booty, ARRRRR!!!
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
So, Microsoft learns from others and makes it's own 'improvements', and that's a bad thing?
(off-topic) And meta-moderation is an opinion, etc., et. al., so on, and so forth
Then he is working for MS and Sun only via Proxy.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You didnt say what your work area will be:
If you are a janitor, then pick the one with the least floor area.
If you are a security guard, Google is probably safer from disgruntled customers or workers going postal.
If you are a window cleaner, go with Google. I hear the chicks are hotter.
If you are a chef, go with Google, cos their food sounds pretty good.
If you are a maintenance tech, go with MSFT - rigid corporates are less likley to ride their scooters into the wall.
If you are a russian spy, work for MSFT. They are evil.
If you are an X-ray technician, WTF are you doing in IT....
When was the last time that a nobody started a project for MS? It was back in the 80's. All the other items have come from Marketing and strategy groups. The days of a nobody geek developing a product for MS that they take to the market are LONG over (not that MS really had been innovative).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Microsoft's actually not one big monolithic Borg culture as Slashdot likes to jest. I have made many friends with Microsoft people over the years, and have one friend who works for Google. So, take what I'm about to say somewhat at face value; it's all second-hand information anyway.
Google might be a good place to work if you just really feel that their products and services are going to be part of the next big wave of technology. They are doing a lot of cool stuff with network computing which I think people failed to predict a few years ago, and they have a culture of "doing the cool stuff". However, they're a small company. Despite their significant resources, they are still as susceptible to the mood of the market as any other relatively small company. Sure, they can liquidate resources if they get in a pinch due to the whims of the marketplace, but to do so would invariably affect their deliverable services and drive more people away. That's a hard place to be and could lead to a devolution of Google within a very short timeframe. They've been lucky so far, and I have to admit I do like their products a lot. However, I don't pay for them. At least not directly.
Microsoft is a big company with deep pockets and wide reserves that can weather a storm in the economy much better than Google. Sure, again they can liquidate resources in a crunch but it would take an economic disaster far worse than the Dot Com crash to kill a company like Microsoft. We as the Open Source / Apple / Tech crowd might want to believe Microsoft will be beaten by , but that's not really going to happen any time soon.
Google has a monoculture. Sure, they're a small company doing some cool stuff but they're still quite focused on a particular market. When you work for Google, you work for the company. Microsoft surprisingly has many different cultures depending on where in Microsoft you work. Microsoft is not one company, not really. It's a gestalt entity that shares the umbrella name of "Microsoft", but each division is run differently by different people with different management styles and personalities. This makes sense because each division does something very different. Even different areas of the country provide different cultures; I find the Microsoft guys I work with and know in St. Louis are VERY different from the Microsoft friends of mine in New York, at least in terms of business. They work differently, they think differently.
Bear in mind also that a job at Microsoft doesn't tie you to Redmond. You can pretty much work anywhere in the world. Last I checked, Google is in SF and that's about it. Bear that in mind; at Microsoft you can transfer your job to any of the other communities where they perform that function. Especially Microsoft Consulting Services... you can pretty much pick your location after you've been at MS for 6 months to a year and really proven yourself.
On the down side, I do know that Google tends to be an easy-going work environment, though with a veiled sense of pressure. Employees are subtly pressured to work far beyond 40 hours a week and thus it's not a good career in my opinion for someone with a family or someone intending to start a family. However, it *is* a fun place to work with lots of dynamic individuals who work hard but also play hard. Microsoft... well it depends where you work. There are fewer chances for advancement within Microsoft because people do tend to stay there. That also to my mind speaks to how good Microsoft actually are to work for; people tend to start there and stay there. However, the chances to "make it big with MS Stock" are over and have been for years. There may still be room for Google millionaires for real rock-star employees... MS... less so. However, the lack of advancement in my opinion is more than made up for by the flexibility of work location I mentioned previously.
I have to say that those friends of mine who work for Microsoft really enjoy their work. Many of them are as much of a geek as I am... running Linux and Vista on thei
I've no direct experience with either company. But this much seems obvious: as the Vista and VOffice roll-outs begin, much of Microsoft's resources are going to be turned from these major development projects to other things. There will be a lot of reassignment of duties, especially at the team leader level-- the people who will have the most influence on your daily work environment as a new hire. In other institutions I have personally seen how this leads to an increase in the amount of hidden, personal agenda crap that people bring into their jobs-- and this definitely affects the quality of the work experience. If you see the workplace as a corporate jungle ruled by tooth and claw, then you might enjoy this kind of environment and do well in it. OTOH, be wary of the friendly overtures of others for it can be hard to tell the person who is looking for mutual support from the person who intends to use you as a support as they try to step over to what they really want.
In contrast, Google's near-term future looks pretty stable: continued refinement of GOffice, Google Earth, and similar projects with no major shifts in corporate emphasis in sight. Combined with other things I have heard about Google's management style, it sounds like the Google environment currently promotes cooperation and community values among its staff, and that this is likely to continue for a few years.
Keep in mind that the most important thing you will get out of your first job is the social network you develop with your peers and immediate supervisors. These contacts can have more impact on the first decade of your career than any other thing.
Title says: Microsoft or Google?
Icon says: Sony
Brilliant!
I'm surprised at how rational most of these posts that I've read in this thread are! I was expecting to see a long string of posts bad mouthing the MS corporate culture at every turn and praising Google at every chance. I've seen posts that actually rationally compare the working environment, the actual corporate culture, and what factors this guy should use to make his decision. Most of the best posts that I've read state that Google is a workaholic company at the moment, but with lots lof long term potential to move up. In similiar posts MS apparently has a more long term healthy attitude in expecting their employees to have a life outside of work though their mature company and advancement would be what's normal for a large company.
Honestly reading the topic, I think that that guy should make up his own mind and not ask slashdot unless he wanted our opinions about some of the actual corporate environment rather than what was shown to him during interviews. What's really ironic is that likely the folks at both Google and MS are reading this thread and mentally comparing their work places. We need to have slashdot poll for those that work for google, those that work directly at MS, those that are MS contractors, those that are employeed in the IT field and actually work with employees from either company, IT people in general, hey I read slashdot and would like to be employeed in the IT field in the US at any employer, and my job was outsourced to India or downsided to make room for these new cheaper grads you so I'm pissed at the guy for being offered my old job for less money.
The fact that you're wondering which to work at means you should work at Microsoft. I'm not going to clarify why. You'll figure it out. Or you won't. But you're way past old enough to know why already, and you don't.
You'll be happier at Microsoft.
I wrote "the same reputation that Microsoft had in the early 80s." Reputation is a very slippery thing, and it does not have a very direct relationship to reality. Back in the early 80s the popular media was full of stories about how working at Microsoft was about only hiring very smart people, working a lot of 100 hour weeks, free junk food, pool tables, and pinball and video game machines in the work areas, lots of leeway to try new things, &c. That was the perception, and that perception helped people move on from Microsoft to great positions at other workplaces in the industry. Windows wasn't released until 1985, and soon after that (and in part because of that, and the obvious derivativeness of Windows -- most assumed it was directly and entirely derived from the Macintosh, not knowing the whole messy history), the perception of Microsoft had changed to the "We did it Second!" reputation it had until the Windows 3 "We Are Microsoft. You will be assimiliated." behemoth days.
Cliff just didn't correct it before posting.
"Google or Microsoft" hmm? Why don't you just google it?
Isn't the 20% growth rate we already have enough for you? You want MORE Californians coming up here and clogging up our freeways?
*ahem* Yes you are right the weather is terrible and all the people here are really rude and there are not any hot chicks! PLEASE STAY IN CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS!
Comment of the year
If you are one of those people who "lives to work", has no ambitions of settling down or starting a family, isn't risk-averse, and likes Arnold Schwarzenegger and the laid-back stoner-headed culture of California, then pick Google.
If you are one of those people who "works to live", has a family or plans to start one, prefers the stability of a company that focuses on revenue and profit over being an R&D lab, and likes being surrounded by polite but anal-retentive liberal environmentalist organic vegans, then pick Microsoft.
The myths you hear about "mandatory overtime" at Microsoft are bullshit. I work there as a developer, and I can tell you that the amount of overtime people put in varies depending upon what group they choose to work in and how efficient (or not) they are at getting their work done quickly. There are very few times of year when I have to put in more than the typical 40-hour work-week. Of course, some people I know who are working on Vista are putting in tons of late hours these days. So it varies a lot. I suppose the same is true at Google -- lots of variation, depending on what you choose to work on, your working efficiency, and the culture of the group you choose.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
Well, others mentioned rain.
I'll bring up the fact that both Seattle and 'Frisco are geologically dangerous places.
I know, people love both places and refuse to leave or consider the danger. And I'm not saying it's dangerous THIS WEEK, but still the dangers are real.
Seattle sits where Mt. Rainier could destroy it in moments with a major eruption (yes, Rainier is still considered to be an active volcano), and San Francisco sits right on top of the San Andreas fault (not to mention thousands of others).
But if that's not a concern for you, I think I'd go for Google were I in your shoes, and willing to move to the left coast. I hear it's a fun place to work, and they've got some really high-level people there.
How much do you value your free time and do you have a girlfriend? Do you want to keep her? Is salary important or is job satisfaction?
I very much doubt you will find a cut and dry answer to your question here.
Try to find out about both companies and the culture as much as possible. Don't be afraid to ask - it shows you're interested and enthusiastic.
There's two polar ways to work, and I've experienced both:
- The jobs where you're above it and life is easy, and you have lots of free time.
- At the other end, the jobs where you're key to the project, spend massive amounts of time on it with no end in sight, travelling the world and feeling important (whether you really are or not is irrelivent).
The first is easy, but gets very boring. The latter is great if you love being at work and don't have a family or other commitments. I do have a family, and it was only fun for a short while.
For me, the balance was in the middle, which happily I've found. Where you sit on the scale is entirely up to you - but it does sound like Google is on the crazy end and Microsoft is a bit towards the other end.
Your choice. Make an informed decision.
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
uh... oh... hey... did you hear that? *pauses* ... yup... I think that was the sound jealousy makes, kids...
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
I don't see how Forth users are more opinionated in their meta-moderation than C# or Python users.
Now LISPers, that's a different story.
I've read pretty good advices but I think you should also consider this...
If you had to state out loud in front of 2k people whom you work for, which company would make you proud enough to yell that you work for them ? without making you want to hide under the rug.
Because in the end, you have to like your job, you have to be able to embrace the company's goals and methods.
Don't aim at which job will give you the most $$$ or which one will get your career advance faster. Things come in due time when you do them right. If both companies appeals to you, then go for the best offer. If you don't like the way Google do things then go for MS - or vice versa. If none of them appeals to you, turn down both of 'em. If THEY want you, chances are you are qualified enough to get a job wherever YOU want.
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
Umm, really? I grew up in the Northern Virginia area (suburbs of DC), and we truly had four seasons there. After living in Seattle for the past few years (now working at MS, go figure), I'd have to say it's Seattle that has two seasons:
1) Rainy/wet season (Late fall, winter, early spring)
2) Awesome non-humid, always-sunny, summer season
The first season does admittedly suck. It actually doesn't rain heavily, it just drizzles
The second season, many people don't know about. The Seattle area can go for weeks without a drop of rain, during the summer. Don't believe me? Check out the climate chart. It doesn't get overly hot or humid either, with highs only in the 70s most of the time. While much of the country was boiling in heat waves this summer, it was often clear skies with a high of 75 around here.
-- jchenx
I work in MS, and I can tell you that we don't work 60+ weeks where I am. It's the same way with other groups. But there are teams that are under crunch time, and I'm sure they might be putting in late hours (Vista anyone?). I'm guessing it's the same way with Google. Some groups are going to be under more pressure than others, or maybe it's the end of a milestone, etc.
If anything MS is trying to push for a more "friendly, softer side" of things regarding work-life balance, etc. We've had some major HR overhauls and revisions in the past few months, and I can say that it is making a difference. Also, the benefits package in general for MS is amazing. I don't know what Google offers, but the author should definately take that into account.
-- jchenx
Actually, I thought Xbox fit that model. It wasn't started by a "nobody" per say, but I'm pretty sure it was NOT through marketing or strategy. If anything, Bill and company had to be really convinced to dive into the console industry.
-- jchenx
As I've noted in my other posts, I work for MS and I'd have to disagree somewhat. It all depends on the groups you end up in. I definately know of people here that work on tiny, insignificant roles in the company. Most often, they seem to be in the "big divisions" (Windows and Office). But I know of many people (including those in my group), that work on a wide variety of "different and interesting" projects, that have a key impact on customers. Maybe not on MS overall, but if I had to choose between making MS happy, and making millions of customers happy, it's certainly the latter that I'm choosing.
The way MS works is that there are a ton of these little product units that almost act like a company within themselves. So you get a lot of the benefits of working in a small company (high visibility among your peers) along with the benefits of a large company (stability, etc). Granted, there are a lot of disadvantages as well (red-tape, paperwork, etc.).
It's probably moot for the author, since I would imagine it's the same setup at Google as well. It appears they have many little teams as well, all working on their own bit of Google-goodness. So my advice: check out which groups gave you an offer, and decide what you would rather work on. Personally, I only chose to work at MS because I got to work in the games industry. I definately would not have come here just to work on Office or Windows, despite them being the huge drivers of the company.
-- jchenx
If the choice isn't obvious, then you belong at Microsoft. You're made for each other.
If you choose Microsoft, you can take them down from the inside, use the money they give you against them, and that sort of thing. But then you have to admit that you work at Microsoft. But just because they have more money doesnt mean theat your salary is going to be higher. And at Google (from what I've heard), your job is taking the Segway to the tennis court/coffee shop/whatever and thinking of ideas. Then producing them.
13. Any legal action is absolutly excluded. (Pi World Ranking List rules)
I ask, because when you get hit by one, the softer the better!
Google! Okay, next question.
games journalism blog
I'm not really a developer. Sure I code occasionally, but that is not the core of my job. I do, however, work at a development house. We're a small company and we are really, really picky about who we hire. There are a handful of people who have come to us from MS. They all seem to like it here much more and have settled in for the long haul and occasionally grumble about how bad things were at MS by comparison. We don't have anyone from Google, but we've had several people leave here to go work for Google. They all seem pretty happy with it there.
Based solely on my impressions from these people, I'd much rather be at Google than MS. I'm sure, however, that your experience will depend upon what you'd be doing at each place and with whom. Good luck.
"When's the last time they shipped something truly innovative, or even better than the competition?"
Microsoft Office. Even Apple embraces it.
/* No Comment */
google 1,660,000,000 results
microsoft 964,000,000 results
Goole is the best choice:
1) Momentum is upwards
2) 20% free time to do what you like, and follow your project dreams as it were with the backing of a giant corperation.
3) Same free food at both places, thus not a factor
4) Google is drawing in all sorts of interesting people, the kind you want to associate with early in a career.
Much has been made about the hours worked at Microsoft and Google. But here is the thing - when you are just out of school, and you are the kind of person that Google or Microsoft would want to hire you are drawn to those long hours as a moth to a flame. Bad analogy really, for it is a flame of education and you are the pheonix. This is your time to follow your passion for your job and learn all you can through it. Sure you'll work longer hours but it's something you'll be enjoying the hell out of if you do it right. I worked long hours too for a number of years in my first few jobs and I have no regrets at all on that score as I had some great experiences and learned a lot.
P.S. Did I mention 20% time to work on any projects you like? How can you pass that up?
For the record, I do not work at either Google or Microsoft.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The friend at MS has changed groups within the company twice in the last several years to attempt finding something to do with his considerable talent that doesn't make him cringe. He's there because the company he previously worked for was bought by Microsoft and he wanted to continue working on the product. That didn't last long.
The friend at Google has been doing the same thing for the past couple of years and has definitely drank the cool-aid. He loves it. I can also tell you that he doesn't work crazy hours, or he wouldn't be playing D&D with me on weekends, or going to Europe on vacation (where he is right this moment).
That being said, where do you want to live? Microsoft - Redmond, Google - Mountain View
Do you like cold, wet and snow? Then Redmond sounds like you're kind of place.
Do you like 9 months of sunshine and almost never temperatures below freezing (even at night)? Then Mountain View is probably the better choice.
Housing is more expensive in the Mountain View (and most of the Bay Area) than Seattle. Everything else is about the same.
Personally, I've chosen the Bay Area. I come from the frozen north and will never live where it snows again. I'm also not from a small town, so I really like the diversity and variation of this area.
My question to you is: What are you looking for in a job, and in a place to live? Your answer will tell you where to go and what to do.
Good luck!
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
I would give you that I read in Dalai Lamas book. Decide on what gives you happniess not on what gives you pleasure. hope it helps
Dear Slashdot,
I am thinking of settling down, and I have been fortunate enough to receive offers of marriage from both a Brazilian supermodel and an Italian supermodel. This has left me with a bit of a conundrum, however - I'm having real difficulty deciding which offer to accept. Putting aside the life of incredible wealth and sexual satisfaction I am sure to receive either way, what is the Slashdot community's take on this? Am I crazy not to go with the Brazilian? I am especially interested in the insight of others who have married supermodels, in particular those who may have experienced what it's like to date models of both nationalities.
Undecided
I worked for IBM for about 5 years. What I found out was that a corporation is not homogenous. In IBM, you could be an egghead in one of the research labs working on cool cutting edge stuff, or you could be a suited consultant plugging software components together on a customer site, or you could be buried in an obscure backwater maintaining 30 year old mainframe code.
I bet MS is the same. I even bet Google's approaching that stage: I've already read one Slashdotter refuting the statement that Google engineers can move projects any time no questions asked. Of course, if you're in the right bit of Google, it might appear that way.
So, look at the job, not the company. And, I agree with everyone who's mentioned location too.
Simple. Decide how much your soul is worth and if you can abide by Microsoft's new SRM (Soul Rights Management) as specified in their EULA (Eternal Underworld Lividity Agreement).
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Microsoft: fat applications installed on servers and clients
Google: mostly thin applications presented through a web browser
The chance that you will actually make a difference at Microsoft is a lot slimmer than at Google.
Now, line that up with your personal goals.
Go work at a ski area in the winter and something crazy at some tourist trap like Wisconsin Dells in the summer....have fun...party! Good grief you're what 22, 23? Nobody listens to anyone under 35 in corporations anyway. So f_ckem...
After a few years goofing off, check into rehab, take a couple refresher classes in you program language of choice, get a job, make some bucks, quit, goof off, and repete.
Life is short, don't waste it, live it.
You are smart...don't be a trick code monkey for the man.
Google has a campus in Kirkland as well. I'm not sure what sort of position you're applying for but from what I've seen, there are plenty of good jobs available to Google-hopefuls that are inclined to the higher lattitudes.
It is my understanding that Google employees are given around 25% of their time to research and develop new initiatives. If you are the type that enjoys taking on new tasks, coming up with new ideas, and are the inventor type of person, definitely go with Google. You really might find yourself making a difference if you came up with something new and impressive in this time, not to mention it is up to you to figure out what it is that you want to dedicate that time to. It is really hard to beat given free time for R&D and getting paid very well to do it. I do it in my spare time at home simply because I don't have time for it at work...
Development notes at http://devscribbles.blogspot.com
My e-penis is sooooooo big!
Hmm... job offers from a force for good, and a force for evil.
The force for good allows you to work on your own side-project 20% of your time. The force for evil enslaves you to a marketing department. The force for good has the motto "Do No Evil." The force for evil is, well, the source of most computer evil.
However.
I'd rather live in the Seattle area than Silicon Valley. And evil *is* more fun.
Dude, I'd say you're screwed. Fuck 'em both.
Accept the job at SCO.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
There are advantages to both. It all depends on whether or not you need to win in the end even though you finish last. Often, the evil guys have cooler uniforms. Being mean to kittens and your Grandma can relieve stress. If you have a strong conscience, though, you'll want to go with "good." Otherwise you'll spend your nights flopping around in bed in a cold sweat worrying about the inevitable day when you'll be forced to shield yourself from small arms fire behind the tiny, frail body of a sweet little girl and then one of the "good" guys will just completely ignore your shrill demands for $5 million and a Lear jet and just shoot you in the face and you'll look silly and be dead.
You're young, start your own company and then SELL it to Google or Microsoft.
Just choose one and get some real world experience already!!
Both jobs are going to be excellent jobs. At Google, you'll learn entrepreneurship and the latest engineering 'trends' plus being 'current' (aka cool). On the Micosoft side you'll learn how to keep a product line going as well as a formal company's "odds and ends" we all need to pick up to be successful (i.e. the business side, MS has been here for almost 30yrs, so something's working). MS will be a great case study for future business leaders (if you want to be the next Jerry Yang)
Either way, as long as you get some learned experience out of it, either job will be fine. You'll get out what you put in does apply on your 1st job--considering tech positions switch around every 3-5 yrs. Now you just need to figure out what lifestyle you want (SF=fast paced/hyped, Seattle=academic/quiet).
People who get pulled into the microsoft culture lose ethics or some numinous human trait similar to that. I live here in seattle and I have to say that the micrsofties are just unpleasnt shallow people to be around, and they weren't that way to start with. And of course I am going to get jumped on by every pro M$FT person in the world... but I have lost a bunch of friendships because the people who began working there really do sorta borg out into this sorta scientologist like "microsoft is god" drone creature.
Everything begins to become so clear when you work for them... they actually sorta remind me of przac drones or born agains... it's just depressing to see free thinking humans turn into these monoculture critters.
Not sure google is much better... but from what I have met, they seem to retain internal chaos better than people who live in redmond.
Besides... Redmond? either live in seattle deal with the WORST traffic you have ever seen in a city that actively undercuts it's public transportation with more skill than the bigdiggites... or live in Redmond... yawn capitol of the universe... I mean.. Tatooine is like the big apple compared to Redmond... go hang out in "Redmond Town Square" for 10 minutes... if you don't run to the airport screaming... well... maybee you belong in redmond... and hey... while you are running to the airport... do it at rush hour so you can see congestion that makes an LA commute look like a drive through the midwest at midnight.
Redmond sucks, Microsoft is a dead end road to domesticity and traffic jams.
Live life, go where you can grow. Google is wierd and innovative. And they don't have a BalmerApe to embarrass you.
Don't worry about it - by the time you graduate they will be the same (Evil®) company.
He can take either job and do well. He's right out of school so will be learning a ton on the job wherever he goes. Both companies have great technology and treat their employees pretty well in terms of work lifestyle, equipment, food, etc. Both companies look good on the resume.
Microsoft will respect someone who has Google experience, and Google tries to hire Microsofties, so he could probably work at one place and then switch to the other later on.
After getting some solid experience in the real world, working on teams, learning lots of stuff, he may want to move to a smaller company to experience a more entrepreneurial flavor, and from there he can start his own company or get into a consulting venture of some sort.
Ah, to be young and just starting out!
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
You suck! I want a job at MS or Google! I want to move to Bay Area or Seattle (but Seattle is better), but from what I have heard from friends working at MS, things are not as great as they thought (I mean comparing to the rest of us, their condition is still way better) but I don't have the good fortune to know anyone working for google. But now, think like this.. ..
MS is a mature company with a large number of employees and considerable corporate culture. While google is still at a stage of relative youth with smaller number of staff. So in term of growth, I think you get ahead faster in google comparing to MS. But again, this is strictly an opinion from experiences with other major corporations.
You can most definitely have a life outside work at Google. Yes, work can be demanding -- but that's what makes it fun (especially if you like to be challenged). But "work will be your life"? Not by a long shot. That's a complete myth.
Yeah, you definitely see people in the office late at night and on weekends. I've put in my fair share of long weeks, worked a couple weekends straight, etc. But that was because the work needed to be done, not because someone was behind me cracking the whip, or it would look bad if I wasn't there or whatever.
If you need to put in some extra time, then you can. If you want to work a normal week, then you can. It's all results-based, not time based. A lot of the younger folks, or those new to the area, tend to work longer hours. But us oldish guys with families and stuff? We work as much as we need to.
It was worse at my last job, a place that is known for being very laid-back. When I left after four years, I found I had only taken like 9 days vacation. I used to keep a cot and sleeping bag in my office. Not anymore. Last month, I took 17 days off to travel to various countries in Europe. I'm working all next week at a remote engineering office, just because I can (and I want to see my sister). They really encourage you to take your vacation time. I've traveled more in the past two years then the ten previous.
I have no idea what the work is like at MS, but at Google, engineers are expected to be able to budget their own time, and set their own goals. Yeah, your manager will go over your goals with you, and if you've bitten off too much you guys will probably talk about it, but they'll let you reach if you want to. They also let you set realistic expectations for yourself, sort of a "I know I can get all X done, but I'm also going to try and get Y and maybe Z finished, too" kind of thing. But the hours you put in come from those goals you've set. Things can come up that mean you have to put in extra time or whatever, but there's absolutely no slave driving there. You basically set your own hours since you're the one that has to get the work done.
As far as the perks and food and such, well, I've been there a while now, and I'm continuously amazed at how well they treat their engineers (and other employees). They just opened a juice and smoothy bar for crying out loud. Last Wednesday, we had a Hawaiian Luau for lunch, complete with a roasted pig in the ground and everything.
Actually, the thing that appeals to me most is that the structure there is flat enough that if you have a cool idea, it can bubble up to the senior mgmt level very quickly. You can also check out everyone else's work, and if you see something you like, you can contribute. I was searching for a library the other day and got off on a rabbit trail that had me a couple hours later checking in a few hundred line changelist to this guy's part-time project. I may end up helping on a more formal basis. Did I get in trouble for goofing off? Far from it. Pitching in like that is rewarded (and rewarding). I'll work a few extra hours for that kind of satisfaction.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
I don't know if the programmers, IT people, and other techs should be complaining about the hours. In finance, law, biomedical research, and medicine, the hours are often far far worse. For example... I put in 9am-10pm every day (often 9am-12am)... and 12pm-6pm both weekend days... and get crap if I don't work 7 days a week. That comes out to 80+ hours per week... every week... with no vacations.
Although I've never worked for either company, I can give the perspective of a courier delivery driver who has had to make deliveries to Microsoft employees on occasion. From my experience in this limited capacity, Microsoft is by far the most bureaucratic company that I've ever had to deal with. At every other company, security guards will sign for packages that need to be delivered to employees. At Microsoft, security guards will never sign for a package, even if the employee is out to lunch or otherwise unavailable. While this point may be relatively insignificant, little things count for what they show about overall attitude. In my experience, bureaucracy has been the thing I've always hated most about every job I've ever had. Bureaucracy = lack of respect for employees. If you have a choice between two jobs, find out which company has the most and the least bureaucracy, and from that you know which company has the most and the least respect for employees.
I'd just like to say that if you're a talented enough programmer to be invited to employment at both Google and Microsoft...and still manage a coherent paragraph of grammatically correct English...I humbly bow to my new overlord.
Choose.... wisely....
I will forever be a student.
The Google office up here is nice, but small... and targeted for specific purposes. I don't think everyone can just work where they want, you'll want to ask what your options are (maybe they've changed it recently). As for Microsoft, my honest advice is "it really depends." If you're being offered to work on a product team, or have a sense you will be on a product team relatively soon, go for it. You will be treated really well if you're on one of those. However, if you're going to be working on some internal projects... eh! You shouldn't make your decision on "which company," but what do each have to offer you. Which position will give you the most growth? Which position will give you an edge for the rest of your career?
I work for Google, and there *are* some people who work insane hours every days, but that's not really typical. In Mountain View, a large percentage of the population leaves around 5 or 6. Sure, some people work late every day, but they're usually the same people who arrive late every day. Google isn't really the sort of place that values Spending A Lot Of Time At The Office. People are judged by what they've accomplished, not how many hours they were around looking busy.
:-).
If anything, the problem with Google is that there's *so* much cool stuff going on--you know, if you have a bit of free time, then the temptation to work on cool project AAA or BBB can be hard to resist
Most of my Microsoft friends work longer hours then I do, but I can't claim that they're a representative sample.
As for the Seattle vs The Bay Area debate--you do know that both companies have offices practically right next to each other in both areas, don't you? MS's Silicon Valley campus is under 3 minutes from Google, and our Kirkland office is probably only 5 minutes from MS on a good traffic day. I work in Kirkland, it's a nice office, and we have a lot of fresh college grads from around the country. If location matters, then talk to your recruiter (for either company), and I suspect they can work something out.
All things considered, I suspect that the original poster would be happier at Google, but I'm kind of biased.
Well Forth folks do Reverse Polish Moderation... or as we like to commonly call it: RPM
I work at Google's engineering office in NYC. We are hundreds strong and work on core projects, so there is some choice. Google has a philosophy that you should hire people where they want to work. So we have engineering operations in Boston, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Bangalore, Brazil, ... New York is the largest outside of Mountain View, though. I wouldn't give up living here for anything.
As far as being at work all the time at Google, it doesn't happen. You can't even schedule a meeting before 10:30 because people won't be in yet. Management is practically non-existent so nobody is clocking your time as long as you are getting your work done. We also tend to have work hour outings designed to make shy programmers interact. So we'll spend a day at Coney Island or go on a scavenger hunt.
It is definitely true that I spend more time with coworkers and sometimes technical topics come up. But that is because I like the people I work with, and technical topics are fun. We tend to discuss things like how much bandwidth you could get overnighting hard drives, and what sort of latency a data center on an aircraft carrier would have.
Google is a great place to work.
I know this might not be high on your list, but keep in mind the cost of living in both of those areas. Bayarea is expensive as fook. Even with a super nice salary, you are gonna be broke.
... if it was up to me, I would go google without a doubt.
Now on another note. Google gives you 1 day a week to work on projects you think would benefit the company. Which I think is a very cool idea.
I am not gonna repeat the same crap people put before me
until (succeed) try { again(); }
Go to work for Microsoft, then leave when Google re-extends their offer. Watch out for chairs as you leave.
You should think about where each position could take. Is the MS job a dead end? Does the G job move you out of your preferred area of expertise? That's what I had to do when choosing between IBM, ATI and a government job. My solution was to start my own company, which I don't recommend as it is darn tough.
Stupid title. Stupid icon. Why the hell is this front page news?
Umm.. I like where I work but I do NOT put in anymore work than what I am paid for. Putting in 4,5+ extra hours a week because it is "fun" does not put any more food on the table and keeps you away from family longer.
This assumes you have a family.
I'm not being facetious. Most people right out of college don't have one, and to be honest, going home to an empty house/apartment can be a lot less attractive than putting in a few more hours at the office, if it's fun and interesting work.
When I got out of college and was looking for a first job, I looked for something that was going to be fun, interesting, and expose me to a good community atmosphere (and give me a fat paycheck, that was a major concern at that point, too) -- if that meant I had to work 50 or 60 hours a week, fine. I didn't have any other responsibilities at the time; "work hard, play hard" sounded like a good time. (And it was, actually.)
There aren't a whole lot of times in most people's lives when you can just throw yourself into work, the time right after college and before you get a family is one of them. If you can find work that you find really intellectually simulating and personally fulfulling, by all means, go for it. And if you end up eating copious amounts of chinese food and sleeping under your desk, at least you'll have interesting stories to talk about later.
You have a lifetime of boring 40-hour-a-week-and-come-home-for-dinner to look forward to; at least do something cool while you have the opportunity and lack of responsibilities.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I worked at the google campus. I was never hired by Google, but was outsourced by them to do some work for a few months. From what I saw, Google is very laid back. You hours arent set. If you feel like it, you can show up at 1pm and work till whenever. Or come in at 6am.
It seemed like thier employees spent more time there than a normal job, but it wasnt like a normal job where you go to work, to work. They went to work, to work, but also to socialize, etc. People might work on something for a few hours, then visit some friends, get something to eat, work out, then come back to work.
Seemed like a great place to work, if you enjoy that. Now if you have family commitments and want to have the assurance that you WILL be out of there at a certain time, I might look more closely at Microsoft.
I fretted over my first job out of college, finally accepted an offer and quit 5 months later. it took me that long to figure out that the money doesn't matter, its all about the challenge of the work. if you don't find the work interesting, you won't be happy.
(6 yrs later, i now work for myself, making less than ever, and am happier than i've ever been)
Common misconception. Jealously is about losing something you have. *Envy* is about wanting what others have. While not my strongest attempt at irony, I stand by the notion that the only thing to be gained by posting such a silly question to slashdot is an ego stroke. Anyone treating a matter like this with the seriousness it deserves would not be posting about it on a web site with the signal-to-noise ratio of interstellar space. For proof of this re-read this post.
anyway the money will come from the same place :-)
lucm, indeed.
Actually, at this point, Google would probably look just as good on a CV as Microsoft. Five years ago, Google might have been just another Web company, but these days it's as big a name as IBM or Microsoft. And it also has a reputation for hiring lots of really smart people who are doing great things; if you worked at Google, that's a big positive stamp of association right there.
Microsoft used to have that reputation of hiring lots of smart people, but its products are also the ones people love to hate, so it's not clear if the lots of smart people did any good. Google not only has the smart people, but the flexible culture to use them well.
I have worked at both companies as a contractor, and know many employees of both. Microsoft is definately in a beautiful place, but the way they treat there employees doesn't compare to Google. Google is located in the tech heart of the nation, once you have some kids you may realize it is hard to move for a job. Microsoft, while not the only game in town, generally requires moving to leave. This shows up in their perks, salaries, raises, stock benefits, bonuses, and lifestyle. I know people at both companies who spend minimal time and who work over 60 hours a week. One other factor is how having "worked at Microsoft" looks on a resume. Any tech company will at least interview you if you have some relevant experience "at Microsoft", someday Google may have that reputation, but it takes decades to get there.
One simple example of the difference, every Google person whose office I have visited has two 24" high end Dell flat panel displays on their computer. I know Microserfs who squint at 17" CRTs.
Another interesting and unexpected difference is how Google & Microsoft compare when treating bloggers, Microsoft is a more open community & culture (SURPRISE!!) - Google even encourages employees to publish their blog posts internally for review.
All that said, Google would be my choice, if I could stand living in Mountain View. There are shuttles from places that are much more comfortable, but working on a van isn't much fun.
Microsoft is especially good for those who live nearby. The salaries are fine, but total compensation - and certainly day to day treatment isn't as good as Google. The people don't seem as generally happy.
Also, you are choosing between two good options, you're in a great position.
He told me the reason he quit was that Microsoft is no longer the company it used to be... while it was a very dynamic and efficient place to work, the last 3-5 years have seen it become very political, with people fighting to clamber over each other, and folks more inetrested in the rat race than in developing great technology. It does show in their stock price, which has been flat for the last six years, and has underperformed even a broad-based index like the S&P 500. It depends on what kind of position you're seeking... if its a managerial level position, then by all means go to Microsoft, but if you're a developer, I'd pick Google. And oh, the weather in the bay area is much better, too! :-)
I work at Microsoft and have been here for over 10 years as a developer.
There is more to consider than the company. The group that you work for and the city that you live in will have a larger impact on your life.
There has been some concern over hours. At Microsoft you work the hours necessary to get your job done. If you are efficient this should be 8 hour days. I typically work from 7:30 to 4:30 and many of my coworkers work from 9:30 to 6 or so. During crunch times the days get a little longer, but they shouldn't get much longer. Of course this will differ depending on the group. Some people like the environment here and will work longer hours, but that isn't required.
I'd think for a long time about the two areas, and perhaps visit both again if you have a chance. I've spent time in both and would much rather live in Seattle than the Bay Area, but others will disagree. The Seattle area has much cheaper housing. If you want to live in the city instead of suburbs it is more practical to live in Seattle and commute to Redmond than to live in San Francisco and commute to Silicon Valley. Both have excellent outdoor recreational activities (hiking, cycling, skiing, etc).
It sounds like you have two great options.
if someone slapped those offers on my desk (not that they would, that'd be mad) i'd go for google, mostly based on what i have heard here (on slashdot through he last few months). without question.
Don't forget about non-competitive agreements, some companies will assure that you never work for anybody else in a remotely related area. Dont forget about Microsoft taking some defectors to court for everything they ever paid them. I don't know about Googles contract, but I would take the least restrictive one. Also consider intellectual property issues. Some companies can take your rights to any code you produce, even if its in your own time, at home. Others simply can take code related to your job tasks. Some can do this for 6 months after you quit, and other can do it for 6 years after you quit. Take the least restrictive one, at least it leaves you with a practical exit stratagy if you don't like it there. Another reason to go with a small company. They usually dont make you sign away as much, and also dont have the full time lawyers/will to sue the crap out of you and often dont have as stringent of agreement in the first place.
Unless you are an ACE programmer,
with several outstanding programs
already in the wild, Open Source
or otherwise, I would go with
Microsoft.
Google is looking for talent and
they seem to have plenty. It would
be more difficult to stand out in
their environment. Microsoft has
some talented programmers, do not
get me wrong, BUT Microsoft SEEMS
not to really care about product
quality.
Just my 2 cents worth. No I do NOT
program, unless you consider IBM 360
assembler, programming. I do not.
Go for Microsoft.
Why choose the lesser of two evils when you can have the best?
Seriously, Google will let you make contributions to projects that matter more to society than their bottom line more than Microsoft will. Of course, You may not give a rat's ass about society.
...can I have the other one?
First post! (just in case I am...)
Don't choose the company that has no respect for the privacy of the people using its free email service.
lucm, indeed.
I haven't seen anyone say it yet so I will. Congratz on graduating and receiving job offers from both Google and Microsoft. As for the problem at hand, it's your decision to make. The /. community can say "this" and tell you "that" but it's ultimately up to you and what you think is best.
I don't believe this person. It seems way too "set up".
If you have to ask this question, then you obviously belong at Microsoft.
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In Portland we call the two seasons
1) Winter
and
2) Construction
... I think that technoligsts that work for Google will quickly find that they are ultimately driven by the bottom-line adverstising revenue. I don't see Google being succussful in any business model but selling ads - they do that well however. If advertising as a business model gets you going, I would go Google, if you see broad use of technology getting you excited, I would go MS.
I wish I had your problems :)
However, I will tell you this:
I have known three people who worked at Microsoft, some better than others, and only one liked his job, the others tended to use phrases like "slave drivers" and "sweat shop".
I have known only 2 people who worked at Google, and both loved their jobs.
The question you really have to ask, sicne you have such great opportunities, is this:
Given the reputation and actions of each company, which is the type of company you wish to work for?
when can i finally moderate slashdot stories?!
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It's a simple matter of subject/verb agreement, and the American style is correct. "Google" and "Microsoft" are called "collective nouns", meaning that they refer to a single entity which is composed of multiple individuals. However, the fact that a group, by definition, has more than one person, does not mean it is proper to use the plural verb form when referring to the group as a whole.
"Google is doing something" is the proper phrasing when the noun refers to Google as a company. Google is one company, a single grouping.
British English is completely incorrect here, and for the record, this extends to "The band are playing" and "Arsenal suck".
If you're still not convinced, consider this exchange:
"Google are planning a new project."
"Oh, it are?"
Sounds wrong, doesn't it? Now, perhaps you would argue that it could be phrased "Oh, they are?" except this would be highly ambiguous -- who are "they"? Every single person at Google? Just the upper management or executives? The technicians? The janitors?
The answer, of course, is that it's not limited to any particular person or persons -- it is the company as a unified collective which is planning the project, and therefore, the singular verb should be used.
Next up, the British obsession over archaic ligatures. "Foetus", my ass.
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I don't know about Google, but I know what my groups were like at MS. MS is very political, if you are a person that can value getting people to like you over actual results, the MS can offer a lot in upward mobility, although getting results has some impact now always as much as you would like. I think this is more true in larger companies in general but Google might be a little better on the results side is my guess.
If you are a results based person it can get frustrating at times. I learned a lot there and very much value that. The company I work for built a asp.net product MS aquired and so I went to help support and enhance it. For 8 years and through out this time as a contractor for MS, I have worked for a 100 person company that my job satisfaction was so much higher the MS employees you can't compare, and salaries have been a little better also. I have since convinced my great full time MS boss to come to our company. Now MS looks great on a Resume / CV as some suggest, and the abundance of money is mind blowing. "Ok spend the next month working on that web page..." Not a bad place to spend some years but have an exit strategy in mind, put some of those $ away...
Since, being offered this choice, you're even considering Microsoft - I don't think you would fit in at Google.
Exactly. Would you rather be a gDeveloper? Or a Developer, Developer, Developer, Developer?
Different developers get different things from working. One of the most insightful things I've seen about Google's attitude about its employees is that they basically treat them as rockstars in order to make advertising money. Personally, I'd love a 20% program at work. On the other hand, Microsoft is very stable ATM, and weathered the last web boom and bust with very little disturbance.
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This whole "god vs evil" thing is a load of crap. I know a lot of people who work for MS and a lot of people who work for Google. On either side you have your good and your bad. Both are companies. Both are very tough companies with very unrealistic demands at times. Go with the one that offered you the best deal. From what I hear, MS pays better and treats their employees like gold. Google pays **** and gives you free food and a bunch of tshirts.
Oh yeah, there's one thing you'll get from Google that you won't from Microsoft. An inflated sense of self. Nothing makes you feel better than everyone else than working for a company that's the antithesis of evil, right?
Mods: i'd rather be called a troll for this than humerous. please don't rate it funny. i stand by every word.
then seriously, you'll probably be a better fit at Microsoft.
Go with Microsoft. In a little while, when Google hunts you down, you can quit Microsoft and let us know if Steve's chair throwing is for real and what kind of distance he gets.
Clif;
;)
I think if you have been offered opportunities to work at two of the thre best places to work (i tnk woring at apple is a hoot! but that is me...) I also dont know where you are based ad what is your economy, but if I were in your position, i would make sure to interview myself on both and visit their respective campus. I would also take some time to chec out the local areas for living and even ask them for references of where to live.
In the end your decision should be made based on the following:
1. your expertise...
2. what would you like to specialize on
3. where do you see yourself in the next 10 years
4. salary
5. cost of living
6. your goals in life (work for 10 years then mariage, etc.)
In the end go where you will be happier and you can gain the most of what i mentioned above.
Goodluck!
Kildjean
PS. whatever u do , dont tell ballmer you are getting scoped by google
Nom de dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d encule de ta mere.
I would take a hard look at who is going to be managing you at your new place of employment. I've been lucky to have good managers. If you don't know who your manager is going to be, I'd be more then a little worried. The first week of my first job after graduation, my new manager decides to leave the company. For 6 months I had no manager and no responsibility. I could feel the rust sinking in. Luckily I ended up doing the 3 year development project that I was initially hired to do.
You're so smart! ... Come on you know he wants to hear it!
Sounds like you need a better job.
But if you like it, don't criticize others for not enjoying long hours. It is a personal preference.
The whole "you have no right to complain because I do X more" is crap. He or I or whoever has ever right to complain if they are in a position requried to do something they don't want to do it. You do, however, have a right to criticize if that person is exposed to the situation for a long time and does nothing about it.
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
If you're concerned about morality, I've heard it said that Google makes most of its money from advertising that appears with pornography searches. I don't say that Microsoft is perfect -I'm sure they're far from it- but do with the unfounded information what you will. In any case, I'm sure Google makes a lot of money off of pornography. And that in addition to censoring their content in China, but again, I don't know too much about Microsoft aside from their anti-competitive business practices.
People change jobs, what, 5 times on average? You're young, pick what you think will be the most fun. Chances are, 10 years from now, you'll be doing something different anyway.
Work at MS and work with third-rate hacks who have no pride in their work, or...well, basically anywhere else. If you ARE a third-rate hack who doesn't care about their work then go for MS everytime.
I appreciate the question, and having lived in Brazil for two years, I can say without reservation that Brazilians are much nicer, friendlier, and more beautiful than Italian$. Italian$ just like to work overtime, have a nasty corporate culture, and are always trying to take over the world.
And mine won't be any different, but at least I'll make a point I keep not seeing. Who says you have to work in the Bay area for Google? Google has offices all over the world, and a lot of people I recently helped get jobs there are in NY or Atlanta. I don't know firsthand about MS, but I imagine not everyone is in Redmond. For that matter, Google's there too. It's not just about the company, it's about what you do. And what you might want to do in the future. It might appeal to you that at Google your products are used and that if you decide you want to work with another group that's what you get to do, and not in several months either. I've never heard anyone at MS talk about that sort of thing and I am sure they would. Remember that these days, people also don't work at the same company for 40 years and retire and neither of those companies expects it of you. Be open to change in the next 5 years. The fact that you have offers from both of these places means you'll have offers from plenty of other places if you look for them too, now or later.
I always got the impression they were hard workers and everyone there was burned out.
I think you're thinking of Apple.
My $0.02:
It's my understanding that Google encourages its engineers to devote a certain percentage of their time on projects of their own choosing. Microsoft does not, but they're safer. If you're someone who can handle risk and likes to take time to play around with inventions, choose Google. If you're someone who wants to identify with a secure job in an established company, choose Microsoft.
That being stated, it's worth spending a few days in both the Bay area and the Seattle area to see which one is more livable. Seatle, (as far as I know,) has a better girl/guy ratio... But this week I saw a kick-ass Roger Waters concert a stone's throw away from Google's campus.
No, I will not work for your startup
Google should be your choice. It is up and coming, growing, as opportunites in almost every branch of computers, and has better moral.
Life factor:
Redmond area is cheaper.
Google give you time for your own projects.
MS demands you spend a majority of your time there, even if you aren't really accomplishing much. i.e. time in the seat is a bigger factor then productivity.
Career Factors:
Google is more impressive on a resume the MS.
As always, money tempers all these factors.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I had a similar dilemma after the dot com bust...
McDonalds or Burger King?
"Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the f-ing Peace Corps." - John 'Bluto' Blutarsky
I would give my left nut to work for Google!! Even if you only work there for a few years, it will catapult your career in no time. I wish I had the knowledge, and the guts to do it myself. Good luck man! Steve
Steve
Go where you will enjoy yourself most...Google
You want your job to be fun and from what Ive seen Google has more to offer.
Right down the street from Google in fact in Mountain View. I drive past both of the campuses almost everyday. I would imagine the submitter got offers from Google, and for the MS campus here in Mountain View.
It doesn't really matter if the job offers are for mangerial, secretarial, or even janitorial duties. If its programming or network maintenance, I think I'd rather be associated with Google.
Choose the company that promotes intrapreneurship.
Slashdot = Sarcasm
On the "life factor" note...don't compare just the cost of living, without also factoring in your commute time. Seattle and Redmond area housing cost is highly location dependent, but drops off quickly with distance from the core. It is quite possible to get a decent affordable house (when compared to SF) and still keep your commute under an hour.
Example, my wife does Shoreline (north Seattle area) to Redmond every day. It varies from 35 mins to 2 hours depending on traffic. Not great, but we have an affordable house in a nice neighborhood.
Her carpool buddy just moved from SF, where his commute was often over 3 hours, for a shorter distance driven, from an overpriced condo. He thinks he's in heaven now in Seattle by comparison.
----- And all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks, with one word...UNLESS.
Wow, that's a lot of FUD there (go figure). I work at MS and I don't think I've ever had to "dodge flying chairs".
I haven't read the earlier books regarding MS culture, but I can tell you that if they were true, then times have certainly changed. Or maybe it's just an indication that the group that I work in has been "fortunate". I haven't worked 60-hour continuous work weeks, nor does anyone else here does, and nor do many of the people that I've talked to. Political battles? Sure, at times, but I wouldn't call it "never ending". (And MS is not the only place where I've worked with those type of battles, I reckon any larger-size company is going to have them)
Re-orgs, that may have some truth in. But again, it really depends on where you work. I've heard of many groups going through "re-orgs" and then it's gone, with all the folks being given opportunities to look elsewhere within the company. But I've gone through several re-orgs where it really does help the group (and no, people don't lose jobs), and people are satisfied with how it worked out. Again, I would have to imagine other larger companies go through similar phases as well.
Finally as for the "insane culture", that might be true
I have heard stories about the "old days" from my bosses, who have been in MS far longer than I have. In some ways, it's exciting because that's when MS was still new, the stock was soaring, etc. But there WERE lots of work-life balance problems, and many people really getting disgruntled by "the grind" (which explains why so many people left and retired, as the stock started settling). The MS nowadays is a lot "softer" (which ironically, some of the older folks dislike), which I vastly prefer.
-- jchenx
I came from Seattle and a big group of us worked at MSFT over the years. EVeryone really smart and GOOD that I knew, from kernel dev to proj mgmt has since left Macroswift, everyone got bored and stagnated...they all gave up big bucks too. The only guys I know left now are east coast ivy league guys, all proj mgmt...who still work there, and they're not totally in love with it either, but they were a different crowd to the other west coast and european programmers bunch...hence bigger aholes only looking to drive the stock price and profitability.
Excellent point. I'm in training for CERT at a local fire station. The emphasis is Earthquake, Earthquake, Earthquake. There's the Cascadia fault (with a looming monster subduction quake) and the Seattle fault which isn't so bad, because it runs right by Microsoft.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
whoosh?
Actually, I didn't know that there was such a strong distinction between jealousy and envy... so you kinda defeat your own point by demonstrating that there *is* some signal to be had in /.
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
Seattle is mostly safe from a major Rainier eruption. Some of the southeastern suburbs/exurbs are. For example, Orting is totally doomed. Property values there are stagnant. Puyallup and Tacoma won't fare too well either. But Seattle proper is not in danger of lava or lahar.
:) Please stay away! It's for your own good! :)
Luckily, I live near the top of a big hill near Woodinville... I will have no problem from Rainier (except ash, I guess).
We do have the occasional earthquake. I was here for the one in (2000?)... it was actually pretty fun in my opinion. I was on the second floor of my office building, I looked out the window, and I swear that I saw a wave ripple across the ground. But I'd have to say that the earthquake danger has got to be far lower than the Bay Area.
Traffic sucks in general, especially 520. But it's not as bad as Houston near the Galleria, for one.
And yes, it rains ALL THE TIME, year-round. Everybody here hates it, nobody should ever want to move here, it's so depressing, and there are no hot chicks anywhere.
Alot of the replies are apparently under the false impression that there is only one place to work for google. Thats simply not true as I'm sure its not true of microsoft. Looking at google's jobs page shows locations in australia, Brazil, China, Europe, India, Canada and the US. Also according to google recruiters, the company encourages you to up and move to different locations every year or two if you so desire, as well as simply visiting other locations.
...if you feel the need to ask then you shouldn't work at either. Good Luck, dude.
I wasn't criticizing anyone. I was just saying that it gets a lot worse than 60 hours a week.
Whether it's fortunate or not, it seems that long hours are becoming the trend in any industry where a person can consider themselves midly successful.
I would think that cleaning toilets at either place would be just as dirty. caca is caca my friend. Google right now is what Microsoft used to be, Google will eventually get to be what Microsoft is now. mark my words, its inevitable. But since Google is in the 'good phase' of company growth, i'd pick them at the moment.
sigs suck
The premise of this post gives me cause for concern.
I happen to know both Google and Microsoft, and also happen to know that niether company just "offers" you a job. There's probably more to it if the post is true. What I'm interested in hearing about are the details relating to how he managed to get an offer from both at the same time.
I would say, go Google, better company, generally not evil unless it relates to money.
And their cafeteria food is better than both Microsoft's and Intel's.
Look, friend, you've already hit the jackpot. Now, you're just trying to decide how to spend the money. If you're good enough to get both offers, you'll do well at either. I would give some thought to Google's style vs Microsoft's, particularly in the realm of Google's embrace of individual research time, and Microsoft's fascinating processes and procedures. Also, how important is it to ship? Depending on the group of which you are a member (in either company), there are probably a ton of variables in the decision. I'd probably end up comparing the specific opportunities, in terms of job responsibilities and working environment. I probably would not make the decision based on the company.
Either way, welcome, cheers, and good luck!
Paper Pusher
Any company worth their weight will negotiate with employees. You may have to prove that you are dedicated to the success of the company. But after that, you should be able to negotiate with any employer. With any entry level position (even if you are being paid a lot) you will have to merge yourself into the culture of the company. That takes time and energy. Make sure the company is one that you agree with philosophically and pragmatically. This will ease your transition and make you move valuable to the company. Once your supervisor sees your value, you should be able to negotiate hours, pay benefits etc. Good luck!
Only those starting in finance, law, biomedical, and certain MDs are the hours worse. Over all, the hours at all of those jobs are far better. And I have worked in Biomedical research (C.D.C and several DARPA grants), CS research (Watson lab, Bell labs, and USWest AT), medicine (EMT, EKG, MedTech ), AND straight coding (numerous contract positions). And I can tell you that in the CS world, there is a LOT more stress and a lot longer hours (I just got done working 9 months of 60-100 hrs/week while selling house/moving and having a child). I never had this much stress in any of the jobs (well, the EKG job was stressful at times, but well worth it).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
So this is going to be odd advice as my experience is most likely somewhat abnormal. I currently work at microsoft, and it's been a *horrible* experience. The company that I work(ed) at was aquired by MS and we were brought up to redmond. Pretty much everyone else on our team has had a horrible experience and we're all just waiting for our two years to be over so we can collect our bonuses and walk. That said, however -- everyone else here, outside of our team, loves it. We have a pool table, xboxes, early access to cool technology - like the q? I had one way before they were on the market, tons of little perks like that. It seems like we were just in a weird place when we were aquired and we didn't have the right management team in place. That combined with letting go too many people made it abysmal. As I said, however, everyone else loves it. People here do get to work on cool things. There is some frustration, just like anywhere else. You'll be sitting on the bus (free, with wireless, to seattle) and hear people bitching about not being allowed to add things they want & fix stupid things w/ vista, etc. There's much more acceptance of linux here than I expected, and respect for other technologies & viewpoints.
Also, there are a few people who have come over from google to work @MS. I don't think it's an "either-or" question. Look at whichever one will let you work on things you find more interesting, and which one pays you the most money, adjusted for where you're going to be living. Then, work there for a couple years, learn everything you can, and then try the other one out.
I totally disagree with your here. MS is for the most part like hundreds of little start ups. Even within the large monoliths like Windows each aspect of the OS has their own management and heirarchy. Get it on a new feature and you can find yourself rising up the ranks real fast.
I understand that at Google the motivation to work comes from you, not from the management (at least, not directly), but if that still translates into the same work hours, then maybe life at MS is better.
Basically, how many engineers at Google really do keep regular hours all the time ? I'd like to know the answer, just to satisfy my curiosity.
>|<*:=
MS is a huge legacy goliath that has nowhere to go but down, and is long past its prime. MS is on its way down (yes, it has a very long way to go, but go it will). It has a huge marketshare, becuase it does everything it can to avoid letting anyone make a choice, including doing its best to prevent people from even knowing there is a choice. There are millions of people who only use MS becuase they have no choice.
Google is a fast growing, nimble, newer company that has nowhere to go but *up*. Quite a few notable persons have *LEFT* MS to join Google. No one is forced to use Google (and Im pretty sure Google wouldnt consider it fair to try to so force anyone), and yet millions choose to do so of their own accord.
The above is absolutely right. You don't go to work for "Microsoft", you go to work for a particular group, which can range from fascinating and educational down to so toxic you'll reach for a lawyer.
So its an answer that you should arrive at pretty quickly once you frame your questions right!
BTW, I'm research oriented, faced with same situation I'd have traded the offer from both Microsoft and Google to getting an offer at Microsoft Research (or second choice: SUN Research division)!
- Akhilesh
- mritunjai
http://minimsft.blogspot.com/
It's an insider blog by an anonymous MS employee. It draws a lot of comments from other MS employees (and trolls from Slashdot) and provides a unique window into the company.
Maybe I'm naive, but my impression from the blog is that things seem pretty Machiavellian in MS. For instance, in performance reviews, you are pooled with your co-workers and ranked against each other. This determines compensation levels, future advancement opportunities, etc. Even meeting your personal goals for the year may not help you escape a poor review.
Corporate culture can be infuriating and heartbreaking. Read Mini-Microsoft carefully for context, then get more information from people who work there.
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
I don't know you. I don't know working at Google. (The rumors sound good, but I haven't checked them out.)
It's not that your crazy not to go with Google. You might not be a good fit.
It's that you ARE crazy to go with Microsoft.
I'm sorry, but I can't count of MS as either a good place to work OR a secure job. It's one of the few companies that has been busted by the feds for abusing their computer personnel. Now partially this is because they're the biggest, and partially it's because they used stocks to pay them. But mainly it's that they wanted to avoid paying benefits. They wanted to refuse to honor an agreement that they were still using to pull people in to work at MS. You might think a bit about what that implies about both the corporate culture and how you'll actually be treated if you accept that job. (I.e., not only can you not trust the salesman's promises, you can't even trust what was agreed to and signed for. They'll hold *you* to every implied letter on the agreement, and a few more, but don't expect them to honor the deal without a legal fight that you won't be able to afford.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
i have a friend at google, a higher-up engineer -type.
he puts in long hours during the week, but he rarely seems to have anything to do w/ the job over the weekend, so i wouldn't buy the idea that "you'll have no life outside of google"
> Am I crazy not to go with Google?
Yes.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Looking at some of the videos, why wouldn't you want to join such a team of passionate people ? It all depends on your own goals, motivation and energy if this can become a reality. Both companies have great people, but I think Microsoft covers a wider range of technologies. Good Luck to you.
A Friend
I don't feel that I'm pressured, subtly or otherwise, to work long hours at Google. I have a life, many hobbies, etc. I do sometimes work long hours, but it's because I want to. I like my job, my project is exciting, and I like getting things done. I know lots of folks who have families and head home sixish to have dinner with them [and don't come back until morning]. As long as you're getting a reasonable amount of stuff done, your time is your own. And I do mean reasonable--I've never been asked to do so much that I'd be forced to work long hours. I have on occasion volunteered to do something too big, not realizing how hard it would be, but that came from me, not from outside.
Regarding tiny little Google's stability: we're not so tiny any more. That's got plusses and minuses, of course, but it does mean that we're not going under in the next few years. We've got over 8000 employees now [from what I recall of our last public statement]. We have a nice cash reserve that could support the company for years if we stopped making any money whatsoever tomorrow. I'm not saying the company is invulnerable; no company is. But the original poster is young, in a great time to take risks. Heck, Google might not even be risky enough for him/her at this point.
I work at Google, but I don't speak for it in any official capacity whatsoever.
Read Corporate Confidential from Cynthia Shapiro. Let that be the first advice from someone who's been programming for 10+ years. Regardless of where you go, you will find out that it is not the technical aspects of your work that get in the way. It will always come down to interpersonal relationships between you, your fellow programmers and most importantly your boss and his boss, and everyone else up to the last visible person on the management chain.
If I can send you away with one, and only ONE simple rule into _ANY_ corporation (or I suppose this is true of life in general, but especially true in corporations) - whatever it is you do for your employer - you absolutely, positively, imperatively, MUST make whatever it is you are doing LOOK GOOD!!
I know this is going to sound trite, or trivial - you're probably thinking to yourself, "shit, I know my quicksorts, hashmaps, perl,lisp, C++, ruby, java, whatever framework/language, I can code well, that's all it should take to make it look good, just 'do my job'". Well, mon ami, as soon as you walk into the Microsofts and Googles of the world, you will come to a sobering realization that it wasn't only you who could program circles around the average schmuck, and that there are 500+ (just an example) others with the same title as you in both of those companies that are anxiously awaiting your arrival so they can exploit you, make you seemingly feel good about what you do, and then give you a shitty review after you've buster your ass the first year or two trying to get somewhere.
You don't believe me? You should check out Mini-Microsoft's Blog before you join up Microsoft. You should see what happens in there to people with lots of expectations for their "hard work". The kind of apathy, desperation and ill will that blog generates is enough to make me want to rethink that the most depressing movie I ever saw was Leaving Las Vegas or the Pianist or Schindler's List (and those masterpieces of film are all depressing - Figgis, Polanski, Spielberg, respectively, directed them to perfection).
Google can't be far off with their overinflated stock price and ridiculous market cap and a shitload of paper millionaire tigers. They obviously did learn from the mistakes of others, so you will read stuff like "20% of your time can be spent on whatever you want", and work-life balance - but I call bullshit on that anyway. You have 20% (or more) of your time available at night or after work - how much do you think you can accomplish in 20% of the time? If anything, that 20% will be used as an idea mill for Google so that they can create the next G-wonder.com. You'll be lucky if you get an honorable mention if they use your idea, let alone some stock or options....
People fail to understand, primarily because of egotistical reasons, secondary due to lack of experience in areas like economics, management, psychology, etc that corporations do not exist to make you feel good. In principle,they are no more forgiving than a Chinese Nike employer. You give them a finger -they will try and take your hand instead! But only if you _let_ them. What do I mean by _YOU_ ? Not you, you wet behind the ears college grad.... YOU in this instance is the collective consciousness of YOU and the other corporate minions.
So fucking what if the super-duper ultra geeky trio that runs google lucked out with the their search engine+pagerank and made billions with VC money in a super rich country that plunders the world? Do you think that means anything beyond just that - they got lucky! So can you, if you can come up with the most imbecile idea that millions of people can understand and use. Just don't have illusions of grandeur that you will ever get that by working either at Google or MS. UNLESS you are in the first 20-50 group of people at ANY company, or unless you are a _MASTER_ of con, power and looking good (read: SALES/REVENUE GENERATION due to your brilliant intellect, not coding!!!! OK Einsten???)
LOOKING GOOD is what it's all about. Being able to persu
I was in the same boat last November, with both Microsoft and Google recruiting me to work on their various video efforts.
It wasn't a hard choice in my case, but I don't know how widely applicable these issues are.
First, Microsoft have tons of smart people who know lots about my field. Google's great on algorithms, but in talking to them I didn't get that they really understand what video and audio are really about, especially the importance of making it LOOK GOOD (e.g. Google Video). Microsoft exactly wanted me for my experience in making video look as good as possible in different areas.
Also, they would require a relocation to the Mountain View area. I have three kids. Google's salary offer looked good on the face of it, but once you factored in the cost of a 4-bedroom in an area with good schools in reasonable communiting range of the Googleplex? No way. Like many Bay Area companies, Google is going to have more luck hiring younger guys than experienced folks like myself in the wife-n-kids phase of life.
Microsoft lets me work from home in Portland, which was the simplest option. But the Redmond/Seattle area is much more affordable, and we're considering relocating.
The decision looks even better in retrospect. Microsoft has been a blast of a place to work, with lots of smart people who really care about doing a great job with the stuff I care about.
At Google, I imaigne I'd have a reputation as "that crank who keeps saying we should spend a much of money making the video look better."
My video compression blog
DOH!
Before I get into the comment, let me preface this by saying I am sure I will be biased towards Microsoft because I work here although I like to think I do my best to keep an open mind.
:-)). I would expect the same at Google...I know people working there and have heard the same things about the employees there.
As many of the other posters have mentioned, you need to look at the teams that made offers to you from both Microsoft and Google. Despite Microsoft being a large company, being on a team that you enjoy is what makes all of the difference. I work in the Microsoft Office division and have never felt that I am not making a large difference to the product I am working on. I get to talk to customers once in a while, help with usability studies, decide on new features, and code the new product. The last point there is my main job so I spend most of my time coding and desiging...but I get to help in the process from start to finish and really feel that my opinions are heard and considered when directing the new product. That said, I have been in Office for 5 years and am considering a move to other teams in Microsoft. Microsoft is very understanding here and encourages moves internally so that an employee doesn't become bored and burnt out with their current product.
I find that I work with extremely smart people every day here and I get to work on programs which are used by millions of people (which is usually a good thing
The benefits are great at both companies...the employees are smart...the products are new and exciting to work on...the flex hours are great so I can have both a life and a career.
Basically, it is going to come down to the teams you have offers from. Look at them closely and consider which product seems more intersting and has a better feel for you and your passions. If you think the Google teams are better aligned with you, go there and have a great career. If you think the Microsoft teams are better for you, come here and have a great career.
I'd go with Google. Simply because I think they have a more concrete vision for the future. That, and Seattle has a high(er) rate of suicides because some find it depressing.
Yeah, you definitely see people in the office late at night and on weekends. I've put in my fair share of long weeks, worked a couple weekends straight, etc. But that was because the work needed to be done, not because someone was behind me cracking the whip, or it would look bad if I wasn't there or whatever.
It doesn't matter how much you make right now, I guarantee that I make the same as or more than you. I work at a much smaller company, and I work 40 hour weeks. And yes, there is *always* work that "needs to be done". If that is going to be your excuse, why do you ever go home? When you are done with one project isn't there *always* something else you *could* be working on? "needs to be done" is a BAD excuse, because it does NOT *need* to be done. Unless you will actually save lives by working those extra four hours, then that work can, in fact, wait for tomorrow.
should I join the empire or the rebel alliance? the answer is clearly......wait..which one offers dental again?
I have been fortunate enough to be offered two jobs, one working for Mother Theresa making the world a better place and the other as Hitler's bed pan washer. Putting aside personal compensation and other factors, am I crazy to want to wash Hitler's bed pans??? I am especially interested in the perspective of 28 year olds living in their Aunt's basement who have never actually kissed a girl. These are both great opportunities so what do you think?
I say be daring, cause change and affect...
;)
Reply to Microsoft stating that you've received a competitive offer from google. Express to Microsoft if they are willing to match certain work conditions & benefits offered by google you will accept their offer. Namely, the freedom of Friday Free Development to work on projects you believe might benefit the corporation.
See if you can make M$ more like google.
Grasshopper,
As an Old Fart (I go back to punch cards), I would caution against going to a big company. Any company with more than three layers of management is well on the road to becoming a bureaucracy.
Work for a smaller company, and it's easier to be noticed as a good worker. Work for a large company, and you are just one in a herd.
And a bureaucracy will eat your soul!
OK, so I'm basically your age (finished a year ago from college). It would be a no-brainer to me to choose Google over Microsoft given the choice. I used to be a Student Ambassador to Microsoft and I became the dispenser of Microsoft gifts and paraphernalia at my college. It was good for my resume and helped me get a job, but the way I was treated (or not treated) by Microsoft totally turned me off to working there or even trying to apply for that matter. They outsourced all interaction between students and MSFT in the Student Ambassador program to a temp agency with considerable churn and lack of structure. And they never encouraged us to apply to Microsoft either or treated us like we were really all that important, but rather exhorted us not to sell our giveaway software on eBay. Instead we had to promote some Imagine Cup contest they ran which got more and more complex/convoluted (maybe run by the people who helped design Vista). And now, they dumped our Tech School entirely because apparently they'd rather hire from gen-ed and/or we're too small for them to care anyway. We also had an alumni from the school who was working at Microsoft give us a presentation for the senior class, and we got a real sense that he works very long hours and it's really not all that interesting, even if technically challenging. Yeah, working on the new Age of Empires or XBOX game is probably interesting within MS, but little else is...
.NET programming which is cool. Furthermore, I'm completely sacrilegious/traitorous from Microsoft's point of view as I've recently bought (and sold recently) AAPL stock, purchased a Macbook laptop, and have registered and plan to attend a Java SIG at Google campus in NYC. I've stopped attending the Microsoft .NET events because I'm sick of the "Rah-Rah" mentality and low level of techie goodness at the .NET user group events in NYC. Oh, and I recommend to people to short MSFT right about now...as I believe they are going the way of the dodo bird in the next 10-15 yrs (or perhaps much sooner).
I have a pretty good friend working at Google, and I queried her about how it was there. She wrote up a little piece on her blog on the differences between Google and Microsoft and why she chose Google. She loves it there working on Google Talk, and the 80/20 rule is strictly enforced. She has also experienced that it is not a grueling work schedule, but in fact a joy to do your work there and the 20% is a nice thing to look forward to in a given week as well.
I'm now at a financial company in NYC doing
This sig donated to Pater. Long live
If you are so uneducated, and have such low outlook on your own life that you need "help" to choose between Microsoft and Google, you should not be allowed near a computer.
Working for microsoft can not be excused (unless you are an illiterate cleaning person that does not even know s/he is working there).
Working for Google is suspect but might be compatible with a modicum of personal morality.
Working for anybody else is probably safer.
To be precise the job of Microsoft is to make our field totally uninteresting while providing the tools necessary to destroy what is left of democracy.
Spend a year at Google. You will definitely learn the new ways of doing business in the computer industry.
Next, because both of them want you, maybe you should realise that you have something which they want you for.
So, after the experience, leave Google, and start your own thing.
http://www.heylos.com -- chat on any website on the Internet!
I'm glad I don't work with you or ever have to depend on you if the shit hits the fan.
Congrats on your big paycheck!
Are you serious?
Google.
Any idiot can work at Microsoft.
If you have to ask which is better for you, you've shown a lack of skill in researching your potential employers.
I'm surprised you even got job offers with that kind of question.
WE WILL FIND YOU ROOKIE.
Do No Evil
unless of course you'll be compensated accordingly
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Man, we can get that stuff here in Virginia, one of the U.S. states with very restrictive alcohol laws. We can even get Unibrou's "Terrible", which is 11%, not this weak 9% training beer you speak of!
I'm amazed that any self-respecting geek would seriously consider working for Microsoft. I'm assuming for now that you are a geek having posted to /.
Crumbling business models aside, the unofficial mission statement of the company seems to be along the lines of "screw over the little guy and a few big ones if you think you can get away with it". Google may make some questionable moves at times but they're practically angelic compared to MS.
Of course it depends entirely on whether or not you'd be happy to sell your soul. I guess to some people money is money at the end of the day no matter how dirty it is.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Boeing has a major data center in Kent, in the Green River valley. There is one scenario where the melting glacier floods out that valley.
The earthquake danger is serious. The building codes are the ones used for "max earthquake" and the Cascadia fault is a doozy.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Whether you take the offer from Microsoft or Google, carrer wise as well on the CV the impact would be high. Google as well as microsoft are at par in this matter. The thing which should consider is where will you be more happy. Working for a Big company doesnt necessary mean u will be happy. Work Profile - Just ckeck out with both companies (in details) what ur work profile is going to be like, as well as how your future growth is going to be. Then think which work profile you are more passionate about, which ever comes close join that company. Love For - If you are a person who loves open source and want others to see your work, then no doubt google should be the choise. Google does give you the freedom to give 20% of your time for any work of your interest, may be it be web related, linux, or anything. Here microsoft will be a big disadvantage, within Microsoft you will have to work on their technology, no linux, no open source, nothing just microsoft technologies. Om the other hand if you love microsoft and MS tech, go with MS Salary, Benefits: Here google as well as Microsoft are equally good. As far as i know google pays litle better than MS and is a more caring company. Working Hours: This is something which no one can never say for sure for any company. IF you have a deadline for a critical project there is no choice maybe whichever company you are working for you will have to slog.
I've worked for 100-person companies, and I've worked for 20k-person companies (e.g., UPS, Cisco). And the bottom line is that you have two things going for you: the ability to cherry-pick, and your age. Google -- whatever may come in the years ahead -- will be a huge learning experience, and look great on the resume. Not that MS wouldn't... but what has MS *done* lately? Zilch. Oooh. Vista's coming out. To see how excited people are, check out its stock performance over the past five years.
Google is going to fly high, or crash hard, but whatever happens, it will be *interesting*. You'll learn stuff -- both practical, and not-so-practical. And you'll have a hell of a lot of fun. I think MS is way too entrenched in its own mindset to be able to offer anything like the experience you'd get at Google. Sure, if Google does well, it just might become the next MS -- but that's then, and, to be cliche, this is now.
Google, mon, Google. MS ain't going anywhere, and if Google flops, I'm sure they'll be glad to have you.
-Slarty
> Oh, and I recommend to people to short MSFT right about now...as I believe they are going the way of the dodo bird in the next 10-15 yrs (or perhaps much sooner).
You've got to be kidding. There's no way that a timeline like that is compatible with an investment practice like "shorting."
I hear there are some good arrangements to be had for people in your situation.
That's fine. Corporate salaries aren't a zero-sum game. And I'm happy you have a job you like that pays well. But I don't really do what I do for the money. As long as my family's needs are met (with a little extra for toys and savings), then I'm happy. I do my job because I find the work interesting and rewarding, and I find working with smart people to be enjoyable. Hence, I like where I work.
there is *always* work that "needs to be done". If that is going to be your excuse, why do you ever go home? When you are done with one project isn't there *always* something else you *could* be working on? "needs to be done" is a BAD excuse, because it does NOT *need* to be done. Unless you will actually save lives by working those extra four hours, then that work can, in fact, wait for tomorrow.
Oh, be serious. You're grossly overstating my point and undersimplifying the issue. While it's true that the bulk of my work load (and therefore my hours) is self-determined, the reality is that I also have coworkers. I work with them on one or more teams, and together we accomplish smaller tasks which contibute to the success of the overall project. And it's also true that sometimes dates are set which have to be met. I do what needs to be done in order to succeed. If I have to work over a weekend once in a while, put in a few long nights, then I do.
What I meant originally was that my managers don't pile on extra work or set unreasonable deadlines and expect 80 hour weeks. That isn't to say that I haven't worked an 80 hour week or two recently, because I have. I did so by choice, because I didn't want to risk letting my team down (and I was trying some new things). But that's the exception to the rule, by far. Normally, I'd say I put in between 40-50 hours. Sometimes I get an itch that needs scratching adn wind up doing some work from home at night or whatever. But I do that because I like what I do, not because I'm a wage slave struggling under the bootheel of The Man.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
"I'd say Microsoft would be better for your CV, Google for your career. "
Good grief. Both would be wonderful for you CV!
Google isn't a small company by any stretch of the imagination.
Unless Google implodes I would say they so close to being equal that it really doesn't matter.
Kind of like the difference in working at Bell Labs, Cray, and IBM in the 80's.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror knowing that I was contributing to the success of a company that has shown such poor ethical and legal practices as Microsoft. I've always wanted to make a difference, and no matter how convenient or lucrative the other options, I hope I'll always choose to make a good difference, and consider all the other factors as secondary.
Despite what anyone says, you will be working alot of hrs at both companies.., and probably any company you start at. You are just out of school and will want and need to get your hands dirty and show that you can produce.
If you are an arrogant individual, Google is definitely the place for you. Lots of great people there, but the culture is rediculously arrogant, and you better like kool-aid.
Microsoft is the big old main-stay that has been around the block and does a TON of diferent things. If you go there, you will have chances to move around into other areas in the software industry. Definitely the choice if you dont know what you really want to do yet.
I have always worked in startups. You will never have more responsibility and gain experience as quick in any big company..., so I would recomend looking into some. The hrs are usually pretty long, but well worth the experience.
I haven't seen any of that here, to be honest. I've been on the working end of such dictates before, and I'm pretty sensitive to such things nowadays. For sure the folks here are pretty well motivated and dedicated, but there's also a level of autonomy (at the individual engineer level) which would probably cause to the engineer being worked to death to call shenanigans. It would probably boil down to the engineer saying something like "That's not a reasonable request which doesn't fit into the task list you and I ahve already worked out and agreed on, so please refigure your dates and get back to me".
But the thing you need to realize is that more likely than not, the person saying "this is due in two weeks" has not only decided on that date after talking with all his coders, but he's also probably spending half his day coding as well.
I guess what I'm saying is that the process by which statements like "this is due in two weeks" are generated doesn't really exist here. There are deadlines and such, but they are derived less obtusely than that. Things tend to go from the individual coder on up.
I understand that at Google the motivation to work comes from you, not from the management (at least, not directly), but if that still translates into the same work hours, then maybe life at MS is better.
I can't say how it compares to MS, never having worked there. But you can work a normal 40 hour week (using the free shuttles that take you all over the bay area are good for keeping you on track, as it "forces" you to leave at 5:40 or whatever) or as many hours as you want. Also, a lot of people work from home (one manager always seems to send mail shortly after 10pm; probably she's done with dinner, kids are in bed, she's checking up on work email for the morning).
But I can say that the "life" here is pretty good. I'm sure MS is very nice, but I couldn't imagine better perks, or a better company to work for. The level of caring for and understanding of the employees continues to be very refreshing.
Basically, how many engineers at Google really do keep regular hours all the time ? I'd like to know the answer, just to satisfy my curiosity.
I'd say not keeping regular hours is by far the exception rather than the rule. We have some guys on weird schedules who come in at noon and work until 11pm or whatever. The hours are intentionally very flexible so they can do that. However, the parking lot starts emptying at about the usual time, and fills up in the morning like you'd expect at any other company. The notion of several thousand people putting in 18 hour days, day and day out, is a complete myth. Some people put in long hours, but it's neither required nor expected.
Though like I said earlier, if you come in on a weekend, you will see people coding. But they're also probably just getting some work done until their laundry is finished. :-)
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Here is my 2 cents. Area around Microsoft is becoming second to California in terms of cost of living. Prices for houses and condos continue to rise and with a starting entry-level salary of ~80K at MS not everyone can afford a decent place to live near Redmond campus. Many Microsoft employees bought 2-4 houses extra as an investment venture to cash out in the future. So, what you left with is an overpriced old junk you would not want to live in or will become a cash cow for your co-workers who started earlier then you and invested in real estate around Microsoft. Also, to tel lthe truth 80K would be a good salaray elsewhere but Seattle. Another thing to consider, work environment - there is no such thing at MS as a team. Everyone thinks he is a smart just because he works at MS and think things should be done his way - as a result no work is done and everythign is a mess. Don't get me wrong - technology is great at MS and there are like 4 companies like this in the whole world (MS, Oracle, IBM and maybe Google), but all things considered monetarily life is not sustainable in Redmond area. If you want life and family, consider either moving to a subsideary or work as a consultant for MS. Work for a development group will be tough - I can assure you that. Personally, I would want to live in neither Silicon Valley nor around Seattle.
fucxks loser!
At the beginning of your career is an excellent time to so "no" to free overtime. Tell each prospective employer that you will be available for emergencies, but that for the majority of evenings and weekends you have commitments and are not available for work. If either one says, "Oh yes you will be available," then don't take the job. If they say they respect your private time, but in practice they don't, then it's time to start looking again.
Looking for a job is a lot like looking for a spouse. If during the courtship (interviewing and probationary period, typically 30 working days) they say or do something that makes you think they are too clingy or needful, you should realize that they will only get worse once you commit to them. After all, they are trying to impress you, too.
If you are upfront with prospective employers and tell them that you are a serious worker, don't take long lunch breaks, read the news, or waste time, and you take your commitments seriously, and that you will consistently give your best, most alert and most productive 40 hours to your company, then they should be able to respect that.
Yes of course there are unforeseen circumstances, but frequent overtime is a management failure. They are supposed to schedule your work realistically. They don't own you, they are renting you on terms that you negotiate during the hiring process.
Just remember the saying about the 12-hour work day: Four hours to fix what you broke yesterday, four hours to make advancements, and four hours to make mistakes for tomorrow.
In 15 years I've worked one weekend and a handful (i.e. on the order of 5) evenings. And I'm only a B student from a state school, not some braniac.
I think you should consider that Google gives all of it's employees a certain time to develop their own projects... to work on their own thing. That's a big turn-on, for me @ least...
If you're smart, you should go to Google. Our industry is prone to monopolizing effects and one of the only ways to counter these effects is for talented people to flock to the underdog. So your choice is between helping entrench Microsoft's monopolies and helping encourage healthy competition. Do the right thing.
It all depends whether you want work for a corporate entity which has as its motto "do no evil" or not.
My advice is to steer well clear of this Industry entirely. It's pure cyanide to having a happy, fulfilled, and balanced life.
The working conditions throughout are not far off being well paid slavery. Burn-out, divorce and the intertwined melancholia are rampant. That's not a life-style I would wish on anybody. Consider also that unless you are an exception you will probably be 'spat-out', 'let go', i.e. sacked at the age of about 50. If you have been very lucky you will have amassed sufficient capital be able to retire, or start your own business, but at that age success is by no means certain.
Use your computer skills in a business which does something else as the main activity.
Computer Science is fine as a facinating hobby as long as you don't let it get totally out of control.
Given this is your first job, out of college, what you should be starting to think about is how will your career evolve? How will you evolve?
As this is your first job, what you need to be doing is thinking about how to develop your professional skills in whatever area of IT you work in.
This may sound strange, but the best place to start working is the one with the most rules about how to do whatever it is you do. Sure this may make life difficult for people BUT it is an important piece of ground work for you to experience.
REMEMBER that taking a position at either of these two places is NOT a choice for life.
In case this message is confused, the absolute worst job you could have would be one where there was no disciple applied and you were allowed to do "whatever".
Write back to Google/Microsoft and ask them some questions.
Most importantly, when it comes time to do interviews in person, make sure YOU INTERVIEW THE COMPANY.
I suppose where this is going is that if you're good enough to get offers from both of these places then maybe the best place for you is somewhere else first and then back to them.
With Microsoft, you clearly have a management who believes that producing a truly better product is too hard for them to either implement or effectively comprehend and therefore must resort to underhanded lock-in or other anticompetitive schemes. Either that, or they're simply too enamoured with creating such schemes. And in this regard Microsoft looks to be a really poor loser, though in their favor they're known to come out then winner often.
On the other hand, there's Google, whos management appears to be quite confident in their ability to innovate. They seem to encourage experimentation and freedom within the corporate culture. On the downside, it's really not very clear what their success rate is-- at this point it's too soon to tell. Working for Google might be riskier, but could be very rewarding.
Having worked in IT for about 25 years though, I would say that no matter who you choose to work for, there are a couple of things you should be aware of:
1. A company hires you because they need to fill a position, and am looking for a best-fit for that position. It is often the case that you may have far more abilities than the company you work for can readily utilize. While you might get really lucky and find an incredibly great fit, the situation may be more typical and you will find out that you have all kinds of abilities that they have either no particular use for or they may not be equipped to take effective advantage of them. While your job could be a life-long profession, and you may find a good company willing to hire you to do a job that you're well suited to do, keep in mind that you could spend much of your life underutilized because you have talents they don't know what to do with. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but idealists right of college may be picturing how they can do all this wonderful stuff for a company that they're excited about but end up appreciated for far less than that they feel they could contribute.
2. It's often the case that you get hired for one thing but by the time you walk in the door they need you for something else that has higher priority. That's not particularly a bad thing but I've had it happen to me at virtually every programming job I've ever had, so all I'm saying is don't be too surprised if that happens. In my case, every thing I ended up doing was just about as interesting so I had no problem with it.
3. Younger companies tend to be more unstructured-- often you have to invent procedures for doing things for the first time. Older companies often have their "way" of doing things that you may have to conform to. Depending on your own personality, you have to decide what makes you more comfortable-- and, that might change as you become more "seasoned".
Pass my CV on to them willl you? http://www.btinternet.com?~dr_paul_lee/cv.doc
My web domain.
The answer is simple, just follow what other's do. Accept Microsoft's offer, work there until you have a high profile, and then quit and go work for Google.
Australian running a company that does C# / C++ / Java / SQL / Python / Mathematica
Whatever the "computer science industry" means...
Doug Jensen
Ditto on this. There is a wide variety of work durations at Google. Younger people sometimes work 9-10 hours a day. People with families work 8 hours to the dot, and that's just fine.
I think a lot of people hit it on the head when they pointed out that people who work long hours at G do it because it's fun, both the work, and the campus. That's pretty amazing
- Anon Googler
What's up with the "definate" spelling skills at Microsoft? Don't you guys need to write?
Shitty long tables and cubicles at Google
Or neat offices at M$.
Only 17 days? You have no life, you sad, sad SOB! One day you're going to wake up old and realize that there's little time left and you've done nothing with your life except work. I take off 7 weeks a year and that's still not enough! You can't do anything in 17 days. What was that? If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium? It takes a week and a half just to get out of work mode and actually start to relax. One works to live, not the other way round. Life is short. It is not a trial run. This is it. This is all you'll ever have. You really need to sit back and take stock. There's so much more to life than coding, or whatever it is you do, and you're missing out on it. As for the person deciding on a career, think about what options you have with regards to location. Where is the best place to raise your kids? Will you have the spare time to keep your wife happy? What do you love to do, go sailing, hike in the mountains? There's a lot to consider. At your age, you have plenty of options. Look for balance between work and your real life. Two weeks vacation a year is not a life. Finally here is some unsolicited economic advice: Make a will Pay off your credit cards Put a minimum of 10% of your net wages into a separate account for investment right off the top and don't use it for anything else; you won't miss it. Get term life insurance if you have a family to support Fund your 401k to the maximum Fund your IRA to the maximum Buy a house if you want to live in a house and can afford it Put six months worth of expenses in a money-market account Take whatever money is left over and invest 70% in a stock index fund and 30% in a bond fund through any discount broker and never touch it until retirement If any of this confuses you, or you have something special going on (retirement, college planning, tax issues), hire a fee-based financial planner, not one who charges a percentage of your portfolio Do this and you'll have plenty for retirement.
No, it's not merely a personal preference. No man is an island. If the guy in the office next to yours works 60 hours a week, your boss may start pressuring you to work just as much.
Both companies have jobs in both locations, exactly because some people prefer one location and some prefer the other.
Google is still in its early days, and it has a reputation for innovation and intelligence (the same reputation that Microsoft had in the early 80s).
But there's a difference: in the case of Google, the reputation is reserved, while in the case of Microsoft it wasn't, at least not in the early 80's. Microsoft was a caricature of a high tech company back then. Almost no self-respecting expert would go there (if they did, it was only for the money), and Microsoft ended up hiring lots of smart but inexperienced college grads who reinvented the wheel.
In recent years, Microsoft actually has become a decent company, oddly enough as their reputation for innovation has actually declined.
Have you ever heard about the reciprocity rule?
Give a little to get a lot in return.
That's what Goo has been doing and that's why it's been getting rave reviews.
But that's not what my own experience has been.
I had an interview with Goo on their main campus in mountain view last year.
As I was flying there I had this idea that it was "my" place.
after all, pi and e buildings, 80/20, free snacks, bicycling to work -- creative, different, free, this is so me! Should be a great environment!
But after being there I realized two things:
1) There is such a thing as too much creativity. It backfires. You'll start seeing it soon.
2) The gimmicks are just that -- gimmicks.
You'll end up having NO life. You'll be fat and ugly (by the way, i've been at quite a few companies so far but Goo has the ugliest geeks ever. I do not know why. Men or women, no matter)
Choose yourself.
I'm late here, but consider the culture, weather, and locally available attractions in your decision. I've not worked for either, so I can't say, just something I always take into consideration. I imagine that, at the very least, you'd have a shot to work at the company you do not pick later down the line. Using that mentality, I would probably pick google first, as even though Google is getting big, Microsoft is bigger and has a lot more staying power and money.
:)
For me, "free food" appeals a great deal, as it's one of those little irritating things which bothers me throughout the day. You'd not have to cook, go shopping (much), or do much premeditation about what to eat. For me - someone who eats 4 large meals a day due to a high metabolism and does not particularly care for the act of eating in the first place (ie no "food fetish" like some people), this is a big plus. Single? Usually eat microwave pizzas? You'll end up saving thousands by working at google simply due to the food, as if you don't have free food, you'll probably end up eating out a lot more often, I imagine. That's a financial side of things you might want to keep in mind.
Another thing in Google's favor is that they, as far as I know, have a lot more campuses across the country, so you would have more opportunity for changing your location on a whim than with Microsoft. Who knows, you might not like the yuppie culture of Seattle (I know I sure as hell wouldn't). Culturally, Google seems to have a lot more diverse people - at least geographically. I imagine the geographical seperation of campuses even assists in the comapny being as diverse as possible.
If you've got an offer on the table already, be honest with both of them. Tell them you've got an offer from MS/Google, and would like to see what they would have you doing specifically, and would at least like to try and get a taste of the company culture before you make your decision. If they want you bad enough at the rate they're likely to pay you, chances are they'd fly you out - provided you've not already been out there.
From an outsider's view, Microsoft has little to offer that Google wouldn't also have. From where I'msitting, MS has a very tight-laced image - one of authoritarian worldview enforcement (at least as it pertains to software culture).
I would be interested in your response, just to know I didn't waste my time thinking about htis.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
It remainds me a nice joke about workin in MS ;
Teacher asks students, where they parents work.
Joe said that his father works as a mechanical, he repairs a cars,
Michael said that his father is an doctor, he works in hospital.
John said that, his father dance on a pipe in a night club.
Teatcher almost died, all children started to lought.
After lessons Teacher asks John once more;
- Is it true, what You have said about your father ???
- No.... my father works in a Microsoft, but i was shamed to said this.
And whatever you do: don't use punctuation between sentences
And anyway, how do you think I'll get all that financial security Adams was talking about if I just suddenly up and decide to "live life to the fullest"? I get 3 weeks a year. MS give about the same I think. I used part of my time to go on a specific tour to certain places in Europe. It was well-planned and I liked that.
Wait... what the hell was your point again?
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
It all comes down to what you want to do for the next 5 years or so. What does your gut/intuition tell you (listen to it)!
The way I see it - your prime driving factor should be (all other things equal) - what is the experience you want to derive out of your job!
Having said that - I would say go to Google - they are at a point where you would gain the maximum amount of learning (read experience)...
i have not read all the responses. your question was one of the reasons i got an accont at slashdot.
i don't claim or hope to understand your situation. As someone pointed out, you probably got the job of a janitor or maybe even the lead IT dude. i don't know. This reply assumes you are another computer science engineer.
This is an honest response to your question.
you have two options, not the firms, but life choices. you can join microsoft, and we all know (even if we all don't agree), you have a "secure" future, based on one of your choices. Microsoft isn't going to go away in any foreseeable future.
Google would be fun to work for, but will come with the pain of irregular hours of work, which a young blood like yourself might not realise now, but will surely feel, once you have what is called a life. I maybe the devil's advocate in all this, but seriously, if you are not the type to stand up and be counted, go with microsoft.
A simple test would be to, as someone pointed out earlier, and i honestly reccommend, (and as he said, you won't get your youth again), go walk thru tibet or any other such desolate space on this earth, or even, and i don't reccommend this, a real place of misery like darfur, iraq, somalia or any other such countless lands and i sincerely hope you see more than what you have known. Hey! there's a reason why even the car insurance companies won't bring down your rates unless you are 25 and above. For a whole lot explanation that can fit in here, you are better off staying with people you love and doing work that gives you enough time to be with them.
Here's a quick guide to Google's mantra on innovation. If you find yourself agreeing to all of them, then you're a Google type. If not, you're better off working for Microsoft.
9 notions of innovation by Marissa Mayer of Google:
- Ideas come from everywhere
- Share everything you can
- You're brilliant, we're hiring
- A license to pursue dreams
- Innovation, not instant perfection
- Don't politic, use data
- Creativity loves restraint
- Worry about usage and users, not money
- Don't kill projects - morph them
Every Information based company that does business in China censors their content. Microsoft, Lycos, Yahoo, Altavista, Ask... All of them. It is the price of admission to their 1.3 billion consumers. The difference is that the founders of Google were the first company to ever Object to it. Search revenue by by topic (Porn, Music, Software, Job sites, whatever) is fairly evenly distributed across the search engines. The pie has the same proportions of ingredients, the only difference is how big is google/yahoo/msn's slice.
I'm your fan !! Microsoft and Google jobs offers !!! great !!! I made some interviews @ MS and Google. Look to stock options and variable salary. and.. about the companies... choose Google.. it's more flexible that MS.
One broke the law.
The other is nice chumps with the Chinese government.
Do not use the word "decent" in this context please, it is very disingineous.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Younger guys may not have a family, but have a life to be lived.
It is a big mistake to fall into the routine of puting extra hours just because.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.