Pre-Installed Linux Tops Dell Customer Requests

dhart writes "Within only a few days of Dell opening a new customer feedback website, they discovered that the feature most requested (by an almost 2-to-1 margin!) is an option on all new Dell PCs: pre-installed Linux. (And the number 3 request is pre-installed Open Office.) I believe they'll have a harder time now with the tired old mantra 'There's no customer demand for Linux.'"

Comments

Their system configurator

[suso]

That's cool. But one thing that has always annoyed me about their server configuration utility is that you can select "no operating system, Linux configuration", but there are some hardware options that don't work with that option and so you have to select the microsoft config. So much for getting some extra counts for
the Linux side

Re:Their system configurator

[taursir]

It's probably just a money-making or liability ploy. Although, you'd assume that if you're selecting that configuration, you know what you're doing, and they don't have to deal with people going, "OMG, IT WONT START".

Re:Their system configurator

[bhtooefr]

Maybe because of hardware that isn't compatible with Linux?

Re:Their system configurator

[Anonymous Coward]

"no operating system, Linux configuration"

is'nt that because the operating system is actually emacs?

Re:Their system configurator

[rklrkl]

Funny, whenever my company orders Dell Poweredge servers with the no OS option, that's all I have do (how you can have a "Linux configuration" when there's no OS shipped with it?). Slap on CentOS 4.4 and you have an enterprise level OS (a clone of RHEL 4) for no extra cost. And, yes, the Poweredge hardware is fully supported by the enterprise Linux distros in case you're wondering.

A quick check shows that the "No OS, RHEL $0" and "No OS, Windows $0" options are only on the US www.dell.com site. If you go via the UK www.dell.co.uk site you far more sensibly just get a single "Not included [included in price]" no-cost/no-OS option.

Re:Their system configurator

[NtroP]

Funny, whenever my company orders Dell Poweredge servers with the no OS option, that's all I have do (how you can have a "Linux configuration" when there's no OS shipped with it?).

If I recall correctly, one of the options is for the TCP/IP Offload Engine or something like that. I thought it was strange, too, that you'd have to specify a windows or linux configuration when you want no OS...

Re:Their system configurator

[jeffy210]

That's just a glitch with their website, the offload engine is actually software configured in the OS. Choosing no OS does not keep you from using the offload engine, you just need to install an OS that supports it. If you have a supported OS chosen (Windows or Linux) they will do the configuration. Really though it's a moot point if you wipe and reload it yourself.

Re:Their system configurator

[jlarocco]

Maybe because of hardware that isn't compatible with Linux?

I'm not seeing your point. Incompatible hardware is only a problem if you have an existing computer, and you want to run a different OS on it. If you're building the machine, as Dell is, it doesn't make any sense to purposely choose hardware that's incompatible with the OS most people (buying these machines) want to use.

It could be an honest mistake, but they're probably just being asshats.

Re:Their system configurator

[HAKdragon]

emacs is and excellent OS, it just needs a good text editor.

Re:Their system configurator

[jmauro]

The only PowerEdge OS option that is annoying that they don't support Windows XP on the boxes. I've got a number of places where the best place to put someone's machine is in the rack in the desk. Kind of sucks that if you install Windows XP you void the warranty.

Re:Their system configurator

[jmpvm]

TOE is only supported by MS Windows. The kernel gods wisely decided to not bother with supporting that hack.

Re:Their system configurator

[JonathanR]

And with GRUB, you can dual boot vi & emacs.

Re:Their system configurator

[McFadden]

I'm not seeing your point. Incompatible hardware is only a problem if you have an existing computer, and you want to run a different OS on it. If you're building the machine, as Dell is, it doesn't make any sense to purposely choose hardware that's incompatible with the OS most people (buying these machines) want to use.

So you're saying that Dell should only be allowed to ship their servers with 100% Linux compatible parts? Presumably you're one of the people who also complained when they were a 100% Microsoft lock-in.

You said it yourself in the comment: "the OS most people want to use" (emphasis mine). I note you specifically didn't say all people. Which means there there are people out there who may not want their hardware requirements dictated by an OS they're not even going to install.

Re:Their system configurator

[Stamen]

Pico is a good Windows User detector, I just wish it had an editor.

Re:Their system configurator

[fimbulvetr]

Strictly for my edification, what makes it a hack?

Re:Their system configurator

[Morlark]

Which means there there are people out there who may not want their hardware requirements dictated by an OS they're not even going to install.

Erm, I haven't really used the Dell system configurator whatchamajingle very much, but just from reading this the gist of the OP seems to be that Dell are unnecessarily limiting your hardware options if you choose the no OS option. i.e. We want Dell to be reducing the limitations, not adding them as you seem to be implying. Yes, you're right that there are probably people who don't want their hardware requirements dictated by an OS they're not going to install. But the OS-that-isn't-being-installed doesn't try to limit our anonymous consumers hardware choices. Dell does. At least that's what I picked up from reading this thread.

Re:Their system configurator

[jlarocco]

So you're saying that Dell should only be allowed to ship their servers with 100% Linux compatible parts? Presumably you're one of the people who also complained when they were a 100% Microsoft lock-in.

I didn't say that at all, and I think most people got my point. If they're selling a machine to be used with Linux, then logic would imply that those machines should actually work with Linux.

You said it yourself in the comment: "the OS most people want to use" (emphasis mine). I note you specifically didn't say all people. Which means there there are people out there who may not want their hardware requirements dictated by an OS they're not even going to install.

Slow down, and read what I said. The whole thing, with the parentheses. I explicitly pointed out that the people buying *these* machines, specifically the "No OS, Linux" machines, want the machines to run Linux. I wasn't refering to Dell machines in general. If Dell is selling the machine without an OS, specifically so that people can put Linux on it, then yes, I think Dell should make at least a little effort to make sure it comes with Linux compatible hardware. Otherwise, what's the point?

Re:Their system configurator

[dotgain]

Probably nothing but the G.Ps own bitterness that the spec is closed, so he can't use it. TOE is simply part of the networking stack being implemented in hardware. In my opinion (and yours too, I hope) TOE is no more of a "hack" than audio-mixing being done in the sound card rather than on the CPU.

Much as I love cool hardware doing cool stuff, I too really wish everyone could use it. It's almost as if the only thing keeping half the hardware companies afloat is the existence of Non disclosure agreements.

Re:Their system configurator

[Theatetus]

From what I can tell, "Linux configuration" just means that the "Dell Utility Partition" is marked bootable and the rest of the primary hard drive is set to ID 0x83, which is pointless since you're going to partition a swap device anyways (if you're not a moron).

Re:Their system configurator

[sumdumass]

You know, they wouldn't have to do much on making that happen either. All they would need to do is contact a few distros and say "hay, we would like to incease the linux compatability on our computers, Here is the list of current products we offer, Tell wich arts are supported out of the box." Then have a little log in that lets rehat, mandriva or whatever upload a file. Then pipe that into the configurator and have an option that say supported by X distro OTB (ot of the box) with a disclaimer when you select hardware that isn't.

And actualy, Dell could rid them self of support call trouble with linux and just warenty hardware with their existing diag tools and have some of the distros image the drive and handle support for a few months there. This way a power user could buy a non-loaded system and have an idea of the support for the hardware or a newer person could order it preinstalled and ready to surf the web, check email and do simple office stuff.

Re:Their system configurator

[sumdumass]

You could do that now. The discount if anything on a no OS system is less the $35 or so. That about the price they add for their OS costs when they buy them in bulk at the rate they do. It isn't like they are paying the $100 or so for an OEM copy or whatever the list price is for everyone else now.

So it isn't like the risks outway the need (or costs) unless your doing it just for thrills and kicks or something. When buying a PC without windows, You save the most at mom and pop style shops but would still end up paying more then the discounted Dell's that are availible.

I see were your going with it. And thats the response thats needed. Maybe then MS will lower it's prices for others too.

Re:Their system configurator

[sumdumass]

Well, I was told you cannot run grub without talking to Lili.. or was that Lilo. I don't know she had a funny name.

Re:Their system configurator

[red crab]

I remember seeing a laptop ad in a newspaper a couple of months ago. It ran like this - What Other Low Price Laptops offer: Celeron processor, 512 MB RAM, Linux OS. What We Offer: Centrino Processor, 1 GB RAM, Windows XP Home. It was trying to point out out Linux as a part of sub-standard configuration. Such predispositions from leading hardware vendors (Dell included) have mainly contributed to the reluctance of average PC user in considering Linux as an alternative to Windows.

Re:Their system configurator

[The_Wilschon]

So long as that Stitch kid doesn't tag along. Man that thing is kinda creepy.

Re:Their system configurator

[jrockway]

It is a good text editor, that's the thing. It just happens to be fun to program extensions, so there are a lot of them.

Glad that's settled then. M-x commit-post.

Re:Their system configurator

[RockDoctor]

I'm not seeing your point. Incompatible hardware is only a problem if you have an existing computer, and you want to run a different OS on it. If you're building the machine, as Dell is, it doesn't make any sense to purposely choose hardware that's incompatible with the OS most people (buying these machines) want to use.

So you're saying that Dell should only be allowed to ship their servers with 100% Linux compatible parts? Presumably you're one of the people who also complained when they were a 100% Microsoft lock-in.

So, your example of a (server-relevant type of hardware which has *only* examples that require MS drivers AND have EULAs that forbid writing your own driver by investigating the hardware) is?
Just picking a server at random (pedge_sc1435) I get options on the processor (I believe all work with Linux or M$) ; a second processor (it's a dual-socket server, mid-range) ; awww, futz, they've crashed ... reload, support services (no thanks, but also available from LUG and RH as well as M$) ; memory (also works with Linux, not aware of any counter-examples) ...
  They've crashed again (or are they being Slashdotted - neat trick while I'm still writing the comment!) or are just unusably slow, but the other options I can see listed are for RAID controllers, "RAID connectivity" (WTF that? iSCSI or FibreChannel or something like that?), first and second hard drives. All component classes which have FLOSS drivers for hardware implementations available.
Face it, Dell are just being shills for M$. Film at eleven.

(I was considering a Dell laptop as this one gets more tired, but I'm thinking their website might prevent this. Oh dear.)

Re:Their system configurator

[dylan_-]

There's a bit of discussion here explaining reasons why the patch didn't get accepted into the kernel.

Re:Their system configurator

[amias]

People design computers around operating systems , its a good thing , it makes sure they work.

I always buy systems made of parts that i know work with linux even if the likleyhood is that it would
never be run on them. IME this has always meant better kit with more reliable designs and more chance
of continued driver support.

Re:Their system configurator

[McFadden]

The point is, the people buying the no OS machines might not want to run Linux at all, so why limit the parts to Linux compatible only. I can see the point your making - what I'm saying is, there may be people who want to run Solaris, who don't care that the part in question doesn't have Linux drivers. The fact that there is no "No OS/Solaris" option in the configurator means that the No OS/Linux option is the only one they can go for - but it doesn't necessarily mean Linux is their OS of choice.

Re:Their system configurator

[Iridium_Hack]

What I'd really like to see is pre-installed Linux with Wireless! Isn't there any wireless card out there with a driver that works seemlessly with Linux? If it was pre-installed, it would save a lot of people a lot of time.

Still, having it pre-installed and pre-tested to work with all the other hardware on the computer would help a lot of people who are just starting out with Linux. Dell should have the resources and expertise to make it happen.

Re:Their system configurator

[jedidiah]

...all a Red Herring.

They can simply have another checkbox to indicate whether or not the combination of hardware is or is not Linux compatable. They could even go a step further and expand this to "Vista compatable" and "no-muss, no-fuss XP compatable".

In one fell swoop this can handle everyone that has their own enterprise OS licensing.

Re:Their system configurator

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I'm not seeing your point. Incompatible hardware is only a problem if you have an existing computer, and you want to run a different OS on it. If you're building the machine, as Dell is, it doesn't make any sense to purposely choose hardware that's incompatible with the OS most people (buying these machines) want to use.

Dell's supply chain is something I don't think you've taken into account. You're thinking of a supply chain like Lenovo, where they spec out a machine, pick component suppliers for a revision, test it and ship. In that case, you certainly can test to make sure the components are Linux compatible, and it probably is not even very hard. Dell, however, does not pick component suppliers when they spec out a revision. They just buy lots of whatever is cheapest and throw them in. If you've ever ordered a lot of 100 machines from then and looked inside, they don't all have the same components inside. They will almost certainly have different hard drives and may well have different video cards, sound cards, ethernet cards, etc. We were bitten by this years ago when building a testlab running Linux and NetBSD. First, it was cheaper to buy hundreds of Windows licenses and discard them then to buy blank machines. Next, although the machines we purchased were theoretically all the same model, only about 2/3 of them had a video card that supported NetBSD.

I do think Dell would incur real costs to make sure their machines all ran Linux unless they simply issued a blanket notice to all bidders that everything had to run Linux or it was going to be dismissed immediately. They have the pull to do it, but given that they exist only at MS's sufferance, I doubt it will ever happen.

Re:Their system configurator

[Infinityis]

FINISH VIM!

Re:Their system configurator

[AeroIllini]

If Dell is selling the machine without an OS, specifically so that people can put Linux on it, then yes, I think Dell should make at least a little effort to make sure it comes with Linux compatible hardware. Otherwise, what's the point?

I think the GP's point was that the demand is for the Linux option to be available on any machine Dell sells, which means that Dell would have to choose all their hardware to be Linux-compatible; kind of a lowest-common-denominator approach.

However, that being said, Dell is a big enough distributor of computers that they could lean on hardware manufacturers to write drivers for Linux, and thus make all their hardware compatible with Linux. After all, the only thing stopping these manufacturers from writing Linux drivers in the first place is market share: when 98% of the computers sold have Windows, they just develop for Windows. But if Dell started selling Linux machines, and/or offering the option of any OS on their machines, then the hardware vendors would have reason to develop drivers for those OSs; Dell wouldn't carry the hardware otherwise, and that's a mighty big account to lose.

When you're the 800lb gorilla in the room, you can dictate hardware specs to your vendors. I'm happy to see that Dell is willing to take on Microsoft and stop this Windows lock-in cycle. The end result of more competition can only be good for consumers.

Re:Their system configurator

[Lockejaw]

So you're saying that Dell should only be allowed to ship their servers with 100% Linux compatible parts?

On the systems that ship with Linux preinstalled, yes. When an software (system or user level) comes preinstalled, I expect it to work.

Re:Their system configurator

[jedidiah]

...sounds like some Lemming can't cope with the fact that people were pushing DOS even when it was obviously more pathetic than everything else on the market in any area other than 3rd party vendor support.

Windows is in the position it is in the market today because everyone assumes that any random PC will be supported by Windows better than anything else.

Re:Their system configurator

[yuna49]

I was considering a Dell laptop as this one gets more tired, but I'm thinking their website might prevent this. Oh dear.

I just bought my daughter an Inspiron 640m and installed Fedora Core 6 on it without much difficulty. I made sure I ordered the Intel 3945 wireless card because I knew from past experience with another laptop the Intel makes their firmware and drivers freely available. The machine also has Intel 945GM video for which Intel also publishes a Linux driver. The video RPM was included in the distro (January's "Unity" Fedora respin), but you need five RPM's for the 3945 card. They're all at atrpms.net. While you're there, pick up the 915resolution hack that enables you to set the Intel video card to the proper widescreen resolutions.

Lately the Dell configuration site has been rather slow at times. Hang in, though. I got a pretty powerful lightweight machine for $1000.

Re:Their system configurator

[RockDoctor]

Thanks for the info, but wireless is definitely not on the agenda (who needs the security worries? Which reminds me to get hold of a wireless detector/ jammer before the daughter opens up her laptop to the outside world). Of course, I could try the impossible and specify absence of wireless hardware.

Do Dell use the same configuration site for America as for Europe? I wouldn't think so from the website address, the Irish accents I've encountered on their support lines in the past, the speed of shipping, etc.

Re:Their system configurator

[yuna49]

I think you'll be very hard pressed to find a laptop these days that doesn't include built-in wireless.

I haven't really worried much about wireless security. I have our wifi router configured to talk to only the MAC addresses of the computers we own, so outsiders are effectively locked out. I haven't tried implementing WPA or similar encryption technologies because my experience in the past was they were a real hassle. I suppose someone could have a wireless sniffer in my neighborhood gathering passwords and the like, but I think the likelihood of that is so low as to not be worth the effort.

Hell, I can see at least a half-dozen wifi access points from the confines of my home office. Anyone wanting to jump onto a unsecured wifi will just move on to someone else's after he or she is refused a connection by my AP.

Wifi was just a much easier solution to getting a connection into my daughter's upstairs bedroom in our rented home. Sure beats pulling CAT-5 wire.

Demographics

[Wordplay]

Strangely, the #2 option was pre-installed pictures of Natalie Portman.

Re:Demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are running windows, that will happen soon enough.

Re:Demographics

[aquatone282]

Strangely, the #2 option was pre-installed pictures of Natalie Portman.

This is Dell we're talking about.

If the #2 request was pictures of Brittany Spears and Paris Hilton shaving each other, I'd be more willing to believe you.

Re:Demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

Whooosh!

Re:Demographics

[networkBoy]

How 'bout a petrified statue of Natalie Portman shaving Brittney Spears in soviet russia while standing on a beowulf cluster of old koreans?

(did I miss anything? ... oh yeah! not sure where the hot grits go...)
-nB

Re:Demographics

[sconeu]

Yeah, the beowulf cluster of old koreans is running a dead version of BSD.

Re:Demographics

[MichaelSmith]

did I miss anything?

Something about welcoming our bald masters.

Re:Demographics

[thopkins]

But do these servers play .ogg files?

Re:Demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

oh yeah! not sure where the hot grits go...

Oh I am. >:-D

Re:Demographics

[HateBreeder]

2. ???
3. Profit!

Re:Demographics

[jaavaaguru]

Yes, but you need Active X enabled on your client for it to work.

Re:Demographics

[db32]

There is a car analogy waiting to happen here...

Re:Demographics

[Jesus_666]

(did I miss anything? ... oh yeah! not sure where the hot grits go...)

Down your pants, duh!

Re:Demographics

[TheJOsh!(tm)]

I, for one, welcome our petrified soviet-twin demi-goddess overlords, you insensitive clod!

curious

[gravesb]

I'm all for choice, and I think its pretty stupid of Dell not to have offered this before. However, I wonder how many unique requests there are, and how many people asked for that a 1000 times or so. I use Linux at home, but it sure isn't on a Dell box; I built my own, as I guess a lot of Linux hobbists do. But if this gets Dell to implement that option, then great. More Linux penetration is good. Of course, people have to follow up on it; if they offer it and no one buys it, it just gives them and other retailers a reason not to offer it and will make it harder in the future to get pre-made Linux boxes from the major sellers.

Re:curious

[truthsearch]

I think its pretty stupid of Dell not to have offered this before.

At least until 2001 Microsoft threatened to completely revoke their OEM licenses if Dell offered any other OS. Microsoft was forced to lighten up just a little bit in their conduct after the anti-trust trial.

Re:curious

[smilindog2000]

I found an interesting Dell/Linux bit of hype. Dell pushed their new $400 Dimension e521 as a good Linux machine last fall, but it turned out that it wouldn't actually run Linux, due to BIOS bugs on Dell's system. I expected the community to report the bug, and move onto the next machine... wrong. There were at least hundreds of angry linux users out there making a stink... and then the unthinkable happened... Dell listened to the Linux community feedback and FIXED their BIOS! I bought one as soon as I read that. It makes a great Linux box, at least if you run Ubuntu Feisty :-)

Re:curious

[Trom77]

Yes, I'm sure that many linux users do build their own desktop PC's, as I do. This isn't the reason I would want such an option from Dell, as I probably will never buy a desktop from them. However, right now, I am using my Dell laptop that came with a preinstalled version of Windows XP that I have never used. When I bought it, I even asked if they would sell it to me with no software, but was told it is not possible. It would be nice to be able to buy a laptop from Dell, save some money, and not support the M$ monopoly.

Re:curious

[RareButSeriousSideEf]

Good point. Also, forgive my cynicism, but how much of this was due to semi-organized request-bombing campaigns?

I actually run Linux on a Dell (albeit a used Dell), so obviously I'd be all for them offering preinstalled Linux, at least from a Rah-Rah for FOSS perspective. However, I doubt I'd actually *buy* a new Linux PC from them, and I'm sure that's more like what they mean when they speak of "consumer demand."

Re:curious

[networkBoy]

Besides using linux isn't that hard compared to installing it.
How easy is it for the average joe to install linux when it comes on the machine already, and has a recovery CD for when things get really ugly. Joe doesn't know how to recover a blown linux build, but he doesn't know how to do that on windows either, so that part is a wash.
-nB

Re:curious

[mackyrae]

Well, I don't know about "honest requests" but if there had been any major OEM offering pre-installed Linux when I got my laptop, I would've done it. I know there are Linux OEMs, but economies of scale mean they cost an arm and a leg. As it is, I want to try to get a Windows refund.

Oh, this only goes for laptops. If you can get a Dell desktop without their terrible squishy keyboard, count that in too. If you're stuck with those pieces of junk, no Dell desktops. I'm gonna go request nicer keyboards on their site. I hate suffering through using those squishy keyboards. What happened to clicky? To be fair, Lenovo makes the best laptop keyboard, though I recently saw (felt?) a really nice HP one. Too bad Dell hasn't figured out how to make a keyboard the clicks properly.

Re:curious

[KKlaus]

Yeah or how important the fact that it suffers from the voluntary survey bias, i.e. people that want preinstalled linux are disproportionately vocal complainers (*ducks*). Anyhow, the whole thing is kind of masturbatory for slashdotters. We know the average consumer, and we know the average consumer isn't interested in preinstalled linux, and that the crowd that is is a fairly small minority. So great there was a statistically meaningless survey. Hopefully it reminds Dell of their dumb policy, but other than that, there's not really much news here.

Re:curious

[slapys]

I think that many on Slashdot are stuck on the idea that people must be programmers or hardcore geeks to want to install Linux on the desktop. A friend of mine has shown me that this isn't true. He is what many would describe as a "Windows power user" in the XP days. He knows registry tweaks, how to run msconfig to stop certain applications from starting (as well as other DOS commands), get all the software he needs from BitTorrent (DC++ before that was around), and generally run his own machine and get the maximum horsepower out of it. I would describe his desktop hardware as not top of the line...he's running a 1.6 GHz processor I believe (which was pretty fast back in the day), 512MB of RAM, and an nVidia video card that is maybe 4 years old. By the way, this guy is a Marketing major, and does not program or study engineering of any kind.

About a week after Vista was released, he hit me up on AIM and asked me how to install Linux on his desktop. I was surprised to say the least, because even though he has many Linux-using friends, including myself and my roommate (disclaimer: we are both Computer Science majors), he had always laughed me off when I had told him to try Linux before. I pointed him to the Ubuntu website, and now, two days later, he says that he is happy with Ubuntu and will probably stick with it indefinitely.

Given that I struggled with various Linux distributions for maybe 8 months before I found user-friendly Ubuntu, I was somewhat miffed that he had made the switch entirely within two days. He performed the install on his Dell laptop, and he reported that the wireless worked immediately, as well as suspend/hibernate support. After the second day, when I gave him some instructions on how to install software with apt, he had his laptop hotkeys (volume up/down, mute, web browser etc.) working, all the multimedia players that he would need running, and pretty much everything else he would need.

I asked him the primary reason that he had decided to switch; he replied that Vista had left a bad impression on him. That was it. He is considering upgrading his desktop soon, and he told me that he will definitely ensure that he buys one with Linux pre-installed and configured. As more and more people use Vista, a fraction of them will find it not to their taste and make the switch. Therefore, the demand for these OEM Linux desktops is bound to increase.

Re:curious

[Jonny do good]

My question about this is similar. People that would like Linux pre-installed are probably more likely to suggest it on their new web site. People with no interest in Linux are probably less likely to complain about anything because they have are likely to not know what to complain about. A better way to figure out what customers want it to ask them when they call.

I would be happy to buy a Dell with Linux pre-loaded and welcome the idea, but I am not sure taking a vocal computer savey group as representative of demand is really much of a way to determine which products to offer. It's kind of like taking an online FOX News poll as representative of the populous... sure they are the most watched news channel but they are the only major conservative (by American standards) news network in the U.S. and therefor don't have many liberal minded people visiting their web site. I think this article fails to prove that there is much demand for preloaded Linux boxes.

Re:curious

[JoeZ99]

The main issue is not 'preinstalled' linux or 'promote linux penetration', the main issue is:

you sell laptops, not software

I bet a very important part of dell's success is its story of 'consumer choice' from the begining

If someone does not want OS at all, there is no technicall issue in wiping it out, no extra cost

So, why push people into buying something they don't want??

Not just 'offering' a new product, I'm talking about "Don't make me by something I DON'T WANT"
The only reason I'm able to figure out is: somehow microsoft push dell to make dell push users and that's not good. That's evil, but you already knew that.
I just switched (with pain in my heart) from dell to hp a few days ago, after recommending 4 brand new xp dells to friends of mine, just because I couldn't avoid dell selling me that @#!!@## of windows Vista

Re:curious

[RareButSeriousSideEf]

I should have added that I don't really buy any preinstalled OEM jobbers anymore anyway. If I need new, I build it, and if I can get away with something that's a year or two old and a bunch cheaper, then I'll buy used & start with a new HDD. But in my earlier days when I was buying from Gateway, yeah, maybe I would have considered Linux to be a "real" option if it was offered as one by a big-brand computer maker (though I had a lot of other factors pulling me into MS lock-in even back then).

I think this is true for many would-be OEM Linux desktop consumers, but as you point out, laptops are a different arena, and there I would *definitely* consider a preinstalled Linux option given a solid offering when I'm in the market.

Coincidentally, Dell makes (made?) the only keyboard I've ever liked enthusiastically; model SK-8135. It's one of the first keyboards I've used that doesn't slide around when I type; the page up/page down/delete/end/home cluster is laid out the way I like it (3x2 horizontally, old skool), its footprint is cropped tight around the outer edges of the outermost keys, and the keystrokes just feel "solid" (I swear the thing must weigh over a pound). The keys are kinda quiet though, so if that's what you mean by "squishy," you might not like this one either. If the SK-8135 happens to be what you have & want to get rid of, well... I'd be happy to take it off your hands!

Re:curious

[alc6379]

If someone does not want OS at all, there is no technicall issue in wiping it out, no extra cost

There's not a technical issue, no, but there is a financial issue: When you don't have all of the factory installed promo/demo software bundled on a system, you lose out on revenue that those companies were paying you. How do you think they got the price down so low, after all?

Re:curious

[eno2001]

Funny that... And why is it that you wouldn't buy a Dell with preinstalled Linux? I'll tell you why, because I wouldn't either:

1. Preinstalled Linux is going to make assumptions about what you want to do with your machine. If you're a typical Linux user you want a LOT of say about what your machine is going to do, so this is a bad match from the start.
2. Preinstalled Linux is very likely going to be based around a mainstream distro. If you're a typical Linux user you aren't going to want the restrictions that most mainstream distros force upon you. For example, I believe with RedHat Enterprise Linux, you CAN'T just install whatever bleeding edge stuff you want without losing support.
3. The hardware in the system is likely to be a little lower in quality than what a typical Linux user might want as the mainstream PC manufacturers are long on cheap hardware and short on quality.

Where I work, we ordered an Intel server from HP a while back and requested RHEL 3 as the OS. We got it, but... we wound up blowing away the pre-installed OS and throwing Gentoo on it as that's MUCH better in a production environment where you live on the bleeding edge. At home, I bought an HP Athlon 64 Dual Core system. It came with Windows MCE 2005. I promptly wiped it and threw on Gentoo and Xen and turned it into a powerhouse server that is currently hosting almost ten virtual machines all with native performance speeds and all hardware supported (expect the NVidia card which I've been trying to patch the driver interface on). Now, keep in mind, I'm not a programmer, I'm just a typical user. So it's very likely that because of my needs I won't be buying a preinstalled Linux system from Dell anytime soon.

Re:curious

[Eivind]

You can only vote twice for the same option if you delete your cookies *and* get a new ip-adress. This ain't impossible (not even hard) but it's probably unlikely that very many have bothered.

Re:curious

[lixee]

I use Linux at home, but it sure isn't on a Dell box; I built my own, as I guess a lot of Linux hobbists do.

I use Linux on two Dells and an iMac.

if they offer it and no one buys it, it just gives them and other retailers a reason not to offer it and will make it harder in the future to get pre-made Linux boxes from the major sellers.

If nobody buys them right now, what makes you think they may buy them in the future? The prospect of a stable Beryl/Compiz?

Re:curious

[Dan Ost]

Even if you're not going to use the installed version of Linux, buying a Linux pre-installed machine
makes sense because you can be more confident that the hardware will be supported by the kernel.

This assumes that the OEM will choose parts that are supported by the installed distro. If that's true,
then any distro should run fine since the kernel is the same.

Re:curious

[Dan Ost]

My work machine is a DL600 with Gentoo installed. It's a nice little machine (if a bit dated), but it
has a crappy keyboard and a broadcom wireless chipset (so I had to use ndiswrapper until kernel 2.6.17).

I understand that the newer dell laptops have better keyboards, so when I upgrade my personal laptop,
I might consider a dell if I could be confident that all the hardware had Linux support. If they sold
laptops pre-installed with Linux (even if I had no intention of using the installed distro), I'd be
far more likely to choose one of those laptops just to avoid any hardware headaches.

Re:curious

[VdG]

I run Linux on my Inspiron. One of the reasons I bought that model was that my research indicated that - generally - Dell laptops are fairly compatible with a range of Linux distros. I'm not all that interested in playing with the OS: my PC is just a tool for me to use. So if it had been available with Linux pre-installed I would almost certainly have been interested and it would certainly make it more likely that I'd buy another Dell laptop when I replace my current one.

Re:curious

[Steve001]

gravesb wrote:

I'm all for choice, and I think its pretty stupid of Dell not to have offered this before. However, I wonder how many unique requests there are, and how many people asked for that a 1000 times or so. I use Linux at home, but it sure isn't on a Dell box; I built my own, as I guess a lot of Linux hobbists do. But if this gets Dell to implement that option, then great. More Linux penetration is good. Of course, people have to follow up on it; if they offer it and no one buys it, it just gives them and other retailers a reason not to offer it and will make it harder in the future to get pre-made Linux boxes from the major sellers.

I, too, am surprised that Dell has not yet offered a Linux option for some of their systems. It would seem simple to allow the option of a custom-built system that is designed to run Linux well. That Dell has not offered Linux is the reason that I have not considered purchasing a system from them.

Re:curious

[batso]

I have one of these machines. The Dell bios is still broken and won't run 64-bit Linux.

Re:curious

[smilindog2000]

I'm running Ubuntu Feisty-Faun without any trouble. However, other distros have not yet been reported to work, SFAIK.

Re:curious

[AeroIllini]

I built my own, as I guess a lot of Linux hobbists do.

A geek not building his own computer is like a Jedi not building his own lightsaber.
 
/stolen shamelessly from someone's sig

Re:curious

[Eil]

This happened with the Inspiron 1100 laptop too. The BIOS that shipped with the laptop reported the wrong amount of video memory (4MB instead of whatever was allocated through AGP), causing X to refuse to go higher than 800x600. An X hacker created a patch that ignored this misreported amount, but after a year or so, Dell finally posted an updated BIOS that fixed the root problem.

One thing I will say for Dell is that they're actually pretty good about fixing bugs in their firmware, even if it takes awhile. Of course, it would be even better if they just tested the darn things on a decent array of hardware and operating systems before shoving them out the door.

Re:curious

[JoeZ99]

I heard about this a few months ago.
Michael Dell himself pointed that out
I also remember it was not too much, much less than Windows license, for sure
So, If I am given the choice, I would gladly pay those extra bucks given that I would save OS license costs.
The other issue is: maybe they get cheaper laptops this way, but they can also get cheaper laptops using more amd processor, or whatever laptop-related thing they want to do. But not this "I force my customers to try your software, and , in exchange, you give me some bucks" way, this is not what dell is, this is not what dell is famous for, this is certainly not the basis of dell's success (As far as I know, dell started precisely on the opposite: no retailers, just the customer choosing the components he wants straight from the supplier)

Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

I believe they'll have a harder time now with the tired old mantra 'There's no customer demand for Linux.'"

It's not so much that there isn't customer demand for LINUX, it's that there isn't a whole lot of customer demand for individual Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc. It's too much of a PITA to worry about qualifying all that different hardware with all the different distros and then worrying about dealing with Red Hat, Novell and all the different suppliers of what's basically a free OS.

Now, if they had a service like "I'll send you the Linux distro I want, please preinstall it on the next 500 computers you ship me," that could be big.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[SydShamino]

The request specifically says to offer just the top three free Linux distributions. Such a limitation is probably reasonable; if you know enough to not want one of the three most common versions, you can probably install your own.

On the other hand, inserting a customer-provided distribution into a limited run would be a nightmare for a company such as Dell; they'd have to maintain that particular flavor for a very small number of potential sales.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[chaoticgeek]

I wonder how hard it would be to create images of different installs and then just image the computers? Dell has lots of the same hardware so it should be easy. But I've been wrong before.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Chris Burke]

Oh, that's not the problem. They could easily just pick one distro and only offer it. The problem is that even that one distro involves spending money on qualification, help desk, and so on. Plus then you are pissing of Microsoft, and who knows what kinds of "cooperative marketing" dollars Dell gets from them.

It's pretty much the same thing as with AMD processors. For the longest time the official line was "There's no customer demand for AMD." Well, obviously there's demand, which is why they are bringing it up in the first place. What they really mean is "There's customer demand, but not enough for it to be worth the cost of supporting more than one platform, plus the loss from making our current single-platform vendor unhappy."

Basically, just like with selling AMD-based systems, there's no way in hell Dell is going to sell pre-installed supported Linux until the financial incentive to do so is simply undeniable. And even then, they will at first just use the threat of doing so as a lever to get more concessions from Microsoft. If history holds true, expect Dell to be the last major OEM not shipping Linux.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Dell does do exactly that. It's called CFI, Custom Factory Integration. They do this for hundreds of enterprise customers, where they deploy the customers OS, corporate or other image to the machines at the factory.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[zx-15]

I doubt that number of linux distros would make much difference. Any popular distro is based on the same kernel, and the only real problem is to get all the hardware working, especially wireless card. Then Dell would have master image for distro A B C D.... and just select the one customer requested, just like the choice between windows 2000 and winxp some time ago. Technically it's not a big of a deal, plus there doesn't have to be numerous distros just the most popular ones ubuntu, fedora, suse that's three. And the people who'd like to install other distros e.g. Debian would have a lot less hassle because of the availability of the drivers. Dell could also sell Ubuntu with 3 or so month of included support from Canonical.

Also dell doesn't have to provide tech support for linux, just the same it doesn't provide it for windows, and I suppose there will be the usual linux-related community to which would be possible to offload some tech support.

So the question weather preload linux in not technical, but purely political.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[nmos]

It's too much of a PITA to worry about qualifying all that different hardware with all the different distros....

I can't speak for anyone else but if I were buying a computer with Linux pre-installed it would just be as a sort of guarantee that there are Linux drivers available for the hardware. For that purpose it really doesn't matter what distro they choose.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: I work for Dell.

Believe me. If you order 500 computers, you can get any commercially available OS for a PC installed. It's called CFI or custom factory integration. Ask your salesperson about it.

The catch is that Dell will not support the OS unless it is one that is offered by Dell. Only the hardware is supported.

The difficulty is being able to support every distro of Linux. It's impossible. I say that one is picked, say Ubuntu and support that with proper drivers and support.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[thue]

While it would certainly be better than nothing, it wouldn't necessarily be much of a guarantee. I wouldn't be surprised if they shipped closed sourced drivers which only worked with the specific interface version of the Linux kernel which shipped with the preinstalled Linux OS. Or for example a printer could work with lpr via a closed source driver, but not with CUPS.

For it to really be a guarantee, the hardware has to have open source drivers and specifications available.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Bill Dimm]

if I were buying a computer with Linux pre-installed it would just be as a sort of guarantee that there are Linux drivers available for the hardware

Exactly. I recently bought a workstation with Linux pre-installed, and told the vendor to put it on a very small partition and leave the rest of the disk blank. I did my own partitioning and install on the rest of the disk, and just used their install to verify that things worked before I started messing around.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Chapter80]

Hmm... I've ordered quantities of Dell computers, and supplied the disk image. Never 500. More like 350 (in groups of 50 at a time), and their integration center pre-loads the image that we supplied.

It happened to be a Windows image, but my impression is that they would have installed any image that we requested, including Linux.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Jason Earl]

Heck, I don't care what distribution comes pre-installed. I only want to know that the hardware is well supported by Linux drivers. I would gladly pay extra for hardware that supported Linux.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[ryguy]

I think that supporting somthing like Ubuntu would not be a good business decision for Dell. If they truly wanted to offer pre-installed linux, they should support the OS. In order to support the OS they should probably pick only one. Their best bet is to partner with a company like Redhat or Novell so that they can support everything from the basic linux desktop all the way up to a multi-server clustered system on the same platform. (or similar platform anyway) Of course there would be a cost involved if they did this.

I would be something that more companies would be likely to implement on a workstation and server environment if they can get direct support for the OS from the hardware company.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[NtroP]

if I were buying a computer with Linux pre-installed it would just be as a sort of guarantee that there are Linux drivers available

I agree. I'd probably order it so that I'd have the support/license, but the first thing I'd do was re-install it from scratch to eliminate the cruft and crap that I don't want on it and re-partition things my way. One of the most compelling things about Linux IMHO is that you can really streamline and "tailor" a server to do exactly what you want it to, reducing overhead, security threats, complexity and other issues. For instance, I usually don't install any of the GUI components and tend to want to custom-compile my apache and php implementations. I could also take a stock system and do this, but I'd rather not have it installed in the first place and have the system clean to start with - I've had issues in the past where apache would be pre-installed in one location and I compile and install the new one elsewhere without realizing it (stupid me) and the next guy to work on the machine fired up the wrong instance (hilarity ensued *not*).

Of course, if could just be that I'm a control freak - which would explain my disdain for Windows.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[MoxFulder]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me! I'd be happy enough if Dell would simply support the hardware without charging me for a Windows license, which is basically the current situation if you order a Dell box and put Linux on it.

It would be *really* nice if Dell would do some basic work to document device-driver compatibility for their systems. So if I was configuring a Linux system online, I'd like to see something like:

Information in bold shows the availability of Linux device drivers for the selected components, based on Linux kernel version 2.6.19, x.org version 1.2.3.4, and CUPS version 5.6.7.8.

Video Card:

• NVidia GeForce Yadda Yadda (open-source driver for 2D graphics, closed-source vendor-provided driver for 3D graphics)
  
• Intel Extreme Graphics Foobar (open-source vendor-assisted driver for 2D and 3D graphics)
  

Wireless Networking:

• RaLink 802.11a/b/g card (open-source vendor-assisted driver)
  
• Intel Centrino foobar (closed-source vendor-provided driver)
  
• Broadcom Whatzit (no native Linux drivers, may work with ndiswrapper)
  

If Dell could do something like this, I'd give them *huge* props... and I imagine a lot of other Linux folks would to. I'd gladly order my next box or ten from them. It wouldn't even be that hard... I would guess that one guy working, say, 10 hours a week on this could easily document driver availability for all the hardware Dell sells with its desktop systems.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[westlake]

No, I think this was Linux flavors A, S, T, R, O, T, U, R, F.

Tell me about it.

This has the smell of the Bad Vista crapflood you'll find in postings to Amazon.com., etc.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Austerity Empowers]

Yet they have the same limitations we all do, namely certain companies refuse to open their device specs. Dell does not do ICs, so various graphics cards, sound cards and storage cards (the latter being most important in servers) either require closed source binaries, or, you elect not to use it. I don't think Dell or any system vendor should necessarily be in the position of writing and supporting those themselves, although it'd be swell to see them use their weight to make it come true.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Randseed]

The problem is that the various hardware vendors seem to have no interest in producing hardware (e.g., wireless cards) that have any support for anything outside of Mickey$hit Windoze. If Dell or someone could punch them in their pocket book and only buy hardware that has multiplatform drivers, it would be a good thing for the community as a whole.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[WindBourne]

For it to really be a guarantee, the hardware has to have open source drivers and specifications available.

Not really. They can guarentee it and support it. In fact, one choice for them might be to keep it closed until the cost of support on it is higher than the sales. At that time, open it up. Of course, the easier way is the OSS way; just open it from the gitgo.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[iamstretchypanda]

Also dell doesn't have to provide tech support for linux, just the same it doesn't provide it for windows, and I suppose there will be the usual linux-related community to which would be possible to offload some tech support.

The problem is they would need to set up a help-desk and train their staff. The help-desk consists of a large series of hierarchal questions and integrate them into their existing interface.

Staff training would be huge since most of their existing staff has been using windows their whole lives. The linux session would have to be more hands on, actually teaching the staff how to use it from the ground up (most have never even seen linux run). Also there is the problem of multiple distributions and training for each.

I'm not sure if the cost would be substantial or not, but they would also want to write some software to brand their computers they installed linux on (you know, the typical dell, hp, gateway, etc startup programs).

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[bcrowell]

I've bought four or five Great Quality brand generic PCs at Fry's with Linux preinstalled. In every case I immediately wiped out the distro that came on it, and installed something else. As you say, part of the reason was knowing that drivers were likely to be available; however, back before I got broadband, I ran into the fact that that wasn't necessarily the case. Those things had winmodems, and yes, there was a linux driver, but no, I couldn't find any documentation for what it was. (Well, the documentation may have existed, but Great Quality's web site is in Chinese :-) Not the end of the world, but I did end up buying an external modem.

For me, the main motivation was really (a) I didn't want my money going to MS, (b) I didn't want to help inflate MS's sales figures, and (c) even if I didn't mind about a and b, I've never seen a machine with windows preinstalled that you could buy for $180.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Drooling Iguana]

Making sure that a given piece of hardware will work in Linux means making sure that there's a driver for it. Linux drivers are contained within the kernel. All Linux distributions use the same kernel, or a slightly modified version of the same base kernel. Therefore, if a given piece of hardware works in one Linux distribution, it can be reasonably assumed that it will work in all up-to-date Linux distributions.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[wellingj]

I think Dell should concentrait on Debian instead of Ubuntu.
You get more trickle down that way while still having rocksolid OS.
Also Debian is one of the most standardized distributions and because
it is one of the most outspoken in term of free software you won't have
to concern yourselves with the problem of proprietry drivers. As soon as
Dell went Debian You'd see alot more open source driver because people would
want a peice of the Dell action, but would have to provide free and open source
drivers to fit in to Debian. Yea.....I can dream can't I?


If dell does Linux here is my prediction
45% chance of Suse because of the MS deal.
40% chance of Red Hat because they are the biggest vendor.
10% chance of Ubuntu because its making waves and will continue to make waves with CNR.
5% chance of Linspire/Freespire because it had CNR to begin with.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Kashif Shaikh]

"It would be *really* nice if Dell would do some basic work to document device-driver compatibility for their systems. So if I was configuring a Linux system online, I'd like to see something like:"

Do you know how HARD that is to do? Essentially Dell would have to QUALIFY every permutation of kernel (2.6.17, .18, .19), open source drivers, closed sourced drivers, etc. It's not just figuring out which "drivers work", but also verifying they work through test cycles. The last thing anyone wants is some driver that 'works', but under some stress or certain combination of I/Os causes hangs/stability problems.

Then your guy working 10-hours a day can do NOTHING, because of some blocker bug and has to wait from either the a) open source community, b) project maintainers, c) consultant, d) fix it himself, or e) find commercial vendor.

It's MUCH easier if Dell partners with a distro vendor and get customized drivers/patches needed to have the distro run on their boxes.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[ChunderDownunder]

In theory, as long as the kernel module isn't a binary blob specific to a kernel revision.

I once had a winmodem for which the vendor released a driver. They said it worked with 2.4.(x) but as the kernel API changed it wouldn't work with subsequent revisions e.g. 2.4.(x+1) The hardware vendor said they'd done their job. No upgrading to a newer kernel...

Maemo, Nokia's tablet OS, is built on Linux with binary kernel blobs. Users of the superseded 770 Internet Tablet have concerns that their tablet may be left behind if Nokia do not provide ongoing assistance with respect to these binary blobs. They mightn't be in a position to open source these drivers but could at least provide blob updates similar to the policies of Nvidia. Thus if and when Nokia formally drops support for these devices in terms of new development, at least their hardware might still work with kernel 2.8.x on community supported distro such as familiar or angstrom. (Already there's a separation between OS2006 and OS2007). I hope so...

Back on topic, I hope Dell's Linux friendly hardware does have open source drivers for all the chipsets. Video cards are a known proposition. But they may need to do a bit of work w.r.t. all the fancy 'designed for Vista' embellishments.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[flyingfsck]

Dell actually has that service. Buy one machine, configure it the way you want, then send them the disk drive and ask them to make you 500 machines, exactly like the last one, using the disk drive image - they don't care what is on the disk drive really - they'll just copy it, so make damn sure it works the way you want! In fact, they have on occasion done that for me with as few as 6 machines.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[sjlumme]

To me, the most important reason that I would like to see companies like Dell sell computers with Linux pre-installed is that this would force them to make sure the hardware is Linux compatible. I usually update to the new Ubuntu whenever it comes out, and I have learned to do so by just wiping the whole thing (I once fubar'ed everything with dist-upgrade); so a pre-installed computer would only save me from having to install Linux once. Besides, if the hardware is right, installing Linux only takes an hour or so. The main PITA is that computers ship with annoying pieces of Windows-only hardware (modems, WiFi cards, those sorts of things) or have bugs that happen to go unnoticed because Windows (or MacOS) doesn't use that particular feature (like faulty tables in ROMs of various sorts). Little things like that can turn installing Linux from a one hour operation into a one month operation, and I would rather like to know ahead of time that it is actually an operation that is possible at all. The manufacturer shipping the box with Linux is about as much assurance of that fact as I'm gonna want.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[ryanov]

I just bought a Dell Latitude D620. I would have ordered it with Linux, but was not able to from Dell. In fact, I would have preferred a Linux vendor, but the prices WERE higher due to economies of scale, I'm guessing, and also my boss was reluctant to order from someone that was different than what the university store sold.

In any case, though, there IS a vendor out there (EmporerLinux) that resells regular laptops (Lenovo, Dell, etc.) with Linux on them. For example, the Tiger D620 is the same as my laptop. This was enough proof for me that Linux worked pretty well on it (and that there might be enough information out there). I'm kinda sorry I didn't buy for them, but I didn't want to bicker with my boss over it.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[MoxFulder]

Do you know how HARD that is to do? Essentially Dell would have to QUALIFY every permutation of kernel (2.6.17, .18, .19), open source drivers, closed sourced drivers, etc. It's not just figuring out which "drivers work", but also verifying they work through test cycles. The last thing anyone wants is some driver that 'works', but under some stress or certain combination of I/Os causes hangs/stability problems.

Well, I'm not asking them to check *every* kernel. I'm just saying it'd be nice if they pick a fairly recent kernel and test against it. If they can tell me that some piece of hardware has an open-source driver marked "EXPERIMENTAL" in 2.6.19, that's a lot of googling I won't have to do right there.

One of the issues that I feel is holding back Linux support is the perception that vendors have to exhaustively and thoroughly support Linux for their effort to have any value. That's really not the case. Having a wireless card package state that "there is a Linux kernel module introduced in 2.6.17 which supports this device" would be HUGE... I would pick that card over another that I had to bring home and plug in and play around with before knowing if it would work or not. I don't think exhaustive corner-case-checking is necessary, as it completely fails to take into account the enormous advantages of open-source development: bugs in open-source software get fixed remarkably quickly and easily once identified, in my experience.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Chandon Seldon]

Canotical provides Ubuntu support on clients and servers. If you want some ridiculous cluster thing, that requires a differently structured OS anyway. I'm not seeing what the problem would be with Ubuntu on Dell - the lack of a license fee would save a noticeable amount of money.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Bill Dimm]

Just FYI, OpenSUSE 10.2 worked well for me out-of-the-box on the D620 (OpenSUSE 10.1 did NOT). Mine has a Core 2 Duo and Intel 3945 802.11a/g.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[bfields]

Dell does not do ICs, so various graphics cards, sound cards and storage cards (the latter being most important in servers) either require closed source binaries, or, you elect not to use it.

Yeah, but you can usually choose *some* hardware that supports linux, so for most uses it's possible to assemble a decent machine made completely out of parts with solid support by open-source drivers.

(OK, though the Intel graphics hardware is fine for my purposes--it gets me all the fancy new 3D desktop graphics, and at least basic 3D gaming--I'm told high-end graphics performance is one area where you're still stuck without free-software-supported hardware. Probably there's some other such areas. That's why I just say "for *most* uses"....)

And even as a linux kernel geek it can be a pain having to figure out for each piece of hardware what the current linux driver situation is. I'd happily pay a little extra to a vendor who'd save me the trouble by putting together a range of machines with hardware that was all guaranteed free-software-friendly. Unfortunately, a lot of the "linux friendly" hardware advertised is supported only by binary modules, so you can't necessarily trust pre-installed linux as a sign the drivers are open.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[bfields]

It's not so much that there isn't customer demand for LINUX, it's that there isn't a whole lot of customer demand for individual Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc. It's too much of a PITA to worry about qualifying all that different hardware with all the different distros and then worrying about dealing with Red Hat, Novell and all the different suppliers of what's basically a free OS.

Most hardware support is provided by the kernel, so all you really have to do is check for support in the mainline Linux kernel. Is it still possible that flavor E might have an older kernel, or a kernel that happened to have a regression in the support for some particular hardware? Yes, but if you choose popular hardware with available specs and well-maintained drivers included in mainline, then any rare problems are likely to be minor and fixable.

Now, if you're depending on binary-only drivers, that's where you really risk getting stuck with a very specific kernel version.... So don't do that.

Re: Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[Black Parrot]

> The difficulty is being able to support every distro of Linux. It's impossible. I say that one is picked, say Ubuntu and support that with proper drivers and support.

On their web site you can order Precision workstations w/ Red Hat Enterprise Linux installed.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[richlv]

actually, there is a solution to this, that seems to be the best to me (though given current situation, it might be slightly utopian...).

dell could start by selecting only components that are supported by vanilla linux kernel or other opensource projects (like sane, cups etc).
given their size, it shouldn't be too hard for them to convince single manufacturer in each are to get the drivers in a decent state (which is easier than before with the new linux kernel drivers initiative). this usually would require little more than releasing specifications. for faster results, reference hw could be provided to some key driver developers (that's usually cheap enough for the vendor :) ).

in such a case they could put _any_ distribution they want, and also advertise their computers as fully 'linux compliant'. consumers could just select whatever specification they want, without researching every single component for driver compatibility.

as for preinstalling - if full hw compatibility is achieved, that is much smaller concern, as now they can choose any one single distribution or several biggest ones, and preinstall those. that decision matters much less, though i believe slashdot would have a lengthy discussion on that ;)

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[miodekk]

As a matter of fact, they already did that. About 4 or 5 years a company I worked for bought a few Dell servers with RedHat Linux. We bought them with their PERC SCSI RAID controller. They supported it only on a few RH kernels with binary drivers. We tried to install debian on one of them, but ended up with a debian system with a Redhat kernel, because it was impossible to compile a kernel with the Dell driver or to ise that driver with anything but the Redhat custom kernel. A year or two later a proper driver appeared.. Regards

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[bwbadger]

"Disclaimer: I work for Dell. ...
The difficulty is being able to support every distro of Linux. It's impossible. I say that one is picked, say Ubuntu and support that with proper drivers and support."

In that case can Dell please just pick the one they like best and support that? As has been said elsewhere here, the key thing is to have supported drivers, I can then choose the distro I want to work with.

And for hardware support, surely it would not be so hard to require that people boot from a live CD when making a support call? That way the hardware could be checked out against a very stable benchmark significantly reducing the chance that system software problems obscure a hardware issue.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[daliman]

Well, if you're a business customer anyway (and who else wants that many?) then they've had that for years. We ordered 120 desktops and just sent them the image we wanted on the hard drive, the sent a test machine to confirm it was good (it wasn't, they sent another with corrections, it was) and then all the rest we shipped directly to the offices that needed them.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[ryanov]

Kubuntu has been fine too. Only problem I've had has been inconsistent: the screen will sometimes not come back on when opening the lid or coming back from sleep. It usually works, but sometimes does not. Actually, the other thing is that on Kubuntu, one needs to boot, fail to start X, and then change the display driver to 'vesa' -- perhaps in text mode, this would have been easier.

Wireless was detected automatically, as was sound. I guess the only thing I had to do anything special for were the screen (915resolution) and the modem (the Linuxant drivers work fine, but they cost $19.99 which I have not paid yet).

I haven't gotten WPA with LEAP working yet though. NetworkManager 0.6 does not support it, and 0.7 hasn't come out yet apparently.

Re:Linux flavors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.

[G Morgan]

A big advantage to business is that Ubuntu makes no differentiation between premium and community products. They can give their workforces copies of exactly the same software without paying any further fees. The same does not happen with SLED and that fact should be a big selling point for Ubuntu in future provided they can prove they have the people in place to handle support.

lolz

[abscissa]

Just reading through those suggestions, ... I can promise you that 95% are not going to ever happen.

e.g. no preinstalled earthlink? You think they do that out of kindness to earthlink, or maybe earthlink pays for it?

Re:lolz

[blindd0t]

...The parent post brings up a very important point, however. I suspect the reason why they haven't already offered pre-installed Linux computers is because they have not figured out what additional commercial offerings they could provide on this platform to earn extra money. Though I'm sure this provides them some extra bucks, I imagine it may also have at least some part in lowering the overall cost of the computers they are trying to sell, which helps make them competitive. Imagine this scenario: 'Computer A' is bundled with Windows and a bunch of crap you and I don't want, and costs $399; however, 'Computer B' which consists of exactly the same hardware is bundled with Linux and no third-party programs is offered at $499. While us Slashdot folk may be willing to spend a few extra bucks not to have that "crap" pre-installed, the "average Joe/Jane" would most likely see the lower price as the bottom-line.

Requests != demand

[StikyPad]

I believe they'll have a harder time now with the tired old mantra 'There's no customer demand for Linux.'"

Assuming, of course, that this wasn't a campaign launched by F/OSS zealots. For some reason, vocal minorities are often confused with silent majorities. I'll put more faith in this alleged consumer demand when Linux boxes start outselling all other systems by a 2-to-1 margin. In fact, I'd be amazed if they even sold at a 1:2 margin. It would be a pleasant surprise, but a surprise nonetheless.

Re:Requests != demand

[Xzzy]

Yeah no kidding. A self-selecting population with a big motive to push their agenda given a direct line to a company's future product offering? Not exactly a scientific test.

I wonder what percentage of the votes are the results of ballot stuffing.. something extremely common for online communities that discover online polls.

Re:Requests != demand

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll put more faith in this alleged consumer demand when Linux boxes start outselling all other systems by a 2-to-1 margin. In fact, I'd be amazed if they even sold at a 1:2 margin. It would be a pleasant surprise, but a surprise nonetheless.

Stupid. Just because it's the most demanded system, doesn't mean it will outsell what's around now.

Re:Requests != demand

[profplump]

You're correct in assuming that most people buying machine from Dell probably *are* happy without a pre-installed linux configuration option, but that doesn't mean the statistics in the poll aren't representative of some portion of Dell's actual machine-buying customers, or that the poll results are somehow rigged or invalid. All the statistics say is that, of people not happy with the existing configuration options, the most popular change request is pre-installed Linux, not that most customers would prefer Linux to Windows. Having Windows pre-installed is not a change, and therefore that configuration option is not represented in the statistics.

Re:Requests != demand

[Jherek Carnelian]

I'll put more faith in this alleged consumer demand when Linux boxes start outselling all other systems by a 2-to-1 margin. In fact, I'd be amazed if they even sold at a 1:2 margin.

Both are ridiculously high bars to measure up to.

No one is asking for Windows to come pre-installed, because it already does. It does not require any funny-business for a survey like this to be correct and still only represent some small fraction of total sales. It just means that of the services or products Dell does not currently offer, pre-installed linux is at the top of the list.

Re:Requests != demand

[evilviper]

I'll put more faith in this alleged consumer demand when Linux boxes start outselling all other systems by a 2-to-1 margin.

The 2:1 margin was for REQUESTS. Obviously, since they're selling Windows, nobody is going to REQUEST it.

So, no, it's not going to sell 2:1, or even 1:2, and it's stupid to think it should, based on this story.

HOWEVER, this story is misleading, as the "No Extra Software" (on Windows) is divided into two different options, and if vote were combined, would be about 80% of the Linux option. So, it's decidedly not 2:1.

Re:Requests != demand

[jesdynf]

You put a radio button that reads "( ) OpenOffice, FREE ( ) MS Office, $49.99 Dell Discount Rate" and we'll talk about consumer demand.

Re:Requests != demand

[AusIV]

HOWEVER, this story is misleading, as the "No Extra Software" (on Windows) is divided into two different options, and if vote were combined, would be about 80% of the Linux option. So, it's decidedly not 2:1.

Actually if you look at it, slots 2 and 4 are no extra software, but 1, 5, and 6 all make mention of Linux. At the time of this writing, options 1, 5, and 6 total 23,535 votes, options 2 and 4 total 14,243, a ratio of 1.65:1.

Re:Requests != demand

[nine-times]

Well the question, apparently, was about requests not-currently offered by Dell. It's not saying that Dell is getting more requests for Linux than they're getting Windows purchases. It's nothing of that sort. Just, "out of things currently not altered by Dell, what would you like to see most?"

I'm not surprised that Linux would win this legitimately. Alternative operating systems, including Windows 200/XP now that Vista is out, would certainly be among my top requests. And anyway, even if it it is a "vocal minority", that's not meaningless. The silent majority is probably fine with Dell's current offerings. At least, they don't seem to care enough to say anything. Sometimes it's worth wooing the vocal minority too.

Re:Requests != demand

[westlake]

I'll put more faith in this alleged consumer demand when Linux boxes start outselling all other systems by a 2-to-1 margin. In fact, I'd be amazed if they even sold at a 1:2 margin.

Walmart.com tried to make a go of every OEM Linux distro known to man.

January 31st came and went with one lone Xandros box remaining ---buried deep---and thirty Vista systems ready for sale.

Re:Requests != demand

[Tim C]

Essentially this says nothing other than that a number of people have filled in an online feedback form to say they'd like an option to have Linux preinstalled on Dell's computers. Unless the form is somehow restricted to only Dell customers, it doesn't even say that a percentage of Dell users want that option. Yes, most of them are likely to be Dell customers, but it's entirely possible (as the GP pointed out) that most or all of the responses are due to a vocal minority with an axe to grind.

That said, while I wouldn't buy one myself, having Dell offer preinstalled Linux would be a good thing. This story, however, proves nothing either way about the actual level of demand for such a thing.

Re:Requests != demand

[init100]

There is a difference between not caring for Linux and being hostile towards Linux.

Re:Requests != demand

[prelelat]

Even if the demand for Linux was decent it would still cost alot of money to go that direction. You would need to setup some kind of support network for linux, make sure that the configuration is setup for linux, and setting up imaging computers with it on the get go. Also all those applications that come with the computer when you buy a dell actually bring down the cost of the computer because they are basicly advertisment for those companies. The cost of buying a dell computer may even just go and stablize to the same price as if you had it come with windows(as I'm sure dell has a deal to lower the cost with microsoft seeing as they do the support for microsoft on their installed software). Also dell would have to make sure that all the drivers would work with linux as well and people would start complaining if the drivers weren't opensource.

It would be nice and there are some options at Dell if you like now. they have an option where you can get a computer loaded with freedos, also its not like Dell is anti-linux, on the server end they sell computers that come with Red Hat. http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/sol utions/en/precision_linux?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

The problem is setting up a support network for consumers, and the demand that the consumers will want. Its much easier to add a feature and train the existing support staff or to remove something than to institue a whole new operating system.

Re:Requests != demand

[MaelstromX]

Let's drop the charade that OO.o and MS Office are interchangable. I'm as big an open source fan as anybody but OO.o simply cannot compete yet. Read this bug report/feature request for an example; it's been almost five years and we've STILL waiting for some very basic statistical functionality in Calc. It's frustrating little things like this that require me to keep a copy of Windows & MS Office around.

Re:Requests != demand

[kbielefe]

Walmart.com tried to make a go of every OEM Linux distro known to man.

January 31st came and went with one lone Xandros box remaining.

That's because retailers like Wal-Mart only consider Linux to be a way to make their bottom-of-the-barrel computer even cheaper. However, Linux users are not the type to buy computers from the bottom of the barrel. And, at least for me, Linux allows me to go quite a while between computer upgrades. More than once I've heard of an OEM offering a decent pre-installed desktop Linux, decided to try it out the next time I buy a computer, then before I had a chance to try it they had already given up on it.

Re:Requests != demand

[jesdynf]

And Base is an offense before God and Richard Stallman both, what's your point?

I /absolutely guarantee/ that if you put that radio button there, eighty percent of Dell's residential customers will suddenly find they can manage to survive without Office.

Re:Requests != demand

[AusIV]

Read this bug report/feature request for an example; it's been almost five years and we've STILL waiting for some very basic statistical functionality in Calc.

Thank you for actually citing a problem you have with OpenOffice. Most people simply leave it at "OpenOffice sucks and that's all there is to it" without supporting their assertion in anyway.

While I will grant that OpenOffice has its shortcomings, its still more than lots of people need. I use OpenOffice, and aside from some formatting issues when opening MS Office files, it's always done what I need it to do. Personally, I'm more likely to need to put mathematical formulas in my documents, and OpenOffice makes that easier than MS Office does. My mother also uses OOo for writing the occasional letter, or making lists in Excel. My girlfriend's office needs are also met by Open Office.

If you need the more advanced features, you may have to buy a nicer office suite. I don't see many people claiming that OpenOffice is superior to MS Office, but for many users it is a satisfactory office suite, and I see no reason it shouldn't be offered as an alternative.

Re:Requests != demand

[westlake]

That's because retailers like Wal-Mart only consider Linux to be a way to make their bottom-of-the-barrel computer even cheaper

The poor weren't buying PCs at any price and the down-market image of the Linspire Linux box was a certainly a negative for Walmart. But not the only problem.

Microsoft positions Windows Vista as an integral part of the all-digital home.

The HDTV. The XBox 360. Windows Home Server. Etc. Strong after-market sales. Strong ties to other products. This makes the Microsoft OS very attractive to the direct seller or big box retailer.

Re:Requests != demand

[JoshJ]

I'll put more faith in this alleged consumer demand when Linux boxes start outselling all other systems by a 2-to-1 margin.

So you won't put faith in GNU/Linux demand until it takes 67% of the market? Are you nuts? I suppose you don't think there's any demand for OS X either, and it has a lot less marketshare than Linux would be getting if it got seriously pushed by one of the major manufacturers.

Furthermore, if you look at the votes given, the guest votes are all over the place, including a significant number not in North America. These votes haven't been rigged.

Re:Requests != demand

[kjart]

For some reason, vocal minorities are often confused with silent majorities.

Especially on websites that don't require any kind of registration in order to cast your vote. I can easily imagine these numbers have been inflated by being linked to from sites like Slashdot. Also, to give more meaning to this survey, it seems that 1 anonymous vote counted for 3 points (at least they did for me), so divide the totals by 3 to get the actual number of (anonymous) votes for each option.

Re:Requests != demand

[lahvak]

Well, I know bunch of people who use their computers for pretty important stuff, and most of them probably don't even have anything with the word "office" installed on their boxes. I myself have both MS Office and OpenOffice on my Windows laptop, but only use them for fairly unimportant stuff, like openning stupid memos from our HR department.

OTOH, I can see your point. Before OO came along, I always thought there cannot be anything that sucks more than MS Office, but most of the time, OO manages to do just that.

Re:Requests != demand

[schotty]

But did you look at what hardware was being provided? It sucked -- bad. Nobody wants a $200 computer that is hideously outdated already. 128MB of Ram sucks. I am a happy customer and reseller of Linspire, and that has been their plague -- cheapo crap computers. Nobody wants that -- not the geeks, nor the regular schmoes. Really, 512MB of ram is an understood minimum when dealing with recent revisions of all the OSs out there -- MacOS, XP, Vista (hah, more like a gig here ... but), any GNOME based Linux, any KDE based Linux. Sell garbage and dont be suprised that your sales figures are that. Middle of the road is what almost everyone I know (personally) wants -- not uber high end, nor riduculously low end either.

Currently the only Linux OEM that gets it is System76. And look at what they offer - decent systems for a very good price at the bottom end, up to what you feel like paying for. Thats what people want out of Dell, or Wal Mart, or Best Buy.

Re:Requests != demand

[westlake]

But did you look at what hardware was being provided? It sucked -- bad. Nobody wants a $200 computer that is hideously outdated already. 128MB of Ram sucks. I am a happy customer and reseller of Linspire, and that has been their plague -- cheapo crap computers.

Butt ugly, too, but that's another story.

Even with Walmart's enormous purchasing power, OEM Linux systems with arguably decent specs were not significantly cheaper than Windows.

Conspicuously lacking were attractive system bundles. The matching monitor. The multifunction printer. Free home delivery, in-home service under warranty, etc., etc.

But the most telling and inescapable problem was when Skype, WINE and Caldega began to be touted as reasons for choosing the Linux box. Pretty much an admission that the home user wasn't going to abandon his favorite Windows apps and that there were serious gaps in the Linux "catalog."

Re:Requests != demand

[profplump]

Which is all true. I'm just saying it's disingenuous to suggest that the poll was rigged or the statistic are invalid. They may be meaningless, but we have no reason to assume they are wrong.

Silly Linux Kids

[wframe9109]

Because the majority of "I want a PC I don't have to think about" buyers post on internet forums.

Right.

Re:Silly Linux Kids

[tantrum]

yep, much in the same way as every linux geek on earth bother to post in the exact same forum.

Right.

Nomatter how you try to twist this, it demonstrates to dell that it WOULD be a good idea to give the consumers more freedom in what they got installed on their new computers. Lately I've encountered large amount of non-techies that seems to start getting fed up with MS after all the bad publicity they are getting. If the computers were delivered as dual-boot systems, I'm pretty sure that the demand would be alot bigger than dell anticipates.

Re:Which distro?

[gormanly]

Dell ships workstations and servers with Red Hat Enterprise Linux preinstalled and re-sells the support contracts.

End-user boots up, configures their system (as they'd have to do with Windows on first boot) and logs in. The RHN updates icon tells them when patches are available (if they don't have a sysadmin to take care of all that). Easy as pie.

Um... why?

[ettlz]

No thank-you.

• What distro are they going to use? As many as financially feasible? I can hear the Gentoo hordes clamouring already.
• How old will this distro be?
• How do I know it's been set up correctly?
• What if I want a BSD?
• Do we really want to let people loose on Linux who can't [be bothered to] install it themselves?

I use Linux more or less exclusively, but I'd never buy a machine with it preinstalled. I've seen how badly a computer supplier can botch a Windows install. Just ship the box blank and accept that some people know more about certain things than you do.

Re:Um... why?

[LParks]

What if I want a BSD?

If you want a Blue Screen of Death, then just get one of their Windows options.

Re:Um... why?

[towsonu2003]

No thank-you. (...) Just ship the box blank (...)

If they ship Linux pre-installed, that means they included the proper F*all caps*G hardware that work with Linux... That means I don't have to look for Linux-compatible hardware with the idea "omfg, will they accept my return if it doesn't work?" in my head...

Now those who modded the parent insightful, please mod me *redundant*...

Re:Um... why?

[kosmosik]

In most cases whan Linux comes preinstalled it means that the hardware configuration is somewhat supported under Linux. And usually if something works with distro Foo it will work also under Bar (minus really weird stuff like binary only drivers for RH - but that also can be made to work with something different).

So I would like to see Dell offering "Linux compatible PCs with distro Foo as default or your choice of Linux (after manual install)".

As for pre-installs from vendors - they suck. I always wipe them out on new hardware rollups and fix them with own vanilla install of operating system. But one optimistic thing is that there is no crapware for Linux, yet. At least I haven't see one (maybe cause nobody ships Linux as preinstalled OS).

Re:Um... why?

[Coryoth]

What distro are they going to use? As many as financially feasible?

I expect they'll just pick one, two at most. If you aren't happy with the options provided... well you're no worse off than getting the computer with Windows on it are you. People can clamour all they want, I don't see how it makes much difference.

How do I know it's been set up correctly?

How do you know Windows has been set up properly? If it hasn't been set up to your very personal and exacting standards then feel free to reinstall. You'll have the minor bonus that all the hardware in the machine has drivers and can be made to work with Linux, which is a damn good start really. Having Linux pre-installed isn't preventing you from installing Linux the way you want.

Do we really want to let people loose on Linux who can't [be bothered to] install it themselves?

Yeah, sure we do. I would be quite happy to just buy a computer and not have to jump through the hoops of setting up Linux on it, let alone the trouble of worrying about the hardware configuration when I order it to make sure it will work properly under Linux. That means I am someone who can't be bothered to install Linux myself (providing someone else is willing to do all the work for me), and I've been using Linux on the desktop almost exclusively for 7 years or more. What I really want is something that just works. That means I might buy and Apple, but if someone can offer me a working out of the box Linux machine, well I would certainly consider that too.

I use Linux more or less exclusively, but I'd never buy a machine with it preinstalled.

I have used Linux more or less exclusively for many years, and I'd gladly buy a machine with it pre-installed. Sure it could, in theory, be a horribly botched install, but then at worst I can just re-install and have less work than I would had I bought a machine with Windows on it because at least I know all the hardware will work. Then again the install could quite likely not be botched, and then I can just unpack the box and have a nice working Linux box. That's definitely a good thing - I am not interested in spending long time tweaking everything to be just so anymore, I want things to work without fuss.

So sure, there are people like you who aren't in the target market for pre-installed Linux. On the other hand there are peopel like me who very much are in the target market. How many people are there like me? I don't really know. Apparently, however, Dell's request service found a lot of people who were willing to claim that they were interested in pre-installed Linux. Stop pretending that everyone is like you, and that your ideas are the only possible views.

Re:Um... why?

[loconet]

What distro are they going to use? As many as financially feasible? I can hear the Gentoo hordes clamouring already.

Does it matter? I'm guessing they'll choose the distro that is easiest for customers to relate to and the one that minimizes the need for Dell support.

How old will this distro be?

How old is their currently bundled version of Windows? At plain sight it seems like it would be easier for them to bundle an up to date distro than it is to bundle an up to date Windows. They control the hardware and Linux is available quiet easily. Not to mention Dell is amazingly good at changing specs and offerings on the fly.

How do I know it's been set up correctly?

It will work out of the box with all the hardware they provide? How do you know they setup Windows correctly?

What if I want a BSD?

Then you install one.

Do we really want to let people loose on Linux who can't [be bothered to] install it themselves?

Do we really want to continue letting people loose on Windows? Look where that has gotten us.

I use Linux more or less exclusively, but I'd never buy a machine with it preinstalled.

This move is not for you nor I. This is for people who don't want to bother with installing an OS and want their systems free from the MS tax. Bundling of Windows with new machines is one of the top reasons why MS has a monopoly in the desktop. People don't know there are alternatives. The plain fact that there may be an extra drop-down menu option for Linux is going to do wonders for consumers and the industry in general.

Re:Um... why?

[Kjella]

Do we really want to let people loose on Linux who can't [be bothered to] install it themselves?

Install myself, no problem. Finding the hardware to install it on, now that can be an interesting tale. Boot parameters, NDIS wrappers, kernel patches, x configuration and whatnot. Even if you wiped the drive, a preinstalled Linux would be a pretty good bet it's got well supported drivers, probably in the mainline kernel. There's plenty people that I would let loose on Linux that doesn't deserve to spend hours mucking around with hardware just to get it to boot.

Re:Um... why?

[MMC Monster]

Why not let Dell choose a single distribution, with an offer to sell third-party support for the distribution (selling Ubuntu with Canonical support comes to mind, or Fedora with Red Hat support).

Given the thousands of different distributions, they've got to make a choice and make some people unhappy. They might as well partner up with someone relatively big that already offers Linux support.

Re:Um... why?

[Dutch Gun]

Do we really want to let people loose on Linux who can't [be bothered to] install it themselves? And people wonder why Linux is struggling to find it's way to the desktop? This is marked +4 insightful, so I'm assuming that at least a few people agree with this. This is a perfect example of many Linux user's schizophrenic nature (or maybe it's just /.ers): Partially wanting to spread the joys of Linux to the masses, but at the same time reveling in our geekness to the extend of near guaranteed exclusion of non power-users. It would be nice if we just picked one and stuck with it.

Maybe a better question is (if we're indeed interested in bringing Linux to the masses): How can we create an installer that makes it impossible to mess up a Linux installation? or... Can we create a configuration utility that is flexible enough to easily alter anything we don't particularly like about the default installation?

Re:Um... why?

[tinkerghost]

Do we really want to let people loose on Linux who can't [be bothered to] install it themselves?

Do we really want to let people loose on Windows who can't be bothered to secure it themselves?
1 in 4 Windows boxes is currently part of a botnet. Hand out Linux boxes instead of Windows ones and at least we can kill off the bots for the "Email & Web browsing" crowd (about 1/3 of current residential users).

Include a Wireless Driver That "Just Works"

[aquatone282]

. . . and I'll order a Dell with pre-installed Linux too.

Re:Include a Wireless Driver That "Just Works"

[flacco]

http://www.system76.com/

Re:Include a Wireless Driver That "Just Works"

[AusIV]

To add to that, I bought a Gazelle a couple weeks ago and I love it. It had a few configuration hitches to work out initially, but the driver support is superb.

Re:Include a Wireless Driver That "Just Works"

[wellingj]

I bought a Gazell value and I've had no problems with it at all.
Wifi works. Video out works. Flash reader works. Only thing I had to fix was libdvdcss2.

To sum it up...My moms next computer is going to be a System76.
She said so herself after using mine.

How about...

[xaoslaad]

...getting back the tech support service I used to know and love them for. They've picked up a lot of bad tricks from Alienware, which has to have THE WORST tech support service I have ever seen. I am hoping this is one of the areas that will improve with Michael Dell returning to the company.

At this point (thought it is a little distant into the future) I seriously believe my next laptop will be a Mac. It's not that I necessarilly dislike Windows all that much, but the PC vendors are all becoming carbon copies of their HORRIBLE selves. It used to be one of the places Dell was better than the rest...

I'll just use Parallels/Boot Camp to dual boot/VM for those pesky Windows Apps/games, if there are still any at that point... And can keep Linux/Solaris VM's around if I want too. Best of all worlds on one machine really...

I think the #2 request is "no more Indians/phone"

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

I think the #2 request is "no more Indians on the phone". Seriously - check out: http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/61748 http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/61833

Now, honestly....I know that this may not be the nicest thing, but the biggest complaint I hear and have myself is that dell hires techs that sometimes I really can't understand at ALL. Come on people, promote this idea, wouldn't you like to hear someone who spoke english as a first language? No offense meant here, but I would just like not to have to reconfirm my service tag 5 times until we go over the "b for bowling" "g for gorilla" etc.

There's a danger in a company opening a forum like this when chances are small they'll ever implement more than a tiny fraction of these. People will be hopeful for a short time but then believe they're being ignored if there's no reaction.

Not that many votes

[Dan_Bercell]

14,000 votes means only 4666 people voted for it, and I can just imagine how many zelots voted multiple time (this isnt the first pro-linux website that has promoted this link)

I think the person who posted this link got a little excited over nothing. If anyone really believes that having Linux on the desktop is more important/popular to consumers then being able to speak to a 'John Smith' rather then a 'Abdule Ramakaiaky' for their tech support is out of their mind.

Re:Not that many votes

[LotsOfPhil]

I saw this in the FireHose and it was about 10k votes.

Re:Not that many votes

[wrook]

Nonesense! In reality we've outsourced our zealots to India and Cuba.

Although why the GP has a problem talking to people named "Abdule" is beyond me. All you have to do is install the proper localization packages and everyone you talk to is either Steve or Mary.

Re:Not that many votes

[temcat]

Shell scripts are already outsourced, too.

Margin Errors

[DesertBlade]

I don't thinks this is 100% accruate. Number 2 is "NO EXTRA SOFTWARE OPTION" with 8016 votes and number 4 is "Build computers not loaded with extra software" with 5102 votes which equals 13118. Which is almost the same as number 1 "Pre-Installed Linux | Ubuntu | Fedora | OpenSUSE | Multi-Boot" with 14641 votes.

Someone needs to clean up the voting an remove dups. There are some good ideas hopefully Dell will listen.

Re:Margin Errors

[Falstius]

There are several dupes of "install free software" too.

Ofcourse, anyone who expects Dell to install software for free is naive to say the least. Nothing installed on a Dell is free (either you pay for it or the publisher pays for it for the advertising). The price of Windows is subsidized by all of the annoying-ware that comes preinstalled.

What would be really nice is to have 5 options: Ubuntu LTS +$20, Windows Home +$30, Red Hat WS +$50, Windows Vista Pro +$100, no OS installed +$0.

Its not like Dell is afraid to add options to their order menu (there are about 1000 for 'accessories').

Web comments != paying customers

[RLiegh]

Just because a bunch of people on a web board request something, doesn't mean that it's a reflection of what people who are actually going to pay cash money want. It reflects that there's a strong desire for dell to preload linux and OpenOffice.org; but it's not necessarily a given that the people who are making that request are willing to shell out the bucks to buy a dell (especially considering the fact that most people who buy linux computers buy servers, and any desktop user who is competent enough to use Linux isn't going to settle for a prefab box, they're going to build theirs themselves).

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[Richard Steiner]

For a period of several years it often wasn't worth it for me to build a system out of discrete components because (a) pre-built systems were available with the most common hardware configurations I wanted and (b) those systems came with much longer hardware warranties than I could get from the individual component manufacturers, sometimes 2-3 times as long.

That's why I have a Micron box here, for example, and why I've purchased used IBM boxes in the past. Their IntelliStation line did what I wanted.

I haven't looked at Dell seriously for almost a decade, but I would if they'd give me the option to mot have a copy of Windows preinstalled on the box.

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[qzulla]

Or do like I did and install Linux on an old eMachines box I had cluttering up my closet. It is RedHat and, quite remarkably, everything works.

But my plans for a Linux server were shot down. It has only 3 gig free space on the drive.

But it did work.

qz

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[kosmosik]

> and any desktop user who is competent enough to use Linux isn't
> going to settle for a prefab box, they're going to build theirs
> themselves).

But nowdays most of "desktop" (meaning use) sales are laptops. I use laptops as my primary machines for few years. I've always been quite satisfied with IBM (now Lenovo) offerings. They always worked nice with Linux and are quite solid - my first TP T21 still works perfectly.

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[MeNeXT]

You are so right. The last time I bought or recommended a system to a client that didn't have Linux/*BSD support was...I just can't remember. Most systems are Windows but poor third party support limits my choices as well as my clients. Systems have become a commodity. The differences between suppliers are minimal.

The other drawback is that poor driver support for third party OS's tends to mean poor driver support for Windows. If not today then in the future. More than once I found myself at clients location where the client had no idea where the original Windows CDs were let alone the driver CDs. While you can find the generic driver, the one you need has been modified slightly to the suppliers specs and they no longer have the driver available on-line.

I don't have time to fill out surveys all I do is ask do you support Linux and OSS. If the answer is no I don't have time to waste, I find someone who answers YES.

If you are competent enough to use Windows you are competent enough to use Linux. Windows is harder to maintain. Every software needs to be administrator to install. Most commercial software installs unwanted sh17 that average users don't know how to remove. Which results in systems that grind to practically a halt. This idea that Windows users have that Windows is a godsend to computers is just plain nuts. The only thing easy about Windows is that it comes pre-installed on cheap hardware.

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[dueyfinster]

I dislike *throughly* the suggestion if your competent enough to use Linux, you should builld your own pcs. I have not built one PC in my lifetime and I *never* want to, I would buy a competitively priced Dell Linux box tomorrow if it were available.

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[smash]

any desktop user who is competent enough to use Linux isn't going to settle for a prefab box, they're going to build theirs themselves)

Not necessarily. You're excluding business users there. You're excluding laptop users. You're also excluding a lot of ubuntu users. You're also excluding those of us who have built systems for the past 15+ years and really can't be arsed with it any more (for a standard no-frills box), if there's a reasonably cheap warranty-supported option out there.

My next system is going to be a Mac, or a laptop. Both of which I can't build myself and are pre-fabbed. Both of which will at some point run Linux.

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[mrmcwn]

Competence aside, I kind of doubt the 24 000 or so Linux requests they have received would drive their marketing department to start a major campaign. They probably lost that many computers in shipping this week.

The inherent bias with the type of forum they set up (already computer savvy, /. types, OSS fanboys, etc.) hardly speaks to their largest potential customer base. And as someone below rather bluntly points out, if I am buying a red car I don't need to ask for red paint. That said, the fact that they could charge for Linux (by reducing the price by less than the cost of the Vista license) would help their margins on a limited product line.

They'll no doubt (continue to) offer Linux, but unsupported and in a limited number of configurations (or empty boxes with a distro on DVD for you to install). Or they'll do what they do with the rest of their preloaded junk - offer to preload it to the highest bidder (SUSE or Red Hat would be my horses in that race...).

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[Cederic]

Agreed. I spec out my own desktop tower machines, choosing the components, ensuring everything meets my needs. Then I find someone to build it for me.

Cost of components if bought from different suppliers is maybe £50 different than buying from the same provider. Cost of having them build the machine is £40-80. Is it really worth £130 tops on a £2200 machine to go through the hassle of testing (and replacing) all the components, building the thing, having a shorter warranty, tidying the cables, etc? Not to me.

Re:Web comments != paying customers

[Infinityis]

I respectfully disagree. The notion of "pay cash money" doesn't make too much sense when this option would/should actually save cash money.

Also, the competence required to run Linux is no longer astronomical. This past weekend, I installed PuppyLinux on my grandfather's laptop because the Windows XP install my dad did was too slow to be usable. I pointed out the icons to click to run various apps and he was quite pleased (especially with the speed boost). It would be nice to fix family computer problems in one broad stroke by saying "Just buy the Linux version". Anyone who wants more than what Linux can offer (like high end games) will be competent enough to overwrite it with a Windows install or set up dual boot---or just buy the Windows option and not need family tech support.

Too late...

[flacco]

i'mm happily tapping away on my System76 Ubuntu system (http://www.system76.com).

Re:Too late...

[Immercenary_2000]

Offtopic but...

I've been looking for a new laptop and I've run across System 76's linux laptops. I'm seriously considering buying one in the next couple of months. As someone who has bought one, what do you think of the quality of the machine? If you've ever needed to call support was it a good experience?

Re:Too late...

[flacco]

I've been looking for a new laptop and I've run across System 76's linux laptops. I'm seriously considering buying one in the next couple of months. As someone who has bought one, what do you think of the quality of the machine? If you've ever needed to call support was it a good experience?

good machine, good price, everything just works. i had a couple minor problems (one, delayed delivery of a nonessential "supply" item i ordered with the laptop; the other, just a really stupid oversight on my part that was promptly pointed out to me), but they were quickly taken care of through through their forum on ubuntuforums.org - response time is very fast.

What people say and what they do

[sjbe]

I believe they'll have a harder time now with the tired old mantra 'There's no customer demand for Linux.'

Maybe but as a business owner I can tell you that what people say they want and what they are actually willing to fork over money for are often very different things. Dell does $60 billion in revenue annually which means Dell needs a huge number of people to buy linux equipped machines for it to be worth the investment. To keep Wall Street happy they'll need to grow around 14% next year. (very rough growth estimate based on year over year quarterly revenue growth) That means Dell needs to find about $8.4 BILLION in new sales next year or their stock goes in the crapper. Is there enough demand for linux to be a substantial part of that growth? Maybe, but it seems unlikely. Dell offering linux is really just them buying an option in case linux really takes off in the market. Probably worth doing but I wouldn't expect Dell to really push the issue.

Please don't get me wrong. I hope Dell hits a home run by pre-installing linux. I think it would be great for consumers. I'm just pointing out that what people say they want and what they actually buy are very often not at all the same. I'm sure Dell would be thrilled to not have to fork over giga-bucks to Microsoft but I doubt they are counting on it happening.

Which distro?

[seebs]

It's ridiculous. While "Linux" may be a large market, each individual Linux is going to appeal only to a subset, and furthermore, users may not know which one they want. How do you know whether you want Linux Home Basic, Linux Home Premium, or Linux Ultimate? Or, if you run a home business, maybe you need Linux Enterprise or Linux Business. If you're not sure, maybe you should try Linux Starter, but I'm not sure you can upgrade.

No one would ever expect a commercial product to succeed with that kind of internal market fragmentation, I don't see why they think it'll work for Linux.

Are you a Dell call center employee? ;)

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

...the question weather preload linux in not technical, but purely...

C'mon, admit it. You're writing this from a Dell call center in India right now.

Please vote for OpenOffice option

[dokebi]

I think preinstalled OpenOffice would do more to promote Open Source and MS Alternatives than anything else. Linux is still unsuitable for casual users with other casual users as friends. For an average user wanting to run business apps or games, Linux/Wine/QEMU just isn't as friendly nor has the "ask your neighbor" tech support that you'd get running Windows.

With a default OO install, there will be an instant install base of ODF. It'll do wonders for adoption of the format. Other manufacturers might even follow Dell, seeing how Dell can add functional software with minimal cost, leading to even more adoption. Business users might purchase MS Office anyway, but the home users and small businesses needing basic office needs would benefit in a real way without spending more money.

So please, vote for OO.o. Having Dell install linux by default might be really cool, but voting for OO.o would help both Open Source awareness and adoption.

Re:Please vote for OpenOffice option

[Ash-Fox]

Linux is still unsuitable for casual users with other casual users as friends.

Yet nine year olds, people in their mid-30s, heck even my sister is able to use Linux here. Sorry, something doesn't add up with your statement.

For an average user wanting to run business apps or games, Linux/Wine/QEMU just isn't as friendly nor has the "ask your neighbor" tech support that you'd get running Windows.

Most of the advice I hear from other people tends to be bad anyway, causing more problems...

Re:Please vote for OpenOffice option

[dokebi]

Don't get me wrong. I'm writing this on an Ubuntu box, running FreeBSD on the home server, etc. Believe me, I have tried to switch people from Windows. But when a live in girlfriend can't get certain things done without my help, that's a problem.

Re:Please vote for OpenOffice option

[Architect_sasyr]

I've succeeded in converting a few people to OO. They have gone back to MS Office for one reason: speed. Even with the speed loading tools and a decent machine it still runs slow. I've not looked into it, but OO is done in Java I think (shoot me down if i'm wrong). Fix up the speed, remove the annoying "this is a MS office format you are saving in" and I believe that OO will get a better market share and quicker.

My $0.02 AU.

Re:Please vote for OpenOffice option

[Ash-Fox]

I've not looked into it, but OO is done in Java I think (shoot me down if i'm wrong).

*Head shot*

Re:Please vote for OpenOffice option

[smash]

"Base" (the db component) is actually written in Java. So it's not a totally true statement that is isn't :D

Re:Please vote for OpenOffice option

[westlake]

I think preinstalled OpenOffice would do more to promote Open Source and MS Alternatives than anything else.

If the throw-away ("free as in beer') OEM WordPerfect install had no significant impact on OEM Office sales, what makes you think OpenOffice will fare any better?

Requests from some doesn't mean much

[ThousandStars]

If we took all the fulminating from Maclots like me about what trash Windows is, we'd probably assume that no one save an idiot would use it. And yet Windows is still the behemoth with more than 90% of the computer market. Judging what Dell's customers want from what those sufficiently energized and invested say on a website isn't perfect.

Many of Dell's customers may very well want Linux. But you can't generalize from this survey to all of Dell's market is foolhardy.

Re:I think the #2 request is "no more Indians/phon

[xlsior]

I think the #2 request is "no more Indians on the phone".

They already offer that, it's just phrased as "Gold Technical Support", and costs you an extra $80 or so.

Certification would be better than install

[Bill Dimm]

I don't think I would want Dell, or anyone else, doing the install for me, since I want to handle partitioning and package selection myself. It would be nice if each model said something like "certified that all hardware works with Linux Distros X, Y, and Z out of the box" so that I wouldn't have to hunt that info down myself.

Re:Certification would be better than install

[jon_anderson_ca]

Having the box come with Linux on it *is* a guarantee that the hardware works with Linux. If I don't want RHEL, I can install the Linux I want. This way, I know that the hardware works, and there's no Microsoft tax. It's still better than buying Windows.

Re:Certification would be better than install

[Bill Dimm]

Having the box come with Linux on it *is* a guarantee that the hardware works with Linux. If I don't want RHEL, I can install the Linux I want. This way, I know that the hardware works, and there's no Microsoft tax. It's still better than buying Windows.

Actually, it is a guarantee that Dell got some sort of Linux to work on the hardware by some means (maybe involving the addition of proprietary drivers) -- it doesn't guarantee that your preferred distro will work when you install it, or perhaps it will work only after a lot of effort. Having Linux pre-installed is a good sign that the hardware is Linux-friendly, and I even mentioned it in another post, but it comes up short of being a guarantee that you'll be able to easily do what you want.

Anyway, my point was that if people are ultimately going to do their own install, rather than use Dell's, having Dell actually perform the install is an unnecessary step. It would probably be easier for Dell (therefore more likely to happen) to provide certification, and would be sufficient for the user to get what he/she wants.

As for the Microsoft tax, that's really a separate issue. Dell already sells computers without Microsoft Windows, and they don't have Linux installed (if my memory is correct, they throw a floppy with a DOS clone into the box to satisfy Microsoft that the machine is being shipped with an OS).

Re:Certification would be better than install

[Advocadus Diaboli]

It would be nice if each model said something like "certified that all hardware works with Linux Distros X, Y, and Z out of the box" so that I wouldn't have to hunt that info down myself.

Then you would need to know what kind of "quality statement" the certification of hardware is. I'm doing Linux hardware certifications for a PC manufacturer (not Dell, not HP) and I know the certification procedures of Red Hat and Novell. The problem is that "certified" doesn't mean that the thing will work like you expect it. There are too many dependencies, and there is no chance to test them all because of the combinatoric explosion. So you might test a machine with hard disks from Seagate finding out that the same technology and capacity from WD doesn't work. The other problem is that customers imply things like "If the machine is certified then 3D accelerated hardware graphics should work". The certification tests for video are testing if the X server (even the vesa driver) comes up on the Red Hat side, Novell is just blanking the screen with DPMS and then seeing if it comes back. Of course the idea is that you can't run the tests if you don't have X working. But the idea behind it is that customers have other expectations than what the certification really is stating.

The other problem is that there are certification programs for enterprise level distributions, but there is no independent certification program for free distributions like Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE, Fedora and so on. So you would need to trust the statement of $VENDOR that the hardware is working with the distribution that you want to use. Such a statement implies a sort of support agreement and that means additional budget for every Linux distro that you declare as "working".

Re:Certification would be better than install

[jon_anderson_ca]

Yeah, that's true... they might resort to binary blobs.

Still, at least it would work... that's better than the Dell laptop that I'm currently running (I've had it for almost a year, and the Memory Stick reader still has no Linux driver). The "I just want my e-mail" user won't re-install, but at least I have a hope (even if it is very hard).

Re:Certification would be better than install

[mgblst]

Fine, then select no OS, or get Linux and install over it. What is the problem here. It is like you running to the ice cream counter and arguing with the guy because you don't want rum raisin. So what, don't get rum raisin, it is not that complicated.

Re:Certification would be better than install

[Bill Dimm]

Fine, then select no OS, or get Linux and install over it. What is the problem here.

There is no problem with having Linux pre-installed, except that it might be hard to convince Dell to modify their manufacturing process to achieve it. My point is that, if most people are just going to wipe Dell's install and do their own, certification may be good enough, and much easier to convince Dell to do.

Re:Crowdsourcing innovation

[stinerman]

With respect, the notion that anyone would demand royalties on advice they gave someone freely and without coercion is mad.

Yes, but will it happen?

[BertieBaggio]

Now, I want Dell to sell (and not just sell, but promote) Linux as much as the next Slashdotter, but I don't think this alone will necessarily convince them to do it. There was an insightful comment posted by compugeek on the suggestion in question:

This would be great, except that it really wouldn't be that much cheaper. OEM copies of Windows are inexpensive already, and the bloatware that helps Dell keep prices low is not necessarily compatible with Linux.

Head of nail, meet hammer. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case that Dell made quite a tidy bit of cash from those preinstalled trials. Symantec (or is it McAfee now>) especially - a lot of people just let their 6 month subscription expire*, but many will pay for more. Often you see comments about how Dell etcetera could knock $150 off the price by offering a Window-less solution where this patently isn't the case. Anyone care to point out how roughly much the OEM copy of Windows actually costs Dell per PC? (I say roughly as there is likely to be a special deal in effect for someone of Dell's magnitude).

To make things worse, Dell would have to update their tech support services to help Linux users as well as Windows users, which would be especially tricky considering that there are still some people who couldn't tell you which OS they were running even with step-by-step instructions.

Again true, but less of an issue I think. Training for tech support will be needed, of course; but after an initial cost, it shouldn't cost any more than supporting Windows, and one could make the argument that a Linux box is less likely to become infested with malware and hence less support requests. There are other considerations of course, but I don't see why there would be significantly more requests.

The comment about the user not being able to tell which OS will generally have is a tad cynical. I know users are stupid yadda yadda, but I would presume the OS's in question have obvious splash screens (Ubuntu does, can't vouch for OpenSuse, and I think Fedora does). A trivial matter in any case.

Dell would be a great company to help Linux gain ground, if they could offer tested Linux-compatible configurations. People associate Dell with easy, so if Dell could design a decent line of computers that came with Kubuntu (for example) pre-installed, they could probably sell it.

Dell have it in them to create an install of Linux that does indeed make it easy - if they did the legwork to make sure sound, video etc all worked properly (eg my laptop doesn't multiplex sound correctly in all cases, though this might be due to certain apps misbehaving; I don't have the inclination to investigate) and out of the box, it would be a damn good system for the email-and-browse-the-interweb crowd.

Of course, those 13 968 (at time of writing) won't all translate into direct sales, so it still may not make financial sense for Dell to do this. If they did though, the repercussions would be interesting. If it started gaining traction, it would start alarm bells ringing (not to mention chairs flying) in Redmond. You'd probably see more competitive licensing from Microsoft, heavier promotion of Windows Vista (or just the Windows brand in general), and possibly the strong-arm tactics we've all come to know and (not) love. It would also send a message to other OEMs that there was a viable market for Linux, so we would probably see similar offers from other system builders. If it really got going, it would also send an unmistakable message to the hardware manufacturers. Interesting indeed.

All that said, sadly it probably won't happen.

----------

*A friend of mine (a smart guy) bought a Dell laptop. Included was a 6 month trial of Norton. I told him to remove it and install a better AV because of performance issues, and it would end up nagging him. He says it wouldn't bother him. Flash forward to 6 months later and he is complaining about it slowing the likes of Battlefield 2, it tabbing him out at inopportune times, and just being a pest in general. Still he keeps it. Why don't folk listen or learn?

Hardware support

[AusIV]

As a user who just bought a System76 laptop, which ships with Ubuntu, I'd like to comment. In part, I agree - my computer came with a widescreen monitor and no option for any wide-screen resolution, it took a while to get that straightened out. The swap partition also had not been activated. I don't know that a non-technical user would have noticed either of these, let alone be bothered by them, but I did think it was a bit irresponsible of the distributors.

On the flipside, I have the comfort of knowing that there are open source drivers for every piece of hardware in my box. My other laptop took hours to get my graphics card and wireless card configured - and the wireless card still can't make use of 802.11 g.

While I wouldn't mind getting a box blank, I want to be damn sure it has well supported hardware. I would prefer to have something that just works (and is supported) out of the box, but is customizable for those with more experience.

Re:Hardware support

[despisethesun]

Not entirely on-topic: What would you say your experience with System76 has been with regards to both the hardware and the support? My old Vaio laptop has seen better days and I've been looking at System76 as I search for a replacement.

Re:Hardware support

[AusIV]

The hardware has been better than any other system I've put Linux on. I had to do a little bit of work to get resolution configured properly, and I had to activate my swap partition (though they claim this has been corrected for new systems). I got the cheapest laptop they had and I've not been disappointed. Hibernate and suspend work great, beryl works wonderfully and doesn't conflict with hibernate or suspend at all (it does on one of my other systems).

As far as support they've been awesome. There was a small issue and subsequent delay with regard to my order, so they bumped up my shipping a notch for free. I had a little trouble with resolution and my swap partition. I posted these to their forum on ubuntuforums.org, but I had solved the problems before a solution was posted (the solution was posted the following morning, I posted my question in the late afternoon), and I believe they are working on a widespread fix for both of these issues at the moment.

Right now, I'm doing some troubleshooting because my hotkeys (sound control, touchpad toggle, etc.) cease functioning after suspend and don't come back until I reboot. Based on past experience, I'd guess there will be an official fix for this by Wednesday afternoon.

The system didn't work straight out of the box quite as well as I had hoped, but it's the best experience I've had with a Linux machine so far. You'll know you're getting Linux compatible hardware, and the support staff is committed to getting things working for you. I would certainly recommend it.

And now I get modded off-topic. Oh well.

Dell Linux

[DeepBlueGlow]

The best way for Dell (or any OEM) to support Linux would be to start their own distro pre-installed, configured and optimized for the hardware they sell.

Re:Dell Linux

[Dan_Bercell]

Or work with an already established distro. For example: Ubuntu and HP would make a good team, Ubuntu already installs great on all current (not sure how many old models), provides all the drivers makes for a no fuss install. In fact if you install Windows on an HP notebook/workstation you have to hunt down all the drivers, if you install Ubuntu it just works without ANY tinkering

Re:Dell Linux

[lixee]

Too much overhead!

Shaving hundreds from the cost of a PC?

[frdmfghtr]

FTA:

Quality free and open source software drastically lowers the cost of new PCs, and helps prevent software piracy. For example OpenOffice.org, the Microsoft Office alternative, can shave hundreds of dollars off the price of a new PC.

With PCs starting from $360 to $650, can you really expect to shave "hundreds" off the price of a new PC? The $650 machine doesn't come with Office, and Dell probably only pays $60 or so per Windows license (anybody got firmer numbers?)

The savings may be modest at best, but at least there would be an option (and I didn't see anyplace that said Dell IS GOING TO offer Linux, just that it is wanted by the respondents).

Re:Shaving hundreds from the cost of a PC?

[AusIV]

Very true. Plus Dell gets paid to pre-install crapware on your computer (see requests 2, 4, and 6 at the moment) to offset some of the costs of the computer. If they're bundling Free software, they won't sell as much crapware, probably raising the cost of the computer.

Re:Shaving hundreds from the cost of a PC?

[smash]

FTA: Quality free and open source software drastically lowers the cost of new PCs, and helps prevent software piracy. For example OpenOffice.org, the Microsoft Office alternative, can shave hundreds of dollars off the price of a new PC.

With PCs starting from $360 to $650, can you really expect to shave "hundreds" off the price of a new PC? The $650 machine doesn't come with Office, and Dell probably only pays $60 or so per Windows license (anybody got firmer numbers?)

More importantly, how were you able to actually quote something that you did not read (or perhaps, comprehend)?

It specifically states that OpenOffice instead of Microsoft office will save hundreds of dollars on a new PC. It is implied that if you're using OpenOffice instead of MS-Office, you would have either paid for Microsoft office or pirated it. Of course it won't save hundreds if you order a PC with no office suite... that is not the situation described by the original statement.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[geekboybt]

Not to feed the trolls, but here goes anyways... Have you actually called their support? Or, a better question - are these actual servers (PowerEdge) or desktops standing in as servers? I've called them many times, for servers that only cost $1k to ones over $6k. Every time I've gotten an American English speaking rep from Texas. Yes, even on Christmas morning and the machine's technically out of warranty. Cheap desktops get you cheap support. Real servers get you real support. You get what you pay for.

Lack of Sales != Lack of Demand...

[Svartalf]

Unless there is a real option for more than very select versions then there won't be anywhere near the sales of those systems.
Dell offers Linux or no OS on select models because of Windows Licensing reasons. They've got special BIOS tags in the HP/Dell/etc. machines that make for "easier" installation of XP and Vista- and they have to have different BIOSes for the Linux/No OS boxes. Since the bulk of their line is Windows-Only, they've only made up and verified select models for the other option, which is why they don't seem to offer the configurations like they ought to.

The REAL reason Dell doesn't have as much of a demand for Linux systems is they don't offer as good a models in many cases- people just don't give them a second thought for server machines or desktops in many cases. Since they don't have a "demand", they don't realize that there's a real market so they don't offer machines to buy that're worth a damn, which stifles demand, and round and round we go...

It's a vicious circle that they and many other companies have gotten themselves into with keeping to mostly Windows.

Re:Which distro?

[catprog]

that was sarcasm right?

Hey Brutus!

[copponex]

Do you ever want mainstream driver support? Stop whining like a child whenever someone offers a service that includes Linux that isn't perfect for your needs. You need to a mature a little bit, and that involves coming to the conclusion that what's best for you may not be what's best for someone else. One thing I'm sure of is that it wouldn't hurt the Linux community to have highly visible desktop Dell support. I suspect you'd rather feel superior about your operating system than help the community that develops it.

\dev\null to dell catalogues

[sjwest]

We get the dell offer booklets, they are automatically binned in the recycle box.

I might be a zealot in Linux department but i've heard too many other bad stories about Dell.

Sure i could buy Dell - and hope that i can get standard drivers for say fc'x' that work but then i'd have to borrow a digital camera and document that i never ever pressed "i want to have s e x with Steve Balmer now" and then spend 5 hours plus talking to an array of indians at dell in order to get back the $30 windows tax back per dell pc.

Look I didnt know about the dell ideas site and don't care about Dell. So Dell don't get our hardware orders - do we care no.

Windows works for some folks. Linux works too, conclusion Dell does not want our money - thats fine by us.

dhart submissions all over the place.

[Short Circuit]

It's a Digg-style ranking site. And items one and three were submitted by the same user (dhart). And now he submits a link to Slashdot to boost the ratings farther.

He calls this an honest representation of customer demand?! When I got linked to by Slashdot, I got 28,000 hits. And that was a Sunday morning. Say bye-bye to any sort of reasonable cross-section of Dell users.

I love Linux, and haven't run anything But Linux on my personal systems since 2001, but this is very nearly astroturfing. At the very least, it'll strongly bias the demographic on ideastorm.

Re:dhart submissions all over the place.

[Daniel Phillips]

He calls this an honest representation of customer demand?! When I got linked to by Slashdot, I got 28,000 hits. And that was a Sunday morning. Say bye-bye to any sort of reasonable cross-section of Dell users.

Thousands of potential customers is thousands of potential customers whether they come from Slashdot or anywhere else. Translates to millions of dollars of potential sales by the way.

Re:dhart submissions all over the place.

[Short Circuit]

The problem of having a disproportionate polling set is you can estimate a revenue of the people you polled, at the risk of alienating millions more. Millions in sales from Slashdot users could be easily outweighed by billions in sales from the general populace.

This can't be proved unless, of course, you have a poll with a polling set representative of your demographic.

Re:dhart submissions all over the place.

[Daniel Phillips]

The problem of having a disproportionate polling set is you can estimate a revenue of the people you polled, at the risk of alienating millions more.

Oh come now. Nobody is going to be alienated by being offered the choice of free software on their new computer.

Re:dhart submissions all over the place.

[Short Circuit]

No, they won't. But they might get pissed if they get this "open" Office thingy on their computer that saves documents that they can't open up at school or work. Or they might get pissed if they selected the "No OS" option to try to save a few bucks on the order without realizing how important having an OS is.

And then there's Dell's expense in reworking their order form and portions of their software installation and testing procedures. Especially if they have to run quality assurance on a variety of Linux distros.

This Slashdot article totally screwed up any chance dhart might have had in getting Dell to take his suggestions, because the guys at Dell who make business decisions can't trust their idea ranking site to give them good numbers. It would be extremely foolish to make business decisions with known bad data.

Re:dhart submissions all over the place.

[Daniel Phillips]

they might get pissed if they get this "open" Office thingy on their computer that saves documents that they can't open up at school or work.

Rubbish, Openoffice saves perfectly well in Microsoft's .doc format, and the real thing (Openoffice) is just a click away.

It would be extremely foolish to make business decisions with known bad data.

It would be extremely foolish for anybody to listen to a thing you say.

Re:dhart submissions all over the place.

[Short Circuit]

Rubbish, Openoffice saves perfectly well in Microsoft's .doc format, and the real thing (Openoffice) is just a click away. By default? Let me check.

Gah...My Linux install of OpenOffice doesn't have a default file type. But I'm pretty sure that the Windows version defaults to odt for Writer. Windows users I've tutored don't usually pay attention to file types. I know this because people come in all the time with Microsoft Works documents, have to have file formats explained, and need to be shown how to save files in .DOC or .RTF.

Remember, for a low-end user, including most of Dell's customers, every click is 40 seconds of deliberation and frustration.

The Question...

[TheLoneWolf071]

Will they start also catering some of there hardware on their computer for linux? I've never owned a dell, but I know one of the main problems with the linux up-rise is that there always seems to be one or two hardware pieces that does not work with linux. I also wonder what Distro they will choose. The natural contenders are Fedora and Ubuntu(FTW). I think it's good though that they would all linux to come preinstalled, will save the newbies a lot of trouble with problem installations, etc.

If any of you had bothered to click the link...

[MeatBlast]

You would've seen that it says they would "Offer the 3 top free Linux versions for free pre-installation on all Dell PCs." How they would determine what distro is "most popular", I don't know.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Xanius]

Exactly, my girlfriends laptop is through her dads business and when things break they send a person from a repair shop to fix it at her place free of charge. Doesn't matter where she is, they get it fixed within 24 hours of calling.

Re:Linux flavors L, I, N, S, P, I, R, E

[tepples]

Now, if they had a service like "I'll send you the Linux distro I want, please preinstall it on the next 500 computers you ship me," that could be big. s/500/500,000/ and Linspire might be interested.

Shill?

[Gothmolly]

So 100 motivated geeks spammed their website and made it look as if there's huge customer demand. Duh. That's like those CNN or MoveOn.org polls - only the motivated even go there.

A better metric would be to have an OS choice list on their config page, with a "sorry we don't support Linux option" displayed once people click it.

Re:Shill?

[atomic-penguin]

So where are the 100 Windows geeks to say, "Please give me fewer options. I don't want to have a choice unless it's between Vista or XP!"

Re:Shill?

[Alsee]

That's like those CNN or MoveOn.org polls

Yeah... if you want Fair And Balanced polls you need to go to FoxNews.

-

Consequences of Linux Demand

[reporter]

Such huge demand for Linux is good news. It should convince dial-up ISPs like AOL to release a Linux client. Though many customers now subscribe to broadband, millions of Americans do not need the bandwidth. Dialup is sufficient for the #1 Internet application: e-mail.

Also, this demand for Linux should -- hopefully -- encourage RedHat to resume releasing a Linux distribution. I would not oppose paying the sum of (1) cost of distribution on CD and (2) an additional $5 (or even $10) in profit.

Re:Consequences of Linux Demand

[Breakfast Pants]

Looking for this?

Re:Consequences of Linux Demand

[shewfig]

"Such huge demand for Linux is good news. It should convince dial-up ISPs like AOL to release a Linux client..."

This is exactly what's wrong with the prospect of pre-installed Linux from one of the big Windows PC shops: vendor spyware, aka crapware. There are too many "custom apps" in the Windows world, shipped with every new PC, every ISP, every piece of hardware... most of it serving very little apparent purpose beyond flashing logos at the user, and most of it with very little documentation on what's necessary (e.g. just the driver) vs. duplicating built-in OS functionality.

We can't assume that Linux vendors all have halos. In 2004 I bought a PC pre-loaded with Linspire, and lasted a week on the distro before nuking and paving the drive, because the software installer was pay-for-play: only a limited set of apps were available for free, and the rest (e.g. OpenOffice, the Gimp) required a subscription. As a then Linux-newbie, I went crying back to Windows XP - but installed cleanly from a MS-branded CD, not a vendor-provided "recovery disk".

My most recent PC purchase is a Dell laptop which came pre-installed with a large number of commercial applications, each of which would, on first execution, inform you that your 30-day trial had just started. There are also proprietary "support" applications to map the various hotkeys, inform me of the latest drivers, tell me that I should really buy a new battery (just click this link), and show advertisements for more Dell software of equally dubious utility. Just useful enough for me to not uninstall it.

Given pre-installed Linux, I can imagine vendors releasing drivers as object code only, with proprietary undocumented calls, which will only work with vendor-branded utilities. My WiFi card was almost that bad (proprietary 80211 stack). Can you imagine what a PC vendor as skilled as Dell in pre-loading crap could do?

Re:Consequences of Linux Demand

[bckrispi]

It should convince dial-up ISPs like AOL to release a Linux client.

AOL subscriber who runs linux? +1500 Funny!

Re:Consequences of Linux Demand

[jbevren]

Funnier still: A linux user willing to use AOL!?

Re:Consequences of Linux Demand

[Sj0]

I was forced to use AOL for a few months because I moved south and stayed with a relative while going to college. It was pretty bad having to have their shitty client open just to be able to use the internet.

You use what's available. If you're too high and mighty to deal with it, maybe you're not hardcore enough. :P

lost in translation

[edwardpickman]

Dell somehow read this as #1 preinstalled Vista and #2 Preinstalled Microsoft Office. There still seems to be a language barrier between Corporate and English.

Re:lost in translation

[westlake]

Dell somehow read this as #1 preinstalled Vista and #2 Preinstalled Microsoft Office. There still seems to be a language barrier between Corporate and English.

The language barrier is between Sales and the Geek. Which is Walmart buried OEM Linux.

Astroturf.

[twitter]

No, I think this was Linux flavors A, S, T, R, O, T, U, R, F. I would guess this is a push by some pro-Linux webpage for publicity.

That comment cuts both ways. Microsoft has a long history of astroturf, so you would expect the requests to be M$ BS if people were doing that. All of it is dwarfed by actual customer demand where it exists. Give it some time and M$ will have a few M$ powered botnets target it, but the cat is out of the bag now - people really do want free software.

...and if you thought that was something...

[XB-70]

...just try going to the site! Can you say 'slashdotted'?!!

Now, the bloody thing will be skewed way out of proportion by people who just want so see Linux up there, but don't have an intention to buy from Dell.

If you're going to comment, please be careful to state your true intentions and not just be evangelical about Linux.

NOTE: For my part, I have been asking Dell for 10 years for the option to purchase their products O/S-free (let alone w/ Linux). Having the option to pre-install a working distro would be great - even if it is only a choice of one or two of the majors.

Re:Are you a Dell call center employee? ;)

[zx-15]

No not at all. Why?
I did couple of linux deployments using installed images, and it's pretty easy.

Close, but...

[Junta]

I will say of the orinoco/prism stuff, they are decent, only with hostap drivers, but for the life of me I cannot get it+wpa_supplicant to work on a LEAP network even though it works fine in a WPA2-PSK network...

The chipset to get in my experience is an ipw2100/ipw2200/etc... I've had those work effortlessly on numerous networks, WPA, LEAP, whatever.

I've had problems out of Atheros, but the sheer volume of those cards I think has caused support for them to improve lately, but I haven't tried in over a year...

Avoid broadcom... It's so damn weird you have to do so, their ethernet NICs have good first-party driver efforts, and yet you have to ndiswrapper to attempt their wireless parts... guess they accept they must do open-source drivers to be a serious linux market competitor, but don't think wireless linux is important... Also weird the linksys wireless boxes use broadcom chips with native, closed source broadcom drivers.

I haven't tried in years, but at last check, atmel chip driver sucked verily. By now that could've been fixed, but who cares with Intel chips...

nice

[lleb]

this is great, but I can not create an account using my iMAC. I tried both Safari, and FF2.0 and no way to create an account to vote. Still very good news to see a 2 - 1 ratio for pre-installed Linux.

What about the BSDs?

[DaMattster]

Hey, it would be nice if we could get one of the BSDs as an option. But, it probably won't happen. PC-BSD would be a great candidate. It is very easy to use and has software installers called PBIs which behave very similarly to the Windows installer interface. The only thing I am not so crazy about is that it is KDE based. I am more of a fan of Gnome. Have a look at the website. Methinks you'll like it. http://www.pcbsd.org

Winds of Change.

[twitter]

... expect Dell to be the last major OEM not shipping Linux.

You think? I'm not sure anymore. Just a few weeks ago Michael Dell stood up with Vint Cerf and admitted 1 in 4 M$ computers is part of a botnet. Now his company is publicizing customer demand for Linux. If he was interested in toeing the M$ party line, he would have suppressed the results. The odds are Dell is moving away from being a M$ vassal.

2007 is the year of Linux. Vista sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!

Re:Winds of Change.

[Chris Burke]

You think? I'm not sure anymore. Just a few weeks ago Michael Dell stood up with Vint Cerf and admitted 1 in 4 M$ computers is part of a botnet. Now his company is publicizing customer demand for Linux. If he was interested in toeing the M$ party line, he would have suppressed the results. The odds are Dell is moving away from being a M$ vassal.

I think it is incorrect to call Dell a vassal of MS or formerly of Intel. Obviously they were tightly in bed with both companies, but Dell is itself big enough that they can make their own demands. It works both ways -- Dell needs MS/Intel to give them deals so they can have low costs so Dell mostly toes the line, but MS/Intel need Dell as the biggest supplier of PCs to be exclusive to them, so Dell can occasionally throw their weight around.

Again, based on what I saw with Dell/AMD, these sorts of statements that hint that Dell might be thinking of breaking with their exclusive status are at least initially all based around getting more concessions. The threat of Dell becoming non-exclusive was a powerful one that kept Intel dancing to Dell's tune. That's the only reason Intel released a 64-bit x86 chip (though it had already been designed) -- Dell said "We're losing customers to Opteron, give us 64 bit x86 or we buy AMD". Intel didn't want to, since doing so would kill Itanium (more). So I'd say that the statement about botnets was a similar wakeup call for MS, which if translated directly into a call for action would be either "clean up your security and/or gives us better deals".

However, over time all these statements which are fundamentally true become even more true, the demand becomes more clear, and the financial picture starts to speak clearly against Dell's exclusivity. This may in fact be the precursor to such a change at Dell; I'm just saying don't expect it super soon.

2007 is the year of Linux. Vista sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!

If that is true, then I expect Dell to start shipping Linux desktops in 2008. That's all I'm sayin.

Re:Winds of Change.

[drsmithy]

2007 is the year of Linux. Vista sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!

1996 is the year of Linux. 95 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
1997 is the year of Linux. 95 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
1998 is the year of Linux. 98 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
1999 is the year of Linux. 2000 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2000 is the year of Linux. 2000 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2001 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2002 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2003 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2004 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2005 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2006 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!

Re:Winds of Change.

[Stamen]

2007 is the year of Linux. Vista sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!

But seriously, Viska sucks so hard Hoover Inc. sued for patent infringement.

Re:Winds of Change.

[Stamen]

Note: The name "Viska" is an attempt by Microsoft, via clever obfuscation, to ward off the pending patent litigation.

Re:Winds of Change.

[kernelfoobar]

The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they start making vacuum cleaners...

Re:Winds of Change.

[zCyl]

The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they start making vacuum cleaners...

Clippy meets Roomba? Perish the thought... (or the cat...)

Re:Winds of Change.

[a.d.trick]

Yeah, I know, it's a classic joke; but many successful house-hold technologies languished for years while naysayers made fun of it. Then eventually (and very slowly) it made more and more headway till eventually it dominated.

In the meantime, it's an effective OS that helps work effectively on the desktop and the server. So this whole "year of Linux" is rather irrelevant for me.

Re:Winds of Change.

[MrCopilot]

OMG I cannot believe you didn't include Window ME (No os from MS has sucked harder, missed opportunity.)

2007 is the year of Linux. Vista sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 1996 is the year of Linux. 95 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 1997 is the year of Linux. 95 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 1998 is the year of Linux. 98 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 1999 is the year of Linux. 2000 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 2000 is the year of Linux. 2000 sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 2001 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 2002 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 2003 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 2004 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 2005 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time! 2006 is the year of Linux. XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!

Your analysis is missing one important point. 2007 Vista does Suck, and now Linux doesn't.

Re:Quiet Computers

[Ulven]

The last 4 computers I've built (1 at home, 3 for work) I've spent about £100 more than needed to ensure it's as quiet as possible.

Huge heatsink, decent case - designed with noise and airflow in mind, quiet hard drives, fanless psu...

Worth every penny.

The problem would be old grandma..

[weirdguy]

Let's say and old grandma sees that she can save money by buying a PC with Linux on it. So she does. When she gets it she boots it up, puts in here info and stats looking at pictures of her grandkids through her e-mail.

Wait, there's no problem here. The only problem is above commenter's that think only power-users can use Linux.

NOOOO!

[mozkill]

I would rather NOT see Dell get involved with Linux. Dell's influence would ruin any Linux distro associated with it. Open source needs to be unattached to the grimey fingers of corporate america.

Re:NOOOO!

[atomic-penguin]

You must me living under a rock.

Someone make a custom DELL distro

[mozkill]

Someone merely needs to start a custom "DELL distro" for dell computers. Screw letting Dell have control over that... it would be disaster for a distro to allow their grimey fingers into things.

Great Story:

[encoderer]

On a late night public radio call-in show (put out by American Public Media), they had a story about the overseas call centers. It was a great story. They played clips of the training classes where they teach these indians to lie about what they did on the 4th of july or what they ate for Thanksgiving. It was sickening.

But then they interview this "industry representitive" who basically said what we all have been: The American people are not satisfied with the level of service they get from Indian call centers, and that many companies are closing them.

I momentarily though "wow, thank god, that's a trend that can't be over too soon."

Then he pulls out the punchline: Many of the closed Indian operations are being moved to the Phillipines, because people have less of a negative impression when the phillipino accent is played back to them.

I swear to god it's like the RIAA is running the call center industry.

I was SCREAMING at the radio that the only reason Filipino accents don't score as badly as Indian accents are that Americans haven't called tech support yet and had to deal with under-trained Filipinos nearly as much as they've had to deal with under-trained Indians.

So yes, that's their bright idea. So if Dell does accept the "Close your indian call centers" suggest, don't expect much of an improvement. Maybe we should be a little more specific and suggest that they move their call centers only to NATO countries, and preferably the US, Canada or the UK.

Re:Great Story:

[koreaman]

Do you know any Filipinos, and more importantly, do you speak English with them on a regular basis?

I know a teenage Filipina girl. Although she does have a noticable accent, her English is impeccable and easily understood. She's not a special case, this is normal for Filipinos. The Phillippines exhibit a situation of diglossia in which English is used for educational and government as well as other formal purposes. What this means is that everything from government proceedings to television reporting is conducted in the English language. In addition, English is the only language spoken in many schools, and textbooks are exclusively written in the language. According to the Filipina I know, any use of her local language in her school incurs a fine.

Thus, Filipinos, especially educated ones, can be expected to have a good command of English. This, coupled with the fact that their accent is quite easily understandable, would make them, on average and from a linguistic point of view, much better technical support representatives than their Indian counterparts.

Re:Great Story:

[klx]

I hate the fake names and the lying. It must be just as embarrassing for the rep as it is insulting to the customer.

Anyway, I once cornered a "John Dawson" into telling me that his name was very common in India. He had the giggles for the rest of the call, and for once I felt like I had accomplished something on a tech support call.

Re:Great Story:

[koreaman]

I've got a suggestion for you: Take the trouble to research a topic before you take someone for a troll. Also, don't assume that even if something sounds totally bizarre to you, it's impossible that it occurs in a foreign school. No two school systems are alike, as my studies in France taught me. I suspect that you've never studied in a foreign country, which explains your narrow-mindedness.

It's 100% true that students in her particular school must pay a small fine if they are caught speaking a language other than English.

Re:Great Story:

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey I'm a Filipino. We do have call-centers here, I don't work for one (I'm a programmer) but why oh why American companies choose other countries for their tech support and not some American state. I don't know the answer, but I'm glad that some of my fellow countrymen are given descent jobs. Maybe you should try starting a business and from there evaluate if some of those jobs will be outsourced. My country is a victim too of globalization, just look at China, our "raw" materials just doesn't compete with them, and many of our local farmers are starving to earn a living. A company primary focus is to earn money, maybe boycott those companies that outsource tech support, just don't condemn the Indians or the Filipinos that your job is lost, in the first place it wasn't our decision.

Re:Great Story:

[encoderer]

But they're STILL going to give them American names. And they're STILL going to train them to lie about "setting of fireworks" and "eating turkey on thanksgiving" and they're STILL not going to understand all slang and they're STILL not going to understand common pop-culture references. Training can help, but things still will be far inferior to American based tech support. What's more, the companies KNOW THIS. That's why if you call American Express for your Green Card (as in Green American Express Card), you get their indian line. But if you call for your Black Card, you get Americans. Or if you call Dells premium tech support, you get American, etc.

You're right-- I don't know any NATIVE Filipinos. I do know some AMERICAN Filipinos, but that's different. (Yes, I understand that the Phillipines are an American protectorate so they could all be considered somewhat 'american' but you know what I meant)

My post wasn't meant to insult Filipinos or any other nationality. I hope you don't take it as such.

Re:Great Story:

[ElDavido]

and they're STILL not going to understand common pop-culture references
Do you call tech support lines to chat about American Idol or something? When I call, I want technical answers. So long as I can understand the other person, I don't care where they are or what cultural customs they follow.

(Yes, I understand that the Phillipines are an American protectorate so they could all be considered somewhat 'american' but you know what I meant)
The Philippines are not an American protectorate. The Philippines have been a completely sovereign nation since 1946. They were ceded from the Spanish to the United States in the Spanish-American War in 1898. That relationship lasted until WWII, when the Japanese took the islands. After WWII, the Philippines became a fully independent nation. The United States had military bases there until the early 1990s.

Re:Great Story:

[koreaman]

Of course your post wasn't meant to insult Filipinos -- one could hardly demand that an entire population speak a foreign language fluently.

I'm not discussing the companies' practice of making foreigners pretend to be Americans. I think it's stupid and easily seen through, and I don't see why they do it.

In any case, I don't see how a lack of speaking American English and understanding American culture could be detrimental to technical support. What's the last time you needed slang and pop culture references to communicate with a technical support representative? It's not a situation of two buddies chatting over a beer, it's an individual communicating with a paid professional in a somewhat formal setting.

I'm not talking about whether Indian or American technical support is superior. I know American technical support is. I don't see how this applies, as we're talking about the Philippines, not India, so your examples are meaningless.

I hope that someday you meet one or more native Filipinos and speak English with them. I firmly believe that you will be pleasantly surprised.

Re:Great Story:

[koreaman]

Another comment, why would NATO countries be any better? Most of them don't speak English, and in some of the countries the language isn't even remotely similar.

Re:Great Story:

[encoderer]

I hope you're right, because if that article is correct, we'll all be speaking more often with Filipinos.

And, for what it's worth, I'm certain that Filipinos would prefer that their jobs stay in the Philippines and are not exported to the mainland USA. Same thing for India. I'm certain that Indian cellphone companies would prefer NOT to have to talk to an American with a fake Indian name.

Re:Great Story:

[sdgr800]

For me, it is not about the accent of he person on the other end, it is about the ability. I would gladly listen to a thick accent at any level if it was experienced. It is the script reading dregs off the street that get me in to a lather.

Re:Great Story:

[wordsnyc]

Look at most "ghetto" folk in the US. It doesn't matter where they're from. Most normal Americans can't understand a damn word those people are saying. Even the ones who have made something of themselves, be it in sports or music, are nearly impossible to understand. It's one thing to use slang now and then. But when you hear them talk in TV interviews, you might actually understand a small handful of the words they're saying. And this is coming from people born to American parents, and raised in American cities like Detroit, LA, NYC, and Atlanta.

Well, here's our winner of the Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink Award for Racist Blather today. Poor thing just can't understand all those, um, athletes. From, you know, Detroit.

Re:Great Story:

[Fulminata]

1) The Philippines hasn't been an American protectorate since WWII, so you're well over half a century out of date.
2) Despite no longer being officially linked with America, most Filipinos are still somewhat aware of American pop-culture, more so than the average Indian at least. I'm not sure what that has to do with providing tech support in any case.
3) Filipinos set off fireworks for July 4th, because it just happens to be the date that the Philippines became independent of the United States of America, and Filipinos like to set off fireworks for every major holiday.
4) You're right on the Thanksgiving part though. The average Filipino has probably never tasted Turkey.

Re:Great Story:

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think he's talking about race at all. I mean, look at celebrities like Eminem and Kevein Federline. They're white, but they buy into the urban ghetto culture. Yet when you hear them speak, they speak like fucking retards. There are many people who speak English as their second or third language better than Eminem and Federline speak it as their first.

Re:Great Story:

[mwvdlee]

I know a teenage Filipina girl.

Are you sure about that?

Re:Great Story:

[GanjaManja]

They'll still suck at customer service because they're on the entire WRONG SIDE OF THE PLANET. Let me talk to someone who works at the company I'm trying to call, Not a company hired via another company by the company I'm trying to call. Direct experience with the product and knowledge of the country and environment your customers are using it in are a big deal (people actually calling customer service are often trying to solve a more-difficult-than-usual problem).

Re:Great Story:

[bhiestand]

Your understanding of the Phillippines, the school system, government, and media is incorrect. No, he's partially correct.

Anyone who as spent more than 2 weeks in the PI would know that English is the second national language of the Phillippines. You mean the RP? I guess you were in the military. Clark or Subic?

Tagalog is the national language, and there are over 400 dialects. Tagalog and English are both equally official national languages. I couldn't even guess the number of dialects, but there are over 70 distinct LANGUAGES in the Philippines.

Tagalog is spoken in school as is English. Newpapers are printed primarily in Tagalog and also include English. Yes, you were definitely in the Central Luzon area. Tagalog is spoken in schools in the Tagalog region. We're talking maybe a 100-mile radius around Manila. Newspapers in THIS region are printed in Tagalog+English, as well as the national newspapers. This is because the government is operated in, and primarily controlled by, Manila. If you go to Mindanao you'll find the local newspapers in different languages, and you'll definitely see a huge difference in Visaya. Many Tagalog speakers have to use English to communicate in these areas because more people there know English than Tagalog.

Tagalog is taught, to an extent, in every school. However, they start teaching English in the 1st or 2nd grade and generally switch to English entirely for higher level classes. All of the university textbooks are in English. All good schools teach nearly entirely in English.

Television is primarily Tagalog although there are many shows in English (primarily American TV shows rebroadcasts). Manila is the "Hollywood of the Philippines". Since the actors are generally all from Manila, and produce with Manila in mind, the movies are in Tagalog and/or English.

In short, English is more of a common, unifying language than Tagalog is. There are, or at least were, more Visayan speakers than Tagalog speakers in the Philippines. You can imagine how unhappy non-tagalogs were when Tagalog was chosen as a national language. To attempt to smooth things over, they officially threw a few more words into the language and called it Pilipino.

With the huge American media, pop culture, and military influence over the last century Filipinos have learned to speak English very well and act American in many ways, particularly in the large urban centers. As far as accents go, the RP is probably the best developing nation for a call center. People are extremely well-paid if they get $5-10/day, and most speak in easily understood English. It would also do a lot for many of the prostitutes in the Philippines, who are going to be fighting over the chance to work in a call center.

Back on topic, though, I think the original point was about the technical abilities rather than the accents. I am eerily reminded of staying in a hotel in the Philippines and asking their business center to tell me what settings I needed to enable internet access in my room. They promptly sent a very helpful young man (their engineer) to my room, who proceeded to attempt to follow the simple directions in his binder for "Opening Internet Explorer, Going to Tools - Options, ... Entering Proxy Server Settings". After five minutes of struggling, he had to ask me "Where my internet was". Of course I don't have an IE icon on my desktop! Anecdotal? Yes, but still fairly representative of the computer skills of the majority of the population. You're still going to be dealing script readers who don't really understand computers, and it's going to be even more frustrating when they don't understand your obscure cultural references that you make when you're frustrated, annoyed, and angry.

Re:Great Story:

[TCaptain]

I'm playing the devil's advocate here (because like almost everyone I agree that tech support over the years has gotten extremely piss poor).

I'm not discussing the companies' practice of making foreigners pretend to be Americans. I think it's stupid and easily seen through, and I don't see why they do it.

I would like to put forward the notion that perhaps they do it because they have a (perhaps quite justified) fear that americans calling in will assume that anyone with an accent is sub-standard and cannot help them, therefore will refuse it and make a fuss from the get go.

We all know these people, I've worked the tech support lines long ago and far away, they are the idiots who call and don't listen to ANYTHING you say and just yell "Get me a supervisor!" and "My PC thing is broken and you're gonna fix it NOW and don't tell ME what to do because I've got a super bachelor of everything and I know more than you". Those types.

Now in recent my experience, it was almost universal that 1st level support was poor (I'm being kind, it was extremely annoying and stupid), and that didn't matter if it was in the US or India (or wherever). However, there were a few nuggets of hope in there, a genuinely knowing person. Some sounded western, some didn't. Those that didn't, well, they helped ME, but how many people would have just shot em down because of an accent?

Re:Great Story:

[dwpro]

When I call, I want technical answers. So long as I can understand the other person, I don't care where they are or what cultural customs they follow.

You must not have worked technical support if you think that all that a person needs is technical information. They want to get shit fixed, and speaking a bunch of technobabble to them will only frustrate both sides. It takes a pretty firm handle on a language to step someone through a technical process that is not technically inclined.Much of my time spent in this field was not looking up the answers to what they were doing, but coming up with ways to first, understand what they are telling me is wrong (since they don't know) and secondly translating back to them the steps that need to be taken. It's not as simple as it might seem.

Re:Great Story:

[xtronics]

One other detail - for what ever reason, Philippine call center workers are really dedicated to doing a good job, customer ratings are higher than tech support from US call centers....

Re:Great Story:

[xtronics]

What do you mean the 'wrong side of the planet"? They are closer to China than you are - and that is where the future is...

Re:Great Story:

[Pikoro]

hahaha your voice mail is going to get slashdotted.... ;)

Re:Great Story:

[petermgreen]

I would like to put forward the notion that perhaps they do it because they have a (perhaps quite justified) fear that americans calling in will assume that anyone with an accent is sub-standard and cannot help them, therefore will refuse it and make a fuss from the get go.
from the customers side if i get an accent that doesn't match with who i'm calling it generally means one or more of the following.

1: the buisness is being a cheapskate, this doesn't bode well for the rest of the support request, this is especially true if the line quality is poor and/or the person doesn't just have a foriegn accent but also seems to have a poor command of english.
2: the buisness is probablly outsourcing, this means that not only will the drone be unlikely to know (that applies to drones anywhere though) but the drones entire chain of command probablly also don't really know.

Re:Great Story:

[Stewie241]

But the issue raised wasn't language skills... it was cultural knowledge skills. Is this about the person being of the 'in' group - knowing the cultural references, knowing popular culture, etc etc... Come on, aren't we past that?

What is being argued is that these people have excellent English skills. No, they may not celebrate thanksgiving or 4th of July, but somehow I don't think that is going to help you solve your problem. And how is knowing who won the Superbowl going to help them diagnose your computer problem?

Qualifications should be an excellent command of the English language as well as excellent knowledge of the system. Knowing the latest celebrity gossip shouldn't be important.

Please bear in mind...

[jd]

...that it took fourty years from Macmillan's "Winds Of Change" speech for events to actually transpire as he had predicted. (Whilst I am not a fan of many of the older politicos, I was actually very impressed by that speech when the BBC make it available via UnrealAudio. Personally, I think it's one of the very few speeches that would deserve to be more widely known.)

I can't wait.

[Grinin]

I can't believe it took this long for Dell to ask their users what they actually want. I mean, this is the internet. ITs where you get instant results, thus why you can respond so quickly to your market. I'm glad to hear they are at least feeling the Linux pressures... Now what would be great is if they decided to give support to those desktops or laptops they sell with Linux on them.

Dell also has to face the distribution conundrum...

Re:No guff

[3p1ph4ny]

Really? I'm posting this from an Inspiron 9300 running Ubuntu.

Granted, I had to do a little bit of fucking around with the Radeon Mobile drivers to get the 3D support to work (and they're not open source, but I don't care), but everything else (thumbpad, LCD screen, buttons on the front) worked out of the box. Infact, I'm a *gamer* (Warcraft III, Black & White) using a Dell laptop.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in the UK. Maybe that's why I don't get the American-based tech support when I call. And yes, the systems are servers. The newer ones are PowerEdge 1900 systems.

I really don't care where the people are who are offering me tech support. At the very least I expect them to speak understandable English.

Yes it will happen

[gelfling]

So what you're saying is that there is an insufficient # of weaknesses and problems in Linux to warrant mounting endless gobs of third party software to workaround those problems.

What will happen in 3 years when MS executes on their plan to enter the security space in a major way? There won't be any financial opening for HW vendors to install demoware any longer. IT would appear that both Linux and MS will be on equal financial footing then. MS will all of its 'good' functions built in, and Linux with basic designs that don't require those workarounds.

Re:No guff

[rapidweather]

Well, that's what we have here, computers with various hardware installed, and an OS that works with everything the box ships with. That's what Microsoft has done all these years.
I like Linux as much as anyone here (see screenshots below), but to think that Dell, or anyone else will "ship a box with linux on it", and not expect to test everything first, and settle on a nice distro that has some commercial backing somewhere, for the boxes that ship with "linux".
Even more complicated for them to dual boot something like Vista and some flavor of Linux. Sounds like they would really lose money on that kind of product, when all of the hardware vs OS has been done for them by Microsoft.
I am advising people that buy a new Vista computer to just run it like it is, and not get caught up in a merry-go-round of buying software and add on hardware for it every weekend, and expecting all of it to work. They do provide drivers for 5000 or so devices and or programs, so that ought to prove me wrong, or I hope so, for the benefit of the buyers.
As far as the "not-installed" livecd linux is concerned, I test a lot of them, and find that there are problems, one big one is the wireless driver. No internet, no computer, they say. I do extensively test my livecd linux, and although I can boot on lots of boxes, and plenty of older machines, If the network card is not one I provide a driver for, then no internet either.
Most of the older Windows 98 boxes I target don't have a network card, so one can be easily added that works with my livecd linux, and we have internet.
I don't need Windows, just MSDOS, and perhaps a 20 GB or so hard drive to partition, provide a swap, and lots of space for a "persistent home".

Most of my computers only have 256 MB of RAM, or less, and 200 MHZ - 400 MHZ processors. Do like to put at least a 32 MB graphics card in there, however.
With setups like that, I get good response, nothing is "slow". Shows you what a 2.4 kernel can do. The 2.6 kernel bogs down big-time, so I stay away from it.

In my rapidweatherlinux.blogspot.com blog, I have a recent post where I have a downloadable archive of files to set up loadlin and a menu on a msdos box, to go with my livecd linux. If all you want is Firefox 2.0.0.1 and a broadband connection, then we are on the same page. I have GIMP, too, so you can create your own Worth1000.com style images, and entertain your friends from now on.
Check out the Getting Started Guide here.

So, my livecd linux is "installed", and no longer runs from the CDROM drive after that first setup day.

If I buy a Dell, I'd be prepared to opt out on a lot of hardware, and pick my own, later. Sure would like to get ahold of their water-cooled gaming box, however.

Re:look at me, I use a dollah sign

[sulli]

Don't you mean ridiculou$ ?

That's great

[PenguinGuy]

If I ever considered buying a Smell (sorry Dell) anything, it would be nice that they offer Linux or no OS at all. But since I am not planning on doing that (probably going to buy a Macbook), I don't really care what they do.

Straw Poll

[Stubtify]

Its just a straw poll. How many of the 20,000+ people are actually dell customers?

Yum

[JPMaximilian]

I'd rather build a desktop myself, component by component, but you can get a decent Dell system for sub $400, and that includes windows, so if I could get that same system for $100 cheaper, or however much Dell has to pay per system for Windows, that would be sweet.

Re:Let's check back after a few months

[rudlavibizon]

Wait? No, let's post some more requests on their site!

if only...

[cyber1kenobi]

...they'd be able to offer OS X as an option. I know it's been said before, but think what that would do for Apple's market share! Through the roof!

Re:if only...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I know it's been said before, but think what that would do for Apple's market share! Through the roof!

Their market share of the home computer market would be through the floor, just like the last time they licensed their OS to third parties. Their market share of desktop OS's would go up a little, but then MS would re-negotiate their Windows OEM license and Dell would have to choose between being priced out of their primary business and betting the farm on OS X, or dropping OS X. At that point do they choose to be completely at the mercy of MS (as they are now) or completely at the mercy of Apple (who is also competing with them in the hardware market and who has already killed off one such licensing scheme and several hardware companies along with it)? Assuming, for the moment they go with Apple and Apple does not shut them down to save their hardware sales (almost 50% of Apple's revenue) Apple is suddenly making almost 50% less money and shareholders are likely to fire whoever is in charge. Assuming, again, that they don't, where is Apple going to cut the budget in order to become profitable again? Will OS X development be greatly slowed?

All of the above makes Apple doing what you propose unfeasible. It is a huge risk for what? In the best case scenario they become one of many players in a non-monopolized market after spending huge amounts of money in order to break the monopoly on that market. It is a lousy investment and they'd be better off (financially speaking) putting their money into a normal market. This is what a lot of people don't understand about monopoly abuse. It doesn't have to make some market impossible to enter. It just has to make it more expensive than other markets so that no investor in their right mind would think the investment/risk/reward scenario made sense. Apple will unbundle their OS and hardware right after MS's monopoly is broken resulting in a normal, competitive market where they have to unbundle these two items in order to compete. Doing it before then would be an absurdly risky venture and a stupid investment of resources, possibly to the point of being legally actionable negligence from the shareholders.

Re:I think the #2 request is "no more Indians/phon

[BKX]

What I think is funny is that so many people think that English is the second language of the Indians at the Dell call centers. It's generally one of their (like at least four) native tongues. That's the real issue. They speak a different (and legitimate) dialect of English, complete with their own slang and mispronunciations that they think are correct. They are generally speaking as perfect Indian English as we Americans speak American English or Britons speak British English. Why would they want to fuck it up with an American accent? (Think about that from an American point view before answering.)

Mod parent... Well, *you* decide...

[KingSkippus]

I won't tell you how to mod the parent, but I can throw my 2 cent's worth of experience in.

It is 100% true that English isn't a second language in the Philippines, it's a primary language. I work in a 24x7 datacenter, and a year or so ago, a new support center was opened in the Philippines to handle our night shift. I thought they were going to let a bunch of people go, but it turned out, they were expanding our operations, not replacing them. (Thank goodness!)

I was very skeptical that this would work. I had many of the same fears. Would we be able to understand their accent? Would they be undertrained an incompetent? Would there be any culture clashes?

The answers, to my surprise, were: They have no discernible accent—none. They're very smart and easily keep up with our local folks, and have often gone far above and beyond the call of duty to help us out. And yes, they are very familiar with our culture and ways of doing things. In fact, a nice bonus about the Filipino support center is that a lot of our night shift calls were coming from Asia-Pacific countries (since, duh, they were open at that time of night), and a lot of those clients feel much more comfortable dealing with our Filipino support center than our American night shift folks.

By now, you're probably thinking, "Right, you're just a management goober," but I assure you, I'm not. In fact, I was certain that I was going to lose my job due to Filipino outsourcing, but that never happened, since we weren't really outsourcing. And after working with them for a while at our shift turnover and seeing the quality of the work they did for us, I can honestly say that hiring our Filipino friends has turned out to be one of the few times management actually did something right at my company, and it's been a win-win situation for everyone.

I'm not saying that every Filipino person is smart and capable and a perfect joy to work with. Just like dealing with all people, your mileage may vary. But I can say that anyone who thinks that good customer service can't be provided by support centers in the Philippines is either stupid or doesn't know enough Filipino people, if any at all.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

There's a dude in India who's probably really pissed because every time he calls Dell for support on his server, he gets someone from Texas!

Re:Grite Story:

[zsau]

G'die mite. Wawts wrawng weeth as Ozzies? Cahn't we speak English jast as good as thaose Bladdy Whingen' Pawms? Or ah you discreeminiten' agenst as becawse we cam frawm the Seauth Pacific nawt the Nawth Atlantic?

(I have no idea if that sounds like how an American would hear in Australian accent, but that's what it's meant to be.)

Well, duh...

[QuietLagoon]

How many people are going to ask Dell to pre-install Windows?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Mod parent... Well, *you* decide...

[styrotech]

They have no discernible accent--none.

Well that maybe the case for an American listener. All the Filipinos I've met (only a handful to be honest) sounded to me like they had American accents :)

But just to agree with you, all of them had very good spoken english (if a little quiet).

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Not really

[BertieBaggio]

So what you're saying is that there is an insufficient # of weaknesses and problems in Linux to warrant mounting endless gobs of third party software to workaround those problems.

Nope.

What will happen in 3 years when MS executes on their plan to enter the security space in a major way? There won't be any financial opening for HW vendors to install demoware any longer. IT would appear that both Linux and MS will be on equal financial footing then. MS will all of its 'good' functions built in, and Linux with basic designs that don't require those workarounds.

If and when MS does enter the security space in a major way, there will still be plenty of opportunity for HW vendors to include demoware. Consider:

1) Given their history, MS is unlikely to get security software right the first time. If they did, security software such as antivirus would be moot as Windows itself would already be secure. Even with MS selling a product, the security companies would still compete, and arguably pay higher fees to the likes of Dell since they would need to promote themselves more.

Still a financial opening to bundle demoware.

2) Even if the product is good, the current security vendors won't disappear overnight. Worthiness alone does not a successful product make. Marketing plays a big role - you can bet your buns the security vendors would up the ante with heavier marketing (ie more trial versions, ads, etc). MS would bundle it (a trial version) with Windows you say? The other companies would cry 'antitrust' as soon as bundling was so much as hinted at. Besides, the security companies could still pay the OEMs to include their trials and disable the MS one.

Still a financial opening to bundle demoware.

3) Let's enter fairyland and say that MS fixes / provides an AV solution for ALL security problems ever. No need for Windows-based antivirus solutions. Right. But that isn't the only kind of software with trial versions. Subscription based web TV services, office products, accounting software - not great examples but they are just off the top of my head. Heck even the useless crap like virtual characters (eBuddies? eSomething anyway) would probably pay a couple bucks to have a trial on there. Of course, Dell still has to balance including this stuff for the revenue with not pissing the users off.

Still a financial opening to bundle demoware.

What I would say is there isn't so much scope for including Linux demoware for anything, which is a good thing - for the end users. As you say, there are insufficient vulnerabilities known about for AV stuff. For other software there is generally a Free/Libre solution included with the distro. The other reason is that in the main the people creating the resource-hogging trials for Windows haven't targeted Linux - yet.

Anyway you seemed to miss the main thrust of that part of my argument (which is fair enough as I made quite a few points in the post), which went: providing GNU/Linux wouldn't save that much over providing Windows .

Am I the only one that suspects ballot stuffing?

[RallyDriver]

Surely the readers of this august forum have been responsible for much of those (currently) 22k+ votes.

I've never bought desktops from Dell pre-loaded with Linux, it was always easier just to reinstall than fight them on it, and you generally want the Windows license for VMware use.

We do get some servers preloaded with RHAS but we tend to config our own installs of that too - Dell's config people don't always "get" non-desktop IT (example: order dual channel hardware RAID controller, and they'll create a RAID-1 LUN with both drives on the same SCSI bus), but to be 100% fair I prefer us to reinstall any server system just to (a) get it exactly the way I want it, and (b) to be sure we have the knowledge to do so.

Doesn't anybody understand?

[ewl1217]

Looking at the responses to the pre-installed OpenOffice suggestion, it seems that some people just don't understand what this is all about. Just to shoot them down...

Plus I think the Open Source License policy prohibits software to be pre-installed and sold within a PC.

That's just plan wrong.

I am also unclear on the advantage of bundling software that can be downloaded for free. Especially since this prevents you from picking and choosing which components you wish to install, something I like to do with every piece of software I install. I could see perhaps having a folder with installers for a variety of open-source software saved in the Documents folder when the computer arrives and letting people just go through and install what they wish when they first start it up.

Sure it can be downloaded freely, but not everybody has a (fast) Internet connection, or even knows that this great free software exists. Not to mention that many users are literally scared when it comes to installing software...

There is that fine line difference between GIMP and Photoshop that makes the pros choose Photoshop.

Way to go and forget about the casual home user.

You are not going to get much control over your system with anything that is preinstalled. One of the advantages of Linux is being able to tailor the installation to suit your needs, tweaking your options, installed components, kernel modules and such. Having it preinstalled defeats the whole purpose in my opinion.

Most people don't care about control. They just want it to work, and they'll be happy if they get their computer cheaper due to free software.

First of all, as preinstalled software Dell would be required to offer customer support for it.

Who said that Dell needs to provide in-depth support, or any at all? Most people probably don't need support anyway.

Dell would be forced to ship officially supported versions of the distros like SUSE, Red Hat Enterprise etc.

Why would anyone think that? It's not like Microsoft gives Dell support for Windows; that's Dell's job. I think most people would be fine with a warranty-free distro like Ubuntu anyway.

We all have our own list of favorite freeware, what makes your list so special? I might want a completely different set.

This isn't "freeware", it's free and open source software. There's a big difference. Besides, I don't see any other great free alternatives to the likes of OpenOffice or Firefox. (There's Opera, but that's closed source.)

Re:Doesn't anybody understand?

[despisethesun]

Why would anyone think that? It's not like Microsoft gives Dell support for Windows; that's Dell's job.

Actually, Microsoft does support Windows on Dells. I know this because I used to work for MS tech support. How it works is Dell supports problems with the hardware and configuration, and if they can prove it's a problem with the OS they tell the customer to call MS. The inverse is also true; if a Dell customer calls MS, they troubleshoot it as a Windows issue until they're sure it's a problem with the hardware or whatever else, then send the customer running back to Dell.

I got a problem with this

[The Spoonman]

And, I'll tell you why: these numbers are skewed. How often have we read about Linux fan boys complaining about the lack of Linux support? How often do they start "campaigns" to put it out there to the vendors, get them to notice there's a following? How often have we seen these kinds of posts on just this site? So, when something like this comes along, they stampede the site, attempting to drive up the statistics. Conversely, how many average users are going to be going to this site? Norms who don't even know what Linux is? Not many. Naah, I much more easily buy the story we're getting that's based on sales, because companies are NOTORIOUS for not understanding what their customers want. But, they sure do know how to take their money. Now, those numbers aren't perfect, either because a large portion of requests for Linux are buried inside the orders that are shipped "no OS". Some companies, like mine, purchase their servers through HP or Dell with no OS because we have a volume license agreement with Microsoft. And, we're going to wipe away their installs anyway, even if it did come with one. But, we also purchase a couple of boxes that will run Linux here and there, but we buy them also without OS because we use Redhat Enterprise. If you were to ask our Dell rep, they'd tell you "that company has never requested Linux on a box". They'd also say we've never requested one with Windows, either. :)

Re:I got a problem with this

[Ash-Fox]

How often have we read about Linux fan boys complaining about the lack of Linux support?

I see it about several times a day in #Kubuntu, often they find the hardware they were complaining about is supported, it just required them to install a package or unblacklist a module etc.

How often do they start "campaigns" to put it out there to the vendors, get them to notice there's a following?

Never seen any.

How often have we seen these kinds of posts on just this site?

What? Like, "If Dell supported Linux I would buy from them", and then the next post, they're pointed to www.dell.com/linux ?

Conversely, how many average users are going to be going to this site?

I think people who want Linux on Dell don't know about Dell's Linux offerings, which indicates to me they're likely to be more closer to average than geeks.

Re:I got a problem with this

[The Spoonman]

I see it about several times a day in #Kubuntu, often they find the hardware they were complaining about is supported, it just required them to install a package or unblacklist a module etc.

Yeah, you're talking about something completely different. You're talking about a module that supports a particular piece of hardware. This article is talking about a vendor specifically saying "We support Linux". There's a difference. For example, if the vendor doesn't support Linux, you can't call them for support if you're running Linux. The module may work, it may not. If it doesn't, your left hoping someone can help you on the Internet. The article is also specifically talking about a vendor providing Linux as an option on new PCs, which Dell doesn't do much anymore becuase no one asks for it.

Never seen any.

Well, you'll need to be using the Internet for more than 30 seconds, but you'll see them. Give it another minute or two. If you don't see them, you might want to consult a doctor because you've got some seriously bad selective blindness.

What? Like, "If Dell supported Linux I would buy from them", and then the next post, they're pointed to www.dell.com/linux ?

No, like "Vendor X just came out with a great new product. No Linux support yet, though and they claim they have no plans to" Comments: "Time to plaster them with e-mails requesting Linux be official supported." Granted, there's generally an equal number of: "That's ok, the open source community's the greatest thing since sliced bread, they'll come up with their own set of drivers, nyahh!" They rarely materialize, but there's always a lot of enthusiasm.

Conversely, how many average users are going to be going to this site? I think people who want Linux on Dell don't know about Dell's Linux offerings, which indicates to me they're likely to be more closer to average than geeks.

Yes, just like I said. The average user isn't going to be figuring out how to tell Dell what they want to see in future products.

This is a must

[Orion Blastar]

I ordered a laptop from Circuit City, a Compaq dealer. I was told it was Linux compatible but shipped with XP pre-installed, but that I was free to install Linux on it if I wanted to.

I installed Linux only to find that the modem and wireless adapters had no driver support for Linux, so I searched the Compaq web site for them, they did not have them for my model. When I called their help desk, I was told something different than the salesperson told me, Linux is not supported for my model and that installing Linux voids my warranty and they do not have Linux drivers.

If Dell offers pre-installed Linux with restore CD/DVDs, and full driver support for the hardware on the laptop, my next laptop could be a Dell. From my experience Linux laptop support is horrible when it comes to driver support, and it has really upset me. Not only does Dell need pre-installed Linux but also Linux drivers we can download from their web site should we choose a different distro than the one Dell supports.

Re:This is a must

[Ash-Fox]

You may want to look at other vendors like System 76 or Lenovo.

Re:This is a must

[Orion Blastar]

Thanks, I'll check them out. When it is time to upgrade, I'll see which one of their systems is more likely to upgrade into.

Of course you did you inconsiderate clod!

[techno-vampire]

did I miss anything?

Yes: ponies! Lots and lots of pink ponies!

OMG!!! PONIES!

Re:Of course you did you inconsiderate clod!

[tulsileaf]

That's insensitive clod you insensitive clod!

2 to 1

[kingturkey]

It would have been nice if it was specified what the '1' represented in '2 to 1', whether it was the 2nd option or the rest of the ideas. What the summary means is that the Linux idea has almost twice the votes than that of the second idea, which is to sell computers with no extra software, i.e. the bloatware that Dell is paid to install. However the votes are fragmented as the 4th choice is essentially the same as the 2nd and the 5th and 6th choices both deal with Linux/no OS installed. If you add up these votes it is closer to 36000 votes for Linux/OS free and 18000 for no preloaded software, so still around double the second most popular. Of course this is just from looking at the first page of 15 ideas, of 45 pages, so I'm sure that there would be plenty more ideas rehashing these popular ones.

An editor for emacs

[mechsoph]

M-x viper

21,000 votes in 2 days and rising fast

[symbolset]

That's 7,000 customers in two days. 2.4 votes per minute, 24 hours a day. One in five votes cast. Even for Dell, that's a market. That's demand. That's opportunity. That's what the site is there to discover. Those numbers are only for the Linux Desktop option. If you add 6000 votes for Linux Laptop, 1400 for dual boot with Linux that's one in four voters want Linux one way or another.

and I can just imagine how many zelots voted multiple time

I'm confident some people voted only once even if they order a great many desktops every year. It's a Digg style poll; it's not scientific. It still tells Dell everything the site is capable of saying. People want the option to buy their Dells with Linux.

Re:Grite Story:

[koreaman]

Yes, that's how an American would hear an Australian (or New Zealish, we can't tell the difference) accent.

Re:Am I the only one that suspects ballot stuffing

[miro f]

you can't use the windows license for VMware use any more unless you buy Vista Ultimate

Hardware Support

[Flossymike]

Personally I would like to see the big vendors, like Dell, certify that certain models have hardware support in the Linux kernel.

I think the best way for them to achieve this would be to ship with a live gnu/Linux CD.

Such a move could be positive in supporting Windows systems as well, easy to identify the computer hardware failure, or if it a foobarred Windows install. This would potentially save a lot of customer data :-) I speak of this as someone who has done their share of helpdesk support.

Well, tha my 2c :-)

Re:Mod parent... Well, *you* decide...

[Glonoinha]

I have a good idea - how about teaching them how to code and bring THEM over by the boatload on H1-B's instead of Indians?
I mean ... damn! I've met easily a few hundred Filipinas over the years and every single one of them has been hot - what does that phrase LBFM mean, anyways?
Regardless, if we are going to fill our offices with foreigners, lets fill them with hot women from the Phillippines.

That would be a recruiting slant .. yea, and in this office we have hot and code running women.

Just playing the cards for better MS prices

[failedlogic]

Since the link site is unaccessible, I'll take a guess here. How do we know that the voting isn't rigged by Dell? Are we so sure that many customers voted? Are all the voters from the same IP block, the same company, the same city, or is it a statistically random representative sample?

Vista reception seems lukewarm. MS must know this. Just like Intel knows that AMD might take more of its business away. Dell has in limited way launched new machines with AMD on it. In this sense, where Dell has carefully used AMD to (probably) get better chip prices from Intel, could the same technique of the threat /implied use / demand of Linux *and* OpenOffice (dealing blows to MS's bread and butter) not be used to get better pricing on MS software?

Re:Just playing the cards for better MS prices

[JoshJ]

How do we know that the voting isn't rigged by Dell? Are we so sure that many customers voted? Are all the voters from the same IP block, the same company, the same city, or is it a statistically random representative sample?

It actually shows the votes on the page by geography if guest, or username. The answer is that it's none of the above. It's a self-selected sample, which means it suffers from a bias and is unusable for any real statistical work. What it does show is that there is a demand for preinstalled GNU/Linux.

Honest votes

[symbolset]

Yeah, I would buy a linux laptop from Dell next month if they offered a Linux or even no-OS option. I usually build my family desktops, but frankly I could start with one of their minimum boxes and save some time and money. For laptops building it yourself isn't yet an easy option.

I wouldn't actually use their linux on a bet but if an installed OS is what it takes to force Ballmer, Gates & Co to accept that they're not getting paid, I'll take linux. Nobody in their right mind would take an OEM install of the OS. There's just too much access being sold to that image.

The numbers of individuals may be exaggerated -- it's easy enough to vote up something, but another to dial up the company an put a PC or five on your Visa. One thing I haven't seen people post is that some people here buy thousands of PCs a year. One of those folks' votes probably mean a lot more to Dell, and they're being undercounted.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Digz]

Yes, I called their support regarding my $1600 (AFTER discounts) Inspiron 8500 twice - once for a DVD+RW that died inside of a couple months, and once for a motherboard that died within a year and a half. Both times, connected with someone from another country. The DVD+RW was cross-shipped quickly, the motherboard was given the "sorry about your luck, a replacement runs $600" routine.

Lesson learned. FYI, we just replaced our entire sales force's laptops, and they were NOT Dells.

Micheal Dell has $100M invested in Red Hat ...

[damg]

http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2 005/05/09/story1.html

Why would Dell try to convince people that there is no demand for Linux?

It's not that the revolt isn't working, . . .

[hduff]

Dude, it's just that it's been a l o n g year . . .

Flaimbait?

[encoderer]

Come on.... that was a well thought out post and a fair point, whether or not you happen to agree with me....

Re:Flaimbait?

[koreaman]

Although obviously I disagree with you, you do make good points and shouldn't have been modded "flamebait".

But trying to understand Slashdot logic is an exercise in futility, so whatever.

Re:Flaimbait?

[encoderer]

"But trying to understand Slashdot logic is an exercise in futility, so whatever"

That, my friend, is something we can agree on....

Re:Crowdsourcing innovation

[JoshJ]

There are those of us who think that ideas shouldn't be owned. I'm fine with it, and as the poster above me said, it should be quite obvious to anyone that they're not getting any money out of this- the "compensation" if they use the idea is that... uh... they use the idea.

Re:Is it me... or is everyone else an OpenSourceFa

[JoshJ]

Linux isn't a "wannabe Unix". GNU is the free and opensource Unix clone. Linux is nothing more than the kernel to the system- what lets GNU and everything on top of it talk to the hardware. Given the source code and time, you could make Windows run on the Linux kernel.

Re:Mod parent... Well, *you* decide...

[a.d.trick]

It is 100% true that English isn't a second language in the Philippines, it's a primary language.

Well, generally the people who get hired for those kinds of jobs tend to have really good English, but I wouldn't say it's the primary language in the country. In Manila, most people can speak some level of English, but Tagalog definitely the primary language. Outside of the capital, English proficiency is much rarer, usually Tagalog or a local language is used (there's around 100 different languages spread across the various islands).

The English that is spoken tends to be a lot more polite than the English of us Westerners. Philippine culture as a whole is much more hospitable and friendly. Another thing is that it takes them a lot of effort and skill to get that competent with English, so the few that do make it tend to be way smarter than their western counterparts.

Actually, I got tech support from there tonight..

[the_rajah]

I have a web site that is hosted at web.com (used to be Interland) and their overnight upgrade of the iMail mail server had a few glitches. Their first tier tech support is no longer in Atlanta, but is handled from the Philippines. The young lady I got on the phone tonight was quite easy to understand, polite, did not fib about where she was located when I asked and got my trouble ticket upgraded after working with me for about 20 minutes doing logical tests on her end. Would I still rather be talking to Jim with a genuine Georgia accent? You bet, but I can't complain too much about tonight's experience. I hope its not the exception.

Re:Which distro?

[cerberusss]

The RHN updates icon tells them when patches are available

Oh, so that's what the icon is for. I always thought that glowing thing in the tray was the Eye of Sauron, watching over my desktop.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[JavaIsGreat]

Why don't you ask Dell to get a support center in nearby locality? That will solve all your problem with Indian tech support. Also you can ask them to move their assembly from Malaysia. Or better to buy Sun machine with Solaris, that is THE server.

service

[SgtChaireBourne]

... Cheap desktops get you cheap support. Real servers get you real support. You get what you pay for.

Hmm. Everyone has anecdotes.

It's been ages since I have dealt with Dell. For the lap top, they took many weeks (IIRC 1.5 months) to fix a RAM problem. It was that a bad SIMM needed to be swapped out, but it was not allowed for the customer to do it. I could hear the techs backtalking me in the background over the phone. When they did finally return it, they sent it to the wrong address, though I had painstakingly dealt with many managers to confirm that they had the new address. The best part was that the delivery service just left the box on the doorstep. Someone who happened to know me spotted the box lying outside, saw my name on it and brought it in. Even if it had arrived at the right address it wouldn't have done much good: it arrived a day after I started a one month trip.

Another site I was at had a shitload of Dell servers all under some super-expensive 4hr-guarantee onsite service. About half had hardware malfunctions early one, even though many were different models and purchased at different times. Usually the hardware itself diagnosed the problem, other times it was quite apparent anyway. i.e. dead fan. So the techs at Dell would get informed of hardware problem X, Y, or Z and then come later the same day of the call. Fine. They would then get ushered down to the server room, look at the machine and then scratch themselves and say the part needed for X, Y, or Z was not in there car and it would take a few weeks...

That was a while back though, just over 7 years. But all those machines ran Linux, either Red Hat or Debian. I hope they have improved, but not bundling compatible hardware with the linux requests is not a promising sign.

Re:Is it me... or is everyone else an OpenSourceFa

[petrus4]

Linux is nothing more than the kernel to the system

Without which the much-lauded "GNU operating system," would not function at all. I'm aware of Stallman and his worshippers having tried to belittle the kernel's importance in recent years; it gets in the way of Stallman being able to compulsively seek credit for everything he possibly can.

If the kernel is such a trivial thing, I really wish that someone associated with the FSF would prove that and write their own. That way they could take the completed GNU system and go away.

We could replace the entire GNU system in fairly short order with the BSD utilities and TenDRA, and it'd also mean we wouldn't have to keep listening to Stallman and his army of cultic zombies constantly reminding the rest of us that we supposedly owe them our lives. It'd be fantastic.

Ever actually try to buy a Linux laoptop?

[Animats]

I've been trying to buy a Linux laptop. Unsuccessfully. I'm looking for a low-end system, just enough to give presentations and access systems remotely. My main systems are desktops. I don't need to be able to play movies. I don't need dual boot. I don't need much compute power or a big screen. I do need WiFi capability to public access points, and VGA output to projectors. One would think this would be easy.

So first I try Fry's, which used to have Linux machines on sale. No more. Everything is Windows or Mac. I try Best Buy. No joy, even after a talk with the Geek Squad guy.

Online, we have LinuxCertified. No obvious business address on the web site, always a bad sign, and a criminal offense in California. Low-grade domain-only SSL cert. Phone number not answered during working hours. Not looking good.

There's an article about a $498 Linux laptop from WalMart, but it's been discontinued. WalMart no longer seems to have any Linux laptops.

There's EmperorLinux, but their laptops start at $1145 and go up to $6000. Their $1145 machine is a Dell 520, which Dell sells for $599. $400 extra for Linux?

So now we're down to the blogger/enthusiast sites. One guy has a list of Linux laptop vendors. Going down the list, it doesn't look good. The HP link is dead. The Dell link leads to Dell's French site, and even that's selling only Windows laptops.

But some of the links aren't dead. MGE PC Online will actually sell a Linux laptop. It's a bit overpriced; $805 for the cheapest Celeron machine. But you get Red Hat Fedora preloaded. ShopRCubed has Linux laptops that start at $840. Their advertising is deceptive; they advertise a model with "Intel Dual Core Technology" for $799, but in fact that's the price with an Intel Celeron. Adding WiFi and a Ubuntu install brings you up to $840.

There's American Computer, or ACC PC, or CompAmerica, or whatever. Very low base prices, but they don't install Linux; they just sell you a bare machine and claim "Also Certified to run the Linux Operating System."

Let's try Google's "Froogle" system. There we get some Linux laptops. There's a discontinued Acer model that's out of stock. There's a Pentium II laptop on eBay for $80. ("Boots Linux; some keys don't work") Nothing useful there.

Face it. There are no major commercial vendors of Linux laptops any more. There are a few resellers buying machines, adding Linux, and increasing the price. That's it.

Re:Ever actually try to buy a Linux laoptop?

[Qbertino]

Acer has a line of cheap Laptops with Linux preinstalled. It's Linpus Linux, some shoddy taiwanian industry distro, but the laptops are cheap and good enough for the ususal stuff. Ubuntu should be installlable without to much of a hassle.

Re:Ever actually try to buy a Linux laoptop?

[Arimus]

It is. My Aspire 5612 runs Ubuntu without a glitch... even the wireless works (after the usual amount of prodding and cursing ndiswrapper etc).

Re:Ever actually try to buy a Linux laoptop?

[Ash-Fox]

Have you tried System 76?

Re:Ever actually try to buy a Linux laoptop?

[Animats]

Acer has a line of cheap Laptops with Linux preinstalled.

No, they don't. Yes, some blogger said they did back in 2005.

Re:Which distro?

[dos_dude]

I'm amazed that that comment was rated funny because that's exactly what Dell is saying/thinking: http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3822185143.html

I'd like to see the Slashdot thread the day that Dell announces to ship machines with a preinstalled Suse. All the Red Hat, the Debian, the [your favorite distro here] fans will be really pissed off.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[moranar]

He should just post his gripes in broken English to Slashdot, like everyone else does. Sheesh.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[the_womble]

Is tech support in the US any better? Are US call centres all full of technically competent people who

One of the reasons that HSBC gave for off-shoring from the UK to India was to get better staff as well as cheaper. If you look at the quality of the people they employ in the sub-continent it appears to be true.

Funny how American seem to whine about foreign accents in call centres more than the British - even though lots of British companies off-shore. Perhaps it for the same reason that the Americans cannot even make a film without re-writing history to make the heros all American.

I would say what I think about standards of English in the US versus India, but the last time I did so the comment got modded -1 flamebait by the Americans - after first having been modded +5 insightful by the rest of the world (I can guess who modded up and down by that fact that the modding up happened while most Americans were still asleep, and the moddding down when they woke up).

Call me a cynic but

[Toreo asesino]

I can't help but think this has a lot to do with price more than actual preference...

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Linux and run it at home etc, but if you know anything about Linux, it'll be that it's "free" which would logically imply your PC is cheaper?

Not that it's the only reason people request Linux pre-installed of course, but it must be a big one at least.

Do they really want Linux?

[4D6963]

I believe they'll have a harder time now with the tired old mantra 'There's no customer demand for Linux.

I haven't read the article, but I assume that it means that they ship their computers with Linux instead of Windows, and thus do not make you pay for your copy of Windows.

So if I got it right, it doesn't necessarily mean that people want Linux, but that people don't wanna pay for Windows and would rather install their own copy of it.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[bhiestand]

I'm in the UK.

Every time I've gotten an American English speaking rep from Texas.

At the very least I expect them to speak understandable English. I think I see the confusion you two are having. You see, you're asking for someone to speak English that you can understand, and you're a Brit. The GP is an American, and has no problem understanding American Texan English.

It is quite likely that you actually are being connected to their call center in Texas. Next time you call, ask to be transfered to somebody in India. It will be a lot easier for you to understand, especially if you ask the rep to drop his fake American accent.

Most requested from those who care...

[islanduniverse]

This may be the most requested feature, but I'm sure there are many who don't care for Linux and can't be bothered to request that Linux be installed. It's not as though they've got every Dell customer to make a request; only those who want something changed...

It's too early to make sense... What I'm trying to say is that the proportion of people who have gone to the feedback site is likely to be rather small from the total customer base.

Not conclusive

[NekoXP]

This just means all the people who wanted to demand something of Dell - more RAM, shinier cases, please go AMD - demanded Linux too half the time.

The people who signed up on the site to make their little ideastorms aren't representative of Dell's entire customer base even in the slightest.

You can bet there is a post on every Linux distro forum linking Dell's site telling people to go and suggest preinstalled Linux of some flavor. That skews the results too much. Internet polls just don't work, it's a fact. For statistics to be useful you first have to know what you are going to do with them once you've got the data (i.e. have a goal that needs statistics, don't collect statistics for shits and giggles) and when you do collect the data you need to be suitably impartial. There are good ways of collecting data about customer needs the same way there are good ways to interview employees for a job (psychometric testing ftw)

Re:Not conclusive

[Zphbeeblbrox]

That's all true. It doesn't change however the fact that people have demonstrated the market. It may not be as big as the windows preinstalled market. It may not be their target market. But it does exist and now they can't deny it's existence. They are still free to leave that market to someone else, but the market does exist.

Re:Not conclusive

[NekoXP]

I think the statement Dell made was not that Linux preinstalls cannot exist because nobody wants them, but that the target market isn't big enough. This poll on Dell's little ideastorm website doesn't make that false, or change their stance, or prove that they can no longer deny it as a feature.

And in any case, preinstalling Linux for geeks is a waste of time - they're the vocal minority who want preinstalled Linux because it increases mindshare but will tire of having a 6 month old distro on their laptop when they buy it, and install the latest development release anyway.

Would people be happy if they had Dapper Xubuntu installed just because it has a 10-year support cycle and Dell think that's better for customers, or do Dell take the risk and put Feisty on it?

RedHat or SuSE? Ubuntu or Debian? Think of problems like Fedora where preinstalling it on a system is against their charter (and preinstalling it and calling it Fedora even worse. The trademark licensing is atrocious. Would they bother with a Fedora-based Dell Linux?)

It's simply not as easy and simple and there aren't enough people who will appreciate it (despite demands - not the same as demand) to make it worthwhile. Windows or a BLANK laptop would be a better idea. A lack of a Windows license and preinstall. Maybe ship a CD of choice?

I think Dell might do well to allow people to uncheck the Windows button, and give a link to something like the Ubuntu "ShipIt" service. Order your Dell box and push a link to the shipping address to the Ubuntu service, so you get your CD in the mail..

Re:Not conclusive

[UncleTogie]

There are good ways of collecting data about customer needs the same way there are good ways to interview employees for a job (psychometric testing ftw)

Good example. I have about the same amount of faith in Dell's attentiveness to client needs as I do in NASA's astronaut psych test.

Re:Not conclusive

[Zphbeeblbrox]

And in any case, preinstalling Linux for geeks is a waste of time - they're the vocal minority who want preinstalled Linux because it increases mindshare but will tire of having a 6 month old distro on their laptop when they buy it, and install the latest development release anyway.

While it may be a reasonable assumption, you are still making an assumption. I am one of those vocal geeks linux geeks. Here is why I want preinstalled linux. I can buy boxes for my 5 kids and wife. Those don't have to be cutting edge. As for installing the 6 month distro release I usually upgrade. Which is fairly easy. And for hardware that Dell has already determined to be compatible is likely to be even easier. So I'm not going to be reinstalling. Which is pretty much the same as installing the latest Windows service pack or security update. The primary point is that there is a market that is larger than Dell may have previously thought and that Dell could make money at it if they wanted to.

Would people be happy if they had Dapper Xubuntu installed just because it has a 10-year support cycle and Dell think that's better for customers, or do Dell take the risk and put Feisty on it?

RedHat or SuSE? Ubuntu or Debian? Think of problems like Fedora where preinstalling it on a system is against their charter (and preinstalling it and calling it Fedora even worse. The trademark licensing is atrocious. Would they bother with a Fedora-based Dell Linux?)

And the Licensing for windows is better? No matter what OS they choose Licensing is a headache. At least with Linux they have options. Ubuntu and Debian might be a better choice than Redhat or Suse for trademark licensing. And if they really wanted to they could fork debian and like ubuntu did and have Dell Linux with community support and input into what hardware gets supported. The options give them something they don't have with MS. The idea here is that they could should they desire make money in this sector. No one is saying the have to just that they could.

Re:I think the #2 request is "no more Indians/phon

[Cederic]

I suspect most people aren't too fussed which dialect or accent the people answering the phone have.

They just want someone that can understand the dialect and accent they are using, and they want to be able to understand them too.

However empathetic you are with the Indians, if you can't understand 80% of the words they're saying, and they struggle to understand you, it's a pretty fucking worthless service.

the point of outsourcing

[weierstrass]

"suggest that they move their call centers only to NATO countries"

Hmm. you don;t seem to have quite grasped the point behind outsourcing. Almost all NATO countries have better working conditions, labour rights and minimum wages than the US. That is, better from the point of view of the worker.

No more VGA please. DVI for all and everything

[ph1l0r]

Surprising to me nobody suggested that one yet. It annoys the crap out of me every time I see our latest purchase from 2007. Optiplex computers together with shiny Ultrasharp displays. Connected analog because someone in purchasing forgot to add the PCI Riser Card together with the DVI Addin Card. His fault maybe but how comes DVI simply isn't standard? Make people pay for the adapter if they really want to screw their eyes by using a analog flatpanel display instead of one with dvi input. -> http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62483/DV I_incl_DVID_for__everything__please - Vote Am I the only that notices a difference between analog and digital signal at 1280 * 1024?

Can't be bothered?

[mynameismonkey]

* Do we really want to let people loose on Linux who can't [be bothered to] install it themselves?

As long as we maintain this sort of elitism, Linux will *never* make it as a viable desktop OS. Until Linux can pass the mother-in-law test, we're doomed to obscurity. So yes, we want people to use Linux with no fear of having to learn nasty words like "compile", "distro" and "drivers". Most people just want it to work out of the box.

Why did you stop? ;-P

[Anonymous Coward]

2007 is the year of Linux. Vis... er... XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2008 is the year of Linux. Vis... damn... XP sucks, is not selling and the revolt is on. It's about time!
2009 is the year of Vista. It's about time! Come back! Please! Or I'll throw you a chair! Now! Here! Please!

Re:Am I the only one that suspects ballot stuffing

[Ash-Fox]

you can't use the windows license for VMware use any more unless you buy Vista Ultimate

Yes you can, you just can't use the same license as the host OS unless it's Ultimate.

Re:Mod parent... Well, *you* decide...

[Daengbo]

Good in the GP modifies English, not spoken, so good should be an adjective (which it is) and not an adverb (which it isn't). Smiles.

Sounds great!

[babbling]

We only want one distribution supported. Chances are that if that one works, people will be able to easily get the others working, too.

I don't even care if Dell doesn't ship Linux with their PCs, but there are a couple of specific things I do want:
- I don't want to pay for Windows. I don't want Windows. I want a discount for not picking Windows.
- I don't want to be sold hardware that won't work in Linux. I don't expect Dell to provide "official support" for hardware in Linux, but some sort of promise or indication that they won't knowingly sell hardware incompatible with Linux would be really good.

Heh, they just removed it.

[suso]

What are the chances of that. I know I saw this on there just days ago. But they seemed to have removed it. It used to be on severs that part of the operating system choices where "No operating system, Microsoft config" and "No operating system, Linux config". Did it get removed because of my comment?

Because DELL is SOOOO good with Linux?

[sharkey]

From TFA:

Proxy Error

The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
The proxy server could not handle the request GET /.


Reason: Error reading from remote server


Apache/2.2.2 (Fedora) Server at www.dellideastorm.com Port 80

Re:not ubuntu....

[Xabraxas]

....not for USA sales,not if you are talking joe sixpack home desktops, that's just asking for trouble and annoyed customers. And the reason is very simple-no *legal* popular consumer entertainment media playback, which is right up there with what folks want to do with their computers, listen to music, watch some vids. AFAIK, of the major distros, linspire/freespire is the only ones to have or offer legal DVD, MP3, windows media, etc playback, because they have gone ahead and legally licensed, paid the fees, etc. The other ones, including ubuntu, all have the wink wink nudge nudge "do it this way" and send you off to offshore servers for downloads. Mostly right now this is ignored, but if Dell starts shipping linux pre installed and it becomes an issue because of the distro picked, those various entities involved with those things would make a stink about this downloading and installing illegal "features".

This is a total non-issue. Dell could buy licenses from fluendo and easily install the needed codecs onto each ubuntu machine.

yes

[twitter]

Don't you mean ridiculou$ ?

Yes, the message itself is paid misdirection from Microsoft. The number one bullshit message in this thread is that the poll was stuffed. About a dozen well moderated posts claim as much, but the chances are remote.

Re:yes

[Keith Russell]

You do have proof that Microsoft paid for that, right?

The main reason for Dell's resistance to Linux

[SteveWhitty]

It isn't pressure from Microsoft, it's the fact that they make so much money from the extra crap they install on Windows before they ship.

They can't exactly install the 30-day trial of McAffee antivirus on Ubuntu now, can they?

Re:The main reason for Dell's resistance to Linux

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It isn't pressure from Microsoft, it's the fact that they make so much money from the extra crap they install on Windows before they ship. They can't exactly install the 30-day trial of McAffee antivirus on Ubuntu now, can they?

That is certainly one reason, but i they can sell a machine minus the cost of a Windows OEM license, that sort of balances out. Another thing to consider is, increasing Linux market share in the home market means virgin soil for Linux crapware, with Dell positioned to create their own options and take a greater chunk of those profits. All of this is sort of academic. Even if Dell can ship Linux machines and make twice as much in crapware and don't have to eat the cost of a Windows license, Microsoft will kill them with discriminatory pricing so it is not a viable business venture for an established player.

Linux will come to the home market in one of several ways. Either the third world will adopt in en masse, making the US a technological backwater until we catch up or Businesses will adopt it for security, customizability, and manageability and it will then trickle into the home market. Alternately, it could enter the home market directly if pushed by market domination from a different market. Walmart might be able to swing it if they were determined. I can tell you it won't be Dell though; the guy with the pistol jammed in his mouth is unlikely to rescue you from the mugger.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[EsbenMoseHansen]

Or better to buy Sun machine with Solaris, that is THE server

From my experience with Solaris, I assume that you mean he is going to love his Dells after trying Solaris :p

Re:SPAM

[Ash Vince]

Actually I think my company just bought another Dell server to put linux on. Personally I would have preferred an HP server but we seem to be going with Dell's as they are slightly cheaper. We currently have four Dell Poweredge servers in a datacentre running Red Hat ES that were bought before I started working here as well.

Dell gave us a few problems with the last server we bought when they kept postponing the delivery date but they did then make it up to us by throwing a free printer our way (Currently sitting on a shelf still in its box but hey, the thought was there).

On another note, what flavour of *nix would slashdotters recommend for LAMP boxes that also need to run some form of ASP? The reason we use Redhat at present is partly due to the support option in case I ever hit a problem I can't fix. Its not happened yet but I have only been here a year. I was thinking Oracle or Solaris but have not done any serious research yet.

Re:Mod parent... Well, *you* decide...

[scruffyMark]

All the Filipinos I've met (only a handful to be honest) sounded to me like they had American accents :)

But just to agree with you, all of them had very good spoken english (if a little quiet).

Funny, I'd say speaking quietly is not exactly characteristic of an American accent.

Sounds like a great idea!

[Valdez]

I too wish they'd offer linux preinstalled as an option... that way my mom could choose Linux when she was buying a new computer... ("Oh I can save some money!"), then her computer would show up and she'd have no clue how to use it. She'd curse linux, beg me to come install something she knows how to use, and you guys may finally realize that my mom doesn't want linux on her home computer.

Ouch! Ouch Twice!

[rubmytummy]

1. www.dellideastorm.com is slashdotted
2. The floundering server is running Apache on Fedora

It's a setup!

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[daliman]

Yes, I've called them repeatedly for servers within the same price range, as well as desktops in a cheaper range. I have spoken to an Indian every single time. Personally, this doesn't bother me though; the service they gave was fine, their English was fine, so for me it's no problem. They were just as clueless as most tech support is, but that's not the point; just demand what you actually need until they give it to you :)

Side note - I was calling from NZ instead, so I would be surprised were I to speak to someone in Texas...

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Dan Farina]

What was wrong with Solaris? Besides the weird userland tools -- eg, not GNU.

Check out http://www.gnusolaris.org/ , a GNU/Solaris aimed at addressing those who would like a GNU userland.

Actually, I'd really like if Dell supported an OpenSolaris option as well -- it's a fine piece of work.

It's Like Statistics..

[iPosty.com]

Just like stats.. you can make the numbers mean whatever you want if you spin them right.. 1) Many companies that order DELL PowerEdge servers may already have a copy of the OS they want to install. For example, we used to use DELL servers and have a select/corporate Microsoft License agreement and purchase our licenses in bulk so we didn't want to (a) buy another copy or (b) have DELL do the install since we'd have to re-do it anyway. DELL is not allowed to sell a box with NO OS, so people buy the Linux box because it's cheaper. 2) as for the DELL customer request page.. that's a bunch of unscientific crap as well and if that's all DELL is using to decide what customers want they're more hosed than I thought they were. Seriously, all that ranking for "give me linux" means is that the site was floated around all the hot Linux chat rooms and all the passionate Linux geeks went and voted. There is no proof they're valid votes, or valid DELL customers, or anyone that's even old enough to buy a computer from DELL. Linux has it's place, and is making some headway, but it's not ready for the corporate desktop yet..

Re:Is it me... or is everyone else an OpenSourceFa

[JoshJ]

GNU/Solaris is in the works. If Torvalds keeps antagonizing GNU, I wouldn't be surprised to see GNU/Solaris become the favored system. Furthermore, the GNU HURD kernel is complete, but still experimental.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[LWATCDR]

Actually I have a friend that works in Dell Server Support. The person you are speaking to may actually be in Twin Falls Idaho.
It sounds as if Dell server support is actually pretty good. But then we just bought our first Dell server and haven't needed support yet.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am very much being upset that you are of the thinking we cannot speak English very correctly, you insensitive clod!

Wait - didn't Dell already try this?

[Shadoglare]

Well, maybe I'm just remembering wrong, but I could swear Dell DID offer Linux on their systems back around the turn of the century. If there really was a large demand for it - as in people actually buying pre-loaded systems - wouldn't they still be doing it? And we all know just because tons of people sign a poll saying they'd like to see Linux on the systems - that doesn't mean they're all willing to cough up the dough to actually *buy* one of those systems.

Re:Wait - didn't Dell already try this?

[WillAffleckUW]

No, they said they would give you the option on Dell dual and quad core servers only.

If you just wanted a desktop or laptop, it was not an option.

I remember, as I tried to buy a laptop from them at the time, and eventually had to talk on the phone with them to hear that I had no choice and would have to buy WindowsXP at least. So I ended up buying a cheaper WinXP laptop from a different company, just to spite them.

Re:Wait - didn't Dell already try this?

[Shadoglare]

Well, the timeframe I'm thinking of was well before XP was out - in fact 2000 was just rolling out as I recall. Might have been the same policy at the time though.

OS/2 Wins Best OS of the Year 5 Years Straight!

[xski]

Anyone remember that? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for wider adoption of Linux, but when you open something up to the public like that its an invitation for zealots to pump the numbers. And they usually do. How serious is this, Really?

-xski

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[EsbenMoseHansen]

Hehe. So far, from my limited experiences, which mostly comes from the curses of my co-worker, it is hard to install (hint: Use VMWare. Forget about installing directly, it's just too painful), the tools are awful, tar especially elicit a lot of curses (probably, GNU tools would help, but if you are going Linux... why not go all the way?) and the OS is rather unstable (As in crashed hard. No boot after crash.)

But other than that it is probably fine. But then, Linux is free, GPL and better, and so is BSD from what I hear. Well, except the GPL, obviously :)

Of course, this is completely anecdotal from one (1) install. I encourage anyone with a lot of free time to waste to try for himself.

I doubt you work for Dell, but if you do ...

[Erris]

The difficulty is being able to support every distro of Linux. It's impossible. I say that one is picked, say Ubuntu and support that with proper drivers and support.

You are telling me that Dell can't demand free Linux kernel support for any hardware they offer? First off, most hardware worth selling already has a free driver. Second any hardware maker would jump through the hoop for an order with Dell.

As for "support" for all the software on top ... do they really offer that now? When someone buys Photoshop, do they expect Dell to help them out? How about games? At that point, what you want is someone like Red Hat which does provide support for applications. It really is beyond scope for a hardware provider to "support" software, but GNU/Linux is easier to support than stuff that has owners.

The bottom line is that they only need to make hardware that has free drivers available. If they do that, then anyone can install whatever distribution they want and they will depending on the sensitivity of the data stored on the machine. Non free drivers are not really what people asking for GNU/Linux are asking for. A Dell specific distribution is only moderately more trustable and flexible than Windoze. No one is going to want something they can't replace or upgrade.

Re:Which distro? LFS of course!

[G Morgan]

Given the documentation LFS doesn't make you an uber geek. I'm pretty certain they could train a chimp to follow the instructions. The key is to understand WTF is going on as you are doing it, that's what most in our dear race have problems with. How many times must you teach someone to be able to send E-Mail before they learn to do it.

Now LFS undocumented would be a learning experience :).

Re:Which distro?

[G Morgan]

I think you'll find 99% of people won't give a crap and there will be a small number who will scream and shout that they can't get Dell with Dyne:Bolic installed.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Dan Farina]

Because GNU is not Linux. Linux is a kernel. Because Solaris has some good features, like ZFS, that Linux cannot always match.

Re:SPAM

[Sj0]

Most of my family runs Dell Dimensions, and they're quite computer literate. Depending on what you're looking for, Dell actually puts out pretty reasonable hardware for a pretty reasonable price. If what you want to do isn't gaming, then they're perfect for the job. They also run Linux terrifically, depending on the model. My Dimension 2400 I went through school with had sound, network, and 3d accelerated OpenGL in Linux.

When I graduated I fulfilled a dream I've had since the first rumors of the Hammer achitecture and bought myself an Athlon 64 with some pretty decent specs, but the truth there is that it uses more power, makes more noise, and doesn't do a whole lot more than my old Dimension 2400 with a 2.6Ghz processor and 512MB of memory. which was bought for about 500 dollars CDN.

Re:Is it me... or is everyone else an OpenSourceFa

[petrus4]

If Torvalds keeps antagonizing GNU

Should the kernel developers adopt version 3 of the GPL without question then, in your view?

Dell BIOS and Linux

[avanaardt]

Downgrade the Dell BIOS to A02, and Linux runs fine. You can download the BIOS flash from Dell.... but it only works in Windows! Duh.

OpenDell | Linux

[SIDIUS]

My two cents for Dell!

OpenDell | linux http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62705/DE LL_Linux_Distribution

:)

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[katatonia]

Hi to all, I'd like to apologize (?) for "taking your jobs away", i'm a GM customer care rep in Argentina. I do agree with most of you in the fact indian support sucks mainly because of their accent. I do want somebody to give me a call just to hear my voice message and to see just how we have evolved here in south america, (i hope you don't have any complaints from us down here) and after hearing my message some of you will be surprised about how some guy in the middle of nowhere speaks just like me. Well, i thank your country all the time, will always do, for everything i've achieved and well just listen to my message and give me feed back, that'll tell you that outsource support is not always sucky. 866-790-5700 *22375 Ps: the name you'll hear on the recording is not my real name, GM doesn't allow us to use our real names because most Americans don't know how to pronounce. Thanks for reading this and ill be waiting for some feedback.. if you don't feel like replying here my email address is leandroibarra@gmail.com

Re:Slashdot prank calls

[PowerEdge]

Yes.

Re:Am I the only one that suspects ballot stuffing

[miro f]

sorry incorrect. Try reading any of these articles.

M. Microsoftspeare

[roz174]

So what would Microsoft say to the customers when the majority starts using Linux? "I have a dream that someday all OS are prefered and used equally." "What's in a name? Linux by any other name is still just an OS."

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[Thunderbear]

I am playing around with the Developer Express version and it is actually rather nice to use in vmware (after installing the tools).

There are still some things that show that Sun still misses their target.

* In order to download a DVD-ISO you download 5 snippets which you have to _manually_ unzip and _concatenate_ to get the image. Come on - I can live with a large download

* There is no shutdown button - you need to go to root and "init 6".

There are some PATH issues (oh, why would make go in /usr/ccs/bin - which is not in the path) but when that is settled, very nice :)

I recommend it strongly as a Java testing/deployment platform. If your Windows build works there, you are pretty certain it it ok.

Re:The Indian tech support is worse.

[EsbenMoseHansen]

Well, for my case, even if I have to use Java for whatever reason, I would first develop it in Linux... the best developer OS around, in my not so humble opinion. E.g, the tools are all available on your fingertips right out of the box. Then I would test it on whatever platform it is to run on, since Java is so very sensitive to the target platform. So using Solaris as a test would only be relevant if it has to run there. But maybe Solaris is more familiar to people from the windowsworld, I wouldn't know.

Re:Which distro?

[xgr3gx]

I've bugged Dell about shipping with NO OS. Nobody wants to sell a PC with an empty hard disk, and that really annoys me. Every Linux/Unix geek has his/her way they like to set up a box. Who wants a factory linux build? They'd build like it windows. They would make one big partition for root and leave it at that. They would probably install what every distro with every single option and library available. Just like that, we're back to the bloated OS delemma. I think it would be good if Dell (among all the other vendors) to make the No OS option available for more than just servers.

Why buy from Dell anyhow???

[TKOED]

The way I understand it, Linux doesn't need the "latest and greatest" CPU, MEMORY, etc. Then why would anyone waste all that money buying brand new $600 Optiplex PCs when you can buy 3yr warranted "refurbished" units from someone like TKOEDucation.com? I know there are plenty of folks selling used equipment, but none (to my knowledge) that deal almost exclusively in off-lease Dell Optiplex ~ and we've been doing it for nearly 10 years. We offer 3yr warranted Optiplex starting at just $109 (including a new keyboard and optical mouse). Our most expensive PC is the GX280 - a Pentium 4 D 3.2GHz with 1GB of memory, and an 80GB SATA drive. For the higher-end P4s, we include brand new Logitech keyboards and a brand new Optical mouse. I did a comparison today, and what we sell for $429 is being sold on Dell's site in the high $600 range. So I ask everyone this - why would anyone consider buying new Dell units with Linux, when older Dell units (load your own Linux) is clearly the most cost-effective way to go? sdion@tkoelectronics.com www.TKOEDucation.com