T-Mobile Bans Others' Apps On Their Phones

cshamis writes "T-Mobile has recently changed their policies and now tell their customers with appropriate data plans and with Java-Micro-App-capable T-Mobile phones: no third-party network applications. You can, of course, still use their incredibly clunky and crippled built-in WAP browsers, but GoogleMaps and OperaMini are left high and dry. Would anyone care to speculate if this move is likely to retain or repel customers?"

Comments

They won't care

[Buran]

They'll just see the flashy commercials and cheap phones and cheap prices and they'll snap up what they're force-fed without realizing they can do better. Face it. People (in general) are stupid in the USA.

Re:They won't care

[Zaurus]

Stupid people live outside the US too, you insensitive clod!

Re:They won't care

[arodland]

Agreed. I was looking at an industry mag recently, and they printed a poll of cell phone users concerning churn. Basically the questions asked were: Who is your provider, are you considering leaving them in the next few months, and who are you thinking about moving to? Do you know who had the lowest "considering leaving" numbers and the highest "considering moving to" numbers? Verizon. Apparently the average Joes really like their crippled phones and their single-source philosophy.

Re:They won't care

[Radon360]

Not at first, but when their contract is up, the "stupid people" will just change to the next most appealing provider (at the time) that offers a flashy phone.

Re:They won't care

[Skater]

Yeah, pretty much. I don't really care that I can't run the latest gee-whiz app on my phone, and have all the potential security issues and all that crap. I have one app installed: Tetris. I stick with Verizon because I've had very good luck with their coverage over the years. That is, after all, the main point of a cell phone: it can make and receive calls wherever you go.

Re:They won't care

[Mr. Underbridge]

Face it. People (in general) are stupid in the USA.

Right, because other nations have had more success with their master race eugenics. Fuck off, asshole.

Re:They won't care

[MightyYar]

I'm a T-Mobile customer, but many of my friends and family use Verizon because they have the most complete network and the best customer service.

While I am a geek and like my phone to do tricks, most people just want to talk and text message. That doesn't make them idiots.

Re:They won't care

[kahrytan]

They'll just see the flashy commercials and cheap phones and cheap prices and they'll snap up what they're force-fed without realizing they can do better. Face it. People (in general) are stupid in the USA.

And you are just not figuring out people are generally stupid? People barely know how to use their Plasma TVs or DVD players. I'll bet allot of people just know how to turn on and off their plasma sets. Another exampple is Windows, it sells so big because people are stupid. It is the intelligent ones who use Linux

Re:They won't care

[kelnos]

And what's wrong with that, really? I use my phone for two things: making and receiving calls, and (reluctantly) text messaging. If another carrier is going to offer me a better price to do exactly what I want to do (and likely give me a free shiny new phone), why shouldn't I switch? I don't care about my phone's ability to run other applications, phone-company-"blessed" or otherwise.

Re:They won't care

[tomz16]

To the parent, there's a reason for Verizon's numbers looking so good...

I hate the crippled nature of verizon phones as much as the next guy, but simply can't look past the fact that my phone is fundamentally there to place and receive calls reliably. No other network I have tried (and I HAVE personally tried all of the other ones) even comes close to Verizon's coverage in the Northeast. And it's not just average joe blow... Easily 95%+ of PhD's and PhD students I know have verizon service...

Re:They won't care

[catbutt]

So people everywhere are stupid you say?

Relative to what?

Saying that seems about as meaningful as saying "people are short". Did you really not think this through, or are you just trying to prove your point by example?

Re:They won't care

[Radon360]

Absolutely nothing at all. The point is, some people will indeed judge a book by its cover, and others simply don't care, as they are just using the book to prop up that dresser with the broken leg. There is a sizeable group of customers that will buy into a company's service, uninformed, because the marketing people did their job. However, you are also correct in that there exists a fairly sizeable percentage of customers who simply don't care about anything more than making and receiving calls, as that is perhaps all they will ever do with their phone.

Bottom line, T-Mobile has started on a path to make their data offerings inferior (secure?, proprietary?) to their competitors. Yet, they will still get customers because either 1. The "stupid customer" didn't know any better, or 2. they don't care about that aspect of the service.

Re:They won't care

[SirTalon42]

Apparently the average Joes really like their crippled phones and their single-source philosophy.

Damn straight, if Joe Sixpack was interested in having a PDA he would have gotten one. Honestly I use Verizon and have had GOOD experience since I got a non-LP phone (went with the samsung flip phone, I know 2 other people with it and they all love it, as do I). Not everyone wants a 'smart phone' (any device with 'smart' in its name is instantly not smart).

Re:They won't care

[Anonymous Coward]

If I owned TMobile, I'd do the same thing. Figure it out. There are two choices. Support your phones, whether or not customers download and install 3rd party applications. Or force the customer to ONLY install tried, tested, and approved applications.
Hmmm. That's a tough one. I think I'll save money and time and force the users to stick within certain limits.

Actually, they have a 3rd choice. Sign away your warranty and support, and you can use the 3rd party applications. Good luck, thanks for playing, you're now on your own.

I've fixed computers for a friends' business. I've found over 1000 spyware installations on one PC. They were re-installing and downloading so much material that the entire office couldn't use their 512meg DSL line.
Imagine what these brainless idiots would do with a phone that had all kinds of 3rd party applications available?

There are people who will install ANYTHING if they have even the slightest hint that it might be cool. And when they wreck their phones, I'm fairly certain these same morons lie to Tmobile, saying that they don't know how it happened. Well, TMobile is sick of it. It's expensive, it's a waste of money, and it's good business sense. If Google has a great app, they can send it to Tmobile for testing and approval.

Re:They won't care

[MaggieL]

If Google has a great app, they can send it to Tmobile for testing and approval.

And if they have a great app for Windows, they should have to get it tested and approved by MSFT first. After all, imagine the support havok it could cause.

Re:They won't care

[bobdotorg]

Stupid people live outside the US too, you insensitive clod!

Yeah. And most of us post to Slashdot.

Re:They won't care

[lav-chan]

Plus, if you're willing to work for it, you can flash to another provider's firmware to get rid of all that bull shit Verizon puts (or rather, doesn't put) on their phones. This is what i plan to do with my Verizon RAZR, which i will be getting as a free upgrade next month. Horrible firmware on their phones, lately, but the coverage is great where i live and (so far) so is their customer service.

Re:They won't care

[renegadesx]

I wouldn't limit stupidity to the states, though they invented consumer stupidity, it has since spread long ago to just about every English speaking country I know of, and possibly alot of non-English speaking countries as well, wouldn't know as I only speak English and jibbarish

Re:They won't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Oooh! Drama on the internets!

You are clueless, sir. Stop typing.

Re:They won't care

[pete6677]

As a general rule, T-Mobile users care only about lots of features and cheapness. They have always had the lowest quality and service, but the most bells and whistles for the least amount of money. Nevermind that the network is so weak that you can only use them in city centers. I'd say this will work out quite well for T-Mobile, sadly enough.

Re:They won't care

[the_womble]

Relative to what?

Alternatives:

1. Relative to me!
2. We are talking about absolute stupidty, not relative stupidity.
3. Relative to what they ought to be.
4. Relative to what they would be if they were less lazy and gave their brains a bit of exercise.
5. Relative to the level at which the poster thinks - "Wow! Thats really stupid."

I think we all know what he means.

Re:They won't care

[tomz16]

IIRC, there are a few drawbacks to flashing with a non verizon firmware... one of which is the inability to ever update your PRL OTA.

-Tom

Re:They won't care

[icthus13]

Verizon has the best network where I live. Since this is primarily a *phone*, that's what I look at first.

Re:They won't care

[Anonymous Coward]

ME too. I have a tmobile dash (HTC). Google earth works but not opera. WM 6 smartphone.

bad pda, bad phone, awesome radio with wifi! Verizon has a faster data over cell (or whatever) net, but no 802.11G inmost phones. also wm 5 sp

Re:They won't care

[lav-chan]

I'm not positive, but i think that problem has been fixed with the latest 'monster' firmware and tutorials that are floating around. If you configure the Alltel firmware properly you'll be able to get your PRL normally (with *228).

Otherwise, not that big of a deal, all you have to do to update it manually is upload a list over USB once every month or two.

Re:They won't care

[davmoo]

No, that isn't it. The average Joe likes Verizon Wireless because he wants a network that works. It doesn't matter how much your phone is unlocked if the damned thing can't reliably make a phone call. If you want a phone with bling and that's all you care about, you go somewhere else. But if you want a phone that you can depend on and a reliable network most everywhere you go, especially if you're outside a major metro area, you go with Verizon Wireless.

Besides, anyone reading slashdot who's worth a damn also knowns how to unlock Verizon's crippling ;-)

Re:They won't care

[trix7117]

I just got a Verizon KRZR and flashed it to the Alltel firmware in a few hours. Once you get the Alltel firmware loaded (pretty much the standard Motorola firmware), the phone is much better. At least on the KRZR Verizon doesn't cripple the bluetooth functionality (not as much as on my V710), but it's worth the effort to flash just to get better battery life and to get rid of the horribly slow Verizon firmware.

As a previous poster noted, you could lose the ability to update the PRL using *228 (although some people have claimed to have success), but it is pretty easy to just manually update the PRL when needed.

Re:They won't care

[metaltoad]

It worked for AOL for a while too. Now look at them. Companies may get some short term gains (a few years) but long term it will play out in favor of the company that opens things up more. The more providers reselling the network, the better. Government maintained wi-fi and cellphone networks would be even better...

Re:They won't care

[IHC Navistar]

In Soviet Russia, the Governemnt is stupid.

Re:They won't care

[mjjw]

I agree. My girlfriend bought her phone because it was pink. 'Nuff said.

Re:They won't care

[jrumney]

If Google has a great app, they can send it to Tmobile for testing and approval.

I don't think you understand how approval processes work. You don't send your great app, you send a check for $20,000. Approvals for mobile phone companies are just another revenue stream, like every other service they offer.

Re:They won't care

[EveLibertine]

Douchebag, T-Mobile is a German company...

Sorry about the douchebag comment.

Re:They won't care

[squiggleslash]

You must be confusing them with Sprint PCS.

The majority of people I know on T-Mobile were attracted to it because of the quality of the network and the use of GSM. Their coverage around here seems to be substantially better than the other 1900MHz carriers (Sprint PCS, Verizon), and only slightly worse than the 800MHz carriers (Alltel and Cingular, in this area), but at much higher quality than any of those four.

T-Mobile is the current name of the old Voicestream network, which built a very high reputation back when they were far from being the cheapest network around.

Re:They won't care

[cdh]

Looking at PhD's and PhD students means nothing. They are no more "smart" in this area than anybody else. I know many Master's and above degree holders and they don't know anything about their cell phone or how it compares to anything else, they just want it to work. They are very smart in their field, but being "smart" doesn't mean that you're smart in everything.

Your own argument is probably why most of them (and probably a lot of people in the NE) have VZN: best coverage. That has nothing to do with being a PhD or even "smart", it's just a matter of either trial and error or asking others.

Re:They won't care

[poot_rootbeer]

Do you know who had the lowest "considering leaving" numbers and the highest "considering moving to" numbers? Verizon. Apparently the average Joes really like their crippled phones and their single-source philosophy.

Apparently Average Joes care more about having a strong cellular signal to talk over than the ability to install arbitrary Java applets.

Sure, Verizon's pricing and policies suck, but in my neighborhood it's the only carrier that offers more than 2 bars of signal strength indoors.

Re:They won't care

[DougReed]

It's not their crippled phones or their single source philosophy.

It's all about the phone calls. Sadly their stupid ancient network protocol makes their phones worthless outside the US, but inside the US Verizon has the most complete network. I use Verizon for one reason and one reason only... To make phone calls... I don't use it as a browser or a mail client ... just a cell phone. In this regard Verizon excels.

I have friends on just about every other vendor... We go someplace really remote, and they are always saying ... Can I use your phone?

Re:They won't care

[arth1]

I'm also a T-Mobile customer, and the question I ask, which doesn't appear to be answered by TFA is how will this affect T-Mobile's customers who don't use provider-branded phones?

Do they cripple phones (which won't affect me) or place bans on the proxy servers (which will), or what exactly do they do?

(And, come to think of it, why do so many people in the US seem to think that you have to buy the phone from the network provider?)

Regards,
--
*Art

Re:They won't care

[DrVomact]

No other network I have tried (and I HAVE personally tried all of the other ones) even comes close to Verizon's coverage in the Northeast.

That may be true. But it's not true if you want service that extends outside the United States. I was a Verizon customer once. I had to make a quick trip to Europe, and since I was about due for a new phone anyway, I went to Verizon and asked for a phone that would work in Europe. The clerk stared at me as though I'd requested a connection to Mars. Eventually, I elicited the information that they could get me a "world phone" in "a couple of weeks". I went to the T Mobile store, and got a quad-band phone without any fuss, and it worked flawlessly in the European countries (Switzerland and Germany) that I visited. I've been with T Mobile ever since. And I haven't had any problems with connections in the US, either.

Re:They won't care

[MightyYar]

In TFA it says that the locking is done at the phone level, and indeed my v360 is still running 3rd party apps with no problems. T-Mobile does not appear to run any kind of visible proxy.

This is not new news - my wife's T-Mobile Nokia is locked-down, and this is a phone that she got last spring. I'm not sure why it took this long for people to notice.

I think that people in the US feel like they have to buy phones from the carrier for two reasons.

1. Sprint/Nextel and Verizon are not GSM phones - as far as I know you DO have to buy the phones from them.
2. The remaining GSM carriers, T-Mobile and AT&T, charge you the same rate whether they are subsidizing a phone for you or not... why not get the subsidized phone that you are paying for anyway? For $20 you can generally get it unlocked anyway.

Re:They won't care

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as you would like to believe that this is a case of stupid customers, Tmobile advertises the fact that they support java applications on their phones. What they do not tell you is that they do not allow the java applications access to the network.

I was only able to find this out four months ago when trying to install other browsers on the phone. If I had known, I would not have signed up with Tmobile.

Re:They won't care

[jack_csk]

Verizon has the best customer service?! Give me a break

Re:They won't care

[MightyYar]

Sadly, they still are the among the best in an atrocious field. I'm actually satisfied with T-Mobile's customer service and I think that they even won the J.D. Power award for customer service. I used to use Sprint, and their customer service was unacceptable (that's why I left them).

T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Reverse Gear]

Seems T-Mobile might is trying to act the evil (/good depends on point of view) sys-admin here.

I guess some people will like that, and it will probably increase security for the phone, third party network applications would include all kinds of malware if I understand it correctly.

Anyhow the problem with "sys-admins" is that if they start bothering the boss because he can not play whatever little game used to play and things like this they don't last for long in the job.
Only problem is that costumers are not employees here, in that sense they are all bosses so of course T-mobile is also going to loose some costumers on this.

I don't think it will be that big a percent of costumers they loose, I personally don't use my phone for anything than talking and those pesky SMS-messages. I don't think the use of WAP is all that widespread yet, so the earlier the better to try and implement a strategy like this, before people begin getting to happy with different third party apps. Perhaps this is going to count in the positive direction for T-mobile in the long run when malware gets more and more widespread on phones, it will make T-mobile different from other network providers which might be a good thing (at least outside Germany where they have the advantage of being the biggest player).

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Anonymous Coward]

When will these morons learn. Open platforms would bring them more money in the long run. The PC industry is a prime example. Imagine if the PC were still as proprietary as Apple's Macs used to be. We'd all be living in the Stone Age still.

That said, T-Mobile has never been at the top of anyone list. They have a long history of being stupid and even a name change didn't fool most people with an IQ above a door nail.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Reaperducer]

This looks a lot like blogspam. The only form of "proof" is just a link to some guy's blog. No official T-Mobile link to the policy. Not even a supposed quote from a customer service rep on the phone. And I just tried and had no problems using OperaMobile and five other third-party apps on my phone (M600i) with T-Mobile service.

The Slashdot posting should be rescinded. It's not accurate, not backed up by any proof, and appears to be just a ploy to get page views.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Anonymous Coward]

funny how low this one scored for insulting macs ;-)

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Slashdot posting should be rescinded. It's not accurate, not backed up by any proof, and appears to be just a ploy to get page views."

not been here long have you?

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[jmc]

Agreed. I just tried Google Maps on my k790a, using the cheapo $5.99/month internet plan, and it's still running great. Same with the built-in NetFront browser, which I'm sure qualifies as a 3rd party app since it's an unlocked phone.

Not sure what the article's going on about, but it's apparently a non-issue for me. Which is a huge relief, as I just bought the phone and plan a few weeks ago.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[ACMENEWSLLC]

>>This looks a lot like blogspam.

I've been with TMobile for a year. As a company, I love them. The network isn't everywhere like AT&T. I don't have all the features of others. But they have perks that cost anywhere from $29-59US/mo on other networks that are available for all, if you know about them.

I'm not getting into the details as that would just get this area turned off, but my experience tells me this probably is blogspam.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Shemmie]

And to add to that, the basic Web N Walk T-Mobile package in the UK works just fine with Google Maps.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[ygslash]

This looks a lot like blogspam. The only form of "proof" is just a link to some guy's blog. No official T-Mobile link to the policy. Not even a supposed quote from a customer service rep on the phone. And I just tried and had no problems using OperaMobile and five other third-party apps on my phone (M600i) with T-Mobile service.

Nope, it appears to be real. Here are some comments from the blog:

• I have gotten this confirmed by T-Mobile corporate. I have a tester SIM that has access to everything, and the applications are locked out in the new handsets I have been testing this week. You may have an older handset, before this insidious policy spread. I used to tout T-Mobile for their liberal policies on third party program installation, and I'm very disappointed in the change.

  This is a feature phone problem. No carrier, not even Verizon, dares forbid application installation on smartphones such as Blackberries, Windows Mobile phones, or Treos.

• The phone that drove me nuts was a Nokia 6133, and I think the point that it's subsidized is bizarre; letting people use Opera Mini would increase, not decrease, T-Mobile's revenues by encouraging people to sign up for data plans. T-Mobile is shooting themselves in the foot by crippling the development of the third party software industry, lowering demand for mobile data.

  As several posters have said, they make money on the data plans, not on the phones - so why prohibit applications that would get people to demand data plans?

  Subsidies also seem to be a smokescreen here. If you go to a T-Mobile store and buy a Nokia 6133 at full retail, mid-contract, Opera Mini is barred. If you go to a Nokia store and buy the same 6133, inserting the same T-Mobile SIM, you have no problem.

  And I need to repeat - this isn't about smartphones. I'm not talking about the SDA, the Blackberry, or whatever. I'm talking about feature phones, which could be dandy computing platforms if the carriers weren't so hostile.

• THIS IS TRUE REPORTING! I recently bought a Samsung Trace (T519) and installed google maps. It didn't work, and after about 12 nonstop hours of research I found out that their applications are all digitally signed (VeriSign) and will block out the permissions menu for the network access, thus resulting in the application not being able to connect itself to the internet. The ONLY SOULUTION to this problem is to buy the Firmware Flash cable, download the Flashing software from the phone manufactures website, (and the real tricky part) then find the ORIGINAL firmware to flash to the phone. Of course your going to have to manually set up your T-Zones (webaccess address and port) and a few others, but it will unlock ALL the features of the phone so you will be able to use the phone fully. It's a tricky process, and you need to make sure your not using a T-Mobile "Branded" firmware update. There are many independent phone gurus out there that edit firmware and release it themselves with all features unlocked. If you use a T-Mobile Branded firmware, you'll waste money and time to be exactly where you are right now.

  IE... Cingular's D807 and T-Mobile's T809. They are the same phone, same display, memory card slot, ect... However, T-Mobile's phone has limited features compared to Cingular's. The D807 has voice activation and a few other bells and whistles. This isn't the phone's hardware, it's the firmware.

  In short, get yourself the syncing software & cables and a fresh Firmware update and you will be able to run any app. Right now Cingular doesn't limit 3rd party software, so if you have to, use one of their Firmwares and then tweak your port settings and you'll be free and clear of the holdups of horrible T-Mobile.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Lumpy]

The solution is to use a unlocked phone on T-mobile. Esp if you have the firmware modified to ignore their tricks and attempts. A buddy of mine did that for his Razr and also did it for mine right after he unlocked it.(I am on AT&T/Cingular/AT&T)

you can keep them from screwing with your phone or forcing updates. it does make it a pita when they change the internet settings so you have to go hunting online because the customer service reps dont have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[presidentbeef]

I have a T-Mobile Dash and I live in the LA area. Google Maps stopped working over the weekend, and, strangely enough, even Internet Explorer isn't working(?!) The only thing that does work is getting email.

The sweet thing about T-Mobile was having Google Maps and an Internet connection (nearly) all the time for just $5.99/month. Now I can't even browse the Internet? Lame. Super lame.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[bblboy54]

I guess some people will like that, and it will probably increase security for the phone, third party network applications would include all kinds of malware if I understand it correctly.

Yes, Paris Hilton will be proud.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are so many athiests so angry and intolerant, especially at the mere mention of religion?

Because you guys fight so hard to encode your shared delusions into the laws that I have to obey? Just a wild guess.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. That sig has annoyed me for ages.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[DeathElk]

Thank you. Well said.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are so many athiests so angry and intolerant, especially at the mere mention of religion?

Self defense from holier-than-thou theists. Oh, you thought making a snide comment in your sig would let you get the last word in?

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[waynelorentz]

Smooth move. You walked right into that one and proved his/her point by using the word "delusions." You can't find a more civil way to disagree on philosophy? You make all athiests look like the people he thinks they are.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Ash-Fox]

The PC industry is a prime example. Imagine if the PC were still as proprietary as Apple's Macs used to be. We'd all be living in the Stone Age still.

NO!!11!! PCS COPY MACS AND HAVE CRAPPY HARDWARE AND DRIVERS eafAFKAO JFEAJF OJAEKFOAEMBAE#@%$^#%$@53,ktmmvksmvksmvks!GRMS KBMRKS Vrtgosrkbfpgkashdthgsvng[hlf[gl
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Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[FooAtWFU]

Please calm yourself, and recognize that to strike back with violent energy, lashing out at the mention of religion, it's not really that much better than the attempted transgressions of those whom you accuse. There are so many people out there on Slashdot and such who will say things to the effect that religion ought to be banned, or religious is the root of all evil, and this and that and the other thing. Don't pretend you're not trying to shape the world with rhetoric like that, too. Maybe you don't have the political muscle to enforce your will, but if that's your angle, you're at least as bad as they are.

In any event. You overgeneralize. Do not let the loudest of the midwestern fundamentalist Protestants turn you against all the religion in the world, or even all Christianity. There is more out there. Yes, they all want to change the world a little and yes, many of them will vote on certain issues at least in part because of their religion. But you'll usually find that religious law isn't really that widely supported, at least on this continent.

And if you go on lashing out at all people with a religion as "shared delusions", well, it really won't get you very far except with people who were already going to listen to you anyway. That sort of partisan rhetoric is useless save to call together your supporters to do battle with the foe. (And they complained "there is no war against religion".) Show your enemy a little respect. Name-calling and such drags you down and cheapens your words. It brings out the worst in both you and your opponents, turning the debate from the sphere of the rational to that of the emotional. Politics makes little enough sense as it is. This doesn't help.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Kelson]

The only form of "proof" is just a link to some guy's blog.

I can personally confirm that Opera Mini, which worked fine on my T-Mobile RAZR a couple of weeks ago, is no longer able to connect to the internet.

Maybe T-Mobile's blocking it. Maybe there's some sort of network error. But there does seem to be something to this.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[KDR_11k]

Probably because the comparison is stupid. We're talking about locking down the software, not limiting your hardware choice.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[KDR_11k]

Well, he IS an atheist and as such his belief is that theism is a mass delusion.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Buran]

Fine. Prove that your god/goddess/pantheon exists. You can't? Looks to me like you're imagining things.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[westlake]

The posting.. It's not accurate, not backed up by any proof, and appears to be just a ploy to get page views.

and this comes as a surprise?

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[schiefaw]

No, it's true. T-Mobile has locked down the java runtime stack to only allow network connections for apps that are "T-Mobile certified". I upgraded to a Nokia 6103 and could not get Java apps to access the network (I have the $19.99 unlimited plan). There is an option to control network access for Java apps, but it is grayed out.

I therefore had my old phone (Nokia 6600) flashed with the latest OS so the bluetooth stack would work with my Palm and I have reverted to my old phone. I was not real interested in the iPhone due to the restriction on adding additional software, but if all of the phones are going to be that way I may have to reevaluate the situation.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[saschasegan]

Are you in the US? In any case, if you're using a Sony Ericsson M600i, you wouldn't encounter this problem, as it isn't a T-Mobile US branded phone. This problem only applies to T-Mobile branded phones, sold through T-Mobile stores, in the US. In fact, the relatively liberal policies of T-Mobile Europe only make the restrictive policies of the US subsidiary more annoying. By the way, I posted the post. I'm the lead analyst for cell phones and PDAs at PC Magazine, and the post was a bit of original journalism that I got confirmed by my corporate contacts at T-Mobile. The fact that T-Mobile isn't shouting out loud about this policy only makes it more shady, but they don't deny it if asked point blank.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[j-turkey]

This looks a lot like blogspam. The only form of "proof" is just a link to some guy's blog. No official T-Mobile link to the policy. Not even a supposed quote from a customer service rep on the phone

Dude, I read it on the Internet -- it must be true!

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't block any applications. they closed open ports. There are proxy workarounds. I just got a TMobile Dash and I dont have a problem other than I had to reapply the workaround last night.

Re:T-mobile acting sys-admin

[Reaperducer]

Imagination and delusion aren't the same thing. But it's nice to see that the mere mention of religion could bring out your anger and intolerance.

Great Error Message

[Zaurus]

"Nothing for you to see here. Please move along."

So often appropriate. Tell me, is there a guide for creating these sorts of profound error messages?

I suppose, "Sorry, only Slashdot-approved comments" would have been an even more appropriate error message for this article...

Re:Great Error Message

[Zaurus]

Here, let me reverse my comment and see if it still gets modded "offtopic":
--------
I suppose, "Sorry, only Slashdot-approved comments" would have been an even more appropriate error message for this article...

The standard error message here is so often appropriate. Tell me, is there a guide for creating these sorts of profound error messages?

e.g. "Nothing for you to see here. Please move along."

Time to switch

[moria]

Now it's the time switch to Cingular, and get and iPhone, to continue using my 3rd party applications. oh wait...

Re:Time to switch

[JimXugle]

I was considering switching to Tmobile from Cingular... and this repels me more than Cingular's Shitty phones.

Re:Time to switch

[countSudoku()]

And how! I'll just keep using my crappy cingular RAZR (lame frickin' GUI, and a whopping 5mb of user space in a pretty clamshell, whoo hooo, at least I can run gmail/goomap and miniOpera 3) until I can get a iPhone. Also, hacking into someone's voicemail box on T-mobile is not only a pain in the ass, it's expensive as their 866message number is a toll call for me. HA! Thanks for the warning about T-Mobile though, I can safely avoid them like the plague.

T-Mobile you are teh suck!

Re:Time to switch

[edwardpickman]

IPhone does have nice intergrated map support. This is likely to be a trend in part to protect their hardware and network as well as to protect profits of their own products that the other apps might compete with. I think the iPhone is positioned well to eventually accept 3rd party desktop apps. It may be a generation or two but I think people are radically underestimating the potential of the iPhone. The primary limitation will be CPU power since they are stuck using lower power chips to extend battery life. Still leaves open using office apps and even some modest graphic applications. At it's core the iPhone is a PDA on some serious steriods using a full OS.

Re:Time to switch

[Aereus]

I was under the impression that Cingular still uses SIMM chips though, correct? You could always import one of the nifty Japanese handsets then and use your SIMM chip in it. Assuming the handset can use the type of network Cingular has. (I know Japan uses CDMA2000, but I think some handsets are compliant with US networks)

Re:Time to switch

[jellomizer]

Oddly enough most people use cell phones not to run apps but to... Talk to other people... I don't the T-Mobile ban will do much, for the bulk of the population. Mostly because they seem to have better pricing, for use of a telephone. I just recently switch to Cingular Because I could save $10 a month over Verizon, and has the same coverage. I was looking at T-Mobile but they had bad coverage in my area, so I didn't go with them. If they did have good coverage and I still read this article I would probably still go with them because they would be cheaper. 99% of the time I use the software that is already on the phone, or just make Telephone calls. If I wanted google maps or other software I will use my laptop.

Re:Time to switch

[JimXugle]

I've looked into that.

Cingular uses the 850/1900MHz bands for both GSM (2g) and UMTS/HSDPA (3g). The Standard used in the rest of the world is 900/1800MHz for GSM and 2100MHz for UMTS. If I could find a Japanese phone that supports 1900MHz GSM, it would most likely only have 2100MHz UMTS, and lack 850MHz GSM... which is important in my area, since it's semi-rural (and lacks UMTS on anyway).

In a nutshell:
If I import a Japanese phone, it would work half-assed in my area, even under the older GSM networks, if at all. Blame the FCC.

Re:Time to switch

[fm6]

I recently switched to Cingular because their phones are a lot more open than the competition. So there's nothing stopping third parties from writing applications that (for example) sync your phone with your Palm PDA and/or Desktop.

Did I say "nothing"? I meant "nothing technical or legal". There's only a couple of applications out there that do this sort of thing, and they're both crap, obviously written by some inept hacker in his spare time. I guess the market for this sort of thing isn't big enough to attract a serious player. As you say, most people just want to talk to other people.

The other reason I went with Cingular was their use of GSM. I always figured GSM/GPRS was the true geek's cell phone protocol, because it is more international, more hackable, and supports connectionless data transfer (meaning you can buy your connection by the packet, instead of by the minute). And it is all that, But there don't seem to be enough Cingular/GSM hackers to make it worthwhile. And now I'm stuck with a phone I can't use around speakers!

Re:Time to switch

[Anonymous Coward]

TM is the least locked down of all the mobile providers. You can always buy an unbranded phone and run anything you want. You can also do this on Cingular, but they limit access especially if you use their internet.

Re:Time to switch

[maitai]

That and the fact Japan is mostly CDMA.

But I imported a black GSM KRZR K1 from Thailand to the US and it works fine (I'm a T-Mobile customer).

And it supports GSM 850,900,1800 and 1900.

On the article topic itself. Opera Mini and Google Maps both appeared to have stopped working on my phone as of today.

Seems a bit backwards.

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that like having your ISP tell you what you can run on your computer?

Re:Seems a bit backwards.

[lpontiac]

What makes you think that won't be the case eventually?

Re:Seems a bit backwards.

[maxwell demon]

Well, when some ISP requires the use of special dial-in software, and that software runs only on Windows, that's effectively restricting what users can run on their computers. Not by order, but non-Windows users will just not be able to connect.

It will repel 0.001% of them...

[dpbsmith]

... all of whom will be cottage-industry entrepreneurs whose business plans called for them to get a 10% share of the market for third-party applications running on T-Mobile phones.

Well crap

[LWATCDR]

I was really thinking of going with T-Mobile because the are supposed to have the best customer support. Oh well they are off my list now.
Sprint has been pretty good for me I guess I will probably stay with them.

Re:Well crap

[Billly Gates]

Sprint does the same thing and you need to pay more to use your own phone to cover the cost of not using sprints own apps.

Re:Well crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting AC because I'm pretty sure my job officially requires me to "support our partners." Basically, I work in a tech support field where I deal with reps from pretty much all carriers in North America.

I can't vouch for all areas, but at least in terms of tech support for what I work with, T-Mobile is undeniably awful. They neglect basic steps that a first-day-on-the-job trainee at my workplace would know off by heart, routinely plunk customers into our call queues (which have zero hold time) without staying on the line to tell us what the issue is or what they've done, and sometimes they don't even tell the customer they're transferring to us - so the customer just gets put on hold, and when someone picks up again, he doesn't know what just happened or why he's talking to someone else.

They have a terrible lack of knowledge of their own systems, and zero knowledge of ours, when their jobs are meant to require full knowledge of both. My company is supposed to be offering the next tier of support for their customers, but it's gotten to where we are basic T-Mobile support, along with upper-tier support for all other carriers.

This policy of blocking things isn't new to them either. For instance, T-Mobile arbitrarily ruled that you cannot set up a Hotmail/MSN/Windows Live Mail email account on their devices (smartphones and BlackBerries and the like) that support it. Why? Who knows. My best guess is that it is because T-Mobile and AOL are owned by the same parent company and they are trying to make it inconvenient to use other email services, but I have no idea.

Best technical support is by far offered by one of the Canadian carriers, Rogers. They have awful customer service and billing policies though. But they sure as hell know how to fix anything.

Re:Well crap

[Radon360]

Sprint does the same thing and you need to pay more to use your own phone to cover the cost of not using sprints own apps.

Strange. Sprint never charged me a red cent more for downloading and using Google Maps. I do have an unlimited "Sprint PCS vision" plan, though. If you don't have this, you'll pay a penny a kB no matter who's content you use.

Re:Well crap

[tcc3]

I agree with Radon, did you just make that up? I've had a Sprint Treo for years and have had no trouble running anything I want with out asking Sprints permission.

Re:Well crap

[pandaba]

Not true at all. Not only does Sprint not charge more, but they have a completely open policy towards 3rd party apps. The only thing they'll do is nag you when installing a new app with a warning that this might be dangerous. Other than that, there isn't any impediment.

And there's no attempt to lock down bluetooth. They tried locking it with one of their first BT-capable phones but then they did something very surprising for a cell phone company: they listened to customer complaints and offered a firmware update to unlock it and haven't locked it on any of the current models, as far as I know.

They're pretty flexible with data plans. Since my unlimited data is for a phone, not for one of their wireless cards, I'm not supposed to use it extensively with a computer. But after the DSL went out for three days, I used the 3G phone as a replacement connection and had it connected for almost the entire 3 days. No complaints from them and no extra charges.

So I'm surprised they're not a more popular company with the geek crowd. As far as I can see, they're the least restrictive of any of the major American carriers.

And now that I've said something nice about a cell phone company, they'll probably implement some terrible policy tomorrow.

Re:Well crap

[toadlife]

I've been a T-Mobile customer for five years and their customer service is decent IMO. It certainly isn't what I would call great (some of them are a bit "dumb" and we've had a couple of instances where they didn't seem to know enough about their own products), but this is not far from the experience I've had with any other company.

As for not being able to set up other email accounts, on my Blackberry I can set up any email account that has pop/Imap access with no trouble, and Google maps and opera mini work great.

And from RTFA, apparently this software restriction policy does not apply to "smartphones", like the Blackberry and Windows mobile phones, only the cheaper "feature phones".

The main reason I've stuck with Tmobile for so long is that their prices are lower than any other carrier. My wife and I have actively looked for a better deal every time our contract comes up, but so far no carrier we've ever looked into had ever been able to touch tmobiles prices.

Re:Well crap

[TubeSteak]

TFA explains that this feature lockdown only applies to new T-Mobile phones with new firmware.

Get your phone somewhere else & you'll have no issues.

Re:Well crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, it's only the Microsoft-based email accounts that they block, as I said. Whether or not you can set up other POP/IMAP email accounts has no real bearing on that fact.

Re:Well crap

[LWATCDR]

No they don't I have Opera and Google maps loaded on my cell but I have been charged.

Re:Well crap

[timmy the large]

Then you need to go to the sprint store and get them to fix your bill. I have Sprint Vision and browse with opera and use google maps and all the rest. The only problem I have is that my Treo 650 cannot connect to the high speed network. You need a 700 or 680 and I cannot afford to upgrade.

Sprint is reasonably priced and relatively decent, but, like most cell companies, you really need to watch that bill and raise hell if they hit you with bogus charges. Cell companies are notorious for this.

Re:Well crap

[Reaperducer]

Why buys phones from the carriers anymore, anyway? Certainly not the Slashdot crowd, which is the sort of person this would affect most. This isn't 1987 when you're locked into some analog carrier's bag phone. Go on the internet or to the corner (non-carrier-owned) store and buy what you want that matches your carrier's technology.

Re:Well crap

[dwillden]

T-Mobile and AOL are owned by the same parent company

Since when? AOL is part of Time Warner, T-Mobile is the US branch of Deutsch Telekom. Now while DT did or does manage the AOL Germany service, AOL is not part of T-Mobile.

Re:Well crap

[Anonymous Coward]

You are absolutely right. I am sorry for posting that bit of erroneous information. I simply restated what I had heard as a theory for their policy, without fact checking it.

That does, however, make it even more confusing as to why they block those types of accounts. And they definitely do that; just try setting up an old hotmail account with POP or one of the hotmail plus ones (who actually buys that?) on your blackberry with TMO. Then try the same thing with a different service provider, and see the difference.

Re:Well crap

[DusterBar]

I agree - I have been with Sprint (both wireless and before that wired) for quite some time. Every time I think I may want to switch, I do some research and it comes out that Sprint is the best.

And with my Treo 650, I can run anything I can write (or others have written) for the Palm and there is no restriction or extra costs. Just the $10/month unlimited data plan (on top of the phone costs, which also are very competitive if not the best)

One "problem" Sprint has is that they don't give away the phones as much as other carriers. I paid $325 for my Treo back when I got it. From Verison I could have gotten the phone for $50 (AR). However, by now, I would have ended up paying much more and had more problems with some of their service. (They have a number of dead spots in this area, about twice to three times as many as Sprint)

Re:Well crap

[maitai]

Oddly, I have an unlocked KRZR K1 that I imported. And as of today it appears bothGoogle Maps and Opera Mini no longer have working network connectivity on my phone.

Although, I've never paid T-Mobile for a data plan (they know, I've talked to them about it) so maybe that has something to do with it?

Of course it could just be a fluke, this isn't the first time I've lost my networking for a bit (although this is the first time the it's been more than an hour or two)

It's not like the phone doesn't have network connectivity to begin with, it's just that the built in browser went through a T-Mobile owned proxy. Other apps could access the internet just fine. And of course, if you have a phone where the WebSessions settings are not disabled, you could change the default proxy to another and also bypass T-Mobiles wish for you to pay for a data plan.

As of right now, that no longer seems to be working for me (again, it could just be a fluke but the article makes me think otherwise).

Oh, and when I talked to T-Mobile (I was pretty surprised when I found out 3rd party networked apps were working on my phone) they told me that it'd "possibly" be charged as text messaging. But I have unlimited text messaging so that's moot.

Re:Well crap

[LWATCDR]

Sorry that was a typo on my part I meant to say I have not been charged a cent. I agree with you :)

Trying To Win Over Apple iPhone Fans?

[Anonymous Coward]

The unveiling of the Apple iPhone showed that Apple fans crave a phone that doesn't allow third parties to run on the hardware...

Right?

Or is it once again "I only like it if Apple does it"?

Re:Trying To Win Over Apple iPhone Fans?

[Tim Browse]

Or is it once again "I only like it if Apple does it"?

There may be another choice.

Re:Trying To Win Over Apple iPhone Fans?

[Paulrothrock]

If the T-Mobile apps are as good as the iPhone apps, I don't think many people would care enough to want to try and hack it.

But I seriously doubt it.

Repel, obviously...

[core_dump_0]

1. Piss off your customers
2. Lose them to competitors
3. ?
4. Profit!

Re:Repel, obviously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Close.... more like: 1)Piss off those customers that make full use of their data plan, so actually end up costing the company which severely oversold their services. 2)Lose them to competitors 3)Have lower costs 4)Profit!

Re:Repel, obviously...

[Joyce Hatto]

1. Piss off your customers
2. Lose them to competitors
3. Sell CDs of your wife playing piano
4. Profit!

Re:Repel, obviously...

[PRMan]

Hidden in this is the assumption that the competitors treat their customers better...

It's more like this:

1. Piss off your customers
2. Retain them because the competition is equally bad or worse and because you made them sign 2-year deals that they didn't want
3. Reduce difficult and time-consuming support costs that can't be handled by Raju in India reading a script
4. Profit

Re:Repel, obviously...

[Adambomb]

In the case of telecomm, this is less of a joke than you would think as far as I see things.

The infamous step 3 in this case is "have competitors do exact same thing" so you have indirect collusion which leads to rotating customers back and forth. The company which repelled the client gets an LTCC out of many cases, while the competitor gets a "new business" metric. All they have to do then is delay their deactivations enough that new activations outweigh them so they appear to be flourishing.

It seems to be quite the trend in north american telecom business models it seems to inflate growth figures for their investors.

Think crop rotation and I think you'll get the gist of it.

Note: as far as I see things. seems to.

Re:Repel, obviously...

[dykofone]

It's the business model pioneered by the airline industry in the mid-90's:

"Just so long as they breed faster than we can piss em off."

It didn't seem to work extremely well for the airline industry, yet it seems to be popping up more and more...

Re:Repel, obviously...

[RalphBNumbers]

Here, let me fill that in for you:

1. Piss off your customers
2. Lose them to competitors
3. Save on support and usage costs, now that your most expensively eccentric customers are a burden on your competitor's network instead of your own.
4. Profit!

Have you ever wondered why so many tech-related service organizations, like ISPs, have such geek-hostile policies? It isn't all incompetence, some of them really *are* asking us to take our business elsewhere.

These companies make their money on averages. The average user pays x dollars and costs y:yx dollars to support. A geek still pays x dollars but due to their generally heavier, and less mainstream, usage patterns they can cost far more than they pay in to the system to support. If service providers can selectively move expensive geeks off of their customer list and onto their competitors', without irritating the average customer, they stand to save themselves a lot of money, and maybe even drive up their competitor's costs at the same time.

The chief problem with this tactic is that it can generate negative word of mouth. But obviously a lot of companies aren't worried enough about that to let it stop them.

Re:Repel, obviously...

[RalphBNumbers]

Oops, there's supposed to be a < between the x and y after the colon, so that it says y:y<x, but I forgot to escape it.

Screw them

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll keep my Cingular Blackberry with my Google Maps and a couple home built Java Apps and T-Mobile can screw off.

Likely to attract or repel customers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, that is a tough question. I'll take a wild guess and say that it'll repel customers unless they're (1) unaware or (2) don't know how to use 3rd-party apps.

I was about to a switch from Sprint to T-Mobile this week, but will now go with a different carrier (unless the other carrier adopts a similar policy).

I suspect T-Mobile is worried that people will start using Skype on their network.

In Other Words

[mfh]

Users Hack their T-Mobile Phones

(Magic marker sold separately!)

Re:In Other Words

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

And in our next story, users get sued and prosecuted and are assessed millions in damages and sentenced to 5 years by the courts for DMCA violations.

Infringements on our liberties?

[winkydink]

Testing some T-Mobile phones recently, I once again ran into T-Mobile's annoying policy of banning third-party applications from accessing the Internet on their phones. Like so many infringements on our liberties, this started stealthily with a few devices but now covers their entire product line.

Geez... has the author considered calling them up trying to get out of his contract or if he doesn't have one, to simply cancel and move to another carrier?

What's that? T-Mobile's data plan costs less? Sounds to me like one is gettign what one paid for.

Infringements on our liberties. Puh-leez.... Yeah, I rate this right up their with warrantless wiretapping by the government.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[happyfrogcow]

Well to some degree it is. The whole idea that a service contract can be modified by one party at any time, without consent of the other party, is a little rediculous sounding (to myself, who has no idea about contract law really).

I do agree with you in that the author's tone was a little melodramatic.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[Tintivilus]

What's that? T-Mobile's data plan costs less?

Except it doesn't. I just switched from T-Mo to Cingular solely based on their data plans, so the pros and cons are pretty fresh in my memory. T-Mo is $29.99 monthly for GPRS/EDGE internet *AND* Wi-Fi (they're an inseperable bundle now), where Cingular is $19.99 for GPRS/EDGE/UMTS/HSDPA internet. T-Mo's $5.99 T-MobileWeb or whatever is proxied crap; it doesn't even support HTTPS, so no online finance. Cingular's cheapo ($19.99) service comes with a Thou Shalt Not Tether clause that T-Mo omits from their $29.99 plan, but it's no worry for feature-phone data service.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[winkydink]

If you are polite and persistent, you can usually get out of a term contract if some significant underlying functionality changes during the term.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[winkydink]

It's been a while since I looked, but isn't Cingular's $19.95 plan capped at some max number of bits/month versus T-Mobile's $29.95 being uncapped?

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[Anonymous Coward]

Geez... has the author considered calling them up trying to get out of his contract or if he doesn't have one, to simply cancel and move to another carrier?

I'm not the author, but I have a T-Mobile plan. I also have an unlocked GSM phone from hong kong bought off eBay. I'd been wondering for three months why I couldn't get a network connection even though I pay $80/mo for unlimited data, 600 minutes and 400 txt. I thought it was because I moved to a state where T-mobile doesn't offer service and I am "roaming." This article just clued me in as to the real reason why. Result, I'll pay the $200 fee and cancel my contract. Fuck you T-Mobile. You just lost $82/month for the next 16 months. ($82 *16 - $200 = $1112). And even if I don't get it, I'll be asking one of your reps for a refund for the last three months of "unlimited" data access that I never got. I never signed anything, or received anything regarding a policy change toward 3rd party apps. I hope someone brings a class action against your sorry asses, but I'll be content in taking over $1000 to another vendor. Fuck You very much T-Mobile. I hope you go out of business.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[cgenman]

It wasn't capped when I signed up, though that was promotion for their 3g line.

I would assume there is actually *some* cap way, way up there, but I've never seen it.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[rickb928]

WiFi included? What? My Blackberry Unlimited plan doesn't mention WiFi at all.

How do I get the WiFi thing?

-rick

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[goaliemn]

I pay $19.95/mo for my blackberry service, not the $29.95/mo mentioned above.. plus, none of the currently supported BB support wifi anyways.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[jrumney]

Why would you pay $200 to get out of a contract where the other party has not met the terms agreed on?

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[saschasegan]

I don't have a contract with T-Mobile; I'm a professional cell phone reviewer for PC Magazine. I review phones on all the major US carriers, compare them, and make recommendations. T-Mobile has been editing the firmware on some of their branded phones to forbid third party applications, and I think that's unwise for T-Mobile and bad for consumers.

This T-Mobile policy (as well as Verizon's BREW signing policy) harms consumers by limiting their software choices and helps strangle the growth of a vibrant, competitive third party software market for mobile phones. Stomping on competition stomps on innovation, ultimately preventing these devices from developing into the computing platforms they could be (and thus changing peoples' lives even more profoundly than they have.)

From T-Mobile's perspective, forbidding third party apps and thus reducing the vibrancy of the mobile phone software market makes data plans considerably less attractive to users and potentially lowers T-Mobile's data revenue. They're shooting themselves in the foot. It's a self-defeating policy, and deserves to be fought.

Re:Infringements on our liberties?

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, I don't have the time to pursue it. Several hours of my time is worth far more than the two to three hundred bucks I might get out of them. Losing a revenue stream like myself OTOH will hurt them plenty.

Their Sidekick has always done this

[Anonymous Coward]

The TMobile Sidekick (Hiptop) has always been like this...in fact they will ban you from their support bboard for even mentioning the existence of third-party apps. I think that TMobile finds the "security" (i.e. revenue protection) of the closed Hiptop platform a very attractive feature.

So long, T-Mobile

[Anonymous Coward]

They're about to lose me; My contract expires in a few months, and I deserve a better phone without these damn restrictions. Screw you, T-Mobile.

doesn't matter

[igotmybfg]

The people who know better can fix their phones (most of you probably unlocked your phone already, or bought it unlocked from a third party). The people who don't, don't care anyway.

Re:doesn't matter

[Bagpiper]

It sounds that simple, but this hurts the independent software vendor. Why should they prevent me, a software vendor, from selling my software to you, or better yet, your mother?

Re:doesn't matter

[igotmybfg]

Because they have no obligation to be "nice" to you?

misleading headling

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose it's not too surprising, but the headline is misleading. There is no mention of blocking 3rd party applications altogether, just those that need to access the network. I don't believe they are the first carrier to do this.

Re:misleading headling

[tepples]

There is no mention of blocking 3rd party applications altogether, just those that need to access the network. Then how do you download apps to your phone other than through the network? Do network operators still require proprietary PC-phone data cables that cost 50 USD extra?

Re:misleading headling

[Anonymous Coward]

Bluetooth... and Moto phones at least use a standard USB cable.

Re:misleading headling

[ScottyMcScott]

I for one welcome our overlord headlings.

maybe their network/OS sucks like iPhone/Cingular

[straponego]

Maybe a single buggy application on their phones can take down their entire West Coast network, like the CEOs of Apple and Cingular claim of their combination. Hey, also, since Mr. Jobs claims that iPhone is OS X, and any third party applications will crash iPhone, is it true that any third party apps will crash OS X?

I mean, the only alternative is that they are lying, greedy scumbags, and I wouldn't want to think that about anybody.

Don't get t-mobile branded phones

[Dionysus]

One of the reason I'm on T-mobile is because I can use my own unlocked GSM phone on their network. As long as that is still true, I really don't care. I don't even think I've ever owned a T-mobile branded phone (all my phones have been unlocked gsm phones I picked up when I was in Europe).

Of course, this will hurt t-mobile. If I was Cingular, I would heavily advertise this.

How Very Verizon of Them

[ewhac]

Does this constitute one of those material changes to the service contract that lets you cancel early without a termination fee?

Schwab

Then which indie handheld?

[tepples]

I have one app installed: Tetris. Does it have the infinite spin and T-spin triple maneuvers?

That is, after all, the main point of a cell phone: it can make and receive calls wherever you go. So what handheld device sold in the United States is intended for running handheld video games developed by independents?

Re:Then which indie handheld?

[damiangerous]

So what handheld device sold in the United States is intended for running handheld video games developed by independents?

A Palm or PocketPC. Both offer a free development platform and no cost distribution.

Re:Then which indie handheld?

[tepples]

A Palm or PocketPC. Both offer a free development platform and no cost distribution. Where's the D-pad? Or should all independent game developers who have a working PC prototype of a game that uses a D-pad be forced to make a second, unrelated touch screen game for Pocket PC first and sell it in order to prove experience such that they might be allowed to develop on handhelds that have a D-pad? And aren't Pocket PC smartphones eclipsing Pocket PC PDAs? Are Pocket PC smartphones locked in the same way?

Re:Then which indie handheld?

[arodland]

Where's the D-pad? Towards the bottom, usually.

Re:Then which indie handheld?

[damiangerous]

All PocketPCs that I'm aware of have a D-pad. I'm fairly certain all modern PalmOS devices do as well. Smartphones have the same capability to install software as any other PC. They may or may not have additional OTA capability. Otherwise, I don't get what you're getting at. No one is "forced" to do anything. The barrier to entry is high if you want to publish a DS or PSP game, sure, but that's life and gaming systems are luxury items.

Re:Then which indie handheld?

[Dogtanian]

So what handheld device sold in the United States Since you mention it, can we assume that this article is U.S.-based, and how applicable is it to other countries?

Re:Then which indie handheld?

[drinkypoo]

Pretty much all Windows Mobile devices have a D-pad, but if you want a better controller, there are bluetooth HID devices available made specifically for PDAs. They look basically like a gamepad with a PDA cradle in the middle.

Re:Then which indie handheld?

[vincentj7]

The Windows Mobile 5 SDK may be free, but it requires Visual Studio 2005 Standard edition, which is not free by any means. And as for distribution, some carriers can prevent unsigned third-party apps from running on their network. The cost of signing an app is pretty high (several hundred dollars.) Pocket PC development used to be free, but Windows Mobile development is anything but.

I use t-mobile and ...

[josepha48]

.. thanks. now I am going to start looking at a new provider...

Care to Speculate?

[umbrellasd]

Sure, I'll speculate my foot up T-Mobile's monopolistic ass. How's my speculation now?

Re:Care to Speculate?

[SeaFox]

How is T-Mobile "monopolistic"? They are the smallest of the four major US carriers. And the smaller of the two GSM carriers. They don't hold a majority position in the market no matter how you slice it, let alone a share that would be considered a monopoly.

Thanks

[twostar]

Now if I had known that two weeks ago I wouldn't have signed up for another 2 years. Thanks a lot. Really, that's just awesome. Explains why I've been getting a run around from tech support. It took three emails to get them to understand I wasn't talking about blocked ports but their stupid firmware java/network access restrictions.

Re:Thanks

[RobertLTux]

you do know that you should be inside the "i was drunk/ stoned/ and ive changed my mind oh heres the new phone back" period or you claim breach of contract

Re:Thanks

[dada21]

This is FUD. T-Mobile branded phones NEVER supported Google Maps or Gmail for Mobile. Just buy a non-T-Mobile branded phone (unlocked of course) and all the apps work fine.

I have an HTC Trinity P3600 and I use GOogle Maps (with GPS!), Gmail for Mobile, and Skype and it works flawlessly.

Slashdot editors don't understand the difference between a T-Mobile branded phone and a real unencumbered phone.

Re:Thanks

[amRadioHed]

Up until last week Google maps and Gmail both worked on my T-Mobile branded phone. Now they don't. No FUD, they really didn't just start blocking this stuff.

Re:Thanks

[Aladrin]

Yup, same here. k800i, and it all worked before. Now it just says 'connecting' and sits there. I just finished submitting my cancel request for the data services.

I share a plan with my mother, father and sister, and my mother just re-upped for 2 years to get free phones. (Mom and Sis are murder on phones.) If they hadn't, we'd be changing rather quickly. MetroPCS has unlimited minutes... Very tempting.

I wanna run botware!

[EmbeddedJanitor]

ISPs (or phone companies) have ligitimate reasons to be concerned about what you run.

A misbehaving application can cause a computer to cause endless crap on a network and similarly a misbehaving application on a mobile phone can cause a lot of problems on a phone network. However, a misbehaving phone can be far more damaging than a misbehaving network device.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap. The most a mis-behaving java app can do is sending or receiving data without stopping. The only winner here is the network charging for every byte. It's not like you can mount a DoS attack from a terminal connected through a 9.6 Kbit link.

The real reason is the telco locking users into their own services. Nothing new...

Re:I wanna run botware!

[jc42]

SPs (or phone companies) have ligitimate reasons to be concerned about what you run.

No; they have illegitimate reasons. We should have an inalienable right to communicate as we wish, by whatever means we wish. Corporate control of our communication is a guaranteed disaster for everyone but the owners of the corporation.

In particular, the main design goal of the Internet was to end the traditional stranglehold of equipment suppliers and comm companies over communication. Look up the early docs of the ARPAnet; its primary design goal was to make it possible for any piece of equipment from any vendor to communicate with any other piece of equipment from any other vendor. The vendors had always blocked such universal communication, and the US's Dept of Defense was fed up with it. The companies that supply the equipment still put any roadblocks they can in the way of communicating with their competitors' equipment. The phone companies are especially good at this, at least here in the US.

It's true that this is very easy to understand why the companies would be concerned with what we run on our machines. But this concern is not in any reasonable sense legitimate. It's the worst possible way you could run a comm system. We should continue to fight it any way we can.

The only legitimate restrictions should be that malformed packets may be dropped, and "bandwidth hogs" may be throttled to a reasonable speed limit (i.e., whatever speed they've paid for). But note that such restrictions have little if anything to do with what software you or I may be running. Or with the content of our data packets, for that matter.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[KDR_11k]

We should have an inalienable right to communicate as we wish, by whatever means we wish.

No because then you couldn't stop people e.g. using megaphones to talk with their friends three blocks down or burning loads of stuff to make smoke signal while covering the neighbourhood in smoke.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[Anonymous Coward]

the main design goal of the Internet was to end the traditional stranglehold of equipment suppliers and comm companies over communication.

whoa! You need to read up on the history of the Internet... seriously

Re:I wanna run botware!

[jc42]

Hey, when I was a kid a bunch of us experimented with smoke signals. It was fun, and I don't actually remember any adults giving us a hard time about it. We were even "playing with fire", but it was obvious that we were doing it in a safe (if rather smokey) way.

It didn't have a very good bit rate, though.

I've read the RFC that describes the Avian Carrier Protocol. I wonder if anyone has designed a smoke-signal protocol for the Internet?

It might be fun to consider using a cell phone with a camera, plus some image-recognition software, to detect the smoke signal from a distance and convert it to electronic bits. But I suppose the phone companies would prevent us from doing it. Some companies are just no fun at all.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Corporate control of our communication is a guaranteed disaster for everyone but the owners of the corporation.

I wonder who owns that cell tower over there. The people?

Oh, and remember that time the masses organized and laid copper wire throughout the country?

And, lest I forget, there's UPS - the Union of Proletariat Service. One good citizen hands the package to the next good citizen until it arrives at the destination.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[amide_one]

> We should have an inalienable right to communicate as we wish, by whatever means we wish.

Okay, sure, whatever. This doesn't mean that you can go to T-Mobile (or Cingular or Verizon or anyone else) and *demand* that they respect your "inalienable right to communicate" by supplying you with every possible means of doing so.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[kmweber]

Wrong.

There is a contract between you and your provider. Either side may legitimately require whatever terms it wishes of the other, because the other party is always free to refuse the deal if he does not like it.

Grow up.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[yuna49]

ISPs (or phone companies) have ligitimate (sic) reasons to be concerned about what you run. A misbehaving application can cause a computer to cause endless crap on a network

Funny how most of the large ISPs don't seem to give a damn about all those customers with compromised computers sending out thousands of spams and trying to break into my firewall every day. The fact is that ISPs don't seem to care what you're doing unless it might affect their ability to oversell capacity. Then they'll suddenly discover the need for usage caps, etc.

For the first half-dozen years that cable companies sold Internet service they never offered their customers even a cheapo firewall router to protect both the network from the customers and vice versa. They'd just happily connect your Windows PC directly onto the Internet without any firewalling and leave it to be hammered day and night. This negligence brought us years of malware and spam that we'll all be coping with for years to come.

Re:I wanna run botware!

[chris.evans]

-We should have an inalienable right to communicate as we wish, by whatever means we wish. soo, if I send text messages via mose code using my farts, than that would be acceptable?

Re:I wanna run botware!

[clambar]

Friend, I've had some luck with VCOM's Fix it. There's a great one button "fix my computer" application that fixes the XP Pro registry, despams, dephishes, deviruses, defrags, in a word deconcatinates my system back to full working order. When I have a really serious problem, I use "restore" to get an earlier version of the registry that has not been corrupted. I back up my Palm 700p via usb to my pc. "Tea, Earl Grey, unsweetened", if you please.

iPhone

[Trojan35]

And you wonder why Apple went with Cingular instead of T-Mobile. The difference between the two? Apple locks you into non-crappy apps.

Re:iPhone

[sqlrob]

As of now, the iPhone is vaporware. Can't call the apps non-crappy until it ships.

Re:iPhone

[mschuyler]

If it's vaporware you could call them farty, though.

What in North America?

[tepples]

One of the reason I'm on T-mobile is because I can use my own unlocked GSM phone on their network. As long as that is still true, I really don't care. I don't even think I've ever owned a T-mobile branded phone (all my phones have been unlocked gsm phones I picked up when I was in Europe). What should people in North America who never get the chance to travel to Europe do? Do the GSM phone manufacturers sell unlocked phones directly to residential end users in North America through mail order?

Re:What in North America?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try these:

http://www.importgsm.com/home.php and http://www.ebay.com/ (search for 'unlocked gsm' or whatever phone you're looking for.)

Buy the cheapest phone available from cingular or T-mobile, then transfer the SIM card to your new unlocked phone. Done.

Re:What in North America?

[tmarthal]

Its called the internets. Places like newegg and tigerdirect sell unlocked GSM phones (as well as a host of other non-recommended sites). I bought an L7 SLVR from newegg a few months ago and it has been awesome. I had to look online how to configure my picture message server to send/receive picture messages and get online, which I would assume that you have to do anytime you get an unlocked/unconfigured phone. Other than the initial configuration, it's been flawless.

Re:What in North America?

[jslater25]

I bought my GSM phone (Motorola v620) from eBay, then flashed and flexed it to my liking. I even modded it so my name appears on the outside LCD.

So many different companies offer unlocking, you shouldn't have any problem getting an unbranded phone or a phone unlocked.

Europe has phones that are much cooler then what's offered in the States.

Re:What in North America?

[Robert1]

You can easily unlock your current T-mobile phone. I did this before traveling to Europe, and it allowed me to just buy 3rd party sim-chips and use my phone in any country I wanted. Since it was prepaid, I didn't get screwed at the end of the month when I came back to the states.

From what I've seen T-mobile is the most accommodating of the phone companies. I've haven't heard of anyone else offering to unlock phones just by requesting them to.

Re:What in North America?

[b0s0z0ku]

I've haven't heard of anyone else offering to unlock phones just by requesting them to.

Actually, once your contract finishes and you move to a month-to-month plan, the phone is legally yours. If you request it, the carrier is legally obligated to give you an unlock code.

-b.

Re:What in North America?

[randolph]

And all the phones on that page are $350 and up--that's Apple's price for an 80 GB iPod. I suppose the cell carriers have deals with the manufacturers to keep the US prices high.

Re:What in North America?

[Experiment 626]

Actually, once your contract finishes and you move to a month-to-month plan, the phone is legally yours. If you request it, the carrier is legally obligated to give you an unlock code.

Anyone have a source for this? It's intriguing, but I'd like something more authoritative than "unlock my phone please, some guy on the Internet named b0s0z0ku said you have to."

Per Wikipedia, it sounds like an argument has been made that this is customers' right, but nothing explicitly says networks have to do it:

...most network operators are reluctant to release these codes, since doing so is of no benefit to them. A few networks make these codes available, but often at high prices meant to deter customers. It would be beneficial if these codes were made available, for free, to legal owners of these phones. U.S. law provides protection for the consumer. Once the contract between the consumer and the mobile service operator has been fulfilled, whereas the consumer receives a discount for a cellular phone while signing up for a specified duration of service. Once the term of service has been completed, the consumer owns the cellular phone and all rights to it. It may constitute fraud if a cellular network provider does not willingly, and free of charge, provide any and all "codes" which "unlock" the cellular phones of all consumers who have fulfilled their service contract.

Re:What in North America?

[surprise_audit]

Supposedly not true of Siemens phones. At least, not the T-Mobile Siemens phone my daughter had. Couldn't get that one unlocked by T-Mobile *or* by the local cell phone repair company, and *they* claim they can unlock any damn thing. The guy took one look and said "nope, can't unlock that" without even touching it... Some joker on eBay claims to be able to do it for some $$ but we're not that desperate yet.

I have T-Mobile and a Blackberry 7290...

[SnappyCrunch]

...and as of right now, Google Maps still works.

Re:I have T-Mobile and a Blackberry 7290...

[cortense]

I have a BlackBerry 7105t with T-Mobile (branded, and not unlocked or patched). I haven't been able to get OperaMini to work (ever), but GMail and GoogleMaps still work fine for me...

Re:I have T-Mobile and a Blackberry 7290...

[zoid.com]

7100 gmail, opera and google maps still work.

Re:I have T-Mobile and a Blackberry 7290...

[gavriel407]

Well, of course your Blackberry still works! All web traffic from a Blackberry will either pass through Research In Motion's network, or additionally through the internet connection of your employer (if they have Blackberry Enterprise Server with MDS installed). On top of data compression, routing all traffic through their network lowers the risk of policy changes (such as this one) affecting RIM's bottom line.

Re:I have T-Mobile and a Blackberry 7290...

[saschasegan]

Right. This policy affects the firmware of a growing number of new, branded, locked, T-Mobile feature phones. Smart phones, including Blackberries, are not affected.

Re: I have T-Mobile and a Blackberry 7290...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a BlackBerry 7105t with T-Mobile (branded, and not unlocked or patched). I haven't been able to get OperaMini to work (ever), but GMail and GoogleMaps still work fine for me...

I'm no BB guru by any definition but, just out of curiosity, have you:

1. upgraded to the latest OS? It looks like you can get it here. It's for Nextel, so don't forget to delete the vendor.xml or you won't be able to install on your T-Mobile BB.
2. set your APN (Settings -> Advanced -> TCP) to "wap.voicestream.com" (assuming you're a US T-Mobile customer)?
3. hard-reset (battery pull) your phone after setting the APN?

Opera mini should then work after running the "Network Setup" under its settings menu.

And maybe that's just the nature of mobile comms

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Maybe a single buggy application on their phones can take down their entire West Coast network,

Speaking as someone who used to do QA for mobile radio networks: yes, it is entirely possible that a single rogue application (running on thousands of handsets) can take out your data network. Bandwidth is not infinite, as those who've tried making a call or sending a text message at 12:01am on 1 January in the middle of a park with 100,000+ people in it can tell you.

My reaction, from the Engineering Dept "we clear up the mess" school of thought, was yes, they probably will upset a tiny number of customers doing this. And they really won't care at all, because one rogue app taking out their entire network for four hours while the on-call guys work out what caused the spike in traffic will upset a much greater fraction of their customers.

They will probably also kick people who unlock hardware and violate this rule summarily and/or sue someone who violates it and does serious damage, sooner or later, and frankly I won't have any sympathy for those people when it happens. As long as they're up-front about it, you're welcome to use another service instead, and use the non-standard apps in exchange for risking a loss of connectivity now and then.

Skype already works

[grahamsz]

I have Skype on my T-Mobile dash.

It works OK on an EDGE data connection but the call has pretty high latency (feels like a satelite connection). Works like a charm on Wifi though - it's just really confusing having a phone application running on your phone.

Re:Skype already works

[Anonymous Coward]

Skype, Google maps, Gmail - all work on my Dash too. And I DON'T have a data plan. I use WiFi when I need these services. Sure it's not available EVERYWHERE but it is nice to have.

Sprint has a nice loophole...

[Afecks]

I hope no one from Sprint is paying attention but using a PPC-6700 on a plan with unlimited data access but no extra "modem tethering" plan it's still possible to use your phone as a dial-up modem. This frees you up to use your laptop on the internet anywhere in their coverage area without an extra card or extra cost. Nothing beats a full size browser with Javascript. Verizon sells the same phone as the VX6700 but from what I hear they had a firmware update that "fixed" it.

Re:Sprint has a nice loophole...

[cascino]

That's possible on any Sprint PCS Vision phone, using the *777 (PPP) code and a USB adapter. It's THE reason why I'm still with Sprint.

Re:Sprint has a nice loophole...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://tmobileusotw.wdsglobal.com/phonefirst

Loophole?? T-Mobile lets you know which phones work, with which laptops, with which bluetooth adapter, and gives you exact instructions on how to set up your phone as a laptop modem. I literally just did this for a customer today. As you can tell I work for T-Mobile, and this is a big load of bullshit. I had a customer come in a couple days ago with a RAZR V3T with Opera/GoogleMail/GoogleMaps, and they were working perfectly. There is no internal announcement about this, which I assure there would be.

As Im sure sure most /.ers know, dont believe everything you read on the internet.

I'm certainly pissed

[amRadioHed]

I just switched from Verizon to T-Mobile three weeks ago to get away from bullshit like this. Fuck them. I though they were supposed to be the US carrier that sucked the least, now who can you go to?

Re:I'm certainly pissed

[AndrewNeo]

Well, if you're under contract, you can probably break it with this change.

I have T-Mobile and a Sidekick 3

[TrashGUY]

All the apps i got or made with my dev key work still too. Then again I believe the danger phone operate different since I have no exp with any other smart device.

Re:I have T-Mobile and a Sidekick 3

[jordan314]

This would really suck if it's true. So far it's not. I have a nokia 6800 and opera mini still works great. I used to pay $19.99/mo to have 'total internet' so I could run third party apps. However half of them wouldn't run anyway (due to java incompatibilities on my old phone). So I downgraded to $4.99/mo T-zones, but to my delight I discovered apps like Opera mini still worked even though the plan is for "web and email". One of my great joys on this phone (besides getting fark and news of the weird streams when I'm bored) is going to getjar.com to get 3rd party java apps that work on my phone. As impressive as the iphone is, I'm not going to buy one until it's cracked to run homebrew apps. I'd be horrified if opera mini stopped working for me, but so far it hasn't.

Was this question necessary?

[RESPAWN]

Would anyone care to speculate if this move is likely to retain or repel customers? Was that question at the end of the submission really necessary? I mean, this is /. Unless you're new here, you already know that /.'ers steadfastly approve of being able to run third party apps on their phones and will spur any carrier who states otherwise.

So... I guess this means that T-Mobile is on the /. blacklist, too...

It's the question of our time

[UncleCrappy]

We've been going through this for years. Balance security and freedom. And security is always heavier on the scale. Now, it's not just politicians and diplomats trying to scare us, it's the people we buy stuff from. If you don't like it, switch to a new provider. At least in the marketplace you can make your vote count with your dollar, while at the polls, youcan't be sure if your vote is counted at all.

Misinformation

[0xdeadbeef]

Sascha Segan (author): "Tony, I maybe didn't make clear enough that this is a feature phone problem. No carrier, not even Verizon, dares forbid application installation on smartphones such as Blackberries, Windows Mobile phones, or Treos."

Um, this isn't quite the sky is falling scenario he makes it out to be in the article. Of course, any bad publicity it generates is still a good thing.

This makes no sense

[jonwil]

I am guessing T-Mobile charges the same high per-kilobyte or per-megabyte GPRS/EDGE/etc data charges as Telstra here in australia do. Assuming that to be the case, wouldn't they WANT people to use the mobile internet as much as possible being that more use = more data downloaded = more money for T-Mobile.

Although given some of the crap I have seen from US Cell carriers, I am not surprised.

If you are unlucky enough to be stuck with a crippled phone, just find a firmware hack to unlock the missing features (if its a motorola phone, you should be able to find a SEEM/menu file/filesystem/whatever hack that will enable the missing functionality without the need to reflash the firmware at all)

Re:This makes no sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. $20/mo gets you unlimited data.

Flash the firmware?

[Klinky]

I dunno, but it seems this is only an issue on T-Mobile branded phones. I have a Motorola V360 which never worked with Opera Mini with the stock firmware. Once I flashed it over to a different firmware it allowed Opera acess to the network. I don't see how they can actively block 3rd party apps, but allow the built in WAP browsers(atleast on a network level, firmware they can, but you can flash the firmware).

Hmmmm.....

[boxxa]

Strange. So much for having 3rd party developers support their phones and produce programs and apps that make customers want to buy their phones and data plans.

Personally, I will never buy another Get It Now enabled Verizon phone. Its expensive. The programs suck.

Ever since I got my Treo and can put my own custom Palm apps on it, the service has been so much better and I have even upgraded to the data plan to use these apps.

Restriction for New T-Mobile Branded Phones Only!

[paskal]

As usual, the title of a Slashdot post had me panicking while after reading the article, realized there was no need.

I've been using my non-branded W800 on T-Mobile for over a year now, no problems.

How many people who get the free phone with contract you think will care about this? I'd think somewhere between zero and none.

Does anyone know how long this has been the policy with their new phones? I bet it was quite some time ago.

dead spots retained

[wardk]

meanwhile, work on shoring up coverage gaps on major freeways in metropolitan areas has been shelved due to exceedingly low t-mo give-a-shit levels

A little more substantial

[SuperKendall]

I'd say the iPhone is a lot more substantial than vaporware. You don't advertise vaporware during the oscars. We just don't know details yet.

Re:A little more substantial

[sqlrob]

Is it available in stores or mail order, to be shipped when the order is received?

No? It's vapor. Until consumers can do what is shown in the demo and commercials, it remains vapor. Are there prototypes, and is it going to be shipped? Yeah, probably. But until it finally does ship, it remains vapor.

Thanks for the warning!

[argent]

I was thinking of switching from Sprint because of the stupid restrictions on my Nokia phone imposed by Sprint. I had assumed T-Mobile was more likely to be open, because they're using a more open protocol (GSM). I guess not.

Re:Thanks for the warning!

[rufo]

Odd... my dad's Samsung A900M on Sprint lets him install any Java app he wants; he's running Gmail, Google Maps and Opera Mini on there with no problems. I was actually fairly impressed.

Re:Thanks for the warning!

[argent]

I guess I should have gotten a Samsung, but my previous experience led me to Nokia. Guess it's like they say in the ends, "past performance is no guarantee". :p

Re:Restriction for New T-Mobile Branded Phones Onl

[amRadioHed]

It started last Wednesday, at least that's when my gmail and google maps last worked.

This is FUD -- it doesn't affect non-OEM phones

[dada21]

I use an HTC Trinity P3600 and this will NOT affect me. I also tether my laptop to my P3600 (bluetooth or USB) and I will also not be limited.

This is ONLY if you use T-Mobile branded phones. I called my customer retention agent and she confirmed over and over that this will NOT affect third party bought phones, which is the only way to play unless you want to try to buy an outdated phone of T-Mobiles at a discount price.

FUD, FUD, FUD. I love my T-Mobile phone and I travel to 13 states to do business, plus I work in Europe and Asia regularly and my phone works fine there with my T-Mobile SIM (albeit pricey but it works fine).

Re:This is FUD -- it doesn't affect non-OEM phones

[The Evil Couch]

It's not even for only T-Mobile branded phones. I'm using the cousin to your Trinity, the T-Mobile MDA aka the HTC Wizard. I've been using 3rd party apps on it since day one. Even after I upgraded the firmware and OS, I still had absolutely no problem with any of my applications. I had Firefox running on my phone until I got tired of the large storage space footprint it had. I run wmirc as my IRC client daily and use Google Maps at least once a week on my phone. I've installed the current version of Flash for mobiles and the Java runtime environment. Of the handful of Java-apps I've tried running on my phone, I haven't had issues with any of them. I can't say I've tried all the 3rd party apps out there, but I've tried a hell of a lot of them and have absolutely no problems with my phone.

I get the feeling that this is astroturfing from a rival phone company or just a blog entry from someone that doesn't know what they're talking about.

Re:This is FUD -- it doesn't affect non-OEM phones

[saschasegan]

It affects a growing number of new T-Mobile branded feature phones. It started with Samsung phones such as the T809, T509 and T519, and has spread to many Motorola and Nokia phones, including the T-Mobile branded 5300 and 6133. It does not affect, and will not affect, smart phones such as the Windows Mobile MDA.

I make this clear in my original blog post, but of course, I didn't write the Slashdot post.

One of two reasons I'm not longer with T-Mobile

[mdboyd]

I had a Tmobile/Danger Sidekick II. I loved the thing but they locked it down like crazy. You couldn't transfer your own ringtones or even attempt to install your own applications. Instead, you had to purchase any and all applications and ringtones from the "Download Catalog." The device was great except for that huge setback. That and the fact that T-Mobile gets terrible service around here. At least with the phone I have now I can actually use the hardware that I purchased.

Cell networks are stuck in the 20th century

[troll -1]

Perhaps the problem with cell phone networks in general is that they were designed in a closed environment with a need for profit.

Compare cell phone networks to the Internet which was designed mostly by scientists and engineers in an academic, peer reviewed environment with the simple goal of building an efficient network.

If the Internet had been designed phone companies, you'd by your computer from you're ISP and it probably wouldn't work with any other ISP, your ISP bill would list every site you visited that month, overseas sites would be charged at a higher rate, and DNS would probably be sold as a 'white pages' lookup service where they could charge you a penny for every click.

Phone systems are just plain dumb and the people who run them are concerned more with nickel and diming you for every trivial service they can think of than they are in building good network infrastructure.

The FCC is largely to blame for this because they choose to auction off the airways to the highest bidder almost without regard as to how that bidder is going use the medium.

I'm no fan of big government but if we're going to have regulation, then let's do the thing right. Let's require cell phone companies to provide mobile IP addresses and let anybody access their network with the hardware and software of his own choosing. Let the consumer buy *airtime*, nothing more, and let the consumer decide whether he'll use voice, download music, stream video, text message, etc., just like we do with landline companies.

O RLY?

[rit]

Uhm, that's weird.
Seeing as this morning my office gave me a brand new Blackberry 8700G (Edge network, fast processor) and the first thing I did was install Google Maps.

It installed with Zero problems, and it runs great.

So... what's this about banning third party apps?

Re:O RLY?

[glassesmonkey]

Sure, you must speak for everyone, this must all be fiction.

First of all, this is block on a per SIM and/or port basis. Secondly, you might have full data plan instead of just the $5.99 data. And lastly, it appears that everyone who previously HAD your experience just randomly can no longer connect as of a few days or a week ago. And obviously this is going to be on a region by region basis as they start throwing switches on ports your java / apps can access.

So, I dare you to go download Opera mini or the one for your Blackberry.. and see how long you can use it and google maps. Enjoy T-Mobile tech support. O BTW, call them and ask them if you are allowed to use Google Maps on your plan.

Re:O RLY?

[the_wishbone]

YA RLY! This applies to T-Zones, not Blackberry plans, smart guy. Completely different plans. It's meant for feature phones, not Smartphones. At least read some comments before trying to be a smartass: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=22428 0&cid=18162324.

Who owns the phone?

[fishbowl]

Who owns the phone? The customer or T-Mobile?

Re:Who owns the phone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you bought it from T-Mobile with a contract extension, until that contract is played out, technically they do.

Also, the question is "Who owns the network?" I'm sure you can still install these apps, they just don't work. And who owns the network is T-Mobile.

Repel?! Maybe. Discontinue Service?! Most Likely.

[k1mus4b1]

I am a T-Mobile customer who is somewhat addicted to using third party apps. The main one I think would be my Gmail app, which I use to almost religiously check my e-mail when not near a console. Other apps I use include Google Maps and whatnot, but truthfully they are just there for kicks. If I currently didn't have T-Mobile, I don't think the idea that not being able to use third party apps would repel me. In fact I might even think that their service is more secure, but thats where the line ends. As it stands, I am currently a T-Mobile user, and I haven't had a single problem, security related, with any of my third party apps. Switching services is running thru my mind, and pending a phone call to tech-support requesting support for third party, I doubt I will keep the service. rollover minutes here i come...

repel or indifferent

[metroplex]

I think this move will repel those with an even slight knowledge of mobile apps, but the majority of customers just won't care. Out of all the people I know, those who use the web capabilities of their portable phone are surprisingly few. No one I know has opera mini installed, let alone caring which apps can be installed and which cannot.

Technologically less educated people in those case just believe the salesperson and assume it is "not compatible" with certains apps (which it is, but on purpose), but buy it anyway because it looks shiny or has a 3 megapixel camera.

Works with Alltel too

[Sycraft-fu]

$40/month for unlimited data, on top of your normal voice plan (so talking about $70-80/month total with a reasonable amount of minutes). However the phone itself (PPC6700) will run any app that works on Windows mobile and it works as a modem. Vista recognises it as a modem as soon as you plug it in (XP needs drivers). Had the plan for a while on work's dollar but I really didn't make enough use of it to justify it.

Also should be noted you don't have to pay for ringtones, wall paper and such with the 6700 and you just hook it up via ActiveSync and add what you want to add. Of course Alltel has a little store on the phone to sell you that crap if you want it, but the phone itself will take anything you care to feed it.

Has WiFi too, that is separate from any data package, but it hits the battery too hard to be much of a realistic option for anything but short term use.

Thanks, Steve Jobs!!!!`

[lord_mike]

I guess when you showed tMobile your non-user-programmable iPhone and boasted how users would be totally screwed, they thought that idea was a real winner! Now, tMobile is taking your brain-dead lock-down, lock-in philosophy to their entire line of phones! 'Cos if anyone knows about screwing over consumers, it is apple and the Cell Phone companies!

Makes you wish that the other Steve would have been the one running Apple.

Thanks,

Mike

Re:Thanks, Steve Jobs!!!!`

[INeededALogin]

you are an idiot if you think these type of decisions are made over-night and that Steve Jobs had anything to do with it. If anything, T-Mobile had set the precedent for Steve.

jonwil makes no sense

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guessing

Because you're too busy racing to post inanities instead of looking up the numbers for yourself? It's not like this is s'posed to be a website for tech-savvy folks, and phone carriers sites & their rates are sooooo hard to find (hint: t-mobile.com).

Welcome to the In-tard-web, where every jackass without a clue or fact but with an opinion is eager to share it.

This wasn't a troll or a flame, it was an anti-troll, based on the premise that a public spanking might inspire some more signal over this bozo's nothing-but-noise.

Plan

[Shaltenn]

1) Get customer to sign pretty 2-year access plan. 2) Revoke rights of customer (as allowed in contract of 2-year access plan). 3) Customer cancels 2-year access plan, pays the cancellation fee, etc. 4) Profit!

or not

[hogfat]

It's quite interesting that I've been using gmail and google maps on a T-Mobile branded v360 since before this article was written. Hell, I'll even tether it to the laptop for an internet connection if I'm really bored . . .

Status Quo

[The Nipponese]

Does the average consumer really care? People don't use T-Mobile because they like cutting edge phone apps or Catherine Zeta-Jones. They use it because it's cheap, and it's not (insert lowest-of-the-low carrier name here. Around here, it's MetroPCS).

Is T-Mobile making buisness in the US?

[TransEurope]

I'm just wondering about ./'s interest in a local german Mobile Phone Comapany.
I mean, we are talking about the company with the ugly corporate color http://www.tmobile.de/ , isn't it?

Re:Is T-Mobile making buisness in the US?

[mertaman]

They are in the US too. They are the fourth largest carrier here. See http://www.t-mobile.com/

Re:maybe their network/OS sucks like iPhone/Cingul

[yellowalienbaby]

I think thats essentially it. Security. For the people? Now thats a different story..

End users

[architimmy]

I think as long as end users remain by and large ingnorant of the real benefits of third party applications on their cell phones no individual carrier is going to suffer from blocking access to their networks through third party apps. What with even the iphone not allowing for third party development, I seriously doubt we'll see any change in the cell network landscape in the near future. There's just too much money to be made offering second rate products over a closed network to open up and allow competition for all the services they like to charge exorbitant fees for.

Are they blocking application access?

[b0s0z0ku]

Or are their phones just programmed not to allow the running of 3rd party applications? The article seems to imply that phones not bought from T-Mobile will allow running of 3rd-party apps - so it's not a network issue, it's just that the phones that they provide with their plans are locked down tight. Probably hackable. Besides, there are many places where you can buy unlocked GSM phones if you're willing to pay for your phone rather than getting it "free with contract."

Best,
-b.

Re:Are they blocking application access?

[surprise_audit]

My wife recently signed us up with T-Mobile and we got free Motorola RAZRs (with discounts and mail-in rebates). I noticed the RAZR has a mini-usb port just like my camera, so I plugged in the cable to see what my Linux laptop could see. Apparently it looks just like a modem, and the moto4lin package seems to be able to access everything. If I want the space back, I can even throw away all the builtin background images and ringtones that I'll never use. I can certainly download/upload photos - the alternative being to send them as messages at 10 cents a shot. From what I've read about Motorola phones, I should be able to replace the startup/shutdown images too, and not even Motorola Phone Tools will let you do that... :)

One day when I bored and feeling adventurous I might play with the SEEM editor and see what else I can do.

Following Verizon's lead.

[stlthVector]

I thought verizon was the only company arrogant enough to restrict and disable features of their phones. Verizon has been doing this for a long time. I wouldn't have thought tmobile was in the position to do this. I know I will stop suggesting tmobile to people now.

I love my LG CU-500 phone but that's only because of the excellent 3rd party apps I have on it. Whoosh costs me $25 a year but it's a great email client and even lets me read .pdf and .doc attachments! Google Maps and Gmail are also must have 3rd party tools. If you're not using Opera Mini and it works on your phone you're just crazy! I use that to check /., myspace, and facebook anywhere, anytime! Those are all free except Whoosh which I think is cheap and well worth it. If you want a great but less feature rich email client that's free try flurry.

Third party apps make the device for me. So, verizon and tmobile are off my list. I want gsm so sprint/nextel (double wammy for verizon) are off my list no mater what they do with their devices. I just hope cingular doesn't do anything stupid (other than changing their name back to att) so I can stay with them.

Lost Customer

[Quzak]

They just lost my money. Limiting customers is not a way to do business, especially with a programmer.

Why do people put up with this ?

[alphabetsoup]

Everytime I see stories about cellphones on /. I wonder why US customers put with all the crap that the cellular providers throw their way ? As a person outside of USA, it is really hard for me to imagine this. All I have to do to use cellphones is to buy a phone, buy a SIM card from one of the (completely separate) carriers, put it into my phone and use. Paying for talktime is done through prepaid vouchers. There are no contracts, no locking of phones, no restrictions, etc. I can switch carriers whenever I like, use whatever applications I like on my phone.

Surely there are carriers in USA who allow the use of unlocked phones without contracts ? If yes, why doesn't everybody those ? Or is there a side of the story that is not truly reflected via the comments on slashdot ?

Re:Why do people put up with this ?

[EboMike]

Well, what do you suggest we should do? Boycott them? It's not like 95% of the people care, they just want cool phones to talk and send text messages. Even if you were to successfully boycott a company, who would you switch to? You might think that T-Mobile, being a European company, adheres to European "standards". But why would they? They'd shoot themselves in their own feet since they risk losing revenue.

Once 95% of the population use PDA phones and make use of OBEX and installs an assload of downloaded applications on their phones, THEN it might make a difference if one carrier didn't fuckify their phones.

Re:Why do people put up with this ?

[randolph]

I wish I knew. The cell industry, overall, has a 40% customer dissatisfaction rate. Verizon is the best, I believe--they're only at 20% Think about that. It's not just geeks--it's nearly half of all cell users, and even for the company with the happiest customers, it's still 1 in 5.

Re:Why do people put up with this ?

[surprise_audit]

The overwhelming majority of US cell phone users have no clue that it's different in Europe. Why would they?? It'll probably never make the news because it's not exactly sensational, is it?? You can buy a phone at any number of consumer electronics stores if you want to, then get a plan with one of the carriers. That phone will be unlocked, and the purchaser won't know it. I'd venture to guess that for most people, getting a cell phone follows on from seeing an ad on TV that advertises "Free Phone!!!" without listing what you *can't* do with it. Or maybe their kid's friend has one, so their kid obviously has to have one from the same carrier "'cos it's *sooo* cool!!!"

Aint this Anti Trust?

[paynesmanor]

If you comprehend anti-trust, T-Mobile should follow suit..

I hate phone companies

[GrouchoMarx]

Seriously, as a current T-Mobile customer, where else am I going to go? I've still got over a year on my 2 year enslavement contract. Even when it's over, where do I go? Cingular? They play nice with the NSA, their customer service is terrible, and their QoS in my area is crap. Verizon? They've been crippling their phones for years. Sprint? Decent data plans, but they're CDMA which means device lock-in by definition. US Cellular? Also CDMA lock-in.

I just want a good GSM carrier in the US that will give me a family plan, a decent data plan, a non-insane lock-in, and half-way decent phones. Or hell, give me decent plans at a good enough price and I'll buy my own damned phones as God intended. Just sell me a SIM card and don't bankrupt me to use it, then stay out of my way. Is that so much to ask?

Re:I hate phone companies

[TheDreadSlashdotterD]

Yes.

Welcome to the "free" market.

Re:I hate phone companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to the FCC regulating communications so much, and to government subsidizing and thus skewing the market, such that there is no real competition anymore. /. is so short-sighted. Get some glasses.

Re:I hate phone companies

[ivan256]

You're so focused on CDMA locking you in that you haven't noticed you're just as locked in with GSM as long as you stay in the US. You're going to be locked in no matter which carrier you pick, so unless you travel outside the country frequently you shouldn't care all that much if it's a GSM phone or CDMA.

I agree that it would be nice to just buy some airtime and use whatever device you'd like, but since it doesn't work that way it's silly to make these distinctions.

Re:I hate phone companies

[TheDreadSlashdotterD]

Thank you for clarifying what I meant by free. So long as there is an appearance of competition, all the cell providers need to do is point at the other companies and say "See, we still have competition" when in reality they are in cahoots.

Does that help?

Rich get richer

[Anonymous Coward]

This is part of the current US economic climate that suports the
rich get richer mentality. Espcecially where technology is concerned.

The real question is how to fight back against it? Is it even possible?
Recent press indicates that even small business government contracts are
being granted to the large businesses who have their own 'posing' spinoffs.

Who is looking out for the little guy?

Re:maybe their network/OS sucks like iPhone/Cingul

[ameoba]

My guess is that the clause is simply in the TOS so that, if a buggy program messes up a user's phone, they can simply say "Sorry, you're no longer covered".

has anyone actually CHECKED the facts here?

[amnotamouse]

I have a blackberry pearl. 6 months old. I JUST downloaded two of the apps they say won't work. They BOTH work fine. I have the blackberry data plan and run these and other internet apps fine. Maybe we need a clarification on what the actual issue IS...

Re:has anyone actually CHECKED the facts here?

[saschasegan]

Right. This affects feature phones, not smart phones such as the Blackberry Pearl.

This isn't new

[gEvil (beta)]

This isn't exactly new. Those of us with T-Mobile branded Samsung phones know that T-Mobile requires any java app that accesses their network to be signed. However, Samsung won't sign anything, meaning no OperaMini, no GoogleMaps, etc. It sucks, but that's what you get for letting "the free hand of the market" decide how things are gonna work...

Re:This isn't new

[gEvil (beta)]

However, Samsung won't sign anything

Grrrr...Too hasty. That should be "T-Mobile won't sign anything"

Well.

[Runefox]

Telus (Canada) already restricts the download of Opera Mini and other third-party apps not readily available from their internal website. I'm pretty sure that there aren't anything better in my area, where Aliant (Bell) and Rogers (no coverage) are the only other competitors. I like Telus, anyway, but I wouldn't mind having Opera Mini, all the same. WAP is just too basic.

To their defense, they charge by the pageview, not by the KB.

It's the VOIP stupid

[popo]

This idiotic policy doesn't even work in T-Mobile's interests. Third party software encourages people to use data services, which encourages them to sign up for data plans, which makes T-Mobile money. A more liberal policy on mobile apps also might help the nation's #4 carrier win customers away from control freaks like Verizon, with their strictly limited set of applications.

The third party software they're afraid of is VOIP software that encourages people to use data services as a replacement for their overpriced phone plans.

(Why are there 160 comments above mine with no mention of this?)

Re:It's the VOIP stupid

[idlemind]

I agree. T-Mobile wants you to pay $19.99/mo. for calls over Wi-Fi. Not sure if this has been launched nationwide yet but they are testing it in Seattle.

works on my tmobile phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Just downloaded operamini... works fine. So does Google's apps, yahoo to go, and many others. I call BullShip on this one.

It is true, check Howardforums...

[Powercntrl]

There's quite a few angry T-Mobile users out there over this. Just because T-Mobile hasn't released an "official" word on the matter doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And yes, I do use T-Mobile and this restriction only just recently became active in the central Florida area. And also yes, I know T-Mobile isn't *just* in the US, but we're talking about T-Mobile's service in the US. So, if it's working for you over in Europe, that isn't very relevent, sorry.

Of course, you can easily prove that the story is true yourself. Ask a friend who lives in the areas where this has already taken effect, has T-Mobile and only pays for the $5.99 plan if he/she can still access anything with Opera Mini. I'll bet you $5.99, he/she can't.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[Reaperducer]

Just tried it (on T-Mobile US) and it works fine. You just lost $5.99. Give me your address so I can come over there and collect.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[Reaperducer]

Howardforums contains two threads related to this. One is just another piece of blogspam with a link to the same blog as the Slashdot submission.

The other is a thread about how T-Zones is now giving people what they pay for. When you signed up with T-Zones you were told web and e-mail. T-Mobile let some other data through in some other markets. Now they're expanding their restrictions in what appears to be an attempt to make all markets the same.

So, T-Mobile enforcing the restrictions you agreed to when you signed up for T-Zones service is the same thing as T-Mobile disallowing third-party apps on cell phones? Not even close.

Sounds like you're mad because you finally got caught and you're trying to make this into something it isn't.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[Powercntrl]

When you signed up with T-Zones you were told web and e-mail.

But nowhere does it say you must use only the browser the phone shipped with. That's the crux of the matter, and T-Mobile has decided to draw the line in the sand with technical means, not clearer contractual terms.

That's pretty sleazy business tactics, if you ask me.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[amRadioHed]

So where is the option for us to upgrade to a service that doesn't block other apps? The $30 internet plan available for smartphone's is given as an option for my Razr. Yeah, the T-Zones service is cheap and I'd gladly pay more some more for a less restrictive plan, but they aren't offering one.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[Anonymous Coward]

Using gmail, on my phone's screen right now:
 
Use data network? URL:https://mail.google.com/mail/m/some numbers.
How is that NOT considered "web?" Ditto for google maps and operamini.

And it's not able to connect, but their crippled browser gets through just fine.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[shawngarringer]

So T-Mobile finally requires you to route traffic through their proxy server on the cheaper plans...

Thats why your apps won't work. If you stick your SIM card in a PDA where you can program the proxy server info in to applications it will work fine. Its the same with iWireless. Pay $20 if you want full internet, or $10 if you want HTML/WAP through a proxy.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[Greyfox]

Hmm that'd explain why I haven't been able to use my web browser on the Nokia E70 I bought here in the USA the past couple of times I used it. I thought it was just the spotty coverage since I only had a couple of bars in the area. I pay for their full data service and it worked great for the first few months I had it. If they changed the terms of that service without telling me, I think we're looking at class action lawsuit time. I'll call them up and demand some answers today. If that's the case I'll be canceling my service with them, even if they have some way to unlock it on my account. I'll be damned if I'm going to do business with a company that treats its customers like that.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[saschasegan]

I feel like I now have to post this same comment 25 times. But hey. Maybe it'll get me a tiny bit of karma.

The plague is affecting a growing number (not all) of new, locked, branded T-Mobile US phones. First it was just Samsung phones. Now it's Nokia phones and some Motorola phones, too. The problem is firmware edits that T-Mobile does before you buy the phone, so if your phone worked before, it will still work - this isn't a network restriction thing, it's a handset firmware thing.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[saschasegan]

I'm not a frequent slashdotter. Should I reply to every post which needs to be corrected? (sigh.)

This is not a network restriction. The apps are blocked on the handset side. You could have the God & The Angels Direct Link $9,000 Super Everything plan and you STILL wouldn't be able to run Opera Mini.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[tchuladdiass]

The $30 plan is for full nat'd internet (only a copule port restrictions_ and t-mobile hotspots. They used to have a seperate internet only plan for $20, but recently combined them into the one $30 plan.
However, you can sign up for the Blackberry data plan (go on the my.t-mobile.com page, and select a blackberry as your phone model). The blackberry plan is $20, and gives the same internet as the old $20 internet-only (no hotspots) plan.

Another option (that I use) is to stick with the $5.99 plan and use my own phone (non-branded Motorola a780). I've got my home system set up with a proxy so that I can use things like google maps without problems. Also, instead of opera mini, this phone has the full arm linux version of opera included.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[shawngarringer]

Only on brand new handsets. Old handsets can still intall programs, but with the $5.99 T-Zones access you cant use them. If you go through their proxy server they'll work fine. Or, if you pay for full internet access.

Maybe you should take the time to read to conversation, brefore you spew your bullshit all over this forum. Thanks.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[schiefaw]

Wrong. The restriction is part of the Java stack on the phone itself. I have the VPN data plan and still could not use 3rd party applications from my new phone. I reverted to my old phone without any change to my account and the apps work fine. If the issue had to do with "T-Zones is now giving people what they pay for" then the restriction would not be phone specific.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[amRadioHed]

Thanks for the tips! I'll look into that.

Re:It is true, check Howardforums...

[Deaths Hand]

Indeed, over here in the UK, I recently got a "free" Nokia 6233 with my contract direct from T-Mobile UK, and it came with Opera Mini 1.2 installed on it already. I've quite happily upgraded to Opera Mini 3 direct from Opera, and put the Gmail app and Google Maps Java app on the phone. Even the Windows Live Search app works okay. All of which is quite handy when I'm only paying £7.50 a month for Web'n'Walk unlimited data.

My Guess?

[/dev/trash]

Two year contract says RETAIN.

Re:My Guess?

[greed]

REmote Technical Assistance Information Network? That's an interesting thing to say on a contract.

And thanks for bringing back the horrid memories of IBM's customer problem tracking system. *gibber*

Upgrade/replace firmware

[Anonymous Coward]

Using Opera Mini with T-Mobile 'web & walk' (flat fee) right now.

Although the phone isn't branded, I couldn't run most Internet apps, like if there was some sort of firewall. I had the firmware upgraded to the latest version by the dealer where I signed up for the plan+phone, and besides getting a few new bugs here and there, one of the things it did fix was full Internet connectivity. Everything from SSH (MidpSSH) to IRC works fine now. Maybe this works for branded phones too. If that doesn't work, take a look at www.davinciteam.com (ofcourse you could do this regardless of wether your firmware works ok, there are neat features in there that makes your phone just wayyy cooler)

Besides, if you pay for unlimited Internet access, then that's what they should deliver, a friendly support lady acknowledged that when I raised concerns about the mysterious blockage.

Re:Upgrade/replace firmware

[Achromatic1978]

Using Opera Mini with T-Mobile 'web & walk' (flat fee) right now.

Besides, if you pay for unlimited Internet access, then that's what they should deliver, a friendly support lady acknowledged that when I raised concerns about the mysterious blockage.

Absolutely you should. However, you didn't. What part of "WEB" and walk did you not understand? So, no, you shouldn't get SSH/IRC access. Guess what? I pay $20 a month for the REAL unlimited Internet access plan with T-mobile, and I do. Without fucking with firmware.

Don't like their rules/games....

[Anonymous Coward]

...then stop buying locked/crippled phones. As the article correctly points out, consumers have a choice. Nobody forces them to buy subsidized phones.

Some *much needed* INFO:

[Powercntrl]

First of all, yes, some T-Mobile branded phones had their firmware modified by T-Mobile to prevent third party applications from accessing T-Mobile's data network. This has been going on for awhile, and really isn't news.

What T-Mobile has done recently, is a slow regional rollout of port blocking. You see, T-Mobile offers a $5.99 WAP access add-on, and a far more expensive "full internet access" add-on. What is happening is that people who bought unlocked/unbranded phones without T-Mobile's silly restrictions are finding that T-Mobile's $5.99 WAP plan just won't work any more for 3rd party apps which need unrestricted access to the Internet. The restrictions stopped just being in T-Mobile's phones. Now, as Verizon is so fond of saying, "It's the network."

There's quite a few threads about this started over at HowardForums, and it is very real. If you think you're sitting pretty because it hasn't happened to you yet, you've been warned. The only way you're safe is if you're already on one of T-Mobile's "full internet" plans (Blackberry, Sidekick, Phone-as-Modem, etc.).

Re:Some *much needed* INFO:

[saschasegan]

Thanks, Powercntrl. As I've been trying to emphasize, my blog post was just about the firmware edits. The news is that they're spreading, and that it now seems to be a blanket policy affecting many manufacturers of T-Mobile branded phones.

The port blocking issue is a different one, but also annoying.

Digg anyone?

[Mongoose]

This whole week has had a ton of unverified, crap posts. Is slashot becoming another mob-minded digg? If it's posted on some guy's blog it must be true!

Dear blog,
Slashdot.org is becoming just like Digg. I expect this to be front page in about 5mins.

Labeled Inaccurate

[webgeek2point0]

I have a few bones to pick about this article. 1. It was published on January 30, so not really news. 2. He says T-Mobile's slogan is "Get More". It hasn't been Get More for months. It is "Stick Together". 3. I have T-Mobile service and Google Maps. I have not had any problems with Google Maps. In fact I used it again today. 4. FTA: "instead of buying phones through T-Mobile, go direct to manufacturers or through independent retailers that offer non-T-Mobile-branded GSM phones". How does this help? How is an unbranded phone going to allow you to have network access and allow Google Maps to work? Please tell! 5. This author sounds like one of the many ignorant customers that has no idea what he is talking about. He probably expected T-Mobile tech support to troubleshoot all 3rd party applications, which of course is not going to happen.

Story == Bullshit

[schlick]

I have T-Mobile in the CA, bay area with the $29/month data plan. It still works fine. This story is complete BS, the whole reason for buying a smartphone is applications. Just because 3rd party apps don't work with a particular service plan doesn't mean T-Mobile is "banning" 3rd party apps. Who the fuck let the trolls start posting stories?

Already the case in the UK

[lightversusdark]

I've been with T-Mobile UK for about 3 years on a voice + BlackBerry plan.

The plan itself is(was?) basically the best contract for data in the UK. No-one offers an unlimited data plan, as seem to be readily available everywhere else. All that's on offer in the UK is 'fair-use' limits, past which the provider may (at their discretion) levy a charge of £1.50-£5.00/MB. All the network operators in the UK set their fair-use limit at 5MB (the last time I renewed my contract, this time last year, this was still the case), except for T-Mobile, who set it at 50MB. This sole fact was the deal-decider in my case.

I initially had a BlackBerry 7230, but I couldn't do anything useful with it (this was pre BlackBerry OS 4) - not even Over The Air installs until I upgraded the handset firmware. The first time I took it to the US however, it was like having a new device - I was even able to tether it to my Windows laptop as a USB modem. I realised then that the functionality of my device was seriously limited on my 'home' territory network.

When I upgraded my contract, I also got a handset upgrade from the 7230 to an 8700g, and the first thing I wanted to do was install Opera Mini.

One thing to note is that there are two BlackBerry browser applications. One is an 'enterprise' browser, and the other is intended to be branded by the network operator. On a consumer tariff (i.e. without a BES contract ), you cannot access the enterprise browser at all, and can only use the branded browser. This is also the case on BlackBerry on the O2 network that I have seen. I don't know if the two browsers share the same code-base, but the lesser functionality of the branded browser is well documented. I have never seen the ability to change the homepage (typically your network providers portal selling ringtones etc.), and on my old 7230, the menu option to switch the browser out of WAP to HTML was locked unless you blindly entered an arcane 'cheat-code' on the correct page.
It must be said that the browser on the 8700 is considerably better, supporting JavaScript and CSS out of the box, but it is still a pick'n'mix of standards support. Also considering the download limits, Opera Mini with its pre-compression of pages looked like a good bet, and I downloaded it and it ran very nicely for a month or two until it notified me of a new update.
Attempting to upgrade Opera Mini failed. It appeared to install, but would fail to connect to the network. I restored the BlackBerry from a backup, and then uninstalled the old (beta?) Opera Mini before attempting a clean install. Same problem. I tried it a bunch of ways over the course of a week, and even managed once or twice to speak to some T-Mobile support staff with half a clue, but eventually I gave up on it (under advisement: one quote was literally "Give up, it's not going to work.")

Undeterred I next tried to install Google Maps for BlackBerry. This installed cleanly, and provided useful feedback. On first launch, the BlackBerry firewall prompts appeared as expected, and once permitted, it would begin to negotiate a connection. However, Google Maps grabs some of its data over HTTPS. No go. Back on the phone to T-Mobile, it took me two days to get a clear confirmation from someone that knew what they were talking about: "No secure connections allowed".

I gave up trying to extend the functionality of my handset at this point, and resigned myself to treating the BlackBerry as a black box. Not to detract from the device, I wouldn't change to a handset running anything apart from BlackBerry OS, it is unmatched in the marketplace and does what it does very well - these restrictions are imposed by the network operator.

The next time I was in the US, I noticed that I was on an EDGE network. Althought the 8700g is EDGE capable, there are no EDGE networks in the UK, and so I had previously only had GPRS(or even GSM only in some remote parts of Scotland and Wales). Fired up the still installed Opera Mini and Google Maps - worked like a charm, and speed

That's not true!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't care about the flashy commercials and cheap phones, I buy whatever Catherine Zeta-Jones Tells me to buy.

She's Hot, and I figure I'll have a chance with her, If I buy what she's selling!

This smells wrong...

[rickb928]

... 'cause I'm past my contract (which feels soooo good, being free to jump if I wanna) and I'm not seeing any restraints yet.

I and my wife use Blackberry 7105t's, with Unlimited data plans. I use Google Maps, Opera Mini and an SSH midlet. Yeah. running scripts, restarting services, even rebooting my Fedora box 1800 miles away on my phone. My cubicle mate thinks I'm wierd, but HE's trying to get through to Customer Service to get his mySQL tables reloaded on his hosted server while I'm writing another Spamassassin rule to foil the spammers a little more. But I have no problems using whatever I want so far. In Phoenix, as of today, the network is fine. No restrictions. SO far.

T-Mobile hasn't posted or sent to me new TOS or contract terms. At least today, I'm not affected.

Of course, I'll be asking the Blackberry group to unlock our phones. They're past warranty, past contract, and free agents. And I don't really see anything else I want except for some Sony Ericssons that I can't get from a carrier in the US, so it's time for me to finish my app and get a freebie from them. If I'm incredibly lucky.

Still, this article sounds a little like a false alarm for me. Maybe some phones they want to cripple. I sure understand that. I used a Siemens S46 for a year and a half. You think you got problems? Bahahahahaha!

-Rick

Re:maybe their network/OS sucks like iPhone/Cingul

[Junior J. Junior III]

I'm not sure what to make of Job's comments about the apparent fragility of networks. On the one hand, I think it'd be very strange indeed for them to admit the network is that fragile, especially if it really is.

My guess is that the network isn't really that fragile, but that a rogue application that hogs bandwidth (think Bittorrent over EDGE or the Melissa virus) could conceivably degrade service to the point where QoS for live voice conversations would be impaired, which isn't quite the same as a total outage, but might as well be for people who just want to talk on the phone.

Alternatively, the availability of applications that make free use of the network for services that they want to charge you ridiculous prices for ($0.10/sms or pay for downloading ringtones or to send photos that you take with the phone) just scares them too much and they want to soak the customer for every last nickle and dime they can squeeze out.

The loophole doesn't work with every phone

[Solandri]

It's possible to use any Sprint Vision-enabled phone as a modem. However, the new ones are specifically made in a way so Sprint can tell when they're being used as a modem. If you use them that way excessively, Sprint may require you to switch to a full-blown data plan.

All of the EVDO (3G) capable Sprint phones (sold as "Power Vision capable") will distinguish modem use except the PPC6700, the Sanyo MM-9000, and I believe the Samsung a900. With these phones, Sprint has no way of telling if you're using it as a modem or if you're using the built-in browser. The latter two were pulled from the market for this reason.

Re:The loophole doesn't work with every phone

[CompMD]

This is not always true. I have a PPC6700 and a basic Power Vision plan, and Sprint definitely knows when I'm using it as a modem. Every time I connect, it works great for about 45 seconds and then the connection drops. I called up and was like "WTF, mate?" and Sprint says it is because they can tell what kind of traffic I'm sending and that their system can tell that I'm using the 6700 as a modem, which is not permitted with my plan. When I asked them if that meant they were sniffing my packets they didn't have a good answer.

I told them they could shove the extra $35 per month they wanted to charge me to use it as a modem. Perhaps a firmware change will fix this...

Sounds like a good way to commoditize one's phone

[sauge]

You know.

Make it about as valuable as sugar.

Long History for T-Mobile

[Kagato]

For whatever reason, T-Mobile has been doing this for years. It started by targeting and filtering popular applications that weren't on their deck. On the one hand they don't want to allow any apps that don't any apps online that aren't paying $$$ to T-Mobile. On the other hand, T-Mobile is perpendicularly insane about who they allow on the deck. There are companies that are on every other deck on every other carrier that T-Mobile wants nothing to do with because they have some sub-par app they made on the deck that's mildly related.

Re:Long History for T-Mobile

[TooMuchToDo]

Please don't post bullshit here. T-Mobile disallowed T-zones from being full access (which is WHAT IS ADVERTISED) at all of it's geographic locations. They're simply applying the policy you agreed to. Tons of people got a free ride, and now are only get the crippled T-zones web for $5.99/month (whine whine whine). Those of us who have the $30/month unlimited data plan (which includes Wi-Fi access where available) aren't having any problems.

Slashdot: Check your brain at the door.

Re:Long History for T-Mobile

[Kagato]

It's not BS. T-Mobile started to target specific apps well over a year ago. Anyone who was using Digital Cyclone's My-Cast weather application found that out the hard way some time ago. You shouldn't need to pay $30 for the privilage to use apps that cost less than $5 a month on EVERY other cellular provider in the US. It's obvious that T-Mobile is using it's sub-par T-Zones offering to get people to go with data plans. For most people, you're lock in for the next year. While most people don't need a plan that fancy, you might as well try to push people to it.

It's also not BS that T-Mobile is insane about who it allows on the deck. Any application that works on Sprint, Nextel and Cingular (J2ME applications) can work on T-Mobile. So why aren't more apps out there??? Even Verizon, who has their own language you have to write your apps to (called Brew) allows more companies on the Deck of approved applications than T-Mobile. It should also be noted that companies like Sprint allow you to run non-deck applications. Nextel (owned by Sprint, but is it's own division/network because of vastly better Push To Talk technology) is the most permissive.

So, while T-Mobile does have the right to be heavy handed with pushing people to their data plans most users don't need, they also deserve to have the bad PR associated with it. Most people don't want or need a dataplan to do basic things like checking weather, or pulling up a map.

Article is wrong...

[tjhayes]

The article is wrong. Tmobile is NOT blocking third party applications. They are blocking specific PORTS, one of which is port 80 that Gmail and Google maps Java editions happen to use. You can get around the blocks by using a proxy server(there is a free one even provided by tmobile!, or you can run your own). This will give you back your access to port 80. Unfortunately Gmail and Google maps do not "inherit" the proxy settings that you enter into your phone, and therefore they still try to connect directly(i.e. not through the proxy) to port 80 and are blocked by Tmobile. Put in the proxy settings on the following page: http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/T-Mobile_Da ta#T-Mobile_Proxy_Settings and you will be able to access any webpage through pocket ie, only google maps and Gmail won't work.

There are some java apps that do allow you to specify a proxy server, its just sad that google couldn't add this simple option to two very popular apps that they distribute

Re:Article is wrong...

[saschasegan]

I think one of the problems here is that people are confusing two different issues.

What I was writing about in my blog is a practice of editing firmware to block third party apps on the handset side. This started on Samsung phones such as the T809 and T509 and has since spread to Motorola phones and Nokia phones, such as the 6133 and 5300.

This is independent of, and far less OK than, the port blocking T-Mobile is doing on their cheap Internet plan. As other posters are saying, blocking unapproved ports on the cheap Internet plan may just be a case of, you get what you pay for. But locking out apps on the handset side in firmware is just malicious.

Get RREAL (insider joke)

[Anonymous Coward]

As a customer care rep. for T-Mobile, this nonsensical blog deserves nil space on slashdot. Yes, we don't support the use of third-party software on our handsets but this does not mean we installed some mischievous software that actively monitors any apps trying to gain access to the web. The blogger simply does not have the wisdom to install his third-party software correctly (there have been numerous postings above me that had confirmed the mentioned software working). He then tries to blame T-Mobile for a situation beyond our scope of support and his competence. How are we supposed to support software we didn't even program?? that is why we don't support or "prohibit" (as he so strongly put it) third-party software but you can install it to your heart's desire. How did this trash even make it on slashdot?? The blog doesn't even mention any sources, just a hate filled opinion piece. Must I even mention that we have J.D. Power and Associates "Highest Ranked Wireless Customer Service Performance" five years in a row now... so if there is any trash talking leave it for the wireless companies that are not looking out for your best interest. Speaking of best interest, as an insider of t-mobile I must remain anonymous... side note: If you somehow think 'unlocking' your phone will fix your apps (which it shouldn't), all you have to do is call your wireless carrier and they can easily give you the code to unlock your phone. It is a misnomer that we will not give you the unlock codes.

Re:Get RREAL (insider joke)

[saschasegan]

If you're a T-Mobile customer care rep, here's an exercise for you. Go get a T-Mobile US branded Samsung T509 or T519 or a Nokia 6133 or 5300 - there are other feature phones that are blocked but those are the four I'm most familiar with. Then try to run Opera Mini. Go ahead, I'll wait. T-Mobile has edited the firmware on those phones and others to prevent unsigned Java apps from accessing the Internet.

I work for PC Magazine, and I've had this confirmed by both T-Mobile and Nokia.

Your confusion of "don't support" and "prohibit" is terrifying. Sure, by all means, don't SUPPORT Opera Mini. But that doesn't mean you have to actively go in and change phones' firmware to stop it from working. What's wrong with saying "if you're running Opera Mini, it's your problem?"

Whatever

[Jethro]

I had never been able to use opera mini (or any other 3rd party web application) on my t-mobile phone until I got an unlocked phone. Now I can do whatever I want. Hah.

From TFA

[The Evil Couch]

Posted by: Sascha Segan February 1, 2007 11:46 AM The phone that drove me nuts was a Nokia 6133, and I think the point that it's subsidized is bizarre; letting people use Opera Mini would increase, not decrease, T-Mobile's revenues by encouraging people to sign up for data plans. T-Mobile is shooting themselves in the foot by crippling the development of the third party software industry, lowering demand for mobile data.

The author's talking about ONE phone. Hardly indicative of a mass conspiracy to kill 3rd party apps. And the phone in question has no keyboard or stylus. While it might technically be capable of web browsing, I don't really see it working.

Wow

[yoyhed]

I was actually about to buy a data plan, as I have a Razr on a T-Mobile plan and I wanted to run such apps. I guess I'll unlock my phone and switch providers.

Re:maybe their network/OS sucks like iPhone/Cingul

[Mr2001]

On the one hand, I think it'd be very strange indeed for them to admit the network is that fragile, especially if it really is. If it really is that fragile, then they'd better stop selling Treos, Blackberries, HPCs, etc. and recall all the units they've already sold... because those handsets run third party apps, which means they're just as likely to "bring down the entire west coast network" as an iPhone.

Long-time Gray Market Savvy T-Mobile Customer

[cybereal]

The fact is, T-Mobile has changed their network access multiple times per year, every year, at random for at least 4 years. I have been using their network for various reasons for that long at least.

I just tested Google Maps and had no trouble. Chances are, anyone experiencing problems is experiencing them because of one of two reasons: A) Your region has different network access settings. The uplinks are PER CELL. Try driving 30 miles away from your house one day and see if you hit different results someplace else.

Or there's B) Perhaps your phone is outdated and incompatible. While EGPRS/EDGE is supposed to be backwards compatible, there are variations on the protocol and it might mean your phone does not support the proper slots orientation required by your region's cells.

These are just guesses as to why it doesn't work for you but does for me.

Regardless of all of this. Who cares about this sort of thing and doesn't have WiFi enabled phones already? Seriously, despite having a Nokia E70, I still use the EDGE occasionally. For the 10-20 minute ride to work and for the moments of severe boredom I endure while waiting for my fiancee at the mall.

Oh and when I'm at the store eating lunch. However, in that case I simply haven't bothered to setup the free wifi hotspot there.

Anyway all this babbling was meant to tell you that you are all concerned about nothing. Chances are the network will go back to normal. Or you simply have things misconfigured (T-Mobile USA has at least 4 different APNs for packet data and randomly requires a proxy server configured in the phone to work at all!). Give it a week and if nothing changes then learn how to find WiFi access points in all of your favorite places :)

Or just pay for unlimited internet access for $20/mo which doesn't block anything you're using and thus obviously works fine with third party apps. It also offers the benefit of unlimited use of T-Mobile hotspots which are some of the most ubiquitous hotspots in the US.

I can relate to this panic though. There simply is no better carrier in the US for anyone who likes to geek out on phones. For one thing, T-Mobile uses bands far more compatible with the general gray market phones than cingular. Cingular uses 850mhz in many regions and that's a USA thing exclusively. That means you either have to limit yourself to quad-band imports or a small selection of 850mhz supporting imports.

Re:Long-time Gray Market Savvy T-Mobile Customer

[saschasegan]

OK. I'm going to repeat the same thing I think I've repeated 28 times, and then say something new.

This block is in the firmware of a growing number of new, T-Mobile branded feature phones, such as the Samsung T519, Nokia 6133 and Nokia 5300. It does not apply to unlocked phones or smart phones, and it's handset based, not network based.

I'm deeply troubled by the idea that the "mainstream consumer" would never want to run a third party app on their phone. It feels to me like an exact parallel of the old gibbertybabble that the mainstream consumer would never use the Internet (c. 1986) or never want a computer in their home (c. 1966). Application developers and content providers are valiantly trying to make handheld computing accessible and compelling to the mass consumer. They haven't succeeded yet, but a lot of technologies need to go through a bunch of iterations before they break through to the masses -- see those computers I mention above. But by locking out apps, carriers try to prevent that market from ever developing. It's akin to the phone companies trying to prevent the masses from ever connecting to the Net or using the many, never-thought-of-before applications that were developed by a free Internet and PC marketplace.

Re:Long-time Gray Market Savvy T-Mobile Customer

[cybereal]

It's far simpler than an attempt to stop innovation. It's simply the only way the telecoms know how to increase their gross income per customer metric that is the bread and butter of their financial goals. T-mobile wants to force anyone who desires games or ringtones to pay t-mobile directly for them. Any value-added services, currently offered, or future planned will fall into this category as well. Apparently the whole navigation software thing is catching on, and I can imagine t-mobile would rather get you to use something they half-heartedly put together in the coming months than the free g-maps midlet and service.

The sad fact is that currently, your average idiot american user has no idea that he's carrying around a smaller, slower general purpose computing device everywhere he goes. And those that do realize this often don't realize how potentially useful third part software can be. This is only made worse by having no true killer apps for mobiles.

Personally my "killer app" that got me headed down the path of smarter, faster, higher resolution phones is JABPLite. A free app available on freepoc.org ... I can't imagine managing my cash accounts without this. I don't use a checkbook and can't remember for 20 minutes what I've bought on my debit card. This midlet makes my avoidance of overdraft fees possible.

Since then I've come to enjoy far more utilities on my phones, but that remains the one true requirement of any phone I buy.

And to comment on the firmware lockout, that's fine. But that's not new at all. T-Mobile has been doing this on random handsets in random ways for years. Perhaps lately it has just been on more phones than usual. Fortunately it sounds like it is not being done to any phone I would consider a worthwhile purchase anyway. Just the cheap crappy low end overpriced "feature phones." And the people buying those? They probably don't have the slightest idea of how to get a copy of tetris on their phone without paying t-mobile anyway.

Anyway, will there ever be a solution to the bigger issue of consumer awareness of mobile devices? Until there is, there is little hope of every having consumer power in this market. You make a good comparison to the early internet. It had the same issue for a very long time. But, at this point, I'm not really sure what the killer app was. I'm not sure there ever was one. And it's entirely possible that the only reason the internet is "open" now is because it was not designed to be closed easily in the first place. The mobile devices and networks, however, have been designed for operator locking for years :(

They give you Opera Mini in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought a pay-as-you-go Sony-Ericsson K750i - in the Netherlands. I comes with Opera Mini pre-installed. The branded phone is not even crippled apart from the simlock - files move in and out through any interface, something Zune doesn't Does have links to their 'get ringtones' services though and a shutdown animation that can't be removed.

FWIW the business model of Opera Mini seems to be in the start page. T-mobile has their own (quite useful though even though I'd prefer a blank page). Strange to see the mobile markets being very different around the world.

4. !Profit

[zokrath]

More appropriately:

1. Piss off your customers
2. Lose them to competitors
3. ?
4. !Profit

religion and politics

[Anonymous Coward]

Your signature qualifies as a troll. Let's pretend for a moment that you are interested in rational discourse on the topic of religion and politics. You'll be interested in pondering the question "why do religious people feel the need to tell other people how to live?". Atheists are not intolerant. In fact, on the whole, liberal democratic atheists are entirely too tolerant of the fasisct anti-democratic anti-constitutional actions of religious people. You may find the following book, interesting, if you are actually curious about such things.

NPR story on the book: American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America

Whatever happens, T-mobile has a niche

[netcrusher88]

Because they have the Sidekick. AFAIK you can't unlock the Sidekick (and now SK2 and SK3) - because it's made by T-mobile. Yes, the Sidekick is a stupid piece of equipment - nearly useless as an actual phone, not particularly interesting from an apps perspective, and so on - but it corners 2 niche markets. One, a handful of rich teenagers who either don't need voice or can buy a headset or a second phone (and I'm lumping people like Paris Hilton in here - yes, adults who (publicly) seem to act like spoiled 12-year-olds), and two, the deaf market. Most people wouldn't think of that second one, but I can tell you, it's a hugely important market and one that's not disappearing any time soon. I attend RIT - we play host to the National Technical Institute for the Deaf (about 1/10 of the students here) - and let me tell you, one of the quickest ways to discern deaf people from hearing, unless you know them already, is to look at their hip. If there's a Sidekick case there, odds are they're deaf. Now, there are a lot of deaf people without this - but then, you don't see deaf students walking around with a RAZR or any one of a hundred other phones from the other carriers.

And I'm some people think that the deaf market will cease to exist as technology advances - after all, cerebral implants are already pretty good. But it won't, first off because technology will always be expensive, and second, because some people are proud to be deaf. I have deaf friends who say they know people who threw away their cerebral implant (the part that goes on the outside, obviously), or at least they don't use it. Then again, they also say that may be in part due to peer pressure (hard to explain - some deaf people apparently feel that those who get the CI are traitors to their culture, or somesuch), but some people just would rather be deaf.

Anyway, T-mobile's not going anywhere. Regardless of ridiculous restrictions on it, people who really care about the cost of data plans - like the teenagers mentioned above - don't really care what they can't do with it. They just want to be able to text their friends and have the newest 16kbps version of whatever is topping the charts at the moment without paying much. The rest of you probably make your own money and don't have to explain to Mommy and Daddy why you want a new cell phone.

Obligatory Princess Bride quote

[Gary W. Longsine]

You keep using that word, vaporware. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:Obligatory Princess Bride quote

[sqlrob]

Hmmm. Look at those types...
Anticompetitive, Overambitious hype,Falls short of expectations, among others. Those fit right now.

Re:Obligatory Princess Bride quote

[Gary W. Longsine]

Hmm... read more than the table of contents. Apple *demonstrated a functioning product to the world*. Apple only made claims about things that *were demonstrated to work*. If you have overinflated expectations based on things *Apple never claimed* then that sounds like you have a bit of drain bammage. I typically don't try to engage crazy people in conversation. (Life is too short.) Bye bye!

Story doesn't mention that it is US-specific

[kizhyo]

This story is only about the US T-mobile network (there is no way the European parts of T-mobile would try this). Slashdot has an international readership, so why not make it clear in the write-up that it is about the US part of T-mobile?

Re:Story doesn't mention that it is US-specific

[3247]

This story is only about the US T-mobile network (there is no way the European parts of T-mobile would try this).

T-Mobile Germany (the "homeland" of Deutsche Telekom) has been doing this for years.

This is actually a great customer benefit

[Budenny]

People fail to understand this kind of thing, its very sad.

The fact is, the only way to design hardware is if you control the software that will run on it. The really important thing is to deliver an integrated experience. This is impossible if you are selling a product like Windows that will run on any old crappy hardware, and explains the superior user experience and stability of the Mac. It is impossible as a phone maker, if you have to allow any old crappy software to run on your phone. And its also impossible if you are a network operator and are obliged to allow any old crappy phone AND crappy software to run on your nice shiny network.

Now at last phone manufacturers and network operators are starting to wake up, and they too will deliver the integrated user experience in the same way, by banning unintegrated software and unintegrated hardware both from running on their platforms. Its the exact mirror image of banning your OS from running on the wrong sort of uncontrolled hardware, and like that, its great news, and we must hope it catches on generally.

Ignorant customers will be the problem.

They seem not to appreciate the benefits of integration, and they keep trying to migrate to clones whenever they have the chance. Well, they are wrong, and they must be stopped. Fact is, repeat after me, "T-Mobile is a network company". It makes its money from calls. This is great for all of us, and especially for T-Mobile, and shows why their strategy has always been like this and must always be like this, and why it was quite wrong to compel ATT back in the mists of time to allow crap phones and switches to be connected to their network, and why Apple is so much better than Microsoft or Linux.

This is called the end-to-end model or sometimes the integrated end user experience. Long may it live and flourish! And not just in Cupertino!

Own the phone

[Dr. Cody]

Doesn't anybody own their own telephone in the US? I guess I'm forced to because of the additional SIM cards I have to buy when I'm abroad, but it's not as though they prevent you from installing 3rd party apps on a phone you actually bought.

Re:Own the phone

[squiggleslash]

Yes, many of T-Mobile's customers buy their own phones. T-Mobile is a standard GSM carrier, and their network and SIM cards work with any GSM phones that are suitably unlocked and work on T-Mobile's 1900MHz frequencies.

The summary is wrong, the restriction only applies to phones T-Mobile sells, and it appears to be a software restriction as opposed to a contractual rule. It sucks, it really, really, sucks, there's no need for it, but that said the summary, and even to some extent the article, makes it look much, much, worse than it actually is.

You'll still better off using T-Mobile rather than Verizon or Sprint PCS. The quality is higher (in most areas), there are less call drops (in most areas), and you have the freedom to pick and choose the device you want to use and always have unrestricted devices available to you.

Whether this will always be the case isn't clear. T-Mobile's openness is one of the things that has attracted many customers to it, but lately it's been going the proprietary route for many types of service. The "My Faves" service plans, for example, require proprietary firmware on supported phones. You can't subscribe without buying such a phone, and I believe your ability to use the major feature of the service plan (unlimited calling to five selected numbers) is limited to work only when you use compatible phones.

One has to hope this is a blip, as is the (pointless) banning of Java apps, and that the old Voicestream we knew and loved is still living underneath.

Re:Own the phone

[cayenne8]

"You'll still better off using T-Mobile rather than Verizon or Sprint PCS. The quality is higher (in most areas), there are less call drops (in most areas), and you have the freedom to pick and choose the device you want to use and always have unrestricted devices available to you. "

I'm curious...with the GSM networks, how is the internet connectivity? I've been with Sprint for a long time...and one thing I've enjoyed, especially as an internet connectivity 'backup'..is to be able to tether my phone to my laptop via bluetooth or a cable. I pay for the Sprint Vision connectivity...and can connect through my phone to my computer as needed too. Which has been safe so far...not like I'm trading files or anything over it...

Can you do the same with T-Mobile or Cingular? Do they try to charge you extra for this? How is the data rate on GSM vs the Sprint type networks?

Before I switched...I'd be curious about this functionality...came in VERY handy during the recent hurricane evacuation times...

Re:Own the phone

[squiggleslash]

Cingular has 3G in some areas. T-Mobile is rolling it out this year at some point but hasn't yet. Until it's available in your area, you're limited to EDGE which has high latency and generally tops out around 100kbps.

Cingular generally charges by the kilobyte and finding a plan that will work with a device connected over Bluetooth isn't straightfoward. All of T-Mobile's plans are flat rate. Their basic $6/month plan offers unlimited traffic but has some port blocks. Right now it seems usable for most applications, web browsing (including SSL) and SSH work fine. T-Mobile doesn't do anything to prevent you from using the service with a laptop.

I don't know if any of this will change with UMTS (3G GSM.) A year ago, I'd have said probably not, but the whole proprietary route is something T-Mobile seems to be slowly embracing so I wouldn't bet on it.

Re:Own the phone

[ryanov]

I had T-Mobile before my boss said that she'd pay for a Verizon phone. I actually miss their service. Customer service was competent and polite. For the $29.99 total internet plan, I not only got unrestricted/unlimited internet access, but I could connect the phone anyway I wanted since its GSM and at least for Palm, there is a default/unlocked-GSM firmware available (I flashed mine away from Cingular Blue).

Verizon charges my company $49.99 and says that if I want to tether, it's an extra $15/mo on top of that! I have software to get around this, but that's absolutely outrageous. The speed is better, but not THAT much better!

If cell phone companies ran the internet...

[randolph]

You'd pay for each e-mail, and the web would have been blocked from the beginning.

Bah!

There is, of course, a solution to this garbage. It's called regulation.

Nothing new under the sun...

[Sloan47]

Nothing has really changed though. This was T-Mobile's policy in the past and around 8 months ago they opened up the ports on their $5.99 T-Mobile web plan. Before, they only allowed access to port 8080 and port 25 (I think port 25... not sure though). They just reinstated the old policy. Never stopped me before. It's shockingly easy to set up the T-Mobile proxy to port 8080 and it's a quick bypass. It's really not that big a deal.

Not new

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

This is not new. I'm surprised that this is just hitting the wire, because T-Mobile has been blocking internet access from their $5.99 "T-MobileWeb" (WAP/Proxied HTTP) plan for some time now - at least a year in my area. This is being rolled out nationally, and it's still not the case everywhere.

If you want full internet, you need to pay for the $29.99 "T-Mobile Total Internet" plan. Compared to the "Handset Only" plans of other carriers, it's a bit more expensive (e.g. $10 more than Cingular), but it's still cheaper than Verizon's PDA plan ($40) or any of the PC plans ($60).

Unlike Cingular/Sprint/Verizon, T-Mobile is smart enough to realize that you can't prevent users from using their service with a PC. Verizon locks their phones down so you can't, as does Cingular, which is why they can offer a low-bandwidth, low-cost service. T-Mobile has far too many phones out there that can teather (most officially), so their only other option for offering a "low-bandwidth" service is to block outgoing connections.

If T-MobileWeb didn't block ports, than everyone who wanted internet access with their PC would get the $5.99 service rather than the $29.99 service. Good for the users, bad for T-Mobile. This deal lasted for a long time, but it's not the case anymore.

You cannot, however, condemn T-Mobile for false advertising. T-MobileWeb/T-Zones has always been advertised as a "WAP only" service. They are providing what you paid for, and, if you don't like the restrictions, you are free to remove the service at any time. I wish that the $20 data plan were still around, but it isn't. The new plan actually saves me $10 a month (HotSpots/EDGE previously was $40), but if you don't want HotSpots, it's a pretty hefty price increase. You are welcome to try Sprint's service (do know that Sprint can charge you $.01/KB for "PC Usage), Cingular's, or Verizon's, but for an official, PC supported service, T-Mobile's is the cheapest.

Re:maybe their network/OS sucks like iPhone/Cingul

[ConfusedVorlon]

yup - I bring down the networks all the time.

I write software, release it in beta/alpha states.
Folks put it on their Treos and bam. No phone calls in the US.

hey - I wonder if I could sell my services to criminals?

Isn't this a symptom of a wider security problem ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember seeing an article where the person being interviewed stated that the iPhone would not be open to third party applications because of the potential havoc it could cause on the carriers network.

Now we are seeing a similar story with another carrier.

If this is the case, and it is possible for one or more mobile devices to compromise the security of a telcos mobile phone network, then their network must have serious security problems.

Banning third party applications may give carriers some false sense of security, but someone will work out how to get their application on their device. It's just human nature, and another aspect of the personalities that hang out on slashdot and other such sites.

This mis-placed confidence in their systems integrity does nothing more than create a blindspot that the bad people out there may exploit to the detriment of us all.

Dude, it's GSM, you can use any phone you like

[rwa2]

You can use any phone or device you like, just move your SIMM card over. Try doing that with any of the CDMA carriers. Simply search froogle / ebay for "unlocked GSM phone" that supports the frequencies used in your country (800/1900 for US, 900/1800 for THEM rest of the world).

The past two phones I've used on their US network were both tri-band phones bought from the UK market. It was (and probably still is) the only way I could get a decent phone with bluetooth and EDGE support that didn't have a built-in camera so I could actually bring it to work. (I still believe this is the true reason that Blackberries are /still/ kicking ass, just because they're they're one of only PDA/phone makers that has figured this out :P )

Spend your energy complaining at T-Mobile (and, well, just about every US carrier) on how you should get cheaper monthly service bills by unbundling the new/upgrade handset subsidies, please.

Re:Dude, it's GSM, you can use any phone you like

[Garabito]

Will a GSM phone accept my 16 MB 72 pin SIMM that has been in a drawer for years?

Contract Void?

[RawGutts]

So would this violate/void contracts with current customers, if the customer wanted to push the issue?

They signed the contract based on what they can/do with the phone at the time they signed the contract and now T-mobile is basically taking a eraser to the contract and re-writing the rules. It's not a living contract.

Come on... it's java!

[Cigarra]

There are people who will install ANYTHING if they have even the slightest hint that it might be cool. And when they wreck their phones

How can you wreck your phone with a JAVA application?

So sick of these morons, I ditched the whole thing

[karlandtanya]

Well, tried to, anyhow.

My wife wants a *little* more than a 911 phone in the car (ANY cell phone in the US will dial emergency 911 services, even if it's not subscribed).

So, we have a prepaid phone with TMobile. I think we wind up spending about $5.00/month.

That's about all I'm interested in paying until these idiots clean up their act.

Blocking VOIP services and controlling content

[jedi_gras]

I would guess that this move is designed to ensure that the cellular "pay by minute" model does not go the way of the dinosaurs. If we are moving towards mobile broadband connections on all cell phones, it's not a far cry to have users install Skype or other generic VoIP clients on their phones to make calls (especially to bypass those expensive international rates).

Also, I would guess that this move allows the carrier to control content and maintain a licensing fee or commission for software placed on their phones. (I guess the Apple iPhone would be an exception...seems like AT&T is bending ov^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H not getting a good deal here).

painful reloading

[christyegg]

A problem with smartphones is that if they are sent back for repair all the software a user has loaded gets wiped. Very irritating. While TMobiles stance is ridiculous (selling a smartphone then banning applications to be loaded onto it) it does at least prevent this irritation.

Typical T-Mo behavior!

[thelegendofzaku]

Why am I not surprised? That's right, T-Mo loves doing this to not just regular users, but developers as well. Basically, in order for an J2ME app to use T-Mobile's network, it needs to be digitally signed, but here's the catch, you can't use your sig, but theirs, and good luck trying to get it from them, they don't just give them out like candy, they only give them to a small and selective group of big boy developers/content distributors. When I worked on apps for that carrier (and mind you, our apps use the network all of the time), I always had to send them to our distributor since they had T-Mo's special signature, and I would wait hours and days just to get the build back from them, thus becoming very tedious and annoying. In all, T-Mobile just likes shooting themselves in the foot by screwing over the little guy by making him act like a poodle jumping through a hoop.

Only in America...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does greater competition in any sector equate to fewer options for consumers. The wireless industry seems like a race to the bottom in terms of choice for consumers. Longer contract terms, higher prices on phones, increased data fees, and greater restrictions on "freebees"

News

[sacrilicious]

This has been going on for awhile, and really isn't news.

Just wanted to point out that "going on for a while" doesn't determine whether something is news... "news" is determined by whether people were aware of something on a widespread basis. Example: if a previously-unknown World War II death camp is discovered in Germany, it's news.

You get what you pay for

[kwhite]

No offense to everyone complaining but you get what you pay for. Of course the phone companies are going to restrict a phone they have to service that way it makes it easier for customer service etc.

I have tMobile and have not had problems with third party apps going against my phone. Of course I paid a little extra money and received an unlock phone. That way I can do what I want to the phone. The only time I call customer service is if I'm not getting data, not getting calls, or not getting txt messages. If one of my apps is not working, or I can't get my ringtones I create myself to install its all on me.

I am surprised by the number of "geeks" here who apparently but a tied down phone yet will look long and hard for an OS or software that will allow them to do what they please with it. I did that with my phone. I found a place that sold unlocked phones for about twice as much as it costs for me to get a "locked" phone.

Why not research and see what you can find before complaining.

Whew!

[Moofie]

Good thing I heard about this now. I was starting to consider a new phone service. Thanks for making my decision easier, T-Mobile!

Liberties I don't know about, but contracts?

[phorm]

I don't know if I'd say that cell-phone crippling infringes on one's liberties (last time I checked one did not have an unaliable right to 3rd-party apps on a phone), but how about meeting their contractual obligations. I know a lot of cellphone providers which advertise a service, only to pull sneaky tricks on it later.

If your provider is crippling their phones, what is your recourse? How about if they're changing the network topology (mine is supposedly disbanding the analog towers due to high cost and low use, but they're also the only real way to get a call out from inside many buildings where I work)?

If something isn't in a contract, but it is part of what is advertised at the time, is it part of a contractual obligation? How about if they're not advertising important details (like, we'll sell you phone X, but not mention that it's phone X minus a whackload of features due to crippleware). I know many people who were pissed because they spent $40-50 on data cables only to find they couldn't do anything with them due to software crippling.

So unlocking the phone won't work?

[adrew]

I just upgraded from my trusty old Sony Ericsson T610 to a Samsung SGH-T509 since the Sony's battery was shot and the Samsung was a free upgrade. The first thing I did was download Google Maps and Gmail onto the phone, but they throw up an error message about not having network access.

I emailed T-Mobile about it and they said they would unlock the phone for me. I haven't written them back yet. Will that fix it, or am I still stuck since I have the crippled firmware?

Here's the fix...

[SponjWorthy]

Change your APN to wap.voicestream.com Username: guest Password: guest MidpSSH, OperaMini, Google Maps etc etc all work fine on my Blackberry 8100 now, should work for the rest of the phones too. Note that you do have to have a data plan... ~Sponj

Ran into this on the Motorola V195

[Dahan]

I've been a T-Mobile subscriber for a couple years now (from when they were Voicestream), and I recently decided to replace my aging phone. I wasn't looking for anything too fancy, but did want a phone that had Bluetooth, and could run Java MIDlets. T-Mobile has a deal where if you've had your phone for a while, you can get a new phone for a discount (with the discount varying depending on whether or not you want to extend your contract). I wasn't interested in extending my contract, so I also looked into getting an unlocked phone from someone other than T-Mobile.

In the end, I decided to get a Motorola V195 from T-Mobile, with no contract extension. After I got the phone, I loaded a Java Jabber IM client, since the client that comes with the phone only supports AIM, ICQ, and Yahoo--only to find that the IM client wasn't able to connect to the Internet, despite having the full Internet plan. (I am able to get full access to the Internet from my laptop using GPRS through the phone). After looking around on the web, it turns out that T-Mobile has modified the phone's firmware so that Java MIDlets get a java.lang.SecurityException when attempting to connect to the internet. From what I gather, it's possible to flash the phone with an unrestricted firmware, but I haven't found the details on how to do that, and besides, I shouldn't have to do that. It's my phone, and I'm paying for full internet access--what possible reason is there to keep my phone from accessing the internet?

No, you need debranding!

[krischik]

which is a more tricky - but still not impossible. Just de branded my P990i - took me half an hour and cost 6,--.

The point is that branding is done on the firmware level - that is: the carrier supplies a specially modified operating system for your phone. With that they can switch on and off almost any feature they like.

But this also means that every operating system update need to be re branded by the carrier. I suggest you have a look here: http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/CDA/P99 0i. Of course SEUS (Sony Ericsson Update Service) will check you Phone (by that magic CDA number) and only offer updates which have been authorised by by your carrier.

Most branded P990i are now two or more versions behind the current release. For Joe Average this might be Ok - But Bill Poweruser might not like that. Note that nowadays even for (smart)phones version 1 of the operating system almost unusable. See http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28242.

Martin

Tmobile software exclusions and customer migration

[clambar]

I used to use a Nextel version of Blackberry 7520.

Seems proprietary software is easier for network programmers to manage. In the end it all comes down to functionality, at what cost? For those who are driving the Hummer and writing it off, functionality is why they do what they do.

Using Palm's 700p on Verizon's network, I can't use Yahoo- it's not compatable. So I use Hotmail. It's easy and quick.

With the unlimited data package from Verizon, at least I can relax, secure in the knowledge that if I use the phone for all it's worth, I won't be getting a $514.00 phone bill from Nextel and RIM for "Global Services". Canada's a great country, but I shouldn't have to subsidize them with my phone internet bill.

Re:Anger & Intolerance among Athiests?

[clambar]

We all like each other actually. You realise God is Software right? Humans create software. Humans, to work the concept (their version) must therefore create God.

Tmobile proprietary internet

[clambar]

They're probably taking lessons from the RIM Playbook. Your less likely to get in trouble, if your using your own software, no?