Indian Nationalists Forcibly Censor Orkut

starkravingmad writes "The Economic Times is running a story on Hindu nationalists in India threatening to wreck internet cafes that don't block parts of Orkut that the vigilantes find offensive. From the article: '"Orkut is used by many destructive elements to spread canards about India, Hindus, our gods and cultural heritage," said Abhijit Phanse, president of Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena, the student group. "We are gently telling Internet cafe owners that it is their responsibility to see that surfers do not use their facility to carry out such hate campaigns ... Or else, we will have to do that job for them." Last week, dozens of Shiv Sena workers vandalised some Internet centres, saying they were not stopping their customers from accessing Orkut groups involved in sending hate messages.'"

Comments

why bother?

[ILuvRamen]

Why do these censoring countries and the groups in them even bother? They're just going to be twice as pissed when 13 year olds find ways around it lol. The harder you try and block it, the harder people will try to unblock it and then you look like the bad guy for trying to block it.

Re:why bother?

[ResidntGeek]

Do you honestly think these people care more about looking good than about doing the will of their gods?

Re:why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

This has got absolutely nothing to do with religion.

This is just another vote bank tactic to gain the votes of the poor and middle-class by using these "campaigns".

The internet penetration is so low that nobody in India really cares about Orkut or any other site for that matter. This just a show to the larger middle-class population that they are taking steps to "preserve the culture".

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

> Do you honestly think these people care more about looking good than about doing the will of their gods?

Except that Hinduism's Gods have never exactly encouraged wanton violence. And there are enough tales of the Gods themselves playing pranks and turning each other into various odd forms -- including, famously, giving Shiva's son an elephant head. So it's not that they lack a sense of humor either. Nope, these things aren't masterminded by religious leaders, they're masterminded by cynical semi-fascist political leaders with goons at their command.

Any Shiv Sena types reading this -- you guys are a disgrace to Hinduism. In a country where caste wars are still going on, where caste is big political business two *generations* after untouchability was abolished, you have nothing better to do than get your dhotis in a bunch because someone is laughing at you? Yeah, behaving like Neo-Nazi goons will really help. Assholes.

Please take your Chhatrapati Shivaji statue and shaft yourself in the rectum with it.

Re:why bother?

[bladesjester]

Except that Hinduism's Gods have never exactly encouraged wanton violence.

Eh, yes and no. Keep in mind that a lot of the Hindu gods and goddesses have many facets to their characters including many which are downright unplesant. Some of the Kali cults have been full of murderous little buggers (the Thugees being one such group).

As for Ganesha, the stories of how he got the elephant head vary, though the more often repeated ones involve him losing his human head (either in battle or through a curse) and having it replaced with the head of an elephant.

Hindu mythology is an interesting topic. Then again, most mythologies are...

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

It seems that u r having more violent character than those "so called" Shiv Sena type people (read back ur comment carefully, as well as ur signature). I can't mod u down because I am responding ur message...but ur comment does deserve a mod-down.

And to tell u, if someone supports a campaign protecting one's culture, it doesn't necessarily mean that the individual use to have a negative thinking.

If someone admires Chhatrapati Shivaji, it is indeed good and everyone should be proud of that (including u, if u r not among those who prefer to take pride in others' deeds instead of ur own country's). Shivaji and many others, who have done great things for our country do deserve admiration. Status of Shivaji is not going to be changed, doesn't matter what a shithead like u think.

Re:why bother?

[Bastard of Subhumani]

Hindu mythology is an interesting topic. Then again, most mythologies are...

Just as long as you're not daft enough to actually believe any of them.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

> as well as ur signature

If you can't tell that the signature is quoting something very funny that someone else said (that hyperlink thing, you know), you need reading comprehension class.

> but ur comment does deserve a mod-down.

Sure, mod me down because I've hurt your feelings. If I were physically present, you'd probably be calling for my head. See where the fascist tendencies come from?

> Status of Shivaji is not going to be changed

No, but it will change thanks to neo-Nazis like the Shiv Sena and this Internet-cafe-bashing organization. Just like St George became the mascot for quite a few racist English bigots. Frankly the Shiv Sena (and their friend Narendra Modi in Gujarat) are doing a much better job besmirching Indian culture than anyone else ever can.

> And to tell u, if someone supports a campaign protecting one's culture, it doesn't necessarily mean that the individual use to have a negative thinking.

Vandalizing others' property and/or terrorizing others != protecting your culture. Don't pretend to teach me what Hinduism is. I've actually read the Vedas and know my heritage better than you do.

And oh, writing "u" all the time makes you look like an idiot. Try and refrain.

Re:why bother?

[king-manic]

Bhere is right, your comment and the report of RSS and Shiv Sena actions have greatly diminished my idea of Hindu's. Although I respect his position more and I assume he is a Hindu. Violence is the last resort of the incompetent and the action reported in the article clearly high light this. If they were competent they would ignore the small slights and aim for larger political goals. Instead they storm around like goods giving Hindu's a bad name.

Re:why bother?

[XchristX]

Bhere is right, your comment and the report of RSS and Shiv Sena actions have greatly diminished my idea of Hindu's. Although I respect his position more and I assume he is a Hindu. Violence is the last resort of the incompetent and the action reported in the article clearly high light this. If they were competent they would ignore the small slights and aim for larger political goals. Instead they storm around like goods giving Hindu's a bad name. If a comment and a report converts you into an anti-Hindu bigot then I suppose debating with you is a waste of time, but here goes. Hindus have the same rights to protect, preserve and practice their faith, culture and society as anyone else. While I do not support mindless violence, the only reason why these people have gone that far is because they have been pushed there by the Communist-dominated Indian government, polity and intelligentsia, who spend a good deal of their time and political power creating a culture of hatred against Hindus in general.

Violence is the last resort of the incompetent Not in the real world. The real world often require defense with weapons and armies. Otherwise America and her allies could never have liberated Germany from the Reich, and India would never have liberated a brutally persecuted Bengali population from Pakistan in 1971. Those wars were violent, but necessary.

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

At first, about ur signature: it doesn't matter what ur link points to or whether it is ur original or u have copied it from somewhere else, but, what it does indicate is a violent character hidden inside u. If u r referring to someone else's comment which is violent in nature, is equivalent to the fact that ur nature synchronize with that of the link. And that's why, it also indicates about u that u r even worse that ur worst, the Shiv Sena.

No, I would not be calling for ur head. Instead, I would have been telling u personally to keep ur head cool down and with ur cool-head, to compare urself with those of the Shiv Sena (whether u r worse or not). Well, even Shiv Sena won't be demanding ur head because they also don't take interest in shitheads.

About the internet bashing, well, if anyone is demanding that the orkut-groups, what r involved in raising anti-religion agenda, should be filtered out, what's wrong with it?? It may b an anti-hinduism group, may b an anti-muslim group, or whatever else....what's wrong with it. u may be thinking that these small things doesn't matter and people ignore, but that's not the thing what happens in practicality, especially in our beloved country. let me clarify the fact that I morally support their campaign, but not the violent ways they sometimes choose to get it done.

And finally, I couldn't understand the point u made against my use of "u" instead of "you"?? If u r talking about perfection in writing english, well, I would say better u check ur own comments before pointing out others'. Do u realize how many mistakes r there in ur comment?? It did nothing but confirmed my guess about ur shitheadness.

Re:why bother?

[king-manic]

If a comment and a report converts you into an anti-Hindu bigot then I suppose debating with you is a waste of time, but here goes. Hindus have the same rights to protect, preserve and practice their faith, culture and society as anyone else. While I do not support mindless violence, the only reason why these people have gone that far is because they have been pushed there by the Communist-dominated Indian government, polity and intelligentsia, who spend a good deal of their time and political power creating a culture of hatred against Hindus in general.

I fully agree that Hindu's have the exact same right as other cultures ot preserve themselves. That is to say NONE. No culture has any intrinsic right to exist. It is simply a secondary trait of large groups of people. Cultures grows, mutates, recede, fades. Usually "cultural protection" is just another name for racism (see Indonesia/malaysia/France). I haven't a good ideas of how "anti-Hindu" the "communist" government is but a lot of the reforms that I am aware of that effect Hindu's tend to be positive human rights related things (laws regarding the untouchables).

Not in the real world. The real world often require defense with weapons and armies. Otherwise America and her allies could never have liberated Germany from the Reich, and India would never have liberated a brutally persecuted Bengali population from Pakistan in 1971. Those wars were violent, but necessary.

The truly competent devised the Marshall plan, avoiding a third world war through diplomacy and foresight. A truly competent organization would foresee such problems as the bitterness of a highly capable German populace after WWI and not written the treaty of versalles. Hind sight is 20/20 but generally the competent find other avenues and violence is a last resort. See Sun Tsu's treaty on the subject of war. I will agree that violence has it place but you explore other avenues first. The incompetent run to violence fastest because they have so few other options due to their lack or wisdom, intelligence, and guile.

Re:why bother?

[XchristX]

but a lot of the reforms that I am aware of that effect Hindu's tend to be positive human rights related things (laws regarding the untouchables). Quite so, but most of those reforms were done by Hindus. Hindus are hated even more because they reformed. The hatred stems from those communities and political groups who do not show the same propensity for reform as Hindus, and, instead of observing and learning from them, wind up loathing them instead. The dynamic of anti-Hindu bigotry is basically the same as that of Anti-Semitism in Europe and the Middle east. Jews were/are hated primarily for their social and cultural pliability by Anti-Semites, as are Hindus by Anti-Hindus.

No culture has any intrinsic right to exist So you're saying that Israel does not have an intrinsic right to exist as a Jewish State? You might want to read something about the long and tragic history of Antisemitism in Europe and the Middle East before reaching such a radical conclusion. How about the Irish? Didn't they have a fundamental and intrinsic right to fight anti-Irish persecution and discrimination by the English for the preservation of their right to exist? Hindus are doing just that. Fighting with increasing desperation for their right to exist without fear of persecution or discrimination.

Usually "cultural protection" is just another name for racism In my view, I consider such a statement to be itself a racist one, though perhaps in an "equal opportunity offender" sense. Every culture has a fundamental right to survive and grow, so long as it is not at the expense of others (a very significant proviso). To hold a view that is as radical as yours creates an atmosphere of conflict and violence between cultures, and sounds too much like political anarchism for comfort.

I will agree that violence has it place but you explore other avenues first I don't disagree that violence is a last refuge, but when a people are being systematically persecuted, attacked and their collective backs are against a wall, and when those who hate and loathe them intransigently refuse to engage in "negotiations" or "diplomacy",what is left to do, other than the "last refuge"? You should perhaps read about the often brutal and genocidal nature of anti-Hindu persecution in the history of South Asia before you arrive at your perorations.

Re:why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

...when 13 year olds find ways around it lol Are you sure you are not one of them?

Re:why bother?

[skahshah]

And finally, I couldn't understand the point u made against my use of "u" instead of "you"?? If u r talking about perfection in writing english, well, I would say better u check ur own comments before pointing out others'. Do u realize how many mistakes r there in ur comment?? It did nothing but confirmed my guess about ur shitheadness.

For many people here, english isn't our first language. It is the international language, and, wether we come from Italy, Spain, France, Brazil, Argentina or any other place, we have to cope already with the vernacular expressions, regionalisms, cultural references, spelling and grammatical errors. Why make it deliberately harder for us to read and understand the comments? After all, what is freedom of expression without communication ?

Re:why bother?

[king-manic]

Quite so, but most of those reforms were done by Hindus. Hindus are hated even more because they reformed. The hatred stems from those communities and political groups who do not show the same propensity for reform as Hindus, and, instead of observing and learning from them, wind up loathing them instead. The dynamic of anti-Hindu bigotry is basically the same as that of Anti-Semitism in Europe and the Middle east. Jews were/are hated primarily for their social and cultural pliability by Anti-Semites, as are Hindus by Anti-Hindus.

You can't really chalk up a wandering squad of goons to "fighting anti-Hinduism". That as about as logical as justifying a bunch of country yokels in white hoods as just "fighting anti-white people-ness".

So you're saying that Israel does not have an intrinsic right to exist as a Jewish State? You might want to read something about the long and tragic history of Antisemitism in Europe and the Middle East before reaching such a radical conclusion. How about the Irish? Didn't they have a fundamental and intrinsic right to fight anti-Irish persecution and discrimination by the English for the preservation of their right to exist? Hindus are doing just that. Fighting with increasing desperation for their right to exist without fear of persecution or discrimination.

No, there is no intrinsic right for their culture to be preserved. If it died it died if it was subsumed into a larger culture so be it, if it mutates into something else fine. Individual rights should always trump "culture" since "culture" is just a particular set of values that are mutable. A culture will grow, will shrink, will die.

In my view, I consider such a statement to be itself a racist one, though perhaps in an "equal opportunity offender" sense. Every culture has a fundamental right to survive and grow, so long as it is not at the expense of others (a very significant proviso). To hold a view that is as radical as yours creates an atmosphere of conflict and violence between cultures, and sounds too much like political anarchism for comfort.

Think hard about this statement. For one culture to grow another must shrink. What I'm saying is merely what exists. Cultures come and go. Rise and fall, grow and recede. Culture is so mutable that modern "Jews" would be unrecognizable to middle-ages Jews. It is in a sense a different culture. Thats how it works. grow, change, shrink, die. To ascribe cultures "rights" is to invite racism, ethnocentrism, and massive logical fallacies. For instance lets say we have a culture of "nerds". And lets say this group dwindled into just a hundred individuals. They all happen to be men and all happen to be massively repellent to women, that is why there is only 100 left. By your logic they should be allowed to forcefully bring women into their community to rape them, to keep their culture going. No. If a culture cannot stand on its own, it will die eventually or shrink to insignificance. If it is small but self perpetuating then more power to them, but the culture itself should have no rights. People have rights, ideas should not.

I don't disagree that violence is a last refuge, but when a people are being systematically persecuted, attacked and their collective backs are against a wall, and when those who hate and loathe them intransigently refuse to engage in "negotiations" or "diplomacy",what is left to do, other than the "last refuge"? You should perhaps read about the often brutal and genocidal nature of anti-Hindu persecution in the history of South Asia before you arrive at your perorations.

Past wrongs do not justify current wrongs. My great-great grand father may have been abused by his white employers while he made the Canadian railroads but it doe snot justify me taking it out on that employers great grand son. One of my ex-GF was massively oppressed for being non-Muslim in Indonesia but that would not justify her blowing up Jakarta. The idea is they should find other avenues or they simply invite reprisal in kind. If there is no group large enough to hit them in kind then your arguments about "back against the wall" is ridiculous. Either way these tactics just invite bad PR, more violence, and animosity.

Re:why bother?

[skahshah]

Hindu reformists are probably more hated by hindu fanatics than by any other group. In fact, I'm willing to bet that for moderate muslims or christians, hindu reformists are a good thing, and that for fanatic muslims or christians, reformists or not, Hindus are infidels or pagans and deserve the same scorn.

Re:why bother?

[XchristX]

You can't really chalk up a wandering squad of goons to "fighting anti-Hinduism". That as about as logical as justifying a bunch of country yokels in white hoods as just "fighting anti-white people-ness". As expected, you totally misunderstood my contention. I do not approve of their actions, but I do understand them, and provided the context for that understanding.

For one culture to grow another must shrink Kaun Bola (says who)? The British and French were always perceived as antagonistic to each other at a cultural level, yet both cultures grew and neither "shrank"

Culture is so mutable that modern "Jews" would be unrecognizable to middle-ages Jews Yes, yes, I accept that. There is reformist and reconstructionist Judaism and all that. However, that does not negate the fundamental right of Jews to exist as an identifiable cultural entity. The Hindus of today would be totally unrecognizable to Hindus of the Vedic period (in fact, some don't even regard Vedic period Indians as Hindus per se, but the followers of an older faith). Cultures may change and evolve and all that, but they still have a fundamental right to exist.

To ascribe cultures "rights" is to invite racism, ethnocentrism, and massive logical fallacies That will only happen if that cultures grows at the expense of another. I do not believe that this will happen with Hindus.

Past wrongs do not justify current wrongs These are not "past wrongs". Hindus are being persecuted right now, even as we speak. Again, that does not justify these particular actions, but it does provide a broader context for them.

Re:why bother?

[XchristX]

Hindu reformists are probably more hated by hindu fanatics than by any other group. Wrong. You obviously have read nothing of Indian history beyond the socialist propaganda taught in Indian schools. If you have read about the Hyderabad massacres after India's independence, you will see that radical Muslim "Razakars" attacked many Hindu reformers and spread hatred against them, including Gandhi (who was more of a dictator than a reformer, but I digress) and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, a reformer. Christian missionaries routinely spread hatred against Hindu reformers like Swami Dayanand Saraswati who was perceived as a "threat" to their activities. Besides, there are no "Hindu Fanatics". That is merely a propaganda term invented by the Communist politburo in India to justify terrorism against Hindus in general. If you know anything about Hinduism as a religious system you wills see that it is essentially humanly impossible to be a "fanatic" about Hinduism in the same sense that it is possible to be one for Abrahamic religions. The terms "Hindu Fanatic", "Hindu animal", "Hindu Nazi", or "Hindu scum" are essentially opprobria invented to silence criticism and debate through fear and hatred directed at Hindus, nothing more.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that for moderate muslims or christians, hindu reformists are a good thing Is that the reason why an average of five Hindus are murdered by the Islamist Bangladesh Nationalist Party and the Jamaat-e-Islami every day?Both groups see themselves as "moderate" Muslims. During partition, to be a Hindu in East Bengal or Pakistan meant instant lynching and death. Were the victims of the Partition riots, the Noakhali pogroms, the Morichjhanpi pogrom, the Direct Action riots, the Wandhama MAssacre, the Kaluchak Massacre, the Lahore Massacres all "Fanatic Hindus"? The ones who perpetrated these acts were not all "fanatic" Muslims either. Many were self-perceived moderates attacking Hindus, many of the Hindus were modern and educated intellectuals who can be thought of as "reformers". During the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atroc ities, millions of Hindu intellectuals were targeted by the "moderate Muslim" populated Pakistan Army for extermination. These people, by construction, were reformers. The Christian Fundamentalist "National Liberation Front of Tripura" murdered an average of 13,000 Hindus per year in the North-East? The NLFT saw themselves as "moderate" too.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

> it doesn't matter what ur link points to or whether it is ur original or u have copied it from somewhere else, but, what it does indicate is a violent character hidden inside u.

You really need that reading comprehension. The fact that folk can quote something because they want to laugh at it (especially with all the 'fucking kill you' jokes Ballmer spawned) is beyond you. But then being religious can take away your sense of humor, so I won't hold that against you.

> It may b an anti-hinduism group, may b an anti-muslim group, or whatever else....what's wrong with it.

Because your constitution promises free speech. Because India is supposed to be ruled by law, and religions are not above the law. Your leaders might treat the freedom to speak like toilet paper to be tossed away whenever an angry mob assembles, but in most of the civilized world that doesn't work. You need to ask yourself whether mob-rule is what you want.

In fact, on the same principle I support Thackeray when he spouts his anti-Moslem bile, because he has a right to say it. It's ironic that Thackeray sees himself at liberty to denounce Moslems, but his supporters gets worked up when Hindus are mocked. This is by no means fair.

> let me clarify the fact that I morally support their campaign

Oh right. (This sounds exactly like Pakistan's line on terrorism in Kashmir -- "we support them morally only".) You support their campaign but not the violence? Let me give you a clue: when the campaign is violent, you are effectively supporting violence by not condemning it.

> Do u realize how many mistakes r there in ur comment??

Do tell. I make mistakes all the time, but I try and fix them when told about it.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

> Besides, there are no "Hindu Fanatics".

Really? The chappies who trashed Valentines Day couples must have been figments of the Indian media's collective imagination. Oh wait, don't tell me-- it was also part of the vast Communist-Christian-Muslim conspiracy against Hinduism. Ditto the nice people who chop off Muslims' heads en masse in riots. Oh wait, they are provoked. They have no choice but to ignore the rule of law and become animals.

With attitudes like that, you dream of becoming a world intellectual leader ("vishwaguru")? Fat chance.

Btw, all of your lessons in Hindu history pale into insignificance because you forget one thing: there is no one Hindu society. Hindu society is fractured into caste and subcaste. Take a look at what's happening in Rajasthan. First set your own house in order. Get rid of ignorance and superstition. Go to the villages and non-major cities and drive away the evils of caste. Then people might take you a little more seriously.

There's a lot of good in Vedic Hinduism, except that no one in the country really follows it. They're too entranced by a monkey god and a chap who drove his wife away on the word of a washerman*. And of course there are snakes and rats to worship.

* That's Hinduism's so-called "ideal person", Rama.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

Let me get this straight. You're comparing World War 2 and the Pakistani persecution of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) with some Orkut forums?

Wow. Just ... wow. Of course. I see it now: someone has established a HindusSuckBalls group, so let's bring out those nukes and bomb whoever's responsible. Oh we can't? Alright, we'll beat up cafe owners to send a message.

Honestly, can we forget about WW2 and focus on how violence in justified in this case? Any right-thinking person would see: it's not. The fact that you don't shows just how fanaticism can addle the brain.

Re:why bother?

[canUbeleiveIT]

That as about as logical as justifying a bunch of country yokels in white hoods as just "fighting anti-white people-ness".

The idea that the KKK is made up of the rural poor has been shown to be false. KKK members are distributed between urban and rural areas in percentages consistent with the general population. The same goes for income and class. For the record, neither do KKK members predominantly belong to fundamentalist Christian denominations. The only thing that is consistent about their membership is that--predictably--they are *overwhelmingly* white and mostly nominally Protestant. So, it seems that ignorance and meanness is not limited to those of us who happen to live in areas with a lower population density.

But thanks anyway for stereotyping us in the midst of your moralizing.

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

Freedom of speech in a civilized world...wow!! what constitutes a civilized world?? America or may be u have Denmark in ur mind for their anti-muslim cartoons. Freedom is speech should only be practiced if it doesn't hurt anyone. Just think of a situation...someone comes to u in ur office and uses slangs against u....what will u do? Will u say that "hey it's ok...it is the freedom of speech what he is practicing"?? And if u say so, u r different from most of the people...and it is those very same most of the people who determine the consequences of freedom of speech. If Thackeray speaks anything anti-muslim, he is also wrong because it hurts many others. I would say, be practical.

Someone may support the campaign (including me) because of the objective the campaign is having. It doesn't make sense if u r comparing it with Pakistan's support to anti-Indian militants. They say that they support is "morally" only but the reality is something else what is not needed to be mentioned explicitly. I support the agenda they have that orkut should be filtered out of those groups involved in such activities...but it doesn't mean that I support their way of violence.

About perfection in writing English, well, some ppl use shortened words, like "u" instead of "you", to fasten their speed....what is important is if the idea is conveyed or not....if yes, "u" is ok...if not, "u" is not ok. However, what my understanding is, is using "u" instead of "u" or "r" instead of "are" r well perceived by the people and therefore should not be pointed out specifically. Being an idealist doesn't make sense always.

Re:why bother?

[bladesjester]

Just as long as you're not daft enough to actually believe any of them.

I fail to see what's wrong with having a little faith in something. Becoming blinded by your faith (whether it's your faith in a religion or in science) is something entirely different.

Life requires balance. Being too far one way or the other is not a positive thing.

If you like, we can even go for an Einstein quote.

When asked by an astounded atheist, if he were in fact deeply religious, Einstein replied:

"Yes, you can call it that. Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious. "

Re:why bother?

[king-manic]

As expected, you totally misunderstood my contention. I do not approve of their actions, but I do understand them, and provided the context for that understanding.

Then condemn the actions and the group. You cannot be lenient just because you have a soft spot for some of the ideas of the evil-doers .

Kaun Bola (says who)? The British and French were always perceived as antagonistic to each other at a cultural level, yet both cultures grew and neither "shrank"

They expanded at the expense of the East Indian, Native American, Chinese, Vietnamese, Algerian, Spanish etc... The English and French culture spread and subjugated others and diminishes other cultures in numbers and in influence. In the past century the English culture kept expanding in a different form (American English culture) and French has been receding from it's pinnacle.

Cultures may change and evolve and all that, but they still have a fundamental right to exist.

I am stating a empirical truth. No actually they don't. A culture is not valuable in and of itself. I strongly believe that an individual should be allowed to choose and live in/practice any culture or religion he pleases but any culture does nto have any innate right to exist either logically, realistically, or morally.

That will only happen if that cultures grows at the expense of another. I do not believe that this will happen with Hindus.

Islam grew at the expense of other non abrihamic cultures in the region. Christianity grew at the expense of the various tribal and polytheistic beliefs in Europe and in the middle east, finally being evicted out of most parts of the middle east. American culture grew at the expense of the native cultures. So many examples that you cannot deny the truth that for one to "grow" another must shrink.

These are not "past wrongs". Hindus are being persecuted right now, even as we speak. Again, that does not justify these particular actions, but it does provide a broader context for them.

Perhaps but i condemn the actions all the same. A villain is a villain. The type of racism that these two groups represent is still repugnant with any justification.

Re:why bother?

[XchristX]

Really? The chappies who trashed Valentines Day couples must have been figments of the Indian media's collective imagination
</quote>

Where was this Indian Media when 2 million Hindus were slaughtered by the Pakistani government in 1971? Where was this Indian media when Hindus were being exterminated in Kashmir, or the Northeast, or by the Bangladesh Nationalist Party, or by Idi Amin in Uganda? Nowhere. They were busy reporting on how some idiots running after Valentine's day couples and blaming it all on the Hindus. All this sensationalist exaggeration of a few relatively commonmplace events (do you want me to list the incidents of thuggery, attacks, mass rapes, fatwas, bombings, beheadings and riots instigated by the Communist Party Thugs and their allies in the Students Islamic Movement of India and the Jamaat-e-Islami Hind that are NOT reported by the news media?) is nothing more than a media blood libel against the Hindus.


<quote>
With attitudes like that, you dream of becoming a world intellectual leader
</quote>

No, only for Hindus to live at least in one country where they are free from persecution. Not the case anymore. Hindus and Sikhs are the only people in the world with no state backing of their faith.

<quote>
except that no one in the country really follows it
</quote>

And that justifies killing them en masse, does it Mr Aurangzeb?

Go to the villages and non-major cities and drive away the evils of caste The RSS is one of the largest anti-Caste volunteer groups in India. The only reason why they are villified is because the upper-caste dominated socialist troll army that is the Indian media and intelligentsia wants to preserve the caste system, just replace "upper caste" with "party member", "lower caste" with "proletariat" and dharmashastra with the communist manifesto. Communism IS casteism. Look at the caste systems in Soviet Russia, Communist China, and autocratic North Korea. To fight Communism IS to fight Casteism.

Re:why bother?

[metlin]

Freedom of speech in a civilized world...wow!! what constitutes a civilized world??

Ahh, the academic's ace of using subjective contexts to arbitrarily define things. What, indeed, constitutes a civilized world? Why, any place where the fundamental human rights and dignity can be preserved and upheld - you know, democracy, liberty, equality, freedom of speech and things like that. Generally speaking, any place where (broadly) the basic human rights can be upheld, such as -

• Security rights that prohibit crimes such as murder/"enforced" involuntary suicide, massacre, torture and rape
• Liberty rights that protect freedoms in areas such as belief and religion, association, assembling and movement
• Political rights that protect the liberty to participate in politics by expressing themselves, protesting, participating in a republic
• Due process rights that protect against abuses of the legal system such as imprisonment without trial, secret trials and excessive punishments
• Equality rights that guarantee equal citizenship, equality before the law and nondiscrimination
• Welfare rights (also known as economic rights) that require the provision of, e.g., education, paid holidays, and protections against severe poverty and starvation
• Group rights that provide protection for groups against ethnic genocide and for the ownership by countries of their national territories and resources

Or if you want a particularly rigorous definition, look up the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As of today's international laws and agreements (many of which that India is a signatory to, if I may remind you), any place where these rights exist and are upheld are defined as "civilized" and any place where they are trampled upon is generally agreed to be not-quite civilized.

America or may be u have Denmark in ur mind for their anti-muslim cartoons.

Well, to be fair, these two countries do have a fairly good record of human rights practices than large parts of the world, India included. And one of those rights is the freedom of speech, which is what the cartoons depict. Anything wrong in that?

Freedom is speech should only be practiced if it doesn't hurt anyone.

Actually, no. The idea of freedom of speech is that you should be able to speak freely, but the consequences will be yours to face (i.e. it maybe unwise, but discrimination because you speak your mind would be unacceptable). It's a subtle difference.

Just think of a situation...someone comes to u in ur office and uses slangs against u....what will u do? Will u say that "hey it's ok...it is the freedom of speech what he is practicing"?? And if u say so, u r different from most of the people...and it is those very same most of the people who determine the consequences of freedom of speech.

Hold on. Uses *slangs*? Do you even know what a slang is? I think you probably meant slander. And by definition, slander (or libel) lets the victim seek retaliation because it's intentional defamation. For instance, I can say that you speak *like* a pig, and that would be a subjective opinion. However, I cannot that you had sex with a pig, because it is defamatory and I would need evidence to show that you indeed did have sex with a pig. It is a subtle difference. Similarly, you are more than welcome to walk into my office and say that I smell like a baboon and cuss like a sailor, however you may *NOT* say that I had sex with a baboon and cussed my boss (unless you had evidence to show that I did either, of course).

If Thackeray speaks anything anti-muslim, he is also wrong because it hurts many others. I would say, be practical.

Re:why bother?

[metlin]

Did you read the link that his signature pointed to?

It was some foam-at-the-mouth idiot (quite like you, if I might add) who made that statement because the above poster was trying to speak rationally.

*shakes head and walks away*

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

well, to summarize ur comment, most of the rights what u talked abt also comes with development of a country and India is still developing. Compared to before, the situation has changed significantly now and it would continue in future as well. All the things needed to constitute a civilized world according to ur definition will also be achieved in future...it's just a matter of time. By the way, better u revise ur idea of security rights (any idea how many ppl r killed in gun shootouts in USA every year??) and equality rights (u know, black ppl and white ppl kind of racism) in those so called civilized world.

The freedom of speech...hmmm...so u say that whatever were published there in Danish newspapers were freedom of speech?? If u say so, why the hell u ppl dont talk abt holocaust....most of the European countries, and perhaps USA as well, restricts the "denial of holocaust" by law. Where does ur freedom of speech go then?? Few months ago, when the Iranian president was organizing a debate on if the holocaust really happened, how may of European governments had decried abt it??

The idea of freedom of speech is that you should be able to speak freely, but the consequences will be yours to face

No, if u r nobody, it doesn't matter much what u speak because no one listens to u. But if it comes to a well-known public figure or a group widely visible to others, the consequences are not confined only to an individual. It use to have a much wider effect and special care must be taken in such circumstances and that is what Shiv Sena is doing. Although, as I said before, I support their campaign having objective of filtering out the orkut from those groups involved in anti-religious or anti-nation activities, but not their way of violence.

They say that they support is "morally" only but the reality is something else what is not needed to be mentioned explicitly. Huh? I have no idea what you just said. English, please?

Pakistan say that the support they are providing to the Kashmiri militants and only moral support and they are not involved in any other kind of support to the militants. However, reality is different. Everyone knows that the militants are getting trained in Pakistan and, afterwards, infiltrate into Indian territory to carry out violent acts. And this reality needed not to be mentioned explicitly. If you would have read the sentence properly, u could have understood it if ur head is not empty. And that IS English by the way.

Here on this forum, ppl hardly care about perfection of English. Sometimes, even editors have been pointed out of making mistakes while posting some article on Shashdot. Just to remind u, writing "u" instead of "you" is not the symbol of being educated or not. What to write where depends on the circumstances. I also write "you" in formal documents. But mostly I write "u" on forums or other informal situations because it is more efficient and the idea is well conveyed. Better you look at the fact that why humans are better than machines, even if machines can do more precise work than human in many cases (printing for example). It is all about efficiency, which u didnt seem to understand. And yes, writing "u" IS well perceived, doesnt matter if u agree upon it or not. The cases what u mentioned, like books dont write "u" etc etc, are very formal situations. Those r indeed necessary. However, I am sure that even those very same judges or editors of those very same books, also understand what does "u" mean if used in a sentence. This forum is not a formal place like a court-room or a book where all the formalities should be practiced necessarily.

I said idealist because by saying idealist, I mentioned both of his remarks, namely, "practicing freedom of speech" and "use of 'u' instead of 'you'". If I would have used "perfectionist" instead of "idealist", it would have referred only to the issue of usage of "u". Try to understand the core issue of a comment instead of following only words....u can come up with better arguments if u read between lines.

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

I am now 100% sure that u didnt understand the overall issue of this whole discussion. Read the whole thread "carefully"....not only words, rather try to read between lines as I said before also. If u cant get it even after that, ask someone to knock on ur head and ask if it sounded like something hollow....I am sure his answer would be "yes".

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

> Where was this Indian Media when 2 million Hindus were slaughtered by the Pakistani government in 1971?

Here's the thing. What Idi Amin and co did are a matter of the historical record. Which is why the world has a word for them -- psychotic monsters. It does NOT excuse what Thackeray is doing now, because he's not helping solve the problem in any way ... he's just creating new ones.

> And that justifies killing them en masse, does it Mr Aurangzeb?

If your reply to everything is "they're killing Hindus, so we can retaliate any way we can", you're more brainwashed with RSS propaganda than I thought. First, some facts: Hindus aren't facing an existential threat in India. They're doing just fine. But even if they were, then the solution would be to go and fight where there really is a problem, not go about creating trouble where there is none.

> Look at the caste systems in Soviet Russia, Communist China, and autocratic North Korea.

With that you've crossed into the land of the delusional. All societies have _class_ systems. India's problem is a rigid _caste_ system.

> The RSS is one of the largest anti-Caste volunteer groups in India.

I know about the RSS' anti-caste work. What's more, I support it. But it doesn't seem to have much effect, does it? Even the BJP doesn't have an anti-caste political manifesto. Here's why: Hindus are not worried about your imagined Islamic+Communist threats. Says a lot about your fears, doesn't it? They're more fearful about what people of other castes -- other Hindus -- will do to them.

That, in a nutshell, gives the lie to the RSS' painting of Islam+Communists as "the enemy". From my posting history you can see I don't like either radical Muslims or Communists of any sort very much. But neither do I like radical Hindus. The RSS *could* have taken the opportunity to become a positive force for change and campaign to end the caste system. Instead it chose to exaggerate threats for cheap political ends.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

> most of the European countries, and perhaps USA as well, restricts the "denial of holocaust" by law.

Get your facts right before you argue. The US does NOT restrict "the denial" of holocaust. Neither do all countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust denial -- some do, and it's wrong of them to have such laws.

But it's very interesting that a rabid Hindu chauvinist like you seeks inspiration from Islamic radicals and Ahmadinejad. Shows what you really are better than anything I could say.

> Here on this forum, ppl hardly care about perfection of English. Sometimes, even editors have been pointed out of making mistakes while posting some article on Shashdot.

Yes, and they're ridiculed mercilessly for their mistakes. Unlike most other forums, this one cares A LOT about good English. I only wish you had a +5 rating so that more people saw your comment and told you exactly what they thought of it. Of course, typing "u" and "r" isn't about good English, is it. It's more about whether you've the mental maturity of a 13-year-old. And going by the arguments in your comments, you don't even have that.

> Try to understand the core issue of a comment instead of following only words

Here's the problem. Your argument has no core. You're essentially saying your justification for creating trouble where none created before is that other people are doing worse things elsewhere. (If that is the case, go there and fight the problem, don't create new troubles.) And oh, we're asking you (nicely!) to improve your writing because your words are pretty hard to follow! (So much for the "Indians speak good English" myth.)

And oh, you talk about "efficiency"? If writing proper English is such an effort to you, then you ought to be really concerned about your future in the workplace. Unless of course, your job is being webmaster for the Shiv Sena.

Here's your greatest hits, btw:

* It seems that u r having more violent character than those "so called" Shiv Sena type people
* If u r referring to someone else's comment which is violent in nature, is equivalent to the fact that ur nature synchronize with that of the link.
* No, I would not be calling for ur head. Instead, I would have been telling u personally to keep ur head cool down and with ur cool-head
* It did nothing but confirmed my guess about ur shitheadness.
* Just think of a situation...someone comes to u in ur office and uses slangs against u....what will u do?
* some ppl use shortened words, like "u" instead of "you", to fasten their speed
* However, what my understanding is, is using "u" instead of "u" or "r" instead of "are" r well perceived by the people and therefore should not be pointed out specifically.
* Better you look at the fact that why humans are better than machines

Thanks for the entertainment! I really did think that people who spoke like Apu were an American TV stereotype. Thanks for showing me they are real!

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

Great quote! That's exactly the reason I think Richard Dawkins is a bit over the top with his missionary-atheism approach. A world where everything could be explained would be a very boring world indeed (not to mention currently impossible -- we know too little).

However, the problem is that too many religious nutcases take these stories to be the literal truth. That's how you get creationism and ID. And in Hinduism's case, it's how it got a rigid caste system, Suttee and the beef-taboo.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply to this basket-case. Frankly this guy's intellectual bankruptcy doesn't surprise me -- it's pretty much a reflection of the intellectual bankruptcy of the RSS and friends, and the political class in general.

Re:why bother?

[808140]

Hm... I guess my new IQ-test program will need to store IQ scores as a signed integer, after all.

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

i dont think i shud keep wasting my time in replying u...if u think u r justified with whatever u think, go ahead. but bear in mind that ground realities is much different that whatever shit u utter.

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

and if u r pointing out my bad english, there are many many places where people dont speak english and that is not the criterion for anything. look at the countries, e.g. Japan, where ppl dont speak english but are much better than many english speaking countries and it is many pro-english assholes like u who think english is a "necessary" thing for, say, development.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

Yup, the "ground reality" definitely is that India is full of people like you, who can't form a coherent argument to save their lives, and who instead resort to foul language and violence to compensate for their impotence. India is doomed to remain a third-world hell-hole thanks to such brilliant minds as you.

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

India also doesnt need ppl like u who sit there overseas(I guess I am correct) and keep criticizing it after reading biased pro-western news. We do not need ur suggestion on what should we do and what sound we not. We know how to proceed with things and better sit there and keep ur mouth shut and try to get incorporated into the local society there, on behalf of whom r have spoken so much and in return, they dont care even to spit on u.

Re:why bother?

[Aliriza]

Religion is a part of this but mostly it is about power and gainin control. Religion is strong and generally not criticized and people use it to reach their own aims. It has always been like that.

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

> there are many many places where people dont speak english

Yes, but that is no excuse for you writing like a 6-year old. If you wrote Hindi, or Tamil, or Marathi, and wrote like this, you'd face the same opprobrium.

And oh, the Japanese success didn't come overnight. Japan was poorer than India for a very long time. They made their language and culture what it is today by working very hard and creating a world-class economy that is rich enough to support higher education and technical work in Japanese.

And oh, Japanese extensively borrows English words, especially for technical and Western concepts, whether it is Ingarisu Mafin (English muffins, note that the Japanese language tends to avoid Ls and combined consonants) or garufurendo (girlfriend) or cheez-uh (cheese, spoken when taking a photograph), to give just 3 of countless examples. That's the biggest difference between the Japanese and you: they're not afraid of change or other cultures, and take from other cultures to enrich their own. Whereas you are actually have an inferiority complex about your own culture and hide behind a semi-Nazi tradition of "cultural purity".

> many pro-english assholes like u who think english is a "necessary" thing for, say, development.

A lot of "assholes" are pro-English because it's something that unites India. What should Indians speak instead as a lingua franca? Hindi? Why? I know a lot of Tamils and Bengalis who'd object (I know the Shiv Sena already has an anti-South Indian campaign on in Bombay, perhaps they could start against Bengalis too -- in fact why don't they start against every Indian who doesn't speak Marathi, that way you'd have a pure Marathi-speaking India).

Or, if you really feel bad about English, why don't you try and enrich an Indian language of your choice to the level where high-level technical work (to give just one example) can be done with it. I'm sure lots of Marathas or Tamils would love to study Engineering or Computer Science in Marathi or Tamil. Oh wait, in reality they aren't -- most of them are clamouring for English education to the point where every one of the political leaders children go to English-medium schools. Why? For that matter, did you do your Bachelors degree in English? If so, why? Did you perhaps feel that your growth would adversely affected if you didn't? Why then do you seek to deny others the same advantage?

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

Actually, I'm not criticizing India. I'm criticizing incoherent blabbermouths like you who give India a bad name and spoil her chances at becoming a developed, modern country. But of course, your ego has developed to the point where you think you speak for all of India, that anyone who disagrees with you is un-Indian. An excellent demonstration of fascism in the making.

Re:why bother?

[Builder]

Oh gods how I wish I had mod points... But you still owe me a new keyboard!

Re:why bother?

[metlin]

I second that! Oh boy.

Re:why bother?

[bladesjester]

You've got the same thing with a lot of the people who claim that religion is stupid but science is everything. They're the kind of people that take working theories as laws and try to shoehorn data to fit their current scope because they think the theories could never be wrong.

A lot of them think that their scientific heroes were all staunch men of science who eschewed any sort of religion when the truth is that a lot of the famous scientists, like Einstein, were actually quite strong in their faith. It's just that their faith may not have been one of the "mainstream" religions.

As for intelligent design, to play devils advocate, who says just one side or the other has to be right? As in most things, both sides of the debate are often right on some things and wrong on others. I've seen things where you have to stop and wonder if something wasn't giving events a bit of a nudge in a certain direction.

Sometimes after the statistically impossible happens and you're still standing instead of being in a hole in the ground, you think about what just happened, chuckle, say "thank you," and continue with your life. It doesn't mean that you have to think everything is laid out in advance; just that something, somewhere might have a plan for some of the finer details.

Re:why bother?

[metlin]

well, to summarize ur comment, most of the rights what u talked abt also comes with development of a country and India is still developing. Compared to before, the situation has changed significantly now and it would continue in future as well. All the things needed to constitute a civilized world according to ur definition will also be achieved in future...it's just a matter of time.

Being civilized is something that has to come from within. Stop blaming it on the development of your country. Countries with far less culture and freedom than India have become more civilized in less time than we've had. Then again, as long as people like you abound, I doubt it's going to happen any time soon.

By the way, better u revise ur idea of security rights (any idea how many ppl r killed in gun shootouts in USA every year??) and equality rights (u know, black ppl and white ppl kind of racism) in those so called civilized world.

Okay, the number of people dying in shootouts in the US is probably one hundredth (or less) of the number of people that die in hit-and-runs in India. If you want to talk numbers, I can assure you that even taking the population into account, man for man, the number of violent deaths in India is way more. And FYI - people have been equal in this country for a long, long time. The racism that you speak of exists in extremely small pockets and is caused by a handful of idiots, much like the Shiv Sena. And you know, just take the number of people dead in the Gujarat riots and the kind of crap that Narendra Modi and others pulled and compare that with the numbers here in the US - the numbers will tell you something about racism.

The freedom of speech...hmmm...so u say that whatever were published there in Danish newspapers were freedom of speech?? If u say so, why the hell u ppl dont talk abt holocaust....most of the European countries, and perhaps USA as well, restricts the "denial of holocaust" by law. Where does ur freedom of speech go then?? Few months ago, when the Iranian president was organizing a debate on if the holocaust really happened, how may of European governments had decried abt it??

Yes. What the Danish newspapers published *was* freedom of speech. I can show Allah with a bomb in his head, I can show Krishna as a pimp and I can show Jesus as a rabid baby-killing monster. It is my right to do so, because as a sovereign *citizen* I have the freedom to express my thoughts. Now, very few countries have banned talking about the holocaust - and that is wrong. And in most of them, it is only the denial of the holocaust that is wrong (which falls into denying history, which is remarkably different from freedom of speech, if I might add). But either way, I think what they are doing is wrong, too. What is your point? Just because a handful of countries make stupid mistakes (because millions died) does not mean you should do the same thing - you are both wrong and you are both mistaken.

No, if u r nobody, it doesn't matter much what u speak because no one listens to u.

Shows your ignorance. Go to Rashtrapati Bhavan and call for Manmohan Singh's head and let's see how long you last. Or go to Kashi and say some nasty things about some Indian god. Or maybe, go to Amritsar and say some no-so-nice things about Guru Gobind Singh. How about going to Meerut and saying no-so-nice things about Allah? Let's see how things work out for you.

But if it comes to a well-known public figure or a group widely visible to others, the consequences are not confined only to an individual. It use to have a much wider effect and special care must be taken in such circumstances and that is what Shiv Sena is doing. Although, as I said before, I support their campaign having objective of filtering out the orkut from those groups involved in anti-religious or anti-nation activities, but not their way of violence.

Okay, get this into your head. Th

Re:why bother?

[bheer]

I don't believe that religion is stupid, merely wrong on a number of levels. Religion is one of mankind's oldest attempts at social engineering, at creating social value-systems. To that extent it is useful. However, when religion seeks to explain the world it is at its weakest, because dogma always comes in the way.

And anyone who accepts (or rejects) faith because of someone else's choices (whether that someone else is Einstein or the Pope) is being silly, IMHO. One's faith, or lack of it, or degree of lack of it, is deeply personal.

That said, I do understand where you're going with non-mainstream faith. A human who is not awed by something, who does not feel the touch of the numinous, is probably a machine at heart. Personally speaking, what awes me is the notion that we may never know what lies outside the boundary of our Universe (if it is indeed a closed system), nor why it exists in the first place, whether it was created by some other entity, and so on. In my case, I need to at least consider the existence of a creator, but I know other atheists _can_ feel the numinous, can appreciate the aesthetic beauty of nature, etc, without needing to credit a divine agency for it.

> As for intelligent design, to play devils advocate, who says just one side or the other has to be right?

It sounds like a pretty binary question to me. Either some portion of the universe is ID'd or it isn't. Where's the middle ground?

As for ID -- it well be right, but the evidence presented doesn't hold water. If the Universe is intelligently designed (say a watchmaker-type God who designed the Universe and set it in motion, or a God who seeded the Universe with panspermia) then it is at a level more subtle than designing an eye or designing man or creating a tree. We don't have the evidence to prove it right or wrong, so it remains an unprovable hypothesis right along with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

> I've seen things where you have to stop and wonder if something wasn't giving events a bit of a nudge in a certain direction.

The human mind often forms patterns when there is none. Lots of things happen at random, and also simply because of things we don't know about. Consider the guy who learned Icelandic in a week -- his smarts apparently came after a childhood epileptic attack. Even today, that sounds miraculous. But a miracle is really something you don't know enough about-- if you did, it wouldn't be a miracle, just as heart transplants would sound like sorcery to a caveman.

> Sometimes after the statistically impossible happens and you're still standing instead of being in a hole in the ground, you think about what just happened, chuckle, say "thank you,"

Actually, that's survivorship bias. If you were blasted away, could you have said thank you? Again, you give far too much credit to randomness. Also, statistically impossible != impossible.

Re:why bother?

[metlin]

Oh no problem. Intellectual bankruptcy? Please, that is such a loaded phrase. Perhaps you meant sheer stupidity? :)

It's quite sad, I will say that.

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

I am also not interested in wasting my time in keep replying u...but I have a last question, did u ask anyone to knock ur head? If yes, how did it sound like?

Re:why bother?

[metlin]

Can't conduct a conversation without ad hominem attacks, eh?

Re:why bother?

[freakxx]

wow!! so both of u think that u r some kind of intelligent guys having every kind of all the ideas and so and so...and that ppl in india shud follow whatever crap u guys speak....u know, u didnt take care of anyone (to be frank)...I have more important things to do instead of keep carrying on with ultimate assholes like u both....whatever reasonings u and ur mate gave, can very easily be argued out....but well, as I said before, have many important things to do. And finally abt my English, I also used to have much better English than what I am having now...am living in a non-english speaking country from last 3 years and that's why it is getting worse and worse....but I think that is not a problem at all. I have friends from many countries, including Europeans and they also dont speak fluent English...but non of them are ashamed of that....It is only our Indian friends, like u two, who feel that English is a must and every one must know "good" English anyhow. Keep this pro-English attitude up and keep taking proud upon their deeds, even if they wont let you mix into themselves, doesn't matter what extent u be a pro-English. Good luck!!

Re:why bother?

[metlin]

wow!! so both of u think that u r some kind of intelligent guys having every kind of all the ideas and so and so...

Umm, thank you for telling us what we should be thinking of ourselves. I'd never have known without your help and approval.

and that ppl in india shud follow whatever crap u guys speak....

I do not particularly recall saying any such thing, but hey, why not. If you are attacking me personally, you can always make things up. In fact, I am the last person to TELL anyone what to do. The whole idea is that I do not want ANYONE to be told what they should be doing - you know? That freedom of speech thing?

u know, u didnt take care of anyone (to be frank)...

Excuse me? Who should I be "taking care" of? I mean, my family is here in the US with me and they have been very well taken care of, thank you very much. I have a startup in India which is contributing to the Indian economy. And as a non-resident Indian, I invest in the Indian economy through the stock market. Back home, I have done work for the Department of Space, doing research that helped the country. What have you done, my good sir? How many Indians have you employed? How much money have you contributed to the economy? How much research have you done that's helped India? What are *your* contributions?

I have more important things to do instead of keep carrying on with ultimate assholes like u both....

Ooh, abusive. Let's abuse everyone we disagree with, good job.

whatever reasonings u and ur mate gave, can very easily be argued out....but well, as I said before, have many important things to do.

Sure you do. Because you would rather back off than argue, right? Quite obviously, you arguments are so amazing that we are all laughing our collective asses at your stupidity.

And finally abt my English, I also used to have much better English than what I am having now...am living in a non-english speaking country from last 3 years and that's why it is getting worse and worse....but I think that is not a problem at all.

Who says it has anything to do with English? It has everything to do with *language*. Like the other poster indicated, back home, if you were speaking any Indian language the way you speak English, people would have shaken their heads and walked away. In fact, my girlfriend is not even an Indian but she tries to speak my language correctly, with proper grammar and spellings.

I have friends from many countries, including Europeans and they also dont speak fluent English...but non of them are ashamed of that....

Well, because if everyone jumps off the well so will you. And oh, maybe you should ask your friends what the language of business of their country is. My German and Swedish friends speak excellent German and Swedish, and their English is definitely better than anything you speak.

It is only our Indian friends, like u two, who feel that English is a must and every one must know "good" English anyhow. Keep this pro-English attitude up and keep taking proud upon their deeds, even if they wont let you mix into themselves, doesn't matter what extent u be a pro-English.

Actually, like I said, whatever it is that you do, you ought to do a good job of it. If this forum were in German and if you were writing German that was grammatically incorrect, with bad spellings, I would have corrected that, as well. Ditto for Hindi or any other language. This is a forum that uses the English language, so use good English. It's as simple as that.

*shrug*

Good luck!!

Why, thank you! That's the nicest thing you've said all day. Good luck to you as well. I hope some day you get a real education and stop being so stupid. Because luck is about the only thing that's going to help you now, given your attitude and what not.

Re:why bother?

[Bastard of Subhumani]

Life requires balance.

That's why I assume that 2 + 2 = 3 half the time, and the rest of the time it's 5. Seriously, spare us the homespun Zen-lite woowoo philosophy.

"Yes, you can call it that. Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious. "

One, he's only religious by his rather non-standard definition of the word. Two, it's an argument from authority, which is a fallacy.

Are you *kidding* me?

[metlin]

Shiv Sena? RSS? Those guys are a bunch of nutjobs.

These are the same who vandalize flower shops on Valentine's Day and threaten couples if they are seen doing anything they consider "obscene" in public.

Personally, I think that these guys need to have a good drink and need to get laid a little.

Orkut is used by many destructive elements to spread canards about India, Hindus, our gods and cultural heritage

I thought it was all about tolerance and forgiveness and all those good things? Pursuit of truth and enlightenment? No? I guess it doesn't quite have the same ring as terrorizing innocent people and flauting your ideologies about.

Jerks.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Omkar]

You've pretty much got it. The Shiv Sena and RSS are Hindu chauvinist thugs that aren't taken seriously by anyone educated. Imagine someone like Jerry Falwell in a country as chaotic and mob-ruled as India (I've lived in India for a while and LOVE it, but this is hard to deny).

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[jcr]

It doesn't take schooling to know a thug when you see one.

-jcr

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, "Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena" is supposedly a student body, and a rich source of young idiots, many of whom later join the Shiv Sena. Let's just say that in educated circles, you don't brag about being affiliated with them. For example, it's very seldom that you will see someone doing well in school being a part of such groups.

Personally, I think that these guys need to have a good drink and need to get laid a little.

I trust they get enough of that. However, they need to get a little education and a job so that they have something useful to do. More often than not, people seem to be drawn towards the Shiv Sena and their student wings purely to establish an identity for an otherwise aimless and pointless existence. I personally did not care for being told I couldn't buy roses on Valentine's day. (in case it's still not clear, I hate those f*****g bottom-dwelling scum-feeding brainless bastards)

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[digTro]

The Shiv Sena and RSS are Hindu chauvinist thugs that aren't taken seriously by anyone educated.
Unfortunately, that isn't the case always. RSS and their likes have some very strong student unions who actively campaign in many colleges and people do join them. Its usually these students who are sent to do low level vandalizing (like disrupt Valentine's day celebrations, thrash Internet cafes).

Also there are many people (highly educated, mind you), who I know, support this censorship. It basically comes down to not being able to ignore badmouthing. No one is gets hurt when someone writes some inflammatory things on some website. But people chose to get insulted and they are happy that Shivsena and RSS are fighting the "fight" for them.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[sanman2]

Shiv Sena? RSS? Those guys are a bunch of nutjobs. These are the same who vandalize flower shops on Valentine's Day and threaten couples if they are seen doing anything they consider "obscene" in public.

That's overblown -- the origin of Shiv Sena is due to local Maharashtrian culture having been swamped by influx from every other part of the country -- a unique burden that Maharashtrians have to bear.

As for RSS, they were created not out of theological compulsions, but as a backlash to Islamic activism -- not so unfounded considering that ethnic group split the country.

Personally, I think that these guys need to have a good drink and need to get laid a little.

Gee, you're so cool for saying that. Spend all night thinking that up?

I thought it was all about tolerance and forgiveness and all those good things? Pursuit of truth and enlightenment? No? I guess it doesn't quite have the same ring as terrorizing innocent people and flauting your ideologies about.

I'm an atheist, but I'll say that with freedom comes responsibility. Yes, these groups have on occasion gone overboard in protesting what they misguidedly feel is social decay. At least they don't fly aircraft into skyscrapers, like some people. Whole different order of magnitude. Meanwhile, the Left on the other hand is happy to promote social decay and stoke disharmony to milk votes.

Btw, it's "flaunting" not "flauting", Mr Enlightenment.

Jerks.

Oh, the vit. Vodda put down! Vayy to go! :P

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[jb.cancer]

You've pretty much got it. The Shiv Sena and RSS are Hindu chauvinist thugs that aren't taken seriously by anyone educated. Well, that really *is* the point. What percentage of the population in india is really educated? and of that how much really don't care of the crap that is 'someone insulted my God'. i know of really well-qualified people who get into a frenzy over religion.

In such a scenario, it's easy for thugs like the shiv sena to make news and raise an up roar. hopefully sense will prevail (but then we've seen worse).

P.S. if your God is really supreme, wtf is the logic in saying that He/She can be offended or insulted by mere sucking mortals? if there really is a God, this wud look just comic. Go fix the real problems, God can take care of himself.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Omkar]

You're preaching to the choir, my friend.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Bastard of Subhumani]

Have you called tech support recently?

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Scaba]

Very subtle and very amusing. Well done.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[the_masked_mallard]

Nobody educated supports them ?? WFT is that supposed to mean ? The Shiv Sena recently won the municipal elections in Mumbai. The RSS has thousands of shakhas (branches) all over the country. The BJP, which is closely related to the RSS is in power in many states of India. If you look at the voting patterns, people in cities tend to support the BJP.

Are you trying to say that someone who supports them is not educated ? I was thinking all along that India was a democracy and we could vote for whichever party we wanted to; but apparently we need to take the permission of educated leftists like you before we poor illiterate natives cast our vote.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[madtantric]

Oh ya they are bit overboard. But if RSS did not exist the Christhian evangelical terrorists & the Islamic jehadi terrorists would have finished off India. They provide the much required balance.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[king-manic]

That's overblown -- the origin of Shiv Sena is due to local Maharashtrian culture having been swamped by influx from every other part of the country -- a unique burden that Maharashtrians have to bear.

As for RSS, they were created not out of theological compulsions, but as a backlash to Islamic activism -- not so unfounded considering that ethnic group split the country.

No culture has any innate right to exist. Culture is simply a secondary trait of large groups of people. If a culture is diminishing then either it had to shape up to survive or it fades away. A good sign of a dying culture is this type of fascist/nationalist thuggery. It means rational options for maintaining the culture are not available. It also tend to make enemies further speeding this up. I have nothing against Hindu's and form the sounds of things "real" Hindu's dislike these people and their tactics every bit as much as I do. A culture that needs violence to prop it up is likely in danger of being washed away by the sands of time and no one will shed a tear for it.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Omkar]

No, I was saying that almost all educated people don't support them. The BJP is quite closely related to the RSS, but it's quite possible to support one and not the other.

It's interesting that you call me an antidemocratic leftist, since I'm actually mildly libertarian. I don't think that anyone who supports the RSS is uneducated - uncivilized and barbaric would be a more accurate way of putting it, and these, although hopefully reduced by education, by no means require a lack of it. Just because India is a democracy doesn't mean violent and bigoted political parties should be given a free pass.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Omkar]

It helps, though. Education - even the very nationalist Indian curriculum - is supposed to expose you to new ideas and this, hopefully, makes it easier to spot bigoted thugs. The problem with the uneducated in India is that they get taken for a ride by politicians who encourage them to vote based on caste, religion, and unworkable promises. There's also a weird cult mentality; political parties are almost like gangs. Hell, when a movie star was kidnapped near Banaglore a few years ago, his fans caused enough trouble that the city basically shut down for a few weeks (I did enjoy having school off though).

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[The Cydonian]

They've vandalized far greater things than merely cybercafes. A 1906 copy of Sanacharya's commentary on the Vedas, for one.

Speaking as someone who's an astika and follows Advaita, I've long held the view that Shiv Sena is a bunch of goons who will attack and vandalize anything they see, without really bothering to even think about it. Nothing they've done so far has led to change my views even a little.

I suppose the only thing there to see is if the DoE would succumb to the 'pressure' and actually block Orkut (it's possible, trust me), or, if the Internet Cafe Association of India (or whatever their organization calls itself) organizes itself, and throws up a counter bandh to protest these mofos.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[the_masked_mallard]

Well in India, most of the opposition to RSS comes from ppl with a commie bent of mind with total disregard for Hinduism. The kind who would hold demonstrations with Islamists to protest against Saddam's hanging, but never say a word to support the Kashmiri Hindus was have been driven out of their homeland by terrorists.

As far as violent and bigoted parties are concerned, I dont think that we have much choice in India. The ruling Congress party engineered riots against Sikhs in Delhi in 1984. Their Communist allies have a well-oiled election machinery which helps them win election after election. They were behind the massacre of farmers protesting land acquistion in Nandigram and Singur in WB. What pisses me off this is selective condemnation ... BJP-RSS bad, Congress and Left good. Although we are talking about Shiv Sena here, the media in India is highly biased against the right. For example, just look at the coverage of an encounter killing in Gujarat where the victim happened to be Muslim. Such things happen in the Congress-ruled Maharashtra all the time, but it only makes the news when it happens in a BJP ruled state with a Muslim victim. Main-stream Indian media is to be taken with a pinch of salt in most matters.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[XchristX]

..Speaking as a Brahmo Samaaji , I've long held the same views that you have about the Shiv Sena. After all, the media and polity have bashed the Shiv Sena so much so that it is impossible to not hate them after watching the selection bias reporting of the crap-socialist Indian media.

However, the rise of Islamist terrorism in India, coupled with the systematic ethnic cleansing and genocides of Hindus in Kashmir, Bangladesh, Pakistan and several parts of India proper itself (remember Morichjhanpi, Tripura, Naxalites etc. etc?) have rendered me "a former liberal mugged by reality" (as famous American political visionary Irving Kristol put it). I may not particularly enjoy the Shiv Sena's antics, but they have done a lot to emancipate the poor in Maharashtra (something that the moonbat media never reports, obviously), drastically improved the local infrastructure (a much needed boon in a developing country) and provide a much needed balance against the rising tide of radical Communism and Islamist bigotry that plagues out society. Remember, the essense of a modern democracy is the presence of checks and balances.

I suppose the only thing there to see is if the DoE would succumb to the 'pressure' and actually block Orkut (it's possible, trust me), or, if the Internet Cafe Association of India (or whatever their organization calls itself) organizes itself, and throws up a counter bandh to protest these mofos.
I wonder where your righteous indignation against bans was when the West Bengal government banned Taslima Nasreen's Lajja (Some of her other "banned" books are available online here) because a bunch of Islamist bigots felt that it "insulted Islam"? Or when the government of Andhra Pradesh in South India "banned" the screenings of the Da-Vinci Code becuase a bunch of evangelical Christians got their undies in a tizzy?Were you just as indignated then, or did you not notice because the pro-Islamist/Leftist media in India convenientlyignored reporting about them? Eh?


It is precisely this intrinsic evocation of double standards against Hindus that is the litmus test for anti-Hinduism.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[TorKlingberg]

You sound like a religious fundamentalist.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[0xdeadbeef]

Speaking as someone who believes in nothing, I think it's neat that a nation as pluralistic as India has so many different kinds of right wing kook.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Orkut is used by many destructive elements to spread canards about India, Hindus, our gods and cultural heritage

Orkut has got far too popular in India. I wouldn't be surprised if they are doing this for publicity or if they really care. If they really do care about this, they are out of their minds.
Orkut is crappy anyway. Many things don't work as expected. The "Recent Visitors" is deceptive. It doesn't even work fully in Safari.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate all of those guys. I would smack down the Hindu fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalists, and Christian fundamentalists. If every party in India shows favoritism to some form of fundamentalism, you should create your own party and fix things up.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[JavaIsGreat]

yes and he is a school dropout unlike the graduate ones of India.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[The Cydonian]

After all, the media and polity have bashed the Shiv Sena so much so that it is impossible to not hate them after watching the selection bias reporting of the crap-socialist Indian media.

Of all the mindless rants I read in favour of the Sangh Parivar, I find this point the most perplexing.

First, socialism per se isn't really a problem; it's enshrined in the name of our country, and indeed, is part of our Directive Principles of State Policy. Both are part of the Constitution of India, a tome that binds the Republic and defines us in legalo-moralistic terms. It is also a document that can be changed anytime by elected lawmakers, usually by a two-thirds majority vote; indeed, it is instructive to note that neither the Shiv Sena nor the BJP nor any of their partners saw it fit to change this crucial element from the Constitution, even when they had the power to do so.

You may wonder why. One reason, perhaps, is because the Shiv Sena is in itself socialist in tone. Here's a damning fact that people like you don't realize:- _all_ of BJP/Shiv Sena/TDP/AGP/etc's economic policies _are_ socialist. ALL of them are for public healthcare, universal primary schooling, subsidized tertiary education, government-imposed distribution of food grains, vegetables and so on, and equal and complete governmental participation in roads, telecom, transport, rails and just about every sphere you can think of. Heck, the government is in the business of making condoms for fuck's sake, and none of the parties are actually bothered about it all. Go ahead, read up the Shiv Sena's manifesto.

In fact, it is safe to say that laissez-faire libertarianism that you seem to espouse is, in fact, non-existent, in India, and has been so since the Swatantra Party whithered away into non-existence. All of Indian polity is left-of-center liberal in economic terms; it's just that the Communists are further left of everyone else in la-la land.

Second, most of the Indian media actually stands right of existing Indian polity; the Indian Express, which I was ultimately linking to, is actually in favour of free-market capitalism over and beyond what the BJP says or does.

What really perplexes me the most, though, is your apparent presumption that I consume everything that the media propagates. Tell me, why do you presume I can't think critically?

However, the rise of Islamist terrorism in India, coupled with the systematic ethnic cleansing and genocides of Hindus in Kashmir, Bangladesh, Pakistan and several parts of India proper itself

Does your list on ethnic cleansing in the sub-continent include a certain party that had 'lungi hatao pungi bajao ('Remove the lungi (crude slang for south Indians), save the Pungi (Maharashtrians)') as its slogan?

(remember Morichjhanpi, Tripura, Naxalites etc. etc?)

Morichchappi? In West Bengal? That was a bit unexpected to see in your list, seeing as it is that the rest are about insurgents while this is about the government attacking, and blockading, a settler camp in the Sunderbans. But no, don't bother explaining yourself; your next point has so much batshitinsanity that we'll let this pass.

may not particularly enjoy the Shiv Sena's antics, but they have done a lot to emancipate the poor in Maharashtra (something that the moonbat media never reports, obviously), drastically improved the local infrastructure (a much needed boon in a developing country) and provide a much needed balance against the rising tide of radical Communism and Islamist bigotry that plagues out society. Remember, the essense of a modern democracy is the presence of checks and balances.

Let me take a moment to parse all this.

Right, I'm done. You're arguing that Shiv Sena is a counter to radica

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[LWATCDR]

I think you are making a mistake not taking them seriously. Seems like they very close to the level of the Brown Shirts that not educated person took seriously. Sorry but a country that is as chaotic and mob-ruled as you described with nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles and state of the art fighters scares the crap out of me.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[metlin]

That's overblown -- the origin of Shiv Sena is due to local Maharashtrian culture having been swamped by influx from every other part of the country -- a unique burden that Maharashtrians have to bear.

Umm, another poster expressed the sentiments on how no culture has the innate right to exist better than I ever could have. I will, however, add a few other things. Almost 40% of the people living in Madras are from Andhra Pradesh. Similarly, the actual Tamilian population in Madras is definitely quite low. I believe that there are other parts of India which bear similar problems.

Now, understand this - the idea behind the national integration and related programs was to promote the true integration of India. That means that no culture will remain the same, it would inherently become absorbed into an amalgamated single culture or hybridize itself with other cultures. There is no culture in the world today that has not been inspired or otherwise influenced by any other culture. So, no, it is not a "unique burden that Maharashtrians have to bear" - it is a burden that every culture in the history of civilization has had to bear, through the ages.

As for RSS, they were created not out of theological compulsions, but as a backlash to Islamic activism -- not so unfounded considering that ethnic group split the country.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that India was a secular state, while Pakistan is an Islamic state. So, if anyone thinks that Hindu extremism is the answer to Islamic activism, it is an unfortunate state of affairs. In my mind, both are terror organizations that need to be dealt with accordingly.

Gee, you're so cool for saying that. Spend all night thinking that up?

Actually, no. My Saturday nights have better uses, such as - you know - getting drunk and getting laid.

*shrug*

I'm an atheist, but I'll say that with freedom comes responsibility. Yes, these groups have on occasion gone overboard in protesting what they misguidedly feel is social decay. At least they don't fly aircraft into skyscrapers, like some people. Whole different order of magnitude. Meanwhile, the Left on the other hand is happy to promote social decay and stoke disharmony to milk votes.

There is no difference between the way the two go about things. Like you said, it may be different orders of magnitude, but the fundamental intent's the same. These goons don't have the balls to do what their idealism demands outside of their pockets of support, while the other goons do. And actually, at least those goons seem to believe in what they do, unlike our beloved Shiv Sena and gang who're doing it merely for the sake of being assholes.

Btw, it's "flaunting" not "flauting", Mr Enlightenment.

Spare me the sarcasm, because quite obviously nobody makes the occasional typo.

Oh, the vit. Vodda put down! Vayy to go! :P

Heh. Did you spend the whole night thinking that up?

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[bheer]

> but they have done a lot to emancipate the poor in Maharashtra

Fascism has spread throughout history under a populist garb. The Nazis were supposed to help restore German pride, Mussolini was supposed to make the trains run on time, and so on. Similarly, Scientology has done a lot of good with its anti-drug outreach programs. Ditto the RSS, which is often first on the scene with relief during natural disasters. (So do Christian missionaries, something the RSS is quick to criticize since they have "ulterior motives". Okay. So what's the RSS' ulterior motive?)

None of these good deeds take away an iota of the Sena's or the RSS' intellectual bankruptcy, nor the fact that they are in fact poison for India. If the RSS spent as much energy on eliminating caste as it does tilting at Communist+Islam+Christian windmills, it could be a force for good. Instead, it and its Sena friends are a bunch of stick-in-the-mud traditionalists who missed the memo about Hindu reformation.

So please spare me the litany about how much good the Sena has done. Its fascist tactics speak quite well for themselves.

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[bheer]

> a unique burden that Maharashtrians have to bear.

Hey, if the burden of being in the Indian Union is too much for you, secede. Or try to. It'll be fun watching the tanks march into Bombay.

Or maybe you could get Article 370 imposed on Bombay city. Except-- then the BJP will have a problem come election time because their regular bleat about Article 370 in Kashmir will sound a bit hollow, won't it?

Frankly, Bombayites amuse me no end. You got a ready-made port city handed down to you by the British. Instead of making a Singapore out of it, you let it fester into some of the worst slums in Asia, thanks to inept (nonexistent?) city planning and a corrupt political class. You made no effort to build comparable urban centers across Maharashtra to offset Bombay's load. And then you complain about your unique burden?

News flash: every major city in the world has to deal with immigrant inflows. Most do it better than Bombay.

Stop blaming India's poor for your elected representatives' incompetence, because instead of solving your *real* problems, they think it's a worthwhile use of their time vandalizing net cafes and writing software to censor the internet (which apparently works by blocking anything that says "I hate...").

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[XchristX]

Fascism has spread throughout history under a populist garb. The Nazis were supposed to help restore German pride

The big difference is that the Reich was not fighting any injustice. They completely manufactured claims that they were "oppressed" by Jews and used it as an antisemitic canard against them to try to wipe them out.

The same thing is not the case here, or are the various massacres perpetrated against Hindus by Muslims all over South Asia,from the Talibanized Bangladesh to the Jamaatis in Pakistan, the massacre of Hindus in Marad by Islamists, the open pro-taliban riots by Islamists in Malegaon and bands of Islamic terrorists bombing temples, trains and schools all "Windmills"? Eh?


Besides, if the RSS was so "obsessed with Muslim/Christian/Communist Bashing", why did they rescue poor Muslims during the Surat floods. Why did they rescue Sikhs from massacres perpetrated against them by the Congress Party in 1984 (Read the works of Khushwant Singh praising RSS for it's relief work among Sikhs)? Why did they rescue Muslim children from terrorists in Kashmir? Why do they cooperate with Catholic missions?

During Israel prime Minister Ariel Sharon's visit to India, Leftists and Muslims openly attacked Sharon, called him a "Filthy Jew", and publicly called for re-enacting the holocaust. It was the RSS that welcomed him and helped cement better ties with Israel. Funny how a "Fascist" movement would do that, eh?

Are these the actions of "Fascists"?Oh, yes, these filthy urine drinking Hindu fascists are such cosmic swine that they dare to actually build bridges with the Dalit Community, aggressively champion for their right to worship in temples, and enagage in interfaith dialogue with Muslims and Christians. What filthy Hindu "kuffar" idolater fascists they are!
The terms "Fascism", "Nazism and "Communalism" are much abused terms in India, thanks to the far-left propaganda.They have a distinct connotation in the European context that can hardly apply to the Indian milieu.

The term fundamentalism was first coined in the context of the emergence of the Protestant movement in the Christian church in America in the twenties. The ideology of the RSS and the way in which it is interpreted by the Sangh leaders borrowing modern terminology have no camparison to the sense in which the term fundamentalism was used in America. So also, fascism and Nazism do have distinct meanings in the socio-political contexts that prevailed in Italy and Germany which have no bearing in the Indian context.

Communalism is not at all a part of religion. Communalism is nothing but mobilisation of people on communal lines to serve a specific cause. RSS can, therefore, be said to be communal only in a limited sense. RSS has not committed any acts that could truly be described as fundamentalist, fascist, or communal. In fact, one of the first acts of A B Vajpayee after taking over as Prime Minister last time was to call on Mother Teresa and Delhi Archbishop.
<br>
The socio-political milieu of India offers a fertile ground for the RSS to grow. One admirable aspect of the RSS, is its flexibility to move with the times and to adopt the best from other socio-cultural-religious movements. It learnt the rudiments of social work from the missionary organisations of the church and mass mobilisation techniques from the communists.

RSS has a dedicated and disciplined set of cadres, the simple life style of its pracharaks, the moral teaching it imparts to the younger generation in its daily sakhas, an

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[veeren76]

No he is right.... thats what normally happens...

Re:Are you *kidding* me?

[bheer]

> The big difference is that the Reich was not fighting any injustice.

Funny, a lot of the Nazis thought they were fighting the injustice that was the treat of Versailles that left Germany in penury. For a guy with academic pretensions it's pretty amazing you chose to gloss over this.

> if the RSS was so "obsessed with Muslim/Christian/Communist Bashing", why did they rescue poor Muslims during the Surat floods

The RSS does social work. So does Hamas. We're supposed to be impressed because they're equitable in their aid work, something that every human should be anyway? Doesn't mean Hamas isn't a terrorist organization, or that the RSS isn't a stick-in-the-mud, intellectually bankrupt organization.

I should probably clarify the fascist line here: The RSS doesn't need to be fascist. It has other organizations for that -- the Sena, the VHP, the BVP. This leaves the RSS as a organization for which anything that is "foreign" is evil. According to them, globalisation is imperialistic, India is an agrarian country and is destined to remain so, small shopkeepers (and we're talking push-cart vendors, really) should be protected even at the cost of maintaining inefficiencies in the economy (all these taken from a resolution document on their website). They tend to seize on inequities in current IP law to denounce the entire international system of trade, a case of throwing the baby out of the bathwater if there ever was one.

This flies in the face of international experience (and even India's own experience): every country that freed their economy saw its standard of living rise. Ultimately, the stasist tendencies of the RSS are what doom them, and which is why I use the term intellectually bankrupt for them. No one pretends this growth is uniform or equitable -- human skills are not equally distributed, and some WILL get more than others in a meritocracy. The solution to that (in better implemented models of welfare-state socialism) is a social security net and work training.

The RSS' policy proposals are nothing but a recycled mix of badly-thought-out socialism and Hindu supremacism, each pathetic in itself but especially pathetic together. Nowhere is there anything about petitioning India's obscenely rich temples to coordinate a social security net. Nowhere is there any plans for skills upgradation or work training. Nowhere is there any imaginative thinking on how to eliminate caste, probably _the_ biggest threat to India today.

> So also, fascism and Nazism do have distinct meanings in the socio-political contexts that prevailed in Italy and Germany which have no bearing in the Indian context.

Throughout this thread, you have used high-falutin' language and abtruse academic distinctions to defend your point. Here's the thing: no one's impressed. The words Nazi and Fascist have fairly well-developed meanings even outside of Germany and Italy. Specifically, the "if we don't like what you do, we'll beat you up" tactic the Shiv Sena uses is right up there in fascists' handbook.

> Indian society is in a vicious circle with the majority Hindu community suffering from persecution from the Communists and their new allies in the Islamist cabal in spite of their numerical superiority.

One word: bullshit. As proven time and again with election results, where calls to Hindu pride repeatedly fail to net any votes (the Babri Masjid issue was a better vote-getter when it was actually, um, not demolished, wasn't it?) and caste-based parties win all the polls. Shows you what Hindus really care about.

> One admirable aspect of the RSS, is its flexibility to move with the times

Oh really? That would be good to see. So where are the RSS pracharaks who actually have basic economic knowledge, or who travel to Sweden, Finland, Canada or the US to see how other countries ensure a decent life for their people? It's pretty clear the RSS would rather sit in and wax eloquent about Akhand Bharat's former glories and come up with policies that are destined

In Nationalist India..

[dogbrt]

From TFA:
Phanse said his group was developing a special software that Internet service providers could install to block any message containing certain words and phrases such as "I hate" or "I despise".

I hate to go to work these days #@@$%^@#$.. NO CARRIER

dear sensitive religious types

[circletimessquare]

hindus upset at orkut, muslims upset at muhammed cartoons, christians upset at crosses in pee, etc:

i believe that your religion is strong and powerful and moving

apparently, you don't

for if you did, you would not be so threatened by such random fluff

or, alternately, if these stupid offenses affect you, your religious faith is shallow

you do not honor god/ allah/ shiva/ whomever by being moved by the most contrived of offenses that even a child could shrug off and roll his eyes at

when you do, you make a mockery of what they stand for, by showing that some of your religions followers (you) are of small easily swayed faith

you're a shame to your own religion, and your cheap outrage cheapens your religion

signed,
people with faith and maturity

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[feepness]

hindus upset at orkut, muslims upset at muhammed cartoons, christians upset at crosses in pee, etc:

To be fair... (and I don't really mind crosses in pee, except that I'm not particularly fond of crosses. Or pee for that matter. Probably more fond of pee than crosses though. But only slightly.) But anyways, to be fair, the Christians were objecting to the crosses in pee art being funded by government grants, and therefore circuitously by them. Which I think is reasonable. It really doesn't compare in my mind to the other things.

At the very least a cross in pee is a comment on religion and I'd like the government to stay out of that whole thing on either side.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Gryle]

It's okay to be offended by what you perceive to be a mockery of something you hold dear. What's not okay is taking criminal action towards those who have offended you.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[truckaxle]

christians upset at crosses in pee,

To be fair here the big issue with cross in pee is that it was funded with public funds in the of art.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[SanityInAnarchy]

It's also okay to learn to ignore that mockery. Or, if such mockery is rational, to respond rationally to it.

This not only makes you less likely to take such criminal actions, but it also is likely to reduce your stress and your blood pressure, and teach you a useful skill.

Let me put it this way: I find crap like this to be offensive. But then, I usually have to look for it, and even if it was right there in my face, I only have to close that tab to make it go away. And if I really, really cared, I could go write a thoughtful, intelligent response, instead of a troll (caution: second page is NSFW, due to said troll).

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[suv4x4]

signed,
people with faith and maturity

Wait, I don't remember signing this!

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[dangitman]

But anyways, to be fair, the Christians were objecting to the crosses in pee art being funded by government grants, and therefore circuitously by them.

Oh bullshit. They object to that kind of art, whether it's publicly funded or not. They would outright ban its existence if they could.

If it were about the public funding aspect, then why don't they protest when art that isn't offensive to them is publicly funded?

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[dangitman]

I hate to make three replies on this topic ... but I really would like an answer. So I'll repeat myself - if the problem was all about public funding of the arts, then why did they wait until Piss Christ to protest? It's not like Piss Christ was the first publicly-funded exhibition. And if it was all about public funding, then why the focus on "obscenity" rather than tax dollars?

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[dvNull]

hindus upset at orkut,

Shiv Sena and RSS do not speak for Hindus. In fact most Hindus I have met do not like them and consider them to be little more than thugs with some political power in the city of Bombay. Thats it.

Around 20-30 years ago, they hated non Marathis in Bombay and tried to get rid of south indians in Bombay. They are just a bunch of thugs who don't have much power outside of Bombay.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[feepness]

Oh bullshit. They object to that kind of art, whether it's publicly funded or not. They would outright ban its existence if they could.

If it were about the public funding aspect, then why don't they protest when art that isn't offensive to them is publicly funded?

So what you're saying is, they hate our freedoms?

They get to "object to that kind of art" all they like. That's free speech. But I don't know if this means the majority of christians would ban it's existence. The fact it offended them got them moving, but that doesn't invalidate their complaint. And even if they did want to ban all that kind of art, defenestrate the perpetrators, and erase all mention of its existence... it still doesn't make the fact that the government shouldn't be in the business of propagating things with clear religious symbols on them.

There is a group suing to remove a memorial cross from public land here and the christians are trying to save it. Just because said group is going after a cross doesn't mean they hate all christians and want to ban them.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[DDLKermit007]

Heres the trick none of those religious nutjobs get. The US government at least, does not legally recognize religion in any way, shape, or form. They just get tax exempt, non-profit status. Why is beyond me since almost all of them seem to be raking in the cash like it's nobody's business. Would really take their arguments out from underneath them if religious people could be coherently reasoned with.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Anonymous Coward]

Not "public funding".
Not "obscenity".
"Public funding of obscenity", moron.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Loke the Dog]

Bah, its got nothing to do with religion. Lots of non religious people get offended by people showing symbols such as the hammer and sickle or the swastika. They also get offended by people claiming to feel sexually attracted to children or animals.

Muslims find cartoons of muhammed offensive, agnostics and atheists find cartoons of child pornography offensive. "But nooo", the atheists say, "these things are so different they cannot be compared". But that's because their set of moral values are different from the Muslims.

Respect other peoples morals, or stop shoving your own down the throats of others. You cant do both and still call yourself tolerant.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[mrogers]

To be fair here the big issue with cross in pee is that it was funded with public funds

If the public decides to pay people to engage in unrestrained, free-form self-expression then I have no sympathy if the public is subsequently offended by what it has paid for. Or to put it another way, if they wanted a Hallmark card why didn't they buy a Hallmark card?

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Anonymous Coward]

YUCK! What a pretentious, arrogant twat. Are you really stupid enough to believe your argument or are you just trying to be clever here? Insightful my ass.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Anonymous Coward]

faith and maturity?
well, which one is it? faith or maturity?

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Cheapy]

It's like this. Imagine that someone who used Emacs got multiple copies of vi's source code and proceeded to a) piss on it, b) burn it, c) puncture holes in it, and d) stomped on it a lot.

I can imagine vi-users would be up in arms and the Internet would be in shambles because all the sysadmins would be too busy protesting.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[truckaxle]

You certainly missing the point if think the protest was about publicly-funded art only.

I sure you can see the difference between comparing protests of cartoons of Mohammad to protest of obscene shock art using public funds. If an "artist" wants to create a nativity scene out of his own collected shit then well more power to him, just do it on his own dime.

If the comparison in the grandparent post was between the Da Vinci code movie complaints and the Mohammad cartoons - that would be a fair comparison.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[hlh_nospam]

If your religion requires the use of force, then its message must not be very compelling.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[jtn]

Ignore circletimessquare, he's a famous troll from kuro5hin.org. He thinks his lack of punctuation, bad grammar, and terse one-liners make him appear thoughtful and controversial. He's best left twisting in the wind like other obvious trolls :)

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[CptNerd]

It's the double standard that the people who want publicly funded art apply. Basically, public funding of works that denigrate religions are acceptable ("Piss Christ", the dung-daubed Mary, etc.) but publicly funded pro-religion works (Christmas creches, Menorah, etc.) are to be prohibited and the people who want to display them sued for "separation of church and state" and prevented from "shoving their religion down our throats".

In other words, if I pay my taxes to support art, and am not supposed to be offended by the result, neither should anyone else be offended if I create art that is pro-religion and taxpayer-funded.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[seriesrover]

Absolutely spot on. The grandparent can't have it both ways. If the "[US] public" want separation of Church and State then that should be taken for its all worth, both positive and negative.

You can't say that [tax payer funded] public schools shouldnt use "God" in the oath whilst on the other hand claim First amendment rights for tax payer funded art that denegrades a particular faith.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[seriesrover]

No, the "public" typically don't get to micro-vote to this degree. Whilst not up on the story this sort of decision is usually taken by a small number of officials. More often than not the art crowd has a much liberal leaning stance. I have NO problem with that at all, I just want them to be fair. We would never see gay bashing, racial slurs, male domineering, circus freak art (and quite right too) paid for by tax payer funds. But why is it ok to deeply offend religious groups?

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[smallpaul]

or, alternately, if these stupid offenses affect you, your religious faith is shallow

I am 100% against theocratic attacks on free speech. But at the same time, I don't think your argument makes any sense. Imagine a co-worker downloads a picture of one of your loved ones (especially a child or respected ancestor) and smears it in dung after drawing a Swastika and Hitler mustache on it. Would you say: "Oh, well that wouldn't offend me because my love for that person is so deep." It makes no sense: it is precisely the depth of your emotion that makes the offense so biting. And because your offense if predictable, it is also understandable that you would construe the action as an attack as opposed to a random work of arts and crafts. Does that imply you should kill the offender or burn them in effigy? Of course not. But are you well within your rights to take offense? Yes. Is taking offense understandable? Yes. Does your taking offense indicate that your love is shallow? Not at all.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[expatriot]

I saw the show on the BBC where Sister Wendy was defending the piss Christ BTW. She spoke about how it evoked the humilation of Christ.
Something everyone (except Bill Hicks) seems to have forgotten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[mrogers]

What could separate church and state more effectively than publicly funded blasphemy?

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[dangitman]

... it still doesn't make the fact that the government shouldn't be in the business of propagating things with clear religious symbols on them.

That's not a "fact," it's an opinion.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[dangitman]

You certainly missing the point if think the protest was about publicly-funded art only.

No, I don't. I think it's fairly obvious from my responses that I don't think it's about publicly funded art at all, and rather that it is about shutting down art that people find offensive to their religious sensibilities.

I sure you can see the difference between comparing protests of cartoons of Mohammad to protest of obscene shock art using public funds.

No, I can't. They are both about religious zealots trying to shut down speech they disagree with.

If an "artist" wants to create a nativity scene out of his own collected shit then well more power to him, just do it on his own dime.

Well, Serrano sis create Piss Christ on his own dime. The only public funding involved was in the staging of an exhibition of his work - not the creation of it.

If it is really about separation of church and state, then why are these protestors not protesting the way prayers are held in congress or the White House, or how the President constantly promotes Christianity on the public dime? Why not protests about the public exhibition of pro-religous art?

If the comparison in the grandparent post was between the Da Vinci code movie complaints and the Mohammad cartoons - that would be a fair comparison.

I think the Mohammed comparison is totally fair and valid. It's the exact same thing driving these religious extremists from either religion. They don't give a shit about efficiently spent taxes. They just want to stop "heathen" art.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Das Modell]

Atheism is not a system of morality or ethics, nor is it a religion. There's nothing about atheism that specifically finds child porn in particular to be abhorrent, as opposed to some other things.

There's also a difference between how Muslims and Christians conduct themselves when they are offended. Muslims riot and murder while threatening to behead everyone at the slightest, most trivial provocation, whereas Christians do not. The Ecce Homo exhibition in Sweden did not provoke any violent reactions, despite being displayed in churches. If you did the same in a mosque (not that you'd ever get permission), you'd be killed. You'd probably be in danger if you even suggested it.

It really isn't comparable.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[Das Modell]

Muslims have different beliefs and standards regarding freedom of expression, such as art, and blasphemy. There's nothing abnormal, strange or shameful about a Muslim going violently apeshit when somebody somehow insults his religion. Don't confuse your interpretation of Islam with the real thing. Islam is a deeply insecure religion, so disproportionately violent reactions to criticism and real or imagined insults are to be expected.

Re:dear sensitive religious types

[seriesrover]

Separation of Church and State is not about being anti religious but being neutral, or, devolving oneself of having an opinion one way or the other. One could easily argue that anti-Christian is a pseudo religion in of itself and should not have the backing of tax payers money.

Besides, neither the words "separation" or "church" appear in the Constitution. What DOES appear is freedom of religion - that prohibts Congress from establishing a state sponsored religious ideology.

Forget lawsuits

[WrongMonkey]

I hope that the RIAA doesn't change tactics after hearing about this

Re:Forget lawsuits

[KDR_11k]

Why? That would make shooting them self-defense.

Anyone else have to look up Orkut?

[ChromeAeonium]

Orkut is apparently like MySpace, with forums and the like. Just thought I'd throw that out there, since TFA did such a great job of not saying what it is. Here's the wiki

Re:Anyone else have to look up Orkut?

[dangitman]

See, that changes my whole impression of the story. At first I thought "bad Indian nationalists!" based on the context. But know that I know that they are trying to shut down something like MySpace, I'm all turned around on the issue. MySpace and all of its clones are an evil that must be stopped by any means necessary.

Re:Anyone else have to look up Orkut?

[eclectro]

MySpace and all of its clones are an evil that must be stopped by any means necessary.

Before we get it shut down, maybe somebody could post a link of some cute Hindu girl haterz showing some ankle.

What the hell is Orkut?

[dangitman]

I don't get what's up with journalism these days. I even RTFA, and there was no mention of what "Orkut" is. Even if it is well-known to Indians, then couldn't the slashdot summary give a description, or at least a link to the site?

Are we just supposed to intuitively know what every obscure website on the interweb is about?

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[wizardforce]

Google Orkut... it is a social networking site, a lot like Myspace or Livejournal. Here is the orkut homepage link: www.orkut.com Here is the link to the Wikipedia article about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orkut

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is news for nerds. Everyone who was paying attention in 2004 knows what it is.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[feepness]

This is news for nerds. Everyone who was paying attention in 2004 knows what it is.

Sorry, I like totally spaced that year.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[dangitman]

Why would nerds know about a social networking site? They seem to be the most opposite thing to nerdery possible.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[marsall_banana]

Orkut is hardly obscure, it made the xkcd online communities map: http://xkcd.com/c256.html

Mind you so did Sulawesi

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[chromatic]

Are we just supposed to intuitively know what every obscure website on the interweb is about?

Has the Internet truly destroyed the ability to get out of your chair, walk outside, go to the local library, browse the card catalog, and use the helpful Dewey Decimal System to find a book on a subject you don't know? Some of the best research tools in the world are available at your fingertips--in the library!

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[dangitman]

But it's the job of the journalist to explain the details of the story. Why should I do research because a journalist is too lazy to provide basic facts? Isn't one of the basic things about journalism conveying "Who, What, When, Where, and to a lesser extent, Why?"

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[jovius]

In a strange etymological twist 'orkut' means 'orgasms' in finnish. I think it's no wonder the service is not widely known here either...

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[Conanymous Award]

It's strange that of all the places on teh Intarwebs Slashdot (or at least a part of its readers) is oblivious to Orkut. Or maybe it's just a testimony to the general American unawareness of the rest of the world even on the Net.

You can hardly call Orkut obscure. To put it short, Orkut is the MySpace of the Third World. AFAIK, it first got popular in Brazil and now apparently in India, too. Google bought it a while ago and integrated it to its services.

I've encountered Orkut many times before, even though I don't use it. And yes, "orkut" is also Finnish slang for "orgasms".

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[Conanymous Award]

Well duh, gotta correct myself right away. Google didn't buy Orkut, it was their creation from the beginning.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[evandrofisico]

Orkut is one more "social network" created by a google employee on his "20% time for you projects" on google, an the name is not based on the slang for orgasm, it's the name of it's creator, Orkut Büyükkökten (kinda strange naming one social networking site after yourself, but...)

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[Conanymous Award]

"...the name is not based on the slang for orgasm, it's the name of it's creator, Orkut Büyükkökten (kinda strange naming one social networking site after yourself, but...)"

Thanks, I know. The name means something pleasant and relevant in Turkish (the native country of Orkut Büyükkökten, too lazy to check it on Wikipedia though), so maybe it wasn't a bad idea after all.

Oh well, checked it anyway. "Orkut is an old Turkish word that means "city of happiness, pleasure, joy, luck,". I guess you can call a social networking website that. Minus the fakers and trolls. And people with a taste for horrible layouts, colors, and fonts, of course.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[nomadic]

It's strange that of all the places on teh Intarwebs Slashdot (or at least a part of its readers) is oblivious to Orkut.

Alright, it's ridiculous to assert that Slashdot is somehow oblivious to Orkut just because one slashdot poster characterized it as obscure.

I signed up for orkut a few years ago, but stopped using it when it was shown to be slow and unreliable to the point of ridiculous, something which continued after google bought it. If google doesn't care enough about it to provide a reasonable infrastructure for their own social networking site, then I don't know why anyone else would be willing to use it.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[TheRaven64]

Because it's Google's social networking site, and so got a huge amount of press for the brief period between launch and being overrun by Portugese-speakers in the designated English-language areas and declining. It was also news for nerds due to the fact it was a Google employee's 20% project.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[chromatic]

It's your job as a reader to read at least the first paragraph of the article, which calls Orkut a "... popular social networking site operated by Google."

If that's not enough description, a search engine (also mentioned in the first paragraph of the article) may lead you right to the site.

Re:What the hell is Orkut?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does that explain all the Estonians on Orkut?

Mirror mirror...

[davmoo]

Funny how that works...they are in effect saying "stop the hate campaign we don't like, or we will start a hate campaign against you".

Re:Mirror mirror...

[KDR_11k]

I believe it was called "Gleichschaltung" under Hitler.

Why not just ask Google to censor it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Google's had no problem censoring on government request... why do it the hard way?

When I observe how religious believers behave...

[Anonymous Coward]

...I thank god that I'm an Atheist.

Religion gone wild ..... again..

[the_rajah]

Like this is a big surprise. Historically, religious fundamentalism is behind more violent behavior than any other single cause.

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[MichaelSmith]

religious fundamentalism is behind more violent behavior than any other single cause.

What about sex?

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[ozmanjusri]

What about sex?

Maybe.

Send me a photo, and I'll think about it.

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[metlin]

See, I agree with you.

The problem is, most of these religious nutheads practice some extreme form of their faith, which basically forbids them to fornicate or procreate until they've done a bunch of stupid things.

Personally, I think if we could somehow introduce these guys to alchohol, pot and assorted intoxicants and got them laid a bunch, they'd just stop thinking about other things.

It's all the pent up horniness that's getting to them.

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[p0tat03]

Disclaimer: I am not religious at all. Correlation doesn't represent causality, yadi yada. Honestly though, is religion empowering these people to be violent, or are a group of violent nutjobs merely using religion as an escape to be outraged and wreak havoc? A bit of both?

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[admiralfurburger]

Self abuse does not count as "violent behavior" /for MOST people, anyways...

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[ozmanjusri]

Got the photo thanks.

Ewww. Umm, can we take a rain check?

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[Anonymous Coward]

What about sports?

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[Dan Ost]

Didn't India introduce pot to the western world?

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[Dan Ost]

It's always a bit of both. Some people are thugs and religion lets them justify their thuggery. Some people are religious and somehow feel obligated to respond to a perceived injustice.

But when you get right down to it, they do it because they think they can get away with it. Such is Human Nature.

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[DeepHurtn!]

I disagree. I think that it's money and power (power being the root, money it's most common and forceful expression); religion is almost always just a tool to those ends. Look at a religious conflict long and hard enough, and usually you'll find a fundamentally economic struggle.

Re:Religion gone wild ..... again..

[Attila Dimedici]

Um...Stalin...10 million plus...atheist. Mao...20 to 100 million...atheist. There are several other figures who could be mentioned here. There are several others who could be mentioned here as well. I think you would be hard pressed to name one religious group whose violent death toll comes even close.

Heh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only are they saying that it's not right to voice hate upon others, but they're willing to contradict themselves by forcing their hate against others.

It's not good to hate, but it's worse to resort to violence in order to silence those that hate.

Then again, those that are enacting violence only prove the sayers of hate to be 100% correct. They have a right to hate and to express their displeasure of violence. If the local law enforcement isn't willing to help out against those that threaten and perform violent acts, then India is in deep shit.

The joys of religious nut jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

The joys of religious nut jobs, proving once again the depravity of religion.

mod up

[Billly Gates]

This link brings a whole new meaning to the article as its not a hategroup forum but just another friendster/myspace clone.

At this point there is nothing the radicals wont block if they win with censoring orkut. Maybe google, myspace, livejournal and god knows what next because someone might create a group which could offend someone.

The right response

[Anonymous Coward]

The right thing for all of us to do is to create thousands of groups / blogs / etc. which are offensive to the Shiv Sena, so that it becomes impossible for them to target a few people who have done such courageous things.

Let's see how brave these guys are

[Chas]

The first time one of these cafe owners clubs one of their dumb asses to death when they try busting up his shop.

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Paktu]

As fitting a punishment as that might be, I suspect any cafe owner that uses this tactic will have his own head bashed in within about ten minutes.

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Anonymous Coward]

>>The first time one of these cafe owners clubs one of their dumb asses to death when
>> they try busting up his shop.

You are forgetting that cult cowards like this only travel in large packs.

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Lehk228]

ok fine, cafe owner pulls out an MP5 and opens up on the fuckers

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Anonymous Coward]

>>ok fine, cafe owner pulls out an MP5 and opens up on the fuckers

And dies as his shop is burned down around him.

You keep acting like they play fair or have any concept of morals.

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, yes. The American solution.

I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to suggest it.

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense! Violence never solves anything. The real solution is to roll over and offer your neck to the thugs.

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Catnapster]

What you have to do here is show them that not only are you willing to deal with the thugs on their own terms, you can do it better and faster. By behaving similarly to them, but in a much more extreme fashion, you will impress them and possibly even intimidate them.

Or, to look at it from another point of view, they can't vandalize my goddamn store if I burn it down first!

Re:Let's see how brave these guys are

[Rakarra]

For as much as people call it "The American Solution," amazing how it never happens that way in America.

Article is unclear

[Paktu]

This article could use more details. Are these "activists" angry because people are insulting India, Hinduism, or both?

Re:dear memebers of Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I guess you showed THEM!

Re:When I observe how religious believers behave..

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that. I'll have to remember that joke next time. :)

Precisely, please mod parent UP

[ChePibe]

You beat me to it by a few minutes.

I believe almost basically exactly the same thing as the grandparent. The question with Piss Christ, other than the potentially quite offensive art, is government funding. I can see where the artist is going with this - he wanted to demonstrate how society has treated Christ. To be quite honest I think he's got a point. But using taxpayer dollars to fund something of this sort does not strike me as the best use of our resources. But these are the kinds of situations governments get into when supporting the arts, and let's face it - some of the works produced with that government funding are very good, have a wide appeal, and would never come into existence without government support. This may just be a case of taking the bad with the good, and codifying what is "good" and what is "bad" may be nearly impossible.

That said, the response of American Christians' response to the piece was markedly different than the response to the Mohammed cartoons. I don't doubt that the creator of Piss Christ received threats, but no massive displays of mob violence were present, and despite what many here would say no group approaching the Shiv Sena in power and extremeness exists in the U.S. It is also worthy to note that Piss Christ was reproduced in many American mass media outlets yet the Mohammed cartoons were largely carefully avoided - a very interesting difference.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[dangitman]

The question with Piss Christ, other than the potentially quite offensive art, is government funding.

Got any evidence for that? If the problem was public funding of art in general, then why did they wait until "Piss Christ" to make a big shitstorm about it? Would any other exhibition that was publicly funded, be just as offensive? Somehow I doubt they would be protesting a publicly funded Monet exhibition.

So, why the double standard?

some of the works produced with that government funding are very good, have a wide appeal, and would never come into existence without government support

But should "wide appeal" really be a criteria for the arts? I would have thought artistic expression would be more important. If you want wide appeal, we already have The Simpsons and Lost.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[feepness]

Got any evidence for that? If the problem was public funding of art in general, then why did they wait until "Piss Christ" to make a big shitstorm about it?

It was religious in nature. We try not to do that here.

Would any other exhibition that was publicly funded, be just as offensive? Somehow I doubt they would be protesting a publicly funded Monet exhibition.

Monet is not general considered to have a religious connotation. Monet's work are not religious in nature.

Here's the gist:

1. They didn't like it.
2. It was religious in nature.
3. It was publicly funded.

#2 and #3 put me on their side even if #1 doesn't. But I don't think they got off their tuff until #1 cropped up. I certainly don't bother to protest things I know the government is doing that are stupid. For example, there is a cross mounted on some local public land that a group is suing to remove. I happen to agree it should go if it's on public land. It's still there. I'm not going to do to much about that either.

Hey, should it remain instead if they erect a giant vat of urine around it and call it art? I don't think so. But it would be pretty funny.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[dangitman]

It was religious in nature. We try not to do that here.

So, why didn't they protest when other pro-religious painters were exhibited? And if it is about separation of church and state, then why is it that the same people who protested Piss Christ are the same types that lobby to have nativity scenes and the Ten Commandments shown on public grounds, and teaching of religion in schools?

1. They didn't like it. 2. It was religious in nature. 3. It was publicly funded.

It may have been a comment on religion, but it wasn't an endorsement or "establishment" of religion. But mostly, I simply don't believe that they cared about it being publicly funded. Nor do I believe the religious nature would have bothered them if it were pro-religious.

But I don't think they got off their tuff until #1 cropped up. I certainly don't bother to protest things I know the government is doing that are stupid

And that is what totally undermines their credibility, and makes it seems like the "taxpayer money" thing is just a tacked-on justification, not the real root of the issue.

Hey, should it remain instead if they erect a giant vat of urine around it and call it art? I don't think so.

Why not?

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[ChePibe]

This may just be a case of taking the bad with the good, and codifying what is "good" and what is "bad" may be nearly impossible.

I'll assume you missed this part of my post or, more likely, chose to ignore it. Whatever.

Anyways, why make a stink over the public funding of this piece and not others? I'd think the answer would be obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of human nature - people tend not to get worked up about things they don't perceive as important to them. If a publicly funded artist produces a bunch of landscapes of the boring Kansas countryside, who cares in general? It gets little to no press and little to no attention because there is no controversy. If people perceive an artwork as offensive, though, it attracts interest, controversy, and responses. People start asking why their money was spent on this. Many of them don't mind public funding of the arts in general, but many do mind the public funding of what they perceive (in this case I would argue that the perception was most likely incorrect) as an attack on their religion, particularly from a government who has become so careful about discrimination. It looks to many like the government taking sides in some sort of religious argument, the sort of thing that Americans generally feel the government should stay out of. How would atheists feel if the government funded artists whose work was extremely pro-religious in nature, or anti-atheist? What about, say, an anti-semitic work? Or a blatantly racist artwork? I personally don't believe the art in this case was anti-Christian, but I also see how a reasonable person could come to the opposite conclusion - one does not generally dip portraits of loved ones or those to whom one feels neutral in urine for fun or to show respect.

The question then is - how does one judge what art gets funded? I don't know, and it could be debated endlessly. We're used to government funding being codified - the proper item from the proper distributor, or bidding processes for government buildings, etc. Art is outside of this system. It is hard to control and its variations are endless. Where does one draw the line in a sea of fuzzy gray? What is censorship and what is a reasonable response to the taxpayer's wishes? Don't those who are paying the bills have some right to decide what is made? Or is this simply stiffling artists and does it constitute censorship? And then, what if the piece can be interpreted in many different ways, as almost all great art can be? Should we throw it out because one of many interpretations is "bad", because it could be perceived as offensive? But why should I pay for something if I find it offensive?

Religion and art share a long history as well, and a great many works will undoubtedly reference religion in ways that many people on both sides may be uncomfortable with - especially when they find out they're footing the bill. I have yet to make up my mind on Piss Christ, but I can see that both sides do have reasonable arguments and valid concerns, and I find myself siding a bit more with those against it on reasons of policy. Then again, as soon as I begin to side with them, many questions from the preceding paragraph pop up. I realize that someone who hasn't quite made up his mind is viewed as a heretic or worse in this polarized atmosphere, but I'm a fence-sitter on this one.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[feepness]

So, why didn't they protest when other pro-religious painters were exhibited? And if it is about separation of church and state, then why is it that the same people who protested Piss Christ are the same types that lobby to have nativity scenes and the Ten Commandments shown on public grounds, and teaching of religion in schools?

I don't think we're on the same page here. I agree that they are entirely incosistent and short-sighted... but they get to be inconsiderate stupid assholes and still get to be right in this specific instance. Just as I believe they are wrong about the commandment and teaching religion in schools (except for philosophy classes)... and just as I also believe you're wrong about piss-Christ and are also inconsistent.

Which is why it's a damn good idea to keep the govt far far away from this crap. It's very hard to agree on.

And that is what totally undermines their credibility, and makes it seems like the "taxpayer money" thing is just a tacked-on justification, not the real root of the issue.

Of course it's tacked-on! Duh! But it also happens to be correct, which is all I really care about. But might I suggest your insistence on pointing this out also feels tacked-on because it's clear you dislike this group?

Hey, should it remain instead if they erect a giant vat of urine around it and call it art? I don't think so.

Why not?

Because it's a cross and crosses bring up religious issues in people. Some in one way, some in another. And it's completely and easily avoidable with very few consequences by removing things with clear religious connotations.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[TheRaven64]

Out of interest, would you also object to a publicly funded performance of, for example, Handel's Messiah?

Religion and art have had a long relationship; both are ways of holding a mirror up to the human condition. Trying to separate them is likely to be a very difficult task.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[feepness]

Out of interest, would you also object to a publicly funded performance of, for example, Handel's Messiah?

Yeah, that was a question that cropped up for me in my own head... or a display of classical artists with a decidedly religious theme. Or what should happen if the Sistine Chapel was a national monument? It's a question of degree I think... and it's really hard to find the line.

To be perfectly clear, I don't object to the piss-christ thing (although I think it's kind of stupid...) or even the publicly displayed cross (although what purpose does it serve?). But I happen to agree if either bothers someone it needs to be removed from the public payroll. That's not censorship... it's rational in my opinion,

So my answer is... no... I don't object to Handel's Messiah being played in a public venue. But if a group did have a problem with it (which I doubt would happen), there is enough other classical music and private performers that a publicly funded group doesn't need to play it.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[dangitman]

But might I suggest your insistence on pointing this out also feels tacked-on because it's clear you dislike this group?

That's really beside the point. It is tacked-on, to try to appeal to those outside their religious base. I don't think I'm being inconsistent, because I hate anything that tries to interfere with artistic expression and freedom of speech.

Because it's a cross and crosses bring up religious issues in people.

A vat of urine is a cross? I'm not following. That's what I was replying to, not Piss Christ.

Some in one way, some in another. And it's completely and easily avoidable with very few consequences by removing things with clear religious connotations.

It's not easily avoidable. Nearly everything can have religious connotations. A cow is a sacred symbol to Hindus. A kangaroo has religious importance to aborigines. A plate of lasagna has religious significance to pastafarians. Wine has religous significance to Catholics.

So, how is it possible to avoid symbology that may be interpreted as religious in nature?

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[dangitman]

I'll assume you missed this part of my post or, more likely, chose to ignore it. Whatever.

No, I just wanted to elaborate on it, to take the questions further.

How would atheists feel if the government funded artists whose work was extremely pro-religious in nature, or anti-atheist?

Happens all the time, yet you don't see much protest. Certainly not the vilification heaped on Mapplethorpe and Serrano.

one does not generally dip portraits of loved ones or those to whom one feels neutral in urine for fun or to show respect.

But, isn't urine a blessed creation of God?

Religion and art share a long history as well, and a great many works will undoubtedly reference religion in ways that many people on both sides may be uncomfortable with - especially when they find out they're footing the bill.

Indeed. But I think it's generally the "anti-art" zealots who are unaware of these complexities and paint eveything as black-and-white. I think artists, and art appreciators, by their nature can see these nuances.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[truckaxle]

But should "wide appeal" really be a criteria for the arts?

Yes, for public sponsored art. Art exhibited with public funds should have a wide appeal, just like tax dollars spend for road maintenance should be spent for a "wide appeal".

Somehow I doubt they would be protesting a publicly funded Monet exhibition.

Exactly.

Re:Precisely, please mod parent UP

[feepness]

So, how is it possible to avoid symbology that may be interpreted as religious in nature?

It's not. But you can avoid the govt paying for it. This conversation has been very interesting and led me to find that line mentally... that line is when people complain. So you publicly fund Handel's Messiah all you like until someone complains and you can publicly fund a cross-pissing contest until someone complains. It doesn't mean you can't do those thing on your own dime anytime you please... just don't force the people that are being offended to pay for it. That may interfere at some point with artistic expression and that's a shame, but being in a society means having your personal preferences interferred with from time to time. I like driving at 120+ mph sometimes. Doing so properly is an art if you ask me. There are wonderfully open stretches of desert highway where it is completely safe in this artists opinion. I still have to go to a track or risk getting heavily fined.

And that's not to mention my grant application getting denied out of hand!

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[nkv]

So, India is a democracy, but it is not a Western nation.
Thankfully.

World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Tablizer]

Why is it only the US seems to "get" freedom of speech? (And even we are losing it, but in different ways). I think people are afraid to learn and confront ideas that they don't want to see. Political and religious criticism, good or bad, is necessary for a mature civalization.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it only the US seems to "get" freedom of speech?

It seems that way to you because you are looking at things from a narrow and biased US-centric viewpoint. The fact is that there are many places where freedom of speech is respected as much as (or more than) in the USA. You just don't know about it, because you get your perspective on the rest of the world from the bad news that is reported. You'll never see a news report saying "freedom of speech prevails in foreign country."

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[balthan]

How is this different than Sharpton calling for Imus to be fired? (Except for the vandalism part.)

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[moz25]

Why is it only the US seems to "get" freedom of speech?

It doesn't.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Tickletaint]

Because you're defining "freedom of speech" in U.S.-centric terms. Purely for instance, take much of Europe, which doesn't construe freedom of speech to include Holocaust denial, but political criticism is tolerated much more by the government in power.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[NeuroManson]

Oh, America gets freedom of speech alright, as long as the majority agrees with it. Just look at online politics over the last 6 years.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

Why is it only the US seems to "get" freedom of speech?

Oh, we don't. We got lucky, in our history, in that the right group of guys at the right moment in time did "get" it. But the vast majority of the country has never really understood or embraced the principle -- any more than the majority has understood or embraced freedom of religion. Enlightenment-style democracy is hard and most people are, and have been, unwilling to exert themselves to be worthy of it.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Turn-X Alphonse]

Gets freedom of speech?

I dare you to walk outside, into a mall full of people and scream "I HAVE SEXUAL URGES TOWARDS CHILDREN!" and see how long you're able to walk afterwards. I very much doubt your freedom of speech will stand for very much if you oppose the popular opinion against child molesting.

This is without going into the whole Islam and terrorist ordeal, which others I'm sure will.

DISCLAIMER : I am NOT pro child molesting in any way shape or form. I DO NOT support this kind of thing, it is just the perfect example for this post.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Khaed]

Well, one, Sharpton is a professional race-baiter (see Tawana Brawley). But the vandalism part *is* the difference. He never said he'd break into a CBS studio and bust up their radio equipment if they didn't fire Imus.

If he did, maybe then I wouldn't have to hear him every time he thinks he can make a buck off the suffering of blacks.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you're defining "freedom of speech" in U.S.-centric terms. Purely for instance, take much of Europe, which doesn't construe freedom of speech to include Holocaust denial, but political criticism is tolerated much more by the government in power.

Typical bullshit. "Holocaust denial" is simply a tactic used by the current regimes in power to prevent any public debate about some of the founding myths about the current regimes in power - and thus preventing so-called "Holocaust denial" is indeed a tactic governments use to shut down, silence, and terrorize anyone who does not buy into the founding myths of the post-WWII liberal democratic order of things. Sure, criticism of governments (permanent regimes actually, regardless of which "party" is allegedly running things) is "tolerated" - you just can't expose any of the founding myths that prop up and justify their perpetual hold on power. That's "Holocaust denial". If I have to spell out how this works to you, you are too naive and trusting to be let out on your own without your mommy or daddy.

Most of the people terrorised, brutalized, attacked, vilified, beaten up by thugs, subject to arson attacks, acid thrown in their face, etc., denied a means of earning a living, denied tenure, denied access to "respectable" publications, thrown in jail and continually harrassed by political prosecution for merely writing or speaking on certain topics, are [b]not[/b] the neo-nazis and skinheads portrayed in the media.

Free speech in Europe? Fucking hypocrites.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Gareth Williams]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the perfect example of a poster who "doesn't get" freedom of speech.

The whole concept is about the protection of people from their government. Your government shouldn't persecute you for your thoughts or beliefs, or (indirectly) through your expression of those thoughts and beliefs (speech). History has taught us that when a government starts making rules like "if you think / say XYZ then we'll throw you in jail" (or even just stop you from saying it), then they're well on their way to becoming oppressive. Thus, we don't stand for it (or at least, shouldn't).

Too many people interpret this as "I can say anything I like, and you have to listen to me / give me a place or medium to say it / agree with what I'm saying / etc etc". That's false.

Your speech isn't without consequences. If you oppose popular opinion on such an emotional topic, from such vastly unpopular and indefensible position, you should expect that you're going to cause some... aggravation, to say the least. If you scream "fire" in a crowed theatre you're also going to cause people some aggravation. All this has absolutely zero to do with the concept of freedom of speech.

The amount of people who honestly think like this really surprises me sometimes. I suspect "freedom of speech" is somewhat of a misnomer for what is really a simple enough concept. I wish I could think of a more appropriate name. Suggestions? :)

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Anonymous Coward]

With respect, that has precious little to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have no consequences to face if you piss people off. It just means that the state won't stand in your way, and will give you the same protections as other people.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Turn-X Alphonse]

I would say you don't get freedom of speech.

The Government has nothing to do with Freedom of Speech, because I do not have free speech is Jim down the road can stop me saying what I want to say.

It's an American ideal that rules only apply to the Government and it's a very very strange ideal.

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[Tablizer]

dare you to walk outside, into a mall full of people and scream "I HAVE SEXUAL URGES TOWARDS CHILDREN!" and see how long you're able to walk afterwards.

I don't consider that the same category as religious criticism. Plus, there may be laws against saying such.

This is without going into the whole Islam and terrorist ordeal, which others I'm sure will.

Do you have any specific incident in mind?

Re:World ain't "get" freedom of speech

[nightgeometry]

Hmm, I have moderator points, where is my WTF? moderation option?

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[Anonymous Coward]

India faces serious national security threats in one way or another from all its neighbours. It has seen war with most of them and was invaded by China.

I don't know what you mean by "Western Nation". No "Western Nation" was a democracy not so long ago. But India is strongly culturally linked to Europe as anybody with a minor knowledge of the world and its history will know.

Re:dear memebers of Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena

[Anonymous Coward]

Ralph, you appear to be sexually repressed. When are you going to shoot down your local university?
We welcome free expression but lack of self-control (by individual not system) will only result in more sons of whores like yourself being born into this wonderful planet.
Please take your jizz and feed it to your unfortunate family.

chocolate christ

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're wrong about the tax dollars being the point. The "government funding" part was a red herring and was just an excuse to mobilize and sell to a larger crowd the message that the arts are anti-religious. I lived in north carolina when this went down and the big issue was any government funding of the arts PERIOD. And current views have gotten even more radical.

Unlike piss christ, we had a much tamer and/or more thoughtful work of art that was cancelled in NY i believe this year at a private gallery. It was an easter installation of a chocolate christ that was being made by a very very well known food sculptor (that's his thing). Despite the obvious pro-religious commentary on the commoditization of christ for easter, or perhaps a not-so-pro religious view of the communion aspect of chocolatey goodness, the American Christians mobilized against the piece. And clearly the mobilization was against art in general that comments on religion--regardless of the message.

Re:chocolate christ

[suv4x4]

commoditization of christ for easter

Yes, they're making mockery of Jesus by tying him randomly to Easter like thatg. What's Easter got to do with Jesus anyway.

It's about bunnies, people! Next thing, they'll tie him to Christmas as well. Idiots.

Re:chocolate christ

[adyus]

commoditization of christ for easter

Yes, they're making mockery of Jesus by tying him randomly to Easter like thatg. What's Easter got to do with Jesus anyway.

It's about bunnies, people! Next thing, they'll tie him to Christmas as well. Idiots.
Hmm, I thought they had him 'pinned', not tied, on Easter :P

There goes my karma, and I don't mean on Slashdot...

Re:chocolate christ

[Inverted Intellect]

Even though you appear to have mostly been joking, you've hit on a bit of truth.

Easter is a heathen celebration of fertility (as demonstrated by the large amounts of eggs and the ever-symbolic rapidly-breeding rodent) taken over by Christianity. Christmas happens to be celebrated on the Winter Solstice, even though the time of Jesus' birth is a somewhat murky matter.

In some nations, despite being overtly christian, they still call the Winter Solstice celebration by its traditional name, Yule, or variations thereof.

Re:chocolate christ

[billstewart]

lagomorphs aren't rodents....

And unlike Christmas, where the date of the celebration probably was set to preempt other religions' Winter solstice festivals, the date for the celebration of the Crucifixion wasn't arbitrary - the events did happen at Passover, which is at the Spring Equinox (though the subsequent messing around with solar vs. lunar calendars means that the Orthodox and western Christian groups don't always celebrate it exactly at Passover.) Taking over the name "Easter" is misappropriation, but the date isn't.

Re:chocolate christ

[kalirion]

That's funny, I thought that Easter was a celebration of St. Peter Rabbit....

So what group specifically are they pissed about?

[Tracy Reed]

Could someone please tell us what orkut groups and messages in particular that they are upset about so that we may judge for ourselves? This may well be like the 09 f9 incident: If we let the whole world see those messages and judge for themselves as a result of this group bringing attention to the issue perhaps they will rethink their tactics and we will all gain a better understanding of exactly what sort of libel this group is upset about.

Re:pfft...

[WIAKywbfatw]

Your level of ignorance is amazing.

Because there's no evidence of "middle ages thinking" in the US or elsewhere, is there?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all eight Republican candidates for President stand up on stage and agree that there was still no place for gays in the US military? Isn't that "middle ages thinking"?

Aren't abortion clinics and their staff in the US regularly attacked by pro-lifers? Don't people still set up shop in a country where that type of thing is a routine event?

As for letting them "sit in the dirt and eat with their hands if they like it so much", well, remind me again what proportion of the US lives below the poverty line and/or has no health coverage?

Fool.

Re:dear memebers of Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena

[Anonymous Coward]

I noticed despite all of graphic sexual talk, you didn't at least have the balls to throw something in about how Xenu is buttfucking Mohammed (Perverted Bastard and Unhinged Homosexual) on your kitchen table.

And they call _me_ a coward!

US "gets" freedom of speech? No way, buddy...

[WIAKywbfatw]

If you think that the US is the last bastion of freedom of speech then you're as deluded as these Indian students.

As for your assertion that "political and religious criticism, good or bad, is necessary for a mature civalization", I'm inclined to agree.

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a candidate for President who wasn't a Christian?

And when was the last time someone was able to question why the US is involved in a "War on Terror" without being figuratively stoned to death and then fed the standard "they hate us for our freedoms" rubbish?

The US isn't as politically or religiously free as you would like to think.

Re:US "gets" freedom of speech? No way, buddy...

[Tablizer]

Tell me, when was the last time you saw a candidate for President who wasn't a Christian?

What does this have to do with censorship?

And when was the last time someone was able to question why the US is involved in a "War on Terror" without being figuratively stoned to death and then fed the standard "they hate us for our freedoms" rubbish?

Can you name a specific incident? After 9/11 there were some individual wackos who harassed and harmed people wearing turbans, but as far as I know they were proscecuted if caught.

Re:US "gets" freedom of speech? No way, buddy...

[WIAKywbfatw]

The first point relates to religion, specifically how not being of a given faith is a career killer in US politics. And it's not just true of the Presidency, it's true of many lesser posts.

If you don't think that is a worry, well, imagine if it was impossible to get elected in Canada unless you were a Bhuddist. Or imagine that people were effectively barred from office for, say, being left-handed. Get the picture yet?

The second point, well, I suggest you look up what "figuratively" means because you clearly have no idea what it means and have it confused with another word.

Re:US "gets" freedom of speech? No way, buddy...

[Tablizer]

The first point relates to religion, specifically how not being of a given faith is a career killer in US politics. And it's not just true of the Presidency, it's true of many lesser posts. If you don't think that is a worry...

Whether its a worry or not, I don't see any real relation to censorship. Perhaps it could be called "discrimination", but not censorship.

The second point, well, I suggest you look up what "figuratively" means because you clearly have no idea what it means and have it confused with another word.

Then give me "figurative" examples. Just give specific instances. "They always do X" is not evidence. You have to show specific instances of X. That is how debates work.

Re:US "gets" freedom of speech? No way, buddy...

[WIAKywbfatw]

Firstly, I didn't mention censorship, you've done that by yourself. Having said that, it's not too much a reach to describe discrimination as a form of censorship, is it?

But, hey, if you're willing to tolerate discrimination in your "perfect" US society that "gets" freedom of speech, well, good for you, buddy.

Secondly, if, six years on from September 11th, you need me to point out clear examples of how political debate and dissent was stifled in the aftermath of those attacks then you're practically a lost cause.

But if you truly want examples, here's the first link I found from a quick Google search: http://www.ncac.org/issues/freeex911.cfm.

I hope you learn something beyond what "figuratively" means from this exercise.

Re:US "gets" freedom of speech? No way, buddy...

[Tablizer]

Having said that, it's not too much a reach to describe discrimination as a form of censorship, is it?

Well, if *all* favoratism is "censorship", then the term becomes watered down such to make it nearly useless.

But, hey, if you're willing to tolerate discrimination in your "perfect" US society that "gets" freedom of speech, well, good for you, buddy.

No, I am merely dealing with the topic at hand. I did not lump them.

Secondly, if, six years on from September 11th, you need me to point out clear examples of how political debate and dissent was stifled in the aftermath of those attacks then you're practically a lost cause.

For example, has any US citizen been jailed for *merely* criticizing the war? We can talk about "subtle censorship", but I think that happens everywhere and probably always will, short of Minority-Report-like mind police.

Re:dear memebers of Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena

[Anonymous Coward]

I can say things like this and not have to deal with asshats like you coming to my house and making life difficult.
You forgot to leave your address.

Attention Hindu Extremists

[Anonymous Coward]

I wash my testicles in the river Ganges.

Re:Attention Hindu Extremists

[Anonymous Coward]

Attention "Anonymous Coward"

With the kind of pollution in there... you can soon kiss your balls good bye.

Re:Attention Hindu Extremists

[Anonymous Coward]

I wash my testicles in the river Ganges.

Its will be miracle if the are still working... You better get them checked out. ;)

Useless Hypocrisy

[Sukhbir]

The reason Orkut is targeted is cause of the popularity. Orkut is like the MySpace of India and people get internet at their homes so that they can access Orkut - so much is the popularity. Shiv Sena and RSS are stupid political parties who have not done anything for the people of India except dividing them on communal lines. If they are so concerned about the people of India, they should stop popularizing their communal agenda and actually start doing something for the people. So what if the communities exist? How does it matter? Is it posing a threat to the country? No. Sentiments are something else agreed, but just cause of one or two things, that doesn't mean they shut the whole thing down. Same was the case with a website by the name of Hindu Unity. It is now banned in India cause it had anti - Islamic content severe in nature. When it was banned, the Shiv Sena and RSS were protesting cause they said censoring was violating the rights of the people. How about it now?

Re:Useless Hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not know much about Shiv Sena but I clearly know more about RSS

Both of them are totally different. If you have read the story properly, it is Shiv Sena which is creating all these problems. RSS name is not mentioned anywhere.

When there were extreme right-wing people, this lead to the creation of left. Though most of us would be neutral.

Scenario is similar in India where many political organization exists because they ask vote based on caste and religion (specifically minorities). Their existence is natural.

If you had known more about RSS, they are the one who urged to end this cast system. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1507163/p osts

As far as banning those hate communities in orkut, google has a responsibility to ban them. When they can ban hatred blogs on blogspot.com why not on orkut.

If I say your country or religion sucks would you love me. Of course not. Same is the reason here.

BTW I do not support violence which would be carried out to block orkut here.

Should slowly fade away

[roxtar]

I think the RSS/Shiv Sena guys are just using this to have their periodic 15 seconds of fame. As far as cafe owners censoring Orkut is concerned: It won't happen. The number of orkut users from India is really high. Its the cafe owner's bread and butter.

Dear fanatics

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely sympathise with your struggles against Western influence.
However, I feel that Orkut may be the wrong target. Instead, may I suggest you:
a) get rid of your Parliament
b) get rid of your common law derived legal system
c) split your country into a patchwork of squabbling princedoms, instead of the united country left to you by the British
d) stop taking Western jobs
e) go back to burning your wives
f) tear up your railways, hospitals, grammar schools, telephone system and everything else bequeathed to you by the Empire.
g) go back to getting pwned by Muslims on a regular basis.

Incidentally, we'll take in all the Sikhs if they don't fit in your Hindu paradise. They seem capable of living in the 21st century.

Signed,
Your former colonial masters

Re:Dear fanatics

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, we will. But first, dear colonial masters, please return the following

1) The money that you took from India over 200+ years in the form of taxes, protection money, stolen jewellery (ever know where the biggest jewel in the Crown came from ?) and other artifacts, etc. etc. that you used to fund your colonial campaigns in other countries and 2 World Wars.

That .. will .. be.. all.

Yep, the British were so generous ! They introduced railways (for moving troops), English language and the abominable bureaucracy (for training clerks to rule a vast country), aviation (to station their Air Force) and hospitals (duh!) for nothing except for guaranteed income and raw materials which were used to finance and feed the entire fricking Industrial Revolution.

P.S.:In 1857, Hindus and Muslims fought the British as one and they failed. When the British left in 1947, Hindus and Muslims were divided. Guess who played the most mischief in the intervening period ? Our bloody colonial masters.

Re:Dear fanatics

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely sympathize with you for trying to think a little.
However, I feel that advising others might be a wrong start.
a) Get (rid of?) your medication
b) Get rid of your computer
c) Get rid of that false pride and arogance
d) Get admitted to some mental health facility or maybe a middle school
e) Get rid of all your stuff, its been made outside your country
f) Get a life

Incidentally, we wont take crap from you. You seem to be idiot.

Signed,
Everyone else.

Re:Dear fanatics

[Anonymous Coward]

Gimme a break dude.

Your pathetic and sick attitude speaks of your "colonial masterism".Now thing is you suck and so does people like you who think on similar lines. You are no different than people who are involved in these kind of hate politics.

Remember my friend if you feel threatened by some Indians,better run before they run off your sorry ass.

Forget about ruling Indians better save your ass.Because somebody may be spilling all your wife's face dickhead and soon you 'll have to cope with this up.

And i wonder what you gonna do raising someone else's child?:-D.haah...maybe you can try something else...like taking a gun out and go bam bam in the street killing people to satiate your "masterism".

Or maybe you better turn gay and have fun bending over. haaah... some people still live with *fucking* Lord Mackauly.

Re:pfft...

[mercurialmale]

Specifics aside, this kind of thing is just another piece of why India (as opposed to China, Vietnam etc.) remains all talk and no action. Would you, as an American or EU business owner want to set up shop in a country where these types of things are routine events?

...As opposed to setting up shop in a country where you toe the official party line or ship out?

This is Freedom 101 - you need to put up with idiots and their opinions. India is perhaps the only recently independent nation that has even attempted to achieve an essentially open society. In India, we are free to express and actively promote our views - and that includes morons such as these RSS guys. What's not mentioned in TFA is that we also have recourse to the courts and the police, who, while inefficient, generally do come through in guaranteeing our basic safety.

India continues to prove itself incapable of shaking off such middle ages thinking

Thank you for judging me and my entire country based on the actions of these asshats. Should I go ahead and assume that all Americans think like Ann Coulter?

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[Anonymous Coward]

When Japan was impoverished, the Japanese put their government funds into building the economy. The Indians put their money into nuclear weapons and space projects.

So, India is a democracy, but it is not a Western nation.

Oh, right, because no WESTERN nation would put its money into nuclear weapons and space projects... never been done, nope.

Mod parent up

[mercurialmale]

Spot on - this has nothing to do with religion. Note that the real Hindu clergy is not protesting.

This is pure, filthy politics - the Shiv Sena and their ilk are just trying to fight their own growing irrelevance - this is just to remind the UPA government that they still have the power to make life difficult - an attempt to gain leverage on some obscure internal negotiations, perhaps.

You and I are not the intended audience for this charade - the current administration is. The poor Internet cafes are merely caught in the crossfire.

And finally to all those who lament censorship in India, please don't worry on our behalf. We Indians have seen off graver challenges to our freedoms. We maintain a level of openness unmatched in the third world, and it will take more than a few assholes like these guys to change that. We're far from perfect in this regard, of course, but we'll get by just fine.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

Really?

Here is an interesting interview of Nobel Laureate V.S. Naipaul that points out how the "Indian Intelligentsia" (ie communist fanatics and Islamists) deliberately skew media reports against the Shiv Sena as part of a systematic campaign of hatred directed against Hindus. The Shiv Sena has done more for the emancipation of the Maharashtrian poor then any of the leftist parties who attack and villify them.


Also notable is Naipaul's famous observation in his bestseller "India, A Wounded Civilization":

<quote>
There was one portrait. And interestingly, it was not of the leader of the Shiv Sena or of Shivaji, the 17 th century Maratha King, but of the long-dead Dr. Ambedkar...Popular-and near-ecstatic-movements like the Shiv Sena ritualize many different needs. The Sena here, honouring an angry and (for all his eminence) defeated man, seemed quite different from the Sena the newspapers wrote about
</quote>

I'm not a big fan of Shiv Sena or the RSS in general. But when I see our own media attack and villify them as part of a shameless excuse to pander to a rising tide of Communist and Islamic Fundamentalism, while ignoring the brutal and barbaric massacres and atrocities against Hindus in Kashmir, Pakistan, Bangadesh, and even at times condoning them, and when Communists in the media openly attack Hindus and demand for their mass killings, I have no choice but to speak out, even though, on leftist-dominated slashdot, that makes me a "Filthy Hindu animal" worthy only to be a hateful object.

Sorry, but in an atmosphere when rabid Indophobia and anti-Hinduism is tolerated and a culture of hatre is built against them, how the hell do you expect them to react? Bend over and take it?

The RSS was basically founded as a social service organization for the emancipation and protection of poor Hindus during the 1940's in a rising tide of violence directed against Hindus by Islamic Fundamentalist mobs during the Islamic Caliphate resurrection movement in India and the days following the anti-Hindu genocides in Bengal (the Direct Action Riots instigated by the Pakistani Nationalists and the Partition massacres). In that sense, they were more like the Anti-Defamation League in the US contemporary to that period. For the most part, even currently their primary goals are social service, the emancipation of the poor (the RSS spent millions coordinating relief efforts during the 2004 Tsunami disaster in South India), an active campaign against untouhability and caste bigotry (60% ofRSS members are Dalits and other lower castes), and trying to provide a unified political emancipation movement for Hindus in a rising climate of hostility against them, much like Irish Nationalism or Zionism in Israel.

However, because this would endanger the power base upper-caste dominated left wing government and polity in India and their Islamist votebank, they started a virulent hate campaign against the RSS, one that spilled over to hatred against Hindus in general. Eventually, they were pushed hard enough to the wall to start pushing back, that's all.

Re:Mod parent up

[stony3k]

Umm... when was the last time V. S. Naipaul lived in India, and I mean lived, not visited. He should not comment on things he has no clue about. The problem with many of the Indians living outside India is that they have been fed a lie that Hinduism is under attack in India and is dying. Nothing could be further from the truth, just going by the sheer number of people who are present whenever any so-called "Godman" comes to town.

I'm not denying that there is a section of the Indian polity that is often anti-hindu because of vote bank politics. But there is equally a section that is rabidly pro-hindu because of vote bank politics.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why every news story about Shiv Sena involves vandalism - they're never doing anything constructive, always destructive. It's no wonder then that they find themselves slowly losing favor in the eyes of the common man.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

The problem with many of the Indians living outside India is that they have been fed a lie that Hinduism is under attack in India and is dying. The problem with Indians in India is that they are too blinded by propaganda disseminated by a Communist intelligentsia, moderated by a socialist regime, and aggravated by the rising tide of Islamist militancy in the country. It is precisely the objectivity of outside observation that Naipaul brings to the Indian social landscape, something which Indians in India do not possess, unfortunately. It is a sad day for the Indian intellect when an outsider like Naipaul is needed to expose the reality...

they're never doing anything constructive, Really? Who do you think improved living conditions in the Dharavi Slum in Mumbai (the worst slum in Asia)? The Shiv Sena. Yet, nobody but Naipaul wrote about that obvious fact (known to most Mumbaikars). Who do you think build all those expressways in Mumbai and removed the congested traffic that was choking the city's economy, the Shiv Sena. Also a fact known to most Mumbaikars. Yet, it is only mentioned by the media as an insignificant footnote.
There is most definitely a pervasive media bias against the Shiv Sena. A bias that stems from Islamist votebank politics, motivated primarily by a sense of "My enemy's enemy is my ally" style of realpolotik and the desire of the left to ultimately eradicate all criticism from Hindus and render India a totalitarian, communist regime.
What about the thuggery and villany of the Communist Party? What about the decades of nepotism, corruption, and state-sponsored buggerry conducted by Communist bastard despots like Jyoti Basu in West Bengal? What about the thugs and murderer Communists called Naxalites inIndia's red corridor (Bengal, Bihar, orissa and northern AP)? How well does the Indian Media report about their killings, rapes, bombings and Pakistani support? No, the Indian media is only obsessed with Hindus.
How well does the media report the attacks on poor Hindus carried out by the Communist thugs in Nandigram just a few months ago? In the finest traditions fo Stalin and Mao, the CPM massacred dozens of poor Hindus in Nandigram , and the media conveniently hid the whole damn thing under the rug. Only the international media reported on it with any degree of objectivity.

Re:Mod parent up

[Plutonite]

You have been modded appropriately funny.

There is no way a sane human being can be *for* censoring the very justified comments people make about cow worshipping, caste systems..etc, yet at the same time claim to be basing that support on the desire to make media objective. If you have a gripe with the news outlets - all news outlets - then that is your problem. When they all agree across the political spectrum, they usually have a point. Otherwise, please explain why all our free media wants to "pander" to Islamic fundamentalism and Communism.

The RSS was basically founded as a social service organization for the emancipation and protection of poor Hindus during the 1940's I could say a lot of funny things here about the consequences of caste racism and Really Simple Syndication , but I won't.

and trying to provide a unified political emancipation movement for Hindus in a rising climate of hostility against them, much like Irish Nationalism or Zionism in Israel. Oooh, you've made yourself awfully popular now, justified the nationalist BS completely there. Religiously inspired racist/uber nationalist movements and organisations are not a nice thing, FYI. The ADL and the Jewish defense league are 2 of the most hated, intrusive, and censorship-happy lobbyists on Capitol Hill. Pictures of holocaust victims are great. Video footage of Israeli military/settlers committing vicious crimes = anti-semitism.

However, because this would endanger the power base upper-caste dominated left wing government and polity in India and their Islamist votebank, Upper-caste...left wing....Islamist ...BOOM, my brain asplode. Upper-caste/elites are supposed to be rich right-wing types, you clown. And they don't like "fundamentalist Islamists" very much because much love is lost in extremist relations. Also you're using the "Islamist" word too much, it's starting to sound like a fear-mongering GWB routine. Not good. And the present Chief of Justice is an untouchable (though not under current law).

I have no choice but to speak out, even though, on leftist-dominated slashdot, that makes me a "Filthy Hindu animal" worthy only to be a hateful object. Your other choice is to shut up, or we will censor you for hinting that our holy cows are filthy, you insensitive clod! If we wanted to insult you we would call you a Dalit(untouchable). And I am conservative-ish and republican, like many others here.

Re:Mod parent up

[snottgoblin]

I see that your attitude is no different from the so called communist propagandists. I do not see any objectivity in your comment. You seem to want to selectively highlight the constructive role of the shiv sena and the RSS while downplaying their religious intolerance.

"It is precisely the objectivity of outside observation that Naipaul brings to the Indian social landscape, something which Indians in India do not possess, unfortunately. It is a sad day for the Indian intellect when an outsider like Naipaul is needed to expose the reality..."

Merely because you are unaware of Indians within India that objectively evaluate the conditions in India, doesn't mean they do not exist. Check out the many number of books and articles written by Arun Shourie during his journalistic days, read the columns by Tavleen Singh...

"What about the thugs and murderer Communists called Naxalites in India's red corridor (Bengal, Bihar, orissa and northern AP)? How well does the Indian Media report about their killings, rapes, bombings and Pakistani support? No, the Indian media is only obsessed with Hindus."

I see the Indian media report on naxalites almost on a daily basis and toe the government line of blaming everything on the ISI and Pakistan. Again you are being dishonest to try and prove your own point. I do not condone the actions of the naxalites, but I do not hate them or their idelogy either. They came into being because the 'State' failed to do its duties and instead abused the citizens. It is a well known fact that the police and the politicians abuse their power and the poor are hapless observers. This was the cause for the naxalites to come into being. Merely brushing aside the cause and condemning the consequences does not make you seem any more intelligent than the communist intelligentsia.

As to your claim that the India media is only obsessed with Hindus, they are equally reticent about any disruptive actions of the Indian military in Kashmir and the various Kashmiri leaders that are under house arrest. Such actions are no different from those of an autocratic state.

In conclusion you have brought no sense of objectivity to this discussion but merely stated views that are the extreme opposite of the "communist intelligentsia".

Re:Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

RSS's mother organization (ABHM, Godse) killed Gandhi. RSS activists indulge in arson, without ANY provocation on every valentines day. They participate in every hindu-muslim riot. I think you have got it the other way round. Their main goal is to spread fear and violence. Everything else is secondary for them.

Tolerance is the biggest show of strength. Thats what keeps India ticking despite abject poverty and unfathomable diversity; Look at any other country that achieved independence around 1947 and compare. Thats what RSS doesnt understand.

Re:Mod parent up

[Plutonite]

I was not trolling for a response, I was making what I believe to be valid points while having a laugh with the poster (all of whose posts supporting censorship have been modded up). Indian chauvinists running slashdot?

Re:Mod parent up

[ashayh]

Hi You are forgetting to inform them about about the "Akhand Bharat" ideology that many (most?) RSS/VHP/SS cadres believe in. Some believe it openly, some in covert (like Advani) You know what it says... come on! You want me to remind you? It calls for subjugation/extermination of all non-hindus in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal to re-create the glorious hindu past. How is this different from Islamic nationalists? How is this different from Nazis wanting to assimilate all Aryan countries and destroy their non-aryan populace.

RSS and other hindu nationalists openly call for use of nuclear weapons. How is this different from neo-cons in the US or Iran? Have you been to an RSS rally? Well neither have I, but I'm from Nagpur so I have some idea about what I'm talking about. RSS rallys are practically a mirror of Nazi rallys with the same hate filled monologue and brain washing of people and children.
I do support a couple of things that these guys say. The Uniform civil code for example. However, if you happen to listen to their leaders speak, it seems they want a Uniform civil code not for the human rights of Muslim women, but just because Hindu men are being denied something that Muslim men aren't! Are they equally concerned about the plight/concerns of Kashmiri Muslims as they are of Kashmiri Pundits? Of course not.

You are saying that RSS does a lot of charity work. Well it's possible to do so by having nothing to do with religion. Most people who help during disasters are not seeking religious mileage. (Though they may be religiously motivated)

You mention a quote saying a SS office having a poster of Ambedkar. What a laugh. That means they have not read a single word Ambedkar ever wrote.(I have read enough)Dr. Ambedkar was a ultra-modernist who did want want anything to do with a divisive religion like Hinduism. He did not care a rats ass about the Vedas and other religious books. Please read his books and get back to me. Also get back to the Shiv Sainiks who have Ambedkars poster.

You mention all the "achievements" of Shiv Sena in another post. Of course, the town planners and the Western consultants and IAS officers and hundreds of engineers had nothing to do with improving Mumbai... it was all Shiv Sena. Did it ever occur to you that spending on Public transport is wiser than spending on flyovers? Because the traffic in Mumbai is asked fucked as ever and will continue to get worse. And of course, they completely stopped corruption. In Dabhol for example. You are drinking too much kool aid if you think the SS governs any better or worse than Congress or any other. As far as I am concerned, the Congress is the lesser of two evils. And I'm not a Congress supporter by any stretch of imagination.

And the Dharavi slum is "improved"? Come on! I live less than a kilometer from Dharavi and it's as fucked up as ever.But now with some very filthy and half hearted Apartment complexes.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the media does not report "atrocities against Hindus" by Communists. I read them all the time. Most Naxalites or Communists are not "godless hindus". Do you think Communist cadres in Bengal do not attend Durga puja or the dozen other religious festivals? How many Temples/Churches/Mosques do Naxalites/Communists attack. Please. When Naxalites attack, it's not because they hate Hindus. I oppose their violence, but they do have some genuine concerns. Sometimes they are poor who are simply brain washed and given power through a gun. So these are "atrocities against Hindus by other Hindus".

Finally, why don't you ask the readers of your post to Google "Shiv Sena attacks" ? Let people Google NUMBER of times Shiv Sena cadres have attacked/vandalized/beat up INNOCENTS for no reason at all. Why don't you talk about that art student from MP who was arrested and the Art dean suspended for "nude paintings"? How about MF Hussein who is in exile? All this when the fucking ancient temples are full of nude paintings.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

Check out the many number of books and articles written by Arun Shourie during his journalistic days I know Shourie's works vry well. Communists hate Shourie and loathe him...

They came into being because the 'State' failed to do its duties and instead abused the citizens. It is a well known fact that the police and the politicians abuse their power and the poor are hapless observers. This was the cause for the naxalites to come into being Bollox. Naxalism is pure and simple terrorism. They are merely a subversive group of thugs and murderers who decided to take over a bunch of colleges and start raping babies. Might want to read about Their gangster leaders Charu Mazumdar and Kanu Sanyal. Kanu Sanyal invented the Naxalite terror tactic (called Yugantar). Sanyal openly admitted that he was a terrorist. He was proud of it. He is no better than Osama bin-Laden and deserves the same fate. Instead, he stands merrily prancing about the country as a statesman.

they are equally reticent about any disruptive actions of the Indian military in Kashmir and the various Kashmiri leaders that are under house arrest Sure, sure, and 9/11 was a joint US/Israeli conspiracy, the 2004 tsunami was secretly planned by the Indian government, and the Protocols of the learned elders of Zion actually happened, right?

/sarcasm

Nice try Osama, but the Indian Military's actions in Kashmir are a response to massive human rights violations by the Islamists against the Kashmiri Hindus, millions of them have been ethnically cleansed by Muslim militants. It is the religious intolerance and racism of the Islamists that brought their fate upon them.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

Hi You are forgetting to inform them about about the "Akhand Bharat" ideology that many (most?) RSS/VHP/SS cadres believe in. Some believe it openly, some in covert (like Advani) You know what it says... come on! You want me to remind you? It calls for subjugation/extermination of all non-hindus in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal to re-create the glorious hindu past. How is this different from Islamic nationalists? Because there is no state backing for Hindus, there are plenty for Muslims."Akhanda Bharat" is irredentist nonsense, and very few people actually subscribe to it. Those lunatics who do are pounced at by the media and then blown out of proportion so as to launch another blood libel'esque attack against the Hindus. It makes the leftists sound all "intellectual" and "progressive" to the ear of their comrades around the world, doesn't it?

RSS and other hindu nationalists openly call for use of nuclear weapons.How is this different from neo-cons in the US or Iran Surrounded by two totalitarian regimes who also posses Nuclear Weapons and openly pine for India's total destructions, I can't say that I blame them, for the same reason why I don't blame the Neoconservatives for safeguarding their interests against a madman like Ahmadinezhad who wants to "wipe Israel off the map/from the pages of history".

I do support a couple of things that these guys say. The Uniform civil code for example. However, if you happen to listen to their leaders speak, it seems they want a Uniform civil code not for the human rights of Muslim women, but just because Hindu men are being denied something that Muslim men aren't! Are they equally concerned about the plight/concerns of Kashmiri Muslims as they are of Kashmiri Pundits? Of course not. No, the UCC is the only solution to the joke that is the present state of Indian "Secularism". Secularism as it is practices in the west is dramatically different from the fraud that is passed of as "Secularism" in India. Secularism is supposed to mean a complete separation of religion and State. The Indian fraud of secularism involves paying Hajj subsidies to Islamists from everybody's tax money while the poor starve and AIDS spreads across the nation, funding madrassas which chant hatred against Hindus and non-Muslim Indians, and standing by a mute witness while Hindus are ethnically cleansed from Kashmir.

And the Dharavi slum is "improved"? Come on! I live less than a kilometer from Dharavi and it's as fucked up as ever.But now with some very filthy and half hearted Apartment complexes. Bacuase your exhalted left wing routinely scuttles attempts at emancipating it's residents.

Google NUMBER of times Shiv Sena cadres have attacked/vandalized/beat up INNOCENTS for no reason at all Google reflects page ranks from Indian media outlets, and, if you read Sita Ram Goel's "India:Secular Theocracy versus Liberal Democracy", you will see how the Indian media abuses their power over the population for disseminating propaganda against Hindus.

How about MF Hussein who is in exile How about Sania Nirza, Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji and the others who are attacked, fatwa'ed and threatened with death in India itself for being "anti_Islam" according to the Indian propaganda machine?

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

RSS's mother organization (ABHM, Godse) killed Gandhi.

And rightly so. Gandhi was a racist (remember what he wrote about Africans), a totalitarian dictator, an anti-Semite (read what he wrote about Jews), a pedophile and a fool. He would have dragged our country back to the middle ages with his "ruralization" nonsense instead of industrializing and modernizing our armies and today we would all be under the authority of the Beijing Politburo. You should be thanking Godse for what he did, get rid of the leader of a personality cult (again, much like Stalin or Mao).

RSS activists indulge in arson, without ANY provocation on every valentines day.

Your tangible that RSS was involved in all those things is... where? Remember, fabricated reports from Communist propaganda outlets and their derivatives don't count, you know. Most of those incidents were
the work of disorganized groups of morons. It is very chic in India today to blame all the ills of society on Hindus. I place as much credibility on them as I would on "Zionist Conspiracy theories".

They participate in every hindu-muslim riot.

In response to Islamist gangsters like Dawood Ibrahim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawood_Ibrahim), Islamil Latif, the Deobandi clerics and the JIH (The Indian division of the REAL fascist Jamaat-e-Islami : http://idp.world-citizenship.org/idp/index.php/wp- archive/50, http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DJ26Df02.h tml)/SIMI (Students Islamic Movement of India: http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/terr oristoutfits/simi.htm) nexus of hatemongers who burn babies alive in trains, bomb other trains in cities and blow up temples of parishioners. For the most part, RSS actually tries to intervene in Muslim-Hindu riots to try to rescue it's victims, but get bashed in the fray. Or is it a lie that the RSS rescued numerous militancy-hit Muslim children in Kashmir, or rescued poor Muslims from floods in Surat while the Islamic Ulema of India watched and laughed because the poor Muslim were lower-caste Dalit Arzal Muslims and the Ashraf upper-caste dominated Islamic Ulema didn't give a rat's ass about them? WHere was the "eternal and all-powerful and all-forgiving Allah" for the Surat flood victims? Nowhere...

Here is an interesting article about a paper written by a Roman Catholic priest (ie a non-Hindu, so there is just about Zero chance of a pro-Hindu bias) on the RSS:

http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19980823/2355 0294.html


Note, in particular, this paragraph.

The conclusion drawn by Fr Kundukulam is that RSS cannot be considered as a nationalist organisation in the sense in which the term `nationalism' is generally interpreted in India. Nationalism represents the collective consciousness of the people transcending all barriers of caste, religion, etc. A nationalist is one who is primarily indebted to the nation. Religion has no place in nationalism. In this sense, Fr Kundukulam argues, RSS whose primary loyalty is to the Hindus can hardly be called a nationalist organisation. In his view, RSS is a multi-faceted organisation which is political, cultural, religious and voluntary in nature and approach. Different facets gain upperhand at different times depending on social and political exigencies.

At the same time, Fr Kundukulam argues against branding the RSS ideology as fascism, Nazism, fun

Re:Mod parent up

[Brad_sk]

Nice writeup dude. Although I am not full supporter of Shivasena, I do agree their good work and their necessity against Islamic politicians in India.

Re:Mod parent up

[pkphilip]

I fully agree with the parent poster that the non-resident indian community has completely lost touch with ground realities in India and are quick to jump to the support of fascist organizations such as the Shiv sena, Bajrang Dal etc.

By the way, I don't know how CPI/Communists even feature in this discussion - they are not at all strong in Maharashtra where Shivsena rules.

Shivsena and the Bajrang Dal are the two organizations which assume a Hindu identity - when actually, most hindus in India are embarrased by the very existence of these organizations. These organizations are known to beat up and vandalize citizens, and are widely considered the must corrupt organizations in India run on the lines of a mafia; the only way they keep their hold on power is by whipping up resentment against some community or the to other. Muslims and Christians are common targets - and then ofcourse anyone who is not from Maharashtra is also a target; anyone who purchases a valentine card or attends a valentines day bash is also an enemy.

I really recommend that you get an education on India and that you stop spouting the hateful statements that fill the NRI's so-called "news" sites.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

I fully agree with the parent poster that the non-resident indian community

I am not a "member of the non-resident Indian community". I am an Indian citizen and was as brainwashed as the average Indian, obsessed more with the sexual conquests of Manisha Koirala than the reality of what's going on in South Asia. I was a Communist in my College days, a fanatic one actually. Even though I didn't realize it, I became the quintessential self-loathing Indian. I hated Hindus, I joined the Communist rallies in praising al-Qaeda when they rammed planes into the twin towers. Like all good Communists, I praised the Taliban when they passed sumptuary laws against Hindus in Afghanistan

(sumptuary laws are laws where Hindus were forced to wear yellow colored badges identifying them as "Hindus", you know, like Jews in Nazi Germany, the same Nazis you accuse Hindus of being. Ironic, isn't it? Your Hindu "Nazis" forced to wear badges).

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/fyi/news/05/22/taleba n.hindus/index.html

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200105/23/eng 20010523_70812.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=%5CForei gnBureaus%5Carchive%5C200106%5CFor20010615b.html

Notice how the US condemned it before India did. If India doesn't care about Hindus then who will?

Hopefully, someday, you will see how dreadfully wrong all this is.

I really recommend that you get an education on India and that you stop spouting the hateful statements that fill the NRI's so-called "news" sites. "hateful statements that fill the NRI's News sites", you mean the truth, perhaps, instead of the hate, lies and sometimes outright fabrications spewed out by the Communist Indian media on a routine basis?

Re:Mod parent up

[pkphilip]

You are buying this BJP propaganda and drinking too much of their Kool-Aid. The media in India can be hardly called communist. Except for two states in India, the communists are pretty much a washed out bunch everywhere.. and even in these two states, their relevance is under question and they no longer enjoy the kind of control they had earlier.

About these sites which you claim to be giving the truth - these were the very same states which whitewashed the Gujarat massacre.. and which continue to paint Narendra Modi as if he is some sort of a hero and messiah - we are talking about the man who has so much contempt for the law and the judicial process that the supreme court had to intervene to decide if the Gujarat massacre cases should be tried outside the state.

Talking about the sumptuary laws in Afghanistan - we are talking about a muslim country with *no* law or order; actually, most muslim countries do not tolerate any other religion other than islam.. Christians/Hindus/Buddhists are all regularly persecuted. But lets talk about India.

The only organizations in India which target people based on their religion are organizations such as the ABVP, Bajrang Dal, RSS, Shivsena etc and one or two extreme muslim groups in specific parts of the country (J&K, sometimes in muslim dominated areas like Hyderabad etc).

The naxals are a different problem altogether - they target everyone - whether muslim, hindu, parsi whatever. Then there are militant groups like the ULFA which are more regionalistic and target people from other states and regions.

But these so-called news sites will depict any attack against any person (who may be Hindu) as an attack against hinduism.. even when it is mounted by groups such as the Naxals, the ULFA etc. At the same time, these very same sites will paint all attacks against non-hindus by groups such as ABVP/BSP/RSS/BD/Shiv sena as a "retaliation" against injustice, as a "drive" against "illegal" activities etc. That is, these sites will try and whitewash the crimes of these hindu organizations while painting every other non-hindu organization as anti-hindu.

You cannot argue that the hindus are being persecuted in India - how is that even possible considering that the hindus are an overwhelming majority in pretty much all parts of India? you cannot also argue that BJP/BSP/ABVP/BD are not actively targetting and assaulting people from other religions - they have even released CDs/DVDs and pamphlets with very anti-muslim content which have been broadly publicised.

This is not an issue of hindus taking pride in themselves (which sounds a lot like the case of the Germans taking pride in their ancestry - you know when this happenned) but it is rather about wanting to dominate and subdue everyone else.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

You are buying this BJP propaganda and drinking too much of their Kool-Aid Wrong. I never went to any BJP rallies, or meetings, or read any of their political material. I merely see the situation as an outside observer (at least, for the moment), and see past the falsifications, logical fallacies, ad-hominem, and other BS spewed by the leftist media. Being a former leftist, I know all their tactics, you see?

About these sites which you claim to be giving the truth - these were the very same states which whitewashed the Gujarat massacre Compared to the rest of India that whitewashed the Wandhama Massacre, the Kaluchak Massacre (both anti-Hindu massacres), the Chittisinghpura Massacre (where Sikhs were massacred by the Islamist Lashkar-e-Toiba, but the media blamed the Hindus, it's like the Indian version of the Shabra and Shattila massacres in the Middle East, where Christians massacred Muslims, but both "conveniently" blamed it on the Jews), the Marad Massacre of Hindu fishermen by Islamists in Kerala, the massacres in the Northeast, the massacres of Hindus in other countries... and, of course, the Godhra Train massacre perpetrated by the radical elements of Ghanchi Muslims in Gujarat that precipitated the tragedy in Gujarat.

You cannot argue that the hindus are being persecuted in India Yes they are. The Evangelical Christian National Liberation front of Tripura in Northeastern India murdered some 13,000 Hindus every year. They explicitly targeted Hindus, even banned Hindus from practising their faith (they banned Diwali statewide).

how is that even possible considering that the hindus are an overwhelming majority in pretty much all parts of India Africans were an overwhelming majority in south Africa, yet they were brutally persecuted by the Boer minority during Apartheid era. So your argument is inherently fallacious. Also, are Hindus really an overwhelming majority? There are no reliable demographics in India to ascertain that for a fact. So many Hindus have been forcibly converted to Islam and Evangelism that their majority status is in grave doubt. There is so much bile and defamation of Hindus in India by the intelligentsia and media that they have been bullied and frightened into silence. Their majority status, if any, is irrelevant. They have a huge boot over their collective faces, in a classic Orwellian motif, forever..

these sites will try and whitewash the crimes of these hindu organizations while painting every other non-hindu organization as anti-hindu. The Catholic Bishops Conference of India is a non-Hindu organization, They work quite productively with the RSS to help with charity activities. The RSS does not portray them as "anti-Hindus" because they're not, obviously. So whose spouting the propaganda here, eh?

Re:Mod parent up

[SenseiLeNoir]

As a Hindu, I can totally say this is nothing to do with religion. Within Hindu Philosophy, it is actually stated very clearly and strongly, that debate and criticism should be honoured. Of course, such criticism should be constructive, and in a debatable form. However, such "censorship" is actually against the philosophy of what is taught, as we are taught to go forth, and study different view points, and come to our own conclusions of the faith we wish to follow, as opposed to being fed a line.

It is through debate, we realised the total idiocy of things such as the caste system, as well as learned from other religions, such as Christianity.

Unfortunately, like many places in the world, there are people who high jack religion for their own means, and propagated by people who do not have the understanding, yet a lot of anger, and feelings of misrepresentation., and Hinduism is not immune from that. It has been known throughout history, for example the persecution of the Bhuddists (a very appalling action by Hindus). However, in all cases, saner minds have always prevailed.

The key point here is that the Hindu priests and Scholars are completely distancing themselves from this, so there is hope that this "mob rule" censorship should cease.

Unfortunately, Hinduism does not have a central authority, unlike other religions; its very similar to the bazaar methodology of Open source, as opposed to the cathedral, with freedom of faith a core principle. So it may take longer. If a priest was to stand up and put down a "law" or "rule" as such, it would have repercussions on the freedom of faith that we hold dear.

Re:Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

Controversial activities of the Shiv Sena - these guys sound like plain old fascists. I'm not sure which one is better, a bunch of angry commies or a bunch of angry fascists...

Re:Mod parent up

[HellFeuer]

First. I have lived in Bombay all my life.

Yes I am well aware of what the Shiv Sena has done for the city. Are you?
If you really know so much, then it can hardly have escaped our attention, that incidents like the one mentioned in the story are something that the Shiv Sena comes up with every other day??? Do you want a list? Since you know so many "facts known to most Mumbaikars" you shouldn't need a reminder, but here goes anyway, in the order that I remember them
-The riots they caused because someone(probably them) smeared tar on an irrelevant statue of the wife of Bal Thackeray. (Ironically, a "fact known to most Mumbaikars" is that Bal Thackery cheated on his wife until the day she died) In any case riots for this? Bus burnings?
-The whole Valentines day bullshit that they keep coming up with every alternate year? Pillaging shops that sell Valentine's day cards??
-O and here's an idea that died quickly: Do you remember the speech Thackeray gave at Shivaji Park where he said that the Marathi people should organize suicide sqauds to fight terrorism? Fortunately he realized the "brilliance" this idea very soon, and it was never mentioned again.
-Burning movie theaters that screen movies they dont like???? Remember Earth?
-Beating up hundreds of immigrants coming to Mumbai because they didnt want "outsiders" "stealing" Marathi jobs??

And those were the minor ones.. how about:
-Unequivocal support for Muslim killings in the Gujarat riots?? (In their mouthpiece newspaper Samana)
-Support for Muslim killings and active participation during the riots in Mumbai?
And if you think these facts are not "known to most Mumbaikars" or you dont believe them, look up Amnesity internationals reports on Hindu -Muslim riots for more..

"render India a totalitarian, communist regime"
Sorry but I must laugh at this. Anyone with ANY knowledge of the Indian political scene will. The "communist" idealogy is pretty dilute now in India. Since you mention Nandigram. Do you know what the basic issue was? The Communist party supported the building of Special Economic Zones by PRIVATE players to entice capitalist PRIVATE companies into the area. The killings are of course unpardonable, but the point I am making is that this is the extent to which communism in India has been diluted, and nobody dreams of totalitarian communist regimes in the traditional sense. And no I am not a communist in any sense.

Are you claiming that Naxalite attacks are NOT reported by Indian media?????? Slowly i begin to suspect that you are an NRI (Non resident Indian to everyone who deosnt know what that is) living in the USA and with that irritating tendency to preach about matters that they know nothing about. Please correct me if I am wrong.
What is certain however, is that Naxalite attacks are very much reported.

And Nandigram... OMFG do you know what you are talking about??? This was all over the news. The news channels obsessed about it day and night until it was pouring out my ears???? Once again.. do you live in India??? On what basis are you saying the media did not report this??

Re:Mod parent up

[prash_n_rao]

Unfortunately, yes.

Re:Mod parent up

[prash_n_rao]

(sumptuary laws are laws where Hindus were forced to wear yellow colored badges identifying them as "Hindus", you know, like Jews in Nazi Germany, the same Nazis you accuse Hindus of being. Ironic, isn't it? Your Hindu "Nazis" forced to wear badges). Ironic? Maybe... a bit ;-). I'll now answer your sarcasm: Your logic is flawed. Just because some Hindus are oppressed in one part of the world does not mean that other Hindus cannot be oppressors in another part of the world.

Notice how the US condemned it before India did. If India doesn't care about Hindus then who will? If all the Indian government has to do is condemn something, well, the government should have. And just as quickly as it condemns other human rights violations in other parts of the world.

I see no particular reason why my tax money should go into "caring for Hindus" outside India. India should care for Indians - Hindus or not. I would prefer it if India gave away only its surplus of "caring" to Hindus (or others) who are not citizens of India.

Sure, like you said in another place, I disagree with money going into funding travels to Haj, etc. However, I see no reason why Hindus (among others) can claim tax exemptions for donating to religious institutions. Hindus in India just cannot claim that the government does not care for their religion. Moreover, it would take me days to enumerate the times when free-speech was silenced to please Hindu fanatics (and fanatics of other religions too) just because it hurt their religious sentiments. [Which brings us back to the topic that's being discussed in this /. article]

You keep labelling it "Communist Indian media" - quite frequently . Well, I would really like it if you could show me some evidence that it is. But please, no conspiracy theories - that would be a waste of my time.

Re:Mod parent up

[rtechie]

Naxalism is pure and simple terrorism. They are merely a subversive group of thugs and murderers who decided to take over a bunch of colleges and start raping babies. I don't know much about the Naxalites, but I do know that they are definitely not "raping babies" because doing so is physically impossible. This is simply hysterical anti-communist propoganda unless you can present video that proves otherwise.

My reading on the Naxalites is that they are typical communist insurgent groups, similar perhaps to Columbia's FARC. Much like in Columbia, India is awash in warring militant groups, with government sponsored militia fighting the communists increasing the violence.

Re:Mod parent up

[g8oz]

Takes XChristX with a grain of salt. Shiv Sena and its ilk are a gang of right wing extremists prone to conspiracy theories with a divisive "Hinduism Uber Alles" agenda.

These types of movements are common when a nation urbanizes and peoples' sense of identity and what it is composed of are perceived to be under siege. Hopefully India will grow out it.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

You keep labelling it "Communist Indian media" - quite frequently . Well, I would really like it if you could show me some evidence that it is. But please, no conspiracy theories - that would be a waste of my time.

Really? How about "Frontline", supposedly India's "National Magazine"? Little more than a propaganda adjunct of the (anti)-Hindu, another rag referred to as India's "National Newspaper". Essentially a bunch of op/eds and pseudo-journalism concocted up by a group of partisan hacks. Filled with rhetoric, bile and hatred against Hindus (Praful Bidwai, Kancha Ilaiah, etc. etc.), support for worldwide terrorism, hateful anti-Americanism, third-worldism and, more recently, anti-Semitic bile against Jews and Israel.Article after article distorts and fabricates information in the classic style of Soviet propaganda, and th masses in India buy into it.

Numerous outside observer have commented on how there is a far-left bias in a lot of the Indian media. Although there are some non-partisan news sources (rediff etc.) they are few and far between and limited in readership compared to Frontline and the (anti)-Hindu.

However, there is a decline of the left in India. Something which the newspapers deliberately avoid reporting. While the political parties professing Left ideology have done well in the past elections in India , it is undeniable that the Left movement there is in deep stupor. The Leftist intellectuals recognize the electoral success of the CPI-CPIM as arising from factors severely limited in the spacio-temporal sense. Thrown in a disarray from a host of intrinsic and extrinsic factors, the Leftist intellectual today in India is the very personification of a man demoralized by failure to realize the Utopian ideal, broken by the failure of logic to transcend strict boundaries, and confounded by the unraveling of plans previously endowed with 'historical inevitability'.
The Marxists in order to stress their broad-mindedness have inculcated a tendency to self-abuse. The denigration of every aspect of Indian life (culture, history and other elements of heritage) is glorified and recognized as a step forward in the progressive path. Such a retrograde step has led to severe attrition in the ranks of the Leftists. It has also planted seeds of confusion in the minds of the remaining ones as they attempt to unsuccessfully reconcile the unmask-able grandeur of Indian history with the contempt Marxism ingrains in them towards the same. [It was a similar sense of anti-egoism that made Mikhail Gorbachev unravel the Soviet empire.]
A great tragedy to befall Marxism in India is the control of its adherents by the nationalists of India 's adversary nations. Hence the proponents of world brotherhood have been transformed into Chinese and Pakistani nationalists. This subversion, badly disguised under the banner of 'progressive self-criticism' has completely eroded the support base of the movement within India .
The most unconscionable decision taken by the Marxists worldwide has been the embracing of radical Islam and support rendered to it in all manners. This has been justified in three ingenuous ways:
Radical Islam shares with the communists a fierce hatred for the Western world. The communists who believe that the Americans thwarted the worldwide revolution in the 1950s see the current age as payback time where rising Islam would bring down the capitalist West to its knees. However, it is being overlooked that the capitulation of the West would end the very base from where the Communists preach their philosophy and Weltanschauung.
Islamic Fundamentalism is regarded by the Communists as being the very anti-thesis of logic. They are convinced that an Islamic interlude would lead to a final Communist earth, as the intellectuals in each Islamic nation would rise against its patently visible logical fallacies. The communists seem to forget at their peril the plight of their brethren in Islamic Pakistan and Islamic Bangladesh.
An inexplic

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

..So, it seems, are self-hating Indians who pander to racists.

Re:Mod parent up

[prash_n_rao]

Umm... no.

I'll explain: I was agreeing to a valid point made by the parent poster - "all of whose posts supporting censorship have been modded up" and in his case, his counter-argument was modded as "troll". (IMO, wrongly - I do not see it as trolling). "self-hating Indians who pander to racists" are not getting mod points either. So they are NOT running /.

I do not see what statement of his was racist. I do not see what statement of mine indicates I am a self-hating Indian. But, even if I agree with these two premises of yours (which I don't), what I did could be called "pandering" only with dubious certainty.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

That prick got modded down for being a Hindu-baiting hatemonger and troll, and rightly so. Equating Casteism with racism (a well-known politically mischevious and scientifically nonsensical ploy, there are no consistent physical or genetic features that differentiate the castes, read some damn papers by Andre Beteille , Bernard Buber and MN Srinivas on the subject) and attacking some pretty deeply-held and largely harmless beliefs like cow worship (if anybody attacked the divinity or historicity of Christ or Mohammed they would be modded down as "anti-Christian" or "anti-Islam" so why not this also?). I don't support censorship, and never did in any of my posts. I just think that it is a bit hypocritical to attack Shiv Sena for wanting to censor anti-Hindu content, when the Communist and Islamist Ulama censored the works of Taslima Nasreen, Sita Ram Goel, Salman Rushdie and so many others on the grounds of being "anti-Islamic" and nobody batted a bloody eye. Says something about the effects of mass media and propaganda. For once, Noam Chomsky was right. Fuck!

Re:Mod parent up

[pkphilip]

I think we need to take this discussion outside Slashdot as it is apparently only viewed by both of us.

One big problem with a lot of these so-called news sites is that they imply that there is some sort of a global conspiracy on to somehow subjugate the Hindus. They believe that a lot of people are now part of this conspiracy.

The problem with this theory is this: There is simply no motive.

Let me illustrate:

1. About the Godhra massacre - many of the so-called leftist news sites which you claim to have whitewashed these incidents are all run by Hindus. Most of the journalists who portrayed the facts as it occurred and from the ground (ex: Bharka Dutt, Rajdeep Sardesai etc..) are all Hindus. What do you think they stand to gain by whitewashing a massacre? These same organizations also chronicled the problem at Marad.

Come to think of it - how many news organizations do you know which are run by non-hindus in India? Name a single major paper, TV news channel etc. How many journalists and news anchors do you know who are not hindus? Are you claiming that *ALL* these hindus (who I am sure still maintain their hindu customs) have all sold their soul and have turned against their own religion? The odds of this happening is very, very small.

Consider the more probable case - that these people are actually stating the facts. I think this is far more probable than the case when hundreds of journalists and media people who belong to competing organizations becoming a part of a single global conspiracy against hindus.

About Godhra - why are you ignoring the evidence that this definitely did not happen the way the Gujarat government stated it did? Aren't you aware that multiple investigations conducted by the government, and by an independent group of engineers (which included mostly hindus) all pointed out that the Gujarat government was basically stating a lie? The only group of people who are stating the Gujarati governments story are the Gujarat Police, the Gujarat government and these so-called news sites.

Consider the fact that many human rights groups both Indian and foreign have pointed fingers at the Gujarat government. Consider the fact that hardly anyone has been convicted even though so many people were killed in broad daylight. Consider also the fact that the Supreme Court considered a petition to transfer the Godhra cases out of Gujarat. Consider also the statements made by the Supreme Court justices against the Gujarat government and against Modi specifically.

2) The allegation of being "leftist" has been used a lot in the past to justify violence against minority groups worldwide. For instance, this allegation is used by the Republicans and the Christian Right in the US to rubbish the articles put out by papers such as the Washington Post, New York Times etc against the Iraq war etc. The same allegation was used in the past against moderates in places like Germany (during the holocaust), by the US administration in the McCarthy witchhunts and it is now being used by the ultra nationalist forces in India to subjugate moderates. Please do not fall for this trap.

I am not in anyway stating that the media is somehow magically without any bias or any hidden agendas. But a simple fact of life is that people only hold onto agendas which benefit them directly; for instance, it is fairly well known that the media is willing to intrude on the privacy of people, and conduct sting operations - what if the same were to be done to them? they would cry out about restricting press freedom etc. But when it comes to your suggestion that they hold an agenda against the largest demography in India (Hindus) in favour of the minorities who form a very small part of the population (under

Please do not go by such "reports".

6. A lot of people are being killed across the world by various madmen. For instance, some muslim militants are targeting buddhists in Thailand now. We also have clear stories of persecution against any other religion in the Islamic

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

One big problem with a lot of these so-called news sites is that they imply that there is some sort of a global conspiracy on to somehow subjugate the Hindus.

You mean like the BBC (which is usually leftist pro-Islamist), and buffalo.edu, and rediff?Whose pot have you been smoking dude? I never quoted any sites with a possibility of partisanship, not without qualification. I restrict to scholarly papers and reliable articles on the subject, citing views and opinions violently censored by the lefties running India today.

Since you mention "Conspiracy Theories", did you know that it is the left wing hate rag (misidentifying itself as) the "Dalit Voice" that routinely touts anti-Semitic Conspiracy theories in India? DId you know that they equate Hindus with Jews and call both slime? Did you know that their leader, a hatemonger named VT Rajshekhar, sells copies of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (an infamous anti-Semitic conspiracy hoax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_ Elders_of_Zion)

Did you know that Muslim newspapers like "Slasat" and "Milligazette" routinely claim that there is a "vast global conspiracy" of Hindus and Zionist bankers to "secretly take over the world" (in the style of the infamous anti-Semitic forgery the protocols of the learned elders of Zion)? Did you know that Evangelical missionaries, inspired by the protocols, are circulating forged documents alleging that RSS is secretly controlling the government in India?

Did you know that Communists on Indian television routinely "compare" Jews to Hindus, calling both "Filthy" "Lazy" and "Greedy"? Here is an article by Professor Nathan Katz at Florida International University, Miami about it (http://www.jcpa.org/cjc/cjc-katz-f05.htm), note the paragraph:

During my last stay in India I was watching television one night. I tuned in a bit late and heard a person in a discussion program saying: 'The Jews are just like the Brahmins.' I smiled until he continued, saying that: 'The Brahmins are as bad as the Jews. They are bloodsuckers like the Jews and a blight on humanity.' Then I saw that his name was framed at the bottom of the screen and that he was one of the leaders of the Communist party. It was Marx's essay on the Jewish question that he was spouting back and applying to the Brahmins.

So Communists are the real Nazi bigots, not Hindus.

They believe that a lot of people are now part of this conspiracy.

There is no conspiracy in the sense that there is no great secrecy. The India-bashing lobbies operate quite openly. You should read reports by the (non-Hindu) American Jewish Committee (http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/11/17/pane lPromotesUnderstanding)

How about the Simon Weisenthal Center in the United States? No Hindus there either. They studied and endorsed the HAF report (reported here, a non-NRI site http://www.pacificmagazine.net/news/2006/07/18/was hingtondc-second-annual-report-on-hindu-human-righ ts-released)
that clearly shows that Hindus are being heavily and mercilessly persecuted. Read the full damn report here (http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/reports.ht m#hhr2005).

What "Conspiracy Theory"? There is no conspiracy. It's all being done quite openly. Numerous anti-hindu forces, the leftists, Islamists and some radical Evangelical missionaries, have come together to persecute Hindus.

About the Godhra massacre - many of the so-called leftist news sites which you claim to ha

Re:Mod parent up

[pkphilip]

One disclaimer right at the start - I have some Jewish ancestry.

About Rediff.com - you cannot seriously be quoting rediff as a reliable source. Buffalo.edu and BBC - when did they state that there is a global conspiracy against Hindus?

Talking about the Dalit Voice, the Dalit Panther etc - these are fringe groups with well known biases. This is similar to quoting Fox News as a reliable source for accurate analysis on the Iraq war. Is it any surprise that these websites spout venom?

And what about Slasat, Milla-whatever - these are similar to Dalit Voice; that is, these are not mainline media sites. These are fringe groups.

Do you want a list of groups who spout venom against the Christians: Consider the following: www.christianaggression.org,

On the topic of anti-semitism - the primary problem the Communists have always had with the Jews is because they see jews as backers of the capitalist western nations. Partnering with a capitalist system, is seen by the communists, as putting down the labour class. By the way, it is true that a large part of the financial systems in the world are controlled by people with jewish roots. JP Morgan, Citigroup, Chase Manhattan (the three primary bankers who own controlling interests in the Federal Bank of the US) were all started by jews and are still controlled by Jews. Also, organizations such as the Rockefeller Foundation, BIS etc have a large number of jews on their boards.

The anti-semitism comes from this mistaken notion that since jews are backers of the capitalist nations, that they must inherently be evil.

The communist leaning towards muslim nations (though these nations are far less friendly towards the labour class than are western nations) comes from the fact that the muslim nations have seen jews as the enemy. This animosity that muslims feel towards the jews goes back hundreds of years. The nation of Israel has done many things over the past decades to further antagonize the muslims.

For the communist, the dictum "enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies and therefore they see muslim nations as friends and partners.

The same dictum applies for ultra-radical hindu outfits such as the RSS. RSS sees muslims as their enemy and therefore they see Israel (which is seen as opposed to the muslim nations) as their friend. It is in this context that the RSS spouts pro-israeli statements.

There is a satirical note on this which you might find funny:
http://www.satirewire.com/news/may02/hinjews.shtml

About your note about "self-hating" Indians. I am an Indian. It is just a little strange that I also do have Jewish roots and am a Christian. I have a lot of friends who are Hindus - incidentally, I also have a friend who is an office bearer in the RSS. I also have a lot of muslim friends as well as jewish friends.

The reason I look upon the Shiv sena with contempt is not because I am a self-hating Indian who is ashamed of his existence. But it is because they think it is ok to preach against violence using violence. They also concoct stories if required.

If the RSS/ABVP/BJP/whatever believes that something on Orkut is against their beliefs/their leader etc, they have the freedom and the right to put up documents countering the claims. Instead, they prefer to intimidate and rough up people, destroy businesses etc. And after all that, they expect no one to criticize them.

I also find it strange that organizations such as RSS which talks about the criminal activities of SIMI, regularly trains their cadres in the use of arms. They practise regularly using sticks, swords etc. I know this from first hand experience of seeing them. If you are a peaceful organization, why do you need to arm your cadres?

By the way, trusting the Gujarati government report on Godhra because they have the best roads makes as much sense as expecting the Nazis to give a non-partisan report on the jews because they had the best

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

Yes, I was wondering when the Golwalkar quotes would resurface as another anti-RSS attack. Read this for the truth about THAT: ahref=http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articl es/fascism/Nazi6GurujiWithdrawn.htmlrel=url2html-3 0679http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles /fascism/Nazi6GurujiWithdrawn.html>. RSS disownes all that nonsense decades ago. Marxists only use it as a tool to attack and villify RSS>

But surely this meant that Golwalkar supported the German hatred for the Semitic races, the Jews? Not at all. In his survey of nations whose experience and nationalism are to serve as a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to profit by, the very first one is the Jewish nation (1939:19, 30; 1947:25, 37). This was and is standard fare in Hindutva writings, starting with Vinayak Damodar Savarkars trail-blazing book Hindutva (1923), which speaks out in favour of the Zionist project. Hindu nationalists have always looked up to the mettle of the Jews, who managed to maintain their identity for two thousand years under adverse circumstances, and who even managed to revive Hebrew as their mother tongue and national first language, where Hindus arent even able to promote Sanskrit to the status of national link language or pan-Indian second language. Hindu nationalist parties have always advocated diplomatic recognition of Israel when Congress (until 1992) and the Communist parties opposed it. Did you know that both Savarkar and Golwalkar were supporters of Zionism and Israel? At a time when Gandhi spat hatred against Jews and the Communists, in order to pander to the Muslim vote bank, refused to recognize Israel, Hindu Nationalists supported the Jewish State.You are a Christian. You know that G-d promised Israel to the Jews in the Torah, right?

Re:Mod parent up

[pkphilip]

I am not a marxist (by the way, Karl Marx was a jew) and my opinions have nothing to do with Marx.

By the way, only Koenraad Elst can believe that the statements that Golwalkar made glorifying the German action of "purifying" the race does not make him (Golwalkar) a fascist. What happenned in Germany was ethnic cleansing; and Golwalkar did glorify it. In Golwalkar's opinion and that of the RSS, the minorities must give up *any* rights of a citizen to continue in India. If that is not fascism, I don't know what is.

It is just a nature of the RSS that it can take widely contradictory stances - on the one hand they say that Germans were right in pursuing the path of "purifying" the race, but at the same time they say they support the Jews. The fact that Koenraad Elst can't see the problem with this indicates that his opinion on the subject may not be entirely objective.

Also, by the way, the RSS did withdraw the book after years of publication. But the fact that Golwalkar wrote the book is not disputable.

As to whether G_d promised the land of Israel to the Jews - ofcourse, I believe that. What Israel has managed to achieve is unimaginable considering that some of the best brains were killed during the holocaust.

Palestinians have given the Israelis a very hard time. However, it is also true that some of the actions of the Israeli government weren't right. That is the case in almost any conflict - no one party is entirely right in their actions towards the other.

The problem I have with the ultra-radical hindutva movement is this - they see that minorites are always at fault and must be subjugated. They believe that the minorites are trying to subdue the hindus because of inaction on the part of the hindu. They believe that if the hindu started to love himself/herself and took pride in the fact that he is hindu (and also simultaneously look down on the religion of others), then he/she will somehow escape the "tyranny" imposed on the hindus by the minority.

Hedgewar as well as Golwalkar thought that the low self-esteem and the self-hatred of the hindus is responsible for the fact that a small group of people from Britain were able to hold the entire India under slavery. They miss one obvious fact - the millions of Indians were controlled by a small group of kings, zamindars and leaders. All the British had to do was to topple these small groups of leaders and then they could control the entire country.

The deeply ingrained caste system had ensured that the average Indian had very little control over his own destiny - the vast majority had no access to education, was in bondage to the higher caste and condemned to work in the fields and in the villages with no hope for improving their future.

As far as the common man went, the kings were tyrannically well before the British ever came to India and to have one group of tyrants replaced by another group of tyrants wasn't such a bad deal for them.

One of the good things that RSS tried to do was to treat the people equally no matter what their caste. The caste system was so pervasive that it has even infiltrated christianity in India. if they had stuck to destroying the caste system, we may have had a much better India now. However, the weakness was that they got caught up with seeing themselves as hindus and not as Indians.

It is good and fine to talk about how Israel formed a nation though the jews had been persecuted so much. However, you cannot fully understand it unless you see what the jews themselves did.

The jews had come from different parts of the world and in pretty much every part they had been heavily persecuted. Even after the end of World War 2, Britain still continued to persecute the jews and were unwilling to let the jews have the land of Israel. Even before the nation of Israel could be formed, the jews were already battling to stay alive against the Arabs who were trying to drive them from Israel. Many thousands died in these battles.

Because there was nothing left, every

Re:Mod parent up

[pkphilip]

This discussion has been going on for some time, I think it may be a good time to end it. If you need to reach me, I can be reached on pkphilip (at) gmail.com

To state my point of view:

All people groups across the world have done evil at some point in history - no matter how you define a people group; whether it is by religion, language, region etc. Followers of *ALL* religions have done evil at some point or the other - Christians have (example: the crusades), Muslims have, the hindus have, etc.

And it is also true that as long as individuals are not perfect, that people will continue to be imperfect. We will all continue to do things which are children may be ashamed off.

Again, it is also true that people will believe in very different things; what seems right to one is completely unacceptable to others.

So it is not my intention to point faults in your belief or in the beliefs of organizations that you support. But I do feel that we we should be free to disagree with each other. I am not implying in any way that we should stop trying to convince others of our own view point; I think we should have the freedom to use any decent means to engage in conversation, but the use of force to enforce ones belief on others should not be allowed.

I am against any use of force; I am against forced conversions (and re-conversions), I am against dharnas being called up anytime anyone is criticized, I am against militancy, I am against rule by a mob. If anyone is criticized, the supporters of the person who is criticized can debate the issue with the person raising the criticism without calling for violence. Ex: if RSS has a problem with the Pope, they should be able to criticize publicly without anyone/any organization attacking the RSS.. and similarly if any one criticizes anyone in the Sangh Parivar, the Sangh Parivar should be able to deal with it in a civilized manner.

I hope that clears up my stand.

Re:Mod parent up

[XchristX]

by the way, Karl Marx was a jew

His Jewishness hardly absolves him of the charge of antisemitism. MArx was most definitely an antisemite (a self-hating Jew, perhaps?).

By the way, only Koenraad Elst can believe that the statements that Golwalkar made glorifying the German action of "purifying" the race does not make him (Golwalkar) a fascist.

Golwalkar made no such glorification when his statement is taken in context. He merely stated the facts of what was going on in the Reich (when most of the western world was denying it). We can certainly "profit from the lessons of the Reich", that is to say, to NOT REPEAT THEM. Creating an ethnic Hindu State is a solution to prevent such a holocaust of Hindus.

What happenned in Germany was ethnic cleansing; and Golwalkar did glorify it

Actually, it was not ethnic cleansing, it was a genocide. The two are different things. It is the antisemites who claim that it was merely "ethnic cleansing", a claim that stands totally discredited by mainstream scholars. Golwalkar glorified nothing of the sort. Besides, how could anyone kill off 150 million Muslims and several million Xtians in India anyways? It's physically impossible short of using some sort of WMD, and that would kill off almost as many Hindus.Golwalkar merely said that its not always possible for different and sometimes conflicting cultures to coexist, a claim that is, point of fact, SHARED by the Zionist movement (the whole point of Zionism was to reduce antisemitism by creating a SEPARATE Jewish state). Golwalkar said (to paraphrase) that non-Hindus must not persecute Hindus. They must learn to respect our right to exist and try to coexist, and that Hindus do the same to them. If persecution of Hindus continues then Hindus will have no choice but to take sterner measures after some fracture point. He was advising a course that would avoid ethnic conflict, not cause it. The fact that nobody understood what he was trying to say anddeliberately misinterpreted him is the cause of all this..

Also, by the way, the RSS did withdraw the book after years of publication. But the fact that Golwalkar wrote the book is not disputable.

Neither is the fact that lefties and Muslims routinely abuse this to villify and attack Hindus (even though Golwalkar hardly endorsed the Reich and, in fact, repudiated and condemned antisemitism in several parts of "We"). In stark contrast, nobody in India criticizes Muslims for supporting the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who actively collaborated with Hitler, recruited Muslims into the Waffen Schultzstaffel and activel aided in the holocaust. Nor do they criticize Sayyid Abdul ala-Mawdudi, the founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami. Mawdudi openly admired both Hitler and Mussolini and modelled his delusions of the "Islamic theodemocracy" on the basis of the Nazi regime. Yet, he is a hero in India. Mmuslims revere him as a saint, in Pakistan he is a national symbol, and leftists in India hang on his every sentence. Why is that? Hm?

they see that minorites are always at fault and must be subjugated

Nonsense. Nobody in the Hindutva movement whose sane says so. There may be some nutjobs who assert such things, but judging the entire Hindu Nationalist movement on the words of some nutbags (and I would count some elements of Shiv Sena and most of Bajrang Dal as among the nutjobs) is like judging Zionism on the basis of the actions of Baruch Goldstein and Meir Kahane...

The deeply ingrained caste system had ensured that the average Indian had very little control over his own destiny - the vast majority had no access to education, was in bondage to the higher caste and condemned to work in the fields and in the villages with no hope for improving their future.

Yup. A Caste system aggressively enforced by the Islamic rulers through the Jajmani system and the division of the Islamics into "Ashraf", "Ajlaf" and "Arzal" castes through the Fatwaa-i-Zahandari, not to me

Re:pfft...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Specifics aside, this kind of thing is just another piece of why India (as opposed to China, Vietnam etc.) remains all talk and no action." A little bit of education would help. The media is reporting this news in India. In China there is no media. In India, this is a particular group not the Govt. In China, it would be the Govt.

"Would you, as an American or EU business owner want to set up shop in a country where these types of things are routine events?" Every country has its share of Ku Klux Klans. BTW, as far as the political reach of these parties go, they are not even 1% the size of the Klan (in its heydays). An educated Indian is as ashamed of these guys as an educated American is ashamed of the Klan.

Re:pfft...

[bobsil1]

Ah yes - the United States. The 'guardian of freedom'... for the last 6 years.

The U.S. continues to prove itself incapable of shaking off such middle ages thinking and it is time the rest of the world stopped listening to the hype about how it is ready to sit at the table. Let them continue to sit in Guantanamo if they like it so much.

Some Perspective

[dhavleak]

It's very important to note that this is not the Indian Government issuing some decree to close down net cafes. This is a relatively marginal/local political party from a single state in India (Maharashtra) that is making these demands (or perhaps threats is a better word). Don't equate this with say, the Chinese govt. removing all references to Tienanmen square wherever they can -- that stuff doesn't fly in India. Even this won't for that matter - nobody is going to acquiesce to these stupid demands. To give you some perspective -- its similar to Bush's loony idea to have intelligent design taught in schools. Except that the Shiv Sena (the political party that is trying to block Orkut) doesn't have anywhere close to the sort of support the Republicans have -- they will never be able to expand (significantly) beyond their one state and are generally a disliked party (there are, of course, exceptions that prove the rule).

"Hate" "Bashing". What the religionists will do...

[Catbeller]

Always the same: the religionists decry any intellectual anathema as "hate" or "bashing", then proceed to hate and bash our skulls in.

Religion is the only mind game we play that demands that no one, NO ONE debates the central tenets, or ELSE. This would be because without that special, violent, protection, they would rapidly shrivel and die, as their kids grew up learning that the story about how a man was given a the middle east because he beat a fairy in a wrestling contest was, let's say, not real. They want no challenges, because deep in their little baseball bat-carrying souls, they know that they believe in nonsense. They are always a hair's width away from realizing that they are worshiping meteorites, zombie fishermen, multi-armed statues, and some tablets that some horny nineteenth century con artist claimed to have seen that told him to have as many 16 year old wives as he could carry away. Let's not even start on L. Ron Hubbard, the man who conned himself...

Re:pfft...

[chip_0]

As an Indian I can say this, India has been the country with perhaps the most lopsided development you could ever hope to see. While there is a liberal mindset among atleast a decent fraction of the educated population, the life of the majority hasn't changed over many years, so what you see is organisations like shiv sena (the ku klux klan of our country) barking at each chance, and actually getting the support of people who feel threatened by this strange development structure. There are worse forms of censorship taking place here, a film was banned in Gujurat earlier this year because it focussed on the Godhra riots (the major disaster so far in the fascist gujarat government regime). Sites like blogspot are banned in entirety all over the country and (as mentioned) the shiv sena goons seem to take pleasure in destruction on every valentines day. Half of the country is in the 21'st century, but half is far behind, and untill that changes, these things are not going to go away.

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[whackeroony]

I am feeding the troll (sigh!) but well here it goes. I am an Indian and you, AC, are full of crap.

India may be a democracy, but it is not a Western nation. Being a democracy does not mean that a nation is a democracy. Look at Singapore.

The first sign that the AC is out of his league. Yes, India is not a perfect democracy ( who is anyway? ) but comparing it to Singapore - a small island nation whose citizens themselves consider the polls to be a sham (wiki link here ) - is a complete joke. Come on, at least India does not have a one-party government that tries to sue the opposition into oblivion.

India, as any other democracy, has its share of nutjobs. The BVS and Shiv Sena, as has been pointed out by other posters, are essentially groups of uneducated riff-raff that try to present themselves as nationalists to distinguish themselves from common thugs ( which they are in reality ). They have little influence beyond Mumbai.

In the India of today, honor killings are so widespread that it is a national pasttime. An honor killing is murdering a wife because her family has not provided sufficient dowry to the husband.

No my dear AC. Honor killings are not what you presented (link). They are women that are killed if they are suspected to have brought dishonor to the family (unwanted pregnancy, etc.). They are extremely rare in India and are more a part of life of our friends across the border in Pakistan ( and other such Islamic societies) than ours.

What you did state about dowry killings(link) is exaggerated. While it is true that bride burning is still present in India, due to many high-profile convictions in the recent past, it is abhorred widely and the burden of proof is on the suspected in-laws. However, unfortunately, dowry as a social phenomenon still exists in India.:(

Finally, the Indians are aggressively building nuclear weapons.

Having been attacked by 2 totalitarian neighbours (who are allied strongly with each other) 4 times in the last 50 years is not a good enough excuse ? Then, pray, why do the United States and Russia, which are far removed from their enemies, have the largest nuclear arsenals in the world ? Anyway, having nuclear devices without a proper delivery system can hardly be considered aggressive.

So, India is a democracy, but it is not a Western nation.

So, you took all this effort to point out the obvious. As we say in north India, shabaash mere puttar ! ( well done, my son !)

Coming back to the topic, as I said before, this is a very local event. The Economic Times is HQ-ed in Mumbai which is why it has received more prominence than necessary. From my personal experience, I can speak of places with worse kinds of restrictions in India. There are hamlets controlled by some political party/ religious group/ communists where information from the outside world, in any form, is not allowed unless they are filtered by the party thugs. But, I would be more worried by the fact that most of rural India, if they ever cared, would not be able to connect to orkut because of the pathetic infrastructure in those parts, rather than being banned from doing so by a collection of retards.

My INR 10

Re:"Hate" "Bashing". What the religionists will do

[Antique Geekmeister]

Goodness, sir. Unfortunately, it's difficult to tell you from a troll planted by the scientologists to make this discussion look like a bunch of hateful critics so they can claim "Look, look! He's oppressing me!".

Don't insult "believers", don't call them names. It just makes them feel isolated and harassed and as if they're justified in tuning out any criticism as being from "enemies". Expose fraud and criminality but remain your charming self with them. Liberate by example, not by berating: it lasts longer and is more safe and pleasant for all concerned. That's good advice for dealing with any fanatics of religious or political belief.

This Story Is Not About "Nationalists"

[Skippi Sunshine]

It's about RELIGION and should be labelled as such. Don't be such pansies, Slashdot. Call religious lunatics what they are. Don't hide them as "nationalists."

Re:This Story Is Not About "Nationalists"

[Jugalator]

I agree, it seems much more like they're vigorously protecting their religion, not their nation.

Obscure words explained

[Old Wolf]

Orkut is a social networking site
Shiv Sena is a Hindu fundamentalist group
Canard presumably means a deliberately false story, in this context.

Re:pfft...

[edittard]

In India, we are free to express and actively promote our views - and that includes morons such as these RSS guys.

When most people hear the phrase "actively promote" they'd think you mean freedom of speech. What your pals in the RSS are doing is violent coercion. Nice sleight of hand equating the two, but no cigar.

"Your God" - singular?

[Anonymous Coward]

your God

I think you're rather missing the point of (polytheistic) Hinduism,

Re:"Your God" - singular?

[metlin]

Actually, Hinduism has only one God (prajapati) and several god-forms (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) and several incarnations of those god-forms.

omfg, are you retarded?

[Anonymous Coward]

Either you're totally out of touch with reality, stupid, or both.

Why are all Presidential candidates Christian? Maybe it's because the vast majority of the country is Christian. According to the CIA factbook for the US, approximately 80% of the population are Christian. Are you REALLY that surprised that a Presidential candidate actually *gasp* reflects the religion of the country? (In case you're wondering, I'm an atheist.)

People question why the US is involved in the "War on Terror" /every freaking day/. Not a day goes by that someone isn't demonstrating against it on my University campus, or a joke isn't told somewhere on TV, the Internet, or on a bumper sticker, which somehow questions our involvement in Iraq, Bush, or the Republican party in general. Have you ever even WATCHED any of the political satire shows? Clearly you haven't, or else you'd have never made a such a stupid and obviously incorrect comment. PLENTY of people question the war on terror without being figuratively stoned to death.

I think it's more likely that you simply have a misconception of what freedom of speech and freedom of religion are. Your freedom of religion doesn't say the President has to be non-Christian. You can merrily post your anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-whatever views on your blog, publish them in a paper, write them in a book, speak them on the streets, whatever the hell you want. So uh yeah, DO you just hate us for our freedoms?

Re:omfg, are you retarded?

[WIAKywbfatw]

Dear, AC, thanks for your concern about my mental health. For your information, I'm not retarded. Bravo for not only hiding behind the AC option but for starting your reply with an ad hominem attack.

The US, whether you like it or not, is one of the few countries in the world where someone's religion dictates whether or not they can seriously run for office.

Polls have been taken on the subject and, when asked, something like 52 percent of Americans have said that they would not vote for an aethiest. That alone shows how much of a ceiling your religion (or lack thereof) poses in the US. Neither of the two main political parties would even consider nominating a non-Christian candidate because his/her religion alone would lose them the race: policies and job suitability wouldn't even factor into it.

Compare that to anywhere else in the developed world. I live in the UK, and I can tell you that we wouldn't give a fig what religion someone was before voting for or against them. We certainly wouldn't be using religious litmus tests as you do in the US.

Creationism? Abortion? Seperation of church and state but "One nation under God", and with the motto "In God we trust"?

As for politics and policies, I can give you clear examples of how serious political debate has been stifled in the US post-September 11th. Perhaps you missed the instances of TV shows being cancelled because of comments people made questioning what was going on and why it was happening? Or how any voice raised in dissent was shouted down as anti-American? Don't you remember any of that?

What was wrong with asking why the US was attacked in the first place? Are you seriously telling me that that's been questioned by anybody outside the fringes?

It's only now that this shit has been going on for years and it's cost the lives of over 3,000 US troops (hey, let's not think about the 100,000s of dead Iraqi civilians - they clearly don't count) that serious questions are given more than short shrift by the mainstream media.

(Still, though, the lunatics running the asylum see nothing wrong. And the lunatics wanting to replace them aren't any better: the eight Republican nominees were asked whether knowing what they know now if they would have done anything differently in Iraq, to which none of them had the common sense to say "yes". Even after seeing the disasterous consequences of the path that they've travelled, they'd still go down that road again.)

Elsewhere, District Attorneys are being fired for political purposes. But, of course, when it's discovered, the people in charge have "no recollection" of what happened.

I won't even talk about voter disenfranchisement. Go read up on that before you comment again though.

Of course, I'm sure you'll say that none of that counts. To be honest, if it wasn't helping to screw the rest of us, I wouldn't give a shit. But it does, so I'm telling you, as a friend, this shit is happening, and it does you no favours to be lecturing the world on religious and political freedoms when your own country's record in that area is far from perfect.

The politics of the US aren't any better than that of anywhere else. If you, like the person who I initially replied to, truly consider the US to be a place where religious and political freedoms are respected then you're looking through rose-tinted glasses.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong and how. Just save the "retard" tag, OK?

Re:omfg, are you retarded?

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm... I fully agree with you. This is the kind of impressions the ppl here form due to their total lack knowledge of foreign states. They seem to be oblivious to the fact that a few clever corporations and polititions are benefitting quite a bit due to their foreign policies. Who are the suckers here??

Considering that US is actually influencing a lot of global issues, I seriously think a lot more awareness is needed here in US about foreign countries. The foreign policy here seems a little off. More and more countries seem to be falling into the evil axis. May be its time to try a different approach? -- educate people here first!! (and handling global warming wouldnt hurt either)

Re:omfg, are you retarded?

[Kjella]

Creationism? Abortion? Seperation of church and state but "One nation under God", and with the motto "In God we trust"?

You know, it's funny.... we here in Norway are a christian state, with something like 85% membership in the state church and even though actual religiousness is low, we certainly don't subscribe much to other religions. We had an ordained priest as prime minister from 1997-2000 and 2001-2005. Yet nobody has considered teaching creationism as anything but religious mythology for many, many decades. We've had free abortions up to the 12th week since 1978, and over 80% support the current legislation and there's really no political debate on the issue because the younger generation are almost unilaterally in favor of it. We've had gay partnerships for 15 years now, and not only is it accepted but the latest proposal for marriage law no longer distinguishes between same-sex and opposite-sex marriage including all rights to adoption etc., though that one is still controversial. While we've had some hangups about pornography and only recently allowed hard pornography that has been legal since the 1970s in our neighboring countries, we in general have a very relaxed relationship to non-sexualized nudity.

In my opinion, whether church and state is separate is not really central at all. What's important is whether or not the law is trying to enforce regligious standards on others. Without butting my head too far into the discussion of what's good christianity and not, which I don't care either way anyway, we've gone to great lengths to allow a free society where you may choose to live a non-christian life. Look to the key elements of chistianity such as compassion, tolerance and forgiveness and you'll see that salvation must come from within. So feel free to preach and hold your opinion that any partiular style of live is a sin against nature, or against God, or whomever. Just do not try to use the law to bludgeon everyone else into adhering to your moral codex. Do not try to use the law to protect yourself from your own moral weakness to the deteriment of everyone else. According to your own religious beliefs, if I choose to live a life in sin then only I can choose to repent. Punishment is not repentance, and do not try to make it so.

Re:why bother? See this article

[Anonymous Coward]

An interesting article here on the Man who wants to stop orkut - http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jun/08spec.htm

The issue has incensed him enough to lead a team of Shiv Sainiks to meet Google officials -- Orkut is a Google site -- and ask them to apprehend the culprits but this mission was not met with success.

Orkut blocked the 'I hate India' pages but they resurfaced in another form with a different identity, Panse says.

He then requested various Internet Service Providers to block Orkut, but again did not meet with success.

When that too did not work he sent letters to cyber cafes asking them to ban Orkut in Mumbai and all over India. It was part of this campaign that his men trashed cybercafes in Kalyan this week.

MOD PARENT UP

[shyampandit]

Very well said!

Re:pfft...

[Anonymous Coward]

You have your Falwells and your Sharptons, we have our Thackerays.

These kind of things are routine, you say? Well, how often do they occure, and how many people are affected? Keep in mind we're a country of one billion.

If you want to generalize the antics of a fraction of a handful of us to the entire lot, then the problem might just be with *you* and not us.

India will always be a hell on earth

[Anonymous Coward]

India (as opposed to China, Vietnam etc.) remains all talk and no action.

Indians lie and boast a lot but have little to be actually proud of, and much to be ashamed of. Their infrastructure is horrible, run by the most incompetent engineers in the entire world. Their political and judicial systems are a total farce. Their social system is EVIL: untouchability, wife burning, slavery. They leave their masses of poor to beg, starve or die.

Stupid and whats worse EVIL people.

Glad to see that everyone vedy-vedy agrees

[djupedal]

For those still not vedy-vedy sure about what a vedy-vedy huge literal dump india vedy vedy is...

Which (vedy continuously!) developing country on the planet turns out less than 20% year-on-year MBA recipients capable of being considered 'employable'...? INDIA! Hugh! Vedy huge :)

How's that for shagging dah pooch, eh?

Re:Glad to see that everyone vedy-vedy agrees

[DeepHurtn!]

Ah, the sophisticated wit of mocking an accent.

You're just a fuckin' bigot.

About religion?? -- I dont think so.

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole issue is related to a few groups in orkut that have negative stuff about the ShivSena chief Bal Thakerey. The local people have written against each other in orkut forums, bal thakerey included. And thats the main reason these ShivSena activists are out to get the local internet cafes.

Orkut has groups that hail all kinds of people, things, countries, religions, etc... At the same time it has other groups deploring the same. You can practically find hate groups of every kind in there. So the so called "religion abuse" is just a reason ShivSena activists are using to rake up the issue and try to gather higher support for their case.

ShivSena is a useless outfit that has done more damage than good and frankly, this much debate on its "localized" activities is not needed.

Violence, Retardation, Religion.

[crhylove]

Of COURSE these ignorant butt-plugs want to censor stuff. The only way anybody can keep talking to imaginary men in the sky and believing in that kind of nonsensical clap trap is to keep the blinders fully on. A quick reading of every wikipedia article for every religion shows how ludicrous every religion really is.

Go ahead, god squad, mod me down, but the days when society lacks the information to see through your horse shit philosophy systems is at hand. In a few generations, only real Luddites or actual retards will worship invisible men in the sky.

Information wants to be free. And humans want information. The days of praying to "holy ghosts" and multi-armed gods of war and love are ending. I just wish they would end sooner, like before we have another catastrophic global war, or completely destroy the environment.

*sigh* Seems unlikely though.

rhY

Re:Violence, Retardation, Religion.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! What's wrong with buttplugs that you use it as a pejorative??

Re:Violence, Retardation, Religion.

[crhylove]

Well, you could consider Religious Butt-plugs to be a euphemism for Catholic Priests, who tend to plug under-age butts, as it were, and that is generally frowned upon, hence the pejorative. Thank god for FireFox 2. I had no idea how to spell about half those words.

Publicity Stunt ... nothing else

[Anonymous Coward]

they too know you cant really stop people by attacking cyber cafes... I am from india, and have lived for 21 years in Mumbai (where Shiv sena used to be very active). Shiv sena generally does these kinds of publicity stunts to get attraction of mass. these attacks look more like a local attention grabbing thing than any sort of internet censorship...

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[PaneerParantha]

whackeroony, mazaa aa gayaa.

shameless indian

[Anonymous Coward]

remind me again what proportion of the US lives below the poverty line and/or has no health coverage?

Fool.

The fool is you hindu boy. The poor in America live much better than most all indians. They do not starve. They are not left to die like animals. Thats why you are so desperate to come here.

You are a very disgusting, totally shameless people. No one likes you. For good reason.

Re:shameless indian

[WIAKywbfatw]

Uh, I'm neither Indian or a Hindu. I'm an English aethiest.

You're not just an AC, you're a stupid, ignorant, racist AC.

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[kklein]

Wonderful post! (I don't have any mod points left.)

Right, the US has freedom of speech

[Anonymous Coward]

Check the McCarthy witchhunts. You can proclaim any political leaning in the US of A you want. As long as it is capatalist.

Excersise your freedom of speech by showing a boobie on tv. Just be prepared to pay the huge fine.

Make a game with a bit of sex in it. Better censor it in the US or no store will stock it.

The US of A has free speech in the same way that the T-Ford had a choice of colors. You could have it in any color, as long as you wanted black. In the US of A you can say anything you want, as long as it is what is currently approved.

People in the US talk about 9/11 and arab terrorist and neatly forget the countless homegrown terrorists and their attacks on for instance abortion clinics.

The whole freedom of speech thing is an amazing piece of propaganda. People just shout very hard they have it, so they do not actually have to think about how they never actually seem to be able to use it.

When Fox airs a party political broadcast for free for the communist party THEN you will have the start of freedom of speech. Until then, sorry no.

FUD by democratic nations

[jihadist]

Americans and other "progressive" nations hate anyone who wants to retain tradition instead of becoming a big Wal-mart of crappy ideasl ike America and the UK are.

Not everyone wants your disease, dying West. But you want to spread it so you don't feel so alone as you slump and shuffle into the third world.

America has 50 years left before it becomes the kind of place where you have to pay the cops to not rape your daughters. All of you "pro-freedom" people are helping it get there.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[superpulpsicle]

Hold up for a minute. Not everyone in the west likes the idea of walmart and the likes.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[rossz]

America has 50 years left before it becomes the kind of place where you have to pay the cops to not rape your daughters. All of you "pro-freedom" people are helping it get there.

As opposed to the current situation in Islamic nations where women are raped by roaming thugs and executed for murder when they defend themselves.

The middle east used to be the center of learning. Science, technology, and religious tolerance made the middle east great. Then the religion of hate took over and that all stopped. There is no longer advanced learning in the middle east. There is no longer great thinking and tolerance. Now you export suicide bombers and oil. If it weren't for the oil we'd have nuked your ass years ago. Be afraid. Your oil will run out eventually. Then we won't have any reason to put up with your hatred.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[Anonymous Coward]

the current situation in Islamic nations where women are raped by roaming thugs and executed for murder when they defend themselves.

Or when they don't defend themselves, and are executed for being raped.

Of course, who needs roaming thugs, when the justice system calls for raping wives and daughters for the crimes of brothers and fathers.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[L. J. Beauregard]

I visited jihadist's website and it looks more like the sort of thing that a Falwellista would put up. Of course Falwellistas and the Islam über Alles crowd believe in some of the same things -- hate them feelthy queers, a woman's place is barefoot and pregnant.

In short, "jihadist" probably isn't a Muslim, just an average wrong-wing jerkwad. May God protect us from his followers.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[ChaoticLimbs]

Alright then, "jihadist", is the western world stupid for not having honor killings of our young women who are victimized by men?

Are we foolish for not treating our women like cattle?

Are we ignorant because we allow people to say that which offends another without needing to chop somebody's head, arms, or feet off?

If you're an Islamist, I can honestly say your ideologies are 1300 years too old to be taken seriously, and contain so much malice, hatred, intolerance and foolishness that any movement by the west toward your way of life would be a gigantic leap backwards.

The ONLY reason Islam gets the tolerance it gets from the western press and politicians is because there are cowards who are afraid of your violent, sociopathic tendencies.

So go ahead, use the computers the West created, the network the West built, to condemn us. It makes you look exactly like what you are: a person who has embraced the ideologies of 6th century unschooled goat-herders.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[ChaoticLimbs]

Fucking leftist coward, confronted by islamist hatred towards an entire hemisphere, uses it as an opportunity to show that he too despises Wal-Mart.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[jihadist]

First, I'm in New York and am an American.

Second, I've long become disillusioned with "progress," which is what makes you think any ideal is 1300 years too late. This society we're in is not proven to be better.

Honor killings might be necessary. The individual is oppressive. It even oppresses us in the form of an overburdened ego.

I know all of this is new to you. There is a heavy bias toward the progressive, Western opinion in the West, but that is changing.

Apologies to all who thought I was Muslim. Jihadist is just a cool word.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[ErikZ]

ha!

You're not familiar with the 2nd amendment I take it.

Ah much as respect the police for doing what they can with their jobs, as soon as they start doing things you described, is when they'll start dying en masse.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[ErikZ]

Have you lived in any of the primitive societies?

It's easier to point out exactly what's wrong when you have that experience.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[ChaoticLimbs]

"Progress" is what we call that state where infant mortality goes from 60% to 1%.

"Progress" is what we call that state where cancers and genetic diseases no longer have to lead inexorably to death.

"Progress" is what we call that state where individuals are no longer threatened daily by tribal infighting, but rather have access to a structure, a legal system, for redress of grievances against one another, or even the powers that exist in our nation.

"Progress" is what we call that state where a family can support itself without a single drought bringing them to starvation.

The western world has progress. I'm sorry if your degree hasn't brought you success, but remember that the decision to pursue direction in your life has been yours and yours alone. Schooling was provided at no cost. Thousands of people rise from even the most squalid conditions in the West to success. Thousands do not, but most who fail do so because they were given a culture by their parents which leads to failure. It is a sad fact that if your parents do not teach you how the world works, and how to succeed within it, you will most likely not even approach success.

It is the easy path to become jaded, to say that success was never a possibility for you. The hard path is to look back at those poor decisions to not do homework, to not pursue a lucrative career and give up partying and laziness, and realize that if you've failed, you did so at some point in the past, and that it is not too late to try to better the resulting situation.

There is a lot of progress still to make. Still, inequalities exist between races, and between the sexes. Just because success is possible for most does not imply it is just as easy for all. These are the areas where progress has still to take us further.

The Third World is different. In the Third World, if you're born poor, you WILL die poor. Progress will eventually change this even there. Science is curing the diseases which kill their young children, and helping the aging to deal with the symptoms of life. These advances are being applied even in the Third World, slowly, as costs permit. It is not all screwed. Instead of declaring war on the West, the most important thing for Westerners to do is assist "progress" to be applied to ever more people's lives across the world. Seeking to revert to a pastoral existence is not an option, for this world has seven billion people on it and most do not live on arable land sufficient to feed them with ancient farming practices.
Forgive yourself your youth and realize that your efforts are best spent not railing against the inequality with a fist in the air, but with your hands on the tools which better the lives of those less fortunate than yourself.

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[KudyardRipling]

For certain this guy's a cruise missle magnet...

Re:FUD by democratic nations

[Rakarra]

Maybe we can be optimistic and hope his hatred is Landover-Baptist style.

Moderation abuse

[Dogtanian]

(Disclaimer: This is about abuse of the moderation system, it is not an endorsement of XChristX's views).

Regarding the "funny" moderation of the parent. There is nothing obviously funny to me about it; can we assume that:

• The mod thinks that talk of "OMG!! COMMIES!!!!" is funny, despite the fact that for a long time India was run along very left-wing (if not quite communist) principles? It's not America, and I'm sure communism *is* still a valid factor in politics there.
• It's an intended piss-take because they disagree with what XchristX is saying? (i.e. deliberately abusive modding)
• They're exploiting the "Funny doesn't give karma" loophole so that if and when XchristX is modded down to -1, it'll damage his karma more than it would otherwise? (Again, deliberately abusive modding)

I suspect it's the second and/or third.

Re:Moderation abuse

[saforrest]

I suspect it's the second and/or third.

I suspect strongly that it's the first. Most Slashdot readers have very little clue what is going on in India, and probably didn't read past the first few sentences before modding.

The act of stridently assigning blame for political ills to Communists and Islamists (as those first few sentences do) will strike a chord with most Americans, and echoes a lot of the rhetoric (historical and modern) from their own leaders. The idea that this sort of rhetoric would be happening in very different and faraway place turns the familiarity of such statements into humour.

Hence the "funny" mod. I really think that's a much more plausible explanation than deliberately abusive modding.

Re:Moderation abuse

[demeteloaf]

Or they could have just accidentally selected the wrong moderation. If you're using the "new discussion system," there's no way to undo a moderation after you select it from the drop down menu. I know I've done that once or twice in the past, although usually I'll just reply to the post to undo it.

Software to block hate messages on orkut

[Anonymous Coward]

Tech2.com has an article on the same group trying to make a software to block hate messages on Orkut.. Take a look here

http://www.tech2.com/india/news/software/shiv-sena -making-software-to-monitor-orkut/6022/0

Dumb SS

[rvtheace]

They are not nationalists, they are opportunists, just like all other Indian politicians. Curses upon them!

PLEASE IGNORE THIS POST

[sdin]

These people constitute a minority and in no way reflect the general attitude of India. This is just a repercussion of the dirty politics, where these people keep creating uproar in some or the other way to remain in limelight, and media caters to their intention to get noticed.I am sure none of these people have ever used ORKUT to stay connected to people. sd

Re:pfft...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well. yes I can.

Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Intel, Amd, Motorola, IBM, ATI, NVIdia, Phillips, Sony, Samsung and every other business firm seem to find India attractive and have invested hugely .

If India hasnt yet become the next 'big' thing ,it certainly aint due to US/EU business being uninterested......

Politics is bad, politics is good!

[Anonymous Coward]

To sum up the slashdot comments,
# RSS/Shiv Sena has done good things
# RSS/Shiv Sena has done nothing good, ever.
# Shiv Sena is a local party with no influence outside Mumbai
# Shiv Sena did great job in Mumbai which was marginalized by India media.
[...]

In short, no one is un-biased. What is wrong with people? Why do everything needs to "balanced" by being equally wrong? Why facts need adjective?

Shiv Sena has NOTHING to do with RSS. Shiv Sena is a right-wingist political party. RSS is a nationalistic organisation. BJP is a political party started and consisting of RSS members. Shiv Sena is a local party in the state of Maharashtra with no following outside, and a major base in Mumbai. RSS is a big-BIG-organization. Comparing them to one guy (Jerry Falwell) is so far from insightful, it is not even informative.

And media being unfair? Does straw man argument needs another example here? One question: is it good or bad to bully people to agree to your demand?

Fact: The Economic Times is an English newspaper. In India I do not know of any English newspaper which leans even a bit to right wing.

Fact: Freedom for all Asians shun individualism, especially if it harms group interests. )

Fact: India is big, has a bigger population, and void of basic facilities. Lesson: people with unrest do stupid things. Naxalites and these nationalistic parties are all run by these people. Remember, they are more about "people" than "ideologies".

I can go on ranting like this, I don't know why I even bothered, but looking at Indians being ashamed of themselves is one reason I don't like India. Once again I say, thing don't need to be balanced. (If you try to, the whole system will break).

Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.

Now we need to censor Slashdot as well

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that Slashdot is discussing this topic that is sooo close to our hearts we have decided to prevent posting of comments on Slashdot. In case Cmdrtaco does not take special measures to ensure that each slashdot message satisfies our filter criteria in the months to come, accessing Slashdot will be banned from every indian cybercafe. Note to all cyber cafe owners ;-) We are watching you!!! We are also closely watching other sites like Digg, Youtube and so on. Even google has the habit of pulling out stuff we do not like Indians to see. A countrywide ban of Google is getting ready. Just wait and watch...
==ANONYMOUS COWARD

i'm famous? really?

[circletimessquare]

among what crowd? retarded lurkers?

(snicker)

Income distristribution in India and in the US.

[gnalle]

India has a much narrower income distribution than the US. (Note that you need to plot the logarithm of the income in order to calculate percentage changes in income between the rich and the poor) http://www.gapminder.org/downloads/applications/in come-distribution-2003.html

India: 5000 Slain Brides & 3 Million Prostitut

[reporter]

Read the shocking report at the web site of the "National Geographic". The report states, "In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say."

The year of the report is 2002. The report proceeds to note the similarity between Indian culture and Islamic culture.

Note that "5000" is the number for only murdered brides. That number does not include the many Indian women murdered by Indian man for supposedly shaming the Indian family.

Also, according to a disturbing CNN report, Indian has 3 million prostitutes, of whom many are the victims of trafficking. Of these victims, at least 40% are children; 40% translates to 1.2 million Indian children working as prostitutes, who are raped numerous times, per day, by Indian customers.

The parent article tries to paint India as a Western nation. The facts indicate otherwise.

Vietnam is more Western than India. Honor killings are extremely rare in Vietnam. It has a much lower rate of children prostitution than India because Vietnamese law enforcement actually punishes the customers of child prostitutes. Note that Vietnam is still a relatively poor nation, so poverty cannot explain the popularity of honor killings and children prostitution in India. The explanation is in the non-Western culture of India.

What , no outsourcing or H1B jokes?

[Tablizer]

slashdot is slipping. Next you know, no overlord jokes either.

Re:What , no outsourcing or H1B jokes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our H1B visa carrying overlords...

There, done to death

Worthy of Hate

[Dog-Cow]

By destroying others' property they prove they are worthy of hate. I hope the Cafe owners start using deadly force to protect their property.

Re:Worthy of Hate

[OrangeTide]

I am wondering if publicly announcing that you plan to commit crimes if you don't get your way is somehow illegal in itself. At the very least I think internet cafes should hire security guards and sue the ring leader to pay for them.

Violence never solves anything.

[Chas]

Except nazism, fascism, communism, slavery....

Thank You Protest Warrior!

Those Cartoons vs. Hindu "Tolerance"

[billstewart]

The Danish cartoons were done to provoke a discussion about Islam's lack of tolerance for freedom of speech - and in some sense they succeeded :-) Unfortunately, the louder part of the Islamic world only saw the cartoons, not the reason they were drawn, and didn't get the joke. (The fact that the joke was insulting was a separate problem - and the cartoons did range from friendly to hostile.)

Apparently the Shiv Sena are no different from the shriller Moslem ranters or the Jerry Falwells in America - If you look at Hamas, you'll see that they provide a lot of social services in poor parts of Lebanon and to some extent Israel, and the religious right wing in America do a lot of individual anti-poverty work (things like Habitat for Humanity, relief work around the world, drilling wells for villages in Africa and Bangladesh, etc.) Yet they all bring disrespect to their religions by advocating tribalism, violence and intolerance.

Oh, no we wouldn't!

[billstewart]

Come on now, have you *seen* vi's internals? Even vi users occasionally go piss on it, burn it, and bitch about the holes that have been punched in there from the beginning :-)

Doesn't mean we'd go use emacs, of course....

---

In fact I do use both, and unfortunately none of the vi-modes in emacs were that satisfactory when I last saw them. To the extent that I use Unix shell interfaces these days, I generally edit in vi and use emacs-mode in bash. I assume that window-based versions of emacs probably work better now than a decade ago, but I normally work on Windoze, either in Word, Powerpoint, or Notepad, and do most of my editor work with mice.

Who knew anybody outside Brazil still used it?

[billstewart]

As somebody said in a different thread, Orkut is _so_ 2004. It was another six-degrees-of-separation social networking site in the mode of Friendster, started by a Google employee, with fairly nice organization for groups, messaging, etc. It wasn't oriented toward file-sharing, mostly just discussion, but after 6-12 months of finding all your friends' Orkut pages and seeing who _their_ friends were, it pretty much burned through its 15 minutes of fame.

Eventually, like Spinal Tap becoming popular in Japan after they'd faded out in Britain, Orkut started to catch on really heavily in Brazil.

Also, once people were done looking through their friends' sites, some fraction of the users started just Friending anybody at random, whether they knew them or not, and even if your picture didn't look like a hot chick or a cute gay man, you'd get a lot of Friend requests from strangers. Even if you didn't speak Portugese and they did.

After a while, Google started pushing their Orkut logins and Gmail logins together, which would make all your Orkut information linkable to your Gmail information. _Not_ what I wanted.

Any way to get information about RSS?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am very interested in this "RSS". Is there any way for me to, say, automatically download news items from their website? Say, kind of "feed" it to my browser as they're posted? I'd like this "syndication" to be real simple - as simple as possible, of course.

Anyone know how I could get that kind of real simple syndication about RSS?

Shiv Sena? Religion? Connection?

[101010_or_0x2A]

These so called "moral police" lunatics simply need some sort of an excuse to get votes from the poorer folks in our society, and wont stop at anything to get them. Its ridiculous that in this day and age the "freedom of speech and expression" slogan essentially means "freedom of speech and expression as long as it doesn't do anything to harm our chances in the elections, in which case we will do what any rational human would do, get bats and bricks and go as a group of thugs to trash something that doesn't belong to us and isn't really at fault, and will make our inflated sense of importance even more so"

Remind me again, weren't Shiv Sena

[101010_or_0x2A]

the same crazy motherf***ers who rampaged against Muslims in Mumbai, 1993 at the behest of their peace loving leader BalT, and isn't that a "hate campaign" in its very definition as opposed to some keyboard happy dude/dudess writing a few comments on Orkut?

red-green show

[sanman2]

Umm... when was the last time V. S. Naipaul lived in India, and I mean lived, not visited. He should not comment on things he has no clue about. The problem with many of the Indians living outside India is that they have been fed a lie that Hinduism is under attack in India and is dying. Nothing could be further from the truth, just going by the sheer number of people who are present whenever any so-called "Godman" comes to town.

What crap. Bombay has been bombed -- not once, but twice. The Taliban are nextdoor, along with a military dictatorship aggressively supporting them. Muslims aren't the ones under seige, they're the ones laying siege. When in history have Hindus ever invaded Islamic lands? Sorry, it's Muslims who invaded and subjugated India.

I'm a strict atheist, but there's no way I'll buy garbage like yours -- either Leftist, Islamic, or some combination of the two. Clearly the regressive forces in the region are socialist and Islamic. In case you haven't noticed, those two groups have a problem getting along with any and every other ethnic community on the planet. Name one exception.

Hinduism isn't even a real religion -- it's just a "miscellaneous" category into which every non-monotheistic belief in the region has been slotted into. Therefore it's inherently pluralistic, in contrast to the ugly dogma of the Left and the Islamists.

Socialism and Islamism have already left a trail of misery and strife across the planet. Spare me your fake moralism. It doesn't wash.

Re:red-green show

[yurigoul]

From a European point of view: Would you please differentiate between socialism and communism?

Socialism has been very good to us - and we all know what harm was done in the name of communism in some countries. Although I must say that since the fall of the wall things are changing here for the worse.

Re:red-green show

[SenseiLeNoir]

I am a "Hindu" and you are generally right; the only thing that you said which is not 100% true is saying it captures every "non-monothiestic" belief, because at core Hinduism believes in a single supreme being that takes different forms. It is also the core difference between Hindu philosophy differentials and Bhuddist philosophy, which does not believe in a supreme being, but the nature of us as a whole spirit (which is a philosophy I like too).

As you rightly said, Hinduism (and bhuddism/jainism etc) is not a religion, and should not be seen as such. Its only a philosophy and guide. IT doesn't have dogma as a core facet, and is very pluralistic, and is supposed to view everyone as maybe having different beliefs, but humanist in nature. (Interestingly you an be an atheist and still follow Hindu philosophy, by refusing to believe in god, that is what Bhuddists aim for)

However, I would not categorise Islam (yes I am aware of what happened in the past, but past is past, lets not live in that) or socialism as the core problem for misery and strife across the planet. The core problem is "smart" people using religion to mobilise the less educated and enlightened to cause misery to others, and this happens across ALL religions, and the political spectrum.

Actually, let me clarify that...

[WIAKywbfatw]

Actually, let me clarify that.

I'm not a true aethiest. I'm an agnostic who tends towards aethiesm. And one who regularly attended church, went to Sunday School and played one of the three wise men more than once in the nativity play.

Thanks for playing, though.

Re:India: 5000 Slain Brides & 3 Million Prosti

[slashdotlurker]

The year of the report is 2002. The report proceeds to note the similarity between Indian culture and Islamic culture. Note that "5000" is the number for only murdered brides. That number does not include the many Indian women murdered by Indian man for supposedly shaming the Indian family.

Forgive me for pointing out an obvious flaw in that "argument". Are we not assuming that honor killings are widespread in India ? I have lived for years in India as a bureau reporter, and while one hears of 3 or 4 bride burning cases every few months, I have never heard of honor killings. That is something that is extremely common in Pakistan. I am sorry, but your attempts to equate Indian and Islamic cultures simply do not wash. That figure of 5000 is on a population that is now 1 billion plus. I daresay that more women are killed by their husbands in crimes of passion, in my home state of California in an average year. 3 million prostitutes in a population of 1 billion ? Eastern Europe and Russia have a far greater proportion than that.

The parent article tries to paint India as a Western nation. The facts indicate otherwise. Vietnam is more Western than India. Honor killings are extremely rare in Vietnam. It has a much lower rate of children prostitution than India because Vietnamese law enforcement actually punishes the customers of child prostitutes. Note that Vietnam is still a relatively poor nation, so poverty cannot explain the popularity of honor killings and children prostitution in India. The explanation is in the non-Western culture of India.

India is clearly not a Western nation. These are people from a proud ancient civilization that developed almost completely untouched by the various schools of thought that moulded our European and American histories until beginning of colonialism in this part of Asia. Why would you feel the need to knock down a strawman ? I have lurked on slashdot for many months, and have learned that India is a fairly disliked country among the tech types who post here. I can understand why that is so. While Silicon Valley is stagnating, Indian tech cities are experiencing a boom unprecedented in their history. There is a massive loss of jobs back home and that is an emotive issue. How this translates into an obsession that includes painting India as a retrograde and primitive Islamist culture with honor killings, is something I will not comment on, as I do not understand your motivation behind raising such canards. In my experience, India is one of the most virulently anti-Islamic countries I have ever lived in (and my prior jaunts include Serbia in early 90s, Russia in mid 90s and Israel for a few months in 2002). I do not sympathize with such notions, but given what I have learned of Indian history, its not surprising at all.

India is an embarassment to Democracy

[Anonymous Coward]

The moronic monkeys boast of their democracy like its a roaring success or something!!

Hey whackyloony, singapore is a first world country. No one starves or begs. India is a turd world shithole. Big difference jackass.

i don't really follow

[circletimessquare]

someone attacking a picture of your child is deeply personal and specific to you. someone attacking your religion is very nebulous and very peripherally related to you. so that's an invalid allegory

you can have a deep emotional love and faith in your religion AND realize there are knuckleheads out there who stir up trouble. to have this realization and this faith is called maturity. but if you do NOT realize there are knuckleheads out there who attack emotional symbols (broadly relevant symbols, like the cross, not specific personal symbols, like your child's picture) just to get a rise out of people, then you're simply not mature, and you're not a good member of your religion. you're an easily roused child of your religion. no religion champions the concept of having a stick on your shoulder, of being easily upset. that just makes you shallow

and so if the efforts of knuckleheads get a reaction out of you you've sunk to their level, and thereby cheapened your religion. you have to rise above the efforts of trolls, or you are just trolled, online, and in real life. you don't prove anything by reacting emotionally to trolls except that a troll can get to you. the whole point of defeating a troll, online or off, is never letting him get to you. that's all a troll wants. and so getting upset at emotional attacks on your religious symbols only lets the attacker win: they hurt your feelings. that's what they want to do

don't let those who attack your religion win, and prove to the world that your religious faith has no maturity or dignity

Godse was an atheist

[sanman2]

Nathuram Godse was an atheist. So am I, btw.

The Mahatma had a machiavellian side to him, and was responsible for ousting some very popular leaders from the Indian Congress Party. He wasn't the pure saint you'd like to project.

Embrace and Extend

[Valacosa]

Embrace, Extend, Exterminate. Christianity is the Microsoft of religions!

Re:India: 5000 Slain Brides & 3 Million Prosti

[JavaIsGreat]

What Racial Inferiority? Is it because you lost your job?

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome post - absolutely spot on!

Re:When I observe how religious believers behave..

[KudyardRipling]

Does that mean that you have 'lost your originality'?

Re:So what group specifically are they pissed abou

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, many groups with names like "we hate india" have come up on orkut, which basically abuse anything indian. The main pissing point for most indians is that the community photo normally has the indian flag burning/ upside down or something similar which is legally a crime in India. http://mha.nic.in/acts-rules/Prevention_Insults_Na tional_Honour_Act1971.pdf

More complex than that

[Valdrax]

Actually, it's more complex than that. Orkut is a social networking site which was initially invite-only (up until late in 2006). At some point early in its growth, some extremists got on Orkut and started inviting all their extremist buddies on board to use Orkut's easy to create discussion boards. As a result, Orkut got a lot of bad press early on for harboring hate groups.

Basically, it was a nice lesson in why offering exclusive sign-ups to people who are invited by existing members can poison a social network if the wrong kind of people end up as early adopters. More innocently, it also resulted in the service being used more by Brazilians than any other nationality (even Americans) because users there apparently were far more prolific about sending out invites.

Slashdot next ?

[epistic]

It would be interesting to say the least if they try coming after slashdot next. Would somebody please send them this link and set up a phone number or website to support their queries in case they do not understand fully well some of the comments owing to their conveniently channelized vision.

Re:India is not a Western nation.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0412.html#11

Ignore point #1 in that link (it's not relevant to a discussion of "democracy") but points #2 and #3 are.