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Is Cash No Longer Legal Tender?
An anonymous reader asks: "I attend the University of Illinois at Chicago. Last semester my housing arrangements went smoothly. I put down my application fee, and my deposit just fine, got a room for the semester and life went on. This semester, because there was supposedly a large number of students who did not check into their rooms last semester, we were required to make a $100 prepayment, in addition to the application fee and deposit. No problem, I think, I see the university is trying to make a quick buck off people who don't follow through with their plans. Now I do NOT have a checking account, a credit card, or anything. I don't trust the banks, or the credit card companies, so I am one of the few people who do EVERYTHING in cash. However, they refused to take the cash. Is it legal for a state-owned university, let alone any business to not take legal tender?"
The housing department also will not charge my university account (so I can pay the bursar or whoever I need to) in cash, and they want a check or money order. Nowhere in their letter did they say that. I fear out of technicality I am going to loose my housing since I cannot get them their money on time because they do not take cash.
What can I do?"
What can I do?"
My understanding of the issue, although I do not specialize in this kind of law, is that your cash must be accepted for everything for which the good or service has already been provided; they are not required to accept it when you are making a payment for something you are to receive in the future.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
I have never been able to get an answer. Why won't people just accept cash? Isn't all money the same?
Goto your postoffice, and get a cashiers check. Seriously. Not rocket science here.
snowulf.com
- get a grown-up job that doesn't pay in cash
- get a loan
- get a mortgage
You will need bank accounts down the line (and a credit score!) so why not get one now? Even if you leave it empty and top if up for special occasions like this.Just go get a money order from the post office or even a convenience store.
Doing everything in cash, imo, is sort of retarded. I don't particularly trust banks either, but when inconvenience impacts me regularly, I make concessions.
Most malls these days let you buy prepaid debit cards in any amount you want. Look online and I'm sure you can find it. Did ask if they would accept a cashiers check? The post office offers those.
I forget the interview--Discovery Channel years ago, some interviewer was concerned that businesses where not taking cash anymore. The found some government offical who said that even though it says "All Debts, Public and Private," nothing is forcing them to do business by it. Businesses could use Euro's if they wanted.
If you lose the room, it's your choice. I have a small business that makes good money helping people that are sued by credit card companies, so I know how nasty they can be, but on the other hand, if you watch what you're doing, you can keep your funds reasonably safe, at least, safer than what would happen if your cash were stolen. I've worked for businesses that refused to accept cash. One was when I was managing rental property. If they accepted cash, they would have had thousands of dollars in the office for the first few days each month and I would have had to take that cash to the bank, one block away, each day. I asked the same question you did and have had them (and a few other companies) explain that as long as they state the policy and apply it evenly to all, it's legal.
These days credit is more and more important. If you don't have it, many places won't give you a chance to get it because you have no credit record. While I'd like to say I admire you for sticking to your beliefs, you're going to have to make a choice: you can stick by your position and lose your room or you can work out a compromise. If you elect to stay firmly in your position, I seriously doubt the University will be upset. It's a bit what Prosser said to Arthur Dent: "Do you have any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if it were to run over you? None at all." They have nothing to lose here and you have everything to lose.
Overall, not building up credit, learning to deal with banks and credit card companies, and staying on an all cash basis is unwise in this culture. If I stuck to that policy, my net worth would be much lower because I would not have had a credit rating that allowed me to borrow when I needed it so I could build up my business.
While it's just my opinion, I can only wonder if a large part of your reluctance is more fear and unwillingness to understand how to use "the system" to your benefit and that you cover for this fear by claiming it is an ethical issue.
The more you know.
Dude, get over yourself, open a bank account. Where do you keep your money? Do you even have any significant amount of money? How do you beat inflation? How do you pay taxes?
What is it exactly you don't trust about banks? I mean, money is a number, and if it goes up in one place it has to go down someplace else, just check your bank statement each month, what exactly is going to happen?
As for your dilemma, have your mommy write the check, or buy a fucking money order. They don't have to accept cash.
Jesus, you're stubborn:
I don't trust the banks, or the credit card companies, so I am one of the few people who do EVERYTHING in cash. [..] I fear out of technicality I am going to loose my housing since I cannot get them their money on time because they do not take cash.
Do you know few of the things you CAN do with cash?
Get a cashiers check.
Open a checking account.
Just go and do it, don't just put your entire savings in there if you're so paranoid, put the amount that the university will charge you.
Do you honestly are telling us that you'd rather *lose* your housing than open a checking account and put $100 in it?
Legal Tender means it can be accepted as a payment of debt.
While it's not in the US, Ottawa will no longer accept cash when used to pay for taxes.
Also, in the U.S. there is no law requiring anyone accept cash as payment. I know Heinlein thought otherwise in some statements in "Time Enough for Love," but it's not true. For a little more, read this. As someone else pointed out, the legal tender issue will only work for paying debts incurred, not ones about to be incurred.
I'm reasonably sure that in this day and age most reasonably sized towns would have a post office that you would be able to get a money order from. Further to that, I'm reasonably sure that it is quite a rare for a university campus not to have a post office.
Get a money order and be done with it.
Its too easily stolen and comes with higher staffing, maintenance and security costs. When I lived in Amsterdam a few years ago it had gotten to the point where several bank branches in the city did not even carry cash and for those that did only carried small amounts so you had to inform them in advance if you wanted to withdraw anything in excess of something like 5K.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
So let me get this straight, you don't trust the banks so much that you make your life clearly more difficult, but you're willing to trust advice from a bunch of geeks on Slashdot? Maybe we're all out to get you too!
JFC dude.
Ever hear of a Money Order?
I saw a story on CNN about a guy who paid his yearly taxes with a huge truck and pennies.
In the US, the IRS is required to accept cash.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
I don't trust the banks, or the credit card companies, so I am one of the few people who do EVERYTHING in cash.
I don't trust them either. So I check the balances online, keep the printed copies (and decline online-only records), and keep deposit receipts.
Really, you're going to have to get one eventually, and if you are clever enough to work the system you can get all sort of cashback rewards and the like.
It isn't that difficult, they make easy enough cash off the genuises who carry $10K balances they don't really need to screw you for your $100 deposit. And it also depends on the risk you want to take... if I lose my wallet I'm secure two phone calls later (I carry only my ATM card and one credit card). If you lose $20K on the way to buy a car what are your options?
Where do you live?
You'd be a lot easier to steal from than somebody that uses bank accounts.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Wrong. If you had read other posts before making your post, or had checked through Google, you would have found out that isn't true, but, then again, with such a sharp, clever, and unique insight, I'm sure you're a lawyer and know what you're talking about, right?
If you carry around a large amount of cash (say $100), and somebody mugs you for it, you're out $100. Same goes for the property management firm (in this case, the college): if they have $100 in their office and it gets stolen, along with somebody's lunch, they're out that $100. However, thanks to FDIC insurance, if somebody robs a bank of $100, the Federal Reserve is out $100, not the bank.
Sure cash has no transaction fees like credit/debit transaction fees, and doesn't require verification like checks (or fees if you outsource that like a lot of larger retailers do), but businesses don't like to deal with cash as it's a bigger liability than any of the other aforementioned methods (due to potential robbery, fraud, lack of paper trail, etc.).
I hate writing checks and I don't like to use my credit card for paying bills. I regularly pay via money order. They're not free, but the fee isn't usually all that much, typically a few dollars.
You can get money orders from many convenience stores, grocery stores, and post offices. Most banks will also let you purchase them. Some banks will give them to you for free if you are a client. I usually end up with Western Union money orders from 7-eleven.
The only institutions (if I understand correctly) that won't accept money orders is insurance companies. You'll probably be better off paying with a cashier's check instead (I can't recall the difference here).
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I mean all a dollar is is a promise of payment from the US teasury - essentially a big bank. Do all your dealing in precious metals.
Just to be clear, when you go to the post office, you are getting a Postal Money Order, not a cashier's check.
That being said, your advice is indeed the most prudent course of action for the original poster.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
I've heard that story a dozen times in my life. But in most countries, the creditor could refuse to accept them. Eg, in the US 1 cent coins are only "legal tender" for amounts not exceeding 25 cents.
In Hong Kong lots of shops are refusing 10 and 20 cent coins ($1US = $7.8 HK), because the banks charge a handling fee to deposit them. Stored payment cards are in common use, for almost all public transport, now being extended to convenience stores.
So which part of "pre-payment" implies there is a Debt?
Advanced users are users too!
don't have time to read the thread atm (!) but just go in and get a certified check.
My opinion? See above.
You get over it. That's what you do. If you're too chickenshit to even open up a chequing or credit account that you wouldn't even use save for the occasional transaction that must be done using a verifiable electronic method, you are not going to make it very far in this world. You won't ever be able to get a place you can call your own; you will have difficulties getting some kinds of jobs if you don't have a demonstrable credit history; you won't be able to get a variety of services. Sure, you can go to the local Western Union and constantly have to make money orders for everything, but then you'd constantly have to carry hundreds if not thousands of dollars around with you (how safe is that?) and you have to pay out of your own pocket every time. Plus, to most people, you won't look like you've got your shit together if you're constantly paying for everything with money orders. People that you want most to trust you, won't.
And how the heck do you plan on saving money? Put it in a shoebox under your bed? What if your place burns down in a fire, or what if someone breaks in and steals it? Insurance companies won't replace lost or stolen cash. If your credit card or bank card gets stolen and used for fraud, you almost certainly will get your money back -- that's the beauty of little electronic footprints and camera footage.
First, the answer has already been posted. Get a money order.
Two, you are an idiot if you pay cash to the university. You don't trust banks but you are willing to trust a university? Your trust issues are more then a little fucked up. If you pay cash to a university, you have one less piece of a paper trail should the university turn around and screw you... and screw you they often do. Universities are notorious for piss poor management, lost bills, and all other manner of headaches. Despite the general incompetence of most universities, the one thing you can always fall back on is that if they charge you electronically there is not only their receipt, but a transaction from your bank as well. When you go to dispute your bill, you will be armed with a very clear record of how they fucked up. Your trust priorities are a little confused if you think that a bank is more likely to screw you then a university.
I highly suggest making friends with money orders, refillable credit cards, or some other method of paying besides cash. Only using cash will keep you from doing some very simple things, like ordering stuff online, sending checks in the mail, etc.
I am not sure if you are paranoid, trying to dodge taxes, or just are not happy with the crop of crazy groups available at universities and decided to start your own but you are likely to find the all cash world not worth whatever you are getting. Sure, you might dodge a few taxes, but the amount you pay in pain and the inability to easily use basic services is likely to be far worse then Uncle Sam's FICA taxes. If you are just paranoid... well, I suggest seeing a doctor with the power to prescribe medication. Uncle Sam really doesn't give a shit that you had to pay a school deposit. Really.
It may not be legal for them to do that, but bureaucracy at UIC is a completely horrible mess of incompetent staff with no accountability. Good luck.
Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
I saw video of it on CNN. Actually, technically I believe it was on their Headline News network, but I did in fact directly see video of it.
However, as a side note, I once suggested as a small child (perhaps 7 or 8) that it only made sense for the world to go completely to electronic currency. I kept trying to convince adults that physical currency is not only inconvenient, but it is easier to steal, and harder to track.
If those concepts are readily apparent to a child, why hasn't anyone actually suggested it on a very serious level?
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
I don't get it. You don't trust banks, but you trust the Federal Reserve ? The people who can and do print money like it grows on trees and in cotton fields ?
In Soviet America the banks rob you!
>In the US, the IRS is required to accept cash.
Luckily the UK is a bit smarter and coin is only valid up to a surprisingly low amount.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
However, as a side note, I once suggested as a small child (perhaps 7 or 8) that it only made sense for the world to go completely to electronic currency. I kept trying to convince adults that physical currency is not only inconvenient, but it is easier to steal, and harder to track.
If those concepts are readily apparent to a child, why hasn't anyone actually suggested it on a very serious level? Because those concepts are readily apparent to anyone. Phyiscal currency is harder to track than electronic currency, and many people are concerned about the privacy implications of electronic currency.
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
And only put in it what you really need to.
Or better yet, go see a counselor.
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
"Luckily the UK is a bit smarter"
A bit? Don't be modest.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
HR 2779 (source)The Honorable Ron Paul tried to have the Legal Tender Laws repealed on July 25, 2003, when he spoke from The Well of The House of Representatives and stated:
Had his resolution passed then they would have legally been able to tell you what form of payment they would accept. This did not pass and they are required to take legal tender a/k/a cash as payment. This will be an easy case for you to win. Just like going into a drive through in the middle of the night and reading the sign no bills over $20 accepted and handing them a $50. This was the intention of these laws to prevent them from saying payment in gold or silver only. This is the main reason that I so strongly support Dr. Ron Paul for President.
Restore America: Dr. Ron Paul for President!
You will need credit. Not just to buy and sell. To get an apartment. To get a job. To forge other relationships with various institutions that want to evaluate your trustworthiness with something other than your own claims about yourself.
It's regrettable, maybe (certainly I think so), but it's also damn tough to live any other way in the end. A life without credit is a life with many fewer opportunities and many fewer potential relationships. Not just slightly fewer, but fewer to a crippling extent.
But credit is not something that exists here, now, it is something that exists through your own financial history of using it. That is to say it's circular: you get a little, you use that little, then you get a little more, then you use that little more, etc. You only get Credit (big 'C') by using your credit (small 'c') responsibly over time. The later you start, the later you'll actually get there.
If you're over 20 and you haven't started already, you're way behind the game. By the time you're 30 and haven't started, most institutions won't extend you any anymore. They'll just paint you as "different." They don't care whether you're different in a bad or good way for not having credit; they just don't want to do business with people who are "different." Because "different" people might respond to responsibilities in "different" ways from the ways in which members of society typically do.
My advice: go open a bank account and put some money in it. Leave a balance of a few hundred dollars there for a few months, then get a credit card with that bank. Use the damn card. Pay off your balance. Even if you just do $20 a month, i.e. toilet paper and granola bars, on the card. Just to get a credit history going on.
And later on, if you find yourself in this situation again, you'll have a bank account that you can quickly deposit some cash in and use a Visa/Mastercard debit card against.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
And if he really does get his money from the Tooth Fairy, then nothing makes people more suspect that a guy who pays everything by cash... They'll come looking for that fairy.
- These characters were randomly selected.
Interestingly, in Scotland apparently only Bank of England notes *under* £5 and coins in varying amounts are (strictly speaking) legal tender. Since there are no longer any Bank of England notes under £5, this means that only £1 and £2 UK coins are legal tender for unlimited amounts(!).
That is misleading however, as Scottish courts enforce "reasonable" settlement of debts, which in practice would allow any BoE note and privately-issued Scottish banknotes.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
It's true. Large amounts of cash are suspicious. There's an entire money laundering business to turn large amounts of suspicious cash into large amounts of unsuspicious cash. If you can't prove you got your large amount of cash legally, it's suspicious.
There are many holes in the way law enforcement tries to catch illegally acquired cash at the moment. If they try to close those holes, it's quite likely that using cash for large transactions will become illegal. Or even using cash at all; Dutch banks already want everybody to use a kind of credit chips.
I think only 1 and 2 pound coins are legal tender above a certain value, its either 5 or 10 pounds. Its something like 20 of each coin with an individual value below £1, but it may vary by coin.
Even bank notes are not legal tender, though i can't think of many places which take cash that wouldn't take notes. But the £50 is often refused outside of banks.
_Every_ single year you will _loose_ a percentage of your wealth which is equal to that of the inflation rate. This is not so bad if your a student with limited savings, but if your saving for a house or a car your going to be losing a lot of money each and every year. The only way to stop this is to have a bank account (or other investments) that pays equal or more than inflation+your tax rate.
A perhaps rather naive question from a non-american: Isn't it possible to get a simple debit-card to go along with a bank-account?
This is the default situation here in Denmark. Virtually everybody have the national debit-card ("DanKort") which give access to your money for pretty much all purposes (including online shopping). The important thing to notice is that since it's a DEBIT rather than a CREDIT card, you cannot use more money that what's available on you account (the bank _may_ allow the balance to be slightly negative). This is ALSO the situation with my VISA card - it's also a debit card in Denmark.
You're only venturing into fraud / theft of services / obtaining by deception territory if a court of law decides that you had no intention to pay. You turning up at the office with actual banknotes demonstrates an intention to pay. If they refuse a reasonable offer of payment, they may well (inadvertently) be agreeing to give you something for free.
It's a bit like the case of the student who got a wealthy lawyer to sponsor his university education in law, on the basis that he would hand over the entire proceeds of his first case by way of complete and final recompense. Immediately upon receiving his degree, he signed on the dole and made no attempt to get a job as even a minor partner in a law firm. His sponsor took him to court for breach of contract; the graduate represented himself. Either his sponsor's payoff would amount to nothing (because he had lost his first case); or the decision of the court would be that he didn't have to pay his sponsor anything (if he won the case).
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Presumaby you are attending University in order to learn; to expand your horizons. Consider this incident one of your learning experiences at school: You need to move beyond your distrust for the entire banking system. There--you've just received your first lesson of the semester without even attending a single class!
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
OMG where is the conspiracy theory shop? Word is it only accepts cash...
Like what kind of concerns?
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
It's already been said several times that you need to start establishing credit - but you are also going to need a bank account sometime in the future for many jobs. Okay, not all require it - but I do know the last two employers I have worked for require direct deposit. Also, I work for the federal gov't now, and you are required to have a credit card to go on official travel - at some point, you will need to learn to be a little more trusting of established financial institutions!
I've seen posts with this link that still got it wrong.
It is not a matter of past or present debts, or debts already incurred verses about to be incurred.
It means that if cash is accepted, then this bill must be accepted. A merchant can not insist on bills backed by precious metals (they were, decades ago), or bills that are not creased, or "the new style" bills, or "the old style" bills, or bills printed after such-and-such a date, or...
"No one wants to deal in cash any more"
Broadly speaking, that's very much not true. Here in Japan, everything can be done with cash, and usually is. None of my friends have credit cards or debit cards, to my knowledge.
I used to live in Canada, and we got swept up in debit-card mania much more quickly than most countries. I lived off a plastic card for several years, but eventually realized the headaches exceeded the advantages and went back to always carrying cash. (What headaches? Stuff like hidden or unexpected user fees at both the retail and bank end; debit machines that stop working; cards that stop working; being stranded at the till when your card fails to have enough balance; debit networks that go down during power outages and peak shopping times; check-out queues that slow to a crawl as people try all the cards in their wallet to make a purchase; etc.)
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
Grocery stores sell money orders very inexpensively. Much less than the post office.
Cash doesn't have a history (except you keep book of the serial numbers). Electronic money has. With cash there is no easy way to track social and monetary networks. With electronic money it's easy. What do you think why the U.S. government has cracked down on Somalia's Halawa "banking" system? Because no one was able to follow the money trail, and in the aftermath of 9/11 one of the biggest tasks was to find out who is financing whom in terrorism circles.
Wow, do you go to Rutgers, by chance? That sounds exactly like the kind of thing they would do just to screw someone over.... sorta like the time they took away my financial aide AFTER the semester was over.
From the story: "I don't trust the banks, or the credit card companies, so I am one of the few people who do EVERYTHING in cash. However, they refused to take the cash. Is it legal for a state-owned university, let alone any business to not take legal tender?" From my extensive legal experience anyone who doesn't trust banks which are fully backed by the federal government shouldn't be using federal notes either. I can't believe a flake like this gets a story on slashdot while my legitimate posts on technology go unposted.
The "grown up job that doesn't pay cash" is really the only big problem, but even then you can go to a check cashing place and pay an exorbitant rate to get your cash. I mean, you don't *have* to do direct deposit. Manage your expenses wisely, and you'll never need a loan or a mortgage.
If you need a credit card equivalent, try PrivaCash. I heard about it on a privacy website. It's basically a pre-paid debit card that isn't tied to your name. You can pick up preloaded cards in stores, but if you want to reload them, you have to deal with the bank that backs them. You can't do things like rent cars or do other things where access to a debt source is used in the place of a deposit, but you can make purchases online.
Really, though, unless you are planning on living completely off the record as much as possible once your stint in a university is done, go for a credit union. It's like a bank, only not evil (or at worst significantly less evil). Avoiding a bank is very, very hard in modern life. For more details about what you lose in terms of privacy and how to protect yourself to a limited extent, check out the book "How to be Invisible" by C.C. Luna.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
So, what part of "this bill is legal tender for all debts, public and private" doesn't the university get?
But we've seen this before. Back in the mid-seventies, a friend had just gotten into the Merchant Marine. He and a friend came ashore in Galveston, and wanted to rent a car to drive back home to Philly. Car rental place refused to accept cash. They offered to put their entire paychecks as a deposit - something like $5,000 in mid-1970's dollars - and the car company refused.
Bout 10 years later, the car companies were grudgingly accepting money....
mark
Because the courthouse will not accept checks or credit cards. When the State absolutely positively needs to get paid, they do demand cash. Sure, they will accept checks on stuff like tags and licenses, but if you ever get arrested, it is cash or money order, and that is about it.
I think that "legal tender" only applies to settling debts. Since you have not yet incurred a debt with these people you cannot insist that they accept legal tender.
;-)
If you think I'm wrong I don't think you'll have any trouble finding a lawyer that will take cash in advance
-Peter
Now I do NOT have a checking account, a credit card, or anything. I don't trust the banks, or the credit card companies, so I am one of the few people who do EVERYTHING in cash.
Sounds like an anti-capitalist corporations-are-evil,-dude/stick-it-to-the-man type hippie.
Yeah, I said it, big whoop, mod me down like I care.
You just got troll'd!
I guess that my point is that doing basic transactions in cash works fine up to a point. As other posters have said, at some point you will want to buy a car, house, boat, whatever that will cost a lot of money. While you may find some people willing to sell you these things using cash, the vast majority of these transactions require a credit check (of which you have none) and a loan or, at the very least, a certified cashier's check. Get a bank account and quit whining.
I don't doubt it. My point was that it's not a novel idea, lots of peopel have done it before.
However, as a side note, I once suggested as a small child (perhaps 7 or 8) that it only made sense for the world to go completely to electronic currency. I kept trying to convince adults that physical currency is not only inconvenient, but it is easier to steal, and harder to track.
To the contrary, I think electronic currency is frighteningly easy to steal. And why do I want my spending tracked?
Posting anon, for obvious reasons.
Back in the day, we had a pissed off taxpayer and his wife bring in several thousand dollars in pennies. At the time, we had real teller functions in most cities and they took their money-handling chores seriously and by-the-book. All cash payments were *required* (no exceptions) to be counted out twice in the presence of the person paying.
The manager saw the situation, got approval to put a teller on overtime, and started counting. They stressed to the taxpayers that they *must* remain present during the count. This was fairly early in the morning. After a few hours, some things began to change. Everytime the taxpayer needed to go to the bathroom, the count had to stop and everyone left the room. No lunch. No breaks.
Asshole taxpayer got bored. Then he got tired and cranky. Then he and his wife got into it. A screaming match ensued with the wife berating her husband for his stupid idea. "Yeah, you really showed them, didn't you?!" By that evening, she ripped the car keys out of his hand and left, telling him he could get a cab home. This was in a large, non-compact city with poor public transport and, at the time, only a shell of a taxi system. Telling him to catch a cab home was the equivalent of telling him to burn in hell.
Around midnight, the count finished. The jerk was shellshocked. He called a cab and proceeded to go stand out by the highway and wait for it. I don't know if it ever came.
I feel certain, however, that Mr. Idiot never tried another stunt like that.
I thought the same until I went to switch cell phone providers.
The company I wanted to switch to required an obscene deposit if you had no credit history. If you had some credit, there was no deposit. That's when I found out that credit was also about trust. What you've done with your money in the past is a good predictor of what you will do with your money in the future.
I used a credit card for a little while (buy something, pay off that month) to build up some credit. Now I still have the card, but I never use it. (I've actually been meaning to cancel the card for a while.) I have absolutely zero debt at the moment, and I don't plan on acquiring any anytime soon. But I DO have some credit, and I'm sure that will serve me well at some point in the future.
I suppose that this is one of the side effects of a global / national scale economy. It used to be that you could earn the trust of people you did business with because they knew you. As more and more things move outside of the local scale, there needs to be some other measure of whether or not they should do business with you. For better or for worse, it seems your credit rating has become that measure.
You are mistaken. Your score benefits from your regular payments, even if your payment is the full balance.
Trust them about what, exactly? If you're some paranoid idiot who dislikes THE MAN, just go to a fucking credit union. Do you have a job? How do you get paid, then?
Seriously, grow the fuck up.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Do you keep it under your mattress? Hope you have a really good safe in your apt/house. I make >$100k per year and last year my house was broken into TWICE. You know what they stole? Macbook, No. Stereo? No. iPOD, No. 2 bass guitars? No.
They stole the spare change I keep in a pile on my nightstand next to my bed.
In the SF area this is quite common as the thieves know there are lots of people that keep quite a bit of cash and jewelry in their house (the stereotype is Asians). I have no cash in my house 'cept what's in my wallet (and the pile of spare change). Now, I own this house (pay a mortgage), and I know exactly who has a key, as I changed the locks on the doors when I moved in. A dorm? You can't install your own deadbolts, chains etc. The maintenance staff has keys to your room and _will_ go in there when you aren't around (ex. to test the smoke detector).
One other thing to think of.. Let's say you have all your savings in your apt/house/dorm and there's a fire. What do you do now? If my local bank branch office burns to the ground, I still have my money.
Sorry buddy, "not trusting" banks may sound cool to the those who hate "the man", but it's not practical, or financially sound.
Write a manifesto, but no complaints when the feds haul your cabin off on the back of a flatbed. Face facts: either you like the modern life enough to pay its price of admission or you don't.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
... I've experienced something similar to this young individual's plight. I live within a commute to DC. I drive a chunk of the way up and then go to the Metro station. Well a few years ago, I pulled into the garage and saw that parking was $3.75, to be paid on exit. No where when I entered the structure did it say, it had to be paid on a Metro card.
At the end of the day I went to leave and found I couldn't without going to buy a metro card. So I go to buy one for $3.75. WRONG! They charged me $5.00 to buy the card and told me that I could not buy one for less then $10.00. Sounds fishy right? Sadly it is all perfectly legal.
The parking garage is a privately owned operation. So I was subjected to having to use their currency. Next, I asked in a letter to them why I was force to spend $10.00 to get out of a $3.75 parking garage. They explained that attendants were stealing from them, so they are passing the bill to me to buy the technology of having to use their card. Next they mentioned that the card could / would be useable for the Metro too. I was livid, but had no course of action for within the station, it posted that the garage fee was to be paid via a metro card and those were the terms of using the service.
So as I've read the Treas.gov link I realized even more so how F'd up this system is.
When we see the $ we naturally assume cash because that is how we've been trained to think. $ = money. So really the terminology should be changed, to Credit or Check value without the use of $'s. It is a huge undertaking, but if you expect people to use your currency you should define it before services are ever rendered which allows the customer / client to decide if it is indeed worth bringing their business to you.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
That's old testament law. It was done away with when Christ fulfilled it.
It is a shame that CYA is such an entrenched part of our society. I'm not faulting you for your attitude. I just can't help thinking that as a people we'd be better off without all the double speak, legal loopholes, and so forth.
Banks sell your info. Read the privacy policy. Read the weasel words they stick in, usually near the end, where they say they do go ahead and provide information where permitted by law. Sounds like they are restricted, but selling your information to marketing and credit businesses is permitted by law and they are basically saying they will do it. And most do it, even when you ask them not to. Then if you threaten to close the account if they don't stop, they will let you close the account because they are probably losing money on you, anyway.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
There are money order and check cashing places on every other corner around UIC. Just take your cash to them, pay your 5% ludite fee, and pay the damn bill.
-GiH
We call them "paychecks" and checks, but for most businesses all this stuff is transferred directly to bank accounts. I get a paper record of my pay on a paper, but the money just "appears" in my account at 2AM on payday. Some businesses still work the old way, but most employees of such companies find that very annoying :-)
:-) I don't even receive paper bills from utilities anymore. Cable/phone/internet bill is in electronic format, same with electricity bill. I pay both online.
Most government payouts (tax returns among other things) are treated the same way.
The only thing I still use checks for is my rent, because my landlord is an individual. Banks usually collect rent and mortgage payments automatically from your account. Insurance premiums are done the same way. My money mostly goes in the account by itself, and comes out the same way
There are small businesses around that won't take credit/debit cards, but they are very rare. Taxi cabs started getting equipped with the machines a few years ago, but they are still uncommon and are one of the few reasons I keep some cash on me. You can request a cab that will take debit/credit cards though if you want.
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
Other posts are saying "Paper money only has value because we have faith in it having value", usually arguing in favor of a precious-metal standard instead.
The non-rhetorical question is: What makes precious metals any different? Why do precious metals have any value other than the value we have faith in their having?
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
What you describe is extremely counterproductive for landlords. Where to begin?
- As a landlord, you don't pay much tax on your buildings. Because you're only paying tax on your profits, and expenses are astronomical in the rental industry, and you are allowed to depreciate your property for tax purposes, often landlords will show a tax LOSS (or a modest profit), even while turning plenty of profit. Even if you underreport your income, you won't decrease your tax liability by much or anything at all.
- When you are applying for a loan or attempting to sell a building, you want to show that building to be operating as profitably as possible. Non-residential real estate is priced based on a multiple of the building's earnings (as opposed to comps), so if you are only declaring 50% or 75% of your rental receipts, you have just decreased the value of your building! Also, you will make it much harder to get a loan because banks want to see earnings. And yes, they absolutely do look at your tax returns.
- When deciding where to be, erm.., creative on your taxes, always remember the following maxim: If you're caught overdeducting, you pay a fine. If you underreport income, you go to jail.
- You open yourself up to fair housing problems. Picture this: a tenant doesn't pay his rent, so you evict. Nothing fancy there. But let's say that this nonpaying tenant is black, and wants to mess with you because he's mad that you evicted him (or he really feels discriminated against. Doesn't matter.).
Bottom line, this is really the wrong industry to underreport your income in. This is why, even with all of the shady landlords out there, you never see landlords being busted for underreporting.Example. Many landlords like a unit to cash flow $100/mo after expenses (mortgage, taxes, insurance, repairs, maintenance, advertising, vacancy, collections, credit loss, etc.) That $100/mo can easily be swallowed up by depreciating the building. Of course, depreciating the building will lower your cost basis and increase your capital gain when you sell the property, but google "1031" for more information on how to fix that little snag.
He calls some infomercial contingency-fee lawyer, sues you for fair housing violations, and during discovery, finds out that ALL of your tenants are underpaying. By 25-50%! But a quick glance at the court records reveals that you did not evict all of them. Why did you single out this one tenant, hmm? Oh, you are in for a costly court battle, settlement, and/or judgment now. Unless you are prepared to testify under oath that you belong in jail for underreporting your income. (And prepared to pay your attorney $10,000.00 for the privilege)
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Don't know if it was mentioned elsewhere, but just go out and get yourself a Money Order. Yes, you will have to pay a small fee in order to get it, but Money Orders are great alternatives to checks and you can pay for one with cash. If you're in the US I know that any currency exchange will be able to give you one, or barring that you might be able to find a bank willing to do it.
"Life's short and hard, like a body building elf." -- The Bloodhound Gang
In it, a right wing group seizes control of the government, then completely removes women from the economy by the simple method of deactivating all the Financial cards (everyone carried electronic devices rather than cash) where "sex = F".
It should be a trivial mental exercise for the reader to imagine parallel issues.
WTF will he do when he gets a job. Almost every employer now requires direct deposit. Will you tell them "fuck you, i don't trust banks."
Your a student at their university and you can't spell lose. So this is their way of telling you have been expelled.
lose != loose
If they'll take a money order, the quick and easy fix is to go to the nearest post office and get a money order. This doesn't cost very much, and you don't have to involve a bank. Trusting the USPS (that issues the money order) is not substantially different from trusting the treasury (that issues the cash).
Yes, there *is* a small cost for the money order, but you have to weigh that against the cost of your time, calling up the housing department dude's superior, and his superior, and giving them one earful after another until they hate you, and so on and so forth -- all of which may get the problem resolved, or may not. Or the cost of a lawyer, which is even more.
BTW, the USPS is the most cost-effective place to get a money order. Everyplace else charges at least as much, often more.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
I'll have no part of that for a few reasons:
- I live in the city. All the even close to affordable houses are well outside what I consider a reasonable commuting range.
- It's just plain cheaper to rent. Sure, I'm not storing up equity, but really neither are a lot of people on subprime mortgages. At least the money I'm saving is being put into investments.
- I predict that once the baby boomers get a decade into retirement (with no kids in the house and failing health) a lot of them are going to start moving out of houses; many of them will be moving into "assisted living" centers. Houses in areas near good schools are going to get a LOT cheaper in the next ten years. At that time, I'll reevaluate whether owning a home is a good thing or not, but unless you can solidly plan to put down roots for the next 30 years where you are right now, owning a home might be an unwise investment.
Leasing is silly if your end goal is to own.So? What makes owning such a great goal to have in the first place? If your privacy or your paranoia is so important to you that you'd go through life without a bank account, then going without owning the house you live in isn't so bad in comparison.
Frankly, I'm paying about 1/2 to 2/3 what I'd pay for a mortgage on a home or condo in my area. My insurance is significantly cheaper, and I wouldn't have enough deductions to qualify for a tax break anyway.
Consider this wise or unwise as you wish, but I was able to live for half a year without a paycheck to go volunteer in the local election last year, and I had no fear of losing a place to live. I know that I'm fortunate to be in a very high income bracket due to my choice of careers, but I could get by comfortably with a third of my income because I live below my means.
Home ownership is overrated, if you ask me.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
he may bee referring to security sensitive government jobs, they run a lot of background checks to get someone a security clearance. it wouldn't surprise me if a credit check was one of them; not because your required to have good credit to work for the government, but because it is one more way for them to validate you are who you say you are.
lose != loose
I don't mean to deflate the "That's Preposterous!" bubble (because I totally agree that all businesses should take cash for privacy reasons), but...
Money Orders are $0.75 at a US Post Office, last I checked.
So spend 15 minutes, pay an extra 75 cents, and secure your on-campus housing.
Then, come back and continue the conversation.
Resistance is futile. Your technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will become one with the morgue
Go to 7/11 and get a money order (which you can pay for with cash) and give that to them. The reason why they don't accept cash is the same reason why you're not supposed to send cash through the mail, it's too easy for somebody to pocket it and say they never received it. BTW, doing something to start building credit (like opening a credit card with no annual payment) would be a good thing if you ever want to get a decent loan for a house or a car.
I haven't carried cash in years. Even small purchases like fast-food I use plastic.
I can transfer funds with my free online banking within seconds, and you don't even have to bother depositing a check.
With services like PayPal I can even make small microtransactions with ease.
My wife sells sex toys for PureRomance. When she does parties, she doesn't have a swipe or a computer handy. She literally makes a rubbing of the card, and enters the transaction later.
We don't touch cash, and literally the only time we ever need to is to pay a parking meter.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
A store, yes.
A government institution requiring you to go to some non-governmental party and give them the cash, and then return with a piece of paper or plastic to pay for something, however, is a bit iffy.
Especially as many of those third parties are discriminatary based on amount of money you have, charging differing fees and interest depending on what sort of money you have. If you need to pay 1000 dollars, and only have 1000 dollars, than, at most banks, you'll be below a required daily average and hit with a fee, or have to pay money for a money order, or all sorts of things that are going to cost you about 1002 dollars by the end. Whereas if you have have 10,000 dollars, you can throw that in a bank account, write a 1000 dollar check, and close the account the next day without a fee. If you have a high enough credit rating, you can get a credit card, pay with that, get some money back, and close the account making a profit! Yes, that seems trivial, but it's utterly inane to allow our government to require us to use third parties with random fee structures, where some people end up paying more based on semi-random things.
Schools, and all government agencies, should be required to accept cash, even for non-debts. I don't know if they are required, but they should be.
If the some government institution truly doesn't want to deal with cash, it would be rather trivial to create a national free deposit system at, say, post offices, which have to deal with valuable stuff anyway. Or at courthouses.(1) Where if you owned the government some money, you could walk in there and pay it in cash and have it forwarded to whatever agency at whatever level of government.
And, before anyone says postal orders, postal orders are not free. Now, it would be trivial to make them free if they were written to government agencies...
Hell, courthouses could profit from that internally. At my courthouse, a small one, there are at least three seperate areas that accept cash: The property tax/car tax/car tag office (They were smart enough to combine these with the same back-area.), the court itself for fines and such, and the marriage/fishing/hunting license office. And probably some more I don't know about. And, across the street, the library. (And I think bail is paid at the jail, but confusingly fines are paid at the courthouse.) How much expensive handling of money would be saved if there are literally one place where you gave the county government money?
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
As a child I wasn't paranoid of such things. I thought only crooks would really have something to hide, and it would make life more difficult for criminals.
I basically operate solely on electronic funds. Every bill I have each month is paid electronically, and I receive my money electronically. All other purchases are made with my credit card, usually over a computer.
I've never had an issue with theft of electronic funds, and if I did, I'd be reimbursed the funds.
When someone steals my cash, I am not reimbursed anything.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
I sincerely hope you filed a formal complaint with MC, Visa, AMEX, or whoever. A vendor signs a contract when they start taking credit cards. That contract invariably says they'll accept the card for purchases. If they can pick and choose, they'll deny the cc company valuable business. Card companies hate that.
Ever see at the cash reigster those little signs that say "Minimum credit card purchase $10"? A simple complaint to the card companies will usually result in a letter to the merchant telling them that they are obligated to accept the card for all purchases. A threat of pulling the merchant authorization is always included. Those little signs disappear in short order.
I can't imagine how strongly a cc company would hit a car dealership that robbed the cc company of as much business as you're talking about.
What's ironic here is that an account at the bank, if only to be used as a clearing account in a situation like this, would actually *help*. Banks are beginning to offer accounts with virtually no fees so long as you keep a minimum amount of cash on deposit with them, usually $1,000 or so. I presume this is because most people these days go paycheque to paycheque and leave virtually nothing in their accounts in the meantime.
I can sympathize with the poster's situation, since I deal almost exclusively in cash myself. However, you know what I do when someone asks for payment in a form other than cash? I go to my bank, and they draft up a money order free of charge out of my savings account. I have yet to pay a single service fee to my bank for anything.
So, there's really no excuse for not having a bank account. Go open a savings account at your local bank or credit union, and use it as a clearing account for christ's sake. It's not like the hundred or thousand dollar deposit that you'll have to declare on your tax return will really make a difference, will it?
I love your spirit. Mostly would not work here in Canada,
;).
Mostly regarding postages. They just bounce it back to you no questions asked. The only "trick" is to mark the return address as the destination. But it is a fraud to do so.
>> they aren't going to chase anybody up for a lousy quid fifty;
Many of my services (phone, electricity) charges a 5$ fee for any "late payment". I learned this by a "$5.12" added to my bill one month. It was all my fault.
I got a cheque from my provincial government for 34 cents once. At the time it cost 42 cents to send an envelope, but they surely have bulk rates
In today's all computerized accounts, they don't care if you own them 50 cents or 10 dollars. When payment is due a bill is automatically printed and sent.
Even if you cut the payment by one cent, it will simply be added to your next bill.
For one shot providers, they can send notice to credit-bureaus. It does not say "This smart-ass customer did not pay 1 cent" it rather say:
"2005/03/12 - insufficient fund payment"
"2005/04/12 - no payment received"
"2005/05/12 - no payment received"
"2005/06/12 - no payment received - sent to recovery agency"
What I do is the reverse, I OVER-PAY by a few cents or a dollar. They will then study the record, print a check and post it, often with a nice letter. Most business hates it when they own money to customers.
Credit cards are funny for that, if the due amount is different than zero they print and send an envelope. When I get pissed of at one, I will overpay by 1 cent, and keep laughing once a month when I receive the "due amount: (0.01) credit DO NOT PAY".
Mismanaged credit-cards can definitely lead to debt, but using one correctly can lead to profit. I pay my card off fully every paycheque (before the bill-date, even). I also get flight points on mine, and got a $650 flight for $75 (they don't pay the taxes).
I've never paid interest on the card, nor other fees.
Not only that, but CC's are a good way to protect a purchase. If you have a scammy seller - maybe that won't honor a warranty on a recently-broken item - or various other issues with a purchase, you can in many cases charge it back. That doesn't work so well with cash...
It wasn't that they wouldn't accept cow, it's that they didn't have two chickens and a hog to make change with at the time!
... though *I* had the courtesy to roll up my coins before paying with them. You've got to remember though. A pizza place in a college town, especially one that will deliver to the dorms, EXPECTS that kind of thing. Broke-ass college students scrounging for change on $5 pizza night is the market they've decided to cater to.
(Even after I got out of college, I tried my best to live near universities for that very reason. Hungrie Howies had a large 1-topping carry-out for $5.99 all week long, and $4.99 on wednesdays. Sooo nice to have that sort of deal available, even when you're not reliant on it anymore.)
Go shopping at a nice store in The City, though, and expect to pay with a sack full of pennies; and you'll get a quite different treatment.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
I really don't get people who are afraid of banks and credit cards. Do you think that cash is somehow guaranteed while the money in your bank account or on your credit card isn't? The value of cash is tied to your government. Sure, in the US it *seems* pretty secure, but that doesn't mean it is. Plenty of countries throughout history have seen the value of their cash drop to nothing (a wheelbarrow full of Deutsch Marks for a loaf of bread anyone?). Unless you've got gold and diamonds in a safe in your house, your money is never guaranteed to be valuable. So get over yourself and get a checking account and a credit card. You're honestly just putting yourself behind by not having them. If you can't handle the responsibility of keeping track of your finances and paying your credit card bills on time, then you're just as lost with cash as you'll be with anything else. Also, it's much better to have no cash and some credit than to have no cash and no credit. Always remember, "he who dies with the most debt wins."
Frag 'em all...
You don't trust the banks? Grow up.
Since cash doesn't leave a trail, unlike a check, and it is not made out to the intended payee, i.e. the business, it is much easier for employees to steal it and then claim the customer never made the payment.
This is the reason businesses like this insist on checks and similar instruments. It is not some government mandated thing.
Simple solution: Have a friend write the check for $100, give them the check. Basically the same idea as the cashiers check option/money order mentioned above, minus the fee.
My UID is the product of 2 primes.
So, how do you do anything?
Check into a hotel - credit card required for damage and incidentals.
Rent a car.
Take a trip abroad for a month? Just tape a few grand to your ass?
Banks may be out to nickel and dime you with lame fees, but that's FAR safer than never having emergency options and always having a load of cash on you. Remember that if you're robbed of a credit card, it's far easier to see justice down the line than if someone takes all your "legal tender".
And you're likely insane if you're not keeping all your cash in a bank's safety deposit boxes. Gonna prove to your insurance agency that your life's savings was under your bed when your apartment caught fire?
Stubborn zealots and Slashdot...
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
I'll admit that I use my debit card for almost everything. I still like having the option of using cash though if only for one reason that I didn't mention in my previous post. As long as we use paper currency if my debit card gets lost or stolen I can drive to the bank and withdraw money to pay for things while I wait for a new card to be issued and mailed to me. Surviving for a few days without any way of paying for necessities like gas, food, or medicine gets much harder. Not every store accepts checks and not all places of business accept payment over the phone.
As I see it, those folks that constantly rail against "fiat" currencies and yearn for some sort of "backed" currency, should wonder what to back their currency with? gold? silver? diamonds? uranium? petroleum? or any economic goods/resources?
The problem with any of these physical manifestation is that they are either scarce (the definition of an economic good), or are subject to spontaneous dillution (in the case of gold by digging it out of the ground) meaning the total value is subject to random discoveries.
Although gold was generally considered valuable in-itself and thus tradable (remember even gold money is just a token for exchange), there are many factors to consider. What if "gold" (or whatever backing good was chosen) was suddenly more valuable (either due to a fashion fad, or a genuine economic discovery like say gold semiconductors for quantum computers). The economic value of "gold" would compete with the "backing" value of "gold". Or perhaps "gold" became less valuable (say somehow it could be extracted by killing babies or burning down rain-forests).
If you think these things are unlikely, think about deBeers and diamonds and African wars...
This is not to mention the fact that services (at least in the new economy) seem to have a greater aggregate net value that all the capital goods (meaning there aren't enough capital goods to even back the current amount of "wealth"). It seems very short sighted to base a token for exchange on something that is limited by production of available capital goods (because that would limit growth).
I agree that fiat currency isn't the best situation to be in, but lacking a solid 'value' alternative, it just strikes me as just a lot of whining about "the-man"
1) Get a damn money order, it'll cost you a couple bucks.
2) Go to a Credit Union, they're far better than banks. Many offer debit/credit cards if you wish.
Out of curiousity, how do you recieve your income check? Most banks don't cash checks unless you have an account, or charge for the pleasure. The only place to cash a substantial check is at a check-cashing broker, which also charge a good-sized fee. Being from a small town, I know things are different there; one can usually cash a fair-sized check on their reputation alone, but the city is different. MAybe you have a trusted friend/family member playing middle-man?
Honestly, building a good credit record is a good thing. How many people are able to pay for a car/house/large whatever with cash outright. Even if you have enough cash for the down payment it still can be hard to structure a payment plan for the balance if you've got no credit history. Getting a house is basically essential for the financial success of most people these days, as it frees you from burning money on rent and instead builds your own equity.
...so I think getting a job will be a bit problematic.
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
Not to be rude, but what, exactly, is not to be trusted? Do you think they're going to steal your money? Go under? Did you live thru the depression, and are yet somehow currently enrolled in college? Were you raised by elderly parents or grandparents who did? Privacy concerns?
My opinion, your money is way safer in a reputable financial institution than in a pickle jar in your dorm room closet. WTF?
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Just go get a money order from the post office or even a convenience store.
Better yet, just go ahead and give the money to a friend who does have a checking account, and have them write the check for you.
I spent about 6 months of my life without a bank account (it's a long story, but not necessarily an unusual one.) It really wasn't that bad. I could endorse checks over to a friend who cashed them for me through their own bank account. I took my paychecks and endorsed them directly to my landlord, who would give me cash back if I overpaid.
Obviously there was a certain amount of inconvenience, and I was spreading that inconvenience around onto my friends who had to go to the bank occasionally.
On the other hand, if you are dealing only with cash, you spend your money very differently. There was an article recently about how spending cash activates pain receptors in the brain, but using credit cards does not (and I suspect the same for debit cards as well.) When I didn't have bank accounts, I was much more careful with the money I spent. To this day, if I find myself spending too much, I flip back to cash for a bit and force myself that way to budget.
The slashdot community is full of people who have always had money in their lives, in some way, so many of the responses here are incredulous at the idea of someone who could live without bank accounts and credit. It's done all the time. It really isn't that big a deal.
On a practical operational point, if you have cash and need a check, get a money order or cashier's check. The cost is modest. If your point is to minimize monitoring, open a checking account and use it prudently. You will attract less attention than if you try very hard to fly below the observational radar. The attempt to fly below the observational radar in and of itself makes the flyer of definite interest to both agencies monitoring criminal activity as well as governmental organizations concerned with terrorism. You do not want to have them deciding you are up to no good.
There are very few things in which you can place absolute trust (outside of death and taxes). The question is, what is least untrustworthy? There are lots of potential subjects of interest. If you don't want observation, do not draw attention to yourself. Note, living in a cash world or not, you still will need to file income tax forms when you have income. The IRS can be quite difficult to deal with if you do not have appropriate documentation.
Here are the criteria you put forth for taking on debt:
- Use of funds must be a huge amount of money proportional to your salary
- Saving up the funds is impractical or purchaser lacks the discipline to save
- Can afford 2x the "minimum payment"
So answer me this, should I buy a $50,000 diamond ring for my wife on a jewelry-store consumer loan? After all, $50,000 is a huge amount of money proportional to my salary, the minimum payment on a consumer loan is typically 4% of principal, which would be $2000. I could afford double. And, yes, I think it's impractical to save up $50,000 for a hunk of carbon. So I should head to the jewelry store then, no?On the other hand, let's say I can buy a 25 unit apartment building for $1,000,000.00. Definitely a huge amount of money compared with my salary. Saving the funds is no doubt impractical, if not impossible. Can I afford 2x the minimum payment? Well, the minimum payment would be about $8000, so no, I could not afford double that.
On the flip side, if the units rent for $600 apiece, I have inflows of $15,000 per month, minus expenses. Net net, we're probably looking at a positive cash flow on the building of approximately $3000/mo.
You would have advised me never to purchase this building because I couldn't make 2x the minimum payment. In my opinion, your test is defective, because the building is a good purchase.
Now we see that what you do with the money is way more important than the amount of money involved.
Why does taking on debt to buy a home make sense? Because you have a housing payment anyway, and you might as well be building up equity and deducting the mortgage interest.
Why does buying a car on credit make sense? Why would you want to have that much money tied up in a rapidly depreciating asset? Anyhow, you should buy a used car. New cars are a ripoff.
Why does remodeling your home on a home equity loan make sense? Because you are investing in your property and increasing its value.
Good Debt is for investment, when you expect a return on that investment that is much higher than the cost of funds. The only exception that I can think of to that rule is your primary residence, and that is for the reason that I gave above: you're making a housing payment anyway. Why not pay yourself?
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
While I agree in principle with what you've said, could you tell me where to go to find a bank account that beats inflation? As far as I know, the only banks that provide that sort of interest rate are online-only establishments. My big national bank (Wachovia) only gives 0.55% on its savings accounts and only 3.43% on money market accounts... with nearly half a million dollars in them. All of my assets put together couldn't top 3% on their money market account scale, and CPI inflation was 3.8% last year.
So far, I'm beating inflation only because of my mutual fund investments. I could transfer them all into a money market account but I'd lose a HUGE return on investment, so a bank account is just a way to lose money more slowly than by keeping it all in cash as far as I'm concerned.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
You can take off your tinfoil hat and join the rest of us here in Realityland, that's what you can do.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
I'm under the impression that much of cash-only society is not interested in high-profile activities such as university enrollment. By attending a university, one has the opportunity to learn and experience things one might not otherwise have to opportunity to learn. Participating in modern banking also opens many doors that are closed to the cash-only community.
It seems that refusal to use banks in any way indicates that the OP is resistant to expanding his/her horizon.
Christ said multiple times he comes not to destroy the Word but to uphold it. I mean, it's wacky contradictions galore throughout the Bible but most Christian scholars don't think Christ did away with the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17 is the best example.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
My advice is to grow up, walk to the local convienience store, and for less than a $1 fee (in most cases) in addition to your $100 you can get a money order for $100, walk back to school and get on with your education.
You may have a point, and you may even be right, but what do you gain by arguing with the people that determine where you will live next school year over such an (honestly) minor point? You have choosen to "live off the grid" (no banks, no credit cards, etc.), and this is why you are having a problem - you are trying to pick and choose the individual pieces of the system you like (campus housing, public university education, etc.), and ignore the ones you don't (the modern banking system), and you (apparently) run to slashdot when something doesn't go your way...
If this is the first seemingly "bizzare" exchange with a large, government entity, consider yourself lucky - you will have many more before your body is recycled...
Ken
Not that I'm flush with cash, but I've had fewer problems with ING Direct than some people have with physical banks. My primary checking account is US Bank, though.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
It sucks, but that is not an unreasonable request - though I would try to get them to reduce the fee by the cashier's check charge since I believe they are legally required to accept cash.
The mortgage is still better over the long run because some of the money goes back to you, not to someone else. Let's suppose for example that you had the option of buying a place with a 30 year 8% fixed mortgage and the payments were going to be $800/month (about $110,000 for those wondering) or you were offered to rent a place for the same price with the rent fixed. Now let's say you live there for 10 years. At the end of the 10 years renting, all your money ($115,200) has gone to someone else. You've nothing to show for it. However at the end of 10 years of mortgage, you only owe $95,620 on your mortgage. So while most of your money went to someone else, some of it came back to you. Thus assuming your place didn't significantly decrease in value, you can get some money when you sell it.
Of course the longer the time frame, the more true this is. So if you are moving around often then no buying may not be great, but if you stay in one place it is, even if you assume everything else to be equal.
But of course as you pointed out everything else is NOT equal. Landlords will raise rent as inflation happens and/or as prices go up and allow them to. A fixed mortgage, well, fixed, the payments stay constant. Then of course there's the fact that property essentially never decreases in value over long time scales. So as long as you hold it for a good amount of time you will make money. Finally there's the whole tax deduction thing. Sure, when you are first paying a new mortgage it is much like rent is that almost all your money is going to someone else. However, you get to write all that interest off your taxes and that is nothing to sneeze at.
While buying doesn't make sense in every case I really don't understand this attitude I often encounter online of "You are an idiot if you get a mortgage." No, not really. You just have to be willing to live in one spot for a good amount of time (5 years minimum is a good rule of thumb) and it is well worth it.
When I first bought my house, it was kind of a pain since I really couldn't charge that much in rent compared to what I owe on the mortgage. Now, 5 years later, prices have gone up a decent bit and rent is quite a bit more. I find I am able to offer what is considered quite cheap rent and cover the half of the mortgage payment that I'd like. Nothing has chanced on how much I need to pay, rent has just gone up as a whole and thus I can raise mine too.
I second that on ING Direct. It's not the top rate in the whole country, but I feel it's reliable, and it's giving 4.50% APY at the moment. Of course, when you throw taxes into the calculation, it's just barely scraping above the inflation rate.
Sounds like a prime chance for companies to create their own high fee, high interest cash alternatives and force people to pay with those. Sorry - can't pay at Walmart without an EvilWally card. Don't like that? Go shop somewhere else then. What, we already put all the other businesses out of business? Guess your just fscked then.
Seems like any business that has a strong hold ovr their market could easily force people to pay in whatever means they want, with whatever strings they want to attach, and there isn't much consumers can do about it.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Blah! I hope you aren't responsible for setting up the support lines there at the IRS. I've been having an issue and the online system doesn't tell me anything at all, the phone system keeps routing me to an automated system that also doesn't tell me anything (and every number I've tried where I followed the prompts eventually gets me to that same system), and when I cheated and pressed the wrong numbers to get to a real person they refussed to help me because I couldn't answer the security questions which are evidently from the tax paperwork submitted, not by me - which is why I'm trying to find out what someone else submitted and if I'm going to get my refund or if they got my refund, so that there is no possible way for me to answer the questions. The real person on the phone couldn't even direct me to a fruad line or tell me if going to an IRS office in person will allow me to prove my identity.
I'm tempted to just correct the situation by not paying my taxes next year. Maybe then someone would contact me. Maybe I can just deny that I'm me since obviously they have someone else pretending to be me. Maybe that person can get stuck paying my taxes.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
In short, cash is exceedingly hard to trace. Yes, even with receipts. Receipts can be forged, deposits can be fudged, and cash can "just vanish without a trace". And forget about asking where George is, that's just an experiment.
So, that said, the university has to take a means that reduces lossage. Take certifiable or tractable funds. You know, checks, credit cards, money orders, cashiers checks, that sort of thing.
Word of advice: get a checking account, or look into options like MIO or ADP. If you really don't like banks, find a good credit union.
This sig no verb.
The lease vs. buy equation for a house is similar to anything else.
How long do you plan to own it?
What is the net present value of all of your expenses if you lease or rent for that period of time?
What is the net present value of all your expenses if you buy then sell at the end of the time period?
Since there are a variety of different mortgage plans out there, you should really be comparing each mortgage plan as well as the best rental option.
Use a range of realistic estimates for time period, costs, resale value, and the interest rate used in calculating the net present value. You will find it's either a no-brainer to rent, a no-brainer to buy, or the decision is within the range of uncertainty of your estimates.
In some cities, it may be cheaper to buy than rent on the high-end and cheaper to rent than buy on the low-end of the market, and in other cities it may be the other way around.
Oh, don't forget quality of life issues. Most people pick a neighborhood before they pick a house. The neighborhood may be almost all sale-only or almost all rental, which sort of moots the entire exercise.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
We are his psych 101 study in human behavior.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Gold and silver both have intrinsic value. They both make decent teeth fillings and gold is better than copper in electronics. If aesthetic value is intrinsic, both have value in jewelry-making.
Unfortunately, they cost more than their intrinsic value.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Too bad the local Kwik-E-Mart doesn't take Linden Dollars.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Set up a system where I, the landlord, stamp all currency with "for deposit only, ACME Apartments, ACME Acres Bank." The ink is indelible and traceable to me. Just to make things very clear to anyone that thought they could remove the ink, I would punch a hole in the portrait.
At this point, the currency becomes void for anything other than depositing in my bank. In effect, it becomes a check marked "for deposit only."
For this privilege, I pay the bank a fee to cover their costs of buying new bills from the Federal Reserve and their costs of handling the transaction, plus a small profit for the bank.
Sure, as a landlord instead of paying well under $1 to deposit a $1000 check, I might pay several dollars to deposit a stack of $20s, but at least I don't have to worry about getting robbed.
If I ran a high-cash-volume business like a bar or casino I'd probably sign up for this service in a heartbeat.
Right now this is illegal, but if it became legal universities, landlords, and the like could easily accept cash.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Money orders cost money. The fee is under a dollar if you get it from the right place (like a grocery store), but it can be several dollars if you get it from the wrong place (my bank charges $4 for money orders, $8 for cashier's checks). And then there's the inconvenience of traveling to the store to get one, and the fact that you can only get them in amounts up to $500.
Checking accounts, however, are free from all the major banks. You can deposit, withdraw, and transfer money without paying anyone a dime. You do have to buy a box of checks if you want to write a check, but (1) you get a handful of starter checks for free, and (2) instead of writing checks, you can just use your free debit card to pay anyone who accepts Visa/MC.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
I believe the federal law in cases like this states that once a transaction begins the merchant is required to accept any form of legal tender not excluded PRIOR to the beginning of the transaction.
:)
What does that mean? It means that if you walk into starbucks and order a latte and want to pay for your $10 coffee with a $100 bill they have to take it UNLESS they told you BEFORE beginning the transaction that they don't take $100 bills (usually via a tiny sign on the register saying "Nothing bigger than a $20")
IANAL, and this is something that we covered very briefly in a law class back in freshman year, so someone with better credentials than 6 credits 7 years ago should probably verify this
/~mikeg
" I don't trust the banks, "
Jesus Christ, why? hmm? they going to steal your money? hmmm no. Are they going to report you? No.
In fact you are far more likely to be watched when somneone finds out you only deal in 'cash' anyways.
How are you planning to pay taxes?
Still not convinced? spend 29 cents and get a fucking money order you idiot. You are going to college, please start to THINK.
Here is another clue:
ASk a lawyer for advice, not slashdot.
Wait, there is more...
is your beef with them not telling you? fine, go up the chain of command. If you haven't talked to the dean, you haven't finished yet, no mattter what some peon says.
Or maybe you can just be for money instead of get an education.
Oh, don't forget the best thing you can do at any colleg is make contacts, so be sure to work on your social skill they will get you farther in the long run.
Yes, I know the irony of suggesting social skills after calling you names. See what happens when you don't learn them?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
He didn't say you can't do anything with cash, he suggested the two things you can do with cash that solves this whiners problem.
Sure you can pay your bills with cash, but don't complain to slashdot about having to drive to the gas company/ electric company/ water. etc...
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
a) go to a bank (most offer free checking accounts) and drop in your money, then pay the university
b) go to a postal office or bank and buy a money order for the amount you owe, a small fee might be added for handling though
I mean, that's really a no-brainer. The government is the only entity that has to accept your tender by law, any business can choose not to do business with you for one or another reason, be that your choice of tender (the university, your landlord) or the way you smell (restaurants for example). Legal tender or forced tender is payment that, by law, cannot be refused in settlement of a debt denominated in the same currency. That means that if you want to pay off the university later on (after you did business with them) they cannot refuse your payment in the same currency, that does not mean they cannot refuse the form of payment (truckload of pennies).
There is no federal law prohibiting private businesses, persons or organizations from specifying other methods of payment they choose to accept or refuse, such entitites therefore are free to insist on payment in private currency, for example, or to refuse larger denomination banknotes
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Well, beaver pelts make a nice hat, or coat. Maybe a scarecrow beaver giant?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
After reading most of the comments below, I will summarize for you, Sparky:
1) Money orders are cheap and have a paper trail
2) Universities don't have top notch people to file away cash
3) You really want to keep a big wad of cash under you dorm bed?
4) You WILL need credit in the future, like it or not
5) Banks are federally monitored. My wife works for a bank, I know. If you don't trust banks, don't even bother trusting the government.
6) Use a debit card- paper trail but no interest
7) Don't post stupid questions on the Internet when you could just ask a few friends or family.
8) Large cash exchanges will have to be disputed in court. A debit/credit card dispute is generally easier and more favorable for you to go through.
9) Get mugged lately?
10) Pre-paid debit cards that are not personally traceable.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
There are other ways of sending payments — including by phone and by Internet.
So, in addition to all these other methods, America's system still supports check-writing. Nothing wrong with having additional options, in my opinion.
And if there is a particular method, that's not in use in the States (like by using your GSM-phone), the ability to use checks is not to blame for that...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I take care of the summer reservations for a small beach resort. We don't take cash - If people want to pay cash I tell them to take it to the post office and get a money order and give me that. We're always booked solid, so if someone walks away because of our policy I just move to the next person on my waiting list. Why don't we take cash? Because reservations are handled in Vancouver and the deposits are done at a credit union on Vancouver Island. It's too much of a hassle to ship the cash to the final point, or set up a transfer for a thousand-dollar payment.
Right on the bill it says This note is legal tender for all debts public and private. The key word here is debt. If you go into debt to someone by the legal tender laws they have to take the cash or coins or they forfeit the debt. This doesn't include transactions where you are paying immediatly for a service becuase you are essentially making a deal where I give you this for that and the store can set limits on it. Now if you ran a debt tab at a bar or store and you owed them money they cannot refuse your payment in any legal tender.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
On US Currency, is says "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE".
However, according to the U.S. Treasury, "There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services."
Time's fun when you're having flies. - Kermit the Frog