Linux To Be Installed In Every Russian School

J_Omega writes "According to an article from last week at the Russian IT site CNews, Linux is slated to be installed in every Russian school by 2009. The article makes it appear that it will be going by the (unimaginative) name 'Russian OS.' As stated in the article: 'The main aim of the given work is to reduce dependence on foreign commercial software and provide education institutions with the possibility to choose whether to pay for commercial items or to use the software, provided by the government.' Initial testing installations are supposed to begin next year in select districts. Is 2008/09 the year of Linux on the (Russian) desktop?"

Comments

Great, the penguin goes red!

[DragonTHC]

This is potentially good for Linux and potentially bad for Internet banking.

Let's teach all the russian kids how to hack. This is what we should be doing in the USA.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[eobanb]

In Soviet Russia, Linux hacks you!

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Penguinisto]

This is potentially good for Linux and potentially bad for Internet banking.

Let's teach all the russian kids how to hack. This is what we should be doing in the USA.

Back when I was teaching, I did exactly that.

I had a standing challenge that any kid who managed to pop any of my servers, and show/prove exactly how he or she did it, got a their overall grade bumped by one letter for that semester. The ground rules were simple: they could only break into a server that I controlled. I did it because 1) kids try for it out of curiousity anyway, and 2) they may as well be challenged to study than admonished into ignorance. I went out of my way to include security into the curricula whenever and wherever I could.

Out of six years of teaching, only one student had managed it... he organized the local (Salt Lake City) 2600 chapter. Last I heard he was running his own security consulting firm.

/P

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[WwWonka]

In Soviet Russia, we don't DO "in Soviet Russia" jokes. ...they do you.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[tverbeek]

In Post-Soviet Russia, the students program the computers! What a country!

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[phrostie]

In Russia the OS renames you!

sorry, i couldn't help myself

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[weirdcrashingnoises]

But why would the USA want to teach the Russian kids how to hack?

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[boaworm]

Well atleast we know that, In Soviet Russia, Linux is desktop ready ;-)

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[budgenator]

The Russian Kids that want to hack, know how to hack and how to do it well. If they want to hack, they already have Linux installed because the only thing that embarrass a hacker more than failing to penetrate a target system it's getting his/her own machine p0wned in the attempt.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Nimey]

How'd he bust through your security?

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Virgil Tibbs]

thats what i was going to ask...
he got us so interested in his story but he didnt tell us how it ended properly... :(

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[cyphercell]

This is bad? Seriously, there are more developers going in to Open Source Software. Who's to say that they don't care about security too. This is a good reason for the US Government to push OSS more, but this is not necessarily bad for security on our side, if we keep up. The US still has very good infrastructure, compared to our population, this has always been to our advantage.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a teacher in 9th grade teaching a 12th grade programming class make the same challenge.
I tricked a 12th grader into loading a fake login screen across the network.

i had the A++ from the first month on either way, won her challenge and got banned from computer use for a few months, assumption being nobody else could have.

This was 1992 of course and novell netware was a breeze to fake.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[saxonw12]

Will it be available at RussiaOS.su?

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Penguinisto]

thats what i was going to ask...
he got us so interested in his story but he didnt tell us how it ended properly... :(

Sorry 'bout that; here's (roughly) how he did it:

He got to the Windows NT Server through his student account, shook out a copy of the local SAM, then spent the next few days brute-forcing it on a different machine. I was handed a printed list of every user account and its password on that machine (including the one I used for that box) as evidence. It was cool and scary at the same time; IIRC it took MSFT about six months from that point (which I had submitted to them) to patch the vuln that allowed him to grab it.

/P

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Technician]

i had the A++ from the first month on either way, won her challenge and got banned from computer use for a few months, assumption being nobody else could have.

I was dinking with one of the Radio Shack PC's when they first came out (DOS, BASIC) and they were proud of the blackjack game they wrote. I was playing it with the expected results. They made a passing remark to pay my losses on the way out. I soon discovered that they didn't put limits on the bet input field. I went bust on a few negative amounts and was soon out of the hole. I busted a few more very large negative bets and told them I was ready to settle my account.

I left them guessing how I won a few billion. They never did pay up.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[turing_m]

I'm guessing that he didn't really need the grade boost.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Whiteox]

I for one, welcome our Soviet Linux Educators.....

Don't worry about internet banking... Now we're going to get a massive influx of Linux virii!
And to make matters even more complicated it will be written in Russian!

Tovarich!

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Anonymous Coward]

> This is potentially good for Linux and potentially bad for Internet banking.

    Oh wow, how could we have missed such an obvious connection? You're a fscking genious!

> Let's teach all the russian kids how to hack. This is what we should be doing in the USA.

    Good idea. Using/Running GNU/Linux automatically teaches one to "crack". ...You're a real imbecile!

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you probably mean that, in Soviet russia, the desktop is ready for Linux.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we're going to get a massive influx of Linux virii! Hopefully they'll be released under GPL so that we can all check the viruses for security vulnerabilities.

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[alukin]

Guys! What century you are living in?!!
Red are now may be only China and Belarus though ...
By the way, I am not a big fan of Russsia, I am Ukrainian citizen, but I am quite surprised by those jokes of former centuries.
Tell me guys why a lot of US and EU IT businesses do offshore programming in Russia and Ukraine? Do you still think that Russia is matrioshka, vodka, bear?

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, Linux Installs You!

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Virgil Tibbs]

cheers :D
sounds like he deserved it (possibly) ;)

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[Doug Neal]

I think you probably mean that, in Soviet russia, the desktop is ready for Linux. In Soviet Russia, Linux desktop is ready for YOU! ... got there eventually!

Re:Great, the penguin goes red!

[dedalus2000]

It's formulaic joke from the 80's it's Slashdot what do you expect?

Good for them

[grasshoppa]

I fully encourage any and all large organizations ( like a government ) to move to an OS that suits their needs, or can be tailored as such.

With the hopeful side effect, of course, of a more robust OS for all others involved. Given russia's rather lax attitude towards IP ( which I can't fault them in ), it's questionable whether we will see changes committed back to the tree. But here's hoping!

Re:Good for them

[CastrTroy]

Would they have to? With the GPL, if you make changes and distribute the software to an outside entity, you have to make the source code available. However, if you are a corporation, and make a bunch of changes to some GPL product, but only use it internally within you're corporation, you aren't required to release any of the changes. So if the Russian government makes a bunch of changes but only releases it to be used by government controlled entities such as schools, government offices, police, and military are they required to release the source? I would think not.

Re:Good for them

[kebes]

Given russia's rather lax attitude towards IP ( which I can't fault them in ), it's questionable whether we will see changes committed back to the tree. But here's hoping!

Well, there's a difference between the Russian government, the Russian corporate sector, and the Russian people. Lax copyright enforcement merely means that it will be difficult to prevent commercial entities in Russia from creative closed-source forks of GPL software (or, conversely, that it will be difficult to induce them to contribute code improvements). But, really, companies that don't want to contribute to open-source software have never been the primary source of code improvements.

The primary source of code improvements is from enthusiasts, and from companies that understand the inherent advantages of building upon the FOSS software and the FOSS community. Both of these groups of people will operate in a lax-copyright regime much the same way they would elsewhere. Enthusiasts contribute to GPL projects not because of copyright law (or any other law) but because of a desire to be part of the process. Russian enthusiasts are no different than those from any other countries.

On the commercial end, I suppose it's less likely that a company leveraging the GPL will appear in a place where copyright law isn't enforced. But, on the other hand, many companies do business internationally, so being based in Russia may have little effect on their code contributions to GPL projects, or their desire to leverage FOSS code in general (and contribute to said code).

At the end of the day, from the "get more code" angle, having more people exposed to open-source software is always a good thing. The more people are involved, the more enthusiast coders you get, and the more community volunteers you get. Not to mention that when a large number of people are using FOSS software, companies will find it in their financial interest to support that software (in terms of hardware, software, and support), and even to support "the community." If Linux were truly widespread in Russia, I see no reason why companies wouldn't actively support FOSS with open-source code.

Re:Good for them

[kryten_nl]

It wouldn't be helpful if a school-OS wasn't available for students to use at home. So I think the source will be distributed. If it comes with a localized version of Pidgin (or other IM software), it might even become a serious Windows rival.

Re:Good for them

[arivanov]

This has nothing to do with suiting needs or not.

This is a reaction towards this long, protracted and phenomenally stupid lawsuit brought by the Russian branch of the BSA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6499843.stm

In brief: a school in the middle of nowhere was sold computers with pirated windows and office which they believed to be genuine. Instead of going after the manufacturer and the reseller the Russian branch of the BSA went after the headmaster of the school and tried to make him personally criminally responsible. he case got phenomenal adverse publicity and reached to the level of the both Putin and Gorbachev wading in and asking that the real culprit is prosecuted. Instead of that the idiots continued and even tried to invoke the MAFIAA favourite tool of WTO scaremongering.

At this point the Russians did the very Russian thing of making a point in principle. Is the OS suited or not no longer matters in the slightest. They will simply no longer do educational business with Microsoft in principle and this is it.

It is a part of Russian character - you may push them for a very long time and they will do nothing. At one point they will go into "Za nami Rodina, ni shagu nazad (Fatherland is behind us, no further steps back)". This is a point you simply do not want to reach when you negotiate with them and it was reached solely through the BSA stupidity.

This also makes a major difference between the Russian case and similar situations in Asia a few years back. There Microsoft managed to defuse the situation through offering seriously discounted Windows and BilliGatus gifts to education and health. In this case this will not work. It is not a matter of money it is a matter of principle from now on.

Re:Good for them

[ShieldW0lf]

Around here, there is only one principle: You're not allowed to have principles. They're provincial, prejudicial and bad for business.

Re:Good for them

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome, I wish more people around the world had these "principles" you speak of.

Re:Good for them

[jc42]

At this point the Russians did the very Russian thing of making a point in principle. Is the OS suited or not no longer matters in the slightest. They will simply no longer do educational business with Microsoft in principle and this is it.

You may have a very good point. However, there's likely something else at work here: the widespread belief in Russia (and a lot of the world) about American software's role in that big explosion of a Siberian pipeline in the summer of 1982.

Add to this the recent stories about Microsoft software that updates itself silently, even when you turn off the auto-update, and MS's explanation of why this is the right thing for them to do. A Russian administrator would have to be really stupid (or really on the take) to approve of anything from Microsoft. Granted, a lot of them may do so, but that's just evidence of how stupid (or on the take) they are. So part of the story might be that at the very top, Russian administrators no longer trust any software made in the USA.

But with the BSA story, it does sorta sound like MS is trying its best to get Russians to buy from someone else.

Re:Good for them

[ksd1337]

You may mod this offtopic, but let it be remembered that In Soviet Russia, the government controls the commerce.

Re:Good for them

[Anonymous Coward]

>it's questionable whether we will see changes committed back to the tree

Actually it's ALTLinux team (developers of ALTLinux distro and Sisyphus repository) which will be making school-oriented distro, and they are very cooperative with the rest of the community.

Re:Good for them

[msormune]

Oh come on. They install Linux because it's free, not because it's open source.

Re:Good for them

[Anonymous Coward]

If they don't follow IP, how do they interoperate with the rest of the internet?

Re:Good for them

[alexeiz]

You may have a very good point. However, there's likely something else at work here: the widespread belief in Russia (and a lot of the world) about American software's role in that big explosion of a Siberian pipeline in the summer of 1982.

Oh... 1982. Wasn't it the time when USSR obtained nearly all of its computer technology through the espionage? Even the article says so. I know for a fact that both CPU designs and operating systems code were stolen. There are some entertaining stories circulating the Russian internet that describe how the stolen OS binary code was localized so it could input and output cyrilic letters. Soviet engineers were especially happy when they obtained some version of BSD with the complete source code. Finally they could build it themselves!

Re:Good for them

[Anonymous Coward]

I know for a fact that both CPU designs and operating systems code were stolen.

That can only mean that either you stole them, or you witnessed the stealing.

Re:Good for them

[borat4president]

This is post-Soviet Russia and its elections time (parliamentary poll this year, presidential - in 2008). This is just not going to happen, believe me, not on this scale. On the other hand, individual admins and, more importantly, school directors, do decide to switch to Linux from pirated Windows since anti-piracy raids are becoming routine.

Re:Good for them

[SPQRDecker]

I saw that James Bond film too, where the bomb detonator in the pipeline was a PDA running WindowsCE. I guess paid product placement backfired, huh.

In Soviet Russia...

[Gordonjcp]

...

Nah, I can't bring myself to do it.

Re:In Soviet Russia...

[rahuja]

OS runs you!

Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[Adeptus_Luminati]

Ok, every other week now for the past couple of years we read on slashdot "Government XYZ in country ABC is converting to Linux","Country XYZ schools in XYZ country mandate Linux be in classrooms", "Company DFG has migrated to Linux desktops", etc

It'd be interesting to see some world maps showing which countries have massive deployments and when you mouse-over, it shows you the # population that is using Linux.

Then we can turn to our bosses and say... "See!"

Anybody up for the challenge?

Adeptus

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I nominate you.

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it interesting (and disturbing) that almost all of the metaphors surrounding both business and warfare involve fucking. Gotta increase that penetration at all costs.

What would a female-dominated society look like? No warfare, just a lot of snide remarks and gossip? That sounds like a good deal to me. "After 5 years of hostilities, isn't it about time we start returning Iraq's phone calls?"

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean to say: "Iraq isn't raising their kids properly, call the lawyer, take the kids, and bill them for child support."

I think it's safe to say that women are completely capable of astonishing cruelty. Of course the above theory isn't necessarily horrible by US standards of living, but most Americans, women included, just don't give a sh*t. I think female generals, would take the position, based on their own inherent ability for waging war, just like female politicians are not hesitant to vote in favor of war. It's a crap-ass-sexist delusion that women are somehow more peaceful than men or are better at raising children than men. Women are often just as volatile, psychotic, predatory and cunning as men. History is full of examples that discredit your opinions. Oh, and btw, women use metaphors for fucking too, not that penetration doesn't have less perverted meanings.

Now for my history, I'm a single dad, my bosses, supervisors, and higher ups (at work), consist of 3 women and 1 man. I have no grudges against these women, nor do I think any of them are unqualified for their positions, but it is disproportionate. I work in a field where I constantly hear about women crying "sexism" (not where I work, thank god). And dating I hear about women that complain constantly about horrible men (bad fathers etc), but often, I miss relationships with women because they go out and FUCK the proverbial epitome of their stereotypical asshole boyfriends they always complain about. Now, I'm a good guy, with a good job, that cares about his kids, honestly looking for someone to settle down with. I've been single for four years largely because I'm not a piece of shit, so please take your condescending feminist bullshit to Myspace where you can post a bulletin and all your 20-something retarded girlfriends can sit around further distancing themselves from the men they really want to be with. Hope I don't come off too confrontational, but you must understand that I have a vested interest in finding women that are nothing fucking like you. Hateful baggage is not something any man wants to carry for you.

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[budgenator]

"Hell thath no fury like a woman scorned", does that give you a clue? PMS and the army of a major-power, scarry stuff, just ask Argentina.

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[TurboStar]

Ok, I started one. Please come help with the data entry.
http://www.listphile.com/Linux

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I could mod you up.

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, as someone who's had his own share of baggage I'd like to apologize for swearing and digging. But, I am really frustrated about this stuff. I mean seriously, clean up your piss poor feelings about men, or at least don't go out looking for a confrontation. And please understand men are just people too. (hope we can talk sanely now.)

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[Anonymous Coward]

PMS and the army of a major-power, scarry stuff, just ask Argentina.

Britain hasn't been a major power in 200 years.

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[shmlco]

Where will the entries be for the projects that were dropped or that failed completely? Not every Linux announcement ends up being a success story.

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[n8k99]

great, you post his on slashdot, now nobody can get to the server because it's all 503'd!!!

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[moxicon]

It works.
http://www.listphile.com/Linux

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[jusdisgi]

so please take your condescending feminist bullshit to Myspace where you can post a bulletin and all your 20-something retarded girlfriends can sit around further distancing themselves from the men they really want to be with. Hope I don't come off too confrontational

No, not at all...

(That little rant is really modded insightful?)

Re:Time for Linux Penetration WorldMap ?

[sharpestmarble]

Trouble with this is that not every Linux project becomes a newsmaker. What of the ones that have quietly & slowly shifted to or from Linux? What of the ones that have shifted to or from Linux, but wanted the change to remain quiet for security reasons? What of the ones who announce such a change, but never makes it past the newsmaking stage(some for security reasons, some for political reasons, or some for some other reason?)

Those will all throw off the map, and when we're dealing with market share/penetration in the range that we are with Linux, even a small change will affect it significantly?

That's a lot of schools

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia is a big country. Once again the growth of Linux, a product made mostly in America, is happening most freely outside of American borders. Back home, it has to contend with "software patents", and the unrestrained monopolism of Microsoft, both of which are much less of a problem overseas where governments refuse to allow big foreign corporations to shit all over their economies (whereas the US govt. is all too happy to let big American corporations do whatever the hell they like as long as they have the "lobbyists" to pay for it).

Re:That's a lot of schools

[absoluteflatness]

Well, Linux was invented in Finland, and the contributors are international. It may be true that the lion's share of contributions, particularly those sponsored by corporations, come from the US, but no country really has a great claim to Linux.

Also, big companies do a pretty good job of shitting all over foreign economies. Piracy notwithstanding, Microsoft still has impressive penetration worldwide, not to mention pharmaceutical companies and others. Of course, they still take time to try and control the US economy whenever possible as well.

I'm very disappointed

[Mr. Lwanga]

No "In Soviet Russia" jokes as FP?

Re:I'm very disappointed

[eneville]

No "In Soviet Russia" jokes as FP? in soviet russia windows installs you

Re:I'm very disappointed

[Tribbin]

In Soviet Russia Linux beats Windows.

Re:I'm very disappointed

[J_Omega]

I take partial responsibility. I mean, I could/should have put in a joke when I submitted the story!

Re:I'm very disappointed

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I was expecting Doctor Strangelove.

"Mr. President, we must not allow a Linux gap!" - seriously, we need to be saying that. Competing with Russia is the one thing this country understands.

Re:I'm very disappointed

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, Linux installs YOU!

Re:I'm very disappointed

[david_thornley]

In Soviet Russia, you control computer.

Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[Penguinisto]

I wonder how long it'll take before Mssr. Gates and his little charity swoops in and donates a universal XP license to all russian schools?

/P

Re:Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[neildiamond]

Yes, because if it were a universal Vista license...

Too many joke possibilities with that one, too little time.

Re:Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[colourmyeyes]

It seems to be a different software company:

because of widely spread illegal practically free Miscrosoft software.

Who knew Miscrosoft had made such inroads in Russia?

Re:Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Sad but true!

Re:Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[Daengbo]

Interesting that you mention that. Do you know the story behind Thailand's flip-flop on FLOSS? They were all ready to convert a couple of years ago, then MS came in to the education department and "offered" to give them blanket licenses to cover all their pirated ones. The license was Windows 98 ... six months before they EOLed it. I'm sure glad Thailand sold its soul for that six months of legality.

Re:Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter whenever Windows is free in school, as long as students are forced to buy their copies of Windows to do the homework. Oh, and teachers need their own copies too. In Russia, the price of Windows Box can be compared to two-month teachers' salary. Not to mention MS Office, antivirus and firewall software etc. And Internet traffic costs for Windows Update.

The famous "Ponosov's" piracy case threatens all Russian teachers. They don't want to be prosecuted, and can't pay for Windows, so they are forced to switch on smth else.

Right now it's the time for Russian FOSS companies to rise. First company (or Linux alliance) to develop school-friendly Linux distro, which can be used and maintained by teachers and students, will win and become "Russian OS", to be installed in every school. That can be a start of Russian Microsoft-like monopoly. And the government will even pay all the develoment cost of a winner distro!

For the upcoming two years, we'll see an unexampled competition between Russian Linux alliances and companies. It doesn't matter, if Linux is ready for desktop, or not. The government will pay for Linux to be ready in two years.

Re:Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[GPL Apostate]

The license was Windows 98 ... six months before they EOLed it. I'm sure glad Thailand sold its soul for that six months of legality.

Windows 98 didn't become illegal after Microsoft EOL'ed it.

Re:Cue "Bill and Melinda Gates..."

[Daengbo]

You're. I guess I stated that poorly. It never became illegal. They had six months of legailty AND support before they were forced to upgrade or run an EOLed OS.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, how does Linux teach you how to hack? Is there a hacking man page that I've been missing? Maybe it is in /usr/share/hack or /usr/share/doc/hack? Never checked those directories my self. Or maybe with the latest wireless drivers the wireless car shoots needles into your brain, upload hacking knowledge directly.

Your theories are fascinating indeed.

Re:Huh?

[theshowmecanuck]

Nice troll.

Re:Huh?

[mahmud]

Wait, how does Linux teach you how to hack? By giving you more control of the OS internals, and by having a steeper usage learning curve.

Once you become proficient in using Linux you are having a better understanding of OS and network internals than your Windows-using peers.

Re:Huh?

[maxwell demon]

Wait, how does Linux teach you how to hack? Is there a hacking man page that I've been missing? Maybe it is in /usr/share/hack or /usr/share/doc/hack? Never checked those directories my self.

/usr/share/doc/howto/en/html/BackspaceDelete/morehack.html
/usr/share/doc/howto/en/html/LVM-HOWTO/hackingcode.html
/usr/share/doc/kernel/kernel-hacking.pdf
/usr/share/doc/packages/fftw/README.hacks
/usr/share/doc/packages/gnokii/gnokii-hackers-howto
/usr/share/doc/packages/gnucash/guile-hackers.txt
/usr/share/doc/packages/libquicktime-devel/hackersguide.txt
/usr/share/doc/packages/ncurses/hackguide.doc
/usr/share/doc/packages/ncurses/hackguide.html

SCNR :-)

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, I have been proven wrong. Russian students now have the ability to hack GNUCash. The US banks shall now TREMBLE IN FEAR! You have taken shaken my identity as an Anonymous Coward and shaken it to the ground. I may have to register or something.

Re:Huh?

[arivanov]

By giving you a system with a number of programming languages day one.

If you have not noticed, may I remind you that windows have degenerated into a consumer device totally unusable for any computer science education without spending a significant amount of money and effort to install extra software. As a result Windows based computer literacy has long degenerated into mouse driven "button pushing".

Linux ships with 4 high level computer languages useable out of the box in the base install - perl, python, C and C++. The rest are easily available as packages. As a result the environment to teach CS is already there. The likelihood that the kids will have at least some hacking skills is much higher as well.

Re:Huh?

[moderatorrater]

Linux ships with 4 high level computer languages useable out of the box in the base install - perl, python, C and C++. Let's not forget PHP. No, seriously, guys, where are you going? Guys, come back!

Re:Huh?

[budgenator]

You actually have to work to not install Ruby, emacs-lisp, Scheme and 3 different shell interperators in most linux distro's. Fortran and java slip in pretty quietly as well.

Re:Huh?

[petermgreen]

I don't know what distro you are using but in my experiance C/C++ compilers are usually not part of the default install (though they usually are on the disk). Python is indeed usually there unless you do a really minimal install and perl is basically irremovable at least in the debian based world.

Re:Huh?

[DaedalusHKX]

Yep, the only things Russian computers will have in "closed source" will be the monitoring and surveillance modules. Those will be copyrighted NSA/KGB 2.0 :)

Re:Huh?

[Virgil Tibbs]

Russian kids already know how to hack;
giving them gnu+linux just means they will share their skills with the rest of the world!

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux ships with 4 high level computer languages useable out of the box in the base install - perl, python, C and C++.

Those are all available also for Windows (and other OSes for that matter) with minimal installation effort.

Re:Huh?

[KnowledgeKeeper]

Wait, how does Linux teach you how to hack? Is there a hacking man page that I've been missing? Maybe it is in /usr/share/hack or /usr/share/doc/hack?

And you call yourself a geek? Ever heard of nethack?

q:D

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Linux ships with 4 high level computer languages useable out of the box in the base install - perl, python, C and C++

perl and C++ are useable language? That's news to me.
And C isn't very high level.

I grant you Python (and Ruby) though.

Re:Huh?

[moderatorrater]

What distro are you using that doesn't come with GCC?

Re:Huh?

[ir]

centos

Re:Huh?

[petermgreen]

neither debian or ubuntu has it in the default install. I'm pretty sure the fedora installer had a seperate option for development stuff too (which I selected) though i'm not an expert on the redhat side.

Re:Huh?

[dbIII]

I think part of the cracking culture of some time ago was to break into systems more interesting than your own MSDOS box and look around. With linux you already have a more interesting box with more interesting bits that can be added than you can keep up with.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Where is the C compiler stored on the Windows disk?

Re:Huh?

[GPL Apostate]

Linux ships with 4 high level computer languages usable out of the box in the base install - perl, python, C and C++.

Not to be a curmudgeon or anything, but which 'Linux' do you mean? There isn't some single version that 'ships' the way you speak of it.

Re:Huh?

[kaizokuace]

psshaw! Tux annoyingly pops up a-la Clippy and asks what you would like to hack depending on what you are doing.
Tux: Are you trying to DDOS this page?
Me: No Tux go away!
Tux: Here are your options -
1. DDOS attack
2. ???!!?
3. Profit!

Re:Huh?

[GPL Apostate]

That's right. The FSF has a lot of legal clout in Russia to enforce the rules of the GPL. I had forgotten.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, how does Linux teach you how to hack?

By giving you more control of the OS internals, and by having a steeper usage learning curve.

So you're saying that Linux is easier to learn than Windows?

Re:Huh?

[aliquis]

Nowadays when all computers are connected to the net all you need to run is nethack!

Re:Huh?

[Raenex]

If you have not noticed, may I remind you that windows have degenerated into a consumer device totally unusable for any computer science education without spending a significant amount of money and effort to install extra software. That's bullshit. There are plenty of free developer tools for Windows that are easy to install and download, including for all the languages you named. Sometimes hacking is even easier on Windows that on Linux. That was certainly the case when I was messing around with Nintendo DS homebrew.

Re:Huh?

[Amani576]

I know Red Hat Enterprise 4 (RHEL 4) came with out of the box FORTRAN support...
I thought that was the most bad-ass thing, just from a legacy software standpoint. Although many will argue (and I could probably be easily convinced otherwise) that FORTRAN is not under the "Legacy" title.
Either way... I imagine most versions of Linux could easily be given the ability to do FORTRAN, so, I guess that's five languages (Along with all the other ones that people have listed)
GR

Re:Huh?

[ozmanjusri]

Where is the C compiler stored on the Windows disk?

C:/Windows/System32/Debug.exe *

* Some assembly required.

Re:Huh?

[rhinokitty]

I actually went into those directories and checked! *smacks forehead*

Re:Huh?

[Lorkki]

FORTRAN is part of the GNU compiler collection, so yes, it tends to be easily available wherever GCC is. The same collection also includes Java, Ada and Objective-C in addition to C and C++. If you want a complete list of languages supported on Linux, though, you should prepare for a long day.

Re:Huh?

[lahvak]

/usr/games/nethack, obviously. It's a game that teaches you how to hack the net!

Re:Huh?

[Fri13]

"By giving you more control of the OS internals, and by having a steeper usage learning curve."

Where i can read that study that GNU/Linux has steeper learning curve?

As far i know from experience, with Gnome or with KDE, it is much easier for older and younger people to learn using computer than with windows XP or windows Vista.
They dont need know what C:\ stands for or D:\ and what is virus and why on everything can have virus in it etc.
And when it comes about deeper understanding about how OS works, GNU/Linux just gives them much easier start because no one is blockin their thirsty for wisdom...

They just can use system and enjoy and forget that they are running different OS...
And this is big help for schools when they teach first time users to use internet and software to complete tasks.

Let the freedom come back to users.....

ps. There will be big aftershock for Microsoft after 10 years when corporations starts using GNU/Linux because that's what people has learned on schools.

Re:Huh?

[Antique Geekmeister]

You forgot Fortran, D, ADA, and others. Mind you, many of them are actually translated to somewhat awkward C first by the compiler, but still they're built in.

Re:Huh?

[mahmud]

So you're saying that Linux is easier to learn than Windows? No.

As taught by my economics prof., I map "effort required" to Y axis, and "progress made" to X axis.

Re:Huh?

[donaldm]

Fedora, Scientific Linux, OpenSuSE and CentOS to name a few. Just pick "install everything" and you really get everything from a very good software development suite to Games, Office, Multimedia and Internet tools all from one DVD or CD set. Then if you have an Internet connection you can use tools like yum and yast to install a huge amount of software (thousands of programs). In addition the software installers will sort out dependencies for you as well as allowing you to maintain your software as well.

If you use Redhat derived Linux in a school or business environment you can use something like "Control Tower" or "Satellite Server" (these are commercial packages) to customise, maintain and even recover all your Linux machines. I am quite sure you can do the same for Debian based distributions as well.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, hack is replaced by newer nethack.
Try /usr/bin/nethack

Re:Huh?

[GPL Apostate]

You get a conglomerate that includes an uneven collection of software tools. Some of which are very, very good. But I wouldn't call it a 'software development suite.'

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn Murphy's Law! Right after using my last mod point!

Re:Huh?

[sick_soul]

At least Ubuntu.

Btw, if any of you is contributing to any distribution,
please stop distributing systems without a compiler.
It should be available by default in all distributions.

Not having a compiler does not make the system more user-friendly.

It only makes it more difficult for users to start experimenting
with their system.

Re:Huh?

[jgeeky]

you have unlock the repository for it, and then run sudo apt-get hack-howto.

Re:Huh?

[jusdisgi]

Linux ships with 4 high level computer languages useable out of the box in the base install - perl, python, C and C++.

They've put compilers/interpreters in the kernel now? Jesus, Linux is getting bloated.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux and open source - computing by the world, for the world.

Not called "Russian OS"

[jpetts]

The software will be called ALTLinux. It is the typical lack of the use of articles in Russian which seems to be confusing the submitter. If written by an English author, the article would have started "A Russian OS...".

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[Marcion]

Yup I just had a fish through, and ALT Linux seems to be a Redhat recompile in the style of CentOS with some extra Russian documentation etc.

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[tropicdog]

Incorrect, you say:

"The software will be called ALTLinux. It is the typical lack of the use of articles in Russian which seems to be confusing the submitter. If written by an English author, the article would have started "A Russian OS..."

TFA actually says:

"The Ministry of Communication Press Service explains the Ministry plans to install Russian OS and alternative program package in every Russian school. The dates to carry out tenders for OS development have not been announced yet, but the tenders are to be held in the near future, the Ministry of Communication informs."

And then introduces this hopeful contender for the development of the software applications to be geared towards classroom use.

"Alexey Smirnov, Director General of the Company ALTLinux which has already announced its desire to put in a bid for the tender to develop alternative software package considers the given terms reasonable."

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[Sheltem The Guardian]

Nope. What you're talking about is ASP Linux. Alt linux is a complete-cycle distribution remotely based on mandrake and debian.

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[DaleGlass]

No, what he means is that TFA has an incorrect translation from Russian, which was then picked up by Slashdot.

In Russian there's no "the" article, so "the ministry plans to install the russian OS" would be written more like "ministry plans to install russian OS". That seems to have confused the translator, who understood "russian OS" as a product name instead of "russian-made OS".

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[gr8dude]

The software will be called ALTLinux

ALTLinux is a distro that exists for many years, they just decided they'll use THAT one because there is a Russian company behind it.

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[J_Omega]

In my defense, being the submitter, the referenced source was written in English. Therefore, I'd like to place the blame on the author and/or translator. Furthermore, it seems to be the case that ALTLinux is only a contender for a distro that would be modified into the new education version - whatever that ends up being called.

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[Breakfast Pants]

That's GNU/Russian OS, damnit! It's what those commies at the FSF have always dreamed of.

Re:Not called "Russian OS"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's GNU/Russian OS, damnit! It's what those commies at the FSF have always dreamed of.

Not so funny as the American Flag stuck in every visible spot in the USA. As for the commies, it's to Germany that invented them but failed to implement. And to the UK that helps to implement it in Russia. The Russian implementation was buggy, though :-)

Open Source Really Is Like Communism Now

[johnrpenner]

this will just play into the hands of our detractors who can now claim that 'Open Source Really Is Like Communism' (never mind that it was invented by an American... ;-)

at least i'm trying to be funny...

j

--
open source -- in the long tradition of libraries, liberty, and threefolding...

Re:Open Source Really Is Like Communism Now

[dapyx]

never mind that it was invented by an American

so what? Communism was developed by two Germans (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engles), who wrote the The Communist Manifesto in 1848.

Re:Open Source Really Is Like Communism Now

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary, now we'll have a great comeback line.

"Open-source is just like communism."
"No, communism failed in Russia. Open-source is succeeding. No matter what open-source is, it's not *quite* as bad as communism."

Re:Open Source Really Is Like Communism Now

[jez9999]

Open-source is succeeding.

So is Islamist terrorism. :-)

Re:Open Source Really Is Like Communism Now

[TeknoHog]

at least i'm trying to be funny...

two pictures > 2048 words:

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/nikki/linux-communism.jpg

http://www.nixp.ru/pub/walls/linux-china-communism.jpg

Re:Open Source Really Is Like Communism Now

[Sibelius]

Actually, Linux Torvalds is Finnish.

Which is great, because the Russians have not been very kind to the Finns in the last 100 years or so, perhaps going back even further (you can start by looking up Karelia). So I would bet that even in that no-nonsense culture of theirs, a couple of Finns somewhere in the world are having a private chuckle on how the tables have turned.

What's wrong with the name?

[theshowmecanuck]

The article makes it appear that it will be going by the (unimaginative) name 'Russian OS.'

Don't you know Linux was invented in Russia? :p

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[ScrewMaster]

Or as Ensign Chekov would no doubt have said, "Linux? Of course, Keptin. It was a Russian inwention."

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[kryten_nl]

Finland declared it's independence from (Soviet) Russia in 1917. I know some people might be a little bit behind the times, but you're pushing the envelope.

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[budgenator]

was that the old Linux or the Gnu Linux?

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[meringuoid]

Don't you know Linux was invented in Russia? :p

Ever mistakenly called an Irishman British - or worse, English? Remember the reaction you got?

Right. Now, you know Finland? You know what they think about Russia? Yep.

Oh, by the way, the Finns make about the best hunting rifles in the world. Pretty much everybody has one. And silencers are perfectly legal and uncontroversial.

Now, go away and sit in the corner and think about what you did, and don't come back until you're ready to say sorry.

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[theshowmecanuck]

... and I suppose you never heard jokes about how Soviet Russians used to make claims to inventing all sorts of things for propaganda purposes?....

I hate having to explain the joke to people who like to look for ways to be offended. Glad to see someone 'got it' (the first comment to my post). Now, go away and sit in the corner and think about what you did, and don't come back until you're ready to say sorry. :)

Finland is a nice country and Nokias are my favourite cell phone. :)

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[theshowmecanuck]

sad how you have to hit most slashdotters over the head in order for them to get a joke isn't it. oh yeah... I am a troll [/sarcasm] I guess subtle humour is beyond most here... present company excepted. :)

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[ScrewMaster]

{sigh} You're right about that. To continue the Star Trek analogy, some people are like Commander Data ... literal-minded to a fault.

Note they are often given mod points.

Re:What's wrong with the name?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Finland declared it's independence from Bolshevist Russia in 1917, Soviet Union wasn't established until 1922.

"Bolshevist Russia or Bolshevik Russia is a common term for the Bolshevik side in the Russian Civil War, or more specifically the Russian government between the October Revolution (November 7, 1917) and the establishment of the Soviet Union (December 30, 1922)."

As linux.org.ru readers would say...

[Cyberax]

Vendekapetz blisitsa!

(The end of Windows is getting closer!)

Re:As linux.org.ru readers would say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Inch Allah!!..

Re:As linux.org.ru readers would say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Eto tochno!!!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

One solution to copyright infringment suits

[Protonk]

Price of a given software good too high for teachers to use it? Russian teachers have already tried pirating it, because the cost of an XP OS license is ridiculous in comparison to budgets for schools there, especially outside of moscow. Microsoft comes down like a ton of bricks on the teacher, so it becomes clear that this isn't a useful route for other teachers. The switch is made to an Os without license fees and distribution limitations.

Microsoft could have solved this by lowering the price of XP for educators in russia enough so that it could have been meaningfully distributed around the country. But they didn't. Oh well.

Re:One solution to copyright infringment suits

[Kjella]

At the same time, I feel the government has been pushing the teacher ahead of them for brownie points. It's not like Putin and Russia are really that broke, they're creating the conditions these teachers have to live under. Like, we want XP on our computers but won't pay you for licenses, hint hint nudge nudge. It's a lot like employees of a corporation or officers in an army, even if you're not able to put the blame where it belongs you want to make damn sure that the next teacher will say "Sorry boss, won't do that because it's illegal, too risky and I don't want to be the fall guy." It's not exactly an uncommon practise in a shady environment to encourage one sort of behavior then turn around and disavow all knowledge when shit hits the fan, "isolated incident", "acted without authorization", "against company policy" and so on.

Re:One solution to copyright infringment suits

[Anonymous Coward]

Price of a given software good too high for teachers to use it?

Woaw, I nearly had a heart attack... At first I read "Price of a given good software...". Remember that we're talking about Windows ;)

Re:One solution to copyright infringment suits

[jez9999]

Microsoft could have solved this by lowering the price of XP for educators in russia enough so that it could have been meaningfully distributed around the country. But they didn't. Oh well.

Maybe they're making Vista available cheaper in the hopes that they'll upgrade later.

Partially due to cost, too

[ACS Solver]

The vast majority of Russian schools has pirated software installed. They can't afford to buy licenses for MS products, and frankly the government doesn't view it as a high priority either, Russia still doesn't respect copyrights too much. At the same time, they've been actually cracking down on pirates lately (due to international pressure, in part). So I expect that going Linux in schools is by far the easiest way of going legal in Russia - licenses are just really not an option.

Re:Partially due to cost, too

[Anonymous Coward]

This is how MS makes $60bn per year. Because users are used to it through piracy.

And this shows why linux was such an important project all along. It may not be ready for the desktop in US, but if somebody wants to build an alternative Desktop, the free OS is here.

Combined with the Dragon3 CPU from the Chinese and wireless cards from Taiwan. Keep on rocking in the free world!

but

[Anonymous Coward]

will it include Stalin?

in soviet russia

[Anonymous Coward]

your posts are not a troll!

Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducation

[pluke]

I've been trying to get the techies at my school to consider linux and open source for a while now. They are not interested, distrust things that are free and find it easier just to follow the commercial software peddled to them or recommended by the UK government's BECTA organisation. Maybe it takes a governmental decision to bring about change for the ill-informed schools. Well done Russia. In the mean time I'm trying to change their mind by giving the students copies of the OpenEducationCD and getting them to tell their teachers how they are finding it. www.theopencd.org/education

Non-commercial?

[skeeto]

reduce dependence on foreign commercial software

Since when is GNU/Linux not commercial software?

Re:Non-commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you're an idiot. I mean geez, reading slashdot I've come across some real morons, but you completely take the cake.

Just out of, um, scientific curiosity, could you try an experiment for me? I want to you walk and breath at the same time. I know it sounds difficult, but perhaps you can manage. As you put a foot forward, inhale. When you put the next foot forward, exhale. It's important to remember these steps and do them in proper order.

Anyway: OSS != commercial software.

Re:Non-commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're the idiot. What, you think big companies like Red Hat and Trolltech pay their rent with magic pixie dust? No, they make bucketloads of money off of OSS.

You fucking dumb shit. I believe this cake is yours.

Re:Non-commercial?

[skeeto]

OSS != commercial software Since you used "open source", I will reply to that. This comes right from the Open Source Initiative's website,

6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor

The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.

Rationale: The major intention of this clause is to prohibit license traps that prevent open source from being used commercially. We want commercial users to join our community, not feel excluded from it.

Free software can be commericial software too. From the GNU website's Selling Free Software,

Actually we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.

The word "free" has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of "free software", we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of "free speech", not "free beer".) Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes.

Software can be both free software (or "open source" as you used) and commericial software at the same time. There is nothing exclusive about either. For examples, see Red Hat, Sun, IBM, and many more.

Looks like I just fed a troll.

Re:Non-commercial?

[donaldm]

Excellent answer. I was going to reply and I noticed you already did. Try not to think of "feeding the troll" but "educating the unenlightened". ;-)

Is Linux really important?

[tsa]

I think the importance of the penetration of Linux is overestimated. What is more important than the penetration of Linux, is the penetration of Open Source programs. We now have a few very succesfull Open Source programs that are useful for a lot of people: Firefox, Thunderbird, Gimp, OpenOffice, and, to a lesser extent, Inkscape. They run on the three main operating systems: OSX, Linux, And Windows. The use of programs like the OpenOffice et al. ensures the use of open standards for documents, pictures, etc, which in the long run is much more important than which operating system is prevalent.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[McDutchie]

Yes, Linux is really important. Open standards are meaningless if a single dominant closed operating system can control and restrict every program that runs on the computer, and this is the direction in which Windows is going. If left unchallenged, it may not even be able to run open soure software, some years from now. Linux is essential in being that challenge.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[Vexorian]

hell yeah?

Dunno about you but if you use open source software and open documents all is right, but there's no reason to keep paying for a "windows tax" in that case, a lot of people prefer open source but get locked into these proprietary operating systems for no more reason than a single software/hardware company that likes to pick platforms for their customers. We can only beat this by promoting an open source operating system, in this regards Linux, and a possible GPLed OpenSolaris are required, there is not much worth in open source if you still need to pay some tax to use them (windows' licensing...)

Re:Is Linux really important?

[greenguy]

In the big picture, you are right. I run only Linux at home, and am pushing for it at work. But, most people in the general population think that Computer=Windows. The key, I believe, is not convincing them of the benefits of an open OS. That confuses them, which means it scares them. Rather, the way to go is open document formats. That "clicks" with people -- "Oh, yeah, this new Word format doesn't work on my home computer!" Then, when they feel at home with that, you can say to them, "So, how's Vista working out on your home computer? Not so good? Well, Linux works a lot like the open document formats..."

Re:Is Linux really important?

[jc42]

But, most people in the general population think that Computer=Windows.

You're making a common mistake here. To illustrate what it is, I'll just mention that on numerous occasions, I've got a lot of "Windows" diehards very confused when I show them my linux box, and point out that the screen is covered with "windows". Then I mention that there's nothing from Microsoft on the machine at all - but it obviously "runs windows", because you can see them on the screen. If I'm not near a non-MS computer, it sometimes works to say that my computer has "windows", but they're not "Microsoft windows". (And if I have a chance, I'll mention that my windows run better than Microsoft's, and invite they to a demo if they'd like.)

Just using the "Windows" trademark alone is a bad idea, because you're in effect saying that other OSs can't do windows. Most people "know" that you have to have windows on your screen to use a computer, so obviously if you don't have windows, your computer isn't usable.

It's sorta like RMS's desire that everyone add "GNU" to "linux". You should always say "Microsoft" before "Windows" when you're talking about that particular brand of windows. Then maybe you'll stand a chance of getting somewhere.

The first problem is convincing people that windows are found on other machines than those that come from Microsoft. And you can't do that by telling people that they shouldn't run Windows, because they won't hear the capital letter in your voice.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[Kjella]

Oh, give me a break that's FUD and you know it. No, your open source programs may not be able to touch TC applications or TC data, but there's nothing inherently magic about open source code. To prevent open source you'd have to prevent any unsigned code, which would bring pretty much all of Windows development, proprietary, in education or otherwise to a screeching halt. That $600 million anti-trust fine would be a $6 billion fine if Microsoft ever tried to pull something like that. What is likely is that it'll be another Windows/IE/WMP/TC required lock-in, and maybe some very secure closed networks will refuse to let non-attestated machines on, which could be a good thing since MAC spoofing is trivial and bringing a hostile host on a network with stolen credentials is too easy. To think that your average residential ISP will give a shit about your Linux machine is tinfoil loony-bin scaremongering, and won't get you taken seriously anywhere.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[McDutchie]

To prevent open source you'd have to prevent any unsigned code,

Precisely, and if you think Microsoft wouldn't like to do exactly that if it could get away with it, you're hopelessly naïve. In fact, for drivers, it has already gotten away with it. Closed-source driver developers meekly pay the Microsoft tax to get their code signed, and open-source drivers are effectively locked out.

But hey, never mind those inconvenient little facts -- just believe Microsoft will look out for your interests, it's so much easier. Sweet dreams.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[aliquis]

What bullshit, of course Microsoft will let their OS run free software.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[aliquis]

Yeah because with OpenSolaris as is or BSD you have to pay so much tax for your open source products">!#%T&

But now I want the non-free software aswell so I bought a mac, even if it sucked. Atleast my printer and scanner will work aswell..

Re:Is Linux really important?

[ozmanjusri]

Closed-source driver developers meekly pay the Microsoft tax to get their code signed, and open-source drivers are effectively locked out.

Precisely right. Interestingly enough, the community is fighting back. http://www.linchpinlabs.com/resources/atsiv/usage-design.htm

Microsoft cannot allow open drivers because that would allow computer users to circumvent Vista DRM. It doesn't look like they'll win this one.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[Antique Geekmeister]

Actually, Vista's strong commitment to the old "Palladium" project, inappropriately renamed "Trusted Computing", is precisely this kind of driver and hardware and software level DRM. It's extremely troubling work, designed to prevent access to hardware or software or files without keys signed from a central key authority. And those central keys live in Microsoft's hands, and in turn are easily obtained by federal authorities without even bothering with warrants that monitored targets can find out about.

Its primary aim is for DRM, not security: that's extremely clear from its design. It's not broadly in use yet, but it's directly built into current Intal and AMD CPU's as well.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[alukin]

Not at all! How can't you understand that education area is very important especialy at first user's steps. Once you get adapted to some enviroment you never want to learn another one. If I were Bill Gates, I'd give windows and all other M$ crap to schools for free. It's like dope so ...

Re:Is Linux really important?

[tsa]

If it comes to that people can just switch OS and keep using their favourite office suite, photo editor and what have you. That's the beauty of open standards: they actually help prevent the nightmare you describe from happening in reality.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[McDutchie]

But for people to switch OS, there actually has to be an OS for people to switch to. That is why Linux really is important.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for Comcast and I can say they don't give a shit about your Linux OS. It would cost too much to train agents on how to troubleshoot Linux considering the differing distros/WMs/Apps that all do the same thing in slightly different ways. The Linux market share sure isn't high enough to justify that level of training either. Do what you want, they'll just make sure your modem works, they have no incentive to police things except for occasionally blocking port 25 w/ PC users who end up becoming spam bots. If they only allowed windows and osx boxen then they'd have to cut off all those consoles that arent from the big three and funky appliances.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[DamnStupidElf]

Oh, give me a break that's FUD and you know it. No, your open source programs may not be able to touch TC applications or TC data, but there's nothing inherently magic about open source code. To prevent open source you'd have to prevent any unsigned code, which would bring pretty much all of Windows development, proprietary, in education or otherwise to a screeching halt. That $600 million anti-trust fine would be a $6 billion fine if Microsoft ever tried to pull something like that. What is likely is that it'll be another Windows/IE/WMP/TC required lock-in, and maybe some very secure closed networks will refuse to let non-attestated machines on, which could be a good thing since MAC spoofing is trivial and bringing a hostile host on a network with stolen credentials is too easy. To think that your average residential ISP will give a shit about your Linux machine is tinfoil loony-bin scaremongering, and won't get you taken seriously anywhere.

Unless they make hacker tools illegal. Seriously, you think the U.S. government wouldn't love to ban unsigned software to protect the children from terrorists, porn, and pedophiles? The SSSCA aka Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act was essentially the legislation that could have done it. Thank god Hollings is gone at least.

Re:Is Linux really important?

[tsa]

That is right, yes. There's also OSX of course but I can imagine people don't always want to buy new hardware when changing OS-es.

All they need now is

[Anonymous Coward]

A chicken in every pot!

This anti-piracy move shoud make Microsft happy.

[Technician]

It should make Microsoft very happy as Russia is a hotbed of pirated copies of Microsoft products. It is nice to see Russia taking a proactive step to combat international piracy.

(*($%^%#%^-crash%%&(

What is that sound from Redmond?

Re:A Matter of Geography

[Technician]

Don't penguins live at the south pole?

Not all of them. ;-)

http://www.oregonzoo.org/Exhibits/penguin.htm Here is just one example of above the equator penguins. There are lots more.

Even those living in Antarctica live close to the water, not near the pole.

Old news?

[atamyrat]

I've submitted news to /. about Russian schools consider switching to ALTLinux a long before, i think it was after Microsoft sued the high-school teacher for pirated copy of windows xp.

Re:Old news?

[arivanov]

AFAIK the decision was taken about a month ago and announced on Russian TV. I got a couple of letters on the subject from Russian friends when it happened.
You are right - it is related to the teacher. Frankly, Microsoft should have given it a second thought and stopped simulating that it has nothing to do with it especially after both Putin, Gorbi and Zhirik got involved with it. Before that it was a piracy case. Now, after MSFT ignored all political parties from the left to the right end, the current and the past presidents it has become a political issue. It is not a matter of money any more.

Re:Old news?

[Whiteox]

Do you think that this will percolate through the old eastern block countries? Or the old Soviet (Russian Speaking) nations?
Are you aware of how intrinsic the Russian educational system is across their borders? Would Georgia, Khazakstan etc and other Russian controlled states also be affected?

Thanks

Re:Old news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummmm MS DIDN'T have any involvement in the teacher that got done for piracy. MS was asked to drop the case by putin all they could say was they had no involvement, they did not instigate the investigation or the prosecution, it was all done BY THE GOVERNMENT. I find it amusing how so many can still get facts so wrong. MS are evil and all, but at least hate them for somethign they did.

The biggest driver of Linux on the desktop ...

[Kristoph]

IMO the biggest driver of Linux on the Desktop is Microsoft and this article is but one example.

Their combination of their recalcitrant anti-competitive behavior and anti-piracy lobbying prompts governments to seek alternatives, which drives wider Linux awareness as Linux is adopted by educational institutions. Their anti-piracy technologies essentially prevent many multi-computer households from upgrading making Linux as an alternative (for tech savy users) that much appealing. Their zeal to dominate every market forces other industry players towards supporting alternatives as a defensive measure, which means more applications and codecs.

Linux is otherwise technically competitive with Microsoft but certainly it is facing a significant market disadvantage due to Microsoft's entrenched position, and so Microsoft's actions are likely to have the most impact in combating that position.

]{

Linux/OSS/Freeware for Education -- A Rant

[Anonymous Coward]

As you'll surely assume from this rant I do not have children, but I do have a nephew. I also use Linux, F/OSS as well as Windows and commercial software. Let me say, that I realize that Linux and OSS doesn't necessarily mean free or cheap but usually it does cost less. I'm all for using Linux and OSS in education. I do not feel it is necessary to spend (waste) taxpayer money just because some people will rant that the children deserve the best in name-brand, expensive software for kids. If so, buy them whatever you wish for their home use, but every student does not need to be issued a laptop with Windows/Office installed on it with my money. Then they send out kids with coupon books, candy, etc. to raise more money. Linux/OSS/Freeware can teach kids to use a computer and allow them to get their homework done without spending as much taxpayer money. I'm all for it.

Stallman got to russia through CUBA !! Viva la rev

[Anonymous Coward]

Stallman got to russia through CUBA !! Viva la rev !! We love Castro !! Both of them !!

"Russian OS" name

[Anonymous Coward]

The name is no more unimaginative than Microsoft or Office or FrontPage or may the boring list go on....

Now the cat is out of the bag

[harris s newman]

Now you told Microsoft things will change rapidly. Soon to be announced, discounted copies of XP to every school in Russia.

Re:Now the cat is out of the bag

[Dunbal]

You can't discount it much more than "free". But everyone in Russia as been getting pirated XP for "free" anyway. So price is obviously not the reasoning behind this.

Re:Now the cat is out of the bag

[budgenator]

At the risk of sounding trollish, but people have been getting Windows at no additional cost for a long time, and when you get something for "free" it's hard to get them to start paying for it. Now there isn't much purpose in buying a new computer, for all practical purposes a 5 y. o. computer is just as good as a new one, not like the old days when a 5 yo. computer was slow, so microsoft is in trouble now, they just aren't selling product to the OEM computer vendors and so aren't sell windows.

No way; Microsoft will stop this.

[shutdown -p now]

Not going to happen. Russian goverment is strongly corrupted on all levels. On the other hand, Microsoft has deep pockets, and little hesitation reaching into them in such cases.

What's going to happen, most likely, is that they let the pilot programme run, and then buy sufficient amount of FUD-spreading from those involved to declare it unsuccessful, with a nice side-effect of discrediting the only competitor (Apple is not competitive in Russia - hardware pricing is way too high, and, perhaps, more importantly for education sector, their software is not localized for Russia).

Re:No way; Microsoft will stop this.

[temcat]

Yes, what you describe is a very likely outcome. There already are some regional precedents to that effect (I believe exactly the same happened with ALTLinux in Volgograd).

Also, this may be simply a PR move before the upcoming parliamentary and presidential elections which will be quickly forgotten after the elections are over.

Re:No way; Microsoft will stop this.

[Anonymous Coward]

right.. so like the little cracker/spambot ring mafiosi wouldn't counter bribe the officials
to let the government / schools operate their server farms and subsidize their custom linux
development .. ?

besides: with the polonium and the closing of foreign subsidized offshore pipelines (shell?)
for a 'strong russia' , I woudn't be so sure ..

could still go either way..

Russia OWNS Linux (mode me flamebait if you want)

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Linus is a Finn and Finland used to be part of the Russian Empire. Russia still owns parts of Finland acquired in the Winter War almost 70 years ago. For a Russian mind this is enough to claim owneship of Finland and everthing what goes with it including Linus and his operating system. Whatever belonged to Mother Russia in the past should belong to Russia FOREVER! Baltic and Skandinavian countrie, beware!

those poor sods - too poor for a real computer

[Fluk3]

linux desktop and communism are a good mach though - citizens are miserable, but pretend to be proud - and it is doomed to fail miserably

Using one Now!

[penguin7009]

I have been using Linux XP for three years now! The newest version LXP2007 is due out in Sept 2007. It IS a VERY good Distro, the newest version based on Fedora Core6. It is a FOR PAY Distro and has been highly customized. The latest version is beautifully done and works excellent. Follow the link to version 2006: http://www.linux-xp.com/ penguin7009

Re:Using one Now!

[penguin7009]

A link to screenshots of LXP2007: http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e132/penguin7009/

Re:Using one Now!

[janrinok]

As you well know, the page you link to says "Buy Linux-XP now!". Why should anyone buy linux? Support maybe, but not the OS. There are numerous free distros around, I cannot imagine that many will decide that they would rather pay for it. The only attraction that is offered is that you can "load Windows programs", particularly IE. Isn't that rather a case of bringing all that is bad in Windows to Linux? I'm not saying that there are no attractions, but I remain unconvinced that this is a major player of the future. However, I am ready to be persuaded otherwise. The ball, as they say, is in your court....

Re:Using one Now!

[penguin7009]

Your points are valid. I guess I'm not a true linux geek. Though I understand the philosophy of the true linux geek, I also understand that there are some software titles that are worth paying for. Some that come to mind are, Crossover office and Parallels, both which I own licenses for. Paying for the operating system also just seems to be the next step?

I guess I fall into the gap somewhere between the all out linux for free (where its my responsibility to make it all work) and the (purchase for having someone else do a lot of the work) person?

I also purchased Win4lin, nero linux, vuescan and several other software titles which Do Not stop me from installing on my computer as many times as I want whenever I decide to format and have a "do over". All these software titles are reasonable priced and are free of DRM for the most part.

If windows didn't cost so much and try to imprison me and try to run my digital life and wasn't so bug and virus prone, I probably would still be using it. The main reason that I usually get from true Linux Geeks because of my attitude of "for pay" software on Linux is usually that by buying software for linux you are endangering linux and will make every one have to pay!

I don't believe that. I believe Linux will always have free software and distros and that "for pay" linux software will co-exist along side of it for those like me who are not as savvy or to lazy to do it myself?

penguin7009

Re:Using one Now!

[janrinok]

I'm flattered to be considered a linux geek, but I don't think that I deserve the accolade.

If people want to run Windows software then there are perfectly good operating systems for that task made by a company in Redmond. However, they come with a downside, or several 'downsides' if you like, such as cost, vulnerability, vendor lock-in etc. But don't knock them too much. They seem to have done very well out of their product. (Please don't anyone respond with the various reasons why this is so, we know them and they are not relevant here.)

However, the web page for Linux-XP proudly points out that by changing to it such things as viruses, spam etc become a thing of the past. OK, how does Linux-XP solve the spam problem? Yep, it doesn't. The virus issue is a good point but much of today's problems lie not with viruses but with people who install software that they shouldn't. If Linux-XP is able to load and run any Windows software - another claim from the page that you pointed to - then it can also load the software that you don't want it to do. Now I cannot say what effect this might have. Perhaps the file structure is entirely different which will defeat the malware but, if it is, how do Windows programs just run? Perhaps it uses WINE, which would be great improvement security wise but, despite it being very good, it is far from perfect. I remain unconvinced.

Among the benefits of not using Windows are that you avoid the costs, vulnerabilities and vendor lock-in. So buying a different piece of software that allows you to keep on buying and using Microsoft Office, might have some if not all of the vulnerabilities, and certainly is perpetuating vendor lock-in doesn't seem that much of an advantage to me.

Many people see the issue as black or white. It isn't. But whereas many already 'understand' Windows (often not so well as they believe that they do, but that is a different discussion) there is something new to learn when switching to another OS, be it Linux, a variant of BSD, or whatever. This does frighten them. Not because they couldn't master it but often because they think that they will 'lose' their current expertise in Windows. In other words, I think that they believe that their current knowledge will become worthless and they might lose the credibility that they currently have amongst their peers. Fine, that is their choice, but they are wrong. Most people rode bicycles when they were young but when they grew older they changed to cars or motor bikes. I wonder why they fear changing their OS? As you try each different OS you learn different lessons, some of which will hold you in great stead no matter which OS you eventually choose to be your everyday system.

The beauty of all of this is that it is available for very little cost. Most distros can be downloaded for free. I subscribe to a magazine which gives me at least 1, and sometimes as many as 4, new distros to try each month (Linuxformat). So Linux-XP doesn't seem like much of a bargain to me nor can I see the benefits using it to enable me to keep Windows software. There are thousands of alternatives and some of them leave Microsoft's offerings in the dust. I'm not trying to start a war here, this is simply my view. Others may disagree.

Re:Using one Now!

[penguin7009]

Thanks for the response. Get your point. I'm not really trying to convince you of anything in particular. I have so much ms software that I still use from years of purchasing ms stuff that it was a shame not to use it. Using linux with Codeweavers software really allowed me to instantiously move from Windows to Linux and not have to make a 90* learning curve. The ease of use of LXP made the transition even easier. I paid, I think, $19.95 for LXP license and $39.95 for Crossover Office on which I run about 10 windows titles of which I already purchased and which are still up to date enough to continue using. In three years of using this arrangement I have never had a virus or malware on either my linux or windows software. Not saying that this is what anyone else should do, but what has worked for me. I have also learned a great deal about linux because as you already know linux is not perfect either. I have had to learn how to use linux also. I support "for pay" linux software titles to advance linux. I know that this is controversial within the linux community but as I see it, until all codecs, movie formats and other forms of digital media are all free, how will linux be usuable right now on the desktop? In any event one thing I have learned to love about linux and the linux community is the freedom of choice. This has been mine! penguin

Re:Russia OWNS Linux (mode me flamebait if you wan

[Tribbin]

I own linux too.

Re:This anti-piracy move shoud make Microsft happy

[Anonymous Coward]

Most likely "Oh crap, now they wount even think about buying any of our products."

Linus is a Swedish Finn not a Finn Finn

[Anonymous Coward]

Upper classes in Finland used to be Swedish while the losers and nobodies vere Finns. Linus belongs to the Swedish speaking upper classes. Linus is a Swede from Finland, not a Finn. Saying that Linus is a Finn is the same sayng that a Hungarian person from Romania is a Romanian or a Ukrainian person from Poland is a Pole.

Re:Linus is a Swedish Finn not a Finn Finn

[Marcion]

His first name happens to be Swedish derived, but as far as I can tell he is a Finnish-speaking Finn, the fact that he went to Helsinki Uni rather than to Abo or some other Swedish speaking Uni probably underlines that. Unless anyone has a source that proves otherwise?

Re:Linus is a Swedish Finn not a Finn Finn

[Marcion]

Not a source but the Wikipedia seems to imply that he is a swedish speaking Finn, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds but going by grandparents alone is a bit dodgy.

Re:Linus is a Swedish Finn not a Finn Finn

[Anonymous Coward]

Linus isn't a particularily Swedish name. "Torvalds" on the other hand, is.

And Linus Torvalds is most definitely a Finland-Swede (finlandssvensk). He's
said so in plenty of interviews. It's not just because of his grandfather, who if
mentioned, is mentioned because he's one of the most noteworthy Finland-Swedish literary figures of the last century.

Also, Linus speaks Swedish with a Finland-Swedish dialect, not a Finnish accent. I've heard him myself.

Plenty of Finland-Swedes study (and work) at Helsinki Uni. I've met more than a few.

That said, the original post is simply a troll or someone who seems to have difficulty understanding
the difference between nationality and ethnicity.

Try telling a Finn that Mannerheim or Sibelius or Runeberg wasn't Finnish. It'd be like telling an American that George Washington was English.

Re:Linus is a Swedish Finn not a Finn Finn

[Fri13]

"Linus is a Swedish Finn not a Finn Finn"

He ain't a Swedish Finn but Finn Swedish. Because he was living in Finland and spoke Swedish as home language. If he would live in Sweden and speak Finnish as home language, then he would be Swedish Finn...

Swedish Finn != Finn Swedish

Swedish Finn = Lives in Sweden and speaks Finnish
Finn Swedish = Lives in Finland and speaks Swedish

Re:Russia OWNS Linux (mode me flamebait if you wan

[temcat]

Beware of anonymous cowards?

Linux and Communism

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a perfect match to me.

Re:Russia OWNS Linux (mode me flamebait if you wan

[Chemicalscum]

Linus's father was a Finnish communist journalist and a leading figure in the Communist Party of Finland who spent a lot of time living in Russia. I gather from Linus's book that these long absences in part contributed to the break up of his parents marriage.

Russia isn't communist...

[Colin Smith]

It's a federal republican democracy with a capitalist economy... Has been for years.

Doesn't make it a good democracy, but then, the US can't exactly throw stones in that regard either.

Government-approved Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another example that Linux can only compete through government mandate; government shoving it down its citizen's throats. Well, what else would you expect from dictatorship (which Putin has turned Russia's "democracy" into).

Any takers on whether this Russian Government version of Linux violates GPL? You can bet that there will be modifications that will NOT be given back to the "community", just as is the case with China's "Red Flag" Linux.

Sadly, it would appear that rich schools will pay for the privilidge to use higher quality commercial software while poorer ones will have to make do with Russia OS Linux.

Re:Government-approved Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

What part of the GPL forces users to give changes back to the 'community'?

In fact, if they don't distribute and only use internally to their education system, one would argue that they don't even have to distribute the source.

Re:This anti-piracy move shoud make Microsft happy

[petermgreen]

They can't admit it but it is far better for MS if people use pirate MS software than if they use linux.

Linux reaching a large enough market share for software vendors to take it seriously would be incrediablly damaging to MS.

Not a balanced starting point

[r_jensen11]

By giving you more control of the OS internals, and by having a steeper usage learning curve.

Once you become proficient in using Linux you are having a better understanding of OS and network internals than your Windows-using peers.

You're making it sound like most windows users are proficient in using Windows. Just because something is there doesn't mean that it's going to be used. In this case, just because the code is there for everyone doesn't mean that many of these students are going to dig around and play with the code. They're going to treat it just like they do when they use Windows.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[MikeBabcock]

If in fact Windows users were all like that, I wouldn't have to fix so many computers. Unfortunately, computer users tend to be experimental, having no respect for how fragile their Windows PCs really are, and often break them by following directions in message boards and from friends on how to manually install some pirated software or CD imager, or play DivX movies, etc.

On Linux, I've seen the same thing, but at a much more legitimate level (I believe), in fact I had a non-techy friend recently tell me he'd installed FC7 on his laptop and was wondering what to do now that he'd unpacked and compiled a program he downloaded. He wasn't sure where the icon had gone after 'configure, make, make install' and I explained how to copy the ".desktop" file from another program and edit it, and he started making icons for all the programs he didn't have icons for (many of which require command-line arguments, but oh well).

Lots of people hack around with Windows for fun, lots of people hack around with Linux for fun. The difference is that Windows users have huge walls of limitation set up in front of them, Linux users do not.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[Machtyn]

just because the code is there for everyone doesn't mean that many of these students are going to dig around and play with the code. No, but at least the user has the chance to learn. In MS Windows, there are some things you just won't be able to learn. (Hostname, why do I need a hostname and what is it?)

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[jc42]

I explained how to copy the ".desktop" file from another program and edit it, and he started making icons for all the programs he didn't have icons for (many of which require command-line arguments, but oh well).

Hmmm ... I'd never heard of .desktop files, so I used find(1) to hunt down all of them on a nearby linux machine. It found only one:
    ~/.kde/share/apps/RecentDocuments/.desktop
That isn't a very big sample set, but of course I cat'd it:

[Desktop Entry]
Icon=folder
Name=
Type=Link
URL=file:///
X-KDE-LastOpenedWith=kfmclient_dir

This is total gibberish to me. Is it documented somewhere that's handy? Google didn't help, because of course it strips off the '.' and finds zillions of matches. I found one hit for "man -k .desktop", pointing to dh_desktop(1), but the content of this doc doesn't give many clues about creating or using such files. It only says that this command "registers" .desktop files, whatever the hell that means. There's no mention of the format of the file, or of the [dbhelper options] on the command line.

So where would a curious kid learn about such things? First off, what good are they? (I.e., what can you do with them, besides "register" them? ;=]

Sorry to be so ignorant; I've only been using linux for a decade or so, so I don't know everything about all of it.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[Tyr_7BE]

Most will treat it just like windows. But there's always going to be that small percentage who won't. They'll be interested in how the internals work, and if there's one thing Linux does great it's give you access to the guts of the OS.

Consider that someone who is interested in hacking up an OS and seeing how it works has any number of ways to go about it on Linux, and pretty much nothing to go on with Windows.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[Daengbo]

Is your version of Linux and actual Desktop machine? Is it one of the ones which tries to follow Freedesktop.org's guidelines? I ask because I have 2176 .desktop files, mostly in /usr/share/applications and ~/.local/share/applications. They are application launchers.The .desktop standard is on the Freedesktop.org wiki. Ten years is a long time to go without running into a .desktop file, considering KDE has been using them for as long as I can remember.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[mikael]

Try ".desktop files" linux.

Here's a link: .desktop files and security

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[Anonymous Coward]

He wasn't sure where the icon had gone after 'configure, make, make install' and I explained how to copy the ".desktop" file from another program and edit it

That's really not necessary on Fedora. Right click on the Applications menu and click "edit menus". You can create a new menu item from there. Much more newbie-friendly.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[GPL Apostate]

Thanks, I'll just keep on editing .fvwm2rc now....

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[Daengbo]

Just because you don't personally use them, doesn't mean you need to revel in ignorance of a Linux desktop standard.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[GPL Apostate]

You meant to type: "Just because you don't choose to consume most of your processor's overhead..."

I tried KDE a long time ago, when it heavily taxed my hardware (a 486 running Linux at the time- my main machine then) I've tried some of the 'new' desktop schemes since then. It seems like no matter what else can be said about Linux 'desktop schemes' their main purpose is to chew up whatever resources are thrown at them. It's NOT impressive. I guess it sells new hardware and that's partly the point.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[Daengbo]

No. That's not what I meant. Geeks who use Linux should understand the trends and standards for it, whether they choose to follow those standards or not. Desktop users should understand desktop standards. You chose not to use them. Great. The original poster claimed ten years' experience in Linux without know what the default launcher for 90% of Linux / BSD desktops looks like. Know your system.

By the way, are you stalking me? You've replied to three or four of my posts in the last two days.

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[jusdisgi]

Sure enough, KDE and GNOME don't run well on 486 hardware. But if you aren't impressed with their abilities on modern machines, you probably just aren't cut out for modern desktop computing. That's cool...just have fun over there with your 32 xterms on windowmaker and leave the rest of us alone, OK?

Re:Not a balanced starting point

[GPL Apostate]

Most of the apps I use are graphical. The thing is, I don't need to tie them together with a big wad of middleware GUI to get valuable use from them.

Some of us, you see, have better use for our processing cycles than as eye candy.

Third World Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux seems to really be making inroads in the third world and less developed countries.
I would love to see Linux take over China, Russia, Brazil, Eastern Europe, India, Mexico, and Southeast Asia. As we progress towards the browser-centric software area (read: "Network is the computer" type ideology), I think Linux deployment will boom.

Customization, internationalization, and price are the key features that I think will push Linux ahead. At the same time, I hope the Open Source movement will continued to stress cross-platform,
which will make migration to Linux much easier for people.

I do not believe..

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, I do not believe Russian educational system is going Linux!

Even though Open Source software is well-covering school needs (especially after Star Office became open source),
the inertia is enormous: Russia now is very windows-oriented. Linux, FreeBSD is geekish. Macs are so rare
that maybe many do not know they exist (outside of publishing, some universities and some regions, like Karelia, where
they were 12 years ago introduced to education.) All education softwares are for Windows. All games are for Windows.
Pupil's home computers are Windows ones because of games. In the "real life" its almost always Windows at the offices.
Of course, Russian Linux may solve some of the problems (like having live cd for home) and probably schools will benefit
from not having a danger of installing games on school computers, but educational software should be an effort.
Arguably, old educational software works even _better_ under dosbox and Wine than in the Windows XP (!) - at least that is what I do when
some old disk can't be run in Win XP because its made for Win95 or Win3.1. But still...

Another reason which hinders adoption of Linux in Russia is lack of broadband Internet connections... Otherwise Linux (e.g. Ubintu)
is much more cool: just select whatever you want and it is here. Russian OS can have its own system of repositories and use, for example,
satellite connections to download software (say, you switch on satellite receivers on 30th of August and computers are loaded
for the new school year in a day or two).

Probably, this is some kind of political move. Politicians rarely care about the good for he society in Russia: they speak a lot, but
doings should have real motive beyond saving trillions of roubles on software (as NOT saving them can mean more dinners at
MS and partners, etc, etc). I do not believe "russian soul" is decisive in this kind of decisions.

But lets see.

Linux Penetration, hmm

[LM741N]

Would have to be one of those USB sticks. Can't imagine a CD fitting anywhere.
Triple penetration would be Vista, Linux, BSD.

MOD PARENT UP!

[ColdWetDog]

For great justice.

Re:This anti-piracy move shoud make Microsft happy

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't admit it ?
"It's easier for our software to compete with Linux when there's piracy than when there's not,"
-- Bill Gates

And he and other Microsoft execs have made many similar claims.

just stay out of germany :(

[pimpimpim]

Yes, and out here in Germany we now by law are not allowed to do stuff like that anymore, on our way to the computational dark ages, so don't expect any German company to stop hacking attacks anymore, not allowed to use hacking tools ourselves. In fact, it's like being in a cold war and removing all your defense lines.

Let me put it straight, I don't think all Russians are money-greedy hackers, in fact getting kids out there learn Linux will give them an advantage in lots of fields, so less need for criminal activities. But still I will keep stressing how stupid this German decision was :(

Re:Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducat

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to check out advocacy/blog sites as well.

Here's an example:
http://cdneducation.blogspot.com/

It's not about independence from commercial sw

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about independence from a closed source operating system whose producer is strongly tied to the US government, something which should raise big red alerts in any non US controlled/enslaved country. Windows is packed by spyware to control what the users do and people still think US agencies aren't using those features to fulfill their interests?
The Russians are doing nothing more than preparing the new generation to remove a spyware software disguised as an operating system from ther country and I would expect many (again non US controlled/enslaved) countries to do the same.

Re:Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducat

[jimicus]

I've been trying to get the techies at my school to consider linux and open source for a while now. They are not interested, distrust things that are free and find it easier just to follow the commercial software peddled to them or recommended by the UK government's BECTA organisation.

I've worked as the techie in a school myself before. Most of my experience is a few years old but I understand very little has changed.

• The Microsoft licensing for schools questionaire to work out how many licenses you need (certainly the version I filled out, though it may since have changed) demands you list and pay for EVERY PC-compatible system. (Or at least every PC compatible that's not so elderly that there's no way in hell it's running anything recent). So if you want the heavy educational discount, you've got to license Microsoft software for everything. Suddenly "save a bit of money on open source" doesn't sound so promising.
  
• Are you supplied by RM? RM have a "fantastic" support policy [cough] which a lot of schools buy into because the theory is that it gives their techies someone to fall back on - but the support is conditional upon you not installing a single thing which isn't on the "RM approved" list. As soon as one thing that's not on the list goes on the network, RM have it written into the support contract that they can and will throw their hands up at any problem that's thrown at them and say "Not our problem because you plugged in that unauthorised device" (regardless of how relevant that device is).
  
• Teachers. Their job is to teach. As part of that job, they expect to be able to pick up software to help them do it - announcing "Oh, by the way, you'll need to find a Linux version from now on" will go down like a lead balloon.
  
• Control. Your average school PC is locked down tighter than a nun's knickers, controlled through the various network-wide policy tools that Microsoft provides - and there simply isn't such a tool available in Linux. (Well, OK, there is if you count the likes of cfengine. But cfengine is a very complex tool to setup which doesn't come preconfigured on any major distribution and lacks a sensible GUI of any description). Whether you like it or not such control is necessary because there's bound to be some smartypants who will cause a teacher to panic out of all proportion when his custom .xsession file loads afterstep rather than gnome.
  

The upshot is that Linux is going to be an uphill struggle in any school without a push from above. It may be found in embedded or turnkey systems where the OS is of little consequence, such as NAS devices, but that's as far as it's likely to go.

Linux really is important

[Ghubi]

Open source programs like Firefox that run on windows don't encourage software companies to release Linux versions of their products. As long as the software I want to run requires windows and I'm not smrt enough to use wine I'm stuck with windows.

Inevitable comment...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia Linux teaches you!

Re:Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducat

[Virgil Tibbs]

cheers for the info
ive just started trying at my school
techie MS fanboys REALLY piss me off
if you live within a 50 mile radius of liverpool get back to me cos i have an interesting link...

Jokes

[BitwizeGHC]

Congratulations, Slashdot trolls -- the "In Soviet Russia" jokes now write themselves.

Re:Jokes

[SeaFox]

In Soviet Russia, jokes write YOU!

MOD UP

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD UP Parent

"Lenix"

[Aokubidaikon]

Would get my vote! How about a poll on this, Slashdot!

Re:"Lenix"

[aldo.gs]

I was going to say "Marx: it has the x already!", but it should be a Russian name. Not that 'OS' is very Russian... and not that Marx is the same as Lenin... or Linux, for that matter :P

If I may...

[Ghubi]

Quote from the US declaration of independence

all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. my favorite historical document

Re:If I may...

[Anonymous Coward]

it was more about greed than freedom, the other countries did not revolt and they are doing better than the US now.

Penguin or prison

[symbolset]

After events like this case of Alexander Ponosov the choice is clear. If there is no money for licensing or your licensing vendor can't be trusted, there is no third choice. It's penguins or prisons.

It is time that Russian schools recognized that prohibition doesn't work. All this what-about-the-children zero tolerance for freedom War On Penguins does is encourage crime and populate the prisons. When will US schools see the light?

Re:Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducat

[pluke]

The openeducationcd is a good place to start. I've put it into my school and the kids are using it. Due to that we have a few open source programs on the school system, but it took me two years just to get them. They would much rather pay for photoshop than use GIMP / Paint.net. For me the issue isn't really the fact it is open source, more the fact that I'm at a poor school and the kids can't afford to buy commercial products, even the stupidly named educational licenses. Rather than tell them to pirate everything I show them some free stuff. They can't understand how it can be free.

Coming to a linux-distro near you...

[Anonymous Coward]

it's the all new and improved KGB Desktop Environment!

New linux virues & exploits

[Ruvim]

If this is true, there will be lots of smart teenagers with free time on their hands and everyday access to Linux OS. I see lots of new Linux viruses and exploits coming out shortly.

Re:New linux virues & exploits

[OzFalcon]

Which is probably a good thing to do BEFORE Linux is as mainstream as windows.
Get these Viruses & stuff out there so the measures to protect against them mature and are built into Linux ready to go on default installs for the masses.

Re:New linux virues & exploits

[Obsidian Butterfly]

If this is true, there will be lots of smart teenagers with free time on their hands and everyday access to Linux OS. I see lots of new Linux viruses and exploits coming out shortly.

OH NOEZ!! Teh 133T h4xx0rz in Russia are going to send me an email virus, or attack my browser with a malicious script! Whatever shall I do?
[...wrings hands...]

Phew, you really had me going there for a minute! I guess I'll have to go take a shower, since my clothes are drenched in sweat from all the anxiety!

Re:New linux virues & exploits

[Technician]

I see lots of new Linux viruses and exploits coming out shortly.

Missed and lots of social engineering to get clueless users to install and execute the code.

Misleading info

[doktorstop]

That article, no matter what it claims, is totally misleading as, according to most other sources (namely gazeta.ru) this line of argumentation ("oh, we are going to build our own OS!") is solely used as a way to make a better deal with MS after the serie of busts in the russian schools using pirated copies of Windows. No matter what it does, the Russian Ministry of Education is not stupid.. they just want a better deal.

Re:Misleading info

[LingNoi]

I don't believe you.

After what happened to that teacher that was going to get sent to a Serbian prison camp for having 10 unlicensed copies of XP at his school and the fact that Microsoft is an American company I don't believe that Russia would EVER want to use Microsoft's products.

Re:Misleading info

[Walter Carver]

No matter what it does, the Russian Ministry of Education is not stupid .. they just want a better deal. Wait a minute. Why would they be stupid for using Linux (or BSD) or developing their own fork from it? That would make them smart (not to depend on an American company), not stupid.

Linus has a Swedish accent

[Anonymous Coward]

He must be a Swede. Besides, I read somewhere (Online) that he is one of the 300,000 Swedes from Finland.

What distro are they going to use?

[LingNoi]

I wondered why no one had asked this...

Rubuntu? Rentoo? Rudora?!

Re:What distro are they going to use?

[Anonymous Coward]

Borix - A distro from Linus's Russian cousin, Boris Torvalds

Re:What distro are they going to use?

[dp_wiz]

There are 3 competing distros for this project:
  * ASP Linux (RH clone)
  * ALTLinux and
  * RedHat itself

Re:What distro are they going to use?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Runtu

Re:What distro are they going to use?

[Mr. Roadkill]

Rubuntu? Rentoo? Rudora?!

Scooby! Put those install discs down and run! The Ghost of the Redmond Rustler is coming up behind you RIGHT NOW!

Russians != North Americans

[n dot l]

They're going to treat it just like they do when they use Windows. No. They aren't. They're going to do everything they can to become proficient with the technology. They're going to do this because intelligence is highly valued in Russia and life is much better for those that can prove that they have it.

Re:Russians != North Americans

[jusdisgi]

Bwahaha.

Yeah, intelligence isn't valued highly in North America. Nor is life any better for the smart. Only (barely-)ex-communist countries with shocking corruption under increasingly authoritarian rule could be so enlightened.

(Dumbfuck.)

Re:Russians != North Americans

[n dot l]

There's a difference between "excel in school and you'll magically get a job that earns you more money" and "excel in school and find a way to be useful to someone with power, or live your (significantly shorter) life subsistence farming/in the infantry/in abject poverty". Let's not forget that the lower bound on their standard of living is a hell of a worse than ours is, and that the prospect of starving to death can be an excellent motivator.

On top of that their culture doesn't waste its energy pushing kids to be popular/pretty/famous/waste their money on idiotic media trash/etc. It's rather busy teaching them to survive.

shocking corruption under increasingly authoritarian rule could be so enlightened. Bwahaha.

Yeah, because people that live a hard life under evil dictator overlords could never possibly figure out how to get (slightly) ahead in life all by themselves. Only people in western, democratic nations with massive runaway bureaucracies under weak-willed poll-chasing "leadership" could ever be clever enough to figure out the basics of survival.

(Dumbfuck.) Yeah...right...

The sooner the so-called "First" world gets over the notion that people living in the "Third" world are "just like us, except poorer", the better.

Re:Russians != North Americans

[jusdisgi]

The sooner the so-called "First" world gets over the notion that people living in the "Third" world are "just like us, except poorer", the better.

While that has no bearing whatsoever on my post or its criticism of your first one, it's still a lot closer to the mark than your wild-eyed theory that bad regimes make for a smarter and more motivated populous. If you couldn't get that point the first time, there's probably not much left to talk about.

Re:Russians != North Americans

[n dot l]

wild-eyed theory that bad regimes make for a smarter and more motivated populous How is this "wild-eyed theory"? It should be fairly obvious. If group A goes through school surrounded by peers and media that tell them they need to be pretty or sexy or cool and that being a nerd is uncool, and group B goes through school constantly reminded that if they fail and can't find jobs they'll end up starving on the street - which group will, on average, be more motivated to study? Do you really not see the difference between a culture where reckless behavior is encouraged (go ahead, waste your hard-earned money, buy stuff...we have cheap credit to bail you out!) and a culture that's had 70 years of "your uncle lost his (manual labor) job due to an injury and died on the street because we had no room to take him in and no money to feed him" and "your great-grandfather died in a labor camp, he was sent there because he constantly skipped work"?

Arguing over "smarter" is pointless (we'd probably flame each other to death just defining "smart") but I certainly think a case can be made for "more motivated" and, say, "more disciplined". Interestingly enough, discipline is something that has been shown to have a positive effect on education...but let's not go drawing any conclusions...

Re:Russians != North Americans

[jusdisgi]

How is this "wild-eyed theory"? It should be fairly obvious.

Oh for Pete's sake! What should be obvious to even the most thickheaded observer of history and economics is that bad regimes DON'T lead to more educated and motivated people! You just have to look...

Your whole theory here is based on conjecture and some weird oversimplification. None of it has any grounding in what we have actually seen happen in this world. You think "If they have to make it or die, they'll do more to make it than we will" which sounds great and all....the only thing is, it's not true. We do not typically see bad regimes turn out great economies and highly-educated people! Open and free societies demonstrably educate their people better, and their populations clearly exhibit motivation (proxied by economic production) far in excess of their authoritarian counterparts. And while we're at it, at no point in the history of the world, since fucking Rurik, has the Russian population at large been as well educated as the population of western Europe or the post-colonial US. Your idea is based on what you think sounds like it ought to be right. Mine is based on the actual historical facts.

samizdat!

[danny]

There are some people who will get their code contributions out to the world even if they have to smuggle them out in printed form.

Danny.

Re:samizdat!

[lahvak]

There are some people who will get their code contributions out to the world even if they have to smuggle them out in printed form.

You mean in typewritten form. 20 copies at a time, with 19 layers of carbon paper.

Re:samizdat!

[Antique Geekmeister]

Or on T-shirts. (http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/shirt/)

Get Real

[Jane Q. Public]

They are going to distribute it. And they are going to call it their own. Realistically, what do you expect can be done about it?

Only SANE Governments Do This

[Jane Q. Public]

That is why you have not been seeing the U.S. Government doing it.

Seriously... if you were a government, and you wanted an OS to use for internal business, and even (in some cases) security and military, which would you choose? A proprietary OS, the source code of which is kept secret (even from you), or an OS with open-source code, the security of which does NOT depend on "security through obscurity"?

A lot of national governments have banned the use of Windows for internal use. And I do not blame them a bit. Sane governments do not rely on others to keep their secrets for them.

Therefore, the United States Government is (choose one):

(A) Insane

(B) Uninformed

(C) Completely Clueless

(D) Unable To Function In A Realistic Manner

(E) Unaware Of Who Its Real Friends Are

(E) All Of The Above

Re:Only SANE Governments Do This

[Lennie]

Actually the US government uses Linux and Windows and maybe more and they do have access to the source of both.

Re:Correction..

[Technician]

At the risk of sounding trollish, but people have been getting Windows at no additional cost for a long time

Correction, people have been getting Windows at the risk of a BSA audit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6499843.stm

It wasn't the purchase price that disrupted the Windows market. It was the disruption by the BSA.

Not an RH clone

[dallaylaen]

ALT Linux seems to be a Redhat recompile in the style of CentOS with some extra Russian documentation etc.

ALT Linux is based on a community-driven repository called Sisyphus. It was a Mandrake clone long ago, but has evolved into a separate distribution. For instance, it uses an apt/rpm hybrid package management system instead of Mandrake's urpmi.

While it has some drawbacks and is sometimes dependent on the upstream, it's still a valid choice if you need a Russian-speaking community. Not Debian yet, but not an RH clone as well.

The ALTLinux company, on the other hand, is known for holding various linux-related events and generally pushing linux in Russia.

License

[yoprst]

Russian government often promises more than it delivers. On the other hand Russian government is in the procces of passing a law that requires a license for programming, which will render Russian shareware illegal. That, I'm sure, is something they will deliver.

Re:License

[yoprst]

oops, sorry. license for distribution of programs, which will render domestic shareware illegal.

no kidding

[misanthrope101]

Might the US government look askance at closed-source Russian software that was rumored to contain government-compliant (Russian government, that is) backdoors? It'a a bit obvious that we wouldn't want to trust that, especially with a new cold war brewing. For all Putin knows (not that he's famed for paranoia or anything) the NSA has an instant backdoor to every Windows installation connected to the net, or a kill switch, or whatever. I'd be moving to Linux too.

Re:no kidding

[rtb61]

You forget that the Russian government has access to the windows source code, so they might simply know exactly how bad, buugy and insecure it really is. Now in the counter intelligence game if you are going to produce and release a bunch of windows virus it would make sense, that as much as possible of your own computer infrastructure was not running windows. You can't produce patches to secure yourself from your own viruses otherwise the other side would also pick them up.

Now, more seriously, given a big push to Linux in education means that Russian tech industry will have a significant competitive advantage as Linux becomes the dominant operating system, whether in servers, on the desktop, or embedded in appliances. Russia is likely to make a big push in the software and hardware markets over the next decade as they work to achieve technological independence from China and India and technolgical parity with the EU and the US, very serious stuff indeed.

The response from the Russian

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux alliance is a group of independed russian FOSS companies. It based on the third largest in the world by source code packages count community-supported deposiatary of GNU GPL Linux software. Linux alliance in favour of GNU GPL and support it.

Depositary name is Sisyphus. http://sisyphus.ru/ . Distributive name is ALT Linux ( http://www.linux.com/feature/119106 ). ALT Linux is a member of Linux alliance.

Most likely to win the tender Linux alliance. The main competitor, which is likely to lose is IBM, promotes distribution Ubuntu.

Sorry for my bad english, i am Russian.

Which distribution has been chosen ?

[J4nus_slashdotter]

Do we have already an idea about the choice of the distribution ? A commercial distribution or more common ? It's maybe the beginning of a worldwide change at the education level...

Ballmer was right!

[Droid Rot]

Steve Ballmer was right. Linux IS communism!

But seriously, when western commercial (capitalist) software companies have been sued into oblivion over "patent infringements", we can rest assure that we can look to the east for free and cheap software.

Long live the revolution, comrades!

Re:Correction..

[budgenator]

Actually I was referring to the broader state of affairs rather than specifically to a particular case, it's easy for people to see that a computer with
Windows installed sold for $599.00,
Linux installed sold for $625.95,
No OS installed sold for $665.00;
and conclude that windows is not only free, but valueless the same attitude they have with Linux. Linux has the tougher row to hoe when prices are seem as equal because it requires more user involvement than windows does. The BSA goons by bullying the Russian schools into getting a non-pirated OS are simply positioning Linux as the incumbent system, so now in Russia this and future generations of kids will see Linux as the system of choice and nothing that Redmond can do is likely to change the Russians position on this.

What happens when Teachers in the US say to Microsoft, "Redhat bidded out the software package for $39.95 a seat installed and configured on site for 150 seats in 5 locations and they'll have 5 RHCEs hang around for a week giving on-site support and training"?

Yet Another Communism Joke

[Anonymous Coward]

Those darn communists and their Red Hats...

*ducks*

Re:Great, the penguin goes red! A positive change

[lsatenstein]

Linux is international. And irrespective of country, linux is saving money for governments, schools, and that translates to saving taxes. If you were to assess the major use of XP in the home or school, there would be less than 6 topics, ranging from writing, spread-sheet, internet, emails and other lower priority activities that are used by 99% of the population. As for hacking, the same people intent on hacking are world-wide residents without borders. In closing, Bravo Russia. Leslie in Montreal, Canada Remember, Russia was first with Man in Space. No country has exclusivity on intelligence.

Re:Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducat

[skoval]

> Well done Russia.
I live in Russia. I don't beleive it'll ever come true due to our government, bureaucracy and people stupidity.
BTW Russia voted YES on OOXML. Some enthusiasts were recently trying to get protocols or analysis reports on which this decision was based but they had no luck because it seems that decision was based on msft money not analysis.

Re:Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducat

[Virgil Tibbs]

its a shame that i disagree with its 'open source' philosphy - i'm a 'free softwaare' person... having said that it still looks like a good thing and i dont want to cause myself to many problems.
my current school which i have just moved to has no F/LOSS which is really rubbish. as a 24/7 gnu+linux user its hard moving to win xp & ie 7....
having to do web design in dreamweaver and frontpage2003... YUK.
but in many ways it is the right thing to do - if you introduce these kids, for what ever reason you want to using F/LOSS maybe a few years down the line,
after they have finished complaining about it they will see its benefits and perhaps switch to ubuntu or linux mint or something.... from there, debian & gentoo await. (then comes gNewSense and Utotu)

But i know what you mean. it is hard for people to understand why high quality stuff can be free. but if you look at bill gate's open letter ( the really famous one) its quite easy to explain....

- no computer hobbiest can spend 4 years of his life bug checking etc....
but 50 computer hobbiest can spend 2 hours a week doig that....

Re:Getting Linux into western schools / OpenEducat

[Virgil Tibbs]

i didnt realise it was canical sponsored...
perhaps i am wrong about it being 'open source' on purpose... and not free software...
anyway... enough said.. it is probably safe to disregard my comments regarding ideology conflicts

no brainer

[Anonymous Coward]

This one is a no-brainer. First, you declare Linux your eductional OS, then you admit that you've been slack on piracy and bring off a serious long term crackdown. Microsoft products simply cease to exist within your national boundaries... and they invite you to join the WTO as an exemplar new member.

The second verse is also obvious. An unltra-nationalist government decides to promote "national" music and films. They place a sky high import tax on applicable items, subsidize "national culture" and crackdown on piracy. The RIAA couldn't possible complain.

Macedonia will install 180K Ubunu thin clients

[vladoboss]

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS7546509093.html I tried to post this article on slashdot but it was rejected :-( After opening the free internet clubs in every city in Macedonia for older and poor people which work on Ubuntu, this government continue to pleasantly surprise me :-)

nethack (un)censored

[jetxee]

Actually, for some reason you `forgot' to mention

/usr/share/doc/nethack-common
/usr/share/doc/nethack-console
/usr/share/doc/nethack
/usr/share/doc/nethack-spoilers