The Latest From the Front in the Console Wars

The October NPD numbers are out, and (now that we know we'll keep getting the information) it's time once again for analysis and reaction from media and businesses alike. GameDaily has a one year later look at the fight that began last holiday season. As for the numbers themselves, with Halo 3 now a known quantity in the market the 360 is down to 366,000 from 527,800 in September. Microsoft is still quite happy with software sales, though. The PS3 only saw 121,000 units sold last month, but early news from November has Sony very excited. And all the while, somehow, the Wii manages to sell even more units. The system is up to 519,000 from 501,000 in September, with the DS slight down to 458,000 from 495,800. As the GameDaily analysis article concludes: "the race for console dominance is still anyone's to win. The 2007 holiday buying season will be crucial to setting all three players' market positions going into next year. Which is all nice to know, of course, but not that important to actually enjoying your system of choice well into the future."

Comments

Wiiiii!

[Kenoli]

the race for console dominance is still anyone's to win

I disagree.

Re:Wiiiii!

[achilles777033]

Maybe. I tend to agree, but the article had a couple good points. if Wii owners don't keep buying games, did Nintendo really win? Also, Final Fantasy is likely to sell a lot of Playstations. Many FF fans are in the same category of rabid loyalty as Halo fans, and they'll shell out the green just to play the next one.

Re:Wiiiii!

[gravis777]

I am waiting to see the November sales figures. Sony has really been pulling out the advertising lately, has had a couple of kick-ass system exclusives, and had a huge price drop (at the cost of loosing backwards combatability). I am really interested to see how Sony's plan worked out.

And its amazing that over a year after the introduction, people still wait in lines to get Wii's. I just happened to go to the store on the right day and got mine..

Re:Wiiiii!

[nomadic]

if Wii owners don't keep buying games

It would be very possible. I got a wii about 2 months ago and I've bought a single wii game since then. I want to buy more, I eagerly scan the videogame store shelf every week, but the games tend to be underwhelming at best.

Re:Wiiiii!

[usul294]

Exactly, has anyone played Mario galaxy? Point-set-match. Owning both Halo 3 and Galaxy, Galaxy is by far a superior game. Halo 3 is great, but is a stepped up Halo 2, and doesn't try to do anything new, I played it every night when it first came out, but now its down to a night per week or so, which is how much I was playing Halo 2 when Halo 3 came out. Anyways, Wii also has the fantastic quality of having a buzz about how cool it is. What does this mean? Its a magnet for getting girls to come to my dorm room. "Oh, you have a Wii, guy I met yesterday, we should get together and play that sometime." Its happened at least 6 times to me in the past year. The Wii get-together also makes a great follow-up date, because its laid back, fun, and is a good way to get to know someone.

Re:Wiiiii!

[orclevegam]

Yes, Nintendo won even if people stop buying games for it. It's the third party developers that get screwed at that point. That being said I don't think that will be the case though. The Wii is in an adjustment period. The DS went through the same thing. Developers are still trying to adapt to the system and find out what does and does not work with it. When the DS first came out the only decent games were for the most part created by Nintendo with most of the third party games being mediocre. The Wii is going through the same thing now. Almost all the good games are by Nintendo with the third party items (for the most part) being decidedly mediocre. With luck however the developers will pull through and we'll start to see games from third parties soon every bit as polished and fun as Nintendo's own offerings.

Re:Wiiiii!

[ByOhTek]

But why would Wii owners stop buying games?

Also, as an FF fan, I can say XIII will be the first FF I don't buy - Not worth spending the money on a PS3 for.

Re:Wiiiii!

[mlk]

I disagree. Go into Game and look at the amount of shelf space given to each console, and each consoles games. Wii - very little for both. PS3 - Hidden at the back of the store (in my locale store the [b]GameCube[/b] got more (and better) space). 360 - Large amount of prime space for both console and games.

The PS3 will need to do something great to push it forward. The Wii is for many a one game console (until Nintendo releases a new game in the Wii Sports range).

Re:Wiiiii!

[Pojut]

I can understand why you might like Galaxy more than Halo 3, but can you really say it's a better game the way that you are?

Halo is a sci-fi first person shoot everything game. Galaxy is a time your jump find all the stars while doing fun acrobatic movements game.

Two very VERY different games.

Re:Wiiiii!

[orclevegam]

I think you'll find Sony's move is too little too late. At this point they're just hoping to stay in the game long enough to slide into a third place finish, or if they're really really lucky rally back and tie for second. It's a shame too, I used to be a big fan of the PS2 and was really looking forward to the PS3, but then they announced the price and I said screw that. At this point I'm happy with my Wii (pre-ordered, so I had mine on launch day), and I've been eyeballing a 360 so I might grab one of those, particularly it they have another price drop, but even with the reduced price the PS3 just isn't appealing at this point.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Ang31us]

Right on, Kenoli! Nintendo's console is:

1. Less expensive 2. More innovative 3. More fun

Almost every game that Nintendo publishes is a must-have and there are a number of great third-party titles (Resident Evil, Madden, Elebits, Rayman, and Call of Duty come to mind). Now that we all know how excellent Super Mario Galaxy is, there will be a new system-seller this holiday season.

Note that Nintendo has not had to drop the price on the Wii since launch. Surely, manufacturing the system has become less expensive, Nintendo is making even more money from the system, they are producing more Wiis for sale at retail, and still can't keep the system on the shelves!!!

The Wii has over-taken the 360 as this generation's console market leader while selling systems for half as much time.

The ONLY thing the Wii is missing as a game system is high-definition graphics rendering and I expect that Nintendo will give us that in their next generation system, along with highly improved motion control. I can only imagine how much Nintendo's new system will !!!ROCK!!! when that day comes. Quoting the movie 300, "THIS IS SLASHDOT!!!" (err, Sparta) where the Wii rules ;-) .

Re:Wiiiii!

[AKAImBatman]

if Wii owners don't keep buying games, did Nintendo really win?

Yes, actually. Because Nintendo made a profit on the Wii from Day #1. As other console manufacturers optimize their manufacturing costs to produce their consoles at a lower loss (or simply reduce the street price and take the same loss), Nintendo's profit margins simply grow as they optimize their processes. Thus Nintendo "wins" regardless.

The real question is, what happens to the game producers? The argument exists that if the Wii wins, all we'll end up with is Mario and Wii Sports. To which I think it's important to turn around that argument and look at it from another angle. Nintendo currently has about 14 million consoles out there, and a shipped Wii is effectively a sold Wii. Thus the Wii presents a tremendous opportunity to game producers.

This huge market payed $250 for Wii Sports. As a game producer, it then becomes your job to understand that market and produce more content for it. More to the point, it becomes the job of game producers to produce content that the market wants. Wii players are less likely to want Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty 4. (Oh look, another military FPS! Who would have thought?) So stop trying to sell them the same games you've been selling teenage boys, and start doing some market research. Make games that are compelling to the casual market, and you will win.

The best part? You don't even have to spend tens of millions on the game! A sizable sum of Wii players are attracted to casual games, which have far, far lower budgets than the so-called "triple-A" titles. Perhaps this generation could even see the downloadable game surpassing the sales of the traditional shrink-wrapped game. (If Nintendo ever gets off their butts and offers WiiWare games, that is. :P)

Re:Wiiiii!

[Zelos]

There's Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3 out at the moment,both fantastic games, plus Zak&Wiki (in the US, 2008 EU). Personally, I've also bought and enjoyed (in order of decreasing greatness):

Mario Strikers
Excite Truck
RE4:Wii
Warioware
Eledees
Super Paper Mario

and I'm looking forward to Super Smash Bros Brawl, Battalion Wars 2, Mario Kart Wii and maybe Resident Evil:UC.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Zelos]

It's been interesting watching the shelf space given to the Wii gradually increase. Earlier in the year you could have missed the Wii section entirely if you weren't looking carefully, now it's generally front-and-centre.

Re:Wiiiii!

[AvitarX]

I got the Wii because it was cheap enough and appealing enough for me to convince my wife ti was worth buying. I would love Assasin's Creed and COD4, and would buy the first on day one (assuming of course it plays well, and isn't gimped in gamplay (lower graphics are fine). I don't know if it is possibly to match gameplay depth from 360 to Wii, especially for a sanbox style game, but if it were I would be all-over it.

There has to be a lot of one gamer families that got a Wii (of course maybe 360 is cheap enough now that they have that too).

COD4 I would be less excited about but pick up when it was a "classic hit" or what not.

Re:Wiiiii!

[tbannist]

You've got it backwards. The majority of the Wii target audience aren't gamers, the proper question is "Why would they start buying games"?

The "big games" are still all aimed at the PS3 and the 360 because that's where the gamers will end up. The Wii could end up moving the most hardware, but end up selling fewer games than the PS3 or the 360. That's the danger of selling your console to a very, very casual set of gamers who might never feel the need to buy another game for their console after they've found one they enjoy diddling with.

Re:Wiiiii!

[yanos]

I'm not so sure about the effect of FF will have on PS3. Sure, it will sell alot of hardware for sony, but I remember square annoncing that there will be multiple versions of FF13 for nearly all platforms. The main or 'real' FF13 is still exclusive to the PS3, but if you also have multiple spin off on the wii, xbox and even ds (if I remember well), the effect it will have on sony hardware sale will not be as important as in the past generation, IMO.

There is still Metal Gear solid though...

Re:Wiiiii!

[orclevegam]

Wii players are less likely to want Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty 4. (Oh look, another military FPS! Who would have thought?) So stop trying to sell them the same games you've been selling teenage boys, and start doing some market research. Make games that are compelling to the casual market, and you will win.

Actually that's not even entirely true. One of my favorite games so far has been Metroid Prime 3, which is arguably yet another FPS. The big difference however is that it isn't a retooled and hastily assembled port of some existing FPS, but rather one that was built from the ground up to work well with the control scheme of the Wii. Customers want a game that has a decent design, but more importantly one that respects and understands the controls the Wii can provide. As a counter example look at Lair for the PS3. By all accounts the games motion controls were slapped on last minute at the insistence of Sony and ruined an otherwise promising game. Almost all the reviews said the same thing, the story was decent, the game play premise was also passable, but the game suffered from some moderate lag at times, and worst of all the motion controls you were forced to use were terrible. Similarly I bought redsteel when I picked up my Wii, and although the game was at best mediocre in concept, it faired much worse in the controls. After the 10th time getting killed because my character decided to stop and spinning around while staring at the sky I just quit playing that game and haven't touched it since.

Re:Wiiiii!

[trdrstv]

the race for console dominance is still anyone's to win

I disagree.

Why is this modded Troll? Since the Wii has sold the most systems worldwide in this generation (IE: more than the PS3 and 360), and it continues to outsell their competitors by a considerable margin every month (they were only slightly beat out during the Halo 3 launch) wouldn't it be appropriate to say the race is "Nintendo's to lose" ?

Re:Wiiiii!

[stoolpigeon]

I have quite a few friends who, like me, have young kids and haven't bought a console for quite a while, and they now have a wii. Their kids will keep them buying games. If game sales are soft now, it's not because wii owners are too 'casual' to want new games - it's because the game makers completely missed the boat on this platform and are still catching up.
 
It is still hard to find a wii at stores. They are still going for way above retail at amazon. And that's not bundles. I don't think with a user base as large as they'll have - I don't think selling software is going to be a huge issue. On top of that - they make money off the console right from the get go.

Re:Wiiiii!

[ByOhTek]

Interesting. Admittedly a lot of Wii user are not hardcore gamers (but have many games targetting them, that they do buy), but there are a lot of gamers that buy Wiis also. Do you have numbers to back up your statement that most aren't gamers?

(I can think of more gamers I know that have Wiis than have and/or want PS3s, and even more than want Wiis than those that want 360s/PS3s combined.

I know a few non-gamers that want Wiis, none that want PS3s, and only a couple that want 360s.

Re:Wiiiii!

[orclevegam]

Not entirely certain about the Wii, but I know the DS version is based on the Crystal Chronicles FF universe as opposed to the more traditional FF games. Some people hated Crystal Chronicles, but I and several of my friends really enjoyed it, so I'm looking forward to the new versions for the Wii and DS (I know there's a Wii version of it planned, but not sure if any of the more traditional FF games such as XIII will be released for it).

Re:Wiiiii!

[GreyyGuy]

Two different games, but people are still playing the original Super Mario Brothers games that are nearly 20 years old. Because they are fun. Do you see people playing Halo 3 in 20 years?

That is what makes a better game.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Pojut]

No, that is what makes a longer lasting game...case in point, people still love Grease...does that mean it is a better movie than Children of Men?

Exactly. You can't make that comparison.

Re:Wiiiii!

[networkBoy]

I'm in that last boat.
I generally am not a gamer, but I love Halo. I bought a 360 the other day just to play Halo3. $450 for a fscking video game... Geeze. On the bright side, I still don't have to consider more RAM, or the latest top end video card for my PC because I don't need it to support games there, so I suppose it's a wash.
-nB

Re:Wiiiii!

[absoluteflatness]

Nintendo is in a very good position right now, but if you ask me, they already need to be looking to the next console/upgrade. Both Sony and Microsoft are looking to make this console generation a long one, and consumers will probably expect it with the kind of investment they made in a console. Nintendo, however, is in a position where they could reasonably offer some kind of incremental upgrade to the Wii in a few years (not to mention adding say, colors and DVD support). A backwards-compatible Wii2 could create an interesting situation, where the "pick up and play" casual games could be released for the Wii, while the more powerful Wii2 could court cross-platform titles and harder-core gamers. Such a situation is probably just a pipe dream, though (I'm not sure if developers would stay with the old console, even if graphics were the only main difference, and especially the casual gamers could feel betrayed by the release of a Wii "upgrade").

The other strong feeling I have about Nintendo is that they need to take another look at how they're going to support online gaming. It hasn't been too much of an issue yet, mostly because Nintendo seems mostly uninterested in online play, but the "friend code" system seems to me to be unnecessarily unwieldy. I'm somewhat at a loss as to what "security" an annoying alphanumeric code provides you above a "name" you choose yourself. You could still require two-way approval for adding to any friend lists or the like. I presume that in this case, the appearance of family-friendliness is more important to Nintendo than convenience. Then again, Nintendo's now behind by about two generations on any serious online play, and they seem to be doing all right regardless, so maybe it's just a personal issue for me.

Re:Wiiiii!

[mlk]

Very true, it did grow quite a bit. From what I have seen this growth has mostly stopped and has been at the expense of the PSP, GBA, PC and PS2. The 360 has remained strong and the PS3 has got what was left from the PS2 space after the Wii had its fill.

Re:Wiiiii!

[RoverDaddy]

Just noticed this myself the other day. I was in *cough* Walmart *cough* I believe, looking at the usual single display case of Wii games, when I suddenly realized that the next case over was also -entirely full- of Wii games. The shelf space and selection has definitely gone up.

Re:Wiiiii!

[SethraLavode]

Most of the people I've talked to who hated Crystal Chronicles never actually played it, and hated it based on the multiplayer setup and the fact that it was more action-driven. I enjoyed it a lot, but I do have to agree that it is tricky to get the scheduling down for multiplayer. I really hope Square does online for the Wii incarnation.

It looks like Wii will be getting at least two Crystal Chronicles titles, one standard and one WiiWare. From what I've read, it also looks like they may be trying to make the CC games all part of the same unified world, similar to Ivalice. In any case, Square seems to be more interested in expanding the mainline FF titles going forward, so there will probably be a Wii game as part of the FF14 "franchise".

Re:Wiiiii!

[Dragon of the Pants]

if Wii owners don't keep buying games, did Nintendo really win? Um, yes? Nintendo makes fucktons of money from hardware alone.

Also, Final Fantasy is likely to sell a lot of Playstations Many FF fans are in the same category of rabid loyalty as Halo fans, and they'll shell out the green just to play the next one. Except the Wii is still winning, even after Halo 3 came out and the 360 had a year head-start. So I don't know exactly how that helps.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Mr_Silver]

It would be very possible. I got a wii about 2 months ago and I've bought a single wii game since then. I want to buy more, I eagerly scan the videogame store shelf every week, but the games tend to be underwhelming at best.

Count yourself lucky you have a Wii, I can't buy one in the UK for love nor money. The shops in London all get small batches which sell out on the day they come in.

For games, check out the Wii section of Metacritic. If you stick with only the green rated games, you're looking at Super Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Resident Evil 4, Metroid and Zack & Wiki as 5 to start off with.

Re:Wiiiii!

[tilandal]

People still Like Beethoven, does that make him a better artist then Justin Timberlake? I contend it does.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "front and centre" you mean "smaller than and cowering behind the X-Box section". Not the 360, the _X-Box_.

I don't see why anyone cares. Nintendo makes a profit whether the attach rate is good or bad. They aren't operating in the same market as everyone else. Mario Galaxy's sales in Japan have been "disappointing" compared to the Wii sales themselves, but that was entirely predictable - there are only a certain number of traditional Nintendo Fan-boys in the world and only a small number of the new "casual" fan base will be interested in Mario Galaxy at all. Many of them won't even be able to work out from the title wtf it is. It's incredibly telling that Mario Party sold better.

In a way you have to separate the Wii sales into "new market" and "old market". In the former it's the only competitor (this generation - the PS2 is taking a good run at it) and so it's winning. Hard. In the old market it's not nearly so clear. I think publishers that produce old market titles on the Wii have to prepare for their sales to be disappointing compared to the number of deployed consoles because a very large proportion of those systems are owned by "non-gamers". The danger is that this could become a self-perpetuating problem where publishers cease releasing those games in favour of the mini-game drivel that's being shovelled out at the moment, because it sells in the new market.

Re:Wiiiii!

[plague3106]

Um, I'm a gamer, and I haven't had a console since the SNES. My wife got me the Wii last March, and I've been playing it almost everyday. I have seven or so Wii games, and then five or some GameCube games (the Resident Evil series). Except for Zelda, I haven't purchased a single Nintendo game. I'm simply waiting for the third party developers to release games. That said, Tomb Raider just came out and I plan to pick that up, and I may pick up RE: UC. I'm currently having fun with MK: A though, but I'll certainly be getting more good games. I may even rent Manhunt2 to see if its any good.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Pojut]

Some people still like Hitler...does that make him better than Stalin?

Re:Wiiiii!

[king-manic]

But why would Wii owners stop buying games? Because they are different people from those who traditionally bought consoles. I have bought about $15,000 in games, consoles, and accessories in the last 5 years. My sister who bought a wii and GF who wanted me to get a wii have yet to get another game aside from wii sports.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Ang31us]

I agree that for you and me the friend code idea sucks ass, but I think I see where Nintendo is coming from.

Historically, Nintendo has marketed their systems to kids (including me; I'm just a big 30-year old kid). Think about all of the trouble that MySpace, Facebook, and others get from the media and government when a child predator gets his hands on a minor. My sense is that Nintendo would prefer to avoid even 1 story about a pedophile using the Wii to prey on children, even if it means not treating the rest of us as adults.

Re:Wiiiii!

[king-manic]

I'm not so sure about the effect of FF will have on PS3. Sure, it will sell alot of hardware for sony, but I remember square annoncing that there will be multiple versions of FF13 for nearly all platforms. The main or 'real' FF13 is still exclusive to the PS3, but if you also have multiple spin off on the wii, xbox and even ds (if I remember well), the effect it will have on sony hardware sale will not be as important as in the past generation, IMO.

There is still Metal Gear solid though.../quote>

Ever play any of the mainline spin offs of FF (FFX-2).. yeah.... I doubt that has any impact. People buy the mainline. Spin offs cash in but aren't the same.

Re:Wiiiii!

[anti-human 1]

Ha!

I dropped $450 on a Macintosh G3 tower (400 mhz) years back mainly to play Escape Velocity. Of course, I've OC'd it to 450 mhz, and installed OS X on it. At the time it was the most ridiculous purchase for a single game I've ever made. Its still the most current Mac I own (until Xmas ;).

Re:Wiiiii!

[Zelos]

That's certainly not true in my experience (Norwich&London, England). Wii Kiosks are prominently placed in 2 local GAME shops, along with lots of space given over to Wii games.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Altus]

From what I understand (and I could be mistaken) Nintendo actually makes money on the Wii hardware. So yea, they probably make out pretty well regardless.

If more companies would start making good games for the huge Nintendo install base I think you would see more games being purchased. I think there is a lot of money to be made on the Wii both in traditional games and in cheaper, smaller games. I'm a big fan of Wii sports but I would probably pay 20-30 bucks each for a more fully fleshed out version of each sport. They wouldn't have to be huge games (though golf and baseball are probably better served by the big name EA games) AMF bowling comes outs soon and for 20 bucks I might just pick it up. I'm looking forward to a real baseball game on the Wii as well if it is done well.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Ang31us]

Pojut, I really do enjoy your posts in general and I see that you're trying to make your point, but I'll tell you that this one stings...quite a bit. The truth hurts sometimes, but damn!

Re:Wiiiii!

[brkello]

Using your qualifications, Nintendo won with the Gamecube as well since it was always profitable. Really, the market can support 3 winners. A loser is going to be someone who is forced out of the market. All 3 look strong enough to last another round after this one. Nintendo is moving consoles. The 360 is moving games. The PS3 has a bit to catch up but has superior hardware. Hopefully at some point I will own all 3 (but not until prices drop).

Re:Wiiiii!

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I'm a gamer

s/mer/y/

Re:Wiiiii!

[absoluteflatness]

Part of me thinks that if parents are really so worried about children's access to the internet like that, then there should just be no E-rated games that have online support (as fun as Mario Kart DS is). I don't quite understand the fervor over this. To date myself (as fairly recent), I was playing games on Battle.net when I was a kid, and I don't remember any public outcry against it. Same for Xbox Live.

Are stupid stories like Nintendo DS predators or the "Playstation Pornable" just artifacts of recent times? I suspect desire to stay out of the news motivates the lack of multiplayer in some Nintendo games. Why isn't there, for example, multiplayer (even local) support anywhere in the Metroid Prime series? Even something of mediocre quality where powerups for Samus are scattered around a map seems like it would be pretty trivial to throw together. Aside from their franchises specifically made for multiplayer (I'm looking at you, Super Smash Bros., Mario Party and Mario Kart), multiplay seems to be mostly ignored in the house of Nintendo.

Argh, whatever. I blame the sensationalist media and so forth.

Re:Wiiiii!

[GreyyGuy]

Hmm... let's see.

Grease: movie adoptation of a musical that inspired multiple movies and stage revivals over decades, has sold strong for decades in multiple video and audio formats, nominated for multiple awards including an Oscar. According to IMDB, cost approximately $6M. Grossed $181M in the US for the 20th anniversary re-release, with $93M in rentals.

Children of Men: a movie adoptation of a book. No sequels to the book or movie. Nominated for many more awards (though in the interest of fairness, there are many, many more award organizations in 2006 than there were in 1978, and even more categories of Oscars), and won some of them. According to IMDB, cost $76M. Grossed $36M in the US. No rental figures.

Empirically, Children of Men wins on the number of nominations and awards, but Grease wins every other aspect. And the fact that more people have enjoyed Grease would seem to point to that being the more enjoyable film. I realize that opens the argument to how to define "better" but then that starts to get very nitpicky. No one would argue that the direction or visuals for Grease were better then Children of Men, or that Grease had a deeper story. But at the same time no one would argue that Children of Men has had the same timeless, wide-ranging appeal of Grease.

You gave an excellent example, but unfortunately it argues against your point. Both Halo and Children of Men are excellent examples of their genre. But compared to the wider audience of all the genres they are relatively niche examples. Grease and Mario are examples that have enjoyed far more success, despite their relative simplicity.

Re:Wiiiii!

[king-manic]

Using your qualifications, Nintendo won with the Gamecube as well since it was always profitable. Really, the market can support 3 winners. A loser is going to be someone who is forced out of the market. All 3 look strong enough to last another round after this one. Nintendo is moving consoles. The 360 is moving games. The PS3 has a bit to catch up but has superior hardware. Hopefully at some point I will own all 3 (but not until prices drop). I'd really like to see a three way horse race. Consumers win with competition and we have a pretty fierce one right now. It'll mean cheaper systems and hopefully better quality systems. I have 2 of the 3 (PS3, Wii). I may pick up a 360 for mass effect. Right now each side seems to specialize in different games. I enjoy this and hope they keep it up.

Re:Wiiiii!

[C0rinthian]

Possibly, because of Forge and Multiplayer.

Hell, people still play counterstrike. It's not that unlikely that Halo will last forever.

Re:Wiiiii!

[king-manic]

People still Like Beethoven, does that make him a better artist then Justin Timberlake? I contend it does. More people are into Timberlake then Beethoven. Does that mean anything? I think Pachabels Cannons is the most perfect song in all existence but sometimes I need to put on some NIN. They're different beasts, both have qualities and values and while we may not play Closer 500 years from now it is still a good song. Cannons and Closer both capture a portion of what it is to be human. Even the syrupy love songs by bland generic pop stars have some value.

The thing about people playing Super Mario, it's nostalgia. My little brother can't get into it Super Mario 1 because it lacks a lot of the things he's used to. Mario 3 he might play but Counter strike wins his attention more often then anything else. I play FF1 once in a while and in truth compared to whats out today it was a very frustrating game. I play A Street fighter II often but really it's not as well designed as SFIII. They're all classic games but our replay of it is motivated by many factors, other then the quality of the game.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Ang31us]

Yes, definitely -- sensationalist media is to blame...but let's not let the pedophiles off-the-hook either. Ever heard the saying "if this prevents just one (insert tragedy here), it was worth it." I can see American conservatives not buying a Wii over just one of these stories, even though it hurts the rest of us "normal" (I use the term loosely ;-) )people.

Battle.net is a great example of one of the first built-in multiplayer game systems on the Internet...as I recall Diablo was the first game that featured it and I played it to death as well. Great times for the first two weeks, until the hackers blew its doors off.

I have to admit that Microsoft has done a great job with XBL, though I despise them for their "gold" vs. "silver" and "pay" vs. "free" distinction. Does battle.net not do most of those things (except voice chat over 56K modems) on the PC?

I don't see Nintendo (or any good developer) doing anything mediocre with one of their franchise series (e.g. Metroid)...if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Mario Kart for the Wii is going to feature online play, right? Madden 2008 supports online play on the Wii, as does Mario Strikers (soccer) on the Wii. Have you checked out Strikers? It's awesome as a single player game, with friends, and as an online game. The good online players are such masters of the game that they manage to score goals in ways that the original makers never even intended...it really makes you change your defensive strategy.

Re:Wiiiii!

[orclevegam]

Using your qualifications, Nintendo won with the Gamecube as well since it was always profitable. Really, the market can support 3 winners. A loser is going to be someone who is forced out of the market. All 3 look strong enough to last another round after this one. I think you're talking about the difference between the battle and the war. Nintendo is looking to be the winner of this round, with Microsoft and Sony fighting over second and third place. Of course things may very well reverse with the next generation of consoles, after all Nintendo was a distant third in the previous generation with Sony the undisputed champion. By your criteria no companies besides Sega and Atari have ever lost (and maybe not even then, Sega is still in business and making games, just not hardware).

Re:Wiiiii!

[edwdig]

Why isn't there, for example, multiplayer (even local) support anywhere in the Metroid Prime series? Even something of mediocre quality where powerups for Samus are scattered around a map seems like it would be pretty trivial to throw together.

They did that in Metroid Prime 2, largely due to the rather vocal "It's an FPS and I won't play an FPS without multiplayer" crowd. The people that used lack of multiplayer as their excuse for not playing still didn't like the game, as the single player nothing like an FPS, and they didn't like the multiplayer because it was mediocre.

And the people that liked Metroid to begin with mostly just ignored the multiplayer mode.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Loosifur]

I don't know if I qualify as a hard-core gamer, whatever that is. I own a Cube, an Xbox, a PS2, a DS, a PC whose primary use is gaming, and I just got a Wii for my birthday a few months ago. I spend about $100 a month on games, maybe $750 on average for PC hardware. So that's where I'm coming from. I don't own any Halo t-shirts, though, so I'm not sure if I'd pass. That being said, I spend about three hours a day, more on weekends, playing video games. From this perspective, I gotta say the only console I was interested in was the Wii.

The way I saw it, and the way I still see it, all the other consoles are basically hamstrung PCs. Games aside, I could build a computer that did everything the PS3 does, hook up a controller to it, and have the exact same experience. The Wii, while not as beefy hardware-wise, has the whole control system going for it. So from my pseudo-hardcore perspective, I have the option of dropping several hundred dollars on a console and dropping several hundred dollars in to my computer to gain access to essentially two overlapping libraries of games (since, especially with the 360, many of the big games are available on PC), or spend a couple hundred on a console and several hundred on my computer and have access to two rather different libraries of games. Easy choice for me.

Now, Nintendo is grabbing up market share by selling to the casual gamer crowd with both the Wii and the DS. If you look at the ads for the Wii, they're basically saying to the consumer, "A console is a centerpiece in your entertainment center or living room. Buy a 360 or a PS3 and you'll have a rather expensive additional DVD player and have to hope that whichever one you buy is using the standard (HD or Blu-ray) that becomes dominant. And you'll need an HD tv to get the most out of it. And all the games are geared toward teenage boys and college students. Buy a Wii, on the other hand, and not only will you save money, but you can use it with the television you already have. You won't be able to play movies on it, but you probably don't need another DVD player. And, you can play games with everyone in your family. And furthermore, these games are physically active, so you won't feel bad about your kids playing them." It's working because any "hardcore" gamers who want the Wii already have it, and they're waiting for 3rd party developers to get on board, which they are, and to see more adult-oriented (read: violent) games to be released, which they also are, albeit slowly. They really needed the parents to get behind them. Even the price is geared toward reluctant parents and older adults in that it's not such an expensive commitment as a 360 or, god forbid, a PS3.

As a caveat, let me just say that as fanboish as that sounded, I personally like both of the other consoles, and if they were cheaper I'd probably pick them up. I'm just saying that, for my part, the Wii has the most bang for the buck, and I know that my girlfriend, based on fights we've had, definitely considers me a "hardcore" gamer.

Re:Wiiiii!

[theantipop]

I have, especially recently, found more good games to play than I have time to play them. Before that, I filled the (long) downtime between releases with the superb selection of Virtual Console games available. I have owned each Nintendo system aside from the Gamecube, but my tastes growing up are much different than they are now so I missed a few tried and true classics that the VC has given me an cheap and easy opportunity to catch up on. Until August, I would've understood the "no good games for the Wii" argument. These days, however, I think some people just aren't looking.

Re:Wiiiii!

[somersault]

Out of those I've only bought SPM and Mario Strikers, but Mario Strikers just seemed very poorly constructed. The menus took an age to load and I got the impression that someone just took a crappy game then came along and put Nintendo characters in it, maybe I'm wrong though. No doubt it would be fun to play on multiplayer, but I dont know if that will ever happen, my friends would be more likely to want to play the sports (and I wouldnt disagree)

Re:Wiiiii!

[Toonol]

I questioned that statement, also. I mean, this is far _less_ even than anybody would have imagined. This sales this generation will end with (1) Wii (2) 360 (3) PS3. The only real drama is whether the PS3 can scrape into 2nd place ahead of the 360.

Coupled with the fact that the Wii is more profitable than the other two consoles, it's a done deal. Nintendo's won this round.

Re:Wiiiii!

[naoursla]

But Nintendo makes money on each Wii console sold. Even if they don't sell more games, they still got their cash. If each buyer of the 360/PS3 purchased no more games after the console then MS/Sony would be in trouble.

Re:Wiiiii!

[superbus1929]

But why would Wii owners stop buying games?

Easy: the games suck.

No, seriously. The Wii is a gimmick system. Therefore, a few games are going to nail the gimmick, such as Metroid Prime, or Wii Sports. The rest are either bad ports of games on other systems that try to force the gimmick on you, or shitty "casual" games put out by people trying to crash the casual market, a-la 1983. The DS is in the same boat; a few winners, a shitload of losers, to the point where Electronic Gaming Monthly actually profiled the plethora of shitty games on the system.

Wii owners, for the most part, fall into three categories:

1) People that like Nintendo games, and wanted the big names like Mario. Usually, these are Smash Brothers fans.

2) People that wanted the latest craze. These people are going to destroy the system a lot more than bad third party support.

3) People like me that basically see a Gamecube with attachments. I'll be in this group soon.

Re:Wiiiii!

[moreati]

Try Amazon France, my parents got one from there quite easily. Similarly, people have posted about positive results ordering from Germany. The accute shortages appear to be UK only. Alex.

Re:Wiiiii!

[flitty]

I can't tell you how much I agree with you about having a "3 way horserace". I have the Wii60 combo, and the wii is great as a break/alternative to the "standard" game library of the 360. The 360 gets so much more playtime, but the Wii being as cheap as it is has probably (definately?) forced the 360 and PS3 to drop their prices as they did. I really enjoy the wii, and yeah, it's in the same developer "oh crap, we need to decide how to build games on this system" stage that the DS went through. The ideas are there, but it's such a paradigm shift that the industry is having a rough time adjusting, but when they finally catch their stride, the wii will be a wonderful system to own.

I see the ps3 as the xbox of the last generation. There will be excellent games on it eventually, and when the price comes down (yes, $399 is still too much for the 2-3 exclusives that are "must play", and no BC) it will be worth picking up for the "gems" of the system. However, the 360 is the current "ps2", with the most games (shovelware or otherwise) and the most choices for gametypes.

Keeping the "Power console!" vs. "middleground/most games" vs. "cheap but fun" competition that is occuring in the console world is a wonderful thing for gamers, and I hope that all 3 of the companies stick around. The flailing of the ps3 has forced sony to become more up and up in their thinking and the way they compete (by actually having to work for attention), the wii drives innovation in gameplay and price controls, and the xbox drives game development, and number of games available (indirectly through ps3/wii trying to catch up to the amount of games in the 360 library).

Re:Wiiiii!

[Altus]

Options would be nice. Why not have a built in generic matching system for the Wii. Something where you could go online and find friends. But you could also have a parental control that would over ride this and limit matching to people who you have traded friends codes with.

I would still use the codes, just for the ease of matching up with my actual friends online, but if I wanted to play a game online and none of my friends were around I might use a basic matching service.

Re:Wiiiii!

[milamber3]

I'm eagerly awaiting the Wii-fit and Duck hunt.

Re:Wiiiii!

[vimh42]

It's not much of a war. I used to be pretty anti-console. Now I have a DS (and plan to buy a second), Wii and 360 (Mass Effect has been ordered). As far as games go there are a few titles on each platform that I want to get. So at least as far as I'm concerned, Nintendo has managed to put out a few titles that keep me playing it. My biggest gripe is that the Wii is limited to 420p and that many of the games are designed at 420i And my big gripe for all the consoles is accessibility to independent developers. I would absolutely love to make games for the consoles. But the companies make it far to expensive a market to enter for somebody on a very slim budget. I think all of the consoles would benefit if they made developing for their consoles more accessible.

Re:Wiiiii!

[absoluteflatness]

Of course the game in the series I skipped puts the lie to my statement, that's what I get for not being thorough.

Sounds like it was pretty much the multiplayer I described, and was, as you said, mostly ignored. I suppose right now I'm just itching for a more FPS-y game with Prime 3's excellent control scheme. I'm tired of being whooped up on due to my lack of analog stick skills.

Re:Wiiiii!

[king-manic]

It's not much of a war. I used to be pretty anti-console. Now I have a DS (and plan to buy a second), Wii and 360 (Mass Effect has been ordered). As far as games go there are a few titles on each platform that I want to get. So at least as far as I'm concerned, Nintendo has managed to put out a few titles that keep me playing it. My biggest gripe is that the Wii is limited to 420p and that many of the games are designed at 420i And my big gripe for all the consoles is accessibility to independent developers. I would absolutely love to make games for the consoles. But the companies make it far to expensive a market to enter for somebody on a very slim budget. I think all of the consoles would benefit if they made developing for their consoles more accessible. 360's XNA and a lot of indie content on PSN. They both address these issues. Gems like flow, Everyday shooter, Geometry wars etc.. are all semi-indie hits.

Re:Wiiiii!

[G Fab]

Those wii games are called fantastic above, but they only seem fantastic in comparison to other wii games. My kid has a wii, and I play Zelda because Ocarina was such a great game. This Zelda is only slightly more advanced and is missing so many sidequests. It's not a finsihed game. Metroid would look bad on my ps2.

And that's not the most valid criticism, since I'm overlooking the controller. If you love that controller it makes up for the games. But the games themselves are just not very good. I believe that if Zelda and Metroid 3 were PS3 games, the Sony haters would rightfully roast Sony for such poor offerings.

The wii is a novel idea but it's all about the games. The 360 and the PS2 are the best places to find games. The PS3 is flopping horribly in this department for reasons I cannot fathom. The wii is neat and well hyped, like the ipodm and describing those games as fantastic really proves my point.

Re:Wiiiii!

[antek9]

Right on spot there. No-one buys the Wii over here in Germany, the shelves are always full, whenever I take a look. Seems like Nintendo keeps miscalculating their shipments. Or maybe they know something we don't, then again, what do I know?

Re:Wiiiii!

[JebusIsLord]

It's a troll, because it brings absolutely nothing to the discussion, but is designed to provoke responses. I disagree too, but will provide an actual ARGUMENT: The Wii is clearly going to sell the most consoles, because it has the mass-market mindshare. The north american GAMERS are going to buy the 360 (unless Sony smartens up), and Japanese gamers are going to go PS3 (unless Sony drops the ball even harder).

I think 3rd party publishers are quickly learning that they need to market to gamers, because they're the ones who buy games (rather than trendy appliances) so their money will be made on the 360/PS3.

I don't expect any of them to fold.

Re:Wiiiii!

[DeepZenPill]

I own a Cube, an Xbox, a PS2, a DS, a PC whose primary use is gaming, and I just got a Wii for my birthday a few months ago. I spend about $100 a month on games, maybe $750 on average for PC hardware... I spend about three hours a day, more on weekends, playing video games.

Yeah I'd call you a hardcore gamer.

Re:Wiiiii!

[gravis777]

I think we are kinda not understanding the console wars. This is NOT the same thing as the HD war, whereas there will be a winner and a looser. Even if Sony comes in third in console sales, if they sale enough (what they have sold is nothing to be ashamed about, its actually quite good for a console thats only a year old, its just not selling AS WELL IN THE US as the other two. I wish I had a site to point to, but Sony is actually doing quite well in Japan) there will be games and exclusives. This is why I hate the phrase "console wars" as I think its clear from history that not coming in first does not mean that you will fail. Look at the Sega Genesis. While not selling as good as the Super Nintendo, that does not mean the Genesis was a failure. The PSP has a 25% market share, that does not mean its a failure. Shoot, nowadays I see way more people with PSPs than DSs.

That does not mean that there haven't been failures in the gaming market. I think we can point to Colecovision, Intelevision, the Atari 7800, Sega 32x, Sega CD, Sega Saturn, and 3DO as being failures. IMHO, Sega did not fail at first from not having top market sales or developers, Sega failed because they kept releasing new systems and it scared people from buying new systems. However, according to wikipedia, the Saturn did extreamely well in Japan, outselling both the Playstation and the N64.

According to this article on Macworld (btw, Happy Birthday PS3), the console has over 200 games available for it (although I swear that I have not seen that many games), but if that is true, 200 games in a year, over 5 million units sold in under a year, and a major push for the BluRay market, I would not say that the PS3 was a failure, nor do I expect it to die, but rather come stronger over the coming year.

Re:Wiiiii!

[soupforare]

They've probably already failed, I see giant friend code sharing threads on forums, *chans, foo, every time a new game comes out. Why each game has a seperate code, I wish I knew D:

Re:Wiiiii!

[Ang31us]

Parental controls on any technology are simply not an effective means to prevent children from doing something. The kids know more about the locking and un-locking technology than the parents...this is changing over time as our generation becomes parents, but our generation is barely entering the point where they're getting married and starting to think of having kids.

Re:Wiiiii!

[orclevegam]

The issue with game systems is they require a certain amount of momentum. In order to attract developers they need to have a large install base and an active player community. No matter what you make as far as game systems you'll always sell some of them, but your sells will quickly fall off based on the developer uptake and the perceived position of your product in the market place by the masses. In the "console wars" there are three distinct ways to fail. In the first and worst way, you can fail as Sega did, which is to be forced out of hardware production entirely. In the second way your sales can dwindle to almost nothing long before you were planning on releasing the next generation of your product. In the last and least damaging way you can be relegated to a tertiary position relative to the other competitors, which means you may still be profitable, but you'll always be the also ran that everyone picks up just on the principle of completing their collection of systems. Right now Sony is fighting to avoid that final category of failure. In order to be in the other two you need to continually screw up not just one generation, but several generations of product. Look at the nGage, doomed from the start. It's had two releases, and both were a joke. Sure some people bought them, but how many games did you see? Maybe a few dozen tops. The developers knew a stillborn system when they saw it. The original launch of the nGage was the second class of failure. The second launch I'm confident qualifies as the first class, we'll not be seeing anymore from nGage.

What's particularly interesting is that the Gamecube was a failure of the third type in the last generation. The developers expecting more of the same initially shunned it and were left scrambling to catch up when it rocketed to the top, where as the PS3, by all accounts the expected top system this round is fighting not to be a type 3 failure. I don't think they're in danger of a type 2 failure of course, but it could still happen, as a type 2 failure has a lot more to do with third party developers and customers than it does the company making the product (well, ultimately it's their fault, but by the time they realize they have a problem it's usually too late as the system has already shipped).

Re:Wiiiii!

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing advancing, generation by generation, is graphics and eyecandy.

AI and physics are as unrealistic as they've always been. The consumers are the losers this generation.

Re:Wiiiii!

[nomadic]

For games, check out the Wii section of Metacritic. If you stick with only the green rated games, you're looking at Super Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Resident Evil 4, Metroid and Zack & Wiki as 5 to start off with.

I've just never been a big fan of the "cute" game thing, so no Mario or Zack & Wik (I like atmosphere). I don't like FPSes on consoles, and I don't go for survival horror (yes, I'm picky). So that leaves me stuck with Zelda, which is the one game I did get (and I like it a lot). I'd like it if developers would a) make more 3rd person adventure/RPGs, and b) not all jump on the wiimote bandwagon; just because a game can use the motion sensor doesn't mean it necessarily should.

Re:Wiiiii!

[AvitarX]

Expect it to be abouther few months before the real good non-wiimote games start coming (or mildly using it).

When did NSMB come out? It used 2 screens and touch, but both were expendable, I would expect to see games that use the wiimote because it is comfortable (I love beiong able to keep my arms apart), maybe some other minor uses, but primarily use it like a traditional controller (if 5 easy access buttons, (A, B, C, Z, Down), and 3 less easy (Left, Right. Up) is enough buttons for the game.

Re:Wiiiii!

[scot4875]

The PS3 is flopping horribly in this department for reasons I cannot fathom.

I think this statement alone sheds light on your entire misguided post.

--Jeremy

Re:Wiiiii!

[KDR_11k]

FFCC wasn't much fun in singleplayer because of the repetition (not just the levels, many enemies require fighting in patterns and those patterns get repetitive) and because it had its complexity in the wrong spots (crafting, anyone?). I expect they have learned from this though and the next bunch of games won't have these issues.

Re:Wiiiii!

[TheRaven64]

Games aside, I could build a computer that did everything the PS3 does, hook up a controller to it, and have the exact same experience. The Wii, while not as beefy hardware-wise, has the whole control system going for it You know, exactly the same is true of the Wii. The controllers are Bluetooth devices and someone wrote a Mac driver for the almost immediately after the launch. The only difference is the games - there are lots of games for the Wii that use the controller, but almost none for the Mac. Why? Because every Wii comes with the controller, while no Macs do.

Re:Wiiiii!

[KDR_11k]

Must be your specific store, here all stores have already dissolved their XBox sections and only keep the 360. The Wii gets at least as much as the 360, in some places more.

Re:Wiiiii!

[nomadic]

Expect it to be abouther few months before the real good non-wiimote games start coming (or mildly using it).

I'm just concerned the developers will get into this groupthink trap where every game they make has to use the wiimote in a nontraditional controller way. Oh well.

I'm still kind of annoyed I had to buy a separate gamecube controller to play gamecube games.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Ang31us]

Dude, your girlfriend is absolutely right. You're HARDCORE to the bone and I'll tell you why. There are people who know, people who think they know, and people who don't know shit. Clearly, you KNOW what you're talking about when it comes to gaming.

It's not about how many games you buy or play. It's about buying the GOOD games and not buying the shovelware that gets peddled as product for the masses. I think you know you're hardcore too on the down low ;-) .

Re:Wiiiii!

[davester666]

Well, according to Eidos [which just happens to make only two Wii games], if people don't buy games for the Wii, then developers will stop making games for it:

http://www.cubed3.com/news/9004/2/Eidos:_Wii_May_Lose_Support_in_2008

Another case of the blindingly obvious, combined with implied FUD [implying that the people aren't buying games for it and that developers will stop developing for it soon].

Re:Wiiiii!

[buffer-overflowed]

Your loss. Zack and Wiki is a fantastic adventure/puzzler/platformer hybrid. There hasn't been anything like it released in over a decade.

Is it a little cutsey/cartoony? Yea, but so were all the Lucasarts games you philistine.

Re:Wiiiii!

[buffer-overflowed]

I own a 360, a PS2, a gaming PC, and a Wii. I own 30 Gamecube Games, 70 PS2 games, 7 360 games, more PC games than I care to count, and about 20 Wii Games. This isn't counting VC purchase, live purchases, PS1 titles, or the older consoles and titles I own.

I spend about $200 a month on video games and movies.

I know a lot of other people in a similar boat who own and are happy with their Wii. The only time I encounter the sentiment expressed by you is on the internet, with nothing ever backing it up. Yay for anecdotes.

Re:Wiiiii!

[dank zappingly]

I really don't buy that Wii owners aren't hardcore gamers. When you factor in the amount of money it usually costs to buy a Wii in a bundle, or online, or the effort that it takes to get one(lining up at stores before they open) these people must be pretty serious about their games.

Re:Wiiiii!

[bicho]

wii play has something akind to duck-hunt
I never played but a tiny bit of duck-hunt, but it looks like a minigame that is included in wii-play.
(you shool against ballons, discs, bullseyes, matrtians and , yes, even passerby ducks

Re:Wiiiii!

[G Fab]

The PS3 is flopping in getting good games to the market. You didn't understand what I meant?

PS3 is selling pretty much as well as the wii is (except in the states, where wise companies are not marketing heavily until the dollar is worth more), but there aren't any good games for the PS3. So many great games like home and MGS4 and GT5 have not been brought to market.

That's obviously what I meant. Now I'm not at all surprised that Nintendo fans modded me a troll instead of explaining that they disagree with me. Nothing I said was biased or provocative, but some people really really really love nintendo too much to admit that the games on the Wii are actually not good, and probably inferior to those ont he PS3 and certainly far worse than what the 360 offers.

Nintendo is like Apple: there's an element of fans that aren't sensible and willing to accept criticism. No big deal.

But my post wasn't misguided. Your inability to see that I was criticizing Sony is telling. That's right, there are people who think the Wii is lame and Sony is crazy for not getting enough great games out yet. Some people actually don't give a crap which console fares better. You have to twist my comment to a ridiculous degree to assure yourself that I am a Sony fanboy, because it's just not possible to think Wii games are primitive and boring otherwise.

Hey, you're free to think that if you like. I guarantee you that Nintendo agrees with me and is working hard to make some decent games to fix this huge problem with their system.

Re:Wiiiii!

[aichpvee]

Zack & Wiki

Re:Wiiiii!

[aichpvee]

Dude, Mario Strikers is crazy fun multiplayer. If you were expecting an actual sports game you'd probably be disappointed, but as a multiplayer action game with a sports theme it's pretty damn fun. Your critique would fit much better if applied to the GameCube original, though.

Re:Wiiiii!

[cornface]

That is some exciting anecdotal evidence you have there, by jove!

I know three people with a Wii. They all have 360's. None of them every play the Wii. Why? Because there are very few third party games that are actually good. Maybe that will change with time. It is too early to say. But there is a lot of shovelware with terrible gameplay AND terrible graphics piling up on the Wii...

Re:Wiiiii!

[aichpvee]

I've just never been a big fan of the "cute" game thing, so no Mario or Zack & Wik (I like atmosphere).

You've got some strange ideas about the definition of atmosphere. How about you try the one in the dictionary?

An aesthetic quality or effect, especially a distinctive and pleasing one, associated with a particular place: a restaurant with an Old World atmosphere.

Mario Galaxy and Zack & Wiki both have these qualities in spades. Just because you have lame taste doesn't mean that they don't have "atmosphere."

Re:Wiiiii!

[aichpvee]

Distant third? Are you stupid? Nintendo and microsoft finished about even at 20m hardware units, only Nintendo made about $3 BILLION more in the process.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm... Zelda and Metroid are boring? Has this guy read all the reviews written by people who play video games for a living? And Metroid would look bad on a PS2? I don't even know how to respond to that... There's no denying that the Wii doesn't even come close to the graphical horse-power of the PS3 or XBox, but I don't even know how he can claim that it's worse than the PS2. And to claim that the PS3 is flopping horribly is just sheer ignorance. Admittedly it's not moving software like it's competitors, but it's life cycle is far from over. I understand that we're all entitled to our opinions (which is why I usually try to ignore fanboyism), but this is just ridiculous.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Lane.exe]

Hey, I like my Wii (Zelda and Metroid were awesome). But when I beat those two I lent it to my brother-in-law so he could play them and I could focus on my PS3 and 360 games... I think I enjoyed "Heavenly Sword" as much as I've enjoyed a title in the past two years. I like the PS3's controller more than I like the 360s, though I typically buy games for the 360 if I have a choice. For instance, next week I've got Mass Effect (drool) coming out, and I plan on sequestering myself with my 360 for hours on end, to the detriment of social life and school, because it's m-fing Bioware.

But I'll do the same thing when Final Fantasy XIII comes out, because I'm absolutely obsessed with Final Fantasy games.

I'd buy more Wii games if any came out that really interested me. I plan on getting the new Fire Emblem game, but I don't see many others in the pipe that I like, because I mainly like strategy, RPG and SF action-adventure games. The Wii has plenty of fun games, but they're just not games that interest me over some of the titles coming out for the 360 or PS3.

Re:Wiiiii!

[KDR_11k]

You know that the DS got over that some time ago?

Re:Wiiiii!

[superbus1929]

No I didn't.

Re:Wiiiii!

[KDR_11k]

What makes you think that gamers don't buy the Wii?

Re:Wiiiii!

[KDR_11k]

Pointing out a few horrible games doesn't prove anything, I could find you three horrible games for any platform but that doesn't mean there aren't better games.

Re:Wiiiii!

[superbus1929]

Look, as I received this comment notification, I was playing Contra 4. And I'm picking up a Wii eventually mainly for Galaxy, Fire Emblem, the Virtual Console and the fact that it's compatible with my Gamecube games. So the general point you're making, I'm down with that.

MY general point: the Nintendo "gimmick" systems gets a higher volume of shit-to-good than any other console.

Re:Wiiiii!

[Chess_the_cat]

The Wii would be worth it if they stopped making any physical titles for it. The Virtual Console makes the Wii worth it at twice the price. And I'm sure the overhead is very low for Nintendo.

Re:Wiiiii!

[JebusIsLord]

The gamer's games aren't selling. Metroid 3 has done poorly, and Mario Galaxy is doing poorly in Japan. The games that are selling well are party games, even the shitty ones.

I'm concerned developers are just going to give up trying, after loosing money on a few titles.

Re:Wiiiii!

[G Fab]

Like Apple, if you say ill of nintendo, you can predict hearing a lot of flack. That's just how some people are, I guess. Tell me, what's the best looking game on the PS2? FF12? GT4? MGS3? What is the best looking game on the wii? Is it really better than PS2 quality? I say it isn't. As every wii fan used to say, it's all about the games.

Also, how am I being a fanboy exactly? I probably like the 360 more than the other systems for having great games, but I don't think you could tell from my above comments, and I don't think my preference is strong. I provided arguments for my views. I got a lost of insults and moaning in response, but nobody has bothered to explain their argument that I'm wrong. Just internet bravado. No thinking required.

It's not clear why many wii games look worse than PS2 games (even the games that appear on both systems often look significantly better on the PS2), but that's just the facts. And the problems go much farther than content. Zelda was missing most of the normal sidequests and felt empty and extremely easy to finish. Games like Red Steel are farces, and often the controller is too twitchy for my tastes. And like I said above, if you have the taste that value the Wii's controller, it's worth the content shortage and lame graphics problems. But you shouldn't have to pay so steep a price as, it's clear that the wii is not getting well made games yet. I'm not really anti-wii so much as I am ready to see some good games instead of worship of the age old Mario and Zelda games. I get it, people like that stuff. But if these exact games had new characters and were on the PS3, people would admit most of this stuff is rubbish. With Zelda, you can't even pretend this is a next gen game... as it's a lastgen gamecube game with advanced controls. Nothing wrong with that, but it proves my point. Nintendo is using Gamecube quality games (which should look better than PS2 games but often do not) and adding motion control. The wii is set to get a ton of great games eventually, most say. So my complaints are the sorts of productive thoughts that you should be happy to hear. Whether you admit it or not, you wish the games looked a hell of a lot better than Metroid and you realize they can. If everyone pretends there's no problem, do you think the problem will be solved?

And of course the wii is getting good reviews... good reviews are pretty damn easy to get these days. The wii is novel, fun and very fashionable, like the iphone. It's good business to promote this system. But come on, man... weren't you disappointed with Metriod? I'm not comparing it with Resistance or Gears or anything like that, I'm comparing it with Red Faction and Halo 2. Hell, it reminds me of Quake on my Pentium 2. If you love that motion control, realize that this isn't in conflict with my assertion (which is obvious, not ridiculous).

And though I like my PS3 too, if you don't admit that Sony has badly dropped the ball over and over again with getting games out on time, then you're not paying attention. Warhawk was never finished and we got the tiny multiplayer section. MGS4 was supposed to be out a long time ago. Home as well. GT5 as well. As a PS3 owner, I find that annoying, and there's obviously a consistent problem... that could be described as fumbling. You call this ridiculous... is that your entire argument?

Re:Wiiiii!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've just never been a big fan of the "cute" game thing, so no Mario or Zack & Wik (I like atmosphere).

Read: Bleak, grey/brown, and full of bald military men.

Re:Wiiiii!

[IpalindromeI]

Guess what other system had a really high shit-to-good ratio? The PS2. That's because the most popular console is going to draw the most games, and most of those will be crap.

MY general point: the Nintendo "gimmick" systems gets a higher volume of shit-to-good than any other console.

Because they are more popular than the other consoles (or portables).

Re:Wiiiii!

[Anonymous Coward]

there will be a winner and a looser.

As opposed to a tighter? Unfortunately, the loser is you.

Re:Wiiiii!

[J-1000]

This huge market payed $250 for Wii Sports.

This is an excellent statement, and gets to the core of the whole Wii thing. Back in the day, parents paid hundreds of dollars to play Pac Man, or Breakout. And how many people are still addicted to Tetris? These are not easy games to make in the sense that they are not always easy to conceptualize, but like you said, they are terrifically easy to code.

One problem is that there is a proven mindset that if you trick up an existing product, making it glossier and adding features, it will sell almost as well as it did the first time around. This method has worked well enough in the past, and there are entire companies set up to do business this way. And why not? It works a lot of the time.

But "casual" games operate on slightly different principles:

1. They have to be eye-catching to nearly everyone, not just people familiar with games.
2. They have to make sense immediately.
3. They have to be easy enough for new players to enjoy, but challenging enough to keep veteran players playing.

It has been done many times in the past, but usually it's by one dude who just has a good idea. The problem is, that one dude (or group of dudes) may never have another idea as good as their first. From a studio perspective, that's not a solid bet at all. The suits would rather sell a sequel to the proven winner (and a lot of us ask for exactly that). But hopefully more suits are starting to realize that when the investment is so small, who cares about the odds?

Re:Wiiiii!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are wrong. The PS3 is selling about half as much as the Wii world-wide. For many months, the Wii-PS3 sales gap was 6-to-1 in Japan alone. The Wii supposedly surpassed Xbox360 in total units moved globally in August, whereas the PS3 is barely on pace with the Xbox's 2006 month-to-month sales records.

Re:Wiiiii!

[RavenMaster]

OMg! About the second part of your answer...At first I laughed but after giving it some consideration you're absoolutely right...It is indeed a magnet for people that have nothing to do with gaming in general.

In addition, one of the reasons i dont regret the 250 Euros i spent is the glance of any1 getting the Wiimote in their hands for the first time..Right away you see a childish smile that shows pure entertainment. Always fun!

Re:Wiiiii!

[donaldm]

There is no problem buying a Wii in Sydney Australia. In fact you can even get second hand ones in stores like EB's and Game although recently I have not seen that many second hand ones since it is getting close to Christmas.

Somehow?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what's so baffling about the Wii's continued success. They have games that people enjoy playing, and that the family can play together. Quantities are still limited, so it's got the appeal of being hard to get. And it's cheap enough that people don't have that same level of reluctance to purchase if they know they're primarily buying it for one or two games. Throw in the chance for people to buy a lot of the classic games that they grew up with.

Re:Somehow?

[Doctor_Jest]

It's more to do with the tipping point, actually. When does the Wii become "everyone who has one has one, and everyone who wanted one has one...", where naturally the curve will level off? I personally don't want one, but I don't mind if someone else does.. it's just not my bag. Still, with supply shortages plaguing Nintendo, I think some of the rise in demand stems partially from the "scarcity" perception... people who were sitting on the fence (new to gaming) might have thought it a "must buy" solely based on the lack of units in stock at any given retailer. And chances are, they know someone who has one and are getting non-stop anecdotal evidence that the Wii is the best thing since the toaster.

At some point we'll see the leveling off happen, but when and how long it will take to start dipping in sales is anybody's guess. Maybe then those who are trying to find one but have given up will be able to get their Wii. ;)

Re:Somehow?

[mdielmann]

Still, with supply shortages plaguing Nintendo... I think the only thing hampering Nintendo is the fact that they're selling about 1/3 more than their closest competitor on a regular basis. This isn't so much like a plague of locusts as it is a plague of bags of money raining down on you. I would personally like to experience this plague Nintendo is suffering from, and I don't doubt that Sony would love to have the same problem with their PS3s.

Re:Somehow?

[Doctor_Jest]

It works great initially, but if you consistently cannot meet demand, I think the perception (investor and possibly laymen) will be that you're either holding back some units to create "buzz", or you really can't handle the demand and that will eventually negatively impact things going forward.

They can meet the DS demand shortly after they sold out (different product, I know) and for the most part, they've been good about meeting demands in the past (after inital shortages)... the Wii having shortages into 2008 means they _could_ sell more, but they won't, because they can't get enough in stores...

You're right.. it's like a golden goose, but Nintendo best be sure they don't shoot the goose. :)

Re:Somehow?

[mdielmann]

Well, according to this, Nintendo has apparently increased their production to 1.8M per month, from 1M per month last holiday season, and plans to hold those production numbers for a while into 2008. I think that's reasonable. Apparently no one knows how well the Wii is going to do, not even Nintendo. That sucks from the consumer's end, and probably isn't a comfortable position for Nintendo, either, but a glut on the market can be worse than a shortage (for both the company and the consumer).

Re:Somehow?

[Anonymous Coward]

The phrase "Tipping Point" stuck out at me, mostly because it was one of the books I had to read for one of my college courses that I enjoyed. In this case, it'd be interesting to figure out what the actual tipping point for the system is. It's enjoyed by both the casual and the hardcore, even if it's a secondary system. It's enjoying huge sales, to the point of being generally sold out a year after its release.

The big thing, and the one Nintendo preached early on, relates to 'Everyone has one'. The PS2 enjoyed heavy sales, to the tune of 100M units. I would postulate that the PS2 is more of a hardcore system than a casual system. For Nintendo, they have a huge, mostly-untapped market (The Blue Ocean strategy) in the casual arena for people who weren't gamers or were ex-gamers, in a console sense. They may lose some of the hardcore, but may gain some that didn't buy a GameCube last generation, just because they've got a product that's enjoyable. However, they have the casual market to buy their system, and are doing extremely well in it.

It's probably still early, being that it's only been a year, to declare a tipping point. However, Wii is enjoying word of mouth support from the casuals, with help from the various TV variety shows that report on it now and then. It's likely that, barring a sudden downturn in fortunes (anything can happen), we might see that tipping point in 2008. Being popular due to being scarce seems odd to say after a year and a half, especially if they're selling out AND selling more than their competitors.

Re:Somehow?

[Doctor_Jest]

And very true that a glut this early in the game (and this close to shopping frenzy season) would be bad for Nintendo in a PR sense, I think though having one or two left on the shelf at any given time would alleviate that quite a bit... having stacks high as mountains in Best Buy like the 360/PS3 do might be a really bad idea for Nintendo this Christmas in terms of mindset and achieving a bigger slice of the pie... Not that there isn't aeven a remote chance that they are going to have that problem, though...

Early on, I was under the tinfoil hat thinking Nintendo was artificially creating buzz by holding back units (I just don't trust corporations...heh), but after this long, I don't believe that to be the case, and with 1.8M per month, that's some SERIOUS cheddar for Nintendo, who got left out of the last gen's top spot by a deeply entrenched Sony lead. (And a few missteps w/r/t third party title capacity, I'd wager...) I think the PS2 choked the life out of the 2nd and 3rd place markets to a degree that it was unhealthy for competition (not that Sony would care...) I mean, it was a nice system and I own one... but when you're that far ahead, it seems that the other consoles get mostly scraps or first party stuff (in the case of the Gamecube.. which I also own and enjoy as well.)

This generation, the Wii's a different animal, and by the same token, not necessarily competing on the same field as the PS3/360. So in effect, the Wii's success isn't strangling off the hardcore market as much as I figured a console with that much in terms of units sold would...(it's still a footrace, but I think the hardcore consoles are holding up well, in spite of Sony's missteps and MS's QC problems.)

I may not want one (I've not seen the game I _really_ want to play on it yet... that doesn't mean there won't be one..) but I can appreciate the frustration of trying to find one (I did early on try to find one but gave up....) When things die down and things start to level off (2008 is Nintendo's magic forecast year, according to their spokesdrones)... I might try to pick one up... maybe they'll have a blue one... :)

Re:Somehow?

[mdielmann]

I think we're pretty close to the same page there.
I don't think a glut's possible, even with the ramped up production. Too many people want it, and the 1.8M per month seems to be worldwide with [sarcasm]only[/sarcasm] half a million going to the US.
I didn't think Nintendo was creating buzz - they would have gotten just as much if they'd consistently sold out the day they hit the shelves as they did when they sold out in minutes or hours of stocking (with a lot more profit ;).
Generally, yeah, if one console is dominant, it ruins the others for titles. I don't that's going to happen with the Wii because I think many of their purchases are casual gamers. So there should be a lot of room for top-tier titles on other consoles. I think this is also why Nintendo is being somewhat cautious with production - the casual gamer market is a big unknown.
I think a lot of these questions will be answered by this time next year.

Re:Somehow?

[cornface]

Save some parentheses for the rest of us, guy.

Re:Somehow?

[Doctor_Jest]

No parentheses for you! (()) :P

Let the "War" continue indefinitely!

[wilbz]

Which is all nice to know, of course, but not that important to actually enjoying your system of choice well into the future.

That's really the only important thing for the future. Fan boys aside, I continue to hope that all three platforms continue to be successful, if only so there continues to be motivation for people to continue making games. Last thing we need is for good developers to end up putting all of their eggs in one basket, only to have the bottom drop out of it.

The ability to choose between consoles is important, even if it might be frustrating to find a game that you really want is exclusive to the one console you don't have. I'd rather have companies vying to make great exclusives that get you to buy their console, rather than diluted cross-platform titles, or a single console with no real motivation to innovate. This so called "war" is a good thing, and the tighter it is, the better for all of us. . . . regardless of our choice of console(s).

Re:Let the "War" continue indefinitely!

[cowscows]

I basically agree with you, it'd be great for gamers in general if three or four years from now the market balance ends up similar to where these consoles are now. Microsoft made a much better product with the original Xbox than I expected, and the 360 has been a decent evolution of their strategy and of console technology. They've got enough market share that they'll have a steady stream of games, and there's some good games available. Hopefully they'll manage to start seeing some significant and consistent profit, and we'll get a third iteration of the Xbox somewhere down the line.

Nintendo has done a great job of rebuilding a bunch of the credibility that they lost over the past two generations, and they've done it by innovating and bringing gamers some really new ways to play games with the DS and the Wii. They are still producing very high quality games in house, and the Wii seems to be following the same pattern that the DS did, so we should start seeing some real quality 3rd party games over the next year. Nintendo was never really in danger of going bankrupt, but the piles of money they're making now means that everyone can be confident that their console support won't die out like the dreamcast did.

Sony is still holding out hope that somehow their PS3 strategy will magically work, but even if it does ultimately make them some money down the road, don't expect them to dominate this generation like they did with the PS2. Hopefully this will force them to remember that gaming is about more than cramming expensive silicon into a fancy plastic case, and they'll be a little more reasonable next time. A few years of humbling at the hands of Sony helped Nintendo find its way to its current position, hopefully Nintendo can return the favor.

Re:Let the "War" continue indefinitely!

[Ang31us]

I second that motion. This is the reason why I want the PS3 to succeed (but not win) in this generation, once its price drops. I think that Sony has learned their very difficult lesson, but just can't drop the price on the PS3 any more because they are already losing too much $$$ on it. Competition is good for everyone and I really do want a high-definition DVD player for my 50" 1080p HDTV -- I would also looove to play the new Metal Gear when it comes out...I just don't want to pay for than $250 for the PS3.

Re:Let the "War" continue indefinitely!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to say a similar thing. If one system should "lose" the war, and thus lose developer support, I'd think that might be very important to my enjoying that system well into the future. Unless I like playing the exact same game over and over and over and...

Disclaimer: Upon typing that, I realized it could be seen as berating crappy sequel after crappy sequel after crappy sequel, but I'd actually meant it from a "No New Releases" perspective.

Wii - A passing fad?

[ironwill96]

I got a hold of a Wii from a friend for "long-term" borrowing pretty early on after launch and kept it for about 5 months. Initially I had a ton of fun playing Wii Sports just about every night, I even rented games like Red Steel and Wario etc to try out the software for the system. I was unimpressed in general with the types of games they were putting out on the system, just like when I owned a Gamecube and only loved Rogue Squadron and Eternal Darkness for it. Not being a huge modern metroid game fan, and finding that I was unimpressed with Zelda on the Wii, I eventually passed the console back to my friend and went back to playing my 360 / PC.

I guess it all boils down to the type of software made for a particular system, but the article's analysis of software attach rate was interesting in that the Wii's is so low. I do continue to buy games for my 360 even 2 years later (Gears of War, PGR 4, Halo 3, Bioshock, Mass Effect, AC etc) yet nothing but Mario would interest me on the Wii right now. Many of my friends have the same opinions and the initial fad of playing Wii sports has worn off. Plus, its pretty bad that the most popular game on your system is the one you give away for free with the system (yes, everyone has it so they likely try it, but still, in my experience it was by far the most fun to be had on the Wii at least through when I gave the console back to my friend).

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[ThirdPrize]

Yeah, I can imagine the multi player Wii experience is fun but what about single player? What about when you have had a hard day at work and just want to crash out and play something for a bit? I think I would feel a bit silly doing the whole Wii thing by myself and sometimes you just can't be arsed to jump around.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[EveryNickIsTaken]

Agreed. Nintendo has really pigeon-holed themselves, to a certain extent. Casual gamers see Nintendo as the Mario company (and to a lesser extent, the Zelda / Donkey Kong / Pokemon company). It will be difficult for them, along with 3rd party developers, to come up with new IPs that will sell more than a few hundred thousand copies. Granted, Super Mario Galaxy will sell millions of Wiis, but without other high quality games that casual gamers will embrace, the Wii risks becoming merely another Gamecube.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[aztektum]

Wait, it actually sold MORE last month than the month before. That's a sign of a dying fad?

I eventually passed the console back to my friend and went back to playing my 360 / PC. Ah, see perhaps it's more "The Wii isn't my style." than it being a fad that is losing popularity.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[GreyyGuy]

I bought into the idea of the Wii being a "passing fad" for a little while. After all everyone was saying it, and the fact that Nintendo didn't have some huge ramped up production set to crank the consoles out like candy seems to imply they were not sold on it either.

Now, a year after launch and the consoles are still selling off the store shelves in hours. I know some fads can be long, but a year? If it was a fad, and everyone got bored with it quickly, wouldn't there be a huge used market for them? I know they can be found on eBay and everywhere else, but not in huge quantities that a fad would imply.

I think that a lot of the "hardcore" gamers don't like the changes in gameplay that the Wii has. It isn't familiar to them, or they are offended that there are not more twitch FPS or RTS games for the Wii so it "obviously" isn't geared towards them. Instead people that were turned off by the twitch games are picking it up and enjoying it.

So it might be a fad for people that camp out overnight to get the latest and greatest consoles, but it is a hit with people that want to have some fun with a game and not just have the latest game to beat, or who want to play who has the bigger... frame rate.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[zerOnIne]

Wait -- you actually liked Rogue Squadron? I found the thing to be inscrutable. Bad design left and right. Mind you, I'm not a Star Wars fan by any stretch, so I couldn't fill in all the plot and motivation that they assumed I knew. But even so, I found it to be just an awful game.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[ProppaT]

You continue to buy FPS games for your 360 two years later. Is that because you mainly like FPS games or because that's mainly what the 360 has to offer?

I've enjoyed my Wii, but agree there's still a lack of games. Outside of Wii Sports, Zelda, Metroid, Mario, and RE4 I still haven't found much to be interested in. I also own a 360 and outside of Live Arcade, Dead Rising, and assorted other games I still haven't found much to be interested in with it either (not a FPS fan in the least). Each system seems to be pidgeon holed into specific genre's right now and I think it's really hurting the industry. More people are playing games than every before yet there's no compelling reason for anyone to upgrade from the PS2 outside of the fact that they want Nintendo brand games or Halo.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Torodung]

Interesting, and maybe it is just a fad, but I think you're mistaken on one point. It doesn't all boil down to software. It boils down to total market penetration, and specifically one good exclusive title that makes everyone buy your system. If that game is the freebie that comes with the console, you're going to get amazing market penetration, even if that game only has faddish appeal. Wii Sports has only faddish appeal, but it gets the console everywhere, fast, and that will bring good software eventually.

The only thing that will stop that is if developers don't want to bother with the Wii's somewhat obtuse controls, which is definitely a possibility.

But by the time this is all said and done, there are going to be more Wiis in more homes than any other console, and that will almost certainly attract the developers. Nintendo may not have the respect of the hard core gamer, and doesn't deserve it, IMHO, after rehashing the same IP over and over again and focusing on children, but they do have a recipe for success. They are going to make a lot of money, especially if they're not lying about selling those consoles and accessories at a profit.

--
Toro

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[The-Bus]

You don't need to jump around. I've played Wii Sports lying down. It's a bit less fun, but you still play.

I've got a limited number of TV inputs, and the Wii recently lost out to my original Xbox, because I wanted to play RalliSport Challenge 2. It's a fun system, but there's not a lot of software out that's great out there. If its titles were all $20, I'd buy more of them (as I did with the DS).

I do want to try Super Mario Galaxy as well as Zack and Wiki.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Zelos]

Agreed, it was a pretty crappy game. The Hoth level was good, after that it all went downhill and I gave up in boredom.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

I think that a lot of the "hardcore" gamers don't like the changes in gameplay that the Wii has. It isn't familiar to them, or they are offended that there are not more twitch FPS or RTS games for the Wii so it "obviously" isn't geared towards them. Instead people that were turned off by the twitch games are picking it up and enjoying it. I think you got it flipped. Hardcore gamers are all too familiar with the games as they aren't all that new, just old games repackaged for the wii mote. You can't tell me anything in Rayman hasn't been done in numerous arcades and other machines. Ditto with the majority of the rest of the library. They use the wii mote either as a really clumsy mouse, a sort of slow light gun, replace button mashing with vigorous shaking etc.. Some do it better then others but it isn't all that new. The under lying game play is old, as old as gaming. Thats what we object to the shallowness and sense of deja vu. I have a wii but I buy games for the DS and PS3 at a 3:1 rate to the wii (3 DS and 3 PS3 to 1 wii) games because there aren't that many games to appeal to me. Maybe fire emblem.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Ang31us]

I bought the Wii on launch day and after a few months of Wii Sports and Zelda, I started to fear the same thing -- that it was a gimmick or passing fad that would fade over time.

Then Resident Evil and Madden came out and suddenly I was aiming my screen to shoot Ganados, throwing lobs and zip passes with my right hand, swatting balls out of the air with my hands, pulling interceptions down with my hands, and putting big hits on runners using my arms...and those were just the first attempts by third parties to integrate motion control into "normal" games.

I no longer fear that the Wii's motion control is a passing fad or gimmick. I think it's here to stay and be improved on in the next-generation consoles.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[moderatorrater]

I buy games for the...PS3 at a 3:1 rate to the wii And you've done that for, what, one month?

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[cowscows]

I can assure you that more people bought the Wii for WiiSports than for Zelda. And WiiSports hardly has any IP in it, the characters are Mii's that the players created themselves.

Sony and MS would kill for an IP like Mario. It's not going to be any harder for anyone to come up with a new IP for the Wii than it will be for the PS3 or the 360.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Nevyn]

Hardcore gamers are all too familiar with the games as they aren't all that new, just old games repackaged for the wii mote.

I could say the same thing about every game available on every other platform, but replace controls with slightly better graphics. And while the Wii type controls have been available in specialized arcade games, this is the first usable play at home system. So personally I've spent more on Wii disk games than any other console, maybe more on Wii VC games (I kind of dread to add that up), and I fully expected to reward Nintendo for wanting to produce a good games console instead of a good number crunching machine.

I'm not saying the Wii doesn't have it's faults, but to pretend all the "hardcore" gamers have your opinion of it is just wishful thinking on your part. I'll be much happier if both the Xbox-360 and PS3 die horribly in the marketplace, as then we might actually get quality games and innovation in the next gen. instead of "Ohh, we have X% more polys for Y% more $".

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

I'm not saying the Wii doesn't have it's faults, but to pretend all the "hardcore" gamers have your opinion of it is just wishful thinking on your part. I'll be much happier if both the Xbox-360 and PS3 die horribly in the marketplace, as then we might actually get quality games and innovation in the next gen. instead of "Ohh, we have X% more polys for Y% more $". I'd prefer if all 3 have a good solid run. Monopolies are never good for gamers. I think a game like katamari damacy is much more innovative then wario ware, mario party, Zelda:TP, Metroid 3. That game exists on the360 and PS2. So your sort of got a skewed view of innovation. The Wii has potential but even the first party titles aren't tapping into it that much.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[GreyyGuy]

You are right. There have never been FPS games or RTS games like ones on the PS3.

Come on.

And I believe the rate of game purchase, but at the same time will point out that the PS3 has huge 3rd party contributors while the Wii does not. I would even bet that the rate of new games is probably close to 3 to 1 for PS3 to Wii. That should be changing next year as more games are released for the Wii after the developers realized they missed the boat on the popularity of it.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[HalAtWork]

How can you call Wii a passing fad when the PS3 and XBox 360 both are just rehashing genres and quickly porting games that were available or in development on PS2 and XBox? How can you call Wii a passing fad, when even on other consoles, a game that requires a gimmicky controller and that doesn't have the greatest graphics is catching on like wildfire (Guitar Hero III, soon Rock Band)?
 
I used to be the kind of person to upgrade my PC every other month just because I wanted the latest in graphics and processing, but after a while (it took me 2 or 3 years :P) I realized it wasn't worth it just to be playing the same exact games with slightly better graphics. I wanted more than FPS, RTS, and MMORPG. At the time, consoles were providing much better games, and plus, the FPS/RTS/MMORPGs were starting to get good on consoles so if ever I got a craving, there were options.
 
Now it's kind of the same thing but with Wii vs other consoles... I could keep upgrading (and I did buy a PS3 and 360 as well, so I wouldn't miss out on anything) but I just have more fun playing different and more innovative games on the Wii.
 
I've got over 22 games on the Wii now and a scant 3 on PS3 (VF5, R&C:F, Darkness) and 3 on 360 (Katamari, Halo 3, Bioshock). On the Wii I still go back and play Excite Truck, Super Paper Mario, Trauma Center, Super Monkey Ball, I still even play SSB:M, and still play Wii Sports and of couse now am very into Mario Galaxy.
 
See, there ARE gamers that just want to play the same games over and over with slightly better graphics, but they're obsessed with a few genres that they simply want to play in a perfect form because that's what really appeals to them. However, most other gamers want a wide variety of experiences and don't really care to play the same couple of games re-made and perfected over time while paying a ton of cash for new console versions or new game versions.
 
This is in fact what would even draw your average person into games, a wide variety of easily accessible yet deep experiences. With games like Excite Truck or Mario Galaxy or Trauma Center, or Monkey Ball, gamers can have casual fun with it yet they can also choose to get as deep as they want into the game perfecting their ability to play it and discovering the nuances and strategies, but they don't have to, and they can just have casual fun with them as well.
 
I think that games that keep getting re-made and obsess on a few tiny details and aren't genre-bending or genre-evolving are the fads, and you can tell by the amount of clones that keep popping up to cash in until the genres ram into the ground.
 
Halo 3 is fun but Halo 2 was just as fun. R&C:F is fun, but so were the first 3 games. On the Wii I'm seeing a lot more new stuff that keeps me hooked. Other systems just don't hold my interest.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

You are right. There have never been FPS games or RTS games like ones on the PS3.

Come on.

And I believe the rate of game purchase, but at the same time will point out that the PS3 has huge 3rd party contributors while the Wii does not. I would even bet that the rate of new games is probably close to 3 to 1 for PS3 to Wii. That should be changing next year as more games are released for the Wii after the developers realized they missed the boat on the popularity of it. Tell me what was the last movie you really enjoyed. Now tell me how innovative it was. Chances are it's basically the same story as a dozen other movies but just done well. Tell me the last experimental college film you really enjoyed? Innovation is often fun when it's small and incremental and followed by a lot of polish. Innovation itself does not induce fun and innovation is often terrible. Lair did have a innovative control system but done really poorly.

A game like assassins creed is innovative in a number of ways but it's wrapped up in a fairly slick package. COD4 does in fact attempt to innovate with a semi-RPG style class system. You can't tell me portal from the Half-life orange box wasn't innovative. Eye of judgment is fairly innovative. Even Halo 3 has a few multi-player innovations.

Wii doesn't have monopoly on fun or innovation. It's just got positive karma and buzz. Whether the buzz is hype or real remains to be seen. So far I am not impressed.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Gaming nerds have been saying that for a long time, but the systems are still selling in increasing numbers, so I'm not going to write off Wii based on the claims of gaming nerds.

One problem is that you're probably not the target market. People that aren't in a target market are too quick to write off something that's not for them, because they have this fallacy that they themselves represent the typical buyer for the product.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[hawkbug]

You need to try Super Mario Galaxy and Super Paper Mario. Both those games don't use the Wiimote is a bad way like a lot of other crappy wii ports at this point, such as Transformers the Movie. I consider that game unplayable on the Wii. I've played it on the PS2, 360, and the Wii - and the Wii version is horrendous.

Back to the Mario franchise - they came out swinging with these games. They are amazing. Also, Mario Strikers Charged. The game play is a blast on all of these and the graphics are great for the Wii. I can't put Super Mario Galaxy down right now. My son loves playing it with me in 2 player mode and it's a great kids game - no sex and no violence. I know that's a huge turn off to most of the slashdot crowd - but if you have little kids like I do, it's a very welcome change for a modern video game. Super Paper Mario is a classic with it's instant flip to 3D mode game play - and Super Mario Galaxy is awesome because of it's "gravity" - if you don't know what I'm talking about, watch an online video of it. That game is a blast.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[zerOnIne]

I didn't even get to Hoth. Not that I even know where Hoth is in the universe. I didn't even realize that I was playing as Luke Skywalker until I figured out all of the "LUKE! DO THIS THING HERE NOW!" type comments were actually being directed at me.

I gave up after getting creamed in the deathstar trench a few times.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Kabuthunk]

As opposed to first-person shooters, which are TOTALLY new and not copying anything from previous games.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[C0rinthian]

There is a big difference between focusing on children, and simply NOT focusing on adults. (Or more specifically, adolescents who care that they look 'adult') Zelda and Mario are not childrens games. They're just games.

I'd say the same thing about Pixar movies. Calling them childrens movies simply isn't accurate.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[VGPowerlord]

Sony and MS would kill for an IP like Mario. It's not going to be any harder for anyone to come up with a new IP for the Wii than it will be for the PS3 or the 360.

Sony has an IP that, while not nearly as popular as Mario, doesn't do too badly on its own. They call it Ratchet & Clank.

Unfortunately, Sony has another studio (Insomniac Games) producing this series rather than producing it themselves.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[VGPowerlord]

How can you call Wii a passing fad when the PS3 and XBox 360 both are just rehashing genres and quickly porting games that were available or in development on PS2 and XBox?

On the Wii I still go back and play Excite Truck, Super Paper Mario, Trauma Center, Super Monkey Ball, I still even play SSB:M, and still play Wii Sports and of couse now am very into Mario Galaxy.

...and out of the ones you listed for the Wii, you have 1 GC game, 2 GC->Wii games ported during development, 1 DS->Wii port, and 2 Wii Originals?

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[VGPowerlord]

er... 3 Wii originals. I somehow didn't count Wii Sports.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[theantipop]

I can't fathom your argument. "Hardcore" gamers thrive on familiarity. Of the 12 360 games that have sold 1 million or more copies, the only game that isn't a shooter, GTA-style or Madden game is Elder Scrolls 4. Sadly, it seems hardcore is increasingly synonymous with OMGHALO.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[tepples]

I'd prefer if all 3 have a good solid run. Monopolies are never good for gamers. Are cartels any better? Among currently sold systems designed for single-system multiplayer gaming, which encourages use with games self-published by independent game developers?

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

actually, i think you've got it flipped thinking that he has it flipped. Tho i agree some games are just other games clumsily adapted to the wiimote (NFS: Carbon is a prime example of this imo) but sports, play, warioware, metroid, and mario all have gameplay that is inseparable from the control scheme. I would *love* to play a more hardcore fps on the metroid control scheme, its the best fps interface i've ever used. but that doesnt make corruption's gameplay any more shallow and already-done than, say gears of war or halo 3.
You really are the first person I've heard say they didnt like the wii because it wasn't original enough. What exactly about any of your PS3 games is so innovative?

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[7Prime]

Well, that's WHY Wii Sports is the most popular game... everyone has it. If they had sold it for $50, it would be be very low on the totum pole.

Also, I guess it just depends upon what your tastes are. I bought a 360 a few months back, and I absolutely love it. But if anything, it's just reenforced my respect for the Wii. Out of the 360 games that I've bought (Bioshock, Kameo, Gears of War, and Blue Dragon), only Bioshock and Blue Dragon have held my attention. I've TRIED to get into Gears of War, but it's just not my thing, and Kameo just plain got old from boring design (too much brawler, not enough platform/puzzle elements). My trackrecord on the Wii is about the same, a good 50/50 success rate with game purchases.

However, Zelda: Twilight Princess became my favorite game of all time, and Mario Galaxy is shaping up to be absolutely wonderful (I was really skeptical at first, but I find myself absolutely loving it). With things like the next Final Fantasy: CC, a port of Okami, Smash, a new Tales game, MarioKart, and a number of other things, the Wii really looks like it has a great year ahead of it.

Meanwhile, the 360 continues to impress.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[7Prime]

Well, "innovative" doesn't always equal "good". You need innovation, and you need pollish, and you very rarely find the two together in the same game. I often prefer the pollished games better. Zelda: TP is a pollished game... and it's the best game in the series, IMO. Is it innovative? Not at all, but the joy in playing it comes from how incredibly well it's presented. Same with Mario Galaxy, although MG is quite innovative. Many times, series games are more innovative than standalone games, even if they feature some of the same characters/gameplay, because they can use those superficial elements as an anchor, while being incredibly creative on other fronts.

Regardless, though... one of my most anticipated games of 2008 is the Wii port of Okami. Partly, I just want to get my hands on a Widescreen, Wiimote version of the game (which lends itself so well to that control), but additionally, I'd just like to see more broad exposure to a game that was so graphically innovative, while being so pollished in other areas.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

You really are the first person I've heard say they didnt like the wii because it wasn't original enough. What exactly about any of your PS3 games is so innovative? You've mis read me. I'm saying the Wii isn't that innovative. I haven't said I dislike it for this reason. I've always enjoyed polished and fun games. I realize innovations is good sometimes but innovation is not the be all and end all. some of the games that have held me for years at a time weren't very innovative (Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft III, FF6, FF4, Zelda: a link to the past, Counter Strike) The big thing I'm coming out against is the idea that wii mote = holy grail. The Wii mote is good for something, terrible for others. Wii sports is a nice well polished mix of control schemes. Warioware is a boring mess of minigames. Metroid is a FPS that uses the wii mote as a mouse and keyboard. Mario Galaxy i haven't played yet. Wii sports is fun with company. Mario Party is the ultimate double date game.

The PS3 has held my attention with ratchet and clank, COD 4, Dynasty Warriors: Gundam (guilty pleasure), AC4, and I still have a back log of PS2 games to go through.
I have enjoyed my wii but it's flavor of games have thus far not held my attention in the same way. Some interesting games (fire emblem, RE:umbrella chronicles) have come out so this may change.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

Are cartels any better? Among currently sold systems designed for single-system multiplayer gaming, which encourages use with games self-published by independent game developers? Indie developers have a place in the current market too. Look at the PS3's PSN network for everydayshooter, Flow, and some others. Look at the 360's XNA initiative. I wouldn't be inclined to call the console game industry a cartel. Way too many players and true competition for that label.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[7Prime]

THERE IS NO SINGLE HARDCORE CULTURE!

Many hardcore gamers are casual gamers. They play for a quick, intense action, usually featuring lots of bloody stumps. They buy Halo, Gears of War, Dead Rising, and Fear in droves.

Many hardcore gamers are connosiours, who pay attention to the industry as a whole, and look at games from an artistic standpoint.

Many hardcore gamers are competetive gamers, they play for self-satisfaction in increasing their skill, playing for hours and hours on the hardest settings, online, against other power gamers.

The point is, there is no single group defined as "hardcore gamers". The term is thrown around in many different circles as some sort of badge of legitimacy, but in actuality, it's a throwaway term.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[KingEomer]

Metroid is a FPS that uses the wii mote as a mouse and keyboard. (...) I have enjoyed my wii but it's flavor of games have thus far not held my attention in the same way. So you'd rather play an FPS on the PS3 than on the Wii? You said that the Wii mote is good for some things, but not for others. I'm pretty sure one of those things at which it excels is FPS games. Playing Metroid, I actually found the nun chuck to be much better than wasd for movement, and the wiimote was pretty much as good as a mouse for aiming. The only downfall that I can see (in games where this would be necessary) is that switching weapons may not be as easy as hitting the number keys.

Yes, the Wii doesn't have much in the way of FPS games, nor could it have FPS games as shiny as those for the PS3 and XBox360. However, the first part is due to the fact that developers seem to have not realized the Wii's potential, relative to the second part, which is that the vastly superior control system offered by the Wii outweighs, IMHO, its inferior graphics, especially since they aren't *that* bad.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[edwdig]

Well, that's WHY Wii Sports is the most popular game... everyone has it. If they had sold it for $50, it would be be very low on the totum pole.

In Japan, Wii Sports isn't a pack in and sells at full price. It's still the highest selling game on the Wii over there.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[seebs]

Maybe you should try playing one instead of going off rhetoric.

No jumping around needed, nothing "silly", you just play games, and they're fun. Single-player experience is awesome.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[MikeBabcock]

Okay, I'll bite, besides the input method (power gloves, light pens, etc. have been around a long time), what's so innovative about Wii games in general?

Very few games are innovative. Super Monkey Ball was innovative for example, but Super Mario was essentially the same concept as lode runner if you think about it. Qbert may quality as innovative. The first light-gun game (duck hunt?) may have been innovative.

I don't expect innovative games, I expect long-term fun and engaging games. When I bought Ratchet & Clank: Future, I didn't want to put it down until I'd beaten it. Its loads of fun and the storyline is engaging and entertaining. Is jumping around shooting things innovative? of course not. Is it a helluva lot of fun? Yes.

The Wii has fun games. The PS3 has fun games. The 360 has fun games. The PC has fun games. Pick your poison.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

hrm, fair enough, though i hardly think that my interpretation of 'wii=super not innovative and all of its games have been done before but have now been reworked for new control scheme' as you disliking it isn't that huge of a reach.
Yes, metroid is an FPS that uses the mote and nunchuk as a mouse and keyboard. And, honestly, improves upon mouse and keyboard imo. If you'd rather play on a keyboard, go ahead, but having the first point and shoot FPS setup can hardly be called noninnovative.

I'm glad that you have PS3 games that are holding your attention, but what about them is innovative? I enjoy mario party 8, but its the same game again, and takes 0 advantage of the wiimote.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

So you'd rather play an FPS on the PS3 than on the Wii? You said that the Wii mote is good for some things, but not for others. I'm pretty sure one of those things at which it excels is FPS games. Playing Metroid, I actually found the nun chuck to be much better than wasd for movement, and the wiimote was pretty much as good as a mouse for aiming. The only downfall that I can see (in games where this would be necessary) is that switching weapons may not be as easy as hitting the number keys.

Yes, the Wii doesn't have much in the way of FPS games, nor could it have FPS games as shiny as those for the PS3 and XBox360. However, the first part is due to the fact that developers seem to have not realized the Wii's potential, relative to the second part, which is that the vastly superior control system offered by the Wii outweighs, IMHO, its inferior graphics, especially since they aren't *that* bad. I'd really rather play an FPS on my computer. WASD may not be as good as the numchuck (debatable) but a mouse is still a huge leap beyond the wii mote(not debatable). And it does look that bad on many LCD HDTV's which is the most common type. Any good multi-platform game, I'll likely go with the PS3 version as I don't own a 360 and it will be far uglier on the Wii. Any good wii game I pick up will not likely be a FPS, in fact I buy very very few FPS. I prefer RPG's. For the wii it'll be party games exclusively.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

I'm glad that you have PS3 games that are holding your attention, but what about them is innovative? I enjoy mario party 8, but its the same game again, and takes 0 advantage of the wiimote. I've always harped that Innovation != Good. Innovation !=> good. Innovation !=> fun. It's not that those PS3 games I listed are innovative, it's simply that they are fun. Katamari Damacy was innovative and fun. Lair was innovative and not fun. Wolfenstien was innovative and fun (for short 20 minutes spans before the vomiting started). Black and white was innovative and arguably not fun. Mario 3 was slightly innovative and really fun. Zelda: link to the past was not innovative and very fun. FF6 was very derivative but fun. Counter Strike was somewhat innovative and a lot of fun. Warcraft 3 wasn't innovative at all and immense amounts of fun.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[seebs]

While a couple of the Rayman minigames are vaguely familiar, mostly, they're experiences never before available on a console.

Seems to me you're missing the point of the system.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[seebs]

In general? Not necessarily anything.

But IMHO, SMG is innovative on many levels. Yeah, there were bits and pieces of sort of similar stuff, here and there, but the gameplay is totally unlike anything else.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[KDR_11k]

Nintendo may not have the respect of the hard core gamer, and doesn't deserve it, IMHO, after rehashing the same IP over and over again and focusing on children

That must be a very soft hardcore gamer you're thinking of, my definition of hardcore includes the ability to overlook superficialities if the game is good, someone who plays the games to look cool instead of the gameplay is not part of the hard core of gaming. Reviews rank Super Mario Galaxy as the second best game of all time (currently, of course that'll change as more reviews get added but it's a really strong start) so that'd have to be a strong aversion against sequels (which apparently isn't an issue when the IP that gets sequelled involves blood and gore, eh?) and colorful games.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

I agree, good games do not necessarily need to be innovative. What i was getting at was you level a criticism against the wii, that its games aren't all that innovative, that interesting control-scheme != gaming innovation.

You can't tell me anything in Rayman hasn't been done in numerous arcades and other machines. Ditto with the majority of the rest of the library. They use the wii mote either as a really clumsy mouse, a sort of slow light gun, replace button mashing with vigorous shaking etc.. Some do it better then others but it isn't all that new. The under lying game play is old, as old as gaming. Thats what we object to the shallowness and sense of deja vu And yet the PS3 is spared from this criticism. Which is silly. You start talking about innovation, but then when pressed say that its not about innovation. so what exactly are you saying? How are the games in the PS3 library not subject to the same "as old as gaming" criticism?

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[trdrstv]

Metroid is a FPS that uses the wii mote and controls better than a mouse and keyboard could .

Fixed that for you.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[fbartho]

Wrist flick is all that is neccessary to activate moves in many games, and then Super Mario Galaxy that just came out is an amazing game great single player, easy to pickup and put down. Plus there are all the virtual console games, and that was nearly enough to justify the console all by itself for me.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

And yet the PS3 is spared from this criticism. Which is silly. You start talking about innovation, but then when pressed say that its not about innovation. so what exactly are you saying? How are the games in the PS3 library not subject to the same "as old as gaming" criticism? No ones claims the Ps3 is highly innovative. Thus nothing to critique. The PS3 is mostly Ps2 games with prettier lights, rounder round objects, and busier environments. Many Wii games are the simple Atari/NES games with a wii mote. The under lying play mechanic is taken directly from those early games. What is Rayman? a collection of NES games with a wii mote Warioware? Atari games with a wii mote. Elebits? Shooting gallery + wii mote. Zelda:TP? Zelda:OT with wii mote. Ratchet and Clank:future? Ratchet and clank: UYA with more eye candy. Restance? Quake but prettier. Halo 3? Quake with tea bagging. Mass Effect? KOTOR with alien sex. Assasins Creed? GTA 1100 AD. FFXII? Nethack with a storyline. RE4:wii? RE1 with better controls. Heavenly sword? God of war with tits. God of War? Devil may cry but better. Devil may Cry? Final Fight but better. Final Fight? Bad Dudes but better.

As you said innovation isn't a vital part of a fun game, it helps sometimes but it's not essential. But so many Wii proponents harp the innovation angle. I want to point out that no in fact it's not that novel. It's a light gun, it's a laggy mouse and keyboard (Quake), and It's a replacement for mashing buttons thus far. Done well it's pretty fun (Mario Party 8) but not innovative.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

I agree, good games do not necessarily need to be innovative. What i was getting at was you level a criticism against the wii, that its games aren't all that innovative, that interesting control-scheme != gaming innovation.

*You can't tell me anything in Rayman hasn't been done in numerous arcades and other machines. Ditto with the majority of the rest of the library. They use the wii mote either as a *really clumsy mouse, a sort of slow light gun, replace button mashing with vigorous shaking etc.. Some do it better then others but it isn't all that new. The under lying game play *is old, as old as gaming. Thats what we object to the shallowness and sense of deja vu

And yet the PS3 is spared from this criticism. Which is silly. You start talking about innovation, but then when pressed say that its not about innovation. so what exactly are you saying? How are the games in the PS3 library not subject to the same "as old as gaming" criticism? Sorry about the double post, but upon review I've noticed I didn't say anything about the PS3 games being innovative or that I desired innovation and didn't say the wii games can't be fun. I think I was pretty consistent but I may be wrong. I've been saying a lot that the games that have held my attention do not do so because they are innovative. The games people are are claiming as innovative have all been done before or done better elsewhere. I've also been very very against the idea that one platform should "win". Thus when people come out and say "yeah PS3, 360 is the s0xx0rs because it doesn't innovate" I more or less have to come out with a diatribe how "wii isn't really innovative either".

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

I wasn't saying that you did say the PS3 was innovative, in fact I very pointedly criticising you for saying that what hardcore gamers didnt like about the wii is that it isnt innovative, but then were silent on the innovation angle while praising the PS3. this struck me as at least sloppy argument, for if hardcore gamers are turned off by the the lack of innovation in the wii, then why are they so turned on by Halo 3?
I think we just fundamentally disagree about the role of the controller in the gaming experience. I find the wiimote to be fantastically innovative. Motion-based and other non-standard controllers are nothing new, granted, but the wiimote is the first to do such a good job of allowing seamless integration of motion into the game. (well into a well-designed game. I found Red Steel to be almost unplayable poorly exectuted in this dept.) One controller that can act as steering wheel, baseball bat, and gun, and do all with reasonable accuracy, based on movement rather than buttons. You call it laggy. fine, there's a split second of lag, and i totally accept not wanting to just deal with it. I can deal with it, but that's obviously not reason for you to. I think the versatility of the mote is what really makes it for me. Just take the number of different bowling rolls possible in wii sports. everybody rolls different. everybody feels the motion capture differently. It makes the experience much more organic than a 'push L1 to do this move' arrangement. And i think that is a very innovative thing to add to a game, even if the rest of the game mechanics are different. but its not a silver bullet. I played NFS: Carbon on a friend's 360 and just gave my wii copy away. it was no longer worth playing. these things happen.
I personally agree that there shouldn't be a console'winner.' except maybe between the 360 and PS3. they do pretty much the same things. shrug

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want a bunch of goofy ultimately empty mini-games. I want a deeper system of moves and counters in an enviroment which doesn't give itself over to button mashing or just twitch reactions. Preferably in a setting that fosters a kind of team identity. Mini-games are fine for lots of people. Not me. Hence, the game I play most is Gears of War. It's gotten to the point where it's nearly replaced TV, movies and internet porn. (In time spent, not function). For pure joy of playing Crackdown might just be my best game, hey Captain America with guns, but the newly released Assassin's Creed is climbing the charts. Wii's definately broadened the gaming market. But I was already in the sweet spot. Supposedly, Resident Evil on the Wii is the game changer, or so I've been told. But I would need maybe 6 of those with at least one to have the kind of doesn't get old playing with friends gameplay like Gears.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[king-manic]

I wasn't saying that you did say the PS3 was innovative, in fact I very pointedly criticising you for saying that what hardcore gamers didnt like about the wii is that it isnt innovative, but then were silent on the innovation angle while praising the PS3. this struck me as at least sloppy argument, for if hardcore gamers are turned off by the the lack of innovation in the wii, then why are they so turned on by Halo 3? No so much the lack of innovation but the lack of polish/depth. "Shallow and a sense of deja vu". Perhaps I wasn't elegant in getting that point across. Shallow does not imply lack of innovation only that the game itself isn't very "deep". Ideally you want "easy to learn, difficult to master." Most Wii games except Zelda, RE:4, Metroid, Mario Galaxy, and maybe Mario Strikers are "easy to learn, nothing to master". Thats what drives away the hardcore.

Motion-based and other non-standard controllers are nothing new, granted, but the wiimote is the first to do such a good job of allowing seamless integration of motion into the game. (well into a well-designed game. I found Red Steel to be almost unplayable poorly exectuted in this dept.) Thats true, all in the implementation. It does a much better job of it then Nintendo's true first attempt( Power Glove). So far they've only used it to be a substitute for other devices. Sometimes well, sometimes not. Undoubtedly there will come a game like katamary damacy that revolutionizes how we use the wii mote like Katamary damacy did for the dual sticks. And We'll wonder why no one else ever thought of that. It'll fun, and unique. I have enjoyed some time with my wii. Your right, I enjoy precision more then newness.

I personally agree that there shouldn't be a console'winner.' except maybe between the 360 and PS3. they do pretty much the same things. shrug They could do the same things, but currently their 3rd party support vary enough that they are still separate entities. 360 for western style games like MAss Effect, PS3 for Japanese oriented games like FF XIII.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Anonymous Coward]

I made this exact post only 2 weeks ago and got railed as being a troll apparently.
I'm shocked you managed to pull it off, bravo and yes, I agree very much

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Falladir]

Check out N, from Metanet, for an illustration of what made Super Mario good. You can take an existing game, improve the physics simulation, and get a much more compelling experience. Improving the AI can also be huge.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[cornface]

Thats true, all in the implementation. It does a much better job of it then Nintendo's true first attempt( Power Glove). So far they've only used it to be a substitute for other devices.

Nintendo didn't have anything to do with the creation or sale of the Power Glove. It was sold by Mattel.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[cornface]

That must be a very soft hardcore gamer you're thinking of, my definition of hardcore includes the ability to overlook superficialities if the game is good, someone who plays the games to look cool instead of the gameplay is not part of the hard core of gaming. Well that is sort of the problem isn't it? "Hardcore" and "casual" gamers are arbitrarily defined terms created solely to argue on the internet.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[CronoCloud]

But Sony does own Naughty Dog (Jak and Daxter)

Plus "Sucker Punch" (Sly cooper) also has close ties with Sony.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[HalAtWork]

When I bought Ratchet & Clank, I had fun with it for a few hours and got to the third planet, but then I did put it down. I got Mario Galaxy, and it's not like Lode Runner or Q-Bert really, and the innovative thing about the game is the use of gravity, the level design, the camera, and the controls. What has R&C:F done over the other games besides a few sections where you are flying with motion controls or falling with motion controls? Even then, the other games had similar sections but w/o motion controls. Even the level makeups had you doing similar things. Mario is definitely an evolution and R&C:F is just a rehash.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[HalAtWork]

Yup, and my point is that I'd rather play remakes on Wii as well as the other innovative games that come up on Wii. It's better than just playing remakes on PS3 and 360 where developers are putting so much time into graphics that games are shipping with bugs and have hollow gameplay and level design due to rushing it to the market so players could have something to play :P

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, kinda makes predictions impossible. Not that it stops people from trying.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you want a system where you can buy 80% FPS games instead of one with a variety of games and new ways of playing?

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to quickly add that the Wii games that most people buy the system for(sports and play) are just rehashes of the older playstation eye-toy games with a new controller... Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[MikeBabcock]

If you liked the old Ratchet & Clank games, the new R&C:F is more of the same beautifully explosive mayhem with a fun plot and entertaining characters. Maybe you also didn't like Halo 3 because it was just like Halo 1 and 2?

Re:Wii - A passing fad?

[MikeBabcock]

You can't improve on Super Mario. Well, not in sales at least. You realize Super Mario sold more copies than next gen consoles have sold games combined in the entire year? Yeah, I'm guessing, but considering it sold over 40 million copies (yeah, just Super Mario Bros.), I'm pretty sure I'm close.

C'mon Sony, do better

[sayfawa]

I've heard (possibly here on /.) that the only reason PS3 sales went up around the time of the launch of the 40GB was that people were snatching up the more expensive 80GB before it and it's backwards compatibility with PS2 disappeared. Meanwhile, my kid asked for a PS2 for christmas.

Re:C'mon Sony, do better

[thornomad]

Apparently sales are up in Japan -- outselling the Wii even. Maybe they got the color wrong?

Re:C'mon Sony, do better

[moderatorrater]

If they can sustain it for more than a week it'll be a sign that sales are up. However, it looks to be more of a spike because of the new, lower price. I doubt they'll beat the wii for this month taken as a whole.

Wii

[webmaster404]

I expect that the Wii will continue to win, it shows Nintendo's domination strategy. First there are exclusive games made my Nintendo that are very very popular such as Mario, Zelda, Fire Emblem and Star Fox that will only be available on the Wii or other Nintendo consoles. Sony has Square, however usually will port the games to Wii and 360 also later in the console's life. The 360 has Halo and.. not much else, most of the people that I have talked to bought a 360 for Halo and Halo only. The Wii manages to have some good games for it, Galaxy, Paper Mario and Zelda are all good and exclusive titles, but as with the DS, we only have to wait a few years and after all the "tech-demos" of new controls you get very solid games. Sure Nintendo's systems don't have an absolutely huge quantity of games for them, but those that are made for it have very high quality (sports games aside) and don't have the flaws that the other systems had. For example, Tales of Symphonia for the Gamecube was much better then the Tales games on the PS1-2 because Nintendo desinged the hardware so you wouldn't get loading screen after loading screen like on the PS2. In the end, Nintendo is more popular, you only have to look at how almost every store has a PS3 and 360 but very few have the Wii in stock and sometimes even Wii point cards are sold out! The Wii will win the "console war" the way that Nintendo always has, good quality, exclusive games.

Re:Wii

[Gravatron]

The problem with nintendo is well, they have been declining in quility in some area for years now, and they rarely ship more than a single game in a core francise a generation if its done 1st party. Two is generaly the max you see, and even thats rare. Zelda and Metroid had two each, but Metroid wasn't 1st party, and Zelda was a port split between two systems. Quility wise, alof of their games last generation, and imho, this generation have had some major downsides. WW was rushed, and boring, TP lacked the series signature miniquests, Double Dash has average, lacking the fun battles the previous games had. Metriod prime was amazing, prime two was more average. Sunhine was near universaly bashed, and Luigi's mansion was forgetable. Most everything else they shiped was easily forgotten, or just a mini-game collection or mario branded sports title.

On the wii, we see the same thing. Galaxy is great, as is Metriod, but we aren't likely to see more of those series for a long time. Paper mario was a disapointment, Zelda nearly hit the mark, but its half-asses motion controls hurt it. Wii sports, for all its hype, hardly quilifies as a game at all, and I firmly consider it nothing more than a playable tech demo. Nothing else has really come out yet thats worth half a damn. Nintendo just can't put out enough quility games to keep people playing beyond the initial wow you get from the console. After that, the novelty wears off, and your left with a doorstop.

So why does it sell? Its all about hype, and hooking people with the initial novelty.

Re:Wii

[webmaster404]

Yes, I'll admit that last generation Nintendo didn't have the greatest games and currently they seem to lack some good ones now. However, Super Smash Bros. Brawl is coming out and that has always been a hit. Sure all the Mario Party games after the third one added no more interesting ideas and most third-party games seem like tech-demos, the Virtual Console is saving the Wii. Because even if there is no good games on store shelves, every Monday (Friday in Europe) they add new classic games. This is what is making Nintendo a lot of money because while the prices are reasonable ($5 for NES, $6 for TurboGrafix, $8 for SNES/Genesis and $10 for N64) a near 0 distribution cost and the speed of which they can get out there keeps many classic gamers happy. Also, they have started to add Japan only games for $1 more and that could be in the end what saves the Wii.

Re:Wii

[ThirdPrize]

Trouble is that most of the decent Wii exclusives are only things that you have played if you have owned any of the previous Nintendo consoles. Zelda and Star Fox don't mean much to anyone raised on a PS2 or xbox. Sony lost Square/Enix years ago. They are working on 360 exclusive games and have been for a while now.

Re:Wii

[edwdig]

Zelda and Metroid had two each, but Metroid wasn't 1st party,

Metroid was first party. Nintendo has owned Retro Studios 100% since early in the development of the game - about the time it switched from 3rd person to 1st person.

HAL Labs and Intelligent Systems are also Nintendo 1st party studios. I think there's a few others as well.

Re:Wii

[BackwardEngineer]

Can you provide proof of Sony losing Squeenix to the 360?

Re:Wii

[ThirdPrize]

Yes.

Re:Wii

[BackwardEngineer]

A handful of games does not constitute "lost". Plus, developing and publishing are two different things. Sony still has Squeenix making games for the PS3.

This is an insipid console war

[Neon Aardvark]

They obviously don't make console wars like this any more:

http://advancedmn.com/article.php?artid=10303

Politics, idiocy, CEOs engaging in childish name calling, censorship, back firing strategies....

Mod me down for being slightly off topic, but know this: I am right to wallow in nostalgia.

Just sold mine

[Fross]

The market is good so I just sold my Wii to fund a PC upgrade. Why? I'm afraid it's a boring reason - I'm just not a console player, when I want to game, I want to play on the PC. Just couldn't get comfortable gaming on the sofa on the TV.

I have to say the Wii is the most varied and interesting console playing experience I've come across. It has games that focus on the wiimote, some of them are good, a lot of them are gimmicky. People who only play those, are going to be disappointed eventually. But it also has good games that don't use it, like more regular console games. One that uses the wiimote just a little (but does it well) but is more like a conventional game, is Mario Strikers Charged. The Wiimote minigame was an improvement on the original, but otherwise, it was a straight console type game, and a good one at that.

Zelda wasn't so much of a killer app as a killer *launch* app, it's great, but people are talking more about Wii Sports now, it's had better longevity (in the public eye, if not with each player. Though I have to say it's the game I'll miss the most). Super Mario Galaxy looks like it will be an absolute must-have, everyone is raving about it already, and its unique presentation and (again) minimal-but-useful use of the Wiimote will attract people in droves. I think this will be bigger than Halo 3 was for the 360.

Sometimes I think Nintendo doesn't want to publish "Hardcore" games, because their presence might detract from the casual image of the Wii, but I imagine they will do more of those with time, once the concept of the Wiimote style control is more embedded in people's minds. Mario coming out a year after launch and Brawl soon are good examples of this.

Suffice to say, if I'm at someone else's place and a 360 is on, I'll watch and be amazed by the graphics, but if a Wii is on, I'll probably get up and have a go.

Re:Just sold mine

[VGPowerlord]

Zelda might have done better if it was actually designed with the Wii in mind instead of just shoehorning Wii controls onto a game developed for the Gamecube.

Irritatingly, the Gamecube version of the game kept the redesigned item menu instead of using a menu that actually works well on a controller.

Re:Just sold mine

[funky49]

Dear sir,

You need to buy a new couch... or get a bean bag chair or something.

I don't know why people want a "war"...

[Anonymous Coward]

...if a platform wins the console war, we all lose. Look at the behaviour of clear frontrunners (Nintendo in the 80s, followed by Sony) and when there was console dominated these companies behaved like complete asses towards their users. If a console "wins" then we look forward to licensed shovelware and price fixing as the only option.

Having competitors at least keeps these people remotely honest.

Dated thinking

[njfuzzy]

I really think that the whole idea of a console war is dated.

There was a time when this was an issue. When disposable incomes were lower. When gaming was mostly for kids. When there weren't multiple demographics interested in different kinds of gaming. When a console wasn't also an Internet device and a media (music and movies) device as well.

Now, the game has changed. There is room for an inexpensive console with novelty appeal, health-conscious appeal, and appeal to kids-- and still room for a midrange console with testosterone games for the fratboy crowd-- and still room for a high-end machine with a scary sticker price but very impressive graphics, a blu-ray player, and the occasional hit exclusive game.

Re:Dated thinking

[Mex]

"There is room for an inexpensive console with novelty appeal, health-conscious appeal, and appeal to kids-- and still room for a midrange console with testosterone games for the fratboy crowd-- and still room for a high-end machine with a scary sticker price but very impressive graphics, a blu-ray player, and the occasional hit exclusive game."

In a rich family, maybe. Average people have a hard time justifying all those dollars.

Re:Dated thinking

[njfuzzy]

You have understood me almost exactly incorrectly. I am not talking about a single home, I am talking about the market. Specifically, that the market can easily bear all three products, because there are different kinds of consumers (homes) that want each. The cases where someone wants more than one are just gravy towards my argument.

I might even go so far as to say that you made the very error that is causing this discussion. You're confusing "I don't want to buy all three" with "people, collectively, won't buy all three". It's a bit self-centered, really, and not all all how markets work.

Re:Dated thinking

[seriesrover]

Your point is well made. The Wii is perfect for my 3 (primary school aged) daughters - the P3 or xbox is wasted on them - I doubt you could even get 'Cooking Mama' for either of those high end consoles! Not only that but all their friends equally love the Wii and none of them could care less about graphics, frames\sec etc.

Now for my colleagues at work its a completely different story - they want something high end

And as for me, I'm thinking about a Mac Mini as our entertainment console.

Nintendo increasing Wii production

[LKM]

What's more, Nintendo has increased Wii production to currently 1.8 million per month.

That's 21.6 million per year, or over 100 million in just 5 years. If they keep this up, they might even catch up with the PS2!

Re:Nintendo increasing Wii production

[Anonymous Coward]

Who gives a shit, it's a fucking fad - people will wise up sooner or later.

Re:Nintendo increasing Wii production

[LKM]

That comment would have made sense a year ago. Today, it's just the sad wish of a fanboy who doesn't yet realize that it won't be granted.

Sony's Advertising

[Frostclaw]

I've been really quite impressed with Sony's advertising of late. It seems to be everywhere, and unlike their previous attempts and their irritating PSP ads, the new PS3 ads are actually "cool". It helps that even several multi-platform titles are appearing with ads showing the PS3 logo at the end. On top of that, the good exclusives are starting to trickle out. I love my 360, but I think I may need to start making some room for a PS3 before the end of 2008. There still arn't enough games out yet for me to buy it right now, but the time is coming.

Where is the swordfighting game for Wii

[MorePower]

What I want to know is, when the hell is someone going to make the sword/lightsaber game for the Wii that we've all been waiting for. This comes up every now and then and the apologists all jump out and say "Errors in the motion sensors add up so you can't make perfect 1 to 1 movements, blah, blah, blah."

Which is all a bunch of BS. OK you can't make perfect 1 to 1 movement with perfectly free movement of the sword, but you don't need to! I've already seen "good enough" control to make the sword/lightsaber game possible!

Go load up Wii Sports. Choose Baseball for 2 players (so you can play around without a pitch coming). Grab the control for the batter and tip/twirl the Wiimote around over your shoulder. Notice how the Mii tips/twirls the bat just like you? Now, just change it from a bat to a sword, move it from over-the-shoulder to waist level in front of the player, and put the camera behind the Mii (KOTOR style). There, you just made the greatest sword game ever without even doing anything clever.

And of course there's bound to be lots of clever stuff you can figure out like motion capturing a bunch of kids playing with fake swords (with wiimotes embedded) so you can map the wiimote acceleration profiles to expected real life movements. Or correcting for the small integration errors whenever the wiimote happens to swing past the sensor bar. That's just icing on the cake that makes the control even closer to what's expected.

Yeah the control will never be exactly 1 to 1. Olympic fencers will be pissed off that they can't get the millimeter perfect movements they use. Everyone else will be wildly flailing their swords with big broad movements so as long a the sword goes left when they swing left it will be fine. The players' hand/eye coordination will adjust to what the game will actually do. Players already adjust to controls that are much less intuitive/realistic. Just throw in a few easy "whack the pinata" levels at the beginning and I bet people will subconsciously adjust themselves in no time.

Re:Where is the swordfighting game for Wii

[king-manic]

What I want to know is, when the hell is someone going to make the sword/lightsaber game for the Wii that we've all been waiting for. This comes up every now and then and the apologists all jump out and say "Errors in the motion sensors add up so you can't make perfect 1 to 1 movements, blah, blah, blah." Red Steel, launch title almost. But it was terrible.

Re:Where is the swordfighting game for Wii

[rkanodia]

Nice way to not read the post you replied to at all. Red Steel used 'gesture recognition leads to canned animation', not 'track the movements of the remote'.

Re:Where is the swordfighting game for Wii

[clickety6]

Forget Olympic Fencers on the Wii and precise Star Wars lightsaber battles - give me my broadsword and a decent Conan game with giant many-tentacled things from hell - and a few human opponents. You don't need accuracy then, just a good swing of the broadsword and a wipe with the Nunchuck to get the gore and guts off your face ready for the next battle ;-)

Re:Where is the swordfighting game for Wii

[Scudsucker]

Yah. Players might have to slow the speed of their movements, but that would help emphasize some technique vs flailing around. Made me think of the knife fighting in Dune*, where combatants would fight with shields that would block anything moving faster than 9m/s, to protect the wearer from ranged weapons, but the fighters wouldn't be able to strike too fast or they wouldn't be able to penetrate their opponents shield.

*It's been at least 10 years since I've read Dune, so don't sue me if I'm misunderrememberating.

Re:Where is the swordfighting game for Wii

[stephen70]

I chose the PS3 because i hoped to see the motion sensitive controller used to provide a more intuitive and immersive experience than twiddling a couple of thumbsticks, or trying to use a mouse keyboard setup.

So far the developers have managed to figure out how to do tilt steering with the controller this is fun, balancing in some games , and a few sometimes amusing addons in other games, most of these are simple to implement.

But there is a whole science to understanding the movement signals from the controllers akin to voice recognition or avionics in aircraft and the developers dont seem to be able to take full advantage of the posibilities. This should be a area ripe for exploration, to develop games which are instantly intuitive and fun to play, using the controler for movement should be as obvious as recognising your self in a mirror, the player should instantly recognise how their actions are associated with the character in a gameworld thus drawing them into the game.

It could be waving around a sword , pointing a pistol ,using motion to unbalance an oponent in a fighting game, pretending to throw objects, pointing the controller the way your character should look, leaning the controller like it's a bicycle, there are many posibilities of ways to map natural motion to gameplay in intuitive ways. The Wii and PS3 motion sensors have considerably greater scope for immersive gameplay than the old thumbstick only games of the past, pitty developers are so slow to realise it - read on if oyu would like to know why i think this is so>>.

The other reason we fail to see better use of motion in games is that the human mind after many years of playing thumbstick based games remaps it's motor cortex from arm movements into thumb movements, unfortunatly hardcore players loose the ability to move their arms properly.

Some find it very difficult to rehabilitate themselves to use their arms again as their brain has to relearn and remap to use their arms. Sadly many developers/reviewers etc within the games industry suffer from thumbstick syndrome. Worse still they fail to realise that unlike themselves most casual gamers are actually very capable with motion sensing.

The result is that they completly fail to understand casual gamers abilitys and cant understand how to make games for them, I hope to see this change now PS3 and Wii are available. The game industry needs to get people from their target casual gamer market NOT experienced gamers who are suffering from thumbstick syndrome. They then should put in effort to make games for the masses who dont suffer from thumbstick syndrome.

By all means provide options for so thumbstick players can play without motion support, effort should be made to let them enjoy playing in their limited way, but please dont let them hold back the progress of better motion support in games.

The Wii's dirty little secert.

[LWATCDR]

I hate to even post this because it could cause many "hard core" gamers and teenage boys that currently like the Wii to toss it in the trash.
The Wii is still a big hit and is still the thing for Christmas this year. My wife is on several scrapbooking message boards. This of sort of like slashdot for moms. Guess what they are all trying to find for there kids this Christmas? It isn't the PS3. Now for the really bad news. The women on these boards love the Wii! Some of them are "test" playing it themselves. Top it off with the fact that one of the favorite games for these women is Guitar Hero III.

Re:The Wii's dirty little secert.

[MikeBabcock]

Attachment rate is a big deal though. Nintendo only profits so much from selling 3 games with each system. What they need is to engage those soccer moms with game after game they want to buy. If they're perfectly happy with Guitar Hero and Wii Sports for the next 3 years, Nintendo loses out big time.

Re:The Wii's dirty little secert.

[DeepHurtn!]

How do they lose out big time? They've still made a profit, both off of the three games they did sell and the machine itself.

This isn't an either/or proposition. Nintendo has succeeded in both capturing the majority of the gaming audience as well as expanding the overall gaming market. They're happy to sell the machine and three games to someone if that someone wouldn't have bought *any* machine last generation. This irritates a few self-proclaimed "hardcore gamers" who derive altogether too much of their self-esteem from their hardcoredness. But Nintendo is not losing out; on the contrary, alone in this generation they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Re:The Wii's dirty little secert.

[LWATCDR]

I think the attachment rate will go up as more and more games come out. Take a look at the DS. Lost of adults/casual gamers have those and GBAs.
Take a look at the "Must have" list for the Wii. I am seeing more and more titles that people will buy for the Wii and keep. If the soccer moms like the games and then the kids find games they like it becomes a huge win.
When Nintendo came out with the DS I thought that was the DUMBEST idea ever. I figured Sony was going to eat there lunch. I was so wrong.
When Nintendo was talking about the Wii I thought well that may be interesting but the PS3 is just going run away and hide. After I saw the lines at E3 I changed my mind.
The Wii doesn't have the graphics of the PS3 or the 360 but that just doesn't matter. It has some very good games and is fun.

IBM

[flymolo]

I think the biggest winner in this console war is IBM. They make the chips for all three consoles. With the pretty competitive market they are selling a lot of CPU, and getting handed a lot of research dollars for die shrinks. I also think this market which is a win for IBM and a loss for attach rate.

Re:IBM

[Ang31us]

I completely agree on your IBM point...they are definitely the biggest winners in this console generation.

As for attach rate, I would argue that a low attach rate is actually a good thing. Dating back to the Atari 2600 generation and in every subsequent video game market (including the PC) there has been waaaay too much sovelware out there. If developers make good games, they will make good money. If they don't, they can expect to lose money...and I don't feel badly for them at all; they deserve to go out of business.

Re:IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Dating back to the Atari 2600 generation and in every subsequent video game market (including the PC) there has been waaaay too much sovelware out there.

I disagree. I STILL play "Custer's Revenge" on a regular basis.

Re:IBM

[Falladir]

I think my roommate's Wii had an ATI logo on it.

Wii won't scale

[kabdib]

A long-time gamer household, we have a 360 and a Wii (and a bunch of older systems). We have three Wii titles (including the one that came with the box) and it hasn't been turned on in months. The 360 gets daily use, and we have about 20 titles.

A friend of mine, also a 360 owner, just bought a Wii. I'll be interested to see how long the system remains active, and how many titles he buys.

Re:Wii won't scale

[Rayonic]

A friend of mine, also a 360 owner, just bought a Wii. I'll be interested to see how long the system remains active, and how many titles he buys.

More importantly, how many of the Wii games that he buys are Nintendo titles? 3rd party publishers are getting the impression that people buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games, and that's that.

Re:Wii won't scale

[theantipop]

And I know of at least one household where the opposite holds true. I don't see how 30 people saying this over and over in internet forums holds sway over reality at large.

Re:Wii won't scale

[seebs]

Sounds like baby duck syndrome; you're sticking with what you're used to.

Maybe if you, you know, got some of the incredible games that have come out in the "months" since you last tried it, you might enjoy it? I mean, just a thought -- I've found that systems I don't own any games for don't get much play, too.

Re:Wii won't scale

[ElleyKitten]

The best Wii games have come out in the past couple of months. Try Metroid, or Mario Galaxy, or Zak and Wiki, or the new Fire Emblem (I don't know what genres you like).

Game consoles always start a little slow with awesome games. I remember when Mario 64 was the only good game for the DS. But, it picked up and now there are lots of awesome games for it. The Wii's actually doing quite a bit better on games than the DS was doing a year after launch. I think it'll be just fine.

Re:Wii won't scale

[buffer-overflowed]

See, I'm the opposite. My 360 gets no use, and the Wii gets a ton. I have 7 360 games and about 20 Wii Games.

What's the point of these anecdotes? Is there one? Do they even mean anything?

One happy camper

[Joker1980]

Im not really interested in the numbers of it, all i know is that for the first time in a long time im utterly spoiled for choice. im currently muddling through, the witcher (PC), gears of wars (pc), Assasins creed (360), Halo 3 (360), Metroid and Mario for the Wii to name a few. With Mass effect and unreal tournament 3 coming soon and a whole host of 2008 titles (such as GTA), i for one am an extremly happy camper.

Re:Wiiiii! needs more casual games.

[trdrstv]

if Wii owners don't keep buying games

It would be very possible. I got a wii about 2 months ago and I've bought a single wii game since then. I want to buy more, I eagerly scan the videogame store shelf every week, but the games tend to be underwhelming at best.

It's Ironic that Nintendo captured the casual market and yet there are very few games for them, they either fall under the "core-gamer category" (RE4, Metroid3, etc...) or the "Shovelware" (Too many to mention actually) category. I own a Wii with something like 15 Wii games, and 2 dozen VC games. I love it, and play it often. My parents enjoyed WiiSports so much they wanted one of their own for when they have company over. They are as "non-gamer" as can be, but are not opposed to buying games anymore as long as they appeal to them. To date they only have 3 games (WiiSports, WiiPlay, and Tiger Woods 08) and 1 VC game (PacMan). Occasionally I bring over Rayman RR, or Excitetruck and we play them a little, but that's it. They are both retired, have time and money available to them, but there is simply not a selection of games they find appealing.

Nintendo is moving units to casual gamers, but they (and 3rd parties) need to recognize this largely untapped market and deliver some games they want to buy! Guitar Hero Helps, so does DDR, and Karaoke games, but what about SuDoKu, or NY Times Crossword puzzles...

Xbox 360 for gaming is dead

[YukonTech]

I purchased an xbox 360 at launch, along with a 37 inch LCD HDTV, I played Kameo and even a couple sports games, but honestly they are all the same old games over and over, and I find my xbox quite boring. if its not a 1st person shooter, its a third person shooter. I have to wonder am I the only one who played PGR3 for less than 20 minutes, and stilll foudn that long and painful? Don't get me wrong the 360 is a decent machine Xbox live shows promise, Maybe i'm gettin old but I dont feel like getting "pwnz0rd" by loud mouthed little punks, just because they can play 10 hours a day. Now my 360 is primarily used as a DVD player, and music player. Honestly i'm stuill completely baffled that there is no wifi on the 360, that fact alone was enough for me to cancel XBox Live.

My wii on the other hand has not gone a single week without being used as a gaming machine Zelda, Wario, Sports, Mario 64, excitebike, Hell even punch out has provided me more entertainment than any of my xbox games the last few months.

But to each their own, I suppose if you Really Really like shooters XBOX is heaven.

Re:Xbox 360 for gaming is dead

[Bryansix]

Did you ever play Forza2? Dirt? Those games are not shooters and they are both awesome. It's not just the graphics of the 360 that are better then the Wii, the physics are way deeper and more true to life. There is not and will never be a driving game to rival Dirt on the Wii.

Re:Xbox 360 for gaming is dead

[buffer-overflowed]

I'm in the same boat as the grandparent. Some of us don't like realistic racers. Just. not. interested. I do on occassion like the arcadey stuff though.

I'm not a fan of FPSes on a console, outside Metroid Prime 3. RTSes and PC ports I prefer to play on a PC because of the cheaper price per game and the modding community. I'm not a big fan of over the shoulder 3rd person shooters either.

This means the only 360 game I've really enjoyed is dead rising, and I've gotten a lot more play time out of the Wii. In fact in order or usage total, between me and my 3 roommates, it's PS2 > Wii > 360. The PS2 beats out the Wii only because it's basically a Guitar Hero box at present.

How many players per PC?

[tepples]

Games aside, I could build a computer that did everything the PS3 does, hook up a controller to it, and have the exact same experience.

How many controllers can you hook up to your PC with TV output? Sure, you can connect four through the USB hub, but too many PC games will read only one controller. This is because their multiplayer modes are designed for the LAN or Internet use case, in which each player has purchased his own PC and his own copy of the game. That doesn't work too well for households with multiple children or for family parties. So a family that already has one PC can buy a PS3 for $500, three extra SIXAXIS controllers for $150, and $60 per game, or it can buy three extra PCs for $1500, three extra monitors for $600, and $160 for four copies of a game.

Other than Midway Arcade Treasures, what games do you recommend for a PC, a TV-sized monitor, and four gamepads?

Re:How many players per PC?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they can buy a wii for a fraction of either.

But you didn't get his point.

Wi, Wii, Wiii

[tepples]

When does the Wii become "everyone who has one has one, and everyone who wanted one has one...", where naturally the curve will level off? More than likely, this will happen when the Wiii comes out in 2011. By then, the Wii will have sold 100 million units (1 million a month for the first year and 2 million a month for the next four years).

Wii Replay value vs. others

[phishen]

It seems that a lot of people posting here have a Wii and another console as well as a PC. It also seems that many are saying that they haven't turned their Wii on in a while and use their other console and PC regularly. I game on a Wii and a PC, and I can agree with them for the most part, but in my eyes the main reason for daily use of a 360 or PS3 is the online capability. Most Wii games that I have played (Zelda, Metroid, etc...) have been good games for one long play through, but not much else after that. A game like Resistance or Halo has daily replay value and offers new ventures on each gaming session. I believe that as soon as some more competitive online-capable games come out for Wii (Mario Kart, Smash Bros) the Wii will give gamers that same want for daily use that many get from their daily session of Halo.

The term "IP" is a seductive mirage

[tepples]

And WiiSports hardly has any IP in it, the characters are Mii's that the players created themselves. Of course Wii Sports has no Internet Protocol support; it's not an Internet game. I'll assume that you meant "intellectual property" and rephrase your question, expanding the definition of "intellectual property" in place:

And WiiSports hardly has any [exclusive rights in works of authorship, exclusive rights in inventions, exclusive rights in identifying marks, and exclusive rights in confidential ideas] in it; the characters are Mii's that the players created themselves.

Of works, inventions, marks, and ideas, which are you referring to? And are you referring to the works, inventions, marks, and ideas themselves, or to the exclusive rights therein? If you have trouble answering this question, you see how confusing the term "intellectual property" can be.

Sony and MS would kill for an IP like Mario. Here is Mario's IP:

>nslookup mario.nintendo.com
192.195.204.102

Re:The term "IP" is a seductive mirage

[cowscows]

Hey wow. Semantically dissecting a comment that I spent all of 90 seconds on sure does make you sound smart.

You know exactly what I meant. Thanks for being a douchebag, it really contributes a lot to the discussion.

Re:The term "IP" is a seductive mirage

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe in the future you should be more precise about what you're talking about.

Look at this thread - Wii wins.

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking at the topics in this thread, basically every one is about the Wii - both good and bad. Sony, Microsoft? They have consoles, those consoles play games. Nintendo has an unique product, and everyone knows it - whether or not it is your cup of tea is another issue altogether.

My Wii had collected a bit of dust until recent weeks. However, I picked up Mario Galaxy this week, and it's by far the best game I've played on any console since probably about 1993. It's a throwback to the days of the classic platformer, pulled off brilliantly in a 3D world, entirely descent graphics and sound throughout, and use of the controls is intuitive and non-gimmicky.

So, Wii - passing fad? Unable to attract the hardcore gamers? I don't believe either at this point - if the Wii can get two games as solid and polished as Mario Galaxy a year, it's going to dominate this generation of the console race.

The problem is scale and dominance

[WillAffleckUW]

We look at game console markets as if what exists today will be the case in the future.

We know this is not true, however.

In the future, we will have more HDTV, games will adapt to feed the growing casual gamer market, MMO games will figure how to be console-based, the interface of portable game devices will increase in game connections, and a more mobile population will be served somehow.

Even the Wii itself is just a placeholder for the future game consoles that Nintendo will make. Dominance by sports games will likely not go away, due to the growing availability of HDTV sets among sports game players, and that market will be larger. But casual gamers will start expecting connectivity and games you can start, put down, and come back to - possibly with new, fresh, different content.

Light saber and fencing games will increase, due to the Wii influence.

Fun multi-player party games will increase, as HDTV sets get used at parties - let's invite everyone over to play Doctor Mario: Galactic Surgeon and DJ Dance Instructor! Pause features where you shift who is playing what will be more typical.

The question is not which console. The question is what will the next consoles be able to do.

So where's the killer app?

[unsigned integer]

I suppose Xbox360 has Halo3 (not my thing).

What's the Wii's killer app? Once the newness of the controller has worn off, that is. I've browsed the titles / reviews and I don't see anything that I have to have.

Does the PS3 have one? I thought it was going to be Heavenly Sword - but while fun, not a must have game.

The console that will win will be the one that has the most awesome-must-have games. Xbox is a serious contender given that they have been paying big money for their-platform-only titles (Mass Effect, Halo*).

Dunno. Maybe I'm a jaded gamer. 24 years of video game playing - there's not a lot that surprises me. I still don't see the draw of any of the current platforms.

The only thing that tickles my fancy is a PS3 because I can still play the older PS2 titles, now rendered better by the ps3 80gb in software (not the 60gb chip/hardware). Oh, plus blu-ray player ability for the widescreeen LCD TV I picked up. The downside is that it's a blu-ray player which means you take a side in the ongoing HD-DVD/Blu-ray debacle.

Re:So where's the killer app?

[trdrstv]

I suppose Xbox360 has Halo3 (not my thing).

Halo and Gears of War (before it went to PC)

What's the Wii's killer app?

WiiSports. Yes, WiiSports. People are paying $250 to play that game, so it is a Killer app.

Does the PS3 have one?

Not yet. They keep getting delayed, going Multi-console, or haven't been given a formalized schedule yet. MGS4 and FFXIII get all the press, but God of War 3, or Shadow of the Colossus 2 will move some units; they just aren't on the schedule yet.

It's unfortunate since the PS3 doesn't have anything to really define it yet. It has good games (and some good exclusives), but none that have the draw to get people to buy the platform the day that specific game comes out. They really need something like a Halo, or Zelda, or Final Fantasy to ship soon.

Re:So where's the killer app?

[DeepHurtn!]

Lots of people would consider Mario Galaxy a killer app -- that sucker will be selling for a long, long time.

(I'm not a Wii owner, btw, but I want to play Galaxy real bad!)

Re:So where's the killer app?

[unsigned integer]

> WiiSports. Yes, WiiSports. People are paying $250 to play that game, so it is a Killer app.

I suppose so. It's hard for me to believe that such a /novelty/ game is garnering that much attention, but I suppose you're right. I would think "The Force Unleashed" would be a bigger draw for all the Star Wars nerds + friends who really want to swing a lightsaber and shit.

I think a FF title would probably do it for the PS3 - all the bells and whistles used on the PS3 for FF could make for a stunning game. (I've never played it FF at all, so I'm just theorizing).

Re:So where's the killer app?

[seebs]

Super Mario Galaxy.

The thing is, you're just plain missing the point. The newness of the controller wearing off is a good thing. The thing that makes the Wiimote the best thing to happen to console gaming in the last fifteen years is not that it's hard to get used to, but that you're used to it almost instantly.

The goal is not to think about controls; it's to think about games instead of controls, and that's where the Wiimote wins.

I've been playing console games since the Intellivision. This is the best controller I've ever used, not because of "newness" but because it's transparent to me; I just move my little guy without really thinking about it.

Re:So where's the killer app?

[revengebomber]

The only thing that tickles my fancy is a PS3 because I can still play the older PS2 titles, now rendered better by the ps3 80gb in software (not the 60gb chip/hardware). That's amazing! Especially considering that the 80gb still uses a hardware Graphics Synthesizer chip (while emulating the Emotion Engine).

Re:So where's the killer app?

[unsigned integer]

Yes, you are technically correct. My point really was : (quoting now from wikipedia)

"... system software updates have improved software backwards compatibility and added support for upscaling of PlayStation and PlayStation 2 games up to 1080p resolution. Upscaling can improve picture quality in some situations."

Which is a result of ditching the Emotion Engine hardware in the 80GB PS3 model and a benefit of doing it in software - as opposed to the no-longer-manufactured 60GB PS3 which had the EE chip.

Is there anything else you'd like to nitpick and contribute nothing meaningful to?

Re:So where's the killer app?

[Emetophobe]

The goal is not to think about controls; it's to think about games instead of controls, and that's where the Wiimote wins.

My problem is that a lot of Wii games have really spotty controls, and I can't help but think of the controls when movements don't register properly. I'd love for the controls to be perfect so that I can focus on the games instead, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The controls seem to be perfect for games like Resident Evil 4, but for some Wii games I find myself wishing I could use a classic controllers for higher accuracy.

Re:So where's the killer app?

[seebs]

The spotty controls wouldn't necessarily be better on a "classic" controller -- there have been spotty controls on those, too, on many occasions.

I agree that the new controller may be a bit harder to code for, but... Look at reviews of, say, Medal of Honor 2, or Super Mario Galaxy, or play SMG. It is not hard to get absolutely flawless control.

Re:Wiiiii! 1st - 360 2nd - PS3rd place.

[trdrstv]

This sales this generation will end with (1) Wii (2) 360 (3) PS3. The only real drama is whether the PS3 can scrape into 2nd place ahead of the 360.

The 360 being all but dead in Japan will help Sony a lot, and though it's not impossible for the PS3 to overtake the 360 it's not all that probable.

By the numbers, the PS3 needs to outsell the 360 by 200,000 units every month until 2011 just to catch up. At which point I'm sure MS will already be talking about the next X-Box.

Re:The Wii's attachment Rate...

[trdrstv]

Attachment rate is a big deal though. Nintendo only profits so much from selling 3 games with each system. What they need is to engage those soccer moms with game after game they want to buy. If they're perfectly happy with Guitar Hero and Wii Sports for the next 3 years, Nintendo loses out big time.

Not for Nintendo. They are still selling to people who wouldn't consider their products before. If a casual gamer buys 1 or 2 games per year, that's still 1 or 2 (or 5-12 over the life of the system) that they wouldn't have sold before. Considering they make money every step of the way, this can only be a win.

Also I posted this several times, but the attach rate is pretty low due to there being a higher concentration of "casual gamers" buying the system, and a a very high concentration of "hard core games" being published. If there were more titles that actually fit the tastes of the audience buying the system, game sales would naturally improve.

Reality called...

[Schnoogs]

...it wanted to inform him that the race IS NOT open to anyone. Sony is at a distinct disadvantage at this point. The likelihood of it surpassing the 360 isn't all that great...the likelihood of it surpassing the Wii almost seems impossible. In terms of software sales the 360 is doing incredibly well. The PS3 is not only selling the fewest consoles but its existing owners aren't really buying that many titles despite having been released at roughly the same time as the Wii.

Die By The Sword!

[wikthemighty]

The Wii is desperately missing a game like (or even a port of) Die By The Sword...

Wii would like to play....STILL!

[AWhistler]

After one year, WHY is it still so hard to find a Wii if it's still in such a tight race with the other consoles? I can find the others any day of the week, but unless I have a posse out looking for one, I can't get one.

Re:Wii would like to play....STILL!

[seebs]

Er, because they're still selling out, now something like 1.8M consoles a month worldwide?

The tightness of the race is partially due to Nintendo not being big enough to scale up instantaneously -- and not foolhardy enough to spend the money it would take to do it immediately.

Re:Wii would like to play....STILL!

[AWhistler]

I would agree with you, except....a year is hardly "immediately".

Re:Wii would like to play....STILL!

[seebs]

They've been raising production for that whole year; it was 1M/month originally, up to 1.5M/month last spring, and now up to 1.8M/month. They said a while back it takes about 5 months for a change in production levels to take effect, so they have to guess 5 months in advance, and they seem to guess sort of conservatively.

Wii does not need a killer app.

[jma05]

A killer app is what makes people who would not other wise buy a console, buy it. That in turn opens up a wide install base so that other game developers can take advantage. When a console is selling at the rate of Wii (not to mention its low price which does not require big justifications), it is a moot point. It just needs to be a console that has a little something for everyone, which it already seems to be doing. Naturally, when that happens, not everyone gets spades of what they like in the beginning. This is unlike other consoles which have a more focussed audience.

Wii - FPS Console fo choice.

[trdrstv]

You said that the Wii mote is good for some things, but not for others. I'm pretty sure one of those things at which it excels is FPS games. Playing Metroid, I actually found the nun chuck to be much better than wasd for movement, and the wiimote was pretty much as good as a mouse for aiming. The only downfall that I can see (in games where this would be necessary) is that switching weapons may not be as easy as hitting the number keys.

Actually the Wiimote can give you enough options to switch between weapons if you use the D-pad. I'm personally not fond of being able to cart along every weapon you ever picked up in a game. Games like Gears of War make you decide which guns are more important to carry at any given level and those choices are important. If you have the Metroid control Scheme and use the D-pad to select from one of 4 different weapons, I think it would work fine.

Oh, yeah and I agree that Analog is a ton better than WASD. This is why I prefer Metroid controls over PC controls for FPS. WASD sucks and though the Wiimote isn't quite as sensitive as a mouse (but in MoH: Heroes 2 for the Wii can be) it is close enough that the Wiimote takes the win. Add in the visceral feel when you rip off an Alien's shield with the "grapple gun" (that can't be duplicated anywhere else) before you blast them and you have an epic Win.

Wii = why?

[Bryansix]

Why must everybody buy a Wii? The thing is horrible. I mean I tried one, the actions on the screen were no where near what I was doing with the remote. The technology exists but Nintendo didn't use it. And the graphics? Well if you are into anime or cartoons then fine. But if you like realism then don't expect much. I liken my experience with the Wii to about as much fun as I get from moving my mouse over my computer screen while dragging selection boxes. In other words, it wasn't fun at all. A real gamer would never say that the Wii is better then the PS3 or the 360 or even the PS2 or the original XBOX. I think the reason it does so well is that people really are THAT DUMB. They think "well I can grab this console for so much less money". They never take the quality of the thing into consideration. It may be true that you can pick up a Wii game faster then a 360 but the learning curve isn't that much of an issue. Trust me, don't buy a Wii. You will regret it if you do. If you don't regret it, you just don't know what your missing.

Re:Wii = why?

[seebs]

You've pretty much totally missed the point.

It's not supposed to be 1:1; it's just supposed to be a reasonably intuitive interface.

Who are you to make proclamations about a "real gamer"? I've been playing video games for thirty years, on pretty much every platform, I've got a PS3, I've got a PS2 and a gamecube, I've got a dedicated multicore machine I got to run video games on, and when I'm not too busy with work, I game 40-60 hours a week.

The Wii is the best gaming console I've ever had. Seems to me the person missing something is you.

Re:Wii = why?

[trdrstv]

And the graphics? Well if you are into anime or cartoons then fine. But if you like realism then don't expect much.

How about the realism of swinging the remote as a Golf club? Tiger Woods 08 helped straiten out my regular golf swing. (I still slice, but not as much or often)

A real gamer would never say that the Wii is better then the PS3 or the 360 or eventhe PS2 or the original XBOX. I think the reason it does so well is that people really are THAT DUMB. They think "well I can grab this console for so much less money". They never take the quality of the thing into consideration. It may be true that you can pick up a Wii game faster then a 360 but the learning curve isn't that much of an issue. Trust me, don't buy a Wii. You will regret it if you do. If you don't regret it, you just don't know what your missing.

Sorry, but for many things the Wii simply IS better than the PS360. Not to say they each don't have their strenghts but the Wii for Sports games (Tennis, Golf) is superior to anything that can be done by pressing a button. Now the FPS controls are coming into focus with Metroid 3 and MoH Heroes 2 and that will make the Wii version the prefered version of future FPSes. You don't sound like the kind of person who would play a Harry Potter game, but if you did, the Wii version used the Wiimote as his wand to cast spells with motion controls. That's another level of immersion that isn't possible on the other systems. Now a Game like Gears of War wouldn't be possible on the Wii (in its current form anyway) but that doesn't mean it doesn't have good games, or even the best version of multiplatform games.

MOD PARENT UP

[LrdDimwit]

Before the next gen started, game sales in Japan were on a fairly steady -- but slow -- decline. Interviews on the topic would frequently contain prophecies of doom, saying if nothing changed, gaming as we know it might just end. How is this turned around? Well, if your reliable base isn't so reliable anymore, then you find new customers. This is what Nintendo has spent a couple years figuring out how to do. The attach rate being important is a symptom of the take-a-loss-to-move-consoles strategy, yes, but also a consequence of the idea that there's only so many gamers out there. Nintendo is making the pie bigger, not trying to squeeze more blood from the stone.

If you haven't seen Zack & Wiki, go look

[seebs]

Just a reminder, for all the people who loved Monkey Island or Grim Fandango, or any other point-and-click adventure:

Capcom did a point and click for Wii, called Zack & Wiki. It's not selling well, but it is an absolutely awesome game. Don't mind the appearance of being a little cartoony; this is a serious, challenging, adventure game.

Console wars winner, Wii do.

[MrCopilot]

Ok, One by One. The Wii doesn't have enough titles.

According to GameSpot 674 games. Sure some of them not shipping until next year, but most slated before Xmas.
http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?type=games&platform=1031&mode=all&sort=views&dlx_type=all&sortdir=asc&page=1
To say Nothing of the VC Games available.

The Wii was fun at first but it wears off, mine has been off for months.
You have no children. Or no WiFi. That's where the wii shines. Internet access and portal pages full of games and video content. Keeps a wii in service daily since launch.

The Wii is a fad
Yeah like console gaming, or the Gameboy, DS, or Pokemon, or Guitar Hero.

No LightSaber Game
You may have a point there. No way LucasArts is going to pass up this opportunity to cash in again. I'm thinking Jedi Wii Academy

This round, Nintendo Played the game without missing a step. Meanwhile Sony stumbled, not Rumbled, badly aped Nintendo control, Overpriced, Then rumbled, Then Cut Price, Screwed Compatibility. Microsoft, coyly moved to #2. Next round No Halo from Bungie.

All this and there are still no Wiis on the Walmart Shelf for more than a day.

Re:Console wars winner, Wii do.

[MrCopilot]

Just reread that list, It does in fact include VC games.

Re:Console wars winner, Wii do.

[Shadow99_1]

"Microsoft, coyly moved to #2. Next round No Halo from Bungie."

I think you need to reread the announcements from Bungie... They have no interest in leaving Halo dead after this installment. It may not be quite the Halo we've seen next time around, but it will continue the franchise... It's also likely to stay with MS as they are committed to MS for the time being.

Re:Console wars winner, Wii do.

[MrCopilot]

I read the announcement intently. Both of them in fact.

MS keeps Halo, and is required to give Bungie first crack at new installments. I just think MS will push it faster than Bungie will want to produce and it will get shovelled off to someone else and therefore suck.

I like the Wii, Hate the controller

[Emetophobe]

I currently own Zelda: Twilight Princess, Resident Evil 4, Metroid Prime 3 and I just bought Super Mario Galaxy yesterday. I also own 3 or 4 virtual console games.

Anyway, I'm starting to get really sick of the Wii-mote. When I'm bowling in Wii Sports, sometimes I'll wind my arm back, but in-game my arm does the complete opposite, and then I have to fumble around to get it to the proper position. I notice this issue with other games aswell and I really don't think it it has to do with my lack of Wii-mote skills.

When I'm playing Zelda or Metroid Prime 3, I sometimes have to do the same hand or arm movements atleast once to get it to register properly. When I'm in a fight, the last thing I want to worry about is the controls messing up. I was playing Metroid Prime 3 last night and on several occasions I found myself wishing I could use a regular controller. I find it extremely hard to enjoy a game when I'm constantly fighting with the controls. I don't think I'll ever be able to master any Wii games as the controls seem to be very hit and miss. The only Wii game so far that I've thoroughly enjoyed was Resident Evil 4. The controls felt perfect and the game was simply amazing.

Most of the time the controls are decent on the Wii-mote, but it's those times when it messes up that it really distracts me from the game and makes me wish I could use a regular controller.

If motion control really takes off...

[jollyreaper]

Then motion controllers can be retrofitted for the 360. It would only take one killer game to drive this, the same way that the guitar hero games convinced people to shell out the big bucks for guitar controllers.

The difference we're seeing with the Wii's is the whole design philosophy, the same way the PSX designs were mandated by Sony, no conventional side-scrollers, everything must be 3D whether it looks good or not.

I was very intrigued by what I heard about the Wii. I could never find one so I opted to get a 360. This is from someone who owned a PSX and a Dreamcast but sat out the whole PS2 and Xbox eneration. I upgraded the 15 year old TV to a flatscreen and got a 360 and wow, it feels like a whole new world. Skipping a generation and losing touch with the state of the art really helps to bring back the childlike awe again. Shit, I didn't know they could do that! Of course there are a pile of games that look like crap, a number of ones that look like they deserve high ratings but are not my cup of tea, and there's also a good number of highly rated games that do seem right up my alley.

Right now, I don't see very many compelling games on the Wii. I hope this changes. Nothing drives progress like healthy competition. With Sony flaming out, the Xbox needs a healthy rival.

I do not understand???

[CalicoDreams]

I can not understand how anyone can believe that the Wii is in the process of losing or is going to start losing market share. Nintendo have traditionally released a certain type of game for their consoles; the only change in the system is the way the user interacts with the console. If anything, Nintendo has gone from being forecast as the potential loser of the console wars (with the gamecube) to market leader for the next generation consoles.

I find it interesting that many people find the Wii to be "not what they want in a console". The Wii is a classic nintendo console that aims to satisfy a certain market. If you don't like Zelda, Pokemon, Mario, Metroid or the generic cartoonish games and puzzle games that Nintendo and its 3rd party developers focus on. Then look elsewhere but do not fool yourself into thinking that because you, the only important consumer in all the world, doesn't appreciate the Wii or its games will mean that it is destined to fail.

I personally think that seeking to play the latest and greatest games will always be constricted to the PC market. For instance, crysis has just been released and as far as i know is unable to be utilized by any of the next generation consoles. If you are looking for a graphic intensive game your only option is the PC.

A question: how have the *new* games of the PS3, Xbox360 and Wii changed from the last generation of consoles?

If you answer only refers to graphics mabye you should reconsider exactly what you want from you console and your gaming experience. To me, there are prettier things in the world than pixels.

Ghostbusters

[phorm]

Actually, I think that the new upcoming ghostbusters game might do quite well for the Wii. My buddy was over recently and showed off a bunch of videos he had on his laptop of the game. Another friend's comment was, "it will be kinda lame if it's a console game." The first friend mentioned that it would likely be out for Wii, at which point they both pretty much agreed that the Wiimote would be a real winner with this game.

Re:Ghostbusters

[KDR_11k]

I don't think the Wii version is specifically designed for the system, it's just a port of the PS2 version. While it's possible that this doesn't suck the likelyhood is very, VERY low.

Re: 60 gig PS3 still upscales PS2 games.

[trdrstv]

"... system software updates have improved software backwards compatibility and added support for upscaling of PlayStation and PlayStation 2 games up to 1080p resolution. Upscaling can improve picture quality in some situations."

Which is a result of ditching the Emotion Engine hardware in the 80GB PS3 model and a benefit of doing it in software - as opposed to the no-longer-manufactured 60GB PS3 which had the EE chip.

So long as you don't enable progressive-scan in the game (or have old Firmware), the 60 gig model will upscale PS1/PS2 games. It actually does a pretty good job of it too.

Re:Wiiiii! needs more casual games.

[jmke]

It's Ironic that Nintendo captured the casual market and yet there are very few games for them exactly! Well said, the Wii is a "casual gaming" multiplayer console, that's how they marketed it, in every PR stunt you see the multiplayer hotseat action, but after 1 year we only have VERY FEW games worth their money if you bought the Wii for casual gaming crowd. Rayman Raving Rabbits is a good success, Wii Sports a little less but still okay. Haven't found any other game to add to the list, single player games ala Mario and Metriod are not interesting at all for multiplay, and even for Single play, there are much better games out on other platforms that you shouldn't waste money for the Wii. Ordered Guitar Hero III now for the Wii, hope this will be multiplayable and enjoyable (even with Mono sound :/) but it's a multiplatform game and not really unique for the Wii. So far i'm pretty disappoint by the lack of party games released since last year; and even after 1 year, the current party games are becoming quickly too repetitive and boring, even for the none gaming crowd. Wario Smooth Moves was quite a mistake to buy, it lasted 10min before it was removed and never look at again, ugly graphics, lame games, dumb multiplayer, a disappointment...

Missing the Point...

[vette21man]

Does anyone else agree that it's not just about game sales? Console sales, yes because if you're the general consumer, you're not buying three systems, you're choosing one gaming system to own for the next 3-6 years. Hopefully, you've done enough research to know that your "type" of game is going to be released repeatedly for the system.

The real point is so what if you own 20 Xbox 360 games? Do you play them anymore? To me, the only reason you have more than 6 titles is because you get tired of a game too quickly. The quality of the game has to be higher, with more replay value being key. I went through Resident Evil 4 ~6 times and completed all Ada missions and challenges before calling it quits with the game. Going through a really fun game in 10 hours and letting it collect dust after that is not my idea of a fantastic game. Focus on quality of games, not quantity of them.