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Web Graphic Design for Small Businesses

An anonymous reader writes "I'm a competent geek running a one-man-show for a small business. I do everything IT in this company; servers, email, desktop support, managing Ethernet switches, cash registers, inventory database, and the company website. My boss has asked me to 'punch up' the website to make it more appealing. Although I can hold my own with HTML, PHP and a couple SQL products, graphic design isn't one of my strengths. I'm looking for some advice on how to improve the site without making it overstimulating for the webophobic. It's also important that it conform to ADA accessibility guidelines. In particular, I'm looking for books or tutorial websites that teach the basics of good graphic design — how to make it more appealing without losing the ability to communicate effectively. Also, I would appreciate suggestions for tools to use to make this more efficient (Windows and Linux are both OK)."

377 comments

  1. Get someone else by diskis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a good geek of all arts. But when I try to dabble in graphical design, I always fail spectacularly.
    Get someone with actual talent to do it.

    Do really you think you can train a graphical designer to code with a few book and tutorials, and not get out results fitting for thedailywtf?

    1. Re:Get someone else by diskis · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh, and if you decide to try, remember that you most likely are colorblind. All geeks are.
      Steal what you can't do yourself.

      As I can't color-coordinate my own socks, ready palettes are a godsend :)

      http://www.colourlovers.com/

    2. Re:Get someone else by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is my advice too. I'm good when it comes to technical shit. I can build a computer in my sleep from the parts I have in the box that my feet is propped on. I've coded in just about everything that compiles.

      Now you need something on the back end of a webpage and I can do it, no problem. But I find some many geeks like myself have no talent in graphics arts. And that is what you need. A business webpage needs to run good and you sound like you have that covered. But it also needs to look good and be functional.

      Hire someone that knows what they are doing.

      --

      Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

    3. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Tell him to fuck off. Programming/sysadmin requrires a totally different mindset than graphic design. There are very few people who can do both. Most people who can run servers can design for shit and most people who can design can't program/sysadmin for shit.

    4. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may not be able to turn your IT magic into artistic magic overnight, but two quick solutions come to mind: (1) Research similar sites that already have the look and feel you're going for and peek under the hood, or (2) buy a template or CSS and modify it. Use your skills to your advantage rather than focus on what you can't do.

    5. Re:Get someone else by JoshuaDFranklin · · Score: 1

      Parent is right-on. And if you have a university in town, post a want ad in the art department, students are cheap and often very good. Otherwise, try a high school but be careful of under-18 hour restrictions. Most of them probably have "their own" copies of Dreamweaver and Photoshop, you probably want to buy or give them legit copies to use.

    6. Re:Get someone else by ChadAmberg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Definitely farm it out. Bad graphics will kill a site, and good enough graphics no longer are good enough. Find a skilled professional. And I say this as someone who is absolutely horrible with graphics.
      Since the guy is the one IT guy for a small business, I'm pretty sure the website doesn't have hundreds of pages, so it's not like this should be such a huge job and cost thousands.

    7. Re:Get someone else by Fr33thot · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can hire all the talent you want, but if you don't better define the need, you'll likely fail. You need to know more about what "Punch it up" means. Beyond that, what other marketing venues are in play and how does the site complement these. Getting local talent, whether a student or a pro will be more effective if you know more about what they are looking for. Tell the boss that the entire marketing approach needs to be considered as a whole.

      For ADA compliance, look at contrast, not using color to convey meaning (ex: red items are priority), alt tags on images (reduce your use of images where possible), jump tags to get to (or past) navigation areas, avoid animation. These will get you close to compliance though there are some coding conventions you must adopt. There is plenty of good advice for the google aware to find.

      For the artwork, you need to consider color choice first. Get the book Color Harmony ahref=http://www.amazon.com/Color-Harmony-Guide-Creative-Combinations/dp/1564960668rel=url2html-28773http://www.amazon.com/Color-Harmony-Guide-Creative-Combinations/dp/1564960668> to help decide on a scheme that supports the image the business wants to convey. Once the colors are chosen, do not deviate from them frivolously. A portal or a good css design will make these things easier and if you haven't looked there, do. One good use of an art student is to have a nice logo designed. The art of logo design seems easy enough but trust me on this, you'll save headaches later if you get someone who is trained, especially if the business grows.

      On tools, Adobe makes the best but there are some great OS alternatives like Gimp, Krita, Inkscape and Xara Xtreme that are nipping at Adobe's heals.

    8. Re:Get someone else by jharrisondesign · · Score: 1

      Hello, I am someone else. I'd love to provide you with a proposal to have your website designed. Please give me a call at 863.712.7700 or email me at joel [at] jharrisondesign [dot] com thank you! joel;

    9. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Sure, just blatantly steal someone else's work.

    10. Re:Get someone else by anastasd · · Score: 1

      I agree, the palettes are very useful. There are lots of websites that can help and I recommend this one. http://colorsontheweb.com/colorwizard.asp

    11. Re:Get someone else by GuitarKat · · Score: 1

      Hey! Be careful of what you say! I'm currently finishing a program that does programming (.NET, Oracle, SQL, Java, etc) and it has an 80% drop rate and I'm still there. I'm almost done, going to graduate after this semester. I was doing graphics before, working corportate. I was told that my mind is just more flexible than others... and, of course, I'm going for more design training after this.

      Although, I do love thedailywtf feed. It's fantastic! I'm sure there's a few times where a lot of people here at one time or another has done something to be up on that.

    12. Re:Get someone else by Kinnaird · · Score: 0

      "Negative space"...if you can see it and work with it design will be a snap for you! Function is a given it has to be so good that it seems intuitive, and good form promotes and enhances function. The graphic elements need to be balanced to each other in both weight and colour this is where negative space comes in...if you don't pay careful attention to your ground the design elements will fly off in every direction. Said simple, don't think...SEE. If this is not for you chose a designer who's style you like and don't interfere, 'too many cooks ' spoils the website! Books try Paul Klee 'Pedagogical Sketchbooks'

    13. Re:Get someone else by machineghost · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>Do really you think you can train a graphical designer to code with a few book
      >>and tutorials, and not get out results fitting for thedailywtf?

      YES, I really think he can. Why? Because I did it.

      Growing up, I had always been the nerdy one in my family (I was programming (in BASIC) at age 10, and haven't stopped since), and my sister was always the artistic one. But a few years ago, we both found ourselves in the same occupation: web designer. I was making web site designs for real estate agents, and she was making them for various organizations at her school.

      Her designs were definitely prettier than mine. A lot prettier, which makes sense because she was a graphic design major in college, and I was a ... literature major (code monkey by night). But even so, my designs were pretty good; literally hundreds of real estate agents chose my designs (as opposed to the ones made my predecessors) for their sites. And mine never had the browser-specific issues, long page loads, and other technical issues that my sister's did.

      My point in this story is that an artistic bent is important. A lifelong penchant for graphics and design is a real asset in doing any kind of graphic design, whether it's web pages, catalog layouts, or whatever. And if you want to be the best designer in your industry, you'll probably need it. But if you're willing to read books and web articles, you can become an extremely competent web designer, no matter what your background is. All it takes is:

      A) learning the basic rules of things like contrast, white-space, maximum line length, etc.
      B) learning what your clients want from a website (I found it fairly common that what was considered "good" by any respected designer was the exact opposite of what my intended audience considered "good"; hey, they're not designers either!)
      C) making an effort to look at other sites out there and evaluate what is good/bad about their design
      D) and finally, being willing to experiment. You aren't going to get added to the CSS Zen Garden with your first attempt. Hell, you're probably not even going to get something usable out of your first 5-10 attempts. But if you stick with it, constantly evaluate what you did right/wrong, and don't stop trying, eventually you'll start making designs both you and your customer can appreciate, and after you make enough "winners" you'll soon find yourself in a comfortable flow of producing quality (if not awe-inspiringly beautiful) designs.

      Recommendations:
      Web Graphics for Non-Designers (which is really "web design for non-designers") was by far the best book I found for people like us. My copy is from 2002, but there might be a more recent one; even if there isn't, the book is still completely relevant today. If you want to learn all the basic rules, start with this book.

      Try other design/usability books; I have several on my shelf that I found useful, and learned a thing or two from, but which aren't really solid enough for me to recommend. Instead, just try going to your local book store (preferably a big one with great selection) and leaf through their web design/usability offerings. Even if you don't buy any of them, just skimming the recommendations and sample designs they offer can be very valuable.

      While we're talking about usability, I also strongly recommend Don't Make Me Think. Now, you might be thinking usability and design are two separate things; you'd be wrong. They are two different things, but they're not at all separate; they intertwine with each other in pivotal ways, and if you want to make successful designs you need to consider usability aspects. Don't Make Me Think is like a bible in the usability field, and it's also a relatively quick read (the author does this deliberately to make the book itself more usable).

      Books are great, and the two I just named are particularly great, but you'll also want to keep tabs on various web design sites. I have an iGoogle tab filled with RSS feeds from

    14. Re:Get someone else by larrrk · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      and professional website designers don't??

    15. Re:Get someone else by NiK0laI · · Score: 3, Informative

      Could try out Open Source Web Design.

    16. Re:Get someone else by piojo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Personally, I think it's nicer to search for a nice CSS/site template. I found one that I really liked for my home page. They are very easy to adapt, and you know what you are doing is legal. (I looked for ones that didn't require me to write anything really tacky at the bottom of the page. "design by [author]" is fine, "design by Free CSS Templates" is not.)

      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    17. Re:Get someone else by Selanit · · Score: 1

      Regarding color and accessibility: color can be used to convey meaning; but it's bad practice to rely on color by itself. So, for example, if you have an error message it's fine to give it a light red background, provided that you also provide a non-color-based indicator of what it is (for example, an exclamation point, a stop sign, or similar).

      And, for the sake of gratuitous pedantry, the relevant legal requirements regarding web accessibility are not in the ADA (Americans with Disability Act). They're in section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended in 1998. The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 are also relevant, but do not have the force of law. The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 have just gone to last call for comments status after years of work, and will probably be approved by the W3C soon. WCAG 2 is going to be hard to wrap your head around. The standard was designed to be technology independent, and so it's all very abstract.

    18. Re:Get someone else by roadsider · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a professional web site designer, NO. I don't. Naturally, any creative person worth their salt has their influences and inspirations, but to cut and paste someone else's design and merely change the colors and fonts is outright theft. You want good graphic design? Hire someone with real credentials. There are plenty of young, hungry, fresh-out-of-school designers that'll work for cheap and give you good work. Advertise on Craig's List. Don't think you need to hire someone? Think you can do it just as well? Good. Next time you need an appendectomy, just go to the library and borrow a medical text and try it yourself. I'm sure you'll do fine.

    19. Re:Get someone else by infinityspiral · · Score: 1

      Good design follows a set of rules and great design knows when to break them. Coming from the design side I can't give it a review, but I did see a book that covers ui design from a programming perspective: http://books.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/01/1327238

      Or if you're limited on time I'd be happy to help, but I am less free than the above option. :)
      www.infinityspiral.com

    20. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hiring a designer is no guarantee that the resulting website will be accessible to those with disabilities. In fact some otherwise eye-catching designs are totally inaccessible. So whether you build or buy, you need to build web accessibility into the spec.

      Two useful references from experts in the field are:

      Web Accessibility: Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance (Paperback, by Thatcher, et al.
      http://www.amazon.com/Web-Accessibility-Standards-Regulatory-Compliance/dp/1590596382/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202686041&sr=1-1

      Maximum Accessibility: Making Your Web Site More Usable for Everyone (Paperback), by Slatin & Rush
      http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Accessibility-Making-Usable-Everyone/dp/0201774224/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202686041&sr=1-4

      Good luck

    21. Re:Get someone else by antic · · Score: 1

      Agree 100%. Pick a small to medium sized web business and pay to have it done properly with a view to you maintaining it. Do it yourself and it will suck.

      --
      'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
    22. Re:Get someone else by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Any URLs to recommend?

    23. Re:Get someone else by Re-Pawn · · Score: 4, Informative

      oswd.org (Open-Source Web Design - a lot of templates - all free.

    24. Re:Get someone else by davidannis · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're better off using an open source template. There's a big collection at http://www.oswd.org/

    25. Re:Get someone else by piojo · · Score: 1


      Any URLs to recommend?

      Mine came from http://templates.arcsin.se/ , but I'd look at any result for a search for "css templates" (without the quotes). Some sites are definitely better than others--if you notice that 99% of a site's listed templates are garbage, you might as not look through all N pages of templates that they have. Similarly, many sites only have blog-related templates, but that should be okay, supposing you don't mind removing unnecessary divs and re-centering things.
      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    26. Re:Get someone else by virgil_disgr4ce · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Honestly, I will never understand why people who identify as {geeks | techies | IT workers | etc} undervalue or often deliberately devalue creativity, as though it's useless, functionless, unimportant. It's true that it's hard and takes practice and work, but that's never stopped us before. If there is one thing I wish I could teach the world, it's that creativity is a good thing, and that it can be learned. But as long as so many people think of it as some kind of impregnable domain of "artists," instead of an ability open to anyone, I won't hold my breath.

      :-/

      --Tedb0t

    27. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but to cut and paste someone else's design and merely change the colors and fonts is outright theft I don't think it is theft. Actually there is no theft in context of information. If you want something private - keep it in secret. Once you published your site, it is not secret anymore and can be copied. Any text, graphic, someone words, etc - ALL can be copied and reproduced. This is nature of information. This is how humans evolve, learn and exchange with information. Word "theft" is not applicable here.

      Idea of intellectual property is bad "habit" and buzzword, promoted by lazy folks, who want to do something once and sell multiple times and prohibit others to do the same.
    28. Re:Get someone else by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'll let you in on a little secret. That's where most graphic designers start too.

      Scour the page for a few sites you like. Revisit old sites you've made. Open a bunch of books of design you enjoy and find some inspiration.

      Starting from a white canvase is always more difficult than at least finding a pallete that inspires you.

    29. Re:Get someone else by stevey · · Score: 1

      If it is just templates you want then no need to buy, the open source web design site has a huge number of templates.

      Sure some of them have strings attached, but I've used them a lot in the past when I needed a quick-start at designing a new site.

    30. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hello,

      You can find free open source www-page templates from here:

      http://www.oswd.org/

      Those might help you :)

    31. Re:Get someone else by computational+super · · Score: 1
      Sure, just blatantly steal someone else's work.

      Thanks for pointing this out. For example, I was just perusing the source code of the Slashdot homepage, and I noticed that it: starts with an <html> tag, includes dozens of <div> tags, uses the <ul>/<li> combination to organize "unordered lists", and combines both the <b> and the <strong> tags... just like my site does! I'm not saying I'm necessarily going to pursue legal action, but after having consulted with my legal tem, I haven't ruled it out yet, either.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    32. Re:Get someone else by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

      I agree... it's always best to expedite the actual design process by totally ripping off someone elses work without letting them know. Good thing you don't work for a big company because it would likely get a lot smaller with a big fat lawsuit. Have fun with that.

    33. Re:Get someone else by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

      I was just perusing the source code of the Slashdot homepage, and I noticed that it: starts with an tag, includes dozens of tags, uses the
      • /
      • combination to organize "unordered lists", and combines both the and the tags... just like my site does!
      So? a program is a list of declarations followed by looping and decision structures. Just because you use the same constructs in development of an application or a model doesn't mean you can't still have legal rights to that design. Clearly, you don't understand how copyright works when it comes to software, it's protected in much the same way a work of literature (which is both a good and a bad thing) is protected.
    34. Re:Get someone else by Fozzyuw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hire someone that knows what they are doing.

      That's the easiest, but likely most costly, way out. But the original question was "how do I teach myself graphical design, particularly in the context of websites?"

      To answer that, I would suggest there's a lot of a) reading and b) practice involved. You don't have to go to school to learn web graphic design, but you do have work hard at learning it. But, taking a course will just make it a lot easier. "Art" stuff is harder to just pickup and do, unlike "tech" stuff. This coming from a guy who was going to go to art school but opted for a Computer Science degree while studying CGI and ending up as a web developer.

      Here are some books:

      Transcending CSS: The Fine Art of Web Design

      An excellent book that expands on CSS techniques as well as gets into how to visualize site design to best markup your website (without tables per say). Later on it will teach you how to look for inspiration in print media (magazines, newspapers, etc) and how to keep a "diary" of design ideas by cutting and pasting different images into a scrap book. It'll also cover different design aspects such as fixed vs liquid layouts, pixel vs em sizing, and get into CSS3 stuff that's coming down the pike (still) with the Advanced Layout Method. This is a must read, but requires some good CSS knowledge.

      Bullet Proof Web Design

      This book is less about design and more about how HTML/CSS markup to make your design easier to do without getting into table layouts. It'll make your job easier and might give you some design ideas. And since you cannot have one without the other...

      Web Standards Solutions

      Another excellent web development book. Like "bulletproof" above, it's a very fast read but worth it's weight in gold. Can you find this stuff on the Intranet? Sure, particularly from A List Apart, who's authers regularly post their articles too, but it's worth having a nice colored book for fast reference.

      The Zen of CSS Design: Visual Enlightenment for the Web (Voices That Matter)

      There's a website for this book, The CSS Zen Garden, that you can use and probably pass over this book (I did, but I'm still interested in adding this one to my collection). This will teach you about how HTML and CSS differ and what can be accomplished by good CSS and semantic HTML. It'll probably also get your inspired as there are a ton of gorgeous examples in the book.

      Don't Make Me Think: A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability, 2nd Edition

      You cannot talk about web site design without taking into consideration Usability and Steve Krug's book is probably the best thing you can read for you and your visitors. He's a nice guy (I've contacted him via email after reading his book and he kindly responded), his book is funny, short, and chalk full of full color graphical examples. You can also read from Nielson's website Useit.com to get more education on usability but there's a good deal of people who feel Nielson's "requirements" can be taken with a grain of salt.

      --
      "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
    35. Re:Get someone else by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "and professional website designers don't??"

      Hell, I thought everyone used the C.A.S.E. method....

      Copy And Steal Everything

      :-)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    36. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly, you don't understand how copyright works when it comes to software
      Clearly you don't understand how blockquote works when it comes to posting.
    37. Re:Get someone else by jfmiller · · Score: 1

      Ok, We get the point already, best beth hire someone, but that doesn't answer the question.

      Let's say, jut for kicks that I'm interested in web design. Maybe I'll go take a few classes someday, but I what to get the basics first. You know, see if I like it. What are some good web sites/books that will get me started without a 4 year degree. Your budget: $150, timeline: two months. I don't need to be an expert, just enough to try redesigning my blog or something.

      Come on, folks lets answer the question asked.

      --
      Strive to make your client happy, not necessarly give them what they ask for
    38. Re:Get someone else by J-1000 · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of young, hungry, fresh-out-of-school designers that'll work for cheap and give you good work.
      The fresh-out-of-school graphic designers I've known were good at art, but only had the most basic understanding of web standards and usability. If you hire someone fresh out of school, expect to work extra close with them on the HTML and CSS.
    39. Re:Get someone else by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

      nah - i quoted what he was saying, but I think the tags he put in the quote fucked it up.

    40. Re:Get someone else by el_gordo101 · · Score: 1

      Adobe Kuler is a nice one as well, though it requires Flash and an Adobe login in order to save the palettes that you create.

      --
      TODO: Insert witty sig
    41. Re:Get someone else by Vicarius · · Score: 1

      If you hire someone fresh out of school, expect to work extra close with them on the HTML and CSS. HTML and CSS isn't their job, just like design isn't yours. It is your job to slice graphical design and code it. It is their job to define layout in Photoshop (or similar app) and colors for hidden thing such as roll overs and menues.
    42. Re:Get someone else by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Wow, get over yourself. Web design is orders of magnitudes easier than surgery.

      Also, saying you were "inspired" by another's work is just a fancy term for "I stole it and tweaked it to my liking." I doubt you'd come up with a totally original design on you.

    43. Re:Get someone else by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Many thanks.

    44. Re:Get someone else by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      I appreciate the link.

    45. Re:Get someone else by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      As a former full-time professional graphic designer and current part-time professional freelance graphic designer, I have to agree 1000%.

      Any graphic designer who tells you he's never stolen anyone else's design is FULL OF SHIT.

      Graphic designers often look to other designs for inspiration. It's not really a big secret. Ever wonder why so many current designs look a lot the same? Duh. There's a whole industry dedicated to printing books and such that exist for no other reason than to provide inspiration.

      Of course, any decent designer worth his salt doesn't steal outright. He looks at other designs, borrowing elements here and there and the end result is cohesive whole that doesn't really look a whole lot like any of his inspirations.

    46. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another "Me-Too". Hire an designer. I work at both sides - as optical guy (photographer) and geek (programmer). I still try to avoid webdesign, even though I know the base (HTML, CSS, typography, ...) Reading a book or two won't make you an expert or at least competent for the job, especially not if "the other side of the brain" - emotion, aesthetics and visual thinking instead of mathematics and structured thinking are required. Getting a little bit into it won't hurt, OTOH, to communicate efficient with the designer.

      IOW: Why wouldn't you give an designer a volume of "networking for dummies" and then let him do your job? Did I hear "experience"? "skills"?

    47. Re:Get someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nah - you are incapable of (or unwilling to) use the "Preview" button, and incapable of (or unwilling to) quote special characters like "<".

  2. A good one... by Machitis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of my favorite that really impacted that way I developed web sites: "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug.

    1. Re:A good one... by robsimmon · · Score: 1

      How about the Non-designer's Design and Type Books, Deluxe Edition, and/or The Non-Designer's Web Book, 3rd Edition, both by Robin Williams. Excellent introductory texts that cover what you need to get started.

  3. Hire someone by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have a little bit of advice in this area from experience too. I was the IT department of a small company like that once. I was ask the samething. I can put together a home page but a business page is a whole different bowl of wax. You screw it up and you can lose customers.

    My advice would be to scout some of the local talent first. You can find some really good artists and designers out of the local techschools. Most of them will work cheap, a good page might set you back 200 bucks.

    --

    Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

    1. Re:Hire someone by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      I completely agree here. This is not your field. It may look like IT to those who don't do IT, but it's not. The maintenance of a website is IT, not the design.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    2. Re:Hire someone by holophrastic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You guys aren't satisfactory geeks -- I think you've lost your geek roots. There's nothing IT-bound to geekdom. Instead, it's the simple notion of "screw it, I'll just figure it out myself". The entire computer geek world came about from having to learn something that no one else knows.

      How can you advise someone capable of learning not to do so? No one's asking to become a professional marketting expert in ten days. The potser is asking to learn over a long period, and to start with something small.

      That's certainly doable for someone clearly able to learn.

      I seem to recal a book review on slashdot some year or six ago that proposed a web design book for programmers. It described basic colour and layout theory and such. I haven't the foggiest as to when or what, but certainly they do exist.

      As a web developer myself -- I do handle both the programming and the design work. I shy away from the serious design work if only because it isn't worth my programming time, but the simple design work is easy and fun. Just sit there with the blank canvas and be patient. Many many iterations is the key. Just talk it out. Think about your design goals, break them down, try them out. It's really just pseudo-code and a paint-brush.

    3. Re:Hire someone by jeillah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the book you are talking about is "The Principles of Beautiful Web Design" by Jason Beard. It is a decent basic overview of graphic design.

    4. Re:Hire someone by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      The potser is asking to learn over a long period, and to start with something small.

      That's the thing - from the sound of things, this job isn't small as it might seem. If it's a single page internet billboard for the company, then yes, do it yourself. But since he's asking about accessibility, that makes it sound like it's a fairly thorough site, which will have several different (but complementary) styles depending on the section the viewer is in. This is a job for a designer. Now, that said, work closely with the designer and try to learn what you can about design from them. Ask questions about placement of elements and color choices. If the designer is worth a damn, he should be able to explain the design theory behind his decisions.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    5. Re:Hire someone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same as other people, geeks like to learn because they like to do the things they learn. Someone who has absolutely no experience with graphics design probably isn't very interested in actually doing it ("wouldn't it be great if I could do that?" not withstanding.) Note that he asks for help because his boss told him to improve the web site, not because he himself noticed how awful the web site of the company is and how it could be improved.

    6. Re:Hire someone by pgillan · · Score: 2, Informative

      I suffer from all the same ailments that have been listed previously: no artistic ability, slight colorblindness, etc. I bought this book because it sounded like exactly what I needed. Even after reading through one night (it's not that long), I still feel that way, although I have yet to actually sit down attempt to "build a beautiful site." (I'm also lazy). The section on color palettes alone was almost worth the price of admission, what with the easy to understand color wheels and the definitions of "shade" and "tint".

    7. Re:Hire someone by merreborn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How can you advise someone capable of learning not to do so?
      Because we suspect that it's at best difficult to teach yourself aesthetic sensibilities. As an above poster mentioned, geeks are prone to being "colorblind" and aesthetically clueless -- I know my wife cringes every time I wear a blue shirt with brown pants.

      If you reverse the situation -- say he was a graphic designer, and the boss asked him to write a little code -- you'd see the same sort of response here. Both programming and the arts really take years to get a good base understanding developed. Neither are the sort of thing where you can pick up a book and start producing something decent. You produce crap for years before you get it figured out.

    8. Re:Hire someone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was ask the samething
      bowl of wax
      techschools

      Still drunk from last night, are you?

    9. Re:Hire someone by dana340 · · Score: 1
      Geekdom is one thing, but artistic design typically falls out of the realm of geekdom. All my attempts at sites failed horribly, regardless of the medium chosen. Flash & HTML based. Knowing how to write a website's code doesn't mean he'd be able to make it more appealing. Color theory and basic wold of design type stuff can only go just so far, there are a lot of trends that need to be checked before continuing, such as what resolution are the majority of site visitors using, what platforms are being used, and so on. Then factor in the navigation and alt tag requirements for ADA, it really should START in the hands of someone who is more experienced, the site will overall look much better when done, and it will likely save a lot of self taught time (and payroll for the boss). If he really likes, he can have someone with graphic talent create a site and code the back end, or use one of the many templates that are already out there.

      The graphic design area isn't a place to dabble with commercial sites, we can ALWAYS tell.

      --
      "10001110101 - periodic table with a centerpiece of mind" -Clutch
    10. Re:Hire someone by JeffSh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are daft. your post is advocating both positions.

      1) do it all yourself
      2) but i only am a web developer, i do both the programming AND design work... but you shy away from serious design work. (not only that, but what about the networking, servers, login scripts, domain/ldap management, database management etc? you probably shy away from that too)

      The most important skill that I've found in people I work with is that they KNOW THEIR LIMITATIONS and have management that doesn't push them to know everything. For instance, I'd rather pay someone $125 an hour to do a job in 4 hours than waste my entire week on a project I know nothing about. It's irresponsible to the business to waste talents chasing stuff in this manner.

      This post is not insightful, it's contradictory. If this guy were a web developer and needed web developing help, your post would make sense, but he's not. He's a network admin doing graphic design. big mistake!

    11. Re:Hire someone by fire5ign · · Score: 1

      Most of them will work cheap I'm a designer and a design educator. While I laud most of the posters' advice about hiring a graphic designer, I wonder what the reaction would be if I told graphic designers to "hire a programmer, especially from a tech school ... most of them work cheap"? As someone mentioned earlier, it takes about as long to train a good designer as it does a good coder, and when you recommend hiring a student, you're liable to get what you pay for. Hire a professional. They don't work cheap but you'll end up getting better value for your money.
    12. Re:Hire someone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try looking online even... Besides, those familiar with computers as media are more likely to be better than traditional artists in regards to web development.

      It's not like there isn't a CGsociety, ConceptArt, DeviantArt, EatPoo, Worth1000, or even Renderosity for crying out loud. (Google "[art/artist/design/designer] [forum/community/group]" if you really want to broaden the search pool.) But yeah, you should pony up the dough to post a help-wanted ad somewhere relevant or check around to scout someone who you think would fit your client's style. (Most artists have contact info. Email your business proposal. It's typical to get a reply if it's reasonable.) Not like you'd run low on a supply of artists wanting freelance or hired design work either. You should also weigh whether to get someone fresh and inexperienced for cheap (those starting out are usually desparate for experience on their resume) or someone more experienced but possibly costly. Provided you do the research, quality shouldn't be too big an issue - the experience choice will weigh in more on design options vs. deadlines.

      Also you'd probably have a good shot with your local Craigslist, the YAUD tally runs high.

      Only time a non-artist should try to rough-it in page design is if they're pretty sure their client is going to be happy with a stock template or even something as rough looking as an old-school HTML table.

    13. Re:Hire someone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Many many iterations is the key."

      This is important. Design is really a two step process... Step #1: Lay down as many ideas as you can. Step #2: Remove everything that isn't brilliant. Then rinse and repeat as your design takes shape.

      Natural talent and research makes you good at the first step, but the more experienced you become the better you are at the second, and the quicker the whole process becomes.

    14. Re:Hire someone by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      This business has one person who does everything from providing basic PC and network support to web site development and database administration.

      Expecting them to hire a graphics designer is as unrealistic as... well, as unrealistic as many of the ideas that graphics designers dream up. They'll need to grow big enough to hire on more technical and engineering staff before they can even think about the expenses of adding a graphics designer to the team.

    15. Re:Hire someone by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      You guys aren't satisfactory geeks -- I think you've lost your geek roots. There's nothing IT-bound to geekdom. Instead, it's the simple notion of "screw it, I'll just figure it out myself". The entire computer geek world came about from having to learn something that no one else knows.

      How can you advise someone capable of learning not to do so? No one's asking to become a professional marketting expert in ten days. The potser is asking to learn over a long period, and to start with something small.

      That's certainly doable for someone clearly able to learn.

      I seem to recal a book review on slashdot some year or six ago that proposed a web design book for programmers. It described basic colour and layout theory and such. I haven't the foggiest as to when or what, but certainly they do exist.

      As a web developer myself -- I do handle both the programming and the design work. I shy away from the serious design work if only because it isn't worth my programming time, but the simple design work is easy and fun. Just sit there with the blank canvas and be patient. Many many iterations is the key. Just talk it out. Think about your design goals, break them down, try them out. It's really just pseudo-code and a paint-brush. The thing that's different here that makes me say "find a professional designer to do it" is that art is not something that you can easily learn. Perhaps I have not tried enough, but everything about how I learn, read, work, enginnering, is all left brained. There is zero right brain work going on.

      If engaging your right brain (and getting nice results) were as easy as reading a book and trying your hand at some design, I think we'd have a lot more artists out there.
    16. Re:Hire someone by nexuspal · · Score: 1

      Design is ALMOST all about doing it over and over and over. They brain has a knack for seeing what looks "good". Keep changing up the design (use a colorwheel) until it looks good to you, get a couple of other opinions (those help a lot to improve your skill) and repeat a 100 times at least, and you'll be amazed at your ability. The key, as others have said here, is repitition and constructive feedback. I believe it's a skill that can only grow with actual practice.

      --
      I've read Slashdot for the last 5 years, and now I start posting... Go figure :-P
    17. Re:Hire someone by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

      Nobody's saying they should hire a designer to be on staff. We're simply saying contract the design work out. And I'm saying work with the designer to get an idea of why he's making the decisions he's making. By doing that, our AC sysadmin friend up there will likely be able to do basic maintenance to the site as needed, and maybe even add a new page or two from time to time.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    18. Re:Hire someone by gravis777 · · Score: 1

      You know what, I will make it even easier for you. Install Dreamweaver CS3. Use default templates. Replace default graphics with some pics you take with a digital camera and edit using Gimp or Photoshop. Don't have the budget for CS3? No problem, there is a 30 day free trial from Adobe's website - certainly long enough to spice up the webpage.

      Here is another example - Use something like Microsoft Project to setup a flow chart. Know what you are going to have on your front page, knwo what menus you are going to have, and submenus. Have this designed before you start coding. Check your flowchart - there should be no broken links, pages you cannot get to because you forgot to provide a link, etc.

      It may not come out as the best website ever, but you will have something that is functional, and will look halfway decent.

      However, I still agree with the parent - hire someone. When we had our church website redesigned, I tried for the longest to try to come up with something. In the end, we hired someone. I handed them my flowchart, and for $300 they came up with a site design. We could update the site using Contribute, which was nice, it ment that the pastor or any of the staff could update it without knowing a thing about HTML. I went into the XML code after it was written and tweaked it a bit, to replace a graphic here, lock in a font there (before hands, the page looked great in windows running Firefox, but looked like crap in IE, and was barely legeable on Linux and Mac). So yeah, they did not do the entire site for us, that was not in teh contract. They provided us with a framework to work with, with some demo pages, and I did the tweaking I needed to make it work for us. Saved me a buttload of time, we had a really nice website, that was easy to update, everyone was happy.

    19. Re:Hire someone by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      Nobody's saying they should hire a designer to be on staff.

      I did overstate your position in the post I was responding to. Sorry about that.

      But actually quite a number of posters have said that they should hire a graphics designer, including several who are suggesting that the graphics designer should be making all the strategic decisions about the company's web presence.

      Yet the point remains that any company with a one man IT department will get a better return on their investment by using whatever money they might spend on contracting out all the design work on other parts of their infrastructure. (Useability studies come to mind.) Especially as they have someone on board already who has expressed an interest in learning a bit about design. If the product they are selling is a good one, there is no need for a company to have a bang-up stellar website... they just need to avoid the worst mistakes. And believe it or not, a lowly IT professional can actually learn enough to do that.

      The true graphics design artisans out there maybe should think about putting together a guild that could certify that their members know a little bit about what they do. And that could also do some kind of policing of all the nut cases who call themselves graphics designers because they took a term at Art School before they flunked out through the Weed Effect; or they diligently studied the use of the outdated copy of PhotoShop that their brother-in-law's cousin's friend gave to them last Summer; or back in the dotcom day, they had a job in a place that had a website and they wore their hair in a ponytail.

    20. Re:Hire someone by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      No one with any self-respect decides to start learning something because they were told to do so. And no, people don't learn things because they like to do them. People learn things because they like to learn them -- again, conditionally upon their own self-respect.

      I'm certain his boss would accept the "I'm a programmer not an artist" reasoning. But anyone willing to learn deserves to be encouraged to do so.

      If the poster is reasonably intelligent, and significantly motivated, it's easy to pick up graphic design. It's not hockey requiring physical attributes. It's not piloting the space shuttle which requires some credentials. It's graphic design which requires nothing more than a few hundred bucks and some time. It doesn't even require any supervision -- not that it can't help.

      I pity you if you've never learned something because you found it interesting to learn -- independent of actually doing anything with it. Might I recommend a few fields of intellectual interest?

      Quantum mechanics is incredibly interesting as it sends modern physics back into stone-age philosophy.

      Technical writing is amusing, because learning to write so that stupid people don't misread can really open your eyes to stupid people -- in case you don't see enough of them.

      Watch shows like "Dirty Jobs" and "How It's Made". You'll find that a lot of simple things become amazingly interesting when someone does them in scale. Like canned corn and legos.

    21. Re:Hire someone by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Of course you produce crap for years. Just about anything requiring cognition requires expertiese. But a difference exists, for example between graphic design and, say, rocketry. Racketry isn't rocketry until something launches skyward. But launching is far from the first step. Graphic design is nothing like that. The first step is to design something. It'll be crap, but it will be done. Simple programming is the same way. That's what makes the cost-to-entry so low. You can start with nothing and grow by iteration. That's non true of everything. It's not true of every programming language, but it is true of programming. It's certainly true of graphic design.

      And, don't forget, you don't go around naked. There's nothing wrong with asking someone for their opinion -- a great deal of industries work on nothing more than surveys and focus groups.

    22. Re:Hire someone by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      I beg to differ. I think the deep-end is the place to start swimming. Of course we can always tell, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. The poster is being asked to make something better, not to make it perfect.

      Following ADA requirements is retartedly easy. Do you know why? It's because they publish a list of requirements. Any time an agency lists what they want, it's easy to follow said list. It's like following a recipe -- because it's been received by a recipient.

      Baking is easy with a recipe.

      But as I've said elsewhere, graphic design is one of those few fields where you can try, fail, learn, and try again all without any experience. Any time you can start with no help, finish with no help, fail with no help, and continue with no help then it's easy to learn.

      Assuming, of course, that you've been taught how to learn. I was taught how to learn. I taught myself how to learn. How's that for iterative recursion?

    23. Re:Hire someone by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Umm, you'll want to re-read my original post. I said that I don't do the serious design work because it isn't worth my programming time. Programming pays more in my world. When I said "serious" I meant big and time consuming. Not time consuming just for me, but time consuming because it's a business and the designer has to spend weeks going back and forth with the client.

      I learned to handle graphic design many many years ago. It's not difficult to learn. Try it one day. But you'll need to learn how to learn, if you have difficulty picking up new things.

      Graphic design is fairly easy to learn. Principles are ancient, concepts are proven, relatively little is new, there are tonnes of experience, everyone is willing to help you, feedback is readily available, and it's an iterative process. What's more, you can easily start with a smaller project -- one page, one graphic, non-liquid, non-ADA, black and white, photographic, flat, whatever. That makes learning easy.

      I can learn; why can't you?

    24. Re:Hire someone by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      It sounds to me like your right-brain is relaxed and ready to get to work. MAy I recommend something that got me started?

      There are numerous art-forms based on programming. I don't just mean fractals. I mean things like Logo and POV-Ray. Making art through left-brain programming is a good seguay. It cuts out the physical components, and gives you the most important part of learning to become an artist -- reproduceability. That gives you the iterative process that lets you slowly and gradually improve things without losing your way. Save often.

      You'll find that it runs smoothly into real right-brain artistry.

    25. Re:Hire someone by dana340 · · Score: 1

      I have all the confidence in the world that he can learn, but the wasted effort to get a design itself is where the problem lies. He is the IT go to guy for a company, the last thing that he needs is to fight to build a website design from scratch. Just having someone else build a comp and slice it up for him would be great head start, produce excellent results, and (assuming they get a fair price) save money vs having to develop (and redevelop) the design in house.

      --
      "10001110101 - periodic table with a centerpiece of mind" -Clutch
    26. Re:Hire someone by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 1

      I think I may need to clarify this a little bit. When I said hire someone, I meant hire some of the local talent out of design school or still in school learning to be webdesigners. Most of them have the talent to do what you want them to do. I don't mean bring them on staff, hire them for this one time job and maybe some future maintenance.

      When I say they work cheap, I mean they work cheap from a small business point of view. I was thinking of something like 250 to 400 bucks. That should be in range of most small business, maybe even chump change. But to a struggling college student that is a shit load of bread. Plus you can be giving that student the break he or she needs.

      I never said he couldn't do it himself. It is how much is your time worth to you? For me I have little talent to learn, and almost no motivation to do so, web graphics design. I can, but I would rather pay someone 300 bucks and have it done for me. After that I can take over maintenance and even add pages as time goes by.

      --

      Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

    27. Re:Hire someone by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      That's all assuming that this is the one and only time. Granted the first attempt won't be efficient in effort, time, nor money. But what of the second? Or of the tenth?

    28. Re:Hire someone by cavemanf16 · · Score: 1

      I agree that The Principles of Beautiful Web Design by Jason Beaird is a good general web design book for just this type of issue: a developer moonlighting in the realm of design. Because I have been interested in exactly the same thing lately - the visual design of computer based information - I stumbled upon a book about typography at my local library that I would also highly recommend: The Non-Designers Type Book by Robin Williams. My library had the 1st edition which was written in 1998, but all of the principles are still so true today. Another thing that Jason's book (mentioned earlier in my post) recommends is looking into sIFR which is a flash-based open source technology that allows you to use better fonts on your website. I have been using it on my site for about a week and I think it does look a lot better, but it can slow a site down. These things should get you started on the road to better design in your websites. Another great resource is a href="http://websitesthatsuck.com">websitesthatsuck.com. The guy that runs that site has also written some books on the topic of good web design, and I highly recommend that you read the books - the books are a lot better than the website, for some strange reason.

  4. Good luck getting help here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prepare for 50 variations on the "Computer techs are not artists. You should pay someone." comment.

    Shoot from the hip! It's the Slashdot way.

    1. Re:Good luck getting help here by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      re:"the slashdot way"

      Have you seen the UI around here? I wouldn't be too proud myself. What's with the massive gap between the header and the comments for one...

  5. Zen of CSS design? by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Zen of CSS Design won great praise when it was released for its call for beautiful and natural graphical interfaces built on top of semantically meaningful and conformant (X)HTML. Perhaps you could take inspiration from that?

    1. Re:Zen of CSS design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Highly recommend this one for inspiration and the right way of doing things.

  6. Hire a designer by pjmidnight · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's easy for engineers to imagine that these types of things are the same as the mathematical equation required for coding. These tasks are more esoteric and require a sensitivity to process and inputs that can't be gleaned from a single information source.

    If money is an issue I suggest mining the local college for design students.

    1. Re:Hire a designer by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      There is nothing particularly esoteric or artistically sensitive about using a color wheel to find a complementary color scheme, or applying the rule of threes to layout. Mere engineers can in fact use many principles of graphic design yet keep themselves solidly grounded, without soaring into the rarified heights of Art.

      The graphics designer has many valuable things to offer the world. But after reading the comments on this thread, I am of the strong opinion that an objective and realistic view of his professional contributions to commerce is not one of these things.

    2. Re:Hire a designer by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      You can know all the design theory there is, but a good designer still needs to have some "artistic talent" or whatever you want to call it, as design theory is a guide to help you create a good design -- it can't tell you exactly what you need to do for each case. You can use a color wheel to find complementary colors, but which color do you start with, and which color scheme do you use? There are no right answers, so you still need some sort of non-rational decision making skills.

    3. Re:Hire a designer by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      You can use a color wheel to find complementary colors, but which color do you start with, and which color scheme do you use? There are no right answers, so you still need some sort of non-rational decision making skills.

      I have yet to meet an engineer who was incapable of using non-rational decision making tools in the non-engineering aspects of their life. So this wouldn't be a problem, being as how this part of web design is non-rational. (According to parent post.)

      I think the big difference is in the way the graphics designer and the engineer would present their findings to the boss.

      The graphics designer would tend to use phrases like "we want to use warm colors and rounded borders so the customers feel safe and secure about our support..."

      The engineer is more likely to say "I've surveyed our competition, and the companies in the upper quartile for improved revenues from sales consistently use reddish earth tones with quarter-rounded borders on their web pages..."

      Both have gotten to the same place: one through gut intuition; the other through a weird alchemy of web spiders, Perl analysis of captured style sheets, and esoteric manipulations with pivot tables. Both processes are equally non-rational. One simply uses more numbers than the other.

    4. Re:Hire a designer by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      I have yet to meet an engineer who was incapable of using non-rational decision making tools in the non-engineering aspects of their life.

      Obviously, just as how graphic designers need to make rational decisions, too. But that still doesn't mean they'll be as good at it.

      Both have gotten to the same place: one through gut intuition; the other through a weird alchemy of web spiders, Perl analysis of captured style sheets, and esoteric manipulations with pivot tables. Both processes are equally non-rational. One simply uses more numbers than the other.

      But that's not how it usually works out. You can always rationalize a graphic design decision, but that doesn't mean it has any relevance. Graphic design requires you to be able to look at the whole and evaluate it -- not evaluate it by breaking it down to components and evaluating the details, which is more of an engineering process.

      I'm not saying it's impossible for an engineer-type to be good a graphic designer (I'd say I was more of an engineer than an artist), or even that a person with not an aesthetic bone in their body can't learn if they really try. But in my experience, most of the time, it's not enough to just learn the theory if you don't already have any natural graphic design skills -- it takes time and experience to develop it.

  7. Get a professional to do it by Nexum · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Look, just because you're familiar with HTML, and server technologies doesn't mean that you can extend yourself into graphic design. Ask yourself - would you let a typical graphic designer manage those Ethernet servers, etc. that you currently maintain on your network? No! It works both ways.

    Decent graphic design - especially accessibility etc. that your boss wants is a studied art, it will cost you a lot less just to go to the professionals, even if doing it yourself seems like it might save money and time. It won't.

    The art of winning battles is knowing which ones to participate in, and which ones to sit out.

    --

    This sig has been deprecated.
    1. Re:Get a professional to do it by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Look, just because you're familiar with HTML, and server technologies doesn't mean that you can extend yourself into graphic design.

      As a counterexample, though, Donald Knuth did go from mere legendary computer scientist to typesetting expert and designer of what is still one of the best-looking by default typesetting engines out there.

    2. Re:Get a professional to do it by Pulzar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ask yourself - would you let a typical graphic designer manage those Ethernet servers, etc. that you currently maintain on your network? No! It works both ways.

      That's not a valid argument. To take it to an extreme, you'd never let a chef do brain surgery on you, but you might let a brain surgeon cook you a meal with some help from a cookbook. Just because one profession has little chance of succeeding in another, the opposite does not have to be true.

      If the design requirements are small, a capable geek can read some books, look at some design ideas, and probably come up with something worthwhile for a small business web site.

      --
      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
    3. Re:Get a professional to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But would I let a surgeon help in a restaurant kitchen? No way.

      Congrats, the rule you've just demonstrated is: if a field allows amateurs (like cooking, at home), then professionals of any field are allowed to do it.

      Extended to this case: if this is a user-facing, revenue-generating page, hire a professional graphic designer. If it's a personal blog, don't bother.

      To suggest that cooking and graphic design are somehow lesser fields simply because they allow amateurs is absurd. I know places that said "we'll give Random Guy this Learn to Program in 24 Hours book, and he'll be our programmer", too, but this doesn't mean that programming is like cooking.

    4. Re:Get a professional to do it by rossz · · Score: 1

      Would you let a brain surgeon take over as head chef in a five star restaurant? Of course not. A system admin can get away with putting together a personal home page, but most shouldn't be expected to design a commercial web page.

      I can put together a web page that passes the w3c validation in xhtml 1.0 strict, no problem, but you probably wouldn't want to use it to attract customers.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    5. Re:Get a professional to do it by Bombula · · Score: 1
      You put your finger right on it, possibly unintentionally: design function is not boolean, whereas technical function is. Either your ethernet switches work or they don't. Either your servers are up or they aren't. And as you mentioned, either brain surgery is successful or it isn't. But design, like a meal - or any form of art, for that matter - can still be digestable even if it isn't in good taste.

      However, while a brain surgeon may stand a better chance of cooking a palatable meal than a chef has of performing acceptable brain surgery, it does not follow that a brain surgeon stands any higher chance of producing a culinary masterpiece. The clear line of success/failure in technical fields can make them seem more demanding, but this is only an illusion created by the fact that there is no corresponding dividing line in the arts, but rather a broad, grey area of success, the extreme high-end of which is every bit as demanding as any technical field.

      --
      A-Bomb
    6. Re:Get a professional to do it by daviddennis · · Score: 1

      I think it's likely that Donald Knuth will be dead before he finishes The Art of Computer Programming, so if you think that is his most valuable work you might consider his typography obsession an unfortunate loss.

      On the other hand, for many people his typography obsession was of great value to them, since there are millions of TeX-formatted papers around that would have had to use some other tool if it weren't for Knuth.

      And he pulled the exact same university salary either way. Did he make more money on The Art of Computer Programming than The TeXbook? I'm going to guess that he lives comfortably either way, so that aspect probably doesn't matter.

      D

    7. Re:Get a professional to do it by mieses · · Score: 1

      why do you assume a chef couldn't do brain surgery? They may be rare, but this chef is more likely to exist than an engineer who understands the cultural aspects behind good visual design.

    8. Re:Get a professional to do it by mieses · · Score: 1

      the operations of ethernet switches or servers is also a grey area or an art form. neither a designer or an engineer can make a switch 100% reliable. like art, engineering is not about perfection. it works / doesn't work is a simplistic measurement. how do they work? why are the servers doing what they are doing?

  8. Not a technical problem by Smallpond · · Score: 1

    A good looking website isn't moving, blinking crap. Its good layout, color schemes and art. Hire a graphic designer. Good ones will have links to sites they've done, which makes it easy to choose one whose style matches the image your company wants to project. I did some research on this for a project and easily found breathtakingly good site designs on the web.

    That said, what looks good isn't always the most functional. Site designers agree these days that you never want to force your visitors to go through too many links, so home pages tend to be a bunch of menus with 500 links on them. Not much room for good design.

    1. Re:Not a technical problem by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1, Interesting

      A good looking website isn't moving, blinking crap. Its good layout, color schemes and art. Hire a graphic designer.

      Problem is, when you hire a graphic designer, what you get tends more towards moving, blinking crap, or pretty-looking but unusable pages where you can't figure out what's a link and what's not and that break in a browser different than what the designer uses, than it does towards good layout, color schemes and art.

      A web site is not a magazine ad or a glossy brochure, but those are the roots of the field of "graphic design".

      Hire a graphic designer to make your logos and graphics, sure, and maybe rough-out a look; but unless they've had extensive training in user interfaces, HTML, and CSS, don't hand your whole site over to a graphic designer.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
  9. Get a web designer by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1

    I understand it's a small business and money is tight, but one thing I've found is that you either have the "eye" or you don't. Geeks with no artistic eye make really horrible web sites. I have the same problem. I actually have taste; I can look at a web site and tell you if it's good or not, but taking a blank page and putting something tasteful (key word) on it is just something I can't do.

    To quote Clint Eastwood: "A man has gotta know his own limitations."

    Unfortunately, you're going to get terrible advice from this site ("Just make it black/white text! That's the best for readability, navigation, and accessibility"). Geeks all too typically have no appreciation for design, but it's critical for appealing to regular, everyday people (I'm assuming your site is not targeted at geeks).

    If your boss wants a nice looking web site, get someone who knows what they're doing. There's more to design than just easy navigation.

    --
    Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    1. Re:Get a web designer by cmacb · · Score: 1

      ("Just make it black/white text! That's the best for readability, navigation, and accessibility")

      Are you nuts?!

      Green text on black background is the only way to go!

    2. Re:Get a web designer by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Funny

      Green text on black background is the only way to go!

      Nah, that's old school. Amber on a black background is what you want.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    3. Re:Get a web designer by smchris · · Score: 1

      I actually have taste; I can look at a web site and tell you if it's good or not, but taking a blank page and putting something tasteful (key word) on it is just something I can't do.

      Tell me about it. I picked up most of an art history major. My wife is a BFA turned web designer. Sometimes it's best to sketch out some goals and let someone else do it.

    4. Re:Get a web designer by emilng · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I found this study that found that green text on a yellow background is the easiest to read:
      http://hubel.sfasu.edu/research/AHNCUR.html

      They only tested for dark colors on light background and not light colors on dark background so I wonder if it really is the case that green on black is the best or if other color combinations are actually better. I know this doesn't have anything to bear on the aesthetic appearance of a website, but I thought it was interesting. I mean look at Jacob Nielson's site and how ugly a supposed usability expert's site is.

    5. Re:Get a web designer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a very simple explanation for that: green-yellow is a red-contrast. Green is green and yellow is green plus red. The difference is all in the red channel, which consists of longer wavelengths and is easier to focus on than green, or much worse blue contrasts. At comfortable brightnesses, there is a slight focus difference between the different wavelengths, so if the contrast is in more than one channel, like in white-black, it is harder to concentrate on the text (also due to subtle color fringes on RGB displays.)

    6. Re:Get a web designer by Ksisanth · · Score: 1

      but taking a blank page and putting something tasteful (key word) on it is just something I can't do.

      Artists can have that problem, too: "freedom inhibits creativity". When I'm working on a project and don't know where to start, I make a short list of rules, either tailored to the requirements of the project or completely arbitrary, and before long I end up with a set of specific problems that need creative solutions. I find that it is much easier to tackle the specific problems than the general problem of creating something from scratch.

    7. Re:Get a web designer by Selanit · · Score: 1

      The reason that green text on a yellow background is NOT a good idea is that certain types of color blindness (namely protanopia) make it difficult or impossible to distinguish between yellow and green. People with that type of color blindness would perceive it as yellow-on-yellow. Yuck.

      As for Nielson's ugly site, that's deliberate.

    8. Re:Get a web designer by Thornae · · Score: 1

      They only tested for dark colors on light background and not light colors on dark background...

      Yes, but they explain their reasoning for doing so, and also discuss this at the end of the article:

      "According to a manual by AT (1989), the direction of the contrast (dark on light, or light on dark) might also affect legibility. When light text is placed on a dark background the text may seem to glow and become blurred; this is referred to as halation, and it may make the text harder to read. Some evidence for an effect of halation was found in the current experiment... more research is needed on this topic before any strong recommendations can be made."

      --
      |>
      Here be Dragons
  10. Pay someone else by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Contract out to a professional.
    You've already got a lot on your plate.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:Pay someone else by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Geez I wish I had mod pts today. That's the biggest and most important argument. Philosophies aside (and I'm a designer and it's the early morning and I'm migrating files and reformatting a computer I'm selling at the moment and would normally be crankier than hell and could flame this to China) the most important consideration is TIME. Would it be worth it for him to put another item on the agenda which could be a timesink and still not come up to par - or could you save time (and a heap of money) using a professional?

      The whole point of a service economy whether you're marketing, graphics or IT is getting a specialist who can knock your socks off and use their time to the fullest advantage. I'm getting bummed by the whole 'kitchen sink' fad because it's really not only lowering the bar - but it's really pandering to the jack of all trades master of none crowd. I know enough code so that my designs and templates will hook with the back end effectively and I can make revisions, but I put in big flashing neon when a recruiter or client comes calling because they see all the languages I have listed on my resume that it's not my passion, interest, or the best most effective use of their time to be mucking about with their systems or the back-end more than I should.

      I came out of publishing, printing initally on the way to design & advertising - and it always was an advantage to be able to interface with the production directors and speak their language later on in my career and know that my stuff could get on and off the press with minimal fuss (not to mention having a better grasp of really cool things that could be added to the design). I never claimed to be a true dot-head who could read screen angles and see color through the seps exclusively (true side-story - the best color expert on one of the pre-press and high-end publishing campuses I worked with was actually color-blind. But GEEZ could he read film).

      I always am quick to point out when a client is bogging themselves down timewise when they go outside of my usual skillset. Sure I could learn advance scripting for building new libraries to hook into - but is it really worth their time? And by worth I mean money.

    2. Re:Pay someone else by ACMENEWSLLC · · Score: 1

      I'm sort of in a simular boat -- I do a bit of everything. Programming PC's, Midrange systems, hardware, software, systems integration, routers, firewalls. Some areas require a lot of understanding, such as the firewall. Other's I'm just so-so on.

      I agree with others - either you have the graphic eye, or you don't. I'm decent. I have previously sold works & have had some art published, so I do some of our web design too.

      Time is short, so graphic tools are a must. I use things such as Xara (http://www.xara.com/) to quickly build nice looking graphics for pages. Javascript.internet.com has a large amount of scripts which I find valuable. You can search various sights such as Flickr.com for Creative Commons works - many which you can freely alter and use on your site.

      I also outsource a lot of work. We use Guru.com. There are many developers from all over the world. I can often get web design, graphics work, and Flash done for next to nothing this way. I typically do the simple & fun things and outsource the rest.

      Other great tools that are free -- paint.net, Notepad++, NVU, FileZilla.

    3. Re:Pay someone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the company the guy is working at has him doing all the responsibilities he mentioned for IT work, all by himself, then they are too cheap to pay for more people which would make contracting out to a professional a very unlikely thing that the boss would even allow.

    4. Re:Pay someone else by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If the company the guy is working at has him doing all the responsibilities he mentioned for IT work, all by himself, then they are too cheap to pay for more people
      Not necessarily; he might be good [enough] at them, so that it doesn't make sense to get anyone else in. There is a middle ground between being a tightwad and wasting money.
      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    5. Re:Pay someone else by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      I totally agree with you. Except here is a guy who _likes_ having lots of different stuff on his plate. He might be bored if he doesn't get a todo list that contains more than enough items.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
  11. It is hard to give you advice... by an.echte.trilingue · · Score: 1

    It is hard to give you advice if you don't point us to the site. That said, I am trying to do the same thing for my company's site... it still has a long way to go.

    The first thing I will tell you, though, is forget about trying to write it in html/php. Get a good, free content management system like typo3 or phpwebsite. Develop a good template and let the other employees fill in the content. That will save you a lot of time and enable your company's on line presence to continue to function once you leave/go on vacation.

    As for what to put on your front page, why don't you just look at what other people in your niche are doing and try to improve on it?

    --
    weirdest thing I ever saw: scientology advertising on slashdot.
  12. Punch up by kylben · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My boss has asked me to 'punch up' the website to make it more appealing.

    Sounds like the project has already failed, then.

    Seriously, start by asking questions, not offering answers. And I mean to him, not to slashdot. What is it the site is meant to communicate? What services does it provide? What values should it express? Why does he think it is not appealing now? Who is the audience? What are their values and expectations? Why are you worrying about this on Sunday?

    People that do this are called graphic artists for a reason, and art is communication and it has a vocabulary. Start with what you want to communicate and how it can/should be communicated, then find colors, shapes, symbols and relationships that express that.

    Get a professional if you can, he's the one that knows to ask those questions, and how to execute the answers he discovers.

    --
    Insightful and funny are really the same thing, except one has a punch line.
    1. Re:Punch up by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      I generally agree with your comment but; this isn't graphic art, it's graphic design.
      It isn't about making the site look pretty, it's about making the site communicate what you want it to. If that means making the site look ugly, then so be it. Art != design.
      Asking questions is the best idea in any plan though. Any solution starts with describing the problem, and right now, the poster is asked to provide a solution without a problem. Actually, the problem as currently stated is to "punch up" the site. You don't need a graphic designer for that; you need boxing gloves!

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
  13. Edward Tufte by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/

    Edward Tufte has great ideas on graphic design in general. Most are not specifically directed at web graphics, but some of the topics in his Ask E.T Forum cover this. He responds to problems that include how to format a list properly, how much information to put on one screen, and the design of forms intended for user input.

  14. Use a theme for a website engine by rgm3 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Your best bet here is to start with a system like Wordpress, Joomla, or Drupal and theme it. You can start with one that has the basic layout you like and modify according to your GIMP skill level. Usually all the accessibility work is done for you with this approach.

    1. Re:Use a theme for a website engine by Ugot2BkidNme · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you truly believe that Joomla Drupal or Wordpress Templates are generally accessible? Seriously?

      I build Accessible websites for a living and I am telling you flat out it is a lot more difficult to validate and have good accessible design. Almost all Templates you will find use tables even those that do not still the CMS's and modules generally put out bad or table formated output. Traveling down this path is a very bad way to go.

      This can be a very daunting task. But you can do it.

      Start by picking a DocType that works for you. then produce all the content you want in valid html format. identify different sections and enclose them in Div's assign classes to like content and assign ID's to sections that will not be repeated.

      Once you have the content displaying in the way that makes sense in markup. You can begin to style it either pick an existing templeting system or create your via includes. Now this is where things get a bit more difficult you need to determine how you want the content to display.

      From this point on you can begin to do design your website accordingly. Remember Javascript is not completely bad but any nice helpful things you do with javascript should have corresponding non javascript ways of doing things. Like adding buttons in noscript tags for onchange events. Also adding targets to window popups and be sure to add onkeypress="this.click()" to all links as well. You can modify css via javascript to make things display and not display but remember to set the defaults via javascript at the point of window.onload this way with no javascript the user will still see the content that you wish them to see just not in the fashion that might not be optimal.

      Two other quick tips to remember: Do not specify a size of your website via pixel it should be done via em or percentages. Take into account that the user can and will change the default size of their font's you must account for this.

  15. Mimicry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    1: Find a site that has the usability level (and pretty interface) that you're after.

    2: Mimic (with all the copyright-infringing energy you can muster) their their site layout.

    3: Find a local college art student, and have him/her make some replacement graphics for you.
     
    Art students generally work pretty cheap on art/design projects - mostly due to the lack of employment opportunities directly relating to their choice of major. Design jobs that bolster the resume are almost always welcomed. Besides, most of us will tolerate a few gaudy graphics if the site layout works well (i.e. we can find what we're looking for quickly).

  16. HIRE a designer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can get a professional design for $500 max online. Why waste your time and energy learning how to design a website when you can hire one for so cheap?

  17. Use a template or buy the design + CSS by markholmberg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would build the site on some simple CMS like CMS Made Simple, http://www.cmsmadesimple.org/ Then, I would add a ready-made CSS template from a site like http://www.oswd.org/ Also, you could just suggest to your boss that you buy the design along with the CSS. There are tons of freelance designers on the web with excellent references available. Our company has bought some amazing designs for as little as 200$. Try a site like http://www.elance.com/ for starters.

  18. solution ... by jest3r · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It doesn't matter if you're a geek or not ... you should hire a web designer who's portfolio of websites is in line with what you are looking for. Unless of course you are a designer. Otherwise it doesn't matter how many books you read, the website will look bad. You need an artists touch. Someone who's got experience.

  19. Unify your online presence and Marketing programs. by mikelieman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Websites are MARKETING tools, and must be part of a unified Marketing Strategy.

    You want a Marketing Pro, who can deliver the rain, handling the "Vision", while you can concentrate on the implementation.

    --
    Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
  20. Hire a designer! by NobleSavage · · Score: 1

    I've been in the same situation several times and I've come to the conclusion that it's best just to hire some one to do the design. If you you don't have an artistic sensibility you will just end up wasting a lot time, getting frustrated, and making something that looks like shit. Find a designer that does work that you like and have them just make the mockup image. Then you can take the image and slice it up and make the html/xhtml/css to your exact standards compliant specifications.

  21. Follow someone else's example by skiingyac · · Score: 1

    If you can't come up with a pretty design (I can't either), then more or less mimic someone else's design. If you mimic some non-popular website's look, and your website also isn't that popular, nobody will notice or care (not that you can get in trouble for this as far as I know). Or, hire a graphic designer at a small or one-man firm to create a mockup in photoshop of your new website design. This takes someone who is skilled in graphic design like an hour or so and shouldn't cost more than $50-100. You then write the html/css to actually implement their scheme, which isn't hard because you are basically just following their directions.

    1. Re:Follow someone else's example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I too started out with very strong coding skills and very weak graphic design skills. The best way I found to improve my own graphical skills and get pretty quick results was to mimic the look of websites that already have it going on.

  22. "graphic design isn't one of my strengths." by jmichaelg · · Score: 1

    Therein lies your solution - tell your boss "graphic design isn't one of my strengths" and that if he wants someone to "punch it up," he'll be happier if he brings in a graphic artist/web designer. The person can be a consulting designer and not a permanent hire. Phrases like "punch it up" is a warning flag that your boss doesn't know what s/he wants. Web page design-by-boss can quickly suck up all your time and then some when he wonders why email quit working.

    I once worked on a project that required working for a project manager who issued very vague directives about the software interface. After four or five tries, I ended up writing him a little tool that let him tweak all the parameters himself. It satisfied him and relieved me of chasing my tail. You can't do that with a web page so let him interact with someone whose strength is graphic design and all three of you will be happier.

    1. Re:"graphic design isn't one of my strengths." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You can't do that with a web page"

      why not?

  23. Art Institute by hotsauce · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Absolutely. Get someone from the local Art Institute of $yourCity to look at your current glossy brochures and do it. Grahpic design is as far from programming as grahpics are from the mechanics of the printing press.

    And yeah, she'll probably be a she :) That's the bonus, you'll get to work with a creative, and see how the other half live (gender- and professionally-wise). Then actually follow through with what she designs for you, don't just cringe at the large grahpics and crazy layout.

    1. Re:Art Institute by dgagley · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Local Art institutes do not teach reality in graphics. Especially graphics that does not clog the band width. I have to re create designers work for print and online on a monthly basis. You can seek design help but you my need to alter it to work at a clean and understandable form. Try some small web design firm that is willing to help on side projects. You may also be able to share codding projects with them and make some side money as well.

      --
      I can't use my sig - my computer can't read my handwriting.
    2. Re:Art Institute by macurmudgeon · · Score: 3, Informative

      No. No. No. No. No.

      I've worked with a number of both pro graphic designers aand students. If they don't understand how web pages are built, then they will not create a modern and attractive web page. Period. Graphic designers don't understand how a web page is constructed anf so will either build a page that is very dumbed down or doesn't translate well to the web. I've worked collaboratively with some good print designers but have not found one who really understands web page design and I've worked with some real pros.

      As for doing it yourself, the chances is that if you can't now you would need lots of study to learn how. Either hire a good *WEB* designer who's work you like and who can build accessible, compliant, etc. pages or use a CMS. Joomla, Wordpress and Drupal all have lots of good quality themes available that at worst can be bought for less than $100. There are a number of decent free ones.

    3. Re:Art Institute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely. Get someone from the local Art Institute of $yourCity to look at your current glossy brochures and do it.
      Hang around a gay bar, you won't be able to put a foot down without treading on a graphic designer's toes.
    4. Re:Art Institute by oliderid · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've worked with a number of both pro graphic designers aand students. If they don't understand how web pages are built,

      I second that. You need a web designer (or a designer with web experience) otherwise:
      1. They will use shiny fonts...It will work on their PC, but of course those exotics fonts won't be installed on the surfer PC.
      2. Pixel != DPI (you will find yourself with a web page width: 123345px)
      3. Impossible layout (things that look beautiful but you cannot translate into HTML)
      4. Layout with no flexibility (don't understand that a web page content may change)
      5. Content mixed with graphics (If you use FLASH no real problem...But with HTML...)
      6. Scroll down layout (big headers! beautiful ones...But the content remain invisible until you scroll down)
      7 Etc.

      But it certainly doesn't mean that a non designer should make the layout. It will be probably technically perfect but it will be usually plain ugly too.

    5. Re:Art Institute by spooje · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As I teach a web design class at the Cleveland Institute of Art, I know what you're saying is nonesense. There are plenty of "Institute of Art" schools who teach web design to n00bs based on good industry practice.

      You just need to check out the class before hand and talk to the instructor. Part of the problem the institutes have is that the pay is low compaired to doing actual design for the same amount of hours. If you want a class that's about clean and usable design tell the school, they always take potential student feedback into consideration when creating new classes and filling teaching positions.

      --
      Tea and kung-fu. Life is good. Rising Phoenix
    6. Re:Art Institute by klubar · · Score: 1

      You forgot to add that they will do the entire design in Photoshop and then just slice up the image into a giant table. The page will be huge and inaccessable.

      There really is a difference between a web and print designer. Much like there is a difference between a mainframe programmer and one who designs for embedded devices. Look at samples of the designers work...is it a good web page? How easy is it to find information? Can the information be updated easily?

      And whatever you do, just say NO to flash.

    7. Re:Art Institute by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Plenty of males in a graphic design industry. It's not male dominated, of course, but I'm not sure it's female dominated, either. Also, you should probably hire a web designer, rather than an artist or print designer, as only a web designer has a good idea of what designs will work on the web.

    8. Re:Art Institute by sootman · · Score: 1

      I agree 100%--if you want it to be really good, hire someone. HOWEVER--it IS entirely possible to learn the basics of good design and use them. There is plenty of good-looking stuff you can do which, while it won't win awards, it will be more appealing that totally-unformatted HTML. Go to a bookstore and browse through their design section and find some basic books on design. There are lots and they're easy to find, like The Non-Designer's Design Book by Robin Williams. (Not the comedian.) You can do plenty of nice work by learning a few basic rules and staying conservative. And copy, copy, copy! Find a color scheme you like, find a layout you like that works with your content, and go with it. If the organization has colors, start with that. (Just hope they picked well in the first place.) Just don't go too far with your copying. :-)

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    9. Re:Art Institute by gregmac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You forgot to add that they will do the entire design in Photoshop and then just slice up the image into a giant table. The page will be huge and inaccessable.


      This is where someone good at HTML/CSS comes in. The catch is that they have to realize they suck at graphic design, and not try to do any changes - just take the photoshop stuff, and turn it into proper HTML/CSS and chop up the images appropriately.

      I sort of see this area as a gradient, that goes from "programmer" to "web developer" to "web designer" to "graphic designer".

      At one end, you have programmers that don't understand web technology, who make pages that require explicitly clicking on a "Submit" button instead of being able to press enter in a search box, do POSTs where a POST should not be required, stupid use of URL parameters, sensitive data in cookies, etc. On the other far end, you have graphic designers who don't understand the web at all, and you end up with something ranging from a print brochure migrated to the web, to a site designed entirely in flash for no good reason other than "the transition effects are cool".

      Towards the middle, you have programmers that understand web technology, but can't design worth a crap. You can identify these people as the ones that back up their claims that they know how to design websites by saying they know HTML and Photoshop. When they design a site, you get an ugly, but functional site.

      You also have the web designers, who came from a graphic design background but maybe understand some HTML. Some of them are the types you just take the nicely-designed-in Photoshop page from and turn it into HTML/CSS, and others know how to do that properly on their own. In my experience most of these people don't try to program at all, but if they do it's the sort of thing that ends up on the dailywtf.

      I've also met a couple of people that are very good at both web design and development. Both came from the graphic design side and then learned how to program. I think these people are few and far between, though - even though I'm sure there's a great many people that claim to be here.

      --
      Speak before you think
    10. Re:Art Institute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess I wasted all four years going to college to learn about color theory and typography when I should have just gone to a local degree mill in the evenings after working at starbucks during the day.. OR I could just grab some tutorials on color theory, I can't believe I wasted 4 years and all that money on a degree!

    11. Re: Art Institute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      eww... are you suggesting that he hire an art student so he can get web design cheap? wait 'til someone takes that attitude toward your job. "oh just go down to the local technical college and get one of those programmer kids to do it in exchange for a new Xbox and a stack of comic books..." you get what you pay for. hire a professional.

    12. Re:Art Institute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Local Art institutes do not teach reality in graphics. Especially graphics that does not clog the band width.

      That doesn't have to be true, you just need to find the right students, at the right school. Avoid "Art Institutes" and for heaven's sake avoid "Fine Arts" students. Depending on where you are you might want to avoid "local" too. There's no reason this has to be done face to face.

      Instead seek out a good design school (Parsons School of Design in New York is top notch.) Hire a communications design student (they have a service to offer students part time work just like this.)

      There's another option too, of course.. Find web sites that "work" for you. Contact them, most of the time they will be happy to recommend their designer (particularly if said designer was underpaid and they feel a bit guilty.)

      An eye for design is like an ear for music... You have it or you don't and it's hard to "wing it." Even if you have a theoretically solid template to work with it's very easy to screw it up if you don't have talent. The good news is, talent can come cheap if you know where to look.

    13. Re:Art Institute by oliderid · · Score: 1

      And whatever you do, just say NO to flash.

      Personnally I like FLASH...For the simple reason that it gives me around 50% of my income right now. Flash is truly favoured by designer. They simply love it. They've got things they understand: vector, bitmpas, layers, etc. And most importantly they can "click", they don't need to type (they are litteraly afraid of typing codes)
      They don't understand Actionscript. So a lot of my juicy contracts are about injecting actionscript codes similar to a good old HTML Form and beeing paid a fortune as an "Actionscript expert" (don't laugh) :-).

      Most programmers consider ActionScript like some crap (it is)). But financially it does mean that there is a very cosy niche market for folks like me.
      So keep saying No to flash please ;-)

    14. Re:Art Institute by pelorus · · Score: 1

      Most of your arguments are a little out of date. Its not just 'Flash' vs HTML. We have CSS as well, to cope with your 'impossible' layouts.

    15. Re:Art Institute by zerocool^ · · Score: 1


      Well, sort of. They may not be great at optimizing for web usage, but if they can come up with the right graphics, I mean, how hard is it to resize and save-for-web from a graphics program.

      ~Wx

      --
      sig?
    16. Re:Art Institute by FLEB · · Score: 1

      You can still get "impossible designs" from print people. The ones I've often seen involve not understanding that there's no set "page size", and that you have to design for expansion and contraction. You'll have layouts that look great in a 1024x768 Photoshop file, but start to fall apart when you have to either expand them to wider or end up with whitespace on the sides.

      Or you just end up with the "static block in the center of a field of boring space" (or the "one flash file smack in the center") website that pretty much points to "print designer out of their element".

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    17. Re:Art Institute by Metasquares · · Score: 1

      Developers should be creative too. Problem solving is often an extremely creative process.

    18. Re:Art Institute by jdinkel · · Score: 1

      I HATE sites done entirely in flash. A part of the page, like a banner or a single graphic in flash is ok, but I hate it when the entire page or at least the bulk of it is done in flash. Admittedly though, I do excuse homestarrunner.com for this.

  24. Too easy to get wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you don't have lots of experience, a natural talent or at least some training and a little experience, it's going to take a while to come up with something. The problem with that is: The longer you look at your design, the more you tweak it, the more you lose sight of what it looks like to someone who hasn't looked at it all day. It is very easy to go overboard with colors, bevels, shadows, gradients or whatever you like without realizing that you're not making a website to your own taste. Small businesses need functional, informative websites that don't look bad. Snazzy is for the big guys who can afford professional designers. Small websites tend to drift off into tackyness when the one man IT department tries out Photoshop for the first time. Good web design isn't just a trip to the library and a weekend with a "for dummies" book away.

  25. First, understand what graphic design does. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...how to make it more appealing without losing the ability to communicate effectively."

    Graphic design is more about communicating effectively than just making it "more appealing". If all you succeed in doing is making it pretty, you didn't improve it.

    Try looking at local art colleges. You might be able to find a student there that's willing to work cheaply and you'll still get quality work.

  26. A CSS book, Inkscape & gimp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the business want "rebranding", you'd be best to hire a designer. If they already have a logotype and associated design elements, you should be fine reconstructing and tweaking these in inkscape/Xara (assuming you know how to use them).

    As for the CSS, learning it is time consuming. Translating a mockup into CSS is time consuming. Debugging layouts cross browser is time consuming.

    The fact you had to ask is telling; the prospects of getting a local designer to skin the site are probably looking attractive?

  27. Use a CMS that supports Templates by Khalid · · Score: 1

    Just use a CMS that supports templates, Joomla is a good choice imho, then buy a professional template that fits your needs. There are also many free templates around, try to a search in emule too.

  28. Agreed-hire an artist by LinDVD · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just got back from an Adobe Flash 3D (Papervision 3d) training approximately one week ago, and there were many designers who attended. There were also some coders, but all the larger companies hire full blown artists. For example, Starbucks currently has two artists who create the concepts, and then they have two Actionscript/PHP coders who translate the artists' vision, and they have a back end coder for database stuff and other heavy-logic items. If an artistic element is a requirement, you really should outsource/hire someone who actually has a true art background (with experience in visual design), because artists just think in very different ways than coders do, and most people can't bridge the gaps. Sure, you can make something that could be pretty good, but it will never have the actual "feel" of an art project.

    One more thing-80% of the audience had MacBook pro's. Why? The majority of people felt that the workflow was more intuitive/refined than what Microsoft Windows has to offer.

    --
    Just because you get modded "insightful" on Slashdot doesn't mean you actually are in real life.
    1. Re:Agreed-hire an artist by fastest+fascist · · Score: 1

      When you say "artist", I think you mean "designer".

  29. Open Source Web Design by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Informative

    You might want to take a look at Open Source Web Design, even if they do not have exactly what you want their templates will give you a good starting point for your layout and design.

    1. Re:Open Source Web Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      exactly what I was going to suggest... OSWD is exactly what you need, and at the right price, too! ;-)

  30. Knuth, the typesetting expert by mariox19 · · Score: 1

    Knuth did go from mere legendary computer scientist to typesetting expert [...]

    Yes, and in only 10 years.

    --

    quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

    1. Re:Knuth, the typesetting expert by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      and a few graduate students.

      Of course, roff/nroff/troff were used for typesetting 10 years before that.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  31. A Contrarian View by Phoenix666 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Good design is not black magic. There are rules and conventions just like there are for any other discipline. There are also trends and fashions like there are for any other discipline. You can learn them, if you want.

    There are sites that serve as reference points for design professionals; There are many, but this is one: http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/current-style.cfm

    So look through the galleries of what design professionals themselves consider exemplary, then shamelessly copy; after all, that's exactly what design professionals do--they're constantly stealing from each other.

    Beyond that, you only require finicky, anal attention to detail. If things don't look evenly spaced, measure it with the ruler tools. If the font renders fuzzy, use a better one. But chances are, if you're in I.T. you already possess the fine attention to detail required.

    In sum, it's a different way of thinking, but not impossible or even that difficult to acquire. Fair warning, though, if you start wearing those glasses you may suddenly find yourself remarking how that women's shoes don't go with her outfit, or the stitching on his jacket is clumsy, or that the lines on the new Mazda give you an angular, cramped impression.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
    1. Re:A Contrarian View by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      I was wondering if anybody was gonna post something other than, "oh noez! ur IT man, u cant do grafix!" It's not as if you must be some kind of artistic genius to be a designer--as you pointed out it's a job with skills that can be learned by almost anybody (at least enough to get by in a business setting). It just takes some effort. Thanks for the link, too; it seems quite helpful.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    2. Re:A Contrarian View by Bluesman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fair warning, though, if you start wearing those glasses you may suddenly find yourself remarking how that women's shoes don't go with her outfit. . .

      Or how Steve Jobs is the hottest guy on the face of the earth, because he's a technical AND artistic genius. I mean, just LOOK at how well the Mac works and how beautiful it is!

      --
      If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    3. Re:A Contrarian View by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      Ok - fine - let's talk about tools. Is he ready to dive into Photoshop CS3 and not stare at the screen like it's the flight deck of a 757? Asthetics, communication and a good eye is just one part of the battle. Lets talk tools and workflow. Want to stick your hand into that trap?

      I wouldn't anymore than I would relish learning a shitload of server-side admin tools and custom version controlware in the middle of MY workflow process.

    4. Re:A Contrarian View by cbart387 · · Score: 1

      Although I can hold my own with HTML, PHP and a couple SQL products, graphic design isn't one of my strengths. Going off the summary, graphic design isn't his strength.

      "oh noez! ur IT man, u cant do grafix!" Ignoring the inflammatory phrasing* ...

      Let's assume his graphical design weakness is just because of inexperience. Does the submitter (and his business) really want his first foray into design to be his company's website? It would be more responsible, at the very least, to talk to someone experienced in website design. A designer can share his thoughts with the submitter and give some direction. He's obviously not sure what direction to go since he's asking slashdot. The best approach to take, in my view, is to talk face-to-face with a designer about the site in question.

      * If you want to convince people, mocking them is counter-productive. It's just going to make people mad and possibly lead to a flame war. At the very least people are going to focus on the phrasing and not the content. The adage You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar is quite apt here.
      --
      Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    5. Re:A Contrarian View by netbanshee · · Score: 1

      There are rules and conventions just like there are for any other discipline.
      Here, here. You'd be surprised how many designers can forget that too.

      As mentioned in other comments, your best bet is to go to a professional who has a decent portfolio and a defined process. I work with plenty of designers and teach a class in web design so I see the benefits almost daily. The process is the main focus of the work we do in either environment.

      Schools often approach designing web pages in various ways and can miss many of the important elements that make a page work (grids, usability, easy to navigate, etc.). This oftentimes happens because many professors haven't been hands on in the arena in many a year and haven't kept up to current standards. As we all know, plenty has changed. I'd be careful when going to a student because ultimately you'll end up with student work in most cases.

      Good process generally looks like this:
      1. Survey Technical Factors - clearly define the goals of the job / technical needs and restraints
      2. Sitemap - general hierarchy and page structure
      3. Mood Board - pull visual elements, patterns, colors, photography and typeface choices that culminate into a look that can work for the job
      4. Page Outline - define the elements and functionality present on each page
      5. Wireframing - create a design agnostic layout / grid containing all of the page elements for each page
      6. Design - "skin" the wireframe with the look that has been developing
      7. Production - front-end and back-end, etc.

      If you talk to someone who makes good looking sites and has this sort of approach in their back pocket, you'll have the kind of foundation you're looking for. Hopefully, the color palette won't go past 3-4 colors (black and white being two) and the typeface choice won't extend past 3-4 (bold and italics being two).

      --
      A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
    6. Re:A Contrarian View by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A List Apart: http://www.alistapart.com/ The only, the best, bar none.

    7. Re:A Contrarian View by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love Steve Jobs, but let's give credit where credit is due. Steve is a salesman.
      The macintosh was built by many many people.
      Back in the day, Woz built the original mac. Today, it's handled by less famous engineers.
      Various components of the design are handled by Jonathan Ive, not by His Steveness.

      If anything, this reinforces the concept of "stick to what you know". Hire a professional to do your design work.

  32. Heresy! by YourExperiment · · Score: 1

    (Windows and Linux are both OK). You must be new here.
  33. Parent post is right! by LinuxDon · · Score: 1

    If you want an affordable solution, purchase a ready-made template for a CMS.
    You could then always hire someone to tweak it according to your wishes.

    This leads to the following:
    - Quick implementation time;
    - Low costs;
    - Someone non-technical can update the content so you don't have to do it.

    As a technical person, I know I will never burn my fingers again on designing a website myself! Being good at PHP etc. is one thing, but designing a site or template that actually looks right is something completely different. It requires a skill that you either do, or do not have. In my experience, most technical people don't have them. :)

  34. If you must do it yourself amybe this book. by COMICAGOGO · · Score: 1

    Hi, I work as a graphic designer and I can tell you making a really good UI design is tough. Just try to keep it as simple as possible and make sure that absolutely everything on your page is there for a purpose.

    I would go with the "pay a graphic design student to do it" route if you can (talk to the teachers at your local school. A lot of students will do this kind of work for free to help them complete course work.)

    If you do it yourself this book might help. "Homepage Usability 50 websites deconstructed" by Jakob Neilsen & Marie Tahir (ISBN: 0-7357-1102-x) It is a bit dated but goes into detail about how successful websites breakdown things like screen real estate and use of effective graphics.

    Hope this helps a bit.

  35. CSS Zen Garden by Xelios · · Score: 4, Informative

    The CSS Zen Garden is a great place to get some ideas. No book will teach you creativity, you can learn some general rules or tips and tricks but good design ultimately comes down to experience. The best advice, in my opinion, is to keep it simple and clean. Most visitors will appreciate a clean, easy to navigate site more than fancy flash graphics or a Photoshop jungle.

    --
    Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
    1. Re:CSS Zen Garden by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      I LOVE that site. I am glad it got mentioned in this topic. Thank you!

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  36. I've been in your situation too by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

    ...and frankly, designing can be cool with the patience to try it, but in your case I expect that'll be at the expensive of literally everything else. Suggest either very very basic but clean designs that you can do quickly or outsource it to someone else.

    Places like http://www.getacoder.com/ are good for outsourcing one-off projects, even for design. If design becomes a constant requirement, get someone full time.

    That's the way forward.

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
  37. Templates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    www.templatemonster.com

  38. think about design patterns and templates! by ATL_gadget_grrl · · Score: 1

    In the spirit of teaching a man to fish rather than handing him a fish, let me recommend that you check out design patterns and page templates. Here are some *great* resources:
    http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/
    http://www.welie.com/patterns/
    http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/salaakso/patterns/
    http://ui-patterns.com/docs/pages/about

    This will give you the basics on what needs to go on the page (interaction and information design). If you then skin these items with color palettes that are pleasing to you, you're pretty much good to go. Here are a couple of color palette resources:
    http://redalt.com/Tools/I+Like+Your+Colors
    http://www.degraeve.com/color-palette/index.php (this one is particularly interesting to me in theory - I have not used it, but it seems promising)

  39. Buy a Template by jafiwam · · Score: 1

    Decent templates (including some flash, all the graphics, layout and sample menus) can be had for less than $100. Sometimes WAY less.

    Just make sure the people who you need to please get a chance to help pick it out.

    Then, add your ADA and whatnot BEFORE you start adding content.

    If it's a small business, you don't need SQL and PHP (those just make it easier for security problems to creep in) just a set of flat HTML files and a plain text editor is all you need.

    I have been down the same road you are on before, and it is much better and easier if you confine the project to what it really NEEDS to be, not what you think you can build.

    1. Re:Buy a Template by ItsIllak · · Score: 1

      Templates are great, my personal favourite is Template Monster. I find the best process to take is to take a brief, search through for some template options that are likely, print them out or Powerpoint a presentation of them to the customer. Let them choose from that subset (or send you off for more).

  40. exact same situation - my $.02 by in_ur_face · · Score: 1

    I'm in the same boat, I administer the family business website (now #1 in sales in USA for their product). As a SW developer I can program, but graphics and design, not so good. Either way, just keep trying. Approx every 2 years I'll refresh the site's graphics and design. Photoshop will be your friend. I don't think any books will really help, you need to try some trial/error. Also, look at other sites to get ideas, nothing wrong with tweaking an existing site that you like. You'll get better and learn on the way; even build your own portfolio. Or, you can hire out... but that's hard when you are a DIY'er

  41. A list apart by MacDork · · Score: 1

    AListApart.com is my fav. It's code, it's style, it has explanations and step by step examples. I really enjoy reading that site. It focuses on making compliant code and code that works with the not so compliant browsers that people actually use, all at the same time.

  42. Templates by reclusivemonkey · · Score: 1

    Do yourself a favour; find a template you like, make sure its got the appropriate license and use that. It will save you a lot of time and effort. You sound like you have enough on already!

  43. Open source web design by crivens · · Score: 1
  44. Seriously don't... by emilng · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Copying someone's site design is bad policy in general.
    I think the many people who either give the advice to copy or copy another site themselves risk ending up on this site:
    http://pirated-sites.com/

    I graduated with a BFA and took my share of communication design courses.
    I worked hard the past 7 years learning to be a competent developer so I've been on both sides of the boat.
    It's just bad to have some douchebag steal the site design it actually took a design degree and years of experience to create.
    Geek translation: It's like someone putting GPL code in closed source software.
    You 're familiar with the geek outrage when that happens.
    Well that's the same outrage that designers feel when you steal a site design.

    1. Re:Seriously don't... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well that's the same outrage that designers feel when you steal a site design.

      Excuse me? How in the world do you "steal" something as abstract as a site design?

      It sounds sounds like Apple's ludicrous "look and feel" lawsuits.

      "OMG! You thief! You used a three-column layout, a sans-serif font for headers, a menu across the top, and a gradient for a background! You stole my design!"

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    2. Re:Seriously don't... by skiingyac · · Score: 1

      First off, I'm not suggesting exact copying. I'm suggesting mimicking. Which I think is completely different from what you're accusing it of being (copyright violation)

      REAL translation #1: LG's Voyager phone mimicking the iPhone
      REAL translation #2: Openoffice's UI mimicking Microsoft Office
      REAL translation #3: An artist recording & selling a song that is based on some song Y by another artist.
      REAL translation #4: KDE/Gnome/etc. mimicking Windows UI, Gimp mimicking photoshop, and an incredibly long list of other open source programs mimicking very closely their non-free counterparts.

      So my website has completely different HTML/CSS code (written without looking at your code), but looks quite similar to yours. How is this any different from anything else? If I'm not copying your logo, or trying to use your brand recognition to my benefit, or copying something which I am legally not allowed to copy, then TOO BAD.

      In none of the cases I listed above does anyone have to pay anybody for use, nor are they breaking any laws.

      You can't copyright a color scheme or a layout or whatever. Even if you wanted to, there are other people who have done it already, so whatever website I use for my inspiration has no doubt been inspired by someone else, so I'm not doing anything different than they did.

    3. Re:Seriously don't... by skiingyac · · Score: 1

      thank you for helping set him straight

    4. Re:Seriously don't... by emilng · · Score: 1

      Excuse me? How in the world do you "steal" something as abstract as a site design?
      It's not abstract when they are taking html and css code verbatim, using text content verbatim, and using any graphics that were on the original site and just modifying some of the text on the graphics around. THAT is how they "steal" a site design. If you actually checked the pirated-site link you would have seen that for yourself. Of course you could just be a troll and in that case, my bad for replying.

    5. Re:Seriously don't... by emilng · · Score: 1
      First off, I'm not suggesting exact copying. I'm suggesting mimicking. Which I think is completely different from what you're accusing it of being (copyright violation)

      mimic
      1. to imitate or copy in action, speech, etc., often playfully or derisively.
      2. to imitate in a servile or unthinking way; ape.
      3. to be an imitation of; simulate; resemble closely.

      I'm actually not accusing it of being a copyright violation. I'm saying following someone's else's design so closely that you can obviously tell that your design is completely based off their design is a douchbag thing to do which incurs anger from the design community equal to the anger incurred from the geek community when they hear about GPL violations or patent trolling.

      So to reiterate - Am I saying that it's legally wrong? NO.
      Am I saying that it's a jerk thing to do? YES.
    6. Re:Seriously don't... by skiingyac · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about doing that? I think you made that up in your head or are just angry that someone has done what you described (not what I described) to you.

      BTW, I did check the pirated-sites.com link, and I only found 1 example of the first 10 or so that I looked at where someone had actually copied someone else's html/css/flash code for their site. The rest were people whining about someone else using a black/white/pink color scheme, or complaining about people copying the content off their website (which is COMPLETELY different).

    7. Re:Seriously don't... by skiingyac · · Score: 1

      Except that a GPL violation isn't just being a jerk, it is an illegal copyright violation. So stop comparing the two. Patent trolling is intentionally inflicting monetary pain on someone else, which is not what I'm suggesting either, so stop comparing the two.

      My point is that the design of EVERYTHING is based on or mimics the design of one or more other things. It happens to everyone. Either write your congressman and get it outlawed, or deal with it.

      I'm not even suggesting copying some other website so closely you can tell one was copied from the other. I'm suggesting, you already have a website that needs to look nicer, borrow some ideas from other websites. You can take a color scheme from one, ideas for extra little graphics from another, etc. The point is, if you're not a graphic designer, and want a website that looks like it was designed by a professional, then copy enough things that WERE done by professionals so that it looks good but you didn't have to hire anyone.

    8. Re:Seriously don't... by emilng · · Score: 1

      I was not comparing GPL violation to Patent trolling. I was comparing the RESPONSE from the geek community to the two to the RESPONSE from the design community.
      geekResponse(gplViolation || patentTrolling) == designerResponse(siteDesignCopying) // angry and riled up

      This is what you suggested in your original post:
      If you mimic some non-popular website's look, and your website also isn't that popular, nobody will notice or care (not that you can get in trouble for this as far as I know)

      Which is quite different from:
      I'm not even suggesting copying some other website so closely you can tell one was copied from the other. I'm suggesting, you already have a website that needs to look nicer, borrow some ideas from other websites.

      If this is what you had suggested originally then I wouldn't have bothered replying. It's normal to do that. Designers do it all the time.

    9. Re:Seriously don't... by skiingyac · · Score: 1

      I can't see how the responses should be the same, because they are completely different.

      In my first sentence of my original post I said "more or less mimic" meaning "take ideas from" or "use as a starting point", not "directly copy every aspect of their design without changing anything". The point of the sentence YOU quoted was to restrict this suggestion to non-popular websites. I.e. if you are designing dell.com and you mimic the design of apple.com you might run into some issues with brand dilution or some other random law.

    10. Re:Seriously don't... by emilng · · Score: 1

      I can't see how the responses should be the same, because they are completely different. Obviously the two groups aren't going to say exactly the same thing to completely different topics but the emotional level of response is the same. The point was that if you're going to do a jerk thing then you're going to get people pissed off at you. The comparison was meant to convey how pissed off designers will get if you copy a web design by comparing that to how pissed off geeks get at topics that really piss them off, but obviously that point completely flew over your head. This is my last post on this matter. Your original post seemed to me like it was encouraging people to copy other people's website designs. I made a reply addressing that concern. I'm not going to continue debating with the internet about the finer points of whether that's right or wrong. I stand by my reply and obviously you stand by your original post. I'm going to leave it at that.

    11. Re:Seriously don't... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      It's not abstract when they are taking html and css code verbatim, using text content verbatim, and using any graphics that were on the original site and just modifying some of the text on the graphics around. THAT is how they "steal" a site design.

      If you're "stealing" text or graphics, that's not "stealing" a design, it's "stealing" content. (Copying is not theft, but that's a different argument.)

      I think it would be pretty hard to show infringement on the use of HTML/CSS markup. It's perfectly fair to look at the markup to see how a site gets that fluid width three-column layout or whatever and use the same trick; and there's not a lot of possible variation on how to express that same trick in markup.

      If you actually checked the pirated-site link you would have seen that for yourself.

      I checked the link. I saw no complaints of substance; perhaps there's a specific one of two you'd like to point out?

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    12. Re:Seriously don't... by emilng · · Score: 1

      http://www.pirated-sites.com/vanilla/comments.php?DiscussionID=534&page=1#Item_0
      identical markup down to comments - some changed text content

      I found this from the flickr group - http://flickr.com/photos/34923023@N00/
      http://www.autodemontageverwijst.nl/ - original
      http://www.sinotrad.com/ - copied - chunks of identical markup - same div class id names including misspellings.

      I forgot how some geeks get bent out of shape about the use of the word, "stealing" vs. "copying", so when I said "stealing" I meant "copying".

      I don't feel like debating with you or the rest of the internet on this matter any further. If you want to feel like you've won some argument on the internet feel free. I'd rather spend my time on more productive pursuits like catching up on sleep or learning to be a better programmer.

  45. Either you have it or you don't. by Computershack · · Score: 1
    Either you have an artistic bent or you don't. You can be taught the techniques but unless you have the creative streak needed, it's not going to get you anywhere.
    My missus designs signs and posters. I know far more about the gear and software she's using but give me a blank screen and I haven't a clue what to put on it.

    Pay someone who does this for a living. It'll save you a lot of grief.

    --
    I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
  46. useful points by Doctor+Crumb · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've muddled through over the years, mostly by looking at what actual graphic designers have done and trying to learn their techniques. A few things to remember:

    * a boring design is better than an ugly one. Don't try too hard.
    * learn about negative space, colour theory, and usability. There's generally math behind them that you can learn and use.
    * go find some attractive sites, try to figure out 2 or 3 elements that you like, and try to copy them.
    * don't be afraid to rip off other sites; generally by the time you're done tweaking, your design won't look anything like the original. (Just don't steal their actual images or code)
    * HTML naturally leads to boxy layouts; that's okay! Don't mangle your HTML trying to avoid it; you can de-boxify with CSS and images.
    * find an artist friend and get them to critique your design; a few offhand comments from them can save you days!
    * most of the neat effects on the web these days are clever images (3-column layouts, reflection effects, rounded corners), and most of the rest are clever CSS.
    * you *can* get the same level of quality as a professional designer, it will just take you 100x as long.
    * http://www.alistapart.com/
    * http://www.csszengarden.com/

    That said, you probably don't want to be learning this stuff on the job while your servers catch on fire. It will be better for all involved if your boss hires someone who is already a talented designer; even an amateur designer will probably be faster than you. Design is definitely a time-money tradeoff; professional designers charge a lot because they do good work quickly. If you really want to learn this stuff, you probably don't want to do it under a deadline.

    1. Re:useful points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great list! I'll add one more point.

      When you work on a page, there is an order to design which goes
        - start with what you want to present
        - then plan the layout (how to present it)
        - then write simple html
        - last figure out the CSS to show your page the way you want, adding identifiers in the html where needed

  47. Hire someone by mrbarkeeper · · Score: 0

    You won't like this answer but if I were you, I'd calculate my income versus the time it would take me to learn and do the design on my own and then hire someone for this budget. You can find great talent on http://www.elance.com/ and elsewhere.

    If you insist on rolling your own, I'd start with this book: The Non-Designer's Design Book by Robin Williams. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0321534042

  48. Quick and easy with a tutorial by boocube · · Score: 1

    The open source web design site oswd.org, mentioned earlier, is a really great site to check out. If you use dreamweaver and are willing to learn as you apply a template then check out the project seven (http://www.projectseven.com/) website. Each template cost, but you get a tutorial with them. The tutorials will help you with css, and section 508 compliance.

  49. Good book by theeddie55 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I was pretty much in the same situation until somebody recommended to me "The Principles of Beautiful Web Design" By Jason Beaird http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Beautiful-Web-Design/dp/0975841963/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202658998&sr=8-1 since then I've done several websites and got several contracts from people who've seen those sites. The book assumes you know stuff like HTML and CSS and just covers things like layout, color schemes and graphics.

    1. Re:Good book by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

      I see several people have recommended Tuffle.

      Tuffle? That's silly.

      No doubt he's a genius, and the advanced designer can learn tons from him.

      However the posting is asking about basic web design.

      This is like me saying I have a problem figuring out the best way to point my drain spout off my house, and SlashDot readers coming back and saying "well, that's essentially a physics problem. Einstein was a Physics genius, so you should probably look to his research for the answer"

    2. Re:Good book by craiga · · Score: 1

      I second this. This is a really good book that gives practical advice for people just like you and me. Check it out over at the publisher's site.

    3. Re:Good book by kjmoran · · Score: 1

      I wish to hell people would stop recommending amazon. There are literally tens of thousands of free, beautifully-written books on design online. I've been a professional designer for over 30 years. I've taught myself to program so I could extend my repertoire. Neither of these disciplines is rocket science. Basic design skills are something everyone writing for the web should learn. When you want something truly beautiful, or amazingly complicated, that's when you turn to the pros. Take the diapers off and do some homework.

      --
      kjm
  50. Hire a Marketing and Design intern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hire a marketing intern, and a design intern, and between them they should know everything you need to know to complete a successful corporate site design. There aren't any opportunities for lots of bright graduates that are just sitting around getting data mined.

    Its a lot more than simply creating images that look nice, there are legal, user interface, and other important issues that go into a successful design.

  51. HTML is *NOT* Art by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I run into this misunderstanding all the time, on both sides (geek and suit).

    There is nothing about being a "geek" or knowing HTML, CSS, or javascript that magically grants someone designer chops. It's like expecting the guy who sets type and runs the printing press to be a novelist or journalist, or expecting the chemist who mixes the paint to also be a canvas artist.

    This misunderstanding was prevalent back when the web was "new" (circa '94-95), but it's inexcusable today. In any case, it's a lot easier to teach HTML and CSS to a legitimate designer, than design to an HTML jockey.

    If the work of a real designer or design firm is simply not in the budget (which is crazy talk, because there are firms online that grind this stuff out now for chump change), than find some CSS book with a CD full of templates that grant license to modify. But please, for the sake of art, sanity, and all that's holy, keep IT out of web design!

    Please note: Code is *not* poetry, and HTML is not code...

    1. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by oktokie · · Score: 0

      This is a good sign that your employer does not really understand his own business's needs.

      Do yourself a favor. Get a new job.

      .

    2. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by ashooner · · Score: 1

      While knowing html by no means gives you aesthetic capability, a designer who doesn't understand the fundamentals of how xhtml + CSS behaves will not be worth your time as a designer. A 'graphic designer' could very easily be someone who has focussed on media other then websites, and has little to no understanding of liquid layout, element floating, or even typography options. And as far as HTML not being code, try telling that to the graphic designer that doesn't understand it.

      --
      They Are Night Zombies!! They Are Neighbors!! They Have Come Back from the Dead!! Ahhhh!
    3. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This misunderstanding was prevalent back when the web was "new" (circa '94-95), but it's inexcusable today. In any case, it's a lot easier to teach HTML and CSS to a legitimate designer, than design to an HTML jockey.


      He's not an HTML jockey, he's an actual IT guy. I'm a systems analyst for a small organization and I run into this all the time, so I took a class in user interface design and another class in web design as taught by a guy who came from magazine publishing and layout background. The bottom line is, that so-called artists know jack shit about creating a usable site. The only thing I need them for is to pretty up a few templates with their Photoshop wizardry so I can get on with it.

      As far as the coursework, those two classes were great with respect to designing a decently coherent site that wasn't offensive to the human eyeball. The design course taught by the ex-publishing guy was invaluable are there are rules that us techs do not know about, but after cranking up some banners and footers artists and so-called "designers" just aren't needed that much for a utilitarian site. Sure, if your business is artwork by all means, but otherwise I can contract with guys in eastern Europe over the web to get it done cheaply. (I think you alluded to this)

      And don't get me started on "web designers" who think they know how to write decent code.

      Please note: Code is *not* poetry, and HTML is not code...


      I can agree with the latter, but if you believe the former you've not worked with well-designed code on a sufficiently complex system. I see inspired algorithms every once in awhile that have a fabulous implementation, and indeed they do approach poetry. Anybody who says otherwise is either dense or just not experienced enough to "get it".
    4. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by mysticgoat · · Score: 5, Informative

      While parent post is not untrue, it comes across as a self-serving piece written by a graphics designer who needs to convince the world that he has much value to add to someone else's web site engineering. I don't know that is the case, but that is the appearance the words convey.

      Graphics design is not all about Mysterious Talent: there are some basic rules that can be learned and applied by anyone. Conforming to these rules will add "punch" to your web pages, whether you understand the reasons for them or not. Use of them will not of itself get you any artistic awards, but since they can be translated into your daily work with CSS on layout and color, they can be applied without increasing your operating expenses. Which appears to be what the boss wants. It seems very unlikely that the boss is going to add the cost of a contract with a graphics design artist to the company's overhead. The goal is clear: take what has been done and make it better. Don't throw it away and reconstruct with someone else's template. Grow what's already done into a more pleasing form.

      Google for "color theory" and "graphic composition": those are the two basic fields you need to look at.

      Under color theory, look for discussions of

      • the color wheel,
      • monochromatic color schemes,
      • tinted, shaded, and muddied colors (going toward browns or earth colors)
      • complementary colors,
      • use of contrasting colors,
      • color temperature (warm colors vs cool colors)
      • You'll come across other terms as you go through this material: check them out too

      Under composition, look for discussions of

      • basics of visual perception (how the eye scans an image) and how to guide that
      • rule of thirds
      • golden rectangles
      • use of circles
      • use of intersecting diagonals
      • active and passive shapes
      • check out the other terms you stumble upon as you go through this list

      What you probably want to do is to find some formula that will work for the web site, can be applied throughout it (helps with "branding" by providing the user with a constant, reliable theme), and can be followed pretty much as a recipe (without you needing to remember what the rules are or why this set of details works). A $20 set of watercolors, or even a box of crayons, can help in exploring and gathering comments on initial drafts of the presentation. The end result will probably be mostly CSS snippets you can treat as black boxes.

      Another excellent resource is an artist supply store that caters to newbies and hobbyists: it will have books on beginning watercolor or acrylic painting that will go over this material, and it should have a clerk or two who are helpful.

    5. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this comment overlooks both the time factor and the talent factor required. You can't just study art and think that it will work any more than you can tell yourself you're going to draw a portrait after reading a book about portraiture (though if you start out with nothing, studying art theory won't make anything _worse_). There are certainly elements of graphic design that can be learned, but that does not automatically compute into a well designed, visually interesting site, and if you're on any kind of a time frame this is one arena where getting someone's help makes a lot of sense. Art historians often have spectacular theoretical knowledge about art and its complex elements; a scant few are artists in their own right, and that's because the understanding of art and the doing of it are completely separate things. If you're dying to learn art, just get someone to teach you the basics and work with you until you're in the right ballpark. Paint, sculpt, draw, take photos. But books on art theory do not an artist make. HTML or CSS or any programming languages are building blocks with direct results, but art theory isn't: if you enclose something in H3 it will be H3, but just because a color wheel sets up blue and orange as opposites, it doesn't mean that's a better choice for a site than black and white, or compliments or whatever...just because it worked for one artist in a certain style at a certain time, doesn't mean it will work at all in your website. The rule of thirds is a general rule that's often stale and boring, certainly in photography (I'm a professional photographer and studied art for years; I also design my websites). And by the same token, all of the "theory" of graphic design is extraneous if someone has natural artistic talent. You don't need to study art theory to be able to capture the ineffable on paper. Perhaps the author of the post _does_ have this talent, but it takes years to learn art theory and it doesn't necessarily translate one for one into a good website. You don't _need_ an understanding of art theory to produce a great website if you've already got artistic talent. You do, of course, need to teach yourself the code basics to do it. One usesful tool for color choices might be Agave: it provides a variety of "good" color combinations. Another good idea is to simply forget the art theory and look at websites you like. Ask WHY this site appeals to you and this one doesn't. Try to see how your eye moves across the page. But there are hundreds of reasons why site design is very different from art as well: a Flash intro might be visually and artistically great, but I bet most of us just can't stand the damn things because we're just wanting _information_ and Flash wastes our time. So if you want a good website, the most important thing is to provide, in a user-friendly way, the info and services that the customers need. A few hours of a graphic artist's time can fill in gaps in aesthetics, but your time will be best spent in the mechanics of the site, figuring out what it does and who it's for, than in trying to become another Picasso. If you've decided you're fascinated with art, great, get the watercolors and play around, but if you're on the clock and have to get a website made, focus on what's vital. If you haven't already realized you've got a good sense for what's aesthetically pleasing in a website and can't make notes about what would be good in your own, you'll be doing a disservice to yourself and your company by going this all alone. My tools for web design are Quanta, the GIMP, Inkscape, and a photo viewer -- gPhoto or showfoto. Agave's a fun toy but I invariably prefer colors that I choose because I _know_ they're right rather than because a book says to use this with that. Not sure if it's still in print, but the Joy of Photography II was one of the best books I had growing up as a kid, but most books say the same basic things. Learning them doesn't make you any better at art, even if you can talk about it more at the water cooler. Art is a f

    6. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      You can't just study art and think that it will work any more than...

      Clearly your post is is going to be an opinion of graphic and/or web design based upon experience, which I almost read.

      May I submit that anyone that posts a message that long without a single paragraph break has no expert advice to offer as a graphic designer? That's so basic that even non-designers are taught it by heart fairly early in their lives.

      You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not today. Maybe tomorrow you can pretend to be a lawyer and get away with it.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    7. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      The argument presented in parent post would be a tad more convincing if there had been an occasional HTML tag embedded in the content. Like maybe a <p> every few hundred words or so.

      One can't have a reasoned argument with an irrational mind. Arguing the merits of different approaches to web page design when in a state of abject cluelessness about the use of HTML seems pretty irrational.

    8. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by aevans · · Score: 1

      But it's a lot easier to teach good design to a legitimate HTML "coder" than to teach HTML and CSS to a design loser. Because a decent coder is way more creative (and intelligent) than you design types. He just took a different path.

    9. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by mike2R · · Score: 1

      I think you are undervaluing having a basic talent in this area, possibly because you have enough talent yourself that it doesn't seem anything special.

      I've learnt the hard way that I have no ability whatsoever when it comes to the purely visual elements of designing a website. I've done it a couple of times because there was no one else - even following a couple of the points you mention, especially using a colour wheel. I've even thought I've done an ok job, but if I use the Wayback machine to look at old versions of my sites now, I wince. My lack of ability in this area extends beyond not being good at it, I simply can't seem to distance myself from my own work well enough to assess it fairly; and I've come to think this is probably the most crucial ability that makes a competent graphic designer.

      Maybe you're right, if I really worked at it I could come up with something ok-ish - but really that's only going to happen if I absorb enough of the theory that I can essentially regurgitate a workable design, as you say "Conforming to these rules will add "punch" to your web pages, whether you understand the reasons for them or not."

      Really it makes much more sense for me to get someone who does have the basic talent to do the initial design and colour scheme. Once I have that I can play around with it and tweak it for usability etc.

      People I've worked with can knock out a design in an hour or two max that is of a quality that I'm never going to reach. Given how cheap it is to buy a ready made template or an hour or two of someone's time, and how important the visual design of a website is, trying to do it myself is a stupid false economy

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    10. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      So... you think the boss doesn't have it in the budget to bring someone in that can design a page in a few hours, but buying 3 books, spending a week reading about color theory, learning the principles of design and trying to distill practical pragmatic steps to then slowly sludge through the process of the design is more cost effective?

      The reason why I recommend Graphic designers is because of cost. I can program. I do program as part of my job. But the only reason I am do any programming as part of my job is because what I'm doing requires an intimate understanding of the art behind what I'm doing, something that would take a great deal of time to catch a programmer up on the nuances of. That being said, for big projects where a design doc can be written or the direction is clear I will always strongly recommend the hiring of a real true to life masters in computer science hardcore programmer. Why? Because it would take me a week to do what he takes a day to do. It might take me a day to learn how to write a complicated function that a programmer has written a thousand times and knows by heart.

      Unless the OP is really cheap or free. A designer will save you a ton of money.

      Disclaimer: Writer is not a web designer. In no way profits from web design. But is an artist and therefore might be biased.

    11. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are, of course, speaking for yourself. If my code's any good, it's poetry.

    12. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And guess what, Mr Goat, those things you listed are second-nature to a practiced graphic designer. So rather than suggesting that these "rules" be applied, like some sort of mathematical formula (doesn't work that way!), how about he just hire someone who knows what they're doing, while educating his boss at the same time?

      The whole "I can do it all and save the company too!" attitude is a disaster waiting to happen in any job role.

    13. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      3 words:
      - Good Taste and Experience
      (well, 4 words, but who's counting)

      I'm a Software developer. I've done my own web page designs in the past and I've worked together with graphics designers to create dynamic websites (meaning, sites that have executable code running on the back-end).

      Those guys (and gals) can come up with novel, elegant, visually attractive designs again and again and again By comparison, the sites i design (which don't look that bad) are crap.

      Most developers i know suffer the same problem as me: we tend to go towards the utilitarian, maybe with some pretty colors thrown in, but no elegance. We can copy somebody else's layout but we have trouble coming up with something which is both fresh and attractive.

      Graphics design is not a discipline deeply rooted in logic: it's really all about making something that's pleasing, and pleasure is hardly an easy to measure something defined by hard-rules.

      One can take a purely logical approach to designing a web site, including the good looks part of it. Usually the end result is something which will make the viewers vaguely remember some other site they've seen before ... probably because you've based the looks of your site on something that already exists.

      My advice, pay a web design company to come up with the basic image for the site and design some basic categories of pages (home page, about us page, products menus, template page about a product) and build up the rest of the site based on the image they created (in other words copy their style).

    14. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by gtada · · Score: 1

      While I agree that design is not about "mysterious talent", but I do think that a certain level of experience goes a long way. Yes, anyone can apply these design rules, but how well can they do it? There are a lot of rules to think about, I've seen a lot of people try and follow design rules but generated either boring or absolutely ghastly designs. "Taste" isn't a mysterious talent: some people have taste, others have to nurture it. I think most geeks fall into the latter group.

      Just be honest with yourself. Some people have a natural talent for it, but I definitely believe that anybody can be a good designer. Sometimes it takes a while though, and you have to ask yourself if it'd be better to hire somebody else to do it.

    15. Re:HTML is *NOT* Art by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      You raise some excellent points. But may I gently remind you that this is a small business with a one person IT department. It is not yet at a point where it can hire the work out, or even realistically assess how much work there is and what it would cost to hire it done.

      To paraphrase the original request, TFA asks "What can I do to develop whatever latent design talents I might have?"

      That is the question I addressed. Not whether this approach is the best possible for this particular business. Not whether developing latent design talent on its existing staff is a good or bad strategy for any given business. Simply this: what is it that someone with a strong IT background can do to learn a bit about graphics design work?

      It could be that author of TFA finds a new career as an internationally acclaimed graphics designer, because he has talent he didn't know about just oozing out of his pores. It could be that he has no talent for it at all.

      But even if has no talent, his boss has made a good business decision, for after a few weeks of study this guy is going to know enough to interview prospective GD contractors and at least identify the outright charlatans before they waste too much precious interview time. He will probably also be able identify those GDs who can communicate well enough about what they do that they would have some long term value for the company. This guy is working for a shrewd boss.

      Note that I am VERY LOUDLY NOT SAYING anything about GD talent. Talent is immaterial in this situation as in many other business situations. What matters is whether the finished web site affects its intended audience in the way the business intended. Whether that happens through award-winning talent or with a lackluster appearance that is made up for with other strengths doesn't matter.

      BTW, author of TFA missed a trick here. He should have used a unique moniker when he posted this to Slashdot rather than going anonymously. Then he could have done a follow-up article in 2 or 3 months, saying "this is what we've done, what do you guys think of it?" and gotten a nice spike in web traffic...

  52. hire someone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hire someone. The results will be better than anything you can do! Plus it will likely be cheaper compared to the amount of time you'll have to put in to get a mediocre result.

    Put up an ad in a local design school bulletin board and build a working relationship with a real (aspiring) designer.

  53. In the auto industry... by clintp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've run into this a few times and it's easy to explain:

    In the auto industry there are mechanics, powertrain engineers, and those guys that design bodies and interiors. (No bias from me at all!) You wouldn't want the guy picking paint colors and fabrics for the interiors to design your exhaust manifold; by the same token you don't want the guy who does the casting flow calculations for the engine block figuring out what the front grill should look like. These are not only different professions, but different kinds of professions.

    Keep your nose out of the design business, please. If you're a good programmer or admin guy, you don't know much about marketing and have lousy taste. Admitting it is the first step.

    --
    Get off my lawn.
    1. Re:In the auto industry... by gwait · · Score: 1

      Fascinating,

      In general I agree with the sentiment that one should hire a pro for a given task at hand.

      What I find interesting is how many people are determined to box people into hard categories: "If you're technical, there's NO WAY you could have any artistic talent!"

      It's not only an incorrect world view, it's also not logical. Of course, if someone were artistic but nontechnical, they wouldn't understand this simple logic..

      The original poster didn't ask how he could paint like Picasso in 6 easy lessons, he just was looking for some overall design guides.
      It may very well be that he has zero visual design talent (in which case he wouldn't even realize it) but without seeing his work it is illogical to assume so.

      --
      Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
    2. Re:In the auto industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please. So every engineer, programmer, or other technically minded person has no sense of aesthetics? Having technical abilities in no way precludes having artistic abilities. I myself try to develop both skillsets.

  54. Templates - the only answer by ItsIllak · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Don't even consider trying to design yourself - in addition to rules and standards, there is a 'leap' you have to make to get a good design. If you customise a website with content, templates are cheap as you can use a non-unique one and have a great look for very little money. My personal favourite is Template Monster - It's got great designs, the possibility to buy sites unique if teh customer wants it, and delivered in all sorts of formats (including HTML, layered PSD etc..)

  55. Creative is not a noun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone in the creative industry it pisses me off every time I hear a person being called a "creative". If the person you're working with is actually competent - you won't be cringing at large graphics and a crazy layout. You'll be looking at it and thinking, "Wow! That actually looks good and organizes the content in a meaningful way".

    1. Re:Creative is not a noun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a designer in the creative industry, I have no problem being called a 'creative'. In fact it's how we refer to ourselves and what separates us from the 'suits'. You're the first person I've ever heard of that had a problem with it.

      Good web design is when you can look at a site and not notice the design at all. It's simply effective and cohesive and requires no extra thought or deduction on the part of the visitor.

  56. get college kids by belligerent0001 · · Score: 0

    I am in a similar position as the poster and have been asked to do a couple of Websites for our various companies. My advice would be to go hit up the local community college or tech school, maybe even high schools, and see if you can get a student to do some pro-bono work for a resume bullet point and perhaps a letter of recommendation. Check with the instructors first, they will know who has the talent and who might be willing to work for free/little. You can also justify it to management by stating they have access to many more robust packages plus you are getting a fresher feel with better tech...etc. etc.

    --
    "...a civilian some of the time, a soldier part of the time and a patriot all of the time." -Brig. Gen. James Drain
  57. Look at sites that showcase good design... by foniksonik · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.unmatchedstyle.com/

    http://www.stylegala.com/

    http://www.thefwa.com/ http://www.csszengarden.com/

    http://www.styletheweb.com/

    These are all good directories of good web design you can get 'inspiration' from

    --
    A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  58. Book Recommendations by Selanit · · Score: 1

    You may find Th e Principles of Beautiful Web Design by Jason Beaird helpful. It's essentially a primer in basic graphic design intended for people exactly like you. Here's the paragraph from the introduction entitled "Who Should Read this Book?":

    If you are squeamish about choosing colors, feel uninspired by a blank browser window, or get lost trying to choose the right font, this book is for you. In it, I take a methodical approach to presenting traditional graphic design theory as it applies to today's web site development industry. While the content is directed towards programmers and developers, it provides a design primer that will benefit readers at any level.

    The table of contents in brief:

    1. Layout and Composition
    2. Color
    3. Texture
    4. Typography
    5. Imagery

    The text is reasonably friendly, and has lots of illustrations to demonstrate what the author discusses. It won't turn you into a graphic design guru, but it will probably help you figure out where to start. In general, a good book. My one real criticism is that in his discussion of legitimate sources of images, the author doesn't discuss public domain or the Creative Commons, only doing it yourself, royalty-free (but copyrighted) images, hiring professionals, and obtaining rights-managed images.

    Another good book, not specifically about web design but a mainstay of introductory design classes, is The Non-Designer's Design Book. In the second edition, it covered:

    1. Proximity
    2. Alignment
    3. Repetition
    4. Contrast
    5. Four chapters on typography

    Note that I have linked to the third edition, which is scheduled for release later this month and may cover slightly different things. I don't know how much or even if it's been updated.

    The same author puts out a book entitled "The Non-Designer's Web Book". I do not think that this book will be as helpful to you. It covers a lot of very basic material about building web sites (some basic HTML, acceptable image formats, and so on), and it sounds like you've already got that part of it.

    Hope this helps.

  59. Ease and speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ease and speed make for the best web sites.
    It's a tool. Customers use it to obtain info.
    It should be simple, consistent, easy to use, and fast.

  60. Here's a thought... by ethicalBob · · Score: 1

    How about hiring someone who knows how to properly create a good GUI design, like an experienced designer, or small design firm.

    A good designer will not only be able to provide you with the extra visual elegance you are looking for, but should be able to assist you in the three areas that are most important in delivery to the viewer - Design, Usability, and Information Architecture.

    Coders often think of design as being an afterthought, and "accessory" to the functionality of the site, but all of the elements are equally important.

    Use the analogy of a house:

    You are trying to sell or rent a home (get a user to want to use and stay on your website)

    And it has the best heating, cooling, efficient economical electricity, good light, and is made of the finest materials - in many ways it is superior to any other house on the block in these regards (this is your good code)

    No one is ever going to buy or rent it (visit it) if the doorknobs are 2 feet to high and the light-switches on the ceiling (Usability)

    Or if the bathroom has poor ventilation and is situated next to the dining room and living room, and also has a swimming pool in the kitchen. (Info Architecture)

    Or if the house has a combination of Grecian columns etched with daisies, windows of all different sizes, mis-matched shingles on the roof, and is painted pink and green. (Design)

    A good GUI (and user experience) is the result of working with someone who knows these disciplines, and create a site so the user can appreciate and use the good code and applications "behind the curtain". A good User Interface Designer will also know about 503 compliance, how to make interface run quickly and efficiently.

    But just like good code, good design will cost money (however, design usually costs only a fraction of the entire project) - this is definitely one of those "you get what you pay for" scenarios.

    You don't have to hire a full-time designer; you can get a good contractor to do this work for you.

    The note someone gave about finding a design student is bad advice - yes, they will likely work for cheap, but they will be less likely to know about usability and architecture issues, or have strong experience in these areas.

    Get yourself an experienced contractor to do the work.

    All too often good coders and good UX people don't appreciate the disciplines that the other group has to offer - but both are vital to the success of any website.

    --
    Politics will sooner or later make fools of everybody... - Dick Armey
  61. Greatest Design Tool Ever Invented by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

    The greatest design tool ever invented is: an 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper

    Bring you own pen or pencil.

    Don't worry about the technology, that comes second. Worry about what you want to user experience to be. The message. The structure.

    Define the business solution, THEN apply the technology.

  62. Get Frequent Feedback by Frightened_Turtle · · Score: 2, Informative

    Push back a little on your boss. Have him scratch out some rough sketches of what he thinks he wants to see. The problem with artistic endeavors is that everyone is a critic. If you put in the extra effort to try and come up with some nice artwork, only to find your boss doesn't like it, you will become bogged down and eventually burn out. You need your client —your boss —to give you some artistic direction on what he wants. By engaging him like this, he'll be a little more aware of the amount of effort it is going to take you — a confessed non-artist —to "pretty things up".

    Someone already beat me to suggesting CSS Zen Garden. That's a very inspirational site for anyone who wants to blend esthetically pleasing with advanced technically functional. Being familiar with HTML, SQL, and PHP, adding CSS to the quiver will open up a new level of creative possibilities. My favorite approach was adding subtle variations depending on the season or holiday —even local changes to the weather. I would have the PHP output a slight variation in the colors of certain elements with inline CSS, depending on certain conditions laid out in the rules table I created in MySQL.

    You can do some very effective decorative touches using just CSS and minimal graphics elements. If nothing else, it will certainly increase the speed at which your site loads. Eric Meyers offers some simple (and not so simple) examples of what you can accomplish with just CSS. His Complex Spiral demonstration is one of my favorites and was what really inspired me years ago to learn more about CSS.

    Definitely go to different web sites and look at the way they look and use that as inspiration for what you would like to accomplish. But as I stated in the opening, each revision, bring back to your boss and get his input. The more you involve him (her?), the more you are likely to end up with something that he wants, and the less work you will have to do.

    --


    Whew! This water sure is cold!
  63. Hiring vs. Learning by psiber · · Score: 1

    This choice is really up to you on how much time you have to spend on this. The website and book recommendations in the previous comments are great as is the recommendation of using a Content Management System (CMS) such as Joomla!, Drupal, etc. Another book I would recommend is Web Design and Marketing Solutions for Business Websites ISBN-13: 978-1-59059-839-9 and ISBN-10: 1-59059-839-3. This is a great book which talks about what needs to be in a business website, how to market it, 508 compliance, using CMS software and templates, and many other topics. BTW, don't buy the hype of "IT can't do graphics design and vice versa" as it is usually not true. However, these are not skills you can do well overnight. Just like any other profession, it takes time to get good then great at it.

    My end analysis would be to get a good CMS (most are 508 and standards compliant and allow the user to manage their own content and most of the good ones are free) with a good template (which you may or may not have to pay for as a lot of the free templates out there are very nice) or hire out the redesign (because that sounds like what your boss is asking for) to a web design company (keeping in mind that not all DESIGN companies are WEB DESIGN companies although more and more are coming around every day).

    Hope this helps.

  64. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  65. WTF? by OMNIpotusCOM · · Score: 1

    [start troll]

    When in the blue fuck did Slashdot become "I have some inane gripe where the answer is obvious and I want to try to turn nerds into trolls?" This article, the fuckin "Amazon ripped me off eventhough I have no proof and am out no money or time", "Can I do something with all this spare hard drive space", or the "Here, download this 15 gig bit-torrent of bullshit that someone clicked a radio button on MySpace to hide instead of being smart and just hiding" bullshit... it's nuts.

    I understand there are some basic themes here - RIAA sucks, Microsoft sucks, paying for stuff sucks, Bush sucks, Americans suck, Futurama is cool (but I won't buy anything to support it), Apple is imo (but still somehow irresistable), Linus isn't down for the fight anymore, etc... - but if this is a new trend and Slashdot is gonna turn into fuckin Dear Abby then gawd help us.

    [end troll]

  66. I second this by ArikTheRed · · Score: 1

    This was actually th book I was going to recommend. Like everyone else here I suggest hiring a graphic designer/usability expert/marketing person - but if you understand the basics of this book, it will at least help you thin the herd when hiring for look/feel.

  67. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by MrMarket · · Score: 5, Funny

    You want a Marketing Pro, who can deliver the rain, handling the "Vision", while you can concentrate on the implementation.

    Okay... who let in the PHB?
  68. Agree by simpl3x · · Score: 1

    Of course I agree, I'm a graphic designer! But, I think that the larger point is that perhaps a lot of sites don't need an incredible amount of design. Look at something Like 37 Signals, or even the Barack Obama site with respect to typography and not the graphics per se.

    MAybe what you need is a set of solutions that work, and a range of graphics that can fit the designs. As with the Mezza Blue site which others are touting, a lot of the detail work is what counts. Pay somebody to come up with an acceptable range, and if people want more distinction, let them know the costs.

    The hardest part about performing work for smaller clients, is the unprofessionalism, and the desire to get everything done for as close to nothing as possible. Running a business, which I do as well, requires that you improve your work, professionalism, and clients so that you can efficiently make more money. As a designer, in my mind this requires understanding when a project deserves something other than standard solutions. A surprising amount of work is very simple. But as with everything simplicity is the hardest task of all!

    Remember when web designers actually made money?

  69. Re:CSS Zen Garden - not good ouside of blogs by sjwest · · Score: 1

    Zen garden is good blog design. Some things transfer out but add ie support to your site and things dont always look so good in from the zen garden - that was my observation of two years ago of zen.

  70. Ed Tufte by mjtrac95570 · · Score: 1

    Anyone interested in presenting information on the web would benefit from picking up two classics by Ed Tufte: The Visual Display of Quantitative Information and Envisioning Information.

  71. Even good graphic designers aren't web designers by HeavyDevelopment · · Score: 1

    I've seen plenty of designers that were very competent in graphic design for print not be able to design a web site. UI design is something you learn over a series of years and not something you learn over night. On the flip side, I've seen very talented developers never master the art of user interface. They just lack the gene. Either you have the gift or you don't. You could go out and get a template, which is fine, but your site will look like a templated site. If you want to save yourself a lot of trouble, hire someone that knows what they are doing, and make sure they are a web designer and not a graphic designer.

    --
    Badges!?! We don't need no stinking badges!
  72. Try open source web designs by Ghandalfar · · Score: 1

    Open source web designs like http://www.oswd.org/ will allow you to build your site for "free" or at least give you usable contribution to work from.

  73. Be realistic. by Micar · · Score: 1

    If design is something that interests you and that you want to add to your bucket of skills, then get started. Fortunately, learning design is like learning your first programming language; once you learn that first language, the skills and techniques you learn can be transferred and implemented in many other languages. Good design skills and techniques can be applied to many many many other areas besides web sites. Gotta make a GUI for that crucial command line app? Why not do it using good design skills so that it makes sense to you - oh, and to the other poor saps that have to come along and inherit it after you move on. How you furnish your office, your home, what clothes you wear, even the meals you make - these things all have aspects of design in them.

    As the Man With Many Hats at my small company, the boss asked me to do this too. In my case, my boss had a general idea what he wanted to do -- 'spruce up the site' -- but didn't really have any idea what that meant. The first thing I did was sit down and talk about it with him. I needed to figure out what his overall goals for the site were (keep the same content, just make the design prettier, make it easier to more frequently update, etc) before recommending anything. I really can't overemphasize how important it is to communicate. Hopefully along the way you can impart some of your knowledge about what the (re)design would entail - in non-technical, broad terms, of course.

    This information will come in handy whether you end up doing it in-house or getting a pro to do it. Once you know what has to be done, you can give your boss the scoop. If he's a good businessman, he'll listen.

    "Hey, Boss, it sounds like the goals you established will require a large investment in man hours. I'd be happy to do it. However, it sounds like it might make be more efficient to have the design done professionally so that we can be sure the goals are met."

    But be sure to tell him that in order to get in touch with the much weaker hippie artistic side of your brain, you're going to need some extra supplies.

    1) Smoke a few bowls.
    2) Litter the corporate site with <blink> tags.
    3) ??????
    4) PROFIT!
  74. CSSZEN GARDEN by shareme · · Score: 0

    he cannot go wrong by reading and trying the CSS Zen Garden examples..google for the website url..

    --
    Fred Grott(aka shareme) http://mobilebytes.wordpress.com
  75. Um...no by LinDVD · · Score: 1

    Starbucks has ARTISTS and DESIGNERS as far as THEY are concerned. The ARTISTS-who do not write code at all, but create the visual layout for Starbuck's music page. Then, they hand off their work to two DESIGNERS who translate the ideas of the ARTISTS into Actionscript 3 code. The DESIGNERS work with the ARTISTS to make sure the initial vision of what the ARTISTS are looking for remains as close to their original ideas as possible. Then, for the "heavy lifting" (databases), one dedicated programmer handles all back end logic.

    If you don't like Starbuck's terms, I'd suggest you take it up with them up in Seattle, where these guys work. They consider their "senior web developers" as DESIGNERS and the web developers refer to themselves as designers and make a clear distinction between how the roles are split.

    --
    Just because you get modded "insightful" on Slashdot doesn't mean you actually are in real life.
    1. Re:Um...no by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I'd break it down more like:

      Artists-- Create art for placement (not layout): Photographers, illustrators, etc.
      Designers-- Strategize and develop layouts, placing and utilizing the artists work.
      Developers-- Implement layout guidelines from designers in code. Solve problems of implementation.

      If Starbucks doesn't have dedicated or uniquely-defined staff filling the "Artists" role (above), I suppose I could see how they'd bump the roles up one.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
  76. You are a philistine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    > Please note: Code is *not* poetry,

    Then poetry cannot exist at all! Is the following example not a beautiful and elegant usage of language?

    sub ouroboros { shift->(@_) }
    ouroboros sub { shift->(@_) }
  77. Re:CSS Zen Garden - not good ouside of blogs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What are you talking about? The site shows how keeping the same HTML and just varying the CSS can produce vastly different designs. This is applicable to any site, not just blogs. If you see something you like, look at the CSS and see how that sort of things is achieved.

    I really don't understand why you think this is just applicable to blogs.

  78. find a site you like and copy it by snsh · · Score: 0

    I've found the worst about IT for small business is web development. It ends up being the most frustrating, unproductive thing. First of all, I always end up with business owners who have too many opinions. They don't care about the rest of IT as long as it works. But they care a lot whether the footer on the homepage has a 2px border or a 1px border. That kind of micromanagement gets demoralizing fast.

    And the same business owner who says they want better website design, really needs better website content first. Design is fun with a lot of content available. With no content or pictures, design is almost impossible.

    And then I end up with graphic designers who tell us "sure, I can do HTML/CSS" but really can't. They are competent users of Photoshop and Dreamweaver, and can create a decent mockup, but then deliver webpages containing lousy markup, with text replaced by images that's basically invisible to search engines. (I guess if they understood HTML better, they'd call themselves web developers not designers.) A geek can use that as a starting point and create well-formed markup, but that's not usually what's planned.

    So now what I do is tell small business owners to just find another random website they like, and then import that template, and customize it from there.

  79. Find out what the boss really wants first by zeychez117 · · Score: 1
    All the other comments of "consult someone else" are very good.

    Before you do that, ask your boss to give examples of websites that have elements of design s/he is thinking of. "Punched-up" is WAY too open to interpretation. For all you know your boss could have seen one website that has some 'really cool' Flash / mash-up thing, and thinks that what YOUR website needs.

  80. I'm one of the rare few that is good at both by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    I'm one of the fortunate rare few that is good at both, programming *and* design. And I can asure you that either - when done professionally - is extremely hard work until you get a routine.
    Since you are the Geek type that even *admits* he's bad at designing and you've got a full time job already doing all the stuff you mentioned, let me give you one advice for this particular situation you've just described: Stear clear of any design work what-so-ever. Don't even try to do it - you most certainly *will* fail miserably. You've basically got two options: Get a professional (!!!) designer to pimp your site (Any one of these will do just fine: http://www.csszengarden.com/ ) or get yourself a template *or* a web-professional who's got a template subscription with a good template foundry.

    Don't get me wrong: Learning good webdesign is possible for anyone. But you will have to learn two things: Design *and* Webdesign. The former being what programmers often neglect as simply "drawing cute little colorfull mockups and layouts in Photoshop" (way harder that many imagine) and the latter transferring said mockups into compliant CSS based web document frames and scaffolds while maintaing the overall look and feel on various OSes and browsers. I'd say both together take about 800 hrs. to learn for somebody who is proficient in operating computers and has a ood suply of O'reilly's at hand, but hasn't done any of those thouroughly. You can start now, but I wouldn't expect to get up to speed before a year has passed and you've had you designs scrutinized a few times by the people at cssbeauty or cssvault. So once again: Hand the design stuff over to someone else or buy a template. Then integrating that into a functional website and optimised pageflow is work enough for one guy.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  81. Re:Get someone else, but also start learning by MrMarket · · Score: 1

    Getting a designer to consult on your site is important, but you will also need to effectively communicate with each other. If you want to start learning about design, I'd add some of the sites from the deck to your rss reader. I find A List Apart provides a good mix of posts about both front-end and back-end design. Typography is also important, so I'd subscribe to some of the foundry blogs, or typography blogs. After reading these for a while you'll gain an understanding of how designers approach problems.

  82. Watch your colors by SlappyBastard · · Score: 1

    Colors come with a lot of meanings we geeks aren't wired to grasp. It's why corporate websites all look alike. There is a sort of detente with color meanings among the corps. Basically, you're blue and white or red and white, and some shades of gray and a few spot colors tossed in for good measure. Companies want to avoid conveying meanings.

    --
    I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
  83. I got the answer for you by jason777 · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty much like you, but I do have great Photoshop skills. The problem is, I cant design graphics. I can make them if I start with someone else's design. That why I was thrilled to find sites like BoxedArt (http://www.boxedart.com/) where you can download pre-made PSD files (which means you can edit them). Change the colors to your company colors and youre done. They even sell distinct designs that only 1 person can buy, but obviously you pay more for those layouts.

  84. I agree. I agree every time someone asks by CFD339 · · Score: 1


    This question seems to go around on /. every few months, and the first thing I do is search for the name of this book (which is always already suggested) and add my 2 cents.

    This is a very easy read but packed full of solid advice, real world examples, and common geek-traps to avoid. It has helped me a great deal.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  85. I wouldn't suggest CSS Zen Garden here by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative

    The CSS Zen Garden is a great place to get some ideas.

    I respectfully disagree. CSS Zen Garden is a fascinating showcase of what is possible, but it's perhaps also a perfect example of "just because we can do something, that doesn't mean we should do it". The person asking this question is talking about a small business web site, not a personal blog-for-fun. Many of the tricks used in CSS Zen Garden entries, clever and attractive as they may be, are exactly the sort of thing you don't want in a usable, accessible, search-engine-friendly web site for a professional organisation.

    You can't just learn good design overnight, and good taste certainly plays its part in producing an effective web site. However, there are some big ways to go wrong, and if you can just avoid those then you'll probably already have a better web site than a lot of your competitors. If the asker wants to learn a bit about graphic design, the good news is there are plenty of web sites that do teach the basic principles.

    If you like to browse the web and find your own ideas and patterns, you could start by searching for some common topics like:

    • balance
    • alignment
    • contrast
    • white space
    • optical centre
    • typography
    • colour theory

    There's no one authoritative set, but you'll find the same themes come up time and again. Most of these will hopefully seem like they're just common sense once you've read them, too, though of course you might not have thought of them until they were pointed out.

    If you prefer a more structured approach, you'll probably do fine just searching for "graphic design principles", reading a few of the all-in-one tutorials, and then following some links for more detailed information on the key topics you find mentioned repeatedly.

    I would recommend looking up some basic material on usability as well. The prettiest design in the world isn't going to help visitors to find the information they want and/or to make purchases if your information architecture and site navigation are poor. I'd also suggest reading up on the basics of search engine optimisation, because prettifying your site in a way that makes it harder for search engines to scan will cost you presumably valuable page hits. These sorts of issues are why CSS Zen Garden is exactly the wrong place to look for inspiration if you're trying to make an effective web site, even though it's a great place to look if you just want to make a pretty web site.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:I wouldn't suggest CSS Zen Garden here by schon · · Score: 1

      Many of the tricks used in CSS Zen Garden entries, clever and attractive as they may be, are exactly the sort of thing you don't want in a usable, accessible, search-engine-friendly web site Usable and accessible are debatable, but name one search engine that parses CSS and uses it to judge content.
    2. Re:I wouldn't suggest CSS Zen Garden here by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      ...name one search engine that parses CSS and uses it to judge content.

      It's not parsing the CSS that's the problem; it's things like using images for headings to work around the typographic limitations on the web and the structure mandated by CSS Zen Garden.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  86. Accessibility et al. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Requirement: It's also important that it conform to ADA accessibility guidelines. In particular, I'm looking for books or tutorial websites that teach the basics of good graphic design -- how to make it more appealing without losing the ability to communicate effectively.

    The http://www.gc.ca/Government of Canada (GoC) has developed a comprehensive set of http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/clf2-nsi2/index-eng.aspguidelines for its web sites which might be of interest to you in light of Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

    As for graphic content you are best served by hiring a professional with experience communicating in a visual, non-text, medium.

  87. Design Examples, Test, Who's The Decider? by ngr8 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Good sources for design by example:

    http://www.edwardtufte.com/
    how to present quantitative information and get to the essence: less is more.

    http://www.garrreynolds.com/
    many examples on messages and negative space

    http://www.websitesthatsuck.com/
    intelligent checklists of what to do and stunningly great what not to do examples. Excellent walk through for "the boss" who might really, really, want to have that musical gif with the dog playing the banjo on the first page along side the waving flag/support our troops light show...

    Test: Consider too how customers, et.al.,will access the site.

    Make the dog food, eat the dog food. If the users are coming through a network jinking like a moth in flight from a bat, that big ass wonderful "thing" may well and truly blow chunks. Demo on the LAN, or on the desktop: bad thing. What's the implementation environment?

    If users are urban with high capacity networks, fatter images etc. can be less of a problem. But if you're trying to reach, say, people "on the road" or in dial up land, test with their environments. I recall one rule of thumb that suggested that 4 seconds is about the design budget for the first page to show up.

    In turn, consider also testing with at least a couple of current and backlevel browsers to catch major pains.

    Go for basic function/message first. Avoid the scripting etc. until the site is stabilized and (most)people smile.

    Is it to support the operations of your business as well as communicate to your customers and partners? The ops/innards pieces, to me at least, are very different in terms of look, function, and feel. Separate these requirements from the messaging; creeping functionality kills.

    Who Is The Decider?

    Who is writing content? Who is editing content?

    Frame up a few questions such as "who should we look like vis a vis competition, which customers and prospects are of interest, what's our brand, etc." If you get a glazed look go for the neat gif mailboxes and spinning blinkenlights and declare a victory. If the idea of integrated messaging and corporate (organizational) image are not big in the culture, well shucks, I'd go for beige on beige.

    --
    Verizon: Latin for "poor rural service".
  88. A useful book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While I agree with some of the other posters when they tell you to hire a professional I would also like to recommend this book. Unlike many books which show you how to be oh so trendy the focus here is how to maximise usability, readability etx. through the application of fundamental principles.

  89. You don't need a graphic designer... by slim · · Score: 3, Informative

    ... you need a web design geek.

    A graphic designer knows all about fonts and colour and layout, and could design you a beautiful logo, or ad, or book layout. But they won't know about usability, accessibility, browser independence, standards compliance, performance. This is how people end up with sites where every page is an image (or worse, a chopped up image, reassembled in a table).

    A typical IT geek knows about code and protocols, probably knows a well designed web site when he sees one, but often doesn't have the inclination to design something new and visually beautiful. I used to be pretty good at art and design at school, but now I class myself in this group -- if I pick two colours for a page, they'll either look hideous together, or conventional and dull.

    WHEREAS - a Web design geek doesn't necessarily understand the subtleties of protocols, nor necessarily have the best programming skills. But they'll know HTML and CSS inside out, and they'll have a passion for all those important webby things the graphic designer would neglect. They'll be full of attractive layout ideas, but will stay within the bounds of what CSS can do efficiently.

    You can still be involved. If there's dynamic content, you pick the CMS, you code up any new logic that's needed (learned RoR yet? Now's an opportunity!). Work with your Web design geek to agree on div classes they can write their CSS around.

    1. Re:You don't need a graphic designer... by Elbow+Macaroni · · Score: 1

      Yeah get a graphic designer. Make one logo. Use that on every page. Just like Google does. People always tell me they want all this flash and programming and blah blah blah....but look who's really making money? Google. They don't use tons of flash or splash pages or all that nonsense.

      --
      -------------------------------------
      Technically, we are beyond survival.
  90. Webpages aren't (usually) artwork. by fireboy1919 · · Score: 4, Interesting


    There is nothing about being a "geek" or knowing HTML, CSS, or javascript that magically grants someone designer chops.


    And there's one other *extremely important* fact that I've learned: there's nothing that being a graphic designer learns that magically grants them webpage design chops.

    If the web was run by graphics designers, all the pages would be extremely pretty. Most would be stored as individual flash files, but some of the less important text would just be as represented as images. No text would actually be stored as text, and each page would contain roughly a sentence or two worth of actual text. To find anything meaningful would require somewhere in the neighborhood of eight clicks.

      In other words, they can make the web fluffy. Today, the place of the graphic artist is starting to be more and more just devoted to logos, banners, and advertisements - like they were before the web (mostly because the web used to be just those things for a lot of companies, and is now becoming a lot more than that). The usability people are taking up the task of writing pages, and those people are very much geeks. They're the ones who make new kinds of widgets that work the way that they do for desktop apps - with things like autocomplete, AJAX, unified designs, usage of CSS, etc, standard layout and standard widget usage. These are pretty much always two different groups. Usability people fight to make things look and work naturally, while graphic artists fight to make their pages stand out and work different from everyone else's. So you aren't likely to be both.

    So if I were in your position (and I actually am in my company), I'd focus on cognitive science usability studies and take my ideas of how to make things nicer from that. People who actually try to get information out of your site will appreciate it...whereas they mostly won't care much what it looks like for more than the first three seconds or so (for most companies, anyway. If you happen to sell something that's main feature is it's prettiness, then you might consider making a pretty site more important than one that you can find out about your business from).

    --
    Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    1. Re:Webpages aren't (usually) artwork. by michaelknauf · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is that you aren't differentiating good graphic designers from bad... a lousy programmer makes code that just doesn't work, a lousy graphic designer does the same... a good graphic designer makes a visual layout that works, ie does what you want it to do, in much the same way a good programmer makes something that effectively does what it's supposed to do. The problem is, it's easier to identify a bad coder -- the application does not work -- than a bad designer. A decent designer who works with the web will have studied usability. Two sources if you do want to learn design: http://webpagesthatsuck.com/ an oldie but a goodie, I find it's often easier for students to identify bad than good, and you can learn alot from the mistakes of others. http://www.bamagazine.com/ Before and After magazine... gets a little technical, but talks about the science of design

  91. End-User Expectations by wilkinism · · Score: 1

    Ultimately, good design is about communication. Webpages communicate a message to the end-user, and provide 'links' to more detailed information related to that message. In order to communicate effectively, you must put yourself in the role of the end-user and anticipate their expectations. In today's high-bandwidth society, end-users expect to recieve the information they are looking for clearly and with as few steps as possible. That's why the second rennaissance of web design (Web 2.0) has been largely about simplicity. Some common elements of Web 2.0 design include: navigation that is shallow & promintently laid out, clean & streamlined graphics (rounded corners, gradients, glass textures), top-level site search, and bold & clear headers.

    Back to my point about communication, the role of graphics on a webpage has changed from being merely decorative to playing an essential part in the navigation. You should be able to glance at a webpage and break down a complete heirarchy of importance without reading any of the text. The reason for this is that your end-users will not take the time to read text, they will look at what catches their eye and expect that piece to provide the information they want. The longer it takes to receive and understand the information they are looking for, the less likely they will be to visit your site in the future.

    As a general resource for multi-role web professionals like you and I, I highly recommend alistapart.com. It's an online publication authored by well-respected names in the web industry that addresses topics ranging from abstract design and user interactivity, to code solutions, and business strategy. They thoughtfully break down modern challenges facing web professionals and provide clear explainations and solutions.

    --
    -Bryan
  92. No no! It's no that by Walter+Carver · · Score: 1

    That's not a valid argument. To take it to an extreme, you'd never let a chef do brain surgery on you, but you might let a brain surgeon cook you a meal with some help from a cookbook. Just because one profession has little chance of succeeding in another, the opposite does not have to be true. No, it's not that going from profession A to profession B is more successding than going from B to A. It's the immediate risk involved.

    Surgery can be fatal for the patient but with bad cooking it's not a big deal (jokes aside :-P). So although an IT guy doing a bad web-design could cause no hard to the IT infrastructure, a clueless art designer could wreck havoc to the business if left to take care of IT issues.

    But a badly designed website can be bad for business in the longterm because people like to see beautiful things. Just like if the surgeon tried to make a living out of cooking meals would not be good in the longterm.
    1. Re:No no! It's no that by mieses · · Score: 1

      cultural expression can have life/death implications just like any engineering task. culture is what we live for. it's why the infrastructure is there.

  93. IT and Software Engineering for Small Business by sfled · · Score: 1

    "I'm a competent graphic designer running a one-man-show for a small business. I do everything involving graphic design in this company; Art direction, magazine ads, flyers, mailers, desktop publishing, managing photographers and models, Point of Sale signage, inventory stickers, and the company website. My boss has asked me to 'punch up' the in-house accounting system and inventory management software, and to integrate it with the web site. I also need to get up to speed on building a seure web server on which to host this thing. Although I can hold my own with HTML, PHP and a couple SQL products, software development isn't one of my strengths.

    I'm looking for some advice on how to improve the software without totally screwing the thing up. It's also important that it conform to GAAP and commonly accepted inventory management guidelines, and that it be secure. In particular, I'm looking for books or tutorial websites that teach the basics of good software design & development as well as the ins and outs of accounting and inventory. Also, I would appreciate suggestions for tools to use to make this more efficient (Windows and Linux are both OK)."

    --
    I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.
  94. Try Blueprint by jaaron · · Score: 3, Informative

    My first recommendation would be to try Blueprint -- a set of reasonable CSS styles that make building grid-based layouts much easier. It's open source, designed by some great people and actively supported.

    If you're looking for full designs, try Open Source Web Designs. There are also other free template sites out there, so search around.

    --
    Who said Freedom was Fair?
  95. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by symbolic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'd advise extra care if using this approach. Marketing people are not usability experts, and users do NOT want to be sucker-punched with marketing drivel every time they visit your site. You may get their attention the first time with a slick home page, but if the implementation makes it too cumbersome to actually use the site, you can bet they'll probably never come back. It's too easy to go somewhere else.

  96. Re:CSS Zen Garden - not good ouside of blogs by sjwest · · Score: 1

    If already you do html and css and the rest when called to - then all zen garden is css and divs boiling it down. A blog usually displays 10 articles - fast to load. OK so it looks good in FF 2.0, now lets see what it looks like in ie 6 - oh no 'train crash'.

    Start adding 'support' for the winbloze ie crap. Check in FF and Opera and you might feel too that blog design is what zen gardens best option. If however you don't accommodate ie (we are considering dropping support for it) then ok no problems. zen garden does showcase css but they do rather look like blog templates and yes wordpress.org is cool but zen garden feels very stereotyped for the the blogger who runs something other than ie.

  97. you're too good for your boss by coteesh · · Score: 1

    It's not very hard to start your own company. You should ditch this boss that's taking advantage of you, and start your own company, you have the skills for it!

  98. Copy copy copy by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Just ask your boss to select looks he likes from *other* websites, and then copy and meld the top picks. You don't have to copy exactly, but it can give you a good starting point.

  99. Web 2.0 Design? Easy.. by daaku · · Score: 1

    Add rounded corners, drop shadows, glassy reflections and gradients everywhere - and you're done!


    Seriously,

    Tons of good gallery sites, visit them. Use Adobe's Kuler. Finally, read this basic book: The Non-Designer's Design Book by Robin Williams.

    And like someone else said - a boring site is better than an ugly one. So don't try to be a hero.

  100. Another book recommendation by bookofthedoomed · · Score: 1

    Check out "The non-designers design book" by Robin Williams (no, not that Robin Williams - a different Robin Williams.) Exactly what it advertises, it gives you a basic working vocabulary for the core principles of graphic design in a geek-friendly, non-fluff manner. For people with procedural rather than intuitive minds, it shows you how to apply rules and algorithms to achieve that elusive "it just looks right" look.

  101. You can do it--copy & keep it simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a professional who has worked in this field for a long time. I'm well-known and I've won many, many awards. I know I should be urging you to pay top dollar for an outside agency, but since you may not have the budget--and since I'm posting anonymously--I'll let you in on a secret: It's entirely possible for a non-designer to do effective work.

    The keys are to copy what good designers do, and keep your site absolutely as simple as possible.

    In particular, if you're a beginner I'd advise:

    1. Don't even try to make your site look beautiful. Forget about it. Just make it simple and easy to use--and it will end up good-looking. I realize this piece of advice has an annoying "zen and the art of archery" feel to it, but it's absolutely true. If you want an attractive site, don't even think about attractiveness.

    2. Never choose colors yourself. Take them from somewhere else. Does your company have a professionally designed brochure? Great, take them from that. Does your logo have colors? There's your palette. Nothing to work off of? Copy the colors--every hex digit--from a simple site you like.

    3. Make your HTML/CSS as short as possible. Brevity in code is a *great* way for a "geek" to end up with a good design. The hallmark of bad design is too many different things jumbled together. If you force yourself to use the absolute bare minimum number of styles etc., you're already ahead of the game.

    4. Whenever things (fonts, colors, positions, etc.) are different on a web page, ask yourself: is it *essential* that those things be different? If the answer is no, make them the same. If yes, make them even more different than you first had them.

    5. Watch other people use your site. Then fix the problems. Then watch them use it again. Repeat many, many times.

    If you follow these rules and are ruthless about simplifying, you'll already be in the top 20% of web sites.

    Good luck!

  102. Some Books for Beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    If you're serious about trying your own graphic design, a few books of merit:
    1. The Non-designers Design Book (and similar books by Robin Williams on Web Design and Typography).
    2. 101 Things I learned in Architectural School
    A bit more on the esoteric side, but might help get you into the right mindset (like 'The Little Schemer' helps you guild the right mindset for functional programming), is "Thinking With Type". Realize that this will take some work. Your biggest struggle will probably be getting people to tell you WHY your initial designs are bad. That means you should seek feedback early, and often (from anybody you can get it from).
  103. No books, no templates, definitely no clipart. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    Just as there are a ton of pseudo hackers (those who say they can program but can't), graphics is not much different. Just like it takes a good programmer to find a good programmer, it takes a good designer to spot a good designer. You are, admittedly, not a good designer, so assume you are degner-blind. Fortunately, you have a workaround in your situation because you are working for a client. Have your client pick out the designer or tell you what designs they like.

    You need three sets of bookmarks. The first set should include all of the sites of potential design firms or freelancers you can hire. You probably want somebody local, who can visit your office in person. If they don't have a web site and an online portfolio, DO NOT HIRE THEM. The second list should include all of the pretty big corporate web sites. This could include sun.com, apple.com, microsoft.com... not because of their products, but because we know they spent a lof of money and got their site done by a high profile web publishing firm. The third set of bookmarks should include all of your rival companies in your industry. Your primary goal is to look better than them.

    Go through all of these sites with your client/boss, and have them pick out what they like and dislike. At the end, the problem should boil down to you asking your potential web designer "can you create a web site like [insert clients favorite site] and make it do [function requirements here] and include everything that I put [link to all content or current site] for under [budget]".

    To make the process easier for the designer, you should have all of the content ready beforehand, and have an extensive list of example sites that represent what you want and don't want.

    Also, although this sounds cruel, be harsh when critiquing the design work. It is also wise to send them back to the drawing board once or twice even if you do like their first product. If their first version was better, you can always decide on it later. But it is always good to push your designers to their creative limits, as they will come back with something better more times than not.

    Good luck.

  104. Accessibility; writing by dilger · · Score: 1

    1) The Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) has little or nothing to do with web accessibility. (It may, pending the results of NFB v Target. But not now.) You need to check out the requirements in Section 508 if you'll be working with/for federal agencies. You need to read up on the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG), including Joe Clark's criticism of them. I suggest starting with WebAIM and Mark Pilgrim's excellent (though dated) Dive Into Accessibility.

    2) Hire a good writer and a good photographer, or an agency which has 'em. Content is king. "Punching up" the design doesn't mean a thing without that foundation.

  105. Easy answer by billcopc · · Score: 1

    You're spreading yourself too thin. If you're not a designer, don't try to be one, you have more important things to deal with. Get your boss to hire a design firm - if they don't think it's worth the money, then it certainly isn't worth your time.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  106. Editing by Design... by JumpingBull · · Score: 1

    A nice summary on the fusion of (written) editorial content and it's (graphical) presentation, by Jan Victor White.

    Recommended.

    The flow goes like this:

    • What does the website *do* for customers? Why?
    • How do we make it easy for people to find stuff?
    • Can we make the visuals simple, and navigation clean?
    • Have we avoided clutter? Either visual or cognitive?
    • Is it readable? Does it pass muster at a Flesch "plain english" level?

    The only warning is that "punch it up" may translate into a punch-drunk design. By asking polite n pesky questions of the owner/boss you can reduce the horror. The KISS principle may well be your friend...

    I hope.

    --
    This is progress?
  107. You know... artsy geeks DO exist by mstahl · · Score: 1

    I'm one of them. I'm more of a master of computer science than I am graphic design, but I do both professionally. The designers I've worked with who had the most talent were evenly split male to female, with by far the best being male. Unlike IT, the design world has been pretty well co-ed for a really long time now.

    As for the original poster's lament. Totally get someone professional to make mockups for you. It's incredibly risky to get the same person to do the HTML as did the design. Sometimes it can turn out okay (again, I do both), but I'd say 90% of the time you shouldn't even let the designer see the code.

    Regarding accessibility, the most important thing is to ALT tag images that add meaning. That last phrase seriously cannot be overstated. Don't add an alt tag to an icon of a globe or something because the alt tags are there for blind people, and they use programs to read the web page to them. So, using a screen reader it'll come out something like "Lorem ipsum dolor sit globe amet" and sound really dumb. Also, if you want the page to be accessible, DON'T USE FLASH. Seriously. Flash is absurdly hard to make accessible. It can be done but not easily.

    Sorry only a little bit of that related to the parent post but you know. Better to get it all out in one shot than write a bazillion comments when I'm pressed for time.

    1. Re:You know... artsy geeks DO exist by aevans · · Score: 1

      Unless you're selling braille birthday cards or work on site mandating government accessibility rules, you can pretty safely ignore doing the anything that caters to the blind population. If you have compelling content, the majority that use screen readers will endure the occasional "picture of blank" at the start of each paragraph. Or they'll have someone else read it for them. If you are selling braille birthday cards online, good luck to you, but I wouldn't pay too much for a sock puppet commercial.

    2. Re:You know... artsy geeks DO exist by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      I'm one of them. I'm more of a master of computer science than I am graphic design, but I do both professionally. The designers I've worked with who had the most talent were evenly split male to female, with by far the best being male. Unlike IT, the design world has been pretty well co-ed for a really long time now.

      I'm coming from a computer science background, well really my major was Computer Engineering before I had an accident. But now I'm hoping to break into photography, I started with photography at the sane tyme I did with computers, and I'm wondering how well the principles of photography translate into web design. Such as the Rule of Thirds. I know it can be used generically, with the most important stuff on the top of the page and navigation or blurbs going down the left or right side. Otherwise I'm not sure such as with lines and curves.

      Falcon
    3. Re:You know... artsy geeks DO exist by FLEB · · Score: 1

      As I saw mentioned somewhere, though (forget the reference): There's a large and influential population of disabled web viewers out there-- search spiders. Although some accessibility measures might be overkill, a lot of accessibility features also serve the purpose of making the site search-friendly and usable across a wide range of agents. Side-effects also include cleaner and more logical code, and a "best practices" mentality that makes for better websites.

      I suppose I would agree that accessibility isn't primary (or even achievable) for all websites and situations, but keeping it in mind as a goal does little but help.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    4. Re:You know... artsy geeks DO exist by FLEB · · Score: 1

      From my experience, those sorts of rules are the "quick 'n' dirty" distillations of composition theory-- they're memorable guidelines that are quick enough to remember while still being able to rapidly compose a scene.

      I would say that the finer-grained rules of design and visual composition inherent in a layout or web page translate themselves better to photography than the other way around.

      With the time and control involved in design (both in being able to and in needing to control every element in the composition), the general rules of thirds, eyepaths, etc., while they hold on their own, gain complexity as things like interactive usage patterns and type selection and spacing gain a larger role.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    5. Re:You know... artsy geeks DO exist by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Oh, and qualifications for the record: I'm a professional web/graphic designer, and an amateur (hack, but working on it) photographer.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
  108. bang for your buck by cornellfOo · · Score: 1

    In your case I'd suggest getting a graphic designer to give you a simple design framework for your site. Just the basic layout of a couple of main page types then building it yourself using the same framework.

  109. K.I.S.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    My web design advise for coders:

    • Pick a font. 1 font. Verdana and Georgia are nearly ubiquitous. When in doubt, helvetica.
    • Use the header and paragraph tags.
    • Adobe has a great site where designers share color schemes. Pick one you like from there. http://kuler.adobe.com/
    • cross your eyes just enough so your page is blurry. If you get the feeling that if it was a picture on your wall you would want to straighten it, adjust the look until you don't.
    • Make sure navigation is usable in the absence of CSS, Javascript and flash.
    • Keep in mind that most humans can only keep track of 5-9 things at a time. Try to keep navigation options, sections and content bits within or below that range on a given page.
    • Don't be afraid of blank space.
    • on a lightness scale of 1 to 10, keeping text and backgrounds 5 values apart makes reading easy.
    • Try to have at least 2 ways to get around the site... like a primary nav might also be accompanied by a footer nav and search.
    • Keep it simple. Clutter is ugly.
    • All you need is a text editor, an image editor, s/ftp client and a browser. You'll have to learn whatever spiffy web page program you'd buy, why not learn to hand code instead? It's cheaper and better.
  110. Think to hire. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    Hiring a professional is cheaper and faster than becoming a professional yourself.

    Imagine this problem was the other way around: A graphics person needs to code a web site and build applications. As a programmer, can you seriously recommend any "PHP in 24 hours" or "C++ for dummies" books? Would you refer them to any sites with a ton of code snippets to copy and paste? For fun, sure. But if you need the job done, and done professionally, they would have to hire a programmer, no doubt about it. As a programmer you know how much hard work went into obtaining your skills and it is the same for graphics. And just as programmers have their expensive tools, so do graphic designers. When you hire someone with those tools, you avoid paying for them yourself.

  111. Web Designer by BlatOdea · · Score: 1

    I agree with most of the comments here. One can be taught the techniques of artistic design, but unless you're already artistically inclined, It's going to take some time to get acquainted with the ideas. I'm a small-time web-designer, working mostly in Gimp and Inkscape (open source graphics programs). In contrast, I started out as an artist and got interested in web work; in hindsight, a transition that I'm thankful for. BlatOdea.com is my art gallery, but it also has some info on my web-design work. Feel free to drop me a line.

    --
    Why, if not because?
  112. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Funny

    It wasn't a PHB, it was a Marketing Pro®... :-)

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  113. Buy Good Icons by coldtone · · Score: 1

    A great icon set can really punch up a product. Check these out http://www.iconshock.com/.

    I've tried to use free ones, but they just don't have the same quality.

  114. Most insightful comment I've seen so far by snowwrestler · · Score: 1

    I oversee Web development for a living and graphic design is always where the discussion starts when management wants to improve a site. That does not mean that graphic design is the actual problem with the Web site though. I earn my money by asking questions and leading a discussion that gets to the heart of the real problems.

    Graphic design is a wash on the information layout of the site. It is important for making your site look professional and easy on the eyes. But it cannot fix any underlying problems with how the site is organized or the information laid out on a page. Have a good discussion/think about what your company does and wants to accomplish with the site, then take a look and see whether the page layout, navigation, etc emphasize the right things. It's amazing how often people want to change the colors and add more pictures, then it turns out that the one thing they want their site to do isn't prominent in the nav or is barely keyworded (a ton of site traffic comes from search engines these days).

    Have a look at this:

    http://www.jjg.net/elements/pdf/elements.pdf

    Note that graphic design is the top and final step--the polish. If you've built a crappy car (analogy), then no amount of polish is going to make it work. If you're interested in site design, I highly recommend the book by the same name:

    http://www.jjg.net/elements/

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Most insightful comment I've seen so far by kylben · · Score: 1

      Graphic design is a wash on the information layout of the site.

      I see what you're saying, and you're basically right, but there's an aspect where it's not entirely true. Think about the information that would be conveyed by, say, a hot pink color scheme as opposed to one in earth tones. That's an extreme example, but the point is that there is information conveyed in the graphics about values, attitudes, connotation, and emphasis, etc. That's what I meant about there being a vocabulary.

      It's a different kind of information being conveyed. I think of it as analogous to the facial expressions and body language that accompany speaking. And if the common wisdom is correct, that stuff accounts for more than half of the actual information conveyed in a conversation.

      I'm not a graphic designer, but I play one on TV. Actually, my girlfriend is the designer, and I'm the analytical geek that she always asks to help her critique and polish her stuff, so I've picked up some basic premises in trying to explain to her things like why I think that little doohicky in the corner needs to be 3 pixels smaller, stuff like that.

      And thanks for the props in your title.

      --
      Insightful and funny are really the same thing, except one has a punch line.
  115. CMS by TurinPT · · Score: 1

    There are loads of open source CMS that come with various themes for you to choose, all you need is to add content.
    My personal favorite is drupal.

  116. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by caffeinemessiah · · Score: 4, Informative
    Geek 1:

    I'm a good geek of all arts. But when I try to dabble in graphical design, I always fail spectacularly. Get someone with actual talent to do it.

    Geek 2:

    You want a Marketing Pro, who can deliver the rain, handling the "Vision", while you can concentrate on the implementation

    And they're both absolutely right. I would suggest starting with a free template and modifying the CSS / graphics. That saves you the initial legwork of choosing a design layout, colors, etc. Here are some sites with some really awesome templates and liberal licensing (CC for most I think): Free CSS Templates.org and Open source web design.

    --
    An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
  117. web design is advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really really think about getting help. If you aren't a graphically designed type of person, this isn't something you simply read about. I know plenty of great coders who can't design. I also know a ton of great designers who can't make a simple website. There are reasons why there are people and firms that handle this. My best idea is if your boss doesn't understand that the website is actually a form of advertising, then go grab a generic template somewhere. However, realize that it is just a template in the end and won't set you apart in the end.

  118. Contract a web designer. by diskofish · · Score: 1

    You and the company management should farm out the design to a web designer - they do this ALL the time and it's relatively cheap. Once you get the design from the designer, you slice it up and make it a site. I used to try to design sites myself. I realized when I use a designer, it not only saves time and money but I get a better result in the end.

  119. -1, Wrong: "Creative" is a noun by langelgjm · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, according to the OED, "creative" is a noun, with the following senses:

    1. The creative faculty; creative work; (Advertising) creative material produced for an advertising campaign, such as the copy, design, or artwork.

    2. A creative person, a person whose job involves creative work; (Advertising) a person who carries out creative work on an advertising campaign, esp. a copywriter, art director, or designer.

    An example of the second sense dates to 1938.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    1. Re:-1, Wrong: "Creative" is a noun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the uses of "creative" that you quoted are clearly adjectives, not nouns. HTH!

  120. That sounds like Information Architecture to me... by soliptic · · Score: 1

    The flow goes like this:

    • What does the website *do* for customers? Why?
    • How do we make it easy for people to find stuff?
    • Can we make the visuals simple, and navigation clean?
    • Have we avoided clutter? Either visual or cognitive?
    • Is it readable? Does it pass muster at a Flesch "plain english" level?

    Otherwise known as "Information Architecture", and critical to effective web design. (Interesting, IAs tend to be the highest paid job title in the web dev field, see here.)

    An analogy for the coders: what's worse than trying to code a major piece of software without having fully worked out scope and specs - exactly what problems it needs to solve for the business, and so on.

    Ultimately, IA is why all those comments from the tediously omnipresent snide, sneering, critical, back-seat-driving, basement-dwelling slashdot minority saying graphic design is just clutter and flash and fluff and useless distraction, are sadly mistaken. The talented graphic designer uses every tool in the "visual language" toolbox (whitespace, typography, colour, shape, size, etc) to most clearly serve and support the priorities and relationships established by your IA.

    Here's one common method:

    • Brainstorm a range of persona representing archetypes of your main visitors. For example, you might include:
      • A (existing/potential) customer (b2c)
      • An (existing/potential) supplier
      • Someone from the media
      • A prospective employee

      Obviously it depends on the nature of your business.

    • Brainstorm what content and/or functionality those people would want to find on your site. Eg. product info, pricing info, online purchasing, how to find your physical shop(s), staff contact information, manuals and documentation, supplementary content/expansions, etc.
    • For each persona (whether or not that persona was one who desired it), assign numerical values of importance to each content or functionality item, including negative reactions. Eg, -1 = puts me off, 0 = neutral, 1 = pleased to see it, 2 = very pleased to see it / considers it essential. BE STRICT AND HARSH!
    • Assign a numeric ranking to the importance / weighting of each your persona (if, for example, you are likely to be visited by 10,000 times as many customers as suppliers, it doesn't make sense for the stuff the suppliers want to overwhelm the stuff the customers want.)
    • Spreadsheet magic (left as an exercise to the reader) can then produce an overall value score for each content or functionality item.
    • Stuff at the top is obviously critical. Your main nav will obviously want to be influenced by this (remember to structure navigation in terms of how visitors will see things, not in terms of organisational heirachies!) but it may go further. For example you may well want to have the top 2 or 3 items to have a prominent "pull out" direct link from the homepage.
    • Likewise, stuff at the bottom with very low scores, you should consider cutting altogether. Don't assume everything you add automatically adds value to the overall site - it's possible to have too much there, the more you have the more difficult it becomes to build navigation that remains supremely simple and usable.

    Now, some people write off this approach. They've got a point, but I'm wary of falling into sycophantic "OMG! 37signals said it, it must be true!" mode. It works for them, but not everybody has not everybody has their team, their instinct and experience, etc; for many organisations this is unfamiliar territory and therefore the persona exercise is a useful piece of formalism to force them to think of these things. Of course you don't follow it blindly and let yourself temper it with common sense.

    As for the technical side, as you're a techie, I ho

  121. Leonardo da Vinci by SamP2 · · Score: 1

    For y'all bashers saying that "a geek will never be an artist", here's an example of a man who was both a genius artist and a genius engineer.

    Of course, not all of us can get even close to the ability that guy had (in terms of universal talent, I don't think he's ever been topped by anyone in history, before or after him). But Leonardo's biggest advantage is that he did not divide the world into "art" and "science". Nothing was irrelevant for him, or outside of his range of capability. He never said "it's not my job" to anything, and therefore did not shackle himself with prejudice that would restrain his talent.

    To the original poster: don't succumb to the "it's not my job" mentality. If you are a one man show, EVERYTHING is your job. And yes, a coder who wants to learn the basics of design will never be as profound as a professional designer, and at first his design WILL look like it came from a 3-year-olds drawing album, but that does NOT mean he shouldn't keep learning. And I'll also say the same thing in the vice versa scenario (a graphical artist who tries to grasp the fundamentals of coding), even if at first his results will look like they came from thedailywtf. Practice makes perfect.

    Above all, don't succumb to trolls and haters who in their prejudice divide the whole world into "us" and "them", and vehemently oppose any "cultural interbreeding" between the realms of art and science.

    So never say "it's not my job", and let Leonardo be an inspiration to you. The World is only limited by your imagination and willingness to learn, and the particular field of study is much less restrictive than certain people would want you to believe.

  122. Boagworld Podcast by Edy52285 · · Score: 1

    I very strongly suggest listening to the Boagworld Podcast. They are from a firm in the UK and they give all kinds of advice for web developers, designers and website owners. They try to keep away from talking too techie which is good to keep in mind when explaining things to technophobes and they always always always talk about accessibility and web standards.

  123. Boagworld by Edy52285 · · Score: 1

    I very strongly suggest listening to the Boagworld Podcast. They are from a firm in the UK and they give all kinds of advice for web developers, designers and website owners. They try to keep away from talking too techie which is good to keep in mind when explaining things to technophobes and they always always always talk about accessibility and web standards. If you dont wanna listen to the podcast atleast read the blog and checkout the forum. http://www.boagworld.com/

  124. Not necessarily an option by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    Hiring someone is not always an option. The boss might not give you money for it. You might be the boss and have no money since your company is so small you have no profits yet. Or maybe there just isn't anyone to hire in your backwoods little town. There are many reasons why you might have to do the design yourself and the original poster seems to have one.

    I'd advise keeping things simple. If you are not a design guru, make your page with as little of it as possible. 98% content, 2% fluff is the best way to go when you are no good at fluff. Go to Home Depot; in the paint section you'll find a selection of free color scheme booklets. Use them. Minimize the number of pictures; use the company logo and as little else as possible. Absolutely no flash. This way you'll probably come up with something not too ugly. The customer comes to the site for the content anyway, and if fluff is all you sell, you don't deserve customers.

  125. CSS by dmsuperman · · Score: 1

    Honestly, just look around on freecsstemplates.org and find something you like, and use it. You find some very nice templates there.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };: Go!
  126. Required design reading by StreetStealth · · Score: 1

    by Donald Norman. If you're not trained as a designer and are being asked to design, this book is the most important thing you can read. In it is nothing about how to make things pretty, and everything about how to make things usable by humans.

    Heck, even if you are a designer that was trained in the art of making things pretty but not really the art of making things usable by humans, you need to read this book. There are certainly enough of those in this industry.

    --
    Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
  127. And now I will write on the whiteboard by StreetStealth · · Score: 2, Funny

    "I will always preview my HTML at /." 200 times.

    --
    Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
  128. Rising to a level of mediocrity by blackbeak · · Score: 1

    With an arts school background (RISD, Pratt, & Parsons) I've been running a one man design studio for over 25 years, have had to continually educate myself to keep up with technology, and have picked up HTML, CSS, Javascript and Flash programming skills along the way. I understand what it's like reaching beyond one's basic discipline, and it can be done. Naturally a programmer is preferred when things get complicated. An eye for design can be innate or developed. The developing path can take a long time.

    Someone who has naturally gravitated to the field of IT will most likely have a strong "left-brain", logical leaning that works counter to the development of visual design skills. It is not likely they will be doing the business any great favor by taking complete responsibility in this area. Going the cheapest route is usually one of the surest ways to keep the business small.

    Design takes time and good design - which might actually appear very simple - takes longer. Way longer for the inexperienced. I suppose the IT department is a bit slow these days? If not your boss is paying for design whether you do it or not. Probably best to have you keep the machines up while a designer designs.

    That said, I see web design as a two part process. First, distill all the various elements until you've found the simplest way to serve the required functionality. You've really only a few acceptable options in terms of location of navigational items etc. Google "Jacob Nielsen" and read up on usability.

    For the second stage, collect (and discuss with your boss) screen shots of web sites you like, figure out what is appealing about them. Define a basic design theme, and incorporate some of those ideas gleaned off your screen shots. If your company already has a decent logo and/or professionally developed printed materials use some graphic elements from those. Build a simple palette with a few colors/shades that work well together. Keep everything simple and clean. You don't want a "shotgun blast" of design ideas. Apply styling consistently. Don't jump from round buttons here to rectangular ones there and something else somewhere else. Subtly adapt your theme into several templates so deeper levels are differentiated from your home page. Make some sketches of what you want to accomplish and then figure out how you can create this with CSS and a minimum of HTML.

    Most image files are composited and optimized in PhotoShop, but may (in whole or part) have originated in Illustrator or elsewhere.

    Final tip: keep your variety of fonts (styles, weights, colors and sizes) to a minimum unless you work for a circus!

    After all your efforts, chances are your resulting site will not be "good design", but instead you might pull off a "fair to middling design" - and that should be considered pretty good! If good design was everyone's domain, I'd have been out of business long ago!

    --
    Everything and its opposite is true. Get used to it.
  129. European geeks can code AND design by mpascal · · Score: 1

    This obviously is a vast generalization and I'm not trying to start a flame war. But my experience has been that European and Canadian coders are more likely to be capable to dress their code in a simple but elegant design compared to their US counterparts. I'll say that 85% of European and Canadian coders can design while 85% of US coders can not.

    Why?

    My guess is that there are more art classes in K-12 education than in the US and there is greater respect for art, architecture and historic preservation.

    The US coders who can also design are few and far apart and very hard to find. They usually get snapped up right away by the big advertising agencies or the big web design firms that cater to them.

    I expect the situation to improve somewhat in the future since kids get exposed to webdesign at a much younger age.

  130. Don't quit your coding job by MisterSquid · · Score: 1

    Green is green and yellow is green plus red.

    Green, my friend, is not green; green is yellow and blue. I'm not even going to touch "green plus red," though I suspect it might be Christmas.

    --
    blog
    1. Re:Don't quit your coding job by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1

      Green, my friend, is not green; green is yellow and blue. I'm not even going to touch "green plus red," though I suspect it might be Christmas.

      I wouldn't quit your job either. You're speaking of subtractive color, which is only applicable to paint. Vision is based on light, of which the primary colors are red, green and blue.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
  131. Some tools by Neurotoxic666 · · Score: 1
    I hope I'm not repeating what someone else already said, I didn't read the comments yet.

    But I've found a few websites that were really useful when I had to design websites myself, or advertisements.

    dafont.com -> Lots of free fonts, many of which you can use for graphics
    sxc.hu -> royalty-free photographs
    templatemonster.com -> Ideas. Lots of ideas.
    your competitor's website -> see what they're doing, and do better.

    --
    You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
  132. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I'd advise extra care if using this approach. Marketing people are not usability experts

    Whups (ding) Thank you for playing.

    Good marketing people are usability experts. Advertising people aren't. Best not to confuse the two.

    The distinction is fairly simple; Advertising people try to sell things by annoying you, marketing people try to sell things that don't annoy you. The latter defines a niche, the former tries to cram you into it. Seriously. Advertising sells, marketing determines what will sell before the advertiser even sees it.

    Other than that quibble, you're pretty much on target. Too much shiny on the site is lame, but good artwork is imperative. Remember this is the foyer of your company's premises to a lot of people, and people read "cheap" into a company really quickly on that first impression. I'd no more design the letterhead of a company than I'd let an un-ticketed outsider play with our DC's air conditioning.

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  133. Every one thinks they're a designer these days... by DigitalSkyline · · Score: 0

    Do you also fix the plumbing? Paint the walls? Change your own oil? Quit beiung a cheap ass, HIRE A PROFESSIONAL.

    --
    Knowin' nothin' in life but to be legit' Don't quote me boy, cuz I ain't said shit
  134. All your answers... by Eth1csGrad1ent · · Score: 1

    ...can be found on ONE site. http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/

  135. outsource by bsdmang · · Score: 1

    hmmm no one mentioned http://www.getafreelancer.com/ but maybe I broke the first law of usenet by mentioning it... Here's one example: http://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/Flash-Website-Design/Website-Design.223416.html

  136. Ok so maybe it's not always necessary by mstahl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Most of my work where we had to worry about this was online annual reports, which MUST be accessible (by law) to anyone who asks for them. That being the "public" in "publicly-traded corporation", but yeah. I remember having to jump through so many hoops on [super large global corporation]'s annual report that I finally broke down and told them that when they find the one blind investor they have, call me, I'll go to his/her house and explain it to them if they want, 'cause that would've been easier.

    Also, finally last year I got a chance to speak to a real live blind person about this, and they confirmed pretty much what you just said. Blind people, in general, can't really use the web without assistance. When I asked him about that super-neat braille terminal Whistler uses in Sneakers, he seemed dubious about it at best :(.

  137. Towards the middle, you have programmers by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    You can identify these people as the ones that back up their claims that they know how to design websites by saying they know HTML and Photoshop.

    I don't think you can blame them for that. If you look through books on web design most of them will be about coding with graphics added. Very few books go over colours, page layouts, and such.

    Falcon
  138. Open Source Solutions by dr_strang · · Score: 1

    Some really great solutions are out there for people who don't want or need to design a site from the ground up or take a year of web design classes.

    Joomla, Mamba, many others. You don't need to know web design to do these. You do, however need to know how to either:

    a) set up a linux LAMP setup or
    b) get a hostmonster.com type account with PHP and MySQL access.

    Other than that it's really nice. Pretty mature and at least Joomla has lots of 3rd party components, free ware and commercial.

    --
    This is a sig. It is like every other sig in the world, except that it is mine, and it is different.
  139. probably depends on the school by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    To generalize a bit, my experience is that the more "high art" a school views itself as, the less useful its students are for applied stuff like graphic design. If they spend all their time reading theoretical treatises and visiting modern-art galleries, they're not learning the same skills that a webdesigner needs. A local institution which I'm familiar (left nameless to protect the guilty), for example, is almost actively opposed to what they see as the "vocationalization" of their field, and sort of goes out of their way to make it a Real Art School For Real Serious Artists. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but their students aren't likely to be good web designers, unless they learned additional skills elsewhere.

    1. Re:probably depends on the school by FLEB · · Score: 1

      I think that more depends on what classes you were offered or taking. If you're taking fine arts classes, no, you're probably going to have less of a practically-focused design curriculum as someone who took graphic design classes. Although they say that a good designer can design most anything, I've more often than not found that in most cases, niches and specific talent areas do hold true. For example, I've seen some hideous typography and layout with really sharp illustrations, from folks that were educated in illustration. I, however, would probably make a well-laid-out but cringeworthy work myself if it had to include my own illustration. My drawing skill can take me as far as "for position only", but I was trained in graphic design, not illustration or fine art.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
  140. Do it yourself! by sysusr · · Score: 1

    Despite being a techy, I've always loved to dabble in website design. Soon after I mastered the basics I realised that no matter how good I got at html, my sites never looked pro. They were well written and often cleverly designed but they lacked adequate graphics. I remember trying to use photoshop and literally not being able to draw a single line. Advanced graphics programs can sometimes seem to be out to make your life hard, and learning a program like photoshop is extremely intimidating for someone who just wants to hack up some images for his or her website.

    The solution? Make your own graphics from ground up! I started off making stuff in MS Paint pixel by pixel. With a little knowledge of CSS I learnt to turn an image one pixel wide and several pixels long into a really kickass background. Pretty soon I was making backgrounds worthy of any commercial site.

    Next step: navigation menus. The trick to these is to make one button onto which you can then paste whatever text you need. Also consider inverting the colours or playing with the brightness/contrast/hue/saturation to have an onMouseOver button the same size. With just a little attention to detail you can make a really cool navigation menu that works great whether they have javascript on or off.

    When you look around at some great sites, the background image and navigation buttons are usually what give the site its "punch". Any other photos, images or whatever just fill in gaps or build around what the background and navigation menu have already created. Get those right and even an otherwise shabby site can look quite cute.

    If you see any random graphic online that has some effect you like (such as blending into the bg or some glowing look) open it up in Paint and have a look at how to pixels are coloured to make it look that way, then use that in your images!

    There are some great free tools available to make graphic design a breeze. One example is Paint.net. It feels a lot like MS Paint in its down-to-earth simplicity, but the more menus you click the more cool things you'll find you can do. It really is like Paint on protein shakes. If you've ever used Paint, you'll find you can sit down at Paint.net and make really complex graphics very quickly. Very little adjustment is required but you get infinitely more functionality.

    --
    \x72\x6D\x20\x2D\x72\x66
  141. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  142. Books recommended by a graphic artist by David+Sudweeks · · Score: 1

    Books won't teach you everything you need to know, but if you want to be a graphic artist (as a hobby) I'll suggest one, for starters:
    Ellen Lupton's 'Thinking With Type' is a great intro to graphic design for the non-so-typographically-inclined. The second book I recommend is a sketchbook. You provide the content. This is the way it's done, and the only way real artists learn. If you haven't got the time, then take [virtually] everyone else's advice and hire some talent.

  143. diagramming by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Use something like Microsoft Project to setup a flow chart. Know what you are going to have on your front page, knwo what menus you are going to have, and submenus. Have this designed before you start coding.

    Actually what's better than MS Project, and cheaper, is a drawing or sketch pad. Sketch out a Story Board of the layout of each page with labels for links such as with storyboards here.

    Falcon
  144. Start with some good colors by unsmashed · · Score: 1

    Chances are, your company already has a company color. But what looks good with that? Without going through color theory classes, you can get some good suggestions at http://www.colorschemer.com/ - they have a tool that lets you pick your base color and see what works well with it. You can also see premade color schemes that other people have done.

  145. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by largesnike · · Score: 2, Funny

    Player's Handbook?

    --
    "Laugh while you can a-monkey boy!" - Dr Emilio Lizardo
  146. Easy by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 1

    Get a decent Template

    Google "Web Template" then add your tech of choice, php, asp, flash etc

  147. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I disagree!
    You should rather talk to your clients/end users, see what they like/don't like about the site.
    Then you can think about modifying your site.
    Keyword=Usability!

  148. Define the task at hand. by Jayjay2 · · Score: 1

    As someone who delivers both graphic design and application development services to small-business, I propose you ask your boss just how serious he is about "punching up" the website. If he is serious, get a real designer. There are too many question regarding the design of a site that you probably haven't even thought to ask yet (I noted that there was no mention of your audience in your post, and this is probably the most important aspect of the design process). It will cost you, but if the designer knows what they are doing, and all the planets are in alignment, you should get the results your boss is after (whatever they are, again I see no mention in the post).

    If he isn't too serious and just wants it done on a whim, save your $$$ and do as others here have suggested: get some professional off-the-shelf templates and maybe put them into a free CMS like Joomla or Drupal. Don't expect this to increase your customer usage (or do anything to your bottom-line) though as this type of largely superficial action brings no real benefit to your customers.

    As an extra tip, if you do try to find a designer, try and find one who has an understanding of, or who practices, actual application development (they do exist). The synergy between the two aspects can reap much better rewards than having 2 seperate people, but make sure it isn't just a coder who knows Photoshop, or just a Photoshop jockey who knows a bit of PHP.

    Good luck.

  149. Try this book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.sitepoint.com/launch/471cbb

    The book is called the principles of beautiful web design. What makes this book awesome is that it was made for a programmer, wanting to design a nice looking site. Almost all books are the other way around!

    Read and learn away - I know the book helped me a lot, and is a bit of a godly tome for me now.

  150. In my humble opinion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wikipedia has some of the best design web pages on the Net. Stick to just two columns, no frames, and make sure the text flows and can be enlarge for we half-blind middle-age farts.

    And younglings - there are two things bad for your eyes - reading and watching TV.

    You are doing both at the same thing, right NOW!

  151. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by symbolic · · Score: 1

    Remember this is the foyer of your company's premises to a lot of people, and people read "cheap" into a company really quickly on that first impression.

    I suppose that's why Google is failing so badly.

  152. Re:Unify your online presence and Marketing progra by mdavids · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Websites are communication tools, not marketing tools. By all means make them look and feel nice (and consistent with your branding), but treat your users with respect. They chose to visit your site, so don't treat them like they're just passing through while waiting for "America's Biggest Celebrity Dancing Loser" to start. You don't need to grab their attention; you've got their attention. Now give them what they came for.

  153. It's Simple by brundlefly · · Score: 1

    Simple, clear graphics are not that dissimilar from simple, clear scripts. Neither is a quantifiable entity unto itself, and each requires definition to be useful in any form worthy for business.

    There are plenty of "designer" businesses needing only a little "scripting" to get them to the next level. And there are plenty of "hacker" businesses who would benefit greatly from just a little "design work".

    This has been the case since (as memory serves me) at least 1994 or so. No kidding. Same creative folks have no cgi-bin scripts; same kernel haxors have disgusting looking web sites.

    Why is there no barter marketplace for this work? So much entry-level work is left undone simply because there is a gulf between mouse-people and keyboard-people.

    Get it together!

  154. Requring flash is not good design by nixeagle · · Score: 1

    Looking at one of your suggested sites, http://www.thefwa.com/ requires flash 7 or higher. If the site lists good design, and you are not suggesting it in itself is good design, your list is somewhat better. However it is a bad sign when you can't view a site's main page because you don't have a proprietary plugin.

    1. Re:Requring flash is not good design by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      That site is the directory. You don't have to use the directory... it's like the Yellow Pages. You can hunt down the businesses yourself OR you can use the format the directory is provided in. I won't defend their choice of formats but i also won't acknowledge your opinion as anything other than an opinion. Personally I think they did an awesome job of providing a fun interactive user experience. OTOH they could probably provide a basic list of sites as well... no extra charge.

      You probably wouldn't appreciate that list either however as all the sites linked to also require Flash 7 or higher.... it's a directory of great flash based websites. Doh!

      In general regarding Flash as a communication medium...

      Great Flash Design is great design.... There is nothing wrong with flash based sites. That's like saying that Sony PS3 games are poorly designed as they require a Sony PS3 to view them. Even better... An extremely well designed boathouse, that you can't appreciate unless you have a boat... or saying that the Golden Gate bridge is stupid because only people in San Francisco get to enjoy it regularly. It is Flash, it is not HTML... so what?

      How about a book written in Braille? Not a very accessible choice by the author I must say... but perfectly valid as a work of literature.

      What i'm trying to say is that you have to get over the fact that people (99% of the world in fact) have installed a proprietary plugin for viewing content via a browser http connection, that is not HTML or a variant thereof. You may choose to ignore this fact AND all of the amazingly creative and interesting ideas that people have used Flash to communicate but the rest of us will take the opportunity to enjoy it all as best we can with what limited means we can apply towards it.

      And yes, I was suggesting it as inspiration. People can be inspired by mediums other than the one they are currently working in. Like an auto engineer being inspired by an architect, it happens all the time.

      That site i listed includes websites created for nearly all of the fortune 1000 companies as well as all the name brands you have ever known. Most of them are campaign specific and targeted at the Net generation... those who are in their late teens, early 20s now and are the biggest major demographic companies care about right now. By reviewing those sites listed on thefwa (The Favorite Website Awards) you could possibly glean a small amount of the billions of dollars that have gone into the market research for that demographic.... for free. You get hundreds of thousands of dollars of free solutions that target a very highly sought after demographic which has expendable income and doesn't know what to spend it on yet.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    2. Re:Requring flash is not good design by nixeagle · · Score: 1

      Interesting logic, by that... I suppose we should all exchange Microsoft word files because 99% of people use it. (Yes its a stat pulled out of my nether area, but so is the statistic you quoted). I'm just saying that 1) I was unable to get at the site, and 2) I think its bad design to force flash, its not that hard to do an alternate site. This whole flash thing reminds me of the Internet Explorer only websites.

      Lets take your Braille example, there are very few texts if any at all that are Braille only, I can usually find an alternate text that is in printed english. This is similar to what I'm asking for.

      All in all, if its just a directory of flash sites, then I suppose it means nothing if I can see the directory anyway, I just found it odd to call a site that is in accessible to screen readers or text only browsers good design. I do appreciate the other links you left though, thanks! :)

      PS: If flash can be read through a screen reader I'd love to know

    3. Re:Requring flash is not good design by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Sorry to be so argumentative...

      FYI the 99% figure is an actual install base (though from Adobe's stats page, not independent). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Market_share

      I personally prefer the progressive enhancement methodology... but it's not always possible.

      When there is an accessible, etc. alternative to what you can do with Flash... we'll all switch over. Until then it is still the most rich media experience you can author for the browser. ie when you can mix video, audio and dynamic content in a composited output via some other method, well let me know when you've found it.

      Again, Flash is a tool... it's not always the best tool but sometimes it is...

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  155. Web Developer vs Web Designer by Jayjay2 · · Score: 1

    Your logic is based on historical job definitions, which is okay but fails to take into account the possibilities borne from merging the Web Developer and Web Designer role. It started a few years ago, but will be the way of the future : people who are able to effectively design a site AND build it. These people have training as designers (no, it's not some God-given talent or an extra chromosome) and who have also trained/learnt professional level HTML, CSS, JS and if they are truly dedicated to their craft, at least some knowledge of server-side development.

    Web designers (by the definition you've given) are going to go the way of the dodo. If I understand you correctly, they aren't print designers so don't know how to get something ready for pre-press, and they don't know how to code.

  156. Tips from a graphic designer by Guerilla*+Napalm · · Score: 1

    I've been working as graphic designer for the last 10 years, and in that time the number of programmers I've met that could design I can count on my one hand. Forget close-by universities or design schools, they try to train artists not designers. Prepare your content, current navigation structure (and potential future expansion of the site) and corporate stock (60x60px is not suitable) for a designer. Be realistic with your expectations - if you want a site that brings you coffee and gives you a bj in the mornings, be prepared to pay for it.

  157. Don't Make Me Think! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the best book out there to help you making something decent:

    "Don't Make Me Think! A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability" by Steve Krug
    http://www.amazon.com/Common-Approach-Usability-Circle-Com-Library/dp/0789723107

  158. Zeldman by wolverine1999 · · Score: 1

    Get the book by Zeldman... check out his site zeldman.com too.

  159. A List Apart by rrrojer · · Score: 1

    excellent resource: http://www.alistapart.com/

  160. Answering the question by TuringTest · · Score: 1

    For me, the book that did it was
    The Non-Designer's Design Book, by Robin Williams. It provides explanations of the core concepts taught in graphic design courses: Contrast, Repetition, Alignment and Proximity, with lots of comparative examples before-and-after applying those basic rules. It also has a whole section about how using type fonts effectively.

    She also has a "Non-designers web book", but it centers too much in the basics about web technology and has less deepness about the real payoff, the principles of good design.

    --
    Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  161. Hire a pro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't learn to design a good website from books, schools or guides, also, nobody can teach you that.
    You either have talent or not, to learn wich way it is, you just have to make tons of websites until you will know if you can or can't make them.

    Hire a professional to do that. Wont cost that much.

  162. Not by the comedian/actor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Non-Designer's Design Book and/or The Non-Designer's Web book by Robin Williams (no, not the manic, hairy comedian) provide sound basics in graphic design, covering concepts such as contrast and contrast, repetition, alignment, and proximity. These books spell out the foundations of good graphic design without overwhelming you.

  163. I have had problems doing that by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    I have had clients say: "oh, that's nice but it *has* to have this special msft font, and it has to have this special background . . ." Changing around the themes in drupal, or whatever, can be more difficult than changing things in your own html/css code.

  164. Wrong again by langelgjm · · Score: 1

    Those are not 'uses' of creative, they are definitions. If you don't believe me, look it up yourself. The headword in the OED is "creative, n."

    If you want an actual use, here is the quotation from 1938: "1938 T. DREISER in W. S. Maugham Of Human Bondage (new ed.) I. p. v, Life..is our best novelist and our best biographer... Only it does not write them [sc.novels and biographies] except and perforce..through one of its creations or creatives."

    A more modern and perfect example of the contested usage is this: "2000 M. JOHNSON Drop iii. 160 Could you send a portfolio over, a client list and such?.. And could you tell me the name of the head creative? Thank you."

    I.e., wrong again.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    1. Re:Wrong again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just contradicted yourself there, bucko.

      "It's not 'uses' ... it's 'definitions' ... "
      and then
      "A modern example of the usage ..."

      You sound like you think language is not something that evolves, and can be referenced from a 1938 usage of the word.

      How do you define "creative"? Well, it depends on your usage of the word, innit?

  165. When you're done with this task... by fullback · · Score: 1
    could you hop over to accounting and help Mary? I think she needs a root canal. Maybe some of the folks at Slashdot could offer some advice to help you "punch up" her teeth, too. Then, could you change the brakes on the company car, finish up the tax paperwork before the IRS shows up on Tuesday for the audit, and get us a bridge loan for $2 million?

    Thanks,

    Your boss

  166. a good book to have by frank_tudor · · Score: 1

    Don't make me think
    A common sense approach to web usability
    Second Edition
    Steve Krug
    ISBN: 0-321-34475-8

    This book (if it has not already been suggested), will help you with layout and page organization. It will also help you because it shows many examples of sites that have good layout design. Start with the fundamentals.

  167. There are ways to employ designers cheaply by M-RES · · Score: 1

    As a 'Createch' (designer who codes/coder who designs) and having personal experience of trying to sort out the visual mess most geeks create when they have a go (in the same way that geeks have to sort out the code mess when designers have a go), I'd definitely suggest using a designer to conjure something up for you.

    This needn't be too expensive. If the people who hold the purse strings in your company can give you a small budget to play with (you could justify this by explaining that it's not cost effective for you to be spending hours trying to get this right when you've far more important jobs to be working on), you could try running a competition on sitepoint.com.

    You just give them a brief (with examples of current company logo/stationery if you wish) and let the competition run - the winning designer gets the booty and you get a whole raft of ideas (quite often some very good designs) to run with. You can ask them to modify elements of the design and develop ideas further as the comp runs (ie: choices of colours/fonts/graphical styles). Be thorough in your brief though - it's easy for someone to misinterpret what you mean if you're a bit vague.

    I know many companies who've benefitted from this system if they're on a tight budget, and many of the designers are just looking for a bit of extra cash on the side to supplement the day job so don't mind giving you an hour or two of their free time for the opportunity.

    Hope that helps...

  168. Dreamweaver & Photoshop/GIMP by k00laid · · Score: 1

    I've been doing essentially the same for years, and early on Macromedia's Dreamweaver was my savior, but I'm migrated away as my skills have got a little better and I rely on CSS more and more. That said if your new to layout and coding it's the only way to go. Further if you are going to get serious you need to get into something like Photoshop (not free), GIMP (OSS), or to a lesser extent but much simpler Paint.NET (free). Otherwise man, find you a Graphics guy and have him do the layout for you. Geeks aren't supposed to be able do everything, no matter what management thinks.

  169. Design it is about communication. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I teach web design and development at a college. A designer must think about the site as a communication tool. There is an idea you are trying to convey. To accomplish this a designer uses the tools of design. Color, typography, imagery, and composition are just to name a few. It is an artform, just like coding. You can accomplish the task more than one way, but which is the most efficient way. The more you do it the easier it is to answer that question. A book I use is by sitepoint, The principles of beautiful Web design by Jason Beaird, and there are many designers out there that have good information to pass along, Andy Clarke, Andy Rutledge, Molly Holzberg. Go look at their blogs. You can also take some courses on the subject. I will not lie, most colleges don't have a grasp on current trends or methods. You can take just design courses and apply it to your profession. The college I teach at has a more up-to-date curriculum, since we use real web professionals in our advisory committee. However this is not the case everywhere. Web design is like graphic design, you just use another medium.

  170. Click this link: by foniksonik · · Score: 1

    http://programmermeetdesigner.com/

    It's perfect for you....

    --
    A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  171. Fallacy: You Can't Do It Yourself by EgoWumpus · · Score: 1

    First of all, it's disingenuous to compare surgery with doing a web page, whether it's one page or an enterprise-level site. The former is taking life into your hands, the latter is a web page.

    But perhaps more importantly, I find it reprehensible to suggest that people shouldn't attempt to do these things - even if they're not good at them, even if they suck really badly. If you have the interest, you should pursue it. It is a valid pursuit to look at and learn from other's products (and if you disagree with this, you might as well throw out all art ever). The only thing that is unethical is copying it and claiming it's yours, or benefiting from someone else's work.

    I recognize that you object to people out of the box thinking they can do it 'just as well', but lets not be narrow.

    --

    [Ego]out

  172. Dang by MisterSquid · · Score: 1

    That's what I get for playing with Crayolas.

    --
    blog
  173. You can take a good stab at design if you need to by shuston · · Score: 1

    Although all the comments to get a pro are worthwhile, in the event that's not an option for one reason or another, you can take a good stab at designing a good site. I've had to do this also - I recommend (in addition to other resources mentioned) "The Non-Designer's Design and Type Books" by Robin Williams. It's written for people who need to get a decent design but are not designers. It's been very helpful for me.

    Good luck!

  174. A couple references... by Erskin · · Score: 1

    Here's a couple books that should help you out.:

    • The Non-Designers Design Book by Robin Williams
    • Designing Web Usability by Jacob Nielsen
    --

    Erskin
    geek.

  175. There is no algorithm to follow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have gotten several replies along the lines of:

    "There are rules and conventions...you can learn them." And others with lists of things for you to check, such as the color wheel, rule of thirds, active and passive shapes, and so on.

    Keep in mind that graphic design is not an engineering discipline, it is an art. You cannot just learn the rules and then apply them and be successful. Design is not the same as writing code.

    Try composing a song, designing a gown, painting a portrait in oils, or writing a short story to see how this works.

    If you can't now go out and get a job as a graphic artist then plan on giving it at least six months of full time effort. After that, look back on what you've done to see if it's any good. Chances are that at best you've learned to appreciate and understand good design but you still can't do it.

    There is no algorithm to follow to become an artist. Artists do not think linearly. They do not make lists or categorize things. They do not optimize for performance. For an artist, everything is a swirl of possibility, and a success just is. It comes when it comes, or not, and it either comes to you or never will. Talent is not cumulative.

  176. use a mature CMS, pro templates by capsteve · · Score: 1

    save yourself the headache of rolling your own design. you're not going to learn graphic design on the job. you might have learned certain design aesthetics(i.e. i know what i like), but don't kid yourself that you can be a graphic designer. graphic design is an art craft, just like painting and sculpture, abeit a more controlled art form. let the pro's do their job, and you do yours.

    it sounds to me like you have the ability to code it all, if you choose to go that route. however, at some point in time, you might want to open up the content submission process to someone else, like the boss's secretary or an office administrator. use a CMS that is mature and has plenty of extensions and theming capability, like joomla. buy a professionally designed theme from joomlashack or rockettheme. a theme-capable CMS will allow you to refresh the theme on a regular basis.

    nuff sed.

    --
    three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
  177. My 2 cents by precogpunk · · Score: 1

    I don't agree with those suggesting that you tell your boss "this is not my job". I've seen a lot of graphic designers make their own web site so I would not be surprised if developers are sometimes capable of doing the design work themselves. But I did hear your comment that "graphic design isn't one of my strengths". I think you have two options.

    1. Ask your boss for site within your category that he likes. What do they have that your site doesn't? Get some bids from some independent web designers (include your time for implementation) then take them to your boss and tell him the true cost of making the changes.

    2. Your boss probably likes good design but doesn't want to pay for it. Based on what he likes try to find some free templates from some of the resources people have already mentioned (like CSS Zen Garden). Have him pick the free design that works best, "If you don't want to pay for a design look at these free ones. But keep in mind it will take me X hours to implement it." If you have some friends that are good at design then ask them for some free advice as you're implementing the templates, "Do these fonts look right? Is the logo too big?" etc etc...

  178. consider Google in context by krog · · Score: 1

    Specifically, go back ten years, pre-Google. Search engines such as Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos, Excite, etc. have been steadily piling more and more bullshit into their search pages -- er, excuse me, INTERNET PORTALS. News, stock quotes, feeble attempts to keep up with What's New! on the web... it's all there on the front page, usually in a sea of frames and/or tables which take 20 seconds to render.

    Then Google comes along. Not only does their search absolutely embarrass their competitors', but the search page also loads just about instantly. No front page ads, no attempts to pull your eyes off the prize, no crapping up a perfectly good tool with useless and deleterious ornamentation. A clean search page which performs the best search ever.

    At the time of its introduction, Google's spare design screamed anything but "Cheap!" It might have had as much to do with their success, initially, as the tech behind it.

  179. Joomla and a pay template by 511pf · · Score: 1

    You should check out http://rockettheme.com/ and http://joomlashack.com/ Joomla templates. Their templates look great and are easy to modify for your purposes. Plus, they're a lot cheaper than hiring a pro or putting out a mediocre design. Joomla is relatively easy to learn and customize.

  180. Oh, and qualifications for the record: by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    I'm a professional web/graphic designer, and an amateur (hack, but working on it) photographer.

    I'd like to combine the two in a way, photography and web development. What I want do is sale photographs online. A number of other photographers want to create websites, some if only for an online portfolio. When last in college for, computer science, I also took photo classes and talked to a bunch of people majoring in it. So what I was thinking was packaging together open source projects and creating templates whereby I could setup photography websites for other photographers. One problem though is that I don't know much at all about design and page layout.

    Falcon
    1. Re:Oh, and qualifications for the record: by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Just curious, what forms are you planning to sell photos in? Prints? Stock licensing? A portfolio for selling further services?

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
  181. what forms are you planning to sell photos in? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Prints? Stock licensing? A portfolio for selling further services?

    I plan on selling digital files online, and perhaps join one or more microstock websites, and having an online portfolio. One thing some photographers are doing now is shooting for families or groups, say a child playing Little League baseball or skating, then letting people download photos from a website. From what I've read this is popular with weddings. Now as for what I want to shoot, I love outdoor and nature photography as well as cultural scenes. I also would like to try fine art macro photography and astrophotography. The problem I'd have with astrophotography is that I live in a big city and there isn't anyplace within a 100 miles with a good view of the stars and no light pollution. I'm also interested in photojournalism.

    Faqlcon
  182. Wrong yet again by langelgjm · · Score: 1

    You just contradicted yourself there, bucko.

    No, I didn't. In my original post, I quoted definitions of the word "creative" from the OED. You did not and apparently still do not understand this, since you replied that my "uses" were adjectives. A definition is not an attested example of usage. In my second reply, I then cited attested usages of the word.

    You sound like you think language is not something that evolves, and can be referenced from a 1938 usage of the word.

    You sound like you didn't read the rest of my post. I gave two attestations: one from 1938, and one from 2000. This shows that not only is "creative" used as a noun, but also that that usage is not very recent. There were also several other attestations from the years between that I did not cite.

    Of course language changes over time. As a student of several languages and someone who knows how to properly read a dictionary, I understand that quite well - and apparently much better than you do.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson