Slashdot Mirror
UK Commissioner Seeks To Ban Ultrasonic Anti-Teen Device
mikesd81 points out a Times Online article that discusses the legality of the Mosquito sound device, which is used to annoy and drive off younger people with sounds that are too high-pitched for most adults to hear. We discussed how annoying this device can be a couple years ago. From Times Online:
"Sir Albert Aynsley-Green, the Children's Commissioner for England appointed to represent the views of the country's 11 million children, has set up a campaign — called Buzz Off — that is calling for the Mosquito to be banned on grounds that it infringes the rights of young people. 'These devices are indiscriminate and target all children and young people, including babies, regardless of whether they are behaving or misbehaving,' Sir Al told the BBC. 'The use of measures such as these are simply demonizing children and young people, creating a dangerous and widening divide between the young and the old.'"
Wow. . .uhm. . .yeah, definitely going to have to RTFA on this one, sounds way too easy to agree with. Gotta get in a first post first though.
If you are about to mod me down, keep in mind that this post was most likely sarcastic.
Followed the link to TFA. I listened to the tone that I, as a 44-year-old, was not supposed to be able to hear. Sure enough, I heard it. It's faint, I had to use DJ-style headphones to isolate it enough, but it was audible.
I couldn't be the only person who can hear a 25,000Hz tone at my age. I could see how this device could backfire big time. I certainly wouldn't stick around a store where my ears were so assaulted. I hope this never catches on in the US.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
If the answer to that is 'yes', then /b/ would be interested in 9001 of these...
"This is a technological device, and you can't outlaw it !", right ? It's a "hack", and cool. Only it affects many people who read this site, as opposed to (mostly) rich people, like authors.
But I fear we will get a shameful demonstration of human nature, making "noble" excuses to force whatever suits the individual making the excuse.
Parents of my generation made it clear to us that we didn't have any rights (save for child protection if they were abusive) until we were 18 and legally responsible for ourselves. I think the world is partly screwed up because we give irresponsible kids too much rights, power and money where they are at an age where they should be learning basic skills of dealing with society and learning life lessons and having the advantage and opportunities of just being kids.
I say parents should rightfully deprive the kids of cars, money, x-boxes, etc. till they have really earned it. Let them play in the parks, go to the library, beat each other up in the back yard, lets not make them lousy consumers.
one of the main reason of that mosquito noise thing is popular is to keep these socially inept kids from vandalizing and or ripping off businesses.
Wouldn't using these purely to annoy already be outlawed by the same means that blowing airhorns constantly in public spaces is outlawed?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
As to the original device, maybe the little bastards will understand how I feel every time they drive by in their car or park outside, playing the latest example of what passes for music these days, with the bass level set at "stun small mammals".
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
It lists at 500 pounds. That is over 1000 US dollars. Why is it so expensive? It's just a waveform generator, an amp, and a speaker, right?
A way to make you darn kids get off my lawn!
Just -1, Troll talking to another.
Worst superpower ever, really.
Old fogeys can hear it perfectly.
It doesn't work as advertised.
No sig today...
If you tried the mosquito samples and simply couldn't hear the last, highest frequency one -- the problem is not your hearing. I opened it with an audio editor to be sure, and the waveform is a flat line. There is NO SOUND in that file.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Miss, I don't think you were listing to the right music. After all the loud amplified music I listened to in my youth, a high frequency ringing is just about all I hear.
Just -1, Troll talking to another.
I thought this sounded familiar, but with classical music and light that makes your acne look worse. It's still socially acceptable to stereotype, mock, fear, hate and discriminate against young people.
kids are monsters. If there's a device to drive them off that's fantastic. Is there a similar device for lawyers?
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
You can easily have computer equipment that can't reproduce frequencies that high. While 15kHz isn't especially high, and the general range of audio is considered to be "20-20,000Hz," there's plenty of cheap gear that rolls off before that. Unless you are sure your gear does a good job reproducing sounds in a given range, I wouldn't count on it as an accurate hearing test.
is priceless
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I heard it too, though my age isn't much of a factor in this case. I'm 29 but have had nerve hearing loss and deafness all my life. I require a hearing aide, but knowing the aide often works like MP3 compression... I don't tend to hear things through the hearing aide's microphone in music, such as high hats. (higher, tinnier frequencies are simply stripped out selectively) However, without the hearing aide and decent sound isolating headphones, I can hear more than I can hear with the hearing aide.
That considered, I STILL heard the tone, with and without my hearing aide.
It's a deep (as in penetrating), high pitched, persistent FHWEEEE whine. Very similar to flyback transformer whine when you get one of those CRT tubes failing.
Even being the deaf kid on the block, so to speak, I would smash one of those units, without any hesitation, if I had to have my area befouled with that kind of noise pollution.
Captcha: hostile
Use Audacity, a free/open source program. Available for Mac OS X, Windows, and the platform it originated on, Linux. Ask it to generate a 25,000Hz sine-wave tone for 10 seconds. Then take a listen to the results. Can you hear the tone? I can.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
You are correct, it's digital silence. This is not that surprising though. They clearly don't know what the fuck they are doing. They claim it's a 22.4kHz tone. Ok... except that it is sampled at 44.1kHz. The Nyquist Theorem tells us that you can't represent a sound over half the sample rate. So at 44.1kHz the best you are going to get is 22.05kHz (and then only if it is a pure tone).
They are also kidding themselves on the age thing. I'm nearly 30 and I can hear the 17.7kHz tone fine. It's a little quiet and getting near the upper limit of my hearing, but it is audible no problem.
Man, I will start taking you serious the moment my mind gets around the thought of a one-year-old Criminal.
This isn't stopping theft, it is torturing babies. The worst part? If the parents are too old to hear the sound, they. have. no. clue. what. you. are. doing. to. their. kid.
I'm assuming you don't have little ones of your own. Strike that, I'm hoping you don't have little ones of your own.
Also, on a side note, this seems very stupid from a business sense. Kids grow up to be consumers, and many companies spend massive amounts to burn brand loyalties into their young impressionable minds. How quick will that noise make a massive headache a Pavlovian response to anything related to your brand.
Seems more like they're shooting themselves in the foot, not protecting themselves.
Just -1, Troll talking to another.
I JUST turned 28 yesterday, so I clicked on the listen file to see if I could hear it.
:)
I turned my speakers up just a bit (from an almost muted level) before hitting play, and I actually shouted in pain when it started. I'm REALLY glad I wasn't wearing my headphones.
So if you're curious like I was... start with the volume OFF, and bring it up SLOW.
If I walked by one of these things, a metal protective grating wouldn't stop me from trying to smash the $@!& out of it.
I think I found a better solution: an aerosol can of expanding foam insulation would quickly cover it through any metal grate. Once the foam dries, it would muffle the sound and it's really hard to pry it off
*NOTE* I have wimpy $15 Altec Lansing desktop speakers that were turned almost all the way down for late night WoW - one more little twist down and they would in fact be OFF. I have seen a good number of loud bands in concert, sometimes right in front of the speakers.
"Cheeze it!" - Bender
kids, just go out at night and smash the things. the adults won't notice that they aren't working!
I remember hearing once that kids were using these ultrasonic sounds as ring tones, so they could text each other exam questions, and their teachers would have no idea this was going on. if this isn't true, then kids should start doing this!
this can easily go both ways.
kids can hear what adults cant.
use this to take advantage of old people.
its only fair!
-I only code in BASIC.-
You need to set the sample rate to not less than 50kHz since the sample rate has to be twice, or more, the frequency you wish to play. As a practical matter for consumer gear this means you need to have a soundcard that can do 88.2kHz or 96kHz output, you need to have it set to do so, and you need to generate the tone at that sample rate. If you tell it to generate a 25,000Hz tone in its default 44.1kHz mode, you get a somewhat irregular wave at 20,000Hz.
It's much simpler and more humane to simply play classical music kinda loud.
Also, I'm 36 and I can hear all kinds of ultra high pitched stuff. So they're driving me and my money away, too.
expandfairuse.org
earplugs.
The whole reason that there is an outcry against this is because it isn't targeted at criminals but at young people. As for going from that to your other assertions - seems to me dodgy at best. I don't want to live in a police state, but that doesn't mean I don't support the rule of law and personal responsibility. Who are these people defending themselves from - young people? This kind of attitude is as indicative of a "nightmare dystopia" as anything.
Finally, this is noise-pollution, nothing more. Imagine how these shop-owners would feel if I was next door and had my guitar amp cranking - I bet they'd be calling the cops.
Just another reason to be thankful I am hearing impaired...
The article in The Times is now out of date. The Government later announced that there would be no plans to ban the "mosquito" devices. Probably nothing to do with the public reaction to their banning which was overwhelmingly in favour of the devices. See the BBC message board for some reaction. http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&forumID=4272&edition=1&ttl=20080215083504&#paginator/
We have real problems in the UK of violent teenage gangs and feral youths who hang around in packs causing problems. I should know I see these gangs every day. Many people won't leave their homes because of these "children". Years of namby pamby liberal Labour government and lax parenting skills in a rapidly breeding underclass has led to all these young thugs. I fully support placing as many of these devices around as possible. While it's true that it's unfair to people who are not causing trouble they are already the minority.
Talk about noise that drives people off! What they are getting is Karma and nothing more. They should quit their bitching. At least prior generations knew what real musical talent was, even if they disagreed on who had it. This is not even close.
Most of your speakers are not going to reproduce much above maybe 16kHz, even if the electronic circuitry does. And even if the audio format allowed it. (Why didn't they use .WAV? The files would still have been small enough for a short beep.)
You would have to play this back through some pretty high-fidelity speakers. (And NOT those $9.95 earbud things that claim a 20kHz response. Yeah right. Do you really know what a decibel is?)
They have been trying this in the U.S., too, with somewhat less success. Fearmongering, that is. Yet it has still been nastily effective. We should aim our animosity against those who use such techniques, rather than against those they would turn us against.
INTELLIGENTLY PRESENTED UNTRUTHS NEED REBUTTAL. Stupid generalizations require that people ignore them.
Stupid generalizations are not dangerous. Intelligent untruths are.
I was very, very tempted to ignore you.
Most people, not just children, are inconsiderate, miles away from selfless, and just plain don't have the mental propensity to form constructive thoughts.
Issues like this go way beyond troubled adolescent children to pretty much all of society. (Whichever society that may be) I honestly can't think of an effective way to help that doesn't involve fire. I've tried being kind and considerate in the hopes that others will respond in kind, but often enough I just get stared down like I was some kind of freakin' pedophile. These mosquitoes are just the retard's way of dealing with the retarded and do nobody absolutely any good.
Problems such as these do nothing but reinforce my reclusive and introverted nature. People need to hold themselves to a higher standard, and hold others to it as well. Currently, so many people suffer from what I've heard termed as the bigotry of low expectations. If you see someone being rude and inconsiderate, find a way to let them know that they're being douchebags. I think you'll find that for the most part, they feel stupid and worthless when you inform them -- as they bloody well should.
I wholeheartedly concur! I too am growing tired with the cowardly surveillance society we live in. I would mod you to heaven if I could... :)
BATTLE ROYALE :-)
seriously though, as a UK resident, the current climate of kids thinking they're above the law is disgusting. they can hit you and it's fine, you hit back and you're done for assault and your life will thereon in be a misery. Many are talking about bringing back National Service to teach some discipline and self respect. How can you respect anyone else if you don't respect yourselves enough not to be a complete nuisance?
Ok, a couple of points;
"the Children's Commissioner for England appointed to represent the views of the country's 11 million children"
So the kids don't want something that has been designed to stop them doing things they are not supposed to be doing, wow, revelation. So does this mean that burglars can now get locks and gates removed because it stops them doing what they want.
"These devices are indiscriminate and target all children and young people"
So because it doesn't target only blacks or asians it's a problem then? These devices aren't left on all the time, they are used at night and on demand to disperse congregating hoards of little retarded chav bastards. If they were active 24/7 then they wouldn't be used by shops as it would drive away a large part of their business.
This country is going to shit, fast, it's no wonder everyone is leaving.
Biomech
You know, have you thought about one thing: Does these kids have a place do go?
Where excactly are they supposed to be? Mesmerized in front of a TV? Playing violent computer games? What life are they being offered?
This sounds exactly like failure of teenage clubhouses and free/sports areas in your neighbourhood. Any zone they mightve used, is probably linked to fees which these kids have no way to pay. The rest is occupied by neighbourhood and commercial sites.
Do any of the people in your neighbourhood speak to eachother? Like, you are pretty many people, and can deal with most _any_ problem in your neighbourhood if you want to. But if nothings happening, this is a symptom nobody is dealing with it. YOU dont have to go in front of the teens, weve given braincells to think with, you just have to gather people and agree on some things..
This is a classic failure of community in your area, and the kids are just the symptom of the real problem. Yes, theyre asses, but its because theyre forced to live in a shit community that really doesnt care.
There is possibility of doing wonderful things there.. for those with their eyes open.
And freedom of religion. The mosquito sound is us old peoples anthem for our old people religion.
Now get off my lawn you whipper snappers! *shakes fists*
These devices are only used to disperse gangs which have already accumulated and who are causing trouble.
They are not emitting this sound on a constant basis, and are just fired for very short periods of time as required.
As many others have said, the UK has a very serious problem with gangs of youths causing trouble, and we're not just talking a little petty crime, there have been a number of recent cases where individuals, often adults, have actually being kicked to death or stabbed by such groups. In some areas, entire communities will not leave their homes at night, because the streets aren't safe. We're not just talking about the stereotypical elderly couple here, we're talking about regular families, it really is that bad.
It's a similar situation in shopping centres and other retail areas, where these groups of what are essentially just kids, are either actively or just by their presence stopping people from entering shops, and it is these shops who are investing in the devices. If it weren't such a major problem (and it is) and they weren't generally very effective (which they) then you could guarantee that people wouldn't be spending money on them to protect their property and business, which is actually all they are doing here. The devices are fixed in position, and people aren't just wandering around finding groups to disperse.
Many of the recordings people are listening to on the web have been processed to make them audiable to pretty much everyone. The intention is to give people an idea what it sounds like to kids, I doubt any of the the people commenting on the sound itself have every actually heard it "live" as it were. There is plenty of evidence that in the vast majority of people, by the age of around 25 their hearing has deteriorated to the extent that they cannot hear this, or if they can, it's more of a background noise that a serious annoyance. Not everyone's hearing deteriorates at the same rate, but 25 is apparently the average age for people to no longer find it annoying, but of course some 20 years olds won't be able to hear it properly, and there will be people in their 30s for whom it will be irritating.
Granted, the long term causes of these issues need to be addressed, but the fact remains that these gangs of "young people" are causing criminal damage and are at best a serious concern and in some cases a genuine threat to the safety and liberties of regular members of the public. When people talk about the rights of children, they always think of the relatively innocent ones, the ones who are probably more like we were when we were young (and this is an image that those who are anti-Mosquito are trying to foster) but the truth of the matter is that the kids this device is being used on, have little in common with the British kids of the 80s. They are the sort who have no regard for other people's property or civil rights. They are the sort for whom a night out involves underage binge drinking and for whom violent behaviour is part of the fun, so forget about being idealistic, and taking the moral high ground here. You'll notice that those people who have posted who actually live in the UK are supporting the use of this device. There's a reason for this.
I should also point out that in response to this campaign, the British Government said a couple of days ago that they will not be banning the use of the Mosquito. There is overwhelming public support for the devices, because there is a genuine need for them. I suspect a good percentage of the people who are adding their voice to the supposed "public outcry" about their use (and in truth it's a very, very small number of people relative to the population) are not fully aware of the manner and situations in which these devices are actually used. From some of the nonsense I've seen written (and I don't particularly mean here on Slashdot) that certainly seems to be the case.
Quit whining about this wonderful piece of technology. Sometimes you just need to break up a group of children, and this is a perfect device for doing it with. Also there is a real problem with threatening groups of kids, particularly around shops. This is exactly the solution we need.
Okay, next up a device which only causes discomfort to black people, then one which only causes discomfort to women. Research on the device that only causes discomfort to Buddhists is currently stalled...
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
No one is going to call for a ban on speakers but it's easy to outlaw a particular use that causes real physical harm to people. It hurts the ears of anyone with ears good enough to hear the sound. You can think of it as a booby trap and those are repulsive no matter how they are made. It also teaches troubled youth that force is the way to solve problems.
There's not even a good business case for this. Besides hoodlums, the device will drive off mothers with babies who are your best customers. When they find out about these devices those moms are going to be very angry. Stores dumb enough to have bought these things would do well to discretely dismantle them and apologize profusely to anyone who asks about them.
The only thing shameful is wishing others harm. That's why you are not supposed to like the victims of this box - they supposedly hurt people and make life unpleasant. It would be better to have reasonable policing to discourage actual crime.
A reasonable society will quickly outlaw or set energy limits for these nasty devices and they may already be illegal. It's already against the law to make yourself a nuisance with noise or to burst someone's ear drums by other means.
"This is a technological device, and you can't outlaw it !", right ? It's a "hack", and cool. Only it affects many people who read this site, as opposed to (mostly) rich people, like authors.
If I was a total, complete fuckwit. Trebuchets are "cool", but I bet you'd take a dim view if I used one to throw boulders weighing 200 kilos into your house.
In other words: yes the tech might be cool, but there are very uncool uses for said tech. Which is the point of the article - fuckwit.
In Buddhism, there is no good karma.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
To repel rowdy young ruffians, just pipe in classical music. You don't need to inflict
suffering on anyone's eardrums -- just offer them something they'll find totally uncool.
Then, leaving and avoiding such places feels like a victory to them. They'll even tell
their young ruffian friends how horribly unbearable the music is, and you'll be spared
even more of them as word spreads.
Normal people, including babies, don't mind the classical music at all!
Perhaps the fellow who thinks it's ok to torture babies to protect himself against
dangerous teenagers can get a job with the Bush administration.
Hide all sigs: Click HELP+Prefs (top), VIEWING (last on right), DISABLE SIGS (3rd on left) and SAVE (hidden at bottom).
For the record, I'm 34 and I can here them, so can my 4 kids who are too young to do anything wrong. Yes a married geek with kids.
Our local shop has speakers up and has an alternative solution to the problem, they play classical music.
Its just not cool to hang out there any more, so they have moved on else where.
I fear I have wasted my youth.
Ok, my age group is what they are aimed at, and I live near one. After about 2 weeks I barley notice it and after a month or so I had to actually try to hear it. These things are needed, in some places especially. At night sometimes I cant even walk down the street in my small town without the risk of some kid pulling a knife on me, just because I have long hair or such. As for young babies, I do think that its unfair for them and that yes if their parent have bad hearing they won't realize whats wrong, that said, I know a lot of parents won't go to certain places where these happen to be simply because of kids. And yes I am aware that my grammar properly suck balls, I'm the nerd, my girlfriend is the grammar queen.
and apparently I can't spel hear ither.
.. fuck the children.
They are practically untouchable, and they know it. Years of 'knowing their rights' has seen to that, as does the change in policing from proactive to reactive, all in the name of measurable (read spinnable) results.
What you see here is an unintended result of criminal justice policy gone wrong over many years. Is it legal, and a short-term solution; something that breaking the little criminals' legs, sterilising their parents and removing them from access to any state benefits is not.
where I can get one of these for my lawn?
My local (Merseyside) papers made a lot of noise (ho ho!) some months ago when it was announced that a series of devices would be installed at petrol stations and other 'identified troublespots'. I wrote to a series of local MPs (some who had commented in the papers and some who hadn't) about their views on the device, asking how they would define such a device, how familiar they are with its function and effects and whether they would supporting a trial run of device installations in my local area. None of the bastards replied. And now I get their damn party 'newsletter' through my letterbox every month.
The parent's not trolling - "uncool" music is indeed used to deter antisocial behaviour by young people. the effect is well known http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4154711.stm. Classical music is played in certain London Underground stations in part for this reason. http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3284419.ece
...when kids started using it as a ringtone so they could txt each other during school without the teacher hearing...?
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Thatcher said there is no such thing as society. If true, there is no such thing as anti-social behaviour. She also said Britain was safe in Blair's hands.
Twenty-odd years ago, during the height of the boombox, I read a piece in Philly's weekly paper by a guy who lived with his wife on the second floor, over a corner. Some local kids had started hanging out on the corner, and cranked the boombox UP. He was about to yell out the window, when his wife stopped him.
Then they opened their windows, put their full-sized stereo speakers in the windows, and cranked UP the opera.
Kids last seen walking away, waving fists...
mark
Would it be illegal to own and operate a device designed to seek out the exact location of such annoyance devices as a counter-measure. Once you know where the things are located, you could either disable/destroy the thing discreetly (as the owner probably can't *hear* it working or isn't generally close enough to observe the results), or find someone in law enforcement that can clearly hear it and see the amplifier itself as grounds enough for issuing a charge for disturbing the piece. (A follow-up check for compliance could result in specific harassment charges and even arrests.)
After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
8==8 Bones 8==8
I suspect that this strategy might backfire on them. I'm a female in my 40's, and have had my hearing tested extensively, and my hearing in that range is quite good. From my ear specialist's views, and what is expressed on the vestibular forums, high frequency hearing loss is most likely in males. As females do more shopping, unless this just being used at the Bass Pro shop, they will find their overall business dropping. Plus, if you think about how many people shop with children in tow, this will have the consequence of getting babies and small children all riled up, as the younger you are, the sensitive the high frequency hearing.
Such as the sound of a chalk scratching the blackboard, or cutting a ceremic plate with a metal knife.
Unfortunately, many teenagers are annoyed by these sounds too, and only toddlers seem to enjoy that.
I once had a signature.
I have a friend who is 30 and he still can hear these high pitched noises. He's a teacher and has busted tons of students who used those high pitched ringtones to know when an incoming text message was received. I'm sure there's a big number of adults who are trying to conduct business who would be affected by this as well.
Can I bum a sig?
they just hang around a couple of hundred yards away from the arcade where the thing's sited.
Some rocket scientist put a device that repels teenagers next to an arcade? Brilliant!
Crank those high frequencies. Let 'em suffer at the trashup/lash-up/mashup ... whatever. It's better music than they're used to hearing.
Try this in reverse, someone engineer a device that bugs the hell out of senior citizens (for the purpose of, say, keeping them out of self-checkout lines at the grocery store) and see how well that goes over. I understand some business want to drive off adolescents, but maybe they should consider trying to enforce local ordinances against loitering if they exist.
Oh please I knew from reading the title that this article would congeal comments of "Wah! Bad parents!". Have you ever stopped to think why the parents are so bad?
I had this debate a few days ago with a 72 year old man. I'm only 21 for the record. We were discussing a group of school children who were maybe 12 or 13 on the bus sitting down while this man and another old woman were standing. The point that I hit is how can you blame the parents when we are all the cause for their failing. Let me explain, most of us are working longer hours, kids are in daycare/school/babysitter, your mortgage just keeps growing, tax and inflation woes worrying you, savings disappearing, credit card debt and other factors. Most people with an ounce of sense or ability to earn money aren't having kids. Almost all the kids are coming out of the lowest common denominator multiplied by itself, not all, but by far the great majority. We are creating our own problem and unfortunately economics is to blame. This isn't just happening on the village level it's happening en masse in most established, post-industrial countries. We have a problem where parents can't be parents. This is the cause and unless either the middle/upper class couples start having children again or life becomes less stressful it's not going to get any better.It goes deeper than that though. I remember the key cause for generation and legal conflict from teenagers when I was one was boredom. I wasn't your generic geek who hid from everyone else at school during my teenage years, that is not to say I didn't have a horrible time at school it is just to say I associated with people most geeks would avoid. Most of us are living in suburbs or satellite towns, these are horrible breeding grounds for boredom. Kids are dead bored, the fact there is nothing to do nearby except mill with friends is the resultant of this. People get violent and abusive, both to themselves and others, when they are bored. Never underestimate the power of environmental factors on people.You argument of children's world being one of survival of the fittest is looking through the Fox News camera. You're being overly dramatic and probably ignorant of your own upbringing. Childhood is a microcosm of the larger society around them, if you wonder why they fight so much and have pecking orders and whatnot it is because the rest of us live in such an environment as well. Kids forming groups, gangs or whatever derogatory slang you want to use are merely living out the wider societies states and nations metaphors to a scale. If you want to point the finger at someone state with yourself and why you continue to live in such an inhumane, yet intrinsically human manor.
Am I the only one who thinks that if a handful of businesses within a small area install these then their effects might bleed-over? What if there's a business a block from a child day-care? What about noise pollution? If I lived near one of these (I'm in my 20s and can hear it fine) I would be calling the cops about it driving me nuts. Back to the range question though, in a downtown location with lots to echo off of how far would this sound travel? Would it possibly black-out an entire area? What about kids travelling nearby to these, say on their way to school? Perhaps if they could very tightly focus the sound and ensure that it disipates within the landowner's property it could be acceptable, but as is it sounds as though this would be like my grandmother sprinkling mothballs around her entire block just to keep mice out of her basement closet.
Kids will just turn up their IPods and render those neurotic baby-boomer tax dollars and city counsel meetings irrelevant. Self-interest wins in decibels these days. Politically, socially, etc.
While it's true that it's unfair to people who are not causing trouble they are already the minority.
So screw 'em?
"In a society under the forms of which the stronger faction can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the violence of the stronger" - James Madison
With credit to Massad Ayoob for his insightfulness -
You made a mistake by not helping this guy. You needed to communicate with him. You needed to ask him a deep, existential question that would cause him to question and reassess his actions, attitudes, and core beliefs in light of the impact he is having on the world and of the impact the world can have on him. You needed to ask him a question that would help him onto the path of nonviolent enlightenment.
Sometimes you can even ask such a question without using any words at all.
A question like -
"You don't really want me to shoot you in the face with this .38, do you?"
Oh, wait. You're in the UK.
Never mind...
If people would just quit having sex there wouldn't be any problems with unruly children. Within about 70 years a lot of other problems would disappear as well.
You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
And marketing.
Treat it just like any other loud "music". If it's annoying people outside of the owner's property then let them file a complaint.
If I want to use a lightning generator on my front porch to disuade solicitors and it won't zap anyone on the street then tough luck. If I do zap someone, i'm on the hook for it.
Why is that so complicated?
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
If you think that the last few decades were the first time that poor people have become belligerent and violent then you must be learning your history from cartoons. Adolescents have always caused problems. The old have always complained about them. The poor have always wanted more (and so have the rich) and they have always blamed the rich for making it more difficult for them to get it (and often, they've been right). If you want to understand this, there is only one place to start:
Learn more history.
This situation is not unique. The last few decades have seen loads of drastic changes in human life, but not because adolescents are rebellious or poor people are resorting to violence. This suggests that you've been taught worthless "history indoctrination" whereby the current generation of middle-aged people portrays the time of their youth as perfect and ideal while the current state of affairs is headed toward Armageddon. Conservatives then sell this ideal to the populous, making them believe that there was a time when people didn't murder other people just because they had a few bucks or schillings or spare cowrie shells. People who actually have a clue about history have seen this pattern in every generation they have looked at, from today's Baby Boomers to the ancient Greeks and even early Egyptians. This same pattern can even be found in isolated jungle tribes which don't have any of the causes you might like to blame this on.
This is human nature. Perhaps that's why people don't want to believe it. They hate being wrong. They hate growing old. They hate the idea that someone else's point of view might be worth as much as theirs.
I have no love for punks who hang around only to cause problems. However, everything I've seen and read suggests that the way to fix this is to treat the young/poor/insert-nogoodnick-group-here as humans rather than someone who is less important than you. In most cases, the reason they don't respect others because others don't respect them.
the solution we employ for getting rid of unwanted loitering teens is to blast out country/western music.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
Don't we have dog whistles? Are we comparing teen-agers to DOGS? I mean, I am fucking 21 and I can hear that sound! Is it supposed to solve any problems to humiliate teen-agers? This has got to be THE stupidest - not to mention snobby - idea I've ever heard of.
I'm 35.
I'm certain that someone down the next street from me has one of these devices, I can hear it and it's loud.
While hearing does degrade over time, for many people (especially those who've not abused their hearing) they can hear these frequencies well past their youth.
These devices are just as antisocial as playing, say, heavy metal loudly on the street. If I were a neighbour, I'd ask politely for the device to be turned off or turned down. If, after a couple of requests, this was not done, I'd do exactly the same as if a neighbour was playing loud unpleasant music - file a complaint.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Isn't this age discrimination? Do they have such a concept in UK law?
LSU cites http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/HearingRange.html/ some good sources supporting a claim that human hearing extends to "around" 23KHz.
And as andecdotal counterpoint to your anecdote: when Bethesda Naval Medical Center gave me a physical at 18 my hearing tested (yes, in an isolating booth) as working up through (inclusive) 24KHz -- the auditory specialist stopped testing at that point.
With cited sources identifying human hearing at least up to 23KHz it doesn't seem a big stretch to posit that there may be individuals with hearing up to 25KHz.
This is why we need to legalize firearms. Next time those faggots come up, just pull out a Glock and shoot em all. Fucking kids.
That is what I imagined but it's worse than that. It won't just happen once, it will happen again and again. The first few times, most moms will give up and go home. After a while, they will either give up the store or stay there despite the baby crying. Eventually the mom will quit going. If she ever hears about these devices .... Kaboom! Real anger. Most will never go to the guilty store again and many will give a lot of innocent clerks a piece of their mind. Anything that looks like these devices, including fire alarms is going to be vandalized by people no one would suspect of such behavior.
Some people, even hearing impaired people who should know better don't think of this because they are so busy gloating about the pain they can inflict on people they don't like:
Statements like this are going to make moms even angrier. It is all very sad and stupid.
Great plan.
Because the adult thing to do when people you don't like are nearby is to pump up your amp and play out a really loud sound until they leave? Right?
Next up:
Replacing all ramps and lifts with extra-steep stairs to keep the elderly etc. away.
Installing emitters in the HVAC that put a smell that only women can smell.
"When they came for the children, I did not speak because I was not a child."
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
If your going to ban a note ban C#
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
What are you blathering about? I guess you enjoy any chance you can get to point out supposed double standards on slashdot (what a strange hobby), but you don't need double standards to reason this one through. Yes it is a technological device and should most certainly not be outlawed altogether (duh). THE ABUSE OF IT in public places, yes, there might be an argument to outlaw that (the abuse thereof, not the ownership).
If I don't want kids on my lawn, I certainly don't to be 'harmonising' with children anyway, it should be my right to use this on my private property as long as I don't blast the neighbours.
This is just a device that makes a noise. It should be treated legally the same as any other device that makes a noise (i.e. not be banned). It's not special. The fact that only some people can hear it is irrelevant to the ethics therein. Making a noise with this is ethically like making a noise with any other device. We don't ban stereos but you can limit their abuse.
Actually, any hearing test on a PC (assuming youre not a decked out audio engineer) is highly inaccurate.
Trying playing a sweep from 14khz-22khz. Can you hear the whole thing? If so, its more likely that your machine cant accurately reproduce high frequencies.
I have played a sweep on numerous high end, new machines and all of them began producing erroneous and completely audible tones from ~15-16khz on.
The only setups that did produce accurate sweeps were my home stereo, and a PC using an edirol external card. So unless you've dumped extra cash for the sole purpose of quality sound, chances are its the computer crapping out.
Flash Forward, 2009 - News Headline: President McCain has denied any wrongdoing. He has repeated stated that his campaign was not in any way involved in installation of the Mosquito sound devices discovered at thousands of polling places across the country. House Democrats are calling for an investigation into the affect on the 2009 presidential election.
I'm nearly 50, and can still hear into the 40 KHz range. Yes, it's hard to test this with stuff around the house. But there are still stores with ultrasonic systems (anti theft, i suppose) that i avoid.
My point is that there is variation. It's a belle curve. While i'm average for many things, i'm not average for everything. No one is. Most people lose higher frequency hearing as they age. Perhaps i have, if so it's not been enough.
Before you go off the deep end and say "that's impossible", consider the limits of hearing. Sounds vibrate a little disk in your ear. The softest sounds detectable move that little disk less than the diameter of an atom. It's hard to imagine.
So, i hear "teen age ringtones" and stuff.
-- Stephen.
I wish I had a dime for every petty martinet who thinks they've had a good idea for solving imperceptible problems. Oh, wait... Iraq... WMDs, yellow cake... right! I wish I had that $50 trillion dollars back, too.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
It appears that you are what my sports teacher used to describe as "a fucking soft bastard".
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I was played that infernal noise, and it really pissed me off. Good for him, I hope he succeeds.
I imagine this is redundant by now. what the hell, I've got karma to burn.
How dare you be so modest!! You conceited bastard!!
Now I'll know for sure if girls I take home are 18.
Oh wait, I'm a geek, girls don't let me take them home.
Gotcha. In the U.S., at least in my jurisdiction, there would also be a court inquiry but it would be a mere formality. If someone's waving an axe, they're a deadly threat. I can't imagine anyone questioning that you'd be justified in shooting them. Same in the UK? Or not?