Mossberg Reviews the Lenovo X300 Vs. MacBook Air

genji256 writes "Adding to his first impressions, Walt Mossberg has published a full review of the soon-to-come Lenovo X300. As a bottom line he 'recommends the X300 for road warriors without hesitation, provided they can live with its two biggest downsides: a relatively paltry file-storage capacity and a hefty price tag.' Gizmodo lists all the comparisons with the MacBook Air that Walt inevitably makes. Final score: it's a tie, though certain points are arguable ('Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard. Winner: MacBook Air')."

Comments

Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

I notice on the Amazon listing for the Macbook Air that there are nothing but five-star reviews. Is it really that good, or are they just shills? It's a bit odd that a review never appeared here on Slashdot.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to add: the initial Slashdot story announcing the product was hardly a "review". If you have a Macbook Air, why not post a review on the Firehose and post a link to your review as a reply to this comment?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Dark-Dx]

I'm sure the Air is not a 5-star product, let's admit it, they could have made it 0,5inch thicker and put some ports in that thing. I'll stay with my M1330 thanks.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[2nd Post!]

What? They already did, it's called a MacBook. Prices are roughly comparable though the MacBook is slightly heavier.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

12" MacBook anyone..?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[moderatorrater]

Who's going to buy the Macbook air except for those predisposed to love it? It's a niche product from a company that makes very good products if you're in their customer base. The lack of an optical drive and most of the standard ports are going to sow enough doubt that those who aren't already in love with the company are going to walk away. That's especially true for how new the product is; give it some time to mature and for word of mouth to get out, and you'll get more balanced views.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[harlows_monkeys]

You aren't understanding the market for the Air. It's a niche laptop. A perfect example was given on a recent episode of TWiT, where most of the panelists were not impressed with the Air, but one of them loved it. He is a prolific writer, and when he wants to spend an hour sitting on the couch, say, watching TV, he's still writing. With a regular laptop, that is awkward, as they are hot and heavy when actually used as a laptop computer.

And with a small machine, like his Vaio (or with a machine like an Asus EEE), you've got a small screen and a small keyboard. He can go for 10 minutes or so, but it is just too painful to write for hours on those. Those also have horrible battery life.

The Air, he said, is perfect here. It is light enough and cool enough that he can use it on his lap on the couch for as long as he wants, but he has a decent sizes, beautiful screen, and a good keyboard, and good battery life.

For the niche market of people who write incessantly and don't want to deal with a tiny pain-inducing keyboard and small screen in order to write everywhere they go, it is a winner. And there will be other niche markets like that, where everything comes together with it and it is a 5 star laptop for those people. For people who don't fit into one of those niches, it won't be a good choice.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[arb phd slp]

I didn't see the point of the Air when I first saw it, but once I got thinking about it, I realized that it's just not meant for me. My wife has a G4 iBook and she never leaves the house with it. She'd find the Air perfect, except that it costs about $700 more than her iBook did.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[wish bot]

The reason why few people at Slashdot think the Air is worth the price, is...well...they're just not the target market. When you're flying thousands of k's a week around the world and _every single gram is an extra pain in the arse_ - and all you really need to get your work done is web access/email/some other low power app then the Air is perfect. You don't want extra batteries, DVD drives, mice, etc, because all that is 1) extra crap you need to take, and 2) extra weight which a pain.

I know some people still won't get it, but when you're in a position like that there is *very little* out there that is suitable, and the Air is the best there is. I'm speaking from the voice of experience here, but I'm still not going to get an Air - yet.. I still need something slightly more powerful for the things I do, but when the Air gets improved to the specs I need, I'll be all over it in a flash. I'm not holding my breath on that one though.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[prestomation]

I have a Dell Vostro 15" C2D with a Geforce 8600M. It's a pretty beastly machine and I use it on my lap all the time. There's a little vent on the side which spews fairly hot air when the card is cranking(games), but even then it's not getting to my lap. I also get over 3hours on the standard battery.

I have a friend with a tiger direct special athlon machine, it seems nice, but I can barely touch the keyboard, it's so damn hot! I definitly wouldn't use that on my crotch.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[AvitarX]

I am not convinced by that story though.

My wife has a Presario V3000. It cost less than $800 (I actually think it was 650, but may of been 750)over a year ago. It is about 5 lbs, doesn't get too hot, has a full keyboard, extra ports, and a DVD player.

It is more flimsily made than the two and a half times as expensive Mac Book Air, but it has help up fairly well to daily use.

The overall design is quite attractive too. I don't know why someone would buy a cramped Vaio, if an entry level Compaq can be cool, light, and have a full keyboard, there are bound to be others too.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Sancho]

You can always figure out which ones are affected by the Jobsian Reality Distortion Field.

The cheapest Macbook Air is $1799. The cheapest Macbook with an extra 1GB of RAM (to bring it up to the 2GB that the Air has) is $1249. I don't consider that even remotely "comparable."

Of course it's hard to make a fair comparison. That extra $450 gets you 400mhz less, no optical drive, and fewer ports.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

With a regular laptop, that is awkward, as they are hot and heavy when actually used as a laptop computer.

Bloody hell! I know this is slashdot but even most slashdotters would call a guy who can't handle the weight of any modern laptop on his lap a wuss!!! I use my laptop for flight simulation among many other things so good graphics is a must. My last two machines have been Dell (a 9300 and a 9400....not quite gaming machines but not as pricey and good enough for flight sim). I've had one of these glued to my lap for my hour long commute each way to work for the last couple of years. As for heat, wear thicker pants or put something between you and the laptop.

I've heard some damn stupid excuses for liking these "niche" machines but "its too heavy for my lap" just takes the cake. (Good reasons for slim or portable would be weight and size restrictions for air travel, not owww my poor lap it hurts after 3 minutes).

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

I cringe at the very thought of a writer using the crappy keys on every laptop I've ever touched. Work gave me a Microsoft Natural 4000, and it's the most comfortable I've used. I'd pay real money for a laptop that had one built in, including the split and the hump. It'd be as big as a stack of three Airs, but I don't care, it'll still fit in my pack and I could finally stand to use it.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[palegray.net]

I don't know why someone would buy a cramped Vaio I've become convinced that people only by the Vaio because they consider it a "status" item. Lord only knows why when there are (and have been for a long time) better products on the market.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Saint Fnordius]

Of course, the fact that it's more expensive to make things lighter and smaller doesn't register, nor the metal versus polycarbonate case. Or other little things like the automatic adjustment to meet ambient lighting conditions, or the quality of the screen...

The price of the MacBook Air doesn't surprise me. To make something that thin and yet so sturdy takes a lot of R&D, a lot of precision engineering that the more basic MacBook doesn't require.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[pipatron]

Have you tried the thinkpad series? Check out the section about the keyboard in the reviews.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

It makes sense: Much of the criticism of the MacBook Air are of it's clearly advertised lack of big features (quite literally). Those that have decided that these issues don't affect them are left with what appears to be an excellent laptop (for its intended market).

To put it another way: It's not like people are buying them, later realizing that they lack an optical drive, then making sure they let people know by posting a harsh review.

Many people have commented on how much better the keyboard and screen are compared to other current comparable Macs. Add in the "world first" slim design and a goodie such as iPhone-like gesture support on the trackpad, then keep in mind that there isn't really another laptop with a similar feature-set and design to compare it to (point out its deficiencies), and you have a product that can seem almost perfect -- worth 5 stars.

Speaking of all this MacBook Air stuff, I managed to get a glimpse of one in a store (a non-Apple store in NZ). Unfortunately, it was lid-down and locked in a display case (unlike the other laptops), and the staff were too busy with real customers to let some poor, drooling nerd have a grope around with it.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Saint Fnordius]

Ah, so comfort has no value to you, gotcha. The idea that weight and warmth could be a distraction that slows down work must also be novel to you. But hey, your needs are different than mine, so what the heck. I spend most of my time at work making web sites, and even in my free time I use my PowerBook for writing. But it's better to just accept this is not a binary, that the weight factor is "less annoying" and not "make or break".

I guess it's just a question of whether ergonomics are important for you or not. Some people choose BMW over GM due to the design and ergonomics, so why not accept that the same principle applies to computers?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

Comfort? Fucking hell. Is 2 kg and a bit of warmth on your lap really THAT uncomfortable??? Its not like your Macbook is weightless anyway. Nor does my laptop always run hot. If all I'm doing nothing but word processing it's not particularly warm. I don't know if you've even tried a heavier laptop but it's not even something I notice let alone a comfort issue. In other words the weight and heat doesn't bother me at all. I'd much rather have something useful for a wide range of activities than just for writing, at the cost of that extra kilogram.

Most people choose BMW as a status symbol. Same with these Macbooks. I've seen nothing to convince me they're better. Not one thing.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[hab136]

I'd pay real money for a laptop that had one built in, including the split and the hump. It'd be as big as a stack of three Airs, but I don't care, it'll still fit in my pack and I could finally stand to use it

If you don't care about the space, why not carry the external keyboard with you?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[hab136]

In other words the weight and heat doesn't bother me at all.

I want to say that there's a difference between "not uncomfortable" and "comfortable". Straight out of college I had a hand-me-down mattress which worked fine and was not uncomfortable. Later in life when I was doing well I bought a new one for about $800, and the difference was incredible. Lying in bed was actually pleasurable instead of just "not uncomfortable".

uncomfortable - tolerable/not uncomfortable - comfortable

Anyways, products can be judged on a lot of things:
- comfort
- style/fashion (status symbol)
- performance
- compatibility
- price

Many Slashdotters regard the first two as foolish metrics, but outside of computerland, they're often the determining ones.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, given what they had to do to make the MBA, the price isn't too surprising. But 44% higher isn't "roughly comparable"!

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Eunuchswear]

Then you've never tried carrying one.

Please name a better product - (please note that nothing that is heavier counts as a better product).

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

Give me function over form any day, but I still like style and comfort. I just disagree with you about weight being an issue and heat is a definite non-issue if you're just word processing.

In any case making something white and round, or thin enough to fit in a folder, or translucent so you can see the circuit board is not called style. It's called a gimmick.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[node 3]

Dude, if you're getting modded down "troll" or "flamebait" enough to inspire your sig, maybe it's because your posts are caustic.

Comfort? Fucking hell. Is 2 kg and a bit of warmth on your lap really THAT uncomfortable??? As for the actual topic, those seemingly miniscule differences in weight and thickness and temperature really do make a difference. Think about how, on a hot day, different a thin t-shirt and a thick t-shirt feel. Surely, the weight and the temperature differences are so minimal that "even most slashdotters would call a guy who can't handle [it] a wuss!!!" But that doesn't mean one is more comfortable (and therefore, all else remaining equal, more desirable) than the other.

In other words, it's not about being able to "handle it", but about preferring one over the other.

As far as weight is concerned, when I'm on the couch with my MacBook on my lap, it's not so heavy that I wish it were lighter. But when it comes time to set the MacBook aside (e.g. to get up) the weight is noticeable. Not so heavy that I have difficulty setting the MacBook aside, but heavy enough that I notice the action. The MacBook Air seems light enough that when it comes time to set it aside, I *won't* notice it.

You sound like a PC user, so you are probably used to constantly noticing your computer. The Mac experience is generally one of *not* noticing your computer, so those few times when it's noticed, it can be annoying (this is partly why, I think, Macs are so design-oriented, so that when you notice them physically, the experience is more enjoyable than it would be otherwise).

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[palegray.net]

I have carried one, a company machine that was issued to me for field work. It's not a matter of specifying a "better" laptop, either. It's simply that in my opinion nothing about the Vaio makes it worth the price. Their cheapest laptop weighs 6.2 pounds and costs USD $949. Their higher end machines (such as the ultra-portable UX) cost as much as USD $2,400. It's absolutely not worth it to me to pay that much money for less weight. My arm isn't going to fall off flying across the country with any modern laptop.

There's a reason Sony's marketing site for the Vaio series is www.sonystyle.com.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[jedie]

You sound like a PC user, so you are probably used to constantly noticing your computer. The Mac experience is generally one of *not* noticing your computer, so those few times when it's noticed, it can be annoying (this is partly why, I think, Macs are so design-oriented, so that when you notice them physically, the experience is more enjoyable than it would be otherwise). W T F? it's statements like these that keep me from switching to mac

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[node 3]

W T F? it's statements like these that keep me from switching to mac That's alright. Some people like noticing their computers.

I'll give you a small (and relatively random) example. The Caps Lock key on all new Macs has a feature such that it won't toggle if you accidentally hit it. PCs don't do this, and sometimes (not terribly often, but now and then, and it's definitely happened to all of us) your text will be aLL CAPS AFTER TYPING AN A. No big deal. It's easy to undo, just hit the Caps Lock key again and all is well.

The Mac (both the hardware and system software) is designed with countless little touches like this. After using a Mac for a while, at some point you notice it and think to yourself how *un*frustrating the computer is, sort of like how at some point you notice after you move away from the freeway that that background noise of traffic is gone.

Some people seem to need those little reminders that they're using a computer, just like some people find comfort in the sounds of traffic. You may be one of those people. Or you may just be uncomfortable with mushy, subjective, non-concrete metrics. A lot of geek-types are like that. They need everything to be easily measured and compared. Unfortunately, a large swath of human experience is not easily categorized. This makes it difficult for companies like HP and Microsoft to make products which truly appealing at a fundamentally human level.

It's this attention to the humanity of a product that made the iPod the success that it is, *even with the inferior feature-set as compared to other players at the time*.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[hab136]

Give me function over form any day, but I still like style and comfort. I just disagree with you about weight being an issue and heat is a definite non-issue if you're just word processing.

Agreed, we all have different tolerances and comfort zones.

In any case making something white and round, or thin enough to fit in a folder, or translucent so you can see the circuit board is not called style. It's called a gimmick.

Mini-skirts were a gimmick, now they're a style. Same could be said for those hideous rubber shoes - "crocs" (which I found the name by searching for "hideous rubber shoes" LOL). The RAZR was a gimmick - but now slim cellphones are stylish. Translucent computer cases were a gimmick the first time, but now are a big fashion in the PC "gearhead" community; just search for "case mods". A slim, rounded, thin laptop that is network-dependent is indeed a gimmick, because it's new. 5 years from now? It may just be another style.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Nursie]

"I don't know why someone would buy a cramped Vaio"

Are you talking about the TZ range?

Because the SZ is a thing of beauty. It's light, powerful, has (switchable) nvidia graphics and a far beeter keyboard than any comparably sized mac.

I can't wait to see what Sony do with the tech that has allowed Apple and Lenovo to come up with these little devices.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[kellyb9]

Prices are roughly comparable though the MacBook is slightly heavier. Yeah, they are comparable... they're both way to fucking expensive.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Sancho]

The AC made the point. Yeah, taking the quick jab at the lack of features weakened what I was saying, but I couldn't help it.

The poster who made the initial statement said that the Macbook and Macbook Air were roughly comparable in price. While such a statement is subjective, not many people would suggest that a $450 price difference or such a large percentage difference is really comparable at the price points we're discussing.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[kellyb9]

The price of the MacBook Air doesn't surprise me. Wow, someone is drinking the kool-aid. You seriously think that other companies aren't investing in the same kind of R&D? Maybe it's spread out across several vendors, but that should only make the price of IBM laptops MORE EXPENSIVE than Macs.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[mdwh2]

The Caps Lock key on all new Macs has a feature such that it won't toggle if you accidentally hit it And if you intentionally hit it?

I don't "notice" my computer either in the way that you describe, btw.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[2nd Post!]

I was comparing the MacBook to the Dell M1330, which only has 1 GB of RAM itself.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Zarf]

For the niche market of people who write incessantly and don't want to deal with a tiny pain-inducing keyboard and small screen in order to write everywhere they go, it is a winner. And there will be other niche markets like that, where everything comes together with it and it is a 5 star laptop for those people. For people who don't fit into one of those niches, it won't be a good choice. A very good point. I am a programmer and I like to write a lot. I hate laptops because to use them well you can't put them in your lap. So what's the point? I'd rather have a desk and desktop then thank you. I saw the Air and realized that somebody had seen this as a problem too. I saw the air and saw something that would be either a good tool for writing and browsing or a good wireless dumb terminal to hook up to my real workstation/server while I was lounging on a couch. As a workstation replacement the Macbook air's specs are laughable. But, it's *not* a workstation replacement for people like me who genuinely use the power of a full-blown Linux Workstation as part of our jobs. It is either a workstation accessory or a portable wireless terminal to hook up to a real computer. If I wanted to use either of these machines to develop software with I'd need to have a VNC or other connection back to a much more powerful machine... but I'm sure these are both fine for writing things like blog entries, slashdot posts, and books about programming. While developing software I find that a minimum of a dual cores at 2 GHz and a minimum of 4GB of RAM are barely acceptable. I couldn't imagine shoe-horning my typical work load into anything as tiny and slow as a Macbook air or the new laptop from Lenovo. The thing folks like us need to realize is that we aren't typical users. These things aren't built for us. They are built for your non-hacker types. And, my wife is one of those people and she loves the idea of a Macbook air. It would be worse than useless for me. For her, it's probably a perfect fit since her typical computing tasks require such little processing power and are more communications bound.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[2nd Post!]

I was comparing to the Dell M1330. Give the M1330 a 2.2GHz CPU, 1GB RAM, 802.11n, bluetooth, and 55WHr battery, and it is actually slightly more expensive than the MacBook, but that is actually okay since it is also slightly lighter. Or did you not even read the parent post talking about the M1330?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[2nd Post!]

My response was to a post about a person asking why people didn't compare the MacBook Air to a Dell M1330, or why Apple didn't make something like the M1330. My reply was to compare the Dell M1330 to the MacBook instead of the Air since the specs and prices were comparable.

The only difference is that the MacBook is slightly cheaper (gasp!) while the Dell is slightly lighter.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[try_anything]

It makes sense: Much of the criticism of the MacBook Air are of it's clearly advertised lack of big features

And much of the criticism comes from people who don't use those features at all. Case in point: My office, where nobody uses optical media, nobody bothers with ethernet cables (despite occasional problems with the wireless), and nobody ever plugs in more than one USB device at a time. People still call the Macbook Air "worthless" even though a moment's thought would demonstrate that it is quite adequately equipped to do what they actually do with their laptops.

Lugging around extra ounces and extra cubic inches just so you can have features that you might use once or twice in the lifetime of the laptop is stupid.

Too bad it doesn't come with the Thinkpad's nipple pointer or I'd blow the money on it in a heartbeat. I'm spoiled by the nipple and can't stand touchpads anymore :-(

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[node 3]

And if you intentionally hit it? Then it makes all your alpha characters upper case, as expected.

I don't "notice" my computer either in the way that you describe, btw. That's fine, if true, although I suspect it's not actually true.

What I suspect is that you notice your computer a lot, but you enjoy it, so you don't get annoyed by the act of noticing it. And what I mean by noticing it is sort of like when you're watching a movie, then someone makes a noise and all of the sudden you notice you're in a theater. A few moments later and you're back into the movie. The Mac tends to get out of the way such that you can focus on the task at hand, while PCs tend to "make a noise" (metaphorically, although sometimes literally) often enough to remind you that you're working on a computer, and not just focusing on a specific task.

With Windows, those "noises" tend to be more annoying (especially when accompanied by that Windows "stop" beep, or "alert" ding). Linux is *extremely* less annoying with its "noises" (again, metaphorical, and far less literally than with Windows). With Linux, it's more about instructing a computer to do tasks, and some people prefer it that way. Think of shell scripting and a long chain of Unix pipes as epitomes of this. When doing that, from the point of view of the specific task, this is almost pure "noise" (i.e., you are very much aware of the computer, and not the "doing" of the task). Quite literally, you are not doing the task, but are giving the computer detailed instructions for doing the task[*].

As I said above, it's totally fine if you prefer to "notice" your computer. I know for the longest time *I* did, and at times I still do. But now my focus is different and prefer to spend my time on the doing of the tasks and not the operating of the computer. Although I stated above that I suspect what you've said isn't true, I'd be interested to hear if (after reading my clarification of what I mean by "notice") it really is true.

[*] I realize that no matter *what* you're doing on a computer, and no matter *how* you interact with it, you are giving it detailed instructions, but there's something quite different about using a command-line utility to resize a photo, and dragging a photo to resize it. One is deliberately instructing the computer, the other has the feel of directly manipulating the image.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Sancho]

I think that was highly non-obvious, and others assumed you were making the same comparison that I thought you were making. Maybe English isn't your first language and the nuances weren't clear?

The post to which you replied had two clauses:

I'm sure the Air is not a 5-star product, let's admit it, they could have made it 0,5inch thicker and put some ports in that thing. and

I'll stay with my M1330 thanks. You replied:

What? They already did, it's called a MacBook. Ok, so the original poster was complaining about the Air not having as many ports, and that by making it 0.5" thicker, they could have added more ports. You reply that they did make a device which is like a Macbook Air, but thicker, heavier, and with the ports. Then you say that the prices are comparable, but you've switched from comparing the Macbook Air and the Macbook to comparing the Macbook and the M1330. Surely you can understand why people would become confused?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[bhtooefr]

This post typed by a worshipper of the TrackPoint, who has been shown that there is such a thing as a good touchpad, and is therefore typing it on an iBook G4.

(This is honestly the first truly GOOD touchpad I've used - and I've used quite a few of them. All it needs now is two buttons. ;))

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Cederic]

Surely the benefits around size and weight disappear when you stop carrying it around? If someone never leaves the house then there must surely be cheaper better alternatives out there.

Including the ibook.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Cederic]

Hmm. My current laptop is too heavy to pick up off the desk while running and carry in one hand with the screen in a readable position. I have strong fingers and wrists (I pull a 55lb longbow for fun), but it's a 17" screen and a darn heavy piece of kit.

My (2002 model) Sony Vaio can be tossed gently from hand to hand while remaining readable.

Your arms may not drop off, but when you're travelling with a bag full of other stuff, the difference in laptop weight is noticeable and significant. Which is why I've kept the Sony. It's slow, and I can only run at 1024x800, but it's light, portable and has good battery life (even now). Which is what I bought it for.

I'd still be sceptical about a Macbook Air though. I suspect an Asus EEE would be a better choice right now for me.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Cederic]

While developing software I find that a minimum of a dual cores at 2 GHz and a minimum of 4GB of RAM are barely acceptable. How did you survive the first ten years of your career?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[2nd Post!]

I perfectly understand how people were confused. Unfortunately I can't retroactively change the original post.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[zeet]

Also, if you remap the Caps Lock key to be a Control key, like any sensible person would, the new Mac hardware won't remove the delay. So you have to hold down the key for it to activate. Could that possibly be any more annoying?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Wo1ke]

usb keyboard, usb mice, usb speakers, usb headphones, ipods, camaras, etc. Also, the ethernet cables can be pretty fucking important at those times when you can't get wireless.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[AshtangiMan]

I guess I'm a supergenious, but I had no difficulty in understanding your comparison.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[node 3]

You're right that the hardware is what ignores accidental presses, but you're wrong that "any sensible person" would remap the key. Such an absolutely *miniscule* number of users would even *remotely* consider remapping the key that they can be safely ignored.

I mean, think about it for a moment. On the one hand, you have >99% of people benefiting from the delayed key, and instead of helping them, you'd rather help the <1% of people who would remap it? I understand you must be in that <1%, so you have a vested interest, but even with that vested interest, surely you can see which is the most beneficial case.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[mcmonkey]

And if you intentionally hit it?

Then it makes all your alpha characters upper case, as expected.

How does it know?

If this really works, I'd consider it one of the biggest break-throughs in A.I. ever.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

" if you remap the Caps Lock key to be a Control key, like any sensible person would, "
My CAD operators are sensible people, and they wouldn't dream of remapping the Caps Lock key, since it helps them type in all caps, which helps in the readability of blueprints, especially when they're plotted at a convenient half size.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Zarf]

While developing software I find that a minimum of a dual cores at 2 GHz and a minimum of 4GB of RAM are barely acceptable. How did you survive the first ten years of your career? Beowulf clusters. And, I was working in C on Unix back then.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

The external version has the usual separate keypad and cursor keys, which make it too wide for my pack. Also I don't know how much crushing a keyboard can take, and I don't have a case to protect the keys. And even if I manage to balance a lopsided good keyboard on top of the crummy keyboard that's already my lap, I wouldn't be able to reach the trackpad underneath it.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[vijayiyer]

I don't know if you actually read the article, but the IBM laptops are more expensive than the Macs.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[vijayiyer]

Bluetooth keyboard, bluetooth mice. There's a headphone jack for headphones and speakers. That leaves a USB port for ethernet (when you're traveling) or syncing the ipod (when you're at home).

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

Mini-skirts are neither style nor gimmick. They're a thinly disguised device for finding a mate by signaling availability.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[node 3]

How does it know? It measures the amount of time the key is held down and uses that to determine whether the key press was deliberate or accidental. The amount of time required to count as deliberate is fast enough that the user doesn't have to consciously hold the key down longer, the hardware is just taking advantage of the natural difference in timings of deliberate vs. accidental pressings of the caps lock key.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

Dude, if you're getting modded down "troll" or "flamebait" enough to inspire your sig, maybe it's because your posts are caustic.

Geez it wouldn't possbily be because trolling has increased dramatically on the last couple of years on slashdot. If you look through my history not all my posts are 'caustic' but when I read something as stupid as 'my lap can't take an extra kilogram' you bet I'll be caustic. How about we stick to the argument instead of attacking me? (Or if you prefer latin snobbery cut out the ad hominem). Otherwise I'll save arguing back and just label you a Mac apologist.

As for the actual topic
Thank you.

Think about how, on a hot day, different a thin t-shirt and a thick t-shirt feel.

Okay now lets think of a t-shirt that doesn't quite do all the jobs you want it to do. Perhaps it's stained down the front and can't be worn out. Perhaps it has tears or holes in it. Perhaps it went in the wash and the colours ran. In any case it's not quite what it should be. Would you prefer to wear the thinner damaged t-shirt in summer or the thicker one? A laptop that's only good for word processing is damaged/crippled junk. The reason PCs became so popular was their versatility.

In other words, it's not about being able to "handle it", but about preferring one over the other.

Really 1kg or 2kg makes no difference to me. Others must have thinner laps. My laptop's no longer sold but weight for the replacement model starts at 3.45kg. Macbook air starts at 1.36kg. That's just over 2kg. About the weight of a 6pack. Only one will do almost anything you can imagine. The other is good for word processing and light use, and it's very thinness makes it fragile.

You sound like a PC user, so you are probably used to constantly noticing your computer. The Mac experience is generally one of *not* noticing your computer

Oh brother. You that you can label my post 'caustic' and say something so pompous in the same statement makes me ill. You've been drinking Steve Job's cool-aid haven't you!? I notice my PC like I notice any other tool. It's called having eyes and ears. I don't find the weight on my lap at all uncomfortable because I'm usually too busy being engrossed in what I'm doing on my laptop - be that watching a DVD, flight simming, programming. The last thing I'd ever think is "hey I wish this were lighter". When do I notice the weight? When I'm carrying it. Mostly because I carry a lot more than just the laptop in the laptop bag.

I think, Macs are so design-oriented

Dude you're reminding me of this South Park episode:
http://www.tv.com/south-park/smug-alert!/episode/687553/recap.html

The blind devotion Mac users show is one reason I avoid the whole Mac cult-ure. It does feel like a cult. At least a PC user will generally admit the problems and trade-offs made with there machines and actually curse it a little bit. Most Mac users will just dismiss the flaw and start spouting garbage about how wonderful Macs are. I don't need religion, and I don't need a fashion accessory. I need a computer that does the job.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[amRadioHed]

Translucent computer cases were a gimmick the first time, but now are a big fashion in the PC "gearhead" community; just search for "case mods". Being fashinable with the desktop ricers makes something not a gimmic? Are you sure about that?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Saint Fnordius]

I was only considering the price difference between the MacBook and the MacBook Air, really. The combination of better component parts and the development that went into making something so thin and yet viable. Apples to Apples.

But as another post points out, the Lenovo (ThinkPads aren't IBM any more) offering costs roughly the same as the MBAir, meaning that Lenovo, Sony and the others in this niche are all competing at about the same price as the MBAir, which reinforces my argument that making things radically thinner and lighter yet still robust raises the price by a bit.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Saint Fnordius]

Dude, if you're getting modded down "troll" or "flamebait" enough to inspire your sig, maybe it's because your posts are caustic.

Geez it wouldn't possbily be because trolling has increased dramatically on the last couple of years on slashdot. If you look through my history not all my posts are 'caustic' but when I read something as stupid as 'my lap can't take an extra kilogram' you bet I'll be caustic. How about we stick to the argument instead of attacking me? (Or if you prefer latin snobbery cut out the ad hominem). Otherwise I'll save arguing back and just label you a Mac apologist. Right, I'm going to ding you for misuse of the term "ad hominem" right there. He was commenting on the tone of your post and your sig, not you. And his ribbing was valid, in that your caustic tone makes reasoned discussion hard when you have this huge chip on your shoulder. (Besides, Slashdot has always been full of trolls and flame-baiters. The absolute number has grown, yes, but the proportion has remained steady.)

You do seem to be extremely angry at Mac owners, almost resentful at them. Very much a "look at them, they think they're so cool" grumpiness. Thus I suspect that your sneering at the MacBook Air is due not to any real concerns about weight or design, but a spiteful prejudice.

You need to calm down and get some more fresh air, man. You're starting to sound like Ann Coulter. :)

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[try_anything]

When can you get wired ethernet but not wireless? A third world internet cafe? Your wireless network at home might get misconfigured and need to be fixed using a wired connection, but you just have to keep a USB ethernet adapter sitting around. Granted, if you work in IT, the situation is different, but I don't think anyone is envisioning IT guys carrying the Macbook Air around to do network troubleshooting or to use as a terminal in the data center.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, but you don't have to crap on the experience for the 99% while also catering for the remappers. The delay could only be applied if the key is mapped as Caps Lock. Duh.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a T43 right in front of me. Like pretty much every other laptop, it has a flat rectangular anti-ergonomic keyboard with only about 3 mm of key travel. It's thin and light, so nobody else seems to care how much it sucks to type on.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

Right, I'm going to ding you for misuse of the term "ad hominem" right there.

Go ahead but you come across as not understanding the term, not me. He was attacking the man and not the argument. My tone (or rather his perception of it based on one post) had nothing to do with the point I put forward. The very definition of ad hominem. Have fun trolling, sorry I mean dinging, though.

You do seem to be extremely angry at Mac owners, almost resentful at them. Very much a "look at them, they think they're so cool" grumpiness.

Someone needs to hit you with a clue bat. The guy was being prentious. His argument - that I'm "use to" noticing my computer but somehow due to his superiority his magically melts into the background of his life is arrogant bunk and deserves the contempt I have shown it. This is exactly why I feel resentful and grumpy towards Mac users. The arrogant pompous git stereotype fits way too often.

You need to calm down and get some more fresh air, man. You're starting to sound like Ann Coulter. :)

You need to get a life and stop trolling. Stop trying to pretend that you care about my welfare or are seeking to look after my welfare. It's transparent horse shit. You're another fucking Mac apologist troll. Quelle suprise! Wake up and have that Apple tattoo on your forehead surgically removed. Brand loyalty is for suckers.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

And if you have that much USB stuff (including a USB ethernet adapter), then is a USB hub really out of the question? I mean, that was even one of the points Mossberg made, wasn't it?

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[node 3]

How about we stick to the argument instead of attacking me? (Or if you prefer latin snobbery cut out the ad hominem). All I said was your tone is caustic, which you readily admitted to. That's not the ad hominem fallacy, which is when you attack the person and then use that to claim their point invalid in lieu of actual argument. I never said the reason you were wrong about the MacBook Air is because your posts are caustic.

But sure, let's avoid ad hominem, shall we?

- Or if you prefer latin snobbery
- Mac apologist
- pompous
- You've been drinking Steve Job's cool-aid haven't you!?
- Dude you're reminding me of this South Park episode [the Smug Alert episode]
- The blind devotion Mac users show is one reason I avoid the whole Mac cult-ure. Hrm... Well, removing all the personal attacks, you really only seem to make two arguments. One is that people want the MacBook Air because their current computer is "too heavy" (or too hot, too thick, whatever). That's not the case at all. The reason they want the MacBook Air is because it's *less* heavy. In my t-shirt analogy, the thicker t-shirt isn't *too* thick. It's perfectly fine. But a *thinner* one which is more comfortable is *better*. Or to use a computer analogy, if someone buys a faster computer, that doesn't mean their old one was too slow. Their old one may have been just fine, but the new one is faster, and therefore *more* desirable (sufficiently so that they decided to upgrade).

Your other argument is that the MacBook Air is crippled.

A laptop that's only good for word processing is damaged/crippled junk. The MacBook Air is more powerful than a large percentage of PC notebooks sold *today*. Taking into account that you are being hyperbolic about word processing, there are *very* few tasks which cannot be done comfortably on the MacBook Air. High end gaming is the only one that a significant number of people would notice (it will play WoW just fine, btw). The only other situation where the MacBook Air would feel limited in power is for certain professional users (i.e., HD video editing, heavy Photoshop work, scientific simulation), and even then I can't think of a single task, even among those users, for which the MacBook Air cannot be used. It is vastly more powerful than the computers those very professionals were using two years ago, and somehow they managed.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

All I said was your tone is caustic, which you readily admitted to

Are you a fucking lawyer or a politician? What I said was when I see bullshit I call it bullshit and sure that's caustic. To take that as meaning that I "readily admitted" my tone is (by implication always) caustic is dishonest, and to me proves you're a dishonest troll.

I never said the reason you were wrong about the MacBook Air is because your posts are caustic.

Nice bit of BS there. I didn't say 'fallacy'. YOU did. You most certainly did try to discredit me before launching into the discussion. Sure you didn't relate it back to the point. You're the one who introduced the word fallacy. So lets add straw man to your list of argumentative techniques.

According to wikipedia
"consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

So quit lying about what I said, and quit pretending you didn't attack me personally first. It's just weak.

But sure, let's avoid ad hominem, shall we?

I give as good as I get. I returned the fire, sure. Guilty as charged. Your arrogance and your continual poorly engineered attacks warrants everything I've said.

Hrm... Well, removing all the personal attacks, you really only seem to make two arguments

No I only make two points you choose to acknowledge. Weasel words.

Your first counter point is badly worded but is about the value of doing better than meeting minimum levels for comfort. You then ignore my modification of your analogy and classify it as my 'other' argument. It wasn't another argument at all - it was part of my main thrust. If the item doesn't meet minimum standards of functionality, comfort is irrelevant.

The MacBook Air is more powerful than a large percentage of PC notebooks sold *today*.

Ah that's a fantastic argument. There's more crippled junk out there, so this junk must be good. Way to convince me.

It is vastly more powerful than the computers those very professionals were using two years ago, and somehow they managed.

Two years ago is a lifetime in computer terms and you know it. If all you're doing is word processing I can imagine you wouldn't care if you were sat down in front of a machine equivalent to what you were using 2 or perhaps even 5 years ago. If you want to use your computer as little more than a glorified type writer with storage, that's fine. That isn't how most people use their machines. For most people using a 2 year old machine means being unable to take advantage of the latest software which does matter to them. For some people those extra 2 years of performance are the only reason they upgrade in the first place, because their computers demand it. People use their laptops for a vast variety of intensive things. Photo and video processing, copying large disks from one device to another, scientific work and number crunching, simulation and gaming. For those people the Macbook air is a joke.

Things I've done personally on my laptops include:
- Astronomy Masters homework including data reduction
- Gaming and simulation
- Video processing
- Processing 20Gb worth of photos in one hit
- Watch DVDs on my commute to and form work

Can your Crapbook air do that kind of work in a timely fashion? Heck it doesn't have an optical drive to watch DVDs. What a piece of shit.

But hey one of the articles on slashdot today was about a keyboard that costs $1500 and tires the typist in minutes. Clearly there's a market for crippled junk, and clearly people will buy overpriced garbage and claim they're being stylish. If you want to fall for silly marketing speak like "Thinnovation" you just have fun with it.

http://www.apple.com/macbookair/

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[node 3]

Can you think of any reason why someone would want to enter into a discussion with you? You *are* a major jackass, that *is* a personal attack, but it's *not* the ad hominem fallacy (read the wikipedia article, the ad hominem fallacy is when you attack the person *instead* of attacking their argument).

Do you think that just because you have an opinion that gives you free reign to be a complete asshole? And to expect you or your posts to be given any respect? I have nothing to gain by continuing to argue with you, and only my momentary temper to lose.

Reply if you wish, any response will go unread by me. I've better things to do with my time.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[AvitarX]

It was more in direct response too:

And with a small machine, like his Vaio (or with a machine like an Asus EEE), you've got a small screen and a small keyboard. He can go for 10 minutes or so, but it is just too painful to write for hours on those. Those also have horrible battery life. The reviewer that liked the Air appeared to be comparing it to a pretty stupid machine for his needs. Perhaps an uncramped vaio would be a solution, but not one I have experience with.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[mdwh2]

Then it makes all your alpha characters upper case, as expected.

I meant how does it know if you intend to hit it or not? If it requires you to hold down, whilst it's an interesting idea, I'd find that annoying in itself (it would be "noise", if you like). Can the behaviour be turned off?

That's fine, if true, although I suspect it's not actually true.

- snip long ramble about noise and noticing computers -

Yes, I'm obviously a liar.

I'm still not sure what you mean. If I watch a movie, I watch a movie. I don't notice my computer just because it runs Windows, nor would I if it ran BeOS, AmigaOS or whatever else.

Can you give me specific examples, rather than just making vague claims and labelling anyone who disagrees as a liar?

I realize that no matter *what* you're doing on a computer, and no matter *how* you interact with it, you are giving it detailed instructions, but there's something quite different about using a command-line utility to resize a photo, and dragging a photo to resize it.

???

I'm not Linux a fan, but I figured you didn't need a command line to resize an image. Even Apple finally decided their users were grown up enough to use an OS that had a command line (as opposed to the joke that was classic MacOS) - a command line is there as an additional way to do things, which may be better for some purposes.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[mdwh2]

Those CAD operators would always be "noticing" their computers (to use the other poster's terminology) if they were using Macs, if they had to use the Caps Lock key so often...

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[MogNuts]

I can't let this one slide. :-) Most people choose BMW because they offer a truly incredible driving experience. Comfort combined with sports-car handling (it sounds like marketing fluff, but it really is true). And they do even the littlest nuances perfectly--like even if you jam on the accelerator, with throttle tip-in, it still delivers smooth power delivery; or BMW's perfect steering feel. Apple, on the other hand, offers nothing over a PC. It's the same components in a prettier box, marked up between 50-150% in price.

And one could make the argument, "but with OS X it does the nuances right as well, like the BMW." But also here, the difference is your preference. It is NOT like with BMW against other cars, where the BMW truly IS better.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[syousef]

That's fine. Read it or don't. Continue thinking I'm a jackass, while your condescending drivel is just good argument. You fail to address a single point I've made without twisting it and arguing another. You begin with the personal attacks and then get upset when I dish them back up.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to get in the middle of this. You are both obnoxious. So I'll post as AC. But I have to say

Can you think of any reason why someone would want to enter into a discussion with you? You *are* a major jackass,

is an ad hominem fallacy. You are discrediting his ability to argue instead of addressing the argument.

Re:Reviews for Macbook air are strangely high

[zeet]

But there's another option which harms nobody and upgrades old machines at the same time: add the feature in software. Then when someone remaps, the key is still useful. Apple doesn't like adding new features to old hardware, however, so that's straight out.

But...

[sm62704]

Will a beowold cluster of them run Linux in Soviet Russia?

Re:But...

[frank_adrian314159]

Will a beowold cluster of them run Linux in Soviet Russia?

No! But a Beowulf cluster will give you:

1. Natalie Portman
2. Hot grits
3. The goatse guy
4. ...
5. Profit!

Re:But...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, in Soviet Russia a beowold cluster of linux runs on you!

Re:But...

[ickoonite]

Ooooh, how meta.

:P

Re:But...

[sm62704]

Boy do I know how to screw up a good joke, thanks for recovering the day there

Re:But...

[Hillgiant]

Wait, not meta. The other thing.... Banal.

Why compare?

[gilesjuk]

The fact that the Macbook air runs an OS that the PC laptop can't is a major plus.

Unless you intend to run Windows on the Mac laptop then why compare?

Re:Why compare?

[CastrTroy]

Which OS would that be?

Re:Why compare?

[0100010001010011]

OSX86 is a nice little hobby, but for someone that wants a full working computer it's annoying. Even people building from computers scratch using 'ideal' components can't always get things working perfectly (eg, Me). Laptops it's even harder to find drivers, etc. Oh sure it'll run, but sleep won't work. Sound is flaky and wireless won't work. Especially considering there might not even be OS X WiMax drivers.

Re:Why compare?

[kramulous]

I agree entirely (posting from my macbook pro with only a Fedora install - best of both worlds ... excellent hardware, excellent OS).

Re:Why compare?

[miscz]

What's a PC laptop? Apple computers are not "PCs"? I'm fucking going to bitch about this marketing crap everytime I see it. Also, artificial restrictions in Mac OSX are possible to hack, sorry. And it's not that great OS too.

Re:Why compare?

[je ne sais quoi]

Unless you intend to run Windows on the Mac laptop then why compare?

Those of us who consider windows to be non-professional grade software find that to be a major bonus. There are a limited number of operating systems that also run a large number of commonly used apps (i.e. MS Office, Photoshop) without the aid of a reverse-engineered API (wine). The only one I can think of is Mac OS X, thus the ability to run Mac OS X is a definite plus for the macbook air in my book.

Re:Why compare?

[elloGov]

The comparison is not on the OS(s) each machine can run or not, but rather on the ability of each to satisfy a need for a "Road Warrior." Whether one OS or the other OS achieving this doesn't factor in this comparison. With that being said, I am a huge fan of Thinkpads and think that Lenovo(IBM) has a far superior quality and architecture than any other manufacturer out there. It is worth the price in my opinion. Identical specs on a Thinkpad and let's say HP or Dell laptop are just not the same.

Re:Why compare?

[gumbi west]

Considering doing the same. Do you use TeX? If so, is there anything as good as TeXShop is for OS X?

Re:Why compare?

[at_slashdot]

One laptop runs a better OS than the other, in addition that laptop can run all the major OSes available. Why not compare?

Re:Why compare?

[larry bagina]

There's this wiki TeX Editor page. (I'm a happy TexShop user).

Re:Why compare?

[kramulous]

Sorry, I can't offer any useful help there. I don't use LaTex. (a yum search reveals a lot though - surely there is something in there).

Word of warning before you do it, to save you a lot of time, resize your OSX from the OSX terminal, install rEFIt, install Fedora on free space, THEN remove OSX while having boot into Fedora. It's an incompatibility of grub thing. I didn't look to into it because I was running out of time. Ubuntu does not have this problem.

Re:Why compare?

[Niten]

If so, is there anything as good as TeXShop is for OS X?

Sadly, no. One of the best features of TeXShop is pdfsync (which is also supported in other PDF viewers on OS X like Skim and PDFView), but pdfsync is not yet supported by any Linux (or Windows) LaTeX environments.

Re:Why compare?

[BlackSnake112]

I'd love to see the "I'm a Mac.." Commercial with the Mac guy switching into/having a PC and Linux guy.

It could be funny. It would be true. Never happen, but would be good to see.

Re:Why compare?

[p0tat03]

Oh come on, way to let zealotry get ahead of you. OSx86 is a hack project, not a stable distribution of any OS. One has enough trouble just getting the most basic functions to run, even with a machine spec'ed to emulate Mac hardware. Getting OS X running on run of the mill generic hardware is EXTREMELY difficult.

Mod parent down. It's like suggesting a Vista install for a Pentium 300. I'm sure with enough hackery you can get it to work, but the results will NOT be professional, nor will it be stable, and in any case it's far beyond the abilities of your average user - or even your average power user.

Re:Why compare?

[SanityInAnarchy]

The officially supported, legal one from Apple.

Re:Why compare?

[akho]

Real men use .dvi anyway. And vim-latexsuite. (inverse-searching seems to do what pdfsync does)

Re:Why compare?

[ChrisMP1]

Ubuntu does not have this problem.

Which version, 8.04?? Gutsy sure didn't like my Mac Mini.

Re:Why compare?

[ChrisMP1]

Real men use cat and sed. After they compile the file to DVI, they use hd to read the binary, and handwrite the document following it.

Re:Why compare?

[nevillethedevil]

"Hi, I'm a schizophrenic Mac..."

Re:Why compare?

[POTSandPANS]

Why compare a laptop that you can buy now to one that isn't even out yet?

Also, does anybody actually use that little red thing in the keyboard?

Re:Why compare?

[FooBarWidget]

Wait a minute, first you people boast about being able to run Windows on a Mac, which is *unsupported*, and now you mod down OSX86 on the PC because it is unsupported? Talk about being hypocritical.

Re:Why compare?

[kramulous]

7.10 and 7.04 worked flawlessly. Mine is a first gen machine.

Re:Why compare?

[ChrisMP1]

Oh shit, I'm sorry for my dumbass sarcastic remark. My tongue can be a bit sharper at times than I'd like. I had a brain fart -- I think my problem had something to do with either the fact that I deleted the EFI partition or that I left the disk with a GUID partition table. Not sure which, but it was my own stupid fault.

Re:Why compare?

[azenpunk]

the devices should be compared as they will be used in the real world, different OS and all.

Re:Why compare?

[Anonymous Coward]

Running Windows (32-bit) on a Mac is supported. Boot Camp is a fully supported part of Leopard. Apple produces a complete set of Win32 drivers for every Intel Mac.

OSX86 is, by contrast, a hack. A very useful hack, but a hack. You need to make sure you have *exactly* the right hardware and, in most cases, break a license.

Posted anonymously so as not to undo previous moderation.

Re:Why compare?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows *is* supported on a Mac, provided you have it legally.

Re:Why compare?

[Sir_Lewk]

PC generally refers to "IBM Compatible PC", which for a long time Apple computers were not. It's just tradition, get over it.

Re:Why compare?

[Anonymous Coward]

{quote}Mod parent down{quote}
I modded *you* down, for trying to boss my mod points around! Insensitive clod! :-P

Re:Why compare?

[Zeinfeld]

Unless you intend to run Windows on the Mac laptop then why compare?

Well some of us have a Mac and have not joined the cult. Point in fact here is that I am currently typing this on my new Macbook Air which I have owned for two days now without feeling the need to wear black jeans and a turtleneck.

Now the reason I have bought a Mac is probably unique (see my blog, I am not typing it in again), but I don't feel the lack of Mac features when I am using my Vista machine. In fact the only real difference between the two is that I can use one downstairs on the couch and the other has a 30" display.

I had been considering the Lenovo prior to realizing that I needed to get a Mac if I was going to write anything on Security Usability. Even though Apple is not doing any better than Microsoft on the measures I am concerned with it is necessary to answer those whose answer to every usability problem is 'get a Mac'.

The reason I would not get the Lenovo X300 is that I would wait for the convertible tablet model. I don't rate the handwriting analysis as a killer application, at this point I type faster than I write. But the ability to scribble and whiteboard is very useful.

On the side by side comparison, I don't think the Lenovo comes close to the MacBook Air. First it is a thousand bucks more and second its not much different to the X61. Its a Thinkpad with a solid state drive, well big whoopsie, I didn't pay for the SSD on my MacBook and I wouldn't pay that on the Thinkpad either. To be worth having the SSD has to cost half as much and provide twice as much space.

Here is a hint, nobody knows if your MacBook Air has an SSD or a hard drive inside. You can buy three years of AppleCare and a TimeVault for $550. By the time the AppleCare runs out there will be a new MacBook Air.

Re:Why compare?

[miscz]

I'm complaining because it's like saying "Porsche is better than a car". It's annoying me.

Re:Why compare?

[rtechie]

This is not true.

Apple will NOT provide support for the Windows install on a Mac.

Microsoft will not support Retail copies of Windows installed in a multi-boot environment unless all of the installed operating systems are Windows. IOW, no MacOS/Windows dual-boots. You can lie to MS I suppose, but if they find out you're dual-booting you'll lose support.

You have to pay a third-party for LEGAL Windows support on MacOS. I'm not aware of any such third-parties.

So, in practice, Windows on MacOS is really in the same boat as OSX86.

Re:Why compare?

[dwater]

I agree entirely (posting from my macbook pro with only a Fedora install - best of both worlds ... excellent hardware, excellent OS). I used to install Fedora on my systems (still have one at FC6), but...don't you get fed up with having to upgrade so often in order to keep getting updates? ...or is this an ATrpms thing that I use for updates.

My new installs are Ubuntu or Ubuntu server depending on the purpose - though with that I'm a bit pissed that they've dropped PPC support (though it's continued by the community or something) - and it's a bit odd for a person from Fedora/RedHat land.

Re:Why compare?

[Anonymous Coward]

So do the Apple commercials annoy you too? Should they say "I'm a Mac PC" and "I'm a PC PC" ?

Re:Why compare?

[kramulous]

Yes, I used to get tired of updating. However, once I get a working system the way I like it, I remove the non-essential repos (mostly leave just the security ones - occasionally browse the other updates for anything new/worthwhile). The X-Server breaks whenever there is an update, but now have a script I run that automates the process of setting up the way it was.

I'm new to Linux (2 years) and have forced myself to be totally in bed with it. Our clusters and Access Grid machines run RedHat. I needed to know everything about them. Since, the OS has just stuck with me for some reason.

Programming is a much more agreeable world than what it was with Windows. OSX was also a bitch for me for programming. I hated the framework thing (why do they need to change the basics for OpenGL including?) and refuse to code in a language that has only one target platform. Java was behind on OSX.

Re:Why compare?

[akho]

Yeah, maybe. Yet real men (as opposed to real men) actually manage to write something.

Re:Why compare?

[sankyuu]

I am not the parent, but you're assuming that you're gonna dual boot the mac. If you take out OSX and boot only vista, your concerns are resolved.
So if licensing is the only hurdle, then your argument doesn't hold. But I think, the only question here is whether macs are WHQL-certified.

You have to pay a third-party for LEGAL Windows support on MacOS

Are you changing the topic to virtualization? The discussion is about running Windows on mac hardware, and there is no legal impediment to doing so. Also, Apple openly supports Vista on their hardware.

Re:Why compare?

[JohnBailey]

Why compare a laptop that you can buy now to one that isn't even out yet? Why not. Its fun watching the Apple fans puff themselves up so much and come out with arguments that would make whole PR companies seem honest.

Also, does anybody actually use that little red thing in the keyboard? Yep. Seems to be more reliable than touch pads.

Re:Why compare?

[oberondarksoul]

The difference is that Apple provides you with a boot loader, drivers, and easy partitioning utilities to let you boot Windows on a Mac. All official, all fully supported. The only part of Boot Camp which isn't is Windows itself. Compare this to OSX86, where you're completely on your own.

Re:Why compare?

[kramulous]

You two remind me of: http://xkcd.com/378/

Re:Why compare?

[mchanaud]

The fact that the Macbook air runs an OS that the PC laptop can't is a major plus. I'd rather say : An OS that can't run on every platform is a major disadvantage.
Apple fanboy, start moding me down NOW !

Re:Why compare?

[node 3]

He said "running Windows (32-bit) on a Mac is supported", not "Windows, running on a Mac, is supported". The difference is the latter implies Apple (or Microsoft or someone) will support Windows itself on the Mac. The former implies Apple (or someone) will support running Windows on your Mac.

Basically, they *fully* and *with in-store, in-person assistance*, support everything you need hardware-wise (including drivers for Windows, EFI software and OS X setup software) for installing and getting Windows up-and-running. After that, any support of Windows itself, they won't generally do.

So, in practice, Windows on MacOS is really in the same boat as OSX86. This is not even remotely true, and shows a complete lack of understanding of Boot Camp.

Re:Why compare?

[mdwh2]

Basically, they *fully* and *with in-store, in-person assistance*, support everything you need hardware-wise

You can argue this the other way round - Microsoft support Windows running on any hardware, whilst Apple only support OS X running in their own machines (and might even claim it's illegal to do otherwise). It's not clear to me why Apple are getting the credit here.

Re:Why compare?

[Anonymous Coward]

so then would a computer that can't run every major OS be a major disadvantage?

Re:Why compare?

[miscz]

"I'm a PC running Windows" would satisfy me.

Re:Why compare?

[Sir_Lewk]

Very well, I can see that. Personally I just refer to computers by their manufacturer now. ie "I have a thinkpad" or "He has a dell." etc.

Re:Why compare?

[initdeep]

Those of us who consider windows to be non-professional grade software find that to be a major bonus. and those of us with brains find this to be the most unintelligent comment every uttered on /.

or close anyway......

Re:Why compare?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'd love to see the "I'm a Mac.." Commercial with the Mac guy switching into/having a PC and Linux guy.

It could be funny. It would be true. Never happen, but would be good to see."

Just a couple of hours ago, I saw a new Apple commercial that started as follows:

Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac.

PC: And I'm a PC.

Mac: And I'm a PC...

It went on from there about Macs being able to run Windows, in addition to OS X.

I think it's supposed to start running soon on TV.

Re:Why compare?

[rtechie]

There seems to be some confusion about my earlier post.

I was talking ONLY about dual-booting Apple MacOS 10 and Microsoft Windows XP on Apple hardware using BootCamp. I was not talking about virtualization or any other scenario. In this scenario, and this scenario only, there is NO WAY you can get first-party support for the Windows install. Apple will not support it and Microsoft will not.

Based on these FACTS I consider it disingenuous to state "Running Windows (32-bit) on a Mac is supported." because it isn't. Sure the BOOTLOADER is supported, but that's just the bootloader. Once you've got Windows installed you're on your own. Even if you CAN'T get it installed you're on your own because Apple doesn't support Windows installation problems. This is no different from saying "Running Ubuntu on a Mac is supported." (I'm assuming BootCamp supports OS' other than Windows). Yeah, maybe you can get it to work, but you're basically on your own.

That's why I don't consider the situation to be significantly different from OSX86. Apple supports BootCamp in the sense they'll give you support if it eats your OSX install by telling to you reinstall OSX (this is the sum total of the phone support I've personally seen for BootCamp), but that's it.

Re:Why compare?

[node 3]

There seems to be some confusion about my earlier post.

I was talking ONLY about dual-booting Apple MacOS 10 and Microsoft Windows XP on Apple hardware using BootCamp. No confusion whatsoever. I was referring to Boot Camp as well (in fact, I even used that exact term).

In this scenario, and this scenario only, there is NO WAY you can get first-party support for the Windows install. Apple will not support it and Microsoft will not.

Based on these FACTS I consider it disingenuous to state "Running Windows (32-bit) on a Mac is supported." because it isn't. Again, you do not seem to understand the difference between supporting Windows the software, and supporting Windows on the hardware. Apple will not support Windows the software (i.e., if you get a BSoD, Apple won't help. If you flash player doesn't work in IE, Apple won't help. etc.). This is no different from Apple not supporting Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Word. If those programs aren't working properly, Apple won't fix them for you.

However, Apple *will* support you installing those programs, Apple *will* make efforts to be sure that it's not OS X that's causing the problem. Similarly, Apple *does* support you installing Windows on your Mac, and Apple *does* make efforts (including full hardware driver support) to make sure it's not the Mac that's keeping Windows from working.

I'm fairly confident that if you were to go to an Apple Store with your Mac and ask for help installing Windows, they would help. They would run the Boot Camp Assistant, they would put the Windows CD in for you, and they would watch it install. Once that's done, they would probably even install the drivers for you. After that, they would leave the rest up to you. If it fails, however, I doubt they'd do anything unless it was clearly a Mac issue and not a Windows issue. They won't troubleshoot Windows itself, just Boot Camp.

The point being, Boot Camp is a fully supported feature of Mac OS X Leopard.

Once you've got Windows installed you're on your own. Even if you CAN'T get it installed you're on your own because Apple doesn't support Windows installation problems. This is no different from saying "Running Ubuntu on a Mac is supported." (I'm assuming BootCamp supports OS' other than Windows). Once you've got Windows installed you're on your own. Even if you CAN'T get it installed you're on your own because Apple doesn't support Windows installation problems. This is no different from saying "Running Ubuntu on a Mac is supported." (I'm assuming BootCamp supports OS' other than Windows). Actually, Apple does *not* support Ubuntu at all in any way whatsoever. Ubuntu doesn't work with Boot Camp. Apple does not provide a way to install Ubuntu. Apple does not provide any drivers for Ubuntu (or Linux in general).

Re:Why compare?

[node 3]

You can argue this the other way round - Microsoft support Windows running on any hardware, whilst Apple only support OS X running in their own machines (and might even claim it's illegal to do otherwise). It's not clear to me why Apple are getting the credit here. Because that's an entirely different issue. People *do* complain about Apple not allowing OS X to be installed on non-Macs.

Re:Why compare?

[rtechie]

This is no different from Apple not supporting Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Word. But Adobe and Microsoft WILL. The point I am making is that Apple does not support Windows in BootCamp *AND* Microsoft does not support Windows in BootCamp, which means THERE IS NO 1ST-PARTY SUPPORT FOR WINDOWS RUNNING IN BOOTCAMP FROM ANYONE. As far as troubleshooting a Windows install within BootCamp you are completely on your own.

I stand by my statement that this is not significantly different from OSX86 except the install might be smoother.

I stand by my statement that it's disingenuous to say that "Windows is supported on/by Apple".

Similarly, Apple *does* support you installing Windows on your Mac My company had their "Business" support, I forget what it's called by we paid something like $2500 for it. I called their phone number and asked for help installing Windows on a MacBook. No dice. Again, I can't speak to other people's experiences.

But "support for installing Windows", even if it exists, isn't the same as "support for the Windows install ITSELF" which is what I'm talking about.

Bah.

[jmorris42]

Feh. Both of them leave me uncaring. I'd have expected more benefit from SSD in the runtime dept for the price premium it carries. But on the other hand the Apple is too much compromise in function to achieve 'cool factor' for my taste. If I really wanted to optimize the size (while still keeping something close to a real keyboard) over everything else I'd grab an eeepc.

Re:Bah.

[TheSpengo]

I agree. I can either pay $2-3000 for an expensive thinkpad or macbook air and use it for portable internet browsing, word processing, etc. OR I can spend $300 and get an Asus eeepc that's even smaller and do the same thing. I guess they could be useful if you needed a bit more power than the eeepc can provide, but I use a desktop computer for that. $1000 desktop + $300 eeepc gets you more portability and more power for half the price!

Depends on what you are going for...

[puff3456]

The X300 is like a tank, the Air like a sculpture, one is purpose built to get the job done, the other is purpose built to woo the eyes.

Re:Depends on what you are going for...

[Warll]

If any laptop is a sculpture its the Thinkpad line. Their design is simply beautiful and the closeted thing your going to get in timeless when it comes to computers. I myself am rather indifferent about most of the current Apple product styles, but I can tell you this, I don't think I'd want anyone to see me with an older iBook.

Re:Depends on what you are going for...

[puff3456]

I love the way the Thinkpad looks, and love the various features which are elegantly designed into it, however often find myself at odds with people saying they are ugly and stuck in the 80's. Either way a great machine as I expect the x300 will similarly prove to be.

Wow...

[rworne]

FTA:

It [Thinkpad X300] isn't as sexy or inexpensive as the MacBook Air, but it has numerous features the Apple lacks, especially a wide array of ports and connectivity options, a built-in DVD drive and a removable battery.

The first time I have ever seen someone use "inexpensive" to describe the Macbook Air.

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

jobs is going to double the price if he hears that.

Re:Wow...

[internetcommie]

It often surprises people, but when comparing computers with the same features, Macs often turns out to cost less.
Yes, you can get a Windows or Linux PC for $199, but it does not exactly have the performance of a Mac Pro. I was recently looking for a high performance PC, and found the Mac Pro was actually the cheapest one that met my requirements. What surprised even me is that even if I assumed I would be buying RAM and a display from Apple, it came out to less than a similarly equipped Dell, with Dell RAM and display.

Re:Wow...

[BeanThere]

More important, and people always forget to do this, is to factor in the extra time you need to baby a Windows system to keep it running OK, e.g. digging through website forums, going in circles trying to find and download the patches and driver updates that might hopefully fix the problem you're having, applying obscure registry edits (Vista especially, if you add it up I've had at a *minimum* two weeks fulltime downtime just trying to get basic things to work, from USB flash drives / USB mice to digital cameras to phones to bluetooth to wireless to graphics (OpenGL) etc. etc. ... then you also need to factor in the extra time and money spent on antivirus software, as well as the fact that antivirus software must make your computer slower, so you actually, by definition, need a faster PC for Windows in order to get the *equivalent* performance of a Mac system - you can't even compare GHz for GHz etc.

To make a long story short by paraphrasing an old quote: A Windows PC is only (maybe) cheaper if your time has no value.

Re:Wow...

[internetcommie]

Yeah, I factored in the performance drag caused by virus software, so I picked a Mac Pro with 3GHz processors, and a Dell with 3.2GHz processors. That might still not be enough to get the same performance, particularly not if running Vista.
But by the time I was done, the Dell was almost $1000 more and I had yet to calculate how much my time to set it up and nanny it would cost, so I think I'll go with the Mac.

Same with the laptops. For over a year now I have been considering replacing my 12" Powerbook. I was hoping for a smaller Macbook Pro, and would probably bought the Air if it had a decent graphics processor.
I also considered the Lenovo X-series, but since I can't even get one with Linux I kind of lost interest after thinking of what I would need to do to keep a Windows machine alive, considering my coffee shop wi-fi habit.

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

Congratulations, you found the one price level (the Mac Pro) where Macs are actually somewhat competitively priced.

Would you like your cookie now, or save it for later?

Re:Wow...

[giminy]

It often surprises people, but when comparing computers with the same features, Macs often turns out to cost less.

Ah, slashdot: you point out the truth that macs actually are cheaper than PCs, and you get modded a troll. Sorry man.

But it is true, so the moderators should mod the parent up. Macs might not be quite as configurable as PCs, but if you compare a low-end Dell to an iMac (say), you'll find that the iMac packs a better video card, bigger monitor, bigger hard drive, more ram, and better CPU for the price. You can argue that you can't upgrade the video card/processor/whatever in an iMac, but most people never do that anyway (and if you want to do that stuff in a Dell, you're going to have to buy a new [proprietarily wired, so expensive] power supply).

Obviously it doesn't hold true for roll-your-own PCs, but then roll-your-own PCs don't come with a decent 1-3 year warranty where you can go to just one company for the machine to get fixed...

Strange how the "Macs are expensive" myth is still out there.

Reid

Re:Wow...

[kiddygrinder]

meh, took me 4 hours to get vista running properly after a clean install on my first go. this included turning off all the heavy services, installing all drivers and programs i use both frequently and infrequently. I don't bother with antispyware/antivirus cause i don't install random programs off the net etc and hence don't get them, however there are plenty of free options that don't weigh down your system too much.

I wouldn't recommend it to someone who doesn't know computers but it does alright for a microsoft os.

Re:Wow...

[BeanThere]

I don't doubt that others have had better experiences than me, in fact, I can't even imagine it can get much worse (I think anyone who had half as many problems would long ago have either thrown out the computer and bought a new different one, or upgraded to XP or something, thereby 'avoiding' further problems, instead of sticking it out for a year like I've done) - so I do think my case is probably one of the outliers. But even so, it remains a fact that it's been an absolute horror nightmare for me, and the nightmare continues (my digital camera, for example, which I only just got working a couple months ago after large amounts of hoop-jumping, just randomly stopped working again yesterday .. *sigh* .. and this is my story of *everything* with Vista). And I'm not stupid, I *really* do know what I'm doing. And it's a high-end laptop with 2GB RAM that worked 'perfectly' with XP beforehand.

I'm on the verge of putting XP back on the system now, I just need to set aside a couple of days out my schedule (which is about what it takes to reinstall the many various apps I need --- I'm happy that you could do it 4 hours but for me that's impossible, I need amongst others Visual Studio 6, Visual Studio 2005, Photoshop, Eraser, Apache/PHP/MySQL, PostgreSQL, TortoiseSVN, Firefox, Opera, my mail client, PuTTY, Total Commander, a proper text editor, doxygen, Private Disk Light, the cellphone software, the digital camera software, codecs, VLC, WinAmp, Skype, Pidgin, OpenOffice, MS Office 2007, VNC viewer, anti-virus and many more - that's a good two or three days of just straight installing :/). Then on top of that I also (like you) disable unused services and scheduled tasks etc. and do other streamlining, plus there are literally over a hundred updates with several reboots plus antivirus updates etc. --- how do you manage four hours, what kind of work do you do? I just started realised how much I'm doing, no wonder I feel over-extended.

I realise, yes, the system is quite loaded with apps, but then, like I said, the SAME setup was working very well with Windows XP on the very same computer.

In general I have a heterogenous setup whereby I use Mac, Linux and Windows, each for various different tasks. Each sucks at some things, but is better at other things. I 'dream' of the day that the software industry can provide me with one OS and I can just stick to that, but we're not there yet.

Re:Wow...

[dwater]

It often surprises people, but when comparing computers with the same features, Macs often turns out to cost less. But it's the other way around in this case. He's comparing a PC with 'all the features' and costs more, against a Mac that has very few of said features and costs less.

TFA is slow at loading at the moment so I can't check, but I doubt he bothered to load up the Mac so that it has the same features as the PC, if that's even possible. I mean, that's what Mac people usually try to do to PCs when the comparison is the other way...

Re:Wow...

[KDR_11k]

The problem is that often that "Macs are cheaper" claim is based on comparing the Mac to a PC that has every single spec at least as good as the Mac (which isn't always possible so some are bigger). Of course noone really needs every last spec at exactly that level. If you turned this comparison around, took a PC and looked for the cheapest Mac that reaches or exceeds that PC in every spec you'll end up with a much more expensive Mac (because it's easy to have a single spec in a PC that's only reached by a top-end Mac). This is pretty much the result of quantization errors.

You seem pretty fixated on Dell, there are literally hundreds of other stores out there that offer complete PCs and you can choose one you really want or need instead of the closest step. E.g. my sister needed a cheap PC that can do text processing and web browsing, she got a 300€ system that does what she needs. You should compare systems to your requirements, not other systems.

If you compare requirements and none of the requirements is "must be a Mac" then you'll often end up cheaper with a PC because often you'll have to go to the next bigger line of Macs if you want a specific feature not available in the lower Macs.

Re:Wow...

[Ed Avis]

I'm on the verge of putting XP back on the system now, I just need to set aside a couple of days out my schedule (which is about what it takes to reinstall the many various apps I need --- I'm happy that you could do it 4 hours but for me that's impossible, I need amongst others Visual Studio 6, Visual Studio 2005, Photoshop, Eraser, Apache/PHP/MySQL, PostgreSQL, TortoiseSVN, Firefox, Opera, my mail client, PuTTY, Total Commander, a proper text editor, doxygen, Private Disk Light, the cellphone software, the digital camera software, codecs, VLC, WinAmp, Skype, Pidgin, OpenOffice, MS Office 2007, VNC viewer, anti-virus and many more - that's a good two or three days of just straight installing :/).

Yes, this is the true cost of running Windows. I just get the latest Fedora CD, install everything, and it's done. If a package got left out I just say 'smart install whatever'. If I want one or two obscure applications not included with Fedora then it takes half an hour of fiddling around to add third-party RPM repositories and do 'smart upgrade'. And they say that installing apps on Linux is a pain...

Perhaps it's not an entirely fair comparison because 'cellphone software', 'digital camera software', proprietary codecs and other semi-junkware isn't included.

Re:Wow...

[xhrit]

It took me longer then 4 hours to get vista past the "Windows is configuring updates" dialog box.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/932141

Re:Wow...

[delire]

Strange how the "Macs are expensive" myth is still out there.

To be fair the Mac range is simply often far more expensive. For those of us that don't care for OS X the MBP just isn't a sane buy while better hardware exists for less cost.

I've always thought Thinkpads were a luxury laptop, however after reading many customer reviews, reading benchmarks, reading about build quality and looking at prices it turned out to be a very sane idea to buy one. I couldn't find a better spec'd, more performant and portable laptop with these features, let alone at the 14.1" footprint. I have around 6 hours battery life at normal use, a better graphics card than the most expensive MBP (the 17" has only the 8600 GT) and with twice the RAM (MBP is just 2G).. for $1000 less. Better still it has a keyboard to which no other laptop can remotely compare.

See for yourself:

The best spec'd MBP is $2799. A better spec'd T61p is $1728.. The T61p$1000 less expensive..

Re:Wow...

[Altus]

I priced out a dell and an iMac just the other day for a friend. When I bumped the dell up to a 21" screen (this was not the all in one, since that wasnt a necessary feature for my friend) it came out to under $100 less than the iMac. The two machines were very similar, processor, hard drive, memory and video card.

Sure, the iMac was a touch more expensive but it was in line with the dells cost. In the end I suspect my friend will get the iMac, pretty much because of OS X.

Sure, one could put together a cheeper dell, but it wouldnt compare with the iMac and would be more inline with the Mac Mini.

Re:Wow...

[tomthegeek]

(and if you want to do that stuff in a Dell, you're going to have to buy a new [proprietarily wired, so expensive] power supply).

Since when has Dell used proprietary power supplies??

Re:Wow...

[Cederic]

factor in the extra time you need to baby a Windows system to keep it running OK none - Windows kind of just works for me. Install it when I buy the machine, touch it again when there's a new graphics card driver out or the hardware dies. And the new graphics drivers are only because games get upset if you don't. These would be games that don't even run on Macs.

going in circles trying to find and download the patches and driver updates that might hopefully fix the problem you're having What problem? You're inventing things here!

(although it does sound like my Ubuntu partition. One day I'll get the optical drive on this laptop to be recognised by Linux)

trying to get basic things to work, from USB flash drives / USB mice to digital cameras to phones to bluetooth to wireless to graphics (OpenGL) etc. etc Flash drive : Works instantly, no problems.
USB mouse : Works instantly, no problems.
Digital Camera : Works instantly, no problems.
Phone : Comes with software that I install, then it works. No such software available for the Mac
Bluetooth : Working when I bought the machine (built in)
Wireless : Working when I bought the machine (built in)
Graphics : Everything I've installed/used that needs graphics has worked instantly, no problems.

factor in the extra time and money spent on antivirus software I don't use any. So I can compare GHz for GHz.

My time does have value. Learning how to use OSX, finding alternates to the software I used daily on Windows, probably writing new software to replace that which is not available (e.g. phone synchronisation).. I have better things to do with my time.

Throw in the fact that when I bought the laptop I'm replying to you from it was a higher spec than any mac available on the market at the time, for less money, and I'm really struggling to understand why people are so confused that someone might actually purchase a non-Apple PC.

Macs aren't necessarily bad. Neither are Windows PCs.

Re:Wow...

[Cederic]

Ah, ok. I take everything in my other post back. I'm using XP still.

I'd rather learn OSX than learn Vista.

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be the black version, MacBook Fart.

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

The comment you replied to specifically mentions that the features are not the same, in fact the Air is found lacking. So what is true for the Mac Pro may not be true for the Air.

Re:Wow...

[KZigurs]

Yes, they actually ship more of hi-end stuff so can afford to play around with reasonable margins. Strange thing when all the company has, bar two product lines, is considered high-end in pc world...

Re:Wow...

[BeanThere]

Yup, like I said, "all of the above" worked perfectly back on XP even on the same computer. But no, I couldn't leave well enough alone, thought "oh how bad can it be" when Vista came out, and I 'wanted to try the latest' :/ ... also needed a Vista machine so we could our own company's software working on it, so thought I'd use mine. In hindsight I should've just bought a separate system or maybe used Vista on VMWare only, just for testing and nothing else. Will definitely be trying harder to 'route around' Windows in future, probably either by buying more Mac systems for the office, or Linux (at least as an experiment, to see what extent we can live without Vista). The last time I've hated using Windows this much was in the days of crashy Windows 98, so it says a lot.

Re:Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

The mounting is proprietary on the few Dells I've worked on. More of an issue with the proprietary case than the power supply, but affects both. You don't even want to know how I mounted my cheap replacement 500W PS in my old Dell. Good riddance to that. This Lian Li case has served me much better.

Re:Wow...

[giminy]

Wow, you're right, Dell stopped doing that. See the "Dell Proprietary" section on this page: link, which indicates that they only did it between 1996 and 2000. Back when I did PC hardware/tech work, I used to have to replace Dell power supplies on occasion. I was cheap enough that I would rewire ATX supplies instead of buying insanely expensive Dell supplies ;-). I'm glad that they've switched to using standard power supplies!

Tie?

[um_atrain]

How is this a tie?
How can the lack of an optical drive, any expansion, etc be counted as so low.
Also, the X300 only has SSD as an option right now. Compare that to the SSD version of the MacBook Air, and the price is very comparable.

And, as others have mentioned, Hackintosh! They can both run Windows or OSX. Sure, one doesn't ship with the other, but seriously, its not like its that hard to figure out. OS should not have been factored in at all.

They used thicker + heavier + screen height as 3 separate points. That should all be 1 point.

I don't see how the MBA can even get close.

Re:Tie?

[SuperKendall]

How can the lack of an optical drive, any expansion, etc be counted as so low.

Well I see it the other way - how can it be a tie when the things you actually use a laptop for when traveling, work or applications, come out better on the Air with a faster processor and better battery life? Not to mention you have the Windows AV Processor tax making the thing even slower.

I have a Macbook Pro and have not used my optical drive once in about two years of travel (who travels with DVD's for example - I rip movies, since watching them on the optical drive is a huge power drain). I could easily do without it. Nor have I used the ExpressCard slot. For those that need it the Makbook Pro is stil there, but for those that do not they have an option that saves them valuable space and weight be removing things you almost never need.

I frankly don't see many people choosing the X300 over an Air, just on processor alone and battery life alone.

Re:Tie?

[dfghjk]

If the X300 ran OS X I certain would. The MBA is crippled by its terrible hard drive. Who cares what the processor speed is when the machine has ground to a halt waiting on disk (which OS X does all the time).

The X300 shows just how compromised the MBA is for the sake of being pretty. For the same weight, it offers comparable portability, superior screen, far superior IO, and far greater configuration flexibility. It's inability to run OS X is artificial; they both use substantially the same parts inside. If OS X is the primary factor, then the X300 doesn't matter but I'd rather have a MacBook. The X300 just shows that Apple could have produced a much more useful 3 pound notebook had its designers been as good as fanboys claim they are. This just shows, once again, that Apple is a boutique computer manufacturer---nothing but style over substance.

Re:Tie?

[xSauronx]

i, for one, would love a x300 (or even a t60) with linux. i can see the market for the air: people who need to do very little with a laptop. as for me, i do *all* of my computing with my laptop. i want it to be able to do things. i have no interest in a laptop thats smaller than my t40, nor in one that has fewer features. anything less and id rather just have a smartphone.

Re:Tie?

[SuperKendall]

I agree the hard drive is more limiting - if I get one it would be with the SSA.

But again all the things you list I simply do not see as limits at all based on how I have actually use my Macbook Pro, and I do see a need for better battery life and as fast a processor as practical. I do not think everyone could or should use the Air, but I'll bet a lot of people could if they thought about how they use a laptop.

Re:Tie?

[tgibbs]

I also don't see how this can be a tie. If you are looking for an ultralight, the X300 is larger, heavier, slower, and more expensive, with shorter battery life.

On the other hand, if you are looking for ports, DVD drive, and other features rarely used by travelers, then the proper comparison is to the MacBook--which is much cheaper and faster as well.

Re:Tie?

[KZigurs]

ahem... ever tried to propose idea of using hacked software to your IT dept?
Most users of both will be stylish ladies (or meterosexuals) just for the sake of having smallest IT gadget or actual road warriors (this marketing, think sales, think executive, think CEO) for whom it matters that it JustFuckinWorksWhenINeedIt.

Actually, running OS X is a fair point

[Anonymous Coward]

The Macbook Air can run OS X, Windows or Linux, while the X300 can only run Windows or Linux. It's not the old days of simply Windows OR OS X, now you can have on that'll do both, although I wouldn't put Vista on the Air as that'll suck up about 1/3 of the disk.

Re:Actually, running OS X is a fair point

[Anonymous Coward]

Turnabout is fair play.

Remember all those people who, when you suggested they consider a Mac, cried "but it doesn't run Windows!"

It's Lenovo, not IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this tagged IBM? Why is the IBM logo being used? Lenovo bought the IBM laptop division at the end of 2004. IBM has a piece of Lenovo, but IT"S NOT IBM ANYMORE!!!!!

Re:It's Lenovo, not IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Lenovo made the ThinkPads long before they "bought" the IBM Laptop devision. The "purchase" also included the right to use the IBM logo for a period of several years. It's still mostly the same people working on the same things. You'll never guess what company owns a huge stake in Lenovo.

IBM Sells Laptop Division is a better headline than IBM Moves Remaining US Laptop Division Jobs To China. Let's not forget that the Chinese government likes to buy from Chinese companies and that their market will soon make the US look like a backwater trading post.

Should should go look at one in person

[SuperKendall]

The X300 is like a tank, the Air like a sculpture, one is purpose built to get the job done, the other is purpose built to woo the eyes.

Have you ever held one? The Air is quite solid, for something so thin. I would have no hesitation lugging one around in a backpack ad not having to worry about treating it gently.

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[Dark-Dx]

It was an analogy, tool.

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[holden caufield]

The X300 is like a tank, the Air like a sculpture

It was a simile, you illiterate tool.

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[moderatorrater]

To be fair, Macintosh did name the notebook after the most insubstantial and least solid thing they could.

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[Samgilljoy]

The X300 is like a tank, the Air like a sculpture

It was a simile, you illiterate tool.

Actually, we have two similes and one quadripartite comparison which implies at least that the relationship between the two computers is analogous to that obtaining between tanks and sculpture.

Not that I'm calling anyone in the thread a tool, just saying, if we want to go crazy with the terminology...

Tools are good for something anyway, and we all know we're just fucking off by posting here. hehe

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[MichaelSmith]

To be fair, Macintosh did name the notebook after the most insubstantial and least solid thing they could.

Not exactly. I am still waiting for the Apple Vacuum.

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[SuperKendall]

To be fair, Macintosh did name the notebook after the most insubstantial and least solid thing they could.

Having just spent many days in Death Valley in the middle of days of fierce wind, I'm afraid I'm going to have to strongly disagree!!

Now if they had named it the Macbook Marshmallow...

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[greenguy]

A simile is like an analogy. Either could be compared to a metaphor.

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[Changa_MC]

To be fair, Macintosh did name the notebook after the most insubstantial and least solid thing they could.

Not exactly. I am still waiting for the Apple Vacuum.

I've heard it sucks though.

Re:Should should go look at one in person

[Anonymous Coward]

They called it the 'Microsoft Ship Date'?

"Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard"

[nrozema]

Perhaps if it said "Can't run Mac OS X Leopard. Winner: MacBook Air", the point would be less contentious. The ability of one system to run an OS that the other can't seems to be a clear advantage to me.

Re:"Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard"

[Altus]

that whole section of the article is poorly written but if you look at the whole list you can figure it out.

Whats the deal with the Leonovo anyway?

[Squapper]

It's just a tiny bit thinner than a Dell m1330

Re:Whats the deal with the Leonovo anyway?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a Dull?

Re:Whats the deal with the Leonovo anyway?

[SoupGuru]

I got a Dell m1330 too, but opted out of the SSD and went SATA instead... Got it for around $1300 refurbished. I haven't had any issues with it so far and I love it. Small, thin, LED backlit screen... it has a remote control built into it too. DVD drive, of course. All the bells and whistles, really. I find it odd that it doesn't get compared along side these other super-compact models.

Re:Whats the deal with the Leonovo anyway?

[Dark-Dx]

And you can get a m1330 starting at 999$ :)

Re:Whats the deal with the Leonovo anyway?

[Anonymous Coward]

A drive bay, so you can swap the optical out for a battery or hard drive adapter, higher resolution screen, gigabit ethernet, ThinkPad build quality, some people love the clit mouse, and yes, its a slight bit thinner.

Re:Whats the deal with the Leonovo anyway?

[2nd Post!]

Because for the size and weight it is closer to a MacBook than a MacBook Air?

For $1100 you get a refurbished MacBook with 2.2GHz CPU, 120GB drive, 8x DVD-RW, and 1GB of RAM. It is 5 pounds, though, which is 1 pound heavier than your M1330, which itself is 1 pound heavier than the MacBook Air and Lenovo X300.

roadwarriors

[cliffski]

Can we stop calling travelling salesmen 'road warriors'. Its a pathetic attempt to make very safe ordinary jobs done by people in suits sound like ninjas.

Re:roadwarriors

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah. How often do ninjas have to deal with NP-complete problems?

Re:roadwarriors

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it is marketed to people who do a lot of traveling in post apocalyptic Australia.

Re:roadwarriors

[Fear the Clam]

Can we stop calling travelling salesmen 'road warriors'.

Are we still allowed to call prostitutes 'choad warriors?'

Re:roadwarriors

[ozphx]

My custom CRM system has a custom field to let me know how many times I have shot the client, and vice-versa.

Re:roadwarriors

[Anonymous Coward]

SHHHH! All us consultants will get our panties in a bunch - we aren't 'salespeople', we are value-adding functional-area specialists who leverage best practices from fortune 500 ARGHHHHH!!!!! I CANT DO THIS!!! BRAIN EXPLODING!!!!!

Did you ever look at your life and realize you have become the tool you used to make fun of your parents for being?

I'm going home without my laptop and drinking myself into oblivion. Please excuse me.

Re:roadwarriors

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we stop calling travelling salesmen 'road warriors'. Its a pathetic attempt to make very safe ordinary jobs done by people in suits sound like ninjas.

Don't EVER call a ninja a road warrior. You'll be dead before you get to "ior".

Re:roadwarriors

[StarfishOne]

I read post eucalyptic Australia... won't anyone think of the poor Koala bears!

Re:roadwarriors

[Tibor the Hun]

You're just jaded because your education consisted of the "traveling salesman" problem, towers of Hanoi, and A*, instead of "Road Warrior (Mark II)", "Impregnable Hill Fortress of Hanoi", and "Lincoln MKX with Tom-Tom".
Friday's almost here dude, take your jaded attitude to Starbucks, and have some venti latte.

Re:roadwarriors

[proselyte_heretic]

Actually, I am a road warrior, and the laptop I take with me on the road is a Dell XPS M2010. Once I sharpen the edges to be razer sharp, I can decapitate multiple people with a single throw. Road warriors, like all warriors, rely on weight for their stopping power. Road ninjas on the other hand prefer the Macbook Air, because they are easier to smuggle into a secure location to be used as shuriken.

Re:roadwarriors

[Tikkun]

idk, some customers have a tendency to throw chairs when things don't go their way... ;)

Re:roadwarriors

[Anonymous Coward]

won't anyone think of the poor Koala bears

Pedantry levels rising... Can't stop myself... Urge too strong...

They are not fucking Bears for Fuck's sake!

Re:roadwarriors

[Antarius]

They're not fucking Bears, for Fuck's sake!

Which is just as well. Given the size difference, I'd imagine a Bear would split them in half. Ew!

Cheers,
Ant

Re:roadwarriors

[Hoplite3]

You haven't heard of the "Travelling Assassin" problem.

Re:roadwarriors

[Techman83]

Koala's are not bears, but you outta be careful of the drop bears!

Re:roadwarriors

[Paradise Pete]

You'll be dead before you get to "ior".

No kidding. You probably don't even get as far as Winnie the Pooh.

Re:roadwarriors

[StarfishOne]

I see you are correct. Please forgive this non-native English speaker and have faith in the fact that I, for one, will from now on refer to them as marsupial overlords. ;)

Re:roadwarriors

[Gorbag]

Recall that ROAD is an acronym for "Retired On Active Duty". A great description of most of the sales folks I know.

Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, processor.

[SuperKendall]

The Macbook air won in almost all the categories you would want from a laptop:

* Being able to use it from an airline seat (Macbook Air has a shorter screen and thinner base)
* Ait has longer battery life
* Air has faster processor

The only technical aspect I could see swaying some people, the X300 has more resolution. But not much more, and the processor/battery life in particular would seem to be key to me.

Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[SuperKendall]

It was an analogy, tool.

Obviously - but that doesn't make it correct, if the points it is based on are wrong. I'm not a tool but you just proved you're a fool.

Re:Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[puff3456]

I agree with you that the Air feels tough, and probably is, but it definitely looks like it was built with looks being the first priority, and given its lack of optical drive, network port, etc. I think that point is reinforced. That doesn't make it a bad choice or suggest that designing for looks is a bad motive but for someone who wants functionality it has its drawbacks.

Re:Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[Dark-Dx]

Wow... I thought the slashdot community was better. And this is my 2nd post.

Re:Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[wish bot]

I'm amazed that so many people here consider that excellence in engineering equates with heavy and clunky. To ME it looks like the Air was designed with THINNESS being the first priority, and here it exceeds anything else on the market. I don't need an optical drive when I'm on the road, and who the hell with a wireless laptop has even used the ethernet port in the last 3 years? For what it's intended for this laptop has no loss in functionality, and no compeditor. I'm truly astounded that so few people here get it - sometimes I think all the older guys who don't live in a basement anymore must have found some other forum to read...and no one told me!

Re:Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[SuperKendall]

Wow... I thought the slashdot community was better.

We are. You may want to go back to Digg where everyone agrees with you, and lives in blissful ignorance.

Not used to the targets of your "wit" fighting back? How sad that you have encountered someone who knows more than you at last.

Re:Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't need an optical drive when I'm on the road

'Cause installing a gray market DVD ripper on someone else's real computer and squeezing all the files through a wireless access point is super easy, and at just a couple hours per disc you'll be done before you know it--maybe even before a newer model comes out.

If you're going far and you're so short on space that you'll pay $700 to save eight millimeters, a mini album of DVDs will hold you a lot longer than one book.

who the hell with a wireless laptop has even used the ethernet port in the last 3 years?

WTF? I used my thinkpad's modem jack last weekend! Not everyone hangs around Starbucks all day being seen. Speaking of which, places without cat6 mostly don't offer power either, so how helpful is it to have wireless in a box with a locked-in battery that'll be dead in half a day?

Oh, yeah--plugging an access point into the network without begging special permission from the sysadmins has also been a serious breach of policy at my last three jobs.

Re:Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[Cederic]

hey. it might be heavy, it might be clunky, but the stuff Brunel built is still working just fine.

THAT's excellence in engineering.

(I do fall in love with sexy electronic devices too)

Re:Invalid analogy is not an analogy

[wish bot]

Fair enough point - although I'd class Brunel's engineering as light and elegant compared to his masonry & timber using rivals!

I love my 1+ year old Dell M1210

[Anonymous Coward]

It still does everything that I need and then some. I see NO reason to buy anything else anytime soon.
  Go Dell!

Shotgun

[slapyslapslap]

I read the title, and for a very brief moment thought I was going to see someone take a Mossberg pump shotgun to a MacBook Air. That would have been sweet!

Bigger, more expensive, has more features

[edwardpickman]

Well duh. That's rediculous for a review. We aren't talking splitting hairs a few dollars more it's a lot more expensive and it's larger and heavier and it's not all pluses since the Mac has more drive space. It feels more like a "Gee I prefer windows" review than a head to head match up. Until some one has a machine of a similar size and weight for a similar price then reviews are pointless. The Macbook Air does exactly what it was designed to do. You simply can't install a DVD drive inside a machine of that size with current technology but give them a few years and they'll likely be the first to do it. Remember the first iMacs had external drives. These days you pull them out of the box and plug them in and they're smaller. Each machine reviewed does a good job for what it was designed for but they are very different machines with different goals. Macbook is the smallest and lightest and it's a solid machine not a radically under powered system just so they could have bragging rights. You want to know the winner? The consumer because the Macbook Air is driving the market so the PC makers will keep pushing to copy it. By then Apple will have the next generation out but the point is everyone will benefit from them pushing the envelope. when it comes down to it it's not fair comparing PCs to Macs because most people are branded and they'll always show a preference. There are advantages to both so once again the consumer wins because there's choice. Remember the dark days of beige computers? For a lot of years they were like model Ts, you can have a computer any color so long as it's beige. A few vendors started selling black cases then suddenly you had cases available that looked like a Rebook shoe, colors and style. We need more companies pushing the break the model. The Macbook Air fits easily inside a brief case without taking up much space. It's more like throwing a thick notepad in the briefcase. That was the intent and they pulled it off and made it afordable. I find it funny that there were complaints about the price on the Macbook Air and now people are touting a more expensive machine that's bigger and heavier.

It's just that...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why they couldn't have included the manilla envelope in EITHER product release? Why should I have to go out and buy one when they clearly advertise how well they work with a manilla envelope.

And it had better be one with the little strings to easily open and shut it...

Expensive notebook on a plane?

[damn_registrars]

I found this an interesting comment from TFA:

Also, the ThinkPad's screen, when opened, stands significantly higher than the Mac's, so it is less usable in a coach seat on an airplane when the person in front of you reclines.
Really, how many people who are willing to spend $3,000 on a laptop are flying coach? I spent barely 1/4 of that on my laptop, and I do fly coach. If I had 4x as much income available, I think I would at least spring for business class if I had to do work on my laptop while flying...

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[imsabbel]

I do?
A single buisness class flight Europe->West Coast and back can buy you 3 macbook airs.
The total additional cost economy->buiness amounts to about $250-300 per hour you are in the plane. For that money, i can endure it. A good laptop, otoh, will be in use for many hundred hours. At that point, the price can really be worth it.

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[vought]

Really, how many people who are willing to spend $3,000 on a laptop are flying coach? Quite a few, actually. And the users with $3000.00 laptops whose businesses force them to fly coach are possibly even more numerous. Most laptops I see on business travel lately (about 50k miles on domestic flights since mid-January) are in the $2-3,000.00 range. I see a lot more MacBook Pros than I used to, and quite a few high-end latitudes. Occasionally a Lenovo, but they're actually rare in airports and domestic flights.

Clearly your philosophy comes from the conspicuous consumption school or spending. There are virtually no mid-class "business" seats for domestic travel in the U.S. On the vast majority of flights, only two-tier seating is available, and from my experience, First Class is filled with upgraders for two weeks from the flight date.

Not sure what airline or where you fly, but I'd pass along a bit of advice that has served me well: "Fly coach now so you can fly first class later."

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[bram]

no you wouldn't :)

I've spent 2800 (well minus taxes) Euro on my MacBook Pro. I fly economy class.
Business class is ridiculously expensive.
Also laptops last longer than a flying business 2 times.

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[cerberusss]

2800 for an Apple laptop? A plain Dell Vostro laptop costs 329 euros, also exluding VAT. Now that means you can buy eight (count 'em) Dells for your Apple laptop. But what makes this (admitted) beauty so special for you?

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[reidconti]

Did you just ask why a MacBook Pro costs more than a low-end Dell Vostro?

Does that question even need an answer?

Wow.

And more on-topic, I, for one, am all for buying quality, pricey gear, but I hate spending money on services. If a coach ticket costs $300 and a first class ticket costs $2300, all I can think is "man, I can get some cool gear for the $2000 I save by having slightly less room for my knees to breathe for a few hours." It's even better if you just take a sleeping pill and check out.

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[cerberusss]

I'm just saying it's bloody 8 times as expensive. And I wondered what aspect of that Apple laptop is eight times better than the admittedly cheap-ass Dell. That aspect will differ between persons, but it's difficult for me to see what he's doing on that laptop that makes a difference.

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[LKM]

3000 bucks isn't that much for a laptop. My first notebook cost twice that much; that was when I still was a student. Back then, I never would have bought anything but the cheapest plane ticket, but having a notebook to take to classes was worth my money (actually, my parents' money :-).

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure what airline or where you fly, but I'd pass along a bit of advice that has served me well: "Fly coach now so you can fly first class later."

I prefer my solution - pay economy prices, fly first class.

(Having a sibling in a decent job at a major international airline? Priceless!)

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[vought]

(Having a sibling in a decent job at a major international airline? Priceless!) I'll grant you your priceless position, but it's hardly evidence in light of what the rest of us (tm) have to put up with.

Still, congrats on being well-connected when it comes to siblings who work with airlines!

Re:Expensive notebook on a plane?

[bram]

The 2800 was inclusive of VAT.

I don't need 8 Dell's. :)
They look like my Powerbook I bought in 2000.

What makes this one special?

One package to rule them all:
- big screen 17", nice wide
- built-in webcam, you don't know how handy it is until you have it
- built to make things intuitive, no pieces in the wrong places, no searching for a thing (port, button) where it should be
- OS X; although proprietary software (that's my only gripe) a nice "alternative" for X on Unix, a consistent UI.
- the usuals: quality hardware, firewire 800, firewire 400, backlit keyboard, scrolling mousepad (yes the whole thing), ...
- magsafe adapter (magnetic connection for poweradapter, when you pull the wire it nicely lets go without pulling the computer on the floor)

So basically the Apple User Interface, hard and software.

I've used linux exclusively (on my personal computers) for the last 10 years until 2006.
When I bought it I was happy to see that things just worked together. Drag and drop between your gui and a terminal, ... things like that.

And when I stop liking it, I'll just install linux/freebsd on it and I have a power beast :)

I really don't see the advantage here...

[ogl_codemonkey]

I'm really not sure I see the advantage of this point:
  Has USB Wireless. Winner: Lenovo X300.

Missing are Fujitsu's lightweigh Lifebooks

[postbigbang]

I usually use Mac portables, but the ultra-lightweight, while a decided gift, also means reduced functionality. I don't want to load my stuff via a wireless connnection; it's slow and ties up the resources used.

The Lenovo when compared to the MB Air SSD version comes out nearly the same in price as might be expected, and for good Cost-of-Goods reasons.

But if you want to use a Fujitsu Lifebook, you can get a tablet-based notebook, airline usable, all the ports and guts, and a reasonably decent (Lenovo and Apple are known for theirs, sorry Dell users) and run whatever you want if it's Windows or Linux Something.

It's very cute and sexy, and if that's why you buy Apple, you'll be happy. Still, it's a stunted machine, and the Lenovo, while pretty cool, is pretty expensive, too. The Lifebook ain't cheap, but it's a contender here.

Re:Missing are Fujitsu's lightweigh Lifebooks

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I saw one of those cute Lifebooks today. That keyboard is also going to be a case of reduced functionality for some people.

MacBookAir = Pbbbbth

[barbam]

For business users connecting to corporate networks the MacBook Air is about as useful as the Pet Rock.

For home users, the MacBook Air is much 'sexier' and therefore superior --- that is, if you buy into the closed-source Apple fan-boy world.

Re:MacBookAir = Pbbbbth

[wish bot]

Most business I know prefer external users to go through a wireless router and then VPN into the network rather than plug an unsanitised laptop directly into their whole infrastructure. If you're at _your_ office, then you've got a usb hub on the desk with the ethernet usb dongle. Big deal.

Re:MacBookAir = Pbbbbth

[Cederic]

I need to buy a USB hub with ethernet dongle for each of the offices I use?

Some of us don't have one desk in one building in one city. That's why we have laptops in the first place.

Re:MacBookAir = Pbbbbth

[wish bot]

Use wifi much then? ;)

Re:MacBookAir = Pbbbbth

[Cederic]

On work laptops? Nope, it's disabled. The joys of working for financial institutions..

product review writing

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I just love the style of these product reviewer types. They have to keep coming up with strange turns of expression so that you don't realise you're reading the same old media release again and again.

eg
small hard disk - 'a relatively paltry file-storage capacity'
too expensive - 'a hefty price tag'

My sig

[snoyberg]

I believe my sig speaks for itself here.

Walt's damning with faint praise

[goombah99]

Damning with faint praise. While he is appearing even handed he says the bottom line.

Smaller disk (with zero advantages on speed or battery)
shorter battery life
thicker and heavier.
slower CPU
80% higher price.
Screen is awkward for airline seats.
No lit keyboard

What does it offer in return to make up? You get to lug a DVD player, you get one higher resolution screen mode, and you get optional GPS support. Whooptee doo.

The Air has dongles for Ethernet and you can bring along a USB powered DVD if you really need constantly while it on travel. You mean you really are not bringing along a should bag you could slip a DVD player into? Good then you don't need that DVD with you all the time, like say in the conference room where being a pound lighter, and having a lit KB and much longer battery will make all the difference.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[spoco2]

Hang on a sec, you're being ridiculously pro Mac here and overlooking a lot of things:

  Is thicker than MacBook Air. Winner: MacBook Air.
  Really, who gives two craps about thickness... it's all marketing from Apple. Who has honestly gone "Gee wizz, this laptop is just too darn THICK for my needs!"? Pretty much no-one... where does it being super, super thin make for a big boon? Any bag you're going to carry said laptop in is going to be able to handle another centimeter or so... geeze.

  Is heavier than MacBook Air. Winner: MacBook Air.
  Weight does matter, indeed... but when it gets to a certain point, it doesn't any more, light enough is light enough, unless you have some sort of musculature atrophy that makes you unable to lift the heaviest version of the notebook at a whole... ooh, 3.5 pounds. Geeze... from his review: "is still very thin and light. It's under an inch thick and even at its heaviest is only 3.5 pounds." So, these points are just mindless waffle.

  Has less battery life in both tests and normal use (so much for SSD.) Winner: MacBook Air.
  This does indeed have baring on actual use, I give full points to this one.

  Has way more ports. Winner: Lenovo X300.
  This is very important, yet you just ignore the need for a large number of us to have different ports for different uses.

  Has built-in DVD possibility. Winner: Lenovo X300.
  YOU say "Whooptee doo." Big plus for me... my laptop MUST have a built in DVD drive as I use it as an entertainment station for the kids while we're away, and having a separate drive hanging off on a usb cable is a big NO NO. You also contradict yourself with for the Lenovo "You get to lug a DVD player", and yet for the Apple you say "you can bring along a USB powered DVD". Which is better, one that's in built, out of the way, doesn't need the external casing, or one hidden away in the body of the machine... if you NEED or WANT a DVD player (which a LOT of us still do), then it's a major failing to not have one in the unit. Yes, I can see certain people who'll have little need for one, but don't off handly say it's not a good thing.

  Has SSD drive built-in. Winner: Lenovo X300.
  YOU SAY "Smaller disk (with zero advantages on speed or battery)" which is ignoring the robustness of a solid state drive, nothing to do with speed/battery... missing the point entirely.

  Has WiMax connectivity. Winner: Lenovo X300.
  I like how you ignore this, which considering that the Apple lacks drives and needs to share others, would seem to be something it could do with, data transfer wise.

  Has USB Wireless. Winner: Lenovo X300.
  While this isn't widespread yet, how cool to not have to plug in new devices? Very nice.

  Has GPS location-finding. Winner: Lenovo X300.
  YOU say "Whooptee doo." Yeah, just discount something many, many people would find handy.

  Has higher screen resolution. Winner: Lenovo X300.
  You say "Whooptee doo." Again... um... higher resolution is a BIG plus for many people, yet you just discount it... well done.

  Has a screen that stands up higher, leaving less viewing angle while travelling on plane. Winner: MacBook Air.
  Yeah, valid point here, no two ways about that.

  Has slower processor. Winner: MacBook Air.
  Except "In my tests, the X300 performed very well, even though it has a relatively slow processor, slower than the MacBook's." So, a bit of a moot point it would seem.

  Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard. Winner: MacBook Air.
  This SO doesn't apply to most people... SOME want OSX, OTHERS want Vista/XP, you can't put this as a carte blanch statement.

It comes down to what you want a laptop for... and looking at what YOU deem to be important and applying that to EVERYONE is such an immature attitude.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Otter]

Really, who gives two craps about thickness...

People who have to work in airplane seats, i.e. exactly the target audience of the Lenovo.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Trogre]

Playstation or Wii [youtube.com]

Heh yeah I like that PS3 vs Wii ad too. I think it sums up the differences nicely.

One of them is cute and shallow, a novelty bimbo that I'd soon lose interested in. And probably infected with God knows what.

The other one looks like she might actually have some substance, can handle sophisticated fun and will probably age better.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[p0tat03]

I've never ever had trouble opening my MacBook Pro in any airline seat... It seems to me 1" is plenty thin enough to be an airline workhorse... Any thinner IMHO is a bit pointless.

I agree with GP, overall the Lenovo is looking like the better machine. More ports (yay!), better resolution (a small bonus, IMHO), WiMax integration (meh right now, may become important later), and integrated disc drive (yay!), is a lot of pluses, considering its only penalties are being thicker, and having slightly less battery life.

About the only real place where the MBA wins over the X300 is the weight. Sure, 0.5 lbs don't seem like a lot, but then again, people said that about the 2 lb difference between the MacBook and MacBook Air. Weight does matter for people who are traveling with the device ALL DAY.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[poity]

How does thickness affect someone working in an airplane seat? I can see depth being a factor -- a wider, more rectangular chassis being preferred so your wrists aren't pressed up against your stomach as you type.

But thickness? It's not even a concern.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Trogre]

Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard. Winner: MacBook Air.

I find that category confusing.

So... the MacBook Air wins the "Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard" category? So it "Doesn't use Mac OS X" better than the Lenovo?
Fair enough I guess. Not that it matters to me - whichever one I get will have its HD scratched and Linux installed over it anyway.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[SanityInAnarchy]

my laptop MUST have a built in DVD drive as I use it as an entertainment station for the kids while we're away, and having a separate drive hanging off on a usb cable is a big NO NO.

For this one, I'd rip a few discs worth, then pack away the DVD drive until I'm done watching them. If you're not re-encoding, it's fairly easy to rip just the movie (not the special features), and even with the 64 gig solid-state, that's still a good 4-5 movies. Figure, also, that it's a lot less wear on the discs (if you're bringing originals) to rip them in some stationary place, then put them away for the car (or plane) ride.

You say "Whooptee doo." Again... um... higher resolution is a BIG plus for many people, yet you just discount it... well done.

True, but the same applies to this as to OS choice. The Baby Boomers hate it when I turn their resolution up, because it makes everything smaller and harder to read, and they don't know how to set resolution or font size in most places. This is less relevant for OS X -- if they can figure out how to use the awesome zooming feature.

This SO doesn't apply to most people...

I think it does apply to a lot of people -- I'd imagine there are far fewer people who don't have a preference than people who prefer one to the other. But unless you really don't care about OS X, it makes sense to have the option, and Parallels if you need XP programs.

Otherwise, good points.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[salnikov]

Really, who gives two craps about thickness... it's all marketing from Apple. Who has honestly gone "Gee wizz, this laptop is just too darn THICK for my needs!"? Pretty much no-one... where does it being super, super thin make for a big boon? Any bag you're going to carry said laptop in is going to be able to handle another centimeter or so... geeze.

But if they would make it thin enough you could stick five of them in your average bag :)

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[spoco2]

Errr. nope.

The issue with the Lenovo on planes is he's saying the screen is taller than the mac, so you can't open it out as much without it hitting the seat in front, but that's nothing to do with thickness.

It's not an issue.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[earthbound kid]

You make some good points, but:

Has built-in DVD possibility. Winner: Lenovo X300.
    YOU say "Whooptee doo." Big plus for me... my laptop MUST have a built in DVD drive as I use it as an entertainment station for the kids while we're away, and having a separate drive hanging off on a usb cable is a big NO NO. You also contradict yourself with for the Lenovo "You get to lug a DVD player", and yet for the Apple you say "you can bring along a USB powered DVD". Which is better, one that's in built, out of the way, doesn't need the external casing, or one hidden away in the body of the machine... if you NEED or WANT a DVD player (which a LOT of us still do), then it's a major failing to not have one in the unit. Yes, I can see certain people who'll have little need for one, but don't off handly say it's not a good thing.

I don't you really need the DVD drive with you when you're on the road. Just use Handbrake or some other software to rip the DVD to your HD, then you don't have to worry about your kids getting peanut butter on the disc. Or you can get an iPod or other portable video player so you don't have to worry about wasting your battery on movies.

Has WiMax connectivity. Winner: Lenovo X300.
    I like how you ignore this, which considering that the Apple lacks drives and needs to share others, would seem to be something it could do with, data transfer wise.

WiMax isn't meant for local networking. It is to Wifi as cellular phone is to portable phone. The MacBook already has 802.11n, which is decently fast. That said, yes, having it would be better than not.

Has USB Wireless. Winner: Lenovo X300.
    While this isn't widespread yet, how cool to not have to plug in new devices? Very nice.

It's called Bluetooth. I haven't plugged a mouse into my PowerBook for the last four years. Similarly, most printers can be either plugged into the network directly or plugged into the USB port on an Apple Wifi router (I don't know if other companies make routers that do this yet). So, the device that will take advantage of Wireless USB are going to have to be things that need a lot of bandwidth, but don't use Wifi. That rules out hard drives, since there are tons of wireless NASes on the market. So, basically it just leaves iPods/other media players and digital cameras, but already some of those use Wifi. So, while WUSB is a good idea, and I wish it luck, it's not such a big deal. It's just a minor evolution of existing standards.

Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard. Winner: MacBook Air.
    This SO doesn't apply to most people... SOME want OSX, OTHERS want Vista/XP, you can't put this as a carte blanch statement.

The MacBook is more versatile. If you want to run XP/Vista, you just need to install it. With a PC laptop, you can only run OS X illegally, which is sure to be buggy and lead to headaches.

One more point for people on both sides:

I've heard a lot of complaining about the tiny size of the MBA's hard drive. And while that's true, what people are ignoring is the fact that we now have wireless NASes. So, just put a terabyte in your living room, store your media library on that, access it wirelessly from your laptop, and when you go on the road, just sync it to a portable media player first and keep your serious computing separate from your entertainment.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[unoengborg]

My guess is that even the most frequent travellers will use their laptop more outside an aeroplane than in one, and if you are not in an airplane the larger Lenovo screen is most likely to be preferred by most people. Another absolute showstopper for the Mac is the lack of ports. Dongles breaks, can be misplaced having a real ethernet port is a big bonus. So is having a DVD player, not only for entertainment but it makes it simple to reinstall the OS in case of a virus atack or some other mishap. If I was to give some important presentation away from home I would certainly carry backup media both of my presentation, and the software needed to give it, including the OS. Naturally you can use an external DVD player for the Mac but then the advantage of being small and light is lost.

As for the unlit keyboard, X300 has Think Lihgt a little diode lamp at the top of the screen that gives enough light to make it possible to handle in the dark

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

>Really, who gives two craps about thickness...
>
>People who have to work in airplane seats, i.e. exactly the target audience of the Lenovo.

If you're going to drag airplane functionality into the equation, what do you do with the Mac Air when it's battery takes a dive in the middle of your flight and you don't have access to AC power?

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[mdwh2]

Just to add to your comments...

Is thicker than MacBook Air. Winner: MacBook Air.

Either way, the Lenovo X300 is still under an inch thick, apparently.

Is heavier than MacBook Air. Winner: MacBook Air.

But in fact, the Lenovo is 2.93lbs, whilst the Air is 3lbs! Whilst this does mean less battery life, this is the weight category, not the battery life category, so it's a bit misleading to ignore the option of the light model (the fact that it has no DVD drive is, of course, irrelevant).

Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard. Winner: MacBook Air.

Either you want to run OS X, in which case you're restricted to Apple anyway, or you don't, in which case this point isn't an advantage.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[geekoid]

"Really, who gives two craps about thickness."
I do, as does it's target demographic(not me)

"it doesn't any more"
I suggest you take up hiking. then you will realize that on any long haul every Oz matters.
Plus I think it's light weight is cool. Fantastic was the word I used when I held one.
Again, BIG plus to the target demographic.

"This is very important, yet you just ignore the need for a large number of us to have different ports for different uses.
"

SSD is about power savings, not speed.

Why? It's better to ahve blue tooth then cables. Cables are awkward, cables add weight, untangling cables before a meeting is not good. Setting the device next to it and just ahve it work is a big aw factor at any Upper Management meeting.

Built in DVD player isn't possible for there goal. Yes it would be nice, but children use isn't a target demographic.

OTOH, have a separate device for the children to use means they are less likely to break your computer.

    While this isn't widespread yet, how cool to not have to plug in new devices? Very nice."

The WHOLE POINT OF THE AIR!THATS a feature of the AIR.

" YOU say "Whooptee doo." Yeah, just discount something many, many people would find handy."
I ehar that on slashdot, but I don't know any non geek that want's that. That said, it would be a useless feature to the target demographic.

The Air performed better. The other did 'well' so don't down play this weaknes, and it's a big one when it's been in use for a month.

" This SO doesn't apply to most people... SOME want OSX, OTHERS want Vista/XP, you can't put this as a carte blanch statement."

All of which can be done on an Air.

Winner: Not You.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, who gives two craps about thickness... it's all marketing from Apple. Who has honestly gone "Gee wizz, this laptop is just too darn THICK for my needs!"?

Uh, everybody who'd used a laptop prior to the mid-1990's? My first laptop was a Pentium-166, and pretty darn thick; I'd rather go back to a P-166 than a laptop that thick again.

Thin means I can put it in my bag with a sketchpad, or a Wacom tablet, or another book, or anything else I want. Size is the single factor that determines whether I can carry it or not, which defines whether I have it around to use or not. This is the number one most important thing a notebook computer can do! I don't get why you're downplaying it, unless you keep your laptop in a bag-of-holding.

Weight does matter, indeed... but when it gets to a certain point, it doesn't any more, light enough is light enough, unless you have some sort of musculature atrophy that makes you unable to lift the heaviest version of the notebook at a whole... ooh, 3.5 pounds.

You're right. Once it's under 10 or 15 pounds, it doesn't matter. Why anybody cares about laptop computer weight today is a mystery. It's not like you can't lift it.

It reminds me of the Israeli study to find out what exercise was best for cardiovascular fitness. Of all the people they tested (civilian, military, olympian, etc.), the best was the mailman, who walked a few miles a day carrying a few dozen pounds of weight. Is your laptop bag more than 35 pounds? Are you just *too* fit? Unless you answered "yes", you have no reason to complain about the weight of your laptop. It's great exercise, and it's not preventing you from doing anything.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

screen is not larger. virus attack? what's that. if you really feel the need to reinstall the OS while on travel is higher than a meteor strike then you're using the wrong OS.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Stu Charlton]

Really, who gives two craps about thickness... it's all marketing from Apple. Who has honestly gone "Gee wizz, this laptop is just too darn THICK for my needs!"? Pretty much no-one...

How many people feel lust for a phone? Pretty much no one... until the iPhone.

How many people feel lust for a laptop? Pretty much no one... until they see something with sex appeal.

It's bizarre and somewhat telling about how many regular, non-technical people stop and ask about the iPhone if they someone use it. A similar effect is happening with the MacBook Air (zomg it's so thin! wow that's light! Look at how bright the screen is! Hey that SSD makes the apps snappy!)

The MacBook Air is the two-seater roadster of laptops -- a blast to drive, eye-catching, not overly practical, and sneer-inducing among those who want a larger, or faster, or more practical model.

Not saying it's universal, just saying that Apple seems to be tapping into a lust-factor that one hasn't seen with consumer electronics in some time, if ever.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[wish bot]

Hang on a sec, you're being ridiculously pro Mac here and overlooking a lot of things:

We could return that right back at you - first you suggest that the thickness of the laptop doesn't matter and the reduction in processor speed doesn't matter, then you say things like YOU say "Whooptee doo." Big plus for me... my laptop MUST have a built in DVD drive as I use it as an entertainment station for the kids while we're away...

Well, I've got news for you - thickness and weight are really important to people who travel loads, and have other things - like you know...work...to take with them instead of DVD's etal. So the Air isn't for you. It sounds like the Lenvovo isn't either. Get over it!

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[wish bot]

Err - Sorry! Didn't mean to use bold tags at all up there - no idea where that came from! I wasn't trying to shout at you - Sorry!!

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Nicolay77]

OTHERS want Vista Whooptee doo????

Anyway, masochism is a valid private behavior of many people, and I will respect it. U_U

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Shag]

my laptop MUST have a built in DVD drive as I use it as an entertainment station for the kids while we're away, and having a separate drive hanging off on a usb cable is a big NO NO. Would you seriously letting your kids watch DVDs on a laptop for which you paid a minimum of $2700, and quite possibly well over $3000? :)

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

Five MBAs is $9K plus tax. Screw the bag, for that you could buy a couple real desktop replacements and a car for hauling them around.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

It comes down to what you want a laptop for... and looking at what YOU deem to be important and applying that to EVERYONE is such an immature attitude.

And why does this not apply to you? The funny thing is, it doesn't apply to Mossberg because he is a big tech writer and people read his stuff specifically to get his opinion.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[hab136]

How many people feel lust for a phone? Pretty much no one... until the iPhone.

A possibly better example would be the Motorola RAZR, which was nothing special - except it was ridiculously thin. It sold (and continues to sell) like hotcakes, even when it was initially $500+.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[hotfireball]

Big plus for me... my laptop MUST have a built in DVD drive as I use it as an entertainment station for the kids while we're away, and having a separate drive hanging off on a usb cable is a big NO NO.

Dude, I used to behave this way exactly 5 years ago, when I was too dumb to use WiFi. Now I have very small cute Linux machine smaller than Mac Mini, that is connected to my big Sony screen and it does pre-buffers DVDs from my online home storage (oh, just a few terabytes, not as much as your Lenovo has...). I can operate it remotely using my mobile through Bluetooth and software is MythTV. :-)

P.S. Lenovo is using at its best just a fugly Windows. Thanks, for *desktop* I'd stay with OSX and build another home Linux server on some low-powered hardware, like Kurobox for example.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not so much the thickness that matters in that case but the size of the machine when opened (in most cases the size of the screen).

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true! I always wanted to sit on a Cray supermachine and I'm sure you would too--!

funny how those things were the excact opposite of a laptop^^

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[bball99]

quote:

Who has honestly gone "Gee wizz, this laptop is just too darn THICK for my needs!"?

end_quote:

- you've obviously never used a Dell Inspiron 7500? :-)

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[cerelib]

You can get the full DVD by ripping it to an iso file and mounting the file as a virtual device. You can do this in Windows with either commercial software or a free, unsupported, utility from Microsoft that hides in the deepest corners of the Microsoft download site. I don't know about OS X, but in Linux/Unix it is a pretty trivial task.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[hjf]

So there are no power adapters for planes? Good thing you posted AC, you knew someone was gonna mod you down, fucker.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[painandgreed]

Is thicker than MacBook Air. Winner: MacBook Air.
Really, who gives two craps about thickness... it's all marketing from Apple. Who has honestly gone "Gee wizz, this laptop is just too darn THICK for my needs!"? Pretty much no-one... where does it being super, super thin make for a big boon? Any bag you're going to carry said laptop in is going to be able to handle another centimeter or so... geeze.

Is heavier than MacBook Air. Winner: MacBook Air.
Weight does matter, indeed... but when it gets to a certain point, it doesn't any more, light enough is light enough, unless you have some sort of musculature atrophy that makes you unable to lift the heaviest version of the notebook at a whole... ooh, 3.5 pounds. Geeze... from his review: "is still very thin and light. It's under an inch thick and even at its heaviest is only 3.5 pounds." So, these points are just mindless waffle.

'Mindless waffle' to you maybe, to those of us that have to put our notebooks in a bag with other books and items and then carry them around for significant periods of time (such as even through airports while rushing to make a connection) both are very important. I carry my laptop to work everyday along with my other work. Those fractions of an inch and pounds add up quickly and I am grateful for every little bit I don't have to lug around.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

How many people feel lust for a phone? Pretty much no one... until the iPhone.

There was a market for overpriced lust-inducing fashion accessory celphones for at least 10 years before the iPhone came along.

Apple seems to be tapping into a lust-factor that one hasn't seen with consumer electronics in some time, if ever.

The people lining up around the block for the last year to buy the Nintendo Wii would like to disagree with you on that

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Cederic]

You think he should buy a second laptop to take away with him just so the kids can watch DVDs without using the laptop he'll be taking anyway?

(lets ignore the discussion on whether the children should be able to survive sans DVD for another day. After all, nobody's suggesting he might not need the laptop either..)

she/he btw, I haven't a clue and it's not particularly relevant

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Cederic]

So when you're away with the kids do you take your small cute Linux machine and your multi-terabyte home storage with you?

Because if you don't, you've completely failed to address the particular need of the person you're calling dumb.

(and if you do, you're still suggesting a multi-machine solution to someone seeking a single machine answer)

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

"Just use Handbrake or some other software to rip the DVD to your HD, then you don't have to worry about your kids getting peanut butter on the disc. Or you can get an iPod or other portable video player so you don't have to worry about wasting your battery on movies."

Yes, do everything you're doing right now differently in a way that doesn't fit your needs as well as the way you were doing it did. For more money.

Exactly the Mac philosophy. Bend way the hell out of shape to accomodate Apple and then claim they are amazing because they fit your needs so perfectly.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[McCart42]

no one is carrying the macbook air in their jeans pocket. what's a centimeter of thickness when you're dealing with a paper-sized object?

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

There's an amazing piece of technology I've been seeing off and on for a while now that helps get your carryon bag through the airport, or the train, or really anywhere--without you lifting it! Little round thing, I think it's called something like "the Wii".

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

"But if they would make it thin enough you could stick five of them in your average bag :)"

Flash LAN party!

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[earthbound kid]

Dude, HandBrake is free. Using a DVD drive wastes battery life. A lot of people rip their DVD collections just for that reason alone. Plus, again, kids like to accidentally ruin discs. Even if you use a PC, HandBrake is a good idea.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[hotfireball]

So when you're away with the kids do you take your small cute Linux machine and your multi-terabyte home storage with you?

LOL! You make me laugh, man. You are funny. Yes, I take my machine with me, full of movies already pre-buffered. The thing is called Visual Hub. Google it for your own information. And kids (I have two of them) actually use Sony 2000-PSP, which is way better for them, because apart of movies they also can play amazing games and surf the network, using Skype, listening to Internet radio, watchint TV, while keeping the device in the pocket. Still nobody need DVD thing ever. Besides, you can purchase external DVD drive for you, but I am really sure you will need no one right after you change your way of thinking. :-)

There is also a thing, which is called iPod Touch. So if you go portable, then go REALLY portable and have things tiny and neat. The iPod Touch brings you amazing video quality, just excellent when you are on airplane or something. And if you go watch movie at home, then forget the idea watch it on 13" notebook, but watch it on big large comfortable screen with nice surround sound instead.

P.S. And I did not call you dumb. I was dumb... :-) So stay portable and cool. Cheers.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Cederic]

You mistake me for someone else. I have no kids. I was merely highlighting that you weren't addressing the issue that was being raised.

Your answer to that issue is indeed a multiple machine approach. Shrug, it clearly works for you.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[SanityInAnarchy]

Or you can simply copy the files off the DVD and point VLC at the VIDEO_TS folder.

The reason I would use other tools is, mplayer -dumpstream, in particular, is a quick and dirty hack to grab just the movie and nothing else. Remember, we're still dealing with a 64-gig hard drive.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[ncryptd]

my laptop MUST have a built in DVD drive as I use it as an entertainment station for the kids while we're away This sentence alone indicates that you're not Apple's target market for the MacBook Air.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Stu Charlton]

The people lining up around the block for the last year to buy the Nintendo Wii would like to disagree with you on that

My point was about non-technical people finding lust with things that usually only geeks loved.

I suppose video consoles might qualify, though it seems pretty geeky to line up around the block (says the guy that did so for WoW-TBC in Jan 07)...

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[hotfireball]

Your answer to that issue is indeed a multiple machine approach.

Rather multiple gadgets approach, which is already approach of almost everybody. And I suppose it what MacBook Air is built for. As any other sub-notebook in the World.

Re:Walt's damning with faint praise

[Anonymous Coward]

originally they were selling it for that much?! why are people so dumb, i always felt that phone was a cheap piece of shit. the buttons sucked and just felt like any other cruddy phone. talk about marketing...

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[p0tat03]

Ehhh... I'm a hardcore Mac user (MacBook Pro for me)... and I disagree. One of the things that really kills me about the MacBook Air is the TOTAL lack of ports. You know, Apple was the first one to jump on the USB bandwagon, using USB HID peripherals when everyone else was still shipping them with PS/2 ports. But now, they ship a laptop with only TWO ports? The ONE thing I hate about my MacBook Pro (and the MacBook) is that it only has two USB ports, necessitating ANY serious user to get a USB hub (oh great, ANOTHER thing in the laptop bag). And now we're looking at... ONE PORT?

That to me is a dealbreaker. Especially considering that in order to use the disc drive you must plug it directly into the laptop, meaning you cannot use ANY USB PERIPHERALS while using the disc drive. Have you heard anything so ludicrous in your life?

I appreciate that Apple is concerned about the form of our electronics and not just the function, but sometimes they do take it too far. When form compromises functionality, you know you're doing something wrong!

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[diamondsw]

As much as I like the MacBook Air, you neglect what happens when you get to the meeting:
  * You need to get something off a CD or DVD
  * You need to plug in ethernet as well as a USB flash drive
  * The resolution of the X300 is much, much better

If I had my way, my next laptop upgrade at work would be an X300 (I have a T60 now), and an additional personal laptop would be an Air (I have a MacBook Pro now). Toss in the high-res screen from the X300, and the Air could easily *be* my next laptop.

I can't wait for the Onion Article

[suburbanmediocrity]

The Apple Slice. A razor thin laptop with a bunch of bloody smiling fingerless people.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Maudib]

"Standing up taller" is actually a double edged sword for using on an airline seat. If you are 6'4 and have large thick legs (muscular or otherwise) then a taller screen makes it harder to use. When the passenger in front puts their seat back then the taller screen has to be bent forward; because you are so tall you end up looking fown on the leading edge of the cover and cant see sh*t on the screen.

You just didn't get it

[JamesRose]

The consumer because the Macbook Air is driving the market so the PC makers will keep pushing to copy it. By then Apple will have the next generation out but the point is everyone will benefit from them pushing the envelope.

For Gawds sakes man! Steve Jobs must have spent hours pushing that machine in and out of that bloody envelope just to illustrate stretch it get with the programme!

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[theconartist]

I would say one of the big things the X300 has going for it is the TrackPoint. Trackpads are very annoying and inefficient in comparison.

I could never go back to a normal trackpad laptop after using a thinkpad. I even prefer it over a regular mouse, apart from gaming.

Portability

[nbucking]

Pardon me but it seems like the point about the Lenovo machine not running OS X is bad on Apple's part. Lack of portability is a major problem if you are planning to upgrade your machine. What happens when we get tired of using apple hardware? I like to keep my choices open. This is going to start to take away our choice of hardware. Slowly the selection we expect from New Egg or TigerDirect is going to get smaller. No more OCZ, EVGA, AMD, and other non-Apple choice hardware. This is part of the reason why Apple isn't as big as Microsoft. Some may say why not Linux? Because no matter how good Linux is it isn't mainstream. It will always stay independent. So in part we need people to keep buying Lenovo, Dell, and IBM. So they can keep a good variety in the market. As far as I can tell that is the only way we can keep from losing the creativity brought to the table. Nobody understands that variety is what made computers what they are today. Do people really believe Apple would be so good without that independent thinking? God save the PC! F*$k Macintosh

Compairable to begin with?

[pizzach]

For a laptop that is .1 inch thinner than a regular Macbook Pro and is on average is about half an inch thicker than a Macbook Air, I fail to see how this Thinkpad is really compairable to the Macbook Air to begin with. It's like saying, "Haha, my Van can seat more than your compact car!!!" Holy crap people, regular Macbook Pros are famous for having about that much thickness and having that many ports for years.

She's Beautiful!

[chris_sawtell]

• MBA -> Neuter
• X300 -> Female

I'd much prefer a girl on my lap.

And, btw, yes the 'TrackPoint' really is a superior way to move the cursor.

Re:She's Beautiful!

[moderatorrater]

the 'TrackPoint' really is a superior way to move the cursor Yeah, if you can find it.

Re:She's Beautiful!

[chris_sawtell]

He can't find his girl's TrackPoint!?! - ergo a /. reader. :-)

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[DDLKermit007]

Are you honestly bitching about having to lug a small usb hub? I would think you'd be bitching more about the substantially larger accessories your lugging around for no reason. The only thing I ever plug into my Macbook is a thumbdrive, and maybe my cellphone's USB charging adapter. My mouse is the Bluetooth Apple mouse, and my phone syncs via Bluetooth as well. The only thing I could possibly need to plug into my Macbook is a webcam, or DVD burner, which it already has built in!

paltry?

[djfake]

"Apple offers a MacBook Air version with the same solid-state drive for a similar high price." So what was the final outcome? And since when is 64GB paltry for a laptop? At any rate, three (3) USB ports will always win out over one (1) USB ports. X300 wins! c

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[rjmars97]

Personally, I'd take my Thinkpad X61s over either of those. Much cheaper, faster, and (the deciding factor for me) 10 hours of battery life. The small size increase of the X61s is trivial to me when I can get MUCH longer battery. Stock OS does not matter to me either, as I use Gentoo on all of my machines.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[p0tat03]

Hmm... So, thumb drive. Let's say you want to pull files off a disc and onto a USB drive with the MacBook Pro. Oops!

See, things would be wonderful if they were all Bluetooth, but they ain't. Bluetooth mice are expensive (the Mighty Mouse is a poor excuse for a mouse, IMHO), and the selection is very limited. The best mice in my experience are not Bluetooth, sadly.

Not to mention that this whole wireless thing that Apple is apparently touting doesn't quite work. My iPhone cannot sync wirelessly with my laptop, and that's aggravating, since now I need to have it use up a (precious, precious) USB port!

Us Mac users tend to bitch and moan about small inconveniences in the PC world - heavy, thick laptops, crappy power bricks, etc etc. There's no reason we should let Apple get away with this major inconvenience (i.e. lack of ports) just because they're Apple.

Cramped?

[rhade]

The SSD is fast and rugged, but today it can hold only a cramped 64 gigabytes of files

I cannot imagine a 'road warrior' or any other business man ever finding that much space cramped, you could have 20 divx movies and a thousand mp3's on that hardware and still have what, a paltry 40gig left? No doubt necessary for the 32 million spreadsheets and documents you use every second of every day.

In my opinion if your not haxing l33t warez and downloading copious amounts of porn and lat3st n gr3at3st moviez my 5 yo 32gig raptor is more space than I will need for the foreseeable future.

Re:Cramped?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

But given that many people would rather just copy over their entire music library than have to choose which ones to put on each time, 64GBs isn't a lot.

Re:Cramped?

[Anonymous Coward]

>> The SSD is fast and rugged, but today it can hold only a cramped 64 gigabytes of files

> I cannot imagine a 'road warrior' or any other business man ever finding that much space cramped, you could have 20 divx movies and a thousand mp3's on that hardware and still have what, a paltry 40gig left?

Sir, from your example I would say what you need is an Ipod.

For those here actually doing some work on their laptop, disk space might be an issue. As a wanabee-road-warrior myself, I actually carry a copy of my company's fileserver : tech docs, marketing docs and contacts for all our past projects. Pretty useful for my job.
Only 30GB at the moment but it could've been an issue.

Then if I have this laptop stolen/lost, my boss could feel bad - that's why I post as AC :-) ...

Re:Cramped?

[tabby]

I'm currently pushing virtualisation as the solution to the configuration nightmare that is our salespeople laptops (multiple versions of multiple products in multiple configurations) and at 8gig a pop + a backup copy to restore from 64gig don't go too far.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[timeOday]

The X300 also had longer battery life if you remove the DVD and put a battery in there. That seems like a more fair comparison unless you're going to credit the X300 for having a DVD drive where the Air does not.

The other thing I'm surprised people aren't more concerned about is the Air's lack of a removable battery. On long trips I always run my D630 with 2 batteries and a spare so I can swap the main battery without shutting down. With my old T40, I flew from San Francisco to Taiwan this way, computing the whole way. It's the only way to survive such flights IMHO (other than buying a first class seat with a power receptical :)

The X300 review was sorely lacking any performance benchmarks. To bemoan the 60GB capacity of the drive without also measuring its (hopefully low) access time is not fair.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[dfghjk]

"* Being able to use it from an airline seat (Macbook Air has a shorter screen and thinner base)"

It accomplishes this by being deeper. The X300 is shallower and taller due to its hinge design. I don't accept Mossberg's opinion that the Apple design is more airplane-friendly.

"* Ait has longer battery life"

Mossberg's MBA battery life measurement is highly suspicious. He hasn't provided any evidence that the MBA battery life for a traveler is actually better and there's plenty of reasons to feel otherwise, namely (a) lower power X300 processor, and (b) more battery options on the X300. You are wrong here.

"* Air has faster processor"

Yes it does, but the Air is crippled by its terrible hard drive and its faster processor is harder on battery life.

"The only technical aspect I could see swaying some people, the X300 has more resolution. But not much more, and the processor/battery life in particular would seem to be key to me."

Yes, resolution is a significant advantage for the X300, just not the only one. If you choose to travel with the DVD drive, as the MBA forces you to do, the X300 becomes lighter. If you choose a conventional hard disk rather than SSD, the X300 will offer a 50% larger drive. If you value battery life, the X300 offers two sizes plus a secondary battery in the DVD bay. Then there's the complete complement of IO, the cellular and the GPS options. You are again mistaken.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[dfghjk]

I meant "without the DVD drive" of course.

G4 12" ultimate road warrior

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought the last iteration of the PowerBook, 12" G4. About 5 pounds, has DVD writer, USB Firewire, and the Apple wunderHibernation and wunderNetworking compatibility and WiFi connectivity. Goes years, yes YEARS without crash or reboot. Only thing it doesn't have is a PCMCIA slot.

The 12s and 15s used can still be had used for about 1000 bucks, and they're well worth it. Best thing Apple ever did.

MacBooks are ducky, the MBPros are overpriced. Get the PB12, great value.

Okay So then get a macbook

[goombah99]

You are comparing the Lenovo to the wrong machine. For tour usage pattern, you discount thickness and weight, but like more screen, built-in ports and a DVD. Why not get a macbook pro? But in that fight the Lenovo really takes a dive.

Reviewers msses the point, again

[geekoid]

The target demographic of the Air is women. Young women just hitting there career stride.

Do you think the Mary Kay addition to the board was a coincidence?

Look at it, it looks like a compact for crying out load.

different demographic. Yes I like the way it looks, but I doubt I would buy one...unless they add induction charging. Of course then I could never hold on to it because my boner would keep knocking it out of my hands.

Re:Reviewers msses the point, again

[Lagman101]

That is assuming that the office, these carrier women are working at, is not using a exchange server (ever tired using the POS Microsoft made as the outlook for Macs? it pissed my company off so much that they are now setting up some older laptops that we had lying around as dummy email terminals for the mac people here.) Or has a support contract with a PC vendor, At my office it is HP only. there are 6 macs in the entire office and they are all in the in-house graphics department. Even then they are all workstations. There are no mac laptops here.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Anonymous Coward]

And why would you want a post in the middle of your keyboard? I see idiot VP's that don't know how to type and only rarely use a computer that love the annoying posts, but not many people that know how to type want a painful obstruction in the middle of their keyboard. Even worse, IBM could have positioned it so it made hitting only two of the keys painful, but they decided to move it downwad so it also partially blocks hitting the B key. Why would you claim to like something that keeps you from typing?

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[SuperKendall]

You need to get something off a CD or DVD

You use someone else's drive in the room

You need to plug in ethernet as well as a USB flash drive

What company does not have wireless nodes now? Nowadays companies are a lot more reluctant to let you plug non-company devices physically into the network. And if you must, there is an adaptor for cheap ethernet...

The resolution of the X300 is much, much better

As I said, that is the one aspect that I could see being compelling. But given the size of the screen, I don't see it as that much more compelling compared to a desktop.

Based on use

[SuperKendall]

The ONE thing I hate about my MacBook Pro (and the MacBook) is that it only has two USB ports, necessitating ANY serious user to get a USB hub (oh great, ANOTHER thing in the laptop bag). And now we're looking at... ONE PORT?

Then for you it's the same - you still need a hub.

But what are you plugging into the ports? You don't need an external mouse for a Mac.

I am as I said, basing my observation on my use. In the entire lifespan of two laptops, I have yet to ever use more than one USB port, and that's just for CF readers. Sometimes I have used external drives as well, but often those have passthroughs.

To me the Air is more practical than my current Macbook Pro when traveling, and I'll seek to upgrade probably in about a year or so.

Re:Based on use

[p0tat03]

My MacBook Pro is my main workhorse machine - and I have no desktop to complement it. It's always got the following hooked up to it:

- Keyboard ('cos the integrated one really sucks for anything beyond basic text entry)
- Mouse ('cos when I'm really chugging away at my work I need to be speedy)
- External HDD ('cos the internal drive really isn't big enough, even at 160GB)
- iPhone sync cable ('cos... well that's obvious)

The keyboard and mouse collectively take up only one USB port on my machine, thanks to the geniuses who put a USB hub in the Apple Keyboard, but as you can see I constantly need a USB hub. On the go it's not so bad, since it's usually just the iPhone sync cable, and a memory stick - but even then I'd still need more than a single port.

Re:Based on use

[SuperKendall]

Well there you go, I have a desktop that is a primary system and use the Pro more for smaller projects and travel. So again, it's good they have both systems because I don't think teh Air would really meet your needs, while for me it's better suited.

Re:Based on use

[Skippy_kangaroo]

My MacBook Pro is my main workhorse machine - and I have no desktop to complement it. It's always got the following hooked up to it:

Nothing.

I don't have the following constantly hooked up to it:
Keyboard ('cos the integrated one if fine unless you need a numeric keypad)
Mouse ('cos I use a Bluetooth mouse)
External HDD ('cos I use it for backups or raw video storage, not editing - and I use Firewire rather than USB because its faster, particularly for video)
iPod sync cable ('cos I actually like to use it away from my computer rather than having it permanently attached to my computer - kind of defeats the purpose of a portable music player to have it permanently conected to my computer really. Same would go for an iPhone.)
Memory stick ('cos if it's important I put it on my computer)

Exactly my problem.

[SuperKendall]

That is my problem, I'm rather tall.

The Macbook Air screen is shorter, therefore to me it would be more usable on an airline seat. I have given up using my Macbook Pro screen on an airline tray in coach. I am pretty sure the Air would be just shorter enough (in screen size and in base depth) to make it workable.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[SuperKendall]

I'm sure it's a personal preference thing, but I've used trackpoints before and I really dislike them compared to what I can do with gesture based use of a trackpad on a Macbook, the Air offers some extensions to that as well.

Apart from that I greatly prefer a single button that I chord with keys to be a second or third button. I never once saw a PC laptop button layout that worked well for both buttons.

Easy to extend battery life on the Air

[SuperKendall]

There are a number of small external power solutions for laptops that do not take up much more room than a spare battery. I have a device called a "Solio" that can charge either from the wall, or by built in solar panels - it charges an internal battery and has adaptors for a number of different devices, including a 12V adaptor to use with a Macbook car charger. Caveat - I've not yet tried this particular device for actually charging a laptop so I don't know how much extra time it would provide, or if it would work (I've had a running Macbook Pro trip a circuit breaker on a car inverter so I'm a little wary of it working fully).

There are solutions more dedicated to laptop powering as I said.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[SuperKendall]

It accomplishes this by being deeper. The X300 is shallower and taller due to its hinge design. I don't accept Mossberg's opinion that the Apple design is more airplane-friendly.

I do because I've given up using a Macbook Pro on airline trays in coach for exactly this reason.

Mossberg's MBA battery life measurement is highly suspicious. He hasn't provided any evidence that the MBA battery life for a traveler is actually better and there's plenty of reasons to feel otherwise, namely (a) lower power X300 processor, and (b) more battery options on the X300. You are wrong here.

I'm wrong because you feel someone else who actually had both computers I guess if you had thought longer before posting you might have realized that the Air has more internal space (having less ports and no DVD drive) to use for a battery, and that the processor might actually be more efficient (my computer today has lower power usage than my system of a few years ago).

You can apologize later.

Yes it does, but the Air is crippled by its terrible hard drive and its faster processor is harder on battery life.

Like I said, battery life does not have to suffer with faster processors.

I agree the hard drive would slow things down but I don't know why you'd not get the Air with the SSD - which incidentally offers better better life too.

If you choose to travel with the DVD drive, as the MBA forces you to do, the X300 becomes lighter.

I already mentioned I've had to use that a handful of times in two years of use. Why would I even buy one? I'd just carry the CD with client software - anywhere I'm traveling that I'd need a read a CD there would be a computer around, somewhere. Mostly I get everything over the network now.

If you value battery life, the X300 offers two sizes plus a secondary battery in the DVD bay

Now that would be actually handy.

Then there's the complete complement of IO, the cellular and the GPS options.

All of which I can get working on an Air as well, just more external. Color me unimpressed.

You are again mistaken.

May I suggest a change of careers? You might want to think about being a cobbler, as you seem fond of the taste of shoe leather. Thankfully it's not really leather so much anymore as plastics, which is more hygienic for you.

Why do they continue to put DVDs on these things?

[Anonymous Coward]

Reasons not to put DVDs on ultra-portables:

1. It's the most fragile and mechanical part of the whole thing
2. It takes up space that I would rather devote to a thicker case or more battery
3. It's useless. I can always plug in a USB DVD drive and copy twenty movies over to the HD before my flight, or I can access my PC's DVD over the net
4. Gee, isn't it lovely to have a built-in (non-replaceable) DVD player now that BluRay has just won the format war and I won't be buying any more DVD movies?

It's time for optical drives on ultra-portables to go the way of the floppy disk or the parallel port.

So for me, "doesn't have a DVD" is an advantage of the Air. Vs these two options, I would take the Panasonic Toughbook T7 over either of these machines. It has real USB and Ether ports (unlike the Air), it has a two-button mouse (unlike the Air), and it is not encumbered with a DVD (unlike the X300), and it doesn't have a keyboard "clit" (I real real clits, not keyboard clits).

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Skuld-Chan]

You know, Apple was the first one to jump on the USB bandwagon, using USB HID peripherals when everyone else was still shipping them with PS/2 ports. I'll give you they were early adopters when it came to shipping usb hid peripherals, but were no means the first to jump on that (especially when in 96-97 I had a P5-200 that had usb ports). I remember the first G3 I saw with USB and it had a whopping two ports.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[gwk]

>The only thing I could possibly need to plug into my Macbook is a webcam, or DVD burner, which it already has built in! The macbook air doesn't have a DVD burner, a macbook or macbook pro arn't in the same class as an X300, being 2 or more pounds heavier and dimensionally are substantially larger. Carrying a USB hub plus all the other crap the MBA lacks around would suck I like one laptop I can just grab and carry around like a book (and is durable enough to care around like that, no matter what people say I dont think apple build quality/design is very good: I have seen to many powerbooks with completely busted hinges and LCDs with screwed up screens from pressure on them etc) In my opinion all of the MBA vs X300 comments so far have missed the most crucial missing feature from the MBA, the complete lack of any reasonable way of networking the damn thing, a laptop in 2008 without gigabit Ethernet is just criminal. Personally what I want out of a laptop is something portable thats easy to haul around: however when I get to either of my desks at home or work I want to be able to plug it in and sync it with real machines at a rate somewhere faster than molasses and that isn't going to be over wifi. Hardware wise its hard to argue that the MBA is even comparable, the X300 packs a higher resolution screen, a dvd burner, a ton of wireless connectivity options on top of just wifi and bluetooth, you can change the battery yourself (easily) and if its like my X60 even plug an extended battery into the ultra base connector on the bottom for long flights. Having OS X might be nice I admit but I could use that at home and not have to endure the torture of an apple portable.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[p0tat03]

You're right, I didn't mean to imply that Apple was the first to put USB ports on their machines, but rather that they're the first to really say "want PS/2 peripherals? TOO FRIGGIN BAD!" - much like they were the first with the floppy in that regard. Steve Jobs made a big deal out of how USB was the future, and it's kind of sad now to see all these peripherals getting no love. USB still has a huge role in everyday computing, and while 6 ports may be a bit extreme, at LEAST 3 or 4!

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[tgibbs]

I'm trying to think of when I had more than one USB device at a time plugged into my laptop, and I'm coming up short. Likewise, I can think of only a couple of times I've ever used the DVD drive while traveling, and that cured me of ever doing it again--it utterly kills battery life.

Ridiculous.

[shyberfoptik]

Are you honestly bitching about having to lug a small usb hub?

I guarantee that packing and using a usb hub of any size is more inconvenient than the what, 0.16" difference in thickness that Apple fans will not let up on as being the most indispensable feature of the AirBook.

Puh-leeze.

Who is Walt Mossberg?

[micromuncher]

Road warriors stick to ArsTechnica.

OK I am typing on a Mac Book Air, you need thin

[Zeinfeld]

You don't know why you need thin till you have thin. Thin is not spin, thin is in. Once you have thin all other laptops seem dim.

The Thinkpad comparison is ridiculous. The Thinkpad is not a response to the MBA, its a machine that came out about the same time with one MBA technology, the solid state drive. I would not pay $1000 for a SSD. Its a technology that is definitely going to have a big impact but not make mainstream till a 128Gb drive costs $300.

There are two types of laptop, portables and desktop replacements. This is a portable, it is not a desktop replacement by any stretch of the imagination. My desktop has a 1KW power supply and puts out enough heat to warm the server room nicely. It has water cooling and was built to drive three 30" displays. That is a desktop. The day a laptop comes with even one 30" display will be a while coming.

Apple are very smart to emphasize 'thin' over small and light. If they made a 17" model with a high res screen I would definitely buy one.

I don't give a hoot for the number of ports, power, USB and DVI are plenty. The only complaint I have is that its only a single link DVI connector and there is no support for my 30" display, a fact made rather worse by the fact that these displays are only just coming available with scaling chips.

My only real complaint is the lack of a supplemental power accessory. Just give me a battery pack I can plug into the magsafe adapter for long flights.

The lack of DVD built in only worried me before I found that DVD ripper technology has advanced in recent years. The bigger challenge there is the fact that the built in disk is rather small to be loading DVDs onto the machine.

Have you read FSJ, Options?

[dafing]

Is thicker than MacBook Air. Winner: MacBook Air. Really, who gives two craps about thickness... it's all marketing from Apple. Who has honestly gone "Gee wizz, this laptop is just too darn THICK for my needs!"? Pretty much no-one... where does it being super, super thin make for a big boon? Any bag you're going to carry said laptop in is going to be able to handle another centimeter or so... geeze.

Once people could have said a cordless phone was "just marketing". But if I try and use a corded one, it drives me freakin' nuts!

Just bought my first mac, a secondhand 12 inch Powerbook, I see the ads on tv here in NZ non stop it seems for the MBA, it makes My Precious look morbidly obese.

Have you read Fake Steve Jobs book Options? The end shows his next Insanely Great computer, if not, go out and buy his book!!!!

(ok, its a sheet of clear plastic that has keyboard, screen everything buit....omg MBA ad just came on arrrrgh this laptop if fat!....everything built into this clear plastic, it rolls up and fits into a tube)

Yep

[LKM]

The author writes:

"certain points are arguable ('Doesn't use Mac OS X Leopard. Winner: MacBook Air').""

But I don't see what's arguable about "Being able to legally run Windows and Mac OS X is better than only being able to run Windows."

does not matter exactly...

[sach2n]

it does not matter if seven or more features of both the laptops match or not, but the main thing is that who will be able to keep pace with the changing tecnology and upgrage their laptops faster to give better service and stay ahead in competiotion. I think Apple will win on this.

Re:does not matter exactly...

[argent]

But Apple doesn't support upgrading their laptops at all. They come out with new ones, if you want to upgrade yours, you have to buy a new one.

I'm not interested in either of *these* laptops, but let's compare a couple I was interested in a little while back... the entry level Macbook and Thinkpad.

The processor and hardware specs for the Macbook and the Thinkpad were identical: same CPU, same GPU, same ports, same memory, same resolution. The differences?

The Macbook included a camera.

The Thinkpad was $240 cheaper, included a swappable optical drive, a docking port, a swappable hard drive, two buttons on the trackpad, and a better keyboard than anything Apple has had on a laptop since the Japanese Powerbook 2400.

Alternatively, you could pay the same price as the Macbook, and get a real GPU instead of the horrid embedded intel thing.

Oh, and that Powerbook 2400 I mentioned? The keyboard was by an IBM group in Tokyo.

Apples hardware has been and still is mediocre, and the number of people who would buy Macs if all they could run on them was Windows is negligible. It's OS X that makes all the difference, and the only thing that could possibly make any Macbook (including the Macbook Air) a "winner" in any even contest.

Re:Why do they continue to put DVDs on these thing

[Jerry Rivers]

The Air has a multi-touch track pad -- you don't really need a two button mouse unless you're gaming.

Just want to point out ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy a $3000 lenovo, or a $3000 Mac ... or be realistic and buy a $900 laptop that in all honesty would be just as good anywhere else.

Lift 15lbs weights for a bit, then you'll be able to carry that 5lbs laptop like us real pros... :-)

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Anonymous Coward]

coming up short? keyboard, mouse, webcam, ipod.

64 GB SSD is only cramped if...

[GentlemanRogue]

you're running that fucking bloatware abortion of an OS known as Vista... screw that, where's my Ubuntu CD? Solid-state drives reformat as easily as conventional disks...

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[tgibbs]

coming up short? keyboard, mouse, webcam, ipod.

Keyboard? Mouse? It already has a full-sized keyboard. This isn't one of those dinky subnotebook microkeyboards that you can't stand to type on for long. And you really think that somebody up-to-date enough to get a MBA will want to use a wired keyboard or mouse, anyway? Everybody I know uses bluetooth, particularly with laptops. Webcam? Apple laptops, including the MBA, already come with that built in. Ipod? You plug it in for a few minutes to sync, and then you unplug it. You don't leave it plugged in long unless you are recharging it, and iPods hold a charge well, so you don't have to do it often. I usually let it recharge overnight when I'm not using my computer, so one port is plenty.

Re:Why do they continue to put DVDs on these thing

[FoodSlayer]

Ummm, the x300 features a removable dvd drive. You can take it out and replace it with a battery or a blank travel insert. Also, if you dont like the trackpoint(clit) you can disable it in bios and remove the red piece. It will hardly be noticeable at all.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Cederic]

hmm. USB devices commonly in my laptop:

- Laptop base with fans (ok, that's so I can use it on a soft fluffy bed that would otherwise block the cooling vents - I don't take that with me when I'm out and about)
- mouse. Bluetooth just doesn't cut it, especially in a busy environment
- USB key. Not ever-present, but I don't want to be unplugging other things for it
- headphones. Sure, the laptop has a microphone and speakers built in. It would be obnoxious of me to force everyone else to listen to what I'm doing though, and it would be equally obnoxious to force people I'm chatting to through the laptop to listen to all the crap the built-in microphone picks up
- kensington usb powered fan. I rarely use this. A friend that went to Africa and South America rated the one I bought him as one of his top travel accessories.

Do I really need 5 USB ports? No. Even with an external DVD I wouldn't. Do I need 2 or more? Absolutely definitely.

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Cederic]

erm. My company has several buildings with no wireless. If you want your laptop connected to the network, it must be through a wire.

No, external people can't connect to the network. This is good.
Internal people can't use a macbook air. No loss.

2 kilograms

[Anonymous Coward]

Is 2 kg and a bit of warmth on your lap really THAT uncomfortable???

Even 2.5 kg (5 lbs.; 1 kg ~ 2(.2) lbs.) is getting into hefty, never mind 3 or more.

Once you get below 2 kg, most manufacturers go for tiny and trade-off screen size, drives, etc.

2 kg is the cut off point. Alan Kay, while research for the DynaBook project, found that once you get over 2 kg you go from "portable" and approach "luggable" (read: hassle).

Re:Why do they continue to put DVDs on these thing

[Cederic]

hmm. I'm using a laptop with a multi-touch track pad. I also just took my hand from the keyboard to use a physical mouse to click on the 'reply' button.

Track pads are good, but I'm afraid mice are still a teensy bit better.

Re:Why do they continue to put DVDs on these thing

[Jerry Rivers]

Just because you choose to ignore the trackpad and stick with the tried and true ways doesn't necessarily mean you NEED to use a mouse, or that mice are necessarily "a teensy bit better" (whatever that means). Many people use ONLY the multi-touch trackpad. They feel the mouse actually limits them and moving from keyboard to mouse slows them down. I agree except when I'm playing a game (but even some gamers use only the trackpad).

Perhaps you need to tear yourself away from your beloved mouse for a few days and actually learn how to use the trackpad, because it sounds as if a mouse is very awkward for you since you apparently must move your hand several inches to click something, instead of moving it only an inch or two.

Which laptop do you use by the way?

Re:Why do they continue to put DVDs on these thing

[Cederic]

I use a laptop no longer sold, that I bought from Rock Direct (rockdirect.co.uk). It's quite nice :)

I have used it (and others) without a mouse. It's very usable. I still prefer to have a mouse.

When I'm actually mobile (the current beast is a portable desktop replacement, useful for me living between two locations at the moment) the mouse is an annoyance as there's no surface for it. That's a tiny proportion of my overall laptop usage, and the rest of the time I genuinely love my mouse.

(anyway, you haven't seen my mouse. It's sexy in ways that oughtn't be possible for something that doesn't vibrate. and it doesn't actually need a surface to use it while mobile! http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/mice/devices/3443&cl=gb,en )

Re:Why do they continue to put DVDs on these thing

[Jerry Rivers]

Are you sure that has a multi-touch track pad? Can you "pinch" with two fingers to zoom, or use two fingers to scroll, or use two fingers down and click to right click? That's how a true multi-touch track pad on the Air works. I have looked at the products at Rock Direct and none of them appear to mention "multi-touch". I suspect they do not use that technology and that is why you need to use a two button mouse because they are simply standard trackpads, which generally suck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch

I use a basic four-button Intellimouse for gaming with my MBP even though it has true multi-touch. I just don't have enough manual dexterity beyond normal everyday use :-/

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Seraphim_72]

...so what you are saying is that after you compile, you have the same battery life as the rest of us? ;)

Re:Why do they continue to put DVDs on these thing

[Cederic]

hmm. hadn't realised you meant that by multi-touch - my laptop has standard synaptics touchpad.

it's nice, but the multi-touch features would annoy the hell out of me - too many inadvertent touches. I disable the non-directional capabilities of the synaptics device for that very reason. Shame, it's able to scroll up/down/left/right, minimise/maximise windows, single/double-click, etc.

being able to use two fingers not one still doesn't make it a good alternative to a separate mouse for me.

agreed

[Stu Charlton]

RAZR was the first real example of this, yep. on the bright side, the iPhone is more than a pretty face.

Sure they can

[SuperKendall]

Internal people can't use a macbook air. No loss.

Sorry to hear your company is so backwards. Real companies know how to secure wireless networks, and know how to not have them run on the same network as the internal network...

Macbook Air users will be able to adopt to your primitive culture by simply attaching the USB ethernet adaptor.

Re:Sure they can

[Cederic]

What's the point of running on a non-internal network? It's rather easier to plug the laptop into an ethernet port and run on the internal network.

Just because one of our buildings is still on token ring doesn't make us backwards, it just means we're prioritising customer service above middle-manager technowanking. As evidenced by our industry customer ratings. Things are working fine, when there's a genuine business case for making things wireless then it's something that can be considered.

Connectivity

[SuperKendall]

What's the point of running on a non-internal network? It's rather easier to plug the laptop into an ethernet port and run on the internal network.

The point of running on any network is easy - connectivity.

The point of running wireless on a non internal network is obvious - security, and providing availability to guests without compromising internal networks (security again).

VPN's are what make everything work if you need both.

Just because one of our buildings is still on token ring doesn't make us backwards

Holy crap! I was just joking before. I would stop digging now.

Things are working fine, when there's a genuine business case for making things wireless then it's something that can be considered.

That case was made about five years ago in terms of employee flexibility and happiness (including VP's).

Re:Connectivity

[Cederic]

I would stop digging now. I may have been a little tongue in cheek. I'm personally horrified at using token ring still :)

That case was made about five years ago in terms of employee flexibility and happiness (including VP's). Secure wifi networks hadn't been proven 5 years ago. Equally, the laptops we bought back then (which sadly I'm still using) didn't have wifi built in.

Adding a card would enable it, but you're looking at increased complication and scope for user error - always an issue with VPs.

Financial institutions can afford to be behind the technology bleeding edge.

I'm playing devil's advocate a little, there's a little more I'd like us to do that might boost productivity and reduce employee frustration. It's never as easy at a bank as it would be at a company like Amazon..

Re:Tie doesn't seem quite right - battery, process

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't read anything in the prior post about usb hub...and the Macbook Air doesn't have an optical drive...a major drawback I think.

I don't know what you were to replying to, but it wasn't anything from the previous post

Macintosh vs command line?

[Shadow-Copy]

mac ^in math ratio form^

The greater is the Pc @ any brand lable, any pc will out perform a Macintosh as long as its @ year with the Macintosh.
for example: - 4ghz pc can run circles around any 4ghz mac..
any computer user from ye olden' times would understand, for one small reason, Command line..
Macintosh has no command line and at that has no manual configurations, basically the only thing you can adjust is the background, and icon eye candy on a Macintosh..
While your clunky PC, has that same auto installation feature

• now-days

but at first was highly unliked by many because it wasn't user friendly at all, and no beautiful click-able desktop like our modern fashions..
With only one mouse button at the time of ye olden days.. The Macintosh was liked for its easy to use.. No need to calibrate trend.. Now with the evolved Macintosh OSX the mouse now have 2 buttons.. and that same still easy to use.. no calibration auto fix, auto clean, auto sort, auto calibrate, ect.. nature.. could never an will never be as good as a.. PC.. Just because you can cut off resources from putting cache an power to specific measures by, Calibrating a PC...

So as i conclude.. The publisher of that site needs to calibrate the likeness' of both because they are wayyyyyyyy off.. ;-)