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Free Games As a Solution To Game Piracy

christ, jesus H writes "PC gaming may not be dying, but it is in a state of flux. We're seeing developers and publishers blaming piracy for all the ills of PC gaming, but attempts to rein in pirates with the help of DRM only annoys and mobilizes the legitimate customers of your games. The solution? According to David Perry of Shiny Games, PC games are going to be free." (And if anyone has a favorite replacement term for "piracy," in the context of electronic copyright violation, please suggest it below.)

806 comments

  1. A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Millennium · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I prefer the term "stealing games" myself. It fits well, does away with the positive connotations that the term "piracy" has gained in some circles, and -perhaps most important- it really makes the pirates mad.

    1. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Syrente · · Score: 4, Funny

      I always considered 'Eternal Borrower' or 'Stonking great Thief' as accurate ways of naming 'pirates.'

    2. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not stealing as copying does not deprive the original owner of anything. Copyright is an artificial monopoly provided by the government as an incentive to create and release creative works.

      Am I stealing from you if I choose not to buy from you, but from someone else? No? Yet I am depriving you of revenue, isn't that stealing? No? Then depriving you of revenue by copying your product isn't stealing either.

      It is copyright violation, which is wrong, but not stealing. It is wrong because it violates the social contract you agree to by continuing to live in our society.

      That is important: you wouldn't even have a moral claim against a person who renounced society and all its benefits who then violated copyright. They would not be a party to the social contract, and would have no moral reason not to copy.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by flaming+error · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > favorite replacment term for "piracy,"

      market correction

    4. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Kinda like when I screwed your wife while you were at work. You could still use her, so there is nothing wrong with it. Me and the twelve other guys all agree on this.

    5. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not a very good analogy. The wife would now have the herpes you gave her, which would make her less fun in that particular aspect of the relationship.

      --
      Harold
    6. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Bad analogy. We're polyamorous. Kinda like the open-source of sexuality. We have a cc-by-nc-sa marriage license. ;-)

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    7. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by eln · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Am I stealing from you if I choose not to buy from you, but from someone else? No? Yet I am depriving you of revenue, isn't that stealing? No? Then depriving you of revenue by copying your product isn't stealing either.

      That's quite a leap there. If I steal your product, that implies that I want it. Do I want it badly enough that I would pay for it if there was no possible way to steal it? Maybe, maybe not, but the product clearly has some value to me, since I was willing to go through the trouble and risk of stealing it.

      However, if I'm buying someone else's product instead, that implies that your game has no value to me, since I believe your competitor's product to be superior enough to spend my time on it rather than on your game.

      As for someone renouncing society and all its benefits, to truly do that they would need to be living in a cave somewhere completely off the grid (and certainly without access to the Internet), so they would be unlikely to be in the market for computer games anyway.

    8. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Millennium · · Score: 0

      It's not stealing as copying does not deprive the original owner of anything.

      Actually, it does.

      When you pirate a work, you must by definition make a new copy. That copy can only be legally produced by the copyright holder. It would make no sense to simply destroy it, and so ownership of it reverts to the one legally able to produce it in the first place. Most of the time illegally-produced copies get destroyed anyway, but that need not be the case.

      In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder. By not returning the copy to them or buying it outright, you are in fact depriving them of something: a copy to sell or otherwise do with as they will.

      And so, piracy equals theft.

      Copyright is an artificial monopoly provided by the government as an incentive to create and release creative works.

      Yes. So what?

      Am I stealing from you if I choose not to buy from you, but from someone else?

      If that "someone else" has obtained its copies by lawful means, then no, you are not.

      Yet I am depriving you of revenue, isn't that stealing? No? Then depriving you of revenue by copying your product isn't stealing either.

      Actually, no, because the copy wasn't obtained by lawful means. You are depriving its rightful owner of a product it could sell or otherwise dispose of as it saw fit.

    9. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      I already said copyright violation was wrong. I don't personally do it. I don't copy software, or music, or anything that isn't fair use without permission. But it isn't stealing anyway. So how am I a thief?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    10. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by PrimalChrome · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are both depriving the producer of revenue AND making use of their product without paying for ownership. It's much like 'stealing' wifi access from your neighbor. The only physical aspect of the theft involves electrons/impulses/etc...

      "the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny."

      Copyright (whether you approve or not) denotes ownership...making it intellectual property. The wrongful taking of makes it theft.

      Funny how the slashdot crowd considers it theft if Microsoft includes GPL'ed code, but if it involves a person stealing music/movies/software, it is a right in the pursuit of happiness.

    11. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by The+Only+Druid · · Score: 1

      It's stealing: you're depriving the intellectual property owner of one of their property rights, i.e. exclusivity. The same way I may choose who gets to stay in my realty (i.e. I control the exclusivity of the property), an intellectual property owner has the right to control who gets access to the intellectual property. By depriving me of that right without paying me agreed upon value, you're committing theft.

      --
      "Stumble before you crawl"
    12. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Funny

      Kinda like when I screwed your wife while you were at work. You could still use her, so it wasn't stealing

      Fixed that for you.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    13. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, the slashdot crowd considers it copyright violation is Microsoft includes GPL'ed code, and we consider it copyright violation if someone copies music, movies or software. See how that works? It's a different word, denoting a different action, with different consequences, but it is still wrong.

      Using someone else's wifi is stealing, as you are depriving them of a limited resource: their bandwidth. You can make unlimited copies of a digital work without depriving the owner of anything.

      You can argue the point all you like, but the law sees it differently than you do. Jaywalking also isn't littering, in case you were confused about that, too.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    14. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming it were possible to "renounce society and all its benefits", someone doing so would by definition not infringe on a copyright because he would have renounced the benefit of the work.

      Besides which, your idea gives "pirates" a free pass:

      1. Renounce society and all its benefits.
      2. Copy the work. (Morally acceptable, according to you.)
      3. Change your mind about society.
      4. Enjoy the work. (You're not infringing on the copyright - that was already done.)

    15. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations on your well constructed troll post, we the Anonymous Coward trolls of /. commend you.

      You isolated a very well known point of argument on /. and presented it in a seemingly innocent, and positive way, making yourself look like the good guy as you claim only bad guys would be sensitive to it.

      I shall advise your EA/Sony/Safedisk/Securom/whoever overloards you are earning your pay well.

      Also, cocks.

    16. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      if you take GPLed code, modify it, and then release only binaries, you ARE depriving the rest of the world of something - the source code of your modifications. In that case, the word 'steal' is appropriate.

      --
      FGD 135
    17. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Well, it's true. The poor thing just can't handle my needle dick.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    18. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Nursie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Actually, no, because the copy wasn't obtained by lawful means. You are depriving its rightful owner of a product it could sell or otherwise dispose of as it saw fit."

      Hate to break it to you, but no he isn't. You haven't in any way taken a physical item from them, or prevented them from making more. Your logic sucks.

    19. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can still user her, so it's not *theft*. Maybe that's what we should call it - breach of copyright is "cheating".

    20. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Renounce 'our' society, not until I have got a bloody refund :)

      Benefits, yeah right, taxes more like and enforced educational penal colonies.

      No one agrees to a social contract, it is enforced by the powers that be. Veil of ignorance, heh.

      First year philosophy students, oh doesn't it all look grand.

      Welcome to the slave world, I hope your stay will be a pleasant one.

    21. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not according to US law (yet). You can argue all you want about the way things should be, but the way things ARE, copyright violation is not stealing.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    22. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Slashidiot · · Score: 1

      I prefer ninjacy to piracy, because, you know, ninjas are way cooler than pirates.

      --
      Tis women makes us love, Tis Love that makes us sad, Tis sadness makes us drink, And drinking makes us mad.
    23. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by christ,+jesus+H · · Score: 1

      I prefer the term "stealing games" myself. It fits well, does away with the positive connotations that the term "piracy" has gained in some circles, and -perhaps most important- it really makes the pirates mad.

      I would prefer "avoiding game breaking DRM" as this is the most common motivator for the "pirates" I know personally. I understand that creators need to be compensated for thier work and I also understand that piracy does exist. However in my opinion these developers have allowed themselves to be "conned" by alot of statistics into believing a simple cough is full blown lung cancer, no surprise these statistics are usually supplied by the companies selling solutions (cures) to save teh developers from thier own fans. As a PC gamer I am tired of being treated as a suspect by publishers. I am tired of getting gimped games that are hampered or sometimes even broken by poor DRM implentations. Most of all though, I am tired of having to get "bootleg" copies of games just because I lost my original CD, or some registration code. PC gaming may be one of the first areas of modern commerce where the industry actually, simply scared itself to death.

      --
      Ohh spiteful one tell me who to smote and he shall be smolten!
    24. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Those are not equivalent things. Your property is something physical you own, not a set of rights.

      Copyright is a social contract between producer and consumer, to the benefit of the whole of society, not some sort of natural right.

    25. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by MacDork · · Score: 1

      I prefer the term "stealing games" myself. It fits well, does away with the positive connotations that the term "piracy" has gained in some circles, and -perhaps most important- it really makes the pirates mad.

      I prefer the term "sharing" for much the same reasons.

    26. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you wouldn't even have a moral claim against a person who renounced society and all its benefits who then violated copyright

      Since copyrighted works are one of the benefits of society, no such person can possibly exist. So your sentence, while vacuously true, contains no meaning.

    27. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1
      What if I don't live in society?

      My Mom's basement is just fine, thank-you-very-much!

      (See, I was polite, there, at the end.)

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    28. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder. By not returning the copy to them or buying it outright, you are in fact depriving them of something: a copy to sell or otherwise do with as they will.

      MOD PARENT DOWN for serious WTF.

    29. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Miseph · · Score: 1

      Because it's easier to use lazy ad hominems to attack someone than it is to actually refute them?

      BTW, I do pirate software, regularly. I've yet to pirate anything, however, that was so good I wish I had paid for it and didn't, or that was otherwise available to me. When games get discontinued, there's often little recourse for someone looking for it other than to pirate it.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    30. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's stealing: you're depriving the intellectual property owner of one of their property rights, i.e. exclusivity. The same way I may choose who gets to stay in my realty (i.e. I control the exclusivity of the property)

      You seem doubly confused. If someone violates the "exlusivity" of your property, that's called trespassing, not theft.

    31. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Odiumjunkie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I prefer the term "raping children" myself. It fits well, does away with the positive connotations that the term "piracy" has gained in some circles, and -perhaps most important- it really makes the pirates mad.

      See the problem?

    32. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Am I stealing from you if I choose not to buy from you, but from someone else?

      What are you buying? The CD and support for Redhat, or a bootleg copy of Windows XP? If you're paying Person B for the work of Person A, where A was in no agreement with Person B for such a transaction, it sounds a lot like theft.

      "Copying" could then imply that you transferred the files, with no cost of transfer to Person A. The idea that you're simply "testing" the game/ movie/ music, or that you wouldn't have paid for the item at that price is another issue, where things could get gray. But don't pretend that buying a bootleg copy is still not supporting piracy. However, buying a competing product is not.

    33. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Millennium · · Score: 0

      Hate to break it to you, but no he isn't. You haven't in any way taken a physical item from them, or prevented them from making more.

      The physicality of the item, or the lack thereof, is not important. Consider the classic bank-account scam, told and retold ever since the advent of electronic banking, where pennies or even mills could be shaved off of people's bank accounts a little bit at a time. No physical objects ever changed hands -and in the case of mills, the loss would likely never even be noticed- yet this is clearly theft.

      Likewise, when you pirate software, you have deprived the copyright holder of something which belongs to them: the copy you made. The fact that they can produce more is completely irrelevant.

      Your logic sucks.

      No, actually, it's quite sound.

    34. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      No, without society I am free to experience and reinterpret my experiences as I see fit. Including copying. Copyrighted works are not a benefit of society. Works in general are not a product of society, but of individuals. If an individual puts a work where I can see it, and I am not a party to any agreement not to copy it, then I can do whatever I like with my experience of it. If the creator didn't want me to do that, they shouldn't have placed the work where I can see it. Barring some agreement to the contrary, no one but me owns my sense impressions or the products of my labor.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    35. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by PrimalChrome · · Score: 2

      I want to thank you for your enlightening post. I'll have to be more careful with my littering. Amazing how those little things slip by me...

      I do agree with you that if you are discussing exact legal terms, copying software is not theft, it is indeed copyright violation. Just like embezzling a few million isn't theft, it is a fraudulent reallocation of resources. Using legal terms to qualify the exact nature of the transgression does not change the root of the activity.

    36. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Copyright infringement" is arguably more correct but somewhat unwieldy. In Germany we use the term "Raubkopie", which would word-for-word translate to "robbery copy". Reverse the ordering and you get "copy robbery", which could be refined into "copy theft". While copyright infringement isn't theft, the term "copy theft" at least implies that the "stolen" object is still there.

      The term is actually already being used by some people; it gets ~2000 Googles and most of the first-page hits seem relevant. However, apparently someone came up with a pseudo-license/copyleft workalike called CopyTheft, so there might be a conflict there.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    37. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 1

      By the same logic, lying is stealing as well since you are depriving someone of truth. And truth belongs to all, it is one of the most basic rights one has and needs to have in a moral society. Not sure how many of the worlds population/governments/businesses/organizations are than thieves, but my guess is 80%+. Taking little white lies into account, make that 99%.

      --
      It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
    38. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry you don't understand the laws you live under. Buying stolen property is not theft, it is a different crime, and only if you do it knowingly.

      Why do people have to try to simplify the issue? Fraud isn't theft either, but we still know it is wrong.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    39. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok - why would piracy make pirates mad?

      I can see piracy in music - just steal it in file sharing, right? Wrong. Pirate music?

      How much do you pay for the pirated game, or is it just to save money.

      - The Fidelis -

    40. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't have them before, either. You have a marginal gain by the release of the binaries. Your rights to the source code are due to copyright. No, it's not theft. It *is* still copyright violation. In the same vein, I could argue that when you copied the game, the publisher had a right to monetary compensation due to copyright. Since you didn't provide the money, it's theft? Do you have a problem with this analogy? In both instances, something that wasn't the owner's before the transgression is still not the owner's. In both instances, that something was required by the conditions of the copyright. Either they are both theft, or they are both not theft.

    41. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by ewhac · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The term you're looking for is, "Unsanctioned copy." "Unlicensed copy," also works, but is inferior, due to the popular confusion of precisely which license is at issue.

      Under no rational analysis can it be said to be, "stealing."

      Schwab

    42. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I prefer the term "stealing games" myself.

      If you go into a store and take a game without paying for it you're stealing. If you download it, even illegally, you're not.

      If you steal a game the store owner is out the cost of the game he bought from the publisher. If you download a game illegally nobody has lost anything, particularly if it is a game you would not have otherwise paid for (too poor, just want to check out a new genre etc) and most especially if, like some do, you want to see if you actually like the game and then buy it if you do. There are a lot of people who have been ripped off buying shitty games and are fighting back.

      If you steal a game and get caught you will be charged with a misdemeanor and pay a few hundred dollars fine. If you infringe copyright you can be hit with a civil suit for thousands of dollars.

      So "stealing" just doesn't work.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    43. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by coresnake · · Score: 1

      "This sounds familiar..." "Yeah, they did it in Superman 3.... Underrated movie, actually."

    44. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by knutkracker · · Score: 1

      I'm confused - how does the copy belong to the original producer, other than via an artificial government-mandated monopoly?

      Making a copy takes effort on the part of the copyer and none on the part of the original producer.

    45. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      "Indefinite Trial Period"

    46. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by rgviza · · Score: 1

      Copyright law is the law.
      Forget about the philosophical bullshit. The law is the law whether it's wrong or right.
      If you violate the law, you are a criminal.

      How about if we just say "criminal" instead of "thief".

      It's more accurate and there's no room for interpretation or semantic hair splitting.

      -Viz

      --
      Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
    47. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by RancidMilk · · Score: 0

      I prefer the phrase "Software Liberator" to the term of "Pirate"

    48. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Somegeek · · Score: 1, Troll

      Quoth Spun:

          "It's not stealing as copying does not deprive the original owner of anything."

      Why do people keep making this asinine argument? Because they feel they need to justify their THEFT of other people's work.

      When I make a program, be it a game or utility or whatever, I am making an investment of my time believing that I can sell a certain number of copies of the finished program if it performs well at the desired function. I am allocating units of my work against future sales of the program. I can choose to make a shoddy program and only invest a little time, or I can choose to hopefully make a great program that will attract a much larger customer base and invest a lot of time. There is a fixed (not infinite) market for a given program. If you steal a copy of the program, you are utilizing the fruits of my labour without compensating me for it. You have STOLEN some of my time, and deprived me of income that I should have recieved for creating a program that you have found usefull.

      Look at it another way; the cost to create a program is amortized over a certain number of copies. If I write a program for only one customer, that copy will be very expensive. If that customer uses it, but decides not to pay me, are they depriving me of income? Of course! What if a program is written for a group of four customers? The price to each will be less, but if one of the four decides to use it without paying me anything, they are still depriving me of income. Just because a program is given a wider distribution that 1 or 4 or 100, and has a correspondingly lower price, it does NOT mean that you are not depriving me of income when you use a copy without compensating me for it!

      I know that it is legally "copyright infringement", but morally, it is THEFT.

      It's just like anything else for sale in our world; if you think the price it too high, fine, don't buy it. Just because you think you can steal it without getting caught and you attempt some specious argument to absolve yourself doesn't make it right.

      --
      And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
    49. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      um... it's property because of a set of rights. Ownership only works because of those rights. Land is property, air is not, though both are physical. You can't own air, though there are rights regarding the air and your ability to pollute it.

    50. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Glad you agree with me. Fraud isn't theft. Knowingly buying stolen property isn't theft. Copyright violation isn't theft. Even though all those actions end up with a person possessing property that isn't rightfully theirs, the crimes are different, and have different punishments because they affect society differently.

      We both agree that it is wrong, why do you feel the need to make it something it isn't? Isn't it enough just to say, "It's wrong, don't do it?"

      I mean, why stop at theft? Maybe we should equate it with murder? That's even worse than theft, and if people thought of copyright violation as murder, then they'd be less likely to do it, right? That's why you want to equate it with theft, right? To make people feel bad about doing it? Well, maybe we should make all crimes equivalent to murder, that would sure convince people not to jaywalk.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    51. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by wolf12886 · · Score: 1

      Thats a bit short sighted, don't you think?

      By changing the label, all your doing is attempting to label piracy with an word that is less specific, and already has a negative connotation THAT IT DIDN'T GET FROM PRIACY.

      Personally, I prefer to refer to it as copyright infringement, as that had no connotation to begin with. If it's interpreted positively now, that's only a reflection of cultural opinion of the subject.

    52. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      The term 'stealing' is even less accurate then 'piracy'.

      At least the term piracy has been melded to fit the situation via popular opinion, where as stealing doesn't apply by definition.

      Copyright Infringement is the correct phrase to use..

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    53. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by gnuman99 · · Score: 1

      It is theft. Plain and simple. The law just hasn't caught up with it. For other examples,

      1. Bob makes software A. Releases under GPL. Company B takes the source code, changes the copyright and does some minor changes and releases it as closed source version. Company B is stealing from Bob. They have NO right to take Bob's *property* and do as they please.

      2. Fran makes a flash game C. Releases it as a play-for-free that receives revenue from advertising. License is for usage on site only. Alice takes the game and removes ads. Alice stole Fran's *property*.

      3. Company A makes a car. Frankie steals the car and ponds it off. Frankie stole Company A's *property*.

      Why do I keep writing *property* there? Because in all cases the act of *creating* the *property* involved the original creator to *invest* time AND monetary resources into creating that property.

      The R&D cost on a car usually is spread on a multi-year basis. Parts are patented to prevent copying of the final product (like Chinese manufactures do in MANY cases). On *top* of that, the cost to manufacture each item is added and product *copies* are sold.

      The cost of the car is not the cost of the copper, iron, nickel and plastic in it.

      For software, the R&D cost is principally the *MAIN* cost of the software. Therefore stealing software is equivalent to stealing the money from R&D directly.

      How does it affect GPL authors where they will not recoup the R&D cost, in most cases? The thief essentially gets a private do-whatever-they-want copy of the program without spending the R&D to create it themselves. Maybe the GPL author would relicense the software to the said company at a nominal price that would allow the original author to recoup the said costs.

      Regardless, we are moving into a world where *physical* theft will be meaningless. Where you can essentially print your stuff and only pay a license per copy to print something. For example, if you want vehicle B, you'll just purchase a blueprint copy and the local large-object-printer-ship will just print it for you, with any custom modifications if required.

      If any of you play the game EVE Online, manufacturing process there may be closer to what is available on this planet within the next century. A world where physical device is cheap compared to the intellectual property behind it.

      Hence in the near future, copyright theft laws will strengthen. And that is just a natural way of doing business and protecting our work.

      In the software world, this is the reality today. The laws are just outdated, like they were regarding the material world in the Wild West.

    54. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1
      I have recently bought a game that had very good reviews, probably because all the reviewers had been paid by EA, and I'm afraid the game was very disappointing. It was definitely not worth the money, and as a plus the EA download manager messed up my machine and doesn't even work. I've also bought another game which was advertised as working on Mac OS X and doesn't even startup. Customer service hasn't replied so far after 2 weeks.

      Fact is, the vast majority of games nowadays plain suck and aren't even worth half of the price they're sold at, and game advertising is full of fraud. That's why so many people aren't willing to pay for games.

      Why not just make good games instead and deliver them with a real handbook and real customer service? Why not make games with randomized scenarios and truly open and non-linear plots?

      Some games are so bad that the publishers can even be happy that some kids are willing to play them when the get them for free, let alone paying for them!

      Seriously, make good games, and people will pay for them.

    55. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Copyright (whether you approve or not) denotes ownership

      No, it doesn't, not in the US according to our Constitution. The public OWN the work, the work's creator is given a limited time monopoly.

      If you rent a house you have a limited time monopoly to the house, but it is NOT your property. If you OWN the house it is yours to pass to your decendants forever (or until it burns or someone steals it).

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    56. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It's in accurate and it doesn't help.
      I don't pirate, but I detest the inaccuracy. Considering all the myths, confusion and lies going on, being accurate is very important.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    57. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by ccguy · · Score: 1

      it really makes the pirates mad.

      Nah, not really.

    58. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using someone else's wifi is stealing, as you are depriving them of a limited resource: their bandwidth.

      This can work the other way around too, if you steal a game you are depriving the producers of said game of revenue; which could be considered a limited resource (if not, then our economy would be ape-shit).

    59. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 1

      Read up on (your) history. It matters to people whether the law is wrong or right. If you don't care about your laws being right, than you have my sympathy.

      --
      It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
    60. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Distribution is the crime, not downloading.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    61. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Sethumme · · Score: 1

      I agree, infringing on copyright is not stealing. However, it does deprive the owner of something: the IP's value. For every person that owns an non-permitted copy of a particular IP, there is less demand for the original work, all other things being equal. The owner would not have chosen to make the trade with "pirate" for free if he/she had any control over access.

      A better analogy than the concept of theft is where someone watches a sports event from over the fence, or reads entire novels while in the bookstore.

    62. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by SQLGuru · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How about the term "anonymous offsite back-up with frequent integrity testing"?

      But honestly, I don't see much point in pirating the games. Most aren't good enough to be worth the effort and those that are should be bought just to support the companies that make good games. When I was younger (kid, had no money), I "acquired" some "back-ups" and frequently "tested the integrity" of those back-ups, but now that I'm older and have money, I just buy the ones I want.

      Layne

    63. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by nharmon · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you violate the law, you are a criminal.

      Not true. Some laws specify civil torts while others specify crimes. You become a criminal by violating the laws that specify crimes. This isn't philosophical bullshit.

      Copyright infringement (my favorite replacement term) can either be a civil tort or criminal depending on the purpose and circumstances. In most cases, especially involving P2P sharing, the infringement is a civil tort.

      However, theft is always criminal. Sure, it might have to exceed a certain threshold to be a felony, but stealing even a fraction of a penny is a crime.

      Theft is always a crime. Copyright infringement is only a crime in certain instances. Again, this is not philosophical bullshit.

      Arguing that theft and copyright infringement are the same thing demonstrates a lack of understanding the difference between civil and criminal law not to mention the purpose and nature of copyright law.

    64. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Ragzouken · · Score: 1

      What trouble and risk? It's more trouble to go out and buy a game than it is to just download it. The risk is even less.

    65. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Using someone else's wifi is stealing, "

      only if you don't have authorization. If the system lets you in by design, then you have authorization.
      The incoming house analogy will inevitably show how little the person knows about how computers communicate.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    66. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Lostlander · · Score: 1

      Assuming that aforementioned person was not party to the other benefits the social contract provides such as police, fire, medical and everyday conveniences like electricity. As to be totally free of the "social contract" of society you have to live entirely by yourself and not depend on another.

      However, if you're referring to just that clause in the imaginary social contract well then I would hope that person is prepared to have his or her inventions and ideas used freely with no recourse. To me this is an ideal state but many people fear that everyone else will get the hypothetical 1 up on them if they share their ideas.

    67. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Using legal terms to qualify the exact nature of the transgression does not change the root of the activity."
      But not using the correct terms cause confusion and allows people to be emotionally manipulated.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    68. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      But in this case, the root of the activity is very different. Stealing a physical item is inherently amoral. Even in the total absence of government, stealing is wrong (though of course there are exceptions... stealing bread to eat if starving... but I digress).

      Copyright, on the other hand, is a complete invention of government. It does not exist naturally. The day before the licensing act of 1622, it was totally moral and legal to copy anything you wanted. Then the next day, wham! Illegal. Does that mean that the simple passing of law by edict of a king can make something immoral?

      Now I'll agree that breaking a social contract can be construed as immoral, and as such someone copying a game/song/etc. could be doing something bad because they are breaking the social contract. However, I'd also argue that the social contract was broken by the other side a long time ago when copyrights were extended to outlandish lengths to benefit the few at the expense of the many. Any "social contract" should be good for the society, not the so-called "rights holders".

      The only valid justification for IP laws (IMHO) is for the benefit of society.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    69. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Do you think that buying stolen property is theft, plain and simple? Is fraud also theft, plain and simple? Then if you own any land, you are a thief, plain and simple, as all property was either stolen from its original owners, or they were defrauded of it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    70. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by AcidPenguin9873 · · Score: 1

      I'm sick of people endlessly spewing this argument in these discussions.

      With Intellectual Property (IP), there is no physical item. Any "sale" of IP is the sale of a right to use the IP, not a transfer of the IP itself. If a company wants to transfer ownership of the IP, a company is transferring the ability to sell rights to use the IP. Any argument based on "deprivation" is wrong and misleading because it's literally impossible.

      Theft of IP is gaining use of the IP, without paying the owner of the IP (the only party who is able to sell rights to use the IP) for the use of that IP.

    71. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by markbthomas · · Score: 2, Funny

      We could equate it with boarding a ship at sea, taking its cargo, murdering its crew, and leaving the ship to burn while we sail away.

      Oh.

    72. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bravecanadian · · Score: 1

      LOL I want to have my cake and eat it too please... copyright is what gives the GPL it's teeth. You people CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

    73. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

      Nah it doesn't. I steal games all the time. :D

      Generally speaking, I am not a thief. The thing is I don't believe that art and culture should be "property" the way they are now. The only good business models for art are as a name-your-price service and private commission. Other models are inherently a detriment to social and educational development.

    74. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by replicant108 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I steal your product, that implies that I want it. Do I want it badly enough that I would pay for it if there was no possible way to steal it? Maybe, maybe not, but the product clearly has some value to me, since I was willing to go through the trouble and risk of stealing it.

      Yes, but we are not talking about stealing, unless you can prove otherwise. We are talking about copyright infringement.

      That was kind of the point.

      However, if I'm buying someone else's product instead, that implies that your game has no value to me.

      No, it implies that the other person's product has more value.

      What was your point again?

    75. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by hurfy · · Score: 1

      "where pennies or even mills could be shaved off of people's bank accounts a little bit at a time"

      Classic and still around ?!? Our credit card processor overcharges sales tax by one penny each month...no rounding involved ;) Multiple by all customers in a state that charges tax and .... Profit :O (I spent 30 minutes asking about the penny..they don't really care)

      Put me down for paid games. I don't want some tacky or underhanded way to get money out of me or do dozens of microtransactions. But you can't assume i am a pirate and bog it down with DRM. By the time i get my games loaded on my computer it no longer functions because the DRM schemes are too busy fighting for control i think :/

      Maybe MMO could be run off that model but most the schemes seem clumsy for anything else.

    76. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Tikkun · · Score: 1

      How is making a copy of something theft? You didn't lose anything material. This is like saying that you're stealing by reading a word such as "word" and using it in another sentence.

      How about we call piracy what is really is: A survival trait common among young and nerdy people around the world.

    77. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by PrimalChrome · · Score: 1

      Spun....you make fantastic points, and then you have to throw in a bunch of prickish drek in an effort to be entertaining. If you'd drop the sniping, you'd be a much more respectable poster.

      My point was that legal terms define a particular aspect of something that can be categorized. Manslaughter is not murder, but both are killing. Burglary and robbery are theft, but neither are referred to that in a legal sense. Copying Iron Man off a screener DVD and then distributing it are copyright violations, even though the essence of the action is theft and distribution. That's not legally what they are...but it can be categorized in that fashion outside of a legal context.

      This slashdot article refers to replacing the term 'piracy' which is also not a legal term, so I flip your question right back at you,"Why do you feel the need to make it something it isn't?"

      At the end of the day you feel that duplicating an owner's work, saturating the market, depressing the market value of the item, and depriving that owner of revenues is not, in essence, depriving the owner of anything...therefore not making the action a theft in essence if not in a strict legal definition. That's fine. One of the wonderful aspects of the world we live in is that you can think for yourself and interpret things in your own way. I'd be a pretty boring place otherwise.

    78. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by ccoakley · · Score: 1

      But cheaters never win... teacher said so.

      How about "Breaching?" One syllable less than "Pirating." Still has that ocean theme, too, with the whole whales jumping out of water thing.

      Still, I don't see what's wrong with calling it piracy. Last game I stole was a 36' Queenship. And by "game," I mean "boat." Oh, and I murdered the crew. Arrr!

      --
      Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
    79. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copying music, movies, or software when the license prohibits it violates that license.

      Microsoft including GPL code in their product also violates the license.

      You cannot believe one is okay and not the other without being a hypocrite. In both cases, artists put vast amounts of time into creating works that were to be distributed under certain circumstances. You knew what those conditions were, and you chose to ignore them to suit your own petty desires. Luckily, we live in a "me me me" age, so it is acceptable for people to justify everything with "but it makes me feel good, so that must mean it is okay." and to think nothing of the larger implications of what you do. (Advertisers explicitly flatter you in order to make you feel good and thus want their product.)

      The fact is few people want to even look at themselves in a wholly objective manner and realize how much they do is self-serving and at the expense of others. It is going to be more than they want to admit, even to themselves.

    80. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by joelwyland · · Score: 1

      How about instead of pirating.. they "ninja'd" the games? Then we could bring this full circle as an internet debate.

    81. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      It is wrong because it violates the social contract you agree to by continuing to live in our society.

      I don't buy it. What would you have one who disagrees with "our" society, commit suicide? That's illegal too.

      I'll respect the law when they write respectable laws. I signed no contract to live in "our" society; there are no more frontiers to inhabit.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    82. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bad analogy. We're polyamorous. Kinda like the open-source of sexuality. We have a cc-by-nc-sa marriage license. ;-)

      In Nevada the CC-By-SA license is also permitted.

    83. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Standard+User+79 · · Score: 1

      Try the golden rule: You respect the terms the of creators because you want people to respect the terms you make for your creations.
      Assuming you create anything of course.

    84. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by penguin_dance · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me throw this wrench in the works. What if I buy a used (game/book/music) at Half Price Books? What if I borrowed it from a library and returned it? This still deprives the producer of revenue beyond the first user. I am paying for ownership in the first case, but that's only going to the store has the game, not the intellectual owner. And that, in essnce, has been their argument--it doesn't matter if Joe Blow bought the game, the minute he started sharing it with others, that's suddenly illegal.

      What it really comes to is not about sharing. That argument cannot be legitimately made unless they go after used book/music/game stores and libraries. It's about the item can now be shared with thousands all at once.

      If they really want to term it otherwise, it might be closer termed as counterfieting as you are making an unoffical copy of the software, movie, etc., much a one would make counterfit money.

      For the record I buy very few games these day--not because of piracy--but because they mostly suck. I don't buy music at all--they don't make much for my generation any more. The music they put out are for the same people who are more likely to download than purchase. However even with piracy, if you make a great game you're still going to make money. I'm looking forward to SPORE coming out. Yes, the pirate will serve that one up too, but it will still make money if it's as good as it looks. Another Wil game, The Sims--look how many that's sold or the And that's the main point: What a lot of publishers want to blame on priacy is really more due to putting out a poor product.

      --
      If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
    85. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I walk into a bookstore and steal a book, it is theft.

      If I print unauthorized copies of a book, and distribute it without the author's consent, this is copyright infringement.

      Do you understand the difference? Most legal systems do.

    86. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by The+Yuckinator · · Score: 1

      I call Bullshit. Bullshit to everyone saying it's not stealing. These are products available for purchase. If you acquire them without purchasing them, you are "stealing" them.

      I've been watching this bullshit argument fly around /. for a long time now and every time I read it, I wonder what other nitpicky bullshit arguments are cooked up by these people to absolve themselves from any wrongdoings? You folks must be a treat to live with/hang out with/be near - nothing is EVER your fault, right? That must be on account of your clearly superior intellect.

      Here's a radical idea: take responsibility for your actions!

      My name is The Yuckinator and I have been stealing software since 1985 when I got my Commodore 64. I download movies and songs/albums often - even ones I don't own and wouldn't ever have purchased otherwise. I have been downloading games for years. Feel free to get all uppity and say that if you're not actually "taking something away from someone else or depriving them of something" it's not stealing! That's just crap, and you know it.

      That may be acceptable in a linguistics class and perhaps if you want to go with strict legal definitions, but in the real world you're not fooling anyone with your bullshit fluffy argument. We all know that we're acquiring something that ought to be paid for without paying for it. However you care to justify it to yourself so that you feel better about it is fine by me, just realize that whether or not you like the word, you're stealing that game/song/album.

      Oh yes, yes you are. Quit the nitpicking bullshit. I know it, you know it and everyone else knows it. Your arguments hold no water with those of us who understand "reality".

      Note that I am not condemning your actions. I'll bleed usenet dry until the day my ISP blocks it, and then I'll find another ISP and start again.

      But please, don't pretend that your gains aren't ill-gotten. You and I both don't deserve to acquire these products of someone's imagination without compensating said person. That's not going to stop us, but at least I don't have any misconceptions of what's actually taking place when I download a new torrent.

    87. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Now why would I change my MO after nearly a decade? I'm a prick, that's part of my charm.

      I hate it when otherwise intelligent people read a part of something, disagree with it, get in a snit, and then stop comprehending the rest of what was written. I said copyright violation is wrong.

      But it is wrong for different reasons than theft is wrong. Each person should have rights to things they personally create. If I create a copy of something, barring any other agreements, that is MY work. Creators only have moral ownership of things they themselves create, not copies made by someone else.

      The reason copyright violation is wrong is that we DO have other agreements. We agree to give creators an artificial monopoly over things they have created, in order to encourage creation and sharing. Without that artificial monopoly, anyone would have the right to copy anything they could perceive, and the only recourse creators would have would be simply not to let others perceive their creations.

      I am giving up some of my natural rights in exchange for something I find more valuable than the right to copy (with my own work) anything I can see (with my own senses). To then turn around and copy something that another has been granted a monopoly on is breach of contract. That is the only reason it is wrong, and to claim differently is to claim ownership of MY senses and MY work without MY agreement, which is to claim I am your slave. I am not.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    88. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by hey! · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is a quite (unintentionally) interesting post. The words "stealing" and "piracy" are criticized here because they are inaccurate metaphors for the thing being described, chosen to sway the debate by their emotional impact. Here we have an AC troll who is trying to veer the conversation back into emotionalism by yet another inaccurate metaphor.

      You can see that the words "stealing" and "piracy" obscure the issue, without necessarily thinking that copyright infringement is acceptable.

      Some cases of piracy are reasonably close to theft: unauthorized commercial duplication for example. In this case, the copyright holders aren't deprived of the material, they are deprived of the revenue, which the infringer enjoys. Other cases are not very much like theft, but are still not very admirable. They are more like freeloading.

      Still other forms of copyright infringement represent the user trying to exercise a right he believes he has but which the copyright holder does not believe he has. In some cases that may be a legal right (such as archival copying), in other cases it may be a moral right, like replacing a CD lost in a fire. Such infringements have to be viewed on a case by case basis. Some are be reasonable and others are not, some are legal and others are not, but none are precisely "stealing" nor are any "piracy", which technically means robbery on the ocean without a valid legally recognized license from a sovereign nation.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    89. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      ok, first, let's assume that copyright is good and right, and ought to exist (and does), etc, etc.

      If you want to sell me some software, and I copy it from someone else, you've not been deprived of anything which you had in the first place (only expected income).

      If I give you some software (with source) for free, on the understanding that if you release a modified version of the software, you'll release the source to that, and you don't; you've deprived me of the modifications, because they're mine (or at least, they're as much mine as they are yours).

      In the former example the money isn't yours until I go through with the deal and that fact that I've got the software without accepting your deal doesn't mean that I'm depriving you of the specific money in my wallet that you were eyeing when you offered me the original deal. In the latter example the modifications are as much mine as yours, they don't become 'not mine' just because you've retained them in your sole posession, by depriving me of them, you are stealing them. (with appropriate fuzziness of the defintion of 'steal' to include 'keeping something that isn't yours')

      Ok, now assume that copyright doesn't exist.

      You offer to sell me software, I get it elsewhere. Tough.

      I give you software (and source) on the understanding that if you release a modified version you'll release the source to that, and you don't; Tough.

      --
      FGD 135
    90. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      I prefer the term "stealing games" myself. It fits well, does away with the positive connotations that the term "piracy" has gained in some circles, and -perhaps most important- it really makes the pirates mad.

      I have a better term: "conservatism". Because, you see, this whole copyright thing is pretty recent, having at most 400 years, and roughly 200 years in its current form.

      The problem with calling this conservatism, though, is that nowadays we call "conservatives" the people who defend ideas merely a few decades old. This in USA. In Europe, "conservatism" goes some more back, to roughly 200 years. But even that conservatism is, from the perspective of the pre-copyright status quo, 100% progressive hippie pot smokers with their crazy notions of treating ideas as property.

      So, maybe we could set for the term "paleoconservatism", or even "pre-copyrightist paleoconservatism". And it also has the advantage (if you think of it as such) of making pirates mad, at least those who think of themselves as progressive.

      Me? I'm a paleoconservative in everything, not only anti-copyrightism.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    91. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by hey! · · Score: 1

      Might I suggest "copyright infringement"?

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    92. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      You, sir, just made my day. Mod parent up.

    93. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by SoulReaverDan · · Score: 1

      Just a note. Legal=/=Right Illegal=/=Wrong It was illegal to revolt against Britain in the late 1700s, or to sit on a bus in the front seat in the 1950s if you were black, or to vote if you were a woman until the 1920s. Laws have a terrible history of being wrong.

    94. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by merreborn · · Score: 1

      When you pirate a work, you must by definition make a new copy. That copy can only be legally produced by the copyright holder. It would make no sense to simply destroy it, and so ownership of it reverts to the one legally able to produce it in the first place. Most of the time illegally-produced copies get destroyed anyway, but that need not be the case.

      In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder. By not returning the copy to them or buying it outright, you are in fact depriving them of something: a copy to sell or otherwise do with as they will.

      And so, piracy equals theft.

      Bullshit. If EA has 250,000 copies of Madden 2k10 on the shelf, and I download a copy via bittorrent, they'll still have 250,000 copies on the shelf.

      Now, if I walk in to the store and pocket one, *then* they'll be down to 249,999.

      By the logic you present, visiting a website displaying copyrighted images (which describes most of the web) is theft as well, since a copy of each image is made when you view it in your browser.

    95. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And when you can prove that one person "stealing" the game makes it impossible for somebody else to buy it, you might have a point. Until then you really ought to actually spend some time learning about the subject.

      Realistically, piracy has always been rampant, and despite the FUD to the otherwise, there's still a game industry. It's just that back in the late 80s and early to mid 90s the vast majority of game companies didn't waste money or effort fighting it.

      I personally won't buy games which have copy protection any more because it gets in the way of me enjoying the purchase I made.

    96. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone else said it much better than me: "Fuck em and their law"

    97. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Piracy (i.e. STEALING) deprives the original owner of his right to say what happens to the product that he or she produced. Pirates STEAL from copyright owners, so let's call it what it is - STEALING.

    98. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised you are the first to bite at that line. It was really meant to incite comment, but everyone else focused on the copyright crap.

      There is a vast marketplace of governments for you to choose from. If you don't like this one, you could try making a deal with any of the others.

      Last I checked, a free market in something does not guarantee you will find the exact choice you are looking for. No one owes you the choice you want.

      Now, there are other very important questions that go along with this idea that I did not bring up.

      First question: is it morally right to own more property than you can work yourself?

      If it is, then you have no valid complaint against governments of any type, as they are simply exercising valid group ownership of land, and have every right to enforce borders and either keep you out, or require you to agree to go along with their rules.

      Second question, what moral authority do property rights come from? If a person's claim to ownership of a thing is unilateral, why should others respect that claim? What are they getting from the bargain? Others who are party to the agreement should abide by it, but why should anyone who doesn't own property agree with people who claim they do? Besides force, that is.

      Personally, I don't think it is morally right to own more land than you can use, and I don't think governments should be able to enforce borders. I think claims to ownership should derive from mutual and unanimous consent: you protect my property, I protect yours, for all people. I think any land not directly being worked by a person or group should be available for anyone to use in any way that isn't harmful to others.

      What do you think?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    99. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that the problem is that _you_ feel it's theft.
      Society in general doesn't agree with you, and that is why copyright infringement is not a criminal act, and shoplifting is.

      The thing is that theft, in the everyday sense, is about two things: depriving someone else of property, and keeping it to yourself.

      The flaw here is that you are trying to apply physical world ideas to imaginary concepts. Property is having a piece of the world for you. That's scarce. And that is why I can't have what you have without depriving you of it. So if I do it without your consent, it's stealing.
      Intellectual things cannot be property, because they are not scarce. I can have what you have without your consent, and you keep your stuff as well.
      The thing with depriving you of potential revenue is not enough, because it's too indirect, and there are lots of ways I can harm your ability to get revenue, that are not seeing as theft either. Talking shit about your product could be theft, if you follow that road.

    100. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by menace3society · · Score: 3, Informative

      I prefer 'piracy'. The group ethics of freebooters during the golden age of sail is identical with the ethics of digital encryption-circumventors and copyright-ignorers.

      To understand, you have to realize that sailing in the 17th century was a miserable occupation, especially with the Royal Navy. The hours were wicked, the breaks short, and the work back-breaking. Officers (who were paid about 10 times what you were) were rewarded for treating you harshly. Rations were insignificant and insufficient (the practice of giving lime juice to sailors didn't start until the 19th century, so scurvy likely). You could even be forcibly press-ganged into serving on a ship, if you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

      As a pirate, however, there were many more men on a ship, meaning less work and more free time for all. Food and fresh water were easier to come by, since you didn't have to make long trans-oceanic voyages, so nutrition was better and servings more filling.

      The captain still earned more booty that the rest of the crew, but only by a factor of three or four, as shares of treasure were distributed proportionately. And speaking of captains, they were elected by acclaim, rather than imposed by remote authorities from the Admiralty.

      The characterization of pirates as bloodthirsty is mostly a historical relic inserted by the authorities to frighten children and to discourage sailors from becoming buccaneers. A few were psychopathic, it's true, but the punishment they meted out as victors was no worse than what they would have faced themselves at home. All the talk of bargains with the Devil or Death was a metaphor for the pirates exchange: they earned freedom and sovereignty, but had to pay for it with a price on their heads.

      In many cases the pirates proved better men than their opponents. Jean LaFitte fought alongside the Americans in the War of 1812, Capts. Morgan and Kidd plundered vessels in the name of the Crown, and Great Peter fought at sea to protect Friesland from its belligerent neighbors.

      The parallels to modern-day software/content piracy should be obvious. They believe in freedom, rather than monopolistic autocracy; they risk severe punishment; they advocate sharing the fruits of their labor; they are generally nicer people than most of their adversaries (game designers tend to be the best of the lot, but when it comes to music, movies, books, etc. the contrast is much more clear).

    101. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Hamoohead · · Score: 1

      It's not stealing as copying does not deprive the original owner of anything. . .

      Except, of course, the money I might have received for the sale of my work. This attitude, imho, is what has killed PC gaming. If, however, you were to copy a game that you had actually paid for in the first place, I would have no problem, as long as it is for your personal use (i.e. your not giving your copy away).

      --
      "If your parents never had children, chances are you wonât either." -Dick Cavett
    102. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Here's a radical idea! Read ALL of what other people post before getting in a snit and responding to things that weren't said, and making yourself look like an idiot.

      You look very stupid when you miss the part where I said that, even though it isn't theft, it is wrong. I also said specifically in reply to another post that I do not copy anything copyrighted. So I am not like you. I recognize that although it isn't theft, it is wrong (but for different reasons) and I don't do it.

      Unlike you, you amoral hypocrite.

      Let me ask you a question: why are fraud, buying stolen property, theft, and copyright violation all separate crimes? Why not just call it all theft?

      Let me ask you another few questions: do you own land? Is buying property that was originally stolen the moral equivalent of theft? Do you know who owned your land, originally? Were they paid for it fairly? Food for thought, isn't it?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    103. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that is an imaginary construct.
      You are defining theft. I can define theft as wearing blue shoes. The thing is that theft already has a meaning, and there is no such thing as "intellectual" property, it's an oxymoron.
      There is the "intellectual property" legal term, but it has nothing to do with property, neither in the legal sense, or in the everyday sense. It doesn't deal with things that can be possessed, period.

    104. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      What if the only things that I create are in the public domain? :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    105. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 1

      Why do people keep making this asinine argument?

      Sorry buddy, it's not an argument, it's the truth. Something can't be morally theft. Copyright infringement is morally wrong, or so I would argue. But it's not "morally theft". That doesn't even make sense. ``Depriving'' someone of theoretical income is not theft. Copying something, which deprives someone of a physical product, is theft. This is not. Period. Stop thinking otherwise. Nobody's saying "derp derp copyright infringement means i can steal games lol" (well, maybe some are, but they're not who we're talking about). They're letting you know that, quite literally, the act is not theft.

    106. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by colmore · · Score: 1

      That does probably let you off the hook.

      Of course if you use bittorrent, you're distributing. So you still might want to rationalize a little bit more.

      There's very little in law where one half of a transaction is illegal and the other isn't.

      --
      In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
    107. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by negRo_slim · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "stealing games"

      That is exactly the thought in my head when I played on some "private" World of Warcraft servers. Which are already offering this model of business. In that market rules of the game often relaxed to increase the rate of character progression for more casual players. Also often times the group running the emulated World of Warcraft server will accept donations and in exchange offer in game items of various levels. From 5USD for 5k gold to 250USD for collections of vastly overpowered items. Needless to say this makes for an unbalanced and unenjoyable experiance as the 13 year kid with a 25 dollar visa gift card is slaughtering you all day simply because he was willing to spend money.
      And therein lies the problem, the objects being sold must remain mostly cosmetic. Or else the game will become a whole let less fun as there will always be a core few willing to spend absurd amounts of time or money on such endeavors.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    108. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Right, and when I buy someone else's game instead of yours, I am also depriving you of money you might have received. So buying anyone else's stuff but yours should be illegal, as it all deprives you of money you might have otherwise gotten.

      Nice 'logic' there, buddy.

      Also, try reading the entire post next time. I said it was wrong, just not theft.

      If I cut off your head, that is stealing, not murder, because I am depriving you of something (your life). Yeah, that's it. There is no other crime than theft. And conversely, if it isn't theft, it must be okay.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    109. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by The+Yuckinator · · Score: 1

      Nope. Not a land owner, not interested in owning land either. How bout you?

      Amoral hypocrite? Wow. And here I thought were were talking about whether downloading something that ought to be bought off a shelf is or is not "stealing". I say yes, and I freely admit that I participate in said stealing practises. I fail to see how that makes me either amoral or a hypocrite.

      If you want to talk about reading all of something and not looking like an idiot, please note that I did not once directly mention you. I happened to reply to your post since you were yet another lover-of-semantics trying to profess that downloading copywritten material is not stealing, when in fact we all know that it is. Whether or not you participate in this pastime isn't any of my concern.

      thanks for your glowing insight into my personality, I'm sorry to see that you took my message personally when it was not aimed specifically at you.

    110. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by xtracto · · Score: 1

      Well... at least you won't call that stealing would you?

      BTW to the mods, parent comment is funny, don't you think so? even though it is trollish, it still made me laugh.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    111. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by PrimalChrome · · Score: 1

      Burglary and copyright violation (in the piracy example) are exhibitions of personal entitlement to something owned by another to the detriment of said owner/creator. Both go against both a legal precedent and social contract.

      To go home and use your Skil saw to recreate the wooden duck you saw at the Pottery Barn involves your senses, perception, and your work. It can still violate copyright, but it falls into your slavery argument. To digitally duplicate a work involves nothing of the sort. Nothing is being recreated and there is zero interpretation through senses and perception of the copyright infringer.

      So basically it comes down to we agree that it is wrong...but disagree on the categorization and semantics of the issue. (yes, I comprehend what you've written, I merely disagree with the perspective)

    112. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me thinks you doth protest too much.

      Did you steal that line of reasoning from your grade 8 ethics teacher? Oh - sorry...I mean - did you copyright infringe them?

      "Hey! Jimmy! We've got an iD-10-T error over here..."

    113. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by tb()ne · · Score: 1

      I'm confused - how does the copy belong to the original producer, other than via an artificial government-mandated monopoly?

      That is the only way it belongs to the original producer. Then again, the only way that your home or the property upon which it sits would belong to you is by an artificial government-mandated monopoly. Just ask the nomadic native Americans who were here before the Europeans arrived. If you can find any.

      Making a copy takes effort on the part of the copyer and none on the part of the original producer.

      And me entering your home, "borrowing" your bicycle, and riding it around all day while you're away takes effort on my part and none on yours.

    114. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Sigh. It isn't stealing. Fraud isn't stealing, it's fraud. Buying stolen property also isn't stealing, it is buying stolen property. Now, why do you suppose we call those things by different names, and have different laws regarding them, when they all amount to someone taking something that isn't rightfully theirs?

      Based on your argument, we should also do away with murder as a separate crime, because all it really is is stealing someone's life. In fact, the only crime is stealing, and if it isn't stealing, it isn't a crime.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    115. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by xtracto · · Score: 1

      Copyright infringement (my favorite replacement term) can either be a civil tort or criminal depending on the purpose and circumstances. In most cases, especially involving P2P sharing, the infringement is a civil tort.

      And depending on the country.
      IIRC, in Mexico, copyright infringment is a criminal offence.

      However:
      "only unauthorized commercial exploitation of the author's work represents copyright infringement. "

      That is, it must be copyright infringement "for profit".

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    116. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      I was agreeing with you up until your wifi part. Using somebody else's wifi isn't necessarily stealing their bandwidth. They'd have to be on one of those ridiculous pay per GB plans for it to be stealing. Otherwise, it'd just be using somebody else's wifi. If they didn't want you to use it, they would've locked it, or kicked you out and then locked it (and yes, the unlocked front door analogy works here).

      It's stealing if you take a newspaper from a newstand without paying for the newspaper. It's stealing if you take somebody's wallet, or even something as innocous as a comb, out of their purse. Intellectual property cannot be stolen, the temporary right to monopoly granted by the government can only be infringed upon.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    117. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by neural.disruption · · Score: 1

      Quoth Spun:

      You have STOLEN some of my time, and deprived me of income that I should have received for creating a program that you have found useful.

      Your argument is a fallacy. How would I be stealing your time? The time you spent doing the game is the same whether 1000 thousand people copies it or none. No time of yours is lost when someone copies it. I have two arguments for you: (1)If I got to the supermarket and copied a box of Cherrios with my nanoreplicator would that be theft? I did not deprive no one of nothing material, nor have I taken something that was yours. (2)If I copy, synthesize, a medicine without consent from the patent owner am I stealing anything from him? As with the argument above all the work involved is mine, the work he had discovering the medicine is exactly the same whether or not I copy it without permission. You can only argue that by making a copy of your game, DVD or whatever, I have not paid you royalties for the copyright that is rightfully yours. That is not the same as theft, I am only paying because I acknowledge the value of something, but if I did not buy you your product the time and money you invested it would be exactly the same. Only the income changes and in that case I think you will not accuse people of theft for not buying your products.

    118. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      What about ninjacy? I bet that'll make the pirates mad as hell too.

      All your pirates are belong to ninjas.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    119. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all fraud is stealing. There is lots of overlap and types of crimes that are subsets of other crimes. I could draw up a venn diagram of it all but deep down I think you know the truth but are just playing dumb. Or maybe you really are this ignorant and have your blinders on. Why do we give them all different titles and not just call it all "stealing"? Well the obvious answer is because there are different levels based on the impacts. ie; stealing a candy bar is hardly on par with stealing a life so we call them petty theft and murder to distinguish. I find it hard to believe you are really this idiotic but then again I do live in America and I see plenty of your kind on a daily basis. Who knows, maybe I am just intellectually superior to everybody I meet...

    120. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh bullshit.
      Only the fucking pirates are so full of their own shit.

      It's stealing, and you know it.
      It's wrong, and you know it.
      You're a thief, and you know it.

      There is not a chance in hell that you have actually never pirated something.

    121. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by audiocure · · Score: 1

      The point Spun was is trying to make isn't really pragmatic or legal - he's making a moral/value argument linked to the social contract, which is a very good one. You mention stealing wifi as bandwidth is a limited resource. Comparing this to copying software is a non sequitur fallacy: the compiled binary is an infinite resource. Additionally, even though the time used to create the product is limited, when you copy software that isn't yours and use it (a game) for personal enjoyment, you are not depriving the creator any resources that he would have otherwise maintained.

      While it may be technically illegal to download software and games that aren't purchased, that does not address or influence the moral question in any way. It was once legal to own other people in this country....

    122. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      And wiretapping and monitoring everyone you can with the help of the telcos isn't a crime.

      You know it's fucking illegal, just as it's illegal to sneak into a movie theater or ball game that has a few empty seats.

      What you get convicted or pursued for is not the issue. What is legal or illegal is not the issue.

      It's. Fucking. Stealing.

    123. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "it really makes the pirates mad."

      No what really makes pirates mad is the fact that game quality is mostly shit and games that they pay for are DRM ridden. Next is the fact that prices haven't changed given the economies of scale, whenever a game sells millions, it's sequel never goes down in price even though the economies of scale are there.

      Next is the issue of the products non scarcity, if someone came out with a matter copier tomorrow that could replicate anything entire industries would go bankrupt overnight. It's just the crazy capitalist extremists that hate the fact that computers have created non-scarcity out of intellectual works, they are trying to enclose the last commons which should never be enclosed (ideas) because these are not scarce. I can't steal a binary string of numbers from you, I can only copy it.

      Consumer socialism is now POSSIBLE, anyone who doesn't celibrate this fact is either a tyrant, a kooky capitalist, or both.

    124. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      It's not stealing as copying does not deprive the original owner of anything.

      I know, when I took a car from Hertz and returned it several days later, they bitched and moaned. But, I looked over their records and they never sold out of SUVs, so I didn't reprive them of anything. Why should that be considered "stealing"?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    125. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. That is friggin genius! You ARE super S-M-R-T!!!

      That must the same same line of reasoning that all them fancy lawyers use which is why we never see any capital murder charges pled down to grand-theft.

      Thanks for clearing that up! I can go back or Ork now. Nanu-Nanu!

    126. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      What problem? Terrorism, raping children, piracy, they're all one and the same, right?

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    127. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by raftpeople · · Score: 1

      Definition of theft:
      In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. As a term, it is used as shorthand for all major crimes against property, encompassing offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, mugging, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception) and sometimes criminal conversion

      That's pretty broad and includes many activities that don't involve "real" property. For example, embezzlement that merely transfers money from one account to another is just as theoretical as copyright infringement in the sense that it is just a manipulation of bits.

    128. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The physicality of the item, or the lack thereof, is not important.

      Wrong. The "physicality" is fundamental to the issue.

      Your bank account scam analogy is fatally flawed. You said "shaved". As in, people's bank accounts are being reduced. That is theft. A whole lot of people lost a little money out of their accounts. That does not happen with copying.

      Even the immaterialness of your bank account example is flawed. Money is a convenient representation of all scarce resources, and as such must itself be scarce. Easily done by using some sort of material representation such as coinage. But if it's done electronically, then it must be kept scarce by other means. Otherwise the economy would have to go back to barter. Creating more money, which is what copying money would do, is another crime known as counterfeiting. Unlike money, information is not scarce. And information does not need to be kept scarce to be valuable, just the opposite in most cases.

      when you pirate software, you have deprived the copyright holder of something which belongs to them: the copy you made.

      No. Information is not a good, and cannot be owned. It isn't material. Now, information can be "fixed" in a medium, and that material item can indeed be owned. But the author has a copyright, not a property deed. Copyrights can be owned, media can be owned, but information cannot be owned. We often say of people who have paid for a medium containing a copy of something that they "own a copy of" or even just "own" some album, book, movie, or whatever, but what is meant is that they own the medium, not the information on it. There are many things they can legally do with the medium such as sell it, that they can't do with the information. Fixing a copy of some copyrighted info to a medium does not somehow assign the ownership of that medium to the copyright holder, that's not how the law works.

      We can't have a good argument on these issues until we can agree on the terms. Your logic is founded on redefining the basic terms to mean things they do not mean. There's nothing more to say until you stop equating copying with theft. Copying is NOT theft. It's not even similar to theft. Copying isn't always a crime, theft is always a crime. Copyright infringement is always a violation of the law, but not all copying is copyright infringement. Murder, speeding, perjury, vandalism, fraud, and counterfeiting are always violations of the law. But none of those are theft. There are many, many crimes that are not theft. Copyright infringement is not theft. Copyright infringement is not theft. One more time: Copyright infringement is not theft.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    129. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to think that US law is the only law that matters. If you weren't so egocentric maybe you could realize this... then again you are probably just a typical American and it is required for you to be ignorant? In general terms if you take something that isn't yours it is stealing. When you purchase a license to store a copy of and play a game then allow others to "copy" that license they are in effect stealing from the company that created the software. I like to think that we can talk in general terms and not be specific to any locale in terms of law. If you pirate from some country with no copyright enforcement laws and are not under the jurisdiction of the US it doesn't make it not piracy.

      Piracy is stealing. You can all try to avoid it with semantics and specifics of laws in your local jurisdiction. At the end of the day, when you take it at face value... it is STEALING.

    130. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by raftpeople · · Score: 1

      Do you think that buying stolen property is theft, plain and simple? Is fraud also theft, plain and simple? Then if you own any land, you are a thief, plain and simple, as all property was either stolen from its original owners, or they were defrauded of it.

      Fraud is covered by the term theft from a legal perspective, so yes, fraud is theft.

    131. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by top_down · · Score: 1

      The physicality of the item is indeed unimportant. They are still very different crimes however. Piracy is productive, _you make a copy_ and end up with two products so more people can enjoy it. In the case of stealing there is just one product that changes hands.

      This is an extremely important difference when you want to seriously analyse the problem from an economic point of view. Different things should have different names.

      If something is bad, just say it's bad. Don't call it stealing because you are too lazy to argue it's bad.

      --
      Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
    132. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by nharmon · · Score: 1

      Okay, in the whole world, copyright infringement is only sometimes a crime. However everywhere theft is always a crime. Argument still works.

      And the only reason why the media companies want copyright infringement to be thought of as theft is so they can leverage hefty theft-esque fines and consequences, instead of relatively smaller torts you find in copyright infringement laws.

      When you call copyright infringement theft, you make a mockery of private property law.

    133. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Standard+User+79 · · Score: 1

      Then I would imagine you have loss all sense of self and achieved nirvana. congrats :)

    134. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      When you pirate a work, you must by definition make a new copy. That copy can only be legally produced by the copyright holder. It would make no sense to simply destroy it, and so ownership of it reverts to the one legally able to produce it in the first place. Most of the time illegally-produced copies get destroyed anyway, but that need not be the case.

      In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder. By not returning the copy to them or buying it outright, you are in fact depriving them of something: a copy to sell or otherwise do with as they will.

      And so, piracy equals theft.

      Copyright is an artificial monopoly provided by the government as an incentive to create and release creative works.

      Yes. So what?

      Monopolies are bad, mmkay? It's the introduction of artificial scarcity to accommodate business processes invented before mass reproduction. Not to mention that it means that copyright protection is an artificial construct that ought to be reexamined when it is proven to be either ineffective or counterproductive.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    135. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Somegeek · · Score: 1

      What is theft? It is taking something from someone without their permission.

      I understand that the act of illegally copying the program/movie/song whatever, in itself, is not theft but is copyright infringement. My argument is that the 'infringer', when they utilize the copy, is utilizing my work without compensating me for my time. They have taken a fraction, large or small, of my effort, my time, the energy that it took to create it. They have taken it without my permission, and deprived me of the compensation which they should have paid me. It is not theft of a physical object, but it sure as hell is theft of my time. It may not be theft in a physical sense, but it sure as hell is theft in a moral sense.

      Copyright Infringement is a type of theft, and nothing less. Infringers are thieves, and nothing more.

      --
      And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
    136. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Am I stealing from you if I choose not to buy from you, but from someone else?"

      No, because you do not have my product.

      "No? Yet I am depriving you of revenue, isn't that stealing? No?"

      again, you do not have my product.

      "Then depriving you of revenue by copying your product isn't stealing either."

      Yes, you are now stealing. You now have my product and didn't pay for it.

      No matter how everyone here likes to twist the language and justify their illegal downloading of software, it is stealing. Whether you like it or not, the product is not being offered for free and you have to pay for it. Don't like the price? Don't use the product. Go find a competing product.

    137. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by silanea · · Score: 1

      The only law a "pirate" breaks is copyright law, property law is completely untouched. If it were, we'd already have seen a flood of lawsuits to that regard. If you find a legal text that supports your interpretation, please do provide it. But I very much doubt it.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    138. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      I wish people would realize that the thing of value in "Intellectual Property" is not the created work itself, but the ability to create new works. If I copy and redistribute works and claim it is mine, I am attempting to acquire the important thing: the credit for creating the work. If I just distribute the work, and point everyone back at the original creator, I have kept the one scarce thing intact: the attribution of the work. That is, if people want more similar work, they will go to the one that created that work - not the one who distributed it.

      I think the system would fix itself if things focused less on the "copies" or the media, but on attribution. Being famous as an artist means people want the art from you, not from someone else. Instead of worrying about demand for copies of a work you already created, worry about demand for works you have not yet created - that is where you guarantee income.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    139. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Not all fraud is theft. And if you look, you will see that, although fraud where property is concerned is considered a type of theft in US law, copyright violation is not. Fancy that.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    140. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bravecanadian · · Score: 1
      God damn you guys live in a reality distortion field only rivaled by Steve Jobs.

      If you want to sell me some software, and I copy it from someone else, you've not been deprived of anything which you had in the first place (only expected income).

      ohhhhkay.. granted you didn't physically take anything.. but basically it boils down to you taking someone else's work for nothing simply because you can easily copy it. But I understand the argument.

      In the latter example the modifications are as much mine as yours, they don't become 'not mine' just because you've retained them in your sole posession, by depriving me of them, you are stealing them

      LOL - This is EXACTLY what I meant in my previous post. I want my cake and want to eat it too! Guess what! By the prevailing slashdot piratelogic you said above: I didn't deprive you of anything you already had either! (only expected modifications). You still have the original source without my modifications.. Nah nah nah.. by your own logic I can take all that sweet GPL source code and do anything I want and not give it back. Yay! Information wants to be freeeeee! [/sarcasm]

      This is why I will never, ever, understand how people so zealously pro-GPL can at the same time rain down hate on artists/coders/movie studios/software companies and the others that create work that just happens to be easily copied. The fact that it is easily reproduced does NOT mean it was cheap in terms of time or money or inspiration to make in the first place.

      That is why copyright exists.. so these people can recoup their investment.

      You can't justify one and not the other no matter how you try.. sorry.

      As a society we either protect people's work or we don't. Can't have it both ways.

    141. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Gah. Borked formatting for the loss. Here's what it was supposed to look like.

      When you pirate a work, you must by definition make a new copy. That copy can only be legally produced by the copyright holder. It would make no sense to simply destroy it, and so ownership of it reverts to the one legally able to produce it in the first place. Most of the time illegally-produced copies get destroyed anyway, but that need not be the case.

      In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder. By not returning the copy to them or buying it outright, you are in fact depriving them of something: a copy to sell or otherwise do with as they will.

      And so, piracy equals theft.

      Interesting. I hadn't thought of it in this fashion.
      However, this also means that what you're paying for is a license to use, not a good in a fashion or form. Personally, I find this to be far more dangerous to society than lack of copyright controls.

      Copyright is an artificial monopoly provided by the government as an incentive to create and release creative works.

      Yes. So what?

      Monopolies are bad, mmkay? It's the introduction of artificial scarcity to accommodate business processes invented before mass reproduction. Not to mention that it means that copyright protection is an artificial construct that ought to be reexamined when it is proven to be either ineffective or counterproductive.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    142. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Well, this is where we get into the nitty gritty of how things really work. In effect, at birth the social contract was offered to you and your parents accepted the contract on your behalf establishing you as a citizen of the country in which you live.

      If you choose not to abide by the social contract, then you should, in good conscience, renounce your citizenship. Your citizenship is your assent to the social contract. Of course, there are consequences to renouncing your citizenship, but there are always consequences.

      Of course, I'm just writing to point out that by maintaining your citizenship you are maintaining your agreement to your contract with society.

      Unethical laws shouldn't be obeyed, just because they're laws. But you have to remember if you choose not to obey the laws, you may end up paying with freedom or your life. Sometimes the prize is worth the price.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    143. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Danse · · Score: 1

      It is copyright violation, which is wrong, but not stealing. It is wrong because it violates the social contract you agree to by continuing to live in our society.

      Of course there is also the argument that copyright law, as it exists today, violates the Constitution, and the various laws that have been quickly and quietly pushed through congress to extend the duration and rights associated with copyright, have not giving consideration to the public interest or opportunity for public comment.

      At its core, copyright is a bargain between those who create new works and the public. It should be balanced and fair to both, yet virtually every change to it since its inception has extended the rights of the creators without any attempt to balance those changes. Now that the law is pretty obviously unjust, it's no surprise that many people don't respect it. Because it's not a big voting issue, politicians feel free to sell out the public at every opportunity.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    144. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Danse · · Score: 1

      However, if I'm buying someone else's product instead, that implies that your game has no value to me, since I believe your competitor's product to be superior enough to spend my time on it rather than on your game.

      No, it just implies that the competitor's product has more value you than the other guy's product. The other product could still be quite valuable as well though. Either way, it's still a different animal than physical theft, which is why we call it copyright infringement. Copyright is a monopoly right granted to the creator for a (supposedly) limited period of time. Violating that monopoly right isn't the same as stealing. In fact, if you get caught, you'd probably face a much stiffer penalty than if you had stolen the equivalent value in cash or goods.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    145. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well put, mod up

    146. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, the most common thing I download is a product thats not actually for sale.

      Nobody will sell me DRM free DVD rips.

      I don't want to have a thousand DVD cases clogging up a whole wall, and I don't want to have to fuck around with easily damaged discs (in some cases the god damn ink on the labels causes damage, WTF?)

      I wan't a central file server I can use to stream movies to a computer and/or TV, I want a compressed copy because thats saves me hard drive space by about a factor of ten over the uncompressed DVD's. And I require no DRM because I don't want to see my movie collection getting flushed away because some corporation decided to drop support for my particular flavour of DRM.

      Surprisingly nobody sells this commodity, which I can only imagine would be quite popular, and have almost zero overhead cost, making it a wonderful source of profit. However thanks to TBP I can easily find others of a like mind who will happily supply me with the product I desire.

      Market correction Indeed. Sell me the product I want, or I'll find it somewhere else.

    147. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because it's wrong, does not make it stealing, or murder, or anything other thing that does not describe the act. If copyright infringement is too long for you, then I'm OK with misusing "piracy". At least were not likely to confuse it with it's true meaning.

    148. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mark-t · · Score: 1
      Actually, if one copies something without authorization from the copyright holder, one *DOES* deprive the copyright holder of something: a certain measure of his exclusivity on his right to copy. Exclusive, by definition, means nobody else is supposed to do it, so copying without a copyright holder's permission inherently deprives the copyright holder of some measure of his exclusivity.

      Whether this exclusivity is an artificial social construct created by the formulation of copyright is irrelevant to that point, and only an issue if one wishes to question the very notion of copyright in the first place.

    149. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Minozake · · Score: 1

      ISPs could monitor your downloads and cut you off. I know my ISP does that. My parent works for them and my friend's brother got in trouble for downloading Photoshop (they sent a letter dictating that if they did it again their service would be cut).

      --
      http://sourcemage.org/ - Have fun :)
    150. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      "You are ... depriving the producer of revenue"

      This is a fallacy on two fronts. First of all it rests entirely on the unproven notion that a pirate would have paid for the product if he or she didn't pirate it. Second of all, not all copyrighted products involve financial exchange, so the copyright holder may not be out any money. BSD and GPL programs, for example, are protected by copyright, but are freely distributed, and particularly in the case of the GPL, it's perfectly possible to copy such a product without permission from the copyright holder, because for example, you don't agree with the terms of the license and attempt to do something that the license disallows (although it's not that the GPL limits what you can do with the software per se, it really only limits who it gives permission to copy the software to those who agree with its terms).

    151. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by j_166 · · Score: 1

      I'm partial to 'killing and raping games'. It makes about as much sense as stealing or piracy, and makes you sound tougher.

    152. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My favorite solution? Don't replace it. Any reasonable human being would realize that words often have more than one meaning and that the meanings of words change. Piracy now means a particular form of copyright infringement where a party distributes a work without the authorization of the copyright holder. Get over it.

      Now, whether content producer's 'stick my head in a hole in the ground and it will go away' approach will allow them to survive going forward is a whole other question.

    153. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This can work the other way around too, if you steal a game you are depriving the producers of said game of revenue;

      No, you're not. You're assuming (wrongly, like all the copyright holders) that if it weren't possible for someone to pirate a game, that they would actually purchase it.

      There's lots of kids that pirate high-end CAD software and 3D design software. Would these kids purchase this software if they couldn't pirate it? Of course not. They can't afford thousands of dollars per seat. They only use this software (if you can even call it "using", rather than just "messing around with") because they're able to get it for free very easily. If they couldn't, they'd find something else to occupy their time.

    154. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Surt · · Score: 1

      I think most people can see the difference between embezzlement and copyright infringement. In the one case, the victim hasn't lost any bits, in the other he has. Now if you had a bank employee artificially creating new accounts with money in them without taking that money from anyone else, I think that would be about the same, in that the only loss that occurs is in depreciating the value of the bits held by a third party.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    155. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mark-t · · Score: 1

      he day before the licensing act of 1622, it was totally moral and legal to copy anything you wanted. Then the next day, wham! Illegal.

      Before the act, the creator of a work had no legal exclusive rights over the work either. It's only because the creator is being granted these rights by law that infringing on those rights then becomes illegal. It was seen as particularly important to give the creator these legal rights because in the decades that followed after the invention of the printing press, it became evident that copying something reliably was no longer so labour intensive or error prone that it was cost prohibitive for someone other than the benefactor who originally funded the work's creation to do so. It took, if I am not mistaken, about 150 years after the printing press was invented before the notion of copyright was given legal standing. Not much time at all, given the period.

    156. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Surt · · Score: 1

      There's no free market in governments any more. They're all colluding to enforce things like WIPO and virtually all have heavy restrictions on legal immigration and emigration.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    157. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by cliffski · · Score: 1

      If you make a product, you evaluate how many people are likely to be in the target market, and put up huge up-front costs to create a product that will make a profit if a reasonable proportion of the target market that wants it, buys it.
      If you download (steal/copy whatever the fuck makes you sleep at night) the game, then clearly you were in the target market and wanted it.
      But you just shrunk that potential target market by 1.

      Now lets assume that everyone acts like you. whats the new target market size?

      0

      Whats the amount of new products it makes sense to fund?

      0

      Well done. you just killed off gaming, unless of course, you assume that 99% of people are honest, and you can leech off the products that they pay o have created.
      So maybe you aren't a thief, or a pirate, just a freeloading leech.
      Happy?

      I make games for a living. I know every days, dozens if not hundreds of potential customers who would otherwise help me stay in business just steal the games from the web. They like the games, they want them, they just think its beneath them to pay the guy who made them. How motivated do you think this makes me to keep making PC games? as opposed to business software?
      There is a good reason so few developers give a fuck about the PC platform these days.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    158. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Surt · · Score: 1

      Wear and tear. Under the table leasing of cars to employees. Lost time wondering where their car was. Shade for their parking lot. Lots of ways to identify what you deprived them of.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    159. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 1

      It is wrong because it violates the social contract you agree to by continuing to live in our society.

      Um, no. This kind of inane comment does nothing to help the problem of copyright law.

      It's wrong because some people you don't know said it's wrong and you don't have any real say in the matter.

      --
      Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    160. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by cliffski · · Score: 1

      if you bought someone elses game, their game was better, and the free market is working fine.
      If you actually preferred his game, yet you decided to take it and not pay for it, you just blew that free market to bits. He thinks nobody likes his game, makes no sequel, and maybe goes out of business.
      Markets rely on signals, ideally in the form of money going from satisfied consumers to efficient producers. If you can't see how subverting the whole signaling process isn't the same as buying from a competitor... then I don't know how else to explain it.

      Understand that when content producers say they are deprived of revenue they are being SPECIFIC. They mean that someone who knew of the product and WANTED the product, did not pay for it. Nobody expects to get revenue for something that the customer didn't want, and this is NOT the issue. It only ever comes up when people desperately try to talk themselves into thinking pirating stuff is harmless.
      It isn't.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    161. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      copywrong, copywrongdoing, copydamage, etc.

    162. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      "Children may not be dying, but they are in a state of flux. We're seeing parents and pediatricians blaming child rape for all the ills of children, but attempts to rein in rapists with the help of DRM only annoys and mobilizes the legitimate sexual partners of your children. The solution? According to David Perry of Shiny Games, children are going to be free to fuck."

    163. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      This is an semantic debate, a meaningless one at that. If you're a game developer and you sink everything you have into making a single good game, sell it to just one person who then gives free copies to 1,000 people (the max. population in my example), then you will not be able to recoup your costs for development or make a profit. The incentive to develop games commercially is lost. You go back to your day job of factory working and occasionally make little games for fun. This is what the proponents of copyright infringement as theft might argue, and it works because there is something fundamentally unfair about enjoying the labor of one person without compensating them fairly.

    164. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by servognome · · Score: 1

      You seem doubly confused. If someone violates the "exlusivity" of your property, that's called trespassing, not theft.

      But it isn't exclusivity of property, it is exclusivity of distributing reproductions which is closer to counterfeiting.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    165. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Snaller · · Score: 1

      "When you pirate a work, you must by definition make a new copy"

      And stealing is removing an item so others can't use it. So its not stealing.

      "In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder."

      That they can have a copyright on a sufficient mass of electrons spinning in certain directions is sick and twisted and must be purge from any sensible law.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    166. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then what do we call the pirates today? I mean, there doesn't seem to be any honor in slitting a man's throat and dumping him into the ocean just so that you can steal his fuel and sell his GPS and VHF radio on the black market?

    167. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by merreborn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you download (steal/copy whatever the fuck makes you sleep at night) the game, then clearly you were in the target market and wanted it. But you just shrunk that potential target market by 1.

      False assumption. Some, if not most, people who download illegal copies of software have no interest in purchasing the software in the first place. They were never potential buyers.

      You might as well claim, "Hey, slashdot should start charging for pageviews! They're serving a million pages a day for free! If they started charging $1/page, they'd make a million dollars a day!"

      As you raise the price of an item, (from $0 to the actual MSRP) the number of people willing to buy at that price decreases. Basic economics.

      I understand that you want to get paid for you work. So do I. But copyright violation is not theft, and you can't assume that every copyright violation is a lost sale.

    168. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Wear and tear.

      Interesting. I can only listen to a song (for instance) so many times before I'm bored with it. Most songs get "overplayed" or "played out" over time and stop selling. So, is music piracy producing wear-and-tear on the song? Could it prevent a movie from including it on the soundtrack because it's played out? Could game piracy prevent a game from being reskinned and sold to a different market?

      Under the table leasing of cars to employees.

      That sounds illegal to me.

      Lost time wondering where their car was.

      Akin to the lost time spent trying to prevent piracy?

      Shade for their parking lot.

      This one is ludicrus.

      A lot of non-physical factors you mention, with the exception of wear and tear.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    169. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by ichigo+2.0 · · Score: 1

      You are both depriving the producer of revenue AND making use of their product without paying for ownership. It's much like 'stealing' wifi access from your neighbor. The only physical aspect of the theft involves electrons/impulses/etc...

      Who owns the electrons?

      What I find amusing about all this copyright baloney is the lopsidedness of it all. Why are the digital copiers singled out? Just today, I reminisced about a movie I once saw. Surely I must have deprived the filmmaker of at least 5 dollars by "watching" the illegal copy I had in my brain!

    170. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Surt · · Score: 1

      The wear and tear argument isn't very comparable. The direct/indirect loss of value is precisely where the argument over copyright infringement vs theft comes from. Some people believe indirect loss of value matters, others believe only direct loss of value matters. The wear and tear on the car is direct loss of value. The overplay of music via piracy is just another argument for indirect loss of value.

      If you don't cover your parking space with a car, it gets more sunshine, and the cement/tar is more likely to crack, requiring costly repairs. The point being, there are physical consequences to the car not being there.

      Under the table leasing of cars is certainly illegal, but beneficial, so it's a cost. Would you argue that taking a drug dealer's illegal cocaine isn't stealing?

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    171. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by aeschenkarnos · · Score: 1

      Also, it makes all those annoying people who care about correct word usage mad too.

    172. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Emperor+Zombie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The distinction between theft and copyright infringement is not meaningless at all. Yes, they are both crimes, and yes, they both deprive people of revenue; however, they are not the same crime and should not be treated as such.
      Let's revisit your example, but in this case somebody starts murdering anyone who bought the game. After a couple news reports, people might stop purchasing the game for fear of being murdered. Obviously the murderer is depriving the developers of sales revenue, so by your logic we should charge him with theft, right? Not murder?

      --
      I'm so excited I just made water in my pantaloons!
    173. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Dripdry · · Score: 1

      I think the natural argument against this type of statement goes as follows: Yes, you're right, you have not stolen something from someone. However, what you *have* taken away is the impetus to do business. The reason why you would engage the creator of a work (or creator of a physical object) is what is at stake. If you have something already, what incentive do you have to buy it? Your desire to run or use a piece of software is what creates the transaction. The maker of said object or software created something of worth to people, making them desire it. Take that desire away and there's no deal, right? I'm playing devil's advocate here a little bit, but I really think that this is the crux of the entire software piracy issue. Take away someone's desire to own something (anything!) and they will not make a transaction. You do not steal an object, you steal a desire (sounds kind of melodramatic, huh?) Of course there are people that still wish to give money, like National Public Radio for instance, for getting something, but let's not bring that into the picture, huh? :)

      --
      -
    174. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This talk about meanings is not meaningless. Quite the contrary. It is fundamental to whether the grievances against "piracy" are righteous.

      Your hypothetical independent game developer-- does this person even exist, or is he a figment of your imagination? Do you have any idea of the organization needed to produce a hit game these days? Anyway, he needs a different business model. Yes, there are different business models. You write as if it's copyright or nothing. Not true!

      you will not be able to recoup your costs for development or make a profit.

      Bull. WoW, Everquest, 2nd Life, and all those seem to be doing quite well.

      The incentive to develop games commercially is lost.

      Bull again. See above list of games.

      there is something fundamentally unfair about enjoying the labor of one person without compensating them fairly.

      Yes indeed, just like corporations do to software developers today! Work for hire, you know. There is something fundamentally unfair about 3rd parties being able to squeeze money out of consumers forever for something that took perhaps a year to produce. A lifetime of income for a year of someone else's work? As an employee, I have written software. They used my software long after my departure. And I didn't get paid any portion of whatever income the company may have made off of my work. I got my pathetic salary and not a penny more. Copyright isn't doing the little guy any favors, not in that kind of environment.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    175. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by grishnav · · Score: 1

      And neither would staying on his land be. It's called "trespassing."

      Sheese, people.

    176. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by grishnav · · Score: 1

      If you OWN the house it is yours to pass to your decendants forever (or until it burns or someone steals it).

      In most places, you only rent property from the .gov. Yay property taxes!

    177. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      so, you have AGAIN missed the argument.

      If you have a modified version of my code (having released the binaries) then those modifications are as much mine as yours as per the agreement we made when I have you the source in the first place. If you acquired the source elsewhere, where you didn't come under such an agreement, that's a diferent problem. Those modifications are mine, and you're 'stealing' them by not turning them over.

      In the sale of software example, I haven't accepted your agreement. The money in my wallet is not, by default, yours, so I'm not stealing it by not handing it over. The problem boils down to exactly the same one as the above situation of acquiring the source code elsewhere.

      They're both copyright infringements because the software was acquired without an agreement being made. But, in the former situation, assuming that the source was acquired without a copyright infringement, you are 'stealing' because we had a deal that you'd release source with binaries and you haven't honoured it.

      Copyright infringement exists because no deal was made. GPL theft exists because an agreement was made and subsequently broken. Neither is right, but they are different.

      --
      FGD 135
    178. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If I set up a tent on your land, am I stealing your property rights? Or am I trespassing? Maybe we should call trespassing RP theft (real property). But no one would do that. It isn't theft because they didn't take your land. Even if they steal your dirt, they didn't steal your land (like stealing a copy from a store doesn't infringe copyright). Nothing someone does can invalidate the title held by you for that plot, unless they forge documents to file or break into the land office and swap paperwork.

      By depriving me of that right without paying me agreed upon value, you're committing theft.

      By parking a car on your land and depriving you of use of it, has someone committed theft? A plot of land has an agreed upon value, and they are preventing you from using it, so you shouldn't concern yourself with laws like dumping or trespassing, but instead should get them prosecuted for theft. Of course, it would be considered silly by all to call someone that dumped a car on your property a thief, just as it's absurd to say the same about someone that copys a game. They infringe on some right, but they do not take that right (and you must *take* something for there to be a theft), nor do they take anything else from you. They add something (a copy of a game, or a car to your land) that you don't want and violates your rights, but making something is the opposite of theft, even if it's making something you don't like.

    179. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      it's funny, I like open relationships in concept... I wouldn't want to date someone and watch them gawk at someone else, thinking, "Yeah, you're not touching that ;P" ... but I'm not so much comfortable banging someone else's girlfriend, or directly addressing people mine sleeps with about that exact topic. Sort of like, we both know, we talk about it, but I'd rather not actually face it directly.

      Not that it bothers me. It's a validation thing. I'd be comfortable talking about that stuff with the SO, but not so comfortable talking about it with anyone else involved because of self-image. (This doesn't seem like an EXTREMELY bad problem, since it does show more comfort with your relationship partner than with the rest of the world, which is good. I guess.) ... would be nice if I actually had an SO though. I can handle monogamy... but I need a hell of a lot more than "I like you and you're cute so let's go out" to form any relationship at all. Ah well.

    180. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by emjay88 · · Score: 1

      The only valid justification for IP laws (IMHO) is for the benefit of society.

      What about for the benefit of (for example) software houses that spend thousands (millions?) of dollars paying designers, programmers, marketers, managers etc etc to build software which is then released as 1's and 0's to the whole world? The first person who buys it can easily just tell the next person about the 1's and 0's and copying them takes no skill whatsoever (unlike paintings for example which can't be easily reproduced at the same quality).
      If we're looking at it morally, it is moral to just copy the work of the software house and deprive* them of the money that would be used to pay their employees? What if the software they develop is a completely new way of doing things? The designers and planners who did all the work get little or less reward than they are "entitled" to for doing it.
      This gets into the reason for "copy protection" and DRM. People who made "creative works" are trying to prevent them being obtained without compensating the owner.
      So hey, what do you know, there is another valid justification for IP laws!

      I've seen the argument "but you aren't removing anything physical from the owner!" so many times and sometimes supported by "if i could copy my bank account and give the copy to you, I would". Of course people fail to remember that if everyone was just copying money, it would be worth nothing. The same thing is analogous to software/music/movies. If you can make unlimited copies for free, then the product itself becomes worthless.

      *before you all start whining "But it's not depriving if i wasn't going to buy it anyway!" let me present you with this: whenever you are about to download software/music/movies/whatever and you know that you are infringing/violating copyright or stealing or whatever you want to call it, get a piece of paper. Draw two squares on the paper, one just above the other. Then write next to the top square "I want this software/music/movie/etc". Next to the bottom square write "I don't want this software/music/movie/etc". Then tick the box that applies. If you tick the "I want this.." box: Go and buy it**. If you tick the "I don't want this..." box: then don't download it.

      --
      1178161 is prime...
    181. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      That is far from being my logic. My example, as I indicated, was my observation of what "theft" proponents argue. And I was correct in saying that this position does work.

      Look at the cable companies in the US. Mine in particular is a major player in the industry, and a horrible, dishonest monopoly which hides behind an allegedly cute CG mascot. My provider runs local commercials often depicting honest American consumers being forced to pay higher prices for all sorts of things (including food), because of someone skipping out on the bill. The logic is that a cable "thief" is robbing consumers of a finite resource -- not just the original creator. This position seems to be working. Some might argue that physically connecting to hot coax cables creates a huge burden on the cable network; but to that elfin magical theory, I have to retort: then reduce the load by removing the 30 or so scrambled channels I have piping into my cable box.

      My point is, the distinction between theft and copyright is self-evident to anyone who can think logically. The people who say it isn't from my experience tend to be consumers who are easily manipulated by cutesy CG mascots and angry looking attorneys, or people who own and provide content.

      I propose that we try to separate unauthorized use of commercial software from copyright altogether. Copyright infringement predates digital property. It's purpose wasn't so much the protection of exclusivity in ideas as it was the prevent one from taking another's ideas and passing it off as one's own. In software piracy, you have a different phenomenon. It's bootlegging.

    182. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      Read my response above for a clarification of my point. You're arguing an example I gave of an opposing position I don't have.

      But to answer your questions. I do know exactly what is needed to produce a hit game these days.

      As for copyrights, I think there needs to be a new model for protecting digital properties. I'm uncomfortable with the use of the antiquated copyright system which was useful at best to prevent someone from taking my writing and passing it off as their own, or publishing it for sale as if it were theirs.

      Personally, I do not accept that the software market is being injured by piracy -- the thesis for this whole debate. For one, it is impossible to know how many copies of your software are being bootlegged. The numbers generated are pulled out of asses in order to be as dramatic as possible, but really, I have no idea how many kids on myspace are "illegally" using Photoshop.

      I bring up photoshop for a reason. It's such a popular application even among non professional creative types that its name is now a verb. It's probably a heavily pirated application. Its cost certainly makes it desirable. The more hands that touch Photoshop, "legally" or not, the more skilled users are created, and the more consumer loyalty is generated. So in this instance, software piracy can actually help a software product.

      Hopefully, that cleared up my message.

    183. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      What about for the benefit of (for example) software houses that spend thousands (millions?) of dollars paying designers, programmers, marketers, managers etc etc to build software which is then released as 1's and 0's to the whole world?

      I think that it is in society's best interest to offer them some limited amount of protection. But 95 years is outrageous. Would it really hurt MS to have Windows 3.11 come out of copyright now, or 5 years from now?

      And more importantly from our perspective, would it affect their plans to release new versions of Windows? Because that's what we really want, right? Creation of new stuff.

      The same thing is analogous to software/music/movies. If you can make unlimited copies for free, then the product itself becomes worthless.

      That's exactly right. Without the government to back up paper money, it is in fact completely worthless. Similarly, IP is completely worthless without the backing of that same government. Personally, I think that money is beneficial to society, so it is a worthwhile activity to defend it. I also happen to feel the same way about copyright, but I think that the terms need to be much, much shorter.

      Draw two squares on the paper,

      Of course, if I've only got money for one game and I download one and buy one - they still have all of my money. Not a defense of copyright infringement, but I'm pointing out how it isn't as black and white as you would like it to be. Each copy of a game does NOT equal a lost sale.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    184. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by emjay88 · · Score: 1

      they still have all of my money

      It's not about having 100%, 50%, 75% or 10% of your money, it's about having the $60 or whatever the game costs. If you only have enough money for one game, you only get one game. Why isn't it as black and white as that?

      Each copy of a game does NOT equal a lost sale.

      You're back at the "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" argument. If you don't think it's worth buying...

      --
      1178161 is prime...
    185. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Why isn't it as black and white as that?

      Because if someone only has $60, then it doesn't really matter how many games they pirate once the $60 is gone. There is only $60 total available. If a kid plays 1 game or 100 games, no more money is available. From an economic perspective, his piracy has absolutely no effect.

      Now, in the real world, a game pirate probably NEVER buys the games - so they don't even get his $60... and THAT is a problem for game publishers. I wasn't justifying the infringement, simply pointing out that 1 game copied = 1 sale lost is a fallacy.

      You're back at the "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" argument. If you don't think it's worth buying...

      I've infringed the copyright on every game that I've ever purchased. First, I immediately find and download the crack that lets me play it without a stupid CD in the drive. Second, I have a laptop and a desktop, and I will apologetically put a copy on each machine. At no point was anyone deprived of anything, because at no point will I EVER buy two copies of the same game. So I'm a dirty copyright infringer - am I going to copyright hell? If not, why not?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    186. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by lilomar · · Score: 1

      And if I don't care what people do with my creations?

      --
      The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
    187. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      It's stealing: you're depriving the intellectual property owner of one of their property rights, i.e. exclusivity. The same way I may choose who gets to stay in my realty (i.e. I control the exclusivity of the property), an intellectual property owner has the right to control who gets access to the intellectual property.

      Nope. See, the reason you have exclusive rights to the use of your real property is because it's a limited resource. If I bring 100 of my friends into your living room, that's going to make it hard for you to set up that new entertainment center. My use can interfere with yours, and so to resolve those conflicts, someone has to decide who may or may not use it at any given time. That person is called the "owner". The same goes for cars, radio spectrum, and so on: we grant ownership in order to prevent conflicts when different people have different ideas about how something should be used.

      Information, however, is not subject to the same limitations. I can play a copy of a game at home while you play another copy at your house, or hang the CD on your wall, or compress it and email it to your pal in Russia, or whatever. My use of the information on that disc cannot possibly interfere with your use of it, and vice versa, so there's no need for either of us to have exclusive rights to it. And so, even if the law does attempt to grant one of us exclusive rights over that information, those rights are illegitimate, and the other one of us shouldn't be too worried about infringing them.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    188. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Some cases of piracy are reasonably close to theft: unauthorized commercial duplication for example. In this case, the copyright holders aren't deprived of the material, they are deprived of the revenue, which the infringer enjoys.

      Well, by that logic, if I have $50 in my pocket and I decide to buy a few books with it instead of a game -- maybe because of the bookstore's actions, like if I saw they were having a sale -- doesn't that mean the bookstore has "stolen" that revenue from the game store? After all, the game store wanted my money, but the bookstore got it instead, just like how in your example, the copyright holder wanted those customers' money but the infringer got it instead.

      It doesn't hold up. In fact, it's the same logic people use to argue that noncommercial copying is stealing (because the copyright holder wanted your money but didn't get it), and it doesn't hold up there either.

      It's only stealing when someone takes away something that you already had. Theft makes the victim poorer, which is why it's considered a bad thing. But if you have exactly as much money and property after the alleged theft as you did before, it wasn't theft at all. Money that belongs to someone else doesn't count, no matter how much you might wish for it to become yours.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    189. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Because if someone only has $60, then it doesn't really matter how many games they pirate once the $60 is gone. There is only $60 total available. If a kid plays 1 game or 100 games, no more money is available. From an economic perspective, his piracy has absolutely no effect.

      In fact, his piracy makes the society a richer place by creating wealth (entertainment) from nothing (copying). Of course, the economic field is at a total loss on how to measure real wealth so you are completly right that it has no effect from an economic perspective.

      Now, in the real world, a game pirate probably NEVER buys the games - so they don't even get his $60..

      This statement goes against all research that indicates that pirates are more likely to buy IP than non pirates. Of course, some of the reason for this is that someone is more likely to pirate if they are interested in what is pirated in the first place. Cause and effect makes it difficult to determine which way it goes.

      THAT is a problem for game publishers

      Yup. The real question that has to be balanced is the earnings of IP producers vs the profit of society as a whole.

      You hear all this talk about how ip producers want to control their "moral right to own their own work", but in reality that simply isn't true as you can see by how IP rights are sold back and forth. No, it is all about money and economy and in that case you have to look at the societal use of copyright.

      While few will argue aganst a limited commercial monopoly on IP (although the length can be debated), the question is, Is it worth the societal cost of restricting the private piracy that generates huge amounts of wealth so that IP producers can earn more money.?

      I would say no, while other would say yes. I am fine debating with those saying yes as long as they don't try to play the moral superiority (a.k.a.) stealing card. Calling it stealing if I share some information on my hardrive is ridicioulus. And, no you don't own what is on my harddrive or in my head. You can't own information. As best you can get a state granted monopoly on redistributing it.

      I am just waiting for someone to invent star trek replicators. Can you imagine the kind of panic manufacturing owners would get if it was easy to replicate physical goods.

    190. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      LOL I want to have my cake and eat it too please... copyright is what gives the GPL it's teeth. You people CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

      Yup. This is an issue that has been discussed somewhat extensivly on the swedish pirate party forum.

      And the current party line is that GPL has to deal with it just like everyone else. The party program aims for a five year commercial monopoly, meaning that other companies couldn't use it for those five years, but beyond that the code would be...well...free with a small f.

    191. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Any "sale" of IP is the sale of a right to use the IP

      Wrong, completly incorrect.

      A sale of is IP is a sale just like any other item which give me full rights to do anything I want it. The courts have ruled on that again and again when it comes to the rights of reselling items.

      The only thing I am not legally allowed to do is redistribute a copy of the item in question, because every single piece of IP produced automatically gets assigned a copyright that prevents anyone but the owner of the copyright to do just that. That copyright can in turn be sold and traded, transfering the rights of copying the item for redistribution.

      However, every specific copy is consider its own and can be resold.

      the only party who is able to sell rights to use the IP)

      Wrong, you can not sell rights to use IP. You can only sell the IP itself while maintaining the exclusive right to copy and sell more of it.

      Actually, it is also possible to use contracts (leases) to rent software to others, which would be more similar to what you are talking about, but that falls under completly different laws than ordinary store bought IP.

    192. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      Well, by that logic, if I have $50 in my pocket and I decide to buy a few books with it instead of a game -- maybe because of the bookstore's actions, like if I saw they were having a sale -- doesn't that mean the bookstore has "stolen" that revenue from the game store?

      No, because you don't have the game. If you took the game and then spent the money at the bookstore, that would be stealing.

      If you're not interested in buying what someone has for sale, that's fine. But if you acquire something without paying for it, when you have no other claim to its possession, you've stolen it. Attempting muddied and painful misuse of semantics to say anything different is just sad.

      It's only stealing when someone takes away something that you already had.

      No, it's stealing when you get something you didn't previously have, without authorization. Changing the agency of the verb doesn't help your argument, and it shows how little this community actually understands the mechanics of language and law.

      Theft makes the victim poorer

      Stealing != theft.

    193. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      And at the same time we can do away with positive connotations of words like bullshit, marketing and propaganda and newspeak and instead call it

      Well, I like the term "intellectual rape". Actually, just drop the term intellectual as it is superfluous. And most of all it makes them mad when you ask them to stop with the raping.

      So are you done raping the language today?

    194. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by AcidPenguin9873 · · Score: 1

      A sale of is IP is a sale just like any other item which give me full rights to do anything I want it.

      Such as...

      The courts have ruled on that again and again when it comes to the rights of reselling items.

      Reselling is not "doing anything I want", it is an application of first-sale doctrine.

      The only thing I am not legally allowed to do is redistribute a copy of the item in question, because every single piece of IP produced automatically gets assigned a copyright that prevents anyone but the owner of the copyright to do just that. That copyright can in turn be sold and traded, transfering the rights of copying the item for redistribution.

      However, every specific copy is consider its own and can be resold.

      Once again, you're specifically addressing resale, which is different than "doing anything I want".

      Wrong, you can not sell rights to use IP. You can only sell the IP itself while maintaining the exclusive right to copy and sell more of it.

      You're being pedantic with words. Maybe that's important in a court, but this is Slashdot, and no one here gets it unless you do it my way. We're saying the exact same thing, except you're using proper terminology and I'm putting it in terms that Slashdotters understand.

      If the definition of "IP" is something that can be easily reproduced and distributed, you haven't "bought" IP if you are restricted from reproducing it. What have you bought? A can't-be-further-copied copy of the IP? That doesn't make much sense to people around here. What you've effectively done purchased the right to use the IP. Effectively. (Not actually, as you so nicely pointed out in your post). In your words, you've purchased a copy of the IP which can't be further copied because of copyright restrictions. In my words, you're not purchasing the IP, you're purchasing the right to use the IP.

      The difference is, when you put it my way, Slashdotters can't use a bunch of fallacious arguments about theft and deprivation. Those same fallacious arguments don't work on your words either (because of copyright restrictions), but no one here buys into copyrights, so it's impossible to have dialogue about how to fix the actual problem.

      The actual problem being how to allow IP creators to be compensated for their work.

    195. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      One quibble: Copyright is a separate issue from plagiarism.

      I'd like to see copyright abolished. I got the impression you wanted to keep and possibly even strengthen copyright. Now it sounds like you want to reform copyright. But actually it sounds like your real worry is plagiarism, not copyright. If so, you're not the first to have misunderstood copyright protections as protections against plagiarism.

      Plagiarism is a whole other problem. I do not want plagiarism to be common or acceptable. Ghost writing is ok, as that's by agreement. Fortunately there is an easy way to deal with plagiarism: trusted digital notaries. Anyone could have these notaries digitally sign a document with the private key of a key pair that is tied to a particular time. Each time period (perhaps the period should be an hour), a new key pair is generated, and the old private key is forgotten. I would recommend people send it hashes to be signed, rather than the documents themselves, then wait a while (at least 1 hour) before disseminating the documents. Assuming the notaries are reliable (it shouldn't be too difficult to assure that) and that authors exercise a little care, there would never be any question who was the real author of a document.

      And yes, I agree about the lack of rigor in the patently self-serving estimates of how much piracy has actually occurred, and the actual effects it has had. Always good to keep pointing it out though, so it isn't conveniently overlooked.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    196. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      Plans that have download limits are very common outside of the USA. Even if you don't have a download limit, you do have a limited pipe, and downloading data through it reduces the amount of bandwidth they have available for themselves. Also, downloading or uploading data may increase the latency on the link, and if they're primarily using it for gaming (as an example) that might matter to them. Also, if you run P2P through their connection their ISP may deliberately degrade their service as a result. So, there are many ways in which using an open access point for internet access can deprive the owner of something valuable.

      That the access point isn't secured doesn't indicate that they are granting permission to others to use it: they may simply not know that it's possible for others to use it. I agree that this presents a problem, because it is not unreasonable to think someone would be making their AP available as a public service, and there isn't any established means of identifying if an open AP is open because the owner wants people to use it, or because they simply didn't know you have to secure it. Personally, I think the law should explicitly declare that an unsecured access point is an invitation to others to use it, and any vendor shipping wireless products should make them "secure by default", even if the security is only a well-known default password. Even better, the wireless specs should be updated so beacon broadcasts include a flag saying "yes, this is a public access point, you're welcome to use it" which is disabled by default. That way, if you encounter an AP broadcasting that flag, you can legally use it under the assumption that it is in fact intended for public access.

    197. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      Of course they're not the same: only piracy costs media corporations money. (Terrorism could I suppose, but that's probably covered by insurance.)

    198. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by cliffski · · Score: 1

      *sigh*
      its amazing how people suddenly develop the religious need to defend bit-torrent sites offering nothing but copyrighted material, and people even march in the streets in protest at the thought of them being shut down.
      None of you can want the stuff that much, because you aren't potential customers, so what's the big fucking deal?

      People pirate stuff because they are cheapskates who want something for nothing and think they wont get caught. anything more than this is just rationalizing and window-dressing.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    199. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by cliffski · · Score: 1

      maybe you should care that people who develop stuff full time, and do a professional job actually have bills to pay, and may not be free as you are to give away their lifes work for nothing?

      Or do you equate a song you write in a garage at the weekend with a movie like Iron Man?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    200. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Such as...

      Cutting it in pieces, rearranging it, using it privatly for any other purpose including making private copies. Oh, and if it is something visual I can also print it out and piss on it. Basically anything I can do with an ordinary item except for the exception of redistributing a copy which is restricted under copyright law.

      I can even make copies for personal use as long as I don't redistribute them, although even that isn't 100% true as lending a recorded videotape to a friend may very well be seen as fair use. (although that whole part of the copyright law is way too diffuse in general)

      it is an application of first-sale doctrine.

      And the first sale doctrine is about owning things you buy. I choose to use that as an example exactly because it is the main ruling that shows how owns the copy. (and no, it isn't the creator).

      this is Slashdot, and no one here gets it unless you do it my way. We're saying the exact same thing, except you're using proper terminology and I'm putting it in terms that Slashdotters understand.

      No, you are using improper terminology to try and equalize copyright infringment with theft.

      What have you bought? A can't-be-further-copied copy of the IP?

      Yes. And if you break the copyright law to copy that can't-be-further-copied copy that you own, then you are guilty of copyright infringement, not theft.

      What you've effectively done purchased the right to use the IP

      And when I buy a table I have effectivly purchased the rights to use the table. That doesn't really say much.

      but no one here buys into copyrights, so it's impossible to have dialogue about how to fix the actual problem.

      Actually, it is fully possible to have a dialogue. However, as soon as you begin calling copyright infringement, theft, you will get labeled and have all responses focusing on just that.

      Also, I think most people here wants to retain copyright although in far more limited forms than exists today.

      The actual problem being how to allow IP creators to be compensated for their work.

      Yup, and that is a question that definitly needs discussing. It is a damn big problem due to how IP costs to produce but have a very very low marginal costs because of the ease of copying.

      In general it is very easy to convince most people about the usefulness of commercial copyright, although some economic libertarians will argue that copyright goes against the idea of the free market and that if people want IP produced they will pay for it.

      The length of copyright is another matter. The current lengths are seen as obscene by many. A popular suggestions in the US is 14 years due to it being the original length. Personally I think that is a little long in todays fast moving climate, especially since businesses have to plan on getting their many back in a far shorter time than that.

      On the socialist side you will of course hear about taxing and distributing money to people who produce IP. The problem with this is of course how you determine how much money to give to each person. Also there is the question of what kind of tax. A general one, or one specific to internet or storage media?

      This whole thing won't grow any smaller either. As people in poorer countries gain internet access, the amount of piracy going on will increase. If something can be copied cheaply it will be.

    201. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by rpillala · · Score: 1

      the term would apply if anything were actually stolen

      --
      When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
    202. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      No, because you don't have the game.

      If you read the post I was replying to, you'll see that obtaining a copy of the game wasn't one of his requirements: he said the act was "stealing" because the copyright holder was deprived of revenue. HTH.

      it shows how little this community actually understands the mechanics of language [...]

      Wait for it ...

      Stealing != theft.

      ...bam! Now that's comedy.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    203. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by lilomar · · Score: 1

      Iron Man? Bought Theatre tickets for it and will probably get it on DVD. Either way, I'm not pirating it. Don't assume things about me that you don't know.

      Standard User was trying to make the point that you either created things, and thus should respect others' 'right' to say what you do with their work because you wish to be treated in kind, or else you don't create anything and thus have no room to talk. I was merely showing that there was a third option.

      The discussion was about social contracts, not money, so your point about professionals needing the money was misplaced. For that to even be a valid argument you would need to prove that piracy actually caused more financial harm than good to the creator.

      --
      The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
    204. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "It's not stealing as copying does not deprive the original owner of anything. Copyright is an artificial monopoly provided by the government as an incentive to create and release creative works."

      It's worse than stealing, because one person could potentially ruin an entire companies business by making it easy for everyone to get their game, software, or movie for free (which means people aren't buying..and the company will eventually lose money). I think it's actually closer to counterfeiting.

      I don't think you want to be in a world without copyrights. The GNU would not exist and companies could legally take code, close it up, and not have to give anything back. We might actually see less open source. You could freely share software, but it might still be proprietary.

      I love these discussions because many of the same people that say it isn't stealing will say that people are "ripping off" code when the GNU license is violated (and the same arguments can be used in that situation..the original owner isn't deprived and therefore it isn't stealing).

    205. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      My opinion is that copyright should be shifted to be commercial-only. It's the pragmatic thing to do. It is much easier for several reasons:
      - People don't obey copyright in its current form, but commercial copyrights ARE widely accepted and obeyed.
      - It would clear up the courts of these thousands of non-commercial claims and end embarrassing antics by organizations like the RIAA.
      - It's not really fair to expect average people to understand ever facet of something as complicated as copyright. Even on Slashdot, people (including myself) constantly get it wrong.
      The only rule that an average person should need to follow is "don't use something created by someone else to make money". Simple, and I think effective.

      I don't think that it would change IP producers revenue streams much. The only "legal" P2P services would be open-source and non-commercial. If you make money on the copyrights of others, that would still be illegal (Napster, AudioGalaxy, etc). As such, I don't think that filesharing would be any more rampant than it is today, so people would still need to buy their media from the usual outlets. Software can keep doing what they do today - require registration, serial numbers, etc. The big boys like MS would still have all of their corporate licenses, and PC manufacturers would still have to pay up.

      I just think it would make the laws come into line with society - trying to go the other way is trouble.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    206. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bravecanadian · · Score: 1

      Picking and choosing when you technically accept the agreement is a joke of an argument. I can just as easily say that I downloaded the source and didn't accept your agreement.

    207. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bravecanadian · · Score: 1

      I just wanted to point out AGAIN

      Copyright infringement exists because no deal was made. GPL theft exists because an agreement was made and subsequently broken. Neither is right, but they are different.

      You can NOT have one without the other. The GPL relies on copyright for it's teeth. Sorry.

    208. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      I am continually amazed at the poor reading comprehension skills of most Slashdot readers. Being geeks, and used to skimming quickly through written material, said readers come to something they don't agree with, and their comprehension shuts off as they formulate a reply in their heads.

      They think they are still reading, but experience demonstrates otherwise. They are thinking about the lovely rant they are formulating, which unbeknown to them, doesn't even address the issues raised in the post they are responding to. It makes me sad, and frustrated.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    209. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      It can be hard to face the sex directly. We're all friends, and like to hang out, but it's not a group sex scene and at the end of a night of hanging out, it can get momentarily awkward.

      Another difficulty is what I like to call 'new relationship energy.' You've just met, you're totally infatuated with this new person, and all you want to do is hang out with them. It's a different kind of feeling than the safe, secure, deep trust you find with a partner of many years.

      Your partner seems to care more about the other person. It's really just infatuation, but infatuation can be pretty intense in the initial phases. And their infatuation with someone else is almost never going to correspond with yours, so you get to feel jealous and envious.

      But you don't have to worry about lies and cheating. And you get to share in the good times. And you have them there to help pick up the pieces if your outside relationship goes south. To me that's worth it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    210. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      What's that got to do with it? I'm explaining why it's fair to call accepting GPL source on the agreement that you release modifications and then not doing it stealing, while it's not ok to describe any and all copyright infringement as stealing. I know that the GPL's teeth come from copyright, and that a violation of it would have to be prosecuted as a copyright infringement. That would be the formal legal position.

      I'm not constructing a formal legal position, if I were; this discussion would not be happening - neither example constitutes theft, legally speaking, and I challenge you to produce a single example of a sucessful prosecution, for theft, of someone copying works without permission.

      I'm explaining why, in the ordinary sense of the word 'steal', hiding GPL code away that you've agreed to release is 'stealing', and different from copying without permission, which isn't. (And if you get it without making such an agreement, it's copying without permission, and not stealing)

      The formal legal position isn't up for discussion, it's a mostly settled question. Neither would constitute stealing.
      This is a philosophical question of whether one is more wrong than the other, and so more worthy of being described as 'stealing'.

      I happen to think that aceepting software for free on the condition that you release the source of modifications and then don't do it is worse than being offered software in exchange for money and getting it elsewhere without paying. That's my opinion, and if your differs, I don't think either of us will be able to argue the other into changing.

      --
      FGD 135
    211. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by menace3society · · Score: 1

      But then what do we call the pirates today?

      "Maritime Terrorists"

      Is this a joke, or not? You decide.

    212. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "I am continually amazed at the poor reading comprehension skills of most Slashdot readers. Being geeks, and used to skimming quickly through written material, said readers come to something they don't agree with, and their comprehension shuts off as they formulate a reply in their heads."

      Just because I don't agree with your stance on copyright does not mean I missed your point or "skimmed quickly".

      This is what you need to learn.

    213. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Very good post

      I just think it would make the laws come into line with society - trying to go the other way is trouble.

      This is probably the most important thing. Doing otherwise just decreases the faith the population have in the justice system. And that is a very bad thing.

      Beyond what you said, I personally believe in a far shorter copyright terms. While I will usually argue for a low 5-10 limit that aims at the ordinary investment return analysis, I am however much more compromising on this issue. There is a second limit around 20-50 years. After that, any IP that is still in use should really be considered a classic and incoorporated into the public domain. It is just sad the way it is now when an old classic traditional birthday song can't be sung because it still is copyrighted. Also, it makes it easier to save those works of art that aren't in use any longer. Finally, it could provide a boosting to the low budget adapation industry, meaning more works of art.

    214. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by brkello · · Score: 1

      And software has physical representation on a cd and in a box. Also, when it is sold, it causes that bank balance to be higher. Thus pirating deprives the bank account of the money (which you claim is physical) that should be there. This argument is beyond stupid. Stop trying to justify taking things without paying for it.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    215. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by brkello · · Score: 1

      It is depriving them of money that they should have for the work they have done.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    216. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Sethumme · · Score: 1

      Of course, most pirated software does keep the attribution. Everyone who got an illegal copy of Photoshop or Warcraft 3 knows EXACTLY who the true creator is. In fact, people like the product precisely because they know who the creator is - they just don't want to pay for it. Same thing with counterfeit knockoffs for brand-name clothing/accessories.

      Also, while the existential value of IP is its characteristic of being an intangible idea that can be infinitely duplicated, the economic value is in how many copies the IP-holder can sell. The ability to create new works is only economically valuable insofar as it lets you offer more copies for sale. If customers didn't actually need a new copy to enjoy the product (for example, because one only needs to use it temporarily to appreciate the benefits), then independent trading would satisfy the demand for the product while never sharing a cent with the creator. It is the copy, not the ability to copy, that holds the economic value.

    217. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by spun · · Score: 1

      Why should they have money for work they do? I do a lot of things that I don't get paid for. They should get paid when someone wants to pay them for something.

      They should NOT get paid for work that I do. If they make their creation public, and I can perceive it, those are my sense impressions, not theirs. I did not agree to let them limit what I can perceive. And if I then copy what they did, that is MY work, not theirs. They did the initial work, but so what? They based their work on sense impressions they got of work that others before them did.

      There IS a reason why I shouldn't copy things others do, but you don't even understand what it is.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    218. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      No. Copyright extremists keep on making this basic mistake in economics. We keep correcting you, and you keep on deliberately ignoring it. Almost the first thing you learn in economics is the supply and demand curves. As price goes down, demand goes up. Pirating is very inexpensive. Those who find it worthwhile to pirate some software often find that if piracy is not an option, it is more worthwhile to do without rather pay full price, or any price, for that software. Not all pirating "deprives a bank account of money". Just how much piracy hurts is very hard to say. The word of mouth can actually be beneficial to sales.

      I am not justifying taking things without paying. Firstly, as we have repeatedly explained, it is copying, not taking. Once again, copying is not always copyright infringement, and copyright infringement is never theft. How many times are we going to have to go over this point? Secondly, I am not doing any justifying. And thirdly, I didn't say anything about not paying. I think scientists and artists should be encouraged, and compensation is perhaps the best encouragement. I'm saying copyright is a poor means to this desirable end. We need something better.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    219. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by bravecanadian · · Score: 1

      I'm explaining why, in the ordinary sense of the word 'steal', hiding GPL code away that you've agreed to release is 'stealing', and different from copying without permission, which isn't. (And if you get it without making such an agreement, it's copying without permission, and not stealing)

      Nope.. I don't agree with it but here it is in your own words and mirroring the popular slashdotspeak: I didn't deprive you of anything you didn't already have so it isn't "stealing".

      Seriously though, you can't honestly be arguing that one case is more like stealing than the other. At the end of the day in both cases you are basically taking the efforts (in return for nothing) of the people who created the original item whatever that may be.

      In both cases it takes these people time/money/inspiration to make this stuff and just because they have a difference in philosophy on how to be compensated doesn't magically make one form of compensation more right than another.

    220. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      ...bam! Now that's comedy.

      Only to a moron. Theft and stealing are not interchangeable. They never have been, and they never will be. If any of you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd know that much.

      Stealing is not itself a crime. It's not a term of art. It's a broad, lay term that has for centuries referred to a multitude of acts, theft being only one of them.

      he said the act was "stealing" because the copyright holder was deprived of revenue. HTH.

      You can't establish deprivation of revenue unless there's possession of something for which revenue is due. If you don't have the book, you've not satisfied the criterion.

      9/10 says you're misconstruing intentionally and you do, in fact, know better.

    221. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Theft and stealing are not interchangeable.

      If you want to nitpick the distinctions between "stealing" and "theft", why don't you read the comment I was responding to and ask yourself which term was used there (particularly in the third paragraph, which is the one I quoted)?

      If you have a problem with folks on Slashdot using common dictionary definitions of these words, rather than precise legal definitions, then either suck it up or go somewhere else. This isn't a courtroom or a law school; we're discussing broad ethics and morals, not intricate legalities. The rest of us have no problem understanding what "stealing" and "theft" mean in this particular context.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    222. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      by your logic, printing counterfeit money is not wrong because you didn't steal anything.

    223. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      If you have a problem with folks on Slashdot using common dictionary definitions of these words

      But you're not! The fundamental definition of stealing is taking something without permission. It's not "permanent deprivation of a material, finite good, without any consideration as to other possible meanings" as it's being used.

      This isn't a courtroom or a law school; we're discussing broad ethics and morals, not intricate legalities.

      Oh, really? Then why all the stilted, convoluted, and just plain inaccurate legal analogies? You're not talking about broad ethics or morals at all--you're disingenuously trying to frame the discussion to put it out of context. You say "it's not stealing"--and then use a precise, legal definition of theft to make your point. They are not interchangeable, and your citing to theft simply does not make your point.

      The rest of us have no problem understanding what "stealing" and "theft" mean in this particular context.

      Apparently you do, because you can't seem to use the terms correctly. "In this particular context", theft isn't involved or relevant. That doesn't take stealing off the table.

      The basic truth is that you're okay with the term "he stole my GPL code" but not "she stole my album", which is hypocrisy at its finest. Attempts to rationalize it mistake either (1) that stealing is not theft, and the finite or tangible nature of the item is not essential to the act (unauthorized acquisition) or (2) that the dispossession is not of the bits of the copy, but the violation of an exclusive right, or some combination of the two.

      When people interfere with dominion and exclusivity in land by asserting (unlawfully) title, it's adverse possession, and it's stealing. When someone goes from a state of not having something to having it, by their own deeds and without authorization, they've stolen it, regardless of whether the owner even knows or cares that it's gone.

      The moral and philosophical discussion doesn't change the simple fact that it was stolen.

    224. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      "In this particular context", theft isn't involved or relevant.

      That shows you have no idea what the context was, because apparently you didn't bother to read the comment I was responding to, or even the part of it that I originally quoted. If you had, you would've seen that it used the word "theft".

      I even gave you a link, but you couldn't manage to put forth the meager effort necessary to click on it. Maybe you're really that lazy, but I suspect you're just willfully ignorant.

      The basic truth is that you're okay with the term "he stole my GPL code" but not "she stole my album", which is hypocrisy at its finest.

      No, I wouldn't describe either of those as stealing. The only hypocrisy there is that you're arguing against a position you made up yourself. If you want to be a successful troll, try picking a less obvious strawman next time.

      When someone goes from a state of not having something to having it, by their own deeds and without authorization, they've stolen it, regardless of whether the owner even knows or cares that it's gone.

      The question isn't whether the owner knows or cares that it's gone, but whether it really is gone at all. The fact is, it isn't gone: the owner still has it. Only a moron would complain that his stuff had been "stolen" when it was still right there in his hands.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    225. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      Now that I read over what I wrote, I do see that I mistakenly linked plagiarism as a goal of copyright protection, which it was not. But you do bring up a valid point with trusted digital notaries.

      I don't see any reason to strength copyright protection as it is law today. I think it's already strong enough. But I am against abolishing copyrights altogether. My preference is for Creative Common licenses; however, I don't see deep pocket owners of copyrights stepping away from the current copyright law.

    226. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      That shows you have no idea what the context was, because apparently you didn't bother to read the comment I was responding to, or even the part of it that I originally quoted. If you had, you would've seen that it used the word "theft".

      I saw that. What does it matter? You both use the term incorrectly. The context is that you collectively can't get anywhere in the argument because neither of you has a clue what you're talking about.

      The question isn't whether the owner knows or cares that it's gone, but whether it really is gone at all.

      No. The verb's agency is the perpetrator, not the victim. It is the acquisition that is critical, not the result on the victim. Even if the owner cannot be located, you've still stolen it. 'Stole' and 'stolen from' are not parallel construction--stealing is an act, not a consequence. Do you have something you're not authorized to have? Yes? It's stolen.

      No, I wouldn't describe either of those as stealing. The only hypocrisy there is that you're arguing against a position you made up yourself.

      First, you're quoting a collective use of "you" (unless "the rest of us" refers to your alter egos)--and you can't possibly be so deluded as to believe that's not the sentiment on Slashdot.

      So you're going to pretend you've never used the word "steal" to describe the taking of an idea, an opportunity, or the taking of a password?

      You're saying that you post in GPL violation threads on Slashdot to remind editors and posters that GPL violation isn't stealing, it's just copying and the developers didn't actually lose anything? You're opposed to the FSF and other open source organizations being able to enforce in court noncompliance with the requirements of open source licenses?

      Rrrrright.

      Crying "troll" doesn't distract from that hypocrisy.

      The fact is, it isn't gone: the owner still has it.

      No, this is an impossibility. A copy cannot be in the possession of two parties simultaneously. Moreover, the owner does not still have the integrity of his property--he has been divested of his ownership by the unlawful acts of a third party. This is plainly stealing.

      In order to take the copy, you have to misappropriate two rights not belonging to you: production and distribution. The owner has been permanently deprived of his exclusive rights of reproduction, distribution, and contract with regard to that copy.

    227. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      Also, while the existential value of IP is its characteristic of being an intangible idea that can be infinitely duplicated, the economic value is in how many copies the IP-holder can sell. The ability to create new works is only economically valuable insofar as it lets you offer more copies for sale. If customers didn't actually need a new copy to enjoy the product (for example, because one only needs to use it temporarily to appreciate the benefits), then independent trading would satisfy the demand for the product while never sharing a cent with the creator. It is the copy, not the ability to copy, that holds the economic value.

      I guess I disagree here. Firstly, you say the economic value is in "how many copies the IP holder can sell." This is actually not accurate. For the producer, the revenue potential from selling copies is related to maximizing the profit function, which is price x volume, not simply volume. You can do some fairly trivial analyses to show that even at zero price, the demand for most products is not the entire population of the planet. At a price equivalent of "number of man years to develop and produce one copy" for one copy, there is also very little demand. The revenue maximization is somewhere in the middle. For society in general, economic value is related more toward how easily things are distributed so they can be used more rapidly (note this can be positive value such as from a new efficient tool or negative such as a popular form of entertainment which creates massive environmental hazards)

      Secondly, the copy really doesn't have economic value. The use of the copy holds value to the person using it, and that value is reflected by the price they are willing to pay. People using copies without paying for them means they really don't value that copy very much - they value it less than the risk of whatever current legal ramifications apply to their jurisdiction.

      Third: demand for a single non-scarce product doesn't drive an economy. Economies do not value non-scarce resources such as copies of information. Note that the transition from scarce to non-scarce was indeed a result of technology, but that doesn't change the fact that you cannot sustainably ask people to exchange things of value for non-scarce resources. Attempting to limit supply through artificial social constructs is also unsustainable (consider prohibition for one example). The thing of value in information these days is the ability to create new information and the ability to interpret that information, not in shuffling that information around. The reason there is no value in shuffling information around is because it takes no special ability or infrastructure to shuffle that information around - there is no value gained in having party A move the information versus party B. (Substitute "distribute" for "move" and "copyrighted works" with "information" for the specific example.)

      The value people have today from "information" items is that those items exist. To ensure they exist, the creators of the work will be compensated. If those creators are not compensated, those items will likely not exist in the same number they do now. Criminalizing distribution when distribution has no value is similar to protectionism and it will have the same detrimental effects in the long run - look at the steel industry for an example there.

      In closing, I would agree that there is not yet a standard, popular method for compensating information creators that is not tied to distributing their works. One model that has been tried is the "donation" method some of the popular artists have been using, and another is the dreaded subscription model (works for some things like serial works, not so much for things like software). I believe we will see a movement toward some hybrid of systems, where the information creators make available their works to everyone so long as they get enough revenue to keep what their doing, rather than complain that everyone that experiences their works does not compensate them.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    228. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      No. The verb's agency is the perpetrator, not the victim. It is the acquisition that is critical, not the result on the victim.

      That isn't a widespread belief. You're welcome to it, but don't expect to find much agreement here (or elsewhere).

      I think you'll find that most people aren't concerned about supposed instances of "stealing" where the "stolen" item isn't taken away from its owner, because the reason they're opposed to stealing in the first place is the effect it has on its victim (not the unearned acquisition/enjoyment, which is the sort of thing only Puritans worry about). Without that result, the word is shooting blanks.

      It's possible that with enough semantic wrangling, you might manage to convince someone that copyright infringement could, in some sense of the word, be considered a form of stealing. But that won't get you anywhere: it'll only draw a distinction in their mind between "bad" stealing that takes property away from someone, and "good" stealing that doesn't. Stripping the word "steal" of its emotional connotation doesn't seem like something you'd want to do if you're a fan of property rights.

      So you're going to pretend you've never used the word "steal" to describe the taking of an idea, an opportunity, or the taking of a password?

      I don't need to pretend. I haven't used the word that way except as an exaggeration, the same way I might say "I'm starving" when I'm merely hungry. If someone pointed out that an opportunity, a password, a base, or a kiss hadn't really been stolen -- particularly in a conversation about morals or laws or property, where someone might reasonably think I'd been referring to theft -- I'd happily concede that it hadn't.

      You're saying that you post in GPL violation threads on Slashdot to remind editors and posters that GPL violation isn't stealing, it's just copying and the developers didn't actually lose anything? You're opposed to the FSF and other open source organizations being able to enforce in court noncompliance with the requirements of open source licenses? Rrrrright.

      I don't really bother with GPL violation threads, but yes, that's rrrrright: I'm opposed to copyright whether it's being wielded by the FSF or by the RIAA, for profit or for open source.

      (However, I'm not in favor of unilateral disarmament. As long as some people are able to use copyright to prevent sharing, it's only fair that others should be able to use it to promote sharing.)

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    229. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by vertinox · · Score: 1

      I prefer the term "stealing games" myself.

      I don't, but that's because I prefer our legal system to differentiate between theft and copyright infringement as well as manslaughter and murder as the laws were originally intended.

      I don't pirate games or kill people, but it bothers me when people are handed sentences down that don't fit the crime.

      Not to get into another semantics debate, but the US legal system has clearly defined theft as "deprivation of the use of property" and as none one deprives anyone of anything when they pirate they clearly aren't stealing but performing something else illegal called "copyright infringement".

      Which by the way has a higher penalty in some cases to which stealing the game from the store would have earned them less of a punishment.

      I'm just saying...

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    230. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stealing or theft is the removal of property from the rightful owner. The only way you can "steal" a game is by shoplifting it from a store.
      If you copy or download it, it is copyright infringement. The original copy is still in the hands of the rightful owner so nothing has been stolen.
      In legal terms copyright infringement is a much more serious act than theft. However the term theft is used by copyright owners to incite the negative emotions we have against theft and correlate them with the act of copyright infringement.

    231. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      by your logic, printing counterfeit money is not wrong because you didn't steal anything.

      Printing counterfeit money is illegal, because the law says so.

      Printing counterfeit money is not stealing. It's still illegal.

      Are you being stupid on purpose, or are these things really that hard for you to comprehend?

    232. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      That isn't a widespread belief. You're welcome to it, but don't expect to find much agreement here (or elsewhere).

      It's not a belief. It's linguistic constructionism. Anything else is a combination of ignorance or intentional misrepresentation.

      I think you'll find that most people aren't concerned about supposed instances of "stealing" where the "stolen" item isn't taken away from its owner,

      What people are "concerned" about is irrelevant. It is what it is.

      It's possible that with enough semantic wrangling,

      It's semantic wrangling that turns the word on its head--something I've observed you doing in post after post. It's flatly wrong. Stealing is an act committed by a person, not a consequence felt by that person. Conflation of the two is a popular method for the construction of a strawman.

      Stripping the word "steal" of its emotional connotation

      Emotional connotation is irrelevant. I don't care how people feel about stealing. It's clear by the acrobatics performed by people in your position that they're aware it's stealing and that they shouldn't do it, because of the great lengths they go to in order to rationalize it and avoid association with reality.

      It's fundamentally about greed, plain and simple. If people really stood on principle, they'd freely admit to stealing. If you're starving and you take a loaf of bread, you don't say, "I didn't steal it!" You say, yes, I did, but here's why--and you accept the consequences and hope that society agrees with your justification.

      If someone pointed out that an opportunity, a password, a base, or a kiss hadn't really been stolen -- particularly in a conversation about morals or laws or property, where someone might reasonably think I'd been referring to theft -- I'd happily concede that it hadn't.

      That would be an asinine exchange, since all of those instances are perfectly consistent with the word and its definition, and have been used in that manner by society for centuries. You choose this particular instance to complain, not any of the others, because it serves your ideological agenda. It's hypocritical. There's no opposition from you in any of those instances.

      And once again, I'll remind you that your individually-crafted idiosyncrasies do not have a significant bearing on the term or sentiment, particularly in reference to a collective.

    233. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I don't care how people feel about stealing.

      It seems you do, as indicated by your very next sentence:

      It's clear by the acrobatics performed by people in your position that they're aware it's stealing and that they shouldn't do it

      "It's stealing" and therefore "they shouldn't do it". This argument relies on the belief that stealing is a bad thing that people shouldn't do.

      But, of course, as soon as you convince someone that an act he considers perfectly acceptable is "stealing" in some sense of the word that doesn't mean theft, you create a category of "stealing" that it's OK to do. Semantic wrangling doesn't change morality: you can refer to the act by a different name if you want, but the name you choose has no effect on the merits of the act itself.

      Similarly, a group of crows is called a "murder", but that doesn't mean anyone will react to a group of crows the same way they react to homicide. You can go around all day, pointing at groups of crows and shouting to bystanders, "Look, it's a murder! Why isn't anyone stopping it?", but no one will join you in your outrage -- because the thing that bothers them about homicide is that it involves killing people, not just that it's called "murder". Harping on the alternate meanings of that word would only serve to remind people that some kinds of "murder" are harmless.

      And if you kept arguing that those bystanders who didn't do anything about the crows were supporting "murder", they'd quickly conclude you were an asshole more interested in semantic games than honest discussion.

      If people really stood on principle, they'd freely admit to stealing.

      Perhaps they'd be willing to do that if "stealing" didn't also mean theft and weren't likely to be confused with it. A baseball player might "steal" bases, but obviously there are situations where he wouldn't "freely admit to stealing" for fear of being misunderstood.

      That would be an asinine exchange, since all of those instances are perfectly consistent with the word and its definition, and have been used in that manner by society for centuries.

      And yet when people are trying to communicate with each other, they tend to avoid such ambiguities. If you use "murder" to mean a group of crows because you don't realize your audience will interpret it as homicide, you're failing to communicate.

      If you do realize it and you continue using that word anyway, instead of choosing a less ambiguous one, and then you go on to insist that your use was correct because the word had been "used in that manner by society for centuries" (regardless of how it was likely to be interpreted in its current context), then you're just trolling.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    234. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      "It's stealing" and therefore "they shouldn't do it". This argument relies on the belief that stealing is a bad thing that people shouldn't do.

      No, it relies on their belief that they shouldn't do it. If they didn't believe it was wrong to steal, they wouldn't make such an effort to make weak and unsupportable arguments that it's not.

      Honestly, do you completely fail at interpretation, or do you just mangle language for fun?

      But, of course, as soon as you convince someone that an act he considers perfectly acceptable is "stealing" in some sense of the word that doesn't mean theft, you create a category of "stealing" that it's OK to do.

      And?

      Many perpetrators of socially unacceptable acts believe what they're doing is perfectly acceptable. You continually inject morality into the discussion while claiming you make a distinction between morality and legality.

      Clearly, you do not, since you can't actually separate the two concepts in your head. If you take something without permission, you've stolen it. Whether or not you think you were justified in doing so does not change that simple fact. Whether or not you view it as "morally" wrong to do so also does not matter, as that is a personal perspective on an unambiguous act. The only failure to communicate arises when you project your morality onto someone else due to an inability to make logical distinctions.

      Semantic wrangling doesn't change morality:

      Coming from someone without any background in formal semantics, you sure love that phrase. "Semantic wrangling" is what you're doing.

      Similarly, a group of crows is called a "murder", but that doesn't mean anyone will react to a group of crows the same way they react to homicide.

      Technically speaking, you're not referring to the same word. They are orthographically identical, but not semantic equivalents.

      And if you kept arguing that those bystanders who didn't do anything about the crows were supporting "murder", they'd quickly conclude you were an asshole more interested in semantic games than honest discussion.

      More likely they'd wonder what kind of idiot contrived the example and yet so completely failed to make a point.

      We're not talking about 'stealing' in some outward context. Homonyms and homographs are not semantic alternates. They're totally separate lexemes. Don't try to swim in the big kid pool.

      If you do realize it and you continue using that word anyway, instead of choosing a less ambiguous one

      There is nothing ambiguous about it. Stealing: unauthorized acquisition. It's the same damn word. You don't go to jail for "stealing", because stealing is not against the law.

    235. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      If they didn't believe it was wrong to steal, they wouldn't make such an effort to make weak and unsupportable arguments that it's not.

      Do you believe it's wrong to steal?

      If so, then why aren't you out there complaining about stolen bases, stolen kisses, and stealing away into the night?

      Could it be because you realize that some actions which can be described by some senses of the word "stealing" are wrong, but others aren't?

      You don't go to jail for "stealing", because stealing is not against the law.

      Similarly, most of us don't condemn each other for "stealing", because not all acts which can be described as "stealing" are objectionable. The objectionable acts are those which can more specifically be described as theft, because the fact that the victim is deprived of his property is precisely what's objectionable about them.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    236. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      Do you believe it's wrong to steal?

      There you go with your morality again. You're obsessed. I don't make categorical moral judgments.

      If so, then why aren't you out there complaining about stolen bases, stolen kisses, and stealing away into the night?

      What's to complain about? You're the one on a moral crusade, skippy. There's a presumption of impropriety implicit in the lack of authorization, which is the entire point of using "steal" to describe those actions (except "steal away", which is a metaphorical extension and not an act of stealing).

      They're using the word properly. Why would I complain about that? You've come undone.

      Could it be because you realize that some actions which can be described by [...] the word "stealing" are wrong, but others aren't?

      That's exactly the point! Stealing is what it is: unauthorized acquisition. You're the one saying that copyright infringement is not stealing, when it plainly is. This discussion has never been whether copyright infringement is morally wrong. Claiming it's not stealing as a way of absolving immorality is imprecise and entirely unsuccessful.

      The objectionable acts are those which can more specifically be described as theft

      No. The objectionable acts are those which can be described as objectionable. Some, but not all, instances of theft can fall into this category, and many other forms of stealing that do not fall under 'theft' also fall into this category. Stealing your wife away is not theft, but I imagine you'd find it objectionable.

      Your continued and unstoppable interweaving of morality is just boring now. Neither theft nor stealing exist as moral binaries.

    237. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Claiming it's not stealing as a way of absolving immorality is imprecise and entirely unsuccessful.

      I agree. If anyone here had claimed that copyright infringement is not immoral simply because it isn't "stealing", that would've been a poor argument (whether or not they were wrong about the meaning of that word). Morality comes from the act's consequences, not from what it's called.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    238. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by jgoemat · · Score: 1

      You are both depriving the producer of revenue AND making use of their product without paying for ownership. It's much like 'stealing' wifi access from your neighbor. The only physical aspect of the theft involves electrons/impulses/etc...

      Actually, "stealing" wifi uses bandwidth, which could be used for something else. It actually temporarily deprives the owner of the use of something, which is more like stealing than copying something that was originally authored by another. Copyright does NOT denote ownership. It denotes authorship. Copying is not taking. Does copying public domain works deprive the author of anything? Do you think we shouldn't have a public domain and that even the bible and the works of Aristotle should be copyrighted?

    239. Re:A favorite term to replace 'piracy'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir hit the nail right on the head. Who is the bad guy again? The tyrants? The ones who don't want to put anything into movies, music and games and yet still reap the rewards of a job well done. Think about the ones most interested in DRM. They are notorious for being the ones that produce the crappiest products. Seems obvious that they don't believe in their products either. In my life i've been a pirate and had friends that were pirates. Oh ya we stole a lot of games. Robbed them out right. But I would like to also point it out we all had closets that were packed full of game boxes from all the games we bought. Most months we each bought up to 6 different games a month. So my thoughts on DRM? eh this smells nothing more than the extreme copy protection that happened in the 80's. Their copy protection on C64 and Atari was so good that it locked out all the innocent legal paying customers. Mean while pirates were stripping out copy protection and distributing the game. Basically the guy who paid for the game was rewarded to the treat of not being able to play the game and the pirates all could play the game free and clear. What this did is it made law abiding citizens that would have normally paid to stop paying as they keep getting ripped off and join the ranks of pirates. I don't pirate any more. But i'm still very much piss on the music industry pushing main labels to pump junk albums. The movie and TV industry and their crapola clones and bullshit knockoffs. And a special solute for the game and commercial software industry at large. Making people pay to beta test your crap. What is this BS? And how come nothing is getting optimized or completely debugged before they decide to add more crap on top of the shake pile of dung. I commend the pirates. I cheer them. We need more of them. People willing to risk it all to be free and not restrained by the corporate/government tyrants. People who spit the bit out of their mouth when the moguls try to reign them. You want entertainment prices to go down? Kill the monopoly. Don't tell me the only way we can have games is if EA gives them to us. If all the big boys died off it would make way for more inspired little guys to pop up. The reason why these industries are suffering is because of their own monopolies, not because there is a lack of square inches on their fat lazy butts. To all the pirates still out there doing your thing. I solute you guys! To the rest of you puds who can't put the pieces together. Tyranny creates pirates. Hands down. End of story. Any arguments i've heard on this is purely fantasy idealism. No different of a fantasy than that the evil empire has with DRM working. It won't. There will be DRM unpackers.

  2. ooh, ooh, I've got one! by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Electronic copyright violation.

    Yarr, I be a clever pirate.

    --
    I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
    1. Re:ooh, ooh, I've got one! by TypoNAM · · Score: 1

      ECV? Sounds like a STD..

      --
      This space is not for rent.
    2. Re:ooh, ooh, I've got one! by NickFortune · · Score: 1

      You know, I'm generally one of those who argue for using the proper term (as you just have). On the whole though, I don't object to the word "piracy" used as a casual shorthand for copyright infringement. It saves time, and on the whole, everyone understands what you're talking about.

      What I do object to though are the tossers who try to reason thus:

      1. Copyright violation is often referred to by a term that strictly only applies to violent armed robbery upon the high seas
      2. Armed robbery with violence is a very bad thing, generally deserving of the harshest punishment
      3. Therefore, all downloaders are scum who should be shunned and locked up for a very long time

      It's not the term itself, so much as the fallacious logic that invariably follows in its wake. I don't mind discussing electronic piracy, so long as people don't try and use the term as the sole justification for a moral stance

      (That's not disagreeing with you in any way - just something I wanted to say, and it seemed to follow on well from your post).

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    3. Re:ooh, ooh, I've got one! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crimson Permanent Assurance

    4. Re:ooh, ooh, I've got one! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about calling it... "borrowing"

      I mean, most people who do pirate (not saying that I'm such a person) usually do so to try games out for a undefined time. Not just game but other software that are horrendously expensive as well. Point is, most pirates end up deleting the game/program in the long run...

      Just my 2 cents.

    5. Re:ooh, ooh, I've got one! by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Gag. Show some creativity!

      Here's my entry: economic pastafarianism.

    6. Re:ooh, ooh, I've got one! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about theft?

    7. Re:ooh, ooh, I've got one! by descil · · Score: 1

      Huh. Weird. I guess you're talking to a bunch of people who know what piracy is already. But you know better than to call it 'piracy' to someone who hasn't heard of it before, right?

      Also just always beware of the subconscious messages such a word produces. :/

  3. Free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Free as in that shitty urine soaked couch sitting on the curb with a "Free" sign on it.

    1. Re:Free? by Kjuib · · Score: 1, Funny

      Free as in: all you have to do is buy it dinner first.

      --
      - Your stupidity got you into this mess, why can't it get you out? -Will Rogers
  4. "piracy" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >> (And if anyone has a favorite replacment term for "piracy," in the context of electronic copyright violation, please suggest it below.)

    "Rape of the creative class"?

    1. Re:"piracy" by flattop100 · · Score: 1

      >> (And if anyone has a favorite replacment term for "piracy," in the context of electronic copyright violation, please suggest it below.) >>"Rape of the creative class"? Funny, I feel like I'm the one on the receiving end, when I buy things from the likes of Sony, EA, BMG, etc.

  5. make good games that run on reasonable hardware by WillAdams · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Instead of mediocre games that require incredibly expensive stuff few people have.

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    1. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 1

      Exactly. In some sense, television has reached the point where much of the bad stuff can be filtered out: we no longer have just a few networks to choose from. Gaming is going to reach that point -- perhaps it already has -- and so we won't have to put up with the bad games put out as fast as possible just to cash in on the latest comic actionmovie. Indie devs -- or smaller indie devs, like Bungie once was -- will put out better-quality games that won't require the huge numbers of buyers in order to recoup the costs of distribution.

      --
      Harold
    2. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ummm... Quantity != Quality. Just look at games for the Wii, sure there are some good ones, Super Smash Bros Brawl, and Super Mario Galaxy to name just two, but if you go into any major store you find that about 75% of Wii games are crappy mini-game collections with virtually no purpose that involve shaking around the Wii remote to try to do something.

      Even if you look back to the NES where we only had a few major developers there was a lot of quality games made, games that pushed the hardware to the limit. In the SNES/Genesis era things stayed the same. But once we got to the PS1/N64 era, we got flooded with a ton of really crappy games. Think about it, once Disney games were good, at least decent, and worth playing, then midway into the '90s something started to go terribly, terribly wrong. Every movie had some lame video game tie-in, games started to all be the same, originality seemed to be confined to first-party developers. We are still there, you only need to take a look at the Wii.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    3. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Lord+of+Hyphens · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...you only need to take a look at the Wii.

      Must... resist... out... of... context... joke... and... talking... like... Shatner...

      --
      "I've spent my whole life figuring out crazy ways to do things. It'll work." -- Montgomery Scott, "Relics"
    4. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by DrFalkyn · · Score: 1

      I just upgraded my 4 year old computer so I could play Mass Effect and The Witcher. The total cost was around $600, not including the case, the monitor and peripherals which I already had. Thats equivalent cost to a PS3, and it probably has s better performance. The problem with PC gaming is you run into many many "ricers" who think you have to spend upwards of $1500 to get a decent system, and they are absolutely full of shit. If you want to spend so you can run Crysis at 2048x1800 and 90 FPS great for you. Your machine will be every bit as dated as mine is in 4 years, and 1280x1024 on my 19" monitor is good enough for me.

    5. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh?

    6. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      Your reply makes no sense. If games are mediocre and just plainly not fun, why are you pirating them? If companies are making games that run on ridiculous hardware that few people have, then why are people pirating them? I don't usually say this, but IMHO pirates in general are full of shit, and have poor excuses for doing the things they do.

      Why do I pirate? Because I'm too cheap to fucking buy it, and because I don't agree with the pricing of the games. There, I said it, and I think I'm the most honest one here with regards to this issue.

    7. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Supposedly a large portion of that blame, at least initially, was due to the publishers underestimating the Wii's impact. Now, the story goes, they're slapping Wii Remote control schemes on each and every title they can, and ramming them out the door.

      Supposedly, next year will be better.

    8. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh how I loved the original duck tales! Thanks for the memory.

    9. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      Your reply makes no sense. If games are mediocre and just plainly not fun, why are you pirating them? If companies are making games that run on ridiculous hardware that few people have, then why are people pirating them?

      ...because people are curious and want to have the good feeling of having saved money by not having bought a mediocre game that only runs on ridiculous hardware.

      Not all games are shit, but most of them are. And just like the music industry, the gaming industry is pretty lunatic (or hypocritical) when they say they honestly believe that all those crappy games (or shitty music) would actually be bought by the people who get them for free if there only was some working DRM.

      Just make an estimate at how many games some kids have on their machine and then take a look at how much money they have to spend a month. Even if they WANTED to buy all that crap, they COULD NEVER afford it.

    10. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by UserChrisCanter4 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Quick question (and not meant to be rude): are you old enough to have been in peak game-playing years during the NES and Genesis/SNES era? You must not be if you are attempting to distinguish those systems from the current ones based on "crap games."

      Lousy movie tie-ins? Those have always existed. Hell, the legendary ET game for Atari (so bad that it is often partially blamed for the collapse of an industry) is a movie tie-in. In the NES and SNES/Genesis era, LJN, Flying Edge, Acclaim (or, as many jokingly called it, ACK! LAME!) and plenty of other publisher/developers were responsible for literally hundreds of shovelware titles between the three systems. We are shielded from those titles by the virtue of 10 to 20 years of passed time that have gradually allowed the gaming community to repress those awful, awful memories. If you're curious, go look at the wiki pages for LJN or Flying Edge; 9/10s of the games on there were garbage and a good number are all movie tie-ins. Better yet, go check out the wiki page with the list of NES games. If you grew up during that era, you'll pick out a few great games, a bunch of stuff you barely remember as being mediocre or never worth your time, and some true stinkers.

      We also have the virtue of being able to group the "hardware-pushing" games all into a particular era, rather than recognizing that months and years passed between what we now just blanket-label as NES-era games. For every developer that figured out how to bootleg up some parallax-like scrolling on the NES, there were a TON of devs pimping out simple side-scrolling platformers or shooters that look basically indistinguishable from Mario 2 (for example, ANY NES movie tie-in game that was a side scroller or shooter).

      I assure you, not much has changed. There are still some worthwhile gems sprinkled in among garbage. If anything, the lowered cost of physical CD/DVD production has allowed more quality, niche games (tactical combat games, for example) to be ported from the Japanese market than the cartridge medium allowed.

    11. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming that console gaming is the same as PC gaming is way off. With a console, everyone has the same hardware, so it's expected that developers take advantage of it. On a PC, not everyone has a fancy new graphics card or the newest CPU or a ton of RAM.

      You can still get quality from making games that will run on older PC hardware. Take Deus Ex, for example. It didn't have the greatest graphics, but it was amazingly fun and addicting. And fun is what a game should be.

    12. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...about 75% of Wii games are crappy mini-game collections with virtually no purpose that involve shaking around the Wii remote to try to do something.

      This hearkens back to my Health Class in Junior High....

    13. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      look back to the NES where we only had a few major developers there was a lot of quality games made

      There were also tons of sub-standard games made. This is nothing new. There have always been loads of garbage games on the market.

      The only difference between today and a few generations ago is that just about every game is sub-par, with the worthwhile ones few and far between.

    14. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by atraintocry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The NES saw the release of something like 700 games. I think most were Mega Man titles, actually. A lot were high-quality, but most were complete crap, even worse than South Park for N64. I guess they were lovable, though. Of the games I had/have, some are now called classics, depsite the fact that they're basically unplayable, or terrible adaptations of movies/shows (it didn't start with 3D consoles...check out Friday the 13th). Something that controlled like Ironsword would be laughed at these days. But at least it had cool songs and artwork, not many of them even had that.

      Now it's the FPS you can't escape from. Back then you had your platformers, beat-em-up platformers, action platformers, and the occasional top-down game. You'd think some of the third-party software makers could have come up with a decent platform engine, but they didn't. For every playable game like Mega Man or Shatterhand, there was Wrestlemania or Rollergames, where "winning" meant not developing childhood arthritis. Don't get me wrong, I loved those games, but I don't think quality has gone downhill overall from the 80s. Up, if anything. There'll always be the ones you love to remember and the ones you would like to forget.

    15. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh... I love the smell of selective memory in the morning. Especially when coupled with nostalgia.

      If you owned a NES back in 1990 (when it was still king of the hill), you'll recall that there was a very poor S:N ratio in game selection. Sure, there were a ton of "gems". But that's because there were 27 tons of pure crap churned out. The NES has a library of games in the 800-1000 range. Name more than 50 good ones, and I'll buy you a Coke*.

      *copy* *paste*

      If you owned a SNES back in 1995 (when it was still king of the hill), you'll recall that there was a very poor S:N ratio in game selection. Sure, there were a ton of "gems". But that's because there were 22 tons of pure crap churned out. The SNES has a library of games in the 700-900 range. Name more than 40 good ones, and I'll buy you a Coke*.

      *copy* *paste*

      If you owned a PSX back in 1999 (when it was still king of the hill), you'll recall that there was a very poor S:N ratio in game selection. Sure, there were a ton of "gems". But that's because there were 19 tons of pure crap churned out. The PSX has a library of games in the 500-700 range. Name more than 30 good ones, and I'll buy you a Coke*.

      And so it goes. If you'll notice, the ratio of good games to bad ones is getting better, even if at only a glacial pace.

      * I will not buy you a Coke.

    16. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      make ... games that run on reasonable hardware, instead of ... games that require incredibly expensive stuff few people have.

      That part is actually intentional. If you can afford a $1500-$2500 system (how cheap "incredibly expensive" computers have become), you can afford to buy the game. If you cannot, you probably cannot (or at least are less likely to). It's another method of copy protection.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    17. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It must be nice to live in a rose-tinted world behind those pink shades of yours. You're remembering the hits of the NES and forgetting the misses. We had PLENTY of misses with the NES -- and the Atari, if you're old enough to remember that.
      Things didn't 'suddenly change' when the PS1 or N64 came about -- you're just noticing how hard it is now to find anything good now that you're older.

    18. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      It's quite ironic that games have (on average) gotten worse as games popularity has increased.

      Do you think this is a symptom of everyone and their dog wanting to produce games rather than (mainly) those who loved doing it?

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    19. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Even if you look back to the NES where we only had a few major developers there was a lot of quality games made, games that pushed the hardware to the limit. In the SNES/Genesis era things stayed the same. But once we got to the PS1/N64 era, we got flooded with a ton of really crappy games.

      You haven't spent much time with a full NES rom set and an emulator recently, have you?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    20. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Jasonjk74 · · Score: 1

      Even if you look back to the NES where we only had a few major developers there was a lot of quality games made, games that pushed the hardware to the limit. In the SNES/Genesis era things stayed the same. But once we got to the PS1/N64 era, we got flooded with a ton of really crappy games.

      I seem to recall plenty of terrible games for the Atari 2600 and NES. It just didn't seem that way at the time.

      ...then midway into the '90s something started to go terribly, terribly wrong. Every movie had some lame video game tie-in, games started to all be the same, originality seemed to be confined to first-party developers.

      Remember ET for the 2600?

    21. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by tbannist · · Score: 1

      I've found that pirates also tend to be cheaters. They have a virtually unlimited supply of games, so they can't afford to spend any significant time on any one game. This means they use cheats to start a game with all the powerups and invulnerability on. Then they complain that the game sucks because it's not challenging at all and move on the next game they're also going to hate because it's too easy, because they're cheating.

      Frankly, I think they do it to get a false sense of superiority. After all, if every game is too easy, it must be because they're really, really good at playing games. Right? Right?

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    22. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Arccot · · Score: 1

      Even if you look back to the NES where we only had a few major developers there was a lot of quality games made, games that pushed the hardware to the limit. In the SNES/Genesis era things stayed the same. But once we got to the PS1/N64 era, we got flooded with a ton of really crappy games

      It was slightly better for the NES, but not by alot. Mainly because of the draconian rules the publishers had to follow to legally release games for the NES. Nintendo set them up to prevent another Atari fiasco, where people were afraid to buy games because most of them sucked.

      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Seal_of_Quality

      But it's always been the same mostly crap with a few standouts for consoles. I think you might just be looking back at the NES with a haze; forgetting the truly bad games it had.

    23. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Sonnekki · · Score: 1

      > "Make good games that run on reasonable hardware"

      Rogue is still an awesome game

    24. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Keill · · Score: 1

      That's because a large percentage of everything is CRAP. A MUCH smaller percentage is good/excellent - (and the percentage in-between is average). Because of this, any increase in production is guaranteed to produce a higher ratio of crap to good/excellent products.

      Add that to the fact that people forget the crap stuff a lot easier than the good/excellent stuff, and you wind up with the situation we have now - mainstream=lots more stuff produced=more crap/average products=not much more good/excellent products...

      --
      'Stupidity is an often fatal disease' - R. A. Heinlein
    25. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      But then in theory, the ratio of crap to good would stay the same whether it was just a niche, or mass-market.

      That's the point, the ratio was better back then. Maybe in the "early days", ppl programmed games because they loved it, rather than just doing it solely as a business.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    26. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Grim+Beefer · · Score: 1

      What? Are you remembering the same NES that I am? I think that all systems have equally bad games, but perhaps the NES/SNES's good titles are just impassable nowadays.

      The NES had close to a 1000 games, and sure, the quality level was decent at first. The reason being that Nintendo had a very stringent quality control process, to the point that they were deemed authoritarian. Publishers were only allowed to produce a certain amount of titles a year, but a few got around this limitation by creating spin-off companies. For example, Konami created Ultra games, which included some ok titles (Metal Gear), but was mainly B list stuff (Rollergames?).

      The eventual slackening of Nintendo's mandates created a flood of crappy licensed games (Total Recall, anyone?)that are on par, shit wise, with anything today. Some of the licensed games were good, but that's true of the systems you spoke of (Goldeneye is considered one of the best games ever). Going through the list of NES titles, however, will reveal an absolute horde of crap, even in it's day. The impression that the NES had a high level of relative quality is an illusion created by the sheer number of titles for the system (it's easier to remember the good ones, and forget all 4 "Wheel of Fortune" titles). Also, we must keep in mind that the NES had very little mass precedent to compare to, with so much pioneering being done on the system.

      Of course, another contributing factor is the reality of modern game development. David Crane created the NES title, A Boy and His Blob, all by himself, and it happens to be a decent game. How many modern games do you think are created by only one, or even a handful, of persons? I think this means that our expectations are much higher, compared to when we used to be content with a few sprites sliding over pixels with a few beeping tunes thrown in for good measure.

      This is a long post, but I think you can expand this argument to the SNES, which also had it's fair share of utter garbage.

    27. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Ullteppe · · Score: 1

      Very good comment. The signal-noise ratio for games has always been bad - there was a horrible number of crappy arcade games in the boom era, the same happened with the Atari 2600 (which almost killed electronic gaming off).

      What happens is that when enough time has passed, people have forgotten about all of the bad games and only remember the good ones.

      If anything, these days you are starting to see playable demos being available on Xbox live and Sony connect. If anything, this is the solution to the problem.

    28. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually - I'm not sure the ratio was any better back then - that's the point. I've owned a lot of computers/consoles etc. and although I do remember a lot of good games, I also remember an awful lot of crap too - like I said, I'm sure that most people by now have just forgotten about all the crap we had back then...

      Of course, this may be because I'm in the UK and we got a load more games for some platforms than you did in the US, but I don't know for sure - (I had a load of the sinclair and Amiga/Atari computers etc., aswell as the consoles - (not that I ever owned any Sega systems, only Nintendo, and I do remember having a few games on the Nintendo NES, and SNES which wern't exactly brilliant).

      The other thing to remember, is that it's harder to remember games that you never actually owned - and if you went out of your way not to actually own any crap, then it will be harder to remember again... (I got most of my computers 2nd hand with a load of games each time, so I definitely remember owning a lot of crap, unfortunately).

    29. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Keill · · Score: 1

      Doh - I HATE the log-in system on this website - (I posted the above...).

      --
      'Stupidity is an often fatal disease' - R. A. Heinlein
    30. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My gosh, my grandmother has an old Atari and that ET game. It deserved to destroy an industry. Or possibly a small country.

    31. Re:make good games that run on reasonable hardware by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      Not to mention, a lot of the hardware-pushing was actually hardware upgrades. Early NES games were limited by the high cost of ROM memory. As that went down, length of games and amount of artwork went up. The SNES made it (relatively) easy to add coprocessors like the SuperFX to the games, and the more advanced games like Mario Kart used them.

      To be sure, it happens with disc-based games too. But I think it's most noticeable with the NES and SNES (not so much with the Genesis/MegaDrive for whatever reason, at least from what I saw).

  6. Ok, great... by Temtongkek · · Score: 1

    How the hell am I gonna demand my money back if it sucks? Doesn't matter. Anything after X-com: Ufo Defense sucks the farts outta used car seats anyway.

    1. Re:Ok, great... by Syrente · · Score: 1

      How the hell am I gonna demand my money back if it sucks?

      Quite easily; they'll just fork over a nice handful of air.

    2. Re:Ok, great... by theTrueMikeBrown · · Score: 1

      I mostly agree, however Dwarf fortress was made pretty recently, and it is pretty darn good.

    3. Re:Ok, great... by Temtongkek · · Score: 1

      Well, I need that crap to breathe, so I guess it's not a total loss.

    4. Re:Ok, great... by Temtongkek · · Score: 1

      Sweet. Don't get me wrong, there have been some real whammies to come out. Starcraft being a great example. I'm not a super huge gamer, however I do know I've come to hate every damn title out there that requires me to fight in a war that has already been fought in real life. The first Medal of Honor was a blast. Sure, the graphics have come a long way, as well as the enemy AI... but c'mon, how many damn times do you expect save the world from the Nazis? We need an FPS shooter where we save the world from the evil Bush regime. That I'd buy in a heartbeat.

  7. There will be free games, just like television by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 1

    Just like television and radio, games will find a way to make money, and offering them "free" (with advertising in-game/around the game to pay for the production and distribution) will be the forum for many (if not most games). That's how "shared games" will be counterbalanced.

    --
    Harold
    1. Re:There will be free games, just like television by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Wrong.
      Broadcasters are finding this model to SUCK in this new "digital era". DVRs and the intertrons let people skip ads, and advertisers don't like that.

      Instead of NO-CD cracks you'll simply downloaded games with NO-AD cracks.

    2. Re:There will be free games, just like television by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 1

      True; but you can't skip in-show advertising, and we're just beginning to see more and more of that. It works: some shows are even based on advertising. (See the home improvement-type of shows, for example.)

      --
      Harold
    3. Re:There will be free games, just like television by xstonedogx · · Score: 1

      People aren't going to run "no ad" cracks to remove Pepsi vending machines, Dell logos from laptops, and Ford trucks. These elements are unobtrusive and can add realism to the environment.

      There may be "no ad" cracks for pre-game video advertisements, but this will become an arms race and in the long run it will be just easier for most people just to ignore the ads.

    4. Re:There will be free games, just like television by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Apparently you've never watched TV.
      In-show advertising has been around ever since TV itself has.

      It's actually much tamer than it used to be.

    5. Re:There will be free games, just like television by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Have you played Age of Conan?

      SIX, count them SIX publisher/developer/partner/etc logo videos.
      Skippable, sure, but disgusting and annoying.

      In-game ads are almost always obnoxiously out of place and in your face, but oh well, they're usually ignorable. I'd still like to know why there's only Pepsi in the gameworld, and not Coke, or Ford, and not Chevy, etc. (I know why, but I'm making a point - it's not really realistic if the only restaurants in a game are KFC, Pizza Hut, and Taco Bell (all owned by Pepsi))

      Pre-game or inter-game (loading screens, watch this 30 second ad before you can continue, etc) are where the cash moneys would come from, and that type of shit WILL be attacked by the hackers.

      The in-game shit could be attacked too. Those releaser groups would just love to have that billboard in GTA5 have their logo and such.

    6. Re:There will be free games, just like television by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 1

      You're talking about the Milton Berle days. Television has been supported by commercial "breaks" for the majority of its programming (and of its programming years). It's disingenuous to declare that TV has in-show advertising; compared to the early decades: hardly. You'll probably agree with me here, though: we're seeing a rennaissance of in-show advertising, and it's only going to get more blatant as more folks watch television online.

      --
      Harold
    7. Re:There will be free games, just like television by sexconker · · Score: 1

      It's disingenuous to declare that TV has in-show advertising; compared to the early decades: hardly.

      It's actually much tamer than it used to be.

      We are in agreement...

    8. Re:There will be free games, just like television by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 1

      "Yeah, but you would agree that Paris is the capital of France? Wouldn't you agree to that?"

      --
      Harold
  8. New term for piracy, community service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do one and you'll get the other!

  9. Bootlegging by Geof · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Bootlegging: to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization

    This helps to distinguish private copying from for-profit counterfeiting by organized crime.

    1. Re:Bootlegging by Nursie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, doesn't work. Appropriating and taking imply that the original owner is deprived of their property.

    2. Re:Bootlegging by Mascot · · Score: 1

      I disagree. "To take or appropriate". You are not taking anything, you are creating an identical copy.

      I'm for bootlegging, given those two alternatives.

      But I don't think using piracy as a term is really a problem either. If someone says "he pirated a game", there's not much room for misunderstanding. Nobody is going to think he attacked and plundered a ship to obtain the game, as opposed to copied it.

      If, on the other hand, you were to say "he stole a game", most people will think he went into a store and shoplifted.

      Dictionary.com has added it to their definition of pirate, I just noticed.

      8. to use or reproduce (a book, an invention, etc.) without authorization or legal right: to pirate hit records.

    3. Re:Bootlegging by realkiwi · · Score: 1

      +1 for bootlegging when you buy counterfeit games on media. And it should go down well with Americans (no not from the continent[s], the short name for people from the United States of) as they have a long history of bootlegging (think prohibition).

      unauthorized copying would be the second choice for the downloading of copies.

      We all know what piratery really is and it has nothing to do with unauthorised copies of software.

      --
      realkiwi
    4. Re:Bootlegging by Geof · · Score: 1

      "Without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully"? The first part fits, the second is questionable. Plagiarism has much more in common with theft than does simple copying. It unquestionably does deprive the rights holder of credit for the work. (Rights holder, not owner: a rights holder owns the rights, not the work.) Such use of the words "theft" and "stealing" eliminates significant distinctions and impoverishes the language. Neither it stabilized into common usage, despite widespread propaganda.

    5. Re:Bootlegging by samkass · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Nope. "Appropriate" doesn't imply any such thing. (Don't you even TRY to look your words up before telling someone they got a definition wrong?)

      I know Slashdot hates to confront it, but illegal copying really is described by the verb "to steal".

      --
      E pluribus unum
    6. Re:Bootlegging by qoncept · · Score: 1

      Thank god the editorial comment called for a thesaurus, lest everyone pointlessly and annoyingly nitpicking about a term that perfectly communicates what the author intended should be marked off topic.

      --
      Whale
    7. Re:Bootlegging by DaveGod · · Score: 1

      Bootlegging is dictionary-definition correct but most people (well, me anyway) associate it with distribution of things otherwise unavailable. For example, a recording of a live gig.

      The distinction in my mind is that a bootleg most likely does no economic harm to the legit producer: a live recording is unlikely to damage either legit music sales or concert attendance (for me it was an effective advert). Similarly, bootleg liquor during prohibition simply increases sales in Canada.

      Counterfeit goods have an effect on producers which is in line with pirate software, so from that perspective the connotations are apt. However again there is a distinction: they are typically designed to deceive the consumer, passing off a forgery as genuine. This is only one element of piracy.

      That said, both terms are far more appropriate than piracy. Or rather, were better until the word was so widely misused that dictionaries were updated.

    8. Re:Bootlegging by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

      not according to the supreme court it's not.

      --
      This space available.
    9. Re:Bootlegging by RandoX · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm not sure you read your own link. From the first definition you linked to:

      to take exclusive possession of

      That DOES imply that the original owner is deprived of their property. You aren't taking exclusive possession when you copy.

    10. Re:Bootlegging by Threni · · Score: 1

      "breach of number sanctity", given that games, films, music etc are essentially just very long numbers. There are loads of numbers - at the lengths required to store, say, a DVD or album, a bafflingly high number of combinations - so there's no need to be greedy and copy someone else's number without asking nicely or paying for it first. At the same time, you're just copying numbers, so it's hardly something for which the punishment should be even remotely similar to stealing someone's car or forcibly relieving someone of their boat and its contents.

    11. Re:Bootlegging by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Steal: 1 a: to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully

      Take requires a loss. Copying creates no loss, thus "take" is wrong, and including it in the definition implies something that is 100% incorrect. "Approriate" means "to take exclusive possession of" (according to the dictionary site you used). There is nothing exclusive of having copy number 1,000,000,001 of something that they only wanted 1,000,000,000 official copies of. Again, 100% incorrect and implies something that is not true. So it is neaith a taking nor an appropriation. Also, the "without right" is questionable, since everyone has some rights to an object under copyright. To copyright something, you have to first agree to enter it in the Public Domain. As such, I do have some rights to it. That's part of the trade off with copyright. If they don't like it, they can keep it a Trade Secret (but it's hard to sell Trade Secrets in Wal-Mart and claim they are Trade Secrets). And someone who takes it with the intent to distribute and delete isn't going to "keep" it. And make use of "wrongfully" is as close to accurate as any part of this definition would come to covering copyright infringement, but still has some moral implications I personally find at odds with the idea of copyright and the required release to the Public Domain that comes with it.

      There is no definition of "steal" that has ever come close to properly describing copyright infringement. Mainly because they require depriving someone of a physical object, and a copy doesn't take anything from anyone.

    12. Re:Bootlegging by crossmr · · Score: 1

      I don't think that is a universal definition. Many people used to refer to counterfeit tapes, t-shirts, etc I often heard the term surrounding bands where someone would sell "bootleg tapes out of their car" after a concert.

    13. Re:Bootlegging by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 1

      My fave term as well, for many reasons.

      The most famous bootleggers were the unlicensed alcohol distillers. Pot stills making "moonshine" that was of questionable quality. Sure, it wasn't fine cognac, but often rotgut. But it wasn't stealing the grain or the equipment from the legal distillers, as they had their own materials.

      Then there were the bootleg recorders of the concert scene in the 20th century. People who made sneak recordings at concerts. Again, the question of theft is debatable, since they were using their own materials. The recordings were also in demand because they were the only source of a recording of that concert.

      Bootlegging nowadays is not the commercial problem that it is made out to be, or rather the problem is a different one. With the global market, more and more fake merchandise is being distributed. Plagiarised goods that claim to be a good of higher quality. But that is an issue of trying to deceive the customer, to rip people off with shoddy goods masquerading as the original.

  10. TAANSTAFL by Mesa+MIke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They'll be encumbered with ad- and mal- ware.

    1. Re:TAANSTAFL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pardon my pedantry for a moment...

      Don't you mean TANSTAAFL?

  11. Anonymous Coward. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Warez was a personal favorite of mine.

  12. Graphics over gameplay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "PC games are going to be free"

    The only way this would ever work is if people stop considering graphics over gameplay.

    I'm quite ready for that.

    1. Re:Graphics over gameplay by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      I used to be an avid gamer; look up TheFragfest.com in archive.org's "wayback machine". Online Quake/Quake 2 against other players on the internet was awesome.

      The trend now is to sell you a game that's "internet only", and then you have to pay to play on an overloaded server. WTF???

      Give the damned games away as a fee download if you're going to charge for play.

      Any software developer dumb enough to think DRM works is way too dumb to write a good game.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  13. iPhone AppStore has only one free game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Currently, the iPhone AppStore is only showing one free game. Frisbee Golf is $2.99 and they go on up from there.

    1. Re:iPhone AppStore has only one free game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gratz on beinging up the iPhone in something completely unrelated.

      Ass.

  14. Quake Live by reSonans · · Score: 1

    id Software is already heading in this direction with Quake Live, which will earn revenue from in-game advertising.

    --
    Light the blue touch-paper and retire immediately.
  15. Something else is also free at the moment... by rtr1212 · · Score: 1

    a spell checker.

    1. Re:Something else is also free at the moment... by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      Eye all wise ewes a spill chucker. Tat whey ever body thing I'm smart.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  16. Problems... by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sure, free games may solve game "piracy", but it doesn't address what is killing PC gaming. Which are A) Windows, B) Insane hardware requirements and C) Consoles. When all PC games become cross platform (Linux, Windows and Mac), require the average hardware and will run decently on low-end hardware (for example, now it would need to run on 512 MB of RAM and a cheap Intel graphics card), and be better than the games on consoles. Once they solve all those problems PC gaming may be mainstream, but right now they confine themselves to a small niche.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:Problems... by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 3, Interesting

      On point A)Windows: Exactly. Halo 2 running only on Vista? What the...? That's plain wrong, considering most of us are still running XP.

      --
      Harold
    2. Re:Problems... by JCSoRocks · · Score: 5, Informative

      Holy crap can we stop with the "PC gaming is dead / dying" mantra? It's simply not true.
      - US PC Gaming Revenues 2007 - $2.76 billion +12%
      - US PC Gaming Revenues 2008 - $3.1 billion +14% (forecast)
      - Worldwide PC Gaming 2007 - $8.3 billion +14%
      - Worldwide PC Gaming 2008 - $9.6 billion +16% (forecast)

      Those numbers are from the May MaximumPC. PC gaming is *not* dead, it's growing. Stop spreading the FUD.

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    3. Re:Problems... by Spatial · · Score: 2, Informative

      The worst thing about that was that it was nothing but a cynical move to get people to use Vista, not any technical limitation. I've completed the game in XP for god's sake.

    4. Re:Problems... by King_TJ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, someone please mod the parent post up!

      PC Gaming is dying because people are tired of the "latest, greatest" games not only including a $50 price tag, but also another $250 price tag for a new video card to play them well!

      People constantly complain that the Mac is "not a viable computer" for them because they don't have enough games out for them, not enough graphics card options, etc. But I can see the flip-side of that. Sometimes it's nice watching Apple "hold the line", saying "What?! These configurations REALLY aren't good enough for you? They're good enough for all the *real* applications we sell. They're good enough for Hollywood to edit movies on and create special f/x with. They're good enough for pro photographers and artists. They're even good enough for the people who DO bother to port the "best of breed" PC games over to our platform, here and there. If you'd rather play "musical video card swap" every few months, go get a regular Wintel PC instead!"

      The low-end, ultra-small notebooks are a booming market-segment right now, too. Another sign that people realize their computers are just FINE for everything they do BUT the games with insane requirements. So sure, people just invest in the one-time cost of a console, and focus their gaming budget on titles for it, instead.

    5. Re:Problems... by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 1

      Actually, there's no reason for your getting upset, since this article explicitly denies PC games dying. Read its first sentence, "PC gaming may not be dying..." Your evidence is appreciated, however. I'll add this one as further evidence: EGM, recognizing PC Gaming's continuing relevance, just added a new column/pages to exclusively cover PC Gaming.

      --
      Harold
    6. Re:Problems... by zerocommazero · · Score: 1

      I'd like to see the breakdown for those numbers. How much of that money is just subscription earned. I understand your opinion but i thnk the point alot of people are making is in the amount of titles out per month, etc. That angle should be addressed as well.

    7. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, free games may solve game "piracy", but it doesn't address what is killing PC gaming. Which are A) Windows, B) Insane hardware requirements and C) Consoles. When all PC games become cross platform (Linux, Windows and Mac), require the average hardware and will run decently on low-end hardware (for example, now it would need to run on 512 MB of RAM and a cheap Intel graphics card), and be better than the games on consoles. Once they solve all those problems PC gaming may be mainstream, but right now they confine themselves to a small niche.

      So you want something to look more amazing than a console game but run with half the hardware requirements and still be multi-platform? The reason consoles get such nice stuff out of worse hardware is that they have a guarantee of which hardware is going to run and do not have to support potentially several billion different combination.

    8. Re:Problems... by Samuel_Gompers · · Score: 1

      Nothing is "killing PC gaming". Blizzard, Funcom, Valve, Id, Maxis/EA, Bethesda, Creative Assembly, all have a great relationship with the PC. PCs have the biggest market and the best margins. Meanwhile, PS3 struggles to get a single quality family title on the shelves and xbox is a multi-billion sinkhole no matter how you slice it.

    9. Re:Problems... by zerocommazero · · Score: 1

      But I think that's because their biggest competitor, GameInformer, covers both consoles and PC Games. Also, their sister mag just went under so there probably is a need to make sure some form of PC gaming is publiced/covered by the parent publishing company Ziff Davis especially when it comes to ad revenue, etc.

    10. Re:Problems... by bhamlin · · Score: 1

      I dunno, Netcraft confirmed that PC gaming was dead a few months ago...

    11. Re:Problems... by JCSoRocks · · Score: 1

      According to the mag those numbers came from DFC Intelligence... maybe that'll help you get the break down you want.

      Personally I don't see any problems with the number of releases coming out. We may be seeing fewer of a specific genre (seriously, how many MMORPG's do we need?) but overall, I feel like there's more variety in PC games than ever. You can't go by sheer numbers anyway. Honestly, a good number of the games (console and PC both) that come out are garbage. Quality is much more important here than quantity. I don't want to play two crappy $25 games... or even 5 $10 games. I want to play one, amazing, $50 title.

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    12. Re:Problems... by msormune · · Score: 1

      But these "insane" hardware requirements are very cheap, so they are really not insane, don't you think? I mean,a decent gfx card and 2 gigs of RAM don't cost a fortune like it used to.

      And why blame Windows: It provides a very good platform for game developers.

      I do agree with the console argument, though. Which is why I see no real reason to buy a PC for gaming anymore. I mean, why would you? Just buy the damn console.

    13. Re:Problems... by Dorkmaster+Flek · · Score: 1

      Nothing is "killing PC gaming". Blizzard, Funcom, Valve, Id, Maxis/EA, Bethesda, Creative Assembly, all have a great relationship with the PC. PCs have the biggest market and the best margins. Meanwhile, PS3 struggles to get a single quality family title on the shelves and xbox is a multi-billion sinkhole no matter how you slice it.

      There's a reason World of Warcraft runs on 5 year old hardware. The best selling PC titles for several years include The Sims series. You sure as hell didn't need a GeForce 9000 to run those.

      --
      I like to think of online DRM as something akin to a college -- you pay for lessons until you learn something.
    14. Re:Problems... by MrSteveSD · · Score: 1

      Yes along with ridiculous artificial restrictions aimed at boosting sales of vista. I was stung with this when I purchased Crysis. Physics in multiplayer is only available in Vista and they claimed this was something to do with DirectX10 (only available on Vista). Also I wish they would stop using proprietary DirectX crap and stick to OpenGL which is an open standard.

    15. Re:Problems... by rgviza · · Score: 1

      >what is killing PC gaming
      Score:5, Hilarious

      Sounds like someone needs some updated hardware 8)

      -Viz

      --
      Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
    16. Re:Problems... by BOFslime · · Score: 1

      The flaw in your argument is that games are designed to push the hardware envelope. Writing more efficient rendering engines that still accomplishes your visual goals is something that could be improved on. However something that is going to run on a cheap intel graphics chipset, is going to look like it was released in 1998, and then you would hear complaints about good video games again.

    17. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's seen as "dying" because it's growing at a fraction of the pace of gaming in general.

    18. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "musical video card swap" every few months?

      I've only owned 4 different video cards over the past decade... all for under $200 (which is really just my latest, a Geforce 9600; the other three before it were 100 to 130). I've had absolutely no problem playing the latest and the greatest.

    19. Re:Problems... by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      [clang]
      Bring out your dead!
      Here's one.
      Ninepence.
      I'm not dead!
      What?
      Nothing. Here's your ninepence.
      I'm not dead!
      'Ere. He says he's not dead!
      Yes, he is.
      I'm not!
      He isn't?
      Well, he will be soon. He's very ill.
      I'm getting better!
      No, you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment.
      Oh, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
      I don't want to go on the cart!
      Oh, don't be such a baby.
      I can't take him.
      I feel fine!
      Well, do us a favour.
      I can't.
      Well, can you hang around a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
      No, I've got to go to the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.
      Well, when's your next round?
      Thursday.
      I think I'll go for a walk.
      You're not fooling anyone, you know. Look. Isn't there something you can do?
      [singing] I feel happy. I feel happy.
      [whop] Ah, thanks very much.
      Not at all. See you on Thursday.
      Right. All right. [howl] [clop clop clop]
      Who's that, then?
      I dunno. Must be a king.
      Why?
      He hasn't got shit all over him.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    20. Re:Problems... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That doesn't mean it's growing, it means revenu is up.
      How does it compare to new PC ownership?
      How does it correlate to game costs?
      How is the number from other countries impact it?
      Some games are cheaper or billed differently in different countries.

      I'm not saying it's dead, I'm saying the numbers are meaningless of themselves.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    21. Re:Problems... by Samuel_Gompers · · Score: 1

      And there's a reason that most or all of that list I mentioned is obsessed with QA and devotes a significant amount to it relative to r&d resources.

    22. Re:Problems... by Tikkun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      - Worldwide PC Gaming 2007 - $8.3 billion +14%
      - Worldwide PC Gaming 2008 - $9.6 billion +16% (forecast)

      I think about 2 billion of that is WoW... ;)

    23. Re:Problems... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      It has nothing to do with Windows.

    24. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen. I hate console games due to the crude control device. Give me a keyboard and mouse any day over those silly vibrating controllers. As far as hardare goes, I'm really sorry your Packard Bell with 64MB of RAM can't handle Crysis.

    25. Re:Problems... by kidgenius · · Score: 1

      Nothing is "killing PC gaming". Blizzard, Funcom, Valve, Id, Maxis/EA, Bethesda, Creative Assembly, all have a great relationship with the PC. PCs have the biggest market and the best margins. Meanwhile, PS3 struggles to get a single quality family title on the shelves and xbox is a multi-billion sinkhole no matter how you slice it.

      Want a quality family title for the PS3? How about Ratchet & Clank, Hot Shots Golf, or Gran Turismo 5? LittleBigPlanet will be here in a matter of months. Other games on the Playstation Network like Calling All Cars, flOw, and PixelJunk Monsters are rated for everyone and are a great amount of fun. You want to try your point again?

    26. Re:Problems... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      I, too, tried to limit buying new video cards ... but I also discovered I really wasn't getting the full potential out of the newer games, when I finally got to sit down and play them on systems with newer video boards in them.

      For example, when Bioshock came out, it was using DirectX 10, but most people's video boards still only supported DX 9. I had JUST bought a new video card about 2 months before-hand, and it didn't do DX 10. So I was stuck playing the game without seeing all of its capabilities.

      There are currently some good values in "relatively high end, capable video cards" that didn't really exist at the same price point in the past. (The nVidia 8800GT is already considered an "older" card, and sells for under $200 - but can run everything you throw at it quite nicely right now, even at a native resolution used by a typical 22" LCD panel.) But traditionally, this wasn't the case. People with larger LCD monitors had video cards that just couldn't keep frame-rates up at the native resolutions, so gaming suffered.

      If current trends continue, I suspect the "window of opportunity" will once again close up, and everyone's card that "runs everything I throw at it, and only cost me $179") will soon need upgrading again, if you want to use whatever the next big innovation is in gaming graphics.

    27. Re:Problems... by Samuel_Gompers · · Score: 1

      Ok, 'ratchet and clank', and a golf and racing game.... And, of course, the 'matter of months', which is PS3's specialty. There's a reason that nintendo makes all of the money in that niche, and there's a reason that Sony is a similarly total failure in the MMO space.

    28. Re:Problems... by gosand · · Score: 1

      Yes, someone please mod the parent post up!

      PC Gaming is dying because people are tired of the "latest, greatest" games not only including a $50 price tag, but also another $250 price tag for a new video card to play them well!

      First off, I don't think the PC Gaming industry is dying.. I just think it isn't growing like it was in the past. Here's the thing: they created this "must have latest and greatest" culture, and now they are getting bitten by it. Want latest and greatest? You have to buy $300 worth of hardware. Same goes for the music industry... they created the culture of "gotta have it" music, then they refused to embrace MP3s. They missed out on a GOLD mine.

      I used to play a few games, but couldn't keep up. I almost bought a new video card in anticipation of Half-Life2, but thought better of it. Turned out to be a pretty good decision.... the game was delayed, and now there are cards that can run it for really cheap. Of course, I still haven't bought it. In fact, and this will probably shock a lot of people, I am still playing Half-Life single-player mods that are out there. And I am running it through WINE on Linux. So I'm probably not the typical gamer. I don't feel like I am missing out on anything, and when I do get around to playing HL2, I will have a ton of fun times ahead of me. Oh, and I haven't owned a console since Super Nintendo. I have no interest in crap like GTA or whatever else is out there. Maybe people have just learned that you CAN live without games, and people who live for gaming are kind of.. well, ridiculous.

      --

      My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    29. Re:Problems... by kidgenius · · Score: 1

      Nice you seem to have neglected the PSN games I've mentioned. Name all the amazingly wonderful games that are out for the Wii. You have Wii sports, Boom Blox, Mario Galaxy and Wii fit. Not really any more than the PS3. Most games for the Wii are awful.

    30. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Utter crap. I've had my 2800+ and Geforce 6600 for 5 years now and it runs TF2 etc perfectly fine.

    31. Re:Problems... by Samuel_Gompers · · Score: 1

      The "family" niche = games you stick a five-year-old in front of in lieu of cartoons. Access to an online gaming service isn't necessarily part of what makes these products attractive to parents. Sony obviously fails to understand this market, much as they failed to understand the MMO market and let Apple waltz away with the whole music industry right under their noses. All of the fanboy posturing in the world doesn't change the fact that the scoreboard shows Nintendo making billions from the Wii while Sony's video games unit generally dog-paddles in place form year to year.

    32. Re:Problems... by Yeef · · Score: 1

      The problem with saying that PC gaming is 'dying' is that a lot of people disagree on what, specifically, counts as PC gaming. Most people who'd call themselves gamers think of the big franchises and developers when they think of PC gaming. Half-life and Crysis and so on.

      But those aren't the only PC games out there. Some people would include flash games amongst PC games (though it can be debated that you can play those games on two of the three current-gen consoles as well) which are certainly far more popular with the non-gaming crowd than even console games.

      The biggest problem, though, when comparing PC gaming to console gaming is that most people see it as X vs. Y. Consoles vs. PC. It's more accurate, in my opinion, to see the PC as another platform; to compare it individually to the Wii or the XBox 360, etc. rather than to the consoles as a whole.

      Even if commercial PC gaming becomes a thing of the past (I highly doubt it ever will) because the platform is so open there will always be the hobbyists who simply enjoy making games that will keep churning our content. So, although investing in PC gaming from a publishers point of view may not be a great idea, from the player's view I don't see any real cause for concern.

      --
      I was once a horse.
    33. Re:Problems... by Iberian · · Score: 1

      Not sure what you are doing here on Slashdot. Geeks know that cards to edit movies, create f/x, create art work, and run photoshop are generally not the same cards used for gaming. Those are generally high end workstation graphic cards. Granted you could use a latest generation gaming card to do those same jobs but that would be foolish, and you wouldn't be doing that on a Mac because well they don't do latest generation unless they are upgrading their lineup.

      Furthermore you can get a 2nd to last gen card and play most any game except poorly programmed games like Crysis. This goes for Macs as well if the game was released for Mac.

    34. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Query: Do these figures include MMORPG sales figures and/or monthly revenues, or are they strictly retail sales of home games? Yeah, that's what I thought. Thank you, come again.

    35. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which, accounting for a 1%/year of normal increase in population, 3%/year of increase in prices (inflation) and - an estimated - 5%/year of increase in disposable income for the younger generations... it all comes down to a "real terms" increase of 3%-7% depending on the region and year, if your figures are correct in the first place (which sounds they might not be as everyone is crying wolf about losses in music sales - because of piracy, ehm, copyright infringement - so I don't see why these "complaints" should not apply to the game industry...)

    36. Re:Problems... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      But these "insane" hardware requirements are very cheap, so they are really not insane, don't you think? I mean,a decent gfx card and 2 gigs of RAM don't cost a fortune like it used to.

      Lets see... A good gaming rig costs about $600. For that I can buy both a Wii ($250) and a 360 ($350). Secondly, my Wii and 360 are going to play 95% of all new games without me spending anything extra. The other 5% are usually extra controllers (such as a DDR pad, or a Guitar Hero guitar). And games are about the same amount ($50 for both a console game and a PC game) but for PCs you usually have to add in various MS taxes, not only do you have to buy Vista for Direct X 10, you have to get XP to run any other games at a good speed. PC gaming is still a lot more expensive then console gaming is.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    37. Re:Problems... by descil · · Score: 1

      They're just trying to convince their customers that this is a good thing, by whining apparently. Generally if revenue is up, it's not believable to say "OH CRAP WE'RE DYING!"

    38. Re:Problems... by WDot · · Score: 1

      As opposed to, say, $400 + an HDTV to play the latest and greatest console games?

      Here's the deal, you don't need to upgrade your video card every year. In fact, you don't need to drop $250 on a card, ever. Take a cheap Dell or Emachines PC and stick a $150 card in it, maybe $50 for 2GB of RAM if it's really lacking, and you're done for a couple of years AT LEAST. Even if a new generation of video cards come out, you don't need to upgrade if you don't want to.

      At the LANs I host, almost everybody brings laptops. That means they all have 3-generation-old non-upgradeable cards. We've never had a problem. But then again, sometimes we play older games because they are still FUN. And sometimes we play games from 2008, and turn down the settings to accommodate our hardware. Sometimes we don't even need to turn down the settings.

      PC games have gotten to the point where many of them still look EXCELLENT on low settings. Don't believe me? Download the Portal or Crysis demo and specifically play at low settings. Now play at highest settings. Except for some more lighting effects, there isn't much of a difference is there? Gone are the days of things looking like shapeless blobs because they are on "low settings."

    39. Re:Problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1 word (and 1 annoying acronym) MMORPG revenue.

      How big a chunk is that of the overall cake now and 10 years ago?.

      Don't know about you but liked it better when they were focusing on making great single player games.

    40. Re:Problems... by msormune · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... why would you re-buy Vista if it most likely already comes preinstalled with your gaming rig? And as for Vista vs XP, I don't really think there's much difference in gaming speed. Except of course here in slashdot world where Vista sucks no matter what... For some reason I have no trouble with mine.

      I think my original argument stands: $600 is NOT a lot of money for a gaming PC, and of course you can use for a lot of other things you cannot use console for, like spreadsheets, 3d modelling etc.

      But I would not buy a PC just for gaming... maybe Xbox360 for the next Christmas for myself :)

    41. Re:Problems... by jfim · · Score: 1

      Sometimes it's nice watching Apple "hold the line", saying "What?! These configurations REALLY aren't good enough for you? They're good enough for all the *real* applications we sell. They're good enough for Hollywood to edit movies on and create special f/x with. They're good enough for pro photographers and artists. They're even good enough for the people who DO bother to port the "best of breed" PC games over to our platform, here and there. If you'd rather play "musical video card swap" every few months, go get a regular Wintel PC instead!"

      But those are 2D apps with only minimal usage of 3D hardware. I mean, you could run Photoshop on Windows 3.11, way before 3D graphics hardware became mainstream. Also, most special effect editing can be done with nothing else than a framebuffer, so there's little stress on the 3D hardware either.

      Also, if you say that the hardware configurations are good enough for the people who bother to port games, then why are Mac ports almost universally panned for having poor performance, such as:

      Even loaded, the current DOOM 3 Macintosh performance lags behind the PC world (IMG on Doom 3)

      Requires fairly high-end system (IMG on ET:QW)

      High system requirements that still don't satisfy gameplay (IMG on Guitar Hero 3)

    42. Re:Problems... by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      I think my original argument stands: $600 is NOT a lot of money for a gaming PC, and of course you can use for a lot of other things you cannot use console for, like spreadsheets, 3d modelling etc.

      [CronoCloud@mideel ~]$ cat /etc/redhat-release
      Yellow Dog Linux release 6.0 (Pyxis)
       
      [CronoCloud@mideel ~]$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
      processor : 0
      cpu : Cell Broadband Engine, altivec supported
      clock : 3192.000000MHz
      revision : 5.1 (pvr 0070 0501)
       
      processor : 1
      cpu : Cell Broadband Engine, altivec supported
      clock : 3192.000000MHz
      revision : 5.1 (pvr 0070 0501)
       
      timebase : 79800000
      platform : PS3
       
      [CronoCloud@mideel ~]$ whereis oocalc
      oocalc: /usr/bin/oocalc

      No 3d modeling though, no hardware acceleration in X, damn it.

    43. Re:Problems... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      mmm... why would you re-buy Vista if it most likely already comes preinstalled with your gaming rig? And as for Vista vs XP, I don't really think there's much difference in gaming speed. Except of course here in slashdot world where Vista sucks no matter what... For some reason I have no trouble with mine.

      Because Vista actually has *gasp* a price when it comes "free" with your new computer. So you are still buying it, albeit at a discounted price. And for some reason on a few decent laptops that I have use sometimes with Vista on them, it is slow, unresponcive, you have to wait like 10 minutes after the eternal boot-up time to actually use it, things randomly freeze, etc. And I really wouldn't call an Intel dual-core CPU and 512 MB underpowered, nor a Turion 64 X2 with 1 GB of RAM underpowered either. especially that once you put a decent OS on them (such as Ubuntu or even XP) they really fly. Sure you might get OK performance if you go overkill on your hardware, but really, do you want to get Pentium III level performance on your new dual-core CPU or dual-core performance on your new CPU?

      I think my original argument stands: $600 is NOT a lot of money for a gaming PC, and of course you can use for a lot of other things you cannot use console for, like spreadsheets, 3d modelling etc.

      Except that on a PS3 you can use it for spreadsheets (no 3-d acceleration for modeling though) and other consoles are easily hacked to run Linux, and the Wii has a usable web browser and, really, that is half the reason I boot up a computer for anyways, is to check my webmail, read /., etc. And that is only $250 and just about the cheapest computer you can get that won't even play anything more than solitaire is $200. And how long before that $600 gaming rig becomes obsolete? I'd give it about 2 years before you have to upgrade the OS/RAM/Graphics card to play the new games at decent performance. Not to mention all the things that a Windows box needs if it is connected to the 'Net, such as an Anti-Virus, Anti-Spyware, extra-secure firewall, which can add up in $$$ if you use commercial products.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    44. Re:Problems... by DiEx-15 · · Score: 1

      Sure, free games may solve game "piracy", but it doesn't address what is killing PC gaming. Which are A) Windows, B) Insane hardware requirements and C) Consoles. When all PC games become cross platform (Linux, Windows and Mac), require the average hardware and will run decently on low-end hardware (for example, now it would need to run on 512 MB of RAM and a cheap Intel graphics card), and be better than the games on consoles. Once they solve all those problems PC gaming may be mainstream, but right now they confine themselves to a small niche.

      I agree partially to your comments, but my view is:

      1) I don't think Windows is doing as much to harm the PC Game industry as we'd think. Oh that isn't to say that Vista is problematic when it comes to games. However, most games play with little to no difficulty on Windows based systems. If you want to still point fingers at a corporation for problematic PC gaming, point it at Electronic Arts. Do I have to say anything really about them? I am just saying that Micro$oft has little, if any, blame to killing the PC Game industry.

      2) If you look at what is coming out for PC Games, we see a LOT of Tech Driven games. Games that push less about content and more on what runs the games. It does not help that most developers have to sell their eternal souls to hardware companies to get the funding for their games. However, reread that statement again - they HAVE TO get funding somehow and thus are forced to push technology rather than content.

      3) Consoles have one major advantage over PCs - Global Distribution. First - Most console games and Consoles are made in Japan or overseas. Most PC games are made in the United States. Even that causes a problem considering the biggest PC Game maker in the US is Electronic Ass.. err.. Arts. In addition, console games/systems don't need upgrades every year to play the latest games and don't have to sell their souls to hardware manufactures to get funding. No, they sell their souls to the console manufacturer. What is good about that? It means the console maker has more say in the quality and content. Also that means the odds of the game being buggy and flawed are minimized. Meanwhile a PC game made by EA can be total rubbish as far as content and crash like a freight train... just as long as it pushes a $4,000 PC to its limits.

      To be honest, there is no easy solutions to these problems. One major way to fix the PC Game problem and stop the "ill gotten" game tide is for game companies to stop worrying about ill gotten games and focus on making quality games that every PC owner can play. Yes, this even includes Mac users and alternate OS users. Sadly, the odds of EA and others doing this is about up there with me crapping a gold brick.

      Until PC Game Companies realize it is the content that makes sales and not the hardware, distribution, or platform, I really cannot see PC games improving any time soon.

    45. Re:Problems... by proselyte_heretic · · Score: 1

      Why are you so quick to call it FUD? Isn't it much more effective to simply correct the people who claim that "piracy/bootlegging/copyright violation is killing the video game industry". If correlation is the same as causation, then piracy is helping the video game industry.

  17. In Sowiet Russia, Games play you by questhe · · Score: 1

    TV watches you
    Products buy you

    --
    You don't understand: I am not locked up in here with you, you are locked up in here with ME!
  18. Re:Anonymous Coward by jeiler · · Score: 1

    Fail. Do not pass go. Do collect negative karma.

    --

    If you haven't been down-modded lately, you aren't trying.

    Sacred cows make the best hamburger.

  19. May I suggest a spell checker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would make for much easier to read articles.

  20. I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would still be willing to BUY games (I don't pirate them, I just haven't found much to interest me, console OR desktop alike).

    Again, I would still be willing to BUY games if they would stop rehashing half witted half finished games. So few companies really release good games, and everyone expects insane growth. Always "growth". Perhaps some retards somewhere forgot that you can only grow so much before your body either collapses under its own weight or you evolve into something else. Otherwise, no luck.

    Blizzard always releases late. People understand them. Why? Because Blizzard, ID, Ravensoft and no others I can think of, have managed to release a bug free or complete product. Most of their fixes, in my memory, have been playbalancing, rare bugs on rare configs, etc. But their games WORK. Other people's games... often hit and run.

    Why is it that so FEW companies actually put out workable, GOOD products? Perhaps if more of them did, and if shoddy products were to be refunded in FULL, then perhaps better products would "revitalize" the market.

    Games don't need to be free. Shitty ones and incomplete ones should be. The "no return if opened" policy is bullshit. It just allows a company to sell a shitty game and get away with it. It allows a store to carry a non tested product and get away with it. But hell, if pharmaceutical companies and electronics and even car companies can get away with shoddy products, why not the software industry? If the customers keep waiting for governments to step in and save them, they ought to realize that it is MUCH easier to buy off bureaucrats and politicians than ten thousand pissed off freemen customers, some of whom might be willing and able to use their rights (from the vocal to the physical) when other means fail to extract remedy for shoddy product and vaporware sold as an actual, complete product. Fraud of this sort should be held accountable by the victims, the customers. Until the customers demand quality, and stand by that remark... and demand refunds on shitty products, until that occurs... well, nothing's gonna change.

    --
    " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    1. Re:I prefer this idea: by truthsearch · · Score: 4, Funny

      Other people's games... often hit and run.

      Hit and run games are fun, too. Now hit and miss games I could understand not liking. ;)

    2. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "no return if opened" policy is bullshit.

      it is if the disc can't be copied by "regular" means like the CD/DVD burner that comes pre-installed with your PC. but in other case, e.g. audio CD, there is no guarantee that the consumer has not made a copy. that really is immoral.

      but I agree that in 99% of the cases it is bullshit.

    3. Re:I prefer this idea: by klashn · · Score: 1

      I agree that the "no return if opened" policy is hurting consumers, but what I don't believe is people just go out to the store and buy games without trying them as they could with demos and even pirated games! I'm guessing that about 95% of /. geeks have high speed internet access of at least 2MB/s download. Use it!

    4. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The "no return if opened" policy is bullshit.

      This is actually a very good point. I didn't pirate things anywhere near as much as I do not before that policy. Back when Egghead or wherever would accept returns, I bought a game and, if it was horribly buggy or just plain sucked, I returned it. When they changed that policy, that is when I started looking on pirate BBSes, etc.

      The natural extension of that is the Internet and technologies like BitTorrent.

      The same kind of thing applies for the ridiculous anti-piracy measures that publishers take (e.g., SecureROM). If you make it a pain in the fucking ass for me to use your product, don''t be surprised if I shoot you the finger and, in so doing, get the product from somewhere else.

      The solution is to increase product quality, while reducing the negative impact on consumers such as "The correct CD is not in the drive."

    5. Re:I prefer this idea: by p0tat03 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Again, I would still be willing to BUY games if they would stop rehashing half witted half finished games

      I realize that you personally haven't used it to justify piracy, but I see this all too often from pirates. This is not a valid excuse. If games really sucked so much, you wouldn't even be interested in pirating them!

      Why is it that so FEW companies actually put out workable, GOOD products?

      What games don't work? List some, and I will list you twice as many that do ship in a reasonably working, bug-free form.

    6. Re:I prefer this idea: by smussman · · Score: 1

      Blizzard always releases late. People understand them. Why? Because Blizzard, ID, Ravensoft and no others I can think of, have managed to release a bug free or complete product. Most of their fixes, in my memory, have been playbalancing, rare bugs on rare configs, etc. But their games WORK. Other people's games... often hit and run.

      I've had good luck so far with Kerberos Productions. However, they've only made one game so far (Sword of the Stars), so if you don't like 4X games, you're kinda out of luck

    7. Re:I prefer this idea: by Hyppy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Trying a demo doesn't do much when your video card tends to lock up on the stage after the demo, or other such unforeseeable events.

    8. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd add in Bioware to that list of studios.

    9. Re:I prefer this idea: by SomeJoel · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That would be a hint to not buy the full game.

      --
      <Complete your profile by adding a signature!>
    10. Re:I prefer this idea: by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which is why i think game developers like consoles so much more than PCs. It's much easier to ensure everyone has a good experience when everybody is running the exact same hardware.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    11. Re:I prefer this idea: by IsThisNickTaken · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I think the phrase "stage after the demo" implies that the problem would not show up in the demo and only after you have bought the game...

    12. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the stage AFTER the demo

    13. Re:I prefer this idea: by Leonard+Fedorov · · Score: 1

      Which is nice in theory, but then Microsoft went ahead to release a 360 without a hard drive, meaning that Mass Effect had to have those horrible elevator because it couldn't rely on pre-caching.

    14. Re:I prefer this idea: by electricbern · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing that about 95% of /. geeks have high speed internet access of at least 2MB/s download. Use it!

      I use dial-up you insensitive clod!

      --
      alias possession='chmod 666 satan && ls /dev > il && tail daemon.log'
    15. Re:I prefer this idea: by sm62704 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I think you unintentionally found the replacement for the term "pirate".

      it is MUCH easier to buy off bureaucrats and politicians than ten thousand pissed off freemen customers

      The Fremen fought CHOAM and the Sppacing Guild. Perfect name for copyright infringers!

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    16. Re:I prefer this idea: by billcopc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      +50, Nailed it!

      The no-refund policy leads to horrible products with fantastic marketing budgets. What's a scorned gamer to do, sue the company ? On what grounds ? You can't prove "lack of fun" in court.

      I'm of the opinion that piracy / software theft / whatever you wanna call it, helps the good game houses and hurts the bad ones. The whole try-before-you-buy excuse is a very valid one IMHO. There's a crapload of software out there, that I would have never heard of, were it not for some illiterate little shit in Norway posting it on Usenet. Not just games but apps too... prime example: O&O Defrag. I saw it on some FTP eons ago, gave it a whirl, and have been a paying user for over eight years now. Why the *&@^ am I paying for a defrag tool ? Because I like the damned thing, that's why. Had it not been pirated, I would still be cursing at MS Defrag / Diskeeper on a daily basis.

      Same thing applies to games. You mentioned Blizzard, well a long long time ago, when I was just a teenager with lots of BBS accounts, I stumbled upon the original Warcraft. I had no clue what this game was, nor did any of my friends, but it was an addictive little thing. Chop wood, mine gold, kill stuff - FUN! Warcraft 2 came out, I trotted down to EB and picked up the War2 battlechest. Then Starcraft, War3, and WoW.

      Had it not been for that pirated copy of the original Warcraft, I would never have bought the 2nd and 3rd installments.

      The same is true for a bunch of Lucasarts games... Day of the Tentacle, anyone ? If it weren't for those massively distributed copies of Monkey Island, I would not have been hooked, and they would have sold $250 less games to this one guy alone.

      Meanwhile, when companies release shitty games, the kind that's not even worth pirating, you can be damned sure I'll never buy their stuff, and I won't bother downloading it either.

      If games didn't cost $60-70 to "try", maybe they would sell more. There are very few shops that release demos anymore, and the ones that do, often pull a Hollywood on us, where the full product only adds filler with no substance. The business model needs to be redesigned from the ground up - new distribution, new (smaller) budgets, greater emphasis on gameplay... it's not so hard, just look at all the runaway hits of recent years like Portal or Sam & Max - inexpensive to make and tons of fun.

      Sure, blockbusters can be good too, but so many of them flop because the money takes over, release dates get bumped up and salaries get chopped. What, you actually believe those no-experience foreign sweat shops with mile-long resumés are going to cut development costs while delivering a superior product ? Ever heard of EA and Activision ? Ever seen them release a top-quality product ?

      The game industry is fucked, much like the music industry. Pointing fingers will not change that.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    17. Re:I prefer this idea: by geekoid · · Score: 1

      ToEE
      Anything by Bethesda

      Of course you can list twice as many. The ones that don't work usually disappear quickly.

      Most Pirates I have heard about download it becasue they aren't sure about it, and paying 60 bucks for something you can't return is a little much.
      A lot of piracy is in the form of downloading something so the play is better, even when you have bought the game.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    18. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carmageddon - nuff said.

    19. Re:I prefer this idea: by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most Pirates I have heard about download it becasue they aren't sure about it

      Yeah, that's what they all say. They somehow think if they convince people they're only "trying" it out then somehow they aren't scumbags.

      The truth of the matter, of course: they "try" it right till the end, or whatever point they don't feel like playing it anymore. It's just as much bullshit as the "backups" euphemism.

    20. Re:I prefer this idea: by PitaBred · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The no return with open package isn't just because of piracy... it's because people would use big-box stores as rental stores. Get a game, play through it, return it and get another one, all "free". What I'd be most impressed with is if they did a return policy like Gamestop does. 7 days, no questions asked, after that, you're SOL. 7 days is long enough that you can return it if it sucks, but short enough that you can't play through most games worth money, assuming you're a normal person. There may be a few people who abuse it, but I think that would be a solution that would appease the greatest number of people, and get more people buying games again.

    21. Re:I prefer this idea: by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Meh. I (and a lot of my friends) own full copies of many games, but still get the cracks and pirated versions. It's just a hell of a lot easier to play, I can keep the disc images on my machine (or not even need them), rather than trying to cart around a bunch of CD's or trying to keep them in pristine condition going in and out of the drive all the time.

    22. Re:I prefer this idea: by Ron_Fitzgerald · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that the words DEMO and BETA seem synonymous now. Demos seem to now be used to bug check rather than to display a finished game in its scaled down form.

      --
      ~ Ron Fitzgerald
    23. Re:I prefer this idea: by peragrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wouldn't classify most pirates that way but quite a few.

      you can't return a game once you opened the box. therefore if the game doesn't play well on your hardware, or if it really sucks and the demo has all the good parts in it(like some movie trailers). Console Gamers can usually rent games from blockbuster, etc.

      PC gamers have to shell out money to even find out if they might actually like it.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    24. Re:I prefer this idea: by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is there any rule for the 360 stating that the game experience has to be the same for all versions of the console? No reason why they couldn't precache if the hard drive is available, and make the people who don't have one suffer. Anyway, I think the whole idea of different versions of a console are completely negating the purpose of the console. The purpose of the console is to give everyone the same system, so that everything works the same for everybody, and people don't have to think and choose about which model to buy. The whole idea of multiple models of consoles just confuses the consumers.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    25. Re:I prefer this idea: by twistedsymphony · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which is why i think game developers like consoles so much more than PCs. It's much easier to ensure everyone has a good experience when everybody is running the exact same hardware.

      Forget DEVELOPERS... it's why _I_ like consoles more than PCs for gaming. I stopped gaming on my PC back in 2002 and I couldn't be happier with the decision. Last time I upgraded my PC in 2003 and I'm still happy with the performance for everything else I use it for which includes audio and photo editing with the occasional CAD work on top of other day-to-day tasks...

      I know most /. gamers have some sort of distaste for console gamers but hey when I get home from the cube farm I can crash on the couch and start playing that new game I picked up from the store as soon as I put the disc in the console... no configuration garbage to play with, no headaches of installing or downloading all of the patches, or worrying if it's going to crash on level 2.

    26. Re:I prefer this idea: by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 0, Troll

      The whole try-before-you-buy excuse is a very valid one IMHO.

      If it's valid, it's no longer an excuse.

    27. Re:I prefer this idea: by Cornflake917 · · Score: 0

      Had it not been for that pirated copy of the original Warcraft, I would never have bought the 2nd and 3rd installments.

      Unlikely. Only one of my friends had Warcraft and I vaguely remember messing around with it for a day. Warcraft 2 was much more popular. There was pretty sizeable group of kids that played it during lunch at my high school. In fact, I think most people didn't even know about Warcraft until it's sequel was released. At worst you would have pirated the second installment, then bought the third.

    28. Re:I prefer this idea: by damienl451 · · Score: 1
      As a general rule, I'm not really in favor of giving customers the right to return what they have purchased. People should realize that it's up to them to do their homework before buying something. There are of course a limited number of exceptions to this rule, primarily when information asymmetry is an issue. Does this apply to videogames? Probably not. It is after all rather easy to try a game before buying it; download a demo, rent the game, etc. Alternatively, you can always read reviews.

      Purchasing a video game is no different from going to the movies. There is no guarantee that you'll enjoy the experience, but you can try to determine whether you're likely to beforehand.

    29. Re:I prefer this idea: by lordofwhee · · Score: 1

      I realize that you personally haven't used it to justify piracy, but I see this all too often from pirates. This is not a valid excuse. If games really sucked so much, you wouldn't even be interested in pirating them!

      I know that when I download a game that sucks ass, I'm glad I didn't waste $60 on it. Same goes for a game that sure as hell isn't worth $60, but what the hell, it's free. Why do people insist on saying that a free game has EXACTLY the same value as a $60 game? That's just stupid!

    30. Re:I prefer this idea: by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      I really don't get that. I've been burned before, most recently by Tribes 2 (yeah, that long ago), when I got so excited over the game I bought it day 1, without reading any reviews. Nowadays I *always* research my sources before a game purchase. You'd probably study up on your TVs before going to BB to get one, why wouldn't you do it for a $60 game? I mean, one quick romp to metacritic will tell you if the game totally sucks, and a quick skim of any reputable review site will reveal any major technical issues.

      I see this as pawning off responsibility onto someone else. There are *lots* of things a consumer can get burned on, and I think a little bit of a research should be the consumer's responsibility.

      And honestly, I see this as a movie analogy. I've never asked for a movie ticket refund because the movie sucked, so why would you expect to refund a game if it sucks? Do your due diligence before making your purchase. I also don't expect to be able to return a Blu-ray movie because I didn't know my shit and tried to pop it into an HD-DVD drive - so buying a game that's clearly beyond your system hardware is also, IMHO, generally an invalid excuse.

      A lot of piracy is in the form of downloading something so the play is better, even when you have bought the game.

      No, it's not. CRACKING games is. I've personally cracked many games I've owned legally. This is not the same as downloading the ISO.

    31. Re:I prefer this idea: by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      If games really sucked so much, you wouldn't even be interested in pirating them!

      You don't know the game sucks until you've played it. That's also why movies like Indiana Jones 4 make hundreds of millions of dollars.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    32. Re:I prefer this idea: by Mistshadow2k4 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's what they all say. They somehow think if they convince people they're only "trying" it out then somehow they aren't scumbags.

      You're not only an troll who is probably bemoaning the fact that the crummy game company he works for isn't able to screw people over as much they used to, but you're also WRONG. I have done exactly that more times than I can count. Demos are all too often betas that have a habit of screwing up my OS installation, so I avoid them like the plague they are. But I have many times downloaded a game and then bought it because I liked it.

      And yes, I definitely do download cd cracks -- to hell with the game companies, I'm not going to buy another copy of your game because you used DRM to make sure I always had to have the cd in the drive, thus insuring that it would get scratched from use and I would need another copy just finish the game. Everybody knows that this is what needing the cd in the drive is for and that's why so few people have no sympathy for the game companies. They are trying to rip you off. So why should we care that they're getting ripped off too? I sure don't.

      --
      I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
    33. Re:I prefer this idea: by sxmjmae · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have returned lots of opened software. I return it and claim I disagree with the Licensing agreement (which typical states that if you disagree with it you are to return it). If push comes to shove I ask them to read the Licensing prior to opening the box and of course you can NOT use my copy to do that. I have had 100% success rate in returning opened software packages.

      --
      My Sig indicates the end of the comment I posted.
    34. Re:I prefer this idea: by hedwards · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Here's a hint, if you truly can't return the game, you can't reject the EULA, and as such aren't bound by the terms.

      Which means that you'd be able to distribute as you like.

      As a result of that, I'd be willing to bet just about anything that if you call the game producer and inform them that you're rejecting the license, that they'd give you a full refund or tell you how to get a full refund.

      And they'd probably be facing a lawsuit from a AG looking to score consumer protection points if they required you to pay shipping on it.

    35. Re:I prefer this idea: by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Citation please. If you're going to state that back ups is a euphemism for piracy, you're going to have to back that up with something.

      Last I checked, if a copy of most of my software were to go bad or the copy were stolen, I'd have to buy a second copy. I'm not sure theoretically how a company thinks it's entitled to be paid twice because they don't want to allow back ups.

    36. Re:I prefer this idea: by butchcassidy1717 · · Score: 0

      Go to a store and buy a board game. If its sucks take it back. The store normally accepts them with no questions.
      Why should it be different for a console game?

    37. Re:I prefer this idea: by christ,+jesus+H · · Score: 1

      What, you actually believe those no-experience foreign sweat shops with mile-long resumés are going to cut development costs while delivering a superior product ? Ever heard of EA and Activision ? Ever seen them release a top-quality product

      You get what you pay for, that counts for developers too, and really any form of labor. Outsourcing is cheaper certainly, but the reason may be more then simply fat lazy western decadence.

      --
      Ohh spiteful one tell me who to smote and he shall be smolten!
    38. Re:I prefer this idea: by twistedsymphony · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's garbage, if you have a hard drive the game will cache to it. The only thing that no always having a hard drive does is make it so that they have to program the game to work without caching available.

      I've got an acquaintance who was an engine developer for Neversoft (he works for EA now) He explained it to me like this: If(hard drive attached) { cache } else { don't cache }

      Though you don't need a devleoper to explain these concepts.. just time how long it takes for a game to load with the hard drive attached, then time it again with the hard drive removed... I'm sure you'll find that the load screens are usually 3 to 4 times longer without the hard drive.

    39. Re:I prefer this idea: by COMON$ · · Score: 1

      One of the problems is, the games are much more complicated, code wise than they used to be. Hell even Warcraft 3 which is a rather simple game when compared to other games released at the same time was around 3-5 years late. WoW has been pretty good so far, but again the gameplay is very simple in comparison to other RPGs so they get to focus on Bandwith problems.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    40. Re:I prefer this idea: by falcon9x · · Score: 1

      I'd like to post something in reply to your comment that I posted a bit ago:


      Where are the games of yore?
      That captured you in an experience like never before,
      and when completed, left you wanting for more?

      Used to be that in box was a map made of cloth.
      Nowadays when opened, out of the box comes a moth.

      In a game like Command & Conquer, even the installation was a treat.
      But now its all boring wizards. I guess the programmers just aren't that 1337.

      Where are the games that are deep, like Zork and Chrono Trigger?
      Now they all seem to be shallow and simple, but they are a lot bigger.

      I loved playing with friends, in games like System Shock 2 (with patch)
      But now its all against friends, seems like there's only deathmatch.

      These games of old came with books that were a joy to read.
      Now they won't even print it, they just put it on the CD.

      The graphics weren't great, but they had a great story and they were immersive.
      Nowadays you have to do it yourself for games that have multiplayer that's massive.

      I want to go back to Monkey Island or command X-COM to save us from alien attacks.
      And I'd like to thank Telltale Games for the fun revival of Sam and Max.

      Oh how I yearn for the games of yore
      That captured you in an experience like never before,
      and when completed, left you wanting for more?

      http://9xrnet.com/blog_gaming/where_are_the_games_of_yore


      Now one of the replies to this was that a "Games of Yore" mindset is the same thing as a "Back in my day" mindset. What I find curious is that people apply that to games very easily, but not to movies as much. How many people here can talk about classic movies such as "Twelve Angry Men (Henry Fonda)" or "Casablanca" or "The Sound of Music" or something similar, and say that they don't make movies like that anymore, and not be called an old fogie? I'm 24, and I've sought out those old movies, and they are GOOD. Much better than most of the crap nowadays. Just like the games. Arguably, Zork and such are before my time, but I sought them out, and they are GOOD. Much better than the games that come out nowadays. Very curious thing (at least to me).

    41. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      hit and miss? is that like a Schroedinger's Game? or a Quantum Game?

      Now, hit OR miss games *I* could understand not liking...

    42. Re:I prefer this idea: by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      Because fraud was a HUGE problem? Honestly, I think consumers blew it with game returns, and we have nobody to blame but ourselves. I remember the days when stores *did* take games back, even if you just plain didn't like them.

      Of course, as soon as CD burners came down in price, the stores were getting gutted. I personally knew many (fellow immature middle schoolers) who would buy games, burn 'em, and return 'em, and gloat to everyone about how smart they were.

      Needless to say, pretty soon stores stopped accepting game returns, and this is the way it has stayed. You will notice that stores will gladly accept EXCHANGES, precisely because it allows to replace defective product without opening back up the burn-and-return loophole.

      This is part of why I have no tolerance for pirate bullshit. Sure, if you want to pirate a game, go out ahead and do it, but don't act like you have some God-given right to rip people off.

    43. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      hit and miss ? Is that like run and stand still ?

    44. Re:I prefer this idea: by Inner_Child · · Score: 1, Informative

      I don't think you're quite getting it. The "stage after the demo" would be the first stage in the full game that is not in the demo. Playing the demo, these problems will not show up.

      --
      Today is red jello day - all workers must eat all of their red jello. Failure to comply will result in five demerits.
    45. Re:I prefer this idea: by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      You know the game sucks if you've bothered to read some reviews, or even visit metacritic. Most sites these days even allow *users* to review games. Seriously, why are people pretending that a game is a black box that cannot be peered into until you bring it home?

    46. Re:I prefer this idea: by tehbunneh · · Score: 1

      Yeah. But the problem is the reviews are often overrating the games. I seem to have much higher standards than most of the reviewers, because most of the games in the 80%-90% get a "doesn't suck" from me, some get a "sucks" (Oblivion comes to mind, so does Neverwinter Nights; and yes i do like RPG-s). My recent encounter is with Mass Effect. It didn't suck, but all the things the reviews promised: open ended gameplay, ethical decisions, clever writing, just wasn't there. All I got was a story and game structure which didn't seem more complex than that which i saw in Baldur's Gate 2, even the story followed some of the same paths(a Bioware game also). The only thing what they seem to have improved is graphics and it doesn't even seem to have a point.

      At least to me, graphics don't matter. Id rather they used a similar system to WoW. The graphics don't have to be top-notch but they should be distinctive and easy on the eyes.

      So, please, game developers. More development of gameplay and story and less focusing on graphics. Eye-candy is worthless without a reason to watch( unless it's less than five minutes). It's unfair to your customers that a 10 year old game like Fallout 2 has more depth than games nowadays.

      Or if they insist on having latest and greatest graphics, why not develop a solid engine and tools and start making an episodic game. Seems to me that if the game clicks with the gamers then the few times a person plays it is not enough and he/she wants to see the story develop a bit(or a lot) more.

    47. Re:I prefer this idea: by Evanisincontrol · · Score: 1

      No, the GP is correct, if they don't care enough to make the demo work right, even if it is after the playable part, why on earth would you trust them to not do a shoddy job with the full product?

      No, the GP (my GGP) is not correct, and neither are you. You are both having a problem with the phrase "stage after the demo". That phrase is referring to a point in the full game happening chronologically after the demo. In other words, you play the demo from point A to point B and everything works great. You buy the full game, play from point A to point B, everything works great, and then some time after point B, the game crashes.

      The original point of this side-thread was that the demo for a game would run flawlessly, and that the "stage after the demo" would crash. That point is still valid.

    48. Re:I prefer this idea: by Denial93 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When I worked in a games company, I was told matter-of-factly that 80% of games sold are played for less than 30 minutes, and 80% customer satisfaction was alright. By that logic, a lot more effort was put in the first level compared to the last. Playtesters made sure the game was finishable, but everyone involved knew it started to get tedious after the first few hours. I scripted a couple of cutscenes very late in the game that I was told less than a percent of players would ever see. I still did them as best I could, but I wouldn't be surprised if others were less motivated...

    49. Re:I prefer this idea: by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      Really? I personally wish more PC game companies put out genuinely representative demos, and then there's the fact that you essentially can't rent PC games (honestly surprised Steam doesn't devise some sort of timelocked release to allow "rentals"). Reviews may or may not be a help either (see Black and White, where all reviewers played chapter 1 and nothing else, and chapter 1 was the only really polished part of the game).

    50. Re:I prefer this idea: by bchirhart · · Score: 1

      I gotta agree. I am a former pirate (thief... whatever). And my recent screw-fest was Mass-Effect. I didn't have the issues that others had with the DRM. I found that if you just waited about 5 seconds on the launch screen, it would take you right in. If I clicked on "Play Game" any soonedr than that, I'd get the ambigious error 6000. BUT - sorry for the side track... I think that DRM is the way to go. IMHO Steam has the best model. If you look at the reasons people say they pirate: 1 - I don't want to use the CD - DRM fixes that. 2 - I don't want to pay for a crap game. Don't buy anything you have not played as a demo. 3 - I want to install on multiple PC's in my house. Again, DRM could help you here. 4 - The games are too expensive... this one requires faith. If the price is that high due to piracy, then we should see the price of pirate free games come down. Portal and TF2 are excellent examples of great, pirate free games for $19.00. It is one of the few occations you don't wish you had some vasoline before purchasing.

    51. Re:I prefer this idea: by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Right, so if I reject the GPL I can distribute my J-Hat(tm) Linux without the code or attributions.

      Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    52. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Day of the Tentacle, anyone ?

      ZOMG! Day of the Tentacle! Punch the clown again!

    53. Re:I prefer this idea: by BPPG · · Score: 4, Funny

      Schrodinger's Cat Baseball. Although it still doesn't work quite right when it's out of the box.

      --
      What's the value of information that you don't know?
    54. Re:I prefer this idea: by Jasonjk74 · · Score: 1

      Most Pirates I have heard about download it becasue they aren't sure about it

      Yeah, that's what they all say. They somehow think if they convince people they're only "trying" it out then somehow they aren't scumbags.

      The truth of the matter, of course: they "try" it right till the end, or whatever point they don't feel like playing it anymore. It's just as much bullshit as the "backups" euphemism.

      Exactly. It reminds me of the same thing they try to say about stealing mp3s, "if I like it I'll go out and buy the album" or "if I like it I'll graciously and magnanimously go see the band", etc. I also like your sig about the GNU scene. I'm sure that'll get me branded as flamebait now!

    55. Re:I prefer this idea: by Danse · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here's a hint, if you truly can't return the game, you can't reject the EULA, and as such aren't bound by the terms.

      Which means that you'd be able to distribute as you like.

      What are you smoking? The EULA doesn't take away the right to distribute, copyright law does. That is in effect whether you agree to the EULA or not, so no, you could not distribute the game if you refuse the EULA. You're stuck with a box of discs that are essentially worthless unless you can sell them to someone else. Of course if it was an online game or application, then that person would be stupid to buy the opened box b/c you could have already gotten the CD Key from it and they would not be able to use it online. Of course sites like Ebay will probably shoot down your auction of it too. Sucks to be a software consumer these days.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    56. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Are you referring to games in general, or Mass Effect in particular? The GP was referring to Mass Effect in particular, which was widely criticized because it does NOT do caching, even on consoles that do have a hard drive attached.

      Believe me, I know. I have a nice big hard drive, and I've experienced the load times.

    57. Re:I prefer this idea: by MerrickStar · · Score: 1

      Better yet, if a game is beatable in 7 days or less by your average or even somewhat above average gamer, it isn't worth the $50+ you had to shell out for it.

      I've played games that I beat in well under 7 days, playing casually, often well after they'd hit the $10 "please take this game away" bin. I'd have been pissed if I'd payed full retail for any of them, and I'm sure a lot of people were.

    58. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The "no return if opened" policy"

      The very last game I ever bought for Windows before I switched to Linux introduced me to this situation. I think it was "Messiah", and it didn't work, even after I installed the patches. I simply sat down on the floor in front of the counter and said I was not moving until my money was refunded. A *very* nervous store manager eventually accepted my ultimatum, after interrogating me to see if I was a "hacker". His concern was that I would load a virus on a game and return it for unsuspecting customers to buy. Guy acted like he was negotiating with a terrorist!

    59. Re:I prefer this idea: by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Blizzard always releases late. People understand them. Why?

      Having shipped & worked on a few titles the answer is simple:

      Because no one remembers if a bad game ships on time, but if a good game is late, no one will really care _too_ much. In order to do this, you need:

      1. Money, to "buy" you the time to polish.
      2. Faith in your good team to produce a great product.

      Most game studios are short on both.

      Blizzard is not innovative -- they just copy what _works. BUT, they DO put a ton of work into UI and balancing. Wow would not be anyway popular as it is without the mods. (They implemented this lesson perfectly from the FPS scene: Quake, Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, etc.)

      > Why is it that so FEW companies actually put out workable, GOOD products?

      For a few reasons...

      - Because of the percieved ROI, and short-term cost. Management & Publishers freak out if you tell them "You want to extend a game's development schedule by another year?! We can't afford that!" Partly they are right. Someday they will realize "Can you afford _not to_!"

      - Good Design is _hard_. Even popular games, such as the wow designers, don't have a fucking clue about something as basic as 'dead time.' (They are getting MUCH better about this Thx God.) The rule is simple: If the player is _bored_, you, the game maker fucked up, but Coders, Designers, and Management don't understand this or over-rule this. Most Game Developers are at the whim of the publisher, and publishers don't want to pay r&d to find "a solution", when the existing system "is good enough."

      - Herd mentality. Easier to produce something that everyone is familiar with, then to approach things in a different way. To their defense, just because you know what you shouldn't do, doesn't imply that you know what you _should_ do. To do things "right" takes time and money, something in short supply in this biz.

      - The most innovative games are not rewarded financially. The consumers continue to buy this year's crap that has prettier graphics. Ico should of sold millions, instead everyone is raving about yet {insert game of this year.} i.e. Halo, CoD, GTA4. (Not saying those are bad games. They are half-decent games. Everyone focuses on the latest sequelitis because really _good_ games are out in the _fringe_ of people's comfort zone.)

      - People don't want to pay for "Quality", because they don't value it. This problem, effects all industries. Some would call it the "Wal-Mart syndrome"

      Cheers

    60. Re:I prefer this idea: by Surt · · Score: 5, Informative

      Having worked for blizzard, I can assure you we shipped at least diablo, diablo II, starcraft, broodwar, lord of destruction, warcraft III, frozen throne, and wow with lots of software bugs.

      Not many fatal bugs, but plenty of bugs. I personally fixed about 300 non play balance bugs that went into various patches.

      Bugs are unavoidable in large software projects. Avoiding serious bugs that will make your customers unhappy is mostly about devoting sufficient testing resources to finding that class of bugs before shipping, and planning for extended work hours right after release to quickly fix the most serious bugs that escaped your testing.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    61. Re:I prefer this idea: by fotbr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most of the people I know that pirate PC games end up buying the game a few days later if they like it, or dumping it if they don't. These are the same people that rent console games from blockbuster and then buy copies if they like it after the weekend.

      If you could return PC games, or rent them, their piracy would stop.

      Myself, I just wait for someone else to buy it, and then play it at their place, and buy it if I like it, since it isn't worth the time and effort to locate a working pirated version and download it (and yes, I know it isn't hard at all, it just isn't worth my time). Likewise, I rent console games or borrow them from friends before I buy them.

      We have plenty of disposable income, and don't mind spending it on gaming. We just don't like to throw it away on a game we can't return when we find out it is junk. Which might be why we have disposable income and aren't broke.

      Of course, the people I speak of are in their late 20s through early 40s - not high-school and college aged kids, which I suspect is the source of the majority of "true" pirating.

    62. Re:I prefer this idea: by Machtyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You know, that's interesting. I downloaded the completely free Radiohead album that came out recently. I didn't like it, I deleted it.

      Ditto on games. I will try them and buy it if I like it.

      CD cracks are a completely different issue. I do NOT want to be bothered to search my huge collection of CDs, then find out the blasted thing is scratched. Not only that, I've only got so many 5.25" slots for CD drives. I have two slots, but I could, in a given week, play about 7 different games. Currently, I'm working through Oblivion, Civilization IV (with some friends), Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter 2 (with some friends), Diablo II (III's coming out "soon", I hope), TrackMania Nations, Need for Speed: Underground 2. I need to finish Neverwinter Nights (I got the expansion recently), I may reload Fallout at some point. And all of this does not even touch my Valve Software collection. Five of the seven games I just mentioned required the game CD when they were first released. Diablo II, I think, no longer needs it and Fallout is old and the company released a no CD patch themselves. GRAW2 was legally purchased from a website and downloaded. I burned the install files to a disk for archiving purposes, although that was not necessarily the intent of the download.

      Interestingly, Civ IV failed to work for one of my friend's legally purchased copy because of the CD checks. I pointed him to a place to acquire the no CD crack. His game works perfectly now. I use a certain set of software to create an image of the disk that will circumvent the disk check and allow ISO reads. So Civ IV, Morrowind, Oblivion, NFS:U2, and NWN all have their image stored somewhere on my hard drive.

      I really like Valve Software's model. They don't care how often I reformat my computer or even what computer I'm on. If they can validate my account, I have access to the game.

    63. Re:I prefer this idea: by Devout_IPUite · · Score: 1

      You can however hack it if you refuse the EULA.

    64. Re:I prefer this idea: by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Apparently, MS doesn't allow caching or optional HDD installs (or actively resists it). The games have to play the same whether the console has a hard drive or not. Otherwise games like Oblivion and Mass Effect would almost certainly have cached (and you wouldn't get all those damn elevator rides in Mass Effect and graphics pop-in in both). And they also supposedly killed Rockstar's attempt to allow for an optional hard drive install of GTA IV on the 360, similar to the PS3 (early on Rockstar said they would have it, then suddenly they didn't and were mum on why).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    65. Re:I prefer this idea: by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Why is it that so FEW companies actually put out workable, GOOD products?

      Because business graduates are retarded. They approach gaming from the perspective of business rather than gaming - the gaming is secondary to the business (in their tiny minds) - and as with everything else, they fuck it up for this very reason.

    66. Re:I prefer this idea: by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Which is nice in theory, but then Microsoft went ahead to release a 360 without a hard drive, meaning that Mass Effect had to have those horrible elevator because it couldn't rely on pre-caching.

      To add insult to injury, my 360 elite has a 120GB HD and games don't even fscking use it..!

      Preventing piracy > Customer Experience
      Corporate-logic sucks ass.

    67. Re:I prefer this idea: by j_166 · · Score: 1

      "No, the GP (my GGP) is not correct, and neither are you. You are both having a problem with the phrase "stage after the demo". That phrase is referring to a point in the full game happening chronologically after the demo. In other words, you play the demo from point A to point B and everything works great. You buy the full game, play from point A to point B, everything works great, and then some time after point B, the game crashes.

      The original point of this side-thread was that the demo for a game would run flawlessly, and that the "stage after the demo" would crash. That point is still valid."

      Yeah, but the GGP does have a point. You shouldn't buy the game if they screwed up the demo. I know I wouldn't. That is just common sense.

    68. Re:I prefer this idea: by Danse · · Score: 1

      You can however hack it if you refuse the EULA.

      Sure, as long as you're not circumventing any copyright protection.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    69. Re:I prefer this idea: by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's what they all say. They somehow think if they convince people they're only "trying" it out then somehow they aren't scumbags.

      Has it occurred to you that such a scumbag wouldn't give a fuck what you think and so would have no reason to lie? I guess not :)

    70. Re:I prefer this idea: by Hordeking · · Score: 2, Funny

      Citation please. If you're going to state that back ups is a euphemism for piracy, you're going to have to back that up with something.

      Is backing up one's argument also considered piracy, or is it just a euphemism for piracy, or is it actually just a dysphemism for citing one's sources about backing up piracy?

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    71. Re:I prefer this idea: by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "Seriously, why are people pretending that a game is a black box that cannot be peered into until you bring it home?"

      Because reviews are paid for and demos don't necessarily reflect the final product?

      I dunno, I don't play many games let alone pirate them. I do, however, watch a lot of movies. Frankly, I can understand why some would prefer not to pay for them. Trailers are useless. Reviews ... *sigh* let's be frank, if reviews were really working on a wide-scale, there are a lot of 'blockbusters' that would never have enjoyed that level of success.

      Though I agree there's a differentiation with games, I cannot agree that it's as black and white as you are making it out to be. The fact is they're asking you to plunk down $50 or $60 for something that you really don't know will be worth your time. If it isn't, tough shit, they've got your money and you can't return it. Seriously, it's an "Open your mouth and close your eyes!" business model. Some people's behaviour really isn't all that surprising. T'is a pity they don't just allow returns. Ask anybody who's purchased Superman 64.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    72. Re:I prefer this idea: by descil · · Score: 1

      Hehe.  The author of this article is one David Perry... here are the games he's produced:

      http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025191.html

      All derivative crap, except Earthworm Jim. Which they made a sequel of. So they even made THAT derivative crap.

      None of his games were selling (because they're all derivative crap, and people like originals, novelty HELLO), so he made Earthworm Jim 2. Oh man, this cracks me up :D Yes, he should make free games - because nobody should ever have to pay for such drivel!

    73. Re:I prefer this idea: by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      It's not that so few companies actually put out workable, good products. The PC is a near zero-entry cost platform to development games on. Computer gaming doesn't share the barriers that console and arcade gaming has. So, if it *seems* like there are so few good PC games, it's only because one hasn't stepped back to look at the vast amount of games there are, but is instead focusing on the biggest titles in the trendiest genres.

      I agree, games don't need to be free. I'll go one step further and say respectfully that David Perry is wrong in the general sense. Some will be free, many will not. He's really talking particularly about a specific segment of the game population: casual gamers. This won't apply to game enthusiasts who will buy their games.

    74. Re:I prefer this idea: by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      Had it not been for that pirated copy of the original Warcraft, I would never have bought the 2nd and 3rd installments.

      Are you sure you weren't playing the demo of Warcraft? Cause when one of my old college mates handed me the installation diskettes for the Warcraft demo, I uploaded it everywhere I could. I loved that game, and I became a Blizzard devotee. Demos work. And I would like to see more PC game developers release demos. There are many demos out there for sure, but in my eyes, no where near as many as back in the days of a young Apogee and Id.

    75. Re:I prefer this idea: by Ihmhi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've never asked for a movie ticket refund because the movie sucked, so why would you expect to refund a game if it sucks?

      Actually, if you leave during the first 15-20 minutes and tell the manager "The Movie sucks, I'd like a refund" they will generally oblige you.

      Source: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/yourmoney/11349201.html

      Do you honestly think that if more people knew they could get refunds by leaving in the first 15-20 minutes of the movie, they would just say "fuck it, nothing I can do now!"?

    76. Re:I prefer this idea: by deweyhewson · · Score: 1

      I'll admit I paused after "ID" and had to google it. Only when I saw it as "id" did I recognize the company. Yeah...I just got home from a 10-hour workday...

    77. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anguirel · · Score: 1

      HDD installs on 360 are disallowed explicitly by Microsoft's requirements. Caching is allowed but generally works as post-caching (so going back to a previous area loads more quickly) rather than pre-caching. Not all games actually bother to cache, since they still need to reduce their load times to a fixed time value even without the HDD present.

      --
      ~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
      QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
    78. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 3, Funny

      I agree that the "no return if opened" policy is hurting consumers

      I used to tend to steam my PC software open when possible. Not really steam, just get the glue weakened and soft so it'd peel off. Open, install, play, beat in like 4 hours... close back up and return. A game needs to take a week :(

      Console games shrink wrap so this is a non-option.

    79. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You're not only an troll who is probably bemoaning the fact that the crummy game company he works for isn't able to screw people over as much they used to

      See, as long as he's employed there, it's not his problem. He'd have to be an executive to care that much, or philosophically entwined. He might not be philosophically entwined even if he were head of marketing; hell, the marketing guys would probably say, "Hmm, why is this happening? Let's examine it for market clues to try to target these folks... oh, our game is TOO expensive!" and then promptly consider a lower, longer lasting initial price to get a lower tier before they pirate (i.e. $40 instead of $60, but for 8 months instead of 3 before the MSRP step down).

    80. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 0

      I really like Valve Software's model. They don't care how often I reformat my computer or even what computer I'm on. If they can validate my account, I have access to the game.

      See, it's a compromise here. Sure, you need to be online, it's inconvenient, it's cruddy a bit has some problems...

      So your internet's out and you can't play. Damn. That's a problem. It's less of a problem than "You have activated with this code [123] times already please call support" or "your video card changed, please enter a new validation code" or "you're logged in as a different user, only one user Windows systems exist!" or "Oh the CD is scratched, buy again, too bad" or "Our validation software just doesn't work under a non-Administrator account, please log in as root so we can install a rootkit driver" or......

      You get the idea. You've tried to validate a person, instead of a set of abstract conditions about an environment. BETTER.

    81. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      We have plenty of disposable income, and don't mind spending it on gaming. We just don't like to throw it away on a game we can't return when we find out it is junk. Which might be why we have disposable income and aren't broke.

      This is why I can afford a $35000 Mustang GT Premium with all the frilly options (Shaker 1000 radio, not GPS crap) on a relatively low salary and STILL make my savings account grow by $1000 a month!

    82. Re:I prefer this idea: by CycoChuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's just as much bullshit as the "backups" euphemism.

      I legibly backup my discs be it games, software, or DVDs and am glad I do it. I had a house fire a few years back and would of lost thousands if it wasn't for my off-site backups. Sure you could so that insurance would replace it, but have you ever added up what it would cost to replace everything in your house and then looked at the cost of the policy needed to replace all that stuff?

      Most Pirates I have heard about download it becasue they aren't sure about it

      Yeah, that's what they all say. They somehow think if they convince people they're only "trying" it out then somehow they aren't scumbags.

      True, there are a lot of people out there that say this and are bold face lying. But there are also a lot of people that pirate to actually see the game and if it would work for them. Demos have a way to show only the best in the game, just as the game boxes only show great scenes (if any) from the game. And you know you can't trust game reviewers because they are bought and paid for by game companies.

      The best analogy that I can come up for why a lot pirate is this: You read about a car in a magazine and decide you would like to check it out. You go to the dealer and find a red one that you really like and want to test drive but the dealer will only let you test drive the blue one. The test drive goes great and they sell you the red one. You get the red one home and the engine falls out. You try to take the red one back but the dealer tells you no returns on cars driven off the lot.

      In car buying, you have some protection under the law from this happening to you, with software you are at the mercy of the company that made it and the store that sold it.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    83. Re:I prefer this idea: by CycoChuck · · Score: 1

      The game companies are also trying to rip us off by making us pay for the game then a monthly fee to play it. If I have to pay to play, then the game should be free to download.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    84. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      This is part of why I have no tolerance for pirate bullshit. Sure, if you want to pirate a game, go out ahead and do it, but don't act like you have some God-given right to rip people off.

      We're not ripping people off, we're ripping corporations off. Don't you understand corporations are evil?

      Many users unconsciously recognize the wrong of refusing to share, so they decide to ignore the licenses and laws, and share programs anyway. But they often feel guilty about doing so. They know that they must break the laws in order to be good neighbors, but they still consider the laws authoritative, and they conclude that being a good neighbor (which they are) is naughty or shameful. That is also a kind of psychosocial harm, but one can escape it by deciding that these licenses and laws have no moral force.

      Now get some pot (banning marijuana is also immoral) and join the hippies.

    85. Re:I prefer this idea: by CycoChuck · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that you can't distribute it. That is violating copyright and has nothing to do with EULA. But I do agree with you on that we should be able to take it back and get a full refund. Otherwise, they have to print the full EULA on the box so that you can read it before purchasing.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    86. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Geeze. I have to disclose that I am indeed a hacker, but where do viruses come into that? You have to ask a "jackass" to get a hold of those.

    87. Re:I prefer this idea: by CycoChuck · · Score: 1

      There is a difference in GPL and EULAs in games. The GPL terms are easy to look up before downloading, most EULAs are either printed on paper in the game box or displayed on screen when you install. Either way, you end up spending money only to find that you might not agree with the EULA and end up with software you can't return.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    88. Re:I prefer this idea: by CycoChuck · · Score: 1

      Depends where you live. In the US, the company will probably cry DMCA and have the feds knocking down your door.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    89. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      - The most innovative games are not rewarded financially. The consumers continue to buy this year's crap that has prettier graphics.

      And then came the Wii, but the PS3 had better graphics.

      And the PS3 failed hard. Wii has the market.

      The thing with Wii is all the CRAP games on Wii are still somehow fun... and that's the measuring stick you need to use. Does this game feel unpolished? A little, maybe.. not sure why. Do I care? Not really, I'm too busy enjoying it.

    90. Re:I prefer this idea: by CycoChuck · · Score: 1

      Professional game reviews are bought and paid for by game companies. Review sites that let users submit des not give me any clear idea if I would like the game because the are all other people's opinions. You might have the opinion that review sites are great buying guides while others might have the opinion that review sites are only places where sheep repeat what the first sheep said.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    91. Re:I prefer this idea: by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Surviving as a business requires continuous SHORT TERM GAINS, not long term. You need to make yourself RELEVANT somehow. Starting a business relies entirely on doing this quickly and cheaply.

      And that's where it ends. The point of long-term sustainability isn't handled in the short run because it costs; but, what the MBAs don't quite realize (and they should, TRUE business professionals get it) is that your long-term excellence ensures customer loyalty without lock-in, which means you have something that pushes immediate profits at a later date.

      You wake up 2 years later and your profits are bigger than they would be if you were pushing another ball of crap out the door; you're working on something to get you some small short-term profits and some medium sized long-term profits on a large amount of short-term investment, which in the future will again turn into your sustaining cash flow.

      If you make a mistake, this fails. If you can't afford to make a FEW mistakes at once, you fail anyway; your business NEEDS to be able to take a hit and then COME OUT AND SAY YOU FUCKED UP, TWICE, but still have ANOTHER product people love and do still trust, and more on the way.

    92. Re:I prefer this idea: by brkello · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All you are doing is justifying your illegal actions (as is popular on this site). Don't get me wrong, I have pirated in the past so it isn't like I am sitting on some moral high horse. So feel free to pirate all you want, just don't come on here and tell me it is good for the game companies. It isn't. It is the people like you and the people that pirate everything that makes DRM exist.

      If you don't want to get stuck with a bad game, find a reviewer that has similar tastes and stick with what they recommend. Demos aren't always as bad as you say. Word of mouth and watching posts on Slashdot isn't bad either. There are plenty of alternatives to pirating now. So pirate all you want, but don't try to make it seem like you are doing a good thing.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    93. Re:I prefer this idea: by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      But "try before you buy" doesn't work in this case. To use the slashdot standard car anaolgy,if I test drive a car I'll tell at the first red light if the brakes don't work. The one level that they put out on demos is often the one that has spent the most time being play and bug tested. Hell,I'll give a few examples from my own purchases.

      S.I.N. episodes: bought the game and never could get past a fatal error in a conversation. Even the patch did nothing on my rig. So that was money down the tubes. Vampire:Bloodlines:OMFG! How many bugs CAN you release in a game and still call it a finished product! It took me a good year to play that stupid thing because I would get a fatal bug and have to wait until a fan came up with a work around or a patch to fix it. I could probably come up with a lot more if I walked over to me game CD case and started going through it,but those I remember off the top of my head. And that of course doesn't count the games I had to wait until a crack came out so I could play what I bought as that lousy Starforce slowed my machine to a crawl,and SecurRom would cause all sorts of weird bugs with my machine.

      So if you want to have us not be able to return sh*tty games,then WE should get to pick the one level we get to demo. Then they can't spend all their time making sure the demo level works while the rest of it crashes every other minute. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    94. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but the GGP does have a point. You shouldn't buy the game if they screwed up the demo. I know I wouldn't. That is just common sense.

      There is nothing wrong with the demo! The demo is fine! Everything in the demo works great, and then something in the full game AFTER the demo breaks! How is no one understanding something this simple?

    95. Re:I prefer this idea: by The_Quinn · · Score: 1

      I would still be willing to BUY games if they would stop rehashing half witted half finished games

      If the games suck so bad - why are you stealing them?

    96. Re:I prefer this idea: by benhattman · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you guys noticed, but most games have demo versions which you can freely download on the internet and play through a level or small sequence of the game.

      I find this to be a perfect compromise, because I don't even have to actually hoof it to the store to buy/return a bad game. I can figure out it's bad from the comfort of home.

    97. Re:I prefer this idea: by Machtyn · · Score: 1
      I agree with your post and sentiment.

      You get the idea. You've tried to validate a person, instead of a set of abstract conditions about an environment. BETTER.

      To point about needing an Internet connection. Most Valve games I play now need an Internet connection. The games my wife plays (Popcap games) she doesn't... only to validate the account.

      Given all of that, there is yet another, however unlikely, problem. Suppose Valve Software goes under, the purchasing company then decides the model sucks and does away with all the authentication servers... Sucks to be a product owner. Again, though, as you say... better than environmental hack checks.

    98. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well EA released NFS3 which I find very good and NFS4 is just the best racing game ever, imo ofc :)

      Bumpy road from there though.

    99. Re:I prefer this idea: by Lordnerdzrool · · Score: 1

      You are ripping people off: the paying customers who now are stuck with crappy rootkits because you wanted to steal a game and rebrand it as "being a good neighbor".

      Ultimately, the 40 or so artists and programmers that spent well over 6-8 months, even up to 1-2 years for certain games, producing the game you want to steal will have to feed their family. You aren't helping that. You are being a bad neighbor. Yes, you cut into corporate profits. You also cut directly into the programmers and artists' paychecks. Corporations do at least one good thing: they employ people. They are unemployed if you rip the corporation off.

      And I find it quite stupid that you justify your stealing with gnu principles which in no way advocates stealing non-free software. Also realize that there is a difference between freedom and free beer. Would you pirate an open source game if it happened to not be free as in beer? What about "helping your neighbor"?

      Also, keep in mind that was written in 1992. A massive amount of changes have occurred even in proprietary software that allow common users to change almost any aspect of the software they are working with via mods of some kind. Specifically in the gaming industry, the one you are attacking where it is hard to think of a game that doesn't let you modify parts of the engine or UI. Civilization 4, Half-life 2, The Sims 1 & 2, Grand Theft Auto (as we all know), Elder Scrolls III and IV, and I could probably go on forever as almost all games have some management system for it, some not as well documented as others. Turns out it doesn't necessarily need to be entirely open source to allow users to modify almost anything they want in the game. It just sometimes needs to document what they can't see and allow users to over-ride them.

      And before the gnu-squad arrests me for suggesting that non-free software can be more free than free ones: I'm not doing that. What I am saying though is that non-free software is different than it was when that was originally written, and non-free software, in the gaming industry in particular, actually allows users to modify the games quite seamlessly as is the case for games like in the Elder Scrolls series, where it still is closed source, but they give you all the tools you need to make entire overhaul modifications. Of course, this wouldn't help someone having a driver issue causing the game not to run, I realize that. They could however help low FPS computers if overhaul modifications lowered the resolutions of everything to an even lower state than the lowest settings, which is technically possible with non-free software such as Oblivion.

    100. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Zork was text based. If you liked that, may I suggest you google Dragon Realms, its a small text MUD/MMORPG. Probably the best one I ever played. I think the Ultima online folks got some ideas from them for skill growth, but didn't do half as good a job on the skill system. You may like it. I thought it was great, but I needed to expend my time on a few other things so I shut down my account :)

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    101. Re:I prefer this idea: by Trapick · · Score: 1

      It does half the time. You just can't tell until you open it.

    102. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Ever play a little "fringe" game called Tachyon: The Fringe? Very good game. Probably one of my all time favorite space shooters right up there with Privateer 2.

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    103. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Take Arcanum. Arcanum took me 3 rebuilds of my system to find a configuration that would not crash outright for some strange reason. How many "gamers" are also system builders and can tell when a crash is caused by memory or driver error or have the resources (read: spare hardware) to test until they find out what causes the problem with a certain game? How many had the same or similar configs as I did which chose not to work ONLY on Arcanum?

      You obviously also did not play Gothic 3. If Diablo II and the others shipped with 300+ bugs you fixed, tell me then... which ones stopped the game from being A) playable B) finishable C) fun?

      Gothic 3 is the prime example of a superb storyline (Gothic 1 and 2) and a superb universe (Gothic 1 and 2) with superb everything. In Gothic 3, they threw it all down the drain releasing an incomplete, fully buggy game. I mean BUGGY. Sure it was huge... but that isn't what bothered me. What bothered me is that the game CRASHED A LOT. Quests were finishable, things were doable. The problem was elsewhere entirely. See, the game required 3 years worth of patches to be playable... finishable, etc. Playbalance was off too (they only did half animations for a lot of animals which resulted in instant stunlock/death if the player was hit by one. Given how well implemented the deadly animals were in 1 and 2 (wolves didn't have half animation, they were just damn tough and hit damn hard. In 3, they just slaughter you without a chance to fight back, or flee or anything.

      Very disappointing. Played my way through Doom 1 2 3, Quake 1 2 3 4, Heretic 1 2, Hexen 1 2, Diablo 1 2, Warcraft 1 2 3... Gothic 1 and 2 NO PROBLEMS... games were FUN, and Finishable. THAT is the key word. That Blizzard also hired you to make sure that their games were polished is a good idea. Regardless their corporate politics, they should release a polished, working product. Its good manners and keeps people like me buying instead of finding better things to do, and people a little less like me, buying instead of pirating.

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    104. Re:I prefer this idea: by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 1

      All you are doing is justifying your illegal actions (as is popular on this site). Don't get me wrong, I have pirated in the past so it isn't like I am sitting on some moral high horse. So feel free to pirate all you want, just don't come on here and tell me it is good for the game companies. It isn't. It is the people like you and the people that pirate everything that makes DRM exist.

      OK, I am in a position to speak, because I have never 'pirated' anything. And what people have said above is true: the problem is not people making unauthorised copies, the problem is bad product. The result is that I buy - and play - very few games. I only buy after reading a lot of good reviews, and I tend not to trust 'industry' reviews, only user reviews. I buy games by Sid Meier's gang, because I know from experience they're good value; I buy games from Bioware, same reason; and currently I'm playing CD Projekt Red's The Witcher, which I've enjoyed tremendously, because it was promoted by Bioware.

      But I wouldn't even know about Bioware if they hadn't released Neverwinter Nights for Linux - I bought it because I want to support companies releasing stuff for Linux, and having bought it, I played it...

      In my opinion, to succeed games companies don't need 'digital rights management'. They don't need 'protected' disks. They don't need anti-piracy measures. They need a reputation for producing quality games, which consumers trust. And, with a few honourable exceptions, that's exactly what they don't have.

      Final thought, game industry. Would you rather most consumers were like me, never pirate anything but buy on average two games a year, or like most people in this discussion, pirate lots but actually pay for five or six a year?

      --
      I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    105. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Heh, and the problem with most MBA's is that what.... yes, they haven't ever started a business from ground level up. All they learned is how to operate a huge business and operate in an existing bureaucracy. Starting a business from the ground up requires different skills than those of an MBA. MBA's are good for liquidating the assets of a business and turning a viable long term idea into a quick cash cow.

      Kind of reminds me of our current president in the USA, doesn't it? He's an MBA too. I'd LOL this again, if I wasn't already laughing out loud.

      The problem, as with medicine, is that there's too many business graduates and not enough actual BUSINESS MEN.

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    106. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Are you sure you read the ENTIRE comment?

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    107. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      My mistake. Can't edit posts, figured most would get it :)

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    108. Re:I prefer this idea: by I+cant+believe+its+n · · Score: 1

      There are 11 types of people: the good, the bad and the basement dwellers

      --
      She made the willows dance
    109. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Depends on whether you're making movie tie-in shovelware or not, but Valve's game stats make for interesting reading.

      Apparently 48.86% of the people who bought the game made it to the last level. That's pretty damn good.

      http://steampowered.com/status/ep2/ep2_stats.php

    110. Re:I prefer this idea: by nahdude812 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I feel like I've stepped into a Twilight Zone thread, where you say one thing, and people respond as if you said something completely different.

      The original point (now GGGGGGGP or something) was that it's not uncommon for a game's demo to be heavily tested and bug fixed so that it is not representative of the quality and stability of the retail version of the game. You try the demo, exercise as much due diligence as you are able to with it, and you are satisfied with the game's quality. But then when you load up the retail version of the game, you're not able to play it, or the content that wasn't in the demo is buggy and unstable.

      This is not that uncommon, it happens for several reasons:
      1) The demo content is tested substantially more aggressively than the rest of the content for release, because the demo directly affects sales while the rest of it only indirectly.
      2) The demo lacks copy protection, while the retail version has it tightly packed in. Copy protection is the number one thing which is likely to interfere with my ability to play a game, and you can't test that in the demo.

      So the original point was: maybe the demo is great and the retail version sucks. Nobody is claiming that the demo sucked and you bought the retail version anyway, they're only saying that just because the demo doesn't suck doesn't mean the retail version doesn't either.

    111. Re:I prefer this idea: by Sethus · · Score: 1

      Yea! I can point out a bug right now from all those games: YOU STOLE MY SOUL!

      --
      Posting with out proof reading since 2001.
    112. Re:I prefer this idea: by ShadowsHawk · · Score: 1

      I download when there is no demo available. I finally got STALKER working about three months ago after I replaced my entire computer. I never did figure out what the problem was, but the game was completely unplayable.

    113. Re:I prefer this idea: by Evanisincontrol · · Score: 1

      Thank you. I'm so glad that someone knows what I'm talking about. I really thought I was going crazy and forgot how English worked or something. I can sleep again. I owe you a drink.

    114. Re:I prefer this idea: by Hawke666 · · Score: 1

      I think the GP's point was that the lack of assured pre-caching affected the level design (i.e. forced the creation of the elevators as an excuse for the game to sit there for a while and load the next level) -- "couldn't rely on pre-caching", not "couldn't use pre-caching even if it was available"

    115. Re:I prefer this idea: by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Rejecting any license still gives you no legal right to distribute anything. Sorry.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    116. Re:I prefer this idea: by mgiuca · · Score: 1

      Do you ask them to read the License prior to opening every game you buy? Surely it's too late if you've already opened it.

      Also you're supposed to decline the license before you install and play it. How does this help you judge a shitty game? (Unless you play it, then return it and claim you didn't play it - then that's cheating ;))

    117. Re:I prefer this idea: by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

      My theory is that a lot of business minded (not necessarily good people either) look to the "big guy" on top of the computing world... at least in the public's view. That'd be M$. And Microsoft continually release lazy, half-finished, crap. Yeah yeah, sure things are more "complicated" now and it takes longer to get it right... that's part of the argument. But seriously, I think it's mostly a business decision. They figure, why waste time (and money hiring testers) beta testing when we can let the public do it for free. Fuck 'em!

    118. Re:I prefer this idea: by Cornflake917 · · Score: 1

      Final thought, game industry. Would you rather most consumers were like me, never pirate anything but buy on average two games a year, or like most people in this discussion, pirate lots but actually pay for five or six a year?

      Just because you buy less games as a non-pirate doesn't mean it works that way for everyone else. I'm pretty sure a gamers financial status is much more likely to influence the rate of which they buy games then their pirating frequency. It's makes much more sense to me that someone with less money would pirate more AND buy less games. I think that trying to claim the piracy somehow helps the game industry is quite a stretch. I'm not trying to defend companies who create game-crippling DRM that damages the experience for legitimate users. Expecting a company to leave their games at the mercy kids with no money with knowledge of bittorrent, however, is borderline insanity.

    119. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Isn't that ironic? Back in the day they used to do "public beta testing" and "closed door alpha/beta testing". And the irony? Some games spent a year or more in public beta. I still remember Ragnarok Online doing 2 years of public beta testing. I still recall doing the battle net stress test for Diablo II. Warcraft III even ran a beta test and a bnet stress test. Why is it so hard for other people? Some do, some don't. Generally you can tell which games were playtested, even if for free, by the public at large. It also acts as a shareware test for people to enjoy and, well, you know, boast about being 'so cool' to their friends.

      Most of said games end up being fairly polished and mostly free of nasty bugs. Most of the ones that DONT get playtested publically or by "for hire" playtesters, end up incomplete, crashy, or just plain shit. Of course for a public test, the publisher has to be as good and as willing as the developer, as far as I understand it... and if either of them is rushing, it ain't happenin' bub.

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    120. Re:I prefer this idea: by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      Man, Slashdot is full of cynics. There are some bad apples in the gaming press, but overall I find that reviews are pretty honest, and give me a good idea of what to expect in a game. Not to mention almost all major sites now have a "user rating" right next to the review score, where users can comment. BS reviews are knocked right out there, not to mention when you aggregate through a site like metacritic you wipe out biases.

      Reviews ... *sigh* let's be frank, if reviews were really working on a wide-scale, there are a lot of 'blockbusters' that would never have enjoyed that level of success.

      Crappy games are selling because of a combination of good marketing and an ignorant game-buying public, not because reviews overwhelmingly lie. Look at the Sims and its expansion packs - selling like fricking hotcakes, despite being critically panned, or at least "meh"ed. Many games target audiences that simply do not READ reviews.

      The fact is they're asking you to plunk down $50 or $60 for something that you really don't know will be worth your time

      The same way you're asked to plunk down $10-15 to see a movie. Or hell, $200K+ for a house! In both cases you can do your due diligence and research, but there's always the chance that you missed something, and you get screwed with a lemon. Seriously, this is a fact of life, why are people up in arms about this? I don't see people complaining about not being able to view a movie for free to decide if they're going to go to the cinema to see it. We do seem to trust movie reviews a fair bit, or at least word of mouth. How is gaming any different?

      Ask anybody who's purchased Superman 64.

      You mean the game that was critically panned by nearly EVERY critic, quickly became the laughingstock of the gaming press? I have no sympathy for anyone who bought that game - this isn't even a case of the publisher buying out reviewers.

    121. Re:I prefer this idea: by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Man, Slashdot is full of cynics. There are some bad apples in the gaming press, but overall I find that reviews are pretty honest, and give me a good idea of what to expect in a game. Not to mention almost all major sites now have a "user rating" right next to the review score, where users can comment. BS reviews are knocked right out there, not to mention when you aggregate through a site like metacritic you wipe out biases.

      Cynic? I wouldn't say that. I would say, though, that I cannot think of a game critic that matched my tastes enough to take his word for it.

      Crappy games are selling because of a combination of good marketing and an ignorant game-buying public, not because reviews overwhelmingly lie.

      That's not quite what I meant to say. By 'working' I meant: Good reviews were being written AND significant numbers of people are reading and accepting the reviews. I could have clarified that a bit more, my apologies. For whatever reason I'm not in touch with, reviews aren't getting the job done. Maybe it's lack of trust. Maybe nobody cares. Couldn't say. Whatever the reason, though, tastes are subjective, and once you've made that commitment, you're out the money.

      Seriously, this is a fact of life, why are people up in arms about this?

      Because it's a fact of life that shouldn't exist. That's why lemon laws exist. That's why an undisclosed problem can lead to a lawsuit. It's fraud.

      I don't see people complaining about not being able to view a movie for free to decide if they're going to go to the cinema to see it.

      I wasn't suggesting that. Don't confuse my point with being pro-piracy. My point is that the consumers aren't on a level playing ground with the companies making the content, so there's bound to be some not-so-fair-play. As for your comment there, I'm sure you haven't heard that phrase, but I bet you've heard a variant of it: "There's two hours I wish I could get back." That person's out his DVD or ticket purchase money.

      How is gaming any different?

      Are you serious? Okay:
          a.) The cost is higher.
          b.) These days, you can't even get 'finished' games, patches are required to make them work. So even research or a demo won't reveal that.
          c.) Finicky copy restriction. "You can only install this game 3 times..."
          d.) Unforseen hardware related problems. (although, I'll concede, some places will return a game for that.)

      The general point? A movie you either go to or plop into a player and play it. A game, that's far more involved.

      I have no sympathy for anyone who bought that game - this isn't even a case of the publisher buying out reviewers.

      That's a bit cold. It's one thing for a hardcore gamer to take it up the butt on that game. It's another when a lil ol lady decides to buy her grandson a present and knows he likes Superman. Why that game was never classified as 'fraud', I'll never understand. In any event, I understand your lack sympathy, that's fine, but I can easily see it biting you on the butt. You're human. There's no reason to expect you to be an expert on every single product on the market. There's also no realistic reason you can be expected to spend all the time required to research every little thing you plunk cash down on. There are protections in place to prevent you from getting fleeced and they are there for a good reason. Yes, you're protecting stupid people. However, you are a stupid person from time to time.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    122. Re:I prefer this idea: by Surt · · Score: 1

      Among others, there were bugs in some of the installers that did not work with many people's cd rom drives. Hard to play the game when you can't install it.

      Diablo II shipped with a bug that made it impossible in some conditions to kill Diablo, thus unfinishable. We found that 2 days after the gold master had shipped. Broodwar had a mid-game mission that was unpassable if you had made a certain mistake earlier in the game. Fixed in a patch 2 or 3 days after being reported.

      Blizzard does do a much better job than most software houses, but they are not perfect.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    123. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Never said perfect. I said they did a remarkably good job of fixing things.

      The reason I brought up gothic 3 and Arcanum is because both games were COMPLETELY unplayable in their retail phase. I've still got G3, but even with the year later (2 years now?) 1.6 patch, it still occasioanlly crashes out when it runs out of memory and it STILL has some things not properly implemented (armor bonus skills don't seem to work, not sure about poison making skill being learnable, fire magus skill not available to learn, etc). Someday I may finish Gothic 3, Arcanum I can barely get around to, since its arguably unplayable on my rig... and i'm running a Geforce 8 and several gigs of ram on a 32 bit system for gaming purposes (thus no incompatibility in the OS). Do the math. In fact, Arcanum was a big waste of cash IMHO, since the bastards at the store went out of business before I could return it. (I travel a lot... Comp USA was always closed when I got back in town, and then they went out of business in my area.)

      Reminds me of that Warhammer Online having "content pulled to make release date". SSDD... Same Shit Different Day. Speak of the devil, eh?

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    124. Re:I prefer this idea: by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Exactly! It's odd seeing all those developers and publishers blame piracy instead of their own lack of quality and support, not to mention that they invest money in pissing off their remaining paying customers. Some companies (Stardock has often been mentioned here) release PC games without any meaningful copy protection, continue to support their games for years, and their games sell well.

      Well enough to make them a lot of profit, anyway. Whenever I hear about huge multi-million dollar budgets for lame, uninspired and bug-ridden games, I'm really not surprised to see publishers losing money.

    125. Re:I prefer this idea: by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      I remember, speaking of that, a little lame ass company called 3d Realms... they put out this thing called Wolf3d... no advertising, nothing. I found a copy of the first ENTIRE episode... it was "shareware". Other 2 I had to buy or pirate. Bought'em after downloading a copy. Why? Figured such a company should make money and make more good games.

      Ever since then, through 3 Doom games, 4 Quake games, and several "engine" games, I've come to expect that despite little advertising blitz, id (which is what's left of the Apogee/3drealms/iD mix) will always provide a GOOD game. I have yet to have any serious issues. Even in Quake II where I had one of the FEW unsupported soundcards, there was a console workaround IN GAME! No need to wait for a patch. Set primary sound buffer to zero (disabled I presume) and voila, sound doesn't breakup anymore. id spends less time (from the looks of it) on advertising, and more time on actually putting out a GOOD game. Results... good games, each time, every time. Even Quake III with its lack of storyline, still turned out damn good. Why? Solid game, solid gameplay. Every game I've bought from them, even on such rare hardware as the Matrox PowerVR M3d, or the Ensoniq Soundscape (ISA card) or the Turtle Beach 6 speaker sound card, or many other unusual (seemingly not "mainstream" performance gear) I've had little trouble getting their games to work and play flawlessly.

      Yet, other than OTHER people raving, I saw very little advertising blitz for most of their games. Raven Software was even less so, and has turned out pearl upon pearl. Not just playable but well designed games. Quake 4 in fact was raven's game with id's engine (as has always been the case of Raven) and again, as was always the case for Raven, they turned out a pearl. Polished, playable, finishable, and LONG. In fact, that was the joy of Hexen, it was LONG. Same with Hexen 2, regardless of your skill level, the game was long, it wasn't a "pay 50 bucks, finish it in a day or two on the hardest difficulty, and then be upset that it cost you twice as much as dinner and a movie" (back then at least)...

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    126. Re:I prefer this idea: by j_166 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but if the demo didn't work on your PC, why the hell would you spend money for the retail version, knowing full well from the demo that the game sucks?

    127. Re:I prefer this idea: by Denial93 · · Score: 1

      That is because Valve's games tend to be quite short: you can usually finish them on a single weekend. Still they invest more effort in the earlier levels than in the later ones. If you've done some level design or can just roughly estimate polygon counts on the fly, compare the tram drive at the beginning of Half-Life 1 to the bit just before its end boss fight for example.

      It is just common practice. Even Doom 3, which was very good in this department, had less and less cutscenes the further in you got.

    128. Re:I prefer this idea: by StingRay02 · · Score: 1

      But, why would you buy the game, if it's broken? The demo should have given you fair warning. Buyer beware, man.

      </sarcasm>

      I really just wanted to post and say this whole thread managed to take on a Monty Python-esque level of absurdity. If nothing else, I imagine I'm not the only one getting a chuckle out of this.

    129. Re:I prefer this idea: by billcopc · · Score: 1

      The games are too expensive... this one requires faith. If the price is that high due to piracy, then we should see the price of pirate free games come down.

      Faith ? Anyone who still has faith in the game industry is either young or naive. It is a business, they charge whatever the market will bear. The only reason some games are sold at a lower price point, is because they would NOT sell at the higher price.

      Portal is great fun, but it's damned short, buggy and looks dated. If they were charging $60, it wouldn't sell nearly as much. Sure, a handful of do-gooders would snap it up and blog about it, but the rest of us would rather spend the same money on a product that offers more hours of entertainment. Once you beat Portal, it's beat. You can play the challenge levels, but even those will only tide you over for another day or two, and then you're bored again.

      I frankly don't think DRM does much good for the game industry. It does a lot of "good" for the DRM industry, but that's about it. Everything of value gets cracked. Even Mass Effect was blown wide open within a week, despite the modern copy protection. From my point of view as a small-time developer, Bioware wasted a ton of money on SecuROM, a product that failed within a week and probably didn't net them many sales.

      The thing is, it's a freakin' game. It's not the cure for cancer, it's not a stock market projection, it's a simple entertainment product. You can pay $60 to have it now, or wait a few days for a working crack and play it for free. If you really want the game, you'll buy it, but if you're on the fence, you'll probably save your money and wait for it to show up in alt.binaries. To most people, the money matters more than the legality issue, because it is seen as a victimless crime.

      Many people I know think of piracy as an alternative to rental. They try the thing, most of the time it sucks, and they wipe it from their hard drive. A rental would have cost $5.00, but that money still doesn't go to the game developers, it goes to the rental chain. If that game gets rented every night for a whole year, the devs still get only one sale out of it, while the rental chain makes a small fortune off the developers' backs.

      I don't know about you, but I'd rather keep the $5.00 and spend it elsewhere, than give it to some profiteering rental outfit that thrives on overpriced candy and underpaid teenagers. Save up your $5.00 bills until you can buy a good game, you'll be doing the industry more good that way.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    130. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the game that was critically panned by nearly EVERY critic, quickly became the laughingstock of the gaming press? I have no sympathy for anyone who bought that game - this isn't even a case of the publisher buying out reviewers.

      Hey fuk off, I didn't have internet access back then.

    131. Re:I prefer this idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the thing though: Valve won't go under. Okay assuming they do, etc, I'm sure they would release an update that completely removed all the checks and having to log into your account, etc. Make it so you open steam and play a game, no internet required. Would be pirated to hell, but Valve (The owners) wouldn't give a damn cause they just went under. And you can set Steam to Offline mode which lets you play (most) games offline. Though doing it with TF2 isn't gonna help as you can't you know, play anyone.

    132. Re:I prefer this idea: by protektor · · Score: 1

      You forgot that in the bad of every game manual is an address to send the game back along with your receipt for a full refund. This is required under law in most if not all states. Sure it's a pain in the ass but you can send your game back and get your money back.

      I think the main reason for this is the issue of EULAs. If I can't see the EULA until after I open it and try to install and I don't agree with the EULA where does that leave the customer/user? Which is why I think most states require it.

      If that has changed then fork the game companies. They sell me a package, but claim its a license/lease instead, then try to ignore the doctrine of first sale, and then add all kinds of crap to try and limit my rights that the courts have said I have for years, things like fair-use, reverse engineering for inter-operability, etc.

      It's messed up crap like this and the DMCA that makes people want to "pirate", steal, etc from big companies. Treat your customer like crap and don't be suprised when they return the favor.

  21. first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ARRRRRR

  22. Re:Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First!!!!!11!1!!ONEONEELEVEN

    That would be even better if it was first

  23. ...what about making money? by GreatRedShark · · Score: 1

    Ok, I can see that this MIGHT work for MMORPG companies, as they can make money off of subscriptions, or the ones that have tiered accounts (payed accounts have better weapons, etc than free accounts). What about games without much online component, like Bioshock? It was a good game and I didn't mind paying for it. What would such companies do to get money? Sell action figures and t-shirts? Charge for support, the way RedHat makes money supporting a free operating system? I could even see charging nominal amounts for "chapters" of a game (say $3.00 / chapter, and if you don't like the game you just stop buying chapters) - wasn't this how Quake was originally released? ...but FREE? i dunno...

    1. Re:...what about making money? by AnalogyShark · · Score: 1

      What would such companies do to get money? Sell action figures and t-shirts?

      YES!

  24. As well they Should be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And so should music, and so should movies, and so should all information.

    "oh boo hoo but no one will make a living from creating these things if they are free"

    and cops would never make a living if not for criminals. and firefighters would never make a living if not for people's houses burning down. but do you hear firefighters say "i sure am glad people's houses burn down, because that means I have a job!!"

    these days, "making money off information" is based on artificial scarcity and draconian intellectual property laws, which are Bad Things, like criminals and fires.

    1. Re:As well they Should be by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Good luck convincing someone to spend a year and a half making art for a game with no compensation.

    2. Re:As well they Should be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      people do it all the time. people who love art will make art.people who make art FOR MONEY might not, but is that really a big loss? does it matter? should we dwell on what hypothetically might not exist?

      anyway, logically speaking, if my only axiom is "information (art) should be free", then claiming "but then no one will make it" is a fallacious appeal to consequences.

  25. Call it what it is by Mr.Ned · · Score: 5, Informative

    "And if anyone has a favorite replacement term for "piracy," in the context of electronic copyright violation, please suggest it below."

    Umm, a copyright violation? Copyright infringement? Why not just call it what it is instead of bringing in some new word that's going to have a specific connotation?

    1. Re:Call it what it is by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      I prefer "piracy" for people who are profiting from copyright infringement (e.g., duplicating copyrighted works and selling them). Copyright infringement is good for acquiring a duplicate of a copyrighted work against the copyright holder's consent (e.g., downloading music on the interwebs). Copyright violation is appropriate for other violations of copyright law (e.g., making use of GPLed code without following the restrictions of the GPL).

    2. Re:Call it what it is by descil · · Score: 1

      I like your point. .. in the way I like when a sexy model tells me her greatest wish is for world peace. There's a war going on in our languages, like it or not. You can choose to fight or allow yourself to be called a pirate. Or worse, a MAN! lol.

      Personally I like the pirate bay's approach... we'll just change the meaning of pirate instead!

    3. Re:Call it what it is by Snaller · · Score: 1

      What it is is too long for people with small minds. The greed cartels are spinning it one way, someone should engineer a counter spin.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    4. Re:Call it what it is by spitzak · · Score: 1

      I agree "copyright infingement" is the correct term. Or "violating copyright" or if you want a stronger-sounding term.

      "Piracy" should only mean copyright infringement for financial gain (ie they sell the copies). I think the RIAA/etc are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to expand this more evil-sounding term to every copyright violator, instead of their plan of making everybody sound more evil they have instead defused the "pirate" term so that even profiteers sound less evil.

      "Plagiarism" is when you violate copyright and also try to pretend the work is your own or otherwise hide or deny credit to the original creator. Usually not a problem for music/movies, but this does come up when people try to compare GPL violations to this.

    5. Re:Call it what it is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about ... Copyrape?

      Nice, short and precise to the point, closely matching the description of feelings of authors when they are confronted to occurrences of pirate copies of their work.
      I mean, similar to ... the *act*, it is done against "provider's" will ... , "because we can, and you can do squat about it".
      Mind you, "to violate" (a person) is also used as euphemism for "to rape".
      Just like person and its body, an author of a work should have a final say about who is allowed to enjoy it, for whichever reason.

      If you were a developer of a GPL-ed Free Software and you found out that some sleazy company is using your code in their closed source product, how would you feel?
      Well, that is just one example of Copyright Infringement.

  26. Spore Creature Editor by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    If the future of free games means installing DRM crap on our computers, such as SecuROM, then they can keep their "free games". It's only going to become an entry point for companies to install their malware on our computers.

    1. Re:Spore Creature Editor by anonymousbob22 · · Score: 1

      If it's free, why would they bother with a DRM system? I think what you are actually referring to is the adware that would allow such games to be "free" (as in beer).

    2. Re:Spore Creature Editor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the Spore Creature Editor (the free version) installs some securom crap when you install it.

      Besides, it's EA, since when have they done anything logical?

    3. Re:Spore Creature Editor by Vectronic · · Score: 1

      No, he was probably actually thinking of DRM, or at least not just adware... free to download, illegal to modify, free to download provided you give us your name, address, serial number, hair color, preferred deodorant, how many people live in your household, etc... or keyloggers, and the likes to monitor whats installed and how, when and why you use it... stuff that can be sold to advertising agencies...

      Plus, "buddy" applications, like (god damn mother fucking) "Toolbars", or continuing some sort of monopoly "free, but requires [X] application/driver/graphic-card"...etc etc...

      And enough people will go for that, because there are enough game-addicts to support it, those people that just have to have the latest game/demo/update/mod/etc...

      Besides, how long would it be before there was "you can download any game for free from our collection of developers as long as you pay us $9.99 a month"... those already exists, and they would end up creating their own lock-ins, kinda like hollywood and the studios and unions, eventually there's just 3 with hundreds of sub-we-arent-them-studios. Then some "little guy" comes out with a truely free game, and everyone goes "wait, but this doesnt work on PSXii-Box Network, it isnt accepted by SuperGameChatIM++, and can only use half of the controls of my FunMaxController because thats copyright/proprietary/toofuckingcomplicated/no-open API/etc...

    4. Re:Spore Creature Editor by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 1

      It's probably so you can't use the freebie version to crack the paid version.

      --
      "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
    5. Re:Spore Creature Editor by descil · · Score: 1

      SecuROM :D so ez to crack like all the others... Rootkit? No, we obviously replace any rootkits with our own stealthy version when redistributing your content :P game development companies... LOL!

  27. alternative to piracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    liberation

    /reagan

  28. I prefer... by madenglishbloke · · Score: 1

    "Copyright Restoration" - I have certain rights when I purchase a game, which the games companies try to artificially restrict using DRM and other technologies - circumventing those restrictions restore those rights.

  29. Why do they need to be free? by Jellybob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just make them good. I have no problem with paying for my games (I do so for every game I have a copy of), but I'm not going to go out and buy a crap game if I can help it.

    Of course the industry needs to stop crying wolf as well. While sales from brick and morter stores are going down like a brick, a lot of that is being picked up by services like Steam, because Valve seems to have realised that attempting to screw your customers just doesn't work.

    1. Re:Why do they need to be free? by kentrel · · Score: 1

      Making it good won't make any difference. All the best games are the most popular downloads on torrent sites. The better the game, the more likely it is to be downloaded.

    2. Re:Why do they need to be free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While sales from brick and morter stores are going down like a brick, a lot of that is being picked up by services like Steam, because Valve seems to have realised that attempting to screw your customers just doesn't work.

      You had me until you mentioned Steam and Valve not screwing their customers in the same sentence.

      Just one problem with Steam, among many? You can't sell your used game to somebody else, something that's protected with physical copies of games.

      I actually have less of a problem with Blu-ray/DVD-style DRM than I have with services like Steam. The DRM might try and restrict what I do with my movie, but I just play my movies. And it'll probably be broken eventually anyway. Steam restricts what I can do in much more meaningful ways.

    3. Re:Why do they need to be free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, we don't know what you individually think of as 'good'. It ain't the same as other peoples 'good'.

      Second, you may not be able to appreciate 'good'. I remember most of my friends hating 'Elite' as they did not appreciate that there was a whole universe to explore, could not get to grips with controlling a spaceship in three dimensional space, and preferred simple shoot'em'ups.
      Once the culture and ideas of games like Elite became more commonplace, it became less of a leap of imagination to learn to enjoy them. And I do mean 'learn'.

      Third, once you do gain a deep appreciation of an art form (in this case video games), much of the examples with very wide popular appeal start to appear facile and lacking in depth. Generally because they *are* facile, it just took you a long time to realise it.

      I think people do not realise how much they contribute to their own enjoyment of art. It's an active process, you are not an impartial unbiased judge able to calculate the worth of any computer game, it's only as good as your reaction to it, which requires experience....

    4. Re:Why do they need to be free? by Kelz · · Score: 1

      Prime example here: Call of Duty 4. Its in my and the vast majority of reviewers and players opinion an absolutely great game. I really don't think they're crying wolf when you look at the huge amount of torrents going even now, over a year after release. How can people say it doesn't hurt sales? Sure, a percentage of people downloading wouldn't buy it anyway, but MANY of them would were it not available freely.

      While we wrangle over what (if any) type of protection should be used, you can bet that the suits at Activision (owners of Infinity Ward) are taking a good long look at the profitability of releasing these sorts of games only on consoles. PC gaming isn't going to die, but it WILL drive developers (especially smaller unproven ones) away from the platform when they look at all the lost potential revenue.

    5. Re:Why do they need to be free? by kidgenius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's what I think they really need to do. Release free games, but charge for additional content, like outfits, guns, different characters, etc. It's the razors and blades model. You give away one thing, the game (razor), and charge a lot for the blades (add-ons). So you want your guy to have a certain camouflage or costume? It'll cost you $7.99. Want a different gun that is slightly more powerful? That'll be $3.99 please. The more popular/downloaded your game is, the more people that will probably want to spend a couple of bucks to customize it, and you'll make money. Plus, you won't have to worry about all those costs like packaging, shipping, making CDs, etc. Hell, charge people $10 if they want a physical version of the CD, and let everyone else download it. For $10, a bunch of people won't want to deal with the hassle of downloading.

    6. Re:Why do they need to be free? by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 1

      Which means nothing more than mindshare. Those who will pay for games will pay for it, and those who refuse to will continue to pirate. The more the game gets downloaded, the more the game, it's name, and it's developer get known about, meaning more sales in the future. So, all you mean is, the better the game, the more likely it is that people will know about it. You seem to think that, for some reason, having this additional mindshare doesn't mean additional sales. This is, frankly, bullshit.

    7. Re:Why do they need to be free? by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      Did something change, or is Steam suddenly not full of DRM anymore?

    8. Re:Why do they need to be free? by Stellian · · Score: 1

      That will make for a crappy game, IMO.

    9. Re:Why do they need to be free? by descil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've never heard of Steam having DRM. Doesn't make sense, since steam is a method to download content.

      The funniest thing about Steam is, I tried to use it... and ended up with a game that didn't work! Then I went and checked isohunt... oh yeah, there is halflife2... oh look, this version works! Maybe valve should take some coding lessons from the blackhats - or, possibly something else (like they noticed I stole halflife1 and still had it on the pc, hahaha) was going on. They really got owned on that issue though... I've heard several people say they had the same problem :/

    10. Re:Why do they need to be free? by descil · · Score: 1

      Pulling out my real wallet to improve my virtual character is not on my list of roleplaying actions, I'm afraid.

      Did you RTFA? That's what this is all about.

      But you're wrong, because people don't want to whip out their credit card mid game. Well maybe rich people like whipping out their credit card... the rest of us won't pay $8 for a virtual costume.

      Fortunately this author makes games no person I can understand would want to play anyway(http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025191.html to see), so hey, maybe he's onto something. Obviously they're too stupid to have heard of pirating, or they'd be playing better games.

      People will still pay for your game if it is good and they will still pirate it because they don't have money in the first place.

      Speaking of pirating, ingame content costing money is no more secure than a well-implemented serial code, and can be considerably less secure. Consider, for instance, that some games have serial code validation THROUGHOUT THE GAME, using different methods to verify your code. Talk about a pissoff for a hacker. THAT'S how you make your code secure - make it too much of time sink for the pirates to hack. You gotta remember step one of piracy is still cracking the game... cracking micropay is no different than cracking any other security scheme, and just like all the others, it won't work.

      Why? There's this thing, maybe you've heard it. "Information wants to be free." If you free information, it promises continual rewards in terms of both LOVE(from the people you give it away to for free) and MONEY(from the virus you implanted with it).

      If you really want to make more money off your games, try setting up game conferences, selling retail items, letting the game be modded and setting up an advertised modding site... you have options that don't pissing off your customer with DRM that requires them to be online or suspended disbelief(IE whipping out the real wallet, a very noticeable thing for most of us) in the middle of your game.

    11. Re:Why do they need to be free? by WDot · · Score: 1

      Absolutely not. I'm a PC gamer because I pay $50 for not only a game, but SUPPORT. I know I'm going to get patches to fix the game and increase performance, I know I'm going to occasionally get additional content FOR FREE from the developers to keep the game alive, and I know there will be a mod community to provide everything else.

      Valve and Epic and Blizzard don't shake up gameplay too much. They make shooters and RTS's and unless you are a huge shooter/RTS connoisseur you probably won't notice the difference between many of their games. But they support their customers, and that's why people come back to them. Blizzard gave Starcraft a DECADE of updates. Starcraft II is just going to be Starcraft I with better graphics, but with support like that I'll jump at the chance to play the Protoss in 3d.

      I was in a Best Buy and saw two Sims 2 expansions called "Sims 2: H & M" and "Sims 2: Ikea." I kid you not. They wanted people to plunk $20 a pop to have brand name clothes and furniture in their game. This is what your suggestion will lead to, and that is exactly what we DON'T need.

      Also, many Asian MMO's have that exact business model, and the game becomes less about the time and effort you put in and more about the money you put in. Not fun.

  30. PC gaming's real enemy: by zerocommazero · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I personally think it's the consoles that are the REAL reason. A decade ago, PCs were at the top of the hill for superior graphics and networking for team playing. Now they aren't because HDTVs, internet connectivity and multicore proccesor consoles. There's no niche anymore. At least worth spending on. Same thing happened to arcades.

    1. Re:PC gaming's real enemy: by tbannist · · Score: 1

      It's not just consoles, it's the guys who make chips, graphics cards, and assemble PCs. I got a new computer a while ago, and I thought it had a decent graphics card in it. Turned out I was wrong. The graphics card sucked ass and I couldn't even play a lot of older games at their normal settings. I didn't know what the hell was wrong with it, until I replaced the graphics card with a slightly better card from a different company. Although the specs don't appear to be that much different, the actual result was the difference between chugging on minimum settings and sailing on maximum settings.

      If you don't care to learn quite a bit about graphics cards, you won't know what you need to play the games you want and you will not be happy with results of the money you wasted on the wrong stuff.

      Consoles win because you are supposed to have to worry about which version of the console will play the games the way you want to play them. Of course, MS and Sony are because screwing that up for themselves.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
  31. Involuntary 100% discount by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    A good replacement term for piracy is the involuntary 100% discount... which differs very little from the voluntary 100% discount suggested by making 'all computer games free'. That is 100% stupid. If you are charging for services related to the game, i.e. "color t-shirts" in the game or the online service or whatever, then guess what part people will pirate instead of the game?

    --
    stuff |
    1. Re:Involuntary 100% discount by pxc · · Score: 1

      Could you phrase that another way? I'm not sure I understood you 100%.

  32. Nexon games by musikit · · Score: 1

    All Nexon games include the rootkit know as "Game Guard". you may not want to install these machines unless your willing to have a rootkit installed on your machine.

  33. Open Source games by xgr3gx · · Score: 1

    I've said it before...open source games will improve this.
    Sure, they might not have the latest engines, but many good, free, cross platform games have come from the open sourcing of the Quake3 engine (UrbanTerror)
    It's a great game, and Windows, Mac, and Linux (32 and 64 bit Linux) users can all play it, for free. In my opinion its a commerical quality game, or damn close to it.
    Manufacturers should opensource their old unloved game engines so they can live on as free games for all!
    Even if they offered free (or cheap) API access to thier proprietary engines.
    Of course this will bring up the money making point. How will vendors develop new game engines if they don't make any money.
    That I can't answer

    --
    Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
    1. Re:Open Source games by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

      I think actually, more open-source game ENGINE's would improve this....

      Most of the industry, at least for 3d shooters tend to use either the unreal engine or an ID variant...would make sense to open-source them maybe?

      The thing commercial entities do well at is the body of a game; intricate level design, high detail textures, voice acting, movement capturing and so on...and because there big $$$ to be made if it's done right.
      The thing the open-source community do well is the optimised, techie low-level programming that supports it all. Combine the two and you could be onto a winner maybe?

      Yes, this is an over-simplification I know, but it's just a thought.

      --
      throw new NoSignatureException();
  34. Free Games by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

    Free Games As a Solution To Game Piracy

    It is really tough to pirate a free game... I've tried it a few times, I just don't feel as badass when I do it.

    1. Re:Free Games by menace3society · · Score: 1

      You can get a hex editor/debugger to add copy protection, share it on a free site, and then only tell people you like what the password is.

      If you can convince people that yoursis the "real/complete" version, you win.

  35. Piracy is not an excuse by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Interesting

    People have been pirating games for almost 30 years, but companies have been profitable. Pirating games is a giant pain in the butt, so if you can purchase a game online and legally download it, you're probably going to do it. You can purchase almost any game via digital downloads these days.

    Compare to consoles, I own an xbox 360 but do not own a single game. I don't pirate, but I have gamefly. I get 3-4 games per month, which I play beat and return in mere days. The amount of money being made there per game is miniscule, if I had more free time I would probably do the trade-in thing which I understand is all the rage.

    I'm not convinced "free" (as in crack) games are a solution to a real problem. Windows is just not turnkey enough for the simple games that consoles do best. For the complicated games, lately people don't buy very many. Who has time for WoW AND Lotro AND MMOG++? PC games tend to be involved, for this reason we won't acquire every game that hits the shelves and will be selective. If a game sucks, we won't buy it, no time, forget money.

    Console games...well gamefly will send me anything on my queue, and I'll keep the queue full even if the games on it suck and I just send it back barely touched. If you're EA, this is just fine, that means they're getting more share of my entertainment budget ($14.99/mo or whatever it is). From the standpoint of running a business based on increasing profits, they like it, no risk.

    1. Re:Piracy is not an excuse by BenoitRen · · Score: 1

      People have been pirating for 30 years, but the past 8 years have made it very easy. Want to pirate a game? Google the torrent, and start downloading. DRM? No problem, Google the patch that someone has already made. no-CD patch? Same.

  36. 'ninjutsu' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its time they took their share of the blame.

  37. Online games by Drakin020 · · Score: 1

    Online games have it the best.

    It's hard to pirate something that authenticates your key. I'm not just talking WoW or anythign like that, but more so BF2 or other games that rely the end users to play online to get the full experience.

    I know this doesn't help the whole gaming market, but still....

    Also they complain so much about how people getting the game for free (Piracy) is hurting them...yet they just go to offer it free for everyone? How does that make sense?

    --
    The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
  38. Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by Zarhan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Valve has a nice vision:

    http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=160866

    Have to say I agree with them.

    I recently bought a new, up-to-date PC with dual cores and all the bells and whistles. After playing nothing but WoW, Civ and other less-powerhungry games on my trusty old 1,2 GHz Celeron and Win'98, I could finally check out all the games I missed.

    So far: Half-Life 2, Orange Box (consisting of EP1&EP2 too, and Portal). Love it. Also love Steam. It works.
    Another case: Galactic Civilizations 2. Stardock's Stardock Central (and the parallel, Impulse), rock.

    NO Copy protection. No DVD in drive bullshit. No running through the hoops. Before, when I bought a game it was always running via gamecopyworld.com to get the crack. Another game that I got was Crysis. Fine, gamecopyworld has cracks - except there isn't one for the 64-bit 1.21 version. So I was stuck with the DVD in drive..

    Then, as an old Baldur's Gate&Torment&Kotor fan, I heard that Bioware had done a new RPG - Mass Effect. To avoid hassle, I googled for what copy protection it's using - and read about the whole phone-home-schema. I can run Steam in offline mode. Stardock Central doesn't phone home. But these guys seriously thought that spyware in your PC is ok?!

    I was already firing up my torrent client, but then I read http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/09/2318229 about EA loosening the DRM and actually bought the game instead.

    Gotta love Valve. And Blizzard.

    1. Re:Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another case: Galactic Civilizations 2. Stardock's Stardock Central (and the parallel, Impulse), rock.

      NO Copy protection. No DVD in drive bullshit. No running through the hoops.

      Same. I bought GalCiv II specifically because of their lead developer's rant against DRM. Still love it and, in fact, I'm in the middle of yet another sandbox game right now.

      Before, when I bought a game it was always running via gamecopyworld.com to get the crack.

      My dvd drive died a mysterious and permanent death a while back and I haven't found a need to replace it yet. The only way in which I have been inconvenienced by this is all the games that have CD checks. So, to gamecopyworld I went, to download pirate versions of several games I already own to get around a dumbass antipirate measure that DOES NOTHING to stop piracy.

      I was already firing up my torrent client, but then I read http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/09/2318229 [slashdot.org] about EA loosening the DRM and actually bought the game instead.

      Sucker. You still have to activate it online and you can only do that three times. Reason enough right there for me not to buy a game.

      I also didn't buy Battlefield 1943 (or whatever the hell it's called) because I discovered the CD installs some pretty obnoxious DRM (Starforce). DRM is a deal breaker. I don't send money to companies that use it.

    2. Re:Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Steam is copy protection.

      I wonder what DRM SC2 and DiabloIII will have?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by sponga · · Score: 1

      It was Battlefield 1942 and I used a cd crack since day one the game was released, Daemon tools made it even easier when I just made an image of the CD and loaded it from my hard drive. It didn't bother me though since I had a dvd burner drive and my old cd burner drive, I just left the Battlefield 1942 in the cd burner drive since I never used it. Starforce was not used on the Battlefield series, just simple cd check which could be avoided with 1MB worth of files that it scans to look for on the CD/DVD.

      You missed out on one of the greatest war games ever along with its free mods and Battlefield 2 stepped it up a notch but required a cd in the drive. Desert Combat the mod for BF1942 was basically a whole other game in itself but was completely free, the mod team got bought out by EA or one of its entities but they are still good these days.
      I bought Battlefield 2142 on EA Downloader and have never had to bother with a CD/DVD again, I even went over to my buddies house and downloaded the entire game within an hour for him to play.

    4. Re:Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by Synthaxx · · Score: 1

      I also have to comment that my pirating has gone down considerably since installing Steam.

      With Steam they made the legal copies as easy as the illegal ones.
      No CD, install anywhere, play anywhere or downloading the whole thing.

      That coupled with their awesome games is a potent combination, no wonder a whole heap of publishers hopped on Steam.

    5. Re:Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by Haoie · · Score: 1

      Nice thinking, but of extremely limited use to the consumers with slow internet speeds, data caps, limited accessibility, and so on.

      They play games too.

      --
      If each mistake being made is a new one, then progress is being made.
    6. Re:Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by pxc · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure. Warcraft II and Starcraft, as I recall have none. Warcraft III uses an old version of SecuROM that isn't invasive like today's SecuROM, which gives me hope that Blizzard will stick to a similar scheme for Starcraft 2 and Diablo III, or nothing at all.

      Another point of consideration for those games is that much of their focus is online (for Diablo III, basically all of it is). While there are sure to be a few people who will pirate the game just to play the campaign, the excitement and competition of the game is all on Battle.net. It will probably take much longer for the PvPGN (a Battle.net + Westwood Online emulator) to add support than it would to simply crack the client. They can stop most serious piracy without hurting their customers by simply basing the restrictions around adding gateways/servers to the online server listing. Of course, I hope they don't do that, since I use a PvPGN server for LAN parties and tournaments. :-\

    7. Re:Not free. Digital downloads, easy updates. by Snaller · · Score: 1

      "I can run Steam in offline mode. "

      Good for you. I can't, it always wants to go online.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  39. MMORPG Model == New OS Model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most of the games are following the "Free" MMORPG model.

    The game is "free", you just pay a subscription to play online.

    Other MMORPG's are "free" with no online subscription, but certain permium items cost money. [Albatross 18 or 'Pangya Island'] is a common example. 100% free, but most of the worthwhile items cost real money.

    I also see a similar micropayment system happening with applications.

    The base application will be 'free'
                    -spellcheck a document, $0.25/page
                    -print a document, $0.10/page
                    -voice recognition, $5.00/hr
                    -scanning , $0.10/page
                    -clip art, $1.00/image
                    -data analysis, $1.00/chart

    I picture the OS doing the same thing:
                      -file management, $0.001/file
                      -memory management, $0.001/Mb
                      -CD burning : 5.00/CD + RIAA royalty
                      -DVD Burning: 15.00/DVD + MPAA + RIAA Royalty
                      -CPU management 0.000001/CPU/TICK*APPLICATION
                      -Viewing Digital Pictures: 0.001/Picture
                      -Network Management : 0.005/Mb
                      -View a DVD : 0.50 + MPAA royalty
                      -Send Email 0.05/Email/Recipient + Network Management Fee
                      -Receive Email : 0.01/Message + Network Management Fee
                      -Games: [Fees set by game owner , does not include Network Management Fee, and CPU / Memory management Fee]

      I predict Microsoft or another OS maker will embrace this, by saying it benefits the consumer, as they only pay for the features they use, as they use them.

    Heck, why not go back to renting CPU time, it's what Microsoft essentially wants, millions of dumb terminals, at the mercy of a centrally controlled Microsoft server.

    Think it won't work? It already does. You pay the same 'as-you-go' fees for your cellphone, just at ridiculous [high] rates.

    1. Re:MMORPG Model == New OS Model by Pontiac · · Score: 1

      -Send Email 0.05/Email/Recipient + Network Management Fee
                -Receive Email : 0.01/Message + Network Management Fee

      There is no way you will get people to pay to recieve an email message unless you have some plan for 100% perfect spam control.
      Charge to send a Email? hmm maybe if you can guarentee I won't be charged every time some spammer spoofs my address.

      They will have to come up with some kind of encrypted E-Stamp. You would buy a stamp from a trusted cert site like verisign and attach it to your message.. That "stamp/cert" would guarentee delivery through all anti-spam appliances.

      You know what will happen next.. the stamp/cert company will make new "classes" and service levels. Charge for delivery confirmation and read recipt. Prioroty delivery certs and so on.. bulk mail certs at discounted rates.. You'll still get spam, just spam you can't do anything about because it's been paid for.
      Someone will always be willing to drop a few cents to tell you about the Shiny new Product X now with additive A

      --
      If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
    2. Re:MMORPG Model == New OS Model by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 1

      There is no way you will get people to pay to recieve an email message unless you have some plan for 100% perfect spam control.

      Every cell phone user in the USA without a messaging plan gets dinged .20 every time they receive a text message. That includes spam, ads, and wrong numbers. My biggest problem with SMS is that there is no way to reject incoming messages, thus dodging the charge.

      --
      "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
    3. Re:MMORPG Model == New OS Model by Pontiac · · Score: 1

      Yeah you do have a point there..
      Funny thing.. I've had a PDA tyle Cell phone for the last 6 years and I've only recieved 1 text spam..
      Maybe I'm just lucky.

      My Email is running over 95% spam.

      --
      If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
    4. Re:MMORPG Model == New OS Model by descil · · Score: 1

      no, only idiotic cellphone users, which is who this pricing model will appeal to as well.

      You should really be SMS'ing for free, you're very open to DOS attacks.

      http://patphelan.net/send-and-recieve-free-sms-with-joopz/
      http://www.geckoandfly.com/2006/08/06/send-free-sms-with-gofreesmscom/
      http://thinkabdul.com/2006/09/05/sendrecieve-free-sms-from-computer-via-mobile-bluetooth/
      http://thinkabdul.com/2007/08/11/cellity-sms-software-for-java-mobiles-send-receive-free-sms-with-more-than-160-characters-save-threaded-sms-history/

      There are plenty of options. Screwing your customers is only a good idea if you are good at coming up with new names for your company.

  40. Ha ha ha by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    Because, you know, free games are working out so well on Linux. We have thousands of games to play here! Oh, wait...

    1. Re:Ha ha ha by Anomalyst · · Score: 1

      Warzone 2100 should be enough for anyone.

      --
      There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
  41. Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by ShadowWraith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IMHO, the problem in PC gaming today is that obtaining hardware that is comparable to modern consoles, and capable of playing brand-new high-end games takes a HUGE dent in the wallet. Getting the graphical equivalent of a Wii on a PC would cost hundreds more than a PS3 (Which is considered a real money-eater). Why would anyone pay over a thousand dollars to play games equivalent to games they would play on a console for much less? Also, now that consoles offer online play, there is no advantage to gaming on a computer, except for complex rpgs where a keyboard is more comfortable than a controller (Which may explain the success of Warcraft and Co.). If PC game companies want to sell more, they must invent new ways to take advantage of the pc's unique qualities, or somehow drastically reduce the price of high-end hardware.

    1. Re:Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by dave420 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Graphical equivalent of the Wii on the PC? It only outputs video at 480i, and only has 24MB of memory for its graphics adaptor. You can buy a card to do that for well under $100. The PC games industry is currently booming. All this "PC games are dead" is complete bullshit.

    2. Re:Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by Targon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is a very common misconception about the costs for playing games on a PC. I have seen your argument over and over again, so I hope you see my response/correction.

      A computer that is used for work or general "home" stuff does not come with good graphics in most cases. These machines are 100 percent focused on non-games related tasks, so as a result, you should not put those functions into the "cost for the games portion of the computer". You can also look at this from another point of view, where if you ONLY buy a computer to play games and NOTHING else, then the cost of a gaming computer is much more expensive than a console, but if you plan to buy a computer for other things as well as playing games, you can now split the costs up.

      HP Pavilion desktop computer with AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+, 3GB RAM(DDR2), 360GB hard drive, integrated NVIDIA graphics and onboard sound will cost you $530 from Best Buy. Add a 19 inch screen, and you are looking at under $700 for the complete machine. Notice that there is nothing here that is focused on playing games.

      So, what would turn the above computer into a decent gaming computer? The video card, which will run between $200 and $300 for a card that is probably more powerful than what you would see in an Xbox 360 or PS3. That is the only price you are really paying to play games here.

      What many people do not think about is how many people use a flat panel TV to play their game console on. If you don't watch TV on that big flat panel screen, you should now add the price of the screen to your game console. That will be upwards of $800. Suddenly, the cost of a game console is quite a bit higher than the computer. In the same way I write off the non-gamer components from a computer, you can theoretically write down the cost of that flat panel TV if you watch TV on it.

      So, what platform costs more to operate now? Do you connect your PS3 to a regular TV?

    3. Re:Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by ShadowWraith · · Score: 1

      Well, actually, the only console I own is a PSX which I got used for 40 bucks. But the fact is that even though what you say is true, the consumer doesn't see it that way. If a computer is priced at 800-1000$, the buyer won't think "Hey, I can do other stuff with that too, so it's not too bad", he'll think "800 bucks! No way, I'm better off with a Wii!". Most people won't go into deep introspection when buying, and so, pc gaming suffers.

    4. Re:Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by dmneoblade · · Score: 1

      I have an aging gaming pc, and I upgraded (about 4 months ago) to replace my 21" tv and 23" CRT, with a 23" LCD hdtv. Got all the hookups for my PS2 and PC. Then, last month, I decided to get an xbox 360. Hooked that up to my monitor, and got a $5 HDMI cable from amazon. After I move out, I'd probably get a big-screen TV for games, movies, and anime. I wouldn't get cable (not much I like on there) but might get one of the netflix boxes, since I already use thier online streaming service. Granted, it would be used mostly for games, but it is a lot easier to have 4 friends playing on a 40+ inch TV, then a 23 inch one. So, overall, yes, the 360 may have been more expensive than buying the computer, but it also has less worries of compatibility, and needing an upgrade in 2 years.

      --
      Warning, knife is sharp. Please keep out of children.
    5. Re:Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by Kattspya · · Score: 1

      Can we please stop this myth?

      I bought new hardware and spent all of 450$ (including 25% VAT) for a new motherboard, CPU, GPU, RAM and a great big honking CPU cooler. It plays all the newest games at high detail levels on lower resolutions.

      Do you consider that a "HUGE dent in the wallet"?

      Don't forget to factor in the ability to run mods and the price difference of games in your equation.

    6. Re:Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by nawcom · · Score: 0

      Don't you think that's a little too much power for a computer to do "non-gaming" functions? These days people are finding out that the power they need to do these type of things is something low cost like an Eee.

      What's wrong with a GMA card inside a nice cheap intel board, 60GB hard drive and 512-1GB memory? You can get that and put it inside a nice looking $20 PC case for well under $200. Or you could go in the VIA direction, which makes things incredibly cheap. I just put together a nice, compact gaming machine with a fast geforce 8 card for a relative for $600 lcd monitor and all, and it does more than enough. Inf fact she bought a copy of Assassin's Creed, and it runs flawlessly.

      Perhaps I may have some misinterpretations of what you were trying to point out, but your choices in the example you gave didn't really make any sense, since a dedicated graphics card isn't the only part of a computer that shows the difference between a general purpose and intense graphics processing machine. I just visualized you with one of those alienware machines, pulling in and out the PCI Express graphics card saying, "This is a regular PC, this is a gaming PC, this is a regular PC, this is......."

      Well. Unless you want to run Vista on it. hehe. 3 gigs of memory... Then I'll understand.

    7. Re:Expensive hardware kills PC gaming by Zalbik · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with a GMA card inside a nice cheap intel board, 60GB hard drive and 512-1GB memory? You can get that and put it inside a nice looking $20 PC case for well under $200. Or you could go in the VIA direction, which makes things incredibly cheap. I just put together a nice, compact gaming machine with a fast geforce 8 card for a relative for $600 lcd monitor and all, and it does more than enough. Inf fact she bought a copy of Assassin's Creed, and it runs flawlessly.

      I'll totally agree that the initial costs of PC gaming vs. console gaming aren't that different, especially when you consider that a PC can be used for much more than just gaming.

      My issue is that the incremental cost of being able to play the latest games drove me out of PC gaming. I was finding that I was upgrading my video card every 2 - 3 years for $200-$300, and my processor/motherboard every 4 years or so for another $200-$300.
      That, combined with the stupid changes in memory / video card formats meant that I often could not re-use old hardware when I did upgrade my motherboard.

      I wouldn't say that console gaming is tremendously cheaper than PC gaming, but I still figure that it is approx 20-30% cheaper to maintain a console & office PC than it is to maintain a gaming PC alone.

      Also, I'm a more than a little surprised about your relatives ability to play Assasin's creed on a $600 PC given the MINIMUM system requirements below:

      * Processor: Dual core processor 2.6 GHz Intel Pentium D or AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2 GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ or better recommended)
      * RAM: 2 GB (3 GB recommended)
      * Video Card: 256 MB DirectX 10.0-compliant video card or DirectX 9.0-compliant card with Shader Model 3.0 or higher (512 MB video card recommended) (see supported list)*
      * Sound Card: DirectX 9.0 or 10.0 compliant sound card (5.1 sound card recommended)
      * Hard Drive Space: 12 GB

      You must have gotten some pretty good deals on HW...

  42. Gaming is going downhill because new games suck by brainchill · · Score: 1

    Every fantastic new PC game that comes out is a new rendition of the same .. over and over and over again ... quake/unreal are still quake and unreal if you make the graphics better and better and add more maps ... almost every new game that comes out is just a new version of the same damn thing ... there is nothing new or revolutionary and that's why I virtually quit PC gaming and bought a wii

    1. Re:Gaming is going downhill because new games suck by kentrel · · Score: 1

      That's why I stopped buying new computers. There's nothing new, they're just the same basic idea (harddrive+cpu+memory) just with better graphics and more speed. An x86 intel chip is still an x86 intel chip, except its a new version of the same damn thing...

      There is nothing new or revolutionary, so that's why I virtually quit PC purchasing and bought a Commodore 64.

  43. Really? by madsheep · · Score: 1

    Can someone name a bunch of these games that are failing and not making money because of piracy? There's a difference between the majority of people playing a game pirated it and your game blows donkey balls and the only people that -tried- it (and subsequently immediately deleted it) pirated it. I haven't bought/played a new computer game since Doom 3 personally. Haven't been a big fan of computer games in years. However, I think most people just aren't playing them, not that they're all being pirated. Maybe I am wrong.

    1. Re:Really? by descil · · Score: 1

      You're not wrong. Take a look at David Perry's history:

      http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025191.html

      Except for Earthworm Jim, which was a massive hit, imo all those games are derivative crap not worth publishing or paying for. They're the kind of thing you see on the storeshelf and think, "wouldn't I rather just watch the movie, which is cheaper anyway?"

      People are still buying and playing games. Certain games are very difficult to crack, or impossible(like subscription model is pretty hard, lol). Others you get single player, but can't play online because you can't authenticate.

      The more a game is pirated, the more it is sold. Nothing worthwhile to see here, just greed. Keep in mind David's company IS called "SHINY games." Shiny means "pretty" and implies "worthless." So I suspect David Perry will probably think his model of forcing people to buy things ingame will actually work - not because it's a good idea, but because anyone who buys his games apparently has no taste anyway, so can't be expected to know about suspended disbelief...

  44. Anonymous Coward. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The game itself should be free and easily downloaded and with on-line play capability. They will have other avenues of income once the game is on-line. Think Korea.

  45. This is why MMOs have grown so much by Amisinthe · · Score: 1

    The cost of the CD is really irrelevant compared to the monthly fee, which isn't "piratable" in the sense that a CD is.

  46. I like Demos.... by Darkk · · Score: 0

    This gives me a chance to see what the game is like and see if is worth buying. Sony does this all the time with the PS3 via downloads. Just wish their games weren't so friggin expensive. $59???

  47. Try before you buy by BigJClark · · Score: 1


    Id software mastered this. I'm not embarrassed to say I download games that interest me, then buy them if they are good.

    As I am in the software industry, I know building software from the ground up can be a considerable challenge, especially since the underlying hardware changes so goddamn fast, however, it is possible for good dev houses to build and deliver stable products.

    --

    Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
  48. Inappropriately conflated "Illegal" w/ "Steal" by Woundweavr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You make a reasonable argument on why its wrong to violate copyright. That does not mean its "stealing."

    When you pirate a work, you must by definition make a new copy. That copy can only be legally produced by the copyright holder. It would make no sense to simply destroy it, and so ownership of it reverts to the one legally able to produce it in the first place. Most of the time illegally-produced copies get destroyed anyway, but that need not be the case.

    In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder. By not returning the copy to them or buying it outright, you are in fact depriving them of something: a copy to sell or otherwise do with as they will.

    And so, piracy equals theft.

    Possession of something that should lawfully belong to someone is not theft on its face. The means by which one takes unlawful possession indicate different crimes.

    • If one physically takes possession of something belonging to another person through force or stealth, this is called theft.
    • If one obtains property of another through a transaction that used an excess of deceit to the point that the transaction is considered invalid, this is called fraud.
    • If one makes a copy of media that is copyrighted without the consent of the copyright holder to an extent that is considered unlawful (one has the right to make backup copies under the fair use doctrine and until the 90s one could make copies if one did not receive financial gain from the copies), this is called copyright violation
    • If one purchases or otherwise obtains property in a transaction that would normally be legal, but the goods are stolen, this is called purchasing stolen goods (and is only a crime if done knowingly).
    • If there is a civil dispute over property ownership and the possessor of the goods is found to not be the proper owner, this is not considered theft or even a criminal matter (generally).

    There are a number of other variations on the above. Simple possession of another person's rightful property does not necessarily constitute theft.

    1. Re:Inappropriately conflated "Illegal" w/ "Steal" by Millennium · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      There are a number of other variations on the above. Simple possession of another person's rightful property does not necessarily constitute theft.

      When using overcomplicated and internally inconsistent legal language, yes. In reality, no.

    2. Re:Inappropriately conflated "Illegal" w/ "Steal" by geekoid · · Score: 1

      In reality, yes.
      Stealing is a very specific meaning, one that does not include copyright violation.

      Copyright is a specific law, one that doesn't exist naturally. Meaning even before written word, taking something from someone was intuitively wrong.

      Not to mention that if you bothered to read the law, look at previous court cases, you would understand the distribution is the crime.

      There is very good reason for this, but I doubt your closed mine and no fact based belief wouldn't allow you to understand.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Inappropriately conflated "Illegal" w/ "Steal" by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      It's sad that you have to explain that for people. Ignorance is sad.

      However, it's necessary.

      (Good post btw)

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    4. Re:Inappropriately conflated "Illegal" w/ "Steal" by christ,+jesus+H · · Score: 1

      You make a reasonable argument on why its wrong to violate copyright. That does not mean its "stealing."

      When you pirate a work, you must by definition make a new copy. That copy can only be legally produced by the copyright holder. It would make no sense to simply destroy it, and so ownership of it reverts to the one legally able to produce it in the first place. Most of the time illegally-produced copies get destroyed anyway, but that need not be the case.

      In any case, you now have a copy of the software that belongs to the copyright holder. By not returning the copy to them or buying it outright, you are in fact depriving them of something: a copy to sell or otherwise do with as they will.

      And so, piracy equals theft.

      Possession of something that should lawfully belong to someone is not theft on its face. The means by which one takes unlawful possession indicate different crimes.

      • If one physically takes possession of something belonging to another person through force or stealth, this is called theft.
      • If one obtains property of another through a transaction that used an excess of deceit to the point that the transaction is considered invalid, this is called fraud.
      • If one makes a copy of media that is copyrighted without the consent of the copyright holder to an extent that is considered unlawful (one has the right to make backup copies under the fair use doctrine and until the 90s one could make copies if one did not receive financial gain from the copies), this is called copyright violation
      • If one purchases or otherwise obtains property in a transaction that would normally be legal, but the goods are stolen, this is called purchasing stolen goods (and is only a crime if done knowingly).
      • If there is a civil dispute over property ownership and the possessor of the goods is found to not be the proper owner, this is not considered theft or even a criminal matter (generally).

      There are a number of other variations on the above. Simple possession of another person's rightful property does not necessarily constitute theft.

      There is no question that there is a large difference between larceny or fraud and copywright violation. What is saddening really, is that people today have been programmed to believe that content creators should (morally) be intitled to income from works, ad infinitum. Yes a man is entitled to the fruit of his labors, but at some point expecting one to sell the fruit over and over without having to produce any more labor, is just completely counter productive to society and really the fundmental ideas of property. Its long off topic here, but copywright, trademark, IP and patend law need some serious revisions. We need as a culture to re evaluate the actual value proposition offered society by some of our more illogical and just obtuse structures in that area (but I guess most slashdoters already know that LOL).

      --
      Ohh spiteful one tell me who to smote and he shall be smolten!
  49. Freeloading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Copying is not theft, but it is not ethical either.

    "Freeloading" seems a reasonable name for it.

  50. Free could be possible by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

    I like the idea of, where appropriate, having real life ads in games....it A, makes it easier to relate to, and B, could pay for the game anyway...if done right, for the right game-types.

    The games where free won't work though, are the single player games only. Bioshock for example; excellent game, very well choreographed, excellent "acting" and attention to detail, and absolutely no reason to ever be connected to the internet to play it. Free just won't work for games like Bioshock.

    And one more thing; they need to make it easier to PAY for the game than to pirate it. All the steam games for example are incredibly easy to pay for; there's no disc; games are kept invisibly patched, and even your save games are (or will be, rather) kept online. Goto a new machine, log into steam, and voila; you can download it all again free and resume where you left off.
    Most games however are just easier to pirate than they are to legitimately own. Shame.

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
  51. "Free" is a matter of perspective by VoyagerRadio · · Score: 1

    Not to criticize the original poster, but the summary/opening paragraph of this article is misleading. Reading the actual article referred to reveals that the term "free" is quite loosely applied. The writer argues that the games *will* be paid for by its players -- just not *all* players. A representative of one of the game devs states, "...there'll be a charge for things you might want to use in the game...Your character might have a plain white T-shirt. If you wanted a nicer one you could have it for a dollar. Or perhaps you could buy a magic sword for a knight for a dollar." So it appears that "piracy", or "market correction", or "downright theft" -- however you wish to deem it -- will be counterbalanced *with real money* rather than completely free games.

    --
    Harold
  52. But wait, what's the catch? by NetVector · · Score: 1

    How about "Alternate Sourcing" instead of piracy, But come on, nothing is ever free

  53. I give up by GottliebPins · · Score: 1

    I have given up on PC games. It doesn't matter how new your computer is, any game sitting in a box on the shelf today isn't going to be compatible with it. The game may cost you $20 but you'll have to invest another $200 into your PC before you can run it. Hardware manufacturers should just buy out the software companies and give the games away for free. They make all their money back on the video cards and sound cards and ram you'll need to actually play them.

  54. Isn't that like... by XZiniX · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Free Beer as a solution to Drunk Driving"

    1. Re:Isn't that like... by electricbern · · Score: 1

      Yes, as in "you drink so much you pass out and don't drive".

      --
      alias possession='chmod 666 satan && ls /dev > il && tail daemon.log'
    2. Re:Isn't that like... by menace3society · · Score: 1

      No, it's like "comprehensive low-cost municipal public transit as a solution to drunk driving."

      Incidentally, another idea whose time has come.

  55. Call a spade a spade by eepok · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's not stolen, it's not pirated... it's an "Unlicensed Copy". Nothing more, nothing less.

    1. Re:Call a spade a spade by Samuel_Gompers · · Score: 1

      Nor is there any inherent difference to a loaf of bread in a grocery store against what it is on one's shelf. There is no magical process that happens at the register except a 'licensing' process. So unless you're some kind of latter-day Bakunin who believes that all property is a meaningless construct, it is absolutely stealing.

    2. Re:Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, you're an idiot.

      How about "making a digital copy deprives the original owner of nothing"?

    3. Re:Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      I often go into the store and start eating the food off the shelves. When they tell me to stop, I just tell them that according to Samuel Gompers, there's no inherent difference to the food in the store and the food on my shelf, so how can they expect me to know the difference? Then I eat the security guards, under the misapprehension that they are also food. I think it works out best for everyone, in the end.

    4. Re:Call a spade a spade by Samuel_Gompers · · Score: 1

      except a viable market

    5. Re:Call a spade a spade by eepok · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is inherent difference between an item in my house and an item elsewhere. Mainly, that one item is in my house and the other is elsewhere.

      Deprive someone of physical property for the sake of your own use and you have committed theft.

      Deprive someone of physical property for the sake of resale, and you've both committed theft and entered the black market.

      Copy the property or recipe for the property, you have violated copyright violation because you have an unlicensed copy.

      Copy the property or recipe for the property for the sake of sale, and you've both created unlicensed copies and you're bootlegging.

      Theft/black market deprives people of ownership/possession, use, and potential profits.

      Creating unlicensed copies and/or bootlegging only deprives people of potential profits.

    6. Re:Call a spade a spade by Samuel_Gompers · · Score: 1

      "...only deprives people of potential profits." i.e., a livelihood. But I'm sure the makers of Titan Quest appreciate the split hairs there, even if it won't buy them a haircut.

    7. Re:Call a spade a spade by eepok · · Score: 1

      Please elaborate. I am not familiar with Titan Quest, nor how it relates to the discussion.

    8. Re:Call a spade a spade by descil · · Score: 1

      Creating unlicensed copies by itself doesn't deprive anyone of profit. Only if you get into redistribution is there a legal issue.

      But when you use bittorrent/etc I guess you're automatically redistributing ;)

      What if someone else is already providing that file for free? They could've just gotten the file from the other guy anyway, so there's no way you're actually depriving anyone of a profit.

      ya ya, roll your eyes at me... the jury will be more convinced, I assure you... *keeps updown-loading*

      Now see here. There is profit to be had in free distribution, and it doesn't come from people paying $1 extra for a sword. That's just ugly. What you need to do instead is as simple as south park,

      1) distribute a worm with the game
      2) ??? oooh so many options
      3) PROFIT!

    9. Re:Call a spade a spade by sesshomaru · · Score: 1
      Iron Lore Entertainment published Titan's Quest. They recently closed due to lack of funding. So it goes...

      .

      The GP is suggesting that if they had the profits they lost due to piracy, they wouldn't have closed.

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    10. Re:Call a spade a spade by eepok · · Score: 1

      Ah! It deprives them of speculated or potential profit. The potential profits lost by someone simply copying, say, a game for personal use is the profit that would have been earned had the person *purchased* the game instead of acquiring an unlicensed copy.

      Of course, the person could (likelihood arguable) have decided that the only way he would play the game is if it were free thus no potential profit was lost at all.

      That's why it's only potential and speculated loss and why, furthermore, acquiring unlicensed software is inherently less damaging than actual theft.

    11. Re:Call a spade a spade by sesshomaru · · Score: 1
      Correction, Iron Lore Entertainment developed Titan's Quest, it was published by THQ which is still very much in business.

      Sorry about that.

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    12. Re:Call a spade a spade by eepok · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the clarification! =) Now hopefully the poster will respond with his own analysis and how it would counter my definitions. =)

    13. Re:Call a spade a spade by descil · · Score: 1

      Woot, is that a legal definition? If so, I'm about to make a ton of money - people keep implementing ideas before I can get to them, definitely depriving me of sepculated or potential profit! ;)

      Very cool point though. I hope it is rigidly defined as a lesser offense - it definitely should be.

      Just to be argumentative (again I guess), couldn't the person also say they weren't willing to pay the full price but might've paid say $5, thereby reducing the potential profit loss to $5? But since nobody offers the game for $5, the potential profit loss is actually zero, since they're not willing to pay the price..

      :P No, I don't get it. If people are going to buy the product, they're going to buy the product. If they're not, and they still want to play it, they're going to pirate it. Why don't these companies just give it up and accept what we're willing to give them? I still think a donation model is the best way to charge for games, honestly. Think more people would pay if you gave it away for free and just ASK for some cash. Plus more people will play, meaning a greater mindshare, meaning more customers (mindshare is cool!)

    14. Re:Call a spade a spade by eepok · · Score: 1

      Hehehe, if your interpretation were correct, we'd all be locked in perpetual legal battles with the only rich people being LAWYERS! =P

      Unfortunately, despite logical definitions, the precedences isn't so definite. The courts have been allowing the prosecution to define what they *feel* has been the loss due to the acquisition of unlicensed copies. This includes the one copy AND all the potential copies allowed to be distributed. That's right. Potential of potential profits. If this were physics, we would have been destroyed by blacks holes.

      And you're completely correct in your final paragraph. The idea of being sued for potential profit is silly. That's why, if someone is sued, they *should* be sued of the cost of the licensing of the game. (Cost of game minus cost of packaging and distribution.) Any other potential damages cannot be proven and thus should not be admissible in court.

    15. Re:Call a spade a spade by descil · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's one bit of law I'm glad I'm not right on :D Wouldn't the judges be the rich ones? ;)

      So let me see... "We can prove that you might have deprived this company of money(minus shipping and handling, unless you were going to buy it online of course), but any other possible losses due to other people who might have purchased the game instead acquiring it for free as well must be dismissed - for lack of certainty!" ahaha awesome!

      Hm, I hope that the potential damages are properly reviewable by the defense. Like it'd be nice to be able to say "I distributed the file, but only for an hour, so there's no way I managed to send out 2 million full copies, man..." I know that normally judges have some leeway in sentencing, so there's probably some method for this...

      I really like law... if only we had better lawmakers...

    16. Re:Call a spade a spade by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Nor is there any inherent difference to a loaf of bread in a grocery store against what it is on one's shelf.

      But how does it get on my shelf from the store? If I copy it from someone, then the store copy is still on the shelf. I stole nothing. There is no difference between them, but that doesn't mean that how they are made is the same. Stealing requires that someone be able to point to an empty place on a shelf where their physical item was before, and it isn't anymore. But the item is still on the store shelf. No one can point to anything that is missing. With nothing missing, there is no loss. With no loss, there is no theft.

    17. Re:Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except a viable market

      SURPRISE ASSHOLE!

      Its nobody's responsibility but yours to insure your product is marketable.

      Botteled water makes assloads of money despite there being free water coming out of every tap in your house, companies managed to make a killing selling a free product.

      If a bottled water industry can thrive while it has to compete with a municipal water supply, I don't see any reason why a gaming company can't do the same even with Bittorrent.

    18. Re:Call a spade a spade by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So then you stole a viable market, but you didn't steal the game. You can't steal a game by copying it. It's still there, unstolen on the shelf, or your friend's computer, or on the thousands attached to the tracker or whatever. It isn't missing, so it can't have been stolen. But if you feel people have the right to profit, I'll make a widget no one wants, then sue everyone for not buying it. That makes as much sense as someone stealing a viable market...

    19. Re:Call a spade a spade by rabiddeity · · Score: 3, Funny

      I often go into the store and start eating the food off the shelves. When they tell me to stop, I just tell them that according to Samuel Gompers, there's no inherent difference to the food in the store and the food on my shelf, so how can they expect me to know the difference? Then I eat the security guards, under the misapprehension that they are also food. I think it works out best for everyone, in the end.

      I think you've been playing too much Nethack.

    20. Re:Call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, exactly!

      I grab the food right off the shelf, and as I pull it away another exact-duplicate suddenly appears to replace the version of canned pineapple I just took;

      how dare they complain that my stealing that can of pineapples deprived them of a can of pineapples - there's an exact copy right where the original was!

      How dare they say that because of me, they are losing money - they can still sell that can of pineapples whether I steal it or not - the only difference is, if I steal it, I get my own can of pineapples!

      Fools.

  56. the term is sharing or gifting by Surt · · Score: 1

    When I give you something that belongs to me with no expectation of return, that's gifting. If I expect it back, that's sharing.
    Very little rape, pillage, or seagoing vessels are involved, so piracy is clearly incorrect.

    --
    "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  57. Solution to in-store theft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My solution to stores losing product to theft is to simply give all their products away for free!

    Just imagine- Best Buy would never have another CD, movie, TV, etc stolen from them again.
    It's a whole New Economy! Let's race to the bottom!

  58. Product Placement by krgallagher · · Score: 1
    I have always thought the future of gaming was product placement. All in game items are sponsored in some way by a real world company who pays to have their item in the game.

    Imagine a first person shooter with all the weapons having actual gun manufacturer names. Or maybe an RPG where the power up potion is a Coke or a Pepsi. A mount could be a Subaru or a Ferrari.

    The possibilities are endless.

    --

    Insert Generic Sig Here:

  59. Here's an idea or two to cut down on piracy by Inglix+the+Mad · · Score: 1

    1) Release the demo before the game's release, preferably by two weeks. Let the game generate the buzz. Game makers used to do this. 2) Quit releasing tech demos. Yeah, Crysis is pretty, if you have a rig to run it at other than slideshow speeds (especially when it first came out). Some people pirate to be "cool." Some people pirate because they don't have the money but want it "right now". Some people pirate because they're sick of paying US$50 to beta test a game they don't like anyway. The guy at Ironclad said it best, if you build a good game that will run on many computers, you'll make money.

    --
    People say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Why? Is there any shortage of bad ones?
  60. Multiplayer is the future by billlava · · Score: 1

    In my opinion online multiplayer games represent the best chance for PC gaming to survive. Content delivery systems like Valve's STEAM allow developers to control access to games, which works effectively primarily for multiplayer games since you already have to be online anyway. Also, games like WoW have a future since you have to pay a subscription, and what you are paying for is not the graphics, or the ability to explore the online world, but the privilege of playing WITH other people on the company's game servers.

  61. Copyright and GPL: in the same boat by Nerdposeur · · Score: 1

    If you take GPLed code, modify it, and then release only binaries, you ARE depriving the rest of the world of something - the source code of your modifications. In that case, the word 'steal' is appropriate.

    I think you're trying to have it both ways. If a software company can't morally require you not to make copies of their product, then the community can't morally require you not to make modifications of their code.

    All you have to do is swap a couple of words: "Those (software copies|code changes) belong to our (company|community) according to the legal agreement!"

    Same idea. The violating party says "I haven't deprived you of anything physical, it's not stealing, nyah nyah nyah."

  62. Piracy unrelated to sells... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you look at recent charts, you will see that Assassin's Creed is still selling very well (German Media Control Charts Rank #4) despite being released as a pirated version months before it hit the shelfs. Alone In The Dark, on the other hand, is not even in the Top20, but it's out since two weeks without any _working_ pirated version available.

    (Yes, I know it got very bad ratings (IGN 3.5/10) but it was still highly anticipated. There are many examples that bad ratings are unrelated to selling as well)

  63. David Perry is a visionary. by CDarklock · · Score: 1

    I think Perry's nailed something here: micro-pay games are here to stay, and traditional studios are going to be less of a factor in the future of gaming. The pattern's been there for a while, in fact - small studio builds blockbuster game, big studio buys small studio, founders leave to start new small studio. Those of us who track the industry don't watch companies, we watch people. We don't watch Shiny and Origin and Atari, we watch David Perry and Raph Koster and Nolan Bushnell.

    Will games ever be free? They already are. Thousands of games are released every year for free. You never have to buy another game again. What costs is the same thing that always costs: the drive to have the latest and greatest things first. When Crackdown came out, it was $60, and it flew off the shelves because of the Halo 3 Beta invite it contained. If you waited a few weeks, hordes of used copies flooded the shelves. The price on the used shelf plummeted. A couple months down the road, you could pick it up for $15. If what you wanted was a good game, that was fantastic. But if what you wanted was the game everyone else was playing, it was worse than useless.

    --
    Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
    1. Re:David Perry is a visionary. by descil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He's put a nail in his coffin if he thinks he can rely on this. It's an insecure solution that will only turn people off more.

      Micropay for items ingame is slightly harder to patch than disabling serial protection, if properly implemented. But not by very much, and we're really good at it, thanks, pretty much the computer does all the hard work now.

      People don't want to whip out their credit card in midgame and use it to buy a +3 sword of shiny metal bits. At least I don't.

      Try donations instead. You might be surprised, if your content is any good. If it's not, you may as well piss of your users with DRM (as if that worked), because they're not going to like the game once they start playing anyway.

      Keep selling games. Stop whining about people sharing with each other. Or, if you like whining so much, maybe do some polls and find out what the REAL reason people don't want to give you money for your work is.

      You like watching David Perry? Oh. You watched him make Earthworm Jim, then, I guess? That was pretty impressive, that character really entered society. Let's see what he did after that... OH! It was all derivative crud. Maybe you should stop following game developers around and thinking their shit smells good, and get a clue.

    2. Re:David Perry is a visionary. by CDarklock · · Score: 1

      > People don't want to whip out their credit card in midgame
      > and use it to buy a +3 sword of shiny metal bits. At least
      > I don't.

      Oh, just admit you're a thief and will never buy anything you can steal. We all know that's what you're really saying, so drop the self-righteous crap.

      --
      Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
    3. Re:David Perry is a visionary. by descil · · Score: 1

      LOL you're so right...

      but on the other hand I do occasionally then buy it, if it was any good. I am a programmer, after all, I have to have some sympathy... but not for back-asswards models trying to "convince" players to pay for something. It will just be cracked. There's only one way to stop that, which is by making your game impossible to crack. And that's pretty much impossible unless you have a game server - in which case you're going to want to go subscription model to pay for the bandwidth anyway.

      oh yeah, and I really was saying that David Perry is an idiot. I'm into games for the immersion: if it makes me think about the real world and how broke I am, I'm not going to play it.

    4. Re:David Perry is a visionary. by CDarklock · · Score: 1

      > back-asswards models trying to "convince" players to pay for something.

      That's the problem with modern microtransaction systems: the extras aren't REALLY optional, they're essential. If you don't have them, the game sucks.

      That has to change. If we're going to have a microtransaction model that works, it has to be things people WANT, but don't NEED. Perry's very clear about this in what little he says during the article, and I seriously doubt he's proposing that traditional game development will disappear. You've just got recency bias - you can't believe that what Perry's talking about isn't what you've already seen, because you've just seen it.

      --
      Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
  64. term by Tom · · Score: 1

    (And if anyone has a favorite replacement term for "piracy," in the context of electronic copyright violation, please suggest it below.)

    Well, while we're at it with the silly ones:

    Monopoly Competition

    Copyright is just a state-granted distribution monopoly. "Piracy" is the competition where there can be no legal one.

    Yes, it's ridiculous. Or is it? When's the last time you bought a game from the developer? Mine was DEFCON, and that was at least 18 months ago. The games industry isn't that different from the music industry - a small group of large distributors holds the keys. It's not quite the same, as the roles are different, there are less developers than bands and they are often fairly large companies themselves. Also, since they are companies, the distributors often own them, instead of only practically owning them through crazy contracts.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:term by Standard+User+79 · · Score: 1

      Distribution is very complicated and they incur a very high risk. Thats why developers (and bands) are happy to sign their life away to them.

    2. Re:term by Tom · · Score: 1

      Oh, I have absolutely no problem with distributors being distributors.

      I wonder, however, why they are always exclusive. I can buy the same food, DVD player or clothes in dozens of different shops and from different distributors. In that markets, there is usually a link between distributors and shops, not distributors and producers.

      Why can't I buy Spore from both EA and Sony, for example? They could package and prize it differently, or something. There's no natural law that says the channel has to be 1:1 all the way down.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  65. It's copyright rape. by metamatic · · Score: 1

    If you're going to be dishonest and call it 'stealing', why not go all the way?

    It's copyright rape. PirateBay is raping movies. Don't rape music. See? Even more spuriously emotive.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  66. Viral Marketing and Distribution by yoinkityboinkity · · Score: 1

    I believe the pirate marketing model has been touted as being responsible for the popularity of DOS and early Windows.

  67. Keep piracy, but change the connotation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It makes no sense to change a word because of the connotations. The connotation is caused by how the word is used. I suggest we stick with piracy, but make the connotation more accurate by using it whenever it applies.

    I think I'll go read a book I pirated from the library.

  68. Stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're right; for far too long people have been using 'stealing' in a narrow-minded and incorrect manner, referring only to physical theft such as shoplifting. We must rectify this. Therefore, I propose the following terms all be rightfully called stealing:

    Copyright Infringement - The perpetrator gains something they would normally have to pay for, and are therefore a thief. (By this same token, using Linux also makes one a thief)
    Murder - It's just a fancy word for stealing the victims life.
    Rape - This is just another word to make "stealing access to someone's genitals" sound less villainous than it truly is.
    Assault - Where did their lack of pain and injury go? That's right, it was stolen.
    Drug Use - Given the amount of money the US government has spent attempting to abolish drug use, it's prevalence makes them look incompetent and people lose respect for them. Therefore, every time someone uses drugs they are stealing the governments competence and respect.
    Jaywalking - The drivers can't use that part of the road when someone walks across it. Their access to the road is being stolen!
    Avoiding Advertisements - Companies spend significant amounts of money advertising products, so when you skip those advertisements it's the same as stealing that money from them. Who cares if you don't use javascript/flash. It's your duty as a citizen to install and activate those features to properly view advertisements. Unless, of course, you're nothing more than a dirty thief.
    Not Giving me Money - Do you have any idea how much money I could have right now if all of you sent me all your money? I'm not sure of the exact amount, but I'm fairly confident that by not doing this that you as a group have stolen billions from me.

    Once society has it's terms right, we can finally begin prosecuting theft, the one true crime, the proper way: infinity billion years in jail (and/or an infinity quadrillion dollar fine) for each incident.

    Note: Theft's status as "the one true crime" certainly has absolutely nothing to due with being one of the only crimes to harm large corporations. Consumers need to stop making accusations like that before said accusations become a type of theft.

  69. not piracy by RCFleischer · · Score: 1

    How about "copying"? I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but it seems odd giving one of the least violent "crimes" imaginable the name of perhaps the most violent crimes short of genocide.

  70. yarr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pirate == User 2.0

  71. Look at the state of the art ... by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

    Instead of mediocre games that require incredibly expensive stuff few people have.

    Isn't gaming pretty much the only motivating factor there is nowadays to expand the boundaries of computer graphics? If you believe progress is a good thing, eye-candy on the desktop or better support in the graphics card itself for managing photos aren't factors that encourage people to upgrade their graphics, and by extension, encourage card manufacturers to improve their mass-production offerings.

    Better visual appeal in games does provide that encouragement, and the non-game developers can use that same horsepower in the applications that are meaningful to the rest of us. As a result, I can pay $50 for last-year's graphics card that gives me a much more powerful CAD system, photo management program, desktop eye-candy, Expose' , cubical virtual desktops, live icons, etc. And I'm very grateful to the gamers who will overspend on new graphics hardware to play the current and upcoming crop of games to subsidize that cost for the rest of us.

  72. How about "Copyright infringement"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And why the coda "int the context of electronic games"?

    a) they aren't any different from books
    b) they aren't electronic, they are software games.

  73. This is a new idea? by phyphor · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wow, the new idea is Free Games that make money through adverts, micropayments, donations or paid-for upgrades?

    Man, I should totally recommend that idea to the people behind KoL (started in 2003, and funded entirely by donations), Kongregate (entered beta last year and gets revenue from adverts), etc..

  74. You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Jesus_666 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Blizzard is entirely unlike most game companies. Blizzard values its customers and wants them to have as good a time as possible. They don't just abandon products, they release no-CD patches. They allow their customers to enter their CD key on the website and download the entire game (useful if you bought the PC version and now want to play on a Mac), even if said game was released eleven years ago. Heck, they still have tech support subsites for Lost Vikings and Rock N' Roll Racing - titles they released back when the company was still called Silicon & Synapse.

    Blizzard puts the customer first and only delivers polished products, release dated be damned. And that's why everyone loves them. Now compare that to, oh, just about everyone. It's a shame Looking Glass died, but the retail version of System Shock 2 was unbeatable for most people because a crucial window wasn't breakable. Piranha Bytes' The Gothic 3 gold master was so unready for production that they had to release the first patch on launch day. BioShock is a prime example of DRM gone bad^H^H^Hworse as many players are locked out of the game for too many reinstalls before they even played the game once - reinstalls which they accumulated trying to get the game to work.

    To put it like Zero Punctuation's Yahtzee might: The video game industry is a sea of vomit and that's the qualitative standard against which new games are measured. The better ones are usually very nice and pretty examples of vomit but they're still vomit. The few gems people like Blizzard release can't change the fact that we're waist-deep in gastric acid.

    --
    USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    1. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You don't have to demo a Blizzard game to know it's worth the money, either. Crap, that was your point.... anyway...

      I think part of the point is that the business model for the industry is broken. Paying 50 bucks to find out a game sucks really ... sucks. And currently, demos only seem to work from companies that are consistently good producers anyway. That could change.

      Yeah, I think some publishers are going to have to look at different business models for releasing and profiting from games. However, I think shareware may be a better model than ad support.

    2. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Blizzard is entirely unlike most game companies. Blizzard values its customers and wants them to have as good a time as possible.

      As long as its on their terms. Remember bnetd?

      *rest of blizzard PR fluff snipped*

    3. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Pascoea · · Score: 1

      To put it like Zero Punctuation's Yahtzee might: The video game industry is a sea of vomit and that's the qualitative standard against which new games are measured. The better ones are usually very nice and pretty examples of vomit but they're still vomit. The few gems people like Blizzard release can't change the fact that we're waist-deep in gastric acid.

      I don't like to point out the obvious... but you added punctuation to "zero punctuation's" quote. =)

    4. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck, they still have tech support subsites for Lost Vikings and Rock N' Roll Racing - titles they released back when the company was still called Silicon & Synapse.

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lost Vikings was not blizz, but it was Interplay, and Blizz just bought it when Interplay folded.

    5. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by MooseMuffin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      bnetd? The reverse engineered version of their free online service, minus the check for a legitimate copy of the game?

      How exactly can they justify not shutting that down?

    6. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by proxima · · Score: 1

      They allow their customers to enter their CD key on the website and download the entire game (useful if you bought the PC version and now want to play on a Mac),

      Does this exist for Starcraft? If so, I can't find a link. The OS X installer takes your CD key and asks for the Brood War CD, but it doesn't like my Windows-only version of Brood War.

      --
      "The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
    7. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Jesus_666 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Firstly, I merely wrote in a style I'd imagine Yahtzee to use. Secondly, he also uses punctuation. His punctuation is just too fast for the average listener to understand. It's also sugar free and contains more caffeine, hence the "Zero".

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    8. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Lost Vikings was developed by Silicon & Synapse who changed their name to Blizzard Entertainment in 1994. Interlay was the publisher. When Interplay folded Blizzard essentially self-published.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    9. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Try making an account on http://www.blizzard.com/account and giving them your CD keys. It should have StarCraft and Brood War.

      On a related notice, I'm really pissed I can't find my copies of SC and BW anymore.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    10. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by TheBig1 · · Score: 1

      Mod parent informative! I had no idea this was possible, but just tried and was able to get SC, WCIII, and Frozen Throne. Very cool!

    11. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by IdeaMan · · Score: 1

      That's nice, but lets not forget what they did to BnetD.
      They were one of the very early abusers of the DMCA hammer, and they used it to shut down the source of what could have been a huge thriving mod scene. That there are as many mods available for Diablo 2 now is in spite of the travesty the committed.

      - I bought my copy of D2, so don't accuse me of being a pirate. I'm a programmer and not being able to innovate on what was one of the most entertaining 3rd person online RPGs during that era caused me to intensely dislike the company. (Play http://anarchy-online.com/ instead of that noob fest which is WoW)

      --
      They ARE out to get you simply because They are in it for themselves and they don't care about you.
    12. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Devout_IPUite · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a good anti-piracy ploy to me. Don't do jack to stop people from pirating on their home computers. Make them hold legit copies to play online. Win win.

    13. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by JeremyBanks · · Score: 1

      Wow. Wowowwowowo. I did not know that that service existed.

      <3

    14. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      I still have to go to gamecopyworld or some site whenever I want to play Diablo II (purchased) unless I want to go digging for the CD. So much for the lack of "anti-piracy, screw the customer" approach.

    15. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Squaresoft has always released gold.

    16. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by mqduck · · Score: 1

      Heck, they still have tech support subsites for Lost Vikings and Rock N' Roll Racing

      FYI, that's tech support for the GBA versions of those games.

      --
      Property is theft.
    17. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by CycoChuck · · Score: 1

      I liked bnetd because I could play huge tournament maps in Starcraft in my lan parties. I don't like battlenet because I had 2 copies of Starcraft locked out from it because Blizzard claims I was cheating on it when some top rank punks complained that I beat them and I had to be cheating.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    18. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by CycoChuck · · Score: 1

      There are legit reasons for bnetd. I use to use it to run Starcraft tournaments in lan parties. Everyone there had a legit copy of Starcraft.

      --
      Windows is as solid as quicksand.
    19. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      bnetd? The reverse engineered version of their free online service,

      Yes, a free alternative to the ad supported (as in not really free unless you are willing to give up your mind) online service.

      Choice is good.

      check for a legitimate copy of the game?

      It is a little difficult to provide such functionality when the only one who could provide it is Blizzard who refused to. Besides, it isn't the job of a connection service to ensure that its users are using legitime copies.

      How exactly can they justify not shutting that down?

      Actually, I am amazed that bnetd was shut down. It shows just how insanly pro coorporate and anti free market the US is when providing an alternative connection service is made illegal.

    20. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      interplay didn't and haven't "folded" unless you mean sold the rights to Lost Vikings.

      Interplay is still doing business.

    21. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by DaedalusHKX · · Score: 1

      Actually, I am amazed that bnetd was shut down. It shows just how insanly pro coorporate and anti free market the US is when providing an alternative connection service is made illegal.

      You and I are in total agreement on that one.

      --
      " What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
    22. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      True. The parent (and I, in a sibling post) incorrectly used "folded" where "got rid of its publishing branch" would be correct. However, given Interplay's history one could say that they have been in the process of slowly dying ever since 1998.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    23. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is this blizzard of which you speak? Oh, you mean Activision/Vivendi :-)

      Vivendi, the company that brought you the Paris sewage system and Connex trains (the sewage being more regular than the trains)... no worries for customer service there then!

    24. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by DJNW · · Score: 1

      you are aware that the latest patch removed the need to have the CD in, right?

    25. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by brkello · · Score: 1

      There is like, what, one, two banners that are displayed and only in an area that you see for two seconds before you join a game. Oh yes, I am giving up my mind! How they control us!

      So you expect Blizzard to give their mechanism to validate keys to anyone that wants to reverse engineer their products? Do you know how stupid and unreasonable it sounds?

      bnetd was a tool that people used to run illegitimate copies of Blizzard software yet still enjoy the benefits of online play. If you were a stockholder in Blizzard, you would want this shut down. If you were a developer of SC/WC, you would want this shut down. If you were a reasonable person, you would understand why any business would want to prevent this. It has nothing to do with anti free market, it has to do with people breaking the law so that they don't have to pay a good company what they should. This isn't a company that created their own RTS and is competing against blizzard.

      Really, you bnetd supporters need to wake up. You all seem to have the inability to put yourself in the shoes of people who develop software. You come off as arrogant and selfish. How dare a company make profit on a quality product! I really hope some day people damage your income illegally. I am sure you will just sit by and let them do it, right?

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    26. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      There is like, what, one, two banners that are displayed and only in an area that you see for two seconds before you join a game. Oh yes, I am giving up my mind! How they control us!

      And bnetd has 0 banners, meaning that it is the better product. Of course, that is the real truth about coorporations. They don't want to provide the best possible product because it isn't in their own interest.

      So you expect Blizzard to give their mechanism to validate keys to anyone that wants to reverse engineer their products? Do you know how stupid and unreasonable it sounds?

      Of course it is unreasonable. But so is the opposite, to ban a software because it doesn't look at the license keys in a way that it can't know how before connecting two players together.

      bnetd was a tool that people used to run illegitimate copies of Blizzard software yet still enjoy the benefits of online play.

      And to run legal copies copies in environments where internet access wasn't availible. a.k.a. lan parties.

      And to play on the internet with banned keys. Another reason why the battle.net legally enforced monopoly is pure evil. Oh, I fully support the right of Blizzard to ban players. I however equally support the right of those players to play on other servers that isn't under Blizzards control.

      If you were a stockholder in Blizzard, you would want this shut down

      Of course. And if I was a hardcore muslim I would want all atheists converted or executed.

      If you were a reasonable person, you would understand why any business would want to prevent this

      Understand yes. I also understand why hardcore muslims want to kill me, but that doesn't mean that I am going to let them trample on my rights.

      It has nothing to do with anti free market,

      It has all to do with the free market. When only one company is allowed to perform a service it isn't a free market. Battle.net doesn't work on LANs, and it doesn't allow play with banned keys. That makes it an obviously inferior product.

      It isn't strange that some people developed a better server.

      This isn't a company that created their own RTS and is competing against blizzard.

      No, it is a company (ok, volunteers) that created their own superior connection service and are competing against blizzard.

      You all seem to have the inability to put yourself in the shoes of people who develop software.

      I really feel those poor bnetd developers that was forced to stop developing their software because of a lawsuit from an immoral coorporation (sorry about the tautology). Oh, you weren't talking about those developers...They don't matter to you?...Hypocrite.

      And I also feel for all those who got banned by blizzard and can't play on the internet any longer. OK, actually I don't because I despise cheaters, but I still protect their rights, because I know what happens when you only look after yourself.

      You come off as arrogant and selfish

      You come off as extremly arrogant and selfish.

      How dare a company make profit on a quality product!

      Oh, I have no problem with them making a profit. I do have a problem with them shutting down another product to make even more profit while reinforcing their dictatorial control. (because control is very important to those in power. They are simply addicted to it)

      If it was only pirates using bnetd you would atleast have a point to stand on, but it far from isn't.

      I really hope some day people damage your income illegally. I am sure you will just sit by and let them do it, right?

      It is a bigger chance that people will damage my income legally. That seems to be all that coorporations are doing nowadays.

      And btw, no bnetd developer damaged Blizzards

    27. Re:You can't compare Blizzard to most of the rest by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Not until now. Diablo is a "16 hour marathon every 9-12 months" type game for me. Play it non stop for a weekend, then forget it exists.

  75. This is Amazing by trongey · · Score: 1

    Somebody has discovered that if you give something away free to everyone then people won't steal it. Simply brilliant. Can we get a Nobel prize for this guy?

    --
    You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
  76. analogies by micromuncher · · Score: 1

    An alternative revenue model does not obviate theft as a crime.

    Saying the solution to piracy is making games free is like saying the solution to murder is making it legal.

    I know, there is that alternative revenue model, so its not really free, but its like giving drugs to junkies and charging for the needle.

    --
    /\/\icro/\/\uncher
  77. The reason why a lot of PC games don't sell by propanol · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... is because they're based on the 'technology first, everything else second' formula that's been the defacto standard for PC game development since the late nineties, which was the point where the costs were starting to rise and publishers losing interest in being innovative, instead opting for easy tried-and-true-but-with-more-powerful-technology cash-ins. This worked as long as people were interested in upgrading their hardware not only for games but also to improve their overall computer usage experience, but since the advent of Windows XP (plus service packs) and the P4/Athlon XP generation of CPUs many users have found themselves able to carry out their computer-related activities well enough not to need further upgrades.

    The PC gaming market is effectively destroying itself by sticking to this paradigm, because the amount of people who own top-end hardware isn't going to increase - someone who plays games and is looking to buy a PC today isn't going to opt for one with a fancy GPU from Nvidia or ATI that's able to run top-end PC games because even if a particular game isn't available for anything but the PC you can for most part find console games with comparable technology and playability. The PC doesn't have the technological advantage it used to have over consoles or at least it doesn't play as much of a role anymore because even if Crysis looks nicer than, say, Gears of War, for most people the latter is going to be good enough. Graphics in games have advanced to the point where they have become a commodity, and when people will no longer latch on to your game because it's technologically superior because your competitors offer something that might be somewhat inferior but still good enough you have get to them by other means. So far the gaming industry's reacted kind of similar to the music industry (where the music is a commodity as it's all seemingly factory produced) in the face of this - more focus on branding and controlling news- and retail outlets (hence the increase lately in reports of "professional reviewers" being restricted in terms of what they're allowed to print in reviews).

    What most of PC game developers or former PC game developers refuse to admit to is that there's a huge market beyond the one that finds your technology the most appealing aspect of your game. The Sims and subsequent sequels proved it existed. People who shuffle The Sims, WoW etc. into their own categories as phenomenon that cannot be repeated simply don't understand that these games were and continue to be successful because they appeal to people by having good gameplay, which is far more universal than having cutting edge technology. And contrary to what these people think, their success can be repeated - but in order to do so you need innovative and creative gameplay and creating such takes talent; something the video game industry as a whole is surprisingly devoid of.

  78. Seems like a good way to combat piracy... by Shade+of+Pyrrhus · · Score: 1

    I've always liked this method of combating piracy. Make a game that anyone can download, but provide a service to use the game, or provide some extra features/goodies for people who want to pay extra. I'm not a big fan of giving significant gameplay advantages to people who pay, however I would lean more towards graphical improvements for characters, etc - that's just my own bias as a player. The whole new Battlefield game with advertising seems like a winner, as well. Advertisers are happy, game-developers are happy, and customers just need to blow up that sign showing a product.

    I guess one possible problem I could envision with this is that developing the game client usually takes more time than developing the server (at least for me, with a nice server architecture already in place). If people grab the client, modify it and host their own private game, this could make devs want to spend less time making a nice client. Maybe? I don't know.

  79. I bought UnderMountain by davidtb · · Score: 1

    If anyone has a right to Piracy, I do, That game Suct on so many levels, literally.

  80. Term for "piracy" by Will+Is+A+Douche · · Score: 1

    I prefer to think of it as "absconding" with someone else's data, as in "Have you played the new video game from (major developer)?", "Yes, I absconded with it from a bit torrent tracker and have enjoyed playing it." Or maybe "Have you seen the new Hellboy?" "Yeah, I absconded with a DVD-rip and skipped the theaters. Had I gone I would have wanted my ten bucks back."

    1. Re:Term for "piracy" by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      How about Willful Acquisition of Licensed Content (WALC).

      Then all those there pirates can WALC the PLANK (Product License Assignments Never Keep).

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  81. Information doesn't want to be free by sm62704 · · Score: 1

    But when it isn't, neither are you.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    1. Re:Information doesn't want to be free by descil · · Score: 1

      How do you figure that information doesn't want to be free? That doesn't make sense. Information is free to start with, people love sharing information, and reliably locking information up is next to impossible.

      Furthermore, ignorance is actually quite liberating. ;)

    2. Re:Information doesn't want to be free by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      Information doesn't want anything. As far as anyone can tell, only organisms with brains are capable of wanting.

      And as to ignorance being liberating, in my 56 years I've never found that to be the case.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    3. Re:Information doesn't want to be free by descil · · Score: 1

      No, wanting is not limited to organisms with brains. Plants want water, and they have no brains. Water wants water(you know, surface tension thing, water clings to other water), and it's not even an organism!

      Cities, corporations, and other collectives also have desires too, which we should all be very wary of, as they're generally worse than AIs.

      Congratulations on 56 years of ignorance :D

    4. Re:Information doesn't want to be free by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      Cities, corporations, and other collectives also have desires too

      But they're made of people (or reasonable facimiles thereof).

      Congratulations on 56 years of ignorance :D

      Ignorance does have one advantage: you get the joy of learning!

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    5. Re:Information doesn't want to be free by descil · · Score: 1

      <3 learning, apparently my city's desire is to learn, according to a recent news item. The schools are teaching ignorance so it makes sense!

      ... gonna make me get all transcendentalist in the middle of coding ...

      You know how people have the supposed ability to think in the best interests of each other? Like you can think, hm what would my wife want for her birthday. Well city council does that too, honest. "What would be best for the city?" So in effect we are the creators of a city's desires but those desires differ in nature and form from those of a human?

      People keep saying cities aren't alive... but they have all the characteristics of life! It's not single-human life, but thank god - I don't want my city sleeping around! Er... well... I guess it's okay, I just don't want to know about it... ignorance is bliss!

  82. 1 copy pirated != 1 less copy sold by jlf278 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's ridiculous to believe that people only illegally download content they would normally have purchased. I.E. - spore creature creator looked fun, so I DL the trial, but was annoyed by at the few parts. So I looked for a bootleg, but soon gave up. I DIDN'T then go buy it for $10, because I didn't really care. If I had found a bootleg, obviously that would not have deprived anyone of $$$. In fact, it might have led me to buy the full version when released.

    In a perfect world everything's free and people are so honest and civil-minded that they donate their money to content provider's as appropriate. blah blah blah. Personally, the system we have seems just fine. Pirating is heavily skewed towards the younger and less affluent anyway.

  83. Re:Glad to be of service. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, it isn't, because you know perfectly well that copyright infringement isn't theft.

    And no, my saying that doesn't imply that I'm a pirate myself or that I think copyright infringement is OK or that INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE MAN or any of those other bullshit strawman arguments you're thinking of.

    And yes, that IS what you were thinking.

  84. sins of a solar empire by aepervius · · Score: 1

    No DRM. But if you want update/additional content => you need to be registered. AFAIK the CEO of the company making sins of a solar empire even said the same (DRM is stupid and costly)

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  85. Make Better Games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the game is good enough, people buy it. Look at WoW, more than 10 million subscribers. And its worth paying the oney for if you like that kind of thing. I can also garantee that Starcraft 2 will sell well over a million copies. Blizzard make good games. Unlike EA, they don't just mass publish tonnes of stuff, which more often than not gets pirated so people can play it for the 3 hours of fun its worth. I wont pay Eur50 for 3 hours thanks, so I just lost interest in a lot of games. Thankfully Blizzard and Valve still keep producing top pc games, and we can only hope that the decline in gaming on pc's results in better quality games maybe even ones that will reach a broader market ( linux + mac ). On that note, most linux and mac users would buy a decent game, and I know a lot of linux UT and Quake players, who buy their games. I know I havent run WoW, Diablo 2, Warcraft 3 or Starcraft on Windows in a long time.

  86. Just ask Richard Stallman by Stuufman · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Just ask Richard Stallman by Jasonjk74 · · Score: 1

      If you want a term to replace piracy.

      Stallman sounds like a demented Mr. Rogers. "Sharing with your neighbor."

  87. Need better Policies by butchcassidy1717 · · Score: 0

    As far as the "no return policy", it is non-sense, especially when it comes to console games. The reason I say this is because if you wanted to make an illegal copy of it, you could just go out and rent it, or use your buddies.
    Since with a console you have the ability to rent a game, why should you not have the option to return it if it sucks. Because it would be much easier to pirate it via other means.
    Ok, you could make the argument that some one will beat it and then return it. That is a good a argument and very true, so have a 15 day, if this game sucks get your money back policy. This might encourage gaming companies to make good games and have the companies that are wasting time and money making crappy games close.

    1. Re:Need better Policies by baxissimo · · Score: 1

      I thought this was the whole purpose of reviews. You read some reviews before you go shopping and then you simply don't buy it if everyone says it sucks.

      Really, I don't understand why you think you should be able to return a game just because it sucks. I can't return a book if it turns out to have a lame ending. I can't return a movie if the director turns out to be a talentless hack. If the game is crashing every 30 minutes, ok, but just because you didn't find the game entertaining enough is not enough of a reason. Stores with a liberal return policy are doing you a favor -- there is no constitutional right to return merchandise for a full refund at your whim.

  88. A high-end PC is for more than gaming by dfm3 · · Score: 1

    Why would anyone pay over a thousand dollars to play games equivalent to games they would play on a console for much less?

    Because, for some people (myself included), having a high-end computer is useful for more than just gaming.

    I do alot of amateur video work as a hobby in my spare time, and rendering video at a decent speed requires an impressive amount of computing power (not to mention storage). I'm also into photography, and use the computer as my primary media center and DVD player. For me, gaming was almost an afterthought, but it made sense to spend about $150 more on a fancier graphics card than to buy a dedicated console.

  89. This certainly works for certain environments by Quirkz · · Score: 1

    I've been playing a game called Kingdom of Loathing for several years now which works on this model. Play is completely free, advertising is nonexistent, but an optional donation system allows you to acquire some "nicer" stuff. There's an active in-game trading system, so if you earn enough game money you can get those items without donating, either. In this case the tradeoff is it's a VERY low-tech browser-based game (with humorous stick-figure art and exceptionally good writing) made by a small team, so the business setup is vastly different from a traditional game. Still, it works fantastically for them, and it seems to work reasonably well for some other copycat games as well.

  90. I actually read the article for a change by holophrastic · · Score: 1

    ...and it says, simply, that companies will charge for in-game crap -- like a better t-shirt on your character, or a magic sword -- instead of charging for the game itself.

    Bravo, so now instead of illegally downloading a game you didn't pay for, you'll illegally download a magic sword that you didn't pay for. Congrats. Now, instead of stealing $60 worth of game, you'll be stealing $0.50 worth of sword.

    Now it's nothing more than petty theft. Which means that slowly, but surely, the penalty for stealing that magic sword or pretty t-shirt will be raised to the same point as stealing that game. Which, based on how most legal systems work, means that when a 10-year old shoplifts a $2 candy bar, they'll be looking at ten years in jail, or some other rediculous penalty designed to discourage video game piracy and now surrounding all petty theft.

    That's just great.

    1. Re:I actually read the article for a change by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      There's no such thing as theft when it comes to digital dealings, at least in your "i steal a sword" example.

      They'll just bust you on anti-hacking law for you breaking a EULA.

      --
    2. Re:I actually read the article for a change by descil · · Score: 1

      Actually we'll just patch the game to let you get the swords for in-game money. We think you'll find it's a better game for not disrupting your suspended disbelief.

      -Your Friends

    3. Re:I actually read the article for a change by descil · · Score: 1

      Intellectual property theft is still theft, sorry.

      EULA's on the other hand are just meant to scare you, and have virtually no legal worth.

    4. Re:I actually read the article for a change by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      O rly?

      Quoth Wikipedia:

      In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. As a term, it is used as shorthand for all major crimes against property, encompassing offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, mugging, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception) and sometimes criminal conversion. In some jurisdictions, theft is considered to be synonymous with larceny; in others, theft has replaced larceny.

      There is no such thing as Intuhlektual Property anyways. I know of copyrights, patents, and trademarks. And unless you steal physical media (tape backup or CDs) it's NOT THEFT. In fact stealing a CD from Wal-mart is not copyright infringing because the "license" travels with the media.

      Frankly, you sound like a moron. With that "IP theft is theft" quite easily being proved wrong, you have proved your stupidity.

      --
    5. Re:I actually read the article for a change by descil · · Score: 1

      Hi :) when you take something that someone doesn't want you to have, it's stealing! Doesn't matter what wikipedia (LOL you quoted wikipedia!) or any other reference will tell you. Stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter what the law says, that's just the technical definition. People don't really care or even know the same things about technical definitions, as you can see expressed rampantly throughout this misinformed discussion.

      And as for there being no such thing as intellectual property, let's look at what wiktionary has to say about morons:

      moron (plural morons) - A person who makes uncool, unfunny, uninteresting, or irrelevant (see lame) attempts to impress others and draw attention to himself, especially in a flawed attempt to act like someone else.

      Good job telling me that the law is truth and there's no such thing as reality. You've done well in your attempts to draw attention, friend moron! Congrats. ;)

    6. Re:I actually read the article for a change by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Actually, "stealing" has nothing to do with theft of any kind. "stealing" is simply any action taken stealthily. For example, one can steal away into the night without taking anything from anybody.

      English fun aside, I have no problem with the theft of intellectual property being illegal, I'm very much in support of that -- I create a lot of intellectual property.

      However, there must be a line drawn and a distinction made between taking something and depriving another of what they used to have. Bluntly, there has to be a big difference between taking my intellectual property and taking my real property.

      That's not to say that one is more or less valuable than the other. However, taking my car leaves me without my car. Copying my novel only leaves me without the profit that I would earn by selling that novel to you (and to those to whom you've distributed it). That may certainly be more valuable than my car, but it's still very very different. It's my potential versus my actual property.

      Which of course brings the boundary case of when it's something that I would not be selling, in which case your copying it takes nothing away from me, and improves your life. I can certainly appreciate those who would say that I shouldn't mind, and that indeed it improves society. But I choose to side with those that would allow me to change my mind and to sell it next year.

      But still, very different from my car.

  91. Media Content Abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with the term piracy, is that it has many meanings, depending on what is being done

    There is downloading, uploading (distribution), cracking DRM/locks, altering the software etc...

    Each of those violations can technically have their own name.

    The name piracy is in many ways wrong, as some one has pointed out, none of the acts above is raiding and looting ships.

    Illegal sharing(is a bit of a paradox, because most sharing is encouraged in society, it is called helping someone).

    Omit sharing with distribution and it cuts out the two sided nature of sharing.

    If you try to say that it is a contract/license agreement violation, where the sharer has broken the contract/agreement with the rights holder. It just becomes too neutral.

    Media crime/violation, is a little less neutral.

    Media Content Abuse (violation or crime), is my favorite, as it can be shortened to MCA (MCV, MCC), which is easy to remember. It has all facets of the crimes in the name and isn't as prejudiced, as the term piracy.

    I would prefer a single word to describe it, like piracy, just not as hard hitting, after all there are many sides to the story.

    One little thing, I am not an anonymous coward, just not bothered to go through the actions of signing up at every single site.

  92. Sorry, by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

    but there are so many free games, I simply cannot see the point in PAYING for games. There are free-to-play internet games. There are open source games. There is abandonware. Games, games, games. I could sit down and play a different game each day for MONTHS, all free, and not come back to the same game. So many free games to choose from..... What, exactly, do the game software people offer us? Well - for the latest game to run on my computer, I will have to replace my video card, if I want the full video effects. And, if I'm going to do that, I might as well upgrade the CPU. Ooops, the newest CPU will require a MOBO, and I might as well add some extra memory. Might as well just buy a new computer, huh? Oh, wait, I've fallen into the trap!! The games become more and more demanding of high-end hardware, and like a lemming, I just HAVE to have the latest game, which forces me to buy a new computer almost every year. IMHO, it's just a stupid fad that has hung on to long already. If/when the games makers come up with something new and different, I may take a look at it. Til then, I'll play free games. Actually, though, most of my gaming is online, and I have upgraded my accounts to paid accounts. The graphics may be nothing to brag about, but I play against real people, where intelligence is required, as opposed to fast reflexes, luck, or whatever else one may need to beat a "computer" game. I will also note, that one of man's greatest inventions is pretty much wasted, if all that it is used for is gaming........ Download BOINC, and put your machine to work, searching for cures for diseases, huh? http://boinc.berkeley.edu/

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  93. Content Liberator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Content Liberator... :D

  94. Crazy New Internet Phenomenon... by AmishElvis · · Score: 1

    Most Pirates I have heard about download it becasue they aren't sure about it, and paying 60 bucks for something you can't return is a little much.

    On the Internet they have these things called "game reviews." What happens is, people play the game, then write about what it is like, and post it on their website. I have found that reading these "game reviews" is a less illegal way of learning about a game before buying it.

    1. Re:Crazy New Internet Phenomenon... by Minozake · · Score: 1

      Game reviews will never replace the actual experience with a game. I've found that I've absolutely hated games that had great reviews, even on Gamefaqs (I barfed at Bioshock). And then I've absolutely loved games that got bombed reviews.

      And then most reviews have criteria I don't give two shits about (graphics, and if the gameplay is good enough, story can be neglected).

      If I like a game that I've pirated, I will buy it. If I don't, I get more disk space. Simple as that. If the developers can't make good enough games, then they don't deserve my money.

      --
      http://sourcemage.org/ - Have fun :)
    2. Re:Crazy New Internet Phenomenon... by LingNoi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the Internet they have these things called "game reviews."

      Except writing a bad game review gets you fired so they're not at all accurate and doesn't give you any idea how it will play on your computer, xbox or TV screen.

      The history of game reviews is littered with bribery and it's still the case. Reviews are complete bullshit.

    3. Re:Crazy New Internet Phenomenon... by AmishElvis · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you can hold up one bad review website as representative of all game reviews.

    4. Re:Crazy New Internet Phenomenon... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Except writing a bad game review gets you fired so they're not at all accurate and doesn't give you any idea how it will play on your computer, xbox or TV screen.

      Professional reviews are crap for a variety of reasons. It's better to read reviews of actual gamers. Reading a couple of those gives you a much better idea of what's good about a game, what's bad about it, and what's simply wrong with it.

  95. Nothing to see here... by Schnapple · · Score: 1
  96. Screw subscriptions. by znerk · · Score: 1

    Valve has a nice vision:

    Gotta love Valve. And Blizzard.

    The only issue I have with this is that game companies go under, sometimes. Or are bought by other companies. Or stop supporting their product 10 or 15 years down the road. To be completely honest, it frightened me just the other day when I thought about my Steam games disappearing when Valve quits supporting them. I won't be giving Valve any more of my money, because of that. At least, not until some clever pirate shows me a way to install and play Halflife (1 or 2) without phoning home to a Steam server that may or may not be there in 10 years.

    WoW is slightly different, although Blizzard's (and other game companies') tactics chap my hide for a different reason. I don't mind paying $15 a month to play online, with paid moderators whose job it is to make sure the game runs smoothly for all participants, and constant patching to keep the exploits to a minimum. Blizzard puts out a fine product, and I applaud that. The issue I have with it is... why do I have to pay $50 for a game, and *then* pay a subscription fee for the right to play it? Pick one, please. Either charge me for the privilege of playing, or charge me for a pretty box and shiny disk. Don't do both. Feels too much like paying for my cake and not getting to eat it anyway. And don't think I'm not a WoW addict... I've got a 70 undead 'lock, and I have mid-range toons on several servers. On two servers, I'm not allowed to make any more toons without deleting some. I managed to kick the habit after only 2 years of die-hard playing, and damned if they're not coming out with another expansion to make me crack out and buy the game *again* (the expansion pack, at least) later this year, so I can grind my way up to 80.

    Of course, with the money flowing constantly just so I can jump on a WoW server every once in a while, Blizzard's not going anywhere, so I'm not worried about them... yet. Guild Wars, on the other hand, got out of hand long ago, and if anyone wants to purchase my Collector's Edition account (with the pre-order weapons and the special pets), just make a reasonable offer.

    If I couldn't whip out my old copies of Master of Orion, Diablo, Quake 3 Arena, Unreal Tournament, or Warcraft: Orcs and Humans every couple of years to relive my "glory days", I would be rather upset. Why, just a few months ago I beat MoO for the first time (with the Humans, anyway). What ever happened to single-player games with replay value?

    The same goes for my old copies of Zelda and Zelda 2 (in the gold cartridges, mind you), Final Fantasy (the first one, not those anime-fests that people think are Final Fantasy nowadays), or Dragon Warrior (again, the very first one, not the mutations that occured later). Admittedly, No one is going to take away my rights to play those games on my 20-year old NES, but what happens when the hardware dies? That newfangled famicom duplex, or whatever it's called... yeah, sure, but why can't I plug my NES Advantage controllers into it? And don't get me started on the insanity of Nintendo throwing that group of counterfeiters in NEw Jersey into the slammer for causing them "millions of dollars in lost revenues"... they didn't even produce the original NES anymore, how were they losing money by these guys producing something they no longer sold?

    I keep an old Pentium II machine around the house with Win95 installed on it (gods, no, it's not on the network) so that my wife can play Lemmings once in a blue moon... and just try and find a 5.25" floppy disk drive in today's market. Matter of fact, half the places I used to go for random "common" items don't even carry them anymore. Blank cassettes, blank VHS tapes, parallel cables, for crying out loud! How long before we can't buy blank CD/DVD media anymore?

    But back to my point: you can't subscribe to a game company without the twinge of fear that someday, you won't be able to play their "activated online" game anymore.

    This is also a str

    --
    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
    1. Re:Screw subscriptions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Valve will "unlock" their games if they ever stop supporting steam. Sorry I'm too lazy to find a link right now, but I don't think you should stop buying from Steam if that's the only reason.

  97. Not free, online. by moniker127 · · Score: 1

    I dont think that games for PC will be free. I think that yes, we are going through a shift, but that isnt the shift we are going through. Multiplayer games - PCS Single player games - Consoles Most computer games are online already. This is what the majority of the market has done in order to stop piracy. Sure, you can also pirate a MMO by hosting your own server, but that takes resources, and extensive knowledge of the game/programming in general, not to mention a lot of work.

  98. Free Game Software is the Correct Business Model by R2D5 · · Score: 1

    Just ask Blizzard Entertainment. "World of Warcraft currently holds 62% of the MMOG market at 10 million subscribers". (Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft). Yes, with over 6 million paying $14.99 per month, you can give the software away for free. That business model is working well for Blizzard.

  99. A name for the game companies that sell crap? by Mistshadow2k4 · · Score: 1

    It works both ways -- and if it doesn't, it's going to for me anyhow. (I'm not in a good mood today.) If the game companies are allowed to indulge in name-calling people who rip them off, what name do we get to call the game companies that rip people off? The laws aside (they only enforce the good for the game companies), why should they be allowed to get away with making crappy games that you can't return, loading their games with DRM, that if it doesn't screw up your computer (remember Starforce?), is designed to to make you buy a second copy of the game, thus paying them twice for the same product? But nooooo, it's all about the poor, poor game companies who get ripped off left and right. It's perfectly okay for them to rip us off, now isn't it? Frankly, I'm so sick of that kind of treatment from them, it's enough to drive me to pirate games more. If they didn't pull this crap continually and try to pass laws that prevent you from doing anything about it, I would care. Screw that. Like it or not, we're not going along with it. You rip people off, they rip you off. That's how it is and how it's going to be, no matter what you do. Sure, even if they did dump all this DRM and crap and start treating their customers decently there would still be people pirating the game, but that number would drop significantly -- and yes, I would bet my life on that because I do know how it is out there in gamer-land and pirate-land. Besides, their exorbitant prices on new games more than make up for any of the losses they keep imagining that they're suffering. Again, why should I care?

    --
    I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
  100. what a crock. by DragonTHC · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Games don't have to be free.

    And they will never get away with charging microtransactions to PC gamers.

    David Perry of Shiny Games is a moron.

    Make a decent product. Give us plenty of chances to view it. Give us ample opportunity and convenience to purchase it. If we like it, we will.

    Eliminate DRM. It obviously doesn't work. Sometimes it prevents your game from working properly.

    Use Steam!!!!! We do. Stop wasting your whole budget on marketing. We don't care about the TV commercials. We don't come to E3 to get posters.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  101. Piracy is wrong, mmkay? by Orig_Club_Soda · · Score: 1

    As one of the 10 people on Slashdot who speak out against piracy and this silly notion that you have a right to something just because you have access... [rate me as a troll, like you always do] ...I am annoyed by industries who cling to piracy as the major cause of their woes. There's a larger elephant in the room. Like quality or pricing.

  102. How pirating worked for me/pyro studios by xtracto · · Score: 1

    It was due to pirace (yaaar mate!) that I knew, played and bought "Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines", and later bought "Commandos 2: Men of Courage" and "Commandos: Destination Berlin".

    Therefore, pyro studios did get not 1 but 3 purchases due to me pirating (yaaar!) the first game installment.

    Of course, part of the reason why I bought the game, is because the game series is *really awesome* and completely different to any other game (similar but different to C&C wannabees) and also because the game were about USD$10 (or MXP$200) when I bought them.

    IMHO that IS the sweet spot for a game. $10, £5.

    --
    Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  103. Like dropping a house on a witch by spun · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Using someone else's wifi is stealing, "

    only if you don't have authorization. If the system lets you in by design, then you have authorization.
    The incoming house analogy will inevitably show how little the person knows about how computers communicate.

    Stealing wifi is like dropping a house on a witch. It will make strange looking midgets dance around with glee, and get her sister to send flying monkeys after you.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  104. replace the term 'homebrew', as well. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As long as you are replacing "piracy" with "stealing games"... you may as well do the same with "homebrew". Because very few people who mod their XBox360 are doing it so they can program their own version of PacMan.

  105. No shared-screen helps kill PC games by tepples · · Score: 1

    Sure, free games may solve game "piracy", but it doesn't address what is killing PC gaming. Which are A) Windows, B) Insane hardware requirements and C) Consoles.

    One "insane hardware requirement" that a lot of people don't think of is the requirement for one PC for each player. A four-player PC game could run in four tiled windows, each 960x540 pixels on a 1080p (premium HDTV) monitor or 640x360 pixels on a 720p (basic HDTV) monitor, so that my friends and I can play on the big screen like wii do with That Other Platform. Heck, some game designs don't even need the screen to be split, such as Bomberman, Smash TV, Street Fighter, and the like, because they show the entire arena at once. Yet apart from a few isolated cases such as Serious Sam and Lego Star Wars, the majority of PC game publishers insist on not allowing one computer's input devices to control more than one player character at the same time.

  106. User-generated game elements by tepples · · Score: 1

    A decade ago, PCs were at the top of the hill for superior graphics and networking for team playing. Now they aren't because HDTVs, internet connectivity and multicore proccesor consoles. There's no niche anymore.

    The niche of PCs includes anything with user-generated game elements. Comparatively few console games attempt much of that, apart from token efforts such as Xbox 360 games' custom soundtracks or the stage editor in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Certainly, a home user can't easily make a game with new rules from the ground up on a console.

  107. The only problem with Steam... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're stranded if Valve ever goes under.

    Which is why they should do like Blizzard did; enter your CDKey or whatever, and download your game. Or Steam allows you to play steam-downloaded games without "valve's blessing" for games that were released after a certain point (2-4 years sounds fair; most games at that point are like 20$)...

  108. Pirates have had their day... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    from now on let's call it "ninjacy".

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  109. Stealing is not amoral (in the absolute sense) by raftpeople · · Score: 1

    But in this case, the root of the activity is very different. Stealing a physical item is inherently amoral. Even in the total absence of government, stealing is wrong

    No, it's not. There are no absolute rules. Prior to all of the rules we made up for society (including rules related to physical items and rules related to information), all that existed was survival.

    1. Re:Stealing is not amoral (in the absolute sense) by Surt · · Score: 1

      Survival is still all that exists. It's just that it's a convenient mental shorthand to understand the law in order to avoid having gangs of people come and prevent you from procreating.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:Stealing is not amoral (in the absolute sense) by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Even my 2 year old hates it when someone takes something from her, but delights when someone else picks up on the random babble she emits and repeats it. I think you are being a bit disingenuous.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:Stealing is not amoral (in the absolute sense) by raftpeople · · Score: 1

      No, my point is that all of the rules we make are just that, rules we made up. Notions of intrinsic morality might enter into the discussion when creating laws, but the bottom line is that we make rules we think make sense for specific reasons. Which means that people who think "stealing" real property is bad but "stealing" copyrighted material is ok are really using faulty logic if they think one is more "real" and "natural" than the other, both are really based on rules we made up.

    4. Re:Stealing is not amoral (in the absolute sense) by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Ah - I misunderstood and I think I actually agree with you.

      My problem is this. Most of our laws exist for the "public good". We don't allow theft of physical things because otherwise individuals would be forced to defend their own property... we've been there, Afghanistan is there now - it sucks. You end up with Feudalism of some kind because you need a protector.

      It SHOULD be the same way with IP laws. They should be used as an incentive (like a tax break), where a balance is struck between enticing people to create more IP and the overall enrichment of culture as the IP is reused. Certainly Disney was once a fan of this as most of their most popular early cartoons were renditions of fresh-out-of-copyright fairy tales. We would not have had Disney's Snow White with our current 95-year copyright.

      Instead, copyright has been subverted into somehow protecting the rights of "IP owners", which is really none of society's concern... especially since copyright extends well beyond the original creator's death! Who exactly are we encouraging at this point? Certainly not corporations... they would NEVER make a 95-year business plan. I can see a non-utility planning ahead 5-20 years, but certainly no more than that. I would find it very hard to believe that Disney considers anything other than potential Box Office and first-pressing DVD receipts when it green lights a movie.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:Stealing is not amoral (in the absolute sense) by AllIGotWasThisNick · · Score: 1

      After a brief spin at a grocery store in the health department, I have to agree that many types of theft should not be prosecuted. These include (eg) stealing baby formula for your starving infant. I typically direct unenlightened folks such as the GP to Kohlberg's stages of moral development.

  110. Not everybody has always-on Internet at home by tepples · · Score: 1

    Also love Steam. It works.

    Steam is good for online multiplayer games. It's not so nice for single-player games or shared-screen multiplayer games, especially if you have to keep active a subscription to Internet access at your home just to be able to activate new Steam games purchased at retail.

  111. Is "steal" a legal term? by raftpeople · · Score: 1

    Not according to US law (yet). You can argue all you want about the way things should be, but the way things ARE, copyright violation is not stealing

    Are you saying that "stealing" is a legal term with an agreed upon legal definition? If it is not, then your statement is debatable.

    1. Re:Is "steal" a legal term? by descil · · Score: 1

      His statement is debatable anyway. As if legal definitions matter to the populace? But the lawyers aren't going to try to say you stole their software in court. They're going to say you violated their license or whatever else they want. If they're calling it 'stealing,' that's for the populace so they understand ("violated my license!" sounds too abstract). But in the court, they do have options, as is quite reasonable. Yarr.

  112. Call it what it is... by JetScootr · · Score: 1

    And if anyone has a favorite replacement term for "piracy,"
    infringement.
    It's what the constitution calls it. Why change it just cuz it's electronic?
    It's not stealing, looting, plundering, raping, etc, like the **AAholes would have it. Just infringement of the owner's exclusive right to copy.

    --
    Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
    1. Re:Call it what it is... by BPPG · · Score: 1

      mod parent up.

      Anyone who's read much Lawrence Lessig would understand why. It's not proper to call it stealing unless you download/copy it and then erase if from what you downloaded it from.

      --
      What's the value of information that you don't know?
  113. Impulse Buy by markswims2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Games don't need to be free, but if I'm going to pay $50-60 on a game, I need to know I will be getting my money's worth. Music and DVDs are the same way. If companies would cut the prices for these things to make them an impulse buy, everyone would be happy. I'm talking $5-7 Albums, $10 DVD, $15 Blu-ray (they were supposed to be THE SAME PRICE as DVDs when they were released anyways... way to lie Sony) and $10-20 on games. Buying a year-old product should be cheaper than the brand new one too. I've seen The Blues Brothers priced $20 on DVD. That's completely rediculous. People would buy more if they feel like they're getting it at a bargain price, and companies would reap the benefits of all those extra sales of those who wouldn't buy the product to begin with.

  114. Wakalixery. by argent · · Score: 1

    In honor of Richard Feynman, who can not have too many honors, I suggest waklixery.

    1. Re:Wakalixery. by Anomalyst · · Score: 1

      > I suggest waklixery
      Gets my vote

      --
      There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
  115. to make it free by suck_burners_rice · · Score: 1

    To make games free, game developers will have to figure out how to make money off free (as in both beer and speech) software, and it won't work like it does for servers and stuff. For software like, say, Apache or Linux or Samba or OpenVPN or whatever, you can give the software away for free and then charge for support. This works because some savvy businessman who wants to jump on the Open Source bandwagon but doesn't have the skill or time to learn this stuff (he needs to run his business, pay his employees and his bills, and make money, after all), so he hires some geeked out 1337 h4x0rz to deal with these issues, get his system working the way his business needs it, and contribute bug fixes and whatnot back to the community. But it won't work for games because nobody is going to pay for support to get the thing up and running or implement business rules or that sort of thing. So there will have to be something else that people have to pay for, and if it can't be content and it can't be service, then what can it be? Maybe hardware. Maybe the game companies will have to become fabless semiconductor companies that build anything from bitchen new graphics processors to entire video game consoles. These companies would then write FOSS drivers and games to demonstrate the hardware, to cause people to buy the hardware (to play the games at full speed and quality), etc. I don't know how sustainable such a business model would be, but I can tell you that gamers go out and spend beaucoup dollars/euros/pounds/yen/shekels on all kinds of fancy hardware to run the games they pirate, er, borrow... so maybe such a thing could work.

    --
    McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
  116. Go the Radiohead Route - Free and Profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is always the paradoxical, yet brilliant radiohead solution - Release it for free, but accept monetary values of any sort. Incredible amounts of distribution, and surprisingly astronomical amounts of revenue. Everyone is happy.

  117. Two Words: Enemy Territory by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Best game ever. Free.

    Hey it got me to buy Quake Wars years later...

  118. Stealing IS accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you take a copy but don't pay for it, you have deprived the original owner their profits. It is STOLEN. Once it is paid for, it ceases to be considered STOLEN property. Don't give be this bullshit story that you're "test-driving" it to see if it's worth buying, and eventually will pay for it. Until it is paid for, it is STOLEN. What is so hard for you fuckers to see about that? I'm tired of seeing your bullshit argument modded up.

    I'd love to see you try to use that argument in a court of law.

    1. Re:Stealing IS accurate by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "Don't give be this bullshit story that you're "test-driving" it to see if it's worth buying"

      Please point out where I said anything other than that they are different. Fuck off.

      "I'd love to see you try to use that argument in a court of law."

      Thankfully, courts of law, unlike your retarded self, know the difference between copyright infringement and theft.

      Information under copyright is a different sort of property to physical property. That is why we have different laws. Get some fucking IP education.

    2. Re:Stealing IS accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please point out where I said anything other than that they are different. Fuck off.

      You're the one regurgitating standard boilerplate, so you should know the "test driving" excuse is all part of the package, fuck you very much.

      Thankfully, courts of law, unlike your retarded self, know the difference between copyright infringement and theft.

      Hmmmm, let's see - copyright infringement is illegal and ummm, theft is illegal. So, how is illegal different than illegal? I've proven that if you don't pay for it, that you have deprived the original owner of their rightful profits, therefore it is called theft; don't pretend you can't comprehend that. Anyway, you never answered my question: How is your standard boilerplate argument going to stand up in a court of law? Any court of law would say, "You're right!! It's not theft!! It's copyright infringement, which, just so, happens to be illegal, too - you fucking idiot!!"

      Information under copyright is a different sort of property to physical property. That is why we have different laws. Get some fucking IP education.

      And taking it without paying for it is still illegal. Get some fucking morals.

    3. Re:Stealing IS accurate by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Umm, no, once again, please point out exactly where it is I said anything about it being ok because it's a different crime.

      "So, how is illegal different than illegal?"

      Yes, let's just call everything rape and be done with it shall we?

      Fucking moron.

      "Anyway, you never answered my question: How is your standard boilerplate argument going to stand up in a court of law? Any court of law would say, "You're right!! It's not theft!! It's copyright infringement, which, just so, happens to be illegal, too - you fucking idiot!!""

      I didn't say it was a defence, I said it was different and governed by different laws. I do think AND say that you're fucking retarded. Go play in traffic.

    4. Re:Stealing IS accurate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, no, once again, please point out exactly where it is I said anything about it being ok because it's a different crime.

      Trying to back pedal now, are we? You're whole boilerplate argument is attempting to make it sound like a minor infraction, in comparison the that horrible, evil thing we call THEFT. Come on, dude, get with the program. It you're going to regurgitate other people's arguments, you should, at the very least, know what they are all about. I don't know whether you're a backpedaling liar, or if you're just stupid. Eh, probably a whole lot of both.

      Yes, let's just call everything rape and be done with it shall we?

      That would be pretty fucking dumb, now wouldn't it? Why would you want to do that?

      I have a better proposal: How about, if you take something and you pay an agreed-upon, fair value for it, we call it a fair deal. Then, on the only other side of the coin, if you take something and don't ever pay for it, then you have deprived the original owner of their rightful profits, and how about we call that . . . ummm . . . theft.

      How about I dumb it down for you so you can understand it: instead of calling everything rape, maybe we should just call a spade a spade?

      I didn't say it was a defence, I said it was different and governed by different laws. I do think AND say that you're fucking retarded. Go play in traffic.

      You fucking dopes wield that arguement like it's supposed to exonerate you from all wrongdoing. You try to use it as a defense here on Slashdot. It doesn't seem to matter whatever else you call it, but as soon as you call it theft, little fucking whiney cocksuckers come crawling out of the woodwork, to try to make it sound like, due to a technicality, it can't be called theft, therefore there shouldn't be any punishment for it. "But, but, but, but, but, your honor, my client couldn't possibly be guilty - he didn't steal anything!!".

      It's theft. You lose. Suck it up.

  119. Right 'free' games by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For those who don't know, these free games are all the rage in places like korea. Instead of buying a boxed game and then paying a monthly subscription ala World of Warcraft, you download the game for free and play it for free BUT all the advanced items are not looted or crafted but bought.

    The earliest games just made some useful but not-essential items buyable. Buyable but still lootable or at least tradeable. Think Second Life where 1 person buying linden dollars can buy stuff from players who never spend any real cash.

    But that isn't profitable enough, so slowly the "buy" items have become more and more essential to play the game beyond the basics.

    One example is a game, might be Perfect World, where you get one free sample of a pet. A little pig that picks up loot for you that drops in the world. Handy no? But hardly essential? No, the game drops so much loot that anyone trying to pick stuff up AFTER the free pet has run out will find the game near impossible to play. So where do you get more piggies? From the shop.

    And then of course the smart players are going to do a small sum, exactly HOW much do you have to pay each month to play the game succesfully? Oh dear, an amount very similar to the monthly subscription of WoW. Execpt for ONE small problem, that is the MINIMUM sum. You can easily spend more and we all know how addictive these games can become. Blizzard can only charge you the monthly fee, although Blizzard and SOE are learning how to fleece their customer for more, but the Korean games go far further.

    Remember all the outcry when console games for the x-box and 360 started charging, one racing game where most tracks and cars had to be bought after you bought theboxed game?

    The Koreans go far further.

    I don't see this as the future.

    Do you REALLY want games entirely designed around selling you items? An RTS where every upgrade for your units has to be paid for, an adventure where puzzle items have to be bought, an RPG where every skill is paid for?

    As expensive as single player games have become at least that is a fixed one time charge (oh okay ignoring games like Oblivion) where you know the game can be finished for that amount of money. I really don't want a future in which a company makes its money from me playing the game over and over.

    lets not forget also that this means the end of modding. Do you really think that if EA manages to introduce the sale of single pieces of furniture in The Sims that they would allow the countless free mods that exist?

    How are you going to sell a FPS with bought items if any modder can add far better weapons?

    No, just produce games that are decent value, remove the damn DRM so paying customers ain't punished and accept that perhaps the market isn't in producing the Xth FPS but in producing unique fun games that the people want to pay and play. Remember that the biggest game ever is The Sims. A series that launched WITHOUT drm and allowed open modding and made the company more money then they could ever have dreamed. The PC market is alive and well but you got to stop aiming for the 12yr old boys. I know quite a few The Sims fans and they don't give a shit about buying a new expansion, all they care about is new options to produce free content for EA. That is how you make money. Sell to people willing to pay for your product, not fight a loosing war.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  120. Wish your post could be moved... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    ...so that it would be stuck directly under the GP's trollish mind-feces and people wouldn't have to scroll 1/4 the way down the giant wall of text for a proper rebuttal.

    To anyone who agrees with the GP: Sometimes I pirate games, sometimes I pay for games, sometimes I pay for games I pirated, and sometimes I wish I'd just pirated games I paid for. If you don't like it, bite me. I have an extensive collection of legitimately purchased games which is probably bigger than yours, so I've probably made the game industry more money than you have.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  121. The developers that thought of this: by BPPG · · Score: 1

    Bob:Hmm, kids are pirating our games, even with the massive amounts of hardware destroying DRM we put on them.

    Jack:They can't pirate them if we just make them free.

    Bob:Hey, you're right. Ha ha, suckers!

    I joke, I joke.

    --
    What's the value of information that you don't know?
  122. Bad idea. And how did they miss referencing SL? by descil · · Score: 1

    This sounds like a really bad idea, to me. And their references are HORRIBLE. Who has honestly ever heard of Nexon? But no mention of the massive failure Project Entropy, not Midthievia, not Second Life(hehe, understandable that one..)

    Let's look at the first game to try this: nominally called midievia, is better known by the name 'Midthievia', because the code is ROM (which is licensed to say you can't charge for it), then they turned around and charged users for items in world.

    Hm, for some reason this reminds me of GPL3's extra protections. Maybe fascism has its place o.O in licensing, that is...

  123. Nothing too insightful or useful here by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

    He's not saying games will be 'free' so much as games will be forced online pay model for anything interesting. Sucks to be on a bad net connection and sucks even more if you don't want your computer phoning EA, Activision-blizzard, Valve, Ubisoft, Nintento, Sony etc. with a list of what games you played today.

    Under his model there's no reason you can't continue to sell the same sorts of products now, just without the retail outlet (like steam/gamersgate etc).

    Nothing here is particularly insightful. If every game released from today on had the same business model as WoW that would mostly end piracy (and so long as your servers keep offering up better content than the fake ones you're in business). But MMO games or microtransactions isn't what everyone wants (think horse armour from oblivion). People also don't want to rely entirely on a subscription service for what could otherwise be a boxed product. If I had bought from the (fictional) interplay online store baldurs gate, NWN and Fallout, I'd be SOL when it came to trying to play those games today since interplay is, for all practical purposes out of business.

    The main attempts at solutions to piracy all revolve around online authentication, either immediately upon install or repeated online phone home systems. Disc duplication is largely solved by this system of online variants of the CD-key. However in the age of online piracy the solution seems to be moving towards Steam/Gamersgate (etc) type 'accounts' where you pray the company you bought from stays in business, isn't selling your information, and is keeping your data secure, for you to use your product whenever you want. No more than Samsung should be able to say 'well we don't want your TV to work anymore' or 'we're out of business your TV won't work anymore' should EA be able to do the same thing to ones game collection.

    The other solution to piracy is consoles, which are basically expensive DRM boxes with some PC-type components. I'd personally be much happier if they'd charge me half as much for the DRM box (say a custom formatted disk drive for which you cannot buy burners) but have it run on my PC. Won't happen of course because they make more money on consoles and consoles have certain other advantages (like mostly standardized capabilities for developers).

    For the moment it looks like the PC market is pushing the revenue sources online (even if the product is the same as in a box), either from advertising, which we don't want, or forcing online dependency for the product, which we also, don't want. Without substantial cooperation between game companies, microsoft, and hardware manufacturers to implement an affordable hardware based solution to disc verification which also adds something for consumers (say the capacity of blu-ray, or more likely video card related) we're going to see the PC market continue to struggle to adapt to new revenue modes which their customers don't want.

    Oh and if you're going to make a game like crysis, you need to remember that not everyone who pirated your game could run your game, which was why they pirated it: as a benchmark, not for the game.

  124. Stealing versus infringement by HycoWhit · · Score: 1

    Walking into a bookstore, slipping a best seller under your jacket and walking out--that is stealing. Walking into a bookstore and copying a best seller word for word into your personal notebook--isn't that considered fair use? It isn't until you have given your notebook with the copied words to another person that you have created copyright infringement.

  125. I pay for physical property not imaginary by Taibhsear · · Score: 1

    I pay for hardware. I don't pay for software. I pay for the box, the printed discs, the manual, the artwork, etc. I don't pay for the game. If I don't need or want the physical property I'll just download it. I have no moral dilemma with this in any way shape of form. If I find myself in a position that my hardware fails and I don't feel the urge or need to even download the software again, then it isn't worth my money.

  126. Wisdom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A term to replace piracy: Wisdom

  127. You answered your own question by tepples · · Score: 1

    And why blame Windows: It provides a very good platform for game developers.

    I do agree with the console argument, though. Which is why I see no real reason to buy a PC for gaming anymore. I mean, why would you?

    You answered your own question. The advantage of PCs is that PC games are more likely to allow use of user-generated game elements. In fact, PCs support the ultimate user-generated game element: the indie game.

  128. Intel graphics vs. Wii graphics by ATI? by tepples · · Score: 1

    However something that is going to run on a cheap intel graphics chipset, is going to look like it was released in 1998, and then you would hear complaints about good video games again.

    Sure, you're not going to get PS3 or Xbox 360 graphics out of an Intel GrandMA from the past two years. But are you certain that the Intel GMAs are less powerful than the Wii console's "Hollywood" video chip?

  129. No property loss by ObsidianBlk · · Score: 1

    I've always found it funny... Piracy, stealing, and theft are all, semantics aside, the taking of physical property from one person by another.

    Simple truth is, there is nothing taken from anyone when software is "pirated". The person who bought their game still has their game, complete and unchanged. The stores still have the same number of copies of the game that they had shipped to them. The game developers still have all of the original media, source code, and master copies of the game they always had. Nobody had anything taken from them and there are very few things, if anything at all, in this world that works the exact same way when "stolen".

    Further more, the developers intellectual property and copyrights are still intact. A pirate couldn't take their copy of the game, and re-release it claiming they made the game. As such, even the pirated game still fully credits the initial developers for having made the game in the first place.

    In my opinion, "piracy" is only piracy in the notion that the people doing it are flipping off the DRM heavy handed and the copy protection crazy. They become "pirates" only in the romantic sense and really are only that, for they took nothing (not even money). Software pirates wouldn't even exist if there was no copy protection on the games in the first place, and while people may copy the game between friends, the game companies would more than likely see an increase in sales over all.

  130. Unauthorized Duplication by jgoemat · · Score: 1

    It's not stealing and it's certainly not piracy. You're doing something that doesn't harm anyone in any way. If you think about harm, it requires an overt act. If Joe punches Bob, that harms him. If Joe steals Bob's CD, that harms Bob because he no longer has the use of that CD. If you think about it, the game companies (plus MPAA and RIAA) are not complaining about people using their products. As a matter of fact, they want as many people as possible to use their products. What they are complaining about is the lack of payment. "Not purchasing" a game does the same harm to them that they do to me by not giving me $50. "Not purchasing" a game does the same harm to them whether I use the game or not.

    The copyright monopoly created by our governments is an artificial right of refusal granted to copyright holders. Unlike inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I haven't seen arguments that even come close to persuading me that the right to hoard and control knowledge is a moral one. It is a legal regulation meant to encourage the creation of new works by allowing the creators a method of profiting from them.

    John Locke:

    No body could think himself injured by the drinking of another man, though he took a good draught, who had a whole river of the same water left him to quench his thirst: [...]

    Unauthorized duplication consists of two things:

    1. The duplication and use of a copyrighted work -- Obviously the copyright holders of video games want them to reach the largest audience possible. I daresay that the authors would want the most people to enjoy the game as possible, not to simply line their pockets. Say if it were guaranteed that they would never make a single dime, would they like people to play their games and enjoy their creation anyway? Even if not, in what way can the use be said to harm the author if they don't even know about it? Has it to do with privacy, where the author might not want anyone to see their creation, but they will take the harm to their privacy if they get paid for it? That is not an argument that I have heard offered before, but it might have validity.
    2. The absence of payment for use of the copyrighted work -- This can obviously by itself not be claimed as a harm, any more than me claiming that you haven't paid me $50 is harming me. This being a cause of harm is predicated on the notion that the $50 is owed to the author. I cannot say to owe someone money without agreeing to it. If I had destroyed or taken their property, that is a wrong unto itself that may be compensated with money. Also if I agree to pay a person money, I can form a contract with them that by my act will make it so that I owe them money for some consideration.

    An any rate, I cannot see how people can perpetuate the myth of "billions of dollars lost". What is wrong with the media that they are so eager to report the drivel spouted by the entertainment industry without balancing the story? They count a 13 year old kid as having cost them the full purchase price of $20,000 when he downloaded 1,000 movies. The kid might only get $10 a week in allowance so the most he theoretically could have cost them was $520 in one year. In actuality he might have only purchased a DVD or two, or rented a dozen. I am sorry that I appear alone in ignoring people that make flawed arguments and try to mislead the public.

    1. Re:Unauthorized Duplication by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "You're doing something that doesn't harm anyone in any way"

      Let me guess, you don't rely on selling games for a living do you?

      You are talking shit. long winded shit to justify stealing games, just don't embarrass yourself by this rationalizing to people who actually lose sales to piracy...

      If I make a game, and you want to play it, and you refuse to pay me for my work, you are a thief. you can type pages of bullshit to try and weasel out of it, I'll always call a thief a thief, a leech a leech and a scumbag with a sense of entitlement a scumbag with a sense of entitlement.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    2. Re:Unauthorized Duplication by christ,+jesus+H · · Score: 1

      Your assuming I would have purchased your game in the first place, which in my experience is very rarely true. Look developers can continue to scare themsevles to death with stories about how thier fans are a bunch of "thieving", "leeching", "scumbags" (strange industry that sees its target demographic that way - talk about entitlement?) but the truth remains that many people have done very well in the PC gaming business over the last 20 to 30 years, without DRM, without spyware, regkits and the thousands of other "invasive gimps" that are slowly killing this industry.

      If you are a game developer and like developing your content for PCs, I would suggest you take a more respectful and open minded view of the opinions of your potential customers. I would also humbly suggest that developers and publishers concentrate more on creating innovative, interesting and entertaining software and less time worrying about "pirates", the boogieman or any other over hyped threat. I am seriously afraid that the PC gaming industry is literally scaring itself to death.

      --
      Ohh spiteful one tell me who to smote and he shall be smolten!
    3. Re:Unauthorized Duplication by jgoemat · · Score: 1

      If I make a game, and you want to play it, and you refuse to pay me for my work, you are a thief.

      You have a poor mastery of the English language. That is not the definition of thief. I won't allow you and the other copyright fascists to redefine property law, the courts are on my side. If copyright were the same then there wouldn't be a need for copyright, existing property laws could be used. You actually go a step further in your argument that I've ever heard contended, is that a failing of your intellect or just your fury over an imagined crime? I can't believe that you think someone would be guilty of "stealing" simply by wanting to play a game that they don't have.

      You are talking shit. long winded shit to justify stealing games, just don't embarrass yourself by this rationalizing to people who actually lose sales to piracy...

      How embarrassing, you use the word 'stealing' when talking of copyright infringement. Do you make your living off the artificial scarcity of copyrights, or have you simply been brainwashed by the copyright fat cats?

  131. X vs. Y by tepples · · Score: 1

    The biggest problem, though, when comparing PC gaming to console gaming is that most people see it as X vs. Y. Consoles vs. PC. It's more accurate, in my opinion, to see the PC as another platform; to compare it individually to the Wii or the XBox 360, etc. rather than to the consoles as a whole.

    X vs. Y looks more reasonable when you compare the platforms like this:

    • Windows: Anyone with broadband can download a copy of MinGW and make and self-publish an OpenGL based game with it.
    • Wii: Lockout chip. Nintendo has stated publicly that the smallest developers don't qualify for a devkit, not even for WiiWare, and I can dig out a source on warioworld.com if you want.
    • Xbox 360: Lockout chip, unless you want to have all your customers pay $99 per year to run XNA games.
    • PLAYSTATION 3: Lockout chip, unless you want to use pure software rendering and have all your customers go through a convoluted "Other OS" installation process.

    So from the perspective of a small business that develops video games, the feature matrix looks like this:

    • Windows: Available.
    • Consoles: Not available.
  132. mod parent up by descil · · Score: 1

    "Those who pay for games will pay for it, and those who refuse to will continue to pirate."

    Really that's all that needs to be said in response to the main point of this article.

    But micropay actually rocks. Not for games, though, lol... what a bad idea... obviously he's crying wolf. But it's good for the rest of us, because micropay methods are especially useful for unknown artists, and they need improvement. So maybe he can stumble past the blocks for us like a good human ;)

    ... but we'll still patch his games so we don't have to pay for that sword except with in-game currency. GG. Binary's EZ, son, when will u LERN?

  133. Subscription Gaming by Arccot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Personally, I think the answer is subscription gaming like GameTap. All you can eat from their catalog for one price. That way, you don't get burned on a bad purchase. It's convenient, cheap, and generally easier to do than pirating.

    The biggest reason piracy is so rampant is because it's so easy and because it's free.

    If they added value by putting feeliesback in boxes, it could help.

  134. It's also incorrect. by Snaller · · Score: 1

    But hey, if you work for one of the amoral industries, don't let the spin stop you.

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  135. Just like in movies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of profits coming from the license, it comes from the advertising in the games themselves. The game must always be networked. Voila.

  136. Piracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Games have always been copied and passed around for all to enjoy. Computers haven't changed that. I had an uncle with shelves of floppy games(this was 80's, early 90's) for the kids that he'd occasionally make copies of for them to take home. Less and less are showing up to play kickball these days, so it seems only natural that without any alternate fun, free, group activities that this would happen.

  137. what doesnt kill you makes you stronger by Ruperz · · Score: 1

    I think your right on most points. There will always be people who steal games and i agree with you that what doesnt kill you makes you stronger idea. If a game is good and i mean really good it will sell anyhow. Of course the gaming industry could make more money but maybe it is the pirate that does a little of free marketing to. Look at warcraft f.e. it is really hard for the common men to play online with others without owning the original game. Counterstrike is an other example how the gaming industry have developed a great solution for this problem. Robbert Cheap Fish Finders

    --
    Can't think of a great gift to give ur loveones? Look at: www.bestfishfinderstore.com or www.m-motorsports.com
  138. Privateer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm quite partial to using the word "privateer" as a replacement for "pirate", especially in those many cases under the mercurial umbrella of "piracy" which aren't even illegal.

  139. I prefer "unlicensed evaluation" by gregor-e · · Score: 1

    As many have pointed out, blowing $50-$60 a pop just to find out whether a title is good just isn't feasible. This is why many people download "unlicensed evaluation" copies of PC games. The ones that are good, get bought. Yes, really. It'd be interesting to find out how many folks do legitimize their favorite evaluation copies. I bet the anti-evaluation folks would be surprised.

  140. I'd vote for that by Snaller · · Score: 1

    if i could vote :)

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  141. Piracy generates a larger paying user base. by joocemann · · Score: 1

    A person who pirates has no intention of paying for the software/music/etc. That person does not have the money to buy these products, but still has an urge to use them. This is the non-consumer consumer. They acquire the product via no actual production costs to the producer (its just internet electrons flying around being copied).

    Even while all these 'free copies' are going around, being used by people who would never have actually bought the product, the product is seeing a much more extensive and widespread distribution. This distribution serves to influence more and more potential buyers, though their friends and family they heard about it from may have an illegal copy.

    Furthermore, when one of these 'would not buy this product, but will use it' people (pirates) are satisfied with the product enough and happen to have a consumer-urge, they too may buy the product! More revenues! ...

    Here's an example.

    Situation 1:
    2000 people in LA buy a new Metallica album. Metallica is coming to their city for a concert. Those 2000 people get their friends to listen to metallica in their car, 1000 more people (the friends) get interested and go to the concert, pay $100 a ticket, and are quite possibly pretty into metallica and some are now buying metallica albums.... Sounds good.

    Situation 2:
    2000 people in LA buy a new Metallica album. 10,000 people get the album via piracy. These 12,000 total listeners hear about a metallica concert. They show the new album to their friends, and like the situation above, a matching 50% more are interested... Thats 6000 more people, not 1000 more like in situation 1, due to the larger free distribution of the media. Now maybe some of those 6000 more will pirate the album, but lets say like the other, they all pay $100/ticket for the show. Then some of them are hooked and they actually go out and buy CDs as well. The end result is MORE SALES.

    A pirate has no intention of buying the product, so don't assume that they would buy it if there were no way to pirate it. They would most likely not buy it instead. But, as illustrated, a pirate WILL produce more buzz-meme-interest in the product to other people who may actually pay.

  142. Alternative term for piracy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Personally I never liked pirates, therefore I propose ninjacy as a replacement term.

  143. Re:Glad to be of service. by sammy+baby · · Score: 1

    No, it isn't, because you know perfectly well that copyright infringement isn't theft.

    And no, my saying that doesn't imply that I'm a pirate myself or that I think copyright infringement is OK or that INFORMATION WANTS TO BE FREE MAN or any of those other bullshit strawman arguments you're thinking of.

    And yes, that IS what you were thinking.

    Bullshit. I was thinking that software piracy is theft, in the same way that jumping the turnstile on the metro is theft, or leaching off your neighbor's cable is theft. You're welcome to disagree with me, but don't put strawman arguments in my mouth to do it.

    And really, log in.

  144. Robbery commited at sea by slocan · · Score: 1

    Do you mean stealing, as in shoplifting game boxes from a store?

    Then I'd guess you're right.

    But I think you're referring to unauthorized copies, i.e. copyright law infringement.

    My take is that the use of the term piracy was a successful marketing feat of the pro-IP lobbies. In order to associate copyright law infringement with the negative views on the violence and cruelty depicted in popular culture and commonly associated with robbery committed at sea.

    Such associations have the hidden intent to liken copyright law infringement with the infringement of natural law rights (the right to life and to property - although the right to property can be debated).

    The effect is that copyright and patent law are increasingly deemed as natural law: The authors and inventors must be rewarded. We owe them so. They deserve protection.

    In fact, some little research will show that copyright and patent law were created not so long ago as incentives (even called privileges in some countries). Before these laws were created, the natural law was to copy what was useful with the means available at the time.

    I'd say that continuing to use the term piracy, instead of copyright or patent law infringement, is to inadvertently cave in to marketing tactics of industries that have established and maintained themselves mainly because of the human created systems of state granted privileges (and not necessarily the value of their work).

    Not to say that I'm against the granting of temporary and limited privileges, when they are actual incentives to the production of something useful, that wouldn't be produced otherwise.

    But I'm surely against the granting of disproportionate privileges without regards to their actual need as incentives and the disincentives they weigh, curbing innovation in many ways.

    The main trouble the pro-IP industries now face is that the means to copy are nowadays much more generally accessible. The "natural law" or "natural ways" of copying what is useful or pleasing is increasingly more accessible. With such, the industries that maintain themselves mainly because of the privileges they were granted, instead of the value they create, are being challenged. It's the case of old business models.

    It really is time to think of exchanging patent and copyright law for more effective and proportionate incentives: such as temporary tax exemptions instead of monopolies and artificial controls on the common and natural ability to copy, modify and distribute.

    Cheers,

  145. My game is free by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

    And I hope it stays that way.  I'd LOVE to just sell advertising space in it, and give it away free forever.

    No license software crap.

    No worries.

  146. My alternate phrasing -- being creative by gringer · · Score: 1

    How about: creative procurement.

    It reminds me of the days when people said, "I didn't destroy it, I creatively modified it."

    --
    Ask me about repetitive DNA
  147. It's not that games have gotten worse... by DeskLazer · · Score: 1

    it's the potential that hasn't gotten a chance to be realized. companies are forcing the programmers to work faster, fit in more product placement, put in stuff that's supposed to sell more games... then they forget about working on the main idea itself, and that's where the game goes to shit. after they tell the company 'you gave us such a short time to work on this, there's NO WAY this will sell,' the overseers say nay, and ship it out the door: broken. this is where patches come in. and that's why we keep getting 'bad games.' they are great ideas that never get a chance to be really tested and developed. for a great example, see any game electronic arts has put out in the past, I dunno, 8-10 years [especially sequels].

  148. Confusing WoW and AoC references. by SupremoMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hell, the whole thing is confusing. Why does it mention online games? Those do not get pirated! How can you pirate WoW where you need to pay monthly to play it? Yeah u can use a private server, but those have less than .1% hardware capability of anything Blizzard tapes together from used parts. So enjoy adventuring ALONE. Also, why would anyone want to move to the Asian pricing model? Americans, by large part, prefer the way things are. Most of them do not want money to give someone an advantage, as witness by backlashes to gold selling services. Online games have little problems with piracy. That leaves you with not online games, which you cannot give away for free, because even if you used an ad model, the game still has to connect to get new ad material.

  149. Term to replace piracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I call it sharing.
    If the pussy media company executives that complain about 'piracy' ever met a real pirate they would shit there pants and beg not to be killed. Piracy is the taking of material goods with force, usually deadly, and normally but not exclusively connected with boats. On land it's called theivery, armed robbery or banditry. What we do with software is sharing.
    I also agree with the part about games becoming free, steam is a good example of them becoming cheaper and the resurgence of the free playable demo. Dwarf fortress is an example of a truly free game that is also right up there with the biggest budget releases (or above them) in terms of gameplay quality.
    In fact the designer of the game, Tarn Adams usually mentions in interviews that modern games are overhyped and overpriced, that after you pay $100 for a game you may not even like it and that it is possible to make a living purely off donations from people who like the game enough to want to pay as much as they think it is worth.
    Provided you can come up with a stroke of genius like dwarf fortress.

  150. hey jesus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm still waiting for that $$ you owe me. Pay up already!!!

  151. Piracy's a great term for this... by spectecjr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Piracy has meant theft of copyrighted materials for a VERY long time. Since 1790. I think 218 years or so is long enough for the definition to be valid.

    From the 1828 edition of Webster's dictionary:

    " PI'RACY, n. [L. piratica, from Gr. to attempt, to dare, to enterprise, whence L. periculum, experior; Eng. to fare.]

                    1. The act, practice or crime of robbing on the high seas; the taking of property from others by open violence and without authority, on the sea; a crime that answers to robbery on land.

    Other acts than robbery on the high seas, are declared by statute to be piracy. See Act of Congress, April 30, 1790.

                    2. The robbing of another by taking his writings."

    --
    Coming soon - pyrogyra
  152. Instant Action by chiasmus1 · · Score: 1

    GarageGames has a website for their free games. They also allow you to purchase ActionTokens which allow you to buy new skins for characters, new tanks, new marbles, and access to new levels. http://www.instantaction.com/

  153. Disband the redundant business models... by m8nkey · · Score: 1

    And watch software piracy all but disappear. Providing a game for free and using micro transactions for revenue is damn lucrative. Korean gamdevs have been doing it for around a decade. Another approach is a solid digital distribution system. If it's easier to pirate your game than obtain it legally, you're an idiot. Steam, although it had some teething problems and is by no means perfect, is an excellent example of a great online distribution system. The big releases are cheaper to buy than in the store here in Australia and the casual/indie games are only a few bucks. I think game piracy is predominantly self induced by insane prices.

  154. I like to call it... by Mr_Tricorder · · Score: 1

    less-than-legal software distribution

  155. s/piracy/communication by LuYu · · Score: 0

    s/piracy/communication/
    s/pirates/speakers/

    "We're seeing developers and publishers blaming [communication] for all the ills of PC gaming"

    I guess they miss those days when computers were isolated boxes, unable to communicate with the outside world. Speech is everyone's Right: That includes ALL information.

    --
    All data is speech. All speech is Free.
  156. That's why I prefer "bootlegging". by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 1

    That used to be the preferred term for unlicensed copies in music. Bands used to love or hate the bootlegs, with the simple rule being giving a buddy a bootleg was OK, but selling a bootleg was a no-no. The studios, of course, hated bootlegs. Even in the Seventies and Eighties, they would frisk you and turn you away from concerts if they thought your Walkman was capable of recording.

    "Pirates" is just a bad term for copyright scofflaws. It is not stealing per se, but ignoring the legal limits to who may make a copy.

    It is a legal system to protect publishers, from the days when making copies was an expensive enough to make it viable only for commercial publishers. Copyrights also were intended to encourage publishers to pay the authors a share of the profits, not to simply grant them a monopoly.

    So yeah, I prefer the term "bootleggers". Like the namesakes of yore, the crime isn't theft but in ducking under the law, not paying for a license or taxes to make what they make. And like the bootleg hooch of old, the quality of the bootleg media is not guaranteed. It's rotgut, not fine wine.

  157. fgjjghjgjgh by AlbinoClock · · Score: 1

    "liberation"

  158. Schwarzkopiererei by Kirth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not really a replacement for the english-speaking world. But in german, "schwarzkopieren" means "copying something without being authorized to do so", thus somebody who does that is a "Schwarzkopierer".

    This is analogous to "schwarzfahren", which means using some public-transport vehicle without paying the fare.

    --
    "The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
  159. Simple economics by Cyanara · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There might be a little less piracy in Australia if they weren't trying to charge $90-$110 for each game. Our dollar is nearly neck and neck with the American dollar (and hasn't been far off for many years), and yet the impression I get is that games are only $50 in the US. This leaves the Internet for buying games, but as I recently discovered, credit cards charge an entirely relative fee for purchases in different currencies (because it's not like it's a simple, automated millisecond calculation that many websites perform as a free service). And then there was that bullshit Activision pulled on Steam with COD4, artificially adjusting the price depending on your country. They claimed it was so that stores wouldn't get screwed over, but as I pointed out, it's not exactly like the exchange rate suddenly doubled the night after they shipped out their 99 cent DVDs. I like to buy games that I find good, but frankly it's almost like they're trying to prevent it.

  160. Replacement term by Snaller · · Score: 1

    "And if anyone has a favorite replacement term for "piracy," in the context of electronic copyright violation, please suggest it below."

    * Unauthorized magnetic pattern duplication

    * Duplication
    ("Today 5 men were charged with unlawful duplication")

    * Data liberation

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  161. Why I am a pirate by Loki_666 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I am i pirate. I buy pirated games, copy them, download them, etc. Why? Reason 1: Because i cannot get the games in my language. I live in Russia (the land of the free) and my Russian is simply not good enough to buy games in this language. Very occasionally a publisher will release a multilingual version of the game over here but this is rare, and when i see such, and im interested in the game, i may buy it. Otherwise, i have no choice, i must buy the pirated version from some guys who sell on the street or get from other sources.... and they naturally sell these with English because they are converted from the English into Russian so contain both languages. Reason 2: I have children. Small ones. With sticky fingers. Who like to play with CD drawers and bite disks, and stand on disks, and throw disks into the toilet. Given this, i have to keep my disks in a safe place. When the disk is in the drive (because the game publisher demands i do this to play), and im happily playing, i may get distracted by the wife, or one of the kids needs something, and i leave the computer. You can guarantee within 1 second the other kid will have opened the CD drawer and started to play frisbee with the disk. Conclusion: I am a pirate because i have to be. On those rare occasions i can buy a game in english that i want, i still have to go and d/l a No-CD crack which criminalizes me again. Funnily enough, when i lived in the UK and didnt have kids, most of my games were originals. Sometimes i would buy the original after playing the pirated version, because i do believe in supporting those who create these games. PS: I know i can order over the internet games but not only would i incur quite large postage costs, but also to do this i would need a credit card, and i really dont like having these tools of Satan about my person.

  162. Define "Piracy/Pirate" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pirate:
    - one who loves music
    - one who loves movies
    - one who loves games
    - one who loves art
    - an art lover
    - an art appreciator
    - a fan
    - one who appreciates creative effort
    - a potential sponsor
    - a potential customer

    "Piracy"
    - appreciating art
    - appreciating music
    - appreciating movies
    - appreciating games
    - being an art lover
    - being an art supporter
    - being a potential art customer
    - being a potential art sponsor

    Also,
    "Piracy"
    - standing up for your rights
    - courage
    - hero
    - entrepreneur
    - leader
    - revolutionary

    Finally,
    "Pirate"
    - DISSATISFIED CUSTOMER

    "Piracy"
    - COMPETITION

  163. re: Mac game ports and performance by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    I don't disagree with you, really. Mac ports of many of the popular 3D PC games DO have worse performance. Not surprising though, when you look at "ports" in general. Ports of console games for the PC generally have worse performance too, from what I've seen.

    A game developed natively for a particular type of system is always going to run better than somebody trying to hack/edit that same code into running on totally different hardware. Windows games typically use "Direct-X/Direct 3D", while the Mac running OS X has no such equivalent. Therefore, they're usually stuck only trying to port over things that support OpenGL instead. That poses some serious limitations right away, but doesn't mean the Mac hardware itself is inferior.

    As for Mac video editing/production apps not doing 3D though? What about Apple Motion?

  164. PC gaming isn't dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe the market for new games is dead (or more likely it's just flattened out), but PC gaming will always be alive and well. Some of us gamers are simply happy enough playing old games that actually work on the hardware we have without having to go through one upgrade or another every year or so.

    Bored with a game? Download a free mod or a new map that changes some rules or aspect of gameplay, and get more value out of it. Not to mention some multiplayer games age ridiculously well, as long there's a good server up it doesn't really matter much how old the game is. (People still play BF1942, StarCraft, or Total Annihilation, don't they?)

    Also why is it so bad to cycle through about a dozen great classics which may not be so pretty graphics-wise than to go and buy the latest polished turds? (What's the point of a new game if you can play through the storyline in under a week, and that the multiplayer mode doesn't offer anything really novel in comparison to games that are close to hitting the decade mark?)

    Of course companies could try to make unique puzzle games or simple platformers that have novel features, but then 90% of the time they may as well make the games in Flash and go for ad revenue instead of trying to sell the actual game.

  165. I despise willful ignorance by spun · · Score: 1

    I gave you a chance to reread what I wrote. You obviously didn't. What, exactly, do we disagree on, hmmmm?

    Here's a little quiz to test your reading comprehension.

    1.) Do I claim copyright infringement is moral or in any way acceptable?

    2.) Do I say I want a world without copyrights?

    3.) Do you and I disagree over copyrights?

    Even giving you a chance to go back and correct your misinterpretations, you refused, obviously believing there was no way you could have misread what I said. No, obviously "I need to learn" that when you completely miss the point of something, it doesn't mean you missed the point of something.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:I despise willful ignorance by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "I gave you a chance to reread what I wrote. You obviously didn't. What, exactly, do we disagree on, hmmmm?

      Here's a little quiz to test your reading comprehension.

      1.) Do I claim copyright infringement is moral or in any way acceptable?"

      yes. Here is what you posted: "It's not stealing as copying does not deprive the original owner of anything. Copyright is an artificial monopoly provided by the government as an incentive to create and release creative works."

      "2.) Do I say I want a world without copyrights?"

      no, I never said you did. So many people in this forum do however (and so does the FSF). This post was an example for all to enjoy. This forum doesn't revolve around you.

      "3.) Do you and I disagree over copyrights?"

      If you think copyright infringement isn't considered stealing, then yes.

      "Even giving you a chance to go back and correct your misinterpretations, you refused, obviously believing there was no way you could have misread what I said. No, obviously "I need to learn" that when you completely miss the point of something, it doesn't mean you missed the point of something.
      --"

      giving me the chance? don't be so smug, it makes you look like an asshole. I read your post, I don't agree with what you said about copyright infringement and I even added something to the conversation and explained my view.

      Your post offered nothing new in regards to copyright. I have been hearing the exact same thing in this forum since napster came out in 99, so get over yourself.

    2. Re:I despise willful ignorance by spun · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Oh. My. GOD. You really are dumb. First, is stealing the only bad thing in the world? What a moron. I specifically said, it's not stealing but it is wrong. FAIL.

      Next, NO ONE in this forum wants to do away with copyrights. We are not idiots. We know that the GPL depends on copyright. Ass.

      Check it: rape isn't stealing, but it is wrong. Do we disagree on that? Murder also isn't stealing, but it is wrong. Copyright infringement isn't stealing, but it is wrong. See how that works? Is your view that every crime in the world is stealing?

      How dense are you? I have a feeling you know that you are flat out wrong here, but you are too proud to back down. But it's juts making you look even stupider, give it a rest, just admit that you fucked up and drastically misinterpreted something.

      No more, I'm done with you. It isn't worth it conversing with a fucking moron who is too proud to admit they are being an absolute idiot and alienating someone WHO AGREES WITH THEM. Copyright infringement is morally wrong, I said so before, but that's not good enough for you, it has to be exactly equivalent to stealing. Which is the most idiotic thing I've heard in a long time.

      Fuck off.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:I despise willful ignorance by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Oh. My. GOD. You really are dumb. First, is stealing the only bad thing in the world? What a moron. I specifically said, it's not stealing but it is wrong. FAIL."

      FAIL, is that how you try to win all arguments?

      "Next, NO ONE in this forum wants to do away with copyrights. We are not idiots. We know that the GPL depends on copyright. Ass."

      you really should re-think this statement.

      "Check it: rape isn't stealing, but it is wrong. Do we disagree on that? Murder also isn't stealing, but it is wrong. Copyright infringement isn't stealing, but it is wrong. See how that works? Is your view that every crime in the world is stealing?"

      No, we are talking about copyright infringement. I'm not sure why you are bringing rape and murder into our discussion.

      "How dense are you? I have a feeling you know that you are flat out wrong here, but you are too proud to back down. But it's juts making you look even stupider, give it a rest, just admit that you fucked up and drastically misinterpreted something."

      Are you really this narcissistic?

      "No more, I'm done with you. It isn't worth it conversing with a fucking moron who is too proud to admit they are being an absolute idiot and alienating someone WHO AGREES WITH THEM. Copyright infringement is morally wrong, I said so before, but that's not good enough for you, it has to be exactly equivalent to stealing. Which is the most idiotic thing I've heard in a long time.

      Fuck off."

      waaah waaah..the little boy is going to take his toys and go home.

      FAIL (did I win the argument?)

  166. Replacement term: by Snaller · · Score: 1

    Intangible assets liberator

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
  167. Re:Glad to be of service. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bullshit. I was thinking that software piracy is theft, in the same way that jumping the turnstile on the metro is theft, or leaching off your neighbor's cable is theft. You're welcome to disagree with me, but don't put strawman arguments in my mouth to do it.

    You're liar. I didn't put anything into your mouth, I took it out of there. That WAS your reasoning beyond all possible doubt. You absolutely WOULD have responded with each and every one of those bullshit arguments if I had just stopped with the first sentence. You're just whining because you've been made to realize how predictable you are. You'll claim that isn't the case, but we both know that you'll be lying again. There is literally no chance whatsoever that I'm less than 100% right.

    And really, log in.

    Further proof that you know I'm right. You're trying to take the focus off of your own exposed stupidity and dishonesty by making an issue of whether or not I choose to post anonymously. You know perfectly well that it has nothing to do with the validity of my comments, yet you chose to act as though it does. Therefore, it is a lie. And the ONLY possible reason for you to tell this lie is because you know for a fact that everything I've said is absolutely true.

  168. new word, new solution by drDugan · · Score: 1

    the word used by most of the rest of the content industry is "redistribution"

    and as a solution, we offer a way for Content Creators and producers to release materials online for broad distribution and accept financial sponsorship directly. go to http://www.egaltorrents.com/

  169. I LOVE Valve / Steam!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really like Valve Software's model.
    So do I. No, really I do. Here's what happened:
    1. My flatmate bought Halflife 2, played it through, enjoyed it.
    2. I wandered over, asked for his username & password
    3. I used his username & password to install the game on my machine (didn't even need the disks.. just grabbed it from Steam)
    4. I set my firewall to permanently block the game from the net
    5. I played Halflife 2 over the course of a few months
    6. I deleted it

    I'm not sure exactly where people thought it would be an excellent idea to allow duplication of a single person game.. but all I can see is that I don't think I'm alone here in this scenario.