Slashdot Mirror
Google Unveils First Android Phone
danieltdp writes "Google finally officially launched the first Android-enabled mobile device to hit the market. As expected, the first Android phone will be the HTC Dream (also known as the T-Mobile G1), a device with a large touchscreen and a slide-out physical keypad that will run Google's new mobile platform." You might also not be at all surprised to know that Google is working on an Android competitor to the Apple App store.
I am in the market for a new phone now and have been eagerly awaiting this first Android phone for some time. Whilst the G1 looked pretty clunky to me from leaked shots I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt. However, based on today's presentation, I think I am going to wait and see.
My main issues:
1. Unless I misheard, this phone will require a gmail account to actually use it - even if you don't use their mail, calendar and chat apps. Call me paranoid, but I have no intention of giving Google even more info about me. If you need to register/log in using gmail before the phone becomes usable then that is a dealbreaker for me.
2. It also really bugs me that they haven't used a standard headphone jack. I know this is not a problem unique to this handset, but it annoys the hell out of me that manufacturers can't just use the standard jack size. I don't want multiple different headphones, one for each device, I want one set which I can use with all of them.
3. No Exchange support, tethering, desktop sync, video or Skype. Some or all of these would be nice at launch but I assume they will be added fairly quickly by others though given it is an open-source platform.
I think, on balance, I am going to wait until Android is available on other handsets or can be downloaded onto a handset of my choosing. The potential is still very much there with Android itself, but this version ain't it (at least for me). It is a shame really since I had such high hopes for the G1.
I have AT&T, and don't want an iPhone (well I do, but it doesn't really do what I need). No soup for me!
12:50 - press return.
Does it runs Chrome?
As expected, it's Tivoised...
There is currently no Skype compatibility, although T-Mobile did not specify whether such a thing would be allowed if a third-party were to develop it.
If it wasn't Tivoised, this wouldn't come up, because they wouldn't be able to prevent anyone from installing anything they want on it.
I heard that it doesn't support A2DP so no bluetooth stereo headsets.
And I can not find out if it has voice dialing. My old Samsung had great Voice dialing.
My current Sanyo's is just okay and my wife's Razor really doesn't work all that well.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
There's also an announcement from the Android Community (and confirmed by Qualcomm) that the device will be running off of a new Linux-based and Linux-optimized Qualcomm chipset.
What I find most interesting, however, is their mention of an asymmetric dual-core processor, with one core optimized for specific phone functionality and the other designed as a general-purpose processor. If this works, it will be an interesting new trend and a big step forwards for phones, Linux, and Qualcomm, I believe. (Apparently, though, it still has a few issues... I wish luck to those design teams!)
>> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
Actually, we fanbois hope that this announcement will jar Apple out of its iPhone SDK NDA foolishness, since Apple will now have to compete with a platform that actually allows people to write programming books on it and lets its programmers to ask each other for help without fear of impending lawsuit.
It bugs me that it even seeped into the summary.
"Google is working on an Android competitor to the Apple App store."
Haven't pretty much ALL phone companies had a store to download shit from for a looooooooong time before iphone or even ipod? Seriously you might as well say they are taking a page from microsofts book because they have a download store too. Come on now don't fall into this trap of thinking Apple did everything first (re. level sensing laptops).
But this phone is so much cheaper than the iPhone! $179 in the US, but they're literally giving them away in the UK! According to this, they're FREE (as long as you pay £40+/month "T-mobile tariffs"). Sure, $74/month may seem a little steep, but isn't it worth it to get a FREE phone?
(No idea what the voice plan will cost in US - TFA just gives rates for the data plans on top of the 2-year contracted voice plan.)
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
another article: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2008/09/t-mobile_unveils_first_google.html
This unveiling also brought some bad news for Android enthusiasts.
* Neither Google nor HTC nor T-Mobile will ship any sort of desktop-synchronization software with the phone, so your only way to get your address book and calendars onto the G1 will be to upload them to Gmail and Google Calendar. I can't believe that these companies are leaving a function this basic as a "third party opportunity."
* The G1, like the iPhone and T-Mobile's Sidekick, will have its SIM card slot locked to prevent the use of other carriers' subscriber-identity module cards. So if you don't like T-Mobile's network here or its roaming rates overseas, you'll either have to suck it up or hope somebody "jailbreaks" this phone in the same way that hackers have defeated the iPhone's SIM locking.
* The G1 will offer limited compatibility with some of the files you use most often. It will only be able to read Microsoft Office files, not edit them. And while its music player will be able to use MP3, Windows Media and AAC files, you'll need to wait for a third-party to provide some sort of add-on to sync your iTunes library to the phone. And iTunes Store downloads restricted with Apple's "digital rights management" locks won't play on the G1 (though the G1 is no different from other non-Apple devices in this respect; that's why you shouldn't buy Apple's DRM-ed downloads at all when you get the same music as an unlocked, open MP3 from Amazon's MP3 store).
* Its Bluetooth is as limited as the iPhone's. The G1 will initially support only hands-free kits, with "A2DP" stereo-sound output coming later on and, it seems, no plans for file transfer or other, more useful Bluetooth options.
"You killed my yogurt!" --Fred Fredburger
Pennidren no write good?
Could this possibly lead to my dream mobile phone? Could it? With the Android platform being open-source, I think it is just possible.
What is my dream mobile phone? It is JUST A FREAKIN' PHONE. No touch screen. No web browsing. Just a single line B&W LCD, maybe two lines for easier caller ID printing. And with big buttons.
Without a big fancy screen, the phone would cost less to make. That extra space could have a bigger fractal antenna pattern board or something for even better reception. And without all of those useless extra features, a battery life exceeding any phone made today.
Bearded Dragon
They fixed it
Actually, the original title was not so much wrong as it was British. The Brits tend to think of groups (i.e. a band, a corporation) as a plural. We Americans think of them as a singular. British: Pink Floyd are coming to town! American: Pink Floyd is coming to town! British: Google unveil the first Android model. American: Google unveils the first Android model. Of course, I don't know the original poster; they may not have been British; they may have, in fact, been wrong.
The CB App. What's your 20?
You might also not be at all surprised to know that Google is working on an Android competitor to the Apple App store.
That's right, I'm not suprised. It was on the front page of Slashdot awhile back.
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/30/1335231
comment about editors and reading Slashdot goes here.
Slide out full keyboard, touch screen, and not running Windows Mobile. So far, so good.
Once the majority of the bugs are worked out, and they release a GSM version, it could be really cool.
Now to carefully make my current phone last one more year...
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Could this possibly lead to my dream mobile phone? Could it? With the Android platform being open-source, I think it is just possible.
Do Androids dream of electric sheep?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
Unless I misheard, this phone will require a gmail account to actually use it - even if you don't use their mail, calendar and chat apps.
I didn't get that, just that it only supported gmail, IMAP, and POP3.
But I wouldn't be surprised. If you don't trust Google, don't get Android.
Besides, do you really trust AT&T or T-Mobile more than Google?
Everyone is comparing this new offering to the iPhone. But the interesting thing is that virtually no one compares it to the Blackberry - the new "has-been" of the so-called "Smart phone" industry.
It isn't like the Blackberry hasn't had any warning - the iPhone was announced more than 18 months ago, and there have been rumors about the Google-driven offering for nearly as long. How the shareholders of RIM can merely watch their company rest on its laurels is beyond me. RIM's death will be when Microsoft tries to acquire it.
In the 1980's, WANG was in nearly every office in America. They rested during the PC revolution, and within a couple years they were as good as dead. RIM has entered that territory. Yes, Blackberrys are still selling to corporate clients, who are traditionally slow to embrace new technologies. But other than the slow-movers out there, everyone can clearly see two very high-profile competitors - Apple and Google.
Looks bad for RIM.
There's another instant review from Moss, worth a shufti:,br>
http://mossblog.allthingsd.com/20080923/googles-g1-first-impressions/
br.
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
Sure, $74/month may seem a little steep, but isn't it worth it to get a FREE phone?
Though sarcastic, you might not realize how accurately you've hit the nail...
In the US, we pretty much don't buy phones by themselves. The vast majority of people get them for "free" (or a penny, or $19.99-after-rebate, or some apparent pittance like that) bundled with a 2-year contract for service.
So, while Apple prohibited AT&T from giving the iPhone away with service, Google allowing T-Mobile and the like to bundle them means regular everyday people, rather than just Apple fans, may actually get one of these.
Pros:
Cons:
I think I will be sitting out on the first generation of Android. If the next generation of android phones has as many improvements as there were from iPhone 1.0 to 2.0, i will be a a very happy camper.
I'm the Devil the Windows users warned you about.
For those wondering what the parent post is about, the title of the article was originally in the form of "Google unveil", which is popular in British English.
Only recently have we started to see this use of collective nouns with plural-form verbs in America. I especially see it in music web sites when referring to bands as collective nouns instead of single entities.
It hinges on whether you see companies as "they" or "it". I think it makes more sense to refer to discrete entities in the singular, as the title does now.
Fairy nuff
I thought that might be the case but reading it made my brain hurt.
The device looks ok.. but I didn't realize during the hype building process that HTC's device would be sim-locked to a network. So much for an open handset alliance product...
:|
Is that thing going to be sold retail worldwide without having to go through an operator? Operator don't subsidize phone where I live anyway.
If it can run SSH, whether native or third party, and if there is some way to verify it's a real SSH, not infested by DHS or other snoops, that would be great.
Infuriate left and right
Windows Mobile IS a disaster.
Lalala
I'm going to be in the market for an upgrade an a couple of months, and this is quite underwhelming. I'm sure there are some good things that weren't in TFA (I sure hope there was a lot left out).
No tetherability? Mmmm, that sucks.
No mention of GPS or an app. Perhaps an extortion-like monthly fee to get the feature will follow?
No desktop sync with calendar? That's going to be quite a hassle, especially since I can't tether to get online to the gFoo apps. Also, I sure hope they have balls-up caching for the gFoo apps like contacts and calendar. Not everyone who uses a pda-phone is in signal range for even GPRS all the time.
As for the Dream... what's with the button bar not moving? Did HTC have too many complaints from Blackberry users that their Hermes and TyTn keyboards were too large? They could have put a whole numeric keypad over there.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Why would Android have to keep handsets happy? Android is a platform, which a manufacturer decides to build a handset around. It is not a OS that will be shoe-horned into existing devices.
In other words, the manufacturer gets to decide whether or not Android will be a good fit. Assuming rational decision-makers, only appropriate handsets will be produced to use it.
Looks like it's all better now :)
The CB App. What's your 20?
Or they may, in fact, have been both.
Vote for global prefs bug
Windows IS a disaster(reveal Apple "fanboi").
dude, your dreamphone already exists: http://www.jitterbug.com/Phones.aspx Now you just have to download a "Git off my lawn!!" ringtone
Basic enough? And it's only $40. You could go more basic with a Tracphone (unlock it, and it'll work on any GSM network).
> What is my dream mobile phone? It is JUST A FREAKIN' PHONE. No touch screen. No web browsing. Just a single line B&W LCD, maybe two lines for easier caller ID printing. And with big buttons.
The early 90's called. Motorola would like to sell you this thing:
http://www.handcellphone.com/archives/the-coolest-cell-phones-that-i-used-to-dreamed-of
You can always open another Gmail account with as little info of yourself as possible. I have many of them I use for spam, newsletters etc, with no personal info. I don't see why you make such a big deal out of this...
"(including street view, a feature that is infuriatingly missing from the iPhone)"
I don't mean to be a troll, just curious. In what way is Google Street View useful?
Whale
I watched an interview with Eric Schmidt, CEO of Google, in which he said that the license for Android means that Yahoo could, for example, create their own version. (In the same interview, he said he would be happy if Microsoft built the next version of IE on Chrome).
Hopefully future vendors will drop the Google account requirement. There are rumors of a Sprint android phone, and AT&T has commented that they are considering it, for whatever that is worth.
Better would be to see something like OpenAndroid spring up to succeed where OpenMoko has so far failed.
This inconsistency is easily explained. I am good looking and charming. You... well, yeah...
TFA not finally write good, just /. Check it out
-- dnl
APCMag.com has an informative Q&A sit down with Android team member Dan Morrill. You can read it here.
Opportunities of a lifetime must be seized within the lifetime of the opportunity. - Linda Ravenhill
s/apple/xerox/g
Check out my sysadmin blog!
I think it makes more sense to refer to discrete entities in the singular, as the title does now.
Yes, Google is one company. Your car, like a company or a team, is a collection of discrete parts, as is your computer. Do you say "my car are out of gas" or "My computer are broken?"
Well, I guess if you're Cajun you do. Justing Wilson, "The Cajun Cook" told a rather nerdish joke on his cooking show:
A Cajun sends his son to college, and when the kid comes back he asks him "well, what did ya larn, boy?"
The kid thinks for a minute and says "Pi R square".
The old Cajun says "What kind 'o tomfoolery they teachin' you, boy? Pie are round, cornbread are square!"
Free Martian Whores!
Could this possibly lead to my dream mobile phone? Could it? With the Android platform being open-source, I think it is just possible.
Dude, Android has nothing to do with your dream phone. The Nokia 5190 was pretty much doing what you wanted it to 10 years ago. Pick one up off of eBay for less than $30 and be happy, unless you're worried that the extra features like SMS and Snake will interfere with your experience. Tell all your Slashdot friends who also just want a phone, too.
Tweet, tweet.
http://www.amazon.com/Motorola-Motofone-F3-Unlocked-Phone-International/dp/B0013A7KMW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=wireless&qid=1222198605&sr=8-1
Motorola F3. $35. B/W e-ink screen. No bells, no whistles.
"I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
So they edited out T-Mobile (because Google makes headlines interesting but T-Mobile does not) but left the rest. Copy and paste ftl.
Motorola A780? Has a touch screen, but buttons on the flip.
What is my dream mobile phone? It is JUST A FREAKIN' PHONE. No touch screen. No web browsing. Just a single line B&W LCD, maybe two lines for easier caller ID printing. And with big buttons.
Hey, I had one of those backin the late '90s! It was a Motorola Star-Tac. Unfortunately it was analog...
Free Martian Whores!
Psst: there's more than one moderator! There are, in fact, thousands of them! To expect them all to behave the same is, well, rather silly. To get upset about a single moderation to your post here is, well, rather sad.
everything in moderation
Symbian has a hard application framework to follow, the Google API/Framework is much nicer and so in that respect Android is good as anyone who can code can follow without to many problems.
Our small startup was going to do iPhone apps with a nice chunk of funding from some venture capital types.
Android was a bit under the radar for awhile and the other people I am working with were caught up in the Apple marketing hype. But then more and more developer nightmare stories about dealing with Apple kept coming up. And these were above and beyond the absurd NDA crap and other secrecy Apple holds to with their product plans raised all sorts of alarms. Even the money guys were getting worried that they were going to dump all this cash into projects that were completely at the mercy and whim of Apple.
We were about to go out and waste money on expensive Macs for everyone - one of our guys was insisting on some 4 grand Mac laptop.
All those plans are now scrapped. We are all working on Android by simply downloading the free SDK and eclipse IDE and up and running on our own PCs. We don't have to waste time learning damn Objective-C that no one outside of the niche Mac dev community has any experience with and instead were able to jump right in with our existing Java skills.
The sky is the limit for Android. Solid technology base that is completely open. All the benefits of open source Linux without all the useless development and API fragmentation. The amount of interest from cellphone makers and people beyond the cellphone market in leveraging Android for their devices makes it clear that the huge amount of developer interest is just going to continue to grow rapidly.
Anything a user wants will be appearing on Android. It's so easy to modify for whatever end users need and desire.
Bye bye Apple and iPhone. Hello Android. Google really came through big time with this platform.
Here is the scoop.
From TFA'a title: "T-Mobile, Google finally unveil the first Android phone". When the submitter took T-mobile out of the post, he left the plural by accident. My guess is that english is not his first language.
-- dnl
I don't mean to be a troll, just curious. In what way is Google Street View useful?
I've used it a few times to get a visual of a destination before traveling there. Street numbers are great, but it's nice to be able to recognize a place by sight as you're looking for it.
Tweet, tweet.
You aren't a fanboi. A fanboi is someone who follows someone or something without question and without financial compensation. You sound like someone who likes Apple's products. There is a difference.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
Your sig is great for your last post!
You are correct! I know it because it was my submission ;-)
-- dnl
It's disappointing that every reply is a joke. Phone after phone gave me terrible reception and dropped calls, to the point that I still go outside to talk on the phone, even though I now have a good phone, because I'm used to not being able to have a conversation inside.
Every time I replace a phone I hunted and hunted for reviews that would talk about the reception. Reading 10 page reviews talking about the battery life, 1 mpixel camera quality, automatic douche mode, I never found anything better than "reception was acceptable in Chicago." It's a god damned phone. Tell me how good it works as a phone.
Whale
So what you're saying is that iPhone security is so poor they *have* to bind it up for our protection. They could call it the iPwn.
Its a good thing there's not a "mobile windows" or it would be the end of cellular service as we know it!
we're already working on gplv3'ed ssh :) and its got some kick-butt features for terminal switching. check out the code and vids:
http://code.google.com/p/connectbot/
Android Pros:
* No emo retards/Mac loonies queuing up hours for it and spamming the Net with photographs of their pathetic asses
* No inane 'unboxing vids'
* You don't have to deal with the morons who try to work their iPhone into every single conversation they have with you
* You don't have to watch the dumbfucks who sit in public places awkwardly and desperately using their iPhone hoping other people will see them and think they are 'special'
Like Tony Blair!
The CB App. What's your 20?
Google Android, was expecting some sort of robotic pda/sex toy. Gotta cut down on that anime shit.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
this will be like PC vs Mac in the 90's the open platform will attract more developers, more manufacturers and eventually more users. the closed platform will be buried.
This program was made possible by a grant from the Ultra-Humanite, and viewers like you.
Nokia 3310, or perhaps 8210
Could this possibly lead to my dream mobile phone? Could it? With the Android platform being open-source, I think it is just possible.
Do Androids dream of electric sheep?
And do Scottish Androids dream of fucking them?
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Even if you could put a VoIP app on your phone,
The explorer turns to his trusty native guide, and points dramatically into the distance, and asks "what's that"... and from then on the mountain he was pointing at is known as "Mt YourFingerYouFool" in the local language...
The point isn't "you can't run Skype". That's just the finger. The mountain is "you can't just install anything you want on your open source Android phone".
Wow, there was me thinking that the Open Handset Alliance would be more um, open. But no, it was not to be. T-Mobile are stumbling along in Apple's wake and locking the phone to their network only. Maybe HTC are selling unlocked ones?
Windows Mobile IS a disaster.
How so?
~ Ron Fitzgerald
The G1 is so full of dealbreakers, it's simply sad.
Instead of an open platform, this is just another locked-down money-sink.
No tethering? Even my Samsung Blackjack does it... running WM 5.0.
No video? Every other handset can record video.
No exchange support? Why in the world not?
But to me, it's the tethering issue that really breaks the bank. Does T-mobile really think that consumers will pay upwards of $50/month for each internet-capable device they own?
Look at the laptop broadband market - it's almost strictly businessmen who both need dedicated access, and can write it off as an expense. What makes T-mobile think that all these people will suddently jump up and hand several hundred dollars per year to T-mobile. People adapt... people realize that they could live without such broad internet mobility, and they stop buying thigs... which is exactly the opposite of what T-mobile needs.
This is yet another example of unadulterated and shortsighted greed and the willingness to shoot yourself in the foot.
I love the manner in which Matthew Broderick here explains how excited he is about Android.
:)
>> To expect them all to behave the same is, well, rather silly.
Arrgh, silly but happens all the time around here.
windows mobile 5 is a disaster. neither the previous version were that bad, nor are the subsequent versions.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Why aren't more people interested in this gem if they are interested in an open handset/smartphone? I realize that it is a little buggy still and has no camera, but every time someone buys one of these and starts tinkering, a closed phone gets its wings. This this is a fantastic alternative to Apple/Google. Plus for 100 extra clams, you can get a debug board and tinker with the hardware too.
If you don't know what you're doing, you can't make mistakes.
How soon do you expect that? I personally would be fine with current SSH on the phone and screen on the remote system; scp would be nice but not necessary.
Infuriate left and right
You might also not be at all surprised to know that Google is working
Haven't pretty much ALL phone companies had a store to download shit from for a looooooooong time before iphone or even ipod
So it's safe to say you're not surprised. Seems the author was right. ;)
If you mean ringtones and games that you really rent since they expire and have to be re-bought in a month or three, yes. If you mean really like the apple app store with hundreds of free and useful apps, then no.
everything in moderation
Yeah, when I heard that Android was coming out on the Dream phone, I was pretty excited, but I figure I'll wait for the Electric Sheep app to come out before I actually make a purchase.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
It never fails. In every thread about Phones, There's always some Asshat that shows up that wants "Just a Phone" without the bells and whistles of whatever device is being talked about.
Never mind the fact is these devices exist and can be found easily. They still gripe, and more often than not, get modded up.
Do not read this
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Google has been very clear, with exception of areas which law prevents them from opening, they intend to open the platform to both developers and handset manufacturers. How is that even close to what Apple is doing? Thus far, Apple is well known for stomping on a long list of applications. Considering no evidence exists that Google plans to follow Apple and they have stated the opposite of Apple's policy, you seem to be far, far, far, out in left field here.
P.S. Looks great! Didn't mean to ignore that aspect :-)
Infuriate left and right
I think it's actually a perfectly good reason to to use a proper smart phone. And it doesn't really limit you nearly as much as you might think; it's a standard feature on the two most interesting current offerings: iPhone and Blackberry.
HTC's designs have always seemed like a mix of innovation and sloppiness and using a non-standard jack is just silly. Android is exciting, but wait for someone to put it into a platform that does the hardware portion right, or you might really regret it.
Quack, quack.
I just ordered mine and they charged me $299 for the phone because I am currently still in a contract. Why bother telling us about the $179 price since they push new phones on you when your contract is up in order to keep you in a contract. If only a very small percentage of your user base is not locked in a contract then its some pretty shady trickery to shove the $179 price down our throats. At least if I pay $299 don't make me still enter an additional 2 year contract. There are various places on the net reporting this, including Android's Forums.
Engadget has a couple of screens:
The applications screen shows an email client next to GMail. This screen shows the email setup wizard. So it seems like there is an alternative to gmail.
Unless you get third-party software, which is the whole selling point of this phone. How about this?
Android QuickOffice
Or you can write your own app to do that, which is the whole selling point of this phone.
If this phone/OS lives up to the hype, all these kinds of comments that we normally make about phones will become irrelevant. You don't complain that your new computer can't open a certain doctype; you just get the right software to do that. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for the walled-garden era on cell phones.
I have a phone like that. It was $10 new at Wal-mart. No contract, cheap minutes, works pretty well.
Seriously, how come there's always so many complaints about the availability of this on /., when these phones are so easily available?
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
Whether to treat as singular or plural depends on how the group is used in context --as a single entity or as individual members of the group. http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/group.html
Sometimes I worry that I'll develop Alzheimer's disease, but no one will notice.
Seriously. This phone is vendor locked. You can modify the OS code, sure... But you can't install the OS on it without it being signed by T-Mobile in some way so they can enforce their carrier lock. It's the same for apps. You can install anything you want but it has to be signed by Google, 'cause "malicious apps aren't allowed". Yeah. That's what Apple said too.
This is the iPhone. Made by Google.
Remember, the iPhone OS is open source too.
Come on now don't fall into this trap of thinking Apple did everything first (re. level sensing laptops).
Nah, they just built the first one people actually use.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Surely someone so interested in Blackberries as yourself would be aware that RIM has a new touchscreen blackberry about to be released called the Storm... http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/gsm-only-blackberry-storm-thunder-leaks-out/
Whether or not it's going to compete with the iPhone obviously has yet to be seen, but they're hardly resting on their laurels.
"You worthless post!"
-Shakespeare, 2 Gentlemen of Verona, 1. 1. 147
Please Verizon, please.....let this work out some kinks for a few months and release an Android phone around the holidays or shortly after. And don't badge it or lock it down!
Maybe if someone like Alltel gets it or something, it would be easy enough to connect to Verizon's network since the phone is open and all?
actually there is a "Windows Mobile", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile
It would actually be a relief to me if someone told me that they were all being secretly paid by Apple.
It seems to me that companies think that marketing their products as "open source" absolves them from actually sticking to the spirit of the concept. I would trade their open source concept for "open use".
I want to buy a phone that lets me actually use the technology as it was intended - not some crippled, locked-in subset of features. I don't care if it is running open source software or some proprietary stuff - I just want open access to all of the features that the technology should provide. This means full bluetooth support, being able to plug the phone into my computer if I want to sync or up/download data, or switch to a different provider if I find that my current one does not provide the coverage I need or is too expensive. The list is endless.
In other words, I am really tired of this vertical integration of services and hardware. It is all designed to lock in and control the user. Personally, I refuse to purchase anything that attempts to do this to me, within reason. So I'm still using my 8 year old motorola cellphone, but I'd love to upgrade to a more smartphone-like product that I can use freely. I wonder how many other people would jump at the chance to purchase a product and choose a service if this was the case? I live in Canada, and I have no wireless freedoms.
May I propose looking into the prepaid phones? They are the perfect hacker phone:
1. Cheap for low-minute users. Save your money for RAM.
2. Little to no personal information. No credit check. You can tell them whatever you want, and they don't care enough to validate. Helps relieve paranoia.
3. No contract, no obligation. Just let the minutes expire and dump the phone. Helps relieve paranoia.
4. Easily switchable. Psycho ex keep calling? Get a new account in a few minutes. With the GSM devices, just swap SIMs and burn the old one. Helps relieve paranoia.
I end up paying about $20/mon to keep my acct active with enough minutes. I pay about a nickel a minute to talk. If I break the phone, I hit wal-mart and get a replacement for $10, which they activate onto my existing account.
And the phone's a basic flip-device. No bells, no whistles. Did I mention the phone was $10 new? $10.
$10.
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
The Killer Feature I am hoping for: Lowered total cost of ownership
I don't have any interest in spending $500 to $1000 per year for a data plan on top of the usual voice plan, just so I can check my email while I wait for the dentist. It should be possible to offer an Android based phone with a data and voice plan that is the same as a basic phone's voice plan, or even less. I would make many of my calls from home anyway, so those can be routed over wi-fi, thus greatly reducing my usage of the cellular network.
This phone is not delivering this feature, but I am hoping another Android phone will. I'm not holding my breath though, because I know the last thing any American cell phone company wants to do is to compete on price.
Well, that's because no reviewer has the funds to travel all over the US (or world) doing a "can you hear me now" test. And, there are only a few chipset and antenna designs in use these days, all of which have been tested in "idealized" isolation chambers and perform within 1-2% of each other.
If you live in some remote place or around intereference that makes that 1-2% difference matter, sorry: 99% of us don't, and the reviewers are catering to the majority.
everything in moderation
The iPhone was locked in via an exclusivity deal. Android has no such lock - T-Mobile just got out the first release.
It's rumored that Sprint will have an Android phone soon. They're part of the Open Handset Alliance, anyway.
AT&T and Verizon could get on board, but so far I think they're waiting to see whether all this "openness" makes money or not.
You're thinking from the customer's point of view. Before Google's offering, there really has been nothing to challenge Apple's App Store from a developer's point of view.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
Actually, I think Thinkpads (and probably others) had accelerometers in their laptops before Apple. Unless you are referring to mean something more important than drive protection.
You could go more basic with a Tracphone.
I have a Tracfone, pay $.10 per minute on it, and get a few bars of reception in most places. The battery typically lasts me the whole week. For a person who only makes a few dozen short calls a month, it works out really well.
I just saw Tracfones @ Walmart for $10, they're the ones that have a SIM card, so you should be able to unlock them? It's very bare bones, but comes with a case, car charger & ear piece. Incredible what you can get for $10 these days!
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
letting people do what they want with it.
We shall see.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
People PAY for ringtones?
People PAY for mobile applications?
WTF?
Totally off-topic, but am I the only one who finds all this talk about "fanbois" to be annoying and childish? The word itself is even worse than "blog", and most of the time people who try to call someone out for being a "fanboi" are doing it because they're fanatical about some other product.
If we must talk about this sort of thing, how about at least using the word "fanatic". It's a drop-in replacement for "fanboi", and it also has the advantage of being a real word.
Oh.. Yeah. I guess I should stop using my Thinkpad.
Since IBM brought the feature out only two years before Apple, I can see how, given the time difference, we should credit this one to Apple.
Just about anything can get modded "Interesting," eh?
I seem to remember them saying they were dropping some APIs because of how they could be exploited. (nothing to do with "the law"), and because they were slacking off and ran out of time.
In fact, it was on slashdot.
http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/26/168251
See subject line.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
> You aren't a fanboi. A fanboi is someone who follows someone or something without question and without financial compensation.
Ron Paul!
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
I've been looking into prepaid phones to save money. Which service do you use that costs only 5 cents a minute?
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
News to me too. I download FOSS ones. Because my platform isn't DRM-fucked by an evil monopoly;)
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
In my experience:
* Random reboots
* Hard locks that cause the phone to need a hard reset to reboot (even battery-bouncing doesn't work)
* Strange issues where my call will fail if my text message app is open in the background (have to use task manager to close it. No "exit" option in the app itself).
* Similar issues with Data access, causing data access to fail until I reboot (or the phone does it itself)
* Slow text input processing combined with buffer-interrupts (when I can overtype the input buffer, but "Send" works immediately, sending 50% of a text).
Disclaimer: This is my first and last Windows Mobile/Smartphone device (Moto Q9c). Some/all of the above could be phone defects rather than OS. Either way, once I'm out of this contract, it's going bye bye.
Could this possibly lead to my dream mobile phone? Could it? With the Android platform being open-source, I think it is just possible.
Um, no, actually it's going in the opposite direction. In fact, there's really no reason for you to be spouting that in this thread at all. Unless, of course, you're trying to recoup some lost karma points. ;)
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Dude, pass the bong. I want some of that shit.
But no matter how bad the Google situation is, at least you won't have to jailbreak the damn thing to run non-approved apps.
For specific device at least ? Or it's Android SDK Java only still ? Android will have hard time competing with iPhone application-wise without native code support.
android looks promising. maybe the g1 isn't perfect, but it seems that it shows the potential of the platform. there's more on this interesting article.
On the iphone, ringtones are aac files with a different extension, so you can just clip them to 30 seconds and rename the file. Drag and drop in itunes, and you've got free ringtones.
As for applications... I paid for one, an ssh client. I don't see it as a great hardship to pay $3 for something like that, it's worth it if I use it on the road for work just once.
There are a lot of nice free apps available too, the only thing I really feel like I'm missing is tethering.
Serious question here - IMAP IDLE allows you to simulate push email because it keeps the TCP session live and the server sends a message to the client when email is received.
Which is not a million miles away from push email (though the server doesn't send the email itself, the client still has to request it).
So will this phone support it? It's depressingly thin on the ground in terms of phone support.
This fits with the American ideal of granting corporations "personhood". It makes it easy to avoid blame when things go wrong.
The company did it. Nobody in particular did it, just the company did it.
The government did it. Nobody in particular did anything wrong, just the government did it.
See how that works?
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
I got a free phone with my contract but my monthly minimum is 9 Euros, not 50 ($74).
No sig today...
And politically correct! Fanperson would also be good.
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
Actually, all the Ron Paul supporters I know are more intelligent and informed than your average voter. By the GP's definition of fanboi, you'll definitely find a higher proportion supporting the two majors.
~ I am logged on, therefore I am.
They dropped them for several reasons. If you read the comments you'll find they dropped those APIs because the APIs were under developed and/or in flux and as such, do not belong in a production release. This is common for software development. They plan on adding things back in when they have time to refocus efforts to make things better.
In other words, their decision is about quality, not restricting freedom.
Will really come out of the woodwork on this one :-)
Did you notice that you wanted to talk about Apple before anyone else did? Instead of talking about the benefits or drawbacks of Android, you wanted to troll about Apple. Think about it.
You bought an ssh client? You do know you can get that on the iPhone for free, right?
Speaking of Apple and Android, I wish I could find out if it will be possible to sync calendars/contacts etc. with a Mac. I haven't been able to find info on this yet.
I am just about to abandon my old, busted Treo for a new smartphone, and I need to decide between iPhone and the HTC. Successfully syncing with my mac is a priority ... it's a royal PITA with the Treo, when it's even possible.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
"If your total data usage in any billing cycle is more than 1GB, your data throughput for the remainder of that cycle may be reduced to 50 kbps or less."
http://www.t-mobileg1.com/3g.aspx
My impression of the android platform was that all apps were equal. If that's the case, is there anything stopping you from stripping off the google ones and replacing them?
If all the google apps turn out to be open source (which it sounded like they were going to do) then that'd be even easier.
Except that the concept of the limited company dates back at least to renaissance Europe, and probably earlier.
Still, anti-corporate rants are very much in vogue, so don't let anything trivial like facts stand in your way.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
So your problem with Windows Mobile is that it behaves like Windows?
I heard that the new Google phone causes incontinence. The high-frequency radio waves interact with the iron in the lower intestine.
Just what I heard...
"In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
So, is it going to record all of your conversations "for your convenience" so "you" can search through them at any time later?
Nah, they just built the first one people actually use.
Nah, App Tapp Install did that.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
As do I.
I have Windows Mobile.
On my phone, ringtones can be MP3s with a file extention of MP3.
You can just clip them to 30 seconds and drag and drop on the phone / micro SD card.
Why pay when there are free alternatives?
You can't tether? Sucks.
Moshe is on his way now to squash these iPhone replicants.
Namaste.
Yeah, it's sad when M$ is less anti-competitive than Apple, but hardly the first time.
I have Angstrom:-)
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
I have a Windows Mobile phone with T-Mo. They cleared the simlock for me when I asked.
I can run any application, can tether to my laptop over bluetooth (though it tethers much more reliably to a linux host than a winxp one) and it just seems to work.
I couldn't get in-situ debugging to work from visual studio, but that's probably visual studio being useless.
Essentially. I have facepalmed many times, proclaiming "What was I thinking? I won't let windows on my network, why the hell would I buy a windows phone?!"
My own fault, admittedly, but Windows Mobile 6 is indeed a disaster, contrary to earlier posts to the contrary.
Or so they say. Until they deliver, no amount of promises will mean anything.
If anything, pushing out a product before it's truly ready demonstrates that this will be just another botched, half-finished product.
Google had to get something tangible out by this year or risk falling into vaporware status. By all accounts so far, the results are unimpressive.
You have to sell this to people, and it has to be demonstrably better than the competition. You can't nerd your way into your Aunt's life and say "get this, it's better, because..." like you did with Firefox.
If Google cut out the APIs because of time, I hope they can shoehorn them back in and keep everything compatible. None of this re-versioning of a standard that isn't even on shelves yet (fuck you, HDMI).
If Google cut out the APIs because they really aren't your bestest buddy, and don't actually give a crap about you, then Android is no different from all the other platforms out there.
A great platform and some good handsets supporting it would be awesome. Competition would be awesome. But I have no blind faith in Google, and I don't trust any corporations promises for a second.
As I see it:
That phone that they unveiled? Meh.
No bluetooth API? Sucks.
No GTalk or whatever API? Who cares?
Promises of freedom and lollipops? Show me the money.
I never found anything better than "reception was acceptable in Chicago." It's a god damned phone. Tell me how good it works as a phone.
You are the reviewer that reviews the sort of phones that you'd buy, whilest using it under the conditions that you'd use phones under.
Get your own free personal location tracker
I don't have an MBA, and even if I did it would be worth far less than 4 digit ID, but isn't that a good thing?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Here's T-Mobile's unlock FAQ
https://support.t-mobile.com/knowbase/root/public/tm51885.htm
The HTC Dream/T-Mobile G1 is not on the "can not unlock" list, but maybe they haven't gotten around to it. And one of the rules for unlocking is you can't do it during the 14-day buyer remorse period and you've been under contract at least 90 days.
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
Well, it doesn't bloody work for me under iTunes 8 and iPhone 2.01. I wrote and recorded the MP3 I'm trying to add as a ring tone and the only thing that's done it is iToner, which is 15 dollars for the licence. Grr.
Well, it doesn't bloody work for me under iTunes 8 and iPhone 2.01. I wrote and recorded the MP3 I'm trying to add as a ring tone and the only thing that's done it is iToner, which is 15 dollars for the licence. Grr.
What's stopping you from updating to 2.1?
What's good for the developer is good for the customer, if it leads to a thriving marketplace.
What the App Store has done is given people with technical skills but no MBA (like myself) an opportunity to get paid for implementing their ideas.
What remains to be seen is whether the chaff will drown out the wheat in the Android Market without the auditing process of the iTunes Store. Ratings are all well and good on YouTube, but viral videos aren't viruses. Android prides itself on not being locked down, but you can't have it both ways...
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
Let me guess. Your idea of a limitation for a Music Player is that it doesn't allow Wifi Skype to make phone calls?
No. My idea of 'limitation' is that I had to pay $0.99 for a metric-to-english calculator, whereas it would have been free on my Treo. I like the iPod, I'm sure I'd like an iPhone of my own, but I'm not looking forward to the blatant attempts to milk money out of me.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
On the other hand, "T-Mobile did not specify whether such a thing would be allowed if a third-party were to develop it" does mean "T-Mobile can control the apps you install on the phone".
After hearing about the release of the phone I have been saving my discount for I decided to actually call T-Mobile and do some digging. While most of the complaints I have seen here are valid, they wouldn't really stop me from buying this phone today. Unfortunately there are other reasons which have helped with my decision to wait. First off, the Wi-Fi HotSpot service which allows unlimited calls for $10 per month using Wi-Fi is unavailable. This is a huge feature to me considering the amount of time I am around wireless networks and considering the many places that don't have signal but do have Wi-Fi. Since the phone is open source, hopefully this is a feature that can be added after purchase but I will be waiting to see about this. Secondly, my discount that I have been saving for this particular phone doesn't change the price from what a new user would be getting it for. I realize that this is for the pre-order and only prior customers can get it however right now this is a factor. This is one thing I am hoping will change when the phone is open to the public and I will be waiting till then to check back and possibly order. Anyway, I am really excited to see this release but right now it needs to fix a few things before it will really take off and before I will purchase one.
Utinam me logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant.
Check out the MOTOFONE - it's super slim, very simple UI that only makes calls, and it's got a super-low power e-ink display that gives a battery life of like a week. Also it's super cheap, you can get it for like $30-$50 unlocked with no contract.
sig? uhh, umm, ok
Well, that's swell and all if you want someone else to be in charge of your embedded appliance. But the promise is smartphones is to make them more PC like, and a lot of people want that. Not everyone? Fine.
(And by PC-like, I don't mean Windows. I mean personal computer. Remembers that PCs don't have to suck.)
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
I don't say "my car are out of gas" or "my computer are broken", but then, i don't talk to my engine or my RAM.. well, maybe the RAM a bit..
Point is, components are not people. Makes a lot of difference.
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
I see what you did there..
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
With all of it's features, cheap internet access and plays duke nukem 3D and old Nintendo games,
DON"T THINK I"LL BE WISHING I BOUGHT A DREAM
There is a sweet site for the shadow: http://allshadow.com/
Namaste
Second, multi-touch really isn't all that ground-breaking. I see it as similar to mouse gestures.
That might be how you see it, but you couldn't be more wrong on that point. I have explored mouse gestures from time to time, and while sometimes useful it's usally more gimmick than help. Mutlitouch on a touch screen is way more useful than mouse gestures (though it's been around as a concept for a long time so ground-breaking is not really the proper term).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Modern JIT's are good enough that any difference between "native" code and Java will be negligable, especially so since the phones will ship with chips and systems optimized to run Java well.
It aint 1998, and we aren't talking applets here.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Why hasn't this happened on open frameworks like Windows Mobile?
+++ATH0
You might wanna check out the Motorola F3, it sounds similar to what you're looking for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_FONE_F3
Let me guess. Your idea of a limitation for a Music Player is that it doesn't allow Wifi Skype to make phone calls?
Sorry to reply twice to your message, but I think the troll mod is lame. I think you're bringing up a valid point about fickleness. I agree that it's silly to base a judgement over what something doesn't have when the value is clearly in what it does have. I don't think you should have gotten a troll mod for pointing that out.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Relative to PalmOS, Windows Mobile cures cancer.
OSX on the iPhone might be a little slicker, but there is A LOT (at least 100X) more software for Windows Mobile and it's much easier to develop custom apps. Ditto for Blackberries. If you need to make a custom cellphone or PDA app for your company your choices are basically Windows Mobile and nothing.
The tradeoff is that Windows Mobile is buggy crashy.
Crap! I just bought an Instinct.
I just *wish* that devices actually used some sort of standard USB plug. Sure, electrically USB is USB, but I personally own FIVE g*dd**n different USB cables for different devices. All of them have one full sized USB end, and one "micro" end for the small device... but the rub is that they took great pains to make each one a slightly different shape than the others.
I've seen other versions of this monstrosity too, but in my own possession are: 1) The RAZR telephone that I killed by dropping it in water (oops, but not a criticism of the device); 2) The RAZR2 I bought to replace it; 3) The new digital camera I bought a month ago; 4) The old digital camera I bought a few years ago; 5) A digital voice recorder. Finding just the right USB cable to charge or transfer data from each device is a completely unnecessary PITA!
Buy Text Processing in Python
You could download Units for free from the App Store, but I guess you wouldn't have anything to complain about then...
Facebook is the new AOL
Now all they need are some androids to which to sell these. I predict a doomed product.
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
Since when? I'm pretty sure both Google and Apple are foreign too, based somewhere over in the Americas.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
And just like Apple has done with the iPhone, T-Mobile will be working hard to make sure you can't update the firmware of their phones with non-T-Mobile versions
Apple updates have not always broken Jailbroken versions of the phone. Generally they do because Jailbreaking requires exploting security holes that a reasonable user would not want left open, but even then they'll just close off the hole but your phone is still Jailbroken.
I remain cautiously optimistic about Google in this regard, I think we'll see the Jailbreaking equivilent for Android and it will remain the same deal where if you just wait a week or two for official updates, you'll be able to keep using an alternate OS version.
There seems to be less need With Android though.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Tethering and Skype are major concerns, both things that keep the iPhone undesirable. I also assume that on an open source platform these, and the other features you mention, will come soon, but I would definitely like some clarity beforehand.
You can buy an official Skype app today from the iPhone App Store (WiFi only).
Tethering is a bit different if you didn't manage to buy the app when it is out, but given how easy it is to create a proxy I can't see it being long before someone releases source for an iPhone tehering proxy. Then you can just compile and install it yourself...
A simple "but of course, we expect many will use it so, as there are no inherent limitations that would prevent such functionality from being implemented" would have been nice.
I remain skeptical on this point - to me what they said to all of us was basically they are of the same mind as AT&T on this. I don't see why they would be any different.
I'm torn on this issue, since the heavy buzz of this phone going head-to-head with the iPhone (ignoring all the other smart phones out there), seems to place extra importance on the G1's success.
I honestly do not think it matters as much as mor ephones comong out, Android only has buzz in the tech community and not really any with the general populace (yet) so one iffy intiial phone launch will not sink them, especially not the way it would have Apple if they had got it totally wrong. The factors that make it harder for Android to achieve runaway success also insulate it from failure.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
i feel the same way about the Sony PSP. personally, i think the PSP is an excellent piece of hardware. it's really quite an impressive feat of engineering in that respect. for someone like me, who likes traditional console-type games but prefers a portable platform and also wants a general portable entertainment device (not just a gaming system) it's absolutely perfect.
however, the tact that Sony has taken to maximize profits from the PSP by screwing over their customers is really unconscionable IMO. i mean, the PSP was advertised as a portable entertainment system that not only played PSP games, but also played PSX games. that was a huge selling point for me personally. unfortunately, PS1 games for the PSP were only legally available from the PSN store. and, despite the fact that the PSP has wi-fi capabilities and a built-in web browser (another widely advertised feature), Sony insisted on requiring the PSP to be hooked up to a PS3 in order to access PSN content.
so in essence, Sony was telling PSP owners that if they wanted to access one of the main entertainment features of the PSP they needed to also buy a $600 PS3. there was absolutely no reason for this restriction other than to milk PSP owners for more money in a bait-n-switch tactic.
of course, this strategy often backfired and many people just turned to homebrew and CFW which allowed them to convert their own PSX games to POPS format. although Sony has finally realized their mistake and is gradually working to bring the PSN store to the PSP directly--or at least let PSP owners access the PSN via their desktop computer (though only with Internet Explorer on Windows)--most people have already grown accustomed to just downloading pre-converted PSX off of the internet since it's so much more convenient than the legal route.
i use one of the new discount providers cricket mobile. For 45.00 per month i get unlimited anytime minutes + free internet. Another 35 a month gets me unlimited high speed internet to my laptop( there is a 1 time 50.00 hardware cost)
The only way to bust a doper--is when you yourself become a smoker!
correlation=/= causation. You may know that these Ron Paul supporters are intelligent, but they're equally likely enough to all just be nerds inhabiting the /. community.
All the whiners who have been complaining that apple uses heavy handed tactic will now see that Android will do much the same. Tethering? No sorry. Using apps that replace t-mobile services? No Sorry.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Could someone enlighten me as to what this is? I've seen it a few times on slashdot, and I understand the meaning from context, but where does it come from?
In the vi editor in Unixes, that command string would substitute the string "xerox" everywhere the string "apple" was previously.
It's another way of saying "Everything you just said about apple is equally applicable to Xerox".
http://www.saki.com.au/mirror/vi/subst.php3
Check out my sysadmin blog!
I have a tilt as well, and can definitely vouch for this. Despite being a -huge- supporter of FLOSS, I have (and enjoy) my tilt. I really wanted to find a Linux-based smartphone within my price range, with the features that I wanted. The OpenMoko was too costly.
It came down to these things:
* I needed (actually, really wanted) a touch screen and wi-fi. This phone does both.
* I wanted to ability to install/develop apps for my phone without any policing. This scrapped the iPhone in my plans (Yes, I know about jailbreaking. I have several reasons about why I'm morally opposed to this, which I won't get into).
* I wanted expandable storage. The tilt goes up to 32GB, and it's removable. Try doing that with an iPhone.
The integrated GPS, slide-out keyboard, GPRS/EDGE, 3 megapixel camera, and charge-via-USB were just additional perks, but quite appreciated.
Linux and other OSS-based phones will eventually start making a dent in the US market, which will bring the cost down. I'm not crazy or proud about usinga Windows Mobile-based phone. It's not Free, but parts of it can be deemed as "open".
Long story short, the tilt is a very robust phone. It does have some very important shortcomings; mostly due to HTC's reluctance to release any of their specs, and the fact that only runs Windows Mobile. That being said, the fact that you can do all of the things mentioned above with Windows Mobile, along with being able to develop and distribute your own apps for it (look up PuTTY and OpenVPN. There are Windows Mobile versions for both) is pretty cool. Intel even a released a BSD-Licensed SDK for mobile apps (MPSDK).
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that my laptop runs Ubuntu. The tilt integrates quite well with it, when using USB or wi-fi. Bluetooth doesn't quite work yet, but that's due to the unfinished subsystem packaged along with Ubuntu 8.04.
Spork.
P.S. Spork.
Let me guess. Your idea of a limitation for a Music Player is that it doesn't allow Wifi Skype to make phone calls?
No. My idea of 'limitation' is that I had to pay $0.99 for a metric-to-english calculator, whereas it would have been free on my Treo. I like the iPod, I'm sure I'd like an iPhone of my own, but I'm not looking forward to the blatant attempts to milk money out of me.
Write it. Submit it and add some other functionality. You might even get paid.
Well, it doesn't bloody work for me under iTunes 8 and iPhone 2.01. I wrote and recorded the MP3 I'm trying to add as a ring tone and the only thing that's done it is iToner, which is 15 dollars for the licence. Grr.
Right-click your MP3 in iTunes and choose "Convert to AAC". Then right-click the new file and choose "Show in Finder". Make a copy of that on the desktop and change the extension of it to .m4r. Delete the old AAC file from iTunes and drag the new one back into iTunes. I just did it last night with a bunch of MP3s I DL'd from the 'Net and they sync'd to my iPhone just fine after I remembered to check the "Sync Ringtones" option in iTunes ;-).
"terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution
Virgin mobile, which uses Sprint's network.
Buy minutes in bulk @ virgin mobile. The only problem is, unless you pump $20/mon into the acct each month, the minutes expire in a month.
But $20/mon isn't too bad for me, and I can just let those $20 additions accumulate until I can either bulk-buy another 5c/min.
Also, not worrying about a broken/lost phone is pretty nice. A decent pitcher of beer costs more than the damage I could do to the phone from drinking the pitcher!
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
I never read phone ads and don't care since that bullshit is how they always puts the prices and I'm so fucking tired of it. Just tell me what it will cost, not what I will pay when I get it.
Also I kind of never makes cellular phone calls so a phone without anything + pre-paid card would work just fine for me.
I don't know if I like the looks of this phone, too bad since I'd really like something open.
I think that may be the sparsest coverage map I have ever seen. I guess it's a good price if you happen to live in one of the handful of cities they serve and never leave it, though.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
Thanks for the info. Unfortunately it seems like Virgin has rather poor coverage. Kind of funny, really. On their coverage map page they start off with "Virgin Mobile has a great coverage area.", then shows this teeny sparse network which leaves out entire states. I guess you can't win them all. The cheap guys seem like they always have bad coverage, and the ones with good coverage are more expensive than I want to pay. Guess I'll have to decide just how much that coverage is worth to me.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
I am not sure if Android supports MIDP Java applications, but I can run a GPL Java SSH client on my low budget phone without problems
MOD THE CHILD UP!
> Call me paranoid
You're paranoid, dude!
"The concept of the limited company" is rather distant from the concept of corporate personhood.
Can you install your own build of Android, for example? Get rid of all the T-Mobile crap it probably comes with, and choose what you want to install? Or do they prevent you from reflashing somehow?
I realise that eventually people will get around any such limitation and figure out how to reflash the phone, but it really bothers me because we shouldn't have to as they are touting this as an "open platform." It's already inexcusable that the sim card is locked in this thing. So is it really open, or is it just all hype?
Want to convert units on your iPhone or Touch? Open Safari, google "$x $unit in $metric". Can I have $0.99 now? ;)
Want to convert units on your iPhone or Touch? Open Safari, google "$x $unit in $metric". Can I have $0.99 now? ;)
Sure, if you can get wifi access into the building I'll need it in. ;)
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
You aren't a fanboi. A fanboi is someone who follows someone or something without question and without financial compensation.
But that's not the way it is used around here, where anybody who enjoys using Apple products, or disagrees with the bashing of Apple is labeled a "fanboi."
I've never actually come across anybody who follows Apple without question, so why is the term used so widely? Such a person would actually be a very rare find - yet the term is used blatantly and indiscriminately.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Fanboi is a play on the phrase Skater Boi from some mousy singer that I forget.
Which is one of the reasons it's such a lame and stupid word. It was lame and stupid when pop-chick-singer (Pink?) used it for "Skater Bois", and it's lame now.
... and then they built the supercollider.
News to me too. I download FOSS ones.
That's why my ringtone is Richard Stallman singing The Free Software Song.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Unless that's satire, I just lost all respect for you as a human being;)
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
Open Source is the good. But were not going to see an avalanche of apps for Android like we have for, say, iPhone. Java apps are all it will run. Java is great for lots of stuff... but IMHO, running Java on a phone has been, and will continue to be a bad idea. I just don't forsee Java developers flocking to write cute little phone apps... what they do isn't easy and they work on serious stuff. And I've never seen a pretty Java app., just functional ones with clunky UI. It's hard to believe Google would make this mistake. I think the Android hype is going to dry up quick once consumers realize it's limitations.
The Admin and the Engineer
Yeah - that would be great - available "soon".
Why am i one of the few that does NOT find it unusual.
Windows (And windows mobile, Linux, etc) are Operating Systems designed to run applications. Thats their key function.
Windows may not be an "amazing system", but it allows applications to run. There may be some "safety roadblocks" to prevent issues, but most can be resolved.
Even the draconian Vista with its DRM infested media players, etc, there is nothing stopping you from replacing the media player with VLC, or anything.
For example, its DRM is only for these stupidly infected practices using by the content providers, etc. There is theoretically nothing stopping you from creating your own media format, and players, and not having to deal with the "secure DRM pathways", on Vista.
Same thing on Windows mobile. You CAN change the dialer, music player.. anything. Most HTC phones ship with an alternative dialer, close application functionality, and a different media player). You can install opera, webkit, and even portable MiniMo browsers.
on the iPhone, you cannot create an application that provides a better/different music player, dialer, mail, and many others.
Have a nice day!
Almost every phone I have had from my T68i in 2001 allowed some way of downloading AND sharing (via BT/IR/SMS/EMAIL/MMS) of ringtones. Starting with iMelody formats, then MIDI, then MP3/AAC, then recorded formats, and some phones even allow video for ringtones.
My SonyEricsson K800i even has a built in video editor (VideoDJ) which allows you to cut, insert, title and mix ANY videos (even changing the soundtrack), then using as a Video Ringtone, or Sending via MMS/email/bluetooth. Its not even a Smartphone.
My Nokia N95 does not have it built in (I have the new 8gb version which removed the video editor), but software can be obtained.
So frankly the Apple way of doing it, is a little clumsy.
Have a nice day!
If we must talk about this sort of thing, how about at least using the word "fanatic". It's a drop-in replacement for "fanboi", and it also has the advantage of being a real word.
Please! Use English, don't devalue it.
Fanatic is a word with a specific meaning. Someone who blows up a truck bomb outside a crowded hotel for ideological reasons is a fanatic. Someone who prefers Brand X mobile phones to Brand Y mobile phones is not a fanatic - unless he is prepared to kill anyone who doesn't share his beliefs.
Someone who simply prefers Brand X to Brand Y may be a discriminating consumer, or a fashion victim, or a fanboi, but he is most certainly not a fanatic
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
Or so they say. Until they deliver, no amount of promises will mean anything.
That's generally a fair statement. On the other hand, AFAIK, Google has a good track record for following through on their public statements.
If anything, pushing out a product before it's truly ready demonstrates that this will be just another botched, half-finished product.
I don't believe you understand the situation. They took out the components which were half-finished; thusly releasing a product which was finished. Lacking features is not the same as unfinished.
I have no blind faith in Google,
I have to agree with you here. Let's see what happens. If they fail to follow up then I'll be standing beside you on that soap box of yours. ;)
hehe. You got me. All that I can say in my defense is that english is not my first language ;-)
-- dnl
Could someone enlighten me as to what this is? I've seen it a few times on slashdot, and I understand the meaning from context, but where does it come from?
man sed.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
Your hourly salary.
A glass of beer that is 3x overpriced at cafes.
I paid 36c for a tomatoe for my sandwich today, is that too much? It got used once, it was 70% water... it didnt break the bank.
Sure you could write your own app to do, but could you do it in 8mins?
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
No headphone jack. 1Gb cap. lame.
mod me funny
If you had bothered to look in the App Store you would have seen it's right there. If you'd rather be smugly upset, go for it. I'm just saying, there's a free unit converter, there for the pickin.
Facebook is the new AOL
I don't believe you understand the situation. They took out the components which were half-finished; thusly releasing a product which was finished. Lacking features is not the same as unfinished.
Would you say the same about Vista?
As it is, the G1 is just another phone. Vista was just another operating system after they gutted all the useful features in order to get the damn thing launched. The launch of Vista was plagued by horrible driver support and a few serious bugs that were stamped out with SP1. I have yet to see a major cell phone launch that wasn't plagued by some dumb, easily avoidable bugs/flaws that resulted in a second revision or a firmware/OS update most users would never get. (One thing the iPhone got right was easy firmware upgrading.)
That's generally a fair statement. On the other hand, AFAIK, Google has a good track record for following through on their public statements.
Following through is great, but delivering is another thing. When was the last time Google wowed you? For me, it was when the search engine first took off. GMail is nice, but it's not really superior to others unless you really like tagging. Google Maps is a clone of Mapquest. Google Earth was bought from Keyhole. Google Docs or whatever is something that simply will never interest me or the corporate world.
Google is entering a MUCH more competitive market than they're used to. I don't think they'll find the success they've found in the past if they try to sell on brand alone. Of course, this is why Google is making a platform, not a phone. Google gets to sell the platform to the carriers based on brand, while management whispers "this could be the next iPhone!" during the presentation. The actual task (and risk) of trying to sell phones based on Android is left with the carriers, not Google.
I guess we'll know in a month, but as I see it, stripping features for time is almost always a bad sign. Perhaps now that one of the cats is out of the bag we'll get more info on other Android-based phones.
Pretty blah if you ask me... seems rushed and not very feature complete.
I guess it's okay for those wanting to develop apps as a test device. Otherwise it's really not a player in the smartphone market.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
I think you're the one misusing the English language. The word "fan" is a shortening of the word "fanatic". So when you say, "I'm a fan of Brand X," you're basically claiming to be a fanatic anyway.
The word "fanatic" in no ways implies violence, but only an irrationally high level of enthusiasm for something. I can be fanatical about cleanliness, which might mean that I have OCD, but don't in any way imply that that I'm going to hurt anyone. There's no corruption of the English language there.
"Fanboi", on the other hand, it total crap.
treacherous platform is a form of DRM.
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
This begs the question, does common language change over time? :)
Your use of the phrase "begs the question" implies that yes, it does. Intentional?
I actually think your original wording was fine, but i don't speak American English ;)
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
Would you say the same about Vista?
I do not have Vista experience. From what I've read about it, I would say the same. Having said that, MS has their own sets of problems. A production release from them is almost always an alpha or beta quality product. So in all fairness, Vista's rough edges have more to do with the fact that it's from MS than any other factor. Even MS has admitted they released an alpha quality product. Specifically, MS does this for purely marketing reasons too. More below.
Removal of half finished products does not mean you have a quality product. After all, ultimately, we must all be judged based on what we bring to the table. Without regard for what was delivered in the final product, they are still judged based on what they released.
As it is, the G1 is just another phone. Vista was just another operating system after they gutted all the useful features in order to get the damn thing launched. The launch of Vista was plagued by horrible driver support and a few serious bugs that were stamped out with SP1. I have yet to see a major cell phone launch that wasn't plagued by some dumb, easily avoidable bugs/flaws that resulted in a second revision or a firmware/OS update most users would never get. (One thing the iPhone got right was easy firmware upgrading.)
This is a distinct issue and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. These problems from the fact that the majority of software development is poorly managed to meet an arbitrary release date rather than based on the merits of the software it self. This underscores how broken and poorly managed software development is (you can directly thank MS for this innovation) rather than attempting to release a product when it is done.
MS has single handedly done more to break the software industry and any other company or entity. IMO, if it were not for MS setting a new low standard for the industry, Open Source would have likely never gained traction.
When was the last time Google wowed you?
I don't subscribe to the "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Having said that, Google Maps and Google Earth did wow me.
Google Maps is a clone of Mapquest. Google Earth was bought from Keyhole.
Google Maps innovated what Mapquest did poorly. Google set the new standard for online mapping applications. Google proved a high level of user interaction is possible despite it being a web based application. If you want to argue that's personal opinion, I'll accept that.
I'm not familiar with Keyhole so I can't comment.
Google Docs or whatever is something that simply will never interest me or the corporate world.
Google Docs doesn't have strong interest from me either but it does for many. And a product offering need not garner corporate interest to have value. Many do find value here and once again they did innovate. Impressing you is not a qualifier for innovation. ;)
Of course, this is why Google is making a platform,
I agree. In other words, they innovated in a market which is already saturated and appear to have a foot in the door. Time will tell if they have a success on their hands. Having said that, pretty much all of the other phone platforms out there suck badly. Providing a coherent platform which is easy to develop for, assuming it's even one iota better than what's out there (which isn't hard), will allow vendors to make better products which will help innovate the entire industry. Obviously they have a lot to prove but it doesn't hurt me to sit back and watch the show.
Even if they fail, chances are it will force innovation elsewhere in the industry and in the end, it is still likely a win for you and me.
The actual task (and risk) of trying to sell phones based on Android is left with the carriers, not Google.
This is true but right now each one must develop and innovate to bring product offerings. Android offers the ability to develop on a standardized, easy to use platform, al
Treacherous platform is "required" to run "Treacherous Apllications" that may or may not access "Treacherous media". None treacherous content/applications need to use the Teacherous parts of the platform :)
And somehow, I dont see MS yet preventing Firefox, etc on Vista.
Indeed, before they released Vista, they invited the Mozilla folks to test, Firefox on vista completely, as they consider Firefox as a "Tier 1" application that HAS to run.
Have a nice day!
So basically:
"MS sucks, Google is different and would never do the horrible things MS does. Also, MS is a jerk and has ruined the industry. That's why Google had to rip out features to launch early, so if it sucks, I'll blame MS.
Google is great, they wowed me in the past and I am now a loyal follower for no other reason. I couldn't be bothered to google "keyhole" (despite how much I love Google) and notice that the first hit is earth.google.com, or that the wikipedia entry states that Google simply bought out Keyhole and their existing Earth Viewer."
Bye bye.
Nice troll. I said nothing even close to what you're implying. You've obviously gone on an unprovoked rampage. Re-read what I said. Despite your posturing, I'll go ahead and reply.
MS sucks, Google is different and would never do the horrible things MS does.
I said give Google a chance to see if they can deliver before you start bashing them. Be an optimist until you have reason to become hyper-critical. The list is never ending to be hyper-critical of MS. Thus far we have every indication Google is doing it right yet you still want to bash them for doing it right?!?! How screwed up is that? That's a huge difference. Using you're own logic, since MS sucks all companies suck. There is a gaping hole in your logic a mile wide.
If you want to be hyper-critical of every company, fine, but don't expect everyone to be drinking from your cup.
Is it really that hard to base an opinion on merit? Thus far, Google has a good reputation based strictly on merit. On the other hand, MS has a world's worst reputation, again based solely on merit. In other words, it's deserved. They do a lot of things wrong. If you believe Google's reputation is undeserved, please enlighten me. It may be I'm out of touch with Google's wrong doings.
Also, MS is a jerk and has ruined the industry.
That's you're words, not mine. But to sit there casting stones as if MS has no influence on its industry and that they've never done anything wrong is to be completely blind. You're position is silly to say the least. Why is it with facts that upset you so? Does it really upset to know that before MS made buggy, incomplete, alpha-quality releases the norm for the industry, the industry by in large actually attempted to have quality releases. It doesn't always work, but that was the target goal. These days, thanks to MS, the norm is the standard set by MS and the exception is quality.
Are you really blind to their crimes and the broader negative impact to the industry? Or just trolling? You seriously believe Linux would have the market and mind share it does now if it were not for MS? It's not like I'm pulling this from a hat. Frankly, it's hard to find any other company which deserves the same "merit" MS has earned.
I couldn't be bothered to google "keyhole" (despite how much I love Google)
So Googling a topic suddenly makes one an expert? Obviously you're trolling or have your brains in a hat. I honestly answered. I don't know anything about it. Even if I had Googled it, it hardly changes the fact that I don't known enough about it to have an opinion. In other words, I'm honest and credible. Despite that fact, you're emotional, illogical, and trolling. Hmmm. Which position actually makes sense.
Treacherous platform is implemented in Vista with how only vendors who have paid Microsoft protection money will have their drivers allowed to install, unless you run Vista under Xen and do some other magic.
On the iPhone it is used to prevent any non-party-approved apps from running.
The first step is only requiring it for treacherous apps. Guess what happens down the road?
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
Wow.
I said nothing even close to what you're implying.
Yeah, you did.
You've obviously gone on an unprovoked rampage.
Rampage? You're the one with the illogical, poorly formed, grammatically shitty, emotional posts.
Thus far we have every indication Google is doing it right [no, we have good indication that they're doing it the same, and promising to fix it later] yet you still want to bash them for doing it right?!?![?!?!]
Unprovoked? You made a claim that Google was opening everything up. I provided proof to the contrary. You changed your tune and said that it was good of them to do that, and that it's a common practice. You later blamed this practice on MS.
They dropped them for several reasons. If you read the comments you'll find they dropped those APIs because the APIs were under developed and/or in flux and as such, do not belong in a production release. This is common for software development. They plan on adding things back in when they have time to refocus efforts to make things better.
In other words, their decision is about quality, not restricting freedom.
Yeah, let's read those comments, not the articles, which state that they just ran out of time and had some security concerns.
I stated that running out of time and removing features is always a bad sign.
You said:
They took out the components which were half-finished; thusly releasing a product which was finished.
So Vista was finished upon release? All the finished features were in, they gutted a bunch of unfinished features. They plan on adding some stuff later. Driver issues are the manufacturer's fault, etc.
You are presented with Google doing X which is similar to what MS has done, and what other companies have done. Google is doing it to maintain quality, you have faith in them, and you blame MS for them having to do it. When MS or other companies do it, it's because of their "poor standards", and it's "a distinct issue and has nothing to do with the topic at hand".
Pick one. You can't bitch about Google having to follow in MS' footsteps because of how MS ruined the industry (according to you) and then claim that Google's actions (in following said footsteps) are all well and good.
Even if you could logically support both, you can't point to it as a valid argument then dismiss the very comparison as "a distinct issue and has nothing to do with the topic at hand".
It is clear to me that you are more than willing to support Google based on "merit" and trash MS on the same "merit".
When Google makes a platform instead of a product, selling on brand alone and to manufacturers (not people), it's cool - they've:
innovated in a market which is already saturated and appear to have a foot in the door.
And of course now that Google is in the game:
pretty much all of the other phone platforms out there suck badly.
Let's not forget that Android:
will allow vendors to make better products which will help innovate the entire industry.
When Microsoft releases an actual product that hundreds of millions of people use, don't forget about those features that were cut:
MS does this to lock in would-be customers knowing full well they can't deliver.
And remember, MS has had a broad negative impact to the industry that no way could ever allow vendors to make better products which will help innovate the entire industry.
That's right folks! The list is never ending to be hyper-critical of MS, and MS has a world's worst reputation, again based solely on merit. Worlds WORST. Based on MERIT, not actual performance.
When we look at actual performance, we see that clearly, without Microsoft and Billy, the industry would have been so much better off. Who needs a standard platform used by hundreds of millions? Who needs an operating system with immense hardware and software support?
The industry would have
Rampage? You're the one with the illogical,
I've clearly spelled things out. You're all over the place and it's impossible to connect the dots. You're comparing apples to oranges and insist apples taste like oranges. That's illogical. Period.
poorly formed, grammatically shitty, emotional posts.
On the attack now. Further indication you know you're trolling and ramping up to flame. Nice.
Unprovoked?
Ya. Of course it's unprovoked. You're ramping things up for absolutely no reason. Well, okay....for the sake of trolling.
You made a claim that Google was opening everything up.
Which is a factual statement - where they are allowed to do so. For example, radio access can not be opened. That's a factual statement. Period.
I provided proof to the contrary.
Actually you didn't. What was your point? The only thing you provided is Google is actively working to improve the quality of their API. How does that turn into proof that they are restricting access? It doesn't. More illogical ranting.
You changed your tune
My position is completely unchanged from my original post. Period. Because of your illogical, emotionally charged rant, you're looking for straws. Nice straw man.
and said that it was good of them to do that, and that it's a common practice. You later blamed this practice on MS.
Once again, you completely misunderstand. This is a reality of business. There are few businesses where a product is created that this is not a reality. If you must get a product out the door and some portions are incomplete, you remove it from the product. This applies to both Vista and Google's Android. It's the same concept. I'm really not sure how that's confusing.
The part which seems to further confuse you, which has nothing to do with the above, is that MS established a practise of releasing buggy, alpha quality products. This is now the norm in the industry. This is fact. Period. There is no indication Google has done this with the API. In fact, they purposely did the above so as to NOT be party to MS' practises.
According to your illogical position, releasing a product automatically means the product is crappy and on par with MS'. That is of course, illogical.
Yeah, let's read those comments, not the articles, which state that they just ran out of time and had some security concerns.
Fine. You just validated my position and further invalided yours. Wow. Nice. You're a great debater.
So Vista was finished upon release?
Yes. That's what I originally said. Again, I've not changed my position. They did the same thing Google did here. They removed incomplete features to have a complete product. Of course, in doing so, exactly like Google, they have a less feature rich product. The difference is, again saying this for what, the third time ignoring this post, MS' product was very much of alpha quality. MS has openly admitted (covered here on /.) they released the product far too early and it had far too many bugs. Again, this is my original position. My position is factually supported and logical.
Your keyhole position is bluntly, stupid. It is not topical. At this point, the only purpose it serves is to validate how irrational you are and validates I'm rational, topical, and honest. So what's your point??
Drivers are up to the manufacturer. And while the finished features were in, they were also buggy and crash prone. Thusly, they released a sub-par product. Once again, you validate my entire point. If you want to debate this position, then you need to take it up directly with MS because their position is that you are clueless on the topic.
The rest of your illogical rant is ignored. If you have a point to make, state it. You obviously don't understand context. You are even taking my comments out of context. Clearly state what your issue is with Google. I asked you to enlighten me before. You obviously refused. Do you have a point other than trolling? If you can't directly answer this, then you're not worth the time.
In detail, explain why you have one iota of a logical argument. Explain what your point is.
Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
That does pretty well sum up your position. Nice trolling.
Not really, the separation of the company's assets from those of the owners is based on it being a separate legal person. Otherwise, it would be a partnership.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Durrrrrrrrr
All too funny. That's what I thought you'd have to say on the subject. LOL.
You would have saved us both lots of time if you had just simply said up front you have absolutely no idea what the heck you're talking about.
LOL. Too funny.
I'm done.
Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr