Microsoft Debuts Full-Body Controller-less Gaming At E3

quintin3265 writes "At today's Electronic Entertainment Expo press briefing, Microsoft unveiled Project Natal, a technology that eliminates the controller from gaming on the Xbox 360. In one demo, a player used her arms and legs to hit balls in an attempt to destroy a brick wall, and in another game, an employee threw virtual "paint" on a canvas to create a painting, even drawing an elephant using a silhouette feature. An accompanying video also demonstrated automatic login using facial recognition, videoconferencing with other Xbox Live members, and participating in a gameshow against another family through the Internet using speech recognition."

Comments

Activator

[Zero_DgZ]

Does anyone else remember the "Activator" controller for the Genesis/SNES? This sounds like an echo of that concept, but with updated technology that might actualy, you know... work.

Everything old is new again. Around and around we go...

Re:Activator

[bladx]

Ah ha ha... the "Activator"
The facial expressions of the guys in the video is almost equally as funny;

http://www.destructoid.com/sega-activator-the-crappiest-game-peripheral-26148.phtml

Re:Activator

[timeOday]

This sounds like an echo of that concept, but with updated technology that might actualy, you know... work.

The concept of "moving your body to make stuff happen" isn't novel, no. IMHO the value of the concept is beyond question, it's purely a matter of execution - i.e. whether it works. It would seemingly be extremely difficult to get the latency low enough. If the latency is low, even if the motion tracking is fairly crude, they should be able to use it to make a DDR "dance pad" (without the pad) that doesn't wear out and break. But heck, if it worked well enough, they could take all the electronics out of a normal gamepad and just watch your fingers instead. (I'm sure it doesn't have that level of acuity though).

Re:Activator

[bladx]

*are almost equally as funny

Re:Activator

[Jurily]

Everything old is new again. Around and around we go...

No kidding. "Full-Body Controller-less Gaming" has already been invented. It's called "sport".

Re:Activator

[Sycraft-fu]

"Everything old is new again."

Well it isn't a surprise. A lot of these concepts are things people have wanted forever. The problem was that the technology to make them work well was prohibitively expensive if even available. The Powerglove is a good example. It was a piece of shit, but there were and are high end controllers like that which work well. It just would have been $2000 to make.

So it is no surprise that with more advanced technology, there is a resurgence. Now that the shit actually works, people want to try it.

Re:Activator

[Skuld-Chan]

I dunno - the demo I saw - even if it was half as good its a major leap forward in motion control and capture.

Re:Activator

[duiu]

Everything old is new again. Around and around we go...

No kidding. "Full-Body Controller-less Gaming" has already been invented. It's called "sport".

Because I can get together with some friends and play a real game of Family Feud on the spot, without having to come up with categories and such first, just by going outside and getting a ball.

Re:Activator

[MooseMuffin]

From purely a tech perspective, it's pretty cool. The facial recognition to login and being able to control the dashboard by waving your hands was impressive. Ultimately though, much like the Wii, I don't think this will lead to many games that will interest me. Maybe even less so than the Wii, since the wiimote at least had buttons.

Re:Activator

[interkin3tic]

No kidding. "Full-Body Controller-less Gaming" has already been invented. It's called "sport".

Or, if you're into FPS, it's called "murderous office rampage."

Re:Activator

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

No kidding. "Full-Body Controller-less Gaming" has already been invented. It's called "sport".

Yeah, but the FPS games are declining in popularity.

Re:Activator

[nametaken]

Newfangled "Activator" doohickeys... bring back my U-Force. Then maybe my laserscope.

Oh right, then get off my lawn.

Re:Activator

[Hatta]

That game sucks.

Re:Activator

[ChromeAeonium]

Or, if you're into FPS, it's called "murderous office rampage."

Otherwise referred to as Monday.

Re:Activator

[SetupWeasel]

"Blue" ...
"Blue!" ...
"BLUE!" ...
"BLOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Voice recognition ain't that great. Better get practicing that Midwest accent. I have great doubts that you will get the in game Richard Karn to understand "Bar Harbor" as someone from Bar Harbor would actually say it. Of course that word would have to be in the system. It will be like a text adventure where only special words get recognized. Fun!

Re:Activator

[KDR_11k]

I really doubt it'll get used on FPSes, just doesn't look like it'd work for that. How would you even move? You can't just walk around, the game world is most likely larger than the area in front of your TV. All the tons of extra actions will also require pretty unnatural gestures to be recognizable (e.g. cycling through the weapons)

Re:Activator

[darthvader100]

Operation Office Freedom

Re:Activator

[Merls the Sneaky]

Usually played by muscle heads called "jocks", that people who peruse this site would be picked last for field positions such as "left right out".

Re:Activator

[MalusCaelestis]

The problem was that the technology to make them work well was prohibitively expensive if even available.

This was George Lucas' reasoning for creating the Star Wars Special Editions. Just because the technology is there doesn't mean we should use it.

(I kid, I kid. Natal looks awesome.)

Re:Activator

[Opportunist]

I do NOT want to be subjected to a controller-less FPS game, certainly not.

Although... you'd still have a controller, it's just a wee bit different.

Re:Activator

[Opportunist]

Or in ice hockey as goalie. Aka "target".

Re:Activator

[shutdown -p now]

No kidding. "Full-Body Controller-less Gaming" has already been invented. It's called "sport".

You must be that guy who wonders why treadmills were invented - after all, you can always just come run outside...

Re:Activator

[Foxing_Demon]

Or, if you're into FPS, it's called "murderous office rampage."

Otherwise referred to as Monday.

Looks like someone's got a case of the Monday's

Re:Activator

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also something that Sony have been working on for several years. I expect Sony to have something up and running sooner (having seen their existing motion intelligence in other products already).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_6mn3RVavE

Re:Activator

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of gestures, I wonder what the impact would be on the dating in GTA...

Re:Activator

[sharperguy]

All the tons of extra actions will also require pretty unnatural gestures to be recognizable (e.g. cycling through the weapons

Doesn't this include voice recognition as well (although we all know how well that works)?

Re:Activator

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, if you're into FPS, it's called "murderous office rampage."

Otherwise referred to as Monday.

Actually Tuesday is the prefered day for "murderous office rampage." No one has enough energy on Monday to make it fun.

Re:Activator

[Anonymous Coward]

It might work for a rail shooter. Walking around could be automated, but it would still let you duck behind cover and lean out. But I agree, it's not really the same thing.

Re:Activator

[dallase]

can you imagine tearing an ACL playing xbox...

Re:Activator

[DaVince21]

A lot of games require movement and then some special buttons, so surely there'd be some kind of solution for that? I imagine weapon switching could work like changing your arms into a different position like you're carrying a different weapon...

Re:Activator

[Ifandbut]

[Citation Needed]

Re:Activator

[AmaranthineNight]

I wanna shoot the whole day down...

Re:Activator

[jbarlow]

I imagine weapon switching working along the lines of the scrolling seen in the video. You use one hand to aim and shoot and the other for "swishing" through your weapons. Activating the sniper scope could be your arms-in-a-different-position scenario.

It's the movement I'm tripping over. Would you lean to strafe? Twist at the hip to turn? Simply nod your head to change view angle? Voice commands would be good too, for things that are trivial with mouse & keyboard but would be ridiculously difficult with full-body motion. "180!" "Rocket jump!"

Damn. Now I'm looking forward to a Natal FPS.

Interactive Dance!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the late 1990's we'd always go to experimental installations and do the "interactive dance" where we'd jump and wave our arms around and look ape-shit crazy.... so I'm just waiting for the youtube videos shot from the perspective of the X-Box aimed at the players who look, well, like rather foolish jumping around and leaning and such...

Re:Interactive Dance!

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, you mean the videos of people playing DDR. I think you can find them on youtube now if you search for DDR.

Re:Interactive Dance!

[arndawg]

Right, you mean the videos of people playing DDR. I think you can find them on youtube now if you search for DDR.

I only found a bunch of german people trying to climb a big fence. WTF?

too much work

[MooseTick]

This sounds good, but not the end all. The Wii controller can make things fun, but anyone who has used it much know how tiring it can be to have to stand or use full body motions for games for an extended period. Sometimes I just want to veg out on the couch and play a game. If I have to flail my arms all over the place I'm going to often consider it more work than fun.

Re:too much work

[Chabo]

Well, then when you feel lazy, feel free to look like a toolbox. ;)

Re:too much work

[TornCityVenz]

The idea you have to get up and move...and even get tired is actually a selling point, just look at the sells of the Eyetoy for play station...or even more to the point the Wii fit. There are a lot of gamers who could stand a bit more activity, and once you get past a certain point it's just embarrassing to go to a gym..at least some can get a bit of exercise in the privacy of their own home.

Re:too much work

[Chabo]

Back when DDR first came out, one of my friends from high school bought it, and started playing it for 30-60 minutes every day.

In about 4 months, he went from a 220-lb pudgy kid, to a 170-lb lean, muscular guy. It was hugely impressive!

Re:too much work

[bughunter]

While I agree with your sentiment entirely, I wonder if you know what that sounds like to someone athletic like my wife?

"Real sex can be fun, but anyone who has engaged in it much knows how tiring it can be to have to stand or use full body motions for an extended period to achieve orgasm. Sometimes I just want to lock myself in my office with my pr0n and rub one out. If I have to hump and thrust all over the place, I'm gonna often consider it more work than fun."

(Sorry. I enjoy pr0n as much as the next guy. And I've put in my time vegging on the couch with an NES... but it's the first thing I thought of.)

Re:too much work

[_Shorty-dammit]

Maybe it's a selling point for you, but not for me. If I want exercise I'll go exercise. When I feel like playing a video game, I don't feel like exercising. Or else I would go exercise. When I feel like playing a video game, I want to play a video game. If someone wants to play a racing game, what do you tell them? Stop being a pussy and go get in your car and drive real fast everywhere?

Re:too much work

[CarpetShark]

Back when DDR first came out, one of my friends...went from a 220-lb pudgy kid, to a 170-lb lean, muscular guy. It was hugely impressive!

Yeah, trying to make music on a RAM chip can do that to you. You should be a pal and buy him an ocarina.

Re:too much work

[Trouvist]

And I'm entirely certain if you had asked him to dance at Prom or Homecoming he would have started hopping up and down moving his legs back and forth to the pace of the song...

Re:too much work

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Dont worry, All 360's will still ship with the "veg out" controller... AKA 360 wireless controller

Re:too much work

[sponga]

Back on my old Nintendo mat we used to run miles on that thing doing the track meets and other olympic stuff.

Forgot the name of that game, but you gotta hand it to Nintendo for the stuff they put out from the mat to the duck hunter gun to the bazooka in SNES to Wii.

Re:too much work

[FunkSoulBrother]

For a guy with a wife, you should be more cognizent of the fact that it is indeed desireable (on occasion) to rub one to Teens in Tight Jeans 2.

Re:too much work

[quintin3265]

DDR is great. I played it all the time and never understood why it became unpopular. What does Guitar Hero have that DDR did not? Especially the "cool" factor - people get amazed when you jump around and pass a song on DDR, but playing a guitar just looks.. boring.

Re:too much work

[Anonymous Coward]

yes i ran miles on that mat as well. and boy were my hands tired from hitting the ground so fast!

Re:too much work

[Draek]

Lifting weights with one hand + playing Freecell or Peggle on the other > Wii Fit. Cheaper, too, and I can always change the game to something like Sudoku or even play a movie and *still* excercise.

Then again, considering I *have* had some sunshine during the past two weeks, I'm probably outside of the Wii Fit's market segment anyways.

Re:too much work

[Anonymous Coward]

Light-gun controllers are pretty standard fare, going all the way back to the original Odyssey. Though in pretty much every case, gets little third-party support. And if it does, the third-party company was probably the one that made it to begin with.

But that still leaves Nintendo testing the interface waters with:

• Microphones (built into the original Famicon Contoller,) I can't think of any by others until Seaman on the Dreamcast.
• Power Glove
• Power Pad, floor mats not seen again until DDR.
• ROB(? not really a controller I think?)
• directions in controller designs (SNES, N64, Wii)

Re:too much work

[sponga]

Yeah, I think I could jump a mile on that one where all you do is take your feet off the pad and jump back on 5 seconds later.

Re:too much work

[Toonol]

It's a selling point for me. Most forms of exercise are incredibly boring. If it can be combined with entertainment, it won't be such an inconvenience setting aside 30 minutes here and there to do it. Hell, if I'm on a streak, maybe I'll put in an hour. It's not that I hate exercise; it just takes time away from doing something interesting.

Re:too much work

[KDR_11k]

Not all games are Wii Sports, not all games are designed around full motions like that. Many are designed to be played sitting down since they're playable for very long periods of time. Wii Sports is designed for shorter games which means it won't tire you before the session is over (though it's still possible to end up with a muscle ache from Baseball...)

Re:too much work

[Merls the Sneaky]

Mod this man up, not everyone finds sports, other forms of exercise engaging. If its not engaging you pretty much go do something else.

Re:too much work

[Jedi Alec]

Lifting weights with one hand + playing Freecell or Peggle on the other > Wii Fit.

Now, I don't know about you but I generally like the muscles in my body to be somewhat...balanced.

Going through life as a skinny guy with a huuuuuuge left biceps, wonder what the ladies will think about that ;-)

Re:too much work

[thule]

The Wii-mote and nunchuk make a very natural control system for FPS games. What does MS solution have over the Wii?

1. Wii is shipping a real product. We all know how Microsoft is with demos.
2. There is a slight, but noticeable lag in the MS solution compared to the Wii's controllers. The Wii-mote is very responsive.
3. MS showed some unique games showing off the controller. Does anyone know how this control system will make platform or FPS games better? The Wii-mote does work with these types of games.
4. This product appears to be trying to leapfrog the Playstation Eye and not the Wii. The camera accessory is something that Sony has been playing with since the PS2.
5. Xbox fans don't get to make fun of the Wii controllers anymore. Thank you Microsoft!

Re:too much work

[Adam Jorgensen]

I don't spend much time flailing or standing while playing Wii games ( And I have quite a few of them...)

Re:too much work

[Draek]

First off, you can switch hands, it's not hard to use a mouse with your left hand if you don't require perfect accuracy. Freecell ain't an FPS y'know.

And secondly, most slashdotters already have well-developed right biceps due to other... err... forms of entertainment, so if anything it'd help balance things out.

Re:too much work

[icebraining]

Cheap exercise bike + PS pad + PC + MAME w/ Parodius = win. I can play for hours and I only realize I'm tired when I stop :P

Re:too much work

[Anonymous Coward]

That wouldn't have been out of place if they played "I'm so excited" for hours on end.

Re:too much work

[thousandinone]

Gay, of course... because sitting fat and dateless in Mom's basement is soooo masculine.

Re:too much work

[Anonymous Coward]

What's your point?

Re:too much work

[kthejoker]

How is it every kid in the universe knew that trick without the Internet?

Re:too much work

[elrous0]

It's a carriage house!

Re:too much work

[default luser]

But, just because you're athletic doesn't mean you're always working out and brimming-over with energy. I'm in excellent shape, but work is draining, so I still come home tired many nights. Sometimes I just want to veg-out.

On nights when I'm not tired I like to lift weights, and on the weekends I like to play Ultimate Frisbee (really good for cardio). And yes, don't forget sex - it really is a nice workout. But sometimes I come home, and all I want to do is just zone-out on the couch for an hour or two and recover from the workday. A good book or a game where I can sit still is more conductive to this than flailing-about with a Wiimote.

It's hardly surprising to me to note that my DS gets more use than the Wii, precisely for this reason.

Re:too much work

[geminidomino]

Amen.

90% of the year, the humidity and temperature are above 90 here. Screw going outside.

Exercise in the A/C, where my sweat is due to the exercise and not the fact that the daystar is only 15 feet overhead? Hell yeah...

Re:too much work

[Ihmhi]

The game was Track and Field.

Re:too much work

[omibus]

Better link for you: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/5/18/

Re:too much work

[amliebsch]

It's not a basement, it's a command center!

Re:too much work

[Hadlock]

Its amazing what the metabolism of a high schooler can do! 4 lbs of muscle in two weeks? No problem. Just wait till he hits 25...

Re:too much work

[Ifni]

Well, apparently there is a joystick option, of sorts...
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/6/5/

Oblig. PA

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/5/18/

Hi, Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this not the exact same thing as the PS2 had, in the Eyetoy?

Re:Hi, Sony!

[acrobg]

I remember playing with the PS2 eyetoy back in 2003 at SIGGRAPH in San Diego in the emerging technologies room. Not too sure why it didn't catch on too well; it was a lot of fun. Maybe Microsoft's version will fair better.

Re:Hi, Sony!

[Locke2005]

The eyetoy was just a USB camera, commonly known as a "webcam". I believe it relied on the CPU of the console to interpret the picture. It wasn't terribly accurate, and you had to maintain the correct distance to the camera and make sure you stayed in frame. And of course, it worked a lot better if there was high contrast between you and your background. That being said, the PS3 should have had plenty of horsepower to do something like this well. Intel was demonstrating game controllers like this 10 years ago. Camera control is fun for kids and console neophytes; it is just a question of writing good software to handle it. I'm surprised that this isn't available on newer consoles.

Re:Hi, Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

It will fair better because Microsoft is not stupid and knows how to sell something, at least compared to Sony that has some nice stuff that most people never heard about.
Killzone vs Halo for example, they're both at the same level, except that no one ever heard of Killzone. Halo had time to build a userbase sure, but you know people heard about it because they could even get halo figures at McDonalds. M$ has deep pockets but it also understands marketing.

Re:Hi, Sony!

[Narishma]

The PS3 has a more advanced version of the EyeToy called the Playstation Eye and it can do a lot of these things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTarqm4FCDY

Re:Hi, Sony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Except with Windows Vista... :)

Re:Hi, Sony!

[pwfffff]

FARE! It will FARE better! FARE as in FAREWELL.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fare#Verb

Sorry, had to stop the stupid before someone else caught it.

how?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know how it tracks your movement? I assume that it requires no special clothing, so what does it detect?

Re:how?

[Pinky's Brain]

Well, the rumour was that they were going to use 3DV's cameras. Which essentially measure depth for each pixel, making it much easier to determine pose.

Re:how?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft bought 3DV for this reason.

Full body power glove

[BigJClark]

The full body power glove. This one isn't doomed to failure. Not at all..

Re:Full body power glove

[Chabo]

It's so bad...

Re:Full body power glove

[Yvanhoe]

Not a power glove, still... I won't take anything "full body" from Microsoft. Ever.

Re:Full body power glove

[SetupWeasel]

The company that can't make a decent mouse thinks they can bust through all of the drawbacks of voice recognition, visual recognition, and gestures in a single bound?

This is going to be a lot like watching someone get kicked in the nuts: hilarious.

There's been a number of games like this.

[argent]

I've seen a number of games like this, including one that came with a webcam I bought a couple of years ago. It let you "play" drums displayed on the screen by whaling about with your hands.

Re:There's been a number of games like this.

[dangitman]

whaling about with your hands

By hunting large sea mammals with your hands? In your living room? That doesn't sound very plausible.

Re:There's been a number of games like this.

[argent]

You're right, it must have been a rigged demo, just like Microsoft's.

It's alright until..

[gilesjuk]

I'm sure it will work fine for some games, that is until someone walks behind you or moves around in the background to ruin your game.

Also, multiplayer will require a huge room and lots of sensors. But perhaps Microsoft expects people to play online, a console for people with no real friends.

Re:It's alright until..

[Leafheart]

But perhaps Microsoft expects people to play online, a console for people with no real friends.

That's one hell of a big market there. And always go for the biggest market.

Re:It's alright until..

[im_thatoneguy]

The camera has depth perception. So it happily will ignore anything behind you. Unless it's in your personal bubble.

Re:It's alright until..

[JaredOfEuropa]

But perhaps Microsoft expects people to play online, a console for people with no real friends.

The Wii aside, it seems consoles are already heading in this direction. I was rather disappointed at the number of decent head-to-head or co-op games using split screen on the newer consoles. Instead, many games seem to have gone the way of one-player-per-console, playing online.

Re:It's alright until..

[eebra82]

I'm sure it will work fine for some games, that is until someone walks behind you or moves around in the background to ruin your game. Also, multiplayer will require a huge room and lots of sensors. But perhaps Microsoft expects people to play online, a console for people with no real friends.

Why are you bashing a product you haven't tried yet? I'm sure they've spent a lot of time and effort to make this work in a good way, similar to what Nintendo did with the Wiimote.

I'll admit that I love my PlayStation 3 and I don't own an Xbox 360, but this is a very tempting product if it gets enough games to support it with.

Last but not least, I doubt that the controller will be so unintelligent that it cannot distinguish you from other people in the background in the same way that it can tell the difference in multiplayer, which it is told to support. That is, of course, unless someone jerks around right behind you and sabotages your game. But that's nothing you can blame MS for.

Re:It's alright until..

[dangitman]

The camera has depth perception.

I don't think the camera can actually perceive anything. It's just a passive electronic device.

Re:It's alright until..

[coppro]

[quote]I was rather disappointed at the number of decent head-to-head or co-op games using split screen on the newer consoles. Instead, many games seem to have gone the way of one-player-per-console, playing online.[/quote]Yes. Because when I go to a friend's house and we decide we want to play video games, I'll need to have brought a console, game, television, and all related accessories. Every bit of which my friend already has. Splitscreen is a good thing.

Re:It's alright until..

[not already in use]

Depending on how effective the facial recognition is (and subsequent skeleton mapping) it should be able to ignore others, and even recognize them if they are also playing.

Re:It's alright until..

[Anonymous Coward]

Care to cite your sources for that one? Cause I can't see that anywhere in the article, and I can't even begin to imagine how a camera using the standard one point of capture, without any other help could possibly pull down a 3-dimensional picture?

Re:It's alright until..

[arndawg]

http://www1.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2009/06/02/1243927283904_621.jpg Sure looks like two-eyeballs to me.

Re:It's alright until..

[Veggiesama]

I'm sure it will work fine for some games, that is until someone walks behind you or moves around in the background to ruin your game.

One word: "Moooommmm!!!"

I think the bigger announcement...

[Anonymous Coward]

...was that MS got Konami to make a 360 exclusive Metal Gear Solid franchise.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/988/988687p1.html

If /. is going to report anything about MS at E3 this was probably the biggest news at the conference.

Re:I think the bigger announcement...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's is not even the first time "MSG" has been used to cash in mediocre titles

Yeah - like Metal Gear Solid 4.

Re:I think the bigger announcement...

[Anonymous Coward]

Had no such dreams, will avoid the stupid Raiden action game just as I avoided the stupid Snake action game for PS3.

Re:I think the bigger announcement...

[grapeape]

geez how about a valium? Its a freakin toy...who cares. You talk about damage control but have been ranting like a jilted lover. Its a MGS game and its going to be on everything...so what?

Re:I think the bigger announcement...

[MediaStreams]

"who cares"

The gaming media and forums have been filled with desperate Xbox fans begging for a Metal Gear Solid game for two years now. Creating fake rumors, endless and inane speculation claiming proof.

Yeah, 'who cares'.

This was devastating news to Xbox fans who thought they would be getting a real Metal Gear game. Instead it's just a Devil May Cry action game with Raiden.

Re:I think the bigger announcement...

[wampus]

Devastating? Seriously? "Sorry, I can't come in this week, Metal Gear Solid on the XBox is going to be shitty. I'll try, thanks for understanding."

I guess I am not the target market for video games anymore, I just can't get that worked up.

Re:I think the bigger announcement...

[Rycross]

Seriously. How can people spend so much time writing about "crying fanboys" or "xbots" or whatnot? Its a fucking *toy*. If you use terms like "xbot" you've already lost any rationality or sense of perspective.

I hate accusations of shills, but this certainly smells like it (and Sony has been caught with their pants down on this). No real gamer I've met has ever been this devoted to their toys, and I know a lot of gamers.

Re:I think the bigger announcement...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because real gamers don't act like that - posers do. If they weren't waving their eCock around about %ConsoleOfChoice%, it would be something else equally retarded - cars, religion, local sports team, etc.

All consoles this gen have brought plenty to the table, all are enjoyable in their own way, and all have their drawbacks. Anyone who says otherwise is a fucking retard.

Seriously guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone's going to compare this to the EyeToy and whatnot but the fact is, if you dismiss this so easily you're either ignorant or a troll. The designers behind the EyeToy couldn't even dream of implementing motion sensitivity and depth perception like Microsoft has going here. It can track multiple people at one time (and ignore people who aren't in the game), track your body movement AND MAP IT TO A CHARACTER IN THE GAME, all kinds of freaky shit. To compare it to the EyeToy or to say it's not as advanced as the Wii is simply stupid.

Re:Seriously guys

[Kuukai]

The EyeToy/PlayStation Eye has had some pretty amazing demos too, although I think you're right to point out that depth perception is new. This is basically two EyeToys, plus some decent software taking advantage of that fact. I think the Achilles' heel of this kind of technology is the install base, though. The launch will be neat, but more developers aren't going to sign on unless it's wildly popular. You could do an awful lot more with the PlayStation Eye, too, but interest always wanes after E3. I'm not against Natal (except for the name), I hope it succeeds, but history doesn't seem to be on its side...

I gotta hand it to Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

They actually did pretty well this year. This Natal thing looks like it could one-up Nintendo.

marketed to whom?

[CheshireFerk-o]

this may have worked when the 360 first came out to compete wit wii, but as of now i dont really think the installed 360 userbase has any want for this. if they wanted motion control wouldnt they buy a wii? sure its a cool technology but i dont forsee the gamerscore whores actually getting up and doing motion control, too much effort. i have a wii and a pc for gaming, perhaps if m$ didnt charge to play games online i would have a 360, and i wouldnt be intrested in motion control.

Exercise?

[_Shorty-dammit]

If I wanted to exercise I wouldn't be playing video games.

Re:Exercise?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not? That's the whole point, mix them together... the fun of video games + exercise = perfect virtual experience

Re:Exercise?

[_Shorty-dammit]

You are wrong.

Re:Exercise?

[kaizokuace]

whats wrong with games that involve exercise? If you don't want to play them then don't, for those that have wanted such games to come, then the market is being served. Just because you aren't included in the target market for some exercise games doesn't mean all games will become exercise games. That's just silly.

Re:Exercise?

[_Shorty-dammit]

I suggest you read the post I was responding to, because evidently you did not read it. Dude said that video games + exercise = fun, period. Meaning that it could not possibly equal anything else. And that is wrong. Some people may find video games that combine exercise fun. That doesn't mean everybody will. It's nice how your point was actually mine, but you thought it was something else, heh.

Re:Exercise?

[kaizokuace]

my point was that everyone has different needs. Not all of one kind of game are fun and not all of one kind of game are not fun. Depends on the person. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk or something. I didn't mean to.

Finally they can make a slashdot oriented game

[Anonymous Coward]

Pelvic thrust supremacy!

Ultimate Jedi Knight Interface

[CarpetShark]

Spielberg is working with MS on this, but I think Lucas would be a better fit. I for one would LOVE a Jedi Knight-like game where you could run through forests and ruins and ships, actually running on a treadmill surface, jump using its programmed-resistance semi-trampoline qualities, jumping higher as your force powers increase and the surface resistance is lowered, etc.

But since it's just another tool of microsoft's monopoly, I'll have to wait 'til it becomes commoditised. No worries though, logitech will make a higher-quality version anyway, once the time is right for this to go mainstream. By then, it'll be the year of the linux HUD anyway.

Re:Ultimate Jedi Knight Interface

[Locke2005]

Sure, it would be fun... but the controller would also cost over $500 and take up half your living room. I'm not sure there is a big home market for devices like that. For arcades, the insurance and maintenance would be problematic. Hmm... a power-jump inside a planetarium-style dome with 8 RGB projectors would make a really fun game, but again -- $$$.

Re:Ultimate Jedi Knight Interface

[Anonymous Coward]

Spielberg is working with MS on this, but I think Lucas would be a better fit....

Yeah, how?

Small furry animals that can be marketed by the bazillions?

Some dumbass backwookds Jamaican salamander popping up all over the place?

Face it: Lucas got shit-lucky ONCE, and has milked it for all it's worth.

Re:Ultimate Jedi Knight Interface

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo had a contest years (maybe even decades) ago to come up with the next revolution in gaming and I'm pretty sure this was my exact idea.

Holy xbox-mote, Batman!

[Quiet_Desperation]

That sounds really amazingly, fantastically, wonderfully, beautifully horrible.

Not impressed... yet.

[Chris Pimlott]

Hmm...

In one demo, a player used her arms and legs to hit balls in an attempt to destroy a brick wall, and in another game, an employee threw virtual "paint" on a canvas to create a painting, even drawing an elephant using a silhouette feature.

Sounds great, but I'd be much more impressed if they had a live demo with random untrained people. Even in the demo video, you can see a noticeable input lag, particular when the guy does his "victory dance" at around 27 seconds.

The devil is in the details with these things, Microsoft is certainly not the first to try at something like this.

Re:Not impressed... yet.

[citizenr]

Its not an input lag, the demo is staged. You can see it in couple of places where actors didnt replay exact moves from the screen. Whole "demo" is a wishful thinking.

Re:Not impressed... yet.

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, that video was just a mockup of what they think it might do some day (or pretend...), the live demonstration did have visible lag though.

Re:Not impressed... yet.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm...

In one demo, a player used her arms and legs to hit balls in an attempt to destroy a brick wall, and in another game, an employee threw virtual "paint" on a canvas to create a painting, even drawing an elephant using a silhouette feature.

Sounds great, but I'd be much more impressed if they had a live demo with random untrained people.

Why? It seems obvious to me that it doesn't take any training. You can clearly see that it simply mimics what the person is doing - how can that take any difficulty to use properly? You know, most of the employees probably are random untrained people. Making it work with random people would not be any more impressive. Have you ever said that when evaluating a new computer game? "But what about the newbies?! how will they ever learn the controls! they're so retarded!" and it's much easier to learn how to move than to learn controls for a new game anyway.

Re:Not impressed... yet.

[elrous0]

Not just anyone can make an elephant that easily.

Full body?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does that make it a WiiWii controller?

Re:Full body?

[Anonymous Coward]

You, my friend, have never heard of duct tape.

What we need is....

[need4mospd]

What we really need is a gun that we could use to hunt ducks. I bet that would sell a lot more than this silly body controller....

Not A Real Metal Gear Game

[MediaStreams]

1. Kojima isn't directing the game

2. It's not a real Metal Gear game, just an action game with Raiden

3. It's multiplatform - PS3,PC, and Xbox 360

Even worse, just an hour after the Microsoft press conference an interview with Kojima quoted him essentially disowning the game.

 

Re:Not A Real Metal Gear Game

[The End Of Days]

OMG that means... nothing. Why are you getting so worked up about this? It's just another in a series of interactive(ish) movies that a lot of people like and even more don't care about in the least.

Re:Not A Real Metal Gear Game

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL!

The fanboys don't know whether to cry or pretend like they never cared in the first place!

Re:Not A Real Metal Gear Game

[Anonymous Coward]

Shhhhshh, don't spoil their moment. Let them believe it's a proper MGS game, despite MGS4 coming to about 40GB in total (6x 360 DVD's)..

Re:Not A Real Metal Gear Game

[not already in use]

1. Kojima isn't directing the movie

Fixed that for you. And I wouldn't consider that a bad thing, if you actually want a game you can play.

I hate this new trend in gaming

[jaxtherat]

Do not want!

Seriously, as someone who has been gaming for over 17 years, most of that on PC I don't want my games and their systems dumbed down so that someone's mom can maybe enjoy splattering paint against the wall. I *enjoy* my games being complex, having a learning curve, and not simply something where I flail my arms wildly and stuff happens. If this kind of crap is the future of gaming, say goodbye to serious adult gaming, as everything will be Nintendoo Fisher Price crap, and dumbed down and made cute to appeal to a bigger target market.

Get off my lawn!

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah humfuck, "core" games are never going to go away you goddamn idiot.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not an all or nothing scenario.
I don't know about you, but when I play games, I'm generally 3 meters away from the TV, and just like everyone else, I have a TV bigger than it has to be.

This means that a character meant to break the fourth wall will often be looking slightly off from where I'm sitting.

I agree that the demos they showed aren't really the stuff I'd want to play, but imagine the technology used to further the immersion of other great games.
I've no idea what the resolution of the camera is, nor how detailed, but let's imagine this used with BF1943 or another upcoming shooter.

Great; you've got the sniper rifle.
How do I zoom in again? Wouldn't squinting be so much easier?

That's just the first of many ideas that popped into my mind when I saw the demo.

Technology has never been about what the creator wants you to use it for, it's about what YOU can use it for.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[tuffy]

Sorry, but the "dumbed down" stuff has been dominating ever since Computer Space lost out to Pong. Even in the PC realm, more accessible titles like "the Sims" dominates the latest complicated, high learning curve title. But the hardcore titles are still around, so why worry?

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[EventHorizon_pc]

Agreed. We need to move away from games that have you faking seizures in front of your TV and back to games that actually produce real ones!

Promptly remove yourself from the grassy portion of my yard!

p.s. Wouldn't it be great if this replaced "goodbye" for old people in the future? Reminds me of the "smell ya later" episode of the Simpsons. "Smell ya later, Bart. Smell ya later, forever..."

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

More importantly, this dumbed down crap like movie tie-in games, Bratz, Petz, and so on cost little to develop and bring in tons of money, allowing big publishers to risk hardcore titles like Dead Space that might not turn a profit.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

You want adult gaming...?
This technology can provide adult gaming, and I'm certainly looking forward to it ;)

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[PaganRitual]

I agree with the sentiment about wanting complex games and dislike this tech, but I think you're being a bit dramatic.

This sort of gaming is - from my big gaming nerd point of view - pretty gimmicky, but there is a market for it, and it will be pursued. And you've gotta appreciate that and roll with it.

What does concern me is when developers, whether it be because someone had a brain fade, or because the people in control of the money see that this sort of thing is 'popular', decide that motion technology needs to be shoehorned into games for which it completely doesn't suit. And to date there hasn't been a platform for which this hasn't happened. Ninja Gaiden Sigma on PS3, the 'hardest of the hardcore' game, requires you to shake the controller to increase the strength of your magic attacks. Uncharted makes you balance the controller to navigate narrow log paths. The DS has plenty of games that push touch screen or motion controls where it's not required. The developers of Nanostray decided that while you're trying to control a ship in a shoot-em up, it would be a great idea to make you have to use the touch screen to change weapons, instead of one of the four free buttons that have no use in the game. Not even as an alternative option.

Speaking of which, the Wii is the worst one for this sort of thing, and not just because there are games for which there is no option for a standard control set (Excite Truck, I'm looking at you), but because it's inexplicably attracts games which would have otherwise been deemed as more approching the 'hardcore' edge of the gaming spectrum. And yes, I'm specifically talking Tastunoko vs Capcom. And Monster Hunter Tri. How these games came to be released for the Wii over the PS3 I'll never understand. Maybe that's a slightly off-topic point, but it's frustrating, as a gamer, to watch these games go to a platform that won't allow them to reach their full potential, whether it be with tech, or with player base.

The 360, for all it's faults, is the last bastion of guaranteed normal, non gimmicky gaming. And the concern now is not your over-the-top assessment that this is the death of complex games, because it's obviously not going to be, but that this sort of thing is pushed out to a standard controller, and that developers will decide that it's a good idea to force in stupid motion sensitive crap into games that otherwise don't need it. If the motion sensitive tech could stay completely separate to the normal, 'proper' games, then everyone would be happy. As it stands the only people with a chance of being put offside are the ... damnit, is there another word that can be used to describe the ... 'hardcore' style of gamer, other than hardcore*? I hate having to use the word, and having to describe games as 'normal', or 'proper', but there seems to be no way around it.

(someone is frantically clicking reply trying to be the first to quote me and reply with, 'loser'?)

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[pizzach]

I *enjoy* my games being complex, having a learning curve, and not simply something where I flail my arms wildly and stuff happens.

While a lot of people say this, I wonder what percent say it because they don't want to throw away the time invested into something complicated and start over again. When you get to the age that a lot of these hardcore people are at, if the jump button is somewhere else than usual, it's flat out wrong to them.

Through the years I have traditionally enjoyed the different Nintendo controllers for both their strengths and weaknesses. Developers using them creatively is part of the art-form and had helped keep things interesting. I also enjoyed playing Mario Kart upside-down to up the challenge. :-p Still haven't upgraded from my GameCube yet though.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, but I don't think it will end up like that.

This kind of thing is just the future of gaming for non-gamers. 'Real' games will still be complex, even if they are using the same technology. A lot of games for the Wii are as you described, but there are still 'real' games for the Wii.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Spit]

I agree, if I wanted to flap my arms around like a wounded turkey I'd buy a Wii. It's nice to have this as an optional extra for certain games, but you'll take my gamepad over my rotten corpse.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

And I hate needing a steep learning curve just to play a freakin' game. I prefer something like the Wii that I can play for 20 minutes and then get on with life.

Get off MY lawn!

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[HighFalutinCoder]

I'm not sure that post warrants a +5 Insightful...

1. games like this are not the future of gaming. They are part of the future of gaming.
2. If you don't want to play games like this, don't buy them. Buy the type of games you like to play.

Problem solved. A true +5 Insightful post wouldn't have needed that explanation.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

I could kind of excuse Excite Truck for doing as you say as it was among the first batch of games. If it offered a traditional control method using the direction pad, people would resort to that and the work in developing the Wii's motion controls would've been for naught.

The original Macintosh keyboard didn't have arrow keys, decision allegedly made to force people to use that newfangled mouse thing instead of resorting to familiar old methods.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[Blakey Rat]

Has it occurred to you that you could simply not buy it?

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[phantomfive]

I don't care if a system has gimmiky games, as long as there are enough good games around to keep me entertained.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[gwbennett]

loser

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[MasterOfMagic]

And yes, I'm specifically talking Tastunoko vs Capcom. And Monster Hunter Tri. How these games came to be released for the Wii over the PS3 I'll never understand.

Easy answer: size of market. There are 8.09 million Wii consoles sold in Japan. There have been 3.22 million PS3 consoles sold in Japan. So it's a no-brainer - you go with the market that's twice the size. If, by some chance, you can get some hardcore gamers turned on to the Wii and you can get some programmers with their head not located up their ass to use some good controls (and the Classic Controller/GameCube controller), you might actually help the Wii market.

It's also instructive to note that the arcade cabinet for Tatsunoko vs. Capcom is a Wii-based cabinet. Whether it was chosen that way because it's cheaper to develop for, made home porting easier, or because Nintendo execs and Capcom execs like to get drunk together is unknown.

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[geminidomino]

I could kind of excuse Excite Truck for doing as you say as it was among the first batch of games. If it offered a traditional control method using the direction pad, people would resort to that and the work in developing the Wii's motion controls would've been for naught.

So what's Twilight Princess' excuse then. *sourpuss* Assholes...

Re:I hate this new trend in gaming

[PaganRitual]

Easy answer: size of market.

This thread is dead and gone, but you really believe that the people the Wii is marketed at are really going to pick up TvsC or Monster Hunter, even on a whim? Although now that I've typed that out I realise that quite a western-centric view of the situation.

Note to self:

[Anonymous Coward]

If silhouette tool yields an elephant, it is time to lose some weight.

Re: Note to self:

[Anonymous Coward]

I LOLed big time from the parent AC.

Full Body???

[swanzilla]

How full is full-body? Like taint-full-body? That's just wrong.

Targeted at Wii Users

[BagOBones]

Other than figuring out how much you weigh this ONE accessory seems to be able to handle the functions of the WiiMote, Nunchuck, BalanceBoard and Motion Plus, without you having to purchase 4 of each and all the batteries to run them.
O and it ads a camera with mic / voice support. You can get a mic for the Wii now as well but I think animal crossing is the only game that supports it so far.

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[sancho_pancho]

The only Wii function that it won't be able to copy is the ridiculous number of people that own it.

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[Renaissance 2K]

Just so everyone's on the same page, only the WiiMote and the Balance Board require batteries, and they're included in the package.

Sure, you have to replace them eventually, but that's what Eneloops are for.

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you being serious here? The Wiimote and Motion Plus? Tell me how you could possibly ever play something like Metroid Prime: Corruption on something like this, in which subtle hand movements on the order of millimeters are measured real-time with pretty incredible accuracy from 3 meters away. I 100% guarantee that this device is not capable of coming anywhere even close to that. What are you going to do, shape your hand into a pointer and speak the buttons you want to press while controlling movement on a virtual joystick in your left hand? Give me a break dude, even in their staged, fake demo video the lag looks shockingly significant and is clearly nowhere near the accuracy of a Wiimote even without the Motion Plus. I feel like either you were smoking something when you watched that, or you've never actually played a game that made good use of the Wiimote. Either way, I think you should watch the video again; this is a full body Eye Toy, not a controller-replacing input revolution.

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[BagOBones]

Eventually? Using the same brand of batteries I was burning through them in the wiimote twice as fast as the ones in my xbox controllers.

I purchased two different kinds of rechargeable batteries for my wii motes and the performance of those was even worse.

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[BagOBones]

True, Nintendo is rolling in the dough because they make money on the Wii it self. The wii has the lowest attach rate of the three current consoles so most 3rd parties are suffering and not willing to invest in it.

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing that the nunchuck and wiimote have that this doesn't: Buttons. I think that's a very significant difference. I can't see playing anything more complex than those demos without some buttons to push.

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[iVasto]

I don't understand how the microhone operates. They show the device located directly in front of the tv, a spot where many people place their center speaker in a 5.1 set up. The game will have to completely mute the center channel in order for the microphone to work, thus making the game 2.1 (or 2.1 x2).

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[walshy007]

using non rechargable batteries I get between 20-25 hours of play time on a wiimote, rechargables only about 8 hours but they are rechargable so meh. Is that really so bad?

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[ammit]

Yes but it's built by Microsoft!!!

Re:Targeted at Wii Users

[scot4875]

I've seen numbers that vary pretty wildly concerning attach rates, but here's a recent article with some specific numbers that I'll use to debunk your claim.

The article claims 4 games sold per Wii/PS3, and 5 games sold per 360.

The Wii install base is currently at roughly 50 million. With 4 games per Wii, that's 200 million games sold.

The 360 install base is currently at 30.5 million. That's 152.5 million games sold. So in terms of sold units, the Wii has a 30% greater market share than the 360, despite the 360's 20% greater attach rate.

In fact, for the 360 to simply break even with the Wii's software sales, it needs an attach rate almost 70% higher than the Wii's.

So your argument that 3rd parties not being willing to invest in it doesn't hold water. There's a larger install base and more software sales for the Wii. Just take a look at the Wii software aisle vs. the PS3 and 360 aisle -- there's almost as much 3rd party garbage on the Wii as there was on the PS2. (Why is "shovelware" such a scandal on the Wii all of a sudden? I don't seem to remember anyone complaining about it very loudly during the previous generation when it all went to the PS2.)

Basically any way you look at it, there's no justification to not develop for the Wii. If you can't put together a good game on modest hardware, you probably can't put together a good game on advanced hardware either -- but it'll definitely be easier to distract people with higher resolution and polygon counts. (Also, I'd argue that any hardware that doesn't come with wireless everything standard is way behind the times. I'm referring, of course, to the mess of wires to get everyone hooked up to play the original Rock Band on my 360.)

--Jeremy

Be prepared for lawsuits

[CrazyJim1]

I did the math on this. Even if you make a full body suit capture or camera object recognition of the body it doesn't matter. Once you throw on the VR goggles, people may get into the game too much. People get hurt with the wii just moving their arms. Imagine the carnage of people jumping around with their eyes covered!

Project Natal???

[Locke2005]

Presumably this was the successor to "Project Fetal"?

Not the best example

[Bill_Royle]

Unit sales don't automatically equal usability.

I'd agree with that statement if not for the fact that I've got a Wii Fit board sitting in the garage gathering dust. It was fun for a week or so, but it didn't endure as an enjoyable thing to do.

Perhaps if I was overweight I would be more motivated to use it, but it became more of a chore than fun. That's not a good indictment of a game console / hardware accessory.

Re:Not the best example

[KDR_11k]

It's exercise, not entertainment. Of course it's not a lot of fun when you do the exercises. There are quite a few games that allow optional balance board controls though.

Re:Not the best example

[Bill_Royle]

I agree with you that it's exercise - but the focus of the story is a gaming console. And that console is focused on entertainment.

There are games that involve exercise that can be fun, yes. But they're not ones that I'm going to come back to as often. After all, does playing what are essentially Marble Madness-type games win out over possible game of Mario Kart, Splinter Cell, or Gran Turismo (to name a couple)?

Not usually.

Microsoft's taste of names

[microbee]

So after Bing, there is Natal. I wonder how it's going to be translated into Chinese (hint: it sounds like a part of a female body).

Porn?

[freedom_india]

Forget carnage and hurt.
Iam thinking about Porn.
Imagine people playing Porn with Alba or Simpson in VR and in their excitement let their goo fly around!
Hallelujah!!!

Bye Bye PS3 and Wii

[Anonymous Coward]

That does it. Microsoft just won the console wars.

!demo

[nog_lorp]

I don't know about you guys, but that looks strongly like a product of the marketing department, not a "set up the box and get a camera" style demo. Complete with cheesy clapping and cheering from the people on the couch.

Re:!demo

[lumpenprole]

Nah. I've played this game. I'm working on this project (thank god I can talk about it) and that's fairly accurate. They're improving the tracking on this thing on a weekly basis and it's pretty playable now. I'm not sure whether this is going to set the world on fire or not, but what you saw being played on stage is the real deal.

Swordfighting.

[CannonballHead]

I've waited for years for a decent swordfighting game. That doesn't have to use a keyboard or controller that's obviously not suited for actually controlling the sword movements themselves. It would be awesome to be able to simply move your arm like you would a sword... or better yet, put a sword* in your hand and use that.

* Not sharp, of course. Think of the children.

Re:Swordfighting.

[Tetsujin]

I've waited for years for a decent swordfighting game. That doesn't have to use a keyboard or controller that's obviously not suited for actually controlling the sword movements themselves.

Here's the thing about that...

You can sort of get that now on the Wii (we finally got our lightsaber game...), but - because of limitations in the Wii remote, it's not good at picking up subtle movements - and it can't really read position at all unless the camera in the remote can see the beacons - and even then it still needs a decent reading from the accelerometer to get its orientation in order to know whether it's upside-down and pointed above the screen, or right-side-up and pointed at it... So the accuracy necessarily drops while the remote is moving... This seriously limits the extent to which the game can simply mirror your movements as a viable means of game control.

Now, with a better sensor system, you have another problem - it's still just a game, the players don't really know how to sword-fight. That means the full range of motions one might pursue are simplified down to a few recognized gestures which are used to activate common and useful commands. When you factor in the limitations in the input technology, plus the fact that players aren't getting any kind of force feedback, it's hard to imagine a game based on a more direct mapping of input to action being successful...

Re:Swordfighting.

[Garrett Fox]

Now, with a better sensor system, you have another problem - it's still just a game, the players don't really know how to sword-fight.

I thought that increased realism was part of the point, though. I'd be interested in a swordfighting game that required learning something resembling a real-world skill, so that I'm prepared to... uh, battle skeleton warriors. More seriously, it seems like there's new gameplay to be found if I have to actually try different parries and attacks instead of just hitting Attack, or even High/Low Attack like in a Street Fighter game. If people don't really want anything resembling a realistic experience, why bother with a Wiimote-style controller at all instead of an old-fashioned controller? I guess the test of this reasoning is, would there be a market for a Guitar Hero imitator where the skills carry over somewhat to actual guitar, instead of being basically Simon with music?

Re:Swordfighting.

[RedWizzard]

Now, with a better sensor system, you have another problem - it's still just a game, the players don't really know how to sword-fight.

I thought that increased realism was part of the point, though. I'd be interested in a swordfighting game that required learning something resembling a real-world skill, so that I'm prepared to... uh, battle skeleton warriors.

What people want is the illusion of doing something they can't do. Guitar Hero is popular because it feels like you're playing a guitar even though the skills aren't really anything like what a real guitar requires. Increased realism doesn't have much to do with it - presumably if people really wanted to play guitar they'd go to a music teacher, if they really wanted to learn how to handle a sword they'd take up fencing or whatever.

Sword-fighting is always going to be unrealistic in a game because there is no resistance in the "target". How can you be parried? It doesn't matter how good the controller is, it's just not going to be a realistic experience.

I guess the test of this reasoning is, would there be a market for a Guitar Hero imitator where the skills carry over somewhat to actual guitar, instead of being basically Simon with music?

That game already exists: Guitar Rising. since you obviously haven't heard of it I think we can assume that there is in fact not much of a market for it.

Re:Swordfighting.

[Hatta]

I've waited for years for a decent swordfighting game.

You fight like a dairy farmer!

Re:Swordfighting.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you tried Determinance? - http://www.mode7games.com/

Re:Swordfighting.

[91degrees]

There's Eyetyo Hero for the PS2 eyetoy. Not actually seen it in the shops though.

Re:Swordfighting.

[ThePhilips]

Sword-fighting is always going to be unrealistic in a game because there is no resistance in the "target". How can you be parried? It doesn't matter how good the controller is, it's just not going to be a realistic experience.

Force feedback might actually compensate for that. At least to make up the feel of sword's weight and shock of parried strike.

And yet It wouldn't be too realistic. And it doesn't have to be. It has to allow player to submerse into game's world better. And frankly everything they might come up with would be better than "classical" controller.

Re:Swordfighting.

[SetupWeasel]

Force feedback is great, but you would need a machine the size of a small room to give you force feedback for motions like waving a sword at someone. This isn't Gran Turismo where a couple of motors in a steering wheel will make it feel like the wheel is pushing back. If you actually mean rumble, then yes you will feel a signal, but is that really any better than the visual and audio cues you get on screen. You still cut air, and that is the problem.

I'm not the biggest fan of motion sensing in games, because you have no point of reference. Intuitive is hitting a ball. Not intuitive is swinging at nothing where you think the ball should be. You're never quite sure where the game has placed it in relation to you. If very simple, think Punch-Out!! and Wii Sports, motion control can work OK. But with anything more complex, think Uber Tricks in SSX Blur (not the actual skiing though, that was a great use of motion controls), you find that the controls feel loose. That is not something that can be solved on the developer end. It is a flaw in the concept.

Re:Swordfighting.

[Tetsujin]

Now, with a better sensor system, you have another problem - it's still just a game, the players don't really know how to sword-fight.

I thought that increased realism was part of the point, though.

In PC gaming, around 15 years ago, maybe... Back then you'd have games like Mechwarrior or X-Wing - not true simulators but they incorporated simulator-like elements - plus all the real flight simulators and so on.

That facet of gaming hasn't entirely gone away - there's still flight sims to be had, and there's the occasional console game like Steel Battalion which will be unafraid to present the user with an elaborate control system... But mostly these days game designers prefer simplicity - a game people can learn to play with relative ease, as opposed to something they'll be able to handle only after extensive study and practice.

The point of the current round of motion-based games, for the most part, isn't to provide increased realism at all - but rather to provide an experience gamers can more easily relate to. Instead of remembering a button layout and pressing a button to do an action, you might use motion control to do something vaguely analogous to what you're trying to do in-game - or you might point at something on-screen and press a button... Unfortunately one of the big problems with this on the Wii, IMO, is that it replaces gaming challenges with control challenges. Wii Sports Golf is a good example - when putting for instance - the gaming challenge is to put enough force on the ball, but not too much, and aim it in the right direction... The controller challenge is to get the software to recognize the "putt" gesture without swinging the remote so hard that you overshoot the target. The gaming challenge is pretty simple - mostly you're just fighting the recognition software.

Getting the kind of input you'd need to simply map player actions onto game characters is still a bit of a problem. And additionally, remember the gamer's still using a 2-D display, so even if they could play an accurate sword-fighting game they wouldn't necessarily be able to pick up on the kind of detail in opponent movement that would make that extra level of control worthwhile. The basis of games like Street Fighter is that it presents the fight and the arena in easy-to-process format: without the various special attacks, for instance, the whole fight would be close-quarters hitting, blocking, and throwing. That's not an especially player-friendly challenge - but if you spread the fight out in space and time, give people room to maneuver and attacks that are effective at range in certain situations, the intransitive relations that form the basis of the game become a lot easier for the players to interact with.

(As a side note - did you know that the early Street Fighter machines had a more immersive interface? Instead of six attack buttons, there were two big ones - and you could get the three different levels of force out of the punch or kick by hitting the buttons harder... I guess they decided it wasn't such a hot idea, though, encouraging players to direct more physical force at their machines...)

Re:Swordfighting.

[Anonymous Coward]

You should go check out the demo for Wii Sports Resort on youtube. With the new Wii motion plus add-on adds a second gyro, it does a full 1 to 1 position of the Wii mote and makes it so that you can actually sword fight. They just have a little kendo ring in the demo, but with this new functionality, you there are going to be a few kick ass sword fighting games in the next year.

WTB Star Wars game with motion plus support.

Re:Swordfighting.

[Reapy]

Taking this a step farther, with this kind of control you could take a wii fit game to a whole new level. Why learn just sword fighting? Why not learn yoga, thai chi, kendo, karate or any kind of martial arts? Imagine the awesome feedback the game could give you while going through the motions in the living room in terms of getting your body in the right position.

Besides that, I think that the game could do a lot of cool little gimmicky things that would be fun to play. Think of having a football throwing game where you can toss it down field for people to catch. Or some sort of wrestling game where you can do little gestures and basically beat the crap out of someone. Imagine you having your hands over your head IRL and in game you are holding up some 375lb dude and you throw your arms down and body slam him. Or doing a 'throwing' gesture to get the guy moving and then clothslining him on his way back. Done right, that could be pretty awesome.

Finally, I could see this as a really great hybrid controller. If you sit and play with your traditional controller, but at points in the game you stick an arm up and make a 'mouse' gesture to cast a spell. Sort of like black and white, except not sucking. An rpg / spell casting game could be really immerse if you add in elements like this.

Heck, even a mirrors edge style game, where you jump long distance, then you use your actual arms to position the character's arms to hook on to a building ledge or something. Shrug, it has potential, a lot more then the wii mote will let you get away with (if the tech demo is accurate).

But yeah, jumping around the living room kicking and flailing at stuff is just a bad, bad idea for a game. Even their painting thing is pretty lame. But the idea of being able to use your limbs to accurately move a character around has lots of potential.

Re:Swordfighting.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be interested in a swordfighting game that required learning something resembling a real-world skill, so that I'm prepared to... uh, battle skeleton warriors.

Pfft. You fool! Everyone knows that BLUNT weapons are much more effective against skeleton warriors!

Re:Swordfighting.

[SwordsmanLuke]

As a swordsman IRL, I'd also love a halfway decent swordfighting game. I'm cautiously excited about Ubisoft's Red Steel 2. It's going to *require* the Wii Motion Plus addon and preliminary reports seem promising.

The Island

[Lanforod]

So perhaps sometime soon we'll see a Xbox game similar to the one showcased in "The Island" where Jordan Two Delta kicked Lincoln Six Echo's ass in a hand to hand combat virtual game? I would love to see that!

I can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a fighting game with this tech, you and your friends can get together and duke it out in the living room.

Re:I can't wait...

[f1r3f0g]

And being a Microsoft product, it should include chair throwing.

Will not beat Commodores finest ...

[yossarianuk]

Surely will not be as fun as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyboard
The concept sounds fun - for about 10 minutes...

Video leaked on Youtube

[Dr.Altaica]

Check out this cool video of it in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFAdmWwg374

Will it be standard?

[SoftwareArtist]

There's a long history of innovative, unconventional game controllers. Most of them are nothing more than interesting historical footnotes. Few people bought them and few games used them.

What makes the Wiimote different is that it's the standard controller for the console. It comes bundled with every single console sold. That's why game developers actually use it: they aren't restricting their market.

If Microsoft decides to bundle this thing with every Xbox sold, then it's a big deal. If it's an optional accessory that you have to buy separately, then it's another historical footnote.

Re:Will it be standard?

[RazorSharp]

Nintendo bundled the light gun with the NES but, despite years of relevancy, it never became as ubiquitous as the Wii, 360, or PS3's standard controllers. Needless to say, lightguns did better in the arcade than the living room. Bundling this glorified EyeToy with every 360 may increase developer support, but will people actually use it? These systems aren't new, by now people who want that type of gameplay own a Wii and those who prefer more traditional video games own a 360 or PS3. I think MS is wasting developers by having them work on something which may be somewhat popular rather than something extremely popular with their base (Lionhead. . ). Kinda like Sony and the PSP. I'm no fan of Microsoft, so I think their vain attempt to take a piece of Nintendo's market is great.

Brilliant!

[Trogre]

This innovative product could revolutionise gaming. Congratulations Microsoft, you've done it again!

(goes back to playing with Eyetoy)

Re:Brilliant!

[ThePhilips]

This innovative product could revolutionise gaming. Congratulations Microsoft, you've done it again!

LOL. Seeing how much of acceptance WiiMote is getting in industry, I'd say that MS with much more radical approach would have even more problems. Though to give them the ill deserved credit, unlike Nintendo, MS has lots of experience forcing something onto markets.

Look out "core" gamers, I bet you never seen that coming!

(goes back to playing with Eyetoy)

You'll pry my mouse+wasd from my cold dead finger!

Methinks, Wii bits a Wii bit late. -nt

[lordsid]

nt

Please, $deity, don't let Ballmer demo this

[dangitman]

I really, really, really hope that a sweaty Steve Ballmer won't be the one demonstrating this technology on stage.

Important Question!!

[clayman1982]

Has Wii F#$k been released yet?

Adult games?

[josephcmiller2]

Wonder how long it will be before someone develops sexual games for a device like this.

Re:Adult games?

[SolitaryMan]

Been waiting for this for a long long time.

However I'll be more interested in a sexual controller for normal games. Like, for example, using girl's boobs to move Mario left or right -- now, that would be awesome!

Re:Adult games?

[RichM]

That's probably one of the biggest markets for this.
A game similar in concept to those Virtual Sex DVDs would sell very well.

Winston Smith not approved!

[Sporkinum]

I bet they implement it in the UK first...
"Big Brother: Remain EXACTLY where you are! Make NO move until you are ordered!
[painting falls from wall, revealing a telescreen]
Julia: Now they can see us...
Big Brother: NOW WE CAN SEE YOU! Clasp your hands behind your heads! Stand out in the middle of the room! Stand back to back. Do NOT touch one another!
Winston Smith: [hearing the helicopters approach] The house is surrounded...
Big Brother: THE HOUSE IS SURROUNDED!
Julia: Suppose we may as well say goodbye...
Big Brother: YOU MAY AS WELL SAY GOODBYE! While we're on the subject, here comes a candle to light you to bed, here comes a chopper to chop off your head! "

Webcam games

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen a number of games like this, including one that came with a webcam I bought a couple of years ago. It let you "play" drums displayed on the screen by whaling about with your hands.

Wow, totally forgot that years ago my first Logitech webcam came with some balloon popping and juggling games.

It's called Bing

[chord.wav]

Microsoft Debuts Full-Body Controller-less Gaming At E3

Yes it's called Bing and you can play with your own meat joystick:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/5423736/Microsofts-Bing-under-fire-for-porn-video-access.html

Re:It's called Bing

[mgblst]

It is BING: Because It's Not Google.

Isn't this called...

[Talgrath]

...the Eyetoy? Remember the Eyetoy? A little camera-based system that let you use body movements to do things? How well did that sell? Oh yeah...huh.

Re:Isn't this called...

[91degrees]

How well did that sell? Oh yeah...huh.

10.5 million units. 7.7% of the total available market is not too bad really.

Reality check......

[AnAdventurer]

Fantasy ends where reality begins, eh? It's a but less invasive then Gibson's "jacking in" by plunging something into our heads. But hey, Neromancer is still really cool!

No more accessories...

[Anonymous Coward]

it seems counter intuitive from a business stand point to eliminate controllers... no more dinging you for multi-player, but they probably wouldn't have to worry about that unless it actually completely replaces controllers for all games.

Breakout is a stupid game

[Fry-kun]

"a player used her arms and legs to hit balls in an attempt to destroy a brick wall"

http://xkcd.com/347/

So does this mean?

[Anonymous Coward]

That Uncle Steve can now throw virtual chairs?

Major Breakthrough

[theolein]

While I take a lot of what Microsoft says with a pinch of salt, this technology, if it works well, would be a massive breakthrough in computing, not only in gaming. For one, it would remove the need for a mouse, and possibly a keyboard and an intelligent UI could understand gestures in productivity apps. It would be very interesting, although Logitech might be pissed.

Re:Major Breakthrough

[icebraining]

Yes, 'cause waving your arm around is much easier than moving a mouse a few inches :|

Arm and hand position recognition seems perfect for some uses, but *not* for most people who spend 8 hours/day in front of a PC, or for most current PC games.

Just IP

[relliker]

The technology is still not there. In the vid I saw there were multiple players doing a myriad of stuff like unscrewing a racing car wheel and replacing it and another person (i.e. multiplayer) driving the car into and out of pit stops and changing gears just by hand motions, sophisticated martial arts movements, skateboarding skills etc.
What Microsoft actually demoed was someone throwing virtual paint and somebody kicking a ball. Not quite the same thing IMO. Why did they not demo the games I saw in the video? Repeat: The technology is till not there. This is just an excuse for Microsoft to patent something someone else will actually produce in future so it can become an IP/Patent troll and earn money from licensing to others when it stops making money from its doomed OS and office suite (amongst others). In other words, we will sweat our asses off being controllers while Microsoft will become the couch-potato, laugh at us and earn money doing nothing but suing people not paying for its IP.

P.S. Of course, if I'm wrong, I'll eat my hat and by an Xbox. I have dreamed of being able to do martial arts with a virtual opponent for a long time. Beats practicing in front of a mirror ;)

EyeToy for the Xbox

[Anonymous Coward]

At last, an EyeToy clone for the Xbox!

Fabulous...

[ammit]

Yet another nod towards cheaply made mass produced peripherals that make you look like a twat and make life an indoor activity instead of oh I dunno....playing sport in real life. If I get forced into abandoning consoles because of this then so be it.

New Rockband

[Anonymous Coward]

This will be great for playing Rockband: David Lee Roth Edition.

Psht. Another MS rip off of Apple

[AP31R0N]

Apple already did this, and did it better. Or was it Red Hat?

Missing sensor?????

[motherpusbucket]

In one demo, a player used her arms and legs to hit balls in an attempt to destroy a brick wall

Where does the sensor mount on your balls to detect a hit and who volunteered to be her opponent? Or was she a tranny?

Shotgun

[Aqualung812]

They show the device located directly in front of the tv, a spot where many people place their center speaker in a 5.1 set up.

Use a Shotgun Microphone. Center channel goes above or below TV screen, camera goes on the other end. Problem solved.

How the camera works

[Stuntmonkey]

The 3DV site has a number of papers showing how the underlying technology works. They've spent the last several years refining it to make it smaller/cheaper, but the physical principles are the same: In addition to a regular video camera to capture RGB, a pulsed infrared source illuminates the entire scene. A fast shutter on the camera then allows it to infer distance to each pixel, based on the time-of-flight of the reflected infrared pulse. The literature for an earlier version claims 1-2 cm depth resolution at full video rates, but I haven't seen specs for the latest small/compact/cheap version.

Using this as a game controller strikes me as potentially very interesting, but with caveats. First I think this would be hard to program: You get all of this per-pixel RGB/depth information out of the camera, from which you need to extract limb orientations, etc. Seems pretty hard to do well, although I suppose a library would abstract that away from the game developer. A more fundamental limitation is the low spatial resolution: Basically it just detects gross movements of the limbs, and by itself could only support a few types of games. I think this would be most useful in combination with a controller for faster/finer motions (e.g., a button-based interface). Maybe that's where the future is headed: Overall body tracking at low resolution, selected "high-sensitivity" parts (hands, eyes) tracked at high resolution.

Another potentially interesting next-generation game controller is the Sixense 6dof controller. It is basically a magnetic tracker (full absolute position/orientation sensing) combined with a button-based interface. I could see a lot of interesting games working well on that. At any rate, what's cool about the success of the Wii is that people are innovating here, and the console makers now seem willing to spend a nontrivial part of their overall COGS on controllers.

Let me get this straight

[straponego]

Hold on a minute, hoss.

Micrsosoft wants to put a cluster of always-on cameras in my home? With facial recognition? And a microphone? Connected to the Internet and MS headquarters by a high speed link?

Microsoft, the company with the security standards of Animal House, the restraint and ethics of a Cthulhu god?

*ponders*

Will there be chicks?

Anyone else spit their coffee out at the "Pose"?

[Ch*mp]

Looked like someone was inserting a cushion into her

Left 4 Dead

[Samah]

I can just imagine playing Left 4 Dead with this system. No more right click, but your arms sure would get sore.
Getting thrown on the ground every time some retard shoots you in the back in expert mode would suck somewhat too.

Show Me More First

[SoVi3t]

I am excited to see a product like this, however I am still skeptical to its ability to be all it says it can be. How will the game handle actual 3D motion? Can I play Halo 4 on this, and actually walk around? I noticed all the games demo'd allowed for virtually no movement except for your limbs. The other thing I noticed during the Lionhead demo of Milo, was that the arm movements seemed to be sluggish. How slow do you have to move your arms in certain games? Without a doubt, the implications of a game like this astound me (sword fighting games, sports games, racing games, street fighting games, just to name a few). The other thing I wonder is, will the skill of the other gamer come into question? If I play Fight Night Round 5 in the future, will an actual boxer annihilate me?