Slashdot Mirror


Eye In the Sky For City Crime Fighting

Tiger4 writes "The mayor of the City of Lancaster in the Antelope Valley of southern California is considering a high-definition video flying platform to aid in crime fighting. The aircraft, would circle the city constantly, able to zoom in on activity spots instantly. 'You never know when you are being watched or followed. It would be stupid to commit a crime. You see it with such detail,' said Mayor R. Rex Parris, who took a ride last week in a camera-equipped airplane with pilot Dick Rutan. 'I have every hope that Lancaster will be the first city to deploy it. I've never been so excited about anything.' Dick Rutan is the same pilot who flew around the world non-stop in the Voyager, custom built by his brother Burt Rutan at Scaled Composites in Mojave." The aircraft is nothing special, a garden-variety Cessna or the like, but "the camera is an example of technology developed for and used by the military making a transition to civilian applications, Rutan said."

389 comments

  1. Next step by redcaboodle · · Score: 5, Funny

    Outlaw roofs.

    --
    -- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
    1. Re:Next step by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Why, with the right type of camera, you can see right through them.

      Btw, could someone tag the story "bluethunder"? I can't seem to add tags.

    2. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Exactly. Like the stupid laws pertaining to tinted windows in cars.

    3. Re:Next step by N3Roaster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The new fashion accessory that every criminal thug just has to have: an umbrella.

      --
      Remember RFC 873!
    4. Re:Next step by furby076 · · Score: 1

      This is nothing new. Police helicopters + cameras have been around for decades. THis guy is excited because instead of analog (vhs) tapes which are grainy and don't do well when trying to enlarge a picture they are not using digital technology which is easier to mainpulate.

      Privacy concerns from eyes in the sky were settled decades ago.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    5. Re:Next step by siloko · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Well Blue Thunder was an ostensibly civilian undertaking which sort of suggests you agree with the quoted sentiment:

      The camera is an example of technology developed for and used by the military making a transition to civilian applications

      I disagree however. Once government's start using military surveillance techniques on it's citizenry they are no longer a civilian government's but precursors to a police state. And the guys excited about it . . . I'm not sure whether thats scary or disgusting!

    6. Re:Next step by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      The new fashion accessory that every criminal thug just has to have: an umbrella.

      Oh, I'm betting these cameras will be using FLIR. I believe an umbrella would be completely transparent to that.

      In TFA it indicates that they spotted a traffic accident based on the heat of the vehicles and then focused in on the picture.

      Your brolly might as well be saran wrap.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:Next step by localman57 · · Score: 1

      Great. Like I didn't stand out enough already wearing this tin-foil hat. Now I have to carry an umbrella in good weather?

    8. Re:Next step by Jhon · · Score: 1

      I disagree however. Once government's start using military surveillance techniques on it's citizenry they are no longer a civilian government's but precursors to a police state. And the guys excited about it . . . I'm not sure whether thats scary or disgusting!

      I disagree. Just because the military does something doesn't necessarily mean it's a precursor to a police state. We've had sky cams for years -- the only thing different is the quality of the camera.

      If something takes place in public, I don't think there's any violation of here. If they put a camera in the sky that can "see" through walls, or bounce lasers off our home windows to "hear" what's going on inside WITHOUT a warrant and trust me, I'll grab the pitchfork, you grab the torch.

    9. Re:Next step by Shaltenn · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that you should mention that, as the FLIR article you linked on Wikipedia notes that "the use of a thermal imaging device from a public vantage point to monitor the radiation of heat from a person's home was a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and thus required a warrant"(Kyllo v. United States).
      So are they planning to completely ignore that, use a different kind of technology (which I think would still probably be not-quite-right by the spirit of that court ruling), or just haven't realized how blatantly stupid it is yet?

      --
      If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
    10. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see it now...

      An army composed of nerds, otakus, and /b/ (since we all know /b/ defies classification) joining forces to defeat the US Army.

      what could possibly go wrong?

    11. Re:Next step by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Well, let's see, so far citizens are unanimously in favor of:
      • Automated Speed Cameras
      • Red Light Cameras
      • Neighborhood Cameras (ala UK)
      • Cameras in the classrooms of elementary schools

      Well, sure, I'm guessing we'll all be embracing the next logical step in govt. surveillance!! The all seeing HD eye in the sky.

      Wait, did I forget my [sarcasm] tag??

      Sadly, there will be a decent number of people that will go for this. More and more these days a saying I heard awhile back is even more pertinent:

      What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The British Skinhead Brolly Boys will be the next big thing in organized crime

    13. Re:Next step by .-+KAREMBU+-. · · Score: 1

      Precursor?? You are one optimistic person..

      --
      "From here you can get an excellent view of my foot." ~ Pai Mei.
    14. Re:Next step by richlv · · Score: 1

      so will the video feed be accessible for the public ? you know, so that corrupt politicians and cops can be spotted...

      --
      Rich
    15. Re:Next step by Jhon · · Score: 1

      Let's look at this:

              * Automated Speed Cameras
      How is this any violation?

              * Red Light Cameras
      How is this any violation?

              * Neighborhood Cameras (ala UK)
      How is this any violation? It's not really implemented en mass in the US... but I don't think there is any reason why it couldn't be.

              * Cameras in the classrooms of elementary schools
      I've not heard of this and I'd need to see details before I form an opinion.

      Well, let's see, so far citizens are unanimously in favor of:

      In my country (the US) it shouldn't matter WHAT the citizens are in favor of or not -- it's what is allowed under the constitution and state/local laws. If the people do NOT like/want something, they vote for a representative who can work to change things. That's the advantage of living in a republic vs. a democracy (no fear of mob-rule or decisions made in the heat of the moment). Too bad our system has been warped over the past 100-150 years bypass it's built-in safe-guards (the amendment process via the judiciary, direct voting for senators -- and there's serious talk about direct voting for executive).

    16. Re:Next step by Dr_Ken · · Score: 1

      *precursors?* I'd say it's already morphed. The only difference between a surveillance state and an outright police state is a government entity having the means and the will to act on the surveillance intel. Scary.

      --
      "If you want to know what happens to you when you die, go look at some dead stuff."
    17. Re:Next step by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The army of nerds, otakus, and /b/ wins.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    18. Re:Next step by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      No, the difference is that this camera would ALWAYS be up, and the guy is quoted that "you'll never know if you are being watched" by the government. If that's not a sentimate in line with "pre-cursor to police state," I don't know what is.

    19. Re:Next step by siloko · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know you were joking but the awful truth is that when the politicians really are corrupt and they are bouncing off the walls in excitement over deploying military hardware against the electorate then neither they nor the Police are likely to be breaking any laws. Because they will be the law. Cue accusations of overblown paranoia . . . but the surveillance used now against private citizens isn't far away from that envisaged by Orwell . . .

    20. Re:Next step by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      So are they planning to completely ignore that, use a different kind of technology (which I think would still probably be not-quite-right by the spirit of that court ruling), or just haven't realized how blatantly stupid it is yet?

      Obviously, I can't answer that question directly.

      But, people looking to put up 24hr surveillance of everyone likely aren't too worried about your Fourth Amendment rights. :-P

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    21. Re:Next step by Jhon · · Score: 1

      No, the difference is that this camera would ALWAYS be up, and the guy is quoted that "you'll never know if you are being watched" by the government. If that's not a sentimate in line with "pre-cursor to police state," I don't know what is.

      Come on. Seriously? We've been using "always up" cameras in the US for decades -- they've just been stationary and mostly privately owned (security cameras at 7-11 captures an image of a murder taking place outside the store, ATM cam captures image of a man walking away with a now missing child). We've also had "sky cams" for decades -- they just, as you point out, were not "ALWAYS ... up".

      If this "sentimate" (sic) isn't in line with "tin-foil hat over-reactions," I don't know what is.

    22. Re:Next step by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      One of the fundamental concepts of american government was that, worst case, we would be able to replace it.

      Let's look at this (in a different order):

                      * Neighborhood Cameras (ala UK)
      How is this any violation? It's not really implemented en mass in the US... but I don't think there is any reason why it couldn't be.

      With these in place, your ability to act against the government is severely reduced. They can record and analyze every move you make. If anyone is shown to be against the government, they can tie you to every person you know. If we get into a Chilean situation, that just means you all disappear.

                      * Automated Speed Cameras
      How is this any violation?

      Not a bad idea per se--who wants speeders to get away with it-- except they can be used as part of a larger network to track your movements-- and more importantly-- this morning *every single person (several hundred) was speeding by at least 5 mph. The cameras could get ugly legally very fast.

                      * Red Light Cameras
      How is this any violation?
      The only issue i see is general movement tracking. People who run red lights are saying a minute of their time is more important than another person's life. Since right turn on red's are allowed, you can avoid a stuck light by making a right, then a u-turn.

                      * Cameras in the classrooms of elementary schools
      I've not heard of this and I'd need to see details before I form an opinion.
      I'm for this to protect everyone involved. Just like we need 24/7 cameras in police cars.
      They protect teachers-- and policemen-- from false accusations. And they catch teachers and policemen who are problems.
      However- the problem (again) is that teachers and policemen probably have a lot of little violations which become a problem with 100% enforcement. For example, it turns out... policemen run a LOT of red lights when they are not on a call. They don't blow through them- they pull up- decide they don't want to wait and then run the red- treating it like a stop sign.
      My city initially said "if you are not on a call, you pay the $75 fine out of your paycheck. But after a year, you no longer hear about it so I suspect the city is ignoring these infractions.

      --

      The reason for the second amendment is so we can resist tyranny. Thomas Jefferson expected the government to be changed more often-- it's the only way to stop the buildup of power.
      Right now, the u.s. is heading into both an aristocracy and an oligarchy. With a strong helping of facism throne in.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    23. Re:Next step by lobiusmoop · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Curiously enough, here in the UK, the fashion trend for 'hoodies' among teenagers took off pretty much in parallel with the explosion of CCTV monitoring in the cities.

      --
      "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    24. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If something takes place in public, I don't think there's any violation of here.

      Assuming that the word you accidentally was "privacy", then I disagree. Do I have a reasonable expectation of privacy from above? If I build solid fences around my yard, I reasonably expect that anyone looking in would qualify as a peeping tom. However, if there is no roof, does that give people the right to climb a tree or jump in a helicopter to look in?

    25. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Penguin forsaw this.

    26. Re:Next step by igloonaut · · Score: 1

      This would be nice since Lancaster doesn't have a police department of it's own and is under the jurisdiction of the L.A. County Sheriff's Department. I'd love to be able to catch LASD abusing their authority, which is their M.O. in that area unless you're a white suspect. However, I suspect this would be used exclusively for wrangling "suspected gang members" and helping R. Rex Parris (a shady lawyer) chase ambulances from above.

      --
      Kirkland Signature
    27. Re:Next step by pacergh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This simply is not true. Yes, the technology has been there for decades. No, it has not been used as a constant surveillance system.

      It is important to distinguish between privacy "concerns" and concerns of the legality of a system.

      Such constant surveillance is plausibly within the current surveillance limits established by the Supreme Court through Katz v. US and its progeny. After all, how much of a reasonable expectation of privacy do we have in our public actions. (There are cases dealing with flyovers using targeted cameras which may preclude Lancaster's use of this system, though.)

      Nevertheless, such an intrusion on the everyday activities of citizenry is a privacy concern. This means that whether or not it is allowable under the law, the question (and concern) is whether it should be done regardless of its legality.

      There are reasons why this is and should be a concern for normal citizens (even outside the fallacious arguments of the "you don't have anything to fear if you are doing nothing wrong" camp).

      First, the belief that someone is watching has chilling effects on the activities of people. This is a benefit for the prevention of crime, but is a negative when you throw in the impact it has on legal actions that may also violate social norms.

      We try not to legislate social norms in this country but, rather, legislate laws that balance utility against liberty. (Note the word try -- there are always cases of bad laws, either intentionally or unintentionally passed.) Government run, controlled, and accessed surveillance in effect chills actions beyond social norms in a way that is nearly as effective as legislation.

      Second, this is a fairness issue here. Surveillance only flows one way -- information taken in goes to the government. It is not widely disseminated. Therefore, those in power to review the information also have the power to highlight and bury information as they deem necessary. These people may deem it necessary for valid reasons, or invalid ones based on avoiding the embarrassment of friends or family.

      Allowing all people to access the surveillance would alleviate this problem. The information will be free so, as an above poster commented, ordinary citizens will also be allowed to see when the watchers are caught figuratively (and literally) with their britches down. Even so, you will still have a chilling effect based upon social norms.

      Third, there are real questions as to whether this is the best method of achieving the alleged goals of law enforcement. Does surveillance work better in creating a safe society, or does active police interaction within a community work better? Studies are inconclusive and often fail to properly measure effectiveness. The methodology of studies connecting cost-per-arrest are inherently flawed since some arrests do more to provide a community safety than others.

      In the end this is a far more pervasive and intrusive surveillance than the past aerial surveillance referenced by the poster above.

      So, privacy concerns from eyes in the sky were not settled decades ago. First, you confuse privacy concerns (which are necessarily ongoing and ever-changing in nature) with legal concerns (which are more static, albeit not completely static). Second, the surveillance discussed by the OP is significantly different than the kind you reference and, therefore, even the legal concerns of this program were not "settled decades ago."

      - John

    28. Re:Next step by igloonaut · · Score: 1

      An umbrella with a middle finger graphic on the top would be my choice of year-round protection from the elements.

      --
      Kirkland Signature
    29. Re:Next step by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      They've had "eye in the sky" helicopters for years. I've said before that we're already a police state and the bill of rights is meaningless. We didn't even notice that it happened, it happened so slowly.

      Any time you have Secret Police (which we euphamistically call "plainclothesmen" and "undercover agents") you have a police state.

    30. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then, let them hover over your backyard. The word surveillance was used. You don't see a problem with that?

    31. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Btw, could someone tag the story "bluethunder"? I can't seem to add tags.

      I still haven't figured out why people bother with the slashdot tags. They're frequently editorializing and contribute little to no value. (Ever tried to search for an article on Slashdot? Good luck)

    32. Re:Next step by mmaniaci · · Score: 1

      And maybe the citizens are not in favor of them. I sure am against the idea of this police/nanny state that the US and other countries are spiraling towards. <tinFoilHat> Maybe the government and media only makes it seem like we the sheeple are in favor of surveillance. </tinFoilHat>

    33. Re:Next step by Painted · · Score: 2, Informative

      Having operated FLIR gear, there is no way the umbrella would be "completely transparent" to IR. Perhaps there will be a new technology in the future, such as sub-millimeter radar that could give the resolution you're implying, but current IR gear cannot. You would simply see that there was a heat source under the umbrella making it warmer than the background. The drug deal taking place under it would be undetectable.

      --
      http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
    34. Re:Next step by sckeener · · Score: 1
      Not to sound like I like this sort of thing, but we didn't have privacy in the past. We are just returning to a more village type of mindset.

      The only issue with this sort of surveillance is can we over look aspects of society that we don't agree with?

      America is testing its core beliefs with this concept and the masses don't even know it. The more surveillance we have the more people are going to see things they don't like.

      Heck the news media already brings horrible things straight into our homes even though horrible things like violent crime are on the decrease for the last few decades. They get the masses riled up over it.

      I certainly hope we can ignore such things, but my big fear is that someday it'll all be recorded..every second of our lives. Lying won't be possible without hacking the recording...and then businesses will make decisions based on behavior from years ago. Heck I can even see a future law where like credit checks, business won't, supposedly, be able to consider bad behavior from 7 years or more ago....

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    35. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My God, you actually liked George Bush didn't you? You're pretty naive if you don't think this technology will be abused. Your local cops look up license plates of the hottie they just saw driving down the road. Her address is none of their business unless she violates some law. Data collected on people in itself is harmless until someone decides to start making selective queries against it.

      Security cameras are put in place to protect an area (ATMs, gates and entrances) they are not meant for surveillance. An eye in the sky is used for surveillance. Remember that when you and your significant other are getting your freak on by the backyard pool, city park, etc.

    36. Re:Next step by skeeto · · Score: 1

      If you have a roof then you must have something to hide!

    37. Re:Next step by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      ...made of tinfoil!

    38. Re:Next step by bluie- · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure whether thats scary or disgusting!

      That's definitely the part that got to me the most. This guy needs to pick up a copy of 1984. I only hope if it does get deployed, he'll be nailed by it for doing something stupid.

      --
      life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think
    39. Re:Next step by tunapez · · Score: 1

      What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces.

      Sadly, in each generation, for every one sensible person, there are 100,000 vidiots who think Reality TV is real.

      Reminds me of an HVAC tech's response to his inability to find duct tape after 9/11:
      "I feel just like Jesus, I get to suffer for the sins of all the stupid people."

      --
      Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
    40. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... The camera detected the collision due to the heat produced by the vehicles, and within seconds focused ...

      So, apparently, it already has some sort of heat sensor, isn't that more or less the kind of technology used to peer through a roof?

      From reading the article, it really smells like some kind of press release, wouldn't surprise me if Mr. Mayor had some kind of investment in the company, everything was a big glowing review.

    41. Re:Next step by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      ...and more importantly-- this morning *every single person (several hundred) was speeding by at least 5 mph. The cameras could get ugly legally very fast.

      What really gets ugly is when you consider that some states have laws that make it illegal to drive less than x MPH (where x is something like 5-10MPH) slower than the traffic around you. However, the posted speed limit is the maximum speed that you can legally drive, which puts you in a Catch-22 situation: the law says you can't drive faster than the posted speed limit, but if traffic is moving sufficiently faster than the posted speed limit, you can't legally drive that slow, either. No matter what you do, you have broken the law, and the cameras caught you doing it...

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    42. Re:Next step by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Having operated FLIR gear, there is no way the umbrella would be "completely transparent" to IR. Perhaps there will be a new technology in the future, such as sub-millimeter radar that could give the resolution you're implying, but current IR gear cannot.

      Then I stand corrected, as I've never operated such equipment. :-P

      I just figured thin nylon would be essentially transparent to it.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    43. Re:Next step by element-o.p. · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not to sound like I like this sort of thing, but we didn't have privacy in the past. We are just returning to a more village type of mindset.

      Yes, except that in a village, everyone had the scoop on you, but you had the scoop on them, as well. Consequently, everyone agreed to ignore each others little indiscretions. With where we are headed now, the government has the scoop on us, and we have...nothing on the government. That imbalance of power makes this a very dangerous situation.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    44. Re:Next step by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Calling Parris shady is like calling Hitler mean.

    45. Re:Next step by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Sorry but not seeing through walls is not enough. I put up privacy fence for a reason. I want privacy. I want to be able to continue to walk around naked in my yard. To fuck on the lawn. To drink to intoxication w/ my special friends. All without an audience.
              There is no doubt in my mind that once this plane gets "made" it will get shot at just like the "pork" choppers. The difference is this won't get shot at by some "bro" in the "hood" who couldn't hit a barn at 10 feet holding his revolver sideways. This will be taken out by a general citizen with a deer rifle who knows when boundaries have been overstepped by overzealous bureucraps.
                Gunna' happen, you just sit back and watch.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    46. Re:Next step by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      Okay, use an aluminized mylar umbrella then. Of course they can still track your implanted RFID chip...

    47. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are to protect people from criminals!!!!

      Of course after they are in place they will start outlawing ideas, beliefs, and criminalizing associations... but hey, a criminal is a criminal... especially if he disagrees with ME!

    48. Re:Next step by memnock · · Score: 1

      i'm not necessarily arguing with the basic premise of your statement, but i don't think there is unaminous support.

      those people that are against these things try to protest their utilization and are made to look like crackpots. if there was a way for them to present their disagreement and voice their argument in a way that was as official looking as a police chief's or mayor's they probably wouldn't look like a fringe minority. although, maybe they are after all.

    49. Re:Next step by flyneye · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of when G. Gordon Liddy on his radio show advocated taking out traffic cameras with a BB gun.
        Night time, park somewhere out of view, pump that baby up and POP! Next!
      The only real problem is, a week later some city flunky is just putting up another one to replace it.
                  I doubt though that a cessna would be replaced after a violently fiery death of a pilot and the household he crashed into. I personally wouldn't shoot at big brothers plane( unless I knew it woulndn't hurt anyone innocent ), but you can bet someone will . The resulting scandal will send a message and we will be rid of this stupid idea and others like it. Too bad career politicians, like the moron mayor who thought this up, don't think of anyone but themselves, in a very real ironic sense of the phrase.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    50. Re:Next step by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      So are they planning to completely ignore that

      No, no, no... don't be silly... you get the warrant after you record the crime it's been common for a few years now. Didn't you get the memo? no? o... sorry must have slipped our minds.

    51. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The other abuse factor is that it is selective, based on the operator.

      "Gee, that's my friend Charlie with walking towards those drug dealers..." (pans camera away from Charlie)

      "Gee, looks like those officers are about to nightstick-sodomize that homeless dude..." (flies drone back to landing strip for "maintenance")

      "Gee, looks like my girlfriend... WTF?! WHO IS THAT GUY?!" (zooms in close, follows them around, dupes the tape for his personal use... and during this time, ignores the punks roughing up random passersby in front of the convenience store across the street.)

    52. Re:Next step by element-o.p. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If this "sentimate" (sic) isn't in line with "tin-foil hat over-reactions," I don't know what is.

      I call Bovine Scatalogy.

      As is, privately owned security cameras aren't worth the effort for the government to monitor on a large scale. NSA/ATT aside, law enforcement generally needs a subpoena or warrant to require you to release your private security camera's recordings. With this new technology, surveillance is possible 24x7 without the necessity of obtaining those pesky warrants and subpoenas. As if that's not enough (and I think that it is), while we have had "sky cams" the new camera is using technology that previously was only available to NASA, the military and maybe a handful of others, but this camera will be available to local law enforcement as well...and as you admitted, the previous air cams were not "ALWAYS ... up". Besides, I know this is /., but did you read TFA? Mayor Parris was practically drooling over himself as he contemplated the possibilities this thing opens up for him.

      Call me a tin-foil hat if you want, but I just can't convince myself that GP was overreacting.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    53. Re:Next step by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "In my country (the US) it shouldn't matter WHAT the citizens are in favor of or not -- it's what is allowed under the constitution and state/local laws. If the people do NOT like/want something, they vote for a representative who can work to change things."

      Shouldn't the representatives of my country (US for me too) fscking ASK the constituents if they want these damned things in the first place, rather than listen to the pitch by the private companies operating these systems (red light for sure, I think maybe the speed cameras too) telling them how much revenue they will bring in???

      Yes, I do now hear of states voting these damned things out, but, bigger question is...why were they brought in at all, without asking the people if the wanted the damned things?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    54. Re:Next step by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I sure am against the idea of this police/nanny state that the US and other countries are spiraling towards.

      Since "nanny state" invokes images of certain amount of benevolence, I prefer the term "wicked stepmother state": socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor, and corporations at the helm.

      Maybe the government and media only makes it seem like we the sheeple are in favor of surveillance.

      The word "sheeple" is quickly becoming just as overused as "fascist", and is nowadays my cue to assume that the message I'm reading is an inept Libertarian/Rayndian propaganda rant. Besides, by using the word "we" you are talking about people collectively, and must therefore be a communist. Why do you hate freedom so much, comrade?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    55. Re:Next step by DrVomact · · Score: 1

      No, obviously the next step is employing Predator drones to conduct surveillance. This would bring the added benefit of allowing remote police "operators" to simply blow evildoers away via remote control. That, my friends, would constitute a "police state". —Now being beta-tested in a faraway country...

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    56. Re:Next step by Reziac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Our mayor (yes, I live in the AV) would indeed outlaw roofs if he could. This is the same guy who said that he would seize and kill law-abiding citizens' pets if doing so would discourage gang members from owning dogs.

      Think I'm making this up??
      http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/26/local/me-dogordinance26?pg=1
      ======
      "What happens when these gang members that you're trying to target move on to Dobermans or German shepherds? You going to restrict them too?" Listman asked the council.

      "If they move on to cats," Parris responded, "I'm going to take their cats."
      ======

      He's an ambulance chaser by profession, which means in his worldview, there is only one solution for every social ill: SOMEONE MUST PAY!!

      The man is a menace to the Constitution.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    57. Re:Next step by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      I can't see what's so wrong about this. Really. It's not like they're invading people's bedrooms, recording their dinner talks etc - it just films people in the streets, a place were you can't demand privacy anyways. Instead of unreliable witnesses you now have an eye in the sky, and just think about how much policemen following an outlaw on the run could benefit from this as well.

      I'm not saying there can't possibly be anything wrong with it, but I yet have to hear better counterarguments than purely ideological ones.

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    58. Re:Next step by davester666 · · Score: 1

      and hats
      and umbrellas

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    59. Re:Next step by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Mine's made of tin foil!

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    60. Re:Next step by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      They are the law anyways. When the government wants you gone, it can make you disappear/"die in an accident" easily with the resources they have access to. That's the downside of having a government strong enough to protect you from any threats - if it thinks *you* are a threat, you can be "taken care of" just as easily as the Al'Quaida terrorist next door.

      But hey, you're living in a republic, no? So make sure you vote for the right representatives and everything should be fine.

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    61. Re:Next step by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Not to sound like I like this sort of thing, but we didn't have privacy in the past

      Of course we did. Unlike cameras, people don't watch open spaces 24/7. And unlike cameras, your face will disappear from someone's short term memory in about 3 seconds, unless they have some reason to remember you. And even if said person does remember you, that information is in their head, not permanently stored.

    62. Re:Next step by a_nonamiss · · Score: 1

      Wow... I googled this Parris fellow. So he's the mayor of town, a seedy ambulance-chaser, and has the high school in Lancaster named after him? Holy crap this guy's got his finger in an awful lot of pies...

      --
      -Arthur
      Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
    63. Re:Next step by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Let's look at this

      Because law enforcement should be based around noticing and investigating probable suspicion, not constant surveillance of day-to-day public activities with automatic penalties.

    64. Re:Next step by Aphoxema · · Score: 2, Funny

      With a strong helping of facism throne in.

      I thought for a moment you should have wrote "thrown" but I decided "throne" is more fitting.

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    65. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in Cincinnati, we have an even more depressing reality: the inept police state: We just got a bunch of high tech license plate scanners that can either be mounted on a squad car or set up at a stationary post. They continuously scan, able to read 90 plates a minute. The problem is, even with our new super ability to track and catch criminals, we have no jail space. Rapists and thieves are being released every day back onto the streets. So any deterrent that these systems might have served as is now gone, since the would be criminal knows that ultimately they'll be back on the street again anyway, so who cares if they get caught?

      If you make basic logic illegal, only the criminals...

    66. Re:Next step by Limburgher · · Score: 1

      I'm not unanimous means what you think it means.

      --

      You are not the customer.

    67. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would argue that there is subtle difference between "village gossip" and HD video of one's every action...

    68. Re:Next step by michaelhood · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If something takes place in public, I don't think there's any violation of here. If they put a camera in the sky that can "see" through walls, or bounce lasers off our home windows to "hear" what's going on inside WITHOUT a warrant and trust me, I'll grab the pitchfork, you grab the torch.

      Yeah, I'm sure they'll close their eyes if they see something in your privacy fenced-in backyard.

    69. Re:Next step by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you'll see a person is there, under the umbrella just fine, but FLIR will not do much to tell you who they are.

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    70. Re:Next step by michaelhood · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that you should mention that, as the FLIR article you linked on Wikipedia notes that "the use of a thermal imaging device from a public vantage point to monitor the radiation of heat from a person's home was a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, and thus required a warrant"(Kyllo v. United States).
        So are they planning to completely ignore that, use a different kind of technology (which I think would still probably be not-quite-right by the spirit of that court ruling), or just haven't realized how blatantly stupid it is yet?

      That ruling would only apply if the person was in their home. Not if they were out and about in "public."

    71. Re:Next step by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      I'm sure you'll see a person is there, under the umbrella just fine, but FLIR will not do much to tell you who they are.

      They don't need to know who you are, just that you're up to no good.

    72. Re:Next step by tftp · · Score: 1

      Besides, by using the word "we" you are talking about people collectively, and must therefore be a communist.

      Who could have known that the Constitution of the United States was written by communists! (link)

    73. Re:Next step by tibman · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that those government agents are your neighbors and subject to the same rules. Most government employees don't deal with classified secret (or above) stuff and would be happy to talk to you about their job.

      All of this domestic monitoring seems aimed from law-enforcement.. speeding tickets, high-crime zones, cell tracking/monitoring of known offenders, thermal cams on Heli's for detecting drugs. If government resources are used for political or personal reasons it's abuse, plain and simple. The abuser's Punishment should be harsh and public (as in transparent and viewable by the pulic, not put on TV).

      I've only recently known the civilian side of government and i find it lacking in institutionalized morals and principles.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    74. Re:Next step by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      It's not. It's translucent.

      Similar words, important difference.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    75. Re:Next step by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Lancaster?! It's next to Dryden AFB, Is the Mayor still touchy about the incident with the U.S.Marines? That guy should just let it go. The ledgend goes something like, "A division of Marines had just left Lancaster. All of 'em were different after their deployment there, they were changed; they were afraid." Well, we were just playing around a little, and the Marines feelings got hurt; We're sorry. Really, Lancaster isn't the edge of nowhere, but you can see it while walking across its prime grade A soccer complex. Seriously, if you kick your Soccer Ball over the fence, you don't go after it. The rattle snakes stay on their side of the fence, mostly.

    76. Re:Next step by soren202 · · Score: 1

      How naive, thinking that it still works like that...

      It doesn't. At all. If somebody abuses it, it'll likely go on for months before somebody finds out that can do something about it.

      To be honest, I'm more worried about who mans these cameras. If it's local citizens, there are FAR too many ways to abuse this system, and if it's a computer, than there's no way to take the context of the situation into account, which is the main problem I have with red light cameras and the like (they always give tickets, while cops might be more lenient depending on the situation).

    77. Re:Next step by soren202 · · Score: 1

      That's the thing about IR though - you can see both.

    78. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He looks like a shithead...
      http://www.rrexparris.com/html/rex-parris.html

    79. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two scoops! Nigga!

    80. Re:Next step by tibman · · Score: 1

      I agree that people should be kept in the loop, for judgment calls. I also agree that abuse is unlikely to be caught immediately and could even go on for a long period of time. This is why i believe institutional moral values are important. When working with important and potentially sensitive information a highly professional and strict work environment is a MUST.. no slacking or cutting corners. This leads to unkept logs, lack of oversight, and opens the door for unmonitored abuses.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    81. Re:Next step by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Well, let's see, so far citizens are unanimously in favor of:

      It's interesting, how you state that as "it just is".
      So which one of the following are you:
        Someone buying in on the bullshit his government states to justify this?
        Someone talking bullshit?
        Someone working for the government?

      Wait, did I forget my [sarcasm] tag??

      Yes, you did. In fact there never was a post where it was required more, than here. :P

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    82. Re:Next step by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Well, the solution to this is easy, isn't it?

      He is only one guy. I say "SOMEONE MUST PAY!!".

      I give you a hint: That someone's name starts with "P" and ends in "arris" :P

      Either kick his ass, or shut up. Whining will not fix anything.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    83. Re:Next step by Reziac · · Score: 1

      If this were the Old West, he'd find himself tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail. Unfortunately, our politicians no longer face such consequences for their actions.

      The sad thing is, he was elected after a recall (or attempted recall, I don't remember how it went -- I live just outside the city limits) of the previous mayor, whom people were mad at for firing the city manager.

      I'd also like to know how one maintains a 'reasonable expectation of privacy' in your own back yard (even with a 'privacy fence'), when Big Brother's Spy Eye is passing overhead ... and how we who are not technically city residents can avoid its scrutiny, since there is really nothing to prevent air surveillance from going whither it will... Lancaster sprawls across a 30-mile-long stretch of desert, so to patrol many parts of the city, you'd be forced to fly over a lot of unincorporated area. It's all one law enforcement division anyway, tho, since the city of Lancaster contracts with the L.A. County Sheriff dept.

      Hey! I've got a great idea. Someone should tether a surveillance balloon where it can peer down into Mr.Parris' yard! What's good for the goose... oh, you say the gander doesn't like it??! Whoda thunk??

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    84. Re:Next step by Steve+Franklin · · Score: 1

      Take a good look at what is going on in Iran and tell me this kind of surveillance is harmless. And make no mistake about it: These folks are interested in which laws YOU break, not which laws THEY break. Do you seriously think an "eye in the sky" would have stopped Rumsfeld from allowing the attack on the pentagon in September of 2001? Or the coup d'etat in November of 1963? This is about more power to the powerful, it's not about enforcing the jaywalking law.

      --
      Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
    85. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once government's start using military surveillance techniques on it's citizenry they are no longer a civilian government's but precursors to a police state. And the guys excited about it . . . I'm not sure whether thats scary or disgusting!

      After having lived in Lancaster and hearing R Rex Paris's commercials on TV for years I can assure you that the man is both scary and disgusting.

    86. Re:Next step by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Now that you mention it, I WAS completely in favor of cameras on school buses. Idiots do stupid things when the driver isn't looking, and they can be really mean. It's nice to know that even if you do end up hurt or dead, there's someone or something watching. Kind of like having a constant yard duty.

      --
      Qxe4
    87. Re:Next step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well it is better than the "supposed" CIA plan to put a balloon up at 65,000 feet for a year at a time.

      Even if teh CIA did it I would love to hear how it just drifted into space.

    88. Re:Next step by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Very good point.

      "I know what you did last summer," is not nearly as ominous as "I know what you did last summer, and I can show you the video, if you don't believe me."

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  2. Anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    going to offer a reward to the first person to shoot the damn thing down?

    1. Re:Anyone... by Ihlosi · · Score: 5, Insightful
      going to offer a reward to the first person to shoot the damn thing down?

      Ask your friendly neighborhood drug lord.

      The next version of the plane is then going to be armed with 20mm cannons. Why just watch crime when you can stop it dead?

    2. Re:Anyone... by localman57 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Awesome. The local private pilots are gonna love it when their Cessna 172's start being shot at for no apparent reason.

    3. Re:Anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awesome. The local private pilots are gonna love it when their Cessna 172's start being shot at for no apparent reason.

      "Your aircraft has been impounded. Your next of kin has 30 minutes to remove your cube."

    4. Re:Anyone... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually it is pretty dang hard to shoot down a Cessna 172 with the type of hardware your local drug lord can get a hold of.
      Think about it. It will probably be flying at around 1000 feet. It will also probably not right over your head. So the slant range is going to be pretty long. Next it will be flying at around 100 MPH.
      So unless you get something better than your average gun odds are you will not hit one without a lot of luck.
      That and I would think anybody standing around pointing a gun at the sky letting off a lot of rounds is going to attract a lot of attention.

      Now if you got a nut job geek then maybe they could build a DIY anti-aircraft gun but I think even that would tend to attract a lot of attention.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:Anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One cheap almost ready to fly remote control air plane, a good judge of speed and distance and 20mm cannons won't save it.

      Seriously, the answer to crime is the same as it's always been: feet on the beat, good public relations and hard work.

    6. Re:Anyone... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Actually it is pretty dang hard to shoot down a Cessna 172 with the type of hardware your local drug lord can get a hold of.

      Think about it. It will probably be flying at around 1000 feet. It will also probably not right over your head. So the slant range is going to be pretty long. Next it will be flying at around 100 MPH.

      So unless you get something better than your average gun odds are you will not hit one without a lot of luck. That and I would think anybody standing around pointing a gun at the sky letting off a lot of rounds is going to attract a lot of attention.

      Now if you got a nut job geek then maybe they could build a DIY anti-aircraft gun but I think even that would tend to attract a lot of attention.

      I suppose you could get one of these bad boys if you were wanting to do a little skeet shooting. Or, could you go the geek route and put together a really powerful EMP/HERF gun?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:Anyone... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Hard work? But that's too hard! Why can't we just let the police listen in on everything we say, look at everything we do, and not "tie their hands" with time-wasters like warrants or evidence rules. Eventually we can simplify things down to "police shoot person they say was doing something wrong, officer given a raise for great work." There's no downside to that, right? ;-)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    8. Re:Anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The next version of the plane is then going to be armed with 20mm cannons. Why just watch crime when you can stop it dead?

      I'd buy that for a dollar!

    9. Re:Anyone... by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      I was going to Google "military surplus surface to air missile" but that seems a little risky in this day and age. I'd be sure to have the FBI at my office in a few min with a query like that. I'm afraid the government has won.

      FYI - this is what the second amendment was for. I should be able to buy a shoulder mounted surface to air missile launcher for just this reason.

      meh, my curiosity got the best of me: FIM-92_Stinger.
      I'm sure I'm on a blacklist someplace now... but of course its not that easy to find such a weapon...

    10. Re:Anyone... by larry+bagina · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      According to Barack Obama and his sycophant news lapdogs, mexican drug lords buy all their assault rifles, machine guns, grenades, anti-aircraft missiles, rocket launchers, etc at gun shows in the US. I'm sure American drug lords could do the same.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    11. Re:Anyone... by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Or, could you go the geek route and put together a really powerful EMP/HERF gun?

      I should probably surrender my geek card now. I actually had to think for a minute about why an EMP/HERF gun would make any difference to a CE-172. Sure, you'd knock out the radios, but a 172 can still fly with a completely dead electrical system, since the spark for the plugs is provided by magnetos -- I'm not sure if an EMP would disable the mags (probably depends upon how powerful the EMP was).

      Then it occurred to me that it doesn't matter that the airplane is still flying if the camera is dead...

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    12. Re:Anyone... by Buelldozer · · Score: 1

      They likely won't know if they are being shot at unless they are hit. Rifle reports really aren't that loud at distance, even less so when the listener and the rifle are at different elevations.

    13. Re:Anyone... by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      I can't believe a drug lord wouldn't have trouble getting something like a Stinger or Strela...

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    14. Re:Anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They had similar Copseyes in King's Free Park. All got a bit ugly once they were taken down...

  3. Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Or how else is this thing going to circle the city constantly if they only have one?

    Seriously, though, the whole idea is wrong on so many levels it's not funny anymore. Privacy aside, couldn't they at least use a platform that's better suited to long-term surveillance, such as a small (drone-sized), unmanned airship?

    1. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Akido37 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's like those cities with cameras everywhere, except some of the camera boxes don't even contain a camera.

      For the system to work, it doesn't actually have to record every crime. It only has to deter people from committing crimes out of fear that they MAY be recorded.

      That said, I think that constant surveillance will be the end of our republic.

    2. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by cmdrkynes · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is no way they can really afford to keep a small jet airplane in the air just circling for hours... That is thousands of dollars a day worth of fuel.

    3. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by selven · · Score: 0

      I would use hundreds of airships floating around the city, so you get a clearer view of everything (with a single camera once the ground distance is beyond 2 or 3 times the camera's height you can't see behind buildings at all). You can also paint them blue to make them less obvious.

    4. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by furby076 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Privacy outside of a building is not constitutionally mandated. Walking on the street? Anyone can take pictures of you - media, gov't, private citizens and you have zero privacy claims. There is no expectation of privacy when you leave the protection of a building.

      There were some issues, in the past, with aerial photos of people in their backyard which had walls (and obviously no ceilings). I don't recall what the ruling was but I think it was ruled that if there is no roof there is no expectation of privacy....so you may want to make sure your drug deals are done within 5 enclosed walls :)

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    5. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by mdwh2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Privacy outside of a building is not constitutionally mandated. Walking on the street? Anyone can take pictures of you - media, gov't, private citizens and you have zero privacy claims. There is no expectation of privacy when you leave the protection of a building.

      But as soon as an individual points a camera at this aircraft, you can bet that police will be telling them they're not allowed to do it, that they must delete the photos, or arresting them on some terrorism charge (at least, that's what would happen in the UK).

      It's as if objects, buildings and so on have more of an expectation of privacy than individuals do...

    6. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Privacy aside, couldn't they at least use a platform that's better suited to long-term surveillance, such as a small (drone-sized), unmanned airship?

      From TFA ...

      At first, Rutan looked into deploying the camera on an unmanned aircraft to patrol the city's skies, but that proved to be too expensive and faced too many difficulties with Federal Aviation Administration regulations.

      Using a conventional small plane "solves all kinds of problems," Rutan said. "It's a lot cheaper to have a pilot on board than a drone."

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but c'mon, this is Kalifornia we're talking about. They're operating at a huge deficit. This type of stuff is stupid, and explains exactly why Cali is in this situation to begin with.

      I've never seen a state so intent on "protecting" their citizens from themselves like California. It's sad.

      (I spent 5 years in California, I love the state itself, it's a wonderful place, but damn, those folks are cutting off their noses to spite their face, I swear)

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    8. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by mraudigy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The average Cessna plane consume between 5 to 9 gallons of fuel per hour. With an rough estimate fuel price of $5.25/gallon in the SW region, a "surveillance" plane that flys 24/7 would cost:

      $5.25 * 7 = $36.75/hr.
      $36.75 * 24 = $882/day.
      $882 * 365 = $321,930/year.

      As such...
      Cessna Surveillance Plan: $125,000
      1 year of fuel: $321,930
      Killing both privacy, the economy, and the budget is one fell swoop: Priceless.

    9. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by show+me+altoids · · Score: 1
      FTFA:

      It would be stupid to commit a crime.

      As opposed to all the geniuses robbing 7-11s now.

      --
      I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel
    10. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by evilkasper · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that its pretty much proven that surveillance equipment does not prevent crime. Look at all the black and white footage from security cameras you can find. When he mentions it would be stupid to commit a crime.... I have to wonder if he has any knowledge of the types of crimes this is supposed to prevent and the criminals that commit them.

    11. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by aynoknman · · Score: 1

      I don't recall what the ruling was but I think it was ruled that if there is no roof there is no expectation of privacy....so you may want to make sure your drug deals are done within 5 enclosed walls :)

      They better be tin-foil walls as well, given the creep (both senses of the word ) of surveillance into our lives.

      --
      We need a "+1 -- nice sig" moderation.
    12. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is the same as the stretch of the Garden State Parkway that says "speed monitored by aircraft" - if you see aircraft in the sky, slow down.

      Otherwise, the road earns the nickname I've given it - Garden State Speedway.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    13. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by furby076 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But as soon as an individual points a camera at this aircraft, you can bet that police will be telling them they're not allowed to do it, that they must delete the photos, or arresting them on some terrorism charge (at least, that's what would happen in the UK). It's as if objects, buildings and so on have more of an expectation of privacy than individuals do...

      Not sure why your post would be marked insightful since it is pure speculation. There are valid concerns with top secret items and the gov't not wanting you to take pictures of them. For example if the gov't came out with a new plane that had some new, awesome and secret technology it makes sense they don't want you taking a picture of it. This technology is nothing new...it's been featured in games, tv shows, and hell is just a combination of technology that's been around for decades with some relatively new technology (HD TV).

      Feel free to take all the pictures you want of this aircraft...once the military sells something to civies it loses it's top secret status.

      BTW this technology amounts to an RC airplane + HD cam corder + a transmitter of the cam corder. I'd imagine someone here on /. could make said device...it may not be as good as what these cops will have - then again they have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on professional gear - but it will do the same thing.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    14. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by cellurl · · Score: 1

      This is a steady erosion of our rights, we all know that.

      What are YOU going to do about it?
      What can we get 10% of slashdot users to do? Seriously, all we do [me too] is bitch. Let write this F*cker.
      I am sending a letter tonight to his boss. Please send a letter:

      Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
      State Capitol Building
      Sacramento, CA 95814
      Tell him Mayor R. Rex Parris has taken accountability for the citizens with this airplane program. You hereby expect protection and hold him accountable for the protection of the citizens. You should be allowed to sue the city for crime. This should be a change in the states constitution to allow suing a city based on promise of protection.

    15. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by eldaria · · Score: 1

      Well in London they have Cameras everywhere and they actually look at them, however the crime rate has not gone down. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7384843.stm

    16. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by hacker · · Score: 1

      ...and what about our right to a clear view of the sky? What about sun? Photosynthesis? Plants?

      You can't just black out the sunlight in favor of all of this misappropriated pseudo-monitoring of civilians. What's next? Outlawing roofs?

    17. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Broken+scope · · Score: 1

      Outside of a building or outside your property?

      --
      You mad
    18. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Informative

      He is referring to reports of incidents where the police have attempted to confiscate cameras that were used to take pictures of them making an arrest. There was a case a year or so ago where the police arrested someone for videoing them making an arrest. There was actually a law in that state making it illegal to video a police officer. Fortunately, the state courts ruled the law unconstitutional.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    19. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by furby076 · · Score: 1

      Outside of a building or outside your property?

      Building. Imagine you have a house and a backyard. Surrounding your backyard you have a 10 foot wood fence that you couldn't see through (no gaps between the wooden slates). You, however, do not have a roof on your backyard so someone flying overhead could see your smoking hot wife naked tanning next to your olympic sized swimming pool. No privacy protection from eye's in the sky. So while they are checking out your hot wifes rack they are also watching you perform that drug deal and sending in swat to bust you. Again i may be remembering wrong, this was a long time ago.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    20. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by physburn · · Score: 1
      If its going to be in the Air all the time, and just circle. Why don't the replace it with a few balloons or Zeppelins as fixed air platform. Surely that would be a lot cheaper in maintenance, pilot time, and not burn any petrol. That said I'm not in favour of mass surveillance, i believe the crime reduction isn't worth the loss of civil privacy and increased taxes.

      ---

      Privacy v Surveillance Feed @ Feed Distiller

    21. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      The general idea is that the government should play by the same rules that it imposes on its people. If the military doesn't want me taking pictures of their top-secret aircraft, then they shouldn't fly it over my house. And generally they don't, they have big restricted areas out west that they use in order to avoid this problem. But on the other hand, there has been plenty of publicity surrounding instances where people have gotten hassled by the authorities for taking pictures of stuff that's standing out in plain sight. Generally it's not illegal to be taking pictures of this stuff, but many times that doesn't stop police or security guards from overstepping their bounds and trying to make people stop or make them delete their photos.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    22. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by sukotto · · Score: 1

      Even better will be when someone here manages to hack it and starts posting pics of his wife topless sunbathing in their backyard on the net. As soon as he realizes that it's also watching HIM, he may be a little less enthusiastic about how great it is.

      --
      Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
    23. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although, this isn't just "anyone" taking pictures.

    24. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by j_166 · · Score: 1

      Easy, instead of using airships, make them the size of basketballs. All they really need to do is contain some sort of 360 degree camera system and a wireless uplink. Instead of fixing them in one places, just develop some sort of AI to let them freely roam around with a rotor or something. Think Roomba in the sky.

    25. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by stim · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think he is referring to the growing trend of police /themselves/ believing you cant film them or take pictures of them. I don't know how many times I have seen video of cops confiscating cameras and or arresting civilians for taking pictures of them.

      --
      Browse at -1 to keep an eye out for abuses.
    26. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by bkpark · · Score: 1

      Privacy aside, couldn't they at least use a platform that's better suited to long-term surveillance, such as a small (drone-sized), unmanned airship?

      You mean like this one? Or wait, I guess you wanted a small airship, not a blimp the size of a football stadium ...

      When someone mentioned this kind of technology (spy blimp) potentially being used within U.S. border, I thought they were dead wrong, but I guess now I stand corrected. There are disgusting statists in California who will treat their own citizen like terrorists or enemies of the state in their own city.

    27. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by selven · · Score: 1

      The point is to make each one very small. Also, I'm not advocating anything, I'm just thinking about how I would implement this.

    28. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Your short about ~$250,000 a year. Figure $150,000 for pilots, and another $100,00 for naintence.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    29. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by dzfoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >> If its going to be in the Air all the time, and just circle. Why don't the replace it with a few balloons or Zeppelins as fixed air platform.

      OK, I'll bite: Because the mounting harness of the camera system sold by the contractor buddy of the Mayor, is custom made to install on airplanes sold by the golf partner of the contractor. The owner of the balloon/airship company was not aware of the project, and so couldn't offer to chip in for the Mayor's summer vacation trip.

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    30. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by furby076 · · Score: 1

      I think he is referring to the growing trend of police /themselves/ believing you cant film them or take pictures of them. I don't know how many times I have seen video of cops confiscating cameras and or arresting civilians for taking pictures of them.

      Well thats a different topic, and one that I agree with. Cops do not have the right to confiscate cameras though depending on the situation I can see their point (e.g. you took a picture of an undercover drug cop with his family and your goal is to post it on tv, but this would put the cops family at risk from say drug dealers he has been fooling). In the case of uniformed cops, however, there shouldn't be an issue. This isn't a problem with the law so much as it is a problem of the officer him/her-self.

      Cops need to be educated better.

      Taking pictures of classified material is a big no-no and I agree with this. Too many people think their right to information (which really boils down to "I want to know the secret, how come you won't tell me the secret, it's like when my sister never told me her secret and i had to steal her diary") is above national security. Sorry - no dice. I understand the need to make sure we are not screwing our people over (e.g. kidnapping innocent civilians and killing them) but releasing a secret agents identity, which not only puts their lives at great risk, but prevents us from getting information from global terrorists is just dumb.

      Anyhow I am derailing myself. If you can catch a picture of this eye-in-the-sky I think you will be OK and not get prosecuted.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    31. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Caldrak · · Score: 1

      Need to factor in the cost of a second plane and equipment as well. To have 24/7 surveillance, as one plane lands the other must be taking off.

    32. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by kheldan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Fear" being the operative word in all these conversations. We're becoming a world ruled by fear, and it's BULLSHIT.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    33. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      What kind of fuel are we talking about?

      Regular gasoline in the SW looks like its going for approx $2.40 to $3.00, depending on where you are and where you get it. Diesel is typically more, but generally $0.40 or so more. Where did $5.25 come from?

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    34. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, all of those empty camera boxes deterring us from committing crimes, what a horrible idea!

    35. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by K8Fan · · Score: 1

      It sounds like Rutan has found a new use for the Proteus plane he built for Raytheon for the "Angel Halo" system to supply high-speed, low latency bandwidth for a metropolitan area by flying in circles at 60,000 feet. From the Scaled Composites web page about it:

      Proteus is a twin turbofan high altitude multi mission aircraft powered by Williams International FJ44-2E engines. It is designed to carry payloads in the 2000-pound class to altitudes above 60,000 feet and remain on station up to 14 hours.

      The original plan proposed 3 aircraft on 8 hour shifts. There would be a large AWACS style dish underneath (payload up to one ton) with the jet engines supplying 14 KVA of electricity.

      Sounds like they may still deploy the system, with a secondary revenue stream with a camera. The question for Slashdot readers is: would you be so freaked out if the city was going to use the same plane to supply free gigibit wireless?

      --
      "How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
    36. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by sckeener · · Score: 1

      That said, I think that constant surveillance will be the end of our republic.

      Its only the end if we can't tolerate different lifestyles and differing viewpoints. If we can accept their right to do as they please as long as it does not physically harm us, then I think the republic can survive. How likely is that to happen though? Not very likely. All it takes is a crack down on fringe groups...one at a time...

      When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist. Then they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat. Then they came for the trade unionists, I did not protest; I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, I did not speak out; I was not a Jew. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    37. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two words: Av Gas

    38. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by korbin_dallas · · Score: 1

      Two problems with that:
      1. that street criminals think clearly.
      they don't

      2. that street criminals remember that there are cams on.
      see one thing these people never point out is this, after a while everyone forgets about the cams.

      Cams won't stop you from being murdered, it just captures it on disk.

      --
      They Live, We Sleep
    39. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      Thanks.

      I take it Av Gas sells for approx $5.25/gallon?

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    40. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that's obviously because we don't have enough of them yet. Hmmm.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    41. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, the stretch of the 14 freeway that runs through Lancaster has a "speed monitored by aircraft." Being close to Edwards AFB there are always aircraft in the sky--except over the freeway.

    42. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by a_nonamiss · · Score: 1

      And you think half a million dollars is a deal-killer? (Don't forget to include pilot(s) salary, aircraft maintenance, etc.) I live in a small township in Ohio with no income tax, and this could fit into our yearly budget, although it wouldn't be an "easy" fit. I'd imagine a medium sized city with an income tax could easily fit this number into their yearly budget Sure they'd have to give up some useless expenditures such as libraries, cultural activities and city sponsored festivals, but then, giving these things up would be well worth the added security of every citizen being under potentially constant surveillance.

      (That last bit was sarcasm...)

      --
      -Arthur
      Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
    43. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Nice load of strawmen there. No one was ever talking about undercover cops or Valerie Plame.

      Every case referred to above have been "Rodney-King" type incidents. The officers in question know what happened in the Rodney King case, and so took it upon themselves to decide it was illegal to photograph/video tape them. That is wrong. Period.

    44. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably less lately. But it usually runs higher than gas for your car (MoGas).

    45. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by drexlor · · Score: 1

      Unmanned air vehicles bring advantages that manned aircraft cannot repeat.

      They can change operators more easily. Instead of having one pilot up in the air for hours, you can keep fresh minds watching the video as the plane flies its course. These operators will be alert and will be less likely to dose off or miss vital information.

      Video processing software can provide information such as alerts. Say there is an amber alert and the suspect is driving a blue mustang. The turrets onboard can auto-identify and notify operators.

      Also if the vehicle does crash, then there is a lower ground impact and noone was onboard.

      Manned air vehicles for surveillance are obsolete when there is such a convenient alternative.

    46. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      I think the citizens of this town that still care about their privacy should all take turns constantly recording the mayor and his family whenever they are in public. "If he has nothing to hide, why should he care?" /goose meet gander

    47. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "only has to deter people from committing crimes out of fear"

      Is it only me, or does this fit the definition of terrorism? Oh - someone will point out the word "crimes". But, wait. Who, exactly, determines what a crime is? In some countries, a disparaging remark against the ruling family is a crime.

      Yes, we really need this technology. We desperately need it, so that yet another 20% of the population can be criminalized.

      Bill says, "Hey, Joe, are you going to vote to re elect President Butthead?"

      Joe answers, "No, I think I'll vote for Beavis this time."

      Officer Phlegmwad says, "Officer Braindead, go pick up Citizen Joe for processing into our "reeducation" camp, immediately!"

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    48. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      See my post above, in the first thread. I can tell you from my face-to-face arguing with our Ruling Mayor that he is all about fear, via intimidation of anyone he doesn't like.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    49. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by DrVomact · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to mention that its pretty much proven that surveillance equipment does not prevent crime.

      Precisely. The first prerequisite for crime prevention is that the police actually give a rodent's posterior about protecting citizens, instead of getting themselves on TV and beating the PR drums. Heck, my car radio was stolen out of the parking lot where I work. My employer turned over the video—complete with clearly visible license plate of the truck these yahoos were riding in—and nothing has happened. That was a year ago.

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    50. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      It's probably about that right now. It's usually about half-again to double the price of diesel or auto gas.

      As to the Lancaster city budget, allowing for the usual gov't overruns this will cost around a million dollars a year. I'd like to know just where the hell we're going to get the money for this nonsense, when we can't pay for street maintenance and are presently building a HUGE expansion on the city sewage treatment plant.

      (Yes, I live there.)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    51. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They should do thier top secret testing within five walls if they want any expectation of privacy.

    52. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      MOD PARENT UP!!!

      Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks paranoia is replacing football and beer as the national pasttime, sigh.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    53. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Julien+Brub · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the whole idea is just to cut the projects risk, like new technology and gas pricing, and implant it asap before regulations problems arise. They'll probably find way to cut pricing afterward. Once it's started, it's harder to stop that if the project is in development.

      --
      "I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance." Isaac Asimov
    54. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Dr.+Impossible+II · · Score: 1

      Is it only me, or does this fit the definition of terrorism?

      It's just you. Fear of punishment has always been used to deter crime.

      Oh - someone will point out the word "crimes". But, wait. Who, exactly, determines what a crime is? In some countries, a disparaging remark against the ruling family is a crime.

      The authorities determine what a crime is. Some countries may have stupid laws like being arrested for disparaging the ruling family, but what does that have to do with the US? It's not like an eye in the sky can catch people making disparaging remarks anyway.

      I don't see how deploying this technology will "criminalize" 20% of the population, unless of course you mean that there will be a 20% increase in capturing criminals, which would only be a good thing.

    55. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      Well in London they have Cameras everywhere and they actually look at them, however the crime rate has not gone down. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7384843.stm

      No, they don't actually look at them:

      ... officers who often avoided trawling through CCTV images "because it's hard work"

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    56. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the test was in a Cessna Caravan. That's hardly an "average" Cessna; it's a 14-passenger, 8750 pound (that's just shy of 4000 kilograms for everyone outside of the U.S.), 675 H.P. kerosene burner. It's a jet that has a prop attached to the pointy end :)

      According to airnav.com, Jet-A at Lancaster, CA is $3.92 per gallon. The Caravan burns approximately 55 gallons per hour (there's a lot more to it in reality, but that's a close enough approximation for now). Soooo...:

      $3.92 x 55 = $215.60/hour
      $215.60 x 24 = $5174.40/day
      $5174.40 x 365 = $1,888,656/year

      So, just shy of $2M per year, not including the airplane itself, the pilot costs, or maintenance (which any airplane owner will tell you makes fuel costs look trivial, although the PT6-A engine is relatively bulletproof).

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    57. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Except the Caravan, as used in the demo, burns Jet-A, not av-gas.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    58. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

      Taking pictures of classified material is a big no-no and I agree with this.

      Which universal constant explains this as absolute?

      We are not people housed by a government, we are people who -are- the government. There is no naturally granted power that some people who claim to protect us deserve some form of technology or strategic superiourity the rest of Humanity is not allowed to have.

      In the deepest, most meaningful sense of reality, there is no right and wrong, there is no yes-yes and no-no, there is only what someone is capable of doing and what other people can do to stop them.

      Don't let them control your thoughts.

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    59. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget labor ... at least four pilots to cover a full day, at say $50,000/yr. (hmmm, maybe some would work at half that, just to build time for an airline job)

      Also, airplanes usually have a "wet" rate that includes fuel & a maintenance allowance. Even the smallest Cessna 150 is over $50/hour wet now, I think.

    60. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by soren202 · · Score: 1

      Its only the end if we can't tolerate different lifestyles and differing viewpoints.

      Dammit, it's the end of the republic.

    61. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Not sure why your post would be marked insightful since it is pure speculation.

      No, it's happened. Not sure why your post would be marked insightful since it is wrong...

      There are plenty of known cases of police harassing photographers in public in the UK. A quick Google finds:

      http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/27/pretend-cops-bully-v.html
      http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/18/uk-police-seize-amat.html
      http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/22/police-warn-uk-man-t.html
      http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/17/uk-cop-war-on-terror.html
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/photographers-criminalised-as-police-abuse-antiterror-laws-1228149.html
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7888301.stm
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/12/photographers-anti-terror-laws

      I've also experienced this first hand - I was taking a photograph, when suddenly an undercover policeman revealed himself to me, telling me I wasn't allowed to take photos without someone's permission, and demanding I delete the photo.

      The London police have always been running a scaremongering advertising campaign against photographers:

      http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/04/london-cops-declare.html

      There are valid concerns with top secret items and the gov't not wanting you to take pictures of them.

      Ir's not top secret if it's in public, and you're only taking a photo of what people can see in public with their own eyes! According to your original post, even material that can only be visible from the air is fair game.

      Moreover, even if your argument is true, then you've still lost, as it means that your original assertion of "There is no expectation of privacy when you leave the protection of a building" isn't true in the first place. So which is it? Or are you conceding my point that buildings have more rights to privacy in public than people do? (Although note, my links do not just refer to buildings - people have been hassled for taking photos of police officers.)

      For example if the gov't came out with a new plane that had some new, awesome and secret technology it makes sense they don't want you taking a picture of it.

      Who cares what they want? I don't want to have a plane or CCTV taking photos of me all the time. But according to you, there's no expectation of privacy in a public place, when I want it or not. So if the Government wheels its so-called "secret" plane into public, then what it wants is irrelevant.

    62. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Hamoohead · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps this type of shit would qualify as an example of the violation of our freedom to take pictures of anything we want.

      When the gov't wants to take pictures of you, the claim is always that there is no expecation of privacy in public. But if a private citizen wants to take a picture of something in public that the "powers that be" decide they shouldn't, some poor bastard gets arrested.

      Military bases are one thing. When the military is working on a top secret project, they go to great lengths to prevent folks from taking pictures by secluding those projects, or picking remote areas for testing that are inaccesible by the public. This, I understand. You wouldn't want your defenses thwarted by potential enemies before you have a chance to use them. But this whole idea of "we can take pictures of anything we want, but you can't or face the consequences" boils down to a "do as I say and not as I do" mentality that undermines the very fabric of our society and sets up what amounts to nothing less than Orwellian politics.

      Perhaps Corey Doctorow wasn't too far off the mark!

      --
      "If your parents never had children, chances are you wonât either." -Dick Cavett
    63. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Rather narrow sighted, aren't we? As well as short sighted. Perhaps you missed the recent articles about technology being used in Iran to publicize the demonstrations. And, you missed the articles about government pulling the plug on most of the population's means of communication with the outside world.

      Let's add two and two here. Today, some wannabe Gestapo chief in California puts a camera into the sky, tomorrow, there will be another over Tienenman square - some more hovering over the DMZ in Korea - the list goes on and on.

      But, never mind. In each case, the authorities will have determined who the criminals are. Nothing to worry about. It's a good thing, after all.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    64. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Top secret my ass. Where's your brown shirt.

    65. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Dr.+Impossible · · Score: 1

      Nefarious governments oppressing their citizens using technology, news at 11. What does that have to do with police using aerial surveillance in the US?

      I don't see why this is supposed to be a problem anyway. The police already has patrols on the ground, so why can't they have them in the air?

    66. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by ormondotvos · · Score: 1

      You're still looking FORWARD to the end of the Republic?

    67. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Sweet Jesus. Do you read, or do you just spam to get your view across? I'll try one more time. The technology that OUR government puts into use TODAY will be in use by OTHER governments TOMORROW. In fact, American corporations have been directly linked to the technology used in Iran to suppress the opposition's ability to "get the word out". Can you not put two and two together, or follow a sequence of events?

      As for the police in this country, the lazy bastards already have to much power. If they got off their asses and INVESTIGATED crimes, like their predecessors did 50 years ago, they wouldn't need a freaking airplane. Instead, you find the police forces out drumming up (extorting) revenues on the highway. I say, get the cops out of their cars, and onto the streets. They don't need an airplane, or a camera. They need to get into the 'hood, and get to know people.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    68. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Dr.+Impossible · · Score: 1

      The technology that OUR government puts into use TODAY will be in use by OTHER governments TOMORROW.

      This applies to virtually any technology. Unless you want to halt all technological process, I don't see what can be done about this.

      In fact, American corporations have been directly linked to the technology used in Iran to suppress the opposition's ability to "get the word out". Can you not put two and two together, or follow a sequence of events?

      American companies selling equipment to countries like Iran with the full knowledge that they will be used to oppress people is a different and unrelated matter.

      As for the police in this country, the lazy bastards already have to much power. If they got off their asses and INVESTIGATED crimes, like their predecessors did 50 years ago, they wouldn't need a freaking airplane. Instead, you find the police forces out drumming up (extorting) revenues on the highway. I say, get the cops out of their cars, and onto the streets. They don't need an airplane, or a camera. They need to get into the 'hood, and get to know people.

      Of course they should do actual policework as much as possible, but I don't see how that's mutually exclusive with having an eye in the sky. Police UAVs (not that they're deploying UAVs in this case) would be very, very useful.

    69. Re:Whoa, they invented the maintenance-free plane? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      So it works just like the Doomsday device that Dr. Strangelove told us about?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  4. i for one by nimbius · · Score: 1

    welcome our new all seeing, all knowing skyball overlord and hope it resembles the comforting familiarity of "the walking eye"

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:i for one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      welcome our new all seeing, all knowing skyball overlord and hope it resembles the comforting familiarity of "the walking eye"

      (And from a different AC, here's a more recent cultural reference.)

      Judas Priest did it 27 years ago.

      Up here in space, I'm looking down on you,
      My lasers trace - everything you do.
      You think you've private lives, you've nothing of the kind,
      There is no true escape, I'm watching all the time,

      I'm made of metal,
      My circuits gleam,
      I am perpetual,
      I keep the country clean...

      - Electric Eye, 1982's Screaming for Vengeance

      My generation's adolescent dystopian cybermetal fantasies are now the daily news. Don't even get me started on how about 2/3 of the Max Headroom episodes have also become nonfiction.

  5. It was a matter of time. by techwrench · · Score: 1

    It was a matter of time before this technology trickled down to Law Enforcement.

    --
    It's You and I against the World... When do we attack?
    1. Re:It was a matter of time. by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just remember what else trickled down. Drone aircraft for military use were originally unarmed, observation only craft. When they started mounting Hellfires and 25 mm cannon, there were a few debates about the legal niceties, but it basically just happened.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  6. And criminals... by radtea · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...never do anything stupid, so the Mayor pointing out "It would be stupid to commit a crime" is a really excellent example of how compelling the case is for using this sort of surveillance technology.

    If politicians and police were honest about this they'd be doing a controlled experiment on these deployments, putting out these systems in ways that varied both in space and time that allowed them to determine whether these things had any effect on quality of life amongst the citizens, which is the metric that matters.

    Instead, they are content to make stuff up, and the average person is so relentlessly anti-empirical that they have no idea what they are missing.

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    1. Re:And criminals... by WindowlessView · · Score: 5, Insightful

      so the Mayor pointing out "It would be stupid to commit a crime"

      If this is true, then why are government officials so reluctant to have their own activities monitored? Why do law enforcement get so edgy about being filmed? Why are cameras not allowed in most court rooms? Why aren't public officials monitored all day long? It just stops crime, after all.

      --
      Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
    2. Re:And criminals... by nyctopterus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I get your point--especially about law enforcement, but you need to recognise than "government" isn't a monolith. Many government officials and employees don't want the crazy surveillance of other people either.

    3. Re:And criminals... by hacker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If this is true, then why are government officials so reluctant to have their own activities monitored? Why do law enforcement get so edgy about being filmed? Why are cameras not allowed in most court rooms? Why aren't public officials monitored all day long? It just stops crime, after all.

      You bring up a very interesting point. What if the flying-camera-drone catches some police abuse on civilians, or some other egregious violation of human or civil rights? Do we, as civilians, have the right to request the footage of that incident at that time? After all OUR money paid for this plan, the pilot's salary, the camera, the fuel and everything else related to putting that object in the air. Does the FOIA cover this too?

    4. Re:And criminals... by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What if the flying-camera-drone catches some police abuse on civilians, or some other egregious violation of human or civil rights? Do we, as civilians, have the right to request the footage of that incident at that time?

      Oh, you certainly have all the right in the world to request the footage of the incident, which will do you a whole lot of good if the tape has been "misplaced" or just doesn't exist because the camera had a "glitch" just when it happened. *winkwink*

    5. Re:And criminals... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      Why do law enforcement get so edgy about being filmed? Why are cameras not allowed in most court rooms? Why aren't public officials monitored all day long? It just stops crime, after all.

      its time to start a new movement.

      repeat after me:

      no more double standards!

      for each and every law, it must first be tested on public officials and those who are usually above the law. there must be no double-standard. if the citizenry is to be surveiled, the 'watchers' must first be. they must be first so we can see if this 'great idea' works.

      if they object, well, it would end there and no citizen needs to have his rights trampled on.

      NO MORE DOUBLE STANDARDS.

      every law must apply (perhaps even stronger?) to public servants and officials.

      otherwise, you know you are being taken advantage of.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    6. Re:And criminals... by samcan · · Score: 1

      The thing is, privacy is something that's come to be expected by government officials. Look at the convention where they hashed out the Constitution, back in 1787. They ordered the meetings closed, and the windows locked, so that no one could see or hear what they were doing. The delegates were forbidden to leak details to the public. Remember this was also in Philadelphia, in the summer!

    7. Re:And criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember this was also in Philadelphia, in the summer!

      Damn Ben Franklin and his portable window air conditioner!

    8. Re:And criminals... by stim · · Score: 1

      mod parent up!

      --
      Browse at -1 to keep an eye out for abuses.
    9. Re:And criminals... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I agree. Why would they object? If they're not hiding anything, they've got nothing to fear from constant surveillance. (Said with a huge dose of sarcasm as that's the exact justification given to put normal citizens under constant surveillance.)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    10. Re:And criminals... by Psyborgue · · Score: 1

      Law enforcement have no expectation of privacy. I have recorded incidents with the police in the past covertly and would encourage anybody else to do the same, especially when protesting or otherwise doing something that is likely to go against the local law enforcement grain.

    11. Re:And criminals... by Psyborgue · · Score: 1

      I.E. it's up to the citizens, not the govt, to make sure their public servants are behaving.

    12. Re:And criminals... by juan2074 · · Score: 1

      In at least two cases, the tape from the in-police-car camera was "erased", and so could not be used as evidence in court. In both cases, the tape could have helped the defendants get acquittals.

    13. Re:And criminals... by asynchronous13 · · Score: 1

      so the Mayor pointing out "It would be stupid to commit a crime"

      If this is true, then why are government officials so reluctant to have their own activities monitored? Why do law enforcement get so edgy about being filmed? Why are cameras not allowed in most court rooms? Why aren't public officials monitored all day long? It just stops crime, after all.

      Also ridiculous is that video is worthless without follow through. My bicycle was stolen FROM THE COURTHOUSE when I had to go for jury duty. Sure enough, the whole thing was caught on video. Guy walks up, cuts the locks and wanders off with five bikes (one at a time). The cops watch the video a few times, "Yup, this guy stole your bike. Nothing we can do, really". I fill out a form, and precisely nothing else happens. Hooray for security cameras.

    14. Re:And criminals... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      What if the flying-camera-drone catches some police abuse on civilians, or some other egregious violation of human or civil rights? Do we, as civilians, have the right to request the footage of that incident at that time?

      I would wonder if we had the right to request the footage even if there was no such violation. As you said, taxpayers paid for the thing, and the whole argument as to why the government should be allowed to use these sorts of things always boils down to, "Well you're outside, so you have no expectation of privacy. And besides, if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide!"

      If there's really nothing to hide and no expectation of privacy, then shouldn't we all be given the footage to analyze to our heart's content? If such a thing were allowed, would the same people support it?

    15. Re:And criminals... by Eye+Gee · · Score: 1

      I get your point--especially about law enforcement, but you need to recognise than "government" isn't a monolith. Many government officials and employees don't want the crazy surveillance of other people either.

      So they didn't enter government office to gain power? They must feel so lonely ..

  7. bad idea + bad idea by RingDev · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The camera is an example of technology developed for and used by the military making a transition to civilian applications, Rutan said."

    When you have the Military controling civilian security, the civilians become the enemy. This would normally just be a gross overstepping of the government, but to use it as a "transition" for EASing military is just crazy. Things are different in the Military. The rules, norms and expectations are completely different. You can't just take an MP out of the fleet, give him a badge and a gun, and expect him to take a squad car around the block with out incident.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    1. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      When I was on guard duty in the Marine Corps, I was given the following instructions:

      If you see someone attempting a crime, or entering a secure area, you will give ONE and ONLY one order to halt.

      If the individual does not halt, you will fire one warning shot, directly at center of mass.

      If the warning shot does not cause the person to halt, you will fire at him until he halts.

      For unarmed posts, they told you to call a "react" if you saw anything out of the ordinary. What's a react, you say? When you call a react, the guard shack hands everyone currently on duty an M-16 and a loaded magazine, they all pile into a humvee and haul ass to your location, then they all jump out, aim, and give the order to halt.

      Disobey the order, and they ALL fire a warning shot.

      I'm not exaggerating, either. There's a reason nobody screws around on a Marine Corps base.

    2. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      I know there are plenty of examples throughout history where the military has quelled it's own populace, but I would like to think that US troops would hopefully be above that. I never understood this mentality, the one where the people you're protecting aboard are all the sudden worthless and you should beat the crap out of them, or worse, slaughter them. I'm sure someone has researched it fully, but honestly, I don't get it.

      I served for 5 years in the Marine Corps, and obviously I was never faced with this situation, but I would hope that I would see through the B.S. and refuse unlawful orders that asked me to harm the civilian populace. (defending yourself from attack is another situation though.)

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    3. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      I know there are plenty of examples throughout history where the military has quelled it's own populace, but I would like to think that US troops would hopefully be above that.

      In most of these examples, the populace probably also thought that their troops were above that, or they wouldn't have done things that required them to be quelled.

    4. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This tech, like many before it, is moving from military to civil. It is not controlled by the military.

    5. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I know. That's why I said "I would like to think" instead of something else.

      You never know.

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    6. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Informative

      When you have the Military controling civilian security, the civilians become the enemy...You can't just take an MP out of the fleet, give him a badge and a gun, and expect him to take a squad car around the block with out incident.

      We've been militarizing ordinary police work for the past few decades, since the Reagan era. It's part of the general trend of the militarization of society pushed by authoritarian neoconservatives.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    7. Re:bad idea + bad idea by mspohr · · Score: 1

      US soldiers are not above firing on US citizens. One well known incident is known as 'Kent State'... there are others.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    8. Re:bad idea + bad idea by jimbobborg · · Score: 1

      Tienanmen Square comes to mind.

    9. Re:bad idea + bad idea by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      You have an excellent point. Soldiers are trained, on purpose and by simple byproduct of the job, to think of things as us vs. them. You almost WANT things adversarial.

      Imagine yourself having to surveil a group of people... The very fact that you ARE surveiling them means they are bad...otherwise, why do it? (In your mind). How many months go by before you start hoping they do something bad? Wishing? Nit-picking reasons for action? Besides...they are the enemy, so the ends justify the means. This is basically every soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan in an Observation Post, staring at people thru binos and rifle scopes for 12ish hours a day for a year, and I should know.

      Sad state of affairs to do this to your own country. A free country. How can a California city afford this, anyway? IOU: 1 surveillance society.

    10. Re:bad idea + bad idea by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      The difference here is that with voluntary service and relatively easy transitions to and from military life, many of us either are or were the military. GP served in the Marines. I served in the Army. Another guy right above this served in the Marines. Much more so than in many cases, in western democracies the "military" and the "population" are sets with a significant amount of overlap. I would have disobeyed an unlawful order to fire on civilians... He would have disobeyed the order... Most of the people either of us knew would have disobeyed the order (not all of them sadly, there's always the guy that will follow ANY order, but most would have), thus we can reasonably hope that our military is above such things, because we are/were the military.

      Certainly no organization is above corruption, and the military of United States could become a vehicle for tyranny of the people of the United States; it's always possible. As things stand right now though, such an event would either require either an unbelievable world changing disaster or decades of change and transformation in how the military works. Certainly things like Kent State happen (and that was one of the reasons for the federal military making such huge efforts and strides in recent decades to "professionalize" the National Guard), but the use of the military as a generalized force of oppression in the US is not likely in the next decade or two at least.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    11. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      The difference here is that with voluntary service and relatively easy transitions to and from military life, many of us either are or were the military.

      I don't know what point you're trying to make. In fact, you're contradicting yourself - with voluntary service, you'll only have people in the military who want to be there. With compulsory service, pretty much all of the population above a certain age are or have been the military. It's one of the reasons why the country I live in (technically) has compulsory military service - to avoid the formation of a parallel military society.

      I would have disobeyed an unlawful order to fire on civilians... He would have disobeyed the order...

      Possibly. But if just one guy obeyed it, got scared, or had an itchy trigger finger, you'd have ended up in a self-defense situation pretty quickly. What are you going to do if an angry mob wants to bash your head in because someone who was wearing the same uniform as you shot a few people?

      Oh, and in most cases, there is of course no order to fire on civilians, but terrorists, criminal elements, foreign-sponsored agitators, and whatnot.

    12. Re:bad idea + bad idea by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      I know there are plenty of examples throughout history where the military has quelled it's own populace, but I would like to think that US troops would hopefully be above that. I never understood this mentality, the one where the people you're protecting aboard are all the sudden worthless and you should beat the crap out of them, or worse, slaughter them. I'm sure someone has researched it fully, but honestly, I don't get it.

      Ya, ok, American human beings are different than ALL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS BEFORE THEM. Sure, stick your head in the sand all you want.. our Founders fortunately had more forethought. US troops would simply do what Chinese troops did in Tianemen Square; the divisions brought it were from the other side of China, and thus no ties to the locals they were quelling.

      I served for 5 years in the Marine Corps, and obviously I was never faced with this situation, but I would hope that I would see through the B.S. and refuse unlawful orders that asked me to harm the civilian populace. (defending yourself from attack is another situation though.)

      You would simply be arrested by the MPs. Unfortunately, theres already been research showing that if told to hurt someone else by someone in authority, they likely will.

    13. Re:bad idea + bad idea by maxume · · Score: 1

      Yes, the actions of a National Guard unit 40 years ago clearly demonstrate the attitude and training of the present day military.

      I certainly don't want the military carrying out police work, as they certainly are trained in a very different direction, but I'm not sure why we are discussing military control of civilian policing, the article is about technology transfer, not a political reorganization making the military responsible for policing U.S. citizens.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    14. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Psyborgue · · Score: 1

      Go google Stanley Milgram.

    15. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      You didn't read what I wrote did you, before you jumped up on your hickory stump and started flaming.

      That's okay though, when the time comes, you'll be first against the wall. ;P

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    16. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you do know. There's no doubt that in the right situation the US military would perform all of the same atrocities against its own citizens that other countries militaries have in the past. They're just as willing to commit atrocities against their miltary enemies, enemy civilians and allied civilians, so all you need is for the situation to shift so that their citizens become the next enemy. There's no getting around the fact that the US military is composed of human beings too.

    17. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      I would like to think that US troops would hopefully be above that

      Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
      We're finally on our own.
      This summer I hear the drumming,
      Four dead in Ohio.

      Gotta get down to it
      Soldiers are gunning us down
      Should have been done long ago.
      What if you knew her
      And found her dead on the ground
      How can you run when you know?

      Gotta get down to it
      Soldiers are gunning us down
      Should have been done long ago.
      What if you knew her
      And found her dead on the ground
      How can you run when you know?

      Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
      We're finally on our own.
      This summer I hear the drumming,
      Four dead in Ohio.

      -- Neil Young

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    18. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Erikderzweite · · Score: 1

      And you guys have called USSR the Empire of Evil...
      In Soviet (and now Russian) army guards have to do the first shot above the head after two warnings.

      Granted, no law specifies how fast the warnings can be issued and "above the head" can easily be one millimeter above said head, but still...

    19. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Erikderzweite · · Score: 1

      > The difference here is that with voluntary service and relatively easy transitions to and from military life, many of us either are or were the military.

      Voluntary service didn't stop Abu Graib though. Besides, there are problems with such service too: remember how US army almost run out of volunteers when it got too dangerous? Who went to the army then? Lower classes, unemployed, former(?) gang members (yes, sometimes recruiters told them to be quiet about their past) etc. Now it got better with economic meltdown and such, but there were times where recruiters would pick up and enlist any human being who didn't run away from them.

      With compulsory service you at least have a better slice of a society and have enough recruits to be able to filter out criminals, mentally unstable and so on.

    20. Re:bad idea + bad idea by DrVomact · · Score: 1

      The difference here is that with voluntary service and relatively easy transitions to and from military life, many of us either are or were the military.

      Your idea of the effect of "voluntary service" on the "citizen-soldier" character of the U.S. Army seems a bit skewed. The situation you describe pertains much more to the non-volunteer draft Army of the past, not to today's mercenary...ah I mean "all-volunteer" force. The draftee Army of the 60s was indeed a cross-section of American male youths, and could not have been relied on to serve as an instrument of tyrannical oppression by the government of its own citizens. Indeed, they were notoriously unreliable in oppressing the citizens of a foreign nation (Vietnam). Why do you think the system was changed?

      I speak, incidentally, from personal experience. I fought at Berkeley. Despite the events at Kent State, we were usually relieved to see the National Guard march in, as they were much less brutal and likely to shoot than some of the police forces we faced (e.g. those notorious thugs, the Alameda County Sherrif's Deputies who did fire on non-violent protesters).

      Sometimes, the naivete of the Guards was touching. We took to flying kites above our assembly areas to prevent helicopters from flying in and gassing us. One day, a chopper actually landed, a very nice captain emerged who asked us politely to please stop flying those kites, as they were a navigational hazard. We replied with equal courtesy that perhaps he would like to borrow a kite and fly it.

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    21. Re:bad idea + bad idea by moortak · · Score: 1

      We already know that US military troops will kill civilians under the right circumstances. Kent State University & Jackson State proved that 39 years ago. Given the right circumstances any group of human beings can commit acts that would be unthinkable for them in normal circumstances.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    22. Re:bad idea + bad idea by ksheff · · Score: 1

      How can a California city afford this, anyway?

      probably a grant from DHS, possibly from spring 2009's PorkZilla.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    23. Re:bad idea + bad idea by jeffliott · · Score: 1

      Things ARE different in the military. Additional prosecution for improper, unlawful, or generally shameful behavior. The culture is very professional, and the discipline unmatched in the civilian world. Additionally, most wacko's are filtered through the insane training processes and strict culture. I don't think their role should ever extend to policing the country, but as a veteran, I'd trust an MP over a state/federal/local cop any day in any situation. I don't know how much this says, but the USAF has core values that read as follows "Integrity first. Service before self. Excellence in all we do." Personally, I think that speaks volumes, especially when the comparable mantra is "Protect and serve."

    24. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's too bad they just didn't drop a few canisters of napalm on the kite flying VC operatives.

    25. Re:bad idea + bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, the problem with THAT is... Where does the warning shot come DOWN?

  8. City of Lancaster? by funkatron · · Score: 4, Funny

    For a moment I thought I knew where that was. Are there any place names America didn't steal?

    --
    "Welcome to our world. We are the wasted youth. And we are the future too." Yes, I know these are stupid lyrics.
    1. Re:City of Lancaster? by Whomp-Ass · · Score: 1

      Off the top of my head I can think of only one: A middling-small-to-medium town in Ohio named Elyria, named after the Ely family. Asiding that, I think they're all rip-offs.

    2. Re:City of Lancaster? by DefenseEngineer · · Score: 1

      Honolulu

    3. Re:City of Lancaster? by laughing_badger · · Score: 1
      Upper Piddle and Lower Piddle are still unique to us in England. Not sure why...

      Also Old Sodbury and Slack Bottom.

      --
      Help children born unable to swallow - www.tofs.org.uk
    4. Re:City of Lancaster? by clickety6 · · Score: 1

      Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
    5. Re:City of Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honolulu

      We didn't steal the place name, we stole the state

    6. Re:City of Lancaster? by martas · · Score: 1

      New York isn't stolen. The British just went back in time and made a city called York to make it seem like it was stolen.

    7. Re:City of Lancaster? by aynoknman · · Score: 1

      For a moment I thought I knew where that was. Are there any place names America didn't steal?

      Probably a case of self-stealing Lancaster, Pennsylvania

      --
      We need a "+1 -- nice sig" moderation.
    8. Re:City of Lancaster? by Deadstick · · Score: 1
      Are there any place names America didn't steal?

      Okahumpka, Florida.

      rj

    9. Re:City of Lancaster? by G-Man · · Score: 1
    10. Re:City of Lancaster? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      It's part of the "special relationship". We get place names, they get the global shadow government.

    11. Re:City of Lancaster? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Yes, New York, New Jersey, those were both named by the British, so it wasn't stealing. Additionally there is Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, etc.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    12. Re:City of Lancaster? by geeper · · Score: 0

      Isn't that in Indiana?

      --
      Error reading device 'Signature'. (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?
    13. Re:City of Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are a country built almost entirely of immigrants. Our culture is just one huge "theft" from quite literally everyone, so these sorts of things are fairly common.

    14. Re:City of Lancaster? by tomzyk · · Score: 1

      Dude, we have stuff from all over the world: people, ideas, religions, languages... why not names too?
      Or did you actually mean to ask if there was any LAND we didn't steal? XD

      --
      Karma: NaN
    15. Re:City of Lancaster? by pentalive · · Score: 1

      Steal is such an ugly word, We imitate, borrow, emulate.

      You know as is imitation is the best compliment.

    16. Re:City of Lancaster? by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 1

      Are there any place names America didn't steal?

      Lizard Lick, NC

      No, I'm not kidding.

    17. Re:City of Lancaster? by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      I think Ho-Ho-Kus (NJ) is unique :)
      IIRC it's also the only double hyphenated city-name in the U.S.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    18. Re:City of Lancaster? by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      There are a number of places named after the tribes who originally inhabited the area. So the name isn't stolen in the sense of copied from some other place with the same name, though it would still be fairly easy to argue that the name is stolen in a different sense.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    19. Re:City of Lancaster? by SlashBugs · · Score: 1

      Copying isn't theft! At worst, it's copyright infringement. If the original city of Lancaster wants to profit from its name it should be touring the world, engaging with its fans and charging money for gigs. You're clearly just a shill for the CIAA (Cartographic Industry Association of Angles and saxons)

    20. Re:City of Lancaster? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      Don't look now, but we stole your language, too.

      "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
      -- James D. Nicoll

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    21. Re:City of Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea Minnesota comes from an American word.

      Native american, that is... so I guess no, we stole em all.

    22. Re:City of Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Muskogee, Oklahoma - Tahlequah, Oklahoma - Nowata, Oklahoma

      Pretty sure that there are a lot of towns in Oklahoma that are not named after English places...

    23. Re:City of Lancaster? by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 1

      Don't say that, don't even type it! Do you want to summon Him back from the unholy depths of interstellar space to which He was banished by the Elder Gods, eons before life arose upon Earth?

    24. Re:City of Lancaster? by jipn4 · · Score: 1

      The name "Lancaster" (PA) is pre-revolutionary, so blame the British for it. Other US cities were often named after it.

      And if it's any consolations, many US cities chose native American names, French names, or entirely new names out of opposition to British rule and oppression.

    25. Re:City of Lancaster? by ksheff · · Score: 1

      Paragould?

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    26. Re:City of Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steal? What, you don't have yours any more?

    27. Re:City of Lancaster? by smclean · · Score: 1

      Those who dislike the Antelope Valley (consisting mostly of Palmdale and Lancaster) often call them Palmcaster and Landscatter.

      --

      "'Yrch!' said Legolas, falling into his own tongue."

  9. Worst idea ever by moogied · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Criminals rarely think "Gee... I sure hope no one sees me do this!" they think "Gee... I sure hope I can get the hell away from the scene before a cop gets me.". Having something floating around would require several things to actually work:

    1. Someone to know the crime is happening and thus record it, send cops over, and prevent it.
    2. No blind spots(good luck on a roaming platform. Last I checked, buildings still are 3d and thus will cause blind spots.
    3. The criminals not to take the most basic of all precautions to hide there identity(sky masks aren't exactly hard to make or buy.).

    So, in conclusion, it looks like some dumb ass company built this device and decided to market it to whatever sucker they could find. World keeps on turning.

    --
    So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."
    1. Re:Worst idea ever by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      > So, in conclusion, it looks like some dumb ass company built this device and decided to market it to whatever sucker
      > they could find. World keeps on turning.

      And, once again, the government are the suckers. There is little incentive for them not to be, it only costs them our money.

      I actually emailed the guy working on the "Ferret" the robot to sit in cargo containers and look for drugs/explosives etc.

      You know he never had considered the possibility that such a sensitive detector would have a lot of false positives because... packages packaged by drug users are shipped far more often than packages of drugs. But hey, when someone asks you to make a robot to do X, how many engineers will step back and ask "Are you SURE X is what you want to do?"

      -Steve

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    2. Re:Worst idea ever by gnupun · · Score: 1

      Screw the criminals, who's going to compensate the law-abiding public for their loss of privacy? The loss of privacy of several hundred thousand citizens vs capturing 10 pickpockets and 5 thugs does not seem fair. Loss of privacy --> loss of freedom --> modern slavery.

    3. Re:Worst idea ever by j_166 · · Score: 1

      "But hey, when someone asks you to make a robot to do X, how many engineers will step back and ask "Are you SURE X is what you want to do?""

      Only the really good ones.

    4. Re:Worst idea ever by dzfoo · · Score: 2, Funny

      >> But hey, when someone asks you to make a robot to do X, how many engineers will step back and ask "Are you SURE X is what you want to do?"

      I'll go out on a limb and say, the answer is Y engineers.

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    5. Re:Worst idea ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoever rated this overrated needs to get off there moderator high-horse. It contains valid points and serious logical flaws in the entire plan. If thats not insightful then you can fuck off.

    6. Re:Worst idea ever by brkello · · Score: 1

      I am curious, where may I purchase these "sky masks" that you speak of? They sound amazing.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    7. Re:Worst idea ever by jolson74 · · Score: 1

      Now *THAT* is funny... if only I had mod points.

    8. Re:Worst idea ever by Psychotic_Wrath · · Score: 1

      sky masks aren't exactly hard to make or buy.

      You could have just said tinfoil hat.

      --

      Doctors do Massage in Longview WA now, who knew?
    9. Re:Worst idea ever by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Clearly it should be modded down, clearly the answer should be in terms of X.
      Simply defining Y as the number of engineers only sets up the answer, it isn't the answer.

      -Steve

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  10. Agreed. by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wholeheartedly agree. On the condition that the loop includes a trip above the Mayor's house and that all video feeds are released to the public.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:Agreed. by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      On the condition that the loop includes a trip above the Mayor's house and that all video feeds are released to the public.

      Even if it doesn't, I'm sure some concerned citizen(s) could implement some round-the-clock monitoring of him and his family. That way, he will "never know when he is being watched or followed. It would be stupid for him to have a mistress, for his kids to buy drugs, or for any member of his family to do anything that might offend [voting group X]'s sensibilities." It's for the protection of the public--which justifies anything nowadays, or so I hear--and people in power are in a unique position to defraud or embarrass the public.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
  11. Useful big brother or foggy day crime spike ? by what+about · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This surely is big brother watching you.
    How do you know who is the "guard dog" watching ?
    Who is in power is surely willing to keep it and it will use all means available.
    Get ready to long shot videos or images of possibly "strange" situation being broadcastet to destroy a political opponent.
    (Hey, look, your candidate was walking on a notoriously gay road !!!! he was talking to a possible drug dealer !!!!)
    Of course any plausible reason for doing it will be seen as irrelevant.

    Talking about the bad guy, he just needs a mask or a foggy day to have a coverup, not so difficult.

    The end result seems negative in many ways to me, I would rather have more COPS on patrol than a flyng spy on the sky.

    1. Re:Useful big brother or foggy day crime spike ? by sckeener · · Score: 1
      lol...I loved your subject line

      "foggy day crime spike ?"

      The first month I was in an apartment my car was broken into during a thunderstorm. I'm sure everyone thought my car alarm going off was just caused by thunder.

      I'm quite sure if this camera is deployed and the criminals actually take it into consideration, your prediction would come to pass....foggy or rainy day crime spikes.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
  12. Well, well. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'm not really sure that this is a "transition of technology from military to civilian application" as much as it is a militarization of a historically civilian function. Sure, if you look at the org charts, police are not military, nor have they changed much; but if you look at hardware and tactics there does seem to be a trend. The enthusiasm for using SWAT teams in all sorts of crazy places, at considerable peril to those ostensibly being protected and served, random little podunk county sheriffs picking up APCs, now aerial surveillance mechanisms...

    Luckily, the police are not at all confused about their role...

    1. Re:Well, well. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      The enthusiasm for using SWAT teams in all sorts of crazy places,

      Yes. Let's put a paratrooper SWAT team on those planes, for all the crimes than the onboard armament can't handle.

    2. Re:Well, well. by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      One step closer to becoming a banana republic--"special response" in my tiny city looks more like the guy in the right in urban camo and full battle gear, though they do have face masks for that ninja touch. Being outfitted with a shotgun and a helmet wouldn't help you against these ruthless killers.

      Militarized police are actually worse than soldiers since if they don't shoot on sight, they have a strong incentive to imprison you; soldiers on the other hand are happy to see you go if they're not in a killing mood.

  13. I've never been so excited about anything by schwit1 · · Score: 1, Funny

    This politician obviously doesn't get out much.

    1. Re:I've never been so excited about anything by wandazulu · · Score: 1

      They commit all their crimes inside, so spies flying around outside can't see them.

  14. Stupid is as stupid does by NonUniqueNickname · · Score: 1

    It would be stupid to commit a crime.

    It would be stupid to spell Paris with two R's. And Rex Paris is a stupid name, don't you know what happened to the last king in Paris? Stupid's sticking power doesn't come from logic, au contraire, stupid defies logic.

  15. Why Lancaster? by whoda · · Score: 1

    It's a city with a giant Southern Baptist college and a bunch of farmhands.
    Nothing happens there.

    1. Re:Why Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a city with a giant Southern Baptist college and a bunch of farmhands.

      It's a conspiracy by the Baptists to ensure the farmhands aren't dancing.

    2. Re:Why Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They can implement it there with minimal fuss from the public, which means it'll be acceptable in NYC within ten years.

    3. Re:Why Lancaster? by CompMD · · Score: 1

      Its also a hop, skip, and a jump from USAF and NASA facilities at Edwards AFB, and a whole bunch of Lockheed Martin Skunk Works people live there.

    4. Re:Why Lancaster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sheep disagree.

  16. Time to take out the old laser... by selven · · Score: 0

    I wonder how hard it would be to shoot these things out of the sky.

    1. Re:Time to take out the old laser... by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Just start a building or two on fire upwind of where you'll be committing your crime. You could draw the camera's attention off to that area or failing that provide a smokescreen that renders the surveillance useless.

    2. Re:Time to take out the old laser... by The+Last+Gunslinger · · Score: 1

      My thought was lower-tech...a moderate caliber, high-powered rifle would do the job nicely. I'm thinking .30-06, which should work well on traffic enforcement cameras, too.

    3. Re:Time to take out the old laser... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

          IR

  17. Not a very "green" approach by glaese · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it make more sense to use some sort of stationary balloon based platforms? Seems logical to start off that way at least.

  18. Politicians do this shit to look relevant by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

    Politicians do this shit to look relevant. So that at re-election time they can go: "see, see. We are all better off because of what *I* did."

    Meanwhile cities can't even figure how to save money on the boring stuff. (printing double sided, prevent duplication of work, retuning wrongly ordered stuff to vendors, selling instead of trashing old assets...)

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  19. Solution: Move. by quangdog · · Score: 1, Insightful

    When a company does something stupid or draconian, I take my business elsewhere.

    If the city I lived in started doing this, I'd move and take my tax revenue with me (paltry as it may be).

    Interesting sidenote: This morning on the way to work I heard on the radio that California is in even bigger financial trouble now: Banks are no longer honoring the state tax refund IOU's, student grants are no longer being paid, people on all sorts of state-run social welfare programs are no longer receiving the assistance they are used to, etc.

    Why don't we hear of more people fleeing the state in droves? I've never lived in CA, but if I did the decision to move would be a simple one. The state government is bankrupt, and now they want to monitor me from the sky in hi-def all the time.

    1. Re:Solution: Move. by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the city I lived in started doing this, I'd move and take my tax revenue with me (paltry as it may be).

      Why don't we hear of more people fleeing the state in droves? I've never lived in CA, but if I did the decision to move would be a simple one.

      When you move out of your parent's basement, you'll find the world a bit less black and white and that Brave Words (while free and easy to make on the 'net) cost money and are sometimes hard to implement.

    2. Re:Solution: Move. by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Why don't we hear of more people fleeing the state in droves?

      Because all the other states are in equally dire straits.

  20. All of them by AbbyNormal · · Score: 1

    Yep...Lets monitor all 145,074 of them at one time. Oh wait.

    Kinda funny that this concept was first described for a prison.

    Oh well. I sure hope that the residents enjoying paying their taxes for this, considering that a lot of the big banks in CA are not accepting CA IOU's anymore.

    --
    Sig it.
  21. Just because you can doesn't mean you should by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

    Is crime so bad in Lancaster that people are willing to be monitored constantly? Do they really find the expense of operating such a system worthwhile? Is it a better use of funds than giving raises to teachers, improving roads, reducing sales tax, offering a college scholarship program, or any of the countless other good things that could be done with the money?

    Who makes sure this system is used responsibly, and not for the mayor to see what his wife does while he's at work, or to see how often his opponent heads to the local bar?

    1. Re:Just because you can doesn't mean you should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple: let anyone access it.
      You can bet your ass this will cut down MASSIVELY on crime, even petty crimes.
      If anyone can access these systems, the system is fair.

      The only questionable things are of course (ab)use from questionable people, such as stalkers, pedos, etc.
      But this is pretty fucking retarded reason to be perfectly honest, it won't stop them going out with a camera and taking pictures by hand, Skycams can only go so far.
      Out in the back garden naked? You open yourself to being spied on from satellites (as you all know from Google Maps strange sights), or from planes flying over top. Either grow some self-esteem or never go naked again - stop living a double-life.

      I would LOVE a society where this happened, it would actually cut down massively on crimes out in the open, it would make the outside safe(r) again.
      I remember not even needing to close the door all the time, or even LOCK it, these days some crazy fucker could come up in daylight while you are there, sneak in, steal stuff and thats it. (or worse, kill you)
      Parents would feel a bit safer in letting their children have more freedoms because they could easily monitor them via this system.
      Kid has been kidnapped? Oh just watch the history, looks like they got into some van and it drove down the street to a building, send in the troops.
      Yeah, they might be dead, they might have been raped, this system can't protect from that, it isn't the intention of the system either, exact same way that a bullet vest can't stop you from having a bullet lodged into your skull - it is a risk of probabilities as always.
      If humans never took risks, we would probably still be in the stone ages.

      It somewhat reminds me of that advanced species in Stargate SG-1 (forgotten the name, Tolan?), the ones who recorded interactions between people and it was available to anyone.
      This would be the perfect society... one day... one day.

    2. Re:Just because you can doesn't mean you should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I moved to Lancaster a year ago. The there is a local prison on the west side and the upper east side is mostly homes that look so run down, they could easily be crack houses or meth labs. The local paper reports about 10-20 crimes a week on the 'police blotter' section, ranging from theft to breaking and entering, and just last month, two murders, although I think those were down in Palmdale. They are not really centrally located on the upper east side as you might expect, but a lot of crime does occur there.

      The long term locals here appear to be extremely resentful of the way their city has been transformed from a rural home town where everyone knew one another (30-40 years ago) to a sprawling strip mall service oriented city it is today. The defense industry has run this town, as most people are married to or know someone who works at Edwards AFB near by. The mayor, Mr. Parris, appears to have the largest law firm in the area with one major office near the hospital and another across town. He is a smart cookie and knows his interests lie with supporting long time locals employed by the Aerospace industry. His collaboration with Dick Rutan is not surprising, nor is the use of military technology.

      I have observed that the resentment to new people moving here is mostly placed on people from Los Angeles. Blame is usually placed on the L.A. police department for 'sending' all of their criminals, pedophiles, poor, and undesirables here. Whatever that means. I even heard the claim that when the 110 Harbor freeway was constructed in L.A. that the L.A. city council had to use eminent domain to evict people in the freeways path, and as a buyout plan, negotiated relocation packages with homeowners in the run down neighborhoods to move them to Lancaster. I take this with a grain of salt, and know of no actual facts to support this.

      In my opinion, it appears that the houses on the upper east side may have been constructed as base-style housing for lower middle military families and for engineers and technicians working to support the air force base back in the 60s. If that is true, all those families have long since moved out and left their houses for the 'undesirables' from L.A. or the undesirables born and raised here.

      That's what I have observed in the short time I have been here.

    3. Re:Just because you can doesn't mean you should by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Crime rate here is about 3x the national average, but right in line with the rest of California, so that is just a thin excuse. This is about the mayor's power trip, not crime. See my posts above.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  22. Big brother by 7-Vodka · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You never know when you are being watched or followed. It would be stupid to commit a crime.

    When people in positions of authority start talking this way watch out because here comes big brother.

    Fuck, I'm dissapointed in this half-hearted scheme. Why don't you just skip to the endgame and implant every one of your citizens with mood-altering gps tracking chips that transmit constant video and sound feeds of whatever they're seeing and hearing? I'll put money on the table that when the technology for that exists, there will be people in power who want to do it and general public who won't fight it.

    I wish we could just hurry up and split species so that those who don't care can turn into HG Wells-like eloitards.

    On another note, it doesn't matter that it's a plane, other cities like NY already use those and they're attached to blimps. So I'm sorry to tell this silly mayor that he won't be the first.

    --

    Liberty.

  23. Oblig. Judas Priest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
  24. Heat seeking by Synkronos · · Score: 1

    From the linked article: "During the demonstration flight, the system was used to observe a car accident, a city announcement said. The camera detected the collision due to the heat produced by the vehicles, and within seconds focused on the area and provided a clear picture of all vehicles and people in the area."

    Wait, what? So, light a fire somewhere far away from where you're going to commit the crime, and the camera will detect the heat and look away? What are the exact specs of this system anyway?

    --
    Playing poker with a joker and some Uno cards
  25. Prisoner of the state. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Panopticon: The Panopticon is a type of prison building designed by English philosopher and social theorist Jeremy Bentham in 1785. The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell whether they are being watched.

  26. Who votes for idiot politicians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Constantly circling aircraft to carry video camera to fight crime? Isn't this the same California, which is spectacularly bankrupt already?
    Do American voters really want to turn the USA a complete police state? Do they have any idea what are they doing? Why don't they read some books about existing or previous police states before they agree to create one for themselves voluntarily?

  27. In a world where umbrellas are outlawed... by SoVeryTired · · Score: 2, Funny

    only outlaws will have umbrellas.

    --
    Slashdot: news for Apple. Stuff that Apple.
    1. Re:In a world where umbrellas are outlawed... by jDeepbeep · · Score: 3, Insightful

      only outlaws will have umbrellas.

      Relinquish your right to carry an umbrella. After all, if you carry an umbrella, you must have something to hide.

      --
      Reply to That ||
    2. Re:In a world where umbrellas are outlawed... by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      But think of the (wet) children!

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    3. Re:In a world where umbrellas are outlawed... by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      But think of the (wet) children!

      It never rains in southern California.

      What, you didn't know that?

    4. Re:In a world where umbrellas are outlawed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only outlaws will have umbrellas.

      Relinquish your right to carry an umbrella. After all, if you carry an umbrella, you must have something to hide.

      What if it's one of those clear plastic umbrellas? (Hello Kitty decal optional.)

  28. Trying to counter irrational acts, rationally by petes_PoV · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Criminals don't think "oooh here comes the crime fighting plane - I don't think I'll mug that little old lady "

    They either plan around it (unlikely) or commit impulsive acts when the opportunity arises. They also don't always commit their crimes out-doors, or in cloud-free weather. They also don't ever expect to get caught (if they did, that would be a deterrent - it isn't).. So while keeping a plane in the air (and presumably a control room staffed, to watch the spy cameras) and a mechanic on standby to refule it and maintain it, might sound like a good idea - and may even impress the voters the chances of it reducing crime are small.

    Luckily for the mayor, it's impossible to correlate one act of crime prevention with any movement in the crime statistics, so whatever happens (short of someone stealing the plane), he, she or it will be able to call the initiative a success.

    I do have a feeling though, that this plan was not exactly thought out. Any sale to a gullible official - who isn't spending their own cash yet comes out with statements like "I've never been so excited about anything" sounds like exuberance has got the better over common sense. I would expect that the money earmarked for this plan would be far better spent on orthodox police patrols: more officers, more man-hours and maybe even a few public awareness campaigns. Not as sexy, but far more effective.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Trying to counter irrational acts, rationally by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      I can't help but think about all those little domes in the ceiling at my local big box retailer, yet they still have a crapload of theft. Its really not much of a deterrent, it just keeps honest people honest.. (and usually doesn't record the backrooms, where the employees steal stuff left and right)....

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    2. Re:Trying to counter irrational acts, rationally by Reziac · · Score: 1

      My first thought was "I wonder which of the mayor's buddies will get the surveillance contract."

      Rex Parris isn't gullible by any means. But he is one of the most aggressive jerks I've ever encountered in public office, and clearly cares NOTHING for average citizens NOR for our Constitutional rights, which he is perfectly willing to trample in pursuit of his goals -- he wants to be seen as the tough-on-crime mayor who ran the gangs out of Lancaster, and if everyone else suffers in the process, he couldn't care less. See my post in the first thread where I touch on that.

      (Yes, I live here......)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    3. Re:Trying to counter irrational acts, rationally by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      I do have a feeling though, that this plan was not exactly thought out. Any sale to a gullible official - who isn't spending their own cash yet comes out with statements like "I've never been so excited about anything" sounds like exuberance has got the better over common sense. I would expect that the money earmarked for this plan would be far better spent on orthodox police patrols: more officers, more man-hours and maybe even a few public awareness campaigns. Not as sexy, but far more effective.

      Exactly. If this sort of thing worked, they would have been doing it since the 60s. It's not like highly detailed aerial photography is a new thing, and manpower was much cheaper then than it is now.

      This is just some jerk mayor fell for a sales pitch. Some days it's a monorail, other days it's a flying surveillance platform. Hopefully someone with some sense will show up at the next City Council meeting and that's the last we'll hear of it.

    4. Re:Trying to counter irrational acts, rationally by ksheff · · Score: 1

      The UK has tons of CCTV cameras all over the place, but that doesn't stop it from having a violent crime rate of about 2000 per 100,000 people. Hmm...an entire country that's almost as bad as Detroit? Unless they so far as counting profanity laced insults as a violent crime, that's messed up.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  29. Stupid to commit a crime? by bazorg · · Score: 3, Informative
    It takes someone stupid to commit a crime? maybe someone with motivations that are hard to understand... Just yesterday on BBC3 we had interviews with 14-18 year old thugs who were really keen on their "street cred", their "reputation", the robbing and stabbing of other kids who ventured into their post code, and the appeal these activities have when looking for a girlfriend.

    Not one seemed so keen on going to school or on avoiding the police. Actually, going to prison was part of the networking with other thugs and the reputation building. So yes, there could be an investment of millions on cameras that can even see through the £5 hooded clothes but I don't think it will be much of a deterrent.

    1. Re:Stupid to commit a crime? by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Well, quite a lot of kids thinks ASBOs are a somewhat cool badge to get.

      Call gaybos or bender badges instead and see how kids react to them.

      Apologies to, I think, Frankie Boyle

    2. Re:Stupid to commit a crime? by brkello · · Score: 1

      Umm, how did any of those reasons prove that those people aren't stupid? Just because they have motivations (stupid ones at that) doesn't make them intelligent.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    3. Re:Stupid to commit a crime? by juan2074 · · Score: 1

      Maybe they need something like Slashdot for criminals. I can see it now. . .

      Those with the lowest UIDs will be the OGs.

      Everyone tries to get modded up for their criminal escapades.

    4. Re:Stupid to commit a crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It takes someone stupid to commit a crime? maybe someone with motivations that are hard to understand... Just yesterday on BBC3 we had interviews with 14-18 year old thugs who were really keen on their "street cred", their "reputation", the robbing and stabbing of other kids who ventured into their post code, and the appeal these activities have when looking for a girlfriend.

      We need harsher deterents to crime. My solution is in no way socially acceptable, nor is it probably even legal given the absurd level of civil rights criminal still enjoy in many societies, but it would work. Sterilize the criminals, so they don't reproduce: ever.

      Castrate the young lad who thinks it's "cool" to rob, stab, or slash, and can't keep his testosterone under control. A young man may not give a damn about his life or his future, but even *he* wants to keep his balls. A young lady many think crime is great, but the drive to have children is one of the strongest things in most women's lives.

      It would solve so many issues at one stroke: fewer deadbeat dads teaching their criminal behaviour to children they didn't want in the first place, fewer single mothers on child support, and a massive disincentive to reputation building.

      It's hard to imagine some teen thug bragging to his would be girlfriend: "Hey, baby! I've been to JAIL! I've got NO BALLS, and I can't get it up! Oh, yeah! I'm a badass!"

      Then again, people say I'm too harsh on crime. Go figure. :-)
      --
      AC

  30. It should already be by HalAtWork · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "It would be stupid to commit a crime."

    It should already be stupid to commit a crime. This guy seems to think that criminals don't believe laws are logical and beneficial. If they are committing a crime, they have already decided they don't care about that. A lot of crimes ARE stupid and are committed without regard to logic or consequence. This guy seems to think criminals will suddenly start thinking twice.

    Look, you can't PREVENT crimes. Even if you have a camera, you'll only just be watching one already in progress. And if a criminal is worried about the camera, he will probably shoot it down. With an unlicensed weapon, no doubt. Way to go.

    1. Re:It should already be by Ohio+Calvinist · · Score: 1

      As others have stated, this is a measure to catch criminals. If you capture this on video and it aides in a successful prosecution, taking a criminal off the streets, they won't be able to commit more crimes. No one (with any common sense) believes all crime can be stopped (prevented?), but the entire purpose of jail(s) are to function as a deturant (e.g. I don't want to go to jail so I won't engage in behaviours that might land me there) and to separate those who are willing to commit crimes in disregard for the law. Every crime that criminal would have committed if free to do so has been prevented by taking them off the streets.

      This tactic is entirely based on fear that detures and in the event of violation, assists in prosecution. Vice cops have been doing almost the exact same thing with putting "fake" dealers and "fake" hookers on the street. It happens enough and ends up in the news enough that it minimally detures a finite, but difficult to measure population from committing the crime, and catches an additional finite, but easy to measure, and prevents them from doing it again.

      All that being said, as bad as "crimes" are, there are methods of law enforcement that are worse than many crimes, and this is one of them. Red light cameras are another. There is evidence that they cause more accidents, and are only useful by making criminals out of drivers who, by running the yellow, are making the most safe driving decision at the time.

      --
      Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.
    2. Re:It should already be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As with other electronics, its legitimacy will be contested, cases will be protracted until they are no longer relevant, tying everyone up in a costly debate over something that is ultimately a waste of time. Not to mention maintaining the useless device will also be a costly waste of time.

    3. Re:It should already be by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      This guy seems to think that criminals don't believe laws are logical and beneficial

      Many laws aren't. Sodomy laws, laws against gambling, pot, prostitution, laws against blacks and whites marrying, laws against alcohol. Yes, some bad laws have been repealed but many laws are in fact not only not beneficial, but harmful to society and a lot of them HAVEN'T been repealed.

    4. Re:It should already be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed, however, I'm talking theory here, and in theory, the laws that get passed are those which we are supposed to have accepted in the first place. Of course reality is different. These are law officials talking though, and presumably, they would stand by such theory.

  31. California? by sunking2 · · Score: 1

    I guess the whole state isn't on the verge of bankruptcy. Or do they think they can reduce the size of their police force enough to make up the difference?

  32. I actually may like this idea... by sunking2 · · Score: 1

    If it could reduce the number of cops running around with attitudes. In general our police forces have become way too big, and bored cops develope attitudes. Of course this likely won't happen and our taxes will go up to support this.

    1. Re:I actually may like this idea... by mevets · · Score: 1

      Name one technology that has ever reduced the number of law enforcement officials. A few hundred years ago, fish used to jump into the boats. Now they scrape the ocean floor with mesh...

  33. What is it about cities named Lancaster? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    I want to know what it is about cities named Lancaster that leads them to think that monitoring everyone's activities is a good idea? A couple of weeks ago we had a story about Lancaster, Pa having the most cameras per capita monitoring for crime and now we have Lancaster, Ca putting an eye in the sky.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  34. first reference to Orwell by rs232 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live -- did live, from habit that became instinct -- in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized"

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
    1. Re:first reference to Orwell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Orwell was missing one significant piece of information.

      Neither darkness nor distance are a barrier to observation anymore. Even walls do not block some monitoring methods.

      And with the increasingly segregated mentality of America, ie: Lib vs. Con, it is only a matter of time before this observation becomes a tool to use to destroy the character of any perceived opponent.
      From there, it will be used to "keep the population in line" by telling them what they can and cannot do, and enforcing it through increasingly draconian Laws, or public ridicule.

      And then, the killing begins as the creature known as "Society" finally stirs itself from the mezmerization of the boob-tube to realize it's been shackled and raises an alarm, and the gov responds with "overwhelming force".

  35. fallout by zogger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the video feed was open to the public, it wouldn't be long before there would be clips of the mayor's butt crack showing up on youtube, as he bent over to work in his garden, or the city council folks walking their dogs and letting them take a dump on neighbor's lawns, or local fatcat businessmen passed out drunk in their back yards, all the local cop cars on patrol making illegal left turns at stoplights, etc.

    The spy in the sky program would end pronto then.

    1. Re:fallout by professorguy · · Score: 1

      If the video feed was open to the public ... the spy in the sky program would end pronto

      Which is why they won't open it to the public. Turns out what's good for the goose, the gander is not so comfortable with.

  36. East & West Coast Lancasters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    does it strike anyone else as odd that two of the more "big brother" cities in America recently are both named Lancaster (PA & CA)?

    http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/20090706_Plenty_of_cameras_monitor_55_000_Lancaster_residents.html

  37. Orwell was an optimist. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
    except in darkness, every movement scrutinized"

    Or maybe he just didn't anticipate IR cameras.

  38. Privacy? by houghi · · Score: 1

    So now what I do in my lawn is not considered privacy anymore? Great.
    Even though I disagree with people who say "If you are in public, people should be able to film you at all times." I understand their point.

    Now a camera pointing down will be able to see what I am doing in my back garden that has a very high fence around it. What if the camera films at an angle?

    Well, at least people are innocent until proven guilty, but it is best to do your hardest to prove them guilty.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:Privacy? by furby076 · · Score: 1

      So now what I do in my lawn is not considered privacy anymore? Great.

      THis issue has been discussed for years now, and there were court cases about it a few decades ago (helicopter + camera). I may be wrong but I believe the courts ruled that your backyard (even if it has wooden fences) does not enjoy privacy protection from top view cameras, but your home skylight roof does enjoy protection. I may be wrong since i am going from memory of a long time ago.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    2. Re:Privacy? by hacker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, at least people are innocent until proven guilty, but it is best to do your hardest to prove them guilty.

      Here's part of the problem. We should be innocent unless proven guilty, not until proven guilty.

      This fallacy presumes that we're all guilty, and it's just a matter of time until someone catches us. We need to stop referring to it as such.

      • We are not consumers, we are customers
      • We are not innocent until proven guilty, we are innocent unless proven guilty
      • Just because I have nothing to hide, does not mean you have a right to look.

      This whole country is being turned upside-down by very subtle, un-noticed changes in our vernacular. We need to stop that.

    3. Re:Privacy? by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      Actually with the tens of thousands of inane, randomly enforced laws on the books we are all guilty, and it's just a matter of time until someone catches us.

    4. Re:Privacy? by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 1

      Very well said. I've been ranting about 'consumers' vs. 'customers' for years now, and have always felt insulted with being treated like a suspected criminal at airports and border crossings.

    5. Re:Privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theyre pretty fycking obvious if you ask me.

  39. I want to be the guy that points the camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hello sunbathing Megan Foxx!

  40. It's possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I doubt this is all that hard with a conventional military type rifle for this type of aircraft at low altitudes, the tech is old, it is called tracer bullets to help you adjust aim, and you put one say every fourth round in the magazine. Small arms have been used to take down low flying planes for a long time now. Granted, it would never be as effective as a dedicated AA cannon of some type, or a missile, but it has worked in military conflicts all over the planet since planes were first used offensively.

    1. Re:It's possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt tracer bullets would even be necessary. 100 MPH is *not* particularly fast or hard to track. With a decently high Rate of Fire machine pistol, just lead the target and begin shooting a stream of bullets ahead of the plane, and watch the plane fly helplessly into a stream of hot lead. A few are bound to hit, and that's likely all it would take.

      OTOH, while you were doing this the plane may have been digitally streaming live video of you directly to law enforcement HQ. Smile for the camera and our friendly representatives in blue will be with you shortly.

    2. Re:It's possible by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      I doubt this is all that hard with a conventional military type rifle for this type of aircraft at low altitudes, the tech is old, it is called tracer bullets to help you adjust aim, and you put one say every fourth round in the magazine.

      A point you seem to be missing: while tracers will let you see where your fire flies, it ALSO lets everyone within eyesight know exactly where the hostile fire is coming from.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    3. Re:It's possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh gawd! It appears Guy Fawkes just shot down our Sky-Eye!

  41. More crimes will just take place underground... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    ... in buildings, bridges, garage's and so forth, I can see criminals using underground tunnels/sewers/access points more often, and wealthy criminals creating such tunnel networks.

  42. Solar Impulse by an.echte.trilingue · · Score: 1

    The technology for this does not exist yet, but it will very soon. Look at the solar impulse aircraft, for example, that is going to attempt to fly around the world on solar power. It stores up electricity during the day so that it can fly through the night. Combine this thing with UAV technology and you have your 24/7 camera surveillance.

    Another solution that pop into my mind are balloons that are tethered to the ground.

    --
    weirdest thing I ever saw: scientology advertising on slashdot.
  43. It's LANcaster by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    We named our city that because we have so many LAN parties here.

  44. Security Theater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Security theater are actions that make you feel secure, but have no actual affect. In Great Britain they have installed over three million surveillance cameras. Arrests have increased, but the crime rate is still the same.

    The problem we have is not an inability to arrest people. Our problem is that we do not know what to do with people after they are arrested. Arial surveillance. will give companies fat contract and get politicians re-elected, but it will not increase our safety.

  45. Crowbar by lymond01 · · Score: 2, Funny

    As demonstrated by one Gordon Freeman as he fled City 21 during the unrest in the early 2000s, these surveillance drones are particularly susceptible to blunt force attacks. Alternatively, subway tunnels and fast waterborne craft also make it difficult for the drones to follow and/or record.

    If people stopped acting all crazy, this sort of thing wouldn't be suggested in the first place. As usual, it's the group of kids in the corner of the playground who ruin it for the rest of us.

  46. Shoot first, ask later by doishmere · · Score: 1

    Ideally, this wouldn't exist. Less ideally, access to the film would require a court order, but... realistically, the film should be publicly accessible to anyone, anytime, and all records should be destroyed within a certain number of days.

  47. Early start by professorguy · · Score: 1

    such an event would either require ... decades of change and transformation in how the military works

    Good thing they're getting started now. So even though we might not get to, at least we can look forward to our children huddling in bombed out cellar holes scurrying in fear of the US military.

  48. How I read your post by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

    This is OK, because it is just a higher quality version of whats happening already. If it gets any higher quality then that's a problem.

    Infra red is a obvious requirement since all cameras have done in the past, is move crime around. So this instantly pushes even more crime to night, so they add infra-red. Now they can bust into anyones house with grow bulbs on suspicion of marijuana growing, etc, etc.

    I don't have a problem with a camera recording, and definitely like the idea of them chasing down crimes in process with this technology. What I don't want to hear is a power drunk Mayor excited about all the new crimes he can arrest, that weren't causing any harm in the first place. Or about the prospect of wasting this much money improving something already proven to not reduce crime rates.

    1. Re:How I read your post by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      ...so they add infra-red. Now they can bust into anyones house with grow bulbs on suspicion of marijuana growing...

      I hate to be a downer, but DPS (Department of Public Safety, aka State Troopers) in Alaska has already had the ability to do this for over a decade. They have (had?) a Beechcraft Super King Air with IR cameras that they used to track fugitives, even in the woods. A Trooper pilot that I used to know back when I worked at one of the aircraft maintenance shops in Anchorage told me that the IR camera was so sensitive that it could detect a guy hiding in the mud, thinking that the mud was shielding his body heat from the camera (a la Schwartzennager in "Predator"). He said the town of Wasilla was lit up like a Christmas tree on the thing (Wasilla is well-known locally for the quantity of people who enjoy, ummm, shall we say, cultivating their indoors gardens, lol). And like I said, that was a decade ago. I can only imagine the technology has improved since then.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    2. Re:How I read your post by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      not really a downer or news that they use them in a response manner in the USA. I just hate to see societies wasting billions on 24/7 high tech monitoring "solutions" when it would be much better to all to reward good behavior, and spend that money on actual effective, and productive actions like education, improved lighting, maintaining cleaner healthier city's (not building a better bigger prison where no one can hurt anyone, instead of a city where no one wants to hurt anyone.)

  49. stupid to commit a crime by oneTheory · · Score: 1

    Exactly. I don't think people who are about to commit crimes thing about how stupid it might be. Most are not being terribly rational. Who's being stupid now?

  50. Anyone else think of... by Hozen · · Score: 1

    Anyone else think of those flying camera things in Half Life 2??? The ones that fly around and alert the bad guys of your presence. I didn't RTFL, but I get the feeling this technology could be used for more than just recording criminals. I'm sure it could be used to track people and their actions. I realize I'm stepping into major tinfoil hat territory here, but I think it's worth noting that "this is where it starts".

  51. Warning shot: a shot directly at center of mass by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Funny

    Military definition of "warning shot" duly noted 8-|

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  52. And you expect a mayor to obey the same laws? by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    because here in Atlanta when police protecting the mayor scanned the plates of a car visiting her son and found the car stolen the policeman doing got into trouble and the police were prevented from doing future scans.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  53. It's about fear by siyavash · · Score: 1

    When you keep putting fear day in and day out inside peoples' head via propaganda ( which ironically they watch on free will ) then there is no stopping in how survilance stuff they can put around them. People with fear of their own kind will go to great length to strip themselves out of privacy, freedom and liberty.

    You shouldn't be shocked or surprised though. It's nothing new, just history repeating itself.

  54. One word: Evidence by StCredZero · · Score: 1

    If this tool is used in specific conditions, it could have a huge benefit -- video evidence of crimes in progress and more accurate prosecution. I see no problem with the police focusing a camera on a specific location after someone has called 911 and a dispatch has been made. The camera can be pointed in a few seconds, whereas the officers would take minutes to get there.

    Give the authorities as many facts as possible, so their activities are fact-based, and not "soft." DNA testing did this, making criminal justice more accurate as a result. I suspect that dashboard cameras have had the same effect. Also, the behavior of the police would have to improve if they knew they were possibly filmed from above on every call.

    Of course, the problem is one of trust. How do we know that they are not recording all the time? This is what local political activism is all about. Limit the number of cameras. Pass local laws limiting the use to hot pursuit or locations of current dispatch. Remember -- lobbying the locals is relatively cheap and easy. (And if you'd rather not let the police have aerial cameras at all -- lobby for that. Participation is good.)

  55. The Secret History of Lancaster, CA by aquatone282 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I was stationed at Edwards Air Force Base from 2001 - 2003. After the burgs of Rosamond, Mojave and the tragic-comedy of California City, Lancaster-Palmdale was the closest form of civilization to the base - just a 35-mile drive from the back gate!

    While there I formed the theory that Lancaster was used as a checkpoint during the Okie migration of the Great Depression (see "The Grapes of Wrath" for further details). If you were halfway decent-looking, you were allowed to cross the San Gabriel mountains. If you were a freak of nature, you stayed in Lancaster.

    Seriously - I never saw so many ugly people in one place in my life.

    --
    What?
  56. Learn me a book! by Astabon · · Score: 1

    Lancaster is a sprawling desert crap hole 'ex-urb' of LA in the middle of the Antelope Valley and has gotten progressively, socially worse over the years. I should know, I lived there for 10 years. Graduated High School there 20 years ago. What we need to do is invest this surveillance money in education, jobs, training, social services, etc. Keeping your citizens smart, happy, and working is the best way to deter crime, IMHO. Not some spy plane.

  57. A high-tech camera with wings... by macraig · · Score: 1

    ... is of little use unless you know precisely where to point it, eh? Is it also clairvoyant, or can it pick up a "criminal vibe" so that it knows where to zoom in?

    If not, it will not help catch the smart crooks. All it might do is help catch the dumb ones, who are inevitably gonna get nabbed anyway because they're dumb and are in the wrong line of work for dumb people.

  58. Nude Criminals by C0L0PH0N · · Score: 1

    This will bring on nudity amongst criminals. When this technology first is activated, a lot of robberies and muggings that "could" have been caught on camera will be missed because after many boring hours and days, the pilot(s) will start focusing on the occasional naked lady sunbathing (it IS southern California!). Even better will be a nudist colony, or the occasional nude tryst (this thing can see at night, right!). I can see the pilots "sharing" their best shots!

    Then, when the sh*t hits the fan and the public becomes aware of all this peeping, for political reasons, the camera technology will have to be **expensively** upgraded to automatically blank out nude people.

    Then, robbers will catch on, and start plying their trade in the Nude! Come on, you know I'm right!

  59. Alan Parsons Project by gaspyy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am the eye in the sky
    Looking at you
    I can read your mind
    I am the maker of rules
    Dealing with fools
    I can cheat you blind
    And I don't need to see any more
    To know that
    I can read your mind.

    1. Re:Alan Parsons Project by crtreece · · Score: 1

      I'll see your APP Eye in the Sky, and raise you 1 Judas Priest Electric Eye. Up here in space Im looking down on you My lasers trace Everything you do You think you've private lives Think nothing of the kind There is no true escape I'm watching all the time

      --
      file: .signature not found
    2. Re:Alan Parsons Project by crtreece · · Score: 1

      I'll see your APP Eye in the Sky, and raise you 1 Judas Priest Electric Eye.

      Up here in space
      I'm looking down on you
      My lasers trace
      Everything you do

      You think you've private lives
      Think nothing of the kind
      There is no true escape
      I'm watching all the time

      Oh, and whoever thought putting the Preview and Submit buttons right next to each other, suck it.

      --
      file: .signature not found
  60. Lancaster needs the tech by dave562 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If any place in southern California needs military surveillance technology to crack down on crime, its Lancaster. One of the trends that took place in the early 21st century was that large numbers of people from South Central moved out to Lancaster and Palmdale. They were drawn by the affordable housing and the hope for a new start. Unfortunately they took all of their ghetto children and relatives with them, and now Palmdale is nick named Pompton to reflect its characteristic similarities to everything bad about Compton. The tax revenues in those cities are very low and consequently the police departments are small and under funded. It's a good place to be if you're a gangster and a bad place to be if you're just about anyone else.

    When I see people on here decrying surveillance technology, I wonder if they've ever lived in borderline neighborhoods. I live in Long Beach, and it isn't by any means a full fledged, crime ridden neighborhood like Watts, but it has its fair share of property crime and other crimes of opportunity. One of the nicer neighborhoods that I used to live in just put up cameras because the residents were sick of having their cars and homes broken into. The cameras are accessible by the police department. To nobody's surprise, crime has gone down in the neighborhood.

    Its easy to live in the comfort of a place like South Orange County, or any other affluent suburb and moan on internet about the evils of big brother surveillance technology. Where the police already have everything under control and you can safely walk down the street at night, there probably isn't a need for a network of cameras blanketing the city. On the other hand, in places that are borderline, where there aren't enough police to be everywhere and there are good sized populations of convicted criminals on probation and parole, a simple technology like security cameras can make a difference.

    1. Re:Lancaster needs the tech by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I live outside of Lancaster, and I can tell you that this has nothing to do with crime, and everything to do with the mayor's power trip. Parris wants to be seen as the guy who ran the gangs out of Lancaster, and he does NOT care who else he hurts or what Constitutional rights he tramples to accomplish that (and he has said as much in interviews). See my other posts above.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    2. Re:Lancaster needs the tech by dave562 · · Score: 1

      Let me ask you this. Do YOU want to live in Lancaster and hang out with the cholos and the home boys? The tone of your post seems to imply that you prefer that. Of course the reality of the situation at this point is that the gangsters aren't going anywhere. They have just as much right to live there as anyone else. The best you can hope for are some mitigation efforts that keep them in check.

    3. Re:Lancaster needs the tech by Reziac · · Score: 1

      You mean would I rather live with the Crips and Bloods, or with overbearing cops?? with anarchy or with tyranny??

      Fact is the gangs are a trivial part of life in this city, whereas overbearing cops impact not only gangs but also the law-abiding. So if I had to pick one to live with -- I'd pick the gangs.

      And for those not aware, our mayor has already stated in so many words that he has no problem with trampling the rights of law-abiding citizens, if doing so will discourage the gangs.

      This isn't law enforcement, it is tyranny.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    4. Re:Lancaster needs the tech by dave562 · · Score: 1

      Have you personally had problems with cops? Are you targeted by them in any way? I can't speak about Lancaster, but I know in Long Beach the cops here are way too busy dealing with real criminals to be over-bearing and tyrannical toward law abiding citizens. Everyone I know in law enforcement doesn't have the time or inclination to mess with people if they don't have probable cause. Even the patrol officers I know, whose job is to be highly visible and (to a certain extent) in people's faces, would rather be patrolling and responding to calls as opposed to being proactive and looking for problems (ie. "hassling" random people for no reason).

      There are two major groups who cry the loudest about their rights. People like yourself and criminals. Of the two groups, criminals are the loudest. They are the ones who deal with the police on a regular basis. They are the ones constantly trying to game the system and figure out what they can get away with.

      Unless you've personally had problems with police officers causing you inordinate amounts of grief over trivial things, I think you're over reacting. Sure, the mayor may be a prick. He's a politician, what else do you expect? He knows that there is crime in Lancaster, and by appearing tough on crime, he stands a better chance of getting re-elected. His motives may not be completely pure, but he is addressing a real problem in the community.

      What's your alternative for dealing with gang crime?

    5. Re:Lancaster needs the tech by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      A neighborhood watch (preferably armed) along with things like secure garages and barred windows would have been a better solution. A way for people to exercise their freedom, rather than surrender it. Unless there are cannibalistic packs roaming the streets, installing cameras to partially imprison the populace is not worth it.

    6. Re:Lancaster needs the tech by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I tend to agree with you. I'd rather that California (and the nation as a whole) make it easier to exercise our second amendment rights. However, I don't agree with the "camera = imprisonment" mindset. It's jumping at shadows.

      If you're really worried about life and liberty, worry about the central banks. Read some of the things that Woodrow Wilson wrote after the Federal Reserve was created. Cameras on the corners are the least of your worries when your entire life hangs in the balance of the whims of people who control the monetary system, and wage wars for profit and control of resources. Globalization is a bigger threat to your standard of living than cameras on the corners. China using their dollar reserves to buy up foreign resources (like that huge oil field in Iraq that they just purchased with BP) are bigger threats to your well being than some cameras in Lancaster to watch the gangsters.

  61. Bad Assumptions and Bad List by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Well, let's see, so far citizens are unanimously in favor of:
    Automated Speed Cameras
    Red Light Cameras
    Neighborhood Cameras (ala UK)
    Cameras in the classrooms of elementary schools

    No they aren't. Not all of them.

    Show me one study where people are in favor of automated speed or red light cameras. There are none, they are hated - they go up because they are revenue producers and are pushed by the companies that sell them (and collect some of the revenue).

    There's a huge difference between those things, and street cameras or the camera mentioned in the article and that is - no automated actions are taken as a result of these cameras being in operation. I don't care what cameras are out in public, as long as there are humans somewhere in the chain deciding what to do based on what is seen. In reality most these cameras are not even monitored in realtime, they are only brought out of a dormant state as a tool to address a current situation (for the eye in the sky thing it might be a diver fleeing from a traffic stop).

    The red light/speeding cameras just automatically issue fines with no consideration of context or compassion. If a camera mounted on the plane sent down a hellfire missile at someone it thought was doing a drug deal based on AI recognizing a dime bag, I'd have a problem with that too.

    I welcome cameras everywhere because I understand they are just tools, and because given the shaky nature of people's recollections I would rather have the truth recorded than have to be deduced.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Bad Assumptions and Bad List by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Show me one study where people are in favor of automated speed or red light cameras. There are none, they are hated - they go up because they are revenue producers and are pushed by the companies that sell them (and collect some of the revenue)."

      Err...I think you missed the part I had in there about the sarcasm tag...

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:Bad Assumptions and Bad List by blueZ3 · · Score: 1

      While red light cameras aren't universally supported, they're not universally hated, either.

      Near my parent's house, there's an intersection with a turn signal that, as far as I can tell, is run pretty much every time it changes. The left arrow tuns green and ten or twelve cars make it through, then three or four more on the yellow, and then three or four more enter the intersection after it turns red. Seriously, I NEVER sat at that light without seeing a couple of cars run it. About once a month there was an accident there, and about twice a year there was a fatality. A year ago they installed a red light camera and now I've yet to see a car run the light. I still have quite a few friends, family members, and in-laws in that town and they're pretty much unanimously in support of that particular camera.

      Basically, red light cameras are a reaction to the State's inability to enforce the law with its current resources. Revenue enhancement may be a factor in the installation, but in a lot of cases they are a reaction to a serious safety issue.

      --
      Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
  62. Hah! by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    'You never know when you are being watched or followed. It would be stupid to commit a crime. You see it with such detail,'
    London (aka New Panopticon City) crime stats say you are a fool, Mr. Mayor.

  63. Blackmail by Merovign · · Score: 1

    The blackmail possibilities are endless. Not everything embarrassing is illegal, but they can still be used for fundraising!

    Just think of all the budgets that could be balanced. Or, you know, pockets lined.

    It was kind of inevitable, but I'd hoped it would arrive later.

  64. Eye in the sky-with Arnie Pie by yaksha · · Score: 1

    Why not hire Arnie Pie and Kent Brockman of channel 6 news of 'Eye in the Sky' with Arnie Pie fame!

  65. To sum it up... by psydeshow · · Score: 1

    If cameras prevented crime, there would be no such thing as a corrupt politician.

  66. don't forget conservatives by Uberbah · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    We have a center right party, and a crazy party. Democrats have moved to the right, and the right has moved into a mental hospital.

    --Bill Maher

    It's not just companies selling snake oil that's creating these problems, or politicians who don't give a damn about privacy. The third problem is: selfish, short-sighted, self-centered conservatives. You know, the ones always demanding tax cuts and that rates go up by not so much as a dime, so cities, counties, and states are forced to look towards other sources of revenue to pay for basic services.

    Like raising sin taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, and traffic violations.

    So, all you conservatives that hate red light cameras AND vote against any and all taxes, take your rage out on the nearest mirror until you learn that low taxes have high costs.

  67. low taxes have high costs by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't the representatives of my country (US for me too) fscking ASK the constituents if they want these damned things in the first place, rather than listen to the pitch by the private companies operating these systems (red light for sure, I think maybe the speed cameras too) telling them how much revenue they will bring in???

    And how do the people in your area vote on your state and local taxes? Do you only vote for tax cutting politicians and no on any ballot measures to raise sales/property taxes? If the answer is "yes" to either of these questions, you have found the answer for why politicians are so quick to install red light/speed cameras: it's a way to raise revenues without raising taxes.

  68. Fix the Cops First by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    If they spent that time and money making their cops do their jobs better, and commit less of their own crimes (bribery, brutality, neglect), they'd get a more crime reduction, more public safety, more public trust, and for a lot smaller budget.

    They should start with 100% cop surveillance. Every cop gets 100% of their time on-duty (minus their protected bathroom breaks, when their partner logs their removing their badge for the duration) recorded in 360-degree video. Then, instead of typing paperwork, they can just voice-annotate their video records, on fast-forward to the important parts. All the good cops will have easier jobs, especially when sending the videos as evidence instead of testifying in most cases (and seeing their word supported by video). The bad cops will have a harder time. And the police department will still get to play with expensive hi-tech toys, if not quite the science-fiction ones that cost more and do less, while violating our privacy rights.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  69. Alternative Idea by anonymousNR · · Score: 1

    Why don't they invest this money in hiring new cops?
    1. Employment
    2. good Economy
    3. Everybody happy.

    --
    -- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle
  70. At what point...? by okmijnuhb · · Score: 1

    At what point is it better to have some crime? How fucking safe do people need to be? Close cover before striking, and never leave the house without a full face helmet. Big brother all around.

  71. Britan already has this by thegoldenear · · Score: 1

    We already have this in Manchester, England:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/35164707@N07/3516169162/

    As do many British cities.

  72. Gary Numan by cosinezero · · Score: 1

    Oh look, there's a rape machine I'll go outside if it looks the other way; You wouldn't believe the things they do...

  73. Which conservatives would those be? by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

    Low taxes are not a problem for real conservatives because they're also advocating decreased spending and fiscal responsibility as well. The problem is when you advocate spending programs with no way to pay for them - like say a big ass war or two. Those "conservatives" should be shot. I feel perfectly fine advocating tax cuts as at the same time I don't want half the stuff we're getting taxed for in the first place.

  74. The Nerve of These Facists! by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

    I have the right to commit crimes in privacy! It's bad enough that people lock their houses when they leave, but this is going to make my work all the harder. Shit, now i'm going have to switch cars and double back through tunnels. Won't somebody PLEASE think of the criminals!

    Thank goodness this system wasn't in place after I robbed that 7-11. They might have tracked me to my own home. What kind of country do we live in where "cops" can make me accountable for my actions? Not any kind of country I want to live in.

    And these speed cameras are infringing on my God given right to go as fast as my car's engine will take me. Now I have worry about being watched as I do 50 in the suburbs. If some kid runs out in front of me, he'll learn his lesson, and he won't do it again. Damn nanny state expect us to watch out for everyone. Who's watching out for us???

    I shouted fire in a crowded movie theater and they had the nerve to arrest ME for using my right to free speech. No one was in any danger, as there wasn't a fire. I was just yanking their chains. What a bunch of humorless wussies we've become.

    Just the other day some cop told me I shouldn't drive while using my cell phone. I said, "I can handle doing two things at once" and he whined about 'putting other drivers and pedestrians at risk'.

    There I am going to visit my pal Jim. And THEY'RE watching me. Why do they care that I'm visiting Jim?You know why they're doing all this? Because they're onto me. They know how important I am. I know the truth, man. Of the millions of people in my area, they're watching ME. They have nothing better to do! I'm the center of the damn universe and they know it. I'm just trying to commit my crimes in peace. Is that so wrong?

    --
    Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  75. FAA says: LOLZ by cemulli · · Score: 1

    A lot of police departments want these new toys, and there are a lot of companies making these things. Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) are already used for border patrol. One of these border patrol UAVs (a Predator B) crashed in 2006. Safety concerns + excessive surveillance concerns = fun for the whole family.

    I've been looking into this stuff because my hometown is trying to get permission for this too. The one my hometown is testing out is a helicopter equipped with a regular camera and an infrared camera. They can't fly it over populated areas yet.

    Regulatory thing: The FAA's current view of UAVs is that they can't be used over populated areas. Period. BUT, you guys in Houston and Miami should probably look up and wave every now and then, because the Houston and Miami area police departments got clearance from the FAA to fly their UAVs over these urban areas. The FAA isn't planning on revising their policy on UAV use in civilian airspace until at least 2010, but Houston and Miami are basically test areas to help them figure out what sort of regulations would be needed. You guys feel safer yet?

    1. Re:FAA says: LOLZ by cemulli · · Score: 1

      (And yes, the article refers to a tiny manned aircraft, but it didn't register with my brain because having a MANNED AIRCRAFT flying around constantly just seemed too stupid)

      That aside, you do have 2010 and potential new FAA regs to look forward to. I don't know which is creepier. Manned aircraft being flown around providing constant surveillance, or unmanned aircraft that are just glorified R/C hobby planes with cameras

  76. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess that these officials in Lancaster never heard of a little area of Riverside, CA called Casa Blanca. They tried to shoot down a police helicopter there. They'd start a Death Pool on a little unmanned drone flying around a neighborhood. I can't imagine that Lancaster villains are very much less vicious, and if anyone actually flies a Cessna on this task, I hope they have a lot of evasion experience.

  77. seems like a good idea by xmvince · · Score: 1

    seems like a good idea as long as they don't start trying to crack down on non-violent non-hurtful "crimes" such as marijuana smoking.