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TSA Wants You To Keep Your Seat, and Your Hands In Sight
An anonymous reader excerpts from an AP story as carried by Yahoo News about changes stemming from yesterday's foiled bombing attempt of a Northwest Airlines flight: "Some airlines were telling passengers on Saturday that new government security regulations prohibit them from leaving their seats beginning an hour before landing. The regulations are a response to a suspected terrorism incident on Christmas Day. Air Canada said in a statement that new rules imposed by the Transportation Security Administration limit on-board activities by passengers and crew in US airspace. ... Flight attendants on some domestic flights are informing passengers of similar rules. Passengers on a flight from New York to Tampa Saturday morning were also told they must remain in their seats and couldn't have items in their laps, including laptops and pillows." The TSA's list of prohibited items doesn't seem to have changed in the last day, though.
yeah, really effective policy.
Another reason for me not to fly. And another Al Qaeda success in disrupting the US economy and society beyond their wildest dreams.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
How ridiculous can flying become? Just say "F**K YOU" to terrorists, and fly as if nothing had happened. Otherwise they've won.
With all due respect on the aisle thing, if I'm on a long-ish flight, fall asleep after eating whatever, and I have to pee badly enough, stand aside and let me use the lav, or I'll just piss in my paints in the aisle and let the cleaning crew on the ground deal with it... not my fault you guys tied to keep me from using the bathroom despite pointing out how badly I needed it a dozen++ times. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. The TSA has gone beyond asinine now.
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
The TSA's policy of retroactive bans has already made flying almost unbearable. Does terrorism need not even succeed anymore to impact our day-to-day lives so much?
Seriously. Make every passenger from Nigeria go out through security in Amsterdam, then back in. And while you are at it if some guy in Nigeria goes to the US embassy and says look out for my son here is his name then bloody look out for that name in visa requests and think twice before granting it.
Oh and another thing. US security seems to focus on detaining the bad guys after they have landed in the US. We have heard of this happening to plenty of people. How about recognising that they can get up to bad stuff while still in the air over Detroit, and trying to keep the bad guys from even getting on the plane.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
The TSA's list of prohibited items doesn't seem to have changed in the last day, though.
Explosive devices aren't already listed?
Just make it illegal to be a passenger on a plane and get it over with! No passengers = No terrorists
I am starting to think the airlines want this.
If government rules make it impossible to have comfortable flight, why should an airline even try to make the flight comfortable?
(fedex can ship 200 pounds of meat cheaper than american airlines)*
*might not actually be true, but I am sure some bean counter is thinking it
After all, Abdulmutallab was out of his seat and attempting to ignite an explosive in his carry-on luggage.
No, wait, he was in his seat, and attempting to ignite an explosive he had attached to his leg.
So what's the point of the new rules?
Because apparently the only possible time to detonate something and bring down an airplane is in the last hour before landing. So THAT is why the shoe bomber failed....he did it too early!
How about we have a reasoned response to this instead of just blindly making shit up based on the last attack?
news like this make me want to vow that i'll never fly again, but unfortunately in this country often there is no viable alternative. that's why i want to say, please somebody invent it already!!
weinersmith
Much, much safer.
The last one sounded like some guy successfully set off a charge that was barely large enough to set his pants on fire, then some guy jumped him afterwards. How, exactly, is that foiled?
Just like the shoe bomber fracas a couple of years ago, is that to thwart a perp attacking an aircraft, what you need are passengers who are ready to go berserk on his ass. No TSA or air marshalls needed.
The spurt of rule-making that follows an incident like this is nothing but a demand for more docility from the public. The TSA is useless.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Do they actually realize that anyone with half a brain-cell thinks they look like idiots? Wait till they make their ultimate security policy: no passengers allowed on planes.
Shh.
Another example of how the government is keeping us safe. But they are not, this guy was on a watch list for two years and still got on a plane. The perception of safety is there yet really it has no real and only impacts everyones personal liberties.
Half of writing history is hiding the truth.
I've canceled my vacation. Not because I'm afraid of terrorists-- I'm not, at all. We're talking at about 1 death per 4 million passengers.
No, it's that in response to this sliver of a threat, you're guaranteeing that I'll spend twice the time in line, and the flight will be as miserable as you can make it. This will cost literally billions of dollars (at 300 million hours, about 450 lifetimes) of productive passenger time per year. And all because some twat might set his crotch on fire-- good thing you don't allow us to have water anymore.
Alright. Fine. Let the airlines go out of business; this nation of cowards deserves it. I suppose we'll need another bailout, to pay the airlines to leave their aircraft on the tarmac.
Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for imaginary security are assholes.
And one dumb-ass giving his crotch second-degree burns is enough to cause these stupid policies for every one of these flights?
I'm all for security but now this all nonsensical. Instead of actually making actual changes they just impose extremely annoying rules that have no actual security improvement. What does it matter whether or not it is the last hour...can't the terrorist just set off a bomb...I dunno before the last hour. I don't understand what the actual point of this rule is.
So if I want to pee, read a book, put something away, or so much as even flinch I'm gonna be threatened with an arrest. Simply inconveniencing people isn't gonna make security any better...
This terrorism paranoia will end up with passengers travelling nude and with arms handcuffed in their seats...
I will have to re-watch CON-AIR to get familiar with our future flight accommodations.
I wonder if the TSA's motive is to make air travel so unbearable that international travelers begin to lobby their own government to impart effective measures to counteract these types of attacks.
Like the TSA or not, I'm pretty sure they would have caught this guy if he was getting on the plane stateside. Why can't other countries do the same?
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
Has anybody provided any evidence that the guy had anything remotely like a bomb? I mean, suicide bombers, and guys that bomb airplanes don't tend to use explosives where they have to light the fuse. I mean, this is like terrorism ala the Sylvester and Tweety Show.
I'm willing to bet this guy is nuts, had no compatriots in Al Qaeda, did not pick up any kind of package from evil confederates, but was a dipshit who bought some fireworks and was sufficiently stupid and delusional to think he could bring down an airplane with them. Now he gets to rot in jail with torched testicles. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to rot, but come on, just WTF does the TSA, or anyone think they're fooling here?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Number of people dead from an airplane incident this year: 0
Number of people dead from car accidents this year: tens of thousands
Number of people dead from cancer this year: hundreds of thousands
Number of people inconvenienced because of stupid airline regulations: millions
Number of people losing their livelihood due to reduced tourism to the USA: probably tens of thousands
Number of people dieing as an indirect cause of airline regulations: probably more than the victims of terrorism this year
Number of people failing to comprehend basic statistics: hundreds of millions
Seriously, enough of this madness. It was a foiled bombing attempt that came with the usual Al Quaeda franchise branding. I certainly don't care about the original news more than a few brief lines about it on some buried page on the BBC's website, however it's pissing me off in a major way that a lot of people seem to think this is a big deal. It's not!
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
You beat terrorists by raising a middle finger in their direction, mocking them mercilessly and accepting casualties once in a while. You kiss terrorist arse when you pull this kind of crap. What's next, handcuff passengers to their seats and have police strutting up and down the aisles during flights? Give me an effin' break!
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Trains may take longer but you can walk around and see the country side. No lines and relax and talk with those around you.
Oh and you can use you cell phone.
So, during this time when you aren't allowed to get out of your seat, aren't allowed to use the bathroom (explicitly mentioned in an article I read):
What happens if you have to crap? Like really have to? I have a feeling if someone started yelling about how they were gonna shit their pants, a flight attendant would let them to the bathroom, although I think if you're at the point where passengers are having to yell about needing to take a crap (in front of dozens of passengers), you are opening yourself up to a lawsuit.
Once the wise bureaucrats of the TSA get a full chance to gather their collective minds together and make thorough examination of incident I fully expect the following policy changes.
1) All airline passengers must travel nude and will be required to be nude to traverse any security checkpoints. After all the guy had the goods in his underwear, so to speak.
2) All airline passengers must submit to random body cavity searches at the security checkpoints. This way the TSA is saying they are keeping one step ahead of the bad guys.
Of course you'll still be allowed to carry on any number of things that a clever person could use as a weapon, but what the hell... perception is more important than reality! ...and some suggest the terrorists have won...
I agree with most of the comments that new rules are pointless and I think will eventually go away. But right now they are important to change rules of angagement so potential terrorist will think they need to adjust and make mistakes.
I have trouble keeping my son in his high chair with his hands in plain site in a high chair. Good luck getting infants to sit still.
I don't know who's stupider: The idiots at the TSA who come up with the rules, the politicians that give them this power, or the dickheads that allow the politicians to be elected.
I'll stay well out of your country. I only wish your fucked up rules didn't get copied by our own government and idiotic organisations. We just had some ridiculous security restrictions lifted in Australia. What's the bet that all gets reversed thanks to you crazy as fuck yanks?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
As much as I would like to avoid federal charges, if I've gotta go, I've gotta go. And forcing my way past flight attendants and taking the inevitable bullshit when I finally land is what I assume will happen to me on future flights.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Has anybody provided any evidence that the guy had anything remotely like a bomb?
From this article:
High explosives are believed to have been moulded to his body and sewn in to his underpants.
...
A preliminary FBI analysis has found that the device allegedly found on Mr Abdulmutallab contained the high explosive PETN, also known as pentaerythritol.
It sounds pretty full on to me. I think we dodged a bullet.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to rot, but come on, just WTF does the TSA, or anyone think they're fooling here?
The general public...and they're buying into it.
(There is supposed to be a Sarcmark® here, but my $1.99 check hasn't cleared, yet...)
Until air travellers grow a pair and just collectively shove past TSA refusing to be illegally searched, the security theater will continue to inconvenience the public without so much as slowing down terrorism.
Furries make the internet go.
First a shoe bomb makes me take off my shoes at the checkpoint. If this is truly a pants bomb, then they have really won, for imagine us having to take off our pants before going through the metal detector. Brilliant stategy.
Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Has anybody provided any evidence that the guy had anything remotely like a bomb?
From this article:
High explosives are believed to have been moulded to his body and sewn in to his underpants. ...
A preliminary FBI analysis has found that the device allegedly found on Mr Abdulmutallab contained the high explosive PETN, also known as pentaerythritol.
It sounds pretty full on to me. I think we dodged a bullet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentaerythritol
Derivatives of pentaerythritol are components of alkyd resins, varnishes, PVC stabilizers, tall oil esters, and olefin antioxidants.
Or he could have had a HEAVY tan after he put on the pants?
Leave it to the Tupperware Stacking Agency to come up with all this security theater non sense, pretty soon they will ban farting on airplanes.
It's stupid not because it's exaggerated, but because it's ineffective. It's BS. I went to a conference in the US at the end of November, and was reminded just how bad it is to fly to and from the US. I have also flown to and from Israel, a country very much in the crosshairs of terrorists, and the security procedure was MUCH more humane, both on the flights and at boarding. (in fact, I didn't even need a visa for Israel, while I need to go through an incredibly complicated and expensive procedure to get a US visa... but this is a different story (or is it?)) The Israelis do have some security processes in place, but they are mostly stealth and unobtrusive. Well, in any case, they must be doing something right, because there has not been a hijacked or otherwise terror-affected flight to or from Israel in decades now.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
I have long faced the dilemma of choosing either public humiliation, or fecal pleasure. Now I can swim in my own stools in public and not be ridiculed.
It's a wonderful day.
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
why they are going bankrupt.
Who wants to pay to put up with garbage like this?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Make every passenger from Nigeria go out through security in Amsterdam, then back in.
Amsterdam already does this, not just for Nigeria, but for every passenger arriving from every country.
You have clearly never been to the Amsterdam airport. The security checkpoints in Amsterdam are at the departure gates, not at the terminal entrance. Every single departure gate has an individual security checkpoint, with metal detector and x-ray machine. Every passenger boarding the flight is screened, regardless of their point of origin.
My first reaction upon seeing this setup was that it was a waste of resources for every gate to have a separate checkpoint. But it makes sense in a lot of ways. It prevents long lines from building up in any single checkpoint (important if you're concerned about terrorists setting off bombs while waiting in a densely packed line). Also, unlike US airports, if a passenger escapes through the checkpoint, it's very easy to find him afterward, since there's nowhere to go beyond the checkpoint except onto the plane. Hence you never see the entire airport closing down because one passenger ran through the checkpoint the wrong way. My guess is that the cost saved by avoiding 2-3 security related airport closures in this way makes up for the cost of the extra hardware.
Go "BOO" enough times and the US will spend itself into financial ruin. Wait -- that's happening NOW!
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
Scroll down -- there's a clearly-labeled section detailing which kinds of explosive are allowed and which aren't.
But see, this is one truly moronic result of security theater -- first, the explicit list of specific stuff you can't bring is also an implicit list of stuff you can. If I were an aspiring terrorist, I'd be reading through that thinking, "Hmm, a golf club would be really useful, but they're banned... I'll just bring a stick of rebar instead." That's the problem with security theater in general -- you're preparing for specific attacks, and by publicly preparing for those, you guarantee that the terrorists won't use that attack -- they'll use something else.
The second problem is that the list in itself is a list of ideas if you can manage to sneak that stuff past security. "Hmm, a spillable battery -- that's a good idea. I just have to put it in a wheelchair and pretend to be disabled..."
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Dodged the Flaming Pants bullet? Please provide some evidence that the 'device' could actually be detonated, rather than just burn.
- These characters were randomly selected.
So how did this guy get through?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
PETN is pentaerythritol tetranitrate which is most decidedly not found in varnish. It's a nitrate ester of pentaerythritol and is actually quite a powerful explosive.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Haha, exactly. Going through Schiphol is a PITA; and now it seems like all that "security" was for nothing. Great Job!
Why is it that next day air on FedEx for a box that doesn't require any climate control at all that could still fit a person in it is MORE expensive than flying a person PLUS the same amount of baggage?
The only thing I can think of is that FedEx actually guarantees the box will get there.
paintball
They'll have us attached to the seats with manicles ?
and if you want to pee, tough luck... pee on yourself ?
or mebbe they'll confiscate all clothing and have us travelling naked ?
(Assuming he did go through Amsterdam airport security) Part of the problem at Amsterdam airport is that they do tend to rush security checks sometimes. Often, I have seen them open up the security checkpoint at the gate just 20-30 minutes before the flight is due to depart. The security guards are then in a rush to get everyone across and so the scans and bag checks are hastily done. This Nigerian might just have been 'lucky'.
Always proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
After this rule more people will die from blood clots.
Sane airlines actually encourage people to get up from their seats at regular intervals.
E.g. Edelweiss Air used to show a video explaining the issue (I haven't flown with them in a while so I don't know about the current situation), Emirates has some pictures on how to keep circulation intact etc.
My wife wants to see the USA someday. I don't see this happening any more. At the very least, we are taking the BOAT. I don't care if it takes weeks to get there. At least I do not need to go through all this "security" bullshit. Wake up and smell the coffee. TERRORISTS WIN
FYI I live in Israel and jet fighters fly over my house 3-5 times a week. Just now one passed over my house at mach 1+, shaking the coffee cup on my desk during one of their flyby's to Lebanon. Sure its noisy but unlike TSA, the Israel Army is not treating me as a terrorist! (And I get to pay reduced taxes)
I've been to Israel only once -- earlier this year; beautiful and interesting place to visit! -- and while I agree with you that their procedures seemed more humane, I wouldn't say that they (speaking only of the visible parts) were any less visible / overt than in the U.S., but rather the opposite.
My demographic (perhaps the same as yours, I don't know) I'm sure contributed to the scrutiny I received on both sides of my 3-week trip -- I didn't *notice* any extra attention paid to me during my actual time in the country, which doesn't prove there wasn't any. (That is, as male under 40, traveling alone with no checked baggage, and no strong connections to Israel in the form of family, culture, previous visits, etc.)
I was approached and questioned (not unpleasant -- agent was cute) even on arrival, right on the stairs leading from the plane to the hallway to the main terminal, who called me out by name. Was it partly because I was taking the stairs (two at a time) instead of the escalator, or blind chance? I dunno. All visitors (there are separate lines for Israeli passport holders, and I'm not sure how they're treated) on arrival must clear passport control with a small interview about the purpose of the visit, schedule, etc. I have visited a handful of countries overall (8, I think), but it was by far the most thoroughly and frankly I ever remember being examined. Very different from most of my experiences with TSA in the US, and seemed to be more thoughtful / alert even than what I found in German and American airports when I flew to Berlin from the U.S. in October, 2001 -- a pretty tense time to fly.
On departure from Israel, was engaged in pointed conversation by three different security people in the initial line at the airport, too, before even checking in for my flight, and that's before I reached the two X-ray stations, pat-down station, and chemical sniffer. Asked to spell the names, and give the address, of the friends with whom I had stayed in Jerusalem, to name and describe the place I'd stayed in Haifa, to describe in detail (more than once) the purpose of my trip, my itinerary, etc, and prompted to agree -- again, more than once -- that perhaps someone had supplied me with a package to carry on my flight, etc. "No, this is all my own luggage, and I have had control of it the whole time. Yes, I packed it. Correct, this is my luggage for the entire trip. Yes, I visited Jordan for one day, to visit Petra. No, I don't know anyone in Jordan. Yes, I met some interesting people while I've been in Israel, but No, none of them asked me to carry anything in my luggage. I was in Haifa to give a small talk and to see the city." (etc.) Thought it was a bit much even given my expectations of hard-nosed vigilance, it was all fairly polite and respectful* -- just insistent. It also buoyed my confidence that people who seemed competent and thoughtful were visibly involved, and actually enjoyed it as an interesting cultural experience. If I flew there every month, I might feel a lot differently about it.
This is not to say that I am aware of all the security stuff going on in the background, there or in the U.S. -- I figure (and hope) that there's more to it than what I see ;)
Cheers,
timothy
* This is certainly not my experience with TSA, though I'm sure some of their agents are competent, polite, and alert. I've just seen, or at least taken note of, more of the other kind. My horror stories aren't even campfire ghost stories compared to the people who've really gotten screwed over by TSA, and so aren't worth recounting at this time of night, so I'll just leave it at that.
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
The TSA losers failed to prevent him from getting on the plane with a firecracker.
Now they are saying "well we need to treat you all like prisoners now."
You know what, the terrorists just won, with a @#$%ing firecracker.
"I have to PEE!"
"Please remain seated, sir."
Time for the US to write a new anthem.
Such a shame, I travel frequently to the US, know lots of Americans, all intelligent nice people. Yet the government forces them to live in fear, when in reality there is next to none. And the impositions forced on them, and anyone else in the world, simply do not work.
What really gets my riled up, is to get on a plane to the US, I've got to go through TWO security check points, the regular one, and an extra one where 'they' (TSA) block off half the terminal and proceed to further slow and annoy (they do pat downs). And it doesn't work. On my most recent trip, I unknowingly made it all the way into the US with a pocket knife in my carry on (I removed the regular one, I'd forgotten about the little one).
Enjoy your eroded freedom, and illusion of safety Americans. Me, I enjoy coming home. Only have to worry about our government forcibly protecting us from boobies on the interwebs.
The terrorists have won.
I am not an expert in weapons or killing people by any means but give me some time in the passenger cabin of an empty airplane (i.e. an airplane with just its standard equipment BEFORE any luggage, carry-on bags or passengers have been loaded) and easily find a way to kill someone (be it the pilots, flight attendants or passengers) and even to compromise the integrity of the aircraft should I want to do that.
An Al Queda operative with training would have an even easier job of doing so and could attack an airplane (with the aim to bring it down or to kill the pilots or whatever) even if the government takes this crap to the logical conclusion and bans anyone from bringing anything into the passenger cabin of an airplane except for a TSA issued orange jumpsuit.
But as long as the sheeple continue to believe the lies and FUD fed to them by the corporate media and continues to demand "action" on terrorism, we will see this kind of crap going on.
That's the most ridiculous thing about all this. Some TSA representative was quoted as saying they didn't have enough information to warrant putting this guy on the no-fly list. Apparently they had enough evidence on Ted Kennedy, one of the most senior US Senators at the time, to put him on the no-fly list, but a guy whos own father thought he was a dangerous zealot that the US should watch out for doesn't get on the list. Amazing.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
I notice that the chemical bonds for Pentaerythritol spell out HO HO HO HO. Make of that what you will during this holiday season.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please remove all clothing and place in the bins supplied, once complete please use the face mask provided to protect your and other passengers privacy. The filight attendants will be along shortly to escort you to your seat ast which time the nurse will administer the sedative. Please be sure that all video will only be used for training puproses.
http://www.vocfm.co.za/index.php?§ion=news&category=&vocnews=&article=49954
Its seems Shin Bet has been busy at a few airports too.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
and have the extra TIME to travel, I'll be driving more places, for sure. So what if it takes me 3 1/2 days to get to LA from Virginia? They'll at least be pleasant, I'll get to see a lotta scenery, maybe take a few pictures, and bypass the BS. If they ever get the high speed rail working, I might take that... if there's no security BS to put up with (pointless in a train - the terrorists just blow up the tracks..)
The father of one of the Bali 9 reported his son to the Australian Federal Police before they went to Bali and got caught. The AFP did nothing about it because they would lose a great catch that way. In policing there is less credit for catching somebody who might have gone on to do a bad thing than if you catch a really bad criminal in the process of committing the crime. So even though you could catch the bad guy you wait for the really big catch. Bad luck if he gets away at the list minute.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Is it possible to travel to USA from Europe by ship? Is there any passenger lines? Or cargo ships which accepts passengers?
Exactly - how on earth did the TSA come up with such seemingly braindead directive?
Sounds like they put the problem to a committee (I won't use the traditional metaphor becase it is a baseless slander against the noble camel).
Stopping people from going to the toilet or having stuff on their lap for the whole flight might actually help with the problem, but would be unworkable for other reasons (anybody want to invent a pants-mouted bomb detonated by urine?) So they reach for the political compromise: a time limit. Completey defeats the object, but hey, they're seen to be doing something - whereas pointing out that what we really have here is more evidence of the inefficacy of amateur binary explosives would be totally unacceptable.
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Rather than pass all sort of inconvenient regs, they should just have taken the Nigerion fellow out back and shot him. It would have been a much greater deterrent than a bunch of silly regulations that will utimately result in someone taking a shit right in their seat.
I agree with your sentiment, however true perspective is not something we want anyone to have, as anyone faced with their total insignificance would likely go mad, as pointed out by Douglas Adams.
That said, the some main goals of terrorism is to make governments overreact and look foolish while gaining media notoriety and scaring the ignorant. This idiot apparently managed to be ridiculously effective with the assistance of government and the media...and the populace as well.
We all make grandiose statements about "security theater," how worthless new rules are going to be, vowing never to fly again, etc. etc etc...but how many of us take our comments beyond a Slashdot post? How many comments about knee-jerk reactions are knee-jerk posts? I'll admit to the same, having sworn off flying if at all possible and driving to my desired destinations.
I'm not saying "quit whining." Far from it--what is being said needs to be said, but it needs to be said in the proper forum. Contact the TSA, the airlines, and your Congressional representation. Tell them the same things (with a dash of proper grammar and spelling and a certain amount of decor, of course) that, as the flying (or former flying) public, you object to tax dollars being wasted on what is perceived to be ineffective security measures. Make it a voting issue when the next election comes rolling around. Let those who make the rules know that they are having an effect--a negative effect. Tell the airline about that road trip you took and how much more enjoyable it was without having to submit to a bunch of BS screening.
I'll grant you that the most you can hope for, as an individual, is some sort of form-letter response from your Congressional representation. The airlines won't care because, frankly, if you don't buy the ticket, somebody else will. The TSA won't care because, well, they don't have to care. (Yes, I'm a little cynical.) En masse, however, somebody, somewhere, might start to pay attention.
I'll take my own advice right now, and after reading up on the actual event and the ensuing rules changes, make it clear to my representation my position, and what I expect to be done about it. I ask direct questions, in hopes of getting something other than a form-letter response. That way if I get a canned response that doesn't address the question, I have a reason to ask it again.
My deep thought for the day.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Since 2003 I have not flown into America, I always travel by boat to a shore destination and then take a bus to my final destination.
This is the quintessence of 'over-reaction'. I refuse to be treated like cattle on an airplane simply because the security team on the ground is incompetent
You guys can have fun tolerating this nonsense...the airlines lost my business ages ago.
Yes, but what is the response?
* 1 carry on bag.
* No getting out of your seat in the last hour.
* ban on the use of laptops, etc.
Hmmm. Would any of that have prevented this attack? No.
The "no getting out of your seat" will just change _where_ they blow the plane up, not *IF*.
But by introducing all of these new restrictions, they appear to be doing something when in fact they are doing nothing that would have prevented what happened.
If you cast your mind back to the 9/11 attacks, there is just one change required that would have prevented the terrorist attacks: locking cockpit doors during flight. Everything else is just slight of hand.
Now what we need is a journalist/reporter who'll do a "live" tv interview and drill into someone from TSA how banning laptops will prevent someone strapping explosives to their legs (it won't.)
What's really bad about this is that it has publicised an attack method for any terrorist to use without there being any sort of countermeasure to defend against it with.
Now the clock is ticking until a terrorist does bring down a plane using explosives hidden under their clothes and on their body.
Sigh.
Somehow I thought it was all bad Bush policies and things were going to be paradise now.
I guess that it is just the nature of big government to want power for those in charge at the expense of liberty and doesn't truly depend on who it actually it is.
by the time it was 9/12, every person who died there, was replaced.
no matter how much you tell yourself that 'thousands' of dead is important, it simply isn't.
The 2500 who died at the WTC weren't infants or elders. They were firemen.
They were men and women in their most productive years. In the rarefied business of investment banking and world trade.
Death is universal. But Death is also particular.
Hit hard enough, your city, your world, can be wounded beyond all hope of recovery.
Future Ideas from the TSA which they should look into. *All Passengers must be naked, harder to hide a bomb *Passengers will be put into a medically induced coma for the duration of the flight *Flights must be limited to 1 Passenger which are computer controlled, so if only the terrorist would die in such an event *Upon taking a flight 1 of your loved ones, your parents, your wife, your kids are held in escrow by the government, if you don't blow up a plane on your trip you get them back, if not they spend the next 50 years in Gitmo. * Minimum airline ticket costs 1 million dollars, super rich less likely to blow them selves up * Only good looking people allowed to fly, most terrorists tend to be quite ugly to be honest, seems the only way they can get a girl is to blow themselves up
You were flying into or out of the Schengen area. If you fly between Schengen destinations via Amsterdam, you don't have to pass through the checks. It's only when you land at or want to leave from a terminal designated for non-Schengen destinations that you have to pass the checks. Take a look at the airport map if you still have one one, and you will see the Schengen line right down the middle. You can get from some arrival areas to others without going through passport or security control, but others require you to cross the line.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
will use plan B (plan A having been successfully executed by the Nigerian) where you wait until 70 minutes prior to arriving before arming the bomb. Plan Z involves setting the plane on fire while passengers are boarding... Clearly I'm going to need a note from my doctor saying that I have a prostate condition that requires me to visit the bathroom every 50 minutes. Note that you don't even need explosives to cause a fire; you just use the Empower 15V power plugs to run a little resistance heater to set newspaper on fire. Think how many TSA rules THAT will spawn!
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
As folks who travel in and out of Washington, D.C. may remember http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-aadvantage/149256-no-standing-up-first-30-minutes.html when Reagan National Airport (DCA) finally re-opened the FAA imposed restrictions on inbound flights to Washington National that prohibited getting out of your seats during the last 30 minutes of flight and imposed restrictions on outbound flights from Washington National that prohibited getting out of year seats during the first 30 minutes of flight.
Eventually some TSA brainiac is going to remember the other half of the rule and ask the aircrew to impose the 1 hour prohibitions on flights outbound from the US.
I say "ask the aircrew to impose" because on-board an in-air flight the FAA's own rules say even the Air Marshal cannot force the pilot do to anything so if you're prevented from going to the bathroom then it's the aircrew's fault and not TSA's. Nuremberg Principle IV is unambiguous in stating that "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
I am with you guys. The US has become a paranoid culture bogged down with ultimately useless regulation and curbs on individual freedoms, thanks to 9/11. I said it then and I say it now: I would rather we turned Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Sudan, Iraq, Iran and Syria into radioactive parking lots, than lose what we were. But it's too late now. Osama has already won, especially when he has so many anti-government radicals in this country who are willing to provide aid and comfort to his cause. Welcome to the new reality.
Zooperman
... GTFO of Afghanistan and Iraq, apologize to muslims for the witch hunt and perhaps fewer of those misguided few youngsters will get funny ideas about blowing up civilians (if you believe the official accounts anyway). It's not that hard to accomplish, except for the arms industry...
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
DOCTOROW, Schneier, Sunday — After the Detroit Christmas firecracker incident, the Transport Security Administration now requires all US airline passengers to be strapped into their seats naked with catheters fitted, for their comfort and convenience.
"It's the most efficient way to keep the country moving and let the TERRORISTS know they haven't won," said TSA head Gale Rossides. "We're just trying to work out what to do when the TERRORISTS work out how to set off bombs by clenching their butt cheeks together."
Passengers are advised not to bother with laptops ("You could explode the batteries with your urine!"), iPods or the vile containers of sedition such as "books." "Carriage of any carryon item will result in lengthy security delays for the customer," said a TSA advisory, "but, in response to customer concerns, the TSA officer with the latex glove will give you a box of chocolates and promises to respect you in the morning, and will definitely call you later in the week. Honestly."
US tourism offices have finally given up and shut up shop. "I hear Afghanistan is pretty nice this time of year. Iran's pretty good too."
Officials at Amtrak did not give a comment on the phone, just the sound of dancing around their offices singing "We're In The Money."
The passenger who allegedly set off the firecracker has mounted a stern defense, showing his paycheck from the Department of Homeland Security's Subdepartment of Job Preservation.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
I think they might want to add semtex to the prohibited items list. That would be a good idea!
I bet the companies that provide millimeter-wave scanners to the US government (i.e. the thingies that electronically strip-search folk) are popping champagne and thanking their good fortunes. Since this ding-dong of a terrorist allegedly hid his 'cargo' in his underwear, there was no way to detect it, short of strip-searching him. I expect lots of false-positive for everyone under 60 who has to wear adult diapers in the future... Once 'on-body' smuggling becomes difficult I expect to see greater focus on 'in-body' smuggling in conjunction with carry-on smuggling. The X-Ray machines in use today are perhaps a step up from the old black-and-white models in years past, but the human operator remains a very weak spot. Not every pattern will be recognizable, especially if someone with ill intentions positions the item/carry-on optimally to avoid detection.
Anyway, the usual security theater aside, what irks me more than anything is that US airport infrastructure has not kept up with the expanding space requirements to host said theater. For example, the millimeter scanners I have seen in operation are slow and take up a lot of room. So, to process the same number of passengers, far more millimeter scanners are needed than the walk-through magnetic detectors they replace. Yet, no additional space is provided to create more parallel paths into the 'secure' area of the airport. Anywhere...
It's simply amazing that with all the stimulus funds being spent left and right on infrastructure that no one can be bothered to redesign airports around bigger screening areas that can actually handle expected flows of traffic. Naturally, a better response would be to scale back the theater and simply acknowledge that the government cannot protect every citizen from every crime and live with the consequences - but I'll limit that fantasy to the rational place where it belongs as opposed to the irrational place the TSA is creating for the traveling public.
As for the question of how the TSA will react to the latest bombing plot, I simply point to past responses. The folk who run this organization appear to be very reactive as opposed to pro-active. Furthermore, I doubt that the appointees by the Obama administration have even begun to to steer the mish-mash of a federal bureaucracy that they have inherited. Given how long it takes for federal rules to get proposed, reviewed, signed-off, etc. I doubt we will see real 'Obama' policy at the TSA in effect until sometime next year. In the meantime, the remaining Bush-era rules are getting discussed, pushed through, etc.
For what it's worth, the CNN article specifically mentioned the passenger wasn't rescreened in Amsterdam...
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/12/25/airliner.firecrackers/index.html
4th paragraph down.
This isn't about terrorism, it's all about reducing carbon emissions by convincing people to stop flying.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
...I'll stop flying as soon as someone tries blowing up a plane with a rectal bomb or by making his underwear explode. "Please stand in line for a short rectal bomb check"
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Will the morons in charge of public safety cancel the current Grand Guignol farce that is supposed to guarantee that asshats-of-no-particular-philosophical-orientation-whatsoever-and-certainly-not-adherents-of-islam-at-all-no-way-jose do not get the least chance to practice their asshattery. What possible difference is chaining passengers to their seats for the last hour of the flight going to make? Had these same morons profiled this asshat and paid attention to the information that fairly screamed DANGER-WILL-ROBINSON we'd all ( absent those inclined to asshattery and their enablers ) be much happier. One fine day we'll wake up to the news that somebody tried to detonate a suppository bomb and you can guess just what new security measures will result from that.
It has been well documented that patients at risk for blood-clots or with other cardiovascular diseases are at increased risk during airline flights because you're forced to sit still for extended periods of time. Consequentially patients are often advised to get up and move about every now and then during long flights.
Consequentially these new security guidelines may well cause a number of strokes and heart attacks. If it is implemented on all American airlines then I imagine it would not take long until the number of causalities from this retarded security policy greatly exceed the number of people who would be killed by terrorists if common sense had been allowed to prevail.
Sorry to piss on your complaints parade,
but some of these restrictions already existed.
On flights from Montreal (Canada) to Washington DC (Reagan national, i.e. not far from Pentagon), you cannot leave your
(often very cramped regional jet) seat one hour before landing. The flight is something like 1hr 20min in total.
Basically, the plane barely takes off, the seat belt sign turns off, and then they tell you you about the restriction.Then you
see the lineup of women with overactive bladders, the 300lb IT dude, and the nervous traveler lining up to use the single bathroom
in the aircraft.
It has been this way for at least 5 years or so.
"On the Plane - The Fifth Element"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vv0u8Ruz58
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
No, we didn't. The goal is NOT to kill as many people as possible. That is just a means to get to their goal.
Most of the time terrosist want either to draw attention to them.
This so they can use it as a leverage to get others to do what they want.
I think the drawing attention worked pretty OK.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I have always wondered where the TGVs of North America are, linking the city centers of major cities? In the USA I can at least think of Atlanta - New York - Boston and in Canada I can think of Quebec city - Montreal - Toronto. All though they are not immune to terrorist attacks, the focus appears to be in the air and if you use the French TGV design where the bogies are between the carriages, then you have less chance of a catastrophic accident in case of derailment.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
First off, the TSA and US Government F@CKED up. This guy had been on a lot of lists for over a year. Amsterdam security also missed him as well.
Now, everyone else gets to pay. I heard this morning that there is now another FEE (tax) $30 per carry on. Also, no moving around on planes.
Hassle goes up at the airports, you pay extra to be treated like crap, and of course using your laptop is not allowed.
I am ready to stop flying/
Somehow we have to get our freedom and lives back. The government is making it worse than the consequences.
How about dealing with the root cause instead of focusing on the symptoms. The "hour" rule is absurd. What the TSA's really telling us is that they are incapable of keeping bombs off planes in the first place. Also, if you have to remain seated during the last hour of flight, their pre-board pat-downs and bag inspections are ineffective to begin with. Idiocy.
It's very sad that today's young generation can not have these kind of experiences any more.
Locked cockpit doors, passenger's hands tied to the chair in front of them, sedated passengers, ... What's next?
I wonder if more interaction between passengers would actually help matters.
I'm sure keeping people from the toilet won't help anybody though, as people simply cannot always be forced to hold their pee.
If an airline ever holds you in your seat when you need to pee, simply call an attendant to explain that you likely cannot hold it, and offer that they may either (a) bring you a bucket, or (b) frisk you and let you go. I bet the airline must ground the plane for longer if you pee in your seat or on the floor.
If you carry a pee bottle, then explain what your doing to nearby passengers first, as you don't want them attacking you for "mixing stuff".
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
A preliminary FBI analysis has found that the device allegedly found on Mr Abdulmutallab contained the high explosive PETN, also known as pentaerythritol.
It sounds pretty full on to me. I think we dodged a bullet.
This guy failed to ignite the same explosive that the shoe bomber failed to ignite. You may think we dodged a bullet, but I think it's been demonstrated that home-made "explosives" are not effective weapons against vigilant passengers. Effective against politicians and TSA bureaucrats, yes; against actual passengers and planes, no
So all the hipsters in Williamsburg are going to start taking up ironic retro-prejudice and hang "No Irish need apply" signs in their store windows?
All my posts to chill re the Christmas Firecracker incident had attached Ad Hominem attacks from small terrified men. This isn't going away. Statistics don't phase them. Facts just get in the way. They're terrified and nothing is going to help except the comfort of a huge Government blanket of "protection".
Never mind it doesn't exist, is ineffectual and can't be done. These people are not meant to live in a free society. Don't want a free society and are winning because the government is all too pleased to accommodate them. We, Liberals, Progressives, Libertarians {whatever} - all the flavors of people who cherish personal freedoms are screwed. The government wants to listen to this minority of frightened people - and together they have already changed what the USA was all about.
They aren't finished revoking our freedoms through the absence of common sense and have a long way to go. Because what they're looking for doesn't exist and can't be achieved. Already it's the State law in the majority that we must respond to "Papers Please" - as in my state Georgia failure to produce means jail.
The terrorists won. They already won a long time ago. This "continued fight" isn't. We're experiencing the clean-up.
David and Mr. "almost 2 people die every second" both miss THE key point illustrated by the response to the attacks on 9/11. The people at the top of those buildings were some of the wealthiest people on the planet. If they were dirt-farmers in Sudan or Ethiopia, we'd be all maintaining our calm perspectives. But when they're multi-millionaires in NYC, then we need to do something drastic. The idea that all people are of equal worth and value is a nice idea, but it is not put into widespread practice. The way our world allocates resources, 1 NYC bond trader or better yet, a Goldman Sach's senior partner could easily equal 1,000 Oklahomans or 5,000 Okinawans or 50,000 Columbians or 1,000,000 Sudanese or 2,000,000 Congolese. Perhaps there's a need for a human worth calculator web-site... So, if we have to crap ourselves in coach class on airplanes 100 times a day around the USA so that a single Goldman Sachs partner has a 0.000000000373% lower chance of being a victim of a plane falling out of the sky and landing on his yacht (he would not be caught on a commercial flight), then so be it. It's a fair trade.
All airline passengers will be put in straightjackets for the duration of the flight. Catheters and diapers will be provided.
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
Funny and sad that these regulations meant to address the Christmas Day incident wouldn't have prevented it. He was seated, and didn't have anything in his lap. I think this goes to show you that they wanted to push these regulations through but didn't think they would be tolerated, so they were just waiting for an "incident" as an excuse.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
Nope. We didn't dodge a damn thing. A pile of explosives goes poof with a flash and some flame. That's it. Even a really big pile. A pile of explosives in a very solid tube with one end open is a gun, which can shoot stuff out of the open end. A pile of explosives in a sealed container is a bomb, and can build up enough pressure to blow holes in things.
Sure, he had a great explosive. But without a sealed, solid container to put them in, he's only going to burn his dick off.
And I'm pretty sure that if you took a threaded steel container through security, they'd take an extra look at the rest of what you're carrying.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
I suggest that because of security needs, all Americans arriving in to the EU are subjected to a digital rectal examination upon arrival. Sorry for the inconvenience, but it just has to be done!
We need to immediately start a campaign to have everyone who comes up with these dip-shit ideas lined up against a wall and shot as traitors to the nation. The TSA can go fuck itself. I will absolutely REFUSE to follow these regulations. If I have to go to the bathroom, I'm going to take a goddamn piss. If they don't let me, I'm wipping my dick out and pissing on the floor. I say everyone should take this attitude. REFUSE to be herded like sheep!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
For all those not directly affected, it could've been a minor annoyance. Thousands of people die all the time for all kinds of stupid reasons. Deal with it. Individuals lives just aren't that important in the grand scheme of things.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
The only problem with Schipol's security arrangement is that unticketed pickpockets can roam the commercial area of the airport. Other than that nuisance, I leave it to the bean counters to decide which is the more efficient arrangement.
TSA is missing the obvious solution. Make everyone fly in the nude with no carry on baggage. This was even talked about back in the 1970's when airplanes were just being detoured to Cuba. This new requirement is not only useless it is inane. Any chance we could organize a nation wide don't fly this week protest of TSA? Let all the flights go empty for a week, and maybe we could force some sense into TSA and Fatherland -- excuse me -- Homeland Security too!
We in the U.S. need to stop seeking the approval of the world and the worlds poor. Instead, we need to "Man Up" and fight for what we want and to keep what we have. Otherwise, it will be taken away. Simple as that.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
What's with the sensationalism, slashdot?
No eating of burritos and cole slaw for 24 hours before the flight. Can't allow potentially deadly explosive by-products aboard.
Well, apparently, you only have to fool the majority of people for a little while.
Has anybody provided any evidence that the guy had anything remotely like a bomb?
From this article:
High explosives are believed to have been moulded to his body and sewn in to his underpants. ...
A preliminary FBI analysis has found that the device allegedly found on Mr Abdulmutallab contained the high explosive PETN, also known as pentaerythritol.
It sounds pretty full on to me. I think we dodged a bullet.
So let me see if I understand this, the US government was warned about this guy (by his own father no less), they had a file on him, and he was on a terrorist watch list, and was carrying a chemical explosive in his underwear. AND HE STILL MANAGED TO GET ON A FUCKING AIRLINER?!?!?!?!
And as a result someone is probably going to die from a blood clot due to being forced to stay seated because of this new knee-jerk reaction.
And I bet you that no one gets so much as a stern talking to over this entire affair. People should lose their jobs over this.
I am not one to jump on the political bandwagon either way, but why is this shit still happening? I thought this country was supposed to be run by adults now?
Any takers for the assumption of innocence here? I thought not.
That 100,000 dead people statistic in the two wars has been used for 5 years already! Has nobody died in 5 years?
Decent estimates are over 1 million -for a while now.
And while you are at it if some guy in Nigeria goes to the US embassy and says look out for my son here is his name then bloody look out for that name in visa requests and think twice before granting it.
You know what would be nice? If we had a list of names of, you know, people who were considered to be possible terrorists, so we could keep them off any flights in the US.
Instead, this guy just got put on some FBI watchlist, which of course airline passengers can't be checked against. If we had this hypothetical 'no-fly' list, he surely would have automatically been put on there. I mean, it would be the height of foolishness to actually have suspected terrorists that the government knows are suspected terrorists not be put on there.
Of course, if we had such a list, we'd probably have all sort of bitching because we'd put names like Cat Stevens and Ted Kennedy on it, but of course there'd be some sort of way for them to get removed, right?
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Its probably TRUE. Remember the man who shipped himself?
http://www.thatsweird.net/news6.shtml
You have to be protected from yourself and punished - freedom? hah!
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
All passengers and crew should fly naked. Ten gloves for body cavity searches will be randomly distributed. Hilarity ensues.
Some US airports use that setup. KCI has always been one of the smoothest place to fly from.
Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
we're all terrorists now
as if we don't let the plane explode earlier than an hour before landing
pfff
it is ALL still security theatre and does NOTHING about the terrorists, if any.
For what it's worth, security checkpoints for every departure gates is only in the international part of Schiphol.
When entering the Schengen (European) part of the airport you only have to go through one security checkpoint, and none at the gate. (Which also means you could do layovers inside the Schengen area without being rechecked)
A pile of explosives goes poof with a flash and some flame. That's it. Even a really big pile.
I won't believe it until I see it on MythBusters.
OK, the next bomb will be in a piece of hand luggage, pushed snugly against the back of the overhead locker so it is as close to the hull as possible. The detonator is hooked up to a remote control doohickey fabricated out of one of those cheap remote control planes/cars/helicopters, built into a laptop or something similar. Or there is no remote control at all, the thing is rigged to explode at a certain time after pressing some button on the laptop.
No, this does not sound like it will have any effect. It will just inconvenience all those who have no plans whatsoever to blow up planes. It does resemble DRM a bit in the sense that the 'security' measures are at most a small hindrance to the bad guys while causing loads of discomfort and annoyance to the rest.
Maybe the air transport sector should take a look at how DRM fared in the audio sector?
--frank[at]unternet.org
Every time the TSA makes flying more inconvenient and/or more uncomfortable, the terrorists have won without having to actually kill or injure anyone. I drive a lot of times to places that I once used to fly to. Driving times of up to nine hours now that were hour and forty-five minute flights.
The TSA is reactive and not proactive, they throw in security measures against methods that are low odds to be tried again. The next attempt is almost certain to be something new that TSA has not even thought of.
You are right about the interview at the airport - I landed in Ben Gurion and had the one, short interview, and then a somewhat even shorter one on departure. So my experience was much shorter than yours, but I share the impression that they were not unfriendly, actually quite cordial.
My interviews to and from the US were less pleasant, to say the least. But as I said, I am from a country that needs a visa for the US, while you are, I guess, a US or UK citizen - very different thing. The interviews were generally not nice, and I felt that we were all, regardless of our origin or purpose of visit, treated as "probably a criminal". Or the officials/officers are all cranky, all of the time. I had the same feeling during the luggage security checks. More than just the interviews, however, what bothered me was the sheer slowness and convoluteness of the process. Mind you, I am NOT negatively biased against the US - quite the contrary. And I enjoyed a lot my stay in Washington DC. I had a grand time, but as I was leaving, I asked myself "I'd really like to bring my wife and son to Washington DC and see the Smithsonain air and space museum annex - but do I really want to put myself through all this, let alone my wife?".
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
i'm not allowed to take beer back from germany
Yes you are - you are just not allowed to have it in the cabin with you. There is nothing preventing you from checking it.
my girlfriend was denied a blanket because "we are taking off".
That is a reasonable safety issue, not a security one. They do not want bags, blankets etc. blocking seat rows in the event of a emergency at take off and landing where they are most likely to occur and where there is no time to clear things away if one does happen.
i'm not allowed to FUCKING LISTED TO MUSIC..... i don't like being waken up unless necessary.
Again this is a safety issue. They want to make sure that you can hear any emergency announcements at take off and landing when there is very little time to act. In Canada now you are allowed to wear headphones connected to the plane's internal audio (which will presumably play any announcements).
However your post does demonstrate a predictable reaction to all the stupid, assinine "security" rules which they keep throwing at us. Eventually people will get so irritated and annoyed by all the idiocy that they will stop listening and obeying all these rules because, if they know that 50% of them are stupid then perhaps the other 50% are as well. At that point you lose the willing cooperation of passengers and end up with a net reduction in safety.
And dope all the passengers to the gills to boot.
That way they can all be stacked like cord-wood for maximum profitability and everybody can travel in maximum safety (for the sake of the airlines' insurance premiums.)
Sleep your way to Duluth or anywhere else for that matter.
That way the sheeple will be ready for Cryo-sleep out to the mines in the asteroid belts, (just like in "Blade Runner," [but without the money wasted on replicants.])
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The 2500 who died at the WTC weren't infants or elders. They were firemen.
Pity++
They were men and women in their most productive years. In the rarefied business of investment banking and world trade.
Pity--
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Who profits from this?
It’s a bit hard. I guess getting used to such a t(h)reatment profits the control freaks who then use it for profit and power.
But other than that?
I mean it’s clear that the only reason the TSA did ignore all usual precautions, did ignore that that guy was on that terror list already, and did not even listen to his own father, calling in, and warning them that this exact thing was going to happen, is that the TSA just was happy to get another justification for its existence and power lever.
I think the perceived cause/effect relationship is wrong here. In my opinion, the new rules are not because of that guy. No, that guy did what he did, because the TSA wanted to push trough new rules. He’s just another random straw-man.
At least that’s what comes out when you “follow the profit”, and assume that they are not totally retarded.
Why that assumption? Simple: If the TSA would be dumb, they would already be replaced by more intelligent criminals. In that “business” you don’t survive long if you’re dumb. So we really can’t in any way assume that they are just being dumb. That’s like a car salesman going “Oh, sorry that I wrecked your car. I guess I must be a bad driver. Me dumb. Sorry.”. Would you believe him? ^^ See... :)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Did you know that Glasgow has more people with doctorates per capita, and more drunks per square mile, than any place else in Europe, on or off the continent.
I'm surprise the guys didn't spontaneously burst into alcohol fueled flames. (Oooo, pretty blue. [hic {barf}])
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Top to bottom the TSA is a bad joke involved in customer service, PR and propaganda work. I could only work with the screeners for so long until I could not take it anymore. I tested airport check points and while I cant say anything (signed a lot of documents saying I would not) about what I did, saw or learned, I can say is; you just DON'T want to know. Um, yea, Just hope all those devices do their job as most screeners are there because its a government job; it pays without (for the most part) the possibility of being fired. They begged me for weeks not to leave.
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
Sorry to hear that about your experience w/ US entry, but not terribly surprised. Amazing how much eye contact, body language, tone of voice, etc. go toward making an experience seem bearable or not; TSA's staff often (not always) seems peevish, distracted, uninterested, etc; they don't want to make eye contact, they want to argue with supervisors about their break time, or joke with each other about nonsense; at Ben Gurion, alertness was the rule, and constant assessing looks. No nonsense spotted :)
The U.S. has a lot of great things going for it, including (generally but with pessimism-creating exceptions) a tradition / convention of kindness, assisting strangers, etc -- but the surliness of certain low-level functionaries puts a damper on this.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Let's give them healthcare!!!!
That is only true for low explosives. (gunpowder etc)
High explosives expand into their gaseous phase fast enough that a container is not essential.
Nuremberg, just add a modern liberal arts education. Sheez.
I don't believe any of this BS anymore. End the TSA.
Thousands of people dying cannot reasonably be described as a "minor annoyance."
Said the one who pooh-poohed the frequent computer{sic} outages in health centers and hospitals. Just for the sake of argument, we'll pick some small numbers: 3000 hospitals with at least one mission critical service tied to MS products and one computer{sic} outage per hospital per year. That'll add up to thousands of deaths quickly even with those low numbers. And you know the real numbers are much, much higher.
The Patriot Act was all ready to go and just needed a situation where it could be pushed through without a single congressman actually reading it. It was the most convoluted, obfuscated patchwork imaginable. Reading raw diff output is easy by comparison. Keeping legislation in XML (say Docbook or OpenDocument Format) and then using a version control system like SVN, GIT or Mercurial would have made the planned end result more clear.
Ok. This wealthy Nigerian who tried to light his farts for Yemen makes a point that it's dangerous to fly to the US. Now can the rest of the world go back to a more civilized way of managing air passenger traffic.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
so after the airlines go out of business (because people don't want to put up with all of the TSA bullsh*t), then what will all of the TSA goons do? Move to INS and take care of the border crossers?
Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy.
I flew from Phoenix to San Francisco this morning and I didn't notice anything either. Nobody made reference to the incident in question. Nobody asked us to do anything out of the ordinary. On the plane, passengers used the lavatory when they needed to. This seems like a non-story to me (except, perhaps, for Air Canada passengers).
Breakfast served all day!
RE: "A lot of explosive material can be shoved up one's ass and very little can be done to prevent this manner of transport from getting through security screening."
How long can you hold that up there? Have you done experiments?
Please publish the results!
> How ridiculous can flying become?
They put these new restrictions out within *hours* of the attack. So they can't have spent very much time thinking about them. On the other hand, I have a theory.
You realize that every would-be terrorist has been apprehended by a passenger, right? I think they're trying to piss all the passengers off. That way, we'll all be more likely to beat the hell out of any terrorist we find. Also, it doesn't hurt that Congresscritters are immune from these restrictions. So they don't have to put up with them.
It's still happening because, at the end of the day, no system is perfect, and given enough attempts, or a determined enough strategy, there is ultimately no way to keep everyone safe all the time. Guys like the TSA try to sell people on this, but it's a lie, but from the government's perspective, a useful lie.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Or is there some physics that makes an explosion 30 minutes before landing more dangerous then 1 hour and 30 minutes?
No it's just more security theater. Many of the TSA's security precautions are pure theater and not based on any real threat.
Over on BoingBoing one recent traveller said that the onboard GPS position display was disabled as a security measure. Passengers were still able to time their journey though.
Security, riiiight... Never mind that my Garmin GPS works just fine on any airplane and is available at many fine retail establishments near you for less than $200.
his pants and Mommy DEMANDS that she be allowed to take him to the toilet to clean him up, the next decree from the TSA Czar will be to strap bladder bags on everyone and cuff their hands to the arms rests of the seats before takeoff.
IF that fails then they'll require everyone to be anesthetized before takeoff, and awakened after landing.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Will have to give them to the TSA before entering the plane who will in turn give them to the stewardess who will keep an eye on them for the whole flight. Yes, we must give people with artificial appendages as little dignity as possible.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
TSA wants everyone in submission at all times because then they are in control of you and everything you do.
Agreed, this bit of your argument makes sense but this was the last bit that did.
How many terrorists would succeed if you could openly carry handguns onto a plane?
A nice absurd strawman argument. Since letting firearms be carried on a plane is a security AND safety risk, it would be absurd to allow loaded firearms by the general public. First time someone loses their temper on an airplane an there is a shooting your argument would lose all credibility. Furthermore, if you carry a gun on a plane (even if legal) why shouldn't I think you might be a terrorist? I don't know you and I certainly don't trust you, especially with a firearm while we are trapped in a metal tube 30,000 feet above the ground. This remains true even if I am carrying a firearm of my own. Bear in mind that I generally support gun ownership rights including concealed carry. The idea of a Mexican standoff in the air doesn't hold a lot of appeal for me.
Also bear in mind that a gun is no defense against a bomb. If a terrorist smuggles explosives on board and is willing to die, a firearm is not going to save you.
The airlines industry will fail because of the TSA.
A tempting thought but no it won't. You would realize this if you gave it more than a second's worth of thought. Air travel is far too important to our modern economy. If the TSA really went overboard the voters and airline industry (which includes companies like GE, Boeing, and many others besides just the airlines) would grab the ear of our politicians in a big way and ultimately the TSA is answerable to the President and Congress. The TSA can screw with us but there are limits to their power.
Travel is so cumbersome and difficult that Amtrak has been gaining customers steadily for years.
Amtrak gaining customers has nothing to do with the TSA. Amtrak has gained customers because of capital improvements in the NE corridor and rising fuel prices. There is no evidence I am aware of that the TSA has had any significant impact on ridership of Amtrak or any other passenger rail.
And Obama loves the idea of spending trillions for high speed rail across the country.
So what? He'd have to get the idea through Congress and he's not stupid enough to try given the state of the economy. There may be money for subsidizing rail lines but thinking "trillions" will be spent is pure fantasy on your part.
I'm still trying to understand what a terrorist is going to do on a train.
Really? It's that hard for you to think of ways a terrorist could use a train for terrorism?
This is a case of highly successful culture jamming.
Reagan brought down the USSR by inducing it to self-implode in responding to "Star Wars" - no matter that Star Wars did not work. Bin Laden has found a much more cost-effective way of making the USA implode itself.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
Yes, I know, I can type more than that for my comment.
So basically because Amsterdam security was not very good, we all get to deal with new stupid rules that would have done nothing to change the situation that happened?
If you have a "working stiff" back-office job in the US you are among the wealthiest people in the planet. Top 5% for sure, probably top 2%.
There are billions of people who live on a few hundred a year.
Also - some of the people killed in WTC were definitely multi-millionaires, look at the details of the government payout and how it was determined. It sickens me, but those who had higher earning potenial got more payout money, in some cases a lot more.
Don't talk about things you have no knowledge of. Indeed.
If you have a "working stiff" back-office job in the US you are among the wealthiest people in the planet. Top 5% for sure, probably top 2%.
Nonsense. The US has a population of roughly 300 million people which is roughly 5% of the global population. What you just said is that even the poorest person in the US is richer than almost anyone else in the world. Complete nonsense and easily debunked with about 10 seconds of searching on Google or Wikipedia. Yes, those who live here are generally quite well off, but your "numbers" are ludicrously wrong.
And they had a trio of very polite guards with MP5s present when they pick someone out for extra scrutiny. It's fun tearing a notebook down so they can X-Ray the individual components at gunpoint...... The one talking to me didn't point his weapon at me, but the hot chick with him had hers trained on me, discreetly, throughout the process.
Though I must emphasize, they were incredibly polite and as terrified as I was while it happened, it did encourage full cooperation.
Please remove your notebook from the bag (before it was commonly required to do so). Please remove the other things from your computer bag and send those through one at a time. Do you mind turning your computer on? Please remove the battery and send it through the machine alone. Are those modular drive bays? (me yes) Please remove the drives and send those through the machine individually. Please send what's left of the notebook through. Don't worry, your plane will not leave without you. Please put all the pieces back together and turn it back on. Thank you so much for your time, you can now put everything back. We appreciate your help, you are helping us to recognize the components of your computer on the X-Ray machine.
To their credit, they did hold my plane throughout the 15 minute ordeal and were exceedingly polite throughout.
By induction, don't even bother getting up from your seat to go to the airport.
There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
Sooo... Next we'll have all the passengers traveling nude? Think: Two Chemicals. Two Implants. Twist nipples to activate. Big Boobed Bombers. Besides, if you want to save the planet aren't you supposed to avoid air travel?
...and it pisses me off. We had to sit in our seats, not touch our stuff, and simply wait for an hour while the plane lands. I fail to see what the idea is behind this. I do see one reason for the next holiday to the US to divert to a different (read: less anal...) country. I'm still looking for ways to file a complaint on this, if anyone has an idea post a reply.
If everyone had my attitude towards it, the law would be dropped instantly. Instead, you would rather be a goddamn sheep with a cattle-prod stuck up your ass and say, "Ya' S'ah" whenever the powers that be tell you to suck their cock!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
What the fuck? You're somehow making an article about terrorism into a Microsoft rant.
Get the fuck out. Seriously.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
If you read the article and scroll down, you will see the bit about wanting security measures to be unpredictable and that different airports would have different security measures.
This just blew the cover off any illusion of a professional response. Weakest link anyone?
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
None of the measures nor the mindless beauracsy erected post Sept. 11 2001 is effective or benefitical to "security", be it traval or national.
The function of the Transportation Security Agency and its overseer the Department of Homeland Security is to provide people who would be otherwise unemployable, given their mental instabilities, and incompetencies, a job, thus helping to keep these otherwise loathsome characters from trolling the back neighborhoods of the U.S.A. looking for toodles to molest, or the elderly to rob, for instance.
This not withstanding, the first casulity, other than the happles Nigerian Twit, of what may become the "Christmas Day Terror Plot" will be our dearly beloved Janet Napolitano, Super Genius Brain of the Dept. of Homeland Security (one of the minions of mentally unstable incompetents lurking the halls of the Federal Government).
People who travel by air line carriers will not put up with the TSA Twits or the Twit 'n Chief Barak Obama much longer before outright rebellion occurs.
Angry and Pissed-Off mods are forming at the Gates to deal harshly with the Idots at the Gates. The Idiots will not be forgiven.
We said, "Hand over these people who are terrorists." They said, "No, unless you provide us with evidence." And someone with your mentality said, "They're non westerners, so their lives are worthless. Let's tell the public that there's no way they would accept the evidence, even if we had any. Proceed with the invasion."
Heck, I drove 20 hours to a customer's site once because air travel would have been too difficult given the circumstances. Driving wasn't too bad, on the other hand.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I am a Finnish computer science student and planned to visit USA for six to twelve months as an exchange student. I then decided against it due to the security procedures and am instead leaving to Germany next fall.
Whether they are nice at the airport is one thing but important one if you'll only be there a few days. I however am largely turned off by the thought of having to go through an interview process, having to tell them what I'll be doing, who I'll be seeing, where I'll be living... And I can only imagine what the questions would be like after they would find out that I belong to the communist party.
When you are a peaceful person (pacifist in my case) and legally enter another civilized, democratic country, you should not need to fill out half a dozen forms and tell the country's officials everything about where you'll be staying, who'll you meet... Not to mention interviews. So I chose Germany: I can travel there with no other documents than personal ID card (which I always carry in my wallet anyways) and that's pretty much it.
I drive. Honestly, though this is ridiculously stupid, why should I care? Why would I even bother to file a complaint?
I have relatives about 1500 miles east of me. The last time I visited them, I drove, and had a wonderful time doing it. I haven't flown since 2005, and even then, it was a miserable experience, without even getting into the airport security fiasco.
Look, this is exactly the reason why we have a free market. This is the reason why bailing out corporations is bad policy. The airlines will either figure out how to make flying fun again, or they'll go out of business. It's not my job to tell the airlines and TSA all of the problems with their service; it's their job to figure out how to entice me to fly, rather than drive. Bankrupting inefficient or unresponsive firms is *how* the free market guarantees customer satisfaction.
So far, they aren't doing a very good job. But I could care less. It's not my problem - it's theirs.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Plus he had 80 grams, which is something like what, 1/4 pound of TNT? Is that enough to bring down a plane?
Just give some sleeping dose to all passengers till the flight reaches its destination.
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
Before I get a bunch of balloons and a lawn chair together, do you pick up hitchhikers if they're at your approximate altitude?
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
The interview is the major part of Israeli security - they have algorithms, and they _work_. In Israel they're allowed to profile without being jumped on, and they do it to great effect. Read "Unsafe at Any Altitude" (http://www.amazon.com/Unsafe-Any-Altitude-Exposing-Illusion/dp/1586421360).
When the 5000 laptops stolen a week from the baggage is at zero, I'll feel like airport security is doing it job.
BTW, Hell, I'd rather drive for 20 hours than fly. I can listen to my music, stop and eat. Look at the sights, oh, and use my phone, and my car never cancels my flight due to over booking, sits on the tarmac for 6 hours, 8 hour layovers, or has crying babies. Plus no rental cars needed when I get there. Road trips are so much better than flying.
Even with gas prices, its cheaper to fly sometimes. And my car seats are better than first class.
They need to remove the SFRA over Washington and the silly restrictions around the POTUS. Nobody has used a GA aircraft in a terrorist attack anywhere in the world. All of these restrictions is just a waste of money and a compromise on freedom for security. We don't even get the security.
There is also a move to put TSA style restrictions at an airport near you. Certainly very likely to be put in place at least one of the airports that you fly into. That means you wouldn't be able to back your car up to your 182 anymore... No Sirree! You would have to go to a dude to make you take your shoes off, go through the normal screening. We're fighting it. I sincerely hope it doesn't happen. Totally useless to screen us. They would spend their money FAR better to secure our boarder with Mexico instead. As bad as normal cops that pull people over for speeding instead of busting people breaking into houses or putting Identity thieves in jail.
So, no going to the toilet for the last hour? Time to break out black pants, and let the airlines handle the "cleaning bills".
sacrificing morality for quality of life is EVIL.
I suggest you evangelize this viewpoint to five African tribes fighting over the arable land available, only enough to feed one of them.
Do I have a point? Yes. Sometimes, it's "us or them". Resorting to evil may be necessary for survival.
Then again, I'm probably making your point: by having to resort to tribes in Africa, I'm implicitly saying that in the rich western societies, you can uphold a high moral standard without having to fear for your life. We can the go on to quibble about pleasure and convenience.
(I like to smoke inside my dorm room, especially during the winter. The tapestry might be smelly, and the next occupant might not like that. Am I being a rude, selfish bastard, disrespecting my fellow human beings? I am being selfish, and I am doing something another person might not like, but there's broad consensus that what I'm doing is OK. How broad does the consensus need to be? <can-of-worms>...)
Actually, Do the proposed security measures really address the terrorist attack?
I'm reading TSA is even forbidding the use of any radio emitter (a.k.a WiFi laptop) during the last flight hour. Didn't the terrorist use a small bag and a syringe?
It seems that there is again some hysteria in the air...
but she said the measures "are designed to be unpredictable, so passengers should not expect to see the same thing everywhere."
This just makes it too easy.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
Flying yesterday on 2 short Continental flights the pillows and blankets had been removed. FAs said it was new policy.
A pile of explosives goes poof with a flash and some flame. That's it. Even a really big pile. A pile of explosives in a very solid tube with one end open is a gun, which can shoot stuff out of the open end. A pile of explosives in a sealed container is a bomb, and can build up enough pressure to blow holes in things.
Incorrect, sir. Any decent high explosive does not need a sealed container. What happened more likely is that the explosive deflagrated rather than detonated... aka it burned his pants but didn't actually blow up anything.
Deplaning.
*ducks*
(important if you're concerned about terrorists setting off bombs while waiting in a densely packed line).
I've wondered about that. You're not screened before that so you could pretty much get away with whatever. Or suicide bombings in any given crowded place. We've been particularly fortunate in that regard given how much crap Israel has had to put up with. There would seem to be so many targets that are wide open that protecting airplanes specifically borders on ridiculous.
I mean, look what those two guys did with a sniper rifle and some training a few years back on the East coast. Mega-terror on the cheap right there.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it's not worse, but I have a hard time seeing how it's now worse if terrorist organizations are as serious about this as the claim to be.
I guess I wasn't considering something like a shaped charge or a well manufactured plastic explosive when I said that. The guy tried to mix a binary explosive in a bathroom....not exactly "Any decent high explosive". While the raw materials and formulation might have had potential, the final mixing doomed it. However, had he been able to seal it up, even that much might have had the kick to do some damage.
I went through three airports today, and just had to laugh. (Inside the US all the way.) One guy gets through screening in Amsterdam, and we have a security panic in the US. It's facepalm material. It's almost like we're trying very hard to find a problem here, even when it's shown to not be here.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor