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US Grants Home Schooling German Family Political Asylum
A US judge has granted political asylum to a family who said they fled Germany to avoid persecution for home schooling their children. Uwe Romeike and his wife, Hannelore, moved to Tennessee after German authorities fined them for keeping their children out of school and sent police to escort them to classes. Mike Connelly, attorney for the Home School Legal Defence Association, argued the case. He says, "Home schoolers in Germany are a particular social group, which is one of the protected grounds under the asylum law. This judge looked at the evidence, he heard their testimony, and he felt that the way Germany is treating home schoolers is wrong. The rights being violated here are basic human rights."
While interesting on a social or educational perspective, what has this to do with 'news for nerds'? There isn't anything technical about this. Nothing geeky. It's just a random news story you'd find on Yahoo News (for example)...
after weird gets weirder where do you go?
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
The "homeschooling" angle is a bit hard to grok as a fundamental HR, perhaps it is the religious aspect he means?
I think the pilgrims on the Mayflower would be totally sympathetic in that case.
I homeschooled one of my boys for 2 years when his schooling was turning into a disaster. I mainstreamed him afterwards and he is now doing ok. Imagine some gov thugs hauling him away for that?!
Germany has school duty for all children older than six years up to 9 to 12 years in school (depends on the actual state). And "duty" means that a state examined teacher is required for schooling. You want home schooling? Then get the exam, and you are perfectly fine schooling your children at home.
That's a brilliant way to get you and your family into the US without having to resort to hiding in a shipping container or over staying a visitor's visa and then buying a fake identity.
FTFA:
In 2006 the Romeikes pulled their children out of a state school in Bissingen, Germany, in protest of what they deemed an anti-Christian curriculum.
They said textbooks presented ideas and language that conflicted with their Christian beliefs, including slang terms for sex acts and images of vampires and witches, while the school offered what they described as ethics lessons from Islam, Buddhism and other religions.
Well, obviously other religions can't offer any ethical guidance, and exposing the kids to them will clearly cause them to hate Christianity. Better not even expose them to other thoughts! And the best place to go for that? Here in the US.
We know we're friends and all now... and you've grown up quite a bit, but still... prooobably shouldn't be taking risks with the whole (human rights) thing. Won't look good.
It's always confirmation bias!
This is a very sensible verdict frankly, because no other developed western country stops you from educating your children yourself, which frankly would end up with more focused and ambitious, albeit potenially socially awkward children.
The only stipulation here is that the kids are taught in a classroom setting by certified teachers according to a strict curriculum. Any additional schooling a parent might want to do can be done before or after school and on weekends.
Parents have plenty of rights, but the right to destroy their kid's future by teaching them anti-science and borderline racist interpretations of history ought not be one. We have whole states here in the US that are filled with nincompoops because of homeschooling. Homeschooling begets more homeschooling in an endless cycle. When you try to push morals and religion into education you end up with none of the above.
... to all the people who have education problems in other countries? I think we should: all afghani girls who for years could not go to school (did we give asylum to all that requested?), all the africans who cannot go to school because of social problems (did we give asylum to all that requested?), etc. Clearly shows how racist and politically biased the courts are: a group of (likely) right wing white people always get precedence over some poor 3rd world, brown-skinned, poor fellow...
I homeschool my kids. In Texas the laws for home-schooling are quite permissive, since Texas has so many religious whack-jobs. We are required to teach the "basic educational goals of reading, spelling, grammar, math, and a study of good citizenship" -- language from the original statute authorizing private schools. No requirements to teach teh nasty atheist science.
In the 1980s Arlington ISD pulled the same stunt as the German authorities in the article did. The family went to court (Leeper v. Arlington ISD), squandered a fortune, and eventually won a major smack-down to the school district. Since then, we homeschoolers have mostly been left alone. Occasionally a truant officer may harass the kids if they are outside during school hours, but homeschool organizations give instruction to the parents in how to handle the discussion with the truant officer.
We have to keep a basic record of what we taught and when, in case we are challenged about whether we are meeting the "basic educational goals..." listed above, but I do that anyway so that I know what to review later. It's a piece of cake. I can't believe I used to think homeschooling was a scarey responsibility; today I find it equally scarey to trust my sons' minds to a public edifice.
FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
Okay, so this particular family is helped. Great! Wonderful! What about the other families in Germany? Does this get bumped up to the UN?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
The family has money to burn why not have them spend it in the US?
I have difficulty believing that this qualifies under persecution. Every country has it's own particulars and peculiarities when it comes to things. It's not like they are being treated unfairly and denied basic human rights. Oh wait... the judge feels that letting the parents choose to educate their children themselves is a 'basic human right'.
Considering the quality of education in North America versus the quality of education in Europe, I consider the Judge's decision to be laughable. I'd take a publicly mandated education from a European country over *anything* provided by the US.
Would Germany offer a reciprocal political asylum for those of us who have kids in the US public school system that want our children to have a better education?
From TFA, it appears that the actual basis for asylum here is freedom of religion, not freedom to home-school. The parents pulled their children from public school because they are fundamentalist Christians and objected to elements of the public school's curriculum, including sex education and morality lessons drawn from other religions. The German government apparently does not recognize a parent's right to "protect" children from opposing religious views through home-schooling, and intended to compel attendance. The US recognizes this as an aspect of free exercise of religion, which can form the basis for an asylum petition. Thus, they are actually obtaining asylum on religious persecution grounds. Whether these facts actually establish a valid instance of religious persecution or not is perhaps an important question; just because something is protected by the free exercise clause of the 1st amendment to the US Constitution does not mean it is necessarily a fundamental human right which should give rise to an asylum claim. Germany is not subject the the US Constitution.
I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
I don't have a problem with people home-schooling to improve the quality of education. I myself was home-schooled for several years.
I do, however, have a major issue with people pulling their children out of public school so they can be home-schooled according to religious criteria. I recognize this is a slippery slope, but based on what I've read so far I support the German government.
Religious freedom allows you to worship, but it does not in my mind give one free license to program children with it. Children are not property. Religious conflict with a secular school is not a valid reason for home-schooling.
Further, home schooled children should be subject to, at the very least, the same aptitude tests and subject material criteria as public school children. (Yes, I know most public school criteria and tests are a joke, but it's at least a starting point.)
Alter Aeon Multiclass MUD - http://www.alteraeon.com
White Europeans are a minority in this world, this is just Affirmative Action for White Europeans.
Good. Raising children is the job of parents, not the Government, and it should be perfectly ok for parents to opt out of the school system if it doesn't suit them for any reason. Fascistic governments hate the idea that parents have the freedom to teach their children whatever they want. In Britain we have seen the Government attempting to smear home educators by getting their mouthpieces to spread fear about unchecked child abuse. The pieces are being put into place for an outright ban, and the sad thing is that so-called "liberals" will probably support it on the grounds that it will stop "the children" being "brainwashed" about Jesus, not realising that they are undermining their own freedom to oppose the Government.
You're an immobile computer, remember?
the kids get indoctrinated at home by parents who are to make sure the kids will never stand a chance in any competitive way in the real world. Now maybe this Judge considers that a 'right' for the parents, but he sure as hell ain't thinking about the kids rights! Germany should kick the ambassador out. This is no concern of the USA and besides... USA talking about human rights in itself is an insult for anyone who cares about such rights. Feel free to disagree, bit -1 troll isn't the way to out it.
Ahm.. how do home schoolers count as a protectable social group if all they have in common is homeschooling?
I am not sure this is a good precedent. This same logic could be applied to any activity that is illegal in one country but legal here. "I do not want to follow the laws of my home country" should not be an automatic 'you can immigrate to the US' pass.
Germans make for good US citizens! They're white. A funny feeling tells me that the judge would not have sympathized with non-Caucasians and/or non-Europeans with the same problem.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
So in your view the only people who home school are racist or religious zealots? Since the majority of children are educated in public schools I would suggest the majority of nincompoops are from there instead. Children taught by the public system that they are special, its not their fault they don't study, no one is better than anyone else, and its not fair if you don't have stuff other people have.
Not all people home school do so because of religion, some do it because they to control the environment their children learn in, they want to give their children a leg up, they truly are that good. Whats next? Vilify people who send their children to private schools are elitist pricks who don't want to have their kids associate with people with the wrong skin color?
Its the blind hate people like you who are the problem, I would take a state full of home schooled kids over one of you.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
> Homeschooling is in no way a human right.
I totally disagree. It's the basic right to raise your children with your own views and values. Today that protects the "Christian Activists", but it also protects any family from being forced to have their children educated by the government.
If you think a government being able to force you to send your children to someplace to teach them what the government wants them to learn isn't a violation of a basic human right, then I don't know what kind of rights you think humans should have.
Homeschooling is in no way a human right.
Neither is state-funded healthcare, if you want to get technical.
Alright, I didn't think it would come to this on slashdot, but this must be understood.
For most families, homeschooling provides an option to help with constant travel (including military families), family changes, or just plain old bad local schools. I have a few friends who were home-schooled through HS, and they are some of the smartest and quickest people I know. In public school, classes move as fast as the slowest student (or just pass him/her by), at home, if you get it, you move on quickly and have plenty of time to be creative/play sports/do whatever.
This stigma against homeschooling has GOT to go already. Not all homeschoolers are teaching racial bias or inaccurate science. Not by far.
It's always confirmation bias!
They will get asylum if make it to the US and ask for it.
I mean the US is granting that its Political Asylum for this family because they didn't want their kids to go to school in Germany, they prefered home schooling, is basically what it boils down to. So the opposite of it would be extraditing, sending them back to Germany to pay for their crimes, this is the States way of saying: We will protect you if you flee Germany because you want to want to home school your children.
Now - I don't know what to think about all this. In one hand, I think Germany is its own sovereign nation and it should be allowed to run its country how it sees fits, however I also think that if people don't like the way the country is run they should be able to leave. So is this the best course of action? I mean the black and white of it is to send them Back to Germany - or to roll in with the tanks and reform the country (a popular choice lately). So this kind of lands in a semi-grey area which should make me happy.
But somehow I see this opening a whole new can of worms. Now Germany is going to restrict people flying to the U.S. - based on facts about children and schooling, and likewise, people might run away to the US claiming they are doing it for their children as opposed to some ulterior motive (other more heineous crimes).
This concise argument sums up the issues perfectly.
You're an immobile computer, remember?
You can leave the house for reasons aside from education. You should try it sometime. There are probably other human beings living within shouting distance of your internet pod. I bet some of them even have kids that your hypothetical brood could socialize with. Pro tip: telling them to shut the fuck up when they disagree with you is not really very polite.
Do you want to be friends?
... a great way to breed more socially retarded Slashdotters.
Well, they have to be made somewhere - God knows they'll never have the opportunity to reproduce once they become "socially retarded Slashdotters".
That is all.
Not just yet. TFA says that this case did not make it up to a sufficiently high court to set a precedent.
Homeschooling was originally banned in Germany by Adolf Hitler in the 1930s, when he wanted to make sure that all German children were indoctrinated in the ways of the Nazi party. The Hitler Youth was the result. Government schooling isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if a government is promoting/enforcing a radical worldview, most if not all of the kids in the school system will pick it up. Like evolution.
How many homeschoolers have you people interacted with anyway? This looks like a case where you've never ever actually met one except that bad kid in the back who argues with the biology professor, who turns out to be one. You then gleefully stereotype every homeschooled kid with that same stamp, along with a few horrific rumours you imagined or picked up on the internet.
I realize there are bad cases out there, but most homeschoolers are never going to be noticed in the end because they turn out just like everybody else. They go on to get normal jobs and like like normal people. There are plenty of cases I could name where people educated in your public schools turn out to be welfare freeloaders and deadbeats.
I'm so glad I live in Canada where homeschooling is actually supported by the government and treated with marginal respect.
Now look, I've refrained from profanity, calling you Nazis, and typing in all caps. All I want in return is to not be treated like some sort of slime because I didn't grow up inside the walls of your public education system.
[/homeschooledkid]
Germany should be happy to get rid of its religious nutters.
I'll be happy when the US leaves the dark ages and adopts the French/German model, but we as a whole, parents and non-parents alike will have to actually put some effort into caring about education before that happens. Sure, many to most of the homeschoolers have good intentions, but the kids end up harmed on the whole.
Oh please. Your children are not your personal property to shape in your image. You cannot beat them, and you cannot brainwash them. They have rights, too. And everyone else is going to be affected by your retarded parenting decisions down the road, because we're all part of a society and you can't escape that. Well, unless you live in the mountains away from all other humans. If you do that, well, I don't care what you do.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
But that's not the issue at hand. You are perfectly allowed in Germany to send your children to a private school or even home school them. You just have to warrant that they get something the law recognizes as "education", and this is defined in Germany as "being educated by an examined teacher". The family Romeike wasn't able to name a teacher for their children who got the required exams, and thus the verdict was that they couldn't prove they educate their children at all, which is criminal negligence.
How many requested asylum?
Only if you assume that "the courts" are a monolithic entity.
Why am I not surprised that they ended up in Tennessee?
This ain't rocket surgery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Paolini
Home schooled, graduated HS at 15, 3 published books, 20 million sold. I know close to a half dozen like him thru fencing (foil & epee) - usually 1 or 2 years ahead of peers. Makes you wonder just how screwed up our school systems really are.
Completely agree, while many homeschoolers might be doing it to force Christianity onto their children.
This basic human right also prevents a pro religion government from forcing your kids to learn from a Christian/Muslim/etc. viewpoint.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
And so we hand our children off to the same government that's digging itself trillions of dollars into debt and absolutely botching it's international reputation to be brought up as productive members of society.
We're doomed.
There is nothing wrong with homeschooling at all. And you will always find an example of a single person who ran fine with a certain type of education. All the german law requires is that the education is done by an examined teacher.
Yes, what a shame that their kids aren't allowed to go to school with a bunch of gang-bangers and be forced to join a street gang for fear of being beaten.
Germany sensibly determined that Scientology is a cult and outlawed it, while the US has raised it to the status of religion and given it tax-exempt status. The Germans also happen to believe that children deserve a basic education that reaches certain objective standards. Nothing prevents parents from adding to that education.
Any further comment would be superfluous.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
For those that oppose home-schooling, do they seriously think that the government does a great job of educating children? I can't believe there are so many that oppose home-schooling, yet Slashdotters in general rail on the poor quality of the American education system.
To me, home-schooling is a great alternative. Parents in general care the most about their children, not the government. Obviously there are the exception (child abusers, etc.), but that's not necessarily an argument to ban all home-schooling outright.
Seems like as long as the children can pass the standardized tests (SAT, etc.), we should support it. In fact, studies have been done that show that home-schoolers often do better than public school students. For example:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp
Anecdotally, my sister found that some colleges actually prefer home-schoolers for this reason.
"The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right." - Henrik Ibsen
I totally disagree. It's the basic right to raise your children with your own views and values
<sarcasm>You are sooo right. I feel so enraged to be denied to teach my children the basic necessary hatred against Americans. How could they ever learn that the highest achievement a person can have is to eradicate Americans in concentration camps? Here is no higher value that that.</sarcasm>
So from which viewpoint can you conclude that it is a basic right to have absolute control over your children?
Should we treat children as objects owned by their parents or individual human beings? Individual human beings should have the basic right to develop themselves, pursuit of happiness. So what if I choose to teach my kids just enough that they can work on my farm and never question my authority? Should you be able to force your daughter at the age of 13 to marry a guy over 50 like in some countries?
What a crazy state society is in when people believe it is "activism" to claim a person has an innate right to their lives and their values, free from force.
So should I have left my kid in the school where the other kids kept shoving him down? The admin refused to do anything going so far as to say that he could not be transfered to another school because of the color of his skin. Is that just?
These are religious nutters. And let's face it, the US doesn't need any more of those.
But the USA's whole history is based on Europe sending you our religious nutters! If we can't send them to the USA, where can we send them?
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
My sister, far from a religious extremist, and then the local PTA president, decided to home school her 3 boys when the school failed to take action on a sexual complaint. Basically, there was an older boy, 5th grade, that was exploring other kids at the school. When he was caught red handed, the school decided "counciling" was more appropriate. 2 years later, when the boy was ARRESTED, she put her kids back into the school system.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
In the really old days, the parents would teach their children the tools for survival. Typically the father would teach his sons his own trade, the mother would teach the daughters how to be good mothers. ...
Given this model, how would an artistic or tradeskill oriented education stack up on a standardized test?
Lets see
She can can create $50,000 sculptures in a month, but she fails at geography and her english is poor?
He can create a couch from scratch, frame, stuffing, upholstery in 2 weeks, but is doing poorly on trigonometry?
She is bringing in $20k a month on her acting/singing career at the age of 12, but
Our education system is geared towards creating a lot of very similar minded people with boringly similar skill sets. No wonder we no longer have "mechanical geniuses", Renaissance men.
I'd say standardized tests would be all right, but there are a TON of things you can't test for that are very usable real world skills. Homeschooling is a way to break out of this clone world we live in filled with fashion barbies and "All-American" quarterbacks.
My brother has Aspergers. What I see as his biggest hindrance to being more successful is that everyone is trying to make him adjust to being normal. As a society instead of ostracizing those we don't understand, we should encourage them to contribute in their own special way.
http://www.godtellsus.com/aboutraisingchildren.html
They also are not property of the state to brainwash under the guise of "protecting their rights".
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
I'm not sure there is less social isolation in a school than home schooled + sports/scouts/etc. From at least 2nd grade on, (can't remember much about social interaction in 1st or kindergarden) there were cliques and usually a few students that were unwelcome among any of them. It probably is helpful to remove them from that situation and allow them to grow among groups where they may be more accepted.
Why should you have the right to brainwash someone just because they were unfortunate enough to be your crotchspawn?
Let them make their own fucking choices.
Who gives a shit about poor 3rd world, brown-skinneds? Clearly not me, an educated and employed 1st world white-skinned. Am I right?
As a white man that's been raised in times where it's politically correct and socially acceptable to be racist against white people, can someone give me one good reason why I should care about all the racist brown people? You poor 3rd world brown people make my life harder than it needs to be. For example, you bring diseases back into this country that my ancestors spent hundreds of millions of dollars and countless hours of research to rid our population of. You come to live here through illegal means and drive working wages down to the point our legal citizens can no longer afford to live in the country they were born and raised in. You put unwanted burden on every social program the country has.
Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses. Right? Illegal immigrant impoverished brown people probably wouldn't be such racists if they did give themselves to our society. The reason it's a complete failure and why it puts an inordinate amount of stress on us is precisely because they don't give themselves to us, they take their proceeds and send them out of the country where $3/hr lets their family live like royalty, while we could never afford the basic necessities to live on that. They subsidize their temporary housing while raping us here by living 10+ people per 2bdr apartment, something 99.99% of us legals could rarely do. They pay into the social security accounts of the deceased.
So really, if we've giving +5 insightful mods to clearly racist ideas, where's my +5 insightful for pointing out all the realities of ANY person in a 1st world dealing with droves of poor, sick, 3rd world people infesting their society? Regardless of anyone's skin color.
Yea, I bet if a mostly black country had a natural disaster, say an earthquake, 'they' would never make streamlined immigration services available to them.
Okay, maybe not your views and values, but the statement was meant more generally.
Last post!
dissatisfied with the dull slow lowest-common-denominator pop-psychology politically-correct schlock ladled out at public schools
Same old same old. As usual, when someone doles out the "politically correct" label, it is simply because you want your OWN brand of political correctness to be favored. In this case, you want to teach your kids your own pop psychology, no doubt involving lots of bullshit about "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" that worked so well for the 60's generation.
Finally, a decent reason to have a manned space program!
And so you are forcing your kids to learn what you want them to learn.
What freedom do your kids have?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
And everyone else is going to be affected by your retarded parenting decisions down the road, because we're all part of a society and you can't escape that.
That's a valid point, except there's no guarantee that our children won't be getting retarded "parenting" decisions in a public school too. In fact, I'd argue very strongly that they currently are.
But while they may also be getting retarded education at home at least it's a different style of retarded education. And as a whole, diversity is a positive thing for any society.
This judge feels for the family, but it's a gross violation of the law. Homeschooling is in no way a human right. I'm all for immigration, but this family doesn't even come close to making the cut.
Left wing liberal nut jobs make me sick.
How exactly is home education not a human right? My parents created me by copulating, my mother carried me to term in her womb, and finally gave birth to me. She is the supreme architect of my life. My mother and father taught me the first things I learned in life. I would imagine that I am not unique in that.
It is clearly a human right.
> I totally disagree. It's the basic right to raise your children with your own views and values
I'm not sure about that. I think there are alot of kids that need to be "protected" from their parents. There are alot of broken homes and whako parents out there.
What if the parents where alcoholics, child abusers, fanatics... and decide their children should be tought at home? Then the kids will have no chance of escaping or
communicating their situation as they would be effectively cut off any outside influences.
School is not just about teaching, but also about monitoring children. Making sure they are developing well and detecting any social problems they might have with themselves or at home.
If you think that there is anything inherently good about public schools you first need to read this essay, then read a book written by a public school teacher of 20 years.
The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher
by John Taylor Gatto, New York State Teacher of the Year, 1991
Call me Mr. Gatto, please. Twenty-six years ago, having nothing better to do, I tried my hand at schoolteaching. My license certifies me as an instructor of English language and literature, but that isn't what I do at all. What I teach is school, and I win awards doing it.
Teaching means many different things, but six lessons are common to schoolteaching from Harlem to Hollywood. You pay for these lessons in more ways than you can imagine, so you might as well know what they are:
The first lesson I teach is: "Stay in the class where you belong." I don't know who decides that my kids belong there but that's not my business. The children are numbered so that if any get away they can be returned to the right class. Over the years the variety of ways children are numbered has increased dramatically, until it is hard to see the human being under the burden of the numbers each carries. Numbering children is a big and very profitable business, though what the business is designed to accomplish is elusive.
In any case, again, that's not my business. My job is to make the kids like it -- being locked in together, I mean -- or at the minimum, endure it. If things go well, the kids can't imagine themselves anywhere else; they envy and fear the better classes and have contempt for the dumber classes. So the class mostly keeps itself in good marching order. That's the real lesson of any rigged competition like school. You come to know your place.
Nevertheless, in spite of the overall blueprint, I make an effort to urge children to higher levels of test success, promising eventual transfer from the lower-level class as a reward. I insinuate that the day will come when an employer will hire them on the basis of test scores, even though my own experience is that employers are (rightly) indifferent to such things. I never lie outright, but I've come to see that truth and [school]teaching are incompatible.
The lesson of numbered classes is that there is no way out of your class except by magic. Until that happens you must stay where you are put.
The second lesson I teach kids is to turn on and off like a light switch. I demand that they become totally involved in my lessons, jumping up and down in their seats with anticipation, competing vigorously with each other for my favor. But when the bell rings I insist that they drop the work at once and proceed quickly to the next work station. Nothing important is ever finished in my class, nor in any other class I know of.
The lesson of bells is that no work is worth finishing, so why care too deeply about anything? Bells are the secret logic of schooltime; their argument is inexorable; bells destroy past and future, converting every interval into a sameness, as an abstract map makes every living mountain and river the same even though they are not. Bells inoculate each undertaking with indifference.
The third lesson I teach you is to surrender your will to a predestined chain of command. Rights may be granted or withheld, by authority, without appeal. As a schoolteacher I intervene in many personal decisions, issuing a Pass for those I deem legitimate, or initiating a disciplinary confrontation for behavior that threatens my control. My judgments come thick and fast, because individuality is trying constantly to assert itself in my classroom. Individuality is a curse to all systems of classification, a contradiction of class theory.
Here are some common ways it shows up: children sneak away for a private moment in the toilet on the pretext of moving their bowels; they trick me out of a private instant in the hallway on the grounds that they need water. Sometimes free will appears right in front of
Thought so. Nevertheless, the statement is worthless. Even the most stupid fanatic would not freely admit nonsense like what I said before. So how do you ensure that something like that does not happen?
there's no good answer to this. who's the responsible, moral, educated, fair decision-maker as to what is the best education children can get? the parents or the state? frequently, neither. but sometimes, the parent, other times, the state. i myself, would bet on the state, especially if i lived in california, and if anything, complement the education at home or somewhere else. as to the germans, their education is fine, and i would rather leave them in germany, legel precedents of political asylum notwithstanding. as to what this has to with linux, programming, and the internet, and /. -- nada.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
whoops. Wasn't logged in.
Just posting this comment to keep track of my AC comment. -ignore me
But think about the children! What about their rights?
The real answer is that, yes, government must be able to force you to send your kids to a government school, so that kids can be protected from crazy parents. At the same time, parents must be able to teach their kids whatever they want, so that kids can be protected from crazy governments.
Personally, I trust the kids to make a good decision most of the time after they've seen both.
"He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future."
Adolf Hitler
"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think."
Adolf Hitler
These two quotes alone are worth getting a child out of public schools and into private, religious, or home schools. It is very bad for the government to have total control of all child education, the freedom to teach your child in the way you think is best is a big part of what keeps the US government in check, they don't own the youth.
DEMETRIUS: Villain, what hast thou done?
AARON: Villain, I have done thy mother.
Shakespeare invents 'your mom'
Wonder what brainded fanatic modded you troll. Too bad I already posted in this thread. This is definitely worth an 'insightful' and the 'troll' an abuse.
Homeschooling is in no way a human right.
Pardon? As long as the schooling meets minimum state testing requirements, it is and should always be the right of the parents to choose whether to put their child in public school, private school, or homeschool. Depending on where you go, the public or private school education available in your area may involve significant amounts of religious and philosophical propaganda which you won't necessarily want your young child subjected to, even here in the US where that isn't supposed to happen. What's important is that the child ends up getting a testably equivalent (or better) education to what public schooling provides, not that they be forced into attending a state-approved facility.
There are many people, particularly in the US, who would argue that you are utterly wrong on this point, and the law is behind them. Quite a lot of the folks who support homeschooling are NOT right-wing religious nuts, as you seem to imply with your subject line.
> Homeschooling is in no way a human right.
I totally disagree. It's the basic right to raise your children with your own views and values. Today that protects the "Christian Activists", but it also protects any family from being forced to have their children educated by the government.
And getting a decent education, no mater if your parents are nutcases is not a human right?
While I feel for the family, I also think that if there's families out there who deserved asylum more. You know, in countries where they get shot at, maybe?
Do you often publicly admit to taking guidance from "funny feelings"?
White Europeans are a minority in this world, this is just Affirmative Action for White Europeans.
It's odd that this is modded "insightful". I'll grant "funny", which is what the poster surely intended. Any small group is a minority. Consider how few Fortune 500 CEOs there are. Do they need affirmative action?
And just to defuse the inevitable "state tells your kids what to think", while I can't speak for Germany's laws, the required curriculum for Canada was amazingly lax, and I'd be concerned at any parent who didn't want their kids learning it. It was literally the pure basics. Reading (and not *what*, just that they *can*). Writing. Math. I'm not even positive there was a social studies, history, or science component. GED-level stuff.
Speaking as someone who was homeschooled for religious reasons, I thought that it was excellent social and mental preparation for life. I share the sentiment against education based on religious propaganda, I just don't think it is worse than traditional American education.
The main advantage for me was social. When I went to college, I was extremely disturbed by the herd mentality exhibited by most of the other students, whose main goal in life was to look macho for their friends. (primarily by getting drunk and taking advantage of females) I certainly felt better equipped to deal with peer-pressure than the average student was. When you have friendships with people in every age bracket, it's way easier to stay grounded than when all of your friends are the same exact age.
I can't say that far right ultra-religious education is a good thing, but the artificially age-segregated traditional school certainly doesn't seem like a lesser evil to me.
Furthermore, I think independent thinking is more encouraged by homeschooling than one might imagine. I had to learn to learn on my own, an extremely valuable skill. Creationist propaganda gave me the discipline of questioning seemingly obvious conclusions. This gave me the mental tools (and the balls) to question the creationist propaganda itself, as well as many other things that I had previously accepted without question.
Look, I don't think government schools are the holy grail and think alternative methods of teaching in private schools can offer good alternatives. But with the danger of invoking the "think of the children" argument, refusing to teach them major and important topics of life and the world around them is a very special kind of child abuse. If you seriously think the government should take no action to ensure children get at least a minimum level of education, then I strongly disagree with you. The whole argument reminds me very much of parents that neglect or abuse their kids and cry foul on any intervention from the government because they're the parents and think that makes them lord and master over their children.
Since you speak of human rights, perhaps a few quotes from Convention on the Rights of the Child:
1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity, they shall, in particular:
(a) Make primary education compulsory and available free to all;
2. No part of the present article or article 28 shall be construed so as to interfere with the liberty of individuals and bodies to establish and direct educational institutions, subject always to the observance of the principle set forth in paragraph 1 of the present article and to the requirements that the education given in such institutions shall conform to such minimum standards as may be laid down by the State.
It should be large clue that these are Christians refusing the education done in a heavily Christian country (64% christian, 30% no registered religion, 5% muslim), they're hardly evangelizing other religions. They're refusing because their children could even hear about other religions. Or about this whole nasty business of having sex, I'm sure they'll stick their heads in the sand until their daughters come home pregnant. To be honest, sometimes you should worry more about the parents than the government...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Education and medical care are some of the basics provided in a modern civilised society.
They are pretty similar to the state providing such things as police to catch criminals, sewers and rules for driving on the road.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
The problem with granting children adult rights is that they don't have adult responsibilities.
The state has no stake in brainwashing children. If you think so, you probably also believe in UFOs and that the US gov was behind 9/11.
Perhaps it has mild stake in keeping them ignorant, but you can augment their education as much as you like while simultaneously allowing them to attend a regular school.
It's a little different in the vis-versa situation. The parent has personal prejudices and a personal agenda, which can be good for traditional 'learning', but also very bad for the growth of independent ideas.
In fact, I'd argue that being exposed to conflicting viewpoints, socialization, and independent thought is much, much more important than being book smart. The latter makes you ace tests; the former makes you ace life.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
I got a friend who also 'graduate high school' at 15 via home schooling through American School of Correspondence. I often brags about how ridiculously easy it was to game the system. Basically every test is open book. And since it was all done at his home, his 'book' was Google. I says he would literally get an entire years worth of schoolwork done in a month or two. Biggest benefit for him is being able to put on his resume he 'graduated high school at 15'. People automatically assume he's way ahead of the curve intellectually (he certainly is not) and it has helped his career. He has been offered opportunities that others his age only dream of. Pretty good angle actually.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
FWIW, the National Spelling Bee has been dominated Statistically, the case that home-schoolers average far better than public-schoolers is iron-clad.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
From time to time we hear news about parents who do not want to get their children medically treated, even if they suffer of serious diseases. This is a human right, too, isn't it? The doctors in the hospital are all quacks, aren't they? I find the whole concept of parents determining childrens faith and beliefs questionable. Transporting values by giving a good example, ok. But forcing membership in a religion by dubbing the little lads before they even know what's going on? That's perverse.
I take it you went to public school. But despite that exalted education, you weren't able to overcome your own bigotry. Should we hold homeschoolers to a standard that public school cannot meet?
Your comments are highly offensive. You are making snap decisions and claims about homeschoolers and you don't know anything about them, save what you have learned from the hype in the news.
In addition, you instantly think that the solution to your perceived problem is to "outlaw home schooling". You want to see a revolution on your hands, just try it.
I was homeschooled as a child by religious parents. But they believed Franklin's statement that, "When Truth and Error have fair play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter." I only wish more secularists believed that. Instead they want the power of government to enforce their opinions.
Because of the vastly superior education I got in home schooling (which took about 3 hours a day, unlike public school's 7 hours... and they still can't get the kids to pass the tests), I was able to go to college at the age of 14. Being home schooled, I took the GED... and got the highest scores ever in my state. I went on to go to law school (having scored in the 98th percentile on the LSAT to get into law school) at a top ranked school and now I am a practicing attorney.
Now, do you think that I am going to send my kids to public school? Not on your life. And yet you want to outlaw it because the government can't guarantee that there won't be a "religious perspective". Not because I can't guarantee how I will educate my child, but because the government can't. So I'm punished for the government's failings. Is that how you view it? Well, guess what... that, coupled with your ignorant proclamations about homeschooling, makes you a bigot.
As an attorney, part of my practice is dealing with juvenile delinquents. When a juvenile is arrested or put on probation, who is expected to pay the court fees, bail, restitution, etc....? The 13 year-old who isn't allowed to work by law? No. It's the parent. Why? Because in our society we think that parents are responsible for the outcome of their child.
I wonder why that is. Public schooled children spend 7-8 hours every day in school, plus travel time too and from school of maybe another 1/2 hour, plus time the kid spends at home doing homework. And that's if the kid isn't involved in extra-curricular programs, which can take an extra 2 hours every day. The national average for time parents have available to spend with their school-age child is about 4 hours per day. So school gets them for 7-10 hours a day and parents get them for about 4 hours per day. And they want to blame the parents when the child screws up.
Apples to oranges. What a lone judge does is not equivalent to what the federal government does.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
Raised by two definitely "fundamentalist" (ie religious conservatives) who also happened to be engineers. Actually, rather hardcore engineers based on some of the projects I know they've worked on. At any rate, they homeschooled my wife who graduated with an extremely high GPA in Computer Science, a minor in Math, 3 credits from a minor in Physics and along the way when she took 3 sections of engineering Calculus, she not only got As in each section, but the professor remarked that she was quite possibly the best student he had in at least 10 years.
I know, what a shock that there are "fundamentalists" who don't regard Math as the arcane language in which "that thar Satanic science is writ in."
...from the indoctrination of “become an automate. Don’t think. Do repetitive stuff until all imagination is dead. Obey and don’t question your godlike know-everything teachers.”.
School in Germany stems directly from Bismarck’s idea, of creating something like an army training camp, but for children. To follow the then-ideal of obeying, being quiet and sitting still.
Of course it all stands and falls with if you actually offer them something better. Including the ability to make friends and have social training in the same age. I guess if a group of parents has a group of around 20+ children, and wants to teach modern concepts, like giving every part of the brain and of life equal time, teaching them independent free thought and how to have a secure sense of reality, then this is a really great thing.
But somehow I doubt that this is the case here. ;)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
This is great - now if I ever wanted to move to the US, I'd just violate some local laws that don't apply to the US and claim that I am a special group being prosecuted.
Hey don't blame me, IANAB
It has to do with the fact that in most jurisdictions, homeschooled kids being out and about during school is treated as prima facie evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the parents and can subject them to having their kids forced back into public schools or even taken away in some areas.
And the kids are told all about that, which is why they aren't entirely at ease.
I've dealt with several homeschooling peers; when they were adults they were perfectly fine at social interactions.
And do you have any indication that he is actually less educated than the average high school graduate? Did he go to college and do well or poorly? What?
Because based solely on what you've said it sounds like he's doing a hell of a lot better than most in that regard.
Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
Homeschooling is in no way a human right.
False.
Here's your first lesson in Human Rights: YOUR CHILDREN ARE **NOT** YOUR PROPERTY
The rights of the children to have a proper education trumps your right to "educate" them.
So, the state isn't doing a good job in education? It's a democracy, go and elect politicians that do a better job.
I found the official statement of the HSLDA:
http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/201001260.asp
Quote: "Germany is in the company of countries like China, North Korea and others where fundamental human rights are not respected. Germany’s behavior exposes the totalitarian character of the German school law that takes away a parent’s right to educate their children."
As citizen of Germany I can't believe, that an american judge (or someone else) compares Germany to China and North Korea when it comes to human rights. I haven't seen any public executions until now and i'm not suppressed in any way by my government.
For those who didn't know: Germany HAS a constitution. Some people should read it before they make such statements. It's even available as pdf for downloading:
https://www.btg-bestellservice.de/index.php?navi=1&subnavi=68&anr=80201000
(Click "Diesen Artikel können Sie hier direkt herunterladen" )
" but it does not in my mind give one free license to program children with it."
Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Our world would not have decended into so much evil as it has if parents taught their children of Jesus' love for them and taught them to demonstrate love for their neighbors. Are you really suggesting that there is something wrong with trying to raise one's children to love God and love their neighbors as themselves?
How much time do the parents of the participating kids force them to practice for their spelling bee? If you have 24h a day to devote yourself to get that irrelevant victory at the cost of your education then you are bound to have good results.
I totally disagree. You do not own the child and if you are not able to teach(pass teaching exam) you are not good enough to teach your children math/other stuff that other children are taught at school. I think you have to look at it from a point of view of a child and not assert ownerschip of him, like with your property.
No college. Just graduated and went to work at Starbucks until he was 18. Now he runs his own business selling Craigslist posting services; basically a Craigslist spammer. He and his wife live with her parents to get by. He has been given numerous management opportunities at various corporations over the years, due to his seeming brilliance, but he has blown them all because he has no experience working in a team or managing his time.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
... to all the people who have education problems in other countries? I think we should: all afghani girls who for years could not go to school (did we give asylum to all that requested?), all the africans who cannot go to school because of social problems (did we give asylum to all that requested?), etc.
So you think adding millions to a broken, overtaxed welfare system is a good idea? Who do you think would pay to fly them over? Who do you think would pay to clothe, shelter and feed them? Who do you think would pay to build the hundreds of new schools needed? Who do you think would pay to educate them? Considering Welfare and Social Security programs are already the majority of the US annual budget it sure as hell cant be the US, we don't have the money to expand that program so massively. And more importantly why should we give any money to help the people of other countries? It isn't the job of the US government to fix everyone Else's problems, we can't even fix our own educational system. I would be willing to bet you don't think we should be in Iraq or Afghanistan 'policing the world' so why should we going to Africa and fixing all of the problems there?
Clearly shows how racist and politically biased the courts are: a group of (likely) right wing white people always get precedence over some poor 3rd world, brown-skinned, poor fellow...
Why don't you look at some recent civil rights cases. I guarantee you will find that almost every time a white man with 10 years experience is promoted over a black man with 5 years experience the courts will find that the black mans civil rights were violated. But Affirmative Action, a system that does nothing but guarantee minorities will get into a job or college over a white person only because they are a minority not only is legal but considered socially responsible. I assure you if a college implemented a system where white students would be given extra points for being white and minorities wouldn't the courts would come down on them like the wrath of god.
Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whites_Only_Scholarship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_bake_sale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_discrimination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_quota
PS: I can assure you by throwing around the word racism so irresponsibly you are only serving to increase the racial divide in the US. Things like Affirmative Action, Hate Crimes Legislation and Frequent Civil Rights Litigation only serve to create an us vs. them mentality.
Could I get a second opinion on that Troll rating? I feel like my post was well written, on topic, and was devoid inflammatory language/intent.
Could someone explain to me how this is a Troll?
Since there seems to be quite a bit of talk about the advantages and disadvantages of home-schooling, I decided to offer my input as someone home-schooled from 1st-12th. I will be the first to admit that I a did not turn out the most "socially adept" individual on the plant, but I sincerely doubt that home-schooling is the greatest factor in that problem. Growing up as an introverted child, home-schooling gave me the chance to fall in love with learning outside of the scorn and rejection of my peers. I know that I would have gotten far more social interaction in public school, but I doubt that much of it would have been beneficial. I know that I am going mostly on representations of the treatment of nerdly social rejects, but I grew up in one of the roughest school districts in town and I doubt that my hypothetical fellow students would respect my disposition. My guess is that I would have grown up bullied and mocked, and that I would not have the calm environment were learning was encouraged, and my thinking could expand beyond what I was given.
I will admit that my parents had religious motivations in their choice to home-school me, but I was not raised in a way that squashed my ability to think beyond the bounds of the religious traditions given by my parents. Instead, I learned why they believe what they believe, and that not everyone believe as they do. I have a deep respect for the decision that they made, and I believe that it really was for my benefit.
The main point that I think most people misunderstand home-schooling parents on is that of the well being of their children. Those who oppose home-schooling do so on the basis of the well-being of the children, and those who support it do so for the well being of the children. The question becomes, who knows what is better for the children? Is it the state, trying to ensure that millions of children are provided with a proper education? Or is it the parent, that is willing to take the time and effort to see that their child is educated in a way that they see fit? I know that this is a horribly skewed measure, but what does my response say about my parent's education of me? Is it lacking in language skills, displaying a suffocation of outside culture deemed "Unchristian"? Is it close-minded, reflexively rejected new ideas? Have I not been exposed to the classic literature of our culture? I will admit my strangeness, and a certain social ineptitude, but I would doubt that home-schooling is more at fault than natural disposition. In home-schooling, I was able to find my strengths and weaknesses, then learn more of the graces of social interaction when I left for college. I am of the opinion that this allowed my to become a better person, unscarred by the society I grew up in. If you have read this far, I would like to thank you for withstanding my somewhat thick prose, and I will ask you to open your mind just a little bit wider, and try to see things from the side of both those inside, and those outside. For one cannot truely understand the debate until you know where both sides are coming from.
(If you're curious, I'm getting a masters in molecular biology)
Human Rights? Should I mention America's Patriot Act as a clear Human rights violation ?
This is pathetic. The German Governament, the evil beast that needs to be taken down.
You can quote all the studies you want, but speaking as someone who was ACTUALLY home-schooled from 6th through 12th grade, I can tell you that whatever efforts the parents make simply can't compare to being in a school for 8 hours a day.
I can of course only speak to my experience, but let me tell you my social skills suffered dramatically because of being home-schooled. Through those 6 or so years I was frequently lonely and had perhaps one or two friends throughout all my time there, whom I would see once a month when my mom took me to the school's teacher, who would evaluate my work and my education. My parents made some effort to help - I was on a baseball team throughout my time at home, but it was glaringly obvious how immature I was compared to others my age and so I made few friends.
Now, about those visits to the district education office (required in Riverside County at least); I looked forward to these less and less because most of the kids there were worse off than I was; shut-ins who didn't know how to talk, or attention-deprived obnoxious kids, and, call it a stereotype if you will, but there were plenty of crazy "fundie" parents keeping their kids out of the public schools whom I actually met. In one very poignant case I remember, the mom stepped in and refused to allow her son to read "Beowulf" because it contained "demonic ideas."
Of course, not all the parents were like that. But the kids more adapted to the environment would simply get away with not doing their work - usually by copying out of the solutions (we graded our own work - there would be spot-checking by the teacher but it was easy to get away with small inflations of one's grade).
I regret every year I spent in the program. When I got into college I was naieve, socially-shell-shocked and had trouble adapting. Perhaps it just wasn't for me, but in my opinion the majority of kids taken out of the schools learn less about life than necessary.
A valuable part of being in school was learning how to interact with new people, larger groups, and authority respectfully and responsibly.
I don't think any of my classmates ever convinced me they could interact respectfully with me---quite on the contrary. Instead, they taught me that if I make people dislike me they will make my life hell for eight years, and that I have no control over whether people like me or not.
And authorities? No authority figure ever earned my respect. Maybe if they had done something about the bullies, instead of blaming me for overreacting and telling me to {count to ten, take a deep breath, ignore the bullies, just walk away from them}.
So I didn't learn to interact respectfully and responsibly with new people, or large groups, or authorities, because none of them ever earned my respect. Instead I learned to seek out solitude and knowledge at the nearby public library (they had books and internets).
That worked fine, of course, until I started feeling a need to have sex with girls (and feel loved, and such). I had no clue about what to say and what to do, and I was afraid to try things out, because I had learned the consequences of people not liking me. So I went lonely and unloved for so unbearably long.
The world. So lonesome. So depressing. I want out.
This could happen to your children. Don't put them in those mad places. Put them somewhere where they can become whole human beings who have confidence in themselves, who can trust other people, and who have learned that they are loved and there will always be a helping hand. Don't let them become what I have become. Please. Spare them the pain.
Thank you for pointing this out. I have heard this absurd socialization argument many times. It is very strange if you think about it. Over the history of humanity, it is only very recently that children mainly interact with social groups very close to their age. It used to be that a child would learn a trade from their parents, and although they had friends/playmates, a lot of their time was spend with their parents. Early is US history, there were many one room school houses where children of all ages would be taught by a single teacher. Why do we think that public schools with near-age peers groups is "normal"?
I heard that a Canadian study on home schooling was recently released and they found very positive results. The results showed that home schooled children were better community citizens (charities, gave time, etc). The study found nothing wrong with their social skills.
Is that you Paul? Paul Feyerabend?
You have probably not met a lot of parents...
Sure they do. Children get tried as adults all the time if they commit a crime.
I resent that remark! I'm a socially retarded slashdotter, and I _have_ actually reproduced! Unfortunately, my daughter, although computer adept, is a jock, a cheerleader, and extremely popular with other kids! Where did I go wrong?!?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
So it is OK to blindly label an individual a racist, but not an entire government?
As a German, I can only say "good riddance" to these people. Unfortunately for the Americans, that's two more votes for Palin in 2012, or whatever carbon copy is nominated by the Republicans.
Floating in the black seas of infinity without a paddle.
Must be true then.
Did you control for parents' educational level? Did you control for the children's innate ability? I'm not sure if correlation equals causation. Shall I check wikipedia?
65% of people lie on surveys. At least, that's what the people who answered my survey said.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
You might have a point if you had a case example of someone from one of those countries who actually did get denied asylum based on the education system. It is very possible no one ever tried that, and thus you are making things up.
Qxe4
I would suppose the difference in opinion is rooted in the concept of a child. At one end of the spectrum people view children as possessions of the parents and on the other they are viewed as fully autonomous individuals. Homeschooling as a right meshes better with people on the former end of the spectrum, whereas the latter end would view education to be a basic right that should be handled by the best (unbiased) professionals the state can provide. Obviously few people are on the extremes, but there seems to be considerable variation as to where people stand.
Seeing that I have been through public, private, AND home schooling, and I come from an extended family of both gifted and special needs children where home schooling has been really beneficial, I feel the need to chime in.
Definitely not all home schoolers are home schooled because of religious fanaticism. If I had to guess, I would say that most home schooled children are schooled that way because of a poor education at public/private schools. That poor education can go both ways -- a gifted child might not be stimulated enough at school, or a child with learning disabilities might not be taught at their ability to learn.
Home schooling is news for nerds because it is a topic that hits close to home for many of us. Many Slashdot readers have been home schooled or will home school their children, and I would venture to guess that the reason for that is because most of us here are not normal. Most of us here were not the popular kids at school, and while others preoccupied themselves with sleeping with as many people as possible or skateboarding, many of us watched the Discovery Channel.
Home schooling in and of itself isn't bad. Freedom to teach whatever you want lies at the very heart of home schooling. Parents are free to choose how to educate their children. There will be bad parents, average parents, and great parents, and passing legislation through in order to stop bad parents from badly parenting is as bad of an idea as passing legislation in order to stop parents from teaching children weird religions.
I, myself, have been home schooled, and I have also gone to public and private schools. I have met many people that were horrified that my parents could do something so terrible as to home school me; those sorts of people usually insinuate that home schooling destroys a child's capacity to interact with others socially and ruins them for the real world. In fact, with siblings 6 and 8 years my senior, I have always acted two or three grades more mature than my age, leaving me constantly outcast at typical schools. Being interested in science also further outcast me from having friends in public and private schools. My being home schooled has allowed me to enter my university at an early age (age 13 -- big thanks to IUPUI's fantastic SPAN program); unlike in primary schools, I am comfortable in a University setting, with much more freedom than in primary schools; because of my freedom, I was able to act on an opportunity to study abroad for 1 year; and despite my parents destroying my social abilities by home schooling me, I have been given awards for being a top student by my university, I have been accepted for a Summer Governor's Internship, and I have interned at NASA. This next year, I will be looking forward to entering graduate school for a PhD. in Geophysics.
I am not the only one with stories like this. IUPUI's SPAN program was created in order to help students like myself whose needs weren't being met by traditional schools. After my successful entrance into college at age 13, my aunt and uncle also took my cousin out of primary schools and enrolled him into the same university. He'll be moving on to a graduate degree in Electrical Engineering after next year. And another cousin, who has moderate Asperger's (among other behavioral problems), has always had terrible trouble fitting in at school and being taught in a way that he is able to learn. He didn't enroll in a university early, but his parents took advantage of many of the services and academies that cater to home schooled special needs and gifted children. This fall, he has been accepted for a full ride to a nice, private engineering university that is excited to have him in their Civil Engineering department.
Home schooling is not a bad thing. Like anything in life, there will be people who responsibly home school and people who irresponsibly home school. Stringent legislation will not prevent religious fanatic
They elected him to local government?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The state has no stake in brainwashing children.
To what state (government is how I read your meaning there) do you refer? I'd really like to know because there happen to be a few states (meaning governments) that have great stakes in brainwashing and indoctrinating the children of their "citizens."
Well, as someone from this same country, who actually has gone through the "mandatory" school system, and then completed two post-graduate degrees in CS and EE at German Universities, followed with another degree (MBA) from a reputable school in USA, i am outraged by this article.
(umm... and yeah, just to call attention to it - I also LEARNED this language you people speak BEFORE U came here. Unlik sum otr peeple whos cum her an dont no how too speek anglais, end dimand that the tax-paiers spent $$$ on offering ESL (English as a second language) classes1)
Someone like myself, who spent 20+ yrs educating themselves, and kept a clean record, and otherwise followed every single law, in each country, esp. the Immigration Laws of the US of A, i am upset.
It took me 10+ years, a large part of my "productive life", to gain residency in the USA. My greencard process alone took over 8 years.
During that time, i could work in "high tech", pay taxes (likely over 1million total sofar), and contribute to the success of the fabled "Silicon Valley".
yet - i was UNABLE to leave my employer, and follow the "American Dream" of starting my own company, "creating jobs".
Instead - "those people" (religious nut-jobs) get simply "political asylum", and others "jump the fence" and are thought to soon receive "amnesty" and citizenship.
(i mean - heck, here in California, there is outrage when people even question the practice to give "undocumented immigrants" things like drivers licenses etc.
This is something i would like politicians of this country to think about. (no, not "my" country, this will be another 4-5 years, until i will become eligible to be graced with the offer of citizenship - it is likely that those nutjobs in the article will be able to vote before i will)
Who do YOU want to "easily" immigrate to this country?
- cheap labour?
- law-breaking nut-wings?
- educated, law-abiding professionals?
pick one, and let your representatives know, before it's too late!
If you think a government being able to force you to send your children to someplace to teach them what the government wants them to learn isn't a violation of a basic human right, then I don't know what kind of rights you think humans should have.
From where do you get this "teach them what the government wants them to learn" nonsense? The law in question is that kids need to be taught by a qualified teacher. Doesn't have to be a public school. Teaching kids is an important job, and it's not a bad idea to leave it to people who know how to do it.
Parents aren't allowed to perform surgery on their kids either if they aren't qualified physicians. Another violation of human rights?
Any western democracy. They can hardly decide what color underpants to wear, much less how to brainwash their youth.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
The irony is that public schooled people have been 'brainwashed' into thinking that home schooling is about 'brainwashing' and that they are 'crackpots'.
In the UK you can home school without any qualifications. As the UK in in Europe then why not go to that ?. I suspect that they just wanted to emigrate.
And I don't really see why I should. My parents had every right to tell me whatever they wanted to; they could even openly object to whatever I learned in school. Not that there's ever been a need to do so (they sometimes objected to the methods used, though; quite openly, in fact).
It is one of those rights which need to be balanced between your personal rights and the rights/benefits/needs of society. It is a bit like freedom of speech vs. insulting or constraining others. The US tends to be more in favor of the personal rights here, Germany tends to be more in favor of society as a whole. Different cultures, I guess.
Right. Show me on any widely accepted declaration of human rights where it says home schooling is a right.
So I have a right to raise my children without science or math? I don't think so. We all have a responsibility to give our children certain standards of knowledge. To do otherwise is shameful. This family is shameful, as are the judge's actions.
Thank you! I think most home-school parents view their children more as property than people. The thought of their children getting their own ideas or ideas of others frightens the parents.
I agree, that's why I strongly support homeschooling.
Ahhh... The whole, "send your kids to public school or you daughter will get pregnant" argument. That isn't even a good argument.
Since they don't have rights, let's euthanize the ones we don't like.
No, it isn't, not in America anyway. I doubt it is in any country anywhere.
Society has put limits on this 'right', in order to protect children from extremists and idiots. You are allowed a certain level of freedom, but we as a society have said that we only allow it to a certain level and you must comply with some basic standards for education so your child can eventually have the opportunity to make their own decisions without being brainwashed by you to only believe YOUR viewpoints. You are also required to teach them certain specific things if you want to teach them yourself.
Its a compromise between letting you teach your children your beliefs and preventing you from making them nutjobs (which doesn't require a prefix of religious, there are plenty of other ways to be intolerant bastards). You can teach them and educate them your way, but you also have to expose them to certain other bits of knowledge that we as a society have decided that EVERYONE should know.
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Just because something is legal in the US does not make it some deep right. I have to raise my children to certain standards. That's the law. I can't treat them any way I choose.
I never said home schoolers are nuts. I said this family is, apparently. My wife and I both have teaching credentials, she teaches in public school, and I have a tutoring center. We have pondered home schooling. However, I'm always wary of untrained, inexperienced people home schooling. I'm ten-thousand more times wary when they home school for religious reasons.
Is that an absolute? As in no science or math at all? If so, you have no idea what you are talking about. These parents would be hard pressed to raise their children with NO science or math. If you mean 'a reasonable amount' of science and math, you have no idea what your talking about, as the parents might be home schooling because the public schools don't teach what they consider 'a reasonable amount'. I know here in the US, the public schools do teach enough math. They don't even come close to teaching enough science, and they don't teach enough critical thinking to properly use the math they learn.
So, if you live in the US and send your kids to public school, we have to ask, who the shameful family actually is.
Teaching kids is an important job, and it's not a bad idea to leave it to people who know how to do it.
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/16494/How_Do_I_Fire_an_Inept_Teacher_in_New_York_City_Schools.html
You said it far better than I ever could......
NY spends in excess of 20 mm USD per year on these teachers.....
all afghani girls who for years could not go to school (did we give asylum to all that requested?)
Did any Afghani girls come to the US and claim Asylum? I don't know of any cases.
all the africans who cannot go to school because of social problems (did we give asylum to all that requested?)
Did any of these Africans you mention come to the US and claim Asylum? I don't know of any cases.
Clearly shows how racist and politically biased the courts are: a group of (likely) right wing white people always get precedence over some poor 3rd world, brown-skinned, poor fellow...
You have an interesting definition of the word "clearly." You haven't provided a single example supporting your case at all, in fact-- pretty much the opposite of "clear."
It's a lot more likely that Racism is your pet issue and you're really, really stretching to make this a Racism issue and not a Freedom of Speech issue.
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Im not sure about the timing but i would not be surprised if somebody from the HSLDF didn't meet them coming off the plane.
Mr Smith has been doing this long enough that he doesn't miss all that much.
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Yes, we need a standard, handed down from God, the decider of all truths, to tell us what's what.
Most states in the US do require homeschool students to meet certain test standards. For instance, in NY, one of the more undfriendly states to homeschooling, we were required to inform our school district of an intent to homeschool. They in turn had to respond by a certain date and inform us what would be required of us if we wished to do so. If they did not respond, or they responded after that date, the homeschool family had no responsibility to interact further with the school district except to inform them of their intent to homeschool when the next year came around. Several of my friends in the next town over had school districts that didn't pay any attention to them. They still took end of the year tests, but chose to use California's tougher standardized tests rather than New York's sadly out of date ones. My school district did take an interest in us, and we took yearly standardized tests with a certified teacher at the end of every school year. Both my sister and I began testing at a post-high school level by the eighth grade.
For those who protest that religious reasons are an unacceptable reason to homeschool your children, I must respectfully disagree. Imagine, if you will, that you live in a society that is ruled by fundamental Islamsics, Hindus, Catholics, Christians, Scientology or anyone else that might attempt to force beliefs and teaching on you or your children that you don't agree with. (They do exist...) Would you not wish to teach your children at home? I believe that the choice to bring a child up with religious training (or non-religious) is still a right. (At least in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong.) I think that in very few instances should the government have the power to tell us how we can live our lives or interact with our family and run our homes. I do think that in cases of physical abuse the law is very clear. But when you start calling down emotional and mental abuse, the accusations are not as clear. The guidelines are much fuzzier. I've heard a lot of people call any kind of religious training brainwashing and abuse. I don't deny that in rare cases it does happen, but I think you ride a very fine line when you attempt to legally condemn an entire worldview.
You're thinking of Portland. Sorry.
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Sounds like the Germans have it right. Having been a victim of homeschooling myself for 7 years, I think it should be illegal. I received a good education (better, arguably, than I would have received in a proper school) but got dumped out into high school without the vaguest idea how to socialize with others. It took me all of high school and into college to learn the social rules I was deliberately sheltered from and it caused me extreme psychological distress. My parents even made considerable extra effort to ensure I'd have friends, etc. that I'd meet at "homeschooling support groups" and such. It just wasn't enough: eight hours per week of socializing with kids equally maladapted as I was just isn't going to cut it.
It's been over a decade since this all ended, and I am still incredibly angry at my parents for the whole thing.
I am not a home schooler, and I never have been, but I am in a [public] school and can tell you what we kids think. We've had a lot of kids transfer from home to public schools, and they get along fine, beyond the normal "I don't know anyone" of new students. Now, you couldn't tell that they were home schooled at all, unless you asked them. However, there is one home schooler that we know from scouts, etc. (he's my neighbor). He is the stereotype. He's 14, but still doesn't know a lot of social things, mainly how to detect immoral people and immoral activities. He's a very vocal Christian. His family has 7 kids (6 daughters younger than him) and homeschools because they can't afford private school. 90% of cases work well, but people like this is why there are sterotypes. Man, this post got long.
Thank you for pointing this out. I have heard this absurd socialization argument many times. It is very strange if you think about it. Over the history of humanity, it is only very recently that children mainly interact with social groups very close to their age. It used to be that a child would learn a trade from their parents, and although they had friends/playmates, a lot of their time was spend with their parents. Early is US history, there were many one room school houses where children of all ages would be taught by a single teacher. Why do we think that public schools with near-age peers groups is "normal"?
I heard that a Canadian study on home schooling was recently released and they found very positive results. The results showed that home schooled children were better community citizens (charities, gave time, etc). The study found nothing wrong with their social skills.
When the World Trade Center got hit by airplanes, and people were in panic and looking for leadership, the primary message from the establishment was not "Help your neighbours". It was not "Be charitable". It was "Keep shopping". This should give you an idea what the establishments priorities are, why public schools are the way they are, and what kind of adults they are intended to mold children into.
If you trust the disciples of Ayn Rand and John Nash to administer the education of your children, you shouldn't be surprised if they turn into psychopaths.
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After my first 3 years in state school i was homeschooled for 3 years, and learned much faster and more than my former classmates, when i went back to school i had become used to the quiet and effective learning, and was totally shocked and outcast in a rough, tough, loud and unnatural world with awful food and daily beatings. Although getting brilliant exams i had to quit university and society due to the traumatic years in the state school, later reading the "sudbury valley school experience" i realized how absolutely unnessesary the forced schooling system is and the "highly sensitive person" theory i now support all kinds of homeschooling or private schooling with the knowledge of the vast differences between each child and how children can seem perfectly happy while being forced into submission, physical and mental torture
You think like a ReThuglican Jew
Using spelling-bees as a metric for a criterion for how good education is is a really bad idea. Spelling bees are essentially an extracurricular that involves lots of memorization. Moreover, this looks at outliers. That's not useful in that it doesn't tell us anything about either the average of the general sample size. For example, it might very well be that homeschoolers on average spelled about as well or worse than public school kids but since so many homeschoolers get involved in spell bees they still end up dominating the upper tiers of the competition. If you could show that homeschoolers on average had better grammar and spelling that would be a different claim. Or if you could show they did well across the board in intellectually related competitions you might have an argument. Moreover, one could actually argue that this is a negative reflection of how homeschooling functions: homeschooling in the United States is often done by reactionary Christians. Spelling is therefore appealing in that it at first glance seems to be a set of nice, rigid rules.
From my understanding, they were granted asylum because they were being persecuted for homeschooling. Not being able to attend a school is different than having government action taken against one for attending a school. (Not that I don't agree with you in that the effect is the same.)
If people want to teach their kids in their own way, it's their business, not a government's. We homeschooled our first child for a bit, then he decided he wanted to go to regular schools. But we've come close to yanking them out a couple of times, and still might if we run into actual problems. Religion is only one reason to do it. My problem with a lot of current education is that it seems to focus a lot less on the basics and adds more and more stuff that I just don't see as relevant to school.
Its whether someone should be granted asylum for wanting to school their children at home, when there are plenty of Mexican families that just want to raise their children in our PUBLIC school system, and are willing to stuff three families into a three bedroom house to do so. Or Haitians who just want their children not to starve. Please, this is friggin' ridiculous.
Many homeschoolers in my area are sending their homeschooled kids at 14, 15, 16, and 17 to college. They get their group education in an environment that isn't as caustic as middle- and high-school. They can also earn college credit to reduce college expenses in the future and there's a nice Federal tax credit to pay for the college courses. Something that I've just read about is parents with students in private school considering homeschooling in order to get them into dual-enrollment programs at community colleges. Some community colleges provide free courses to homeschoolers and tax credits could take care of remaining expenses. Our kids started college at 15. They get the group benefits and learn things that we're happy to farm out with students that are generally more mature than those in secondary schools.
Right. Show me on any widely accepted declaration of human rights where it says home schooling is a right.
As soon as you demonstrate to me why any declaration of human rights, widely accepted or otherwise, has any bearing on what is actually a human right.
I dunno. Do you have any evidence that brown peoples' asylum requests on the basis of denial of education have been rejected?
FTFA: "They said textbooks presented ideas and language that conflicted with their Christian beliefs, including slang terms for sex acts and images of vampires and witches, while the school offered what they described as ethics lessons from Islam, Buddhism and other religions. The eldest son got into fights in school and the eldest daughter had trouble studying."
They obviously belong on the USA. What better place for outraged religious fanatics trying to screw up the life of their kids?
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
It would appear from all the grandstanding and know-it-all responses to this thread, that the US has gotten something right: every family is able to make choices about schooling according to their values, capabilities, and needs. That freedom is not something to be taken for granted. To those who want to home school -- more power to you! If you want to send your kids to the public schools -- good for you! It's a shame that social structures exist that prohibit parents from doing what they believe is right for their kids.
People are just modding me down because they disagree. I said what the majority of people on this site feel and know to be true.
Yeah because it was homeschoolers that put people in concentration camps, not the government. Hitler with his mandatory homeschooling programs is what spread hatred of Jews.
Jeez... get a clue.
"Activist judge" always, without any exceptions of any kind ever, means "judge who made I ruling I don't like". No other meaning is possible, and ALL claims to the contrary are lies.
A lot of homeschooling families are trying to instill exactly that indoctrination into their children, especially the religious fanatics (like this family in particular).
Trust me, we are.
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May I give your advice back to you? Homeschooling is mainly interesting for minorities, who strongly disagree with offcial line of education. During the Hitler time homeschooling might have been a good idea to spare the kids nazi indoctrination. However, when you see no difference between the governments then and now, you are hardly worth an answer here. In that case you are a fanatic crackpot yourself.
Homeschooling is like incest for knowledge!
In a school, you're permanently confronted with other people and ideas, so you can develop your own view of the world by examining and choosing different subjects of knowledge.
At home, your parents teach only what they know themselves and you'll teach the same knowledge to your children and so on. There will be no evolution.
Here in Germany there is an "allgemeine Schulpflicht", i.e. children have the obligation to attend school and are (generally) not allowed to be schooled at home. This is German law for about a century, and generally accepted.Exceptions, e.g. for travelling folk are very strictly regulated to ensure that the children get a decent education.
The Romeike family simply refused to obey the law and claimed "religious reasons" for doing so. In the US they (fraudulently, IMHO) claimed being prosecuted for "religious reasons", and were granted asylum. But this "prosecution for religious reasons" is totally bogus - they were simply prosecuted for breaking the law, like every common criminal. And claiming this "prosecution for religious reasons" is not only fraudulent, it is generally considered an insult in the German public, because we take religious freedom really seriously - something caused by our history.
Imagine someone would kill other people and claim religious reasons for doing so ("Kali told me to rip his heart out!"), would you agree that convicting this person for murder would be a "prosecution for religious reasons" and grant him asylum? The example might be a bit extreme, but at the end of the day both is breaking the law, and purporting religion for doing so.
And even in the US the cop would only laugh if you claimed "God told me to put the pedal to the medal!" when he pulled you over for speeding. Well, maybe not if it was a Tennessee cop, though...
Did I make a comparison between governments then and now?
You were the one who posited the "fanatic crackpot" position that somehow, in your twisted view of reality, homeschooling fosters hatred and leads to concentration camps.
You are a bigot.
We would never tolerate a foreign gov dictating our education policy, but there's the arrogance of the USA again...meanwhile, the religious right is waging a war on common sense trying to say my children should be taught "science" based on the notion that all science is evil...while using modern communications based on tech using theoretical and mathematical work done by the very scientists they deride as crackpots. Education *is* a public duty of society, and education must be based on learning factual information. Maybe they want our country back in the dark ages, but we don't have the right to demand the Germans be forced to return to the days when the earth was flat and people were burned at the stake for witchcraft.
Actually, our children are a direct result of the combination of their parents' DNA. As such, they are already shaped into our image by a process over which we had no control: the husband's eyes, the mother's body shape, even the likely birthweight of their children.
Now who is better suited to understanding and teaching a child than the people who, working together, contain all that the child contains? I am synesthetic. My child is synesthetic. Am I not as well suited to teaching him coping methods as the non-synesthetic public school teacher?
Many of the most brilliant people in the world were taught at home. Some of them, like Edison, were removed from school after flunking out. When a child is capable of creating blueprints in his head, who is better suited to help him? Someone who can do the same thing, or someone who cannot?
You've put forth a false claim here in linking the shaping of your child with beating and brainwashing him. Would you claim that you cannot braid hair without pulling it out of the scalp, or that you cannot close the snaps on clothing without crushing the metal? Of course not. There's use and there's abuse, and it's a logical fallacy to claim that one is always the other.
In September 2006, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Germany's mandatory school attendance policy, along with the corresponding ban on homeschooling, is compatible with both European law and the European Convention on Human Rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_in_Germany
"In a landmark legal case commenced in 2003 at the European Court of Human Rights a homeschooling parent couple argued on behalf of their children that Germany's compulsory school attendance endangered their children's religious upbringing, promoted teaching inconsistent with their Christian faith – especially the German State's mandates relating to sex education in the schools – and contravened the declaration in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union that "the State shall respect the right of parents to ensure education and teaching is in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions". In September 2006 the European Court of Human Rights upheld the German ban on homeschooling, stating "parents may not refuse... [compulsory schooling] on the basis of their convictions", and adding that the right to education "calls for regulation by the State". The European Court took the position that the plaintiffs were the children, not their parents, and declared "children are unable to foresee the consequences of their parents' decision for home education because of their young age.... Schools represent society, and it is in the children's interest to become part of that society. The parents' right to educate does not go as far as to deprive their children of that experience." The European Court endorsed a "carefully reasoned" decision of the German court concerning "the general interest of society to avoid the emergence of parallel societies based on separate philosophical convictions and the importance of integrating minorities into society."
Actually, homeschooling is not allowed even if you are an examined teacher. Every single homeschooling family in Germany is operating either secretly or under direct threat of fines or jail time.
In addition, the claim of criminal negligence was made despite the children all excelling at the state-administered tests. Basically, in Germany, educational negligence is defined as not having your child in a public or State-Approved private school, regardless of his or her actual achievement level.
Blah, that's BS, Coward.
It's just individuals and personalities. There are far too many generalizations on this thread, and far too often people think of "homeschooling" as some sort of organized force. It's not. DIY education is more of a bazaar, if you will.
I was homeschooled from Kindergarten all the way through high school, and now I'm attending a top school in computer science and have had numerous internships with very good companies (and have another internship with a company that regularly pops up here on /. on the west coast lined up for this summer). I would consider myself in no ways socially crippled. I have always had a sizable group of good friends all my life in a several circles. Now I live a pretty stable life with a steady girlfriend and active social life. I would consider myself quite the opposite of shy or maladjusted. My parents were religious; however, fairly open minded, and always encouraged me to figure things out for myself, and even though I do not agree with them on all points in philosophy or religion, they support me with whatever I believe. My point here isn't to brag about having a good life -- I mean, it's had its up and downs -- or saying that homeschooling has made me this way -- I'm sure I would have been fine in public school -- my point is that everybody is unique. Those shy awkward homeschoolers could very well have been just as shy and awkward (or even more so) had they been in public school. Homeschooling may helped have shaped me into being who I am, but at the same time I may have acquired the same traits (academic, arrogant, and anti-authoritarian) elsewhere. Ultimately, I think it comes down to individuals. In my case, as a child I have had some medical issues for which homeschooling was very advantageous. However, having quite a few homeschooled friends, I know there are many other reasons for homeschooling, and the educational quality varies wildly -- just like in public school.
If I have any kids in the future (I'm not sure if I want to be responsible for contributing to over-population), I can't say if I'll homeschool them or not because I haven't met them. It's a very individual decision.
Anyway, that's my two cents and mini-autobiography. Take it or leave it, etc.
No, you can't act as you like. That's not what freedom of religion is about. It's "hands off my mind", not "don't tell me what to do".
You're simply wrong about Gore. The academic consensus is very strong. Popular media might not portray it very reliably or well, but it's there. Academia is the most reliable institution for determining truth that we have. What it says might not be aimed at countering a spirited opposition by industry, the faithful, or the politically inspired, but that does not change things. You might "make up your own mind", but if you don't study the field, you might as well be making stuff up - without relevant background, we can't understand the fields. I have limited expertese in a few fields, reasonable understanding of several more, and much more limited understanding of other fields. You'd be a fool to listen to me speculate on physics - no matter how much I tried to make sense (or how good I might sound if I worked on it), I simply lack the background to be authoritative. It's too easy for vested interests to hire talking heads to dispute the experts.
False. You have had plenty of opportunity to say what gives government this right, and you've failed to even try. (And simply saying "society gives them that right" is, of course, not a serious argument, because that would justify all manner of atrocities, including the Holocaust.)
Unfortunately, you've failed by Godwin's Law here, and you shamefully lose the discussion (with no demerit to your actual position). Pity. I was enjoying the back-and-forth, and now I don't even need to read the rest of your argument. Oh well. Be more careful next time.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
You're screaming at the top of your lungs that I'm right. You're doing that by feebly denying the absolute truth of what I said without actually trying to refute it.
So you seem to assert that the "right religion" tells adherents that "Jesus Christ is their Savior who died for their sins"...
Do I have that right?
Because you have been so quiet on this matter for so long, and so many of your writings seem to me to be so unchristian, that I thought you might have changed...
There is no "right religion" to choose
False. Of course there is.
they shouldn't brainwash the children into any religion
If by "brainwash" you mean parents cannot teach their children that Jesus Christ is their Savior who died for their sins, then you're wrong. This is a right guaranteed by the First Amendment.