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9 MA Cyberbullies Indicted For Causing Suicide
Raul654 writes "Massachusetts teenager Phoebe Prince committed suicide on January 14. After her death, it was revealed that she had been the target of cyberbullying for months (and that her teachers were aware of it and did nothing). Today, nine of her classmates were indicted on charges including harassment, stalking, civil rights violations, and statutory rape. Prince's suicide echoes the earlier case of Megan Meier, who committed suicide after being cyberbullied by a classmate's mother."
This has nothing to do with Facebook, Flicker, FourSquare, Twitter, or any other Web 2.0 website. This happened at school, during school hours, and with the school having knowledge that that something was going on. This is a first round of charges, there could be more including some of the adults who could have taken action. Dating a senior football player and being the "new girl" led to her being teased and hated... leading to violence, leading to a situation where she saw no way out. This should have been cut off with detentions and suspensions long before it got this far.
I'm pretty sure the lawyers in this case are going to pull all the Web 2.0 content created by the students involved. If they go down this path and find something that can be treated as a confession, then it's "News for nerds." or "Stuff that matters." Until we see that, it's more like the 6pm news here in the Boston area.
Reading the article, you can't really pigeonhole this as a cyberbullying incident -- it seems way more accurate to call this an instance of *comprehensive* asshole behavior. I mean, when I was a kid the bullies knew how to operate the phone, but nobody called that telebullying.
Don't get me wrong, this is distressing stuff, but reading between the lines it seems awfully simplistic to try and just pass this entire affair off as being a simple result of these kids using the internets in order to torment this girl into killing herself. Really, the most disturbing thing to me in the article is the lack of remorse these girls displayed after the fact. I understand that high school is messed up, but who the hell makes jerk comments on a memorial page? That seems pretty damn sociopathic even by the standards of high school.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
The daughter of a neighbor experienced a similar problem some time ago. Fortunately a vice-principal at the school did not ignore the reports from teachers and took disciplinary action against the people involved.
The harassment was vicious, nasty and designed to humiliate and hurt. I understand that the bullies were unrepentant - they felt they had a "right" to hurt someone who didn't kowtow to them.
I am thankful that these sorts of issues were pretty much unknown when I went to school. I think I'll home-school my kids....
The world has some assholes in it. They are mean to people for no good reason.
Altho for some reason we put up with them and work around them instead of throwing them down a deep dark hole and moving on.
Apparently, this poor girl was also raped.
This has been the teacher and administrator MO since I was in school in the 60s. Actually it's worse than that. The teacher/administrator just wants the problem to go away so they tend to persecute and isolate the *victim* rather than the perpetrator (Johny gets bullied by a group of 5 kids on the playground so we'll keep *Johny* inside while all the kids go out to play). This usually ostracizes the victim further by pointing him/her out as the weak odd kid.
In my experience, the most culpable individuals are spineless teachers followed by spineless administrators. Children can't really be blamed. They know no better. Adults do, or should.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Since when has statutory rape been part of cyber bullying?
It sounds like cyber bullying was the least of her problems.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Stupid laws passed of dubious Constitutional muster aimed at preventing another tragedy of this sort just as we saw after Megan Meier's suicide. Queue the national histeria.
Look: this sort of thing has been going on a long time. (While I was bullied extensively in grade school a lot of that stopped at least for me by the time I reached high school, but I can still relate.) It's tragic but not much can be done. The administrators are often clueless and/or helpless, as are the teachers, and there is only so much they can do anyway.
I survived and thrived because my parents did a good job in helping address this sort of thing with me (by talking to me about it. not by interfering). I found out later that some of my teachers had been bribing some of the bullies to stay away from me, but that didn't matter much since I was beat up by plenty of other kids as well.
So instead we will turn our schools into prisons.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Since when did rape become a joke?
The authorities have made it plain by their actions that there's no way to get justice and stay alive. This is just going to make suicide look like a more attractive option to targets of bullying.
The problem also runs deeper than the conduct of the high school authorities. What are the odds that the conscienceless perpetrators didn't present any warning signs in grade school and middle school?
Why did the two boys get statutory rape charges thrown in? Did they actually do something, or is that a bullshit charge? If there's a reason for it, were the girls not involved, or shouldn't they have been charged with it as well?
Here is the standard post, thought I'd help get it out of the way:
WHERE THE HELL WERE THE PARENTS!??!? *arrggghhh!*
If you're going to allow your children to use the Internet, understand that its misuse has the potential to cause serious psychological trauma. If your child is pre-disposed to suicidal thoughts to begin with, allowing unsupervised access to the Internet is potentially dangerous. Kind of like leaving your loaded gun within reach. What were the guardian's of this girl doing after the repeated harassment and torment caused by these kids?
Yes, the kids should not have done it. They now will face the consequences.
Yes, the teachers should have stopped it. Too bad nothing will happen to them. We wouldn't want to make the teachers responsible for anything.
However, the people with the ultimate responsibility are the people who brought her in to this world. Don't have kids if you can't be bothered to be responsible enough to do the quite difficult job of being a parent. That job includes engaging your child in regular communication, following up with teachers to know what is going on at school, and knowing what your child is doing (especially on the Internet). The parents will now have to live the rest of their lives asking one of two questions "Why didn't we do something?" or "Who can we blame for this?"
I know most people, including even myself, have the reading style of letting our brains pick out the interesting bits and ignoring everything else, but it's important to point out that this isn't one of those cyberbullying vs free speech type of cases. Specifically:
The sweeping charges ... include statutory rape, violation of civil rights with bodily injury...
This isn't about the internet at all.
Sadly, due to the extreme power of the teacher's union, it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher, for any reason. The teacher could be openly fondling kids in the hallway, and it would be next to impossible to fire them. (instead, they get a probationary removal from the classroom, stay on school payroll, and go to a "rubber room" for a time out.)
As such, there is pretty much ZERO motivation for teachers to control their classrooms with anything other than purpetual suggestions to employ psychotropics, and to control only the most disruptive of students, and then only just enough to get by. (They'll be some other teacher's problem next year after all. No worries about them failing and staying in the same grade, afterall. "No child left behind", and all that.)
What needs to happen in order to reform the public school system, is that FIRST and Foremost, the teacher's union needs to be declawed, and or castrated. There is nothing wrong with them having a union; there is EVERYTHING wrong with that union causing a net degredation of the quality of student education, and circumventing culpability of teacher's behaviors and activities.
Secondly, parents need to sue teachers who are culpable directly, and not the school board. That way there are no special lawyers present. This helps get around the intricate network of "culpability" and "Responsibility" shell games that these organisations employ, and can effectively do what the school boards cannot (Remove a teacher perminently.)
Finally, the "No child left behind" policy needs to be redacted. Self Esteem is not nearly as important as actual performance, and it needs to not be used as a boogey man to cover up/ignore teaching incompetence/failure. (likewise with student incompetence/failure)
People acting like assholes happens for actual reasons. Don't wave away the effort of figuring it out. That will just make you less able to cope.
Want insight? Here's a great starter: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/big-bad-bully
The only thing not funny about a STATUTORY rape charge is the fact that - because you were 17 and fucked that 15 year old hottie - you're now on the sex offenders list for life.
The boys were charged with statutory rape because of their age; they're not charged with forcing her to have sex. I don't think it's splitting hairs to insist on that distinction.
Really, this smells way more like the police charging everybody they can find to try to make up for the fact that this girl is dead.
I used to get jabbed and punched every day one year during middle school after lunch, when we all lined up to leave the cafeteria. Teachers knew it. Administrators knew it. And when I finally fought back, I got sent to the principal's office and got detention for fighting. As if I was picking fights with a group of 4 kids all of whom were twice the size of my short, skinny frame. Like you said, this is how it's always been.
You can look a little further and look for why you get spineless teachers and spineless administrators. Those with spine tend to get prosecuted when they attempt disciplinary actions by overzealous parents that most of the time won't do their part in their children's education, leaving all the burden to school.
Interesting paradox, isn't it?
http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
Which reminds me of this graph
"For months, community anger simmered that no punishment had befallen Phoebe's bullies. Petitions were signed and town hall meetings held." Not only do these students need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but so should the school administrators for gross negligence of their duties. How on earth can you let school bullying get to the point of requiring town hall meetings and still sit back and do nothing about it?
Since when did rape become a joke?
Ohhh, some people don't like you to talk like that. Ohh, some people like to shut you up for saying those things. You know that. Lots of people. Lots of groups in this country want to tell you how to talk. Tell you what you can't talk about. Well, sometimes they'll say, well you can talk about something but you can't joke about it.
Say you can't joke about something because it's not funny. Comedians run into that shit all the time.
Like rape. They'll say, "you can't joke about rape. Rape's not funny."
I say, "fuck you, I think it's hilarious. How do you like that?"
I can prove to you that rape is funny. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd.
- George Carlin
You sir, are a royal fucktard. You must wear your crown of ignorance and misogyny with distinct pride.
Megan Meier ... Phoebe Prince ...
Apparently you are more likely to be cyberbullied if your first and last names start with the same letter.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
But it won't be without a comprehensive solution. Simply kicking the bad kids out of school doesn't help, it requires the action of the parents as well, but frequently the parents have the "not my kid" or "it's not a big deal" attitude. And once you have to get the cops involved it's gone too far.
A big part of the problem is that the rewards for being a bully are simply too great, vs. any punishment a school can hand out.
On the other hand there is a fuzzy line between mostly harmless teasing (which learning to deal with builds character) and bullying, although in this case it was clearly so far over the line that there is no question.
What we don't need is yet another zero tolerance policy. As I stated above, there needs to be a comprehensive solution where the bad kids are held accountable in a material way, and the parents of the bad kids are likewise held responsible. At the same time, the victims need to be to learn that the bullies just don't matter. Unfortunately, society rewards the "cool" kids and punishes the dorks.
Probably the best current solution is teaching your kids how to beat the living shit out of a bully and to deal with the repercussions of that action.
I didn't have to deal with this too much when I was in school, probably had something to do with being 6'2" / 160 in 8th grade. It seems to me that most bullies grow up to be extroverted assholes selling cars - just desserts.
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
Since it started arriving in 40lb boxes I believe.
Controversial or no, I can certainly understand trying to make some humour out of the frankly fucked-up statutory rape laws.
ask Marcus Dixon about over the top rape charges.
Yeah, I really don't see the connection here either, except the remote connection that some posted "bully-type" comments on her facebook page.
And, since no one else is going to point it out: The statutory rape charges should never be. I can guarantee the only reason thhey are charged with it is because the kids who pushed the girl to suicide, when confronted and in trouble spouted "but he was having sex with her!" If this is the case, it shows the true person(s) behind the bullying -- scapegoating maniacle children because they grew up watching their parents lie and generally be shit heads.
These girls were not joking. Boys beat the crap out of each other. Girls are a hell of a lot meaner.
...
Not that the failure in copy editing is really the most important part of this story...
or any other Web 2.0 website.
Seeing people here on Slashdot using marketing hyperbole buzzwords makes me want to commit suicide.
Expect a call from my wife's lawyer when I'm gone!
A couple of kids on the school bus decided they had it in for me. It was pretty constant physical harassment, 45 minutes each way, 5 days a week.
I was only 11 at the time and had no ability to deal with this on any level. I came home in tears every day. My mom called the school; my mom called the kids' parents; nothing changed.
After a couple of months, I basically said I wasn't riding the bus any more. That made it my mother's problem. She went to my father and made it his problem. My father went to the principal and made it the principal's problem. I don't know what the principal did. My guess is he called in the two kids and told them to stop it. After that, they restricted themselves to verbal harassment, which I could more or less deal with.
When one of my own kids was 10, he started reporting harassment at school. We had a few discussions with his teachers, but the harassment continued. So we pulled him from the town school and sent him to a nearby charter school for the duration of Junior High. He was not harassed at the charter school.
In our state, the per-pupil funding for a student follows the student when they go to a charter school. So for the next 4 years, I got occasional letters from the town school extolling the quality of their faculty and curriculum, asking me to respond to surveys, and even inviting me to attend focus groups (I am not making this up) that they were conducting to try to figure out what they needed to do to hold onto students (and their per-pupil funding).
I always responded to these, in writing, explaining exactly why we had pulled our son. I never received any response, let alone any indication that school might actually protect my children from harassment.
Even when their own funding is on the line, town schools are unable(?) unwilling(?) (take your pick) to protect students from harassment.
Since when did rape become a joke?
Since George Carlin in the 1980s.
It's better on VHS.
Some victims, seeing that nobody will bother to help them, take up weapons and go to school to kill as many as possible (the source of their suffering) until being killed by the police or committing suicide. It would be so easy to avoid this by exemplary punish the bullies, but I see that the culture of schools is to encourage the bullies ...
How many victims will be necessary before a bullie be punished for harming someone?
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Let me say it again: Suicide Is Irrational. Without extreme methods, you simply can't drive a mentally healthy person to suicide.
How many people in high school are mentally healthy?
Yep.....
I remember those days.....
I was bullied once and (being the smaller and weaker kid) bit my attacker. The principal's approach was to bring out boxing gloves and to tell us to fight it out like men. I'm not joking......
Not to say it was all bad. Apparently some teachers, wanting the problem to go away, started bribing one of the worst of the bullies to stay away from me. In retrospect I don't really respect that approach either.....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Related to mental illness: http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml
Also lack of community:
http://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Americas-Depression-Epidemic-Community/dp/1933392711
Also poor diet:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/oct/17/prisonsandprobation.ukcrime
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Let's be perfectly clear here. Suicide is irrational. There was de facto something else wrong with this girl.
True. But my understanding from a Criminal Justice class years ago, is that the victim is accepted as is. So if you rob a bank and the teller has a heart attack and dies because of a congenital heart defect, you're still on the hook. You undertook an illegal act and are repsonsible for the consequences, even if they are not immediately forseeable.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
How the hell did we end up with an entire generation of precious snowflakes that can't take a joke?
The same way we ended up with precious snowflakes who slam girls into lockers and punch them in the head.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Or else I will kill myself and get you guys into big trouble!
You don't have the guts, chickenshit!
They don't do anything when the abuse is physical and real either. There is this prevailing notion that bullying is "normal" and just "kids being kids". I can tell you though, some of those bullies are so vicious it's no wonder some of the victims see suicide as the only viable option.
It's time to start locking some of these little shits up. They can either reform, or GTFO.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
While certainly it is a tragedy that this girl has killed herself, and certainly any criminal activity related should be punished, is it really appropriate to hold others responsible for her choice to kill herself? She was called names constantly. People posted insults online relentlessly. Her books were knocked from her hands. High school seniors took advantage of her and had consenting sex with her while she was the age of consent for her state. Most, directly, violent of all, she had a can of Red Bull thrown at her, though it might not have hit her. Certainly, if these were observed or reported, the staff of the school had an obligation to mete out punishments and restraints. However, is there a reasonable expectation that these, even if a regular pattern over the course of four months, lead to someone killing themselves? Is it equally likely that, for whatever reason, this young lady simply did not have the emotional tools to manage the sort of abuse that is frequently dealt in high school?
Perhaps my experience as a fat, bowlegged, dork in high school has inured me to the torments of others. Personally, I just skipped school when I didn't want to go. Worked just fine, until I got sent to in school detention, which was conveniently isolated...so I can't really complain there either. To me, the logical consequence of school being a place of torment is that the person just not go when it gets to be too much. If going someplace makes you feel like killing yourself, don't go there. Facebook make you feel like dying? Don't click the Facebook link.
Do we now hold people responsible for another person's actions? Do you want a world where your negative online comments, no matter how vile, can land you in prison because someone else does not have the emotional tools to deal with, or avoid, your vitriol...or what they PERCIEVE as vitriol? Imagine the consequences, manipulations, and abuses that flow from this. Is the suicide a tragedy? Yes, but even as we are certain to punish highschoolers for their cruel behavior, let us keep in mind who chose to kill this girl.
Moderation : -1 Conservative Viewpoint
The teacher could be openly fondling kids in the hallway, and it would be next to impossible to fire them.
Sadly, that's bullshit. My favourite teacher was fired due to an *accusation* of improper conduct. Not sex, not fondling, not even kissing. Just talking about a slightly sexual topic. Note, this was on a school trip, and they were *in a bar,* legally. And note I said "accusation." He was eventually cleared when she copped to lying. But he was still fired.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
I was just reading about another suicide of a high school girl where cyberbullying was involved as well, sad what is happening in high school now a days. http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/03/alexis_pilkington_17_commits_s.php
In Massachusetts, anyone having sex with a 16-year-old is guilty of statutory rape. If two 15-year-olds have sex, both are guilty. The sentencing though can depend on the age difference (if it's greater than 10 years or if the victim was much younger, there is a 10 year minimum sentence, but in a case like this there might ordinarily be little or no jail time, though I'd worry these kids might get a heavier sentence somehow because of the suicide).
While in many cases, I feel like statutory rape laws are a bad idea when applied to other teenagers only a few years older (and obviously the MA law has a lot of potential for abuse), in this case I can't help but think that maybe this is exactly the sort of taking advantage of the young and emotionally vulnerable that the statutory rape law was meant to stop.
This has been the teacher and administrator MO since I was in school in the 60s. Actually it's worse than that. The teacher/administrator just wants the problem to go away so they tend to persecute and isolate the *victim* rather than the perpetrator (Johny gets bullied by a group of 5 kids on the playground so we'll keep *Johny* inside while all the kids go out to play). This usually ostracizes the victim further by pointing him/her out as the weak odd kid.
In my experience, the most culpable individuals are spineless teachers followed by spineless administrators. Children can't really be blamed. They know no better. Adults do, or should.
When I was in elementary school, if you got punched in the face and told a teacher, the puncher and you would both be punished, usually equally. One would be punished for the punch, the other for "tattling."
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
See, now you're being mean to him. Anything he does to himself might be your fault because you were cruel to him online. Also, this isn't Troll. This is insightful.
Moderation : -1 Conservative Viewpoint
Are you claiming that external stimuli and environmental factors are not a significant contributor to mental illness? You're wrong.
I was a normal, well-adjusted kid who experienced a decade of bullying, parental neglect, and some truly horrifying experiences during my pre-teen to early adult years. (Not to even mention the indifference of the public school system.) During that time, I descended deeper and deeper into mental illness and culminated into a full-blown raging case of bipolar disorder along with a metric assload of other comorbid conditions.
Were genetics at fault? Partly, perhaps. Was I predisposed? Perhaps. Were the sum of my experiences a substantial contributing factor? Absolutely.
Torment someone long enough, or mercilessly enough, and they're going to be prone to irrational acts - including suicide.
Suggesting that the poor girl is wholly responsible is pretty fucking heartless, if you ask me.
On the contrary, it's *very* easy to escape: don't log in.
When I was 9 I had to face a bad case of bullying by a kid that was 11 and had judo classes. Luckily, I managed to fix that by breaking his nose. Once, when he grabbed me from the back in a judo grip, I realized that his face was right behind my head, so I hit his nose with the back of my head. He was so ashamed that he never admitted to anyone that I had done it, he claimed he tripped and fell.
Compared to that kind of physical abuse, cyber bullying is nothing, just ignore it. You cannot ignore being held from the back in a judo grip by someone who is two years older and way bigger than you are.
Let me say it again: Suicide Is Irrational. Without extreme methods, you simply can't drive a mentally healthy person to suicide.
I ask this honestly, not to flame or troll, but seriously. Were you bullied in school? Like, serious, concerted bullying efforts? Because let me tell you, that qualifies. It's a systematic alienation of a human being, and destruction of their self-image. It's the causing of a mentally healthy person to become unhealthy. When I was in school, I actually saw some of my friends wither and change due to bullying. They were absolutely not the same people they were at the end of the school year as at the start. In fact, one of my friends who ended up dead (not suicide, but a lifestyle next best thing to it) probably could have traced his problems back to bullying. Unfortunately, his biggest bully was his stepfather, making it not a directly analogous case.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
that coin has two sides.. I was raised in eastern Europe and I have to say, kids here are spoiled brats with entitlement issues. Teachers are not respected, many parents blame the school for their children's poor academic records and don't bother to actually lend a hand. Back home, bullying was never as bad as it seems to be here.Why? because over there children were taught that they depended on each other. You did not pick your classes. You did not pick you peers. In high school you had all the same classes with the same people, and most of you were friends by the fourth year. As a matter of fact classes had rivalries going on if I a student from a different class tried to bully you, your classmates would defend you no matter how popular you were. I'm astonished every time I hear about bullying in North America. In different cultures it's much less common. Could it be the culture here?
At least in our school district, the school adminstration has always met the problem head on. There was a Russian kid who got bullied, he filed a complaint. The administration took action, called the papers, set up school assemblies and had sessions for the kids. No news on kids who did it, but I guess that they got some serious counselling.
Something similar happened to my daughter; she's a jock and walks like a lumberjack. This kid has bigger arms than most boys her age. So some girls started to make fun of her; she took it to the administration and the behavior stopped immediately.
So not all districts are like that. Only the bad ones make the headlines.
How the hell did we end up with an entire generation of precious snowflakes that can't take a joke?
Since when are assault, stalking, harassment, and vandalism jokes?
We ended up with an entire generation of "precious snowflakes" who can't "take a joke" in large part due to many generations of psychopathic assholes who think such things are funny and appropriate. Forgive me if I don't shed a tear for the fucktards who find out that this isn't the case.
(I hate that word)
Obviously her friends and family have my deepest sympathies but cyberbullying is easily preventable in most mediums (ability to block and report abuse) and if not then contacting the service provider should sort things out.
I don't think 'Cyberbullying' is really the problem, its 'real life' bullying which does the most harm. Normally it's easy to do things that aren't really punishable (no teacher will have a serious problem with someone knocking books out of some ones hands) or on there own don't really matter but if these things are happening over a long period of time then there is a problem.
I tend to find with bullies (verbal at least) a good shout of "NO YOU!" at the top of your voice tends to shut them up.
I care not for your karma and your mod points.
It's better on VHS.
It's best on vinyl.
More like spineless principal and above. Teachers can't even get a student kicked out of school let alone their classroom when the student HITS them. Parents are allowed to disrupt their classes and yell at the teachers. Teachers are not even allowed to fail students anymore, let alone kick them out.
Blame the no child is left behind and the principals on up in the chain, not the teachers. They may act like they have no spine, because they can't do anything. Granted they should say something, but teachers learn just saying things is worse when they can never back it up, because their "power" is imaginary, and once that illusion is gone, teachers have nothing.
You want teachers to have some responsibility? make it so they can kick kids out of their classroom and school.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
What do you expect when friends don't stand up for friends?
Who do you try to blame, bullying adults were bullying kids at one point of their life as well !
Do ourselves have the guts to speak up for others when unfair things occur?
Damn! How do I do that over the internet?!? Every time I've statutory raped a girl, I've had to meet her in real life... it would be so much easier for me if I could just do it through email or text messaging!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
The failure here is the lack of action by the school officials to even report what has happened, even in a "let's cover our asses" way.
I have a sister who is the principle of a school.Her method of dealing with troublesome students is to call the parents and tell them to come to the school to discuss their child's actions. This works wonders for 1 reason. It forces the parents to take time out of their schedule/work hours to deal with their child with no way to skirt around the issue.
'If you don't want to be bothered while at work and to be shown what a terrible parent you are, discipline your child.'
Make it clear that every time an incident occurs or a report is made about their child they will be called out of work to deal with it. The results are miraculous to say the least. You can even tell the victims of bullies that they should tell you when something happens so you can follow this exact procedure. Even terrible parents don't want the 'hassle' of their child interfering with their work life.
Admittedly this only works when the parents have at least a partial interest in their child. For the neighborhoods when there is no parental involvement, there's little you can do sadly, but this has always been the case.
Is saving 3 characters that valuable? MA is a postal designation for Massachusetts. It is not correct to refer to Massachusetts as MA. If you must abbreviate, use Mass. as even USPS used before they came up with state codes. You can still write Conn., Del. &c. in a mailing address, but they don't like it.
... but having been a victim of bullying in school myself (many MANY moons ago), I say give them all the chair - get them out of the gene pool NOW, before it's too late.
Without extreme methods, you simply can't drive a mentally healthy person to suicide.
does physical and psychological abuse 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, with enforced attendance qualify?
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Oh wait, would that be cyberbullying? I thought it would have been Constitutionally protected.....
If it crosses over into harassment or slander, that's another matter. In that case you are (allegedly, at least) harming another person with what you say - and while the federal government may not have a valid claim to curb what you have to say, that person may.
Bow-ties are cool.
On how the reprimand is applied, its intensity, and so on. If there is a real concern from the school board, I'd say it would make a difference. Problem is, most of the times the people responsible see bullying as a nuisance, not as a serious problem that has to be dealt with. They don't want to go to the hassle of educating the bullies on why bullying is bad. Rather, they see the bullied kids as incompetent since they can't deal with it themselves. And the kids do noticed that, which only enhances their despair - bullied kids are usually already lonesome, being seen as a loser by adults that are supposed to be helping them might trigger powerful feelings in the more fragile ones. That said, I think this kind of overly open bullying is a facet of American society, so ultra competitive that it categorizes people as either losers or popular since they are small kids (I am not American, so I might be talking out of my ass here, but that is the impression we got from news such as these).
Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
In my experience, the most culpable individuals are spineless teachers followed by spineless administrators...
The problem is that teachers have little to no power these days. Gone are the days of a rap on the knuckles for not paying attention in class. If they tried to do something like that now, the parents would sue the school. Parents will believe pretty much anything their child tells them, so teachers have to tread VERY carefully.
Disclaimer: IANAT, but my mother is a principal, so I hear a lot of stories.
Homonyms are fun!
You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
Exactly. If you could go to jail for being mean to someone, then just about everyone on slashdot would be arrested.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Being physically and verbally assaulted daily for long periods of time tends to damage mental health, especially when the authority figures you're supposed to look up to and count on consistently look the other way. Ever heard of PTSD?
Nothing makes you breathe, you choose to do it of your own accord. Care to try stopping?
I was bullied once and (being the smaller and weaker kid) bit my attacker. The principal's approach was to bring out boxing gloves and to tell us to fight it out like men. I'm not joking......
I have to ask... Why is that such a bad thing?
Generally speaking, anyhow. I understand that you personally may not have been prepared for a physical fight against someone you perceived to be bigger and stronger, but I see this as a problem with our modern society. Males are effectively neutered in Western society. Evolution has bred us to be muscular and twitchy, and yet we are expected to always be thoughtful and ... soft.
I was not a jock in high school. I did play soccer in middle school and did field/track in 9th grade, but nothing after that. It's not until the past 10 years that I've discovered that I was missing out. And for the past two years I've been doing Systema... It's totally changed my perception of the world. I feel that kids these days (gerroff mah lawn!) are missing out by not being physically active, and in particular they don't benefit from any martial arts. In the days of yore kids would have fights to settle spats, and it taught everyone their own limits as well as the usefulness (and uselessness in some situations) of fighting as conflict resolution. These days, fighting will get you detention or worse (a trip to the police station for popping some jerk in the mouth?)
This leads to seriously screwed-up kids with bottled emotions who decide that their only option is to come to school heavily armed and shoot the crap out of everyone. That's not right.
Let kids settle things out on the schoolyard. They'll learn a lot more from it than if we wait until they bring a bomb to school.
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
Breathing is a necessary and automatic function of life. Suicide is a decision you make and completely under your control. Epic analogy fail on your part.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Why would you go out of your way to call the recipient of extensive physical and psychological bullying defective?
The rule at law (at least in most common law based systems) is that you "take your victim as you find him".
The typically cited case is an assault victim with a "thin skull". The defense stating that the blow would not have injured a normal person. Even though the defendant had no reason to believe that his assault would cause injury he is still guilty as he did indeed cause injury with an intentional act.
So even if your actions would NOT cause a normal person to commit suicide, that may not be an adequate defense if someone pre-disposed to suicide does so after you bully them.
Basically this administrator stacked everything against me. He said that since everyone was picking on me, it must be my fault, and chose a venue for confrontation where I was going down. I am fairly anti-authoritarian and I think this has a lot to do with it.
I think if you read my posts carefully, I see most of the interference in the bullying directed against me as misguided. The boxing glove incident is a good example. Instead of letting us fight on the playground, tooth and nail as it were, he decided to teach me a lesson. The boxing match was designed to punish me for fighting back the only way I could. If he had let the fight continue in the school yard, that would have been one thing. I probably would have inflicted some substantial pain on my opponent and maybe he would have backed off.
But that's not what happened. Instead this was an example of where the school administration went out of their way to compound the bullying by restructuring things so that the bullying would be more effective.
I am not saying the school administration should have coddled me etc. However they ABSOLUTELY should not have come into the fight on the side of the bullies. Looking back on all of the difficulties I went through as a child, this is the only thing that still makes me angry.
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I believe you mean "ipso facto".
High school bullying counts as "Extreme methods". Take a human being, require them (upon pain of fines and imprisonment, or fines and imprisonment for those they love) to attend a school wherein they are teased, harassed both verbally and physically, and occasionally assaulted. Place them under the control of authority figures who range from indifferent to hostile to the attacks on them, but who make it clear they will come down hard on the victim should she attempt to retaliate or escape.
Almost certainly because you weren't involved in it and turned a blind eye.
Yes, the culture is even better at ignoring the problem.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
I got it worse. When I was in high school, there was this kid who was taller, stronger and (obviously) way more popular than I was. Since this was the perfect scenario for him to bully me, he did. And for the better part of a year, I did nothing in fear of getting my ass handed to me if I did.
One year, while we were in gym, he was assigned to the same "team" as I was and as I should've expected, he beamed the ball right to my face. That was my breaking point; when we got back in the locker room, we exchanged words and I punched him square in the nose. We faught; I got my face beat in and won the prize of getting suspended for a week. Despite having told administrators about this for months, if not longer.
C'est la vie.
It's possible they seduced her with the explicit intent of breaking her heart afterwards. It is possible to manipulate an already emotionally distraught girl into sex she might not otherwise have, with the purpose of hurting her afterwards. With two guys charged, it's possible they did it twice.
Now I know it's not all 'sophisticated' and 'enlightened' to say this, but sex, especially for an inexperienced teenager, is an emotionally significant event- the type of thing sociopaths could use to grind this girl down further.
Incidentally, this is part of the reason why all those silly old puritanical Americans encourage delaying sex- so that one may be emotionally ready for all it entails.
Now the response I expect from you is that 'it's only emotionally significant because we're puritans about it!', which, of course, I would disagree with. The truth isn't in the interests of horny males to state- that sex does matter in human relationships, that it's emotionally intensive, and that we should treat engaging in intercourse with due seriousness.
But we don't, we say it's no big deal, everyone is f*cking, etc, etc. So young people- like this poor girl- get in over their heads, because 'Everyone else can handle it, I should be able to as well.'
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Spineless... or criminally negligent. And yeah, there can be a difference.
This incident reminds me of the "bullying problem" that plagues Japanese schools (their media doesn't report on it anymore, which is unsurprising as they're the Asian equivalent of UK news sans BBC). The similarity is mainly that a bunch of kids team up to make life miserable for their target, and school officials are either clueless or don't lift a damn finger to stop them-- in the worst cases, the bullies essentially run the schoolyard because the faculty is hogtied by their parents from actually disciplining the kids (the "my little angel couldn't possibly be a bully" complex).
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
How is years of bullying by multiple people both in school and outside of school, not 'extreme methods' ?
It seems to me that a lot of activities which are described as "bullying" when done to high school kids, would be legally defined as "assault" if it were done to an adult. I understand the idea of granting minors some leniency in punishment, but I don't understand the downgrading the action simply because of the age of the victim. If those kids threw a full soda can at some 93 year old women, or pushed her down, or knocked her purse out of her hands - wouldn't that be assault, complete with arrest and pressing charges and all that?
You talk like a piece of shit fundie.
We don't like your kind of tea-baggot victim blame here.
By this retard's standards, post traumatic stress disorder is just plain weakness of the will.
If young people are turning to Yahoo Answers for help then it's not surprising that they have problems. How is babby formed?
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I am not saying the school administration should have coddled me etc. However they ABSOLUTELY should not have come into the fight on the side of the bullies. Looking back on all of the difficulties I went through as a child, this is the only thing that still makes me angry.
I apologize for what was a bit of wine-induced insensitivity. It sounds as if you had a really hard time of it due to bullies and clueless administrators, and I sympathize as someone who has long suffered from anxiety and insecurity.
My intent wasn't really to undermine your experiences, but to hijack your post to further my agenda of martial arts and general physical fitness as being a great way for males to experience the full range of their genetic potential. Or something like that.
I just wish I'd discovered the confidence-building experiences of martial arts and strength training when I was young and impressionable. I think I would have been a happier person, and I think that a lot of other guys suffer from social castration in our female-focused modern western societies. Don't get me wrong... I understand that this social model is more stable and generally better for the species; it just often leaves males aimless and impotent unless they're able to channel those energies effectively.
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
No one made her do it, she chose to do it on her own accord.
The premise behind this thinking has been more or less held invalid since the invention of theaters that may or may not be on fire. Saying something with the intention of causing other people to react in ways that cause harm to themselves or others is generally unacceptable.
acknowledging that people are responsible for their actions.
People are responsible for their actions but inhuman assholes get off scot-free?
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
I wasn't exactly popular when growing up, but regardless bullying just wasn't all that common. Yes there were fights, but there never was any need for police involvement.
I spent grade 13(OAC) in Canada and I've noticed
that students would mostly socialize with other from their ethnic/social groups and the fact that you were in a class together meant absolutely nothing. Teachers here are pretty much just tolerated by the students, and give an impression that they hate the school just as much as the students do.
Those are of course just my personal impressions.
Fuck you and your Asperger's-tainted worldview, you tiny-brained twat.
She was a little girl. She wasn't old enough to "make a choice" because she wasn't old enough to know any better. Worse, she was willfully ignored by the very people who were there to help her with that choice.
It should have been you. You with your stereotypical mouth-breathing hurr hurr basement-dweller holier-than-thou self reliance preach, too stupid to see past your pathetic isolation to ever truly connect with another human being.
The world is a smaller, sadder place now. Someone who felt something died, and we're stuck with another abhuman piece of shit like you.
It should have been you.
I find it pretty chilling that we are actually rewarding a teenager for suicide. This is a scary precedent. I mean, there are many teens who are bullied, and feel like they have no way to get back at the people who are making them miserable. But now, we seem to be giving them a means: All they have to do is kill themselves. That way their strongest desire is granted: They ruin the lives of the bullies they hate.
I can easily imagine some poor, miserable kid threatening to write a long litany about the abuses of the bullies and then killing herself in some horrible way - just to get the bullies to stop. But if they don't, some kid who thinks her life is worthless might just decide that she'll have the last laugh, comforted by the thought that her harassers sit in jail.
I'm not saying that bullying shouldn't be punished. I'm saying that there shouldn't be an extra punishment when the bullying leads to a suicide. If there is, then our legal policy gives the victims a reason to kill themselves, which is sick.
So you are saying we should punish bullies because their "victims" may be mass murders? Usually I'd end this with some condescending yet humorous insult, but you just might go on a killing spree and I don't want the law to come down on me...oh wait...
Win a signed Stephen Carpenter ESP Guitar from the Deftones: http://def-tag.com/?r=0008781
I believe that this sets a dangerous precedent. From now on, any teenage suicide will be scrutinized from the perspective of "Whose fault is this." Everyone has been bullied to some extent, so there will always be someone to blame.
In this case, the bullying seems to be above and beyond what most children endure. However, do trust the court system to use judicial restraint and only prosecute cases such as these? Probably not.
Yes, it is, in way - it forces shame on certain people/groups. I can't imagine an Irish Catholic immigrant girl being willing to tell her parents the full details of why she was being so abused by others.
I agree with you about martial arts, btw. There's something about being confident and being able to win a fight that is a great deterrence. It also builds a host of other skills which can be helpful in many other unrelated circumstances.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I wouldn't really call it a paradox. If five kids are beating up on one kid, then that tends to represent five parents who will vote for a School Board that will hire teachers that will let their five kids do as they please; meanwhile, the one kid with their one parent will be in a much more difficult position of trying to convince other voters that it's worthwhile to protect their one child through some sort of administrative action instead of leaving it to the child to defend himself/herself, under some belief that it builds character or it's a necessary life skill to fend for oneself amongst one's peers.
In short, a complacent democracy tends to allow those who have some sort of vested interest to have their way. Of course, as you sort of note, possible lawsuits from those five parents is a pretty good extortion (aka bullying) against a populace who hates higher taxes. But, then, one could argue that bullying is allowed to happen in general because the child's peers aren't willing to be involved either in defending, even in a slight way, a random peer. My point is, bullying is just a rather good example of parental and child behavior being similar and a rather large problem with democracies in general.
Of course, once a parent perceives a "real" threat against his/her child, they're quite willing to act. So, teacher/administrator action is much more scrutinized. As much as hyperinflating an issue is a bad thing, inflating the importance of peer bullying in actual causing real harm and being a real threat isn't a bad thing. However, there's certainly a lot of communities who aren't really structured with that sort of consideration of protecting the group to protect one's own.
Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
You saw one? Where? Let me get my camera!
Seriously a lot of workplaces are pretty close to high school in maturity levels -- if it doesn't have to do with raising kids, which somehow manages to freak modern adults out so much they simply have to act somewhat maturely, I seriously doubt that many of the 30-somethings I run into these days have done much growing since they stopped changing pants sizes. (And some of them still do that, though in a different direction :-)
Someone had to do it.
What other course of action was available to her... sadly, this seems to be the way things are heading. Popularity is the rule and people look the other way.
People who are bullied cannot have outlets, cause if someone sees disturbing journals they get suspended or expelled. After reading about the history of bullying at that school, I'm surprised there hasn't been a shooting yet. But then again, she's from Ireland, probably never even crossed her mind.
Why is it that bullying ending in death of a person has such minimal charges? The appropiate charges should be a minimum of manslaughter if not murder in the 2nd degree. If this was to happen I think there would be a drop in the offences. Also there needs to be more serious charges put in place in regards to cyber bullying.
I do not need to waste my time arguing with what seems to be a bully angry with what I wrote. I just need to mention the various problems in the U.S. are having with people who, desperate to stop the bullying - and no one bothers to avoid - end up committing even worse acts. But for you a bunch of sociopaths to harass a person she did not see another way out other than suicide is more "acceptable", right?
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Is being a big dick a way of compensating for having a small dick?
Let me say it again: Suicide Is Irrational. Without extreme methods, you simply can't drive a mentally healthy person to suicide.
Let me guess, YOU were the school bully.
And you bullied anyone who didn't share your view of the world.
since you were mean to me here
Mens rea. Intentionally causing a panic is different than coughing loudly and someone thinking it sounded like "fire". I'm sorry you were so easily startled by the noise.
As for my "lack" of reasoning, I thought it was pretty clear: intentionally causing harm is a limit on free speech that has been accepted for a long time now.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
http://www.theonion.com/ and search for columbine jocks safely resume bullying.
No, his reasoning was just fine. Your logic and lack of evidence of his 'being mean' on the other hand smacks of intellectual dwarfism. If you plan on arguing with your betters, you might want to get a book on the art of written persuasion.
Then again someone who wastes the space in their signature encouraging people to sign an online petition with the fantasy that it will have any effect really would not have the brains to spend on some as intellectual as 'reading'. Try going somewhere else to get all up in arms about something you don’t understand and can't discuss rationally. I know you need such things to validate your pathetic existence, but the rest of the world doesn't need to hear it.....now THAT was being mean. I'm wondering, did it elicit an emotional response? If you were bombarded by it constantly 24/7/365 through every communications channel you had, while at the same time in an emotionally sensitive state (new town, new country, new culture, the emotional and physical turmoil of teen life, no adult response to the problem for months), do you think that might be tough to handle?
Sorry for the trolling, just trying to make a point.
Yes I was. From grade 2 to grade 6. I was the new kid in school in a very close-knit town. My graduating class had 112 people, and all but about 15 of those were born in town.
Like many nerds, I had terrible social skills, so I already had trouble making friends.
I went through therapy - both with the school, and group.
Not even once did I remotely consider suicide.
You're right. Maybe I had it too easy. But I also was raised right by my parents, who taught me that all the BS was unimportant and that it shouldn't affect me. I'm a much healthier person because of it.
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
I was thinking of torture in a "Saw" type environment.
I don't think it does qualify. See a sibling post of mine.
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
Are you kidding me? I was ostracized for 6 years. I *never* had more than two friends in high school, and they were uncomfortable around me. I had terrible social skills.
I couldn't bully anyone if I tried. Literally - I was so pathetic that I couldn't have pulled it off, even if I'd wanted to.
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
Defective? I wouldn't say that. She was maturing, and clearly not getting the emotional support she needed from her parents. And that should've started from birth.
I went through a terrible, long period of bullying (see a sibling post) and I never considered suicide, even in passing. It simply never occurred to me, because I had a wonderfully supportive family.
I'm really sorry for her that she didn't seem to have one. But the fact that she didn't develop emotionally to be able to shrug it off, fight her own battles, disregard others' opinions - as she clearly needed to - could be considered a defect (though I wouldn't use that word).
It's more like she didn't develop the skin she needed because she wasn't there yet. And she could've been. It's sad, but she should've realized that high school is over really quickly in the span of one's life.
I did, and it got me through just fine.
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
Amanda Brownell is an ex-classmate of my kids here in San Jose, California. In December 2008, Amanda attempted suicide at school. I understand there were texts left on Amanda's cell phone that suggested she had been bullied. Her family apparently had no idea this was happening.
Today, Amanda lives in a nursing home, and is fed by a tube. You can read her story here:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/amandabrownell/mystory
Of course not. It's a well-understood psycological condition in response to severe stress. I once was trying to save a 9 year old's life and failed. I sure know what PTSD is, and there wasn't a thing I could do to snap out of it.
But if I'd killed myself because of it, there'd be something wrong with me. The deepest instinct we have is self-preservation. To consciously go against that is, by definition, irrational. The struggle for life is so built-in, one can't build a rational argument for it.
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
Ostracized? How about verbally and physically harassed (that is, constantly jeered at, pushed, shoved, smacked, had your books knocked out of your hands frequently?) How about seriously attacked (punched, kicked)? Until you've had the experience of that, 5 days a week, 38 weeks a year, for several years, you've got no idea.
Or else I will kill myself and get you guys into big trouble!
This is modded flamebait? Either people aren't getting an obvious joke, or perhaps they are playing along and "bullying" him through negative moderation. (I have been similarly victimized myself, but I have gone to therapy!)
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Its the same reason why most people support the police even if they are blatantly sadistic; because, " If someone is being beaten up by cops they must of done something stupid/wrong/criminal " . We have had police here in PDX kill 6 people with mental illness this year. One of them was shot 10 times in the back with an assault rifle, no charges but the grand jury admonished him and the department anyways.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Well, I don't want to marginalize what you went through, but I doubt many kids in grade six even know what suicide really is. Saying that from grades two to six that you never considered it is rather disingenuous. Even if you did know all about it, that'd be a severe rarity. And most kids don't get really vicious about the bullying until Junior High. I'd not say you had it easy, since being bullied never is, but I'd also say that you didn't get a true look at how bad it can get. Hell, even I didn't get it as bad as it can be, mostly because I finally took down one of my main aggressors, and they left me alone to my face after that. But I still saw what happened to my friends, so I know that it absolutely can break a person to the point of mental instability.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
When bullying is in the playground, it's just bullying. When it's online, it suddenly becomes cyberbullying. And that's a problem.
Sean Mulveyhill, 17, charged with statutory rape, civil rights violations, criminal harassment and disturbance of a school assembly.
Kayla Narey, 17, civil rights violations, criminal harassment, disturbance of a school assembly.
Austin Renaud, 18, statutory rape.
Ashley Longe, 16, civil rights violations.
Flannery Mullins, 16, civil rights violations, stalking.
Sharon Chanon Velazquez, 16, civil rights violations, stalking.
Three other juvenile girls, all unnamed, have been charged with civil rights violations, criminal harassment, and assault.
If you ever have the opportunity to interview them for a job, bounce them.
Better yet, maybe someone here knows how to show them a little of their own medicine.
Yeah, but we all hate you. This girl was hot, so completely different situation.
It can be argued that the victim was free to choose another path; for example, she could run away from the hated school, from her uncaring parents, and from the heartless people of the town.
Actually it can't be argued. I agree with the general tenor of your argument and I know you only setting this up to knock it down, but the principle at play here is the eggshell skull principle. You take your victim as you find them. The fact that your victim has a particular weakness or propensity is no defence to a charge or manslaughter, for instance.
If you stomp on an infant's head and it dies, it is no defence that an adult would have survived said stomp, though it may be true. If you bully a person who has a predisposition to commit suicide and they do, very clearly you are still responsible for their death.
The suicide (this one, at least) wouldn't happen without actions of the defendants
That is absolutely true. It is the reason this is very close to manslaughter. It's the reason these kids need to go down. However, the act of suicide is itself novus actus interveniens, but for which the victim would not be dead.
Nonetheless it is clearly wrong to ascribe all of the responsibility to the victim here and none to the perpetrators. The question of personal responsibility here cuts both ways. The law does hold you responsible for the outcome of your actions, a fortiori where the outcome is obvious and foreseeable, as in a victimised teenager committing suicide.
But we must not forget that the killers here are teenagers, famously lacking the maturity to discern the foreseeable as well as in compassion. We have to cut them a bit of slack on that account, so I think it would be wrong for the ringleaders to get much more than 10 years.
Bullying and police involvement have basically nothing in common. I mean who would call the police because I got blackboard erase cloths thrown at me on a regular basis?
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Oi, as a person with AS, I do see the difference between right and wrong, and can appreciate shades of gray.... Just because the parent post was a dick with a mindset better suited to middle management does not mean they had AS. True, human interaction is a little tetchy at times to say the least, but there are limits... Like Bob from the Dresden file books, sometimes something is so "Evil" that even a being with a hazy moral compass can identify it as uncomfortably evil.....
Because the only thing that a fight settles is who can win that fight.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't. At least for these guys. There is a new law (although I'm not sure if it's made its way to PA yet) called the Peterson Law. It's the law that allows for hearsay to be admissable if the accuser is deceased as a result of any relation to the claim. So, they either damn themselves by testifying against themself or allow the hearsay. I want to feel bad for them, but the more I think about it, it was TWO GUYS; it wasn't like they were having a deep meaningful relationship or anything.
The physical and blatant bullying stopped at grade 6, but I was always delibrately made an outcast.
Part of it was I really just stopped caring about what people thought of me - gave up any chance of a social life there. So I was sort of allowed to be a loner, because I wasn't trying to integrate myself.
And I sure as hell did know what suicide was. I even knew that some people would've attempted it in the situation I was in. The idea just seemed silly to me.
But I'm eternally indebted to my parents. When I came home, it was to a supportive, normal-feeling family where I fit right in. I never hated, nor even disliked my parents, like the rest of my peers.
Now that I think of it, my family situation sounds very unusual. That depresses the hell out of me, because it was great.
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
People need to get this concept through their thick skulls:
Being offended is healthy, normal, and a positive feeling.
Many things will offend you. Deal with it.
The second thing they need to understand is:
The internet is a free place. ANYTHING GOES. There are NO crimes on the internet. If the actions on the internet extend to real life actions, then punish those actions, but you can't control the internet. Example: If some guy sends the blueprints for a bomb over the internet to another guy, and this second guy builds the bomb and deploys it, the crime is setting up a fucking bomb, not sending the blueprints over the web.
Every single other aspect of life is already controlled by some TLA agency. What I do in my own house is my own business. What I say can't be censored. What I do on the internet can't be controlled, censored or restricted in any way.
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
Exactly. Loud mouth kids the teachers can barely control don't get the heat. The kid that gets bullied gets the heat. Yelled at. Outed, and forced to more torture and abuse (physical, emotional, structural). The teachers are often worse than the kids. If the kid brings a gun to school to protect himself, he is a 'nutter with a gun' but its ok for him to be abused daily. Punching, kicking, body slams, spitting, abuse are all fair game. It disgusts me.
Another Eastern European here, and I concur what Parent said. Bullying may have been a problem in 1st grade when you barely know where your classroom was, but after that it was not a big problem.
One part of the answer why it was different in Eastern Europe is because the teachers (used to) have authority. It was unheard of to disrupt class, talk back, or, God forbid, fight with a teacher. In most cases the parents would be doing the physical penalty, even if the school only dings a point off your "behavior" number. But then again, parents also had authority back in the days.
Of course, the mass pussification is slowly taking hold of Europe as well...
just desserts
Unless you literally meant icing and cake, it's spelled just deserts. It comes from the word `deserve' and has nothing to do with low downpour terrain nor the final course of a multicourse meal. It's pronounced like "desserts", though, which confuses a lot of people.
</picking-of-nits>
Kinda makes me wonder when the school shooting fad will hit again.
I also was raised in eastern Europe and I can say that bullying was as bad - or even worse - there as is in western Europe.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
So you are saying we should punish bullies because their "victims" may be mass murder[er]s?
Not "may be" but "may become." Kids learn not only from their teachers.
"I'm astonished every time I hear about bullying in North America. "
There was bullying in Mexico reported too?
Ah, in Canada then?
South Americans are Americans too.
As are Central Americans.
American, or North American is incorrectly used to designate a USA citizen in the Americas especially and it'll be mocked snidely. Sometimes even Latin Americans make the faux pas.
I particularly love it when USA citizens refer to home as "the States." Syllables are cheap add a U-ni-ted why don't you. Not to mention the trite, beat to the death "on the other side of the pond." Gad, save words, just say "across the Atlantic," you're not cool just pedestrian in your language use.
Eats shoot and leaves. You pander bear.
Shouldn't it be enough to tell a bully, that picking on someone can put you on top of his death list, should he ever snap?...
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
You'll note that the adults on the scene - the school administrators and teachers who knew what was happening and did nothing to prevent these crimes - are not being given the legal penalties that they so richly deserve. If the attacks were felonies, then in many states those school employees would be co-conspirators and charged accordingly. What the kids did was very wrong - but they're kids and aren't held to the same standards as adults are. But what the school staff did (or didn't do) is just plain wrong. Any functioning adult that would stand by and watch a child be abused isn't fit to work at a school.
I was bullied in school as I was an introvert guy, up until I decided I couldn't take it any more. After some serious fistfighting that resulted in bloody wounds, the bullying stopped. Unfortunately, the only solution is to fight back.
jesus reading thru these slashdot comments by all of you people who were bullied and are now trying to equate your struggles to this poor little girl makes me want to slash my wrists
Otherwise known as eggshell skull rule.
The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor who was unaware of the condition injured that person's head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the defendant would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even if
1. such damages were not reasonably foreseeable, or
2. the tortfeasor did not intend to cause such a severe injury.
"I'm astonished every time I hear about bullying in North America. "
South Americans are Americans too.
True, but South Americans are not generally considered North Americans.
I particularly love it when USA citizens refer to home as "the States." Syllables are cheap add a U-ni-ted why don't you.
For the same reason I say "Germany" and not "Federal Republic of Germany" or "China" and not "People's Republic of China." Human laziness. (Actually, considering that "Mexico" is properly called "United States of Mexico," the moniker "United States" is almost as ambiguous as "States", and one can use the same argument for calling "USA" "America" as one uses for calling "Estados Unidos Mexico" "Mexico")
I'll bite - I was bullied in school, and the thought of suicide never crossed my mind. I did consider murder, though. Perhaps murder is too strong a word. I put a slit in the vinyl cover of my Trapper Keeper and slid in a long knife with the handle removed and replaced with a wrap of duct tape - the whole thing was about 8" long, very thin, and fit inside the cover nicely, invisibly. I said to myself that if those three kids (they were in the 11th grade, I the 8th) ever cornered me on the way home from school I would wait until they crowded me, and simply slide the knife out and drive it into the stomach of whoever was closest. I practiced it at home in my room for literally hours. Slide it out, drive it in. Easy. Would 5 or 6 inches of knife blade have killed someone? Maybe. Why didn't it happen? Because for some reason they moved on to torment someone else. It is essentially pure and random chance that lead me to not killing somone, and that thought is a little chilling. But as I started out saying, bullying, even something like daily bullying for more than a year, with some real physical injuries to show for it, and I never thought of killing myself.
Jealously hoarding mod points since 2007.
So in the physical world, especially in the past, if you were bullied, you either sucked it up, went to the gym and worked out and sought revenge, or got an upperclassmen or sibling to wreak some havoc on someone. How do kids do this in the virtual world? Hack accounts and seek revenge?
This stuff has moved from physical bullying to virtual bullying. Here is what I learned from the article or had reinforced:
* Teenagers suck.
* Teenagers suck at coping with problems.
* Teenagers suck at accepting change.
* If you are teenager, know the laws regarding statutory rape because if you piss off someone, then their parents can press charges.
* The belief that things will change if left alone is fantasy.
* That examples like this happen all the time, now a bunch of kids have to cope with the fact that they treated someone like shit and she killed herself because of it. That's something that is probably going to stick with them years from now.
* Teenagers suck.
* Teenagers should probably be locked up at home until after high school.
* Sometimes serving as an example sucks, but who knows what else it has prevented.
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
One of the problems is that in America high school exists to get the kids credentialed into college. It is not run to get the kids civilized into adulthood. These kids are wealthy. If they had been disciplined for bullying this girl, their parents would have threatened to sue the school for compromising their college prospects.
I'm sure the parents of these predators have been repeatedly informed of their kids' outrageous behavior. The likely reaction: they abetted it. Now laugh as they cut huge checks to lawyers to defend felony raps. Sometimes, the karma wagon makes a delivery at a correct address.
A) Teach your kids to fight. Flat out, if a bully gets the shit kicked out of them it's usually a good way to get them to stop, because they'll continue to get the shit kicked out of them.
B) For any of your kids that are being bullied, tell them to think of it this way: "Wouldn't it be a huge disservice to the world if these kids grow up and have children and raise them in the same way?" That's pretty much would helped me get through some of the crap I went through in HS.
Seriously, fighting back is the only way. You won't get into too much trouble by hitting some kid. Suspension? Okay, big deal. Kid stays home from school and then they get to go outside and do whatever they want. If you're a smart parent, you would realize why your kid was in the right and wouldn't punish them.
Actually, I think the full, official name for Mexico is "Los Estados Unidos de Mexico". The Federal Capital is known as "Mexico." It drove me crazy until my dad, a Spanish teacher, explained what the answer, "a Mexico" to the question, "Adonde va?" really meant.
(says the gringo from the Upper Midwest who hasn't cracked a Spanish textbook or done more than order a beer in Spanish in probably 25 years. :) )
Not to defend the actions, but I know what you mean. I was a target of a group of bullies for a few years while the administration did nothing. It didn't stop until I beat the crap out of one of them with a bat in gym class.
Serious Question:
Some girl kills herself because she was "bullied" and the individuals are charged with all kinds of things (including rape?)-- THEY ARE AT FAULT, NOT HER...., but, some guy was "bullied" by the IRS, and kills himself by flying his plane into their building, and he's just a loon, no charges, no investigation, HE'S AT FAULT, NOT THEM.
Why is it that we have one set of laws for some people, and another set of laws for other people?
Please tell me how these two cases are different.
Why are the charges different?
Why is the person to blame for the tragic consequenses different?
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I am not disputing what you say at all. But let's be clear that "eastern Europe" is pretty vague. Experiences in Hungary, for example, might be quite different than those in, say, Bulgaria. And there is a sense of adult entitlement in most of the ex-USSR that is self-destructive to those societies in a way that is far far worse than any punk American kid who thinks he deserves an expensive car because he turned 16.
This has been the teacher and administrator MO since I was in school in the 60s.
I certainly felt the full fury of this one. I actually got kicked out of a school (Del Mar Middle School in Santa Cruz county, California) for beating up a kid... after I'd been there for more than a year of being bullied including treatment like this; stuff knocked out of my hands, physically attacked, continually verbally abused, forced to live in a state of terror which led to years of depression. And he started the fight and wouldn't let me leave, I literally begged him to stop before something in me snapped and I kicked the shit out of him. Time to go to school... I'm sick, I'd rather spend the day in bed, thanks. And my body will happily cook up some physical symptoms, too. Public school is evil and even if your kid is one of the ones who fits in and is only conditioned to accept violence around him rather than actually being bullied, sending them there is still child abuse. And yes, I tell this to my friends with children who send them to public school. I might even argue that allowing your child to attend public school is abuse, e.g., even if they want to go. It teaches them to accept the mob mentality and the cost of that is inestimable for all of us.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
People are responsible for their actions but inhuman assholes get off scot-free?
--- ---
Yes, that's called People VS. Corporations.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I'm sure there were quite a few bullied kids who, upon seeing the events of Columbine unfold on TV, cheered for Klebold and Harris.
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
When I was in HS (oh so long ago), I got hassled, including waking up one night with a lighter and an aerosol can going off over my head. It lasted until the day I snapped and tried to pound one of my tormentors into the ground. He ran away, I got punished by school administration. Worth it, though; I stopped getting hassled. I have rarely used violence to solve my problems, but every time I have, it's worked really, really well.
No OS on the planet can protect itself from a user with the admin password. - Yvan256
Ditto-ish. I grew up on a beef ranch, so I never felt emasculated, but martial arts is one of the greatest things for kids, I think. Self-control, self-confidence, self-defense, and a socially acceptable outlet for the desire to enter direct physical contests.
No OS on the planet can protect itself from a user with the admin password. - Yvan256
You can't respect a profession which takes credit for a community effort and then denies responsibility for something that's supposed to be their domain of excellence.
Teachers stand up and state that they are building the future minds of the country, but when those minds come out sloppy and misshapen, they blame the parents, the administration, the poor economic conditions, the quality of the classroom, lack of pay, etc.
I get this. The thing is, if this happened in a workplace, the perps would be in jail.
But we allow it to happen to *children* every day.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
So you are saying we should punish bullies because their "victims" may be mass murders? Usually I'd end this with some condescending yet humorous insult, but you just might go on a killing spree and I don't want the law to come down on me...oh wait...
We should prevent bullies from harming others because harm begets harm just as violence begets violence. If punishment is necessary, then let it occur. Putting schoolyard bullies to work improving their academic standing is probably the most logical response. I suggest teaching them history. Even if it is only effective as punishment through boredom, it will still likely be superior to other subjects in providing useful reeducation.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Could it be the culture here?
The situation you describe suggests that a sense of competition in America overwhelms the sense of collaboration present in Eastern Europe.
I think this is consistent with the political and economic models that form the basis of society in these two different parts of the world. If things really are as you say in Eastern Europe, maybe there are different factors that make the competitive model superior to the collaborative one?
I mean, if you've slept with two guys within two weeks of arriving at a school, and are Irish, then being called an "Irish Slut", while rude, is not necessarily libel...
a bunch of childless nerds telling people about how children are.
"and that her teachers were aware of it and did nothing"
That's the real issue here. Chuildren will bully. That behavior needs to be corrected, and instead it gets ignored.
Children are bullied.
The victims of bulling can not strike back physically.
That mean an authority must step in and stop it.
What happens is that Bullies are ignored by teachers, and kids who strike back get suspended.
A girls ego/self worth/ and value gets destroyed by bullying.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
From about grade 3 through to the end of high school. I was "well known", but definitely not popular (mainly due to mouthing off the *wrong* individual early on when he tried to assert his dominance).
We're not talking just the usual name-calling crap either, but some rather extensive beatings that to this day have left small scars on the back of my head, and my two front teeth are a bit lower than they should be due to being punched in the face.
The GP was likely not the victim of such systematic torment, or is too old to remember being young. It's not just the events happening at the time, it's the steady flow of mind-and-mood adjusting chemicals that tends to lend towards all sorts of rapid swings of mood.
The funny thing is, I was more or less *voted* by the general populace to be most likely to go off the deep end, and yet I'm not one of those that ended up with scarred wrists, a nasty addiction, or any other such things. For all the torment, I just dove into other things that kept me distanced from the BS that was going on.
I still remember to this day being very, very confused when there was a period of about a week where everyone in school was being unusually nice to me. I couldn't figure it out until about 2-3 days in when somebody told me about the Columbine incident. It seemed odd to me, since I wasn't a trenchcoat wearer and had little interest in guns/weapons/violence.
So maybe my hobbies kept me sane, who knows. I did like games like quake, doom, etc, which may have help relieve frustrations (but really it was just fun to get out and compete with people on my level).
To those in similar situations, life gets much better after high school. In the meantime, get out on your bike or whatever, get some some, and a bit of exercise. Sun = vitamin D = happier.
After high school, you will likely meet more friends of similar interests in college etc, and if you do something about poor self-maintenance, probably some girls as well.
Try meeting girls as just friends. Don't try and get in their pants. You'll learn a lot.
Or, and stay away from drugs and excess. If you survived up until the end of high school, then things that mess up your mental state aren't likely to be all that helpful.
well, education systems in eastern europe are trying to emulate western models (god knows why) so things are changing for the worse all over .. however the sense of entitlement here in schools is
in my opinion unmatched. Teachers are the best paid in the world, schools have amazing equipment (comparing to eastern europe), and yet you get all these problems. I won't mention the fact that if you're a good student here you're called a geek, where as in europe you're admired by your peers. I find that really strange.
I'm curious about schools in Asia & Africa.. do they have a bullying problem as well? of the same magnitude? anyone?
I'm in pretty much the same boat; I used to seem very well adjusted...
Then things fell apart, I found out I have no real supports in my life, and I fell. Hard
Anyone who wants to tell me I'm inferior because I've attempted suicide can fuck right off.
You had a plan to fight back. A foolish one that would have caused you a lifetime of problems, but a plan. There were those of us that contemplated suicide but never contemplated fighting back. Some kids are just predisposed to being pacifist and in our society it is (often rightly) encouraged. I don't want to trivialize your experience because clearly if you were driven to those extreme measures you had it rough. But it doesn't sound like you truly knew the depths of helplessness some of these kids feel who don't realize that they can and *should* fight back when the system is failing them.
My son is now nearly 3 years old and is showing a lot of the same traits I showed when I was a kid. He's incredibly kind and conscientious but self-conscious and meek when around other kids. My job over the next 15 years will be to teach him how to be confident and assertive while keeping his kindness. I plan on enrolling him in judo at a young age both to teach him the gentle way, but also to teach him the tools he will need if he ever ends up in the same kind of situations I was in when I was a kid.
The irony of this being modded "Troll"...
Yet Another Tech Blog
(but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
http://yanteb.peasantoid.org
Well, of course. I was actually refering to Zill's comment as being insightful. But, naturally, that has been degraded to -1 Flamebait at this point.
Moderation : -1 Conservative Viewpoint
Of course not. It's a well-understood psycological condition in response to severe stress. I once was trying to save a 9 year old's life and failed. I sure know what PTSD is, and there wasn't a thing I could do to snap out of it.
But if I'd killed myself because of it, there'd be something wrong with me. The deepest instinct we have is self-preservation. To consciously go against that is, by definition, irrational. The struggle for life is so built-in, one can't build a rational argument for it.
The situation you describe here and the situation under discussion are like night and day.
In your example of PTSD, there was no perpetrator. No mens rea, no actus reus. There is no one to be held accountable, as far as I can tell from your brief story.
PTSD is horrible. My condolences go out to you for what you experienced, and I'm glad that you survived it.
The fact remains that this girl did NOT survive, and that she was pushed to it by people with intent to inflict harm and/or emotional distress. That in and of itself is a crime.
They deserve to be held accountable for their actions.
That line seems to resonate with the Slashdot crowd, but I can't recall any case of it actually happening. Columbine was misconstrued as a case of fighting back against bullies around here (including comments below), but that wasn't the motive behind Columbine at all.
http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/
Can you point out any specific incidents where a bullied kid turned into a mass murderer?
Hmm.. I'm from Eastern Europe as well, I've studied in several schools and the situation was different in each of them.
When I started going to school - everything was 100% user-friendly, I really enjoyed studying during those years.
At a later stage in my life my family moved to another city, the new school wasn't as good. On my 3min walk to school I could get bullied by people studying in another school (it was on the route), or by people from other grades in my school. And I've seen a lot of intra-class bullying too.
The culture is the same (the country is very small [Moldova], I suppose there is not much variation here).
I think the explanation is that in my first school teachers would establish a personal contact with every child and get involved in our lives. In the other schools the teachers would keep the distance and limit themselves to "I've discussed the materials with you, I'm done"; there were a few exceptions - and with those teachers things were always under control.
Such an attitude has 2 effects:
- for the good kids: "I know that someone cares" (thus studying is encouraged)
- for the bad kids: "I know that someone watches me" (thus bullying is discouraged)
The saddest poem