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Best Buy Unapologetic About Charging For PS3 Firmware Updates
donniebaseball23 writes "After discovering that electronics retailer Best Buy was charging ignorant customers $30 for the 'service' of installing updated firmware on PS3s, IndustryGamers got word from the company on its policy. Best Buy sees no problem with charging for this convenience, even though it's something Sony provides to PS3 owners completely free. 'While many gamers can handle firmware upgrades easily on their own, those customers who do want help can get it from Geek Squad, and we continue to evaluate this offering to ensure it meets their needs. The service goes beyond a firmware updates, and includes user account setup, parental control setup and other components,' a representative said."
hey retards, you're paying for labor
if you pay for a firmware update, you deserve to have $30 taken away from you
sony will do it for free if you send it in for 6-8 weeks. eat that
A company making a killing on a service sees no problem with offering it? I am shocked. Shocked, I say!
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Are you appalled by the charging or the ignorance? The entire IT service industry works on this principle.
Anyone who paid for this deserves to lose their money. They can think of it as a teaching moment, and will ultimately be better off for it. The worst thing we can do for people like this is have some nanny-state government agency force Best Buy to refund them. This will ensure they learn nothing and continue making stupid idiotic decisions.
Seriously, if you own an electronic product and can't even handle installing simple updates just take it back to the store and be done with it. It's 2010 already: no more excuses.
I charge to installing free virus scanner software, free backup service, free driver updates & running free utilities on people's computers. I see no problem with this. If' you're not sophisticated enough to know the updates are free, you probably aren't sophisticated enough to do the update yourself.
It's sad but true - sometimes people just want to be reassured that someone who knows what they're doing is taking care of the problem, even if all it really is is some dude pressing "okay, update yourself" in the back room.
So, if my grandma took in her computer to pay to have them do a defrag and update some drivers, maybe run a q-tip across the DVD drive laser--all things that she could do for free at home--she's getting robbed?
I don't get the controversy here, unless BB was lying about what they were doing.
My debut novel AMITY now available: http://jeremydbrooks.c
How is this different from paying someone to install/upgrade an OS or applications, remove viruses, install a hard drive, add RAM, upgrade a video card, etc? All of these things can be simply done by an end user with a small amount of instruction.
Or changing the oil in your car, or washing your car, or the many simple things we pay other people to do for us?
but best buy is pre loading it and forcing you to buy it with work done and non pre loading ones are out of stock.
and then when you try to buy they push a $50-$80 monster HDMI cable on you.
so go to another store, let best buy charge whatever they want, and let consumers and the market show them their sins.
www.RacquetUp.org - Helping Detroit Youth
Don't advertise your services by spamming everyone...
... if you own an electronic product and can't even handle installing simple updates just take it back to the store and be done with it. It's 2010 already: no more excuses.
Consider an automotive enthusiast's site where someone posted: "If you own a car and can't wash it yourself, or change the oil or filters, or rotate the tires then take it back to the dealership and be done with it." Do you think many of the techies around here would pass this test?
As someone who has worked for Geek Squad in the past, I have to say that we do not enjoy charging people for this kind of nonsense, but you would not believe how many people come into the store wanting a firmware update on their Blu-Ray player, XBox, or even their iPod. Since it is a business obviously we are not going to step away from a paying customer to set up a machine and download a firmware update for free, so we charge them our lowest service cost, $29.99 for a 1/2 hour labor. Best Buy eventually realized this was a service we were performing on a regular basis and created a "Firmware Update" service for that $29.99 cost.
I really have to stress how many people come in requesting a service like this. I tried to convince people many times just to go home, plug in their device and simply head to the 'download updates' section, but I would constantly get responses like "I don't have internet", "Its just too confusing" and "I don't want to do it myself". Its idiots like this that create a market for a simple service downloading updates, and Best Buy would be even dumber to turn away potential revenue from customers that are willing to pay for something this simple.
Wasn't there an article on here about how Denon only carried $15 HDMI cables at one time, but then created a $150 HDMI cable when their high end customers were demanding a better cable just because they wanted to spend more? I think its kind of the same principle. You cater to your clients and Best Buy's are just one step above Wal-Mart's.
So let Best Buy hurt them; I think we could all learn a lesson. We should look at idiots not as a nuisance, but as livestock to be milked for everything they're worth. Don't hate Best Buy; they're doing the Lord's work. Profit is just a fortunate side-effect.
Best Buy was once differentiated from their competition due to better customer service, knowledgeable employees, and polite sales staff. Since their primary competition (Circuit City and CompUSA) have gone away, they have slowly moved away from these values. I still enjoy going into the stores because of their enormous selection, but where else am I going to shop?
...or you can buy it online for 4-9% cheaper (8.25% more expensive here in Dallas - no sales tax online - why would you ever buy consumer electronics at brick and mortar?) and have it shipped straight to your door for free. No hard upsell on overpriced cables (they're $3-11 online), no stupid coupons or "would you like to use your $retailer_X card today? would you like to apply for one?" questions, no "extended warranty" etc etc ad nauseum. I rarely go in to consumer electronics stores if I can help it, and grudgingly go into Radio Shack or Fry's if I need some sort of obscure connector, cable, or adapter TODAY.
moox. for a new generation.
I see both sides here. The reason most people who are upset about this are bothered seems to be that it's something that seems trivial to them. On the other hand, to Johnny Layman, perhaps 'installing firmware' brings to mind Druidic runes and rituals beyond comprehension - so he takes it to his Best Buy and pays a fee to avoid having to do the work himself. The process is still simple, but what Mr. Layman is paying for is the peace of mind knowing that it is being done by 'professionals' (at least, supposedly). It's not really any different from when Grandma calls a tech support service (and pays for it) because her router needs reset. Sure, she could do it herself, but it's intimidating and there's a fear of 'breaking' something.
To go off on a tangent for a moment, I feel that this is honestly the root cause of a lot of problems when it comes to the typical user and computers. Most people who were around before or at the very beginning of the advent of computers are simply intimidated and say that they're afraid of breaking the computer. They don't know how they would 'break' it, there is just that ever-present fear of the computer somehow being destroyed if they touch it. I try explaining that it's really hard to actually 'break' a computer short of physically damaging the hardware and that when your data is backed up on the company network, there's really not a lot to be afraid of, but it's no use. You can walk them through it step-by-step, but if you don't physically sit down at the computer and do it yourself, they'll still be afraid of something going wrong.
thats a great idea! until other retailers....
start doing the same thing
customers stop asking questions and just pay for it.
this has less to do with best buy charging fee and more to do with ethical behavior.
they say it is often more relevant then the comment above, all we know is its called the Sig!
this has less to do with best buy charging fee and more to do with ethical behavior.
But what is unethical about it?
... and then they built the supercollider.
Amazon.com
Newegg.com
Frys.com
Anyone who still shops at Best Buy is a fucking idiot and deserves to lose at least $30. May Best Buy go the way of Circuit City.
This is right up your alley Mr. Kristopeit.
You are THE Idiot! Please go away!
(all of) /.
Another way of looking at it: Best Buy is preying on people's fears and lack of knowledge. If Best Buy straight out said that this is an automatic system update that you can get by bringing the thing home and plugging it in, I might be more understanding. There genuinely are people who bought PS3's as DVD players, and which will never see a game disk or a network that could upgrade the firmware. And maybe those people aren't savvy enough to download the update from sony.com. Those people could use a service like that.
That's not who Best Buy is pitching the service to, however. The inclusion of "PSN Plus!" on the list of features shows that they're advertising to people who intend to bring this online, but who may fear lack of stability, etc. It's preying on fears and ignorance. If we want the consumers and the market to show them their sins, then as consumers we should stand up and shout. Sharing information with other consumers is a big part of what makes the market work at all, and complaining to corporate actually seems to get things done.
As a side note, I might be more understanding if they had ever once stood by their Pricematch Guarantee. So far 2 out of 2 Pricematching attempts have been a complete waste of my time, as they simply didn't want to do it.
- Chris
The ______ Agenda
Just $30 to have someone install firmware without any risk to me if they brick it, not mess up my warantee, , create my user account. THink about it $30 is a smoking deal. I don't know what your hourly rate is but I'd pay that i a snap. Even if you were an expert at this and could do it in a flash it's still not worth my time. You must be retarded or earn minimum wage if you think they are ripping people off.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Really this is just another bump on the road that leads to the crumbling of brick & mortar stores. Best Buy is trying to squeeze as much cash out of their customers as they possibly can.
A couple days ago I went in to my local Best Buy to buy a hard drive that they had listed for $129.99 on their website. I got to the store, and it was $165 on the shelf. In the past, it's been no problem to price match things that were on their site. However, this policy has apparently changed in the last few weeks, as they informed me that they no longer match prices on their site. The tag on the shelf wasn't one of the standard corporate tags, (the font was different, and the background of the tag was different) so it looks like they purposely jacked the prices of some items up. Anyway, I proceeded to stand in front of their customer service desk and order the drive off of their website with my phone using the "pick up at store" option. As I walked around for 15 minutes while I waited for the order to "go through" I noticed a lot of tags that were similar to the one I described. When comparing them to the website, all the tags had a significant markup compared to the Best Buy website. Other tags with the standard background matched the price on the website.
The girl at the customer service counter that I talked to said that this was "a new policy that went into effect a few weeks ago." She then proceeded to tell me that they did some sort of study that showed they were losing a ton of money by matching prices on their website. Personally I just see this as a huge death knell for, if not all best buys, at least my best buy.
I'm not going to say that Best Buy is a greedy opportunist. I'm not going to say that the customers are ignorant fools with too much money.
I'm just going to say that I will perform this service for $25*, with no coupon required. So if you're one of those people who need firmware upgrades for your PS3 and don't mind driving a few miles to get it done, I can help you anytime between 9am and 9pm in the South Bay Area. Look me up on craiglist!
*Additional charge of $5 for Other OS removal
In the pre-installation case? They're selling open-box hardware at premium prices? And yes, it should be considered open-box, because who knows what they did once it was opened? They could have dropped it, lost cables and manuals, swiped free software/coupons, etc. Once the manufacturer's seal is broken, you can't be 100% sure what you're getting and thus the merchandise should be discounted appropriately.
How about charging for sonething that would happen automatically without the user doing anything more than accepting the update?
I don't hate Best Buy for preying on stupid people. I hate them for thinking of it first.
OMG! How dare a money making company actually charge people money for providing a service to people who can do it for free!! /sarcasm
Is that kind of response expected by the submitter?
Seriously, for a site filled with geeks who think they are smarter than the general populace, this article FAIL on so many aspects. Just to name a few
1. Economics 101 - price is determined by supply and demand. If there are people who are willing to pay $30 for someone to do something for them, it is not a company being evil for providing said service for $30, even if it cost the company nothing. Cost does not determine the price, the cost of business only determines how much profit the company can make. If you are pissed about that, go ahead and start your own company to offer this service for free. (much in the same spirit of "write your own patch" in OSS)
2. Business has a fixed cost, in rent, in salary, in opportunity costs. So it is never really free to help people to install updates.
3. Guess what? Some people value their time at more than $30 for half-hour, and will be willing to pay $30 to someone if it will save 30mins time and headache. Not everyone is living in their mom's basement with nothing to do and no money to spend most of the day.
4. Grow up. Most "service industry" is based doing things for people that they can do for themselves, in some cases for free, and that includes a large portion of the IT industry.
5. From the comments so far, most /.er are more intelligent than the submitter.
Oliver.
I was a Blue-Shirted Best Buy tech in the '90s. I was even an in-home Technician before Best Buy bought the Geek Squad. When I got the job I was appalled that they wanted me to charge $$ to boot up a computer, get them signed in to AOL & configure the printer.
Then I started meeting the users. You know all those grandmas that IT people keep on the internet? There are a lot of Grandmas that don't have anyone to do that. All of a sudden I could see why paying me to come to their house & setup their Speakers (which was really cool in 1996) and show them how to use a CD-Rom was cash well spent.
In the modern era I suspect most 8 year olds are fine getting their firmware updated. But I've also walked a bunch of my 35 year old Artist & Writer friends get their Wiis on their WiFi, so I can easily see how if they didn't know me they would either spend the $$ or do without.
you are a troll. go kill yourself and make the world a better place!
Mum's are? Idiot who?
You are nothing,even with your 50 Slashdot usernames. I have good Karma, and virtually unlimited mod points because I contribute useful content. you have nothing. you are nothing. you contribute nothing.
Now Go Away! Idiot
The problem with this is that the other stores look at the pile of money BB is making and start doing it to. The legitimate ones lose value as a non-competing dog in the eyes of the stock market and you know what happens after that.
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
Sony provides firmware for free, not firmware installation. Your words wrongly intimate that they are the same. Even more absurdly, you intimate that Best Buy should pay for the labor of installing people's firmware.
Since "it's" "free" why don't YOU install people's firmware without receiving compensation.
Absurd. Just absurd.
Can no one here remember that PS3 firmware update about 12 months ago that bricked peoples consoles, and the fix was either send it to sony or pull the drive and format it?
If I'd paid bestbuy to upgrade my firmware and it broke my ps3, I would full expect to be leaving the store with a brand new ps3, and possibly some sort of compensation for my lost savegames / DLC (certainly the DLC, which has an actually monetary value attached to it) I'm not saying that it's a good idea, or even a valuable service, but how many people on slashdot have never been given a few sheets of paper for doing something as simple as a ram upgrade, or an OS reinstall (you know, on them nice netbooks with the recovery partition you can access by holding down a few keys during boot) People are prepared to pay for piece of mind, and other people are able to provide it.
it seems a little weird that people would "GO TO SOMEONE" to get it done given how often it happens (the fw upgrade that is).
But from a services perspective, 30$ seems cheap to me?
I kinda feel a small rage from the perspective that someone out there owns a ps3 and ended up going "im going to go to best buy to upgrade the firmware on my ps3". It just doesnt sound believable. Maybe the first time it happens people do it? but seriously as an on-going thing it sounds hard to believe and you have to assume they have friends (who might even have a ps3 themselves) you'd assume someone would eventually go "seriously, you dont need to do that". What gets me though is how they find out it needs to be done? i mean my ps3 jumps and says "hey, here's a fw update, wanna install it?" and you click yes.
Mind you, go back not too long ago and in order to get firmware upgraded on many devices it was "go see the maker/service person" (nokia phone for example). So its not too hard to believe that people may still have that attitude in general.
However, if you READ THE ARTICLE, it seems like engadget are playing pretty fast and loose with facts here. In my world the ps3 goes for quite a decent range of prices depending on where you go, and best buy has it for $329 with the firmware update (and it says you have to buy it). So a rep said they'll do it for $29.98... whatever? is that $30 higher than average in the US? i have no idea.
But the whole article just seems kind of bitching and moaning about someone saying they'd do a firmware update for $30 for you. As someone who works in IT, it would not surprise me to have someone come up and say "can you update the software on my X" cause they just dont get how it works. They know they put a disk in here, or a cable in there and they press that button to make it go... thats all they know...
You might also add that there are a number of companies who do precisely this same thing...charge for a service that one could do themselves for free...for Linux. For instance, Redhat and IBM just to name a couple. Where's the uproar about that?
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
That's really the only thing I can thing of other than 'so what'. This is a free country and businesses can do what they want. People are free to go elsewhere if they don't like Best Buy or Best Buy's prices. I really don't even understand how or why this even made it on /.
The thing that's stupid about this is that if your PS3 NEEDS a firmware update it asks you if you want to update, you select "yes" and you're done. If they don't know how to update the system how do they know they need to update it? Are people seeing the system say "Would you like to update?" and just freaking out? "OH GOD WHAT IS THIS SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION?! MY BRAIN CAN NOT HANDLE IT! I shall drive all the way to Best Buy and have them solve this riddle for me."
Igorance is bliss I guess? What's unethical is everything.
If I bring in MY PS3 and ask them to firmware upgrade it then it's my bad for being lazy or ignorant.
If I buy a PS3 and they add on $30bucks to every PS3 and consumers who don't have ANY KNOWLEDGE of how the PS3 updates work buy it thinking it's required, then they are unethical sleezbags. It's deception designed to prey on less tech savvy consumers and they should be kicked in the nuts for doing it.
How hard is this to understand?
This is actually quite unethical.
Best Buy is selling PS3s with a tacked on charge for something the PS3s automatically do on their own (You ahve to hit the button to agree to a TOS, but it's three button presses and automated).
They are not stocking PS3s they haven't done this to, here in Austin, either. Customers get the impression Best Buy has helped them, when in reality they are being very deceptive.
If they simply were charging $30 more for a PS3 that would be one thing, as people would just shop for the best deal. But by lying to customers, in saying they are improving the PS3 in any material way over what occurs when you put in certain discs or even connect online, they are attempting to deceive customers who just don't understand this topic. We're entering the holiday season where a lot of moms and grandmas and dads and grandpas are going to want accurate information about electronics.
All the clamor is asking for is that these people know to stay away from Best Buy. Let them be informed that Best Buy is very dishonest. That's all I want.
Best Buy is targeting customers they think are high profit and trying to weed out customers who are informed. This is a corporate plan that dates a couple of years. I remember being miffed they were almost avoiding me and being very snippy when I was buying a TV, but they did that because I was informed. This strategy will turn off anyone who knows much about a PS3, but it will also identify people who are easy marks for Monster cables, protection plans, replacing DVD movies with blu-rays, a Dish subscription, an N router for an system that should be hooked up via ethernet, etc etc etc.
Best Buy already knows this will weed out people who know better than most scams, and I want it to weed out everyone else, too.
Another fantastic point.
God it makes me sick how many sleezy businesses there are out there preying on consumers.
How about charging for sonething that would happen automatically without the user doing anything more than accepting the update?
OK... so what's the ethical problem with that?
... and then they built the supercollider.
If I buy a PS3 and they add on $30bucks to every PS3 and consumers who don't have ANY KNOWLEDGE of how the PS3 updates work buy it thinking it's required, then they are unethical sleezbags. It's deception designed to prey on less tech savvy consumers and they should be kicked in the nuts for doing it.
It may be sleazy thing to do, but the ethic of a business is to make money.
Sleazy, yes, but I'm not seeing the ethical angle, unless they are somehow preventing people from shopping somewhere else or preventing them from finding the information about the update elsewhere.
... and then they built the supercollider.
What if they charge $30 more for no reason at all, and also do firmware updates? Is that better?
It's not the same idea as an oil change. Firmware updates are automated.
They are literally charging for something that no user needs any knowledge or skill to perform.
It has a resemblance to service or IT. That's how the scam works... posing as an IT service.
That some locations don't even stock the PS3s without this 'service' says quite a lot. That this is a service that takes no knowledge to perform (you don't even need to know it needs to be done!) says quite a lot.
We're talking about a fee for the sun coming up tomorrow.
but best buy is pre loading it and forcing you to buy it with work done and non pre loading ones are out of stock.
and then when you try to buy they push a $50-$80 monster HDMI cable on you.
This is so far from the truth its not even funny. I'm a Geek Squad Agent and this is not the case at all. In fact if they are the only ones left and you dont want it, you get the service for FREE. You are NEVER EVER EVER required to pay for a service you dont want. This goes for all computer services as well.
Nice job trying to jump on the "BASH BIG BUSINESS" bandwagon though.
(i dont always agree with our prices, but a lot of our services are for convenience, not because users cannot complete them themselves. This is what a business is about, providing services that people want)
The "Paying for labor" argument goes out the window, for starters -- assuming one considered it valid to begin with.
Hmm. Making money has nothing to do with ethics.
HOW you make money has to do with ethics, don't confuse the two.
This is completely unethical no matter how you slice it.
Basically they got into a room together and said "hey let's charge them to apply the automatic update."
"But it's automatic! People will complain and not buy"
"Yeah but we'll get the ones who don't know it's automatic. They'll never know!"
So grandma goes in to buy her grandkid a PS3. She thinks oh! This is an extra special PS3, they did this firmware thing to it, so my grandkid won't have to. How nice of them!
Yeah, totally ethical. Riiight.
You know, you lost me. I have no clue what kind of point you are trying to make. But I'm sure in your mind you are.
Care to elaborate on your "philosophy" here for us?
In the pre-installation case? They're selling open-box hardware at premium prices? And yes, it should be considered open-box, because who knows what they did once it was opened? They could have dropped it, lost cables and manuals, swiped free software/coupons, etc. Once the manufacturer's seal is broken, you can't be 100% sure what you're getting and thus the merchandise should be discounted appropriately.
But if the customer considers the service more worthwhile than an unopened box, then how is it unethical?
There exist markets in customized cars, motorcycles, computers, etc that take pristine equipment from the manufacturer, and then make modifications that potentially void the warranty. Often the modified items are worth far more than the same product direct from the manufacturer.
The idea that an opened box is inherently less valuable than an unopened one does not hold for all situations. Which is more valuable - a computer in a box with no OS or software installed, or the same computer than has been taken out of the box, configured, and had software installed?
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't buy an overpriced PS3 from Best Buy. I also think it's a pretty shitty thing to do. But I don't see where it violates the ethical code one would expect a company like Best Buy to have. I don't think there is much of an ethical code there to violate. It's not necessarily unethical to do shitty things.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Thank you. For fuck sakes, I'm sick of the crybabies yapping over what amounts to charging money for a service.
If you don't need the goddamned service because you're an ubergeek who compiles the Linux kernel in your spare time, then DON'T BUY THE FUCKING SERVICE. No one is holding a gun to your head.
Best Buy have increased the price of the PS3 by $30. The basic principle of comeptition is that that anyone else can choose to undercut them and see more sales or match price and gain more money per sale.
It gets worse! There's places that charge you for making dinner! That's right! There's actually people who go out to these places to have meals made FOR them! WHAT FOOLS!
Hmm. Making money has nothing to do with ethics.
Sure it does. Why would you say it doesn't?
This is completely unethical no matter how you slice it.
No, there are plenty of ways you can slice this to make it ethical. After all, ethics are arbitrary.
So grandma goes in to buy her grandkid a PS3. She thinks oh! This is an extra special PS3, they did this firmware thing to it, so my grandkid won't have to. How nice of them! Yeah, totally ethical. Riiight.
OK, but you haven't explained how it is unethical, you have just declared it so. Perhaps one has a system of ethics that says that grandma should have informed herself before buying something she didn't understand? Perhaps your system of ethics is that greed is good?
Perhaps your system of ethics is that giving a gift, where the recipient must wait for a stupid update before being able to use it, is unethical?
... and then they built the supercollider.
You've gotta love circular logic and intentionally ignoring the obvious to bolster your argument.
What it boils down to is it sensless to argue with you about this because the ethics, or lack thereof are obvious to anyone with a proper sense of right or wrong.
So if it makes you feel any better you can declare personal victory that you've successfully explained away any doubt that this type of practice is completely ok and should continue. Those of us with a sense of right or wrong, and a sense of how you create credibility and trust with customers long term, will continue along our obviously naive belief systems.
Cheerio.
Utter BS. My wife bought a Netbook at BB. Surprise surprise, they were all "pre-optimized". None that hadn't been touched were in stock, surprise surprise - but they had six pre-optimized models below the desk.
I didn't want the pre-optimization (heh, what basically amounted to 'uninstall some Windows features, remove the System Restore image, and install a trial of Norton Antivirus').
They weren't willing to compromise, even at the cost of losing the sale. They lost the sale.
Since the manufacturer seal is broken on these items, Best Buy could very easily sell a PS3 that was *returned* by a customer as new, updated PS3. Instead of charging less for a return/open box PS3, they get a premium price for one that has been "set up" already. Do you have any doubt that they would do this if they could get away with it?
Okay, since all you do is ask the same question, maybe you need to do some research on your own. I think a good place for you to start on this whole ethics idea is to research the quote "Profit alone is not sufficient reason to start a business" and see if that helps you out.
Member of American Sarcasm Society - Motto: "Like we need your help!"
Should be free, like the rest of the services the IT industry provides, just throw a few crumbs to the IT suckers once in a while, anything more and the stupid morons will go on a hunger strike. They much rather be slaves.
You probably never worked in the IT industry catering to the consumer. I used to work as an onsite computer tech and our customers would gladly pay a few so that we would do the "complicated computer stuff" for them. One guy payed me $95/hr to come out to his house every few weeks just to install Windows updates. He watched me every time and knew how to do it but he still did not want to do it himself.
BestBuy is providing a service which some consumers appreciate. If you are not one of them then shop somewhere else.
Everyone who buys Wild Hunt will receive 16 specially prepared DLCs absolutely for free, regardless of platform.
I dont mean "stupidity tax" either.
Consider how many people (accountants) and institutions exist solely for the purpose of doing other people income tax paper work. its a massive industry. We're all very very capable of doing our own tax, yet alot of us dont. Why? well for example, i used to do my own tax, then i married an accountant and she does it. She takes 30 minutes and gets it right first time. I take 4 hours and get it wrong. From a sheer opportunity cost perspective, its worth it to have someone who knows what they're doing do your tax (i get 4 extra hours to play COD). then theres the whole "get it wrong and you go to jail" thing im not overly fond of either. Sure, if i get a ps3 firmware wrong im not going to jail but for an end-user who really doesn't get anything more then "put disk in here, press this button" its a load off someones mind. Compared to a tax accountant, $30 is a cheap load of someones mind too.
The reality is, i cant imagine best buy get a huge demand for the service, but who knows really? But the kind of people who go for this kind of thing are also the kind of people who often used to click on those links that say they're from their bank and they need to login to confirm their details.
my point is that as nerds (as the vast majority of us here are), the thought of someone doing something as simple as a ps3 firmware update is for us may be mind boggling. Yet if you spoke to my wife, she doesn't understand why half the people she used to do income tax for paid her to do it cause it was just so simple to her.
Best Buy is selling PS3s with a tacked on charge for something the PS3s automatically do on their own (You ahve to hit the button to agree to a TOS, but it's three button presses and automated).
That's not strictly true - you have to configure your PS3 to connect to your network. Then you have to ensure your network is connected to the Internet. This might involve plugging in network cables or setting up wireless network keys. Some people don't have the Internet at home. Sure, you can get the updates on disk or USB stick but there's probably a charge for that too.
There are conceivably a few consumers out there who do not have the means to get the automatic updates and a few games out there that require the latest firmware at their time of pressing.
I drink to make other people interesting!
I think you also have the opportunity to buy a PS3 at bestbuy which isn't updated for the regular price.. Otherwise I would also suggest going to another retailer, there are more then enough who are willing to sell it to you for less..
It may be sleazy thing to do, but the ethic of a business is to make money.
Sleazy, yes, but I'm not seeing the ethical angle, unless they are somehow preventing people from shopping somewhere else or preventing them from finding the information about the update elsewhere.
I think you are mixing up capitalism with ethics.
Hmm. Making money has nothing to do with ethics.
Sure it does. Why would you say it doesn't?
Only in the obtuse way that you could say that everything has something to do with ethics (should you be working for charity instead of reading Slashdot now,,,,,).
I'm not trolling or trying to be snarky, but I think you are confusing ethics and morals.
RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
thats a great idea! until other retailers.... start doing the same thing customers stop asking questions and just pay for it.
But that could be stopped by...
1. A competing console manufacturer not allowing retailers to do this (by tehnical measures or the underhand pressure they've been known to use to make retailers move their way in the past)
2. Said competitor makes a "thing" of relative pricing
3. Sony also force the retailers to stop, as they don't want to be the one that looks more expensive because of the BestBuy tax
That the system would do that automatically if you just connect it to the internet?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Making money is not the ethic, it's the goal. Ethics are the rules you apply while going for your goal.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Games that need a newer firmware install that firmware automatically. I'm not sure newer firmware adds anything that you can benefit from without having an online connection anyway.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Also some vendors do charge extra for new firmware revisions so customers might think Sony is one of those and the 30$ charge is for that. Without knowing the PS3 specifically customers cannot tell they are being ripped off.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
The "Paying for labor" argument goes out the window, for starters
Why? Did it not take labor to install the firmware? And who would argue against paying for labor, except those who are pro-slavery?
... and then they built the supercollider.
They weren't willing to compromise, even at the cost of losing the sale. They lost the sale.
Their business model is dying because they can not compete directly with online retailers (who don't have shop rents and other expenses from physical points of sale to pay for) without making a bit extra somewhere. They can't simply get away with just inflating the prices anymore because even the lower end of the general public is getting smart to the idea of buying online if there is a saving (or if the price is exactly the same but the retail outlets are some drive away so getting items delivered is more convenient). So shops like BestBuy are trying to be seen to add value in the eyes of the consumer in order to inflate the prices above those offered by businesses with lower cost bases without the customer walking away.
Margins on these things are very very small these days because of this competition - so they'd rather no have the the few $ from you at the expense of the opportunity cost of getting $30+few from the next guy. Presumably this makes sense to them on average even though they lost a sale in your case. Also in the case you describe, when there are no inflated versions of the product available, they had the choice of giving you the "extra" free (they wouldn't want to set that precedent), doing some work to remove the extra (more time cost to them) or saying "sorry, none in stock, but we do have this version".
Physical retail establishments for low/medium-price consumer items is a dying business model, only physical stores that offer specialist goods/services (such as personal customisation or local based tech support), that sell something you would generally want to physically see before paying for, or that sell perishables that you'd prefer not get delayed in the post, or that sell items that still command a high mark-up (non-mass-produced fashion items and so forth) will survive (and even some of them look shaky outside the short term) and BestBuy and their ilk are trying to push themselves into one of those categories before it is too late. I don't think it is going to work, but they aren't going to die without trying.
You've gotta love circular logic and intentionally ignoring the obvious to bolster your argument.
What it boils down to is it sensless to argue with you about this because the ethics, or lack thereof are obvious to anyone with a proper sense of right or wrong.
That's hilarious! You talk about circular logic, and then make your argument with the ultimate statement of circular logic - "I know what's right and wrong." Do you understand anything at all about ethics or philosophy? Ethics is meaningless unless you construct your ethical framework first. Simply declaring something right or wrong is outside the realm of ethics.
For example: "Abortion is unethical because anyone with a proper sense of right and wrong knows that abortion is wrong." Do you agree or disagree with that statement? How about "A woman should have the right to have an abortion, because anyone with a proper sense of right and wrong knows that a woman has the right to choose." Any better?
So if it makes you feel any better you can declare personal victory that you've successfully explained away any doubt that this type of practice is completely ok and should continue.
I never said anything of the kind. Personally, I think this practice is scummy and should not continue. But that's not an argument of ethics.
Those of us with a sense of right or wrong, and a sense of how you create credibility and trust with customers long term, will continue along our obviously naive belief systems.
More hilarity! Obviously, someone who has a different perspective on things than you has "no sense of right and wrong" and is naive. Personally, I think your interpretation of things is much more naive.
... and then they built the supercollider.
"A fool and his money are soon parted" isn't really all that different from "an old lady and her purse are soon parted". Preying on the weak is preying on the weak, whether their weakness is one of mind or body.
However, because crushing those weaker than yourself beneath your feet to use as stepping stones to power is the essence of capitalism in general and the oh-so-trendy neo-liberalism in particular, I doubt you'll hear many condemnations against it.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Having worked for various electronics manufacturers over the years I can assure you that just because something is in a box does not mean it's "pristine".
Only in the obtuse way that you could say that everything has something to do with ethics
How is that obtuse? Ethics is indeed related to everything we do. Why would making money (a major force in our civilization) be exempt from ethical considerations? To ignore it would be absurd. In fact, our major political and social structures are heavily centered on money.
... and then they built the supercollider.
I think you are mixing up capitalism with ethics.
Capitalism is an ethic, or a system of ethics, just as Communism or Libertarianism are. Why would you think it is not?
... and then they built the supercollider.
It's not a crime to make money. God, when I worked for that company they would charge people for Windows Update + Antivirus to the tune of about a hundred dollars.
Making money is not the ethic, it's the goal. Ethics are the rules you apply while going for your goal.
It's both. Businesses in America exist within the ethical framework of Capitalism, and one of the guiding principles is making money (the creation of capital). Of course, there are co-existing frameworks here, such as Democracy, but ultimately in our society, making money is considered one of the most important ideas.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Games that need a newer firmware install that firmware automatically.
No, they don't. On the PS3, they give you an error, and then tell you to use the System Update function, which requires you to either connect to the internet, or have the update on some kind of physical media. The game disc doesn't contain the firmware update.
... and then they built the supercollider.
That the system would do that automatically if you just connect it to the internet?
It's unethical that the system would do it automatically? That doesn't make much sense.
More importantly, it's not even true, because you have to go to the System Update control and press buttons and stuff. It doesn't just happen automatically.
... and then they built the supercollider.
However, because crushing those weaker than yourself beneath your feet to use as stepping stones to power is the essence of capitalism in general and the oh-so-trendy neo-liberalism in particular,
So, paying $30 extra for an expensive luxury item is "crushing those weaker than yourself"? Nice to see you have a sense of proportion there.
Also, I doubt that the minimum wage guy at Best Buy is on the stepping stones to power. He probably has a bleaker future than the nice old lady who can afford to buy a PS3.
... and then they built the supercollider.
start doing the same thing
customers stop asking questions and just pay for it.
Ah, you mean like a bank?
So I should pay for the card which I can only have on an account giving me 0% interest and then put my money in a stock fund with 1.5% yearly fee for _NOT_ beating any reasonable stock index?
Great idea!
In Norway (I'm Swedish) you usually even have to _PAY_ for a bank account :D, weird things happen when everyone got too much money :D
Also here in Sweden all bank personal is called "personal advisers", not "personal sellers", because of course they want to give you the best product! Never mind it's what's best for them ;)
Nope, I don't.
When companies have shareholders breathing down their necks, they'll do anything really.
Insulating shareholders from the non-monetary aspects of the business they have a slice of does wonders for blinding their ethical and moral senses. All they have the privilege of seeing up close is the figures on the dividend check. They'll often never even know what their business is up to.
And when those shareholders happen to be an inter-owned web of collectively self-owning corporations, well, you have a feedback loop of greed. Consider corporations A, B, and C that each own one half of the two others. There's no place for the dividends to go except as bonuses to the top execs, and this lucrative arrangement will probably mean that barring anti-trust actions (which can be held at bay with "campaign contributions"), things will stay just as they are.
In all fairness, as much as I hate Best Buy, they do offer some "cheaper" HDMI cables now from what I've seen. $30 for the Dynex 6', $40 for the Monster one.
I feel slightly bad for people who are duped into buying these cables, but OTOH they should be doing their homework before buying things they don't know about. Walmart offers HDMI cables for as cheap as $10 for 6 foot ones. A simple Google search for HDMI cable pricing would lead you to sites like Monoprice et al that charge under $5 for a basic HDMI cable, etc. And this isn't anything new. Printer cables and adapters have been marked up for years -- they are the largest profit maker for retailers.
(In the mid-90s I worked for CompUSA and their 6' printer cables were $35 when the cost in the system said $3. Of course the margin on selling the printer itself was like $3-10...)
No, charging extra for an expensive luxury item is exploiting the stupidity of people. The only reason it's considered ethical is because neo-liberalism has spent decades advocating crushing those weaker than yourself as the pinnacle of ethics.
Now did I express myself clearly enough?
So? Did that minimum wage employee decide on this charge? If not, then what relevance does your comment have?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
No, charging extra for an expensive luxury item is exploiting the stupidity of people. The only reason it's considered ethical is because neo-liberalism has spent decades advocating crushing those weaker than yourself as the pinnacle of ethics.
Now did I express myself clearly enough?
Not really. Why is it you believe that "neo-liberalism" is doing this? It seems pretty straightforwardly Capitalistic or Libertarian to me.
Anyway, why is the onus on the seller of goods to protect the "stupid people," as you put it, from their own stupidity? Do these customers not have other vendors to buy the goods from? I don't see where any "crushing" comes into it. How is someone crushed by paying $30 more for a product? Perhaps their time is so valuable that it's actually rational to pay $30 to save 20 minutes doing a system update?
Your idea that people need to be protected from their own decisions sounds decidedly neo-liberal to me.
So? Did that minimum wage employee decide on this charge? If not, then what relevance does your comment have?
About as much relevance as yours do to reality.
... and then they built the supercollider.
I don't think you know what the word "ethic" means. An Ethic is a value system which guides your judgement on the morality of actions.
Capitalism is an economic system where private entities are the primary participants in economic activity, not governments, and the movement of money ("capital") is paramount. Capitalism does not enable you to make judgements about right and wrong. Communism is a political philosophy extending the economic principles of Socialism to an extreme.
Libertarianism is about the closest you get to an ethic - Libertarians judge everything in the context of whether it affords or enables personal freedom or not. Capitalism is perhaps most closely aligned to Libertarianism, but a system of ethics it is not - perhaps you're referring to ethos?
There is no situation where the firmware update is needed, that it won't be automatically applied. If you try to play a newer game on a system that never had the internet, the game will automatically install the firmware update. If you simply connect it to the internet, it will do the update.
If you don't do either of those things, you have no reason to want to update.
If BestBuy charged additional labor for a guy to run a lap around the outside of the store, it would be of approximately equal value. But since the guy ran the lap, he did do labor, so it's a valid labor charge?
This is not the funny you're looking for.
I don't think you know what the word "ethic" means. An Ethic is a value system which guides your judgement on the morality of actions.
And that's exactly what Capitalism and all the other isms do. I think you might be the one who doesn't understand.
Capitalism is an economic system where private entities are the primary participants in economic activity, not governments, and the movement of money ("capital") is paramount.
And the very idea of "economics" is an idea borne of ethics, so therefore so is capitalism.
Capitalism does not enable you to make judgements about right and wrong.
How so? Capitalism enshrines the ownership of resources and participation in economic activity (as you put it yourself). How is that not a judgement about right and wrong? If I were to declare that private ownership of resources was not valid, then wouldn't a Capitalist declare that position to be wrong?
... and then they built the supercollider.
How is that obtuse? Ethics is indeed related to everything we do.
So it becomes a default, only worth mentioning if there is some special significance. Just like walking is often involved in things so you don't say "I went to the shop and this involved walking from my car to the store, then walking in the store". You would only mention it when there is some significance like "you have to walk to the cafe and it's a mile from the nearest car-park".
You misspelled "sleazebags."
Or better yet -- the few times I've had to go to Best Buy to buy something (trust me, I avoid them like the plauge), and they pull this crap, I go to their website while in the store, and order it there. The website dosen't know about the "Geek Squad Markups", and will charge me the normal amount. I can even check the box to do an in-store pickup.
The manager usually gets real pissed at me when he knows I know there are no untouched boxes, and I'm getting their GeekSquad service for free. I usually explain that I'd rather not have it.
So it becomes a default, only worth mentioning if there is some special significance.
Well, yeah. That's basically what I'm arguing. It was another poster who mentioned the ethical angle. I was basically pointing out that it's not especially relevant in this case. Businesses try to make money. Best Buy used this gimmick in an effort to make money. There's nothing illegal going on, and nobody is really being harmed - so why should there be an outrage over the ethics of it?
... and then they built the supercollider.
There is no situation where the firmware update is needed, that it won't be automatically applied.
That is absolutely not true. There is actually no situation where the firmware is automatically installed. You need to go to System Update, agree to the EULA, etc, before an update is installed. And you need to be connected to the internet or have a local copy of the update to be able to do this.
If you simply connect it to the internet, it will do the update.
No. I own a PS3, and it has never updated itself automatically when connected to the internet. It has always required user interaction to initiate and authorize the update.
... and then they built the supercollider.
They do this on everything, not just PS3. I had to run out and buy a new DirectTV receiver a couple of years ago and went to Best Buy. I grabbed the receiver off the shelf and went to pay. The cashier then told me I couldn't buy it without having them install it. I explained to them that I have had DirectTV installed for 10 years, including upgrading the dish. The install and all upgrades had been done by me and changing a few cables for a receiver is a cake walk. They insisted it was the policy of DirectTV. Finally I went to a different retailer, got the unit and paid for it with no problem. I contacted DirectTV the next day to ask them about this "policy" and they said there is no such thing. Morale of the story - when Best Buy tells you that you have to do something or they don't have what you want, just leave. There's already a well documented history of Best Buy doing this kind of crap and they seem intent on keeping it up.
That's great, but the issue here is how Best Buy is going about it. They aren't just providing a service. The image that was posed looked like it was made with the intent of ripping people off.
The customer you had clearly KNEW that he could install updates by himself. You think any parent buying the PS3 for their child for this holiday season is going to know these things? They are going to see signs like that and think, "Oh I should probably get it updated while I'm here anyway!".
Other than that, if someone wants to pay for free software to be installed, so be it. Just don't trick people into it. It should be clearly noted that the Firmware update is free itself. Or, if the customer asks how to install it themselves they should be provided the information.
This is the scene I see when I hear stories like this:
When I was about nine, my parents took me with them to visit friends.
Their friends had a son my age and little girl, about 5 years old, who was quite simply an ill-behaved brat.
Her brother and I caught her in the kitchen eating a bowl of chocolate frosting.
So, we (the slightly older, and no less ill-behaved brats) smugly trotted her over to our folks.
Little sister stood there, smeared from head to foot in chocolate frosting and denied everything.
Her mom gave her a bath and changed her clothes then made a new batch of frosting.
Our parents could have given a shit about her brother's and my "helpful" revelation of his sister's activities.
Looking back on it, I can see they were pretty fed up with EVERYONE involved.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Sorry, I read both articles, I'm not seeing where they force you to buy the PS3s that had the Geek Squad updated firmware. They might trick people that don't know anything about it, but not seeing the forcing part.
It took about as much labor as the bag boy at the grocery store pushing my cart out to my car, and I only tip him 3 or 4 bucks... Hell, hes happy getting 3 bucks. Most people only tip them a dollar.
This isnt geek squad going to the house and setting the wireless up, and updating the firmware, and setting the parental controls. This is geek squad opening a box, mashing 5 min worth of buttons, repacking the box, and charging 30 bucks.
Then they no longer have PS3s that havnt been "improved" by Best Buy. You have to pony up an extra 30 dollars if you wish to purchase one there. So when the little grandmother walks into the store to pick up her grandsons toy, she gets bent over the barrel for 30 dollars by the lies and misdirection that Best Buy always propogates
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
you mean to tell me that there are people who value their time at more than $30 per 10 seconds? I wonder how many seconds it costs them to take their PS3 from home to BestBuy and back?
In the US you tip someone to bring a cart to your car? Wow, to me this completely redefines the word laziness :D
I'd like to applaud Best Buy for modeling their business after a car dealership. Enough of this customer-is-always-right BS. The customer is the enemy. The goal of a store is to take as much money from each customer as possible and it's up to the responsible consumer to try to pay as little as possible. That's just textbook capitalism. 6th Ave. electronics. figured this out eons ago. That's why I shop at Amazon...oh wait.
I had this happen to me too. They pretty much refused to sell "we have 2 copies" to "we can't find anymore copies" when I refused their pre-optimized bullshit. Went to another store to buy the same thing. Their business model seems to be sell to gullible customers or refuse the sale.
did you forget to take your meds?
The crappy thing is Best Buy preloads these things before they hit the SHELVES! Sometimes you just don't have a choice. They do this with EVERYTHING with the Geek Squad.
When we were looking for a laptop for my wife, they had a bunch of stuff that already had Trend Antivirus and other stuff pre-installed and you could NOT avoid paying the extra fee if they didn't have any of the ones with out the stuff on it installed.
I understand charging labor, but 30 dollars is a bit much considering what they pay Geek Squad techs.
Gorkman
A comment that starts out "hey retards" and ends with "eat that" is modded insightful, rather than the "flamebait" it deserves? From an AC no less? WTF is slashdot coming to? Yes, the $30 is for labor and I'm sure that's discussed in less inflammatory terms later in the comments, and what's worse a comment further down that discusses it like adults rather than a twelve year old AC hurling insults is probably modded "redundant".
PLEASE, slashdot, bring back the old metamoderation system so bad moderators don't get more mod points.
Free Martian Whores!
Firmware updates come out all the time and they are, as the parent noted, easy to apply. Your console will pester you, you click ok, things go on. You aren't going to bring it back in to the shop every time you need a new one.
There's also the matter about how they sell it, how they pretend it makes your system more stable and so on. Technically true, perhaps, but they are trying to deliberately mislead people that by not getting this you are in trouble.
I take my car in for oil changes not because I can't do it myself, but because I don't want to. The shop I take it to doesn't try pretend like it is a special service only they can do. In fact if I want a special kind of oil or filter, I can bring my own and they'll not charge me for that part (I bring a filter since my car is uncommon and they don't stock them).
To me it would be like them trying to charge me to fuel my car, something an end user is expected to do themselves on a regular basis, and imply it was special.
There is nothing wrong with service industries and nothing wrong with paying people to help you. However some things were just designed to be real easy for end users to do, like fueling a car. Firmware updates are one of those. The console makers specifically plan on releasing new firmware often, and having it upgraded in the home. As such the process is extremely easy and automated.
They could have dropped it, lost cables and manuals, swiped free software/coupons, etc.
I haven't bought anything from BB for years, but they used to be really bad about that. I don't know how they stay in business.
Free Martian Whores!
Hay guys, wuts an instruction manual?
I used to work for the neurology department. I was, literally, working for brain surgeons. Smart, smart people. They did high end research, in addition to surgery, they all held joint positions at the hospital and university. However only one of them knew anything more than basics about computers. They rest just didn't care. Computers were a tool to get their job done, that was all. They didn't learn about them because they didn't want or need to, that's what they paid me for. Also because of this they did whatever I said, easy bunch of people to work with. I'd say "You need X," and the answer was "Buy it." I told them "With the new system do things this way," and they all did. They were used to the idea that in medicine, when an expert tells you what it to be done, you do it. I was the computer expert, in that small domain my word was law.
None of them were stupid by any stretch of the imagination, just very, very focused. They did what they did well, and relied on others to do what they did well.
I do think too many computer people decide that anyone without computer skills is an "idiot" as though we should all have the same skill set. Can't deal with a command line? Can't compile a program from source? Can't write your own scripts? Oh you are a moron. EVERYONE should do that... Of course the person saying that is often unable to cook even a simple meal from base ingredients for themselves, or explain the basics of colour matching and so on. They've decided that their field is the important one, and everything else is irrelevant.
I did this long ago; I will not give Best Buy any business whatsoever.
You can't jailbreak your PS3 if you upgrade beyond 3.41.
You'd be surprised by how often cords are found laying around the setup tables or behind them from people forgetting to include them in the boxes after doing the startup stuff for computers (they bitch if we don't do about 60 computers in 2 hours, so it's a lot of juggling to get them packed/unpacked between installing garbage on them). Don't think I've ever seen presetups being done on anything but computers at our store though.
What kind of IDIOT doesn't have internet access?
Don't think I've ever seen anyone tip someone for bringing a cart out here on the west coast. May just be that guy :P
they charge assembly fees on grills, bikes, mowers, etc. and generally don't offer them in the box. As they told me when I asked, "most people don't want to put them together themselves".
They are in business to make money, and if 95%+ "want it now", then it seems the rest of us just have to deal.
You have to pony up an extra 30 dollars if you wish to purchase one there.
So really, instead of complaining about Best Buy's practices, we should be complaining about people too ignorant to walk out the door and buy somewhere else. Come on people, this isn't that hard. If you don't like it, don't buy it. You act like BB is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy the altered consoles. They AREN'T. It's just a matter of you being too lazy to go somewhere else.
Staples Business Depot here sells pre-configured routers at $15 over retail. They're pre-configured for local ISPs with big stickers on the outside to show which ones. If you use ISPA, and don't want to configure your router, just purchase a pre-configured ISPA router and bring it home.
This is equivalent to not changing your own oil. Just because its easy or simple doesn't mean its not worth paying someone else to do it for some people.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
I've seen this done with PCs. Someone returns it for some reason, we just plug it in and make sure it boots up, then restore it, install the antivirus/updates/run the magic CD, package it up and put it on the floor with the same restore CDs we used to reset it so we can charge the extra 90 or whatever startup/restore CDs cost.
Starting is 10.77 in California. Lot better than the 8 dollar minimum wage :p
Are they actually filling the shelves with them? I have never seen any of these at the BestBuy's I've been to (granted, this is in Canada). I've also bought a PS3 fairly recently (from BestBuy).
but best buy is pre loading it and forcing you to buy it with work done and non pre loading ones are out of stock.
Um, citation, please? I've never seen an open box PS3 sold at either of the two Best Buy's near me. How do you "pre-load" something if the box isn't opened?
and then when you try to buy they push a $50-$80 monster HDMI cable on you.
That's called capitalism. I buy my HDMI cables on amazon.com for $3 a piece. If I needed one in 5 minutes, I'd pay $50 for one at Best Buy.
There is nothing unethical about making money by providing a service that people are WILLINGLY paying for, even when there are more apparently rational options available.
This is not a cellular provider or a cable company...you have options.
Tell them no and stick to it. Also *BE NICE*. These dudes are making min wage or slightly more. If you come in with an attitude, do you think they are going to be inclined to help *AT ALL*. No.
'Would you like our service agreement' 'No thank you' and smile with a Sullivan nod. Trust me you do not need to explain why you dont want it. If they get argumentative then 'I have home owners insurance that covers this sort of thing, so no'
'Would you like an HDMI cable' 'No thank you' and smile with a Sullivan nod. Trust me you do not need to explain why you dont want it. If they get argumentative then 'I have 10 from blue jean cables already, so no'.
'Would you like our black tie service' 'No thank you' and smile with a Sullivan nod. Trust me you do not need to explain why you dont want it. If they get argumentative then 'I work with computers day in and out I think I can handle it, so no'
They do not care. It is the same thing as 'do you want fries with that'. The are required to ask. They are also required to sell x number per week or loose their job. All they care is did they make their quota and you are getting out of their hair quickly.
If the item is not in stock. Ask for the manager and a rain check. If they insist on being brats about it order it online with your smart phone if you have one, or walk out then order it online from home and show up and pick it up (they have in store free pickup). *THEN* ask to see the manager again and ask why he was being a brat. Also there is a phone number on every ticket to say 'how did your purchase go' 'it went horrible'. Too many of those and managers start loosing jobs...
Every step of the way *BE NICE*. Going in with a 'I know better than all these douches' attitude gets you crappy service.
Sounds like your store is an exception then. Ours won't give anything away for free, even when the customer gets pissed and starts yelling.
Ok, so I misread the article. It isn't exactly written well enough on a quick read to be clear that they are opening the PS3 updating the firmware then selling it. I thought they were charging you $30 to update your PS3, not one they were selling off the shelf.
Still, you are are extra dumb to buy that. And Best Buy would be extra dumb to purposefully not have any new-unopened ones for sale.
If people shop around for the best price--as they should if they have any sense at all--they'll notice the $30 surcharge from Best Buy and take their business elsewhere. I doubt Grandma is going to understand why she's paying 30 extra bucks for that PS3, so she may just as well go somewhere they're selling it cheaper.
Check out my world simulator thingy.
Otherwise if you don't want to pay, learn how to do it yourself.
(no i dont work for Best Buy, or even live in a country where they exist)
I have only experienced this phenomenon at military base commissaries. I have never had groceries wheeled out to my car by someone else at a private sector store.
Check out my world simulator thingy.
I don't do this myself, but it could be a useful service for someone who is old or disabled or any number of other things preventing them from loading their groceries into their car.
I don't know about the firmware in question, but a computer shop that charged a fee to ensure that Windows/AV is up to date before I took it home would be okay in my mind. I'd think $10-20 would be more reasonable (it depends a bit on how large/long the update is). A 10% surcharge does seem excessive but 5% wouldn't be unreasonable.
I really don't see the problem.
These guys do not work for free! This is similar to re-installing Windows: anyone can do it. I don't care if you don't know jack about PCs, you can read the directions with your PC and restore the custom-built image from the manufacturer. You are also capable of installing an update on a consumer device. These things are not rocket science! ...and by the way, it is the consumer's fault for buying a device that they don't control: where they are a slave to the manufacturer. "You don't want to install that new firmware update? No new games for you! Thanks, we got your money and have a nice day!"
Best Buy is perfectly within reason to charge for this. Time is money!
Sincerely: someone who has 0 affiliation with Best Buy.
That's what disclosure is for. Now people will read about this and the other stores will see this as a poor option. There's always a choice. You don't have to buy from Best Buy. If enough people complain and refuse to buy their PS3 from Best Buy, this policy will stop. That's the answer.
Was at a Buy More the other week looking at laptops. Heard the salesman give his spiel to some other unwitting victim about how they should pay them $100 to bring all the software up to date on a PC that hasn't even left the store. Basically, they wanted to charge them $100 to run Windows Update. Bend over and say you like it.
Ya and often those modified items are worth a lot less, that's right a lot less. I'll never again buy someone's stupid modified car, I don't care if it was done "professionally". This reminds me of the fake commercial on the radio of Grand Theft Auto 4 where that muscly guy (I think his name is Brucie) talks about his car modification shop wehre he says they take super cars designed by world-class engineers and modify them to make them worth a lot less. Tha'ts right, a lot less.
Similarly, I was paid a few occasions $50/hour to list items on eBay. I tried to show the guy how to do it the first time, he just didn't care enough and would rather pay me.
The comments being made here are absolutely silly -- the development of civilization has proceeded hand in hand with specialization and differentiation in roles. If you visit Slashdot, you almost certainly have a greater aptitude and affinity for technology than most segments of society, but this is not generally true of the common person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
I see people defending BB and I see people say they are ripping them off.
Look at it this way.
Sony has put out a few firmware updates that have bricked machines.
If Best Buy does the update and bricks your machine, guess what? Your getting a new machine.
So, while most of use wouldn't bother, you can see it as insurance.
Be seeing you...
The ignorance is normal. People have been punished for making mistakes so many times before on computers, so it probably extends to their consoles. More and more technologically illiterate people are getting game systems for their children and grandchildren, it's sometimes considered beneficial if the system is all patched ahead of time. The time it takes to patch one of these new systems is pretty long, and you have to know which options to put in. That stuff scares some people.
Best Buy is in business to make profit. Would you rather that company start asking for handouts from the government instead of their customers? Come on! They need the extra profit for ... something.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
"Then you were not working with idiots. I've worked with IDIOTS. I'm talking about people who freak out if their desktop icons get rearranged. I'm talking about people who submit helpdesk tickets... I expect... I expect..."
The guy who wrote the post you replied to made the point beautifully, and you didn't get.
"Sadly, most people I've come across are incapable of these simplest things."
There are three options here. #1 - You're working in a special needs facility. #2 - You're looking at the world through horribly jaded eyes and actually believe that. #3 - That's a straight up lie.
If Best Buy is upgrading every new PS3 they have in stock, article is showing it as an instore purchase add on not a bring in for service, then this is crap. It is not like they're pre-install special laptop optimization, which was proven to be slower at the start of the service, were you can have them restore the laptop and remove the charge. Once the update is done, there is really no going back, because they are doing it as a labor charge, not applications that can be removed and not charged .
If they are offering PS3s with the option of no update applied, then you have choice of what to buy and they are providing a service OPTION, which if people want to pay is legit.
If they are going to start forcing people to only buy items that are upgraded before buying and pay for the unrequested service then hopefully people will get informed on this bad business practice and stop buying from them. Keep friends and family informed to not buy these forced services and help make a point to stores that it is unacceptable to force this on people that do not need the service.
Why would anyone purchase at Best Buy unless they were the last place to buy? I myself do purchase from there from time to time, mainly order online and just pickup so I can avoid the sales idiots they have employed but I would never purchase anything like a PS3 from them, media only. The company is a horror show and just tries anything they can to screw over the customer, remember the issue with pricing if you used one of the in-store computers that they got caught doing? Anyway, if you are dumb enough to pay them $30, to bad for you. I would rather wait 6-8 weeks to get a PS3 than give them a dime. They is just another step in their continued efforts to scam customers.
Unethical how?
I feel bad when I charge a boatload of money when I do IT or electrical work when its is such and easy thing for me or the job is as simple as running Spybot or flipping a breaker. Its so easy, cost me nothing, so why should I charge for it?
But my wife has drilled it into my head that, "Either they don't know how and they're relying on your huge investment in time and money during years of training, or they do know how and they're just lazy and taking advantage of your generous nature. Either way, you charge 'em."
If its so easy and cost the gamer nothing, what are they doing taking their system to Best Buy? If they're just lazy, charge 'em $30 for using Best Buy's labor pool to do it work they should be doing themselves. If they don't know how, charge 'em $30 to reimburse Best Buy for the investment they've made in hiring trained professionals. (And no, I didn't manage to type that last bit with a straight face.)
I think it's great that they offer this service. And I wouldn't expect them to do it for free. However, I really think they should let people know that doing it yourself at home is possible and free. Chances are they're already doing so, and people still want to pay for this service, which is fair enough.
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
The primary reason that I think it would be unethical is that it is being sold as a service primarily (exclusively?) to people who are buying a new PS3. Most of those customers probably don't know that the update is available for free and is very painless to install. If that is not made clear to the customer at the time of purchase then it could be considered deceptive advertising or maybe even fraudulent service.
If they are being clear about this being an entirely optional service and that you can download and install updates for free, there may be some value in the service because there are still some people who don't have internet, don't want to connect a game console to their internet connection, or don't know how to do that.
The central question is how they are promoting the service. Which, in all fairness, may depend more on the manager at each Best Buy than corporate policy.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
You'd think that from a legal standpoint, Best Buy accepting the EULA of the update on behalf of the customer without the updated text being available directly to the final customer would be an issue. Doesn't Sony only honor the warranty for the original owner? Doesn't Best Buy become that original owner if they take it out of the box and accept legal agreements?
Many of them ONLY carry the modified ones in-stock.
I used to work at a grocery store and for extremely large orders or where customers might need assistance we did carry outs. It wasn't the norm though, and I rarely got tipped (like maybe it happened once or twice in a year).
Oh SCHWING! nice!
Amazon, target, and www.sonystyle.com and newegg all sell PS3s. When did amazon or newegg start offering setup? or for that mater sony directly?
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
I mostly like microcenter for that. The boxes are the shipping boxes... inside that is te consumer box, and the whole lot is still sealed from the factory. Simply pick up a cheep DIY computer part before heading to the laptop section, and you get help with no sales pitch at all.
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
But the quality of that $60 cable is so much better.
But nothing can compare to $2,000+ http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=musical-instruments&qid=1286467188&sr=8-1
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this because you are a Geek Squad Agent and not a sales associate. I don't believe the Best Buy sales force are seeing the same memos that you are. A coworker went into Best Buy over the Summer to help a relative buy a laptop. When she refused the crapware uninstallation service the sales rep challenged her on on the sales floor, demanding to know where she got her IT certificates and insisted that she had to be certified to remove software. They left without buying that day. The entire consumer electronics/computer sales force is full of technical ignoramuses and charlatans. But Best Buy's sales force seems to be worse then most. I'm sure there are some decent sales associates out there, and even some stores that look for knowledgeable sales staff, but the good apples are few and far between.
I, for one, would NEVER pay Best Buy $30 to update my firmware.
However, I'd most definitely part with $30 to get it done by the Nerd Herd over at the Buy More.
You need to go and get a refund for Econ 101. Becuase clearly you didn't understand it.
1. What you're suggesting is that just because you can commit fraud and somebody is willing to pay for it there's justification. Clearly not otherwise we wouldn't have laws against fraud. These are PS3s which are preupgraded, not at the insistence of the customer.
2. It is free, it is quite literally clicking one button, you're quite literally spending more of the customers money trying to get paid than doing the service. Back when quality service meant something, a store would frequently be willing to do the one click just to have positive word of mount. Fair exchange really.
3. So, they value their time at more than $60/hour so they drive down the Bestbuy to save them less than a minute before the install routine does everything else for them? I'm sorry but that's moronic at best.
4. No, the IT industry is there so that people don't have to spend large amounts of time learning how to do everything for themselves. There's no reason why most people need to know how to go in and fix the Windows registry, install a new component or fix a broken install. It's more efficient to pay a specialist to do it.
5. Only because you're completely wrong on every one of your other points.
Doesn't Best Buy become that original owner if they take it out of the box and accept legal agreements?
Possibly, or some similarly inconvenient part of the relevant agreements would cause confusion. This is probably how Sony would put a stop to such services should they wish to, but unless the service is harming sales or the products reputation (which could be as little as people thinking it is more expensive from all sources, not just from BB) there is little reason for Sony to care.
RTFM!
Just yesterday I was in Best Buy and they offered a service to open the package for me. Given the tools I'd otherwise need, it was worth it.
How do you think that you can simultaneously describe something as both "sleazy" and "ethical"? It kind of casts into doubt your entire argument throughout this thread; sleazy is basically, by definition, unethical.
And with the number of different models available and constantly changing prices of PS3 hardware, it's entirely possible that someone wouldn't really know what they were being charged for, or assume that they were getting a premium SKU.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
It is unethical because NOBODY who understands the "service" they provide would choose to pay them for it. The ONLY people who will fall for it are those that don't know any better.
If you argue that this is ok; fine. That means you also think that just about any scam that takes advantage of people not knowing any better is ok, as long as it provides *some* sort of a "service," no matter how loosely that "service" is defined.
Understand?
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
I don't like Best Buy but a service is a service.
I'll update your PS3 for only $20 if you pay postage or bring it to me. ;)
Yes they do. My brother in law doesnt have his PS3 connected to the internet, and gets his updates from the games that require them.
Thanks for the assumption, but I'm sure you've never even had this situation happen, and are just guessing by what you see on your screen when you buy a new game.
Staples Business Depot here sells pre-configured routers at $15 over retail.
That doesn't make any sense. Most routers are pre-configured, as much as they can be, with the factory defaults, and as far as possible, routers configure themselves when plugged in. Further configuration would have to be done with knowledge of the specifics of the network setup, or at least after the router has been connected.
For users who simply want to connect a wi-fi router to their cable modem, there's no pre-configuration that can be done. For something more complicated that the user doesn't know how to handle, or doesn't want to, you'd need to send out a technician, and that would cost more than $15, even at minimum wage.
OK.
But I think it is appropriate that people who are knowledgeable about tech feel BestBuy is taking advantage of people. Just like you did being payed 95 an hour to install something that can be completely automated.
Just because someone is willing to pay doesn't make it ethical.
If we were talking about the medical field, would it be more clear? For example, a doctor prescribing unnecessary treatments just because "the patient was willing to pay". In this case, the doctor's consent affirms the patients (wrong) thinking that they need X procedure.
BestBuy, and You, have the right to make money in any legal way you see fit of course, but....
"BestBuy is providing a service which some consumers appreciate. If you are not one of them then shop somewhere else."
How appreciative would the consumers be if they found out that everything they bought was unneeded and that they were led along and basically 'tricked' into wasting money, where the trick in question is not being decent enough to just explain to them how to do it, or provide a pamphlet explaining it, etc..
I know in the computer world it isn't always as cut and dry as I make it seem: some people are 100% unwilling to try even the most basic tasks....but when the task in question is literally as basic as the skills required to use the device itself....a honest tech person shouldn't try to sell them that task.
I'm not arguing with you, but why in hell would you pick a PS3 as a standalone DVD player? You can get one that's just as functional - more, really - for 50 bucks.
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
I don't work for free. Do YOU?
It's unethical if you look at it from a disclosure standpoint.
http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u46173/best-buy-firmware_thumb.jpg
That's the pitch. Broken down it says "Our $30 service will make lots of improvements to your PS3."
What it doesn't tell you is that those improvements will be made anyway, the first time you hook the PS3 up to the network.
It's like charging someone for making the sun set at night. It's going to happen whether you pay me for it or not, so if I imply that you have to pay me to make it happen, it's unethical.
And then when you add in Best Buy's usual practice of being magically "out of stock" of the non-altered PS3's, it's doubly unethical because they're advertising PS3's at one price and then trying to force you to pay $30 more once you get to the store.
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
Making money doesn't automatically make what you are doing ethical.
1. If a doctor advertised a service "free aura alignments", and people were willing to pay, and he made a lot of profit on it, fine. Customer is happy, doctor is happy, but other doctors (in the Best Buy case, other 'tech' people) should appropriately frown upon that practice.
2. Sure, but some things take such little time that providing them free might actually increase sales. If the reputation of the store spreads around town and customers are saying, "Go to best buy, you buy something from them and they do all this stuff for free...". This is exactly the same as getting some gas for your car and the attendant washes your windows while you wait for the tank to fill. Adding value to the customer experience without incurring any real business cost.
3. See above.
4. This would be true if the task in question was something that people can't do themselves. The skills required to even use the device are the same skills required to update the firmware. If the client can't update the firmware, it is doubtful they will even be able to play a game:)
How does Walmart stay in business?
Best Buy is the Walmart of electronics.
They started out by being cheaper than any other big box electronics store. That's why CompUSA and Circuit City aren't around anymore. They're obviously going to be cheaper than the mom and pop store because they can buy in bulk and therefore reduce costs. Plus, the mom and pop store tends to hire employees who know what they're talking about. Best Buy hires people who think Pentium is a dirty magazine.
People in Western cultures tend to shop for the lowest price. Even if it means you have to go into a crap store with crap employees who dispense crap advice, by god you saved $15 on that plasma and you'll go back next time to save another measly amount. (interestingly, Japanese consumers tend to be the opposite. If you charge less for an item, they view it as lower quality and are less likely to want to buy it)
Best Buy had the lowest prices for years, and now that they have pretty much zero brick and mortar competition, they can start tacking on bullshit like this to make more money.
Not that they haven't always done so - when I worked for them back in high school the store manager used to try to get me to sell extended warranties on ram by telling customers to buy it because "you know if one of the bearings breaks, the ram's done and you'll have to buy a new one without the warranty." Such practices were common throughout the network of stores in my town. So deceptive business practices have been par for the course for these guys for decades. They prey on the gullible and attract the savvy with the low prices.
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
I'd say it would be in the best interest of Sony to contact Best Buy and tell them they're required to keep x percentage of the PS3 systems factory sealed. I used to work for Geek Squad, and I hated how they made us do this to people. It's literally saying "We just provided you with services without asking if you wanted them first." If anything, Sony should be angry at Best Buy for cock blocking potential sales of their systems - I can't tell you how many people walked away when we told them there weren't any "untouched" systems in stock.
You clearly don't understand the mind of the gamer. Any time a gamer has to pay for something, it's unethical.
Simple, isn't it? If you still don't understand, I can't help you any further.
This is surely one thing I point out to anyone buying anything, certainly electronic. If the tape on the box is not smooth and is clearly not the factory seal then do not buy it no matter what BS the salesman hands you. Heard it all before.
Bought 2 Infinity speakers from Circuit City years ago and realized that, after seeing cracks in the speaker covers, that the tape job was sloppy and bunched together. Ended up having to take it to another location 10 miles farther away after the first location had nothing but opened boxes only to have the other location tell me the ones I had were listed as "in service" and should have been sent back to the factory.
That experience has me checking for evidence of a box being opened ever since. Have told salesmen to get me another many times and if they say it's the last, I say I can go elsewhere. Most times you'd be surprised how they "find" another that hasn't been opened before. Can't understand why they do this as they can send it back to the manufacturer and not have to pay for the device. Just trying to get away on the cheap because of shipping maybe?
but best buy is pre loading it and forcing you to buy it with work done and non pre loading ones are out of stock.
and then when you try to buy they push a $50-$80 monster HDMI cable on you.
Then your complaint is not that they are charging for pre-installing updates, but instead that they have a tendency to preemptively do this for all their stock and "force" clients into the service by not having any un-serviced units up for sale.
If that's your real complaint, then you should complain about that, not about the service being provided for a fee.
How is this any different from a garage charging you $35 to change your oil? If you know how to change your car's oil, you'd know any fool could do it.
But billions of car-owners pay for this service all the time. Maybe even yourself. Think about that before you paint Best Buy as a bad guy for charging for a service which may seem ridiculous to you. Any and every service business in this world is based on this principle.
For the same reason you can't go down the street trimming hedges, then leave a note on each door that says "You never heard of me, but you owe me $300 for trimming your hedges".
I'm ignoring the second part of your comment, hoping for your sake that it was sarcasm.
Except this is Best Buy. You can bet the $30 idiot-surcharge won't be shown in the Sunday circular.
Well, I've some of your replies on this and your arguments.
First, there is a non-trivial class of people who pay this "fee" and do not need the service. And Best Buy's corporate strategy is to make money off of these people. This is harm.
You then respond with some form of "Well that's the ethics of Capitalism".
I do not think that word means what you think it does. /s
Ethical systems are hierarchical. Sorry to disappoint. There are classes that are commutable, having equal hierarchy such as the abortion topic. These seem to be of the same scale.
However, an ethical system such as "making money is the Highest Good" (as you portray Capitalism), is inferior to either of the above! No one has a right to harm me to make money. Period.
Regards.
Ignorant, gullible people are paying for shit they don't need. Film at 11.
I don't think so. But you know, they are not the only folks charging setup fees in Canada. Future Shop has had the "let us install this for you" stickers on not just hard drives but usb sticks as well. I recently bought a laptop from them, and they were really pushing the setup fees, which on my laptop ran about $300 (about 30% of the original price of the computer).
I know they are owned by the same folks, but even Office Depot is jumping into the game.
And while I'm starting to get upset, lets talk about the extra warranties they push on everything. If I pay $30 for a crummy keyboard, I really don't need a warranty. I heard rumors that the Sales People at these places get a commission on every warranty they sell. Can anyone confirm this?
My guess is, as margins have shrunk, they have had to create other ways of generating money. Some people will say that it's worth it, tech savvy people generally won't. Sometimes, I think a line is crossed, and many customers will never realize it.
In the pre-installation case? They're selling open-box hardware at premium prices? And yes, it should be considered open-box, because who knows what they did once it was opened? They could have dropped it, lost cables and manuals, swiped free software/coupons, etc. Once the manufacturer's seal is broken, you can't be 100% sure what you're getting and thus the merchandise should be discounted appropriately.
Try telling that to Gamestop. There's no guarantee that one of the schmoes working there didn't take the game home for a few nights to 'try it out'. My favorite is when the gut the PC games, but leave the manuals, complete with serial numbers, on the sales floor, giving someone with a camera a free, legit license to use Game X.
2. It is free, it is quite literally clicking one button, you're quite literally spending more of the customers money trying to get paid than doing the service. Back when quality service meant something, a store would frequently be willing to do the one click just to have positive word of mount. Fair exchange really.
Back in the 80s, my video store used to charge a dollar (or maybe it was $2) for not rewinding. It's free at home, takes 1 second to hit the button, and so therefore was fraud?
I thought it's been well established people are more than capable of "Next, next, next."
This is not the funny you're looking for.