Slashdot Mirror
First Pictures of Chinese Stealth Fighter
Frosty Piss writes "The first clear pictures of what appears to be a Chinese stealth fighter prototype have been published online. The photographs, published on several unofficial Chinese and foreign defense-related websites, appear to show a J-20 prototype making a high-speed taxi test — usually one of the last steps before an aircraft makes its first flight — according to experts on aviation and China's military. Several experts said the prototype's body appeared to borrow from the F-22 and other US stealth aircraft. The US cut funding for the F-22 in 2009 in favor of the F-35, a smaller, cheaper stealth fighter that made its first test flight in 2006 and is expected to be fully deployed by around 2014."
Pictures of a stealth fighter.
If I can get pictures of it, is it really all that stealthy?
Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
Hmmm, I guess we should start taking Chinese espionage seriously?
Looks like the YF23... This is the start of Cold War II..
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
The article says it would be a contender for the F-22, and calls it the world's only fully operational stealth fighter. Why don't the f-117 or even the f-35's count?
The USA puts a lot of resources into maintaining air superiority.
Can we finally admit this is a cold war?
I'd be more interested to see what china is doing with drones. Especially since they are so cheap compared to a manned aircraft, they can pull higher G's and the pilots don't have to especially worry about dieing.
On the other hand we have BAE working on adaptive jammers and whatnot that seem like they would be suspiciously well suited to jam UAV communications relying on radio.
FTA: The Chinese prototype looks like it has "the potential to be a competitor with the F-22 and to be decisively superior to the F-35," said Mr. Fisher. The J-20 has two engines, like the F-22, and is about the same size, while the F-35 is smaller and has only one engine.
So... more engines and bigger equals "decisively superior," based solely on some photos?
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
Remember, Ufimtsev's work formed the basis for stealth technology.
Yours At Lockheed,
Kilgore T.
At first glance, that looks exceedingly like an F-22 (I'm no expert-maybe specialists here can point out differences). I wonder what the odds are that this- like so many Chinese knockoffs- was designed with extensive engineering details about its competitors, gained in a clandestine manner?
The u.s. is like the decline of Rome. Most of the budget spent on the military to little gain.
When will we realize we need to spend those billions on educating new engineers and scientists,
repair our education system and bring industry back home? Do we value having $1.00 stores so much
we will slit our own throats to save 0.50 cents on plastic goods? China's power is there is no individual, there
is only the state. Need a new bridge? Seize houses. New factory? Take land. We need to realize what we are
up against and adjust our outdated ideals about business. There is no more free market, there is the chinese
way, of the western way where people and property are respected and protected. We need to set up protective
measures to protect what is left of our industry.
How do these fly if they are made of lead?
here's a thought, why dont both countries STOP producing them?
Anyone else think China's progress on this is a result of stolen intellectual property?
Powered by a sand cast copy of a 1972 Honda mini-bike engine.
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
So will this be a new toy with which to violate Japanese airspace, and have the Japanese in a tizzy? Then Japan could waste more resources on buying F-22's and fancy radars, which will benefit US but leave the Japanese fuming that they are paying the price for the standoff between two powers.
Air combat has been pretty much dominated by missiles because of radar and heat locked missiles. If the missiles can't lock in, will that mean the return of the dogfight with dumb bullets instead of missiles?
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Next time there's a rally in Tiananmen Square, the world won't see an iconic image of a protester standing in front of a row of tanks. The protester will instead be standing in front a stealth fighter jet, but the stealth fighter jet will be invisible to cameras, making the photo uninteresting.
wat?
I mean, I understand you're trolling; but come on at least troll relevantly.
Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
Realistically it looks like a morph of the eurofighter and a F22 or possibly the YF-23. I'm curious how the hell they made the canards all that stealthy, perhaps it is multimodal in that respect, stealth mode and dogfight mode or something like that. The article is also off comparing it to the F22, the main advantage of the F-22 is all aspect stealth, which this doesn't look to have, and also very advanced avionics and battle management systems, which is something impossible to tell about this aircraft from the pictures. As it stands the Chinese have had real problems with jet engine technology, having only badly copied soviet era engines in the past, and that not so well... So I don't think the US has alot to worry about.
They are cool and all, but we're better off spending our money on cheaper projects with a higher military payoff.
This country tends to spend its military R&D on the most useless and expensive projects with low payoff. We've spent billions on the missile defense shield which doesn't protect us from any modern threat. We've also spend tens of billions on the Osprey, which is pork at its finest.
A manned stealth fighter doesn't really help us much these days. We're far better off investing in drones which even if they're not stealth can win because we can just send a bunch more of them.
If you recall, Lockheed-Martin sold the hard drive with the F-22 blueprints to the Iranians. Allegedly by mistake. The odds of the other air powers NOT producing F-22-style designs was virtually zero.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It appears as though the priorities are shifting towards airplanes that are cheaper & more suitable for asymmetrical fighting: http://www.economist.com/node/17079443.
I saw these Chinese pictures 30 minutes ago and now I'm already hungry for more!
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
It is Shanzai Raptor ,inside it is a JF-17 Thundarr Bundaarr(Monkey) .It is a perfect hybrid of american-russian 3rd generation phighter with the latest shanzai technology.
FTA: The Chinese prototype looks like it has "the potential to be a competitor with the F-22 and to be decisively superior to the F-35," said Mr. Fisher. The J-20 has two engines, like the F-22, and is about the same size, while the F-35 is smaller and has only one engine. So... more engines and bigger equals "decisively superior," based solely on some photos?
I think F16 pilots would offer a different opinion.
It's not a perfect analogy but think of the F22 as an F15 replacement (bigger, multiengine family) and the F35 as an F16 replacement (smaller, single engine family). It gets a little more complicated when you consider the F35 is also to be used by the US Navy and Marine Corp, not just the US Air Force, sort of like the F4. And of corse the British Royal Navy is heavily involved too..
I went by Walmart but they didn't have any in stock.
F-22's because no one has advanced enough........stealth...............fighters....oh well never mind
I ready that as "How do these fly if they are made of bread?"
It has been at least 50 years since heat-seeking missiles were invented. They can hunt down a fighter with far more accuracy than a human pilot can, they can withstand much higher accelerations, they are much cheaper than a manned fighter plane.
Why do they insist on manned fighter aircraft?
I thought the F-22 was built in China. Everything else is.
Heh, we're not only funding our own military, we're funding theirs too, indirectly.
Proverbs 21:19
Their attempt at a stealth fighter amuses me.
They should stick with building cheaper fighters en masse rather than building expensive stealth fighter aircraft that aren't really that stealthy against modern networked radar systems. At least the first way they could simply overwhelm air defenses with numbers, rather than relying on a gimmick to get within striking range of anything important. I suspect this is mainly just a show of force and won't be much of a real threat even when deployed. Kind of like how our current F-22 is more of a show of force, since we haven't fought a competent air force in a while.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
In the financially strapped 1960s/70s the Soviet Mig 25 Foxbat appeared and it's rumored capabilities saved the US F14 and F15 projects from significant budget cutbacks or cancellation. Perhaps the savior of the F22 and F35 projects has arrived.
I think F16 pilots would offer a different opinion.
I doubt any F-16 pilot who is honest with himself (does such a beast exist?) would actually claim that the Falcon is superior to the Eagle, Raptor, Hornet, or even Tomcat. You would have to go back a full generation of fighters to find a twin-engined aircraft that the F-16 can best (I'm thinking F-4 Phantom). In fighters, two engines is indeed a major advantage over one.
... to validate a combat-worthy modern fighter.
A nation that puts plastic in its baby food to fake protein levels has quality control issues that will fail a phony fighter at fifty thousand feet. Remember the failure of the counterfeit aerospace bolts it ships to the west.
You can't overcome the demanding laws of physics by proclamation, family privilege, or deceit. Consequently, China's reverse-engineered Russian fighter engines don't match up. (And Russia has refused to sell them it's F22 class power plants because they're tired of getting ripped off. )
Don't even get me started on mastering the voodoo of stealth...
In short, we'll see what they have when it's super-cruising at altitude with working combat systems: Not when its taxi-ing at seal level.
"Knowing everything doesn't help..."
The top picture does not match the bottom one. The shape of the engine air ducts shown on the top picture does not show up on the bottom one. The top picture looks like a processed image of F-22. The bottom one is missing the engines.
Don't say "Chinks". It's rude.
I would argue that two engines makes for a superior plane since they can at least fly back on one, have better acceleration, outperform single engine planes in a myriad of ways, etc, etc, but hey what do I know? I just stayed at a Holiday Inn.
A single engine fighter is very counter to the historical navy philosophy that all carrier based planes have two engines for redundancy as well. I'm guessing its because bailing out over water hundreds of miles from your carrier, when you could have limped back home can make for quite a miserable experience.
I would take an F-15C over any F-16 any day of the week. The F-35 is in no way comparable to the F-22, and it looks like they are going for something that can compete with the F-22.
zosxavius photography
http://www.mychinanet.com/bbs/subject.aspx?topic=27120&board=1&type=0&mtopic=27120
I think F16 pilots would offer a different opinion.
Until they realize this thing is always either behind them or disappearing into the sun...
If they try and use it, as soon as it's out of sight, they'll claim the warranty has expired, and if you're willing to wait 3-6 months, they'll mail a a replacement via untrackable ground shipping.
My knee-jerk reaction was, "Well shit, that looks a lot like someone else's stealth fighter! Chinese, ripping off everything from a pack of chewing gum to a stealth fighter."
But then I reminded myself that when two people are trying to achieve the same scientific goal their solution will likely be very similar, even if the two people have never met. This has been proven many times over throughout time and around the globe. When two people are trying to achieve the same opinion based goal their solutions are often wildly different.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
In a country that censors the least criticism from it's internet, that blacks out media while it suppresses a border nation, and sanitizes its news to the point of near irrelevance, are we to believe that "enthusiasts" were permitted to photograph a developing military fighter?
Chinese police happily confiscate cameras and imprison people photographing far more benign items (say, a square where nothing at all took place) than advanced weaponry. An airbase where an advanced aircraft was being tested would likely be ringed with surveillance ready to pounce on any gawkers. Of course that is unlikely too ... frankly, in what universe would China be testing a new military aircraft so openly? Surely there are secret, isolated airbases in the country that would be perfect for the task.
When the plane flies at an international airshow, then it will be real. Otherwise, well, think about it.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
So, when can we expect to see these at the local Walmart?
That thing looks more like a bomber than a fighter, it is very long and large. The intakes are extremely... tall. There are a few spots that look decidedly unstealthy and would not deflect radar at all.
Are they looking at different photos than what were published? The side-view photo certainly doesn't appear to be a high-speed test. Hard to tell with all the grain, but I would expect some blurring of the background and/or jet exhaust if it was traveling at high speed, but you see neither in those two photos. For all I can tell it could be a mockup sitting still on the tarmac. Not to say the Chinese haven't conducted high-speed tests of it, I just disagree with the claim that these photos show any evidence of it.
Other Photos seem to have the same issues - that might be some heat waving in the Guardian photo, but tough to tell.
Claiming that this could be a prototype fighter that challenges the F-22 based on these photos is just ridiculous, and one would think a writer for Jane's would know better. It is quite possible, as China has really made no secret of the fact that they are pursuing aviation technology very aggressively (and I do seem to recall reports of large portions of engineering data for the F-22 being stolen a while back. My mistake - apparently it was the F-35), and no doubt they are working on bringing their high-tech fabrication technology up to speed. But there is a very big jump between putting together a stealthy-looking mockup (all that can really be determined from the photos) and producing an effective combat system, from airframe to FCS to weapons systems and avionics. Like I said, I don't doubt that this is their goal, and I don't doubt that they will be fully capable of it within a relatively short time, but a couple of photos really doesn't prove (or even really suggest) much of anything.
It seems to be me the future of aerial warfare is UAVs. Why risk trained pilots that probably costed millions to train when you can have them pilot UAVs that are cheaper and can do basically the same?
How about that the MiG-17 was generally considered a superior aircraft to the F-4 with a vastly inferior weapons platform? The Vietnamese aces all flew 17s rather than 21s and Yeager thought the 17 could have been a more potent plane than the F-4 when he flew one. The 17, of course, was a single engine plane that even relied pretty heavily on vacuum tubes in the electronics systems.
Of course there are few USAF pilots who don't think their shit doesn't stink, and I'm sure C-130 pilots think their stuff is awesome. However, the 16 is many years newer, and there are many who would not want anything to do with the 15, 18 and absolutely no one wants a 14 for anything these days. Everyone wants 22s.
But probably not for the reasons you think... It has very little to do with technical merits of each plane. The people who fly and work on the aircraft don't memorize and compare numbers--only young males not in the service do it. Your mission dictates your aircraft and some missions are more important these days than others. Getting 22s means you are really important. Not getting a new block of 16s, then attempting to switch to 15s means that you are afraid of BRAC.
over our generation and what has it gotten us? Oh yeah, under performing teachers who can rarely be fired who get great pensions and benefits and nearly triple the number of non teaching positions with similar benefits. Seems the only ones who have not made out are the students.
Yes, the US spends far too much on its military. The US however does not spend too much on education, it spends too much disguised as education but which is nothing more than jobs and vote buying programs. When schools systems threaten to lay off teachers unless taxes are raised yet built hundred million dollar schools its obvious to you and me their priorities are skewed. When they spend more money fighting school choice than offering students the choice itself something is wrong. When the money follows the school and not the child there is no incentive for the system to fix itself. When ever attempt to do standardized testing is met with cries of racism there is no chance for success. When you have a society which rewards failure why would you expect less?
The free market is fine and good, however you have to change the mentality of many Americans now who have a culture of entitlement. Where working for a living for many is a foreign idea. Where you can get endless government assistance nearly unqualified. As in, you just pop out some kids because how dare someone make you earn money or ask you to try, after all you would not want to starve children would you? When we give money and assistance to people who will not work buy have cell phones, cable bills, car payments, and buy liquor and cigarettes it points to a cultural problem.
We created a group of Americans who are see nothing in wrong in having others pay their way, where we give them a thousand excuses to play the victim instead of trying to improve them. Politicians need victims, they create them through targeted entitlement programs. So we have all these people who won't go anywhere because society has enabled them not to.
Education is one major key, we already have sufficient money, we have to fix this culture where failure is acceptable or excusable.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
So we know they are bad pilots.
When do you think we'll see one of those at iwantoneofthose.com ?
A nation that puts plastic in its baby food to fake protein levels
If you hold an entire nation accountable for the actions of a few individuals (who are currently in jail), then I have quite a few US citizens to point out to you.
"nation" was too broad a word. On the other hand, not quite meeting specs to increase profits is pretty widespread... More widespread, maybe, than in the US or EU.
And back to the topic at hand: Modern stealth fighters have very tight specifications.
"Knowing everything doesn't help..."
Given the amount the US owes to China, I am reminded of the Ankh-Morpork anthem, which goes, in part:
Let others boast of martial dash
For we have boldly fought with cash
We own all your helmets, we own all your shoes.
We own all your generals - touch us and you'll lose
See also this version
I think F16 pilots would offer a different opinion.
Until they realize this thing is always either behind them or disappearing into the sun...
The F15 is an incredible aircraft but the advantages with respect to technical specs are sometimes countered by the reduced visibility (eyeball and radar) and greater agility of the F16. F16s have regularly taken out F15s during exercises and that is with F16 pilots who spend a greater portion of their time training for air-to-ground rather than air-to-air compared to their F15 counterparts.
Keep in mind that the F16 was originally designed by highly experienced aerial combat veterans, one of which *literally* wrote the book on air-to-air combat for the US Air Force. Many of these pilots were concerned that big multi-mission expensive fighters like the F15 could be vulnerable to smaller more maneuverable inexpensive fighters. So they went off to design something that had everything they thought a pure fighter needed and nothing else(*).
The F15 has a flawless combat record, zero losses to enemy aircraft, because of the superior training F15 pilots have had compared to their Mig and Mirage driving opponents. It was the pilot not the aircraft that determined victory. In training exercises where opposing pilots have comparable training the F15s are vulnerable to contemporaries such as the F16.
(*) To be fair today's F16s have moved from this a bit and have increased their complexity to support air-to-ground roles.
Rumor has it the canopy from the Chinese fighter will fit an F22 without modification but ranks lower in crash safety tests.
I've chosen my words carefully but you should have done the same. THIS... IS... SLASHDOT
P.S. Captcha challenge: outburst
"And Russia has refused to sell them it's F22 class power plants because they're tired of getting ripped off."
I guess the laws of English are a bit easier to overcome. it's means it is, BTW.
I'm apostatic about apostrophes...
"Knowing everything doesn't help..."
The Chinese Stealth Fighter looks like a clone of the Northrop YF-23 prototype which went head to head (and lost) against the F-22.
Designed by Lockheed Martin in California.
Assembled in China.
One advantage of the F15 is its ability to carry heavier loads - which means more big missiles on a CAP mission.
Maneuverability only matters in a close-in fight. If you spot your target 50 miles out, then missile performance and launch altitude/speed probably matter a lot more than aircraft maneuverability. The F15's radar is better I think also, but that probably doesn't matter when you have AWACS as the F16 radar is fine unless you're really just searching. Once missiles are fired unless the defending aircraft runs from the edge of range they are very likely to be hit.
Stealth is obviously a REALLY big thing as well, since it means you can engage before you are detected (which helps the F22 - not so much the F15). If your target's first warning that something is wrong is an AAMRAM going active they're going to be in a very painful position - especially if the launcher lobbed a few of them off the rails since it can carry so many of them. Then again, I don't know if the F22 can stealthy command guidance on an AAMRAM, or if it needs to do conventional illumination of the target, which of course gives it a chance to run (probably not much chance to fire back in time).
For the most part modern fighters are just missile launch platforms. I suspect that a 747 loaded with 1000 missiles might very well be the best fighter you can have for many missions.
For the most part modern fighters are just missile launch platforms.
That theory once dominated the Pentagon's thought. The F4 was initially a pure missile platforms. Once theory met the reality of combat the Air Force lengthened the nose and put in a gun. Every US fighter since then has included a gun.
Those in power do take Chinese espionage and military development seriously.
Asian foreign policy thinktanks know that most everything China does and says in Asia militarily and politically are nearly for the sole purpose of gobbling up Taiwan and wielding hegemony over Asia.
High-tech businesses know that any and all incentives that they get to go to China are purely for the purpose of taking their technology and manufacturing processes, giving them to Chinese companies, and then running them out of China and competing with them on the world stage.
Business, IT, and all branches of the military know that the level of Chinese espionage -- military and commercial (the latter of which is government sanctioned, unfortunately) -- is near or at former Soviet levels. This includes everything from huge botnets, cyber warfare, and sophisticated trojans lurking in electronic gifts to exploiting American foreign exchange students to China to give you information (not kidding) to the classic sexy women greeting you after a government meeting after which you find your blackberry mysteriously gone.
The Navy knows that China is hell-bent on getting a blue water navy this decade, and that includes their newly-developed aircraft carrier-killing ballistic missile (our only defense is to blow up the launcher before they launch it) and their enormous spending on developing stealthy submarines including tons of espionage in the areas of submarine engines. They also know that the almost exclusive focus of the PLA is to shut down the capability of the US to respond to an attack in the Pacific. On a related note, I guess it's somewhat comforting that China doesn't want North America; China just wants all of Asia and it wants the US to get the hell out permanently.
Japan is fully aware that China has tens of thousands of "fishing trawlers" on reserve to harass, attack, and impede any naval attacks. China uses those fishing boats you hear in the news frequently as a sort of minuteman/militia arm of their navy. Those vessels are all-too-often crewed by the Chinese navy and perform military operations (picture of a "fishing boat" laying a mine). Because they're simply "civilian fishing boats", China will wage a gigantic press-war against anyone who dares to threaten the boats. Think of the wars in the Middle East, and how slowly things move because the enemy hides behind innocents, and you can't kill innocents just because some of them may be enemies. Being that the US and Japan are extremely close allies and share some of their most secret naval technologies, I can't imagine that the US military would not be completely aware of this.
And the air force is now aware that the Chinese air force is moving at breakneck speeds, defying almost everybody's expectations. Most people expected China to be working on one or two UAVs. Instead, this past year they unveiled no less than 52 experimental UAVs, including one that looks quite like the US predator drones. Most people expected China to be 10 to 15 years away from a 5th-gen fighter. Depending on the innards of this new fighter, they could be much closer than we thought.
Anyone involved in business, politics, or war understands that you should judge your opposition based on their actions, not their words. Chinese actions have made their intentions very clear. Just because the Chinese are/were lightyears behind in advanced technology and have unspeakably horrible looming domestic, structural, and government issues doesn't mean that they aren't home to an incredibly brilliant and thriving civilization. The US had no shortage of problems, including being technically inferior to Germany and Japan in many areas at the start of WWII, and things turned out in our favor. The only people who seem to be the ones underestimating China are the media and the internet.
Good for china!
Well if it's anything like my toy F-14 as a child, the function that makes the wings move with a remote will stop functioning and the wheels will fall off.
It too was "Made in China."
About half of the discretionary budget is spent on the military.
http://www.warresisters.org/files/FY2011piechart.pdf
The reason the United States is dying is because we aren't collecting enough taxes to pay for our infrastructure. We started two wars and then dropped taxes. That shit doesn't work.
When our way of life actually was in danger during WII, we immediately raised taxes to pay for the cost of saving our country, and those rates lasted throughout the 50s, which was one of our best economic periods in history. Our national debt dropped, and continued to do so through 1980. Then an actor named Ronald Reagan decided to hand the nation's wealth to the wealthy, and hope they wouldn't blow it all on coke and hookers and stupid investments. He was wrong. Then he passed deregulation that led to the S&L crisis, just like Clinton passed the regulation that would eventually lead to the derivatives crisis that's still boning our economy. Reagan also raised military spending but dropped taxes, and that shit didn't work back then either. Bush I and II continued the same idiot policies, and people complain that Obama hasn't fixed the economy yet. Well, when you've had some fucking frat brats with sledgehammers renting a place for the better part of 30 years, it tends to take more than 20 months to fix.
Anyway, Bush II got kicked out for doing the sensible thing and raising taxes to cover our debt. Clinton raised the top rate again to 39.6%, reduced military spending, and our national debt dropped. McCain even ran in 2000 on protecting Social Security to fulfill our promise to "the greatest generation" with the extra money we had lying around. But that sad sack of shit has sold out along with the rest of the Republican party, pandering to some illiterate backwoods fuckwits called "Evangelical Christians" who believe that Obama is a Nazi Socialist Muslim born in Kenya.
But you need a certain type of idiot to vote against their own interests and ignore common sense and hard data for thirty years running. They're the same idiots who give Jesus $5 hoping for a $10 return. They think the GOP will give them the same deal, and they don't know how fucking right they are.
I recall that when Clinton sold all that defense tech to China, it included stealth technology for aircraft. It was supposedly to help China defend itself against a hypothetical threat from Russia. Right. At least that is what was claimed...
Zerg rush! kekekekekeke
And the US is known for stealing Russian plans. Compare Yak 141 and F-35, for instance. Lockheed Martin basically created a joint venture with Russia during the early perestroika years, copied the plans and exited the joint venture.
It would appear that W was not just sending America's Manufacturing jobs to CHina, but allowed all sorts of Military secrets to go as well.
My only question is, why are ppl like Palmisano, Immelt, W, Rove, and even Cheny NOT living in China? Seriously, these ppl did more to help China than any other group of ppl INCLUDING CHINESE LEADERS!
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The fact is, that W allowed much of our military secrets to flow to CHina, along with American money and jobs. He/neo-cons passed bill after bill designed to flow jobs there. In addition, while speaking against China, he allowed large numbers to come here and work in American military R&D. We can thank Rumsfeld, Cheney, and W for that. Those idiots never served (and please do not say that W served; That is a joke).
America has been destroyed. The question is, what will the rest of the west do? WIll you be so foolish as to flow jobs to CHina as well? Australia, you have your mines, and fields being gobbled up by CHina. EU, you have your IP going there as fast as possible as well.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
This was leaked on LiveLeaks weeks ago.
A number of industrialist have stated over and over what the issues are. Do not believe it? Then fucking google for it on this site.
It is NOT that manufacturing is so expensive because of regs, or unions, or anything else. THey have stated over and over and over that it is LAWSUITS that are keeping them out. Now, the small guys can do this. But lawsuits are too damn easy in our nation. We need to re-examine that and soon.
Yet, just like you, the gd dems and neo-cons refuse to look at what these ppl are saying. Instead, they bring up their favorite topic, and IGNORE FACTS.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It has amazed me that we have spent BILLIONS and several decades on Osprey and they are just now going to Afghanistan. America has become a joke.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The pilot complains to his superior, "Look, I can't fly this thing, it's not safe."
When his supervisor asks why not, the pilot points to the aircraft's label, which reads:
"MADE IN CHINA"
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
China doesn't have the lobbying clout that, say, Northrup Grumman, Lockheed Martin, or Boeing have.
Chinese leaders have been in a cold war with the west all along. Idiots, industrialists, and flower children all want to ignore the fact that China is spying on all, has their money fixed to the dollar, dumps, and of course subsidizes, all things that are illegal per WTO/IMF and CLinton Accord.
/. supporting China.
Hell, now that America is re-doing Rare Earth, China is cutting their output drastically to the world. It is not just illegal by WTO, but it shows that China can NOT be trusted.
And yet, the industrialists will push Obama to go along, the Flower child will say to not rock the boat and that China means well, EU will say that America is causing this, and the idiots will posts here on
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Up yours, nigger!
By the time of the F4 and Vietnam, it was two generations behind and not comparable to anything modern, but it was the one aircraft the NVAF had a-plenty. When its pilots made kills, it was because they were working heavily and successfully with Chinese 19 and NVAF 21 pilots--and those pilots attained ace status much more often. It would be more analogous (probably generally inferior) to the F-86 & especially the Super Sabre, and during Vietnam it was more of a threat against aircraft on bomb runs, and of course helicopters.
The one and only feature that made it a significant threat at all against F4s was the cannon, and the fact that cannons were so stupidly left off of F4 for much of the war, and also that US pilots weren't trained in / or had little experience in dissimilar air combat. It's like trying to shoot down a Sopwith with a sidewinder; maybe they didn't generate enough heat to seek (relative to the fighters the AIM-9 was designed to counter) and if you didn't have guns to engage them, you're kind of at a disadvantage while the other pilots are hustling you.
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
Actually, China is funding your military, along with everything else in America. If the rest of the world stopped funding America, it would implode very quickly.
Good thing that using the Chinese to build EVERYTHING will not lead to any problems or security issues for us...
"It seems that we are at the age where life stops giving us things, and starts taking them away..." Indiana Jones
The question is not whether it will catch with them up eventually. The question is when will it be, and what will be the state of the westerjn world by then ? Still solid 1st world country ? Fragile 1st world country borderline 3rd world ? 3rd world completely ? That is the question which is essential to answer and to fight for. The rest is political propaganda.
Remembers a hi-tech quimera: Frontal shape from F-22, rear from Su-47 Berkut, cannards like the Su-47 ones, and vertical fins from F-35. Will blend?
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
I'd like to see some references on this please, I am genuinely interested. I was doing tiny pieces of undergraduate research in the 80s and the argument that the USSR was running out of money trying to keep up with the USA as was around then. So I am not sure that it is a 'retroactive' argument.
Also I think you take 'running out of money' too literally, my impression was that this referred in more general terms to the cold war arms race forcing the USSR economy into focussing a much higher percentage of its resources into maintaining parity with the USA, leaving less for consumer products, social development etc. Industrial capacity was focussed to too high a degree on military industries and other industries suffered. The USSR couldn't match the USA over time. My understanding of the argument is that this meant that because the USSR economy had to maintain a high war footing to keep up with US and NATO spending and developments (something like 30-35% of its industries compared to 20-25% of US industries), other areas of social development suffered and gradually standards of living etc fell behind which led to political and social dissatisfaction, hence the downfall of the system.
In this sense, the USSR 'ran out of money' - actually it had a smaller capacity than the USA/NATO aligned countries so ran itself into the ground trying to keep up.
But I'd welcome more information, I'd be happy to find out this wasn't the case. Throw over some references so I can read more, cheers!
Building a Stealth Fighter is one thing. Finding any quantity of highly skilled pilots to fly it is another.
"A few experts have suggested that the pictured aircraft is a mock-up, rather than a functioning prototype of a stealth fighter" That's it america. Keep on pretending that China is not a threat. You thought the same thing 15 years ago about their manufacturing.
You can't see it! Looking at it is forbidden!
Patently false. Defense spending right now is the highest it has been since WW2 when adjusted for inflation, and WW2 should be the high watermark in our nation's history.
Defense spending is the third largest bucket in the federal budget. OK, that's not "most" of government spending, but it is highly significant. Our percentage of global defense spending has increased from 1/3 to 1/2 in recent years, mostly because of the decline of the USSR but with that in mind our budget should be adjusting accordingly--it's not. Instead, we choose to spend 6X the defense budget of China, which by all accounts is the only major threat to our existence. Meanwhile, they are yucking it up and killing us economically. Something has got to give.
Awesome in the next independence day or aliens against the world movie we can watch this nice plane in full action! :D At least thats how eh.. I have gotten familiar with most of the other fighters..
but when aircraft do high-speed testing, occasionally they do stop moving. Like at the end of a runway? It makes for a good photo op.
Except China is no bank. Banks produce nothing. They are sustained exclusively by their patrons. Whether they eventually paid with our funny money (fiat currency) or not, the Chinese have already benefited tremendously from our spending spree. Their living standards have increased, and steadily do so. There is now greater internal demand for goods and services. They have the production capacity and technology to march steadily forward, with or without US consumers buying their products. And if our economy fails, they will be well-positioned to buy our assets for songs.
>> Several experts said the prototype's body appeared to borrow from the F-22 and other U.S. stealth aircraft.
Several experts said the prototype's body appeared to steal from the F-22 and other U.S. stealth aircraft.
There. Much better. Now it goes inline with previous discussion in Slashdot regarding Chinese high-tech.
So what your saying is that China is going to make a more expensive version of the cheap US knockoff version?
really interesting to hear from somebody who was there, thanks for the really useful info!