No Smiles At NJ Motor Vehicle Commission

Reader Presto Vivace blesses us with news that the state of New Jersey "has banned motorists from making big smiles [for their license pictures] because such expressions don't work with facial recognition software." Now that passports are by decree grim and glasses-free, I'm expecting the next phase to involve the banning of facial hair, lips, and any hair that blocks the ears.

Comments

thanks for the info

[Nyder]

going to be smiling big time when i get my next ID.

Re:thanks for the info

[RoverDaddy]

Since we're all piling on under this comment: not in Massachusetts either. And that's been true for at least 5 years now.

Re:thanks for the info

[PRMan]

Don't lie. Nobody smiles in NJ, because it's NJ...

Re:thanks for the info

[jellomizer]

Well that rule can't be too hard to enforce. I mean these people are already in New Jersey, and they are at the DMV to boot. I don't think you can get closer to hell.

Re:thanks for the info

[Immerman]

Well you can, but the Devil will require you to get a NJ drivers license before he lets you past the gates...

Re:thanks for the info

[nurb432]

Hope you like walking. They can simply refuse to issue your new ID. And if you argue, you can be taken in by the cops for causing a disturbance.

Re:thanks for the info

[K. S. Kyosuke]

NJ = No Joysey?

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

I smiled in my Mass picture just the other day. Wasn't instructed not to.

Re:thanks for the info

[moderatorrater]

Or just smile big when you're on camera. Seems like facial expression is a pretty glaring deficiency for facial recognition software.

Re:thanks for the info

[ebh]

We smile all the time, just not when you're around.

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

going to be smiling big time when i get my next ID.

In which case you WON'T be getting your next ID. :-)

Re:thanks for the info

[Larryish]

Put some foam fillers in your upper gums before the picture is taken, and squint your eyes like a Chinese sweatshop worker.

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true, people smile from New Jersy when they go to New York.

Re:thanks for the info

[BlueStrat]

going to be smiling big time when i get my next ID.

Easy fix (sort of).

Just refuse to apply for state ID or driver's licenses. If 100's of thousands or millions of drivers refuse to apply for licenses and drive anyway, are they going to shut down the streets and roads? Arrest a large proportion of the entire state's population?

Where does your state store the facial recognition data? Would Molotov cocktails in the facial data storage drive racks affect facial recognition data integrity?

I'm sick and tired of this emerging police state. You're *far* more likely to be struck by lightning or be attacked by sharks than to be killed by a terrorist attack.

The only terrorist threat that's worth US citizens worrying about is the terrorist government of the US. Yet the sheep continue to baa for more and rush to hand over ever more of their freedom, give the terrorists in government ever more power to enslave them, and fork over ever more of the people's wealth to pay for the chains.

Strat

Re:thanks for the info

[Psion]

Okay ... I'm getting up and moving to a seat a little farther away from BlueStrat.

What's that? No, no, I don't know that guy. Never saw him before in my life.

Re:thanks for the info

[shiftless]

Coward

Re:thanks for the info

[Psion]

Yooo-hooo! Mr. DHS officer? Yeah, I think this guy knows BlueStrat.

Re:thanks for the info

[SQLGuru]

Just sneeze instead. It's not a smile. Within the letter of the law.

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody smiles in NJ, because the light at the end of the tunnel is NY.

Re:thanks for the info

[CanHasDIY]

going to be smiling big time when i get my next ID.

Easy fix (sort of).

Just refuse to apply for state ID or driver's licenses.

Yup, and lose your ability to drive, vote, have access to government buildings and services...

Not being arch, just pointing out facts.

If 100's of thousands or millions of drivers refuse to apply for licenses and drive anyway, are they going to shut down the streets and roads? Arrest a large proportion of the entire state's population?

Nah, they'll just turn it into another revenue-generation mechanism and continue pounding our collective asses, just from a different angle.

I'm sick and tired of this emerging police state. You're *far* more likely to be struck by lightning or be attacked by sharks than to be killed by a terrorist attack.

Well, now, that all depends on your definition of terrorism - if we go by the dictionary, then a person actually is far more likely to be harmed by a terrorist than struck by lightning. The catch is, said terrorist will likely be wearing a government-issued uniform, and be imbued with authority by whatever fascist regime is in charge at the time.

Yet the sheep continue to baa for more and rush to hand over ever more of their freedom, give the terrorists in government ever more power to enslave them, and fork over ever more of the people's wealth to pay for the chains.

Strat

Yup, it's truly sickening. Also a good part of the reason I always want to punch anyone who pops off with "you get the government you deserve." No, motherfucker, I get stuck the government you deserve, 'cuz you (collectively speaking) are a bunch of self-centered pussies, too scared of your own shadow to stand up for yourself and your neighbors.

Re:thanks for the info

[amiga3D]

I think I'm just going to stick out my tongue at the camera.

Re:thanks for the info

[BlueStrat]

Okay ... I'm getting up and moving to a seat a little farther away from BlueStrat.

What's that? No, no, I don't know that guy. Never saw him before in my life.

Let me translate Psion's post for those who didn't quite catch the full meaning:

Baa!

HTH HAND

Strat

Re:thanks for the info

[BlueStrat]

Just refuse to apply for state ID or driver's licenses.

Yup, and lose your ability to drive, vote, have access to government buildings and services...

No, everyone drives anyway, voting is nearly meaningless anymore if all you're choosing between is (D) and (R) clones, and you learn to do without government services. What, you think securing you and your children's freedom would be easy or painless?

If 100's of thousands or millions of drivers refuse to apply for licenses and drive anyway, are they going to shut down the streets and roads? Arrest a large proportion of the entire state's population?

Nah, they'll just turn it into another revenue-generation mechanism and continue pounding our collective asses, just from a different angle.

You don't pay the fines. If the majority of people, or even a significant percentage, simply decided en-mass to ignore obtaining a driver's license, and ignored tickets/fines for doing so, do you think they'd be able to really do much about it short of following in Syria's footsteps and start lobbing bombs and artillery shells into residential neighborhoods and gunning down civilians indiscriminately in the streets?

Yet the sheep continue to baa for more and rush to hand over ever more of their freedom, give the terrorists in government ever more power to enslave them, and fork over ever more of the people's wealth to pay for the chains.

Strat

Yup, it's truly sickening. Also a good part of the reason I always want to punch anyone who pops off with "you get the government you deserve." No, motherfucker, I get stuck the government you deserve, 'cuz you (collectively speaking) are a bunch of self-centered pussies, too scared of your own shadow to stand up for yourself and your neighbors.

We certainly agree here.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the Spirit of Resistance." - Thomas Jefferson

"When people fear their government, there is tyranny. When government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

And for Psion who replied to my OP above:

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

Strat

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and thank you for holding watch on the last front of the fight to retain our liberties, upon these internet forums. It is here that the future of American freedom will be decided. If only I was so brave you would not have to go it alone.

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

Nor most of Canada, and it has to do with mostly the fact that when your ID is being inspected by an authority your not smiling.

Re:thanks for the info

[BlueStrat]

Yes, and thank you for holding watch on the last front of the fight to retain our liberties, upon these internet forums. It is here that the future of American freedom will be decided. If only I was so brave you would not have to go it alone.

What, you think all I do is post on the 'net?

Yeah, that's all I do.

Yup, that's it, you've caught me out. It's not like there are political grassroots groups I could join, political organizations I could donate to, or protests I could attend.

I'm simply not afraid to say what I think. That's one of those rapidly-disappearing constitutional rights that tens of thousands have died to protect and preserve. It's not like they died so people could actually use it or anything, right?

It's not like I'm using my First Amendment rights for something helpful and uplifting to society like calling for killing "crackas and they babies" or calling for people to "throw bombs through the windows of cracka-baby nurseries" like the upstanding citizens of the NBPP, so I probably should STFU, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVcfymOvoUo

http://www.examiner.com/article/new-black-panther-leader-kill-white-babies-by-bombing-nurseries

Sheesh! Some people's kids! :/

Strat

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

What, you think securing you and your children's freedom would be easy or painless?

Of course not, that's why I'm waiting to see YOU offer yourself to difficulty and pain first.

Instead of telling other people the "easy (sorta) fix" of not applying for a license, I'm waiting for you (or anyone) to come out and say "and that's why I tore up my license and will not be renewing (and still drive, and refuse to pay the fines, etc)"

You don't pay the fines. If the majority of people, or even a significant percentage, simply decided en-mass to ignore obtaining a driver's license, and ignored tickets/fines for doing so, do you think they'd be able to really do much about it short of following in Syria's footsteps and start lobbing bombs and artillery shells into residential neighborhoods and gunning down civilians indiscriminately in the streets?

Exactly. If people follow your "easy fix" plan, your country will follow Syria's footsteps, and I wager that many people don't wish to see your/their country turn into another Syria.

"When people fear their government, there is tyranny. When government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

And when people fear other people, there is no trust.

You seem to think that freedom is important, and that you need the majority of people to fight for it. Yet... you're too afraid to trust other people, earlier you said the"sheep" will "continue to baa".

You don't trust people to be smart enough to wake up and join you, so why would they join you? If you don't trust people, people aren't going to trust you either.

Re:thanks for the info

[CanHasDIY]

Just refuse to apply for state ID or driver's licenses.

Yup, and lose your ability to drive, vote, have access to government buildings and services...

No, everyone drives anyway, voting is nearly meaningless anymore if all you're choosing between is (D) and (R) clones, and you learn to do without government services. What, you think securing you and your children's freedom would be easy or painless?

If 100's of thousands or millions of drivers refuse to apply for licenses and drive anyway, are they going to shut down the streets and roads? Arrest a large proportion of the entire state's population?

Touche, suh.

Nah, they'll just turn it into another revenue-generation mechanism and continue pounding our collective asses, just from a different angle.

You don't pay the fines. If the majority of people, or even a significant percentage, simply decided en-mass to ignore obtaining a driver's license, and ignored tickets/fines for doing so, do you think they'd be able to really do much about it short of following in Syria's footsteps and start lobbing bombs and artillery shells into residential neighborhoods and gunning down civilians indiscriminately in the streets?

Yet the sheep continue to baa for more and rush to hand over ever more of their freedom, give the terrorists in government ever more power to enslave them, and fork over ever more of the people's wealth to pay for the chains.

Strat

Yea, but the catch is, first we have to convince a majority of the population of A) what's going on, and B) that freedom is worth fighting and sacrificing for.

Yup, it's truly sickening. Also a good part of the reason I always want to punch anyone who pops off with "you get the government you deserve." No, motherfucker, I get stuck the government you deserve, 'cuz you (collectively speaking) are a bunch of self-centered pussies, too scared of your own shadow to stand up for yourself and your neighbors.

We certainly agree here.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the Spirit of Resistance." - Thomas Jefferson

"When people fear their government, there is tyranny. When government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

And for Psion who replied to my OP above:

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

Strat

Good list, here's one you missed: "The truth is, all men having power ought to be mistrusted." - James Madison

Re:thanks for the info

[cthulhu11]

Having been stuck there for 8 months, and having required 4 visits to the MVC or DMV or whatever they called it to get my license and registration sorted out, I can attested to that.

Re:thanks for the info

[BlueStrat]

What, you think securing you and your children's freedom would be easy or painless?

Of course not, that's why I'm waiting to see YOU offer yourself to difficulty and pain first.

Instead of telling other people the "easy (sorta) fix" of not applying for a license, I'm waiting for you (or anyone) to come out and say "and that's why I tore up my license and will not be renewing (and still drive, and refuse to pay the fines, etc)"

How do you know I haven't?

The "I'm waiting for you to go first" types afraid to stick out from the herd like frightened sheep are one of the biggest reasons we find ourselves with the corrupt, crony-capitalist government we have, and why our individual rights are disappearing at an ever-increasing rate. They know sheep are too frightened to challenge them.

...do you think they'd be able to really do much about it short of following in Syria's footsteps and start lobbing bombs and artillery shells into residential neighborhoods and gunning down civilians indiscriminately in the streets?

Exactly. If people follow your "easy fix" plan, your country will follow Syria's footsteps, and I wager that many people don't wish to see your/their country turn into another Syria.

The US government is *already* on and well-down the path to becoming another Syria regardless of anything else save a miracle, with regards to suppressing the population. The longer people wait to speak out and act, the worse for the people it will be. The US Gov. has already set the groundwork for 30,000 domestic drones, have placed orders for ~750 million rounds of .40 cal hollow-point ammo (unusable by the military for war by Geneva Convention) for domestic agencies that suddenly have expanded enforcement/security capabilities and personnel. What does the NOAA need large amounts of hollow-point ammunition for? Are they planning on shooting the oceans and the atmosphere if they don't behave?

When people fear their government, there is tyranny. When government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

And when people fear other people, there is no trust.

You seem to think that freedom is important, and that you need the majority of people to fight for it. Yet... you're too afraid to trust other people, earlier you said the"sheep" will "continue to baa".

You don't trust people to be smart enough to wake up and join you, so why would they join you? If you don't trust people, people aren't going to trust you either.

People already fear other people, incited and encouraged in their fears by the government that desires a divided populace for easier control.

I have no problem trusting people that have shown that they understand the problem and demonstrate a willingness to do what it takes to secure their freedoms. I do not trust the sheep that continue to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to even acknowledge the problems or their source, a too-large, bloated, and corrupt government that has forgotten that it only survives at OUR pleasure, not theirs.

By calling sheep sheep, I hope to possibly shake a few out of their iTrance, and hopefully get them to set down the "ooo, shiny!" for a few minutes to look around at what's been happening since they went to sleep. More and more people *are* waking up.

The trouble is already on the way, one way or another, and not just in the US. The entire world is heading straight for a global collapse, and soon. It will make the US "Great Depression" of the 1930s look mild. The ones that will open their eyes, prepare, speak up, and take action are the ones that will have the best chance at surviving what's coming, and will be the ones that are left in charge when the dust settles.

I'd much rather die on my own two feet than survive on my knees before tyranny, thus betraying, making meaningless, a

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you know I haven't?

That's the thing: I DON'T know. I'm waiting for you to show me some signs, but...

The "I'm waiting for you to go first" types afraid to stick out from the herd like frightened sheep are one of the biggest reasons... ...They know sheep are too frightened to challenge them.

...I see you're challenging the sheep more than you challenge that mean old government. I'm sorry, but I'm not omniscient, I don't know what you do outside the Internet. I only have what you gave me to make judgments about you.

The US government is *already* on and well-down the path to becoming another Syria regardless of anything else

Well, more reason for people to not follow you. If we're past the point of no return, might as well have more fun today than try to prevent the inevitable.

*starts playing with the band as the Titanic sinks*

I have no problem trusting people that have shown that they understand the problem and demonstrate a willingness to do what it takes to secure their freedoms./quote>

Same here, so I'm waiting for you to demonstrate just that. Calling people "sheep" (and reacting as you have when I called you out on it) to me is not a very good sign.

By calling sheep sheep

How do you know they are sheep, whoever they are? And you hardly specified anyone. I would hardly call that efficient.

More and more people *are* waking up.

Oh, so first it's "the sheep will continue to baa", but now it's "more and more people are waking up"?

Hmm, so let's recap on what you've demonstrated so far:

-you like to challenge the sheep more than the government
-you're inefficient
-you flip flop between being the struggling underdog to a rising new tide, whichever fits your rhetoric

Maybe you're right, that the collapse is imminent, but I do think the blame is more on the lack of ability in the ones who are "awake", than the lack of ability in the "sheep"'

The ones that will open their eyes, prepare, speak up, and take action are the ones that will have the best chance at surviving what's coming, and will be the ones that are left in charge when the dust settles.

I'd much rather die on my own two feet than survive on my knees before tyranny, thus betraying, making meaningless, and rendering worthless all who came before that struggled, fought, and died, and all that they did to secure, protect, and defend freedom.

Yes, the enlightened ones will survive, the infidels will burn! I'll gladly sacrifice myself in the name of... I'm sorry but I don't live in a world of false dilemmas. I'd rather not die, AND be free. You can keep the 72 virgins

"Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything." - Alexander Hamilton.

Sure, and I stand for winning. I like winning, so I'm not going to fall for anybody who asks me to fight unless they can demonstrate to me they'll win (and I'll win along with them, instead of just being used). I mean, after all...

"The winners write the history books"

Re:thanks for the info

[BlueStrat]

I see that there's nothing I could possibly say or do that would or could convince you to step outside your comfort zone. You want to know the outcome in advance before taking any action.

That's the game plan of cowards and losers. Between cowardice, apathy, and ignorance, you and those that think as you do have doomed your selves by your own choice.

Don't worry. Go back to sleep. Others will create history and the world going forward for you.

It just may not be the kind of history you want, and it may well not include you continuing to live.

But then, who ever heard of sheep having an active part in determining what their future is like?

Baa, Mr. A. Coward, baa!

Strat

Re:thanks for the info

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone from NJ actually pronounce it that way? I've never heard it used in reality.

Smile!

[Anonymous Coward]

So smiling keeps facial recognition software from working. So all you need to do to not be recognized is smile all the time!

Re:Smile!

[Anonymous Coward]

Have they outlawed frowning yet?

Re:Smile!

[DanTheStone]

The facial recognition software isn't really to compare with your photos in public, it's primarily so that can check within the system whether you're getting licenses issued for yourself under different names.

Evidence:
http://www.publicopiniononline.com/latestnews/ci_21247064/penndot-computer-catches-fake-id-attempt
http://bismarcktribune.com/news/local/facial-recognition-software-used-by-dot/article_dd7d0f7e-dcde-11e1-a6a0-001a4bcf887a.html

Re:Smile!

[DanTheStone]

Apparently the first link is broken now, but here's some text that was there: "A man has been charged with trying to get an identification card from the Pennsylvania DOT under a name not his own. PennDOT's facial recognition computer program discovered the discrepancy. Jose Alejandro Velazquez-Rodriguez, 29, was charged with tampering with public records or information. He attempted to get a Pennsylvania identification card with the name of Steven Huerta sometime between July 16 and 27 at the DMV office in Gettysburg."

Re:Smile!

[tompaulco]

Well, who says they can use my driver's license photo to do facial recognition on? I didn't sign up for that.

Re:Smile!

[Charliemopps]

Because there's NO other way to check this right?

Re:Smile!

[Charliemopps]

Since when has the government ever needed permission to do anything? As far as their concerned we're lucking their not putting a chip in head and calling it a day.

Re:Smile!

[firex726]

Sounds like glasses free too.
What good is this SW if it only works under extremely specific circumstances?

it'd be like if they replaced background checks with a questionnaire asking "Are you a criminal?".

Re:Smile!

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd prefer fingerprinting?

Re:Smile!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like glasses free too.
What good is this SW if it only works under extremely specific circumstances?

it'd be like if they replaced background checks with a questionnaire asking "Are you a criminal?".

Yes.. I mean no... Can you repeat the question?

Re:Smile!

[Psion]

Personally, I think I'd prefer to let a few people get fake IDs now and then rather than force all of us who need ID to drive to put up with a facial recognition system. I promise you this will find more and more uses in a "post-9/11 world" where bureaucrats fall over themselves to grab more control.

Re:Smile!

[shiftless]

No, I'd prefer to live in a free country, like our Founding Fathers intended. Do you think they would have accepted ubiquitous mandatory government licensing?

Re:Smile!

[shiftless]

I bet if you refused to obey the no-smile order, then sued then when they refused to issue a license, you could force them to do so. Of course, it would cost you thousands of dollars. It's much easier to just not bother applying. Just drive. It's what probably 10% of the population does now. If you drive a mediocre plain jane car and don't drive outright reckless then you will never have to live in fear of being pulled over; it's only the red Mustangs and expensive SUVs they target.

Oh, and Welcome.....to the WORLD OF TOMORROW!!!

Re:Smile!

[The1stImmortal]

Well they do basically ask if you're a terrorist in the border entry paperwork/visa application...
(I forget the exact phrasing now, but I remember wondering if anyone who would answer yes there would be dumb enough to)

Re:Smile!

[amiga3D]

When you think of it, with things like the Boston tea party and other disruption, I'm sure all the founding father's would be branded terrorists today.

Re:Smile!

[amiga3D]

Maybe you'll like being chipped better. Best to go ahead and come to terms with the future.

Re:Smile!

[firex726]

I think there is one like that on a gun application.
Are you a criminal/terrorist, etc...

Re:Smile!

[Macgrrl]

It was explained to me that while they don't expect anyone to answer 'yes' on the form, it becomes another charge that can levy against you 'lying on your immigration paperwork'.

Re:Smile!

[PyroMosh]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that none of them drove.

Re:Smile!

[PyroMosh]

Um... use your head. You fill out forms when you get a license. Logically you would "sign up for that" when you fill out the form, or you'd just not be able to get a license.

It's possible they've overlooked it, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Re:Smile!

[tompaulco]

I got my license over 10 years ago. I know the forms that I filled out didn't allow them to use my likeness for facial recognition. And I doubt the government is smart enough to say "by signing this agreement, you agree to let us change it whenever we want to for whatever purpose, as if we are a cell phone company or an internet service provider or something".

Re:Smile!

[mhotchin]

There's actually a reason for that. Let's say that the question is basically 'Are you a terrorist?'. If you are found out or convicted, then the government probably want to deport you, right? Well, now they don't need to create new rules about deporting terrorists. They just use the existing 'You lied on your paperwork' rule to toss you out - no muss, no fuss.

Re:Smile!

[bill_mcgonigle]

Well, who says they can use my driver's license photo to do facial recognition on? I didn't sign up for that.

Since when do slaves get to say what they will or will not do?

Re:Smile!

[ImprovOmega]

Must suck for identical twins separated at birth.

Re:Smile!

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow I don't think they immediately throw potential matches into prison.

Smiling foold facial recognition?

[KatchooNJ]

So... To flip this... does that mean if I smile when doing something naughty, I won't be recognized by the serious computers?

Re:Smiling foold facial recognition?

[Firehed]

Cue the Joker references.

Re:Smiling foold facial recognition?

[Anonymous Coward]

wouldn't you be smiling while doing naughty things anyway? :-)

Re:Smiling foold facial recognition?

[JustOK]

Don't know why, but I'm always so serious.

Re:Smiling foold facial recognition?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is what I do. I'm dead serious during picture time, and then I have a big smile elsewhere. Now we know how to hack the system, keep smiling, keep smiling.

Re:Smiling foold facial recognition?

[matthelm007]

No, but because it is a law, and that's the reason, a good lawyer could get you out of almost anything if they used ONLY the facial recognition software, and the picture they used had you smiling. Now if they had ANY other evidence, or you did something REALLY bad, it doesn't matter where they got it, you are screwed.

Re:Smiling foold facial recognition?

[Ol Biscuitbarrel]

"Call me...Anonymous Coward!"

Re:Smiling foold facial recognition?

[kmoser]

Those insensitive clods. I suffer from rictus.

That's ok

[AwesomeMcgee]

I'll just pencil the grin in, along with evil mustache on my next picture.

Re:That's ok

[knarfling]

I am still trying the Steven Wright method. He managed to have his licence photo taken out of focus. That way, when the cops pull him over, they stare at the photo for a second and then say, "Here. You can go."

Despite my best effors, I have not been able to accomplish this ... yet.

Re:That's ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing as how this is NJ, I'm still going with my Insane Clown Posse makeup countermeasure.

Re:That's ok

[cyberchondriac]

You have to vibrate really rapidly when your picture is being snapped - short exposure time and all that ;p

Re:That's ok

[Immerman]

No, no, you've got it wrong - it's not a matter of getting the photo taken out of focus, you have to be out of focus when the photo is taken - it can be a bit of a challenge, but no camera can take a focused photo of a person who's out of focus to begin with.

Re:That's ok

[__aaeihw9960]

Like this? That seems like it would be easy enough to do.

Actually, technically, I believe we're all currently doing that.

Re:That's ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you've never heard of ENHANCE!

Ban lips??!?

[Baby Duck]

Banning of lips?? Reminds me of the Footloose spoof called Footless where the whole town sold their feet to the Chinese.

Noone at the MVA smiles

[stevegee58]

so why should we?

Re:Noone at the MVA smiles

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw someone smile at the MVA, and I ran. I figured they had finally snapped. Too late for facial recognition at that point anyway.

Fuck the software

[Anonymous Coward]

Shove it up the ass of our robot overlords.

Re:Fuck the software

[Genda]

There's the future this is all headed towards. The government will determine the best possible way to ID people is with a rectal scan. You'll go to the DMV, get in a long line of people bent over at the waste along a lengthy formica counter. A professionally dressed gentleman with rubber gloves holding an object that resembles a rubber drain snake will step behind each applicant (or supplicant as the case may be), and share with them the joy that comes from a 12 inch dose of national security. Pants will naturally come with a self sealing sphincter much like the meaty counter parts on the person wearing said pants. Everywhere you go in public, as soon as you sit down, a robotic device will plumb your identity and for this minor inconvenience we shall all be safe.

The irony being we will then all be known by our assholes, just like dogs, and the folks currently inhabiting D.C. these days.

I dunno, I think I'd be happy to trade a little national security for a wee bit more liberty... just a thought, don't wanna rock the boat or anything... sleep on it, eh?

Re:Fuck the software

[Anonymous Coward]

>eh?

Stopped reading there, you canuck scum.

Smilex!

[gl4ss]

Smilex! it's good for you!

also, anyone smiling is now a terrorist suspect.

though, in all fairness, crying probably foils the sw too. as long as your nose, cheeks and lips move it's fucked.

Why so serious-s-s-s-s-s-.......?

[Anonymous Coward]

EOM

Want to steal? Just smile!

[omnichad]

Cue the grinning criminal outbreak!

Obviously the facial recognition software won't recognize you committing your crime if you do it with a smile.

Already the case in France.

[dpdawson]

From what I remember of my prefecture experiences, France already bans hair blocking the ears in government related documents.

Re:Already the case in France.

[Anonymous Coward]

That must be a slight problem if you have hairy ears! I'll make sure not to go to France ...

Re:Already the case in France.

[Macgrrl]

The last time I renewed my Australian passport I had to get my photo taken 3 times before they accepted it. It had to show both ears (or the absence thereof) - so you had to be square to the camera, I wasn't allowed to smile, it had to show my hair colour [1], however the hair had to be back off my face.

[1] Ironic given it changes every couple of months or so. Once place I worked previously made you have your security pass photo retaken if you changed hair colour. I had a collection of passes in my desk I would cycle through depending on what colour I'd dyed it last time around.

Validation

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely NO Smiling, Smirking, Humor, or General Gaiety permitted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao

Re:Validation

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for posting this; I hadn't seen it, and man, it was so worth the 15 minutes! (45 minutes, actually... so far I've watched it three times!)

No smiles in Ohio

[Geoffrey.landis]

That's not new. No smiles in Ohio, either-- I renewed my license over a year ago, and was quite firmly instructed that smiles were not allowed in drivers license photos because it screws up the facial recognition software.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10249834-71.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/27/states-adopting-no-smiles-policy-for-drivers-licenses/
http://www.webanswers.com/legal/why-can-t-you-smile-in-your-drivers-license-picture-84ffba

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Shatrat]

Nor Indiana. I wonder if they all use the same software with the same readme?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[fearlezz]

Nor the Netherlands. Seems politicians want to wipe every single smile of our faces.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[nemui-chan]

Same in Nevada.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Rev Saxon]

Texas is out for smiles as well. They also discriminate against glasses, which is funny as besides that photo I don't know the last time I was out in public without mine on. Actually get a better hit from matching technology if the picture of me was wearing them.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[pixelpusher220]

Virginia too, my wife just got her license renewed and wasn't allowed to smile.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[timchampion]

... nor Iowa

except I was told that the reason was that you won't be smiling when the cop pulls you over. Now I know the real reason.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Immerman]

Actually I don't think the software even "sees" glasses, they don't affect the control point recognition, but glasses can throw human-powered facial recognition off, and it's a lot easier for an official to ask you to remove your glasses when confirming your identity than to have you wear the same style as in your photo if you've changed them or are wearing contacts. Also glasses and flash photography don't get along all that well (glare hides your eyes), and do you really want *another* reason for the barely competent person at the DMV to spend three hours trying to do something simple for the person in front of you?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

I work as an engineer in ohio for the company behind all this and can tell you facial recognition never works anyhow.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Some day we're gonna have millions of robots. They have to be able to recognize you so the one guy in the room can send them out to arrest you.

You exist to serve the government. It is the logical conclusion of history the past hundred years.

Smile, wait, don't smile for your new robot overlords. And you are not permitted to read that copy of 1984 because it is inflammatory and may cause fights.

(Pssst. To defeat the robot overlords, smile.)

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[AvitarX]

Probably part of the guides for federal ID.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[The Grim Reefer]

It's been almost two years since I renewed my license in Virginia too. What's even funnier is that the guy ahead of me had a tee shirt on with Bob Marley on it. The print of Bob smiling on the shirt screwed up the camera (or operator) somehow. After several attempts they made him turn his shirt inside-out.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[AvitarX]

Really? I wonder if it has to do with state population.

I went to get a replacement for a move (in Delaware), and before I said my name, they snapped a pick and asked if I was "fistname lastname", I assume they're testing the software with renewals, losses, and change of addresses, and it appears to work.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Jason Levine]

Given some of the drivers licence photos I've had, I think human facial recognition doesn't need glasses to be thrown off.

One time, I renewed my driver's license and they reused the old photograph. For some reason, though, they darkened my skin in the picture. I commented at the time (pre-9-11) that I looked like I was from the Middle East. (My ancestry is Russia so the photo was very darkened.)

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[K. S. Kyosuke]

I renewed my license over a year ago, and was quite firmly instructed that smiles were not allowed in drivers license photos because it screws up the facial recognition software.

That means you have to smile while driving. :-)

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't it be simpler just to tattoo a bar code on everybody's forehead?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[CubicleZombie]

Virginia, too, where every third car on the road is a cop. Why smile on the license photo? I'd rather be giving the finger.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

You exist to serve the rich and powerful. It is the logical conclusion of history the past hundred years.

It's not the government, inherently, who wants to control you. It is the individuals in the government. Those that have something to sell you. Those with money and power. They like their money and power. They want to keep it forever and ever, and make sure that no one else can ever have as much power as they do.

Why do people like you always blame the government when it's the wealthy and powerful, regardless of governmental connections, who are really in control?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[cayenne8]

I wonder...is there no way to object to submitting to 'facial recognition' on privacy grounds....maybe associating it with being an un-warranted intrusion on a citizen's privacy without probably cause??

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[shiftless]

If I'm cuffed and stuffed into a police cruiser for a non-crime, it's not the "wealthy and powerful" who is putting the cuffs on me.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Medievalist]

Interesting; I was at the New Castle DMV yesterday and they didn't do anything like that to me. Were you at the Wilmington DMV?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[citricshooter]

... nor Iowa except I was told that the reason was that you won't be smiling when the cop pulls you over. Now I know the real reason.

As I recall, they were honest with me at the time ( a couple of years ago ).

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

You're thinking too locally. Obviously it's the fucking cops who arrest you. BUT, who decides how the law is enforced? Hell, for that matter - who decides what laws exist? The wealthiest people in the country.

If you honestly believe that you matter to anyone in power as anything more than a pocketbook with legs, you're naive. If you honestly believe that the government is free and clear of the control of the rich elite, you're stupid.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[reboot246]

Of course! Just make sure that 666 is somewhere in the number.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got my license renewed in Indianapolis last week, and I have long hair that covers my forehead and ears. I smiled for the camera, and was not admonished not to. These were all things I had heard were no-no's last year, so something has changed, something you can smile about as they take your picture.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Mephistophocles]

There's just something deliciously ironic about this.

So no smiles - how about grimaces, massive frowns, or even clown-like pull-your-lips-hoizontally-cross-your-eyes-and-stick-out-your-tounge?

I say treat these asshole bureaucrats with exactly the respect they deserve - either smile or pull one of the above stunts, refuse to change your expression until he snaps the picture, and refuse to move until you get your license. Can't think of a broken law there. Seriously, don't stand for this shit, people. Make their jobs impossible - if everyone does it, this crap won't fly anymore.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[SQLGuru]

You could just wear one of those IR light hats.....

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[93 Escort Wagon]

Nor the Netherlands. Seems politicians want to wipe every single smile of our faces.

Dutch stories don't count - they're harder to blame on American politics.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Ol Biscuitbarrel]

Or the right T-Shirt for the occasion.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[amiga3D]

It's on the way.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Bysshe]

Oh I'm not so sure. I was smiling when I saw that nutcase lost most of his seats.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[AvitarX]

If it was a renewal, the old licenses may not have the right details to face recognize? my license I was getting replaced was already post smile, and also, yeah, the new fancy one is where i went.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Hillgiant]

Dude. Have you driven in New Jersey?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[evafan76]

When I took mine, it kept locking on to Darth Vader on my t-shirt. So they made me put on my coat, which was a M65 field jacket I had modified to be a part of a cosplay (was wearing cause it was cold and I blew my entire paycheck on Caps tickets, manga, and DnD books instead of buying a coat). So now I get funny looks at cons when I get asked for ID and I'm wearing said cosplay.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[DamnStupidElf]

This is fairly strong evidence that the facial recognition software is a steaming pile of shit and rather easy to defeat in other ways, like smiling like an idiot while committing a crime on camera.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[J'raxis]

You could always move to a state that doesn't engage in such privacy invasions, such as New Hampshire. Here, you can actually check off a box on the license application form requiring them to not even store your photo in their database.

The New Hampshire Legislature also prohibited its DMV from implementing the federal "Real ID" program which is what's driving a lot of this crap. The state also prohibits its agencies and localities from implementing red light cameras, license plate readers, &c., too.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

We're all proles now.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[lister king of smeg]

easy to turn it around on them literally just make a big frown/grimiace it shouldn't be that hard after all you just had to wait in purgatory i mean the line at the DMV

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

and do you really want *another* reason for the barely competent person at the DMV to spend three hours trying to do something simple for the person in front of you?

The price of liberty is slight inconvenience? Fuck that, let's just be slaves.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[RKBA]

I would love to move there and join the Free State Project but am presently looking for a house to buy in NW Oregon because I'm old and it's too cooooooold in New Hampshire. Why on Earth couldn't they have chosen a state with a better climate?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[bill_mcgonigle]

Why on Earth couldn't they have chosen a state with a better climate?

There's two ways to look at this:

1) you can read their selection criteria and see why New Hampshire is the State with the best chance for success.

2) people who are really going to be strong activists for liberty don't care. They put on a jacket and fight the system. The fire in their belly keeps them warm, I guess. They see people who care more about climate than liberty as not really serious about liberty.

Also, I know some who fully intend to make New Hampshire the best it can be, watch the rest of the US crumble around it, and when their preferred geographic region restructures its society to be more like New Hampshire (because it survived the best out of all the former States) they'll move back. At the rate things are going, it might only take a decade.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[JimBobJoe]

Interesting, I had not heard of that, and I have an Ohio license (and research these issues quite closely.)

The thing that bugs me is that this is an unnecessary public relations problem for motor vehicle agencies. Ok, so your software sucks and can't do facial recognition on facial expressions.

Take one photographs of a neutral expression for the database.

Take another photograph, if the person wants, where they can have whatever smile they want to print on the license card.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

It's hard to smile when driving in a state with the highest police per capita

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

Population, and how much you look like a girl, oddly. It has trouble w gender.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[davester666]

Colored contacts [different shade and size of cornea/pupil], rubber ears and cotton in the nose and mouth should be good enough to throw off the facial recognition stuff. Maybe look cross-eyed for good measure.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[mapkinase]

In contrary, smiles in Russia ("foreign" passports) are not prohibited, but, oh, how I wish I did not. Now every time I enter this blessed country, every single board guard that checks my passport thinks it is funny to tell me that I do not look like the picture and waits until I show them all my 28 teeth in "American" smile, greeting me back with a smug smile of their own.

In Russia, to be concise, nobody smiles. Smiling is suspicious, it could mean that you are making fun of the person you are conversing with.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[MitchDev]

That's where all this "facial recognition", DNA databases, and such are leading us anyway. America was a nice experiment while it lasted, but it's a dying land, teh freedom it promises is an illusion, and our "leaders" have no interest in fixing it.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[MitchDev]

Better yet, don't have a database. SToP TReaTING CITIZENS LIKE FUCKING CATTLE!!!!

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[coastal984]

No smiles in Virginia either. Granted, my last license pic I looked stoned out of my mind (I was 17 and it was 8am - not my brightest hour of the morning) - but now I just look like I'm mad at the world, one of those people you see as the perpetrator in one of those hilarious workplace violence training videos...

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[cayenne8]

While I highly admire that...I do marvel at the lack of liberty they have on things...banning things like smoking just about anywhere in public (and maybe soon into their own houses?)?

They are apparently so uptight about even looking at a beer before having to drive somewhere it borders on obsessive.....

I love the ID stuff, but when I've been up there, I've been amazed at how uptight they are on just normal, every day life things that are much more relaxed in other parts around the nation.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

Yanno what... They can go eff themselves... If your big-brother system can't manage with normal stuff, then you can do without the assists.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Devoidoid]

If the cops in NJ were all high, things would be a lot more relaxed on the turnpike.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Anonymous Coward]

You're assuming too much. The powerful will push for laws that benefit them, but this doesn't explain the passage of all laws. In many cases its a stupid electorate that passes them. For example, economically illiterate people pushing for rent control, knee-jerk conservatives pushing for 'get tough on crime' laws that ruin families over non-crimes like drug infractions. -Posting AC to preserve mod points.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[J'raxis]

The smoking ban passed before any freestaters had been seriously involved in politics. I think it passed in 2006, the same year the first freestater was elected to the Legislature. We now have 12-15 freestaters in there. I don't think anyone's tried to roll back that particular law yet, but here's a list of the pro-liberty bills that passed this year, compiled by Republican Liberty Caucus member and State Representative Paul Mirski:

NH HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SESSION ACCOMPLISHMENTS 2011-2012

In November, 2010, the New Hampshire House of Representatives received a mandate from the
voters of New Hampshire to promote economic development and create jobs; to cut state spending;
to reduce taxes and fees; to return fiscal sanity to the state; to fix a state retirement system that was
structurally deficient; to provide our children with an education based on excellence; to protect the
personal rights and freedoms of its citizens; and to maintain transparency in state government.
Those mandates reflected our promises to New Hampshire. Listed here is a compilation of new laws
the 2011-2012 New Hampshire House of Representatives passed keeping those promises.

Setting an example for our citizens by "living within our means":

Passed a budget 11% smaller than the prior budget, reducing spending by over $1.2 billion
and general fund spending by $536 million, or 18%. (HBs 1&2)

Passed a state budget that includes no new or increased taxes or fees. (HBs 1&2)

Reversed past two terms budgets' accounting gimmicks by passing a budget that does not
bond any operating costs or sell assets from one state agency to another to claim fictitious
revenue, while using responsible revenue estimates. (HBs 1&2)

The state returned $1 million in ObamaCare funds to the federal government with instructions
to use the money for debt reduction. (HB 601)

Passed an education funding formula that maintains existing levels of aid to communities and
allows additional targeted aid to needy cities and towns. (HB 337)

Requires for future state budgets that state agencies to submit budgets that actually reduce
spending in addition to any request to expand state government. (SB 146)

Reducing and Reforming Taxes:

Eliminated the auto registration surcharge, which was costing our residents and small
businesses between $30 and $75 every year for each vehicle they registered, putting $90
million back in our citizens' pockets. (HB 1&2)

To fulfill our commitment to reduce the highest business tax rate in the nation, new laws offer
10 forms of tax relief to employers to help them grow their business: including reforming the
burden of proof for reasonable compensation, and doubling the carry-forward period for the
BET. (SB 125)

Two new statutes help our retailers, particularly those in border communities, become more
competitive and grow: eliminating the gambling winnings tax and repealing the most recent of
the four tobacco taxes in the past six years. (HB 229 & HB 2)

The legislature also cut a number of fees on restaurants, hotels, motel, pet stores, fishing
enthusiasts, those selling condominiums, and people getting married. (HBs 2 & 571)

Cities and towns that are impacted by fire or other major acts of nature are now eligible for
community revitalization tax relief to allow for the repair or rebuilding of damaged structures.

Directed the Business Finance Authority to establish an innovation business job growth
initiative to promote investment in New Hampshire employers and to coordinate venture
capital with startups statewide. (HB 605)

Increased the net operating loss carryforward under the business profits tax (BPT) from $1
million to $10 million, which reduces the tax burden on our businesses and makes our state
more competitive in attracting and retaining employers. (HB 242)

Extended the research and development tax credit encouraging businesses

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[J'raxis]

Southern New Hampshire, especially along the seacoast, has a mild climate. It's probably not as mild as the Northwest, but it's not the "six months of winter" that the northern parts of New Hampshire are known for.

You should come up and visit sometime and see what the climate is really like here. You can contact me here if you'd like.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[DarwinSurvivor]

banning things like smoking just about anywhere in public

As a non-smoker, I wish we had such laws here. I'm sick and tired of gagging on your burning tar sticks every time I walk through a damned park!

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[DarwinSurvivor]

Does your shirt actually show up in your drivers' license photo, or does the camera do some kind of "auto-crop"?

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[ganjadude]

I can understand not wanting smokers in a resturant, I smoke and i cant stand the smell of it while eating, but out in the open air? screw you, there is way more crap in the air than a puff of smoke. Than again I am of the type that if i see a parent and their kids, i walk to the other side of the street and keep my cig down until I pass them,. I am sick and tired of people trying to force others to do or not do things.

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[nobodie]

10 years ago in Virginia

Re:No smiles in Ohio

[Gridpoet]

well that's weird, just got my 4th renew on my Ohio license in July and i'm smiling pretty big. No one said a thing to me. ...now i'm GLAD i smiled!

Next step

[phorm]

Nah, you'll just get detained for extra questioning due to smiling too much.

Re:Next step

[Anonymous Coward]

Or not smiling enough. Parkinson’s Sufferer Arrested for ‘Not Smiling’ at Olympic Men’s Cycling Race.

Re:Next step

[sabri]

One more reason to stay away from the U.K.

(but don't say that out loud, you'll be modded down and attacked by the Brits).

Virginia has the same problem.

[gcnaddict]

It's also worth noting that Virginia sued Northrop either last year or two years ago for issues over creating driver's licenses, so I suspect New Jersey decided to also contract with Northrop for the same system.

Oh well, their loss. Everyone in VA looks like a serial killer on their black-and-white photos.

Re:Virginia has the same problem.

[nurb432]

Well, most everyone there is.

How to troll the DMV, from G4TV

[Rakarra]

Picture link. Simple effective fun!
The result: The finished license.

Re:How to troll the DMV, from G4TV

[jeffb (2.718)]

Great. Now anybody with the simplest image-processing software can see exactly how you'll look with and without a beard, and with and without hair -- just mirror the appropriate part of the image.

Now, if you're really paranoid, there ought to be all sorts of ways to do the equivalent of dazzle camouflage in your DMV photo. Asymmetric stripes in your beard or hair, a bit of Darth Maul work with a sharpie...

Re:How to troll the DMV, from G4TV

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, if you're really paranoid, there ought to be all sorts of ways to do the equivalent of dazzle camouflage in your DMV photo.

There are, and you're not the first to think of it.

Re:How to troll the DMV, from G4TV

[jeffb (2.718)]

Happy to hear it. Mod parent up please...

I smiled for my NJ license

[Jaxim]

I just got my NJ license last week and no one told me not to smile. I guess it's not enforced consistently.

But the bigger issue is why hasn't renewing process gone digital? why do I need to wait hours to renew my license? What they should do is allow renewal of licenses to be done over the internet. You can submit your own photo if you follow certain guidelines: i.e. blank background, well lit, no hats/scarves, even no smile, etc. Then the NJ employee can approve your license if you followed all the directions and your photo looks like you are 4 years older than the previous photo that they have on record. If your renewal license is not renewed for what ever reason then you will need to come in person to renew your license.

It adds a bit of complexity, but I bet it would speed things up.

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[kidgenius]

Just come live in AZ. We don't have to renew our licenses until we are 65. Keep your picture for 40+ years.

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You can submit your own photo if you follow certain guidelines: i.e. blank background, well lit, no hats/scarves, even no smile, etc

I wish they let you do that. They sort of let you do that with passport photos and that provides plenty of opportunity to tweak the photo in such a way as to confuse facial recognition algos but still pass muster with any human who looks at the photo. Use photoshop to change the distance between your eyes, smooth out your cheekbones, fiddle with your jawline, etc. All minor things, but the facial recog algos are fragile (hence the no smiling rule) and small changes that most humans won't even notice can be enough to totally throw them off.

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but when I tried they deported me to Mexico for not having ID... I tried to tell them I was Puerto Rican and born in the US but the Sherif was a real dick about it.

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[Urza9814]

But the bigger issue is why hasn't renewing process gone digital? why do I need to wait hours to renew my license?

Your DMV sucks, that's why. I recently moved from Pennsylvania to Rhode Island...and quickly realized that the Pennsylvania DMV system is pretty awesome. Last time I had to get my license renewed in PA I popped in after work and had my new license in my hand within half an hour. Up here to get a license it takes a month and a half by mail...spent the first three full days after I moved sitting in the damn DMV for crap that would have been done in an hour back in PA. If you're near the NJ/PA border, I suggest you move ;)

Not that PA is a good state for any other reason...but that's more reason than I currently have for Jersey! ;)

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

Apparently the moderators haven't seen the last few episodes of The Wacky World of Arizona Law Enforcement.

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[Anonymous Coward]

In MA, licenses are renewed every 5 years, but you only have to go to the RMV once every 10 years (the other renewals are online). The in-person renewal process only takes a few minutes once you get through the wait; wait times and all of the paperwork can be found online, so you show up whenever the wait isn't too long with all of the paperwork already filled out. Once your turn comes up, you just hand over the paperwork and your old license, take the eye exam, get your picture taken, sign your name, and you're done.

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true, the licences do not expire, but looking at ADOTs page you have to renew your picture every 12 years.

Re:I smiled for my NJ license

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we have to get pictures every 12 years..

In Arizona, U.S. citizens with clean driving records don't need to renew their licenses until their 65th birthday. Drivers do need to renew their photos every 12 years,

Quoted from http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/06/14/20110614arizona-driver-license-test-failure.html

Passports

[dskoll]

Passports make sense because by the time you're done being manhandled by the TSA or CATSA, you're likely to look very grumpy anyway.

But I'm usually not in a terrible mood when I'm driving.

Re:Passports

[oneiros27]

But no one's looking at your license while you're driving. It's when you're grumpy for having been pulled over that they ask to see your license.

Re:Passports

[nurb432]

But I'm usually not in a terrible mood when I'm driving.

No, but when you have been stopped and being asked for ID you may not be so thrilled.

Not news

[Anonymous Coward]

Maryland has already required this for quite some time. As far as I know, some other states already require this too. Not sure why it's a big deal, since DL pictures always look horrible anyway.

Re:Not news

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they actually have such a rule at the MVA (Maryland's whacky take on a DMV), or is it just a de-facto effect? The only time I can smile at the MVA is when I'm leaving.

People smile at the DMV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really?

Image Hacking

[carrier lost]

I usually try to obscure my face with my middle finger whenever I see a traffic camera

Re:Image Hacking

[omnichad]

Too bad they're taking a picture of your license plate and don't care what your face looks like.

Re:Image Hacking

[PRMan]

Actually, they do. They have to be able to prove it was you driving if it goes to court.

Re:Image Hacking

[Rob the Bold]

Actually, they do. They have to be able to prove it was you driving if it goes to court.

YMMV. Per Iowa law, it's up to you to show you either rented out the vehicle or produce the police report you filed when it got stolen. State legislature considered banning traffic cameras in general, but the big cities that use them rely on the revenue and lobbied against it. On the plus side -- if there is a real 'plus' -- it's not a criminal or traffic offense.

Re:Image Hacking

[carrier lost]

Too bad they're taking a picture of your license plate and don't care what your face looks like.

So that's why they made me take the smiley-face stickers off my license plate!

Re:Image Hacking

[shiftless]

Per Iowa law, it's up to you to show you either rented out the vehicle

The vehicle is up for sale and someone was test driving it. Not my responsibility. Also, tough luck about some random person shooting out every single camera you spend thousands of taxpayer dollars to install. Vandals these days huh?

Re:Image Hacking

[Anonymous Coward]

Had a military buddy in Australia who had a collection of speed camera pictures he received with invalid tickets. He had his Vette shipped to Australia and all the speed cameras had pictures of the empty speeding camera instead of the passenger seat. Quite funny.

Re:Image Hacking

[Rob the Bold]

Per Iowa law, it's up to you to show you either rented out the vehicle

The vehicle is up for sale and someone was test driving it. Not my responsibility.

Makes you wonder why everyone getting a parking ticket hasn't thought of that, doesn't it?

duckface

[Anonymous Coward]

Is blue steel allowed?

Re:Want to steal? Just smile!

[lcam]

When you go through the red-light, big smile for the camera!

beard

[confused one]

not shaving my beard. It's only just starting to show grey...

Re:beard

[Anonymous Coward]

Preach it Mithrandir.

Re:beard

[Anonymous Coward]

i was wondering how a beard would effect the software??? What about weight gain or lose? I heard make up can skew it also. Shave off your beard than grow it back after you get your license maybe?

Re:oh boy

[hazah]

Corrupt and stupid is one thing... but why give them a hard time for the gangbangs?

Glasses free?

[Anubis IV]

Now that passports are by decree grim and glasses-free

Yeah...no. That's simply untrue. I went into the post office to get my passport photo taken last month and they didn't have me remove my glasses, nor did the Department of State seem to have any issues with my wearing them in my photo, since I just received my new passport last week.

I think I read that there are some rules against a few particular types of glasses that obscure too much of the face (e.g. chunky frames), but they had no issues with my standard looking thin frames.

Re:Glasses free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here. After having read the guidelines they recommend not wearing them if you don't have an anti-glare coating either, as they will obscure your eyes if the photo is taken with flash.

Re:Glasses free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Passports != driver's license. One of the amusing things while working at a grocery store in CA was that a passport wasn't considered a valid form of ID. I believe they finally changed that law, but it was a good reminder of how stupid bureaucracies can be.

Validation

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a great story. And yes, it's on topic for the OP. Take time to watch it all the way through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao

This news is double-plus good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuff said ...

Smiling?

[Anonymous Coward]

"And the heat came by and busted me for smiling on a cloudy day." R. Hunter.

been this way for a few years in VA

[Anonymous Coward]

the fine print does indeed state no "teeth" in your smile.
i gave them my biggest pursed-lip grin with a raised eyebrow and it was deemed ok by the counter monkey. as long as you dont show teeth.

Mod AC parent up

[ClickOnThis]

I was going to post this but AC parent beat me to it.

Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

NJ isn't the only DMV doing stuff like this to make facial recognition easier. If they won't let you smile, try to turn your head so you are looking at the camera at an angle - part of the algorithm uses the distance between your eyes so turning your head, even slightly, in a simple 2D photo is going to change that. Width of nose and shape of cheekbones are also part of the equation so stuff cotton balls up your nose and in your cheeks and then just pretend you have a cold. Mascara helps too because it trys to figure out the depth of your eye sockets from the 2D photo too.

Beyond all that a big question that none of these DMVs have had to answer is what the hell does the DMV need facial recognition for? It is a license to drive, if you get pulled over and you don't have a license on you (which is not illegal, you are only required to be licensed, not actually carry it with you when you drive that's just for convenience) they can just type your name in the computer in their car and bring up your DMV record and visually confirm your identity, no computerized facial recognition needed.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Anonymous Coward]

(which is not illegal, you are only required to be licensed, not actually carry it with you when you drive that's just for convenience)

This is what I was told way back in driver's ed. Though I think it probably varies from state to state.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[DanTheStone]

Beyond all that a big question that none of these DMVs have had to answer is what the hell does the DMV need facial recognition for?

As I said in a higher thread, it's primarily to make sure that you don't get cards issued in multiple names. That is apparently attempted on a fairly regular basis, to the point that essentially every state has put in these systems to stop fraud. And they do actually catch people.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Anonymous Coward]

Beyond all that a big question that none of these DMVs have had to answer is what the hell does the DMV need facial recognition for?

As another post said, it's to catch people getting driving licenses under multiple names, possibly to circumvent a license suspension, possibly for reasons unrelated to driving.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Anonymous Coward]

I wore an eyepatch in my photo.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

That is a plausible explanation, but I would like to see an evaluation of the trade-offs. How many fakers do they catch that would not have been caught otherwise, for example with a closer examination of the required paperwork. And, is that worth the extra cost, both monetary for the system and the cost to law-abiding citizens of misuse.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Anonymous Coward]

About 20 years ago, Australia brought in data-sharing among government departments. The ostensible purpose of this was saving $215 million in fraudulent welfare payments. When all was said and done, the actual money saved was $35 million. Of course now, every time I fill in a government form, the government wants to review my tax return: Not a full audit, just a verification of details.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Anonymous Coward]

what's to say they don't have multiple cameras and are making a surreptitious 3d image of your head?

Shit, did I just give them an idea?

And, I am more than a little freaked out that I even so easily think of them as "them". Is it really that bad?

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Inda]

After uploading casual photos to Google, and Google reconising half the people in the photos, I'd say none of your tips would work.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I assume this is google+ you are talking about.
Are all of the recognized people in your "social circle" or whatever its called there?
The reason I ask is because if google only has to search against a database of a couple o fhundred people then its face id algo doesn't need to be as smart since there are going to be less false positives.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[strikethree]

Beyond all that a big question that none of these DMVs have had to answer is what the hell does the DMV need facial recognition for? It is a license to drive

It is also official identification that can be used when opening bank accounts and such. Would you want someone getting identification in your name? If that person already has an ID card, then when they apply for another in your name, the system will catch them.

The real issue with a system like this is that it can become (it sure looks like it is being planned) a master key in a database covering every scrap of information ever collected about you. And me. And him. And her.

Re:Turn Your Head and Use Cotton Balls

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

It is also official identification that can be used when opening bank accounts and such.

I think that aspect of driver's licenses needs to be rethought. Maybe the cat is out of the bag, maybe not.

If that person already has an ID card, then when they apply for another in your name, the system will catch them.

That only works if there is a master database of everyone, not just those in that one state.

yeah but..

[Anonymous Coward]

Do New Jersey people have many reasons to smile anyway?

GLEAN THE CUBE! HACK THE GIBSON, MAN!

[Thud457]

I see a big market for rub-on tattoos for third eyes[1], ears and second noses and mouths!


[1] also works to ward off the evil eye!

Muslim Tranny?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I wear a burkha?

Outlaws

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory: "When smiles are outlawed, only the outlaws will be smiling."

Probably wouldn't work in the UK

[Penurious Penguin]

Apparently this year, an Olympics spectator was arrested for not smiling: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/08/olympics-spectator-parkinsons-arrest-smiling

This could get confusing...
Travel Agent: Alright, that about sums it up. But a little word of advice before we part; when you arrive in the UK, be sure to keep a smile on your face.
Customer: But isn't that illegal?
Travel Agent: They're a little different over there. Ya know, they drive on the other side of road and such and eat scones.
Customer: Hmm. I don't know. I was once tazed by a TSA VIPR agent for smiling and it wasn't fun. I pissed myself in front of my kids.
Travel Agent: Good grief! Things are getting ridiculous around here, aren't they. Have you ever considered Iceland?
Customer: ...Iceland. Hmm. Yes, that sounds good.

Social Enginerring at Work

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in New Jersey. They do plenty to keep people from smiling at the DMV without making any rules against it.

When smiling becomes a crime...

[Frosty Piss]

...Only criminals will smile!

Re:When smiling becomes a crime...

[Jason Levine]

This whole thing is a plot hatched by the Joker.

To the batmobile! (Thankfully, Batman still has his licence because Batman never smiles.)

Re:When smiling becomes a crime...

[Anonymous Coward]

Batman still has his licence because Batman never smiles.

<POW!>

You're not funny. - Batman

Joisey

[heptapod]

Why would they smile? They live in Jersey.

I speak from experience having moved from Colorado to NJ.

Not Bad !

[Anonymous Coward]

I always do a "Not Bad" figure and other grimasse for these picture, that look like it's your normal face, like Mr Bean, I obviouly make the same grimasse when I get to the border or when asked for my paper...

Then how would it work when they need it?

[h4rr4r]

If this facial recognition software cannot deal with smiles, how is it going to work on other random photos?

Seems like it would be of pretty limited usefulness.

They'll never get my Pasta Strainer

[Anonymous Coward]

Religious headgear may still be allowed, so don't forget your Pasta Strainer!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/07/15/137824732/austrian-man-wins-right-to-wear-pasta-strainer-in-license-photo

Old news

[nurb432]

All this stuff messes with facial recognition. They also ban hats, glasses, etc. Facial hair, no, but you cant have your hair over your face...

We have been doing this for some time now. Even caught a few people with multiple ID's in the system so it does work.

Re:Old news

[misexistentialist]

Yeah, too bad about the people who lost their licenses because of false matches. But it keeps the children safe, so don't complain!

Re:Old news

[vux984]

Yeah, too bad about the people who lost their licenses because of false matches

Yes that would be pretty annoying. Now has it ever actually happened?

Re:Old news

[misexistentialist]

It's actually happening And the Massachusetts Registrar demonstrates that bureaucrats' attitudes are actually shitty:

protecting the public far outweighs any inconvenience..."A driver's license is not a matter of civil rights. It's not a right. It's a privilege," she said. "Yes, it is an inconvenience [to have to clear your name], but lots of people have their identities stolen, and that's an inconvenience, too."

REAL ID

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell, slashdot? Not one anti-fascism person here was aware that this is to comply with the REAL ID Act?

Seriously?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever had to get/renew your license in NJ? After all the lines and 'friendly' people that work at the DMV, who the hell wants to smile?

Just dealt with this in the beginning of the month, you wouldn't believe how many dopes couldn't stop smiling.

Try adopting

[Charliemopps]

I adopted my son from Ethiopia a few years ago and had to go to a Homeland security office a few hours away from me for an entire day to fill out paperwork and get every single finger, and even my palms printed. Then they took pictures of me from every angle imaginable. I told the homeland security agent "Well I guess going off the grid won't be an option anymore" he laughed and said "Yea, you're definitely in the system now"

On the bright side, I went to buy a handgun recently and the store owner called in my background check to the FBI. He gave them my SS# and then said "Oh... really? Already?" and hung up. He said that what usually happens is they research it and call him back. He's never had them just approve it over the phone in a matter of seconds like that. So I guess when the government has already logged every cell in your body already there are at least some benefits.

Re:Try adopting

[drinkypoo]

On the bright side, I went to buy a handgun recently and the store owner called in my background check to the FBI. He gave them my SS# and then said "Oh... really? Already?" and hung up. He said that what usually happens is they research it and call him back. He's never had them just approve it over the phone in a matter of seconds like that. So I guess when the government has already logged every cell in your body already there are at least some benefits.

I got my passport in the middle of that big fat weeks-long backlog we had a while back. It took me less than two weeks. My FBI file must be massive.

Re:Try adopting

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, wait. You need a background check to buy a fucking handgun? The terrorist have already won.

So always smile.

[Modern]

So if you always smile except for official photos then that same software still will not recognize you. If you happy and you know it :).

Smile Away...

[FatdogHaiku]

I guess if you want to get away with something you had better be smiling the whole time... if you mess up pattern matching by having a smile in the official exemplar then it would follow that you mess up pattern matching by having a smile in the sample to be compared, right?

what where they thinking?

[slew]

1. Remember to smile when breaking the law... OR
2. Create startup company which intends to develop software for facial recognition of smiling people...
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!

Smile... smile... and smile!!!

[jofilho]

So, this is the trick: if you don't want to be recognized by machines... take serious photos and smile the rest of the time.

Re:oh boy

[Anonymous Coward]

California "livescans" your thumbprints. The initial resistance to realid was symbolic. They all caved in the end as usual due to highway funding.

This is what extortion with your own tax dollars looks like, and we're well on our way down the road to serfdom.

Would hardly be necessary

[Timmy D Programmer]

I thought the long lines and grumpy and abrasive nature of a typical New Jersey DMV employee would be plenty effective at preventing smiles. ;-)

I can see 666 reasons why that wouldn't fly

[tepples]

I can see 666 reasons why tattooing a bar code wouldn't fly with members of some religions.

If you live in a police state, this is expected.

[Anonymous Coward]

Me, I have always thought New Jersey was a good place to avoid. The police are corrupt, the
judges are corrupt, and the air and water is not healthy to breathe or drink.

Hey New Jersey :

FUCK YOU

Look nice for the picture

[sjames]

Since they won't let you smile, you'll need to find another way to look nice in your photo. Some dazzling make-up perhaps?

Paradox

[Penurious Penguin]

I've heard heard rumors of a rogue DOT agent who has pledged to shave all men who do not shave themselves. I think perhaps a clue to this mysterious paradox has been provided by your link. It must be him.

Re:Want to steal? Just smile!

[93 Escort Wagon]

It also makes an interesting imprint on the side of the car you just t-boned.

Smiling illegal

[moonwatcher2001]

When smiling is outlawed only outlaws will smile.

No One is Smiling in Jersey

[Anonymous Coward]

This all reeks of a ruse for the NJ state public relations department to justify why no one in NJ seems happy.

The next step

[marcopo]

is to forbid smiling in public, so that facial recognition software will be able to identify you.

Re:The next step

[Anonymous Coward]

If things continue on this way, frowning may become a genuinely unanimous default. Just think what this could do to the American retail industry!

Counts from Minnesota

[Anonymous Coward]

http://wap.myfoxtwincities.com/w/main/story/67529241/

Out of 11 million licenses scanned, sw flagged 1.3 million and hand checks confirmed 24,000 fraudulent. Note that more than 24k were correctly flagged because some of the non-fraudulent hits were people deliberately presenting a fake appearance (gluing on fake beards, etc just for lulz).

I'm not happy about the false positive rate, but 24000 deliberate succesful attempts to get a fraudulent license is an awful lot that slipped through.

You gotta do

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

what you gotta do.

No stick out your hand so I can insert your career chip.

It's been that way since 9-11

[Anonymous Coward]

They have been doing that in Virginia for a decade now. They need to ID your face when it isn't contorted with buck teeth.

drivers licenses, ss#, and identification FCK'd up

[Anonymous Coward]

This is insane. We shouldn't be forced to identify ourselves to get liberty. Liberty is our right enshrined in the consititon.

This is insane. We shouldn't be forced to identify ourselves to get liberty. Liberty is our right enshrined in the constitution. Requiring identification or a drivers license permanently cripples ones right to liberty as the lack of doing such effectively prevents freedom of movement. Vehicles are critical to transportation in most places. The exception might be cities.

SS# are the same way. If I choose not to get one they've taken away my right to live for all intensive purposes. For the majority there is no way to live without an income.

Penn too

[airos4]

Just went this week. No glasses, hair out of face including long bangs, and no smiles. Head must be at a certain angle, similar to a sample photo they had posted next to the camera.

Re:Penn too

[MitchDev]

Like a mug shot, eh? Guilty until you prove yourself innocent

The next steps

[jvkjvk]

Now, a lot of people have come up with the work around exposed by this mandate - smile when committing a crime.

So the next logical step is to make smiling in public illegal.

Then, they will have less trouble IDing criminals.

Hell, even police officers can ID smiling people.

Perhaps we can then save money by getting rid of the cameras, since criminals are now easy to identify.

QED //or something like that

You are in New Jersey

[Anarchduke]

Why the hell would you be smiling?

What Good?

[jeko]

What good is this SW if it only works under extremely specific circumstances?

Well, for one thing, you can bill the living daylights out of the government agency for providing it. And since each specific circumstance will likely require its own special patch, you have a guaranteed revenue stream for years to come...

And then they came for my beard...

[sabt-pestnu]

So what is next? Force me to shave off my asymmetrical beard because it throws off their software?

Banning Lips?!

[Madster]

> I'm expecting the next phase to involve the banning of facial hair, lips, and any hair that blocks the ears.

No lips, now that would be an interesting requirement indeed...

Re: you can get arrested...

[slashrio]

..for arguing? Where in the law is that written?

Re: hear hear

[slashrio]

yes

Re: you can get arrested...

[MitchDev]

"Disturbing the peace" pretty much every municipality has a law for it

I'm fine with this

[argStyopa]

...as long as it logically is applied to everyone - meaning that burkhas ALSO have to be removed for ID pictures, and no more political-correctness-motivated concessions made.

Re:Want to steal? Just smile!

[lcam]

Who says that you need to run a red-light while speeding? Especially with the face recognition stuff not working...

The risk is that you can get t-boned. Then you get to face the insurance guys but heck, who says that insurance claims are no fun, might as well smile for that too.

Re: you can get arrested...

[slashrio]

"Disturbing the peace" pretty much every municipality has a law for it

I didn't ask about disturbing the peace, I asked if arguing could land you in prison. For me that's something totally different.
To quote webster .com:

argue verb \är-()gyü\ - intransitive verb
1 : to give reasons for or against something : reason
2 : to contend or disagree in words : dispute

Re:No smiles in Ohio -objecting on privacy grounds

[QuesarVII]

You don't have a right to a license. It is a priviledge granted by the government, hence it can have restrictions imposed on it. That now appears to include submitting your photo to facial recognition databases. Don't like it? Don't get a license, passport, or anything else like it.

Whether or not that is "right" is another question, but that's the way the laws work regarding it.

Re: you can get arrested...

[MitchDev]

Yeah, and the DMV drone will tell the cops you are disrupting the function of facility, thereby "disturbing the peace". Enjoy your tazering Bro...

Re: you can get arrested...

[slashrio]

Then the Americans have digged themselves deep into a pile of (fascist) shit for which there is no solution other then the next, very very bloody, revolution. (I'm hinting here at the 1 billion hollow-point bullets that the DHS recently ordered.)

History is written and rewritten by the victors

[Paul Fernhout]

"When you think of it, with things like the Boston tea party and other disruption, I'm sure all the founding father's would be branded terrorists today."

Or as has been attributed to Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

So, if they had lost, they would have been hanged back then, which is essentially the same thing as being branded a terrorist at the time. So, history is written (or rewritten) by the victors:
http://www.weeklyramble.com/culture/history-is-written-by-the-victors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole

Still, the fact is, Canada never revolted against the crown, and they still got independence eventually, and it seems like a great country in a lot of ways. It has universal health care, for example.

British also were willing to free North American slaves during the Revolutionary war:
http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/autumn07/slaves.cfm

By the way, being able to print local currencies is one motivation for the US American Revolution that is rarely talked about:
http://21stcenturycicero.wordpress.com/fraud/how-benjamin-franklin-made-new-england-prosperous/
"Franklin, who was one of the chief architects of the American independence, wrote it clearly: "The Colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been the poverty caused by the bad influence of the English bankers on the Parliament, which has caused in the Colonies hatred of England and the Revolutionary War.""

Those taxes were to pay for the French-and-Indian war, whose costs ultimately proved ruinous to both the British and the French governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War#Consequences

By revolting, the American colonists overall managed to shuck off that war-related tax burden (related to public debt incurred in the UK for empire and conquest) while still gaining the land benefits won in that war by the British from the French and Natives Americans.

Of course, some Native Americans might suggest that they have been fighting terrorism since 1492...
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html
"But too many of the slaves died in captivity. And so Columbus, desperate to pay back dividends to those who had invested, had to make good his promise to fill the ships with gold. In the province of Cicao on Haiti, where he and his men imagined huge gold fields to exist, they ordered all persons fourteen years or older to collect a certain quantity of gold every three months. When they brought it, they were given copper tokens to hang around their necks. Indians found without a copper token had their hands cut off and bled to death.
The Indians had been given an impossible task. The only gold around was bits of dust garnered from the streams. So they fled, were hunted down with dogs, and were killed.
Trying to put together an army of resistance, the Arawaks faced Spaniards who had armor, muskets, swords, horses. When the Spaniards took prisoners they hanged them or burned them to death. Among the Arawaks, mass suicides began, with cassava poison. Infants were killed to save them from the Spaniards. In two years, through murder, mutilation, or suicide, half of the 250,000 Indians on Haiti were dead.
When it became clear that there was no gold left, the Indians were taken as slave labor on huge estates, known later as encomiendas. They were worked at a ferocious pace, and died by the thousands. By

Re: you can get arrested...

[MitchDev]

No kidding, America died when Americans allowed the terrorists to win on 9/11. America's decline went into the fast track after that. The government and it's real owners (CORPORATIONS) were handed a dream that day...